dev1024 - healing magic

[Tazz]

Sad to see that still no cure V for red mage or scholar

[Daniel]

I'll second that

[Seriha]

I'd rather have a unique RDM over going back to the pink mage days.

[Hyrist]

I'd rather have a unique RDM over going back to the pink mage days.

This.

Additionally they said they were trying to find more unique means of assisting curing and support rather than just giving higher tiers of cure around.

[Sygnus]

I agree with the OP. Party dont want redmage and scholar anymore bc of the lack of healing power. Even if our debuff is godlike, no one care :( i had to recycle myself in blackmage to enter seal's party and no i dont want to be whitemage. I like hybrid caster. We dont ask for cure VI we ask for cure V. think about it. We didnt received any new cure since level 48. Forget regeneration 2, we get it too late. And more now they give addle to whitemage... oh not like i care, this spell is useless by most standard. Raise 2??? what a joke. yes great we have another raise... that it.. no one care now of exp lost. No serious, we need CURE V now, not in 8 month at level 99.

Maybe a please can change something? PLEASE!! PLEASE!!

[Bubeeky]

I'm thrilled that they didn't give sch or rdm cure V...back at 75 whm was all but obsolete because rdm and sch could match our cures and were so much better at mp efficiency, then they'd turn around and complain about only ever being asked to main heal parties....I can't even count how many rdm's complained to me about having to main heal meripos :P now we whms have a hold on the top of the healing hill with cure V and everyone else wants it...keep it whm only SE!

[cidbahamut]

If Cure V is the only thing keeping White Mage at the top of the hill then the game has some serious design issues to work out.

[Bubeeky]

not disagreeing there cid, but that's how it is....I for one would be thrilled for rdm and sch to be able to contribute to the healing scene...every other MMO has 3-4 healers easily, but each one brings something unique to the table that the others don't...that's what I'd like to see here, where sch and rdm would get their own unique brand of cures, not just a copy/paste of whm cure V and I think that's what SE is trying to work towards. Besides, SE already said that sch and rdm would not be getting cure V right now, and that they were looking into other options, so it really shouldn't have surprised anyone....

[cidbahamut]

Well the other options generally consist of pre-emptive damage mitigation or healing over time, both of which White Mage has a stranglehold on at the moment. So unless SE is willing to radically alter that, I don't see there being any healing options other than White Mage as we make our way to the 99 cap. It's an issue that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. Doesn't necessarily have to be with Cure V, but that is the most easily recognizable solution to the problem.

Work with me here, how do you see things playing out if Cure V remains exclusive to WHM?

[Bubeeky]

well, one thing that EQ2 did that I liked was reactive cures, where it worked like a buff, and everytime the target got hit, the buff healed them a little bit...sch/rdm could also take on aspects of a time mage, and master the heal over time spells...seeing how sch's thing is spell manipulation, they could also combine the lesser cures with something like a regen effect or something, I dunno...

could also take sch in the route of combat general, since the RP concept is a strategist and give 'em JA's that gave the entire pt a regen/regain/refresh, or give them JA's that were modeled after battle formations some how, to give the pt some kind of bonuses

[DebbieGibson]

Easy fix is to just rework cure formulas so healing skill has a bigger effect on potency

[Hyrist]

Easy fix is to just rework cure formulas so healing skill has a bigger effect on potency

It would have to be pretty severe for a smaller amount of difference.

RDM/SCH or anyone /sch alone starts off at a base B(-?) capped White Magic skill, then you can add cure skill gear that SCH and RDM both have decent amounts in, not to mention the cure potency amount accessible to them.

The problem doesn't lie necessarily in that sort of regulation, as much as it is the vast imbalance between DD/Melee jobs and cure/support jobs. Meaning those support jobs get shoved into the smallest number of slots possible no matter what. If you make RDM or scholar a competent healer on top of whatever else they offer, then WHM ceases to become worthwhile, because curing is the BULK of what they offer, where as RDM and Scholar have their respective nukes buffs and debuffs to fall back on or assist additionally on top of being the designated cure bi-... bot.

If they're not, and the focus is instead placed on making sure their unique contributions are viable enough to possibly bump a DD off the roster depending on what's available, then their healing could be brought up to a decent enough level where it does not outshine what they're supposed to offer as a whole, yet can support or take over LIGHT loads.

However, as it stands now, SCH and RDM can still handle light curing loads, so there's no need for Cure V. And if their contributions help mitigate overall damage, it'll likely stay that way. And in questionable situations, it allows for jobs like Dancers and Blue Mages to shine in their support aspects.

So really there's not much of a strong argument for giving out the spell, except for the desire to bump WHM off the throne as the go-to healer.

[cidbahamut]

So really there's not much of a strong argument for giving out the spell, except for the desire to bump WHM off the throne as the go-to healer.

The problem isn't that it's the go-to healer, the problem is that it's the only healer.

[Xaven]

Raise II, still no Cure V, then give us back our convert for RDM only!!!!!!!

[Ahrana]

This is the problem:


However, as it stands now, WAR/WHM can still handle light curing loads, so there's no need for Cure V. And if their contributions help mitigate overall damage, it'll likely stay that way. And in questionable situations, it allows for jobs like Dancers and Blue Mages to shine in their support aspects.

Stack some MP on a war/whm, and he has the same tools that red mages and scholars have for healing. When SE states that they're trying to make all jobs viable for end game, but they end up making one job completely irreplaceable (whm), and another job a juggernaut (blm), how are red mages and scholars supposed to compete for end game party slots? Right now you may bring a single red mage per alliance if the monster isn't immune to enfeebles, but scholars have to compete with specialists when they focus on healing or nuking because they get incrementally worse as they swap between the two.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What. (letters)

[Hyrist]

The problem isn't that it's the go-to healer, the problem is that it's the only healer.

Only SOLO healer.

Cure loads can be manged by multiple mages/jobs of varying types who have cure capacities.


Stack some MP on a war/whm...

And you wonder why I ask for buffs in the melee and buffing department? In light curing load situations RDM offers little to the table, buffs in both of these aspects would correct that easily.


Right now you may bring a single red mage per alliance if the monster isn't immune to enfeebles, but scholars have to compete with specialists when they focus on healing or nuking because they get incrementally worse as they swap between the two.

Scholar already seems to be getting a better line of unique spells, particularly in the 2hr department. Not only do I expect our enfeebling game to improve for more difficult monsters, and that Scholar get a more unique set of spells to assit with, that's part of my flat out demands in them filling the order they put out with the Manifesto.

Honestly, I have the same policy for us main healing, as people do for Red Mages melee. When it matters, you're not supposed to be the one doing it over a specalist. Only difference is, because you CAN do it safely, you can help out. But I would expect the main role of a RDM would be to support with buffs and enfeeble, tossing out back up cures, status cures, and nukes when available to do so.

But there's no reason to expect RDM to solo heal difficult situations. Either split the duty or invite a WHM and have us support it. We have a specialty and we should be doing that, it just needs to be improved upon.

[Ahrana]

Cure loads can be manged by multiple mages/jobs of varying types who have cure capacities.

Or you could drop all the dead weight, get a whm, bard, and a few DD's and kill twice as many NM's in the same amount of time.

I haven't played anything but white mage when I go out with my LS in over a month simply because it's the backbone of everything end game right now. Once you have a white mage and a few solid DD's you can fill the rest of your alliance with scrubs and window lickers and still be effective.

[Eth]

I support the OP. Right now, RDM is dead as far as abyssea is concerned. Not just second choice, but dead. Tripple-atma powered WHM is all the support that's needed for most situations, and if it isn't enough, then you take two of them. But there is no situation that calls for RDM anymore.

The idea that giving RDM Cure V would de-throne WHM as the most desired and principal choice for healer is just not plausible. Lack of cureskin and cure potency gear would make RDM Cure V gimped compared to WHM cure V. And RDM wouldn't have Cure VI in case a tank requires an urgent, large cure right after you've already cast Cure V.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rdm gets 46% cure potency max, that's not really that lacking, Smn and Whm are the only two that can cap it iirc, 4% from cap isn't really that bad. I could care less if the job is 'dead' in Abyssea, you act as if Rdm is the only job excluded there.

[saevel]

Most career RDM's would prefer a big HoT (Heal over Time) vs Cure V. I'd suggestion something in the 50~100+hp/tick (based on enhancing magic) with a duration of 30s. Would generate the same static hate as Cure V and accomplish much the same without resorting to cure bot status. Give it to SCH also.

Also for your WHM's out there, make it so that your cures have a chance to proc an erase / esuna effect (randomly remove one detrimental status ailment). This would be similar to now, how your status ailments have a chance to proc aoe.

That would make everyone happy, keep WHM as the supreme healer while allowing RDM and SCH to contribute more but not steal the role.

[Raksha]

Also for your WHM's out there, make it so that your cures have a chance to proc an erase / esuna effect (randomly remove one detrimental status ailment). This would be similar to now, how your status ailments have a chance to proc aoe.


Oooooh i like this idea!

[Arioche]

I think a temporary HP spell would be good for RDM, like an over-heal. Similar to how shields work in League of Legends, for those that play. Doesn't necessarily have to heal for a large amount, could be similar to Cure IV, but it's a unique effect. That way we wouldn't be outdoing WHM but would still bring something new and useful to the table.

[Feliciaa]

Give SCH and RDM Cure V would just make having a WHM almost pointless like it was pre-abyssea. I think the design team has the right idea with improving RDMs enfeebling/buffing ability and having SCH focus more on its DoTs/magic atks.

[Quetzacoatl]

Most career RDM's would prefer a big HoT (Heal over Time) vs Cure V. I'd suggestion something in the 50~100+hp/tick (based on enhancing magic) with a duration of 30s. Would generate the same static hate as Cure V and accomplish much the same without resorting to cure bot status. Give it to SCH also.

Also for your WHM's out there, make it so that your cures have a chance to proc an erase / esuna effect (randomly remove one detrimental status ailment). This would be similar to now, how your status ailments have a chance to proc aoe.

That would make everyone happy, keep WHM as the supreme healer while allowing RDM and SCH to contribute more but not steal the role.

God, this so much. I am so tired of all the QQing for Cure 5 today, it's not funny.

[SpankWustler]

Give SCH and RDM Cure V would just make having a WHM almost pointless like it was pre-abyssea.

I don't understand where this idea started. Yes, there was a time when White Mage was only particularly useful for certain fights and competent healers were mostly interchangeable.

Some dude at SE noticed this, some changes were made, and henceforth White Mage has had a powerful Stoneskin attached to it's cures and many new tools to battle status ailments. On top of that, there are pieces of the Orison set which give White Mage huge bonuses to cure spells.

White Mage isn't the same job it was in 2005, and that's not even getting into how much harder any NM that matters can hit now.

It wouldn't soften my healing protuberance one bit if Red Mage and Scholar and Paladin and whatever else had access to Cure V, and I really have to wonder what most people do on White Mage since this is such a common statement.

That said, something like Cure 4 and 1/2 with a strong Regen effect would be much more suited to how Scholar and Red Mage work and their lore. I'm sure people who play those jobs would prefer that solution as well. The idea that giving other jobs Cure V would break White Mage somehow is way off, though.

