[Dev1024] - Job-Adjustments - War.

[Shadowgabriel]

Loving the list of adjustments guys! :D

But why the lack of warrior love? :confused:

[Mirage]

Because war is the strongest DD in the game already.

Why the lack of thf love?

[Shadowgabriel]

Thief
Bully (Lv. 93)
Intimidates target.

I know were powerful as is but not even a mention of an ability...

[Karbuncle]

Thief
Bully (Lv. 93)
Intimidates target.

I know were powerful as is but not even a mention of an ability...

I'll trade you, I'll take Ukko's Furry, Berserk, Blood Rage, Retaliation... and... you can have Bully and despoil :3

(Also, There might be a second part? Either that or WAR's update got pushed back? Its true they should have gotten maybe something, They don't really /need/ anything but its always nice to see new toys)

[Shadowgabriel]

lol vaild point but yea I just wanted toys ^^

[Leonlionheart]

I'll take your SA next update.

[Korpg]

I'll take your SA next update.

SA that you don't even have to position yourself in either.

[kingfury]

I think our toys will come in the form of reworked weaponskills, new gear/wpns/trials(i think) and more stuff to kill :)

All of which will be fun to play with... especially the "new stuff to kill" part. Not sure if they're going to give us the new JA's that lets us ensure a Crit hit, and change our damage type on the fly in this next update, but if not we'll still be choppin' heads left and right with a passion. Well... I know I will ^^

[Arcon]

They already mentioned some WAR stuff, although not necessarily next update.

[Karbuncle]

I'll take your SA next update.

You can have it :P But as a result, all of your weaponskills will be severely nerfed!

And i mean Severely! Ukko's Fury? 0.5fTP now!

[Leonlionheart]

You can have it :P But as a result, all of your weaponskills will be severely nerfed!

And i mean Severely! Ukko's Fury? 0.5fTP now!

lol I doubt that. Though I wouldn't doubt it sharing a timer with Blood Rage or some bullshit

[Kyrja]

The development team is probably still discussing what they are going to do with Warrior abilities.
At least I hope.

[Leonlionheart]

New Critical Damage Bonus tier + DA tier and I will be happy enough.

[Korpg]

Or "upgrade" the DA to QA, Quadruple Attack....

[Leonlionheart]

i greatly doubt that would happen, though i wouldn't complain.

[kingfury]

Or "upgrade" the DA to QA, Quadruple Attack....
----------------
Be still my heart... it's just a fantasy... mmmmm, Quadruple Attack...
/Kingfury stares off into the distance drooling a little bit

[Leonlionheart]

Ukko's Fury + QA...

It's the end of the world as we know it

[Retsujo]

I can get down with Quadruple Attack!

I remember back in the day, Double Attack was pretty rare and only Warrior had equipment that boosted it. Now everyone and their mother can get ahold of Double Attack (there's even gear that Warrior can't wear with it!), and I just kind of feel like it's one of those traits that should've stayed more partial to Warrior. I always expected a "Double Attack II" trait or something that would enhance the trait further for Warrior. Quadruple Attack would actually be pretty cool ^^

[Arcon]

[..]there's even gear that Warrior can't wear with it! [..]

Too much actually. My WAR would appreciate both Twilight Belt and Epona's Ring very much.

[Korpg]

Warrior was the first job to get an additional hit on their weapons, but at 90, there are jobs out there that can get more hits in with gear than a WAR can, even with the best DA gear we have (losing out a lot of everything else, but you see my point, I hope).

We WARs should band together and demand our status of having the most hits per swing established back to the WAR's arsenal! We were the first to get it, we should be the best job for it!

[Leonlionheart]

Well, if FF lore has anything to say...

the Double Attack materia in FFVII turns into Quadruple Attack materia.

Though, being able to QA would maximize hits when dual wielding. However I don't see 5% base, unmeritable being too over powered.

TA should get a buff for THF's by 99 anyway, 5% base, +5% merits, they should get a TA II by 99, if not TA III in my opinion, not that my opinion matters much to SE.

[Dart]

i like the ideas but anything significant will make me feel guilty.

[AldielQuetz]

I like the idea of Double Attack II adding an additional 2 swings to Double attack, let's just not call it Quadruple attack, we'll make the THFs jelly and QQ

[AldielQuetz]

AND HE'LL ----ING NO, DON'T FEEL GUILTY...

SE needs to buff every job to the awesomeness that WAR is... And then buff WAR just a little bit more ;)

[Korpg]

And it is times like this that I wonder if the community reps actually read specific job forums...

[Leonlionheart]

I think they do.

Doesn't mean they need to respond though.

Also, I'm sure WAR will still win in everything as long as it has Berserk, DA, Critical Damage Bonus, and Blood Rage.

[Gokku]

wars confirmed to get attack bonus II @ 91 so theres a boost.

[Leonlionheart]

wars confirmed to get attack bonus II @ 91 so theres a boost.

I can live with this.

[Theytak]

AND HE'LL ----ING NO, DON'T FEEL GUILTY...

SE needs to buff every job to the awesomeness that WAR is... And then buff WAR just a little bit more ;)

You know, I like this line of thinking. Instead of balancing everything now, make every job totally over powered, but all about equally so, then make 99 endgame stupidly hard, despite how OP everyone is. I think we have a winning game plan.

[Shirkan]

SE try to sneak in their wonderful Japanese culture into XI many ways, as we all can see and not just Samurai.The fashions for summer breeze fest thing and that Feast of Swords.Um all the food and gear they give eastern names to.Despite all of that, we all know they love Warrior job class based on their endless attraction Vikings and Norse mythology.
I think they want to make the right decision.I hope they give us a nice xmas gift :) For me I'd like to see more DA in some form or another.Crunchy crits are nice too.
It's cool to see nobody flaming here :D.Goes to show we all love our class and like what SE is doing with it.They get some things right I guess!

When the final battle to end all battles will come! It will be a Warrior that deals the final blow!