[Raksha]

Give SCH and RDM Cure V would just make having a WHM almost pointless like it was pre-abyssea. I think the design team has the right idea with improving RDMs enfeebling/buffing ability and having SCH focus more on its DoTs/magic atks.

ITT: Only good thing about WHM is cure5.

If WHM sucks so bad, why don't you play SCH or RDM?


.....see what I did there?

[TRiPP]

You know, now that you mention it. Since White Mages are clearly taking Cureskin for granted. (Let's face it. Most were complaining about Cure V breaking White Mage if given to another job.) Then take it away from White Mage and give it to Red Mage and hell even Scholar. Then you can keep your high tier Cures. Cause let's face it. You want to have both but eventually you're going to lose one or the other. So I'd suggest you choose and enjoy both before either is given to another job.

On top of that, claiming Cure V if given to another job would make it less efficient would leave White Mage in the back burner is ridiculous and preposterous in every meaning of those two words. You still have Cureskin, which if you ask me is still better than say a Red Mage with Cure V or Scholar. (Because of the small damage mitigation that you get from it, allowing you to take more hits in the end.) Where as just a simple Cure V or even any other Cure wouldn't offer such a thing. Then again, I suppose it's a White Mage's world and we're all just living in it. Get off your high horse, White Mage could only be replaced by another White Mage. 2005 was a different story, this is 2011. Where even your rings have cure potency only available to White mage. (Okay, not really exaggerating) So to claim that something as simple as a Cure V could make you as useless as Bubbleman is pointless. Try again with another valid argument. Such as if your protectra/shellra/barspells/haste were revoked. Then perhaps you'd have something valid. However as it stands with Cureskin and whatever tier Cure you decide to use it will still grant damage mitigation (depending on the cure mind you, and even if it's a cure one, it still grants some sort of damage mitigation even if it's by a small amount.) Again something that's not accessible to other jobs.

However, the high Regen based on enhancing skill does sound like a rather nice one. However, I fear that if we were to get that. White mages everywhere would QQ and SE would hand it to them on a silver platter. (Speaking of handing things to WHM's.) 'The hell are you doing with our Addle? In fact 'the hell are you doing with Regen family? It's enhancing, not healing, as well as our paralyze, our slow, as well as our other goodies?


Meanwhile in a more logical perspective. ^ This is how I react to people who think Red Mage/Scholar would break them if they were to get Cure V. Throwing out weird accusations as if it were still 2005, if that's the case then tell me why is it that warriors now sub /sam as opposed to /nin. Like they use to? I can't stress this enough. Times have changed, get use to it.

Also, next Abysea White Mage I meet that hastes instead of cures. I'm going to punch in the mouth.
(Done it before, and I'll do it again.)

[Ahrana]

Give SCH and RDM Cure V would just make having a WHM almost pointless like it was pre-abyssea. I think the design team has the right idea with improving RDMs enfeebling/buffing ability and having SCH focus more on its DoTs/magic atks.

The thing that amuses me the most about this quote is that my linkshell almost always needed me to come white mage to events pre-abyssea, unless they were in dire need of sleepga II. As far as I can remember white mages have always been needed in end game fights, with the occasional exception of low man HNM's that a high evasion tank and some major enfeebling could handle. Even in those situations white mages were still wanted because it gave the evasion tank some breathing room on hate.

The only thing white mages weren't used for was meriting, and that only lasted until /sch hit the scene.

[Daniel]

Give SCH and RDM Cure V would just make having a WHM almost pointless like it was pre-abyssea. I think the design team has the right idea with improving RDMs enfeebling/buffing ability and having SCH focus more on its DoTs/magic atks.

They didn't improve our enfeebling/buffing ability we got 0 enfeebles, whm gained one of our enfeebles and we got 1 useless buff. It won't be active with accession and it will be self target only... RDM basically got 15 minutes of fun and then back to the black list.

I can tell you right now that my rdm will never cure as effectivly as my whm I have 50% potency with cureskin body among other things. Alone that is >>> than a 40% potency with no cureskin that my rdm will get. Average DD is easily running upwards of 1600 hp these days and cure IV just does not cut it, even for back line support... period.

[Zatias]

Dumb WHM curebots thinking Cure V is the only thing keeping their job alive.

[Feliciaa]

Say sch and Rdm got cure 5. What would be the reason to bring a whm? Rdm and sch both have access to much better mp conservation tools and both can deal with buffs. Also, se has clearly stated they are adjusting enfeebling magic. Rdm's should focus on coming up with more ways to improve on their enfeebling instead of trying to one up WHM. IMO.

[cidbahamut]

You really have no clue do you?

[Feliciaa]

That is not an answer to my question but good try. :)

[DebbieGibson]

Say sch and Rdm got cure 5. What would be the reason to bring a whm? Rdm and sch both have access to much better mp conservation tools and both can deal with buffs. Also, se has clearly stated they are adjusting enfeebling magic. Rdm's should focus on coming up with more ways to improve on their enfeebling instead of trying to one up WHM. IMO.

Dumb post is dumb.

[Bubeeky]

it's not dumb it's how it was before, that's what scares us whms...rdms and schs had decent cures at 75 and we whms went the way of the buffalo because we couldn't keep up with mp....we now have a good hold on the cure situation, and we like it like that. Plus I remember countless rdms and schs coming to me pissed because all they got asked to do in pt's is main heal even though there were decent whms looking for pt's....instead of pushing for a copy/paste of whm's stuff, try pushing for more unique stuff for sch and rdm....like a healing helix or a reactive cure, where every time the target gets hit, the buff heals him for...I dunno...100 hp?

Besides, since when is curing all that sch and rdm have wanted to be good at anyway?

[Duelle]

Dumb WHM curebots thinking Cure V is the only thing keeping their job alive.Try to read between the lines and see some of us saying "good riddance" at not being #1 on the list of healers to call on.

That being said, no, Cure V is not necessary. I'd be more for a HoT before Cure V would ever be in consideration.

[Soranika]

I had a long post to type up but I kinda scratched it. Outside of abyssea, Cure V isn't even needed. Inside abyssea.... so what if no one is picking RDM over WHM for the healing spot? Last I heard, RDM HATED being asked to main heal or even back up support. Plus, RDM do not have full light magic proc (or black magic for that matter). It's honestly one of those things where I really want to say suck it up and join the club of 'inferior jobs' for many activities that has been going on for years.

[Reaux]

RDM and SCH were never supposed to be as good or better at their respective jobs than the originators. While giving Cure V to both of those classes and it ending WHM is debatable, in all it isn't necessary and would put them very close to WHM in a Curing only capacity. RDM was designed for Enfeebles/Enchancing and melee support as a main stay. The heals and nukes were there to assist in cases where the party needed a little extra healing and the nukes for when melee might not be the best option. But the player base screams at the idea of a RDM doing anything outside of refresh/haste/cure.

SCH was more the magey of the hybrids, it was designed to support all the mage classes, but still hold its own in casting....and it can.

If anything both of those classes should be calling for more unique spells instead of asking for ones in game already. An extra HoT or reactive cure as mention before for RDM sounds amazing and useful: it would give them something that is their own and allow for more support. SCH has tons of options for making its cures and buffs more powerful via stratagems and helix spells. adding and higher tier Cure to it won't make it more unique....just another healer. Don't you want a more unique and dynamic role?

[Cymmina]

Say sch and Rdm got cure 5. What would be the reason to bring a whm? Rdm and sch both have access to much better mp conservation tools and both can deal with buffs. Also, se has clearly stated they are adjusting enfeebling magic. Rdm's should focus on coming up with more ways to improve on their enfeebling instead of trying to one up WHM. IMO.

Orison Pantaloons +2. I can Curaga IV until the bluffalos come home and still have full MP. On top of that, I can get Sublimation/Light Arts/Conserve MP or the inferior Refresh/Convert from subjobs. Banishga III and Hexa Strike pretty much solidifies my spot in any Abyssea party worth mentioning.

Do you know how frustrating it is to spam Cure III and Cure IV back to back as fast as you can and barely keep your target out of the orange? It used to be WHM > SCH > RDM > SMN as far as healers went. Now it's WHM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SCH > RDM or SMN. The only thing keeping SCH ahead of RDM and SMN is Rapture and Aurorastorm, and SCH has always been kept in check by the amount of enmity they generate (Rapture+Cure IV followed up by some tier5s? SCH is going to be tanking). SMN at least offers Earthen Armor and Crimson Inferno, which are light years ahead of buffs like Phalanx, Enspells, or lolAdloquium.

[DebbieGibson]

Apparent the people saying whm played 2nd fiddle to rdm never did anything more than merit.

[TRiPP]

Currently as it is Cure V is a hot topic with Red Mage. The fact still remains that we got shafted on a healing spell. It doesn't matter who or what hates to main heal. (To be honest, I end up main healing in events because our White Mages sucked horrendously) and that's putting it nicely. So having something to fall back on would be nice. However as most of us can see that some people are still living in 2005, again I'm partial to the high Regen based on our enhancing skill so that it means a damn again.

Until then Cure V would suffice then when SE implements this other means to an alternate Cure, Cure V could easily be removed. (I'm sure most of us have WHM leveled to that degree at least, so it's not as if we'd be getting overly screwed if we lost Cure V and gained a decent Regen.)

Still with White Mage getting bumped off it's high horse with another job getting Cure V, it wouldn't happen. (This coming from a RDM Main and as a WHM as well.) Those who are assuming that WHM would lose it's throne as a top healer if another job gained Cure V, are either horribly White Mages themselves and forget to use the tools implemented with their jobs or have horribly White Mages running around with them. If you haven't noticed the buffs that Afflatus Solace and Afflatus Misery grant you/us.* (* For those of us who have RDM and WHM) Whereas Afflatus Solace grants White Mage's Cure (Any of them) a small bit of damage mitigation, if not a decent amount depending on the Cure and how much is recovered. Afflatus Misery grants a bonus to Esuna, whereas it removes more detrimental debuffs off of players. Judging by no mention of these tools or even a second thought that you're taking them for granted. Shame really.

So please, before throwing wild accusations. At least play both jobs and then reassess the situation.
I'm up for the high Regen. However, it's not implemented.

[Dydy]

Me i'll say one thing, i have rdm and whm lvl upped, whm is cool in abyssea because ppl have hp boost, all ppl are taking dmg, need to cure fast, and you have atma for save your mp, but out of abyssea i keep thinking rdm is the best healer, you wont really go out of mp you'll always have Refresh II,, whm wont have it out of abyssea, a lot of ppl are using only cure V or VI, most the of the new whm are doing that, but all good and old player will know rdm is the best healer out of abyssea, good mp, (i'm a lil hume i can up to 1k mp out of abyssea, refresh 9 mp per tick with the good items) so out of abyssea if you have a rdm for healer you are supposed to be able to stay alive longer no ?

[Dydy]

But it's sure a lil cure V would be nice for abyssea :P (^.^) (really ? RAISE TWO ON RDM ? naaaa <_<)

[saevel]

@Tripp you don't want Cure V trust me, it'll cement you permanently as the back line cure / haste b1tch forever. You don't want a return to the days of "pink mage", its the worst thing that could happen to RDM again.

[DebbieGibson]

MP efficiency is not now and was not at 75 the main concern in anything but merits and plowman.

[Cymmina]

@Tripp you don't want Cure V trust me, it'll cement you permanently as the back line cure / haste b1tch forever. You don't want a return to the days of "pink mage", its the worst thing that could happen to RDM again.

Being able to save someone with a ~900 hp cure would be a horrible thing, I totally agree. I mean, casting Cure IV and watching them die before I can follow-up with a Cure III is pretty cool.

Enhancing magic other than Haste and Shell needs to be worth casting. Enhancing, you remember? That other thing RDMs are supposed to be good at. A SCH who has every scrap of +Enhancing gear available can make Phalanx reduce damage taken by -33 (assuming the formula and my math is correct). That's like pissing in the ocean compared to damage dealt by today's high end NMs. No one bothers with Phalanx outside of Cleaving/Whiskering or Salvage because it's just more efficient to cure through it.

[Kuvo]

I've been playing RDM since the game was released in the fall of 2003 in NA and I'll tell you that I am glad we didn't get Cure5. The only reason why is that it WILL put us back into the healer role like it was before abyssea. I'm with most of you that SE needs to add a spell or 2 that adds some kind of Cure over Time or temp bonus affect or whatever. What I would like to see tho is what SE has planned when they say they are making RDM's role as a party enhancer better and our enfeebles stronger. They should also make it so that our enfeebles are needed to defeat certain NMs. Inside abyssea and outside. Our enhancing and enfeebling needs to be more of a party NEED then a "well it's nice to have but we don't need it" Similar to how every party needs a tank, plain and simple. Even if it's a thf evasion tanking... it's still a tank.

If SE just makes those areas we excel at as a party need for most Exping, NM, or whatever then we might stand a chance in the lvl 99 endgame.

[Zatias]

Enfeebling is RDM's strongpoint, but that doesn't matter when the majority of NMs have an extreme resistance or even immunity to enfeebles. I hope this changes at the final cap.

Yes Cure V should be handed out to RDM and SCH. It still wont replace WHM, it will make them comfortable substitutes when the WHM is incapacitated = good support. Aren't RDM and SCH supposed to be supportive? Cure 4 spam is counter-supportive in a way. It yanks enmity between players and over time you will find the mob taking an interest to eating your face. What's that? Now you have to waste MP on the RDM or SCH to heal them.

If you WHMs still think that Cure V is your only hold on the top of the hill then learn to play WHM. And RDM and SCH who think they will be healing only or a "ghetto whm" you wont be, especially if they fix enfeebling magic vs NMs.

[Ahrana]

it's not dumb it's how it was before, that's what scares us whms...rdms and schs had decent cures at 75 and we whms went the way of the buffalo because we couldn't keep up with mp....we now have a good hold on the cure situation, and we like it like that. Plus I remember countless rdms and schs coming to me pissed because all they got asked to do in pt's is main heal even though there were decent whms looking for pt's...

You're making stuff up Bubeeky.

1. White mages have always been wanted end game because cure IV generates too much hate, especially in long fights.
2. Scholars have never been wanted over white mages because they lack haste. I've never heard of scholars being invited to bird camps back at 75 over white mages, which is why they always ended up at the pudding camps with the black mages.
3. There's only one explaination (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svwGRJA28lY) that makes sense why they decided to give red mages and scholars raise spells to address the healing gap between them and white mages.

[TRiPP]

@saevel I keep hearing "Pink mage." To be honest, so what? It just makes the rest of your party survive should I say when it lacks a white mage. However, I doubt that it would staple you to the back support should we say, they improved our meleeing quite a bit, at least if anything noticeable. However, as it stands our meleeing is a joke. So why not be efficient at something at least? Or do we not want to be efficient at anything? Is that the case? Our enfeebling is a joke in most cases, our elemental is a joke in most cases, and our healing as well. Our enhancing well, that's just lol to begin with. Unless Phalanx gets a total fix of making it a percentage instead of direct damage. It's rather lol. White Mage has a strangle hold on Barspells. As it occasionally nullifies damage. So what do we have? If nothing spectacular if that nothing at all?

I understand all the rage about meleeing, but to be honest unless they improve several things on that note for Red Mage, I see as being useless in the long run. Temper may increase double attack, but unless if it's something noticeable and it adds the trait to jobs that don't have it. It'll still make you as useless as we are. So, the choice is well not really yours, nor mine, except for SE's. If they want to kill off Red Mages because we can't get anything useful to even make our job unique, then what's the point? There isn't. In b4 "We'll give you something awesome, but... we're also going to give it to White Mage. K?"
Convert was our thing, now everyone can utilize it, Refresh was our thing now everyone can utilize it. Addle was ours to begin with, now White Mage gets it? Really? Inb4 "WELL WE SAW IT WHEN WE WERE DATA MINING." I could care less. What your data mining has seen. Point is, Red Mage needs things to make it stand out and as does Scholar, something that's for those jobs and not whored out to White Mage or every other Mage job.

The options for Melee Rage Mage are simple, allow us to merit Fast Cast and Composure. Composure could grant us high tiered Weapon Skills, as well as accuracy, haste and subtle blow. (Each merit would increase/add a certain percentage.)
Make enhancing mean a damn thing again, change the direct damage from Phalanx to percentage negated. Make enhancing make En-spells become decent. We're hitting the 95-99 marker. We should at least if anything in the minimal be able to make en-spells STICK out.

As for the guy who came up with Pink Mage, that's a fairly creative nickname for a Red Mage who can heal. However, it's either Pink mage or retard with a stick. Your choice. I don't see people calling Dark Knight with Monk sub jobs Dark Monks. Or Warriors known as Wank because Retaliation is a form of counterstance. (Either way you look at it, it is a form of countering.) Tell you what, we can revisit the Meleeing and front line when Red Mage gets a spell for Subtle blow and a native Vorpal Blade and anything else that comes with that territory. In b4 sub warrior lololol. You would have to be rather MP efficient. On top of that why the hell should we have to sub warrior to use something that should natively be ours?

Whatever you can point out that we as Red Mage's have for us, there's always someone, somewhere out there that can debunk it. It's just that simple.

[Ahrana]

Honestly pink mage has been around since 2004, although back then it was a rdm/whm. Specifically, a redmage who focused on enfeebling, healing, and curing status over nuking with /blm.

To be fair though it's been a pretty elastic term over the years.

[Stylin]

I don't even understand what the fuss about Addle is. The spell isn't exactly a game changer.

[Zatias]

RDM is supposed to enfeeble more than nuke. Not a very strong point XD

[TRiPP]

Red Mage our forte was enfeebling, most NM resist our crap or outright immune to our enfeebles. Blind? can't use that, it's ineffective, Slow? Can't do that either it's immune. Paralyze? Immune. Oh but it casts magic, let's cast Addle. <_>; Even if it doesn't really do much difference except just slow the mob's casting enough to be interruptable in *some* cases. Then again, some NMs just have that whole "Hay guyz, I didn't use chainspell but I'm going to fast cast left and right just bcuz i can lulz arent u jelouz."

[saevel]

Honestly pink mage has been around since 2004, although back then it was a rdm/whm. Specifically, a redmage who focused on enfeebling, healing, and curing status over nuking with /blm.

To be fair though it's been a pretty elastic term over the years.

Except RDM never "Enfeebled" even then. It was
Haste
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Cure IV
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Cure IV
Haste
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CureIV
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CureIV

Haste
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Haste
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And that about summed up RDM as the rest of the world saw them. Trying to do ANYTHING outside that got you yelled at. Throw out a nuke and the PT leader yells that you should use that MP to cure him, pull out a sword and you get booted and ridiculed. Enfeebles .... nobody cared, ever.

Stop trying to put it out like RDM used to play as some sort of hybrid, that is not what happened. We were WHM-2 because a group couldn't get a WHM. Then later once ToAU came out and it was melee friendly, we were used as WHM-2 because the group didn't need a WHM and figured with convert, refresh, haste and Cure IV they could pack more DD power and just use us as healer alone.

At NO point in time prior to abyssea was RDM ever looked at as a nuker, enfeebler, or anything outside of a Haste / Refresh / Cure robot. Want to know why RDM isn't popular inside abyssea, it's not that we don't have things to offer, its that the groups can't put us in as a WHM-2 for Haste / Refresh / Cure V support. This is solely due to Cure IV not being strong enough to main heal on. The moment RDM can cast Cure V, you'll be thrown back in as a WHM-2 main healer and never allowed to leave. But all of you asking for Cure V already know this, and you have no intentions of actually playing the job. Instead you want it so that you can use someone else's RDM to main heal your group when you can't find a WHM. Or you'll use it to get yourselves into abyssea groups to get the +1/+2 items for your BST, BLU, DRK, PUP, SMN or other job that wouldn't normally get picked.

This is from someone who's been playing this job since before we got Refresh, Convert, Gravity, Dispel or Phalanx.

[Salvation]

I suppose the obvious solution here is to give RDM and SCH access to Cure V while under the effects of visitant status. Seeing as the majority of the complaints tend to focus on healing inside Abyssea this solution should make everyone happy.

[SpankWustler]

Say sch and Rdm got cure 5. What would be the reason to bring a whm?

Nobody else answered this seriously because it might as well be "Magnets! How do they work?!" but I guess I will.

A 300-400 HP stoneskin effect from Cure V and Cure VI, the ability to cast Cure V and Cure VI back to back when things are really bad, the strongest Shell effect in the game often supplemented by the strongest appropriate bar-spell, slightly superior status effect removal, vastly superior AoE cures when such a thing is applicable, Auspice in some situations, Esuna in some situations, Sacrifice in some situations, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.

Please stop using a merit party in 2006 to gauge how jobs work across all of FFXI in 2011.

[DebbieGibson]

What is this BS about rdm not being unique? Abyssea has royally fucked up people's ideas about this game. Back at 75, having 330+ enfeebling skill was enough to be unique.

[Duelle]

Except RDM never "Enfeebled" even then.

Haste
Refresh
CureIV

And that about summed up RDM as the rest of the world saw them. Trying to do ANYTHING outside that got you yelled at. Throw out a nuke and the PT leader yells that you should use that MP to cure him, pull out a sword and you get booted and ridiculed. Enfeebles .... nobody cared, ever.Glad to see I'm not the only one who still remembers this. Was beginning to wonder if certain people around here were being selectively amnesiac or whether they really forgot what RDM play was like back then. The WHM-2 bit is spot on, too. It was used to fill the gap left in the pool of healers, and once endurance entered the game in the way of Refresh and Convert, it was bye-bye WHM for a notable span of time.

[Daniel]

make is so whms can't cast refresh and convert, give me an enfeeble worth casting and I won't ask for cure V.

[cidbahamut]

Except RDM never "Enfeebled" even then. It was
Haste
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Cure IV
Haste
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Cure IV
Haste
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CureIV
Haste
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CureIV
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CureIV

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So we're back to citing merit parties and/or terrible Red Mages as the core foundations of the argument against giving Red Mage additional tools that would assist party performance and help balance out the death-grip White Mage has on the role of healer? Because seriously, there are twenty jobs in this game and you want me to believe that it's perfectly fine to have exactly one of them capable of performing the duties of healer, which is just silly.