[TheBarrister]

Because enough noobs have posted on here about how much more powerful a decked out WAR is doing than their full aurore <insert job> and their panties are in a wad?

Because SE actually listens to most of the people who have no idea what they are talking about instead of following older forums that actually have an idea of what this game was like in 2003-2009, instead of the post-TOAUers?

Because if your job isn't on the top, the correct fix is to nerf someone else.

Don't really care though, I'll play any of my 4 jobs because I like them.

Seriously, WAR is a pure DD. All WAR can do is do damage. Can't call a pet, can't summon, can't have a freaky little lizard flying above head, can't heal HP with martial moves or counter moves, can't evade, can't go emo and start draining hp/tp/etc., can't do a billion different steps to dance around a mob. WAR does one thing. Hit the mob. That's it. But other people who have a favorite job will always hate and expect to be able to do perfect damage in addition to all the other things they can do. You want WAR damage, play WAR.

[TheBarrister]

I'll trade you, I'll take Ukko's Furry, Berserk, Blood Rage, Retaliation... and... you can have Bully and despoil :3

(Also, There might be a second part? Either that or WAR's update got pushed back? Its true they should have gotten maybe something, They don't really /need/ anything but its always nice to see new toys)

It's true we don't need anything but if you want all that stuff from WAR, just swap to WAR. If I want Bully and Despoil, I'll swap to my THF...

[StingRay104]

Because enough noobs have posted on here about how much more powerful a decked out WAR is doing than their full aurore <insert job> and their panties are in a wad?

Because SE actually listens to most of the people who have no idea what they are talking about instead of following older forums that actually have an idea of what this game was like in 2003-2009, instead of the post-TOAUers?

Because if your job isn't on the top, the correct fix is to nerf someone else.

Don't really care though, I'll play any of my 4 jobs because I like them.

Seriously, WAR is a pure DD. All WAR can do is do damage. Can't call a pet, can't summon, can't have a freaky little lizard flying above head, can't heal HP with martial moves or counter moves, can't evade, can't go emo and start draining hp/tp/etc., can't do a billion different steps to dance around a mob. WAR does one thing. Hit the mob. That's it. But other people who have a favorite job will always hate and expect to be able to do perfect damage in addition to all the other things they can do. You want WAR damage, play WAR.

Funny, originally war was the jack of all trades in the melee department. Hell war was expected to tank until rotz came out and even then war was an acceptable tank. War should be great at damage and great at defense, just not both at the same time, and it shouldn't be the best. Most those jobs you mentioned in there still have tons of issues with how they work. Pets, summons, flying lizards, drains hp/tp/etc, dances around mobs, ya all this sounds great on paper, yet even super fully decked out dd's can't come close to war in damage. Hell the concept of DRK is that they nearly kill themselves to deal super spike damage, yet a war with no personal risk whatsoever can deal more damage and faster. The pet jobs even if you include their friends damage with their own still can't get close to war. The reason people are upset is their is no balance, and until there is there will be lots of complaints. I for one am glad to see SE finally speak about wars damage as an adjustment because when a job can constantly hit 10k ws's in abyssea w/o brew, then there is a serious problem with balance.

[Leonlionheart]

Funny, originally war was the jack of all trades in the melee department. Hell war was expected to tank until rotz came out and even then war was an acceptable tank. War should be great at damage and great at defense, just not both at the same time, and it shouldn't be the best. Most those jobs you mentioned in there still have tons of issues with how they work. Pets, summons, flying lizards, drains hp/tp/etc, dances around mobs, ya all this sounds great on paper, yet even super fully decked out dd's can't come close to war in damage. Hell the concept of DRK is that they nearly kill themselves to deal super spike damage, yet a war with no personal risk whatsoever can deal more damage and faster. The pet jobs even if you include their friends damage with their own still can't get close to war. The reason people are upset is their is no balance, and until there is there will be lots of complaints. I for one am glad to see SE finally speak about wars damage as an adjustment because when a job can constantly hit 10k ws's in abyssea w/o brew, then there is a serious problem with balance.

No one can ever hit 10k consistently, you're delusional beyond belief.

Outside at this moment WAR is only on par with, if that, SAM, who we all know to be SE's little spoiled brat.

Inside? Who cares. MNK+WHM can duo everything, so who gives two craps about what jobs come to events when even PUP can pop out constant 5k's (disregarding the proc factor).

To top it off considering the masses of NA didn't have a version w/o rotz, WAR was never really a great tank. Sure it could tank, but it still can. And so can SAM. And DRK. And WHM for fuck's sake. Defensively, you're playing the game wrong if you really argue that it matters much outside of VW proccing.

[Arcon]

I hate when people bring up WAR tank, because it was never good at it. It could tank, yes, just like any melee could, it still doesn't mean it was any good at it. WAR was never a jack of all trades, as I pointed out a few times before. People only think that because of Defender and some of the WAR AF1, which creates the illusion that WAR can tank, with all that VIT and Enmity on it. If that was all that it takes, you have a better shot at BLM tanks, because Mana Wall does a lot more for defense than Defender could in a million years.

WAR was never a jack of all trades, it was just good "ish" with different kinds of weapons, a concept which SE buried for good, because they basically removed WAR from any new weapons that were released which aren't an axe or great axe, like the Magian trial weapons.

[Babekeke]

I hate when people bring up WAR tank, because it was never good at it. It could tank, yes, just like any melee could, it still doesn't mean it was any good at it. WAR was never a jack of all trades, as I pointed out a few times before. People only think that because of Defender and some of the WAR AF1, which creates the illusion that WAR can tank, with all that VIT and Enmity on it. If that was all that it takes, you have a better shot at BLM tanks, because Mana Wall does a lot more for defense than Defender could in a million years.

Well, someone was tanking when the game was first released, before nin and pld were available...