[TRiPP]

Let it be known that past experiences will guide your opinions of future updates, regardless of how much things have changed.

[Feliciaa]

HoT spells would be a great way to deal with this issue instead of giving Rdm cure 5. That way whm is still hands down the best healer regardless of mp conservation and rdm can now some what keep ppl alive.

[Quetzacoatl]

You know, I keep hearing about the whole cureskin argument when backing up WHM in its curing power over RDM, and let me say...

If RDM were to get Cure 5, who cares if they can even get a stoneskin effect or not as long as they have the MP regeneration to support the person's HP bar? What would there be to worry about as long as they have 11MP/Refresh in both gear, AF3+2 Legs and Refresh 2 Spell, along with the extra Minikin Monstrosity Atma inside Abyssea (an additional 10 MP refresh)? That's 21 MP/Tic if you don't have a Subligar with Refresh+1. Then it would be 22 MP/Tic, and you would already have regained half of the MP cost of Cure 5 in just three seconds over the base recast time Cure 5 has. In 6 seconds flat that's approximately 132 MP returned.

I should also add that this would take /SCH's MP conservation to newer heights with Light Arts up and SCH's Conserve MP Trait running through as a Subjob. That's 33 MP (rounded down) shaved off when it kicks in. So effectively you could almost NEVER run out of MP spamming Cure 5.

Not to mention, with the cherry on top, Atma of the Rescuer would stack on top of a decent Cure Potency set with that Cure Potency+10%, on top of a Fast Cast effect (8~10%) to keep the target's remaining amount of HP topped long enough to, again, keep the MP Flow going. And IF we were to get our enfeebles to work come the next update, we'd already be doing what WHMs were already doing in Abyssea with Tier 1 Paralyze and Slow. We'd just be in their shoes again, just with a load of Refresh on our backs. =\

Oh, and don't tell me Cure 5 will be just as good outside for RDM. Cure 4's there for that, and Cure 6 to WHM is Cure 5 for RDM in that instance- It would be far too powerful to even be MP-efficient before Abyssea.

Square-Enix, I would advise you to look into the regen line of spells and create something based off a mix of Cures and Regen for Red Mage. Kind of like what you did with Helix/Kaustra, except for Enhancing Magic.

[saevel]

As I've said before, those advocating for "Just give RDM Cure V" have no intention of playing the job. They only care about two things, one being that they have a replacement for WHM as a main healer, and the other being that they can use RDM to get gear for their "real" undesired jobs. RDM and BRD has historically suffered from the bandwagon mentality, with people jumping on to use it as an easy ride into HNM shells and eventually merit parties (once merits were invented). And every since Abyssea became popular these people have since used WHM, BLM and NIN to accomplish the same thing. This is evidenced at the ridiculous price jumps in all the WHM / BLM / NIN spells, especially the yellow proc ones.

I'd prefer that SCH got access to Cure V under addendum white and SE just give RDM the rest of the Regen spells and a special RDM only super regen. We don't need to be replacing WHM's as main healers, we need to be supporting them.

[SpankWustler]

So effectively you could almost NEVER run out of MP spamming Cure 5.

Inside Abyssea, this is true of pretty much any job casting pretty much anything. Well, excluding a Dark Knight casting Impact or a Black Mage cycling through expensive proc spells as fast as possible.

I agree that giving each job with support elements a unique solution to the issue of "People be losing HP, brosef!" would be best, though. White Mage has brute-force HP restoration, Scholar could have Humpty Hump's Healing Helix, and Red Mage could have Stoneskin II and some other enhancing magic to prevent HP loss in the first place.

They could all work together to heal people optimally when in a party or alliance and in their free time they could form Captain Planet.

For something that's generally difficult and requires 6+ people to do efficiently, such as VoidWatch, White Mage being the only viable healer works fine. Having exactly one healer that works in Abyssea, which is very laid-back content otherwise, is kind of lame.

Other jobs receiving Cure V would be a really boring solution and far from my first choice, but I'd be okay with it compared to the current situation.

[Quetzacoatl]

I hear you on that one, Spank. As someone else said:


We don't need to be replacing WHM's as main healers, we need to be supporting them.

[cidbahamut]

HoT spells would be a great way to deal with this issue instead of giving Rdm cure 5. That way whm is still hands down the best healer regardless of mp conservation and rdm can now some what keep ppl alive.
Except not really. When a monster swings and puts people in the red and you need them back up to at least yellow right away, Cure IV and even a Regen IV isn't going to cut it. The only way healing over time could make up the deficiency is if it was so monstrously powerful that it had White Mages in a fit over us stealing their Regen thunder. I'm talking hundreds of hp per tic, lasts more than a couple seconds kind of healing over time. I'm not sure that would be at all permissible from a game balance perspective.


You know, I keep hearing about the whole cureskin argument when backing up WHM in its curing power over RDM, and let me say...

If RDM were to get Cure 5, who cares if they can even get a stoneskin effect or not as long as they have the MP regeneration to support the person's HP bar? What would there be to worry about as long as they have 11MP/Refresh in both gear, AF3+2 Legs and Refresh 2 Spell, along with the extra Minikin Monstrosity Atma inside Abyssea (an additional 10 MP refresh)? That's 21 MP/Tic if you don't have a Subligar with Refresh+1. Then it would be 22 MP/Tic, and you would already have regained half of the MP cost of Cure 5 in just three seconds over the base recast time Cure 5 has. In 6 seconds flat that's approximately 132 MP returned.

One tic is equal to three seconds.

Please don't use incorrect math to confuse people like this.

You're only going to get back at most 44 mp over those six seconds, and that's only if you don't cast anything else during that time.

[cidbahamut]

As I've said before, those advocating for "Just give RDM Cure V" have no intention of playing the job.
Do you really believe this?

[Reaux]

Except not really. When a monster swings and puts people in the red and you need them back up to at least yellow right away, Cure IV and even a Regen IV isn't going to cut it. The only way healing over time could make up the deficiency is if it was so monstrously powerful that it had White Mages in a fit over us stealing their Regen thunder. I'm talking hundreds of hp per tic, lasts more than a couple seconds kind of healing over time. I'm not sure that would be at all permissible from a game balance perspective.


One tic is equal to three seconds.

Please don't use incorrect math to confuse people like this.

You're only going to get back at most 44 mp over those six seconds, and that's only if you don't cast anything else during that time.

RDM and SCH are support classes get over it. They were never made to be just as good healers or nukers as their respective counter parts. Their strength comes from which subs they choose and how they support the party as a whole. So youre Cure IV is weaker...you have 2 choices use a Helix to make your spell stronger, or keep Regen-ga up on party members so the WHM can focus on other buffs and supporting the tank.

As RDM you can refresh the WHM to let them use higher Cure's in quick succession while you top people off they can''t get to immediately. But this is all providing you want those job to be healers and forget their other abilities and duties. Because certain pieces of equipment give bonus if aligned with the right weather, yay for helix. SCH can also help tanks keep hate by increasing emnity gain. RDM is still the only job with Tier 2 enfeebles that can land consistently on HNMs and has an easy and simple way to change a mobs resistance with Enspells.

[Quetzacoatl]

One tic is equal to three seconds.

Please don't use incorrect math to confuse people like this.

You're only going to get back at most 44 mp over those six seconds, and that's only if you don't cast anything else during that time.

Gah, touché on that one. My point is though, the target's HP will be able to be sustained long enough with cure 5 to be able to refresh that MP back, including the conserve MP proc and light arts savings, considering your tank is decent enough to sustain himself for that long.

Therefore, with Slow II and Paralyze II in effect, we would still retain the mana battery title for curing. This is also considering you're doing nothing else- just Haste, Temper and Cure 5, over and over and over. That shit is boring, you can count me out of it.

[Zatias]

RDM and SCH are support classes get over it.
Yes they are.


Cure V should be handed out to RDM and SCH. It still wont replace WHM, it will make them comfortable substitutes when the WHM is incapacitated = good support. Aren't RDM and SCH supposed to be supportive? Cure 4 spam is counter-supportive in a way. It yanks enmity between players and over time you will find the mob taking an interest to eating your face. What's that? Now you have to waste MP on the RDM or SCH to heal them.

If you WHMs still think that Cure V is your only hold on the top of the hill then learn to play WHM. And RDM and SCH who think they will be healing only or a "ghetto whm" you wont be, especially if they fix enfeebling magic vs NMs.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Im extremly upset too, whm should not get addle, and sch should not get raise3, or rdm raise 2 - whm only job is to cure, not half-ass dd like a rdm or nuke like a sch so thats why no cure 5 for sch or rdm. I know this isnt the black magic forum but quickly, breakga is basiclly a weaker version of stunaga, since break rarely processes vs. stun on nm. Its helpful but i'd rather stunaga, thank you.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Im extremly upset too, whm should not get addle, and sch should not get raise3, or rdm raise 2 - whm only job is to cure, not half-ass dd like a rdm or nuke like a sch so thats why no cure 5 for sch or rdm. I know this isnt the black magic forum but quickly, breakga is basiclly a weaker version of stunaga, since break rarely processes vs. stun on nm. Its helpful but i'd rather stunaga, thank you.

WHM is the best job to cure, they are NOT the only ones that can cure however.

RDM are the Enfeeblers but the spells are passed to EVERY job that's not logical if they go by your theory.
RDM are the Magical Enhancers (apparently) yet have no special spells that WHM can't do better again doesn't make sense.

As for Stunga there is absolutely NO reason to add it, if you need to stun multiple people it's because of the danger, one second break from Stun is NOT better than ~30 seconds from Breakga.

[Hyrist]

Really this argument isn't so much about whether or not RDM and SCH should get Cure V so much as it's an argument on whether or not they should be adequate 'Primary' Healers.

To which my answer to that is a flat no for many reasons.

Putting aside any debate as to the course of the job and the Melee aspects of RDM, the most important reason I do not see Sch nor Rdm as classes who should become solo healers is due to the number of other hybrid classes in the game as it stands.

Too much right now do players seek to standardize specific roles to one job. You see this in how people try to establish pecking orders such as who's the best DD, when each job has unique utilities and functions that allow them to be more variant than the bread and butter playstyle.

With capasities in jobs such as Blue Mage and Dancer to be able to heal, there is no true insentive to try to force more 'primary healers' in the game. Stated plainly, the duty can, and in my opinion, should be split. The ToAU concept of pushing healing and support aspects on as few slots as possible to maximize damage output was seen by me as a failure of concept, especially considering the job that fell into that one slot more often than not, was NOT the healing specialist.

As far as pecking order goes I believe SE has finally gotten it right. White Mage is the go-to specialist on healing, and the rest of the jobs have varying lesser degrees of healing they can provide to either assist a white mage in healing, or to split the duty among themselves while providing their primary roles to the party still.

The reason why Cure V has become a symbol on this matter is because it provides the big, one shot healing that serves as a major hamper against specific cure-possessing jobs, such as Scholar and Red Mage when they do not posses it. To which I say simply, instead of trying to rely on one or the other, invite them both, or some other hybrid variant.

Dancer, Blue Mage, Puppetmaster, Summoner, Paladin, Dragoon, Scholar and Red Mage all can provide some HP recovery to other members of the party on a regular basis, to varying degrees. Many combinations of the two of them are sufficient enough to handle the healing load for most general purposes. There's no reason why they cannot be made use of... and really, SHOULD be made use of more often. The curing shortage people are expriencing should encourage more variant groups, to accompany Offense Defense and Support, instead of searching for a single sole healer who shoulders both the burden and the blame more or less on their own.

White Mage has the incredible curing potential to handle this with minimal support, but that is because that is the job's primary function. Instead of trying to create more jobs to compete on this function, each of the other jobs listed above, as well as other jobs in general should get more tools to help assist those who do manage the cure, and to lighten up the burden on HP recovery. That way we encourage a more variant base instead of the constant shifting to whatever is the current 'best' so often.

As far as Cure V itself, it really depends on how far and away WHM stays ahead. I like this distance they have. If we're to catch up on being capable support jobs, I want to see that improvement thrown to our Enfeebles and Enhancing magic first. Cure V is not the quick fix Scholar or RDM needs.

[SpankWustler]

RDM and SCH are support classes get over it. They were never made to be just as good healers or nukers as their respective counter parts. Their strength comes from which subs they choose and how they support the party as a whole. So youre Cure IV is weaker...you have 2 choices use a Helix to make your spell stronger, or keep Regen-ga up on party members so the WHM can focus on other buffs and supporting the tank.

As RDM you can refresh the WHM to let them use higher Cure's in quick succession while you top people off they can''t get to immediately. But this is all providing you want those job to be healers and forget their other abilities and duties. Because certain pieces of equipment give bonus if aligned with the right weather, yay for helix. SCH can also help tanks keep hate by increasing emnity gain. RDM is still the only job with Tier 2 enfeebles that can land consistently on HNMs and has an easy and simple way to change a mobs resistance with Enspells.

You don't understand what Red Mage and Scholar are actually capable of, the potency of their spells and abilities, or even what Scholar's basic abilities are called, and for that reason neither one should become a viable (but still second best) healer? Okay!

Hyrist, I do agree with your idea of how things should ideally work.

I don't think that's the case right now, though. With adequate MP restoration, I'm confident I could out-pace two or even three hybrid jobs working together on my single White Mage. If things go to a dark and unhappy place, casting Cure V and Cure VI back to back restores the HP of two people within about four seconds, and gives them 300-400 HP stoneskin.

I'd need both a Bard and Red Mage to reach that level in Voidwatch, and that feels pretty much right. The "best" healer should work best for an activity with difficulty as it's main draw, similar to how the "best" tank works best.

I find it off that healing works similarly in Abyssea, though, given how laid back the activity is otherwise. If it weren't for procs being needed, you could melee everything in Abyssea to death with Red Mages, White Mages, and Bards and not experience too much difficulty. White Mage being so far above other healers for an otherwise lackadaisical activity doesn't feel right to me.

[Lilia]

when all in the party in red numbers, can a rdm cure5 save all?

Now i can save maybe 1-2 with cure 4 before next aoe kill the rest.
And try one time spam cure4... 100% selfkill.
rdm cure5 can never replace a whm with curaga.

when i read whm posts, i think the whm dont know what the have become after 75!

[Patrik]

if SE is serious about making RDM a big time buffer/debuffer then I'm fine with no cure V... but if that new spell "Temper" is self-target only then I'm gonna be pissed... I'm bothered that they see us as the master of buffing while we are designed to only buff ourselves (/sch only works for so much)

[Crimson_Slasher]

See thats what a lot of whms see us and sch as, competition, sch and blm see one another as nuking competition (to a degree mind you, and while sch cant nuke harder, with good strategem use and timing they can self skillchain and magicburst with nukes.) But as it stands, just like some rdm state, cure V will not replace whm, can it in some situations? Sure! All? Nope! A lot of people talk about spell economics in ffxi, so i will too.

Rdm/whm Vs Whm/rdm Vs Sch/rdm
Curing power:
-Rdm: in this setup at 90-95, rdm gets 4 native cures, and 3 aoe (curaga, curaga II, curaja) as well as 2 regens
-Sch: pocketing 4 full time and 3 regens
-Whm: cure 1-6 aga 1-4(5), cura 1-2 and 4 regens, as well as more potency gear AND Solace's stoneskin effect.
Summary: Even getting Cure V, whm has a whopping 4 more types of curing, solace's skin, and potency gear to overshadow rdm/sch cure power (whom at most if i read right can get 43% if they use every augmentable piece of gear for it)

Buffs:
-Rdm: Protect/shell 1-5, regen 1-2, enspells(self only) Bar-element/status spells(self only,) Stoneskin/blink/aquaveil/phalanx/gain-spells/spikes(all natively self only), refresh 1-2, phalanx II, Protect/shell 1-2(3 protect at 90 i believe?), and haste.
-Sch: Protect/shell 1-5, regen 1-3, tier 1 enspells, refresh, stoneskin, aquaveil, blink, spikes, bar-element and status, regain, hate up, hate down, Stormsurge storms, Klimaform.
-Whm Protect/shell 1-5, protectra/shellra 1-5, regen 1-4, auspice, stoneskin, blink, aquaveil, phalanx, refresh, Boost-spells, haste.
Summary: Okay, shorter list, but right off the bat, you notice, that aside from a few odds and ends like haste, theyre all single target and most natively not offered to other jobs without accession, while white mage can do the ones we can normally cast on others (sans haste) better and for less mp, when it comes to spell economics, buying in bulk for a discount beats saving 10% on each unit (60% savings after it all vs Apx 500% savings if you are casting on 6 people.)

Debuffs:
-Rdm: Sleep 1-2, poison 1-2, dia/bio 1-3, para 1-2, slow 1-2, blind 1-2, flash, break, gravity, bind, addle.
-Sch: Sleep 1-2, poison (maybe 2/rdm?) dia/bio 1-2, para, slow, blind, break, gravity, bind, and lets lump in drain/aspir.
-Whm: Sleep/repose, poison (maybe 2/rdm?) dia/bio 1-2, para, slow, blind, flash, gravity, bind.
Summary: rdm asnd sch are virtually in the same boat as whm.

Nukes:
-Rdm: Tier 1-4 Banish 1-2 Banishga 1-2.
-Sch: Tier 1-5 up to aero (Blizzard after 95 update)
-Whm: Banish 1-3, Banishga 2, holy (holy II after update) Stone-Aero II
Summary: The only field where whm loses out, and personally ive yet to gear MAB gear on my whm to try and see how high i can nuke /rdm or /sch, but ive landed 1.2k holy and if holy II is anything improved over that, its plenty for a good kill-shot.

Overall: Cure V will make rdm/sch sufficient healers in a single target situation, it will not retire whm, just add competition.

Personal note to the white mage croud: You know whats worse that rdm and sch getting cure V? a massive influx of new whitemages gunning for all your whm specific gear and spot in events. Just let that sink in a bit.

[Sasaraixx]

RDM and SCH are support classes get over it. They were never made to be just as good healers or nukers as their respective counter parts. Their strength comes from which subs they choose and how they support the party as a whole. So youre Cure IV is weaker...you have 2 choices use a Helix to make your spell stronger, or keep Regen-ga up on party members so the WHM can focus on other buffs and supporting the tank.

As RDM you can refresh the WHM to let them use higher Cure's in quick succession while you top people off they can''t get to immediately. But this is all providing you want those job to be healers and forget their other abilities and duties. Because certain pieces of equipment give bonus if aligned with the right weather, yay for helix. SCH can also help tanks keep hate by increasing emnity gain. RDM is still the only job with Tier 2 enfeebles that can land consistently on HNMs and has an easy and simple way to change a mobs resistance with Enspells.


You have never played either SCH nor RDM before have you? There are so many inaccuracies in this post.

[Reaux]

So what I am seeing from the last few posts, outside of name calling and only about 2 with proof, is that RDM and SCH believe the only way they can support a party is via a higher tier cure? Seems as we get into higher levels not just SE, but the playerbase is forgetting how many different ways a job can be played and what they bring to the table.

If you really want Cure V level WHM, otherwise wait till 99 cap as we get Cure VII and you can have Cure V to support in the only way SCH and RDM seem to understand. Seems to me you guys wanna play as healers, not the respective jobs you are....support, even in category of heals, does not mean you get the same tools you just use the ones you are given differently.

[Raksha]

If you really want Cure V level WHM, otherwise wait till 99 cap as we get Cure VII and you can have Cure V to support in the only way SCH and RDM seem to understand. Seems to me you guys wanna play as healers, not the respective jobs you are....support, even in category of heals, does not mean you get the same tools you just use the ones you are given differently.

What should a Light Arts SCH be doing if they aren't healing?

All of our so-called support capability was given away to everyone via subbable Accession. WHM/SCH or RDM/SCH can both do AoE stoneskin (or hell, even WAR/SCH can do that!), RDM/SCH can do aoe phalanx, COR now gets TWO different, AND MORE POTENT regains.

Let's not forget that SCH isn't even the most MP efficient healer anymore. WHM/SCH has all of the mp tools that SCH main does (light arts, conserve mp, penury, sublimation) IN ADDITION TO pants which give you MP back for curing! Add on to that capped cure potency and cureskin and it's not even a contest. Only thing that would make WHM even better would be if they could Convert on top of all that.

Giving SCH or RDM a new cure (doesn't have to be cure5) isn't going to obsolete WHM AT ALL. WHM is still going to be far and away the best healer in the game.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional at best.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Dont get me wrong, i dont exactly wanna be looked to as a healer on rdm and sch all the time, would i mind having a bit more cure potency gear or another spell to utilize to heal? sure, ive often considered /blu to see if i get some other worth-while healing spell, but i tell ya, i am THRILLED when someone asks me to come something other than whm, blm, or nin to ANYTHING these days, my smn is all but retired, my rdm is shelfed, my drk is only pulled out occasionally, and my rng if theres no thf and th is needed, and even my new sch is only occasionally pulled out to cap azure in party settings. Do i -want- cure V? Tough call, do i want more healing power? you better believe it, but my stance still stands that rdm/sch getting cure V (while uncreative, again can only make up so many things before you're grasping at straws) wouldnt break whm, it just would mean some players wouldnt HAVE to level whm to offer decent/sufficient healing in certain environments.

[cidbahamut]

Really this argument isn't so much about whether or not RDM and SCH should get Cure V so much as it's an argument on whether or not they should be adequate 'Primary' Healers.

I think it goes a bit beyond that even. If you boil it down to its base components the argument is over whether or not there should be any job other than White Mage that is capable of filling the role of healer.

Currently there is not, and I hear a lot of people saying they think that's perfectly fine, or that we should just duct tape a bunch of support jobs together and pretend they'll work the same as a White Mage. That strikes me as bad game design.

[Lilia]

So what I am seeing from the last few posts, outside of name calling and only about 2 with proof, is that RDM and SCH believe the only way they can support a party is via a higher tier cure? Seems as we get into higher levels not just SE, but the playerbase is forgetting how many different ways a job can be played and what they bring to the table.