WAR was never a jack of all trades, it was just good "ish" with different kinds of weapons, a concept which SE buried for good, because they basically removed WAR from any new weapons that were released which aren't an axe or great axe, like the Magian trial weapons.

Moepapa Mace (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Moepapa_mace) says hi. Not to mention Sagasinger, Twilight knife, ToM GS are about the only ones WAR has been excluded from, Draca Cousa and Quint spear, Only a couple of 76+ bows, scythes and staves that war can use, but that's about it.
Overall, an unfounded statement. It should have just read "SE didn't let WAR do all of the ToM weapons Q.Q"

[Walsh]

I tanked pretty much all my parties back when the game came out in NA. I still remember the timing of Utsu: Ichi on crabs to this day, how many "bounces" in their animation in Kuftal and Boyahda tree you have to wait to cast without being interrupted. And even when we got a paladin (and especially when we got a ninja) I tanked most of the fights anyway. Warrior has hardly changed since the game came out. Maybe war was never a viable tank for something big like Fafnir (although I had a few moments of glory back in the day), and square has changed a lot to help other jobs since, but for regular XP there's a reason why eventually everyone realized that inviting 4 wars was the way to get your merits.

[Arcon]

Well, someone was tanking when the game was first released, before nin and pld were available...

Yes, WAR and MNK. Didn't you read what I said?


Moepapa Mace (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Moepapa_mace) says hi. Not to mention Sagasinger, Twilight knife, ToM GS are about the only ones WAR has been excluded from, Draca Cousa and Quint spear, Only a couple of 76+ bows, scythes and staves that war can use, but that's about it.
Overall, an unfounded statement. It should have just read "SE didn't let WAR do all of the ToM weapons Q.Q"

I said "basically", which meant all but those five examples you mentioned, four of which WAR wouldn't find much use for (Quint Spear being the example for staggering mobs). And no, I don't care for any other weapons, I'm quite happy with my GA, considering 99% of all ToM weapons are borderline useless anyway. I'm just saying it's groundless to call WAR a jack of all trades, because even if it used to be once (which it also wasn't, really), it sure as hell not now. WAR is a DD, a Great Axe DD. That's its identity. Another hint that SE agrees with me, is that they switched from defensive stats on AF1, to more offensive stats on AF2, to exclusively offensive stats on AF3.

[Babekeke]

Personally, I think that the definition of a job being a 'jack of all trades' is the variety of SJs that you see people using for it. There are very few that I haven't seen people using on WAR. I've personally seen peiople tanking on war (generally in pre-60 parties) with the following SJs: whm rdm nin sam mnk rng dnc pld and I'm sure that it's been done with SCH and BLU too.
WAR has C+, C and C- in shield, evasion and parrying respectively, which certainly at the lower levels is very helpful for tanking (assuming that the player has them at or near cap, of course), though the gap of course grows considerably as the level rises.
For DDing, mnk, thf, rng, sam, drg, nin are all situationally good SJs, with better benefits at some levels than others, of course (I personally like pup as a SJ pre-30 as long as you're killing EP-DC mobs so the automaton can hit sufficiently; this is for any job, not just war).
Lastly, it's very rare, but bst brd cor can be subbed without really impacting the war too much, though I admit, I've never seen these be subbed. WAR would suffer less than most by doing so though.

In short, WAR IS a very versatile job.

[Leonlionheart]

Personally, I think that the definition of a job being a 'jack of all trades' is the variety of SJs that you see people using for it. There are very few that I haven't seen people using on WAR. I've personally seen peiople tanking on war (generally in pre-60 parties) with the following SJs: whm rdm nin sam mnk rng dnc pld and I'm sure that it's been done with SCH and BLU too.
WAR has C+, C and C- in shield, evasion and parrying respectively, which certainly at the lower levels is very helpful for tanking (assuming that the player has them at or near cap, of course), though the gap of course grows considerably as the level rises.
For DDing, mnk, thf, rng, sam, drg, nin are all situationally good SJs, with better benefits at some levels than others, of course (I personally like pup as a SJ pre-30 as long as you're killing EP-DC mobs so the automaton can hit sufficiently; this is for any job, not just war).
Lastly, it's very rare, but bst brd cor can be subbed without really impacting the war too much, though I admit, I've never seen these be subbed. WAR would suffer less than most by doing so though.

In short, WAR IS a very versatile job.

In the way WAR is versitile, so is SAM, DRK, MNK, PUP, WHM, BLM, RDM, DNC, NIN, PLD, BLU, THF then

SAM can tank and DD, MNK can tank and DD, PUP can tank and DD, WHM can tank and DD, BLM can tank and DD, RDM can tank and DD, DNC can tank and DD, NIN can tank and DD, PLD can tank and DD, BLU can tank and DD, THF can tank and DD, and I'm sure there are plenty that slip my mind.

So why is WAR singled out as a jack of all trades? SAM can use shields too yo

[Economizer]

WHM can tank and DD

White Mage melee is legitimized outside of the White Mage and Red Mage forums woot! :p

Really too bad you didn't mention Summoner, could really make some people crazy with a statement like that.

-

Anyways, I'll say that while Warrior is a great tank (they have the most important feature to tank in this game, massive enmity generation!) it doesn't really matter if it is versatile or not, or capable of twenty things, or a good tank. Warrior is known for doing on thing very, very well, and that is putting the hurt on something. Inside Bizzaro World Abyssea where procs matter, Warrior is paired with Ninja, Monk, and Thief for the top melee slots too.

My question now would be "What should Warrior get better at?" I think answering this question would give us a better understanding about what posters in this thread want, rather then trying to say what Warrior was in the past.

[Babekeke]

In the way WAR is versitile, so is SAM, DRK, MNK, PUP, WHM, BLM, RDM, DNC, NIN, PLD, BLU, THF then

SAM can tank and DD, MNK can tank and DD, PUP can tank and DD, WHM can tank and DD, BLM can tank and DD, RDM can tank and DD, DNC can tank and DD, NIN can tank and DD, PLD can tank and DD, BLU can tank and DD, THF can tank and DD, and I'm sure there are plenty that slip my mind.

So why is WAR singled out as a jack of all trades? SAM can use shields too yo

Probably because WAR can do it from level 5 to 95


My question now would be "What should Warrior get better at?" I think answering this question would give us a better understanding about what posters in this thread want, rather then trying to say what Warrior was in the past.

Apparently, the answer is 'killing bones and pots'. Right now, WAR has to slightly gimp themselves by using a staff or club to deal better damage to them, but SE doesn't like this, so roll on the 'change the damage type of your Great Axe' update. I wonder if we can change it to magic damage too... Formless strikes style. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

[Leonlionheart]

Probably because WAR can do it from level 5 to 95

this is where I exit the conversation, because nothing level 1~75 matters, and there's no reason you should be doing anything after 75 as any level other than 95.

So if you're going to argue this, then there's literally no point in talking to you

[StingRay104]

this is where I exit the conversation, because nothing level 1~75 matters, and there's no reason you should be doing anything after 75 as any level other than 95.

So if you're going to argue this, then there's literally no point in talking to you

I never get tired of seeing this strategy, forget all the facts and only use the ones I want you to use. In all honesty any job can tank from 75-95 so your whole basis is without merit. Given all this if you actually compare defensive capabilities then you'd realize war has far more defensive capabilities than other jobs, but they cause you to take away from your broken damage so why bother, its not like the mobs are gonna be alive long enough for it to matter and when it comes to hnms your gonna have pld nin or thf tank it so just focus on pure damage. Anyways I grow tired of trying to educate people in this game, seeing as how SE has decided to completely dick with it instead of actually do the thing everyone wants, IE bring every other dd up to wars level and make them all relevent. Have fun with your endless bs about how you think the game works.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Wait what, War has no native defensive capabilities (that don't suck) and please don't say Defender. Unless you count retaliating and still taking damage a defense...

War's defense is killing the mob before it kills the War, unless they /Nin for shadows, /Sam for seigan, or /Mnk for counterstance/counter (not suggested except inside due to counter atma/your healer can't handle /sam retal tanking for some unknown reason).

Actually you're going to have to list these 'far more' defensive capabilities than other jobs. And please for all that is holy do not bring up Shield...

[Retsujo]

Warrior may not be a Paladin by any respect, but its defense capabilities are there. Growing up as WAR, I tanked most of the missions battles all the way through CoP, and most of Aht Urghan as WAR. No, Warriors don't have the HP of a Monk, or the Defense of a Paladin, but they do have quite a bit of both, and pack quite a punch (okay, chop (Great Axe, hur hur)) to make up for it.

No, not everyone thinks Warrior can tank - but if you gear it right it can be a pretty good one when you have no other options. Don't knock it until you've tried it!

Of course nobody cares enough to experiment shit like this anymore. Everyone knows the best role and best subjob for every job no matter what and nothing else matters because it's just the way things are. Right?

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm sorry, any job can build a PDT/MDT set so no those do not count. Pre cap removal War was tanking /Nin, /Sam post 60 and seigan. Anything being bloodtanked by War pretty much any job could have tanked it at that point.

[Retsujo]

I never had any pdt-/mdt- gear pre-80. I was pretty much an endgame noob and didn't have very much good gear to begin with. Warrior's Artifact armor +1 is pretty decent tanking gear, with some select Relic armor as well. I was quite an MP sink, but it worked well enough to get the job done when it needed to be done.

All you're going to do is look at every situation anyone gives you and say "anyone could've done that. Doesn't count." You have nothing to go on other than you believe Warrior can't do shit for tanking. Rather than point out flaws in other people's debates, try explaining your point of view with less criticism and more constructive arguments.

Quit hatin'.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yeah... you think War AF/Relic is tanking gear. We're done here.

[Retsujo]

I said it was pretty decent for the time I was using WAR to tank stuff. But it's pretty clear you're just going to stick to your weak defensive mechanism, so there's no use arguing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There is no weak defensive mechanism. You were just a terrible tank and didn't realize it.

[Retsujo]

Of course I was a terrible tank, I never disputed that. :P

I'll reiterate for you, since you don't seem to understand: Warriors are not the best tanks, but they're better at tanking than other "non-tank" jobs.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Bloodtanking bar Brovura, not really (of course, the only requirements you need to clear to tank are 'sufficiently hold hate','not die' and 'not overtax support so that you do die'). Damage mitigation... worse than Sam/Nin/Mnk/Prd/Drk prenerf at minimum. Actually, they can fulltime TE/Seigen now without losing as much damage as war, so they're probably better off.

[Leonlionheart]

I never get tired of seeing this strategy, forget all the facts and only use the ones I want you to use. In all honesty any job can tank from 75-95 so your whole basis is without merit. Given all this if you actually compare defensive capabilities then you'd realize war has far more defensive capabilities than other jobs, but they cause you to take away from your broken damage so why bother, its not like the mobs are gonna be alive long enough for it to matter and when it comes to hnms your gonna have pld nin or thf tank it so just focus on pure damage. Anyways I grow tired of trying to educate people in this game, seeing as how SE has decided to completely dick with it instead of actually do the thing everyone wants, IE bring every other dd up to wars level and make them all relevent. Have fun with your endless bs about how you think the game works.

What is this I don't even

[Leonlionheart]

Of course I was a terrible tank, I never disputed that. :P

I'll reiterate for you, since you don't seem to understand: Warriors are not the best tanks, but they're better at tanking than other "non-tank" jobs.