If you really want Cure V level WHM, otherwise wait till 99 cap as we get Cure VII and you can have Cure V to support in the only way SCH and RDM seem to understand. Seems to me you guys wanna play as healers, not the respective jobs you are....support, even in category of heals, does not mean you get the same tools you just use the ones you are given differently.

you rly not know what the rdms want to say; is it fair that melee dd have cure4 with dnc sub, is it fair that blu have cure5? and rly why the whm have so much panic for a rdm with cure5?

And for the mom for what you need a rdm now.... much other jobs better.
cure5 can help rdm a bit better as secondhealer.

[Ahrana]

you rly not know what the rdms want to say; is it fair that melee dd have cure4 with dnc sub, is it fair that blu have cure5? and rly why the whm have so much panic for a rdm with cure5?

And for the mom for what you need a rdm now.... much other jobs better.
cure5 can help rdm a bit better as secondhealer.

I quoted that, but I'm not sure what it says. I am sure that this person just wants to justify coming to a party as a red mage instead of a white mage.

[Phafi]

make is so whms can't cast refresh and convert, give me an enfeeble worth casting and I won't ask for cure V.

WE HAVE ADDLE... oh wait :(

[Phafi]

when all in the party in red numbers, can a rdm cure5 save all?

Now i can save maybe 1-2 with cure 4 before next aoe kill the rest.
And try one time spam cure4... 100% selfkill.
rdm cure5 can never replace a whm with curaga.

when i read whm posts, i think the whm dont know what the have become after 75!

How did your whole party get into red?

[Lilia]

draw in , good aoe, or bad whms or whm is dead, away....

[SpankWustler]

So what I am seeing from the last few posts, outside of name calling and only about 2 with proof, is that RDM and SCH believe the only way they can support a party is via a higher tier cure? Seems as we get into higher levels not just SE, but the playerbase is forgetting how many different ways a job can be played and what they bring to the table.

I never called you any names, I just high-lighted the things you misunderstood. I guess it would have been more polite to give a full explanation, but I'm not sure where to start when the effect of Tier II en-spells are mentioned as something of any worth or value. There's a huge gulf between stuff it's safe to hit with a thing and stuff that has high magic evasion, even if the effect of the spells was worthwhile.

I'm sure they don't think it's the only way, but they're right in thinking it definitely helps. My White Mage with mediocre equipment can cure 1000 HP and provide 250 Stoneskin with the most MP efficient cure in the game. With better equipment, it would provide 350 Stoneskin. Identical to the cap on the actual spell, although with a lower duration.

Red Mage or Scholar can cure about 500-600 HP with less MP efficiency and more enmity gained. They lose out in every way. If Red Mage had more substantial defensive buffs they could cast on others, this would be okay. If Scholar had anything particularly useful in Light Arts beyond Light Weather, this would be okay. However, they do not.

I think Cure V itself just comes up so often because it's the easiest and most obvious solution. One preexisting spell is added to two spell lists, and KABLOOWIE! there's more than one viable healer for new content again.


I think it goes a bit beyond that even. If you boil it down to its base components the argument is over whether or not there should be any job other than White Mage that is capable of filling the role of healer.

Pretty much this. I won't fault the opinion of people who understand things well enough to say "There's only one viable healer for a lot of content right now, and I'm cool with that. I'd rather Red Mage and/or Scholar get other things to work better in tandem with White Mage." I'm not sure what other things they have in mind, especially for a Scholar using Light Arts, but I won't tear into anybody who has an accurate perception of things.

I just can't stand people who march proudly into topics, scream "FAST CAT REFROSH RUPTURE", then elaborate on their points by imagining a game with the same spell and ability names as FFXI but totally different mechanics.

[Stylin]

Clearly there's more to Square's reasoning than what you people think makes a viable healer. RDM and SCH have more going for them than just their healing potential. They have the ability to solo things a WHM can't. The obvious answer is that continued denial of Cure 5 is their method of keeping RDM and SCH solo in check.

Does it make sense in a world where NIN THF and DNC can solo better and safer? Not one bit, but that is most likely a factor in this whole thing.

Not that I care, I'm glad I don't have Cure 5.

[cidbahamut]

Clearly there's more to Square's reasoning than what you people think makes a viable healer. RDM and SCH have more going for them than just their healing potential. They have the ability to solo things a WHM can't. The obvious answer is that continued denial of Cure 5 is their method of keeping RDM and SCH solo in check.

Does it make sense in a world where NIN THF and DNC can solo better and safer? Not one bit, but that is most likely a factor in this whole thing.

Not that I care, I'm glad I don't have Cure 5.

This is some very shaky reasoning. Red Mage can still solo a ton of stuff without Cure V and could probably solo nearly as many things as it does now even if Cure IV was taken away as well. There are much more effective roadblocks to RDM soloing that SE can and does make use of.

[SpankWustler]

Clearly there's more to Square's reasoning than what you people think makes a viable healer. RDM and SCH have more going for them than just their healing potential. They have the ability to solo things a WHM can't. The obvious answer is that continued denial of Cure 5 is their method of keeping RDM and SCH solo in check.

Does it make sense in a world where NIN THF and DNC can solo better and safer? Not one bit, but that is most likely a factor in this whole thing.

Not that I care, I'm glad I don't have Cure 5.

Unless Red Mage or Scholar can somehow solo and heal a group the same time, I don't see how one affects the balance of the other. Their soloing strategies typically aren't based around cure spells.

[Economizer]

Their soloing strategies typically aren't based around cure spells.

Convert + Cure V. Strategy made that largely changes how safe a RDM solo is.

Edit: I don't actually care about Cure V when discussing whether or not Red Mage should get Cure V, was just pointing this out. I'm sure I could probably think of more ways that a large cure spell would make a Red Mage solo way less risky or even possible, but I'm hoping this point gets the thought across.

[Lilia]

For me, i dont need cure 5 for solo, but cure 5 can help heal the party.

[Sasaraixx]

I never called you any names, I just high-lighted the things you misunderstood. I guess it would have been more polite to give a full explanation, but I'm not sure where to start when the effect of Tier II en-spells are mentioned as something of any worth or value. There's a huge gulf between stuff it's safe to hit with a thing and stuff that has high magic evasion, even if the effect of the spells was worthwhile.

I'm sure they don't think it's the only way, but they're right in thinking it definitely helps. My White Mage with mediocre equipment can cure 1000 HP and provide 250 Stoneskin with the most MP efficient cure in the game. With better equipment, it would provide 350 Stoneskin. Identical to the cap on the actual spell, although with a lower duration.

Red Mage or Scholar can cure about 500-600 HP with less MP efficiency and more enmity gained. They lose out in every way. If Red Mage had more substantial defensive buffs they could cast on others, this would be okay. If Scholar had anything particularly useful in Light Arts beyond Light Weather, this would be okay. However, they do not.

I think Cure V itself just comes up so often because it's the easiest and most obvious solution. One preexisting spell is added to two spell lists, and KABLOOWIE! there's more than one viable healer for new content again.



Pretty much this. I won't fault the opinion of people who understand things well enough to say "There's only one viable healer for a lot of content right now, and I'm cool with that. I'd rather Red Mage and/or Scholar get other things to work better in tandem with White Mage." I'm not sure what other things they have in mind, especially for a Scholar using Light Arts, but I won't tear into anybody who has an accurate perception of things.

I just can't stand people who march proudly into topics, scream "FAST CAT REFROSH RUPTURE", then elaborate on their points by imagining a game with the same spell and ability names as FFXI but totally different mechanics.

I would like your post twice if I could.

The question of whether or not WHM should be the *only* primary healer in the game is a debate that I am willing to entertain. But don't stroll in here and say "you have enspell II to add to the party." I know some WHM are concerned about losing their place as *the* best healer in the game. I have WHM leveled too! I have all 3 of the jobs in question leveled. Let me tell you, WHM brings so much to the table that even giving SCH or RDM Cure V will not change that. Even before the level cap, this was the case. The only area WHM suffered was Meripo parties because of RDM MP efficiency. (It still got more invites than SCH though.) In any other event, WHM always had a place.

MP efficiency is not really a problem for just about any mage job these days. The new equip, subjob options and abilities have made most of those concerns a lot less pressing.

I am of the opinion that WHM should be the best choice for the main healing slot in just about every situation. However, I would like both RDM and SCH to be *adequate* second choices to fill that spot. Currently, that is not the case in Abyssea or Voidwatch. Now, how they decide to go about doing this is up in the air.

Much to the dismay of some of you, the dev team has not ruled out the possibility of adding a higher tier cure at some point. They've said as much in their post. This seems like the easiest fix, but let's be honest, it is also the least creative and does very little to differentiate the 3 jobs. I would love if they developed a healing helix type of spell for SCH that was actually viable and buffed Light Arts and the new spells to actually be potent. What if the TP down spells they mentioned noticeably reduced the amount of TP moves an NM used or if the Animus spells were useful? How about additional bonuses to weather spells? It would be amazing if RDM received enhancing spells that sufficiently buffed the group and enfeebles that sufficiently debuffed the mob so that Cure IV would be enough to keep the group alive.

As you can see, in order to fill in for that WHM, both the SCH and RDM will have to work a lot harder and utilize all of the tools at their disposal. I have NO problems with this. I don't think any RDM or SCH in this thread wants to replace WHM. I think they would just like a reason to be invited!

Again, the content is changing as we move out of Abyssea. From what I've seen thus far though, while player HP pools are returning to normal, NM difficulty is increasing greatly. Both jobs need to bring something more to the table to warrant a spot on the team. SCH really brings nothing to the table as things stand now. RDM is there to Refresh the WHM and toss out extra Hastes. Something has to be done about this.

[Ophannus]

SE could give Cure 5 to RDM and WHM but adjust the formula so that MND or VIT aren't factored in, kinda like how Waltz was changed for /DNC so that CHR wasn't factored in. This way RDM SCH PLD get something more along the lines of Cure 4.5 which would heal around 600ish not adding in potency. They can also remove the enmity bonus associated with it so that it would draw massive hate(good for PLD, bad for RDM/SCH)

[Lilia]

sasarai 100% ya

[SpankWustler]

Convert + Cure V. Strategy made that largely changes how safe a RDM solo is.

Compared to gravity; bind; Stoneskin; Utsusem, Fast Cast, and Slow II working as a team; proper equipment for Elemental Magic; proper equipment to reduce or eliminate spell interruption; or just finding a really nice fence, casting one less cure after Convert wouldn't make much of a difference. Casting one cure rather than two would make the process safer, but wouldn't save anyone who used Convert right next to the monster without Stoneskin or shadow images.

You're definitely right that it would make the process less risky, but it wouldn't do so in a way that would allow any additional monsters to be killed by a lone Red Mage. It also wouldn't make the process any faster, and time spent is the main pitfall of soloing something nowadays.

Of course, this does raise an interesting point. The development team does some weird stuff so they may get all worked up over the idea of risk being reduced even with literally no other effects. I have no idea what their concept of "balance" is.

[Aequis]

Cure V is WHM-only for several reasons. I don't want to see it on either SCH or RDM, because they simply don't need it and that would be overstepping a WHM's territory. The simple fact is, if you didn't have Abyssea and everything that brings (larger HP/MP pools, reason to cure faster for more, almost limitless MP) then you wouldn't be asking for this spell.