Let's see here

WAR: Defender, Shield Skill, PDT gear
MNK: Counterstance, Perfect Counter, Dodge, Guarding, Evasion skill, PDT gear
WHM: Protect, Self Cures, Stoneskin, Blink, Aquaveil, Shield Skill, PDT gear
RDM: Protect, Phalanx, Stoneskin, Blink, Aquaveil, Self Cures, Shield Skill PDT gear
BLM: Stun, Drain, Ice Spikes, Manawall
THF: Literally more evasion than possible on any other job, PDT gear
PLD: Everything
DRK: Dread Spikes, Drain, Drain II, Stun, Weapon Bash, PDT gear
BST: Pet, Pet PDT gear, PDT gear
RNG: Actually has less defense than WAR, ranged attacks so shouldn't take damage, PDT gear
BRD: Scherzo, Minne, Paeon, PDT gear, plethora of useless, yet still on the defensive side, spells
SMN: Pet, Stoneskin, Blink, Self Cures, Earthen Armor, PDT gear
SAM: Seigan, Third Eye, PDT gear
NIN: Utsusemi, High evasion, PDT gear
DRG: Healing Breath, PDT gear (possibly less defensive than WAR, but enmity- on jumps makes up for it most of the time)
BLU: OH GOD THE LIST IS SO LONG, PDT gear
COR: Less defensive than WAR the same way RNG is, PDT gear
SCH: Same as RDM, without Phalanx, with situational other advantages, PDT gear
DNC: Waltz, Samba, High Evasion, PDT gear

3 Jobs that shouldn't be taking hate for extended periods of time have less defensive capabilities than WAR.

I've probably missed some things, and HP values I haven't mentioned which sway things on who should be tanking, but literally every job can outlast WAR, besides what I've mentioned.

Again, 1~75 doesn't matter in any way anymore with book burns/abyssea.

[Economizer]

Let's see here

Well, in a party situation, I'd prefer that a WAR tanks over a White Mage, but since I'd like to derail this pointless back and forth I'll ask again...

What do you want for Warrior?

I think when we start discussing this we can actually talk about real job adjustments rather then whether or not Warrior is a tank or not.

[Leonlionheart]

WAR needs nothing in terms of offense. It's the top DD, and it's always been fluctuating between first and second place. It only really lacks in the defensive aspects when comparing it to SAM, which is the only job that it really can be compared to.

So WAR needs a defensive ability that can prevent damage so that it can stay on the mob and retaliate. Bravura and a good PDT set is kind of the only way it can stand up for entire fights at the moment (VW, everything else doesn't really matter since anyone can do it without dying.) Even good Bravura WAR's die too.

On another note, hopefully they are nerfing Restraint so that they can actually give us something in terms of updates that will knock SAM of it's high horse again

[tyrantsyn]

I agree that war needs a new defensive option out side of gear. Some reasonable of course. A - DT trait would be nice or JA that would would grant it for a time.

[Leonlionheart]

I think something along the lines of a Sentinel type ability, as in reduces damage taken severely for a short amount of time, but stops you from auto-attacking (but retaliation can still proc) would be perfect.

Can't stress the retaliation proc enough, as without it I don't think I'd ever use such an ability. Even still it'd have limited use as there's no way of knowing that you will keep hate for the entire duration, so it'd be hard to balance it with cooldown. Duration would also be a problem unless you can switch it off.

Honestly WAR is the only real job without a good way of mitigating damage.

RNG has Decoy Shot
COR has doesn't really generate enmity
DRG has High Jump/Super Jump
DRK has Dread Spikes, Stuns, and Drains

And those are the only jobs that, when played poorly, die faster than a WAR

[Daniel_Hatcher]

No job has everything... that's called unbalanced. As people have mentioned WAR is one of if not the best DD, for that reason it needs to lack defensively.

[Leonlionheart]

Really? The other top DD don't lack defensively. MNK gets Perfect Counter and Counterstance, SAM gets Seigan and Third Eye, DRG get's severe enmity mitigation, DRK... (is DRK even a DD anymore? lolol) has catastrophe, dread spikes, can stun dangerous moves.

WAR can gimp it's damage to take maybe 10~20 less damage to physical hits

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Really? The other top DD don't lack defensively. MNK gets Perfect Counter and Counterstance, SAM gets Seigan and Third Eye, DRG get's severe enmity mitigation, DRK... (is DRK even a DD anymore? lolol) has catastrophe, dread spikes, can stun dangerous moves.

WAR can gimp it's damage to take maybe 10~20 less damage to physical hits

Well it's not exactly weak, bad-stereotype doesn't make it no longer a DD.

They have Defender, and I don't think they actually lack that much defensively, 90% of the time any Damage Taken gear given to jobs like PLD is given to WAR, they have meh-Defender. All they really lack is a spell or JA that negates damage like other jobs which I wouldn't say WAR needs.

[Raucent]

Really? The other top DD don't lack defensively. MNK gets Perfect Counter and Counterstance, SAM gets Seigan and Third Eye, DRG get's severe enmity mitigation, DRK... (is DRK even a DD anymore? lolol) has catastrophe, dread spikes, can stun dangerous moves.

WAR can gimp it's damage to take maybe 10~20 less damage to physical hits

most DRKs will have Stuns Dread Spike Wep Bash, unless they have Relic or Crisis they are SoL on Catastrophe

[Neisan_Quetz]

Defender is a joke, stop bringing up defender. The JA might as well not exist and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. Chi Blast without Penance is more relevant and that's still fairly useless.

All jobs can get PDT/MDT gear so that is a moot point. All of War's damage mitigation (not counting killing an enemy faster, which outside Sam can do better) comes from subjob.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Defender is a joke, stop bringing up defender. The JA might as well not exist and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. Chi Blast without Penance is more relevant and that's still fairly useless.

All jobs can get PDT/MDT gear so that is a moot point. All of War's damage mitigation (not counting killing an enemy faster, which outside Sam can do better) comes from subjob.

So ultimately you want another form of shadows or just a plain take 0 points of damage?

Why can no job be unique.

[Leonlionheart]

So ultimately you want another form of shadows or just a plain take 0 points of damage?

Why can no job be unique.

If we are meant to be glass cannons, then make us clearly the best option for pure DD output

If SAM and MNK are equal, what's the point in going WAR?

[tyrantsyn]

Thinking I'd like to see a native stun move, maybe in the form of a kick or shoulder rush "I know h2h has that". Something on a reasonable timer and works regardless of what type of weapon that is being used.

[Darriken]

Really? The other top DD don't lack defensively. MNK gets Perfect Counter and Counterstance, SAM gets Seigan and Third Eye, DRG get's severe enmity mitigation, DRK... (is DRK even a DD anymore? lolol) has catastrophe, dread spikes, can stun dangerous moves.

WAR can gimp it's damage to take maybe 10~20 less damage to physical hits

Better than your warrior unless you are talking about inside abyssea.

[tyrantsyn]

Better than your warrior unless you are talking about inside abyssea.

If your referring to DRK, trust me there not putting out the numbers of a Ukon war is, inside or out of abyssea. Hell even with a widow maker, a WAR damage is seriously top of the food chain.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There's other things to consider though such as support (the less you have the better drk looks) and whether or not you can fulltime hasso/benefit from retaliation.

[Leonlionheart]

Better than your warrior unless you are talking about inside abyssea.

A friend parsed Tinnin the other day:

37% Ukon WAR, 29% Masa SAM, 20% perfect geared Apoc95 DRK, rest was MNK

DRK is so bad...
To his behest we had a BRD, but the SAM was silly and said marchx1 minuetx1 so it's not like we were all capping haste, Apoc still had that extra 15% from last resort on us.

[Darriken]

So? i can bring up the Tyger parse where i went 40% while there were Masa's and Ukon's in my party. The DRK was just bad. Get off the War train seriously. It's not as good as you people think. We could sit here and say what we got on parses all day but it really doesn't say anything because of variables of players' skill and the actual truthfulness of the parse. It seems like everyone says DRK is a terrible DD on my server except the people in my linkshell because the two apoc darks in my linkshell (me included) prove it to them time and time again. For some reason people get it in their mind that DRK sucks and then it's ignorance that keeps that word out there. At lvl 90 i would use caladbolg and honestly, the margin between me and the next DD wasn't even close... it was actually embarrasing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Your Sams were doing it wrong. The Wars too.

[Darriken]

Your Sams were doing it wrong. The Wars too.

Then your DRKs were doing it wrong... See this can keep going on forever. DRK/WAR/SAM, and i'd assume DRG with a Ryu would also be, and also a relic RNG on T3 Voidwatch are the top DDs. saying DRK is bad is being ignorant. You just haven't found someone who has played it well before.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I never said Drk is bad. But if your drk is doing 40% of the damage versus ukon wars and masamune sams then yes, they are doing things very wrong.

[Darriken]

I never said Drk is bad. But if your drk is doing 40% of the damage versus ukon wars and masamune sams then yes, they are doing things very wrong.

Was mainly talking to Leon about that. Anyways, but the Best possible WAR, DRK, and SAM, will come pretty close to each other, on those Tyger parses I stated I'm sure they weren't playing to the best. The best WAR i know is my brother, best possible WAR gear pretty much, and he always came slightly behind me.

[Arcon]

DRK was bad ever since Haste cap was adjusted. And even before then it was only good with massive support. Now it's only good for zerg situations. I've never seen a DRK come close to my damage (and I don't have Ukon yet), neither before Abyssea, nor now, inside or outside. And by close I mean within half of my damage. DRK is a subpar DD, but telling that to DRKs is as pointless as any discussion can be.

[Darriken]

Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

[tyrantsyn]

I think the point here is that ppl are looking for another defensive option on WAR, not who's got the biggest damage %. Derail the bickering and get back to the idea at hand please.

[Darriken]

I think the point here is that ppl are looking for another defensive option on WAR, not who's got the biggest damage %. Derail the bickering and get back to the idea at hand please.

If we are talking about Voidwatch, The DDs should be just having Seigan + Third Eye and using a PDT set when its down if they have hate if they are any good. Some like Kaggen and Uptala Third Eye won't do anything anyway, so it's basically ride your PDT and hopefully get a cure before it does more than one or two hits on you. On DRK i know i ride my temp items(fanatics) until no more procs ensue, however Seigan + Third Eye + Dread spikes keep me alive quite long unless it's one of those mobs DS doesn't work on. I'm sure DRG also works very well with surviving with jumps.

From what i've seen with my experiences with Voidwatch, DD survivability would go in this order :
Relic RNG > DRK(unless it's an undead mob) > DRG > WAR = SAM

[Leonlionheart]

I call troll, there's no one who can literally think DRK is that great

I have both jobs, Cala and Ukon, and it's immensely clear that WAR scorches the shit out of DRK

Also, on new VWNM, Gekko>Fudo>Kaiten makes SAM pretty lulztastic

[Darriken]

I call troll, there's no one who can literally think DRK is that great

I have both jobs, Cala and Ukon, and it's immensely clear that WAR scorches the shit out of DRK

You aren't a very good DRK then

[Neisan_Quetz]

Sam at the very least has blade bash (even on a timer) and enhances seigan/TE, so they're still edging out war in damage mitigation, bar the Nms you listed.

[Glacont]

I call troll, there's no one who can literally think DRK is that great

I have both jobs, Cala and Ukon, and it's immensely clear that WAR scorches the shit out of DRK

Also, on new VWNM, Gekko>Fudo>Kaiten makes SAM pretty lulztastic

Weather your statment is True or not, what's the use of bashing other jobs? I myself am pro War & Sam, whom also owns a Uko, but at the same time I don't see a reason to look down on others. All jobs have somthing to offer. This is not Cool. Having different views on a subject matter is one thing, but when You start attacking ppl's job class just because You feel superior is all wrong. You may have a wealth of knowledge, but right now you're not conducting yourself accordingly. Maybe Churchhill is right about You. Right now I am ashame you're even in My job class. You can troll this post all you want. You won't get any response out of Me.