Everyone seems to forget that using Cure V outside of Abyssea is a fail-safe to keep people alive and that you very rarely need to use it. Then again, most WHMs are unskilled and just spam higher tier cures, then somehow feel surprised to have run out of MP. They don't know how to do the job without three Refresh atma. I can't think of a situation where you'd need to be using Cure V and Cure VI constantly outside of Abyssea, so to think of even giving these spells to other jobs - who would use them even less - smacks of pointlessness.

Let's not lose focus on which job is best at what. We really need more uniqueness to each individual job, and an end to this pointless line-blurring that makes all of the mages somewhat similar.

[SpankWustler]

If higher tier VoidWatch stuff and some of the new Notorious Monsters in Dynamis are any indication, pretty much everything new with a funny name is going to hit like a truck full of dynamite. Without twice as much HP, more jobs gaining more ways to keep people alive is even more important.

I agree with most of your other points, though. Cure V (or Cure VI, since it is and always will be closer to Cure IV's MP efficiency) for all would be the least interesting solution by far.

[Jerbob]

Personally agree with a comment someone made earlier in the thread - SE needs to make supporting jobs like RDM worth having in a party instead of a DD, bard or what have you. As I understand it, RDM and SCH are supposed to be jack-of-all-trades who fill gaps and do a bit of everything to earn their spot in the party - you use ALL your magic skills (and for RDM, your melee weapon skills if you've geared for it) to bring everyone to a new level of strength. THIS is what I think RDM and SCH both should be and would like to be, not a stand in for BLM or WHM. Working in tandem is hugely preferable to working against one another.

As a WHM, I am fortunate to be in an event static with an absolutely incredible RDM who does just that, and he is flexible enough to take on anything thrown at him - he can kite, crowd control, stun, support heal, land crippling enfeebles, effectively deal elemental damage, and just generally keep everyone ticking over. He's got PDT- gear and melee gear. In a pinch he can step in and keep things going if me or a BLM are in trouble. This is what I think RDM should excel in.

I think SE could really do with boosting his ability as an enhancer. The AoE Boost-XXX spells could have gone to RDM and been made targettable like Curaga, and things like this double attack spell RDM is supposed to be getting might help here. Make these spells long duration, easy to use and possibly AoE so RDM aren't locked into another haste/refresh cycle, and make them worth using to they really add to a party's strength.

Once SE manages to get the specialists (WHM and BLM) and the support (RDM, SMN, SCH) to a point where players will accept them being in the same party, THEN we can start looking at "overpowering" one job in favour of another - eg things like Haste II - because WHM and RDM (for example) will work so well together than RDM's Haste II won't be reason to dump WHM. Then it won't MATTER that WHM is the only job with Cure V because support mages will already have their places in a party regardless.

More practically, even with this vision I agree that RDM could use a small bonus to healing prowess. With increasing HP, Cure IV is the new Cure III and, even with Tranquil Heart, I think the enmity could stand to be dropped further. There are lots of other possibilities - modifying Regen so that it'll keep working in the background on people with full HP and then restore that lump of "regenned" HP when that player takes damage, for example, or other damage mitigation tools. Oh, and as a WHM even I'm annoyed that RDM lost having exclusive rights to Addle.

So that's my take on this. Focusing not on "RDM needs Cure V to stand in for WHM", but "RDM needs special new spells so that it'll be indisputibly worth having -alongside- WHM, regardless of Cure V".

[DebbieGibson]

When have people not wanted a rdm next to whm? I always had rdm with whm in events for refresh/dia3/haste/debuffs at 75, and the same will be true at 99*.


*assuming lv99 is not in abyssea

[Jerbob]

Well the main thing that people seem to be saying here is that they're not invited to things because a WHM is already there, so apparently in at least some situations RDM + WHM is not seen as desirable. It's like at 75 cap - people often wouldn't want a RDM and a WHM in any experience points party above level 55ish, though it would be wanted in certain endgame situations. If SE are able to make two magic casting jobs work in the same party across the board (and not just in certain situations) then it'd help solve some of RDM's problems.

It's just important to get the balance right; I think that WHM's lack of MP recovery abilities at 75 was supposed to encourage WHM to team up with a support caster, but because RDM's abilities were already adequate for experience this didn't work. At 90, WHM doesn't really lack anything so there's no need for support casters unless you need really powerful enfeebling or enhancing (eg. powerful NMs). Obviously this is a very black and white example, with some exceptions, but the principle stands. If SE can change this so that support offers something really powerful all the time (for example some new, unique enhancing effects) then those support casters will always have something valuable that WHM lacks, and vice versa (Cure V). This makes both specialist and support casters' places in a party more assured in all scenarios, including those in which RDM has been devalued by the playerbase. Making these fun to use - long duration, AoE, possible connection to Composure for RDM, allowing meleeing and so on - would be instrumental in making these changes work.

The tl;dr would be that support casters like RDM need to be able to earn their place in a party -whatever that party is doing-, not just in certain situations, otherwise we're stuck with parties without support casters and that's not good for anyone (except DDs). Just as a bard can replace a DD solely through enhancing, so should a RDM be able to though applying its many trades in equal measure.

=edit= Obviously the critical thing here is to make sure that any enhancements to support casting or specialist casting jobs don't break the balance. Give RDM access to Cure V as well as some powerful unique enhancements and WHM's position isn't assured, and vice versa. Maintaining the balance that would allow two casters per party (including combinations like RDM + RDM, for example) is of absolute importance to stop certain casting jobs being marginalised.

[Lilia]

Cure V is WHM-only for several reasons. I don't want to see it on either SCH or RDM, because they simply don't need it and that would be overstepping a WHM's territory. The simple fact is, if you didn't have Abyssea and everything that brings (larger HP/MP pools, reason to cure faster for more, almost limitless MP) then you wouldn't be asking for this spell.

Everyone seems to forget that using Cure V outside of Abyssea is a fail-safe to keep people alive and that you very rarely need to use it. Then again, most WHMs are unskilled and just spam higher tier cures, then somehow feel surprised to have run out of MP. They don't know how to do the job without three Refresh atma. I can't think of a situation where you'd need to be using Cure V and Cure VI constantly outside of Abyssea, so to think of even giving these spells to other jobs - who would use them even less - smacks of pointlessness.

Let's not lose focus on which job is best at what. We really need more uniqueness to each individual job, and an end to this pointless line-blurring that makes all of the mages somewhat similar.

whm overstepping rdm or sch more as rdm and sch in whm territory.
quickcast cure/statuscure, statuscure aoe, refresh, convert,addle, and and and.... list is long what whm have become after 75.

oh.. i find that idea ok- anyone say cure5 not longer mnd base and with a cap.

[Eth]

11 pages and ignorant white mages still don't understand why giving Cure V to RDM and SCH would not turn those jobs into the new WHM.

CURESKIN

No, it's not just an extra 300 HP that effectively raises the target's HP by that amount for a short period of time if the target was cured to full. It's that, plus

no spell interruption

And that means that your NIN or THF tank can get their shadows back up even as they're getting hit by a truck. And that means that the battle is under control again with one Cure V, whereas that RDM or SCH main healer would probably have to follow the Cure V with Cure 4 or another Cure V if ichi gets interrupted and Ni isn't up yet.

I think any more discussion of this is a waste of time until and unless people finally understand that point.

[cidbahamut]

Cureskin isn't the only thing White Mage has going for it, but it is pretty darn enormous. It's more or less an extra +25% cure potency above the cap and is exceptionally useful in all situations. It's not even the only thing White Mage brings to the table, which puts White Mage that much further ahead of everyone else.

Seriously, White Mage is so far ahead of the game here that no one else is even a speck on the horizon when it comes to filling the role of healer.

[Aequis]

whm overstepping rdm or sch more as rdm and sch in whm territory.
quickcast cure/statuscure, statuscure aoe, refresh, convert,addle, and and and.... list is long what whm have become after 75.

oh.. i find that idea ok- anyone say cure5 not longer mnd base and with a cap.

You saying, that WHM and SCH etc. took a lot from us, by using RDM as a sub?

I'm aware of everything we lost, but this is where the problem starts. My first job to lv.75 was Red mage, and despite having ten other jobs at lv.90 I still consider it my "main". We did end up losing a lot of our specialities at each level uncap, some of which should have been handled better.

SCH as a sub has been restricted in terms of what SCH main has, and I don't quite get the WHM/RDM thing everyone seems so fond of. If you're shedding MP in Abyssea so fast that you need Convert, well...the only thing I have ever used /RDM for on WHM is NMs that need Dispel often (eg. Carabosse if you're the sole mage).

The answer though, isn't to ask for spells that other jobs already have in an attempt to make us somewhat "equal". The last time SE did that to us, they pretty much decimated our flexibility and uniqueness, because people complained we were "too powerful". The solution lies in giving back to each job a specific role, something that defines them and makes them stand out. Whatever you can do outside of the norm with whatever you have, ie. soloing certain NMs as RDM, that's fine and as far as I'm concerned, is a bonus to us.

We don't need to be playing "catch-up" with any job in terms of what we can do. We need clearly defined specific roles, and the giving of JSE spells or abilities to other jobs needs to stop, else there'll be a point where we're all playing the same thing - "Generic mage".

[Ahmed]

I don't mind not having Cure V, as a RDM, since we are not supposed to be healers. That is a White Mage's job. But we should get things that make us wanted in parties/missions/HNM hunts, because the way it is now..
Especially with Refresh Atmas and all the stats buffs from Atmas.. most people are not interested in RDMs anymore, not even for debuffs because Atmas make them too strong to worry about debuffs.

So yeah, Cure V doesn't really matter, but don't cast us out! XD
Give us something that'd make people want a RDM.

[Lilia]

specific role... is good.... for the mom i cant see the place for rdm.
when the party need healing- i go whm, when the party need nukes-blm, support and enfeebling-blu or smn.
only when the alli/party have this magejobs you can come rdm.
Or is a lol event with lowlvl mobs , then is a rdm ok.

~Maybe a solo player , with a bit for the party~

[Shiyo]

If Cure V is the only thing keeping White Mage at the top of the hill then the game has some serious design issues to work out.

That's the sad thing, it isn't why WHM is the top healer. Even if RDM and SCH had cure5, they still wouldn't compare to a WHM, especially next update. Why?:

1) Cureskin is amazing
2) JA MDB bonus thingy? omg so amazing
3) Amazingly strong barspells
4) Shellra5 5/5 is amazing

WHM offers too much survivability, even without factoring in Cure5. I'd still feel sooo much safer with a WHM than any RDM or SCH, but oh well?

[Jerbob]

The problem is that those assets are, while extremely powerful, unnecessary in quite a lot of casual content.