[Leonlionheart]

Was mainly talking to Leon about that. Anyways, but the Best possible WAR, DRK, and SAM, will come pretty close to each other, on those Tyger parses I stated I'm sure they weren't playing to the best. The best WAR i know is my brother, best possible WAR gear pretty much, and he always came slightly behind me.

Have you played DRK in high end VW before?
50% of the time you're casting magic to proc, 40% of the time you're using subpar GS and Scythe WS's, or maybe even Club or Sword.
10% you get to pull out your weapon of choice and start WSing during blitzes. Hard to call that a real damage dealer.
SAM is similar, but it can DD (w/ aftermath) if you're stacking enough attack, though many situations you won't be capping accuracy so it becomes a problem. Sometimes comes out on top in terms of WS damage, but lack of accuracy food can hurt it pretty bad if you're on in a gutter w/ procs and temps.

I was making a crack about how DRK is forced to play in VW (is it even a DD anymore?) since essentially all you do is try to proc and your damage elsewise (without massive support, as stated elsewhere in this thread) is severely subpar in the end.

Maybe a Redemption would change my mind, but there are like 40 of them or something in the game, and I've never seen Quietus out parse guillotine by much.

Edit: @Glacont: Maybe if SE reads testimonials from players about how underpowered certain jobs are in relevant content that occasionally resembles a challenge they will do something that can actually fix said jobs? Either way, falsehoods are falsehoods and should be pointed out.

[Darriken]

Have you played DRK in high end VW before?
50% of the time you're casting magic to proc, 40% of the time you're using subpar GS and Scythe WS's, or maybe even Club or Sword.
10% you get to pull out your weapon of choice and start WSing during blitzes. Hard to call that a real damage dealer.
SAM is similar, but it can DD (w/ aftermath) if you're stacking enough attack, though many situations you won't be capping accuracy so it becomes a problem. Sometimes comes out on top in terms of WS damage, but lack of accuracy food can hurt it pretty bad if you're on in a gutter w/ procs and temps.

I was making a crack about how DRK is forced to play in VW (is it even a DD anymore?) since essentially all you do is try to proc and your damage elsewise (without massive support, as stated elsewhere in this thread) is severely subpar in the end.

Maybe a Redemption would change my mind, but there are like 40 of them or something in the game, and I've never seen Quietus out parse guillotine by much.

Edit: @Glacont: Maybe if SE reads testimonials from players about how underpowered certain jobs are in relevant content that occasionally resembles a challenge they will do something that can actually fix said jobs? Either way, falsehoods are falsehoods and should be pointed out.

I own an apocalypse and I play endgame (Voidwatch) on it everyday. And that's the same way with everyjob, you get a hint for a weapon you have, and do subpar WS for it. And you are really underrating DRK's ability to put out DMG, but I guess that's useless telling to you because it seems like you are one of those WAR's who when they get an Ukon they think they are the hottest thing ever (I've seen a lot of them go through the Linkshell I'm in right now), and when it comes down to performing, they don't put out. I'm not saying WAR is bad, not at all, it's a phenominal DD just too many people overrate it nowadays. Abyssea is over, some people need to get over themselves.

[Leonlionheart]

I agree Ukon is overrated, simply because you can't become the best just by having it like most people think. Seen too many Ukons in full AF3+2 wsing in twilight helm/mail and then wondering why they aren't doing OMG damage like in all the SS's. Then, to top it off, 90% of them don't know what PDT or MDT means which is the biggest part of endgame play.

However, I tank on WAR whenever I get the chance to actually play it, so no; I'm not just proccing like other jobs.

WAR, MNK, SAM can actually be up there smacking the mob with their weapon of choice because they can take a hit and deal enough damage to warrant them being up there. Every DRK I've played with does subpar WS's and dps, and dies too quickly. I'm sure that DRK could tank if applied correctly, don't know why no one ever tries.

[Darriken]

I agree Ukon is overrated, simply because you can't become the best just by having it like most people think. Seen too many Ukons in full AF3+2 wsing in twilight helm/mail and then wondering why they aren't doing OMG damage like in all the SS's. Then, to top it off, 90% of them don't know what PDT or MDT means which is the biggest part of endgame play.

However, I tank on WAR whenever I get the chance to actually play it, so no; I'm not just proccing like other jobs.

WAR, MNK, SAM can actually be up there smacking the mob with their weapon of choice because they can take a hit and deal enough damage to warrant them being up there. Every DRK I've played with does subpar WS's and dps, and dies too quickly. I'm sure that DRK could tank if applied correctly, don't know why no one ever tries.

That is where i have to agree with you. For some reason DRK is the job, people who want to suck at this game play. A lot of WARs are smart and carry around PDT and MDT sets and play the job well. Most DRKs I play with are absolutely terrible. They only switch between TP and WS gear and that is why I think people get the idea that DRK is bad, is because the people who play it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Gonna agree for my server that job seems to be... Gonna go with War since I see way too many uther's grips and I just smh every time I see them... the 5/5 Emp/fulltime twilight head/body Ukon Wars make me cringe as well.

If they have a PDT set it's llike fulltime Grim if that...

[Leonlionheart]

There's a lot of that on Asura. I can literally count on 1 hand the amount of WAR's I've played with that actually have decent PDT MDT sets.

I can't even count the amount of DRK's I've played with that have good PDT MDT sets because, well, there've been none.

[hiko]

Have you played DRK in high end VW before?
50% of the time you're casting magic to proc, 40% of the time you're using subpar GS and Scythe WS's, or maybe even Club or Sword.
10% you get to pull out your weapon of choice and start WSing during blitzes. Hard to call that a real damage dealer.
SAM is similar, but it can DD (w/ aftermath) if you're stacking enough attack, though many situations you won't be capping accuracy so it becomes a problem. Sometimes comes out on top in terms of WS damage, but lack of accuracy food can hurt it pretty bad if you're on in a gutter w/ procs and temps.

I was making a crack about how DRK is forced to play in VW (is it even a DD anymore?) since essentially all you do is try to proc and your damage elsewise (without massive support, as stated elsewhere in this thread) is severely subpar in the end.


Because WAR never need to use subpar GA,axe or maybe even Club, Sword, staff,....
because you cant get 2 DRK in your ally (one procing, one DDtanking)

and it's stupid to QQ about a DD nerf by saying we are by far the best DD

[Siiri]

Seriously, if you going to post your parse about how war owns all other jobs, call drk a joke , etc etc, then you can't cry about a nerf. You are giving SE more ammo to nerf it more, which listening to some WARs I hope they do. BTW, just because SE gave your favorite job a bunch of broken job abilities doesn't make you a good player. It's like the SAM's who talked smack about nyzul isle at 75. Because Nyzul at 75, or anything else in this game, is hard. Only job I personally always want these days is white mage. Your WAR isn't special to most of us. Plenty of things get done in game without warriors.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because buffing jobs is too hard (well, it is for SE it seems).

[Leonlionheart]

I don't see anywhere on the last 5 pages people QQing about a nerf just people arguing if WAR is tank, or if DRK is the best DD

[Babekeke]

Seriously, if you going to post your parse about how war owns all other jobs, call drk a joke , etc etc, then you can't cry about a nerf. You are giving SE more ammo to nerf it more, which listening to some WARs I hope they do. BTW, just because SE gave your favorite job a bunch of broken job abilities doesn't make you a good player. It's like the SAM's who talked smack about nyzul isle at 75. Because Nyzul at 75, or anything else in this game, is hard. Only job I personally always want these days is white mage. Your WAR isn't special to most of us. Plenty of things get done in game without warriors.

Enjoy your FC parties without a war or a rdm

[hiko]

Enjoy your FC parties without a war or a rdm

BLU need no war nor rdm to "cleave" (and tahts not the only one)

[Retsujo]

I don't see anywhere on the last 5 pages people QQing about a nerf just people arguing if WAR is tank, or if DRK is the best DD

Yeah! That was me!

On the actual topic, I don't think the nerf to Restraint is going to be all that detrimental. Sure, we won't see the damage we've been seeing, but we still do phenominal damage as is.

[Leonlionheart]

You know what I don't understand...

Restraint get's gimped, which causes our WS spike damage

Impetus, which is incredibly over powered, is left alone

[Taint2]

Leon needs an evening playing with a highend group.

[Leonlionheart]

still looking for numbers proving your sam epeen

[Babekeke]

Time for this thread to be locked. It offers nothing of interest/use anymore.

[tyrantsyn]

From what i've seen with my experiences with Voidwatch, DD survivability would go in this order :
Relic RNG > DRK(unless it's an undead mob) > DRG > WAR = SAM

Problem with this is /sam doesn't give as potent of a defensive option as main sam. And I normally see third eye drop after the first or second attack. I'm not looking for anything game breaking. Just an extra option pass defender and -pdt, dt, or mdt gear. A trade off ability "like defender,berserk", native stun move that isn't weapon based, or even a fear or terror effect added in with provoke would be nice.

[Brolic]

Problem with this is /sam doesn't give as potent of a defensive option as main sam. And I normally see third eye drop after the first or second attack. I'm not looking for anything game breaking. Just an extra option pass defender and -pdt, dt, or mdt gear. A trade off ability "like defender,berserk", native stun move that isn't weapon based, or even a fear or terror effect added in with provoke would be nice.

metatron torment

[Leonlionheart]

metatron torment

Gimping DD to gain slightly enhanced survivability when it is not necessary is bad, mmmmkay?.

[tyrantsyn]

metatron torment

I don't know if I'd want to put down my Ukon for a Bravura. Maybe if that ws got turn into something quest~able. But I'd still rather have a JA.

[Gokku]

Gear was Acerbic/Hoard/Malflame/Hermes Sandals/Dusk +1/Walahra Turban/Trainee Needle. I have 5/5 DA merits.

10450 rounds, 12204 attacks : 16.78% DA +/- .71%

Looks like WAR gets DA II. Now the question is, do I feel like figuring out exactly what level it happens at? --[B]Byrthnoth 02:19, 5 December 2011 (EST)

All Credit to Byrthnoth from BG , TL DR

WAR GETS DA 2 JOB TRAIT

[Arcon]

WAR GETS DA 2 JOB TRAIT

I was so excited when I read that... until I realized that's a 1~2% increase? I mean, I won't complain, but meh. We're 99. We should get another 5% or so. SE's fear of overpowering is ridiculous.

[Neisan_Quetz]

At least we can now say /war doesn't have the same DA trait as War main, right?

[Gokku]

Double Attack Rate: 10%

Obtained: Warrior Level 25

imma take a shot in the dark Byrth didnt have merits in. makes 0 sense for a 1-2% increase.

[Arcon]

imma take a shot in the dark Byrth didnt have merits in. makes 0 sense for a 1-2% increase.

He said he did (or more like, you said he did):


Gear was Acerbic/Hoard/Malflame/Hermes Sandals/Dusk +1/Walahra Turban/Trainee Needle. I have 5/5 DA merits.

He also edited it as a 2% increase on Double Attack's BG wiki page (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Double%20Attack). So just a little bit depressing. Although, again, not really complaining. More Double Attack is always welcome. Still meh.

[hiko]

At least we can now say /war doesn't have the same DA trait as War main, right?

/war didnt have same DA rate than war, /war cant merit DA

[Arcon]

At least we can now say /war doesn't have the same DA trait as War main, right?

/war didnt have same DA rate than war, /war cant merit DA

Two different things. And his comment was legit, seeing how often a trait or ability is gimped for a subjob. We had to sacrifice a merit item to get a bonus on a native trait that other jobs didn't have on their own.