Things like stoneskin conferred by Cure are only useful 100% of the time when you're cure bombing a tanking monk or something like that; in any other scenario I find maybe 80% of those stoneskin effects wearing off naturally, either due to Utsusemi users or hate bouncing around. Sure, that's 20% that are doing something useful, and it is a significant benefit, but not as significant as it appears on paper. Likewise, my barspells with full merits and gear offer only a few points of potency above those of a RDM, so my only real advantage is the magic defence bonus - again, it's very good to have but not as black and white as it appears. The same goes for Shellra V with full merits - a 3% increase in magic defence over Shell V. Useful, but not groundbreaking. Again, for our other high potency spells - Cure VI is hugely expensive and never useful outside Abyssea (and not always inside), I've used Curaga IV maybe four times this year, and Regen IV is only practically useful when blood tanking. Very powerful spells and effects that have a potency that's rarely necessary.

I agree 100% that support casters like RDM should be able to cope with a WHM's duties when high potency support isn't needed - things like paper NMs, or EXP and the like. However, WHMs have only recently recovered from being shunned in low-man content and experience points parties at 75 cap. We don't want to go back to the status quo where medium potency support casters are preferred to us for things like that which don't require our high potency. After all, we can only do one thing - heal and protect - whilst support casters can generally do a lot more than that.

Yes, WHM shouldn't be the only healing option 100% of the time - that's ridiculous - but we should at least be AN option 100% of the time. Giving Cure V to support casters may not change that, but we've still got a way to go to 99 cap and Cure V narrows that gap significantly. Making room in parties for two mages - specialist and support casters together - is a much better solution than cloning parts of jobs and running the risk of treading on toes. If SE's introduction of SCH is anything to go by, they need to focus on understanding this before working on magic casting jobs any more.

[SpankWustler]

For me, it's never mattered much which support job is a slightly better healer for more laid back content. That's the point of laid back content: you can mostly do whatever you want. As long as White Mage remains the obvious first choice for challenging content and situations where healing is really important, things feel balanced to me.

[Ophannus]

Even Fellowship NPCs get Cure 5...

[Lilia]

blus white wind- aoe heal ~ 700 hp- "........"

[Shiyo]

Yeah, bluemage gets cure5 -1, curaga4 -1 and tons of DDing options. We still don't have cure5 and have curaga0(or curaga2 but lol @ subbing whm, and accession cure3/4 destroy your single target healing). But it's ok, we get a brutal earring spell!

Makes no sense at all, I wonder if the entire dev team is trolling us.

[Lilia]

the devs play blus and hates all rdm.... maybe i dream

[Lilia]

where is the whm community?
rly... by rdms want cure5.... (whm)"no no is too much" "rdm with cure5 is the new main healer"....
by blu cure5 ....(whm)"...."
by blu cure5 andcuraga4 (whm)"....."

lol. i know whm+rdm the old 75 friends

[Jerbob]

It's more than a bit ridiculous that Blue Mage is going to have access to our top tier spells (because Curaga V is going to be completely excessive, Cure VI is currently less so but certainly an OSHI- button). However, the difference is that Blue Mage has a completely different role to Red Mage. In practice, what party is likely to ask a Blue Mage to heal for them? Yes, it does happen, but not often.

Red Mage, on the other hand, generally has a very similar back line role to White Mage in most parties. If Red Mages had access to Cure V they would immediately be using it to augment their existing role and would therefore be better positioned to start giving White Mages something to worry about.

I'm not saying it's right for Blue Mages to have these spells, or that Red Mage shouldn't get something decent to help with healing, I'm just pointing out a possible reason why White Mages aren't foaming at the mouth over this sort of thing.

[Seriha]

Were the BLU of today present at launch, I'd say community outlook toward them would be different. At the job's implementation, a main healing role wasn't exactly viable to the degree it is day. On the whole, the job's grown exceptionally well with the cap increases on all fronts. But more to the point, the job has had its time to be stereotyped, and some unfortunately see it as where all the gimp, whiny melee RDMs flocked to. Just as RDM also had its time to be stereotyped as a healer/support in game where people desperately needed such to do anything. Such a role is almost historically sparse on any MMO due to the often unrewarding nature of babysitting random, ungrateful people and how easily blame shifts once poo hits the fan. Some choose to endure this solely because of that scarcity, and this is possibly one of those times where FFXI's multiple jobs on one character bites us. Too often have I seen people using supportive jobs to gear up their pet jobs (not to be confused with actual pet jobs, just whatever their true joy is), conveniently getting gear for their supports because it'd otherwise rot and only the most bastard of leaders would tell them no. And if someone got wise, they could usually just run off to another shell, being gladly accepted because they WHM, RDM, or BRD. And once they finish girding their favorite job? Well, either they suddenly quit that shell or "got bored of X so sold its gear, sorry!" We've wound up kicking a few people like that over the years. Sucks, but there's only so much you can do.

[SpankWustler]

The only good thing about healing Blue Magic is that it puts large numbers in the chat log. The casting times are always a bit too long, especially considering they're compared against spells cast by three jobs with ways of greatly reducing casting time. Also, in order to have Haste and status removal spells at the same time, a Blue Mage is tied to White Mage sub and left with near zero tools for MP longevity. The job has more support elements than it's ever had, currently, but it's still not built like an efficient support job.

Of course, with the caliber of spells that I've seen every recent update, Blue Mage might be able to fill a support/healing role well by 99.

As for stereotyping, I don't know. Many of the reasons Blue Mage was seen as a poor job originally were totally true; such as immutably horrible attack values on spells, depending on MP to do less damage than most melee jobs, being totally useless within current zerg tactics, and benefiting far less from large amounts of Haste than most melee. I played the job regularly because I enjoyed it, but I had no delusions about it being super-awesome. I am elated that it's much better now, however.

Then again, I try to ignore anything stupid that I hear on FFXI unless it's a mistake about game mechanics so I'm probably not the best historian when it comes to ideas people have gotten about jobs.

[Seriha]

I just figure no party heal beyond Healing Breeze until Magic Fruit at its implementation helped BLU get its foot in the door for a front-line presence. Tying physical spell accuracy to main-hand also curbed the job away from staff swapping for everything. Even until Wild Carrot and other later goodies, Head Butt spam was arguably revolutionary as the game's quickest source of frequent stuns, and thus damage mitigation if used well. The job might not have brought the highest damage numbers, especially on HNMs without CASA Cannonball and proper support, but for most other things you could definitely find something to do for a BLU almost regardless of sub.

[Bubeeky]

Blue Mage was also seen as a horrible job choice originally because it had no defined role when it first came out. As a WHM though, I've never really been concerned about BLU being a healer because I think most of them prefer to use their spell points for their other spells that they can dish out massive damage with.

Also, it might be worth mentioning that their first healing spell is Pollen, which is self target only....I know that's common knowledge, but I think it sets the tone for people that play BLU, because it gets them kind of used to only being able to heal themselves for a while, where rdm and sch and whm have cures they can use on others from the early levels.

[SpankWustler]

I just figure no party heal beyond Healing Breeze until Magic Fruit at its implementation helped BLU get its foot in the door for a front-line presence. Tying physical spell accuracy to main-hand also curbed the job away from staff swapping for everything. Even until Wild Carrot and other later goodies, Head Butt spam was arguably revolutionary as the game's quickest source of frequent stuns, and thus damage mitigation if used well. The job might not have brought the highest damage numbers, especially on HNMs without CASA Cannonball and proper support, but for most other things you could definitely find something to do for a BLU almost regardless of sub.

I guess this is all Greek to me because you feel "front-line presence" is something extremely desirable while I'm not that attached to it. If the job had been made differently such that physical spells had normal magic range, very good innate attack and accuracy values, and were enhanced by elemental staffs, that would have been cool with me. Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure the job would actually perform better against high defense/high level monsters if this were the case. I'd definitely have leveled the job either way.

In fact, right now, I'd probably be telling some bro or bro-ette on the Blue Mage forums that Blue Mage is perfectly functional as a mage, doesn't need to hit things with things, and that I leveled it with no intention of hitting a thing with a thing. Feels weird man. I don't think "ironic" is a proper descriptor, but I'm sure somebody invented a word for this situation at some point.

[FrankReynolds]

SO anyways, maybe we should start a thread requesting that they add Cure V just to the test server.... see if it totally breaks the game and causes the universe to collapse in on itself like they think it will.

[saevel]

As someone who did BLU/WAR tanking and BLU/WHM healing I can say that job is ridiculously powerful. Seriha is right, at release BLU didn't have much in the way of healing spells outside H.breeze and M.fruit at "higher" levels. This pretty much made BLU's into "just another" melee DD. Once SE added W.Carrot it made BLU as a main healer possible as BLU's lacked a cheap heal at lower levels. M.Fruit scaling as a Cure V but only 72mp is ridiculous, outside of curaga it's the most efficient heal in the game. H.Breeze was amazing, 55MP for the healing power of a 120MP spell. It was so good that I would go RDM/BLU at 75 to merit on birds (this was before SCH was made). Now they have aoe erase, Curaga IV, Cure 4.5, Cure 4.8, Auto-Refresh, Self-Haste, Self-Refresh, Lullaby, Sleepga, Sleepga II, and whatever they get from their sub.

BLU is now the 2nd best healer in the game, and people still want tell a RDM it's their job to "shut up and heal".

[SpankWustler]

As someone who did BLU/WAR tanking and BLU/WHM healing I can say that job is ridiculously powerful. Seriha is right, at release BLU didn't have much in the way of healing spells outside H.breeze and M.fruit at "higher" levels. This pretty much made BLU's into "just another" melee DD. Once SE added W.Carrot it made BLU as a main healer possible as BLU's lacked a cheap heal at lower levels. M.Fruit scaling as a Cure V but only 72mp is ridiculous, outside of curaga it's the most efficient heal in the game. H.Breeze was amazing, 55MP for the healing power of a 120MP spell. It was so good that I would go RDM/BLU at 75 to merit on birds (this was before SCH was made). Now they have aoe erase, Curaga IV, Cure 4.5, Cure 4.8, Auto-Refresh, Self-Haste, Self-Refresh, Lullaby, Sleepga, Sleepga II, and whatever they get from their sub.

BLU is now the 2nd best healer in the game, and people still want tell a RDM it's their job to "shut up and heal".

It was actually worse than other melee, since no amount of haste or attack could affect the physical spells. I guess this is still true, but Blue Mage has more options now and it's less common to be buffed to infinity and beyond.

Blue Mage can definitely keep people alive like a champ. Alive and possibly without haste. Alive and without a worthwhile level of Shell. Alive and possibly engaged to a monster with no amount of Dia applied to it. And so forth. Typical healing in FFXI is mixed with support and far more than watching big cure numbers scroll by in a chat log.

I do agree that Blue Mage is the second best at restoring HP in FFXI right now. I also think it's too drastically different than Red Mage and White Mage for a direct comparison. It seems closer to Summoner, since both receive unique tools totally outside of White Magic. Heck, with Earthen Armor, Summoner could probably be considered the second-best healer for VoidWatch. The amount of HP loss that prevents can be amazing.

I also agree that Red Mage in a total healing role would be boring as sin to play, but expanding the job's enfeebling abilities and the like at the same time is a far better solution than letting the job's HP restoration/damage prevention abilities stagnate because casting spells on other players makes a minority of people feel sad.

Then again, letting Red Mage stagnate seems to be a favorite hobby of the development team, so I can't say it wouldn't match the theme of the job. It's really a testament to how strong the fundamentals of Red Mage are that the job remains useful.