Merton Vs Odin: What the hell SE?

[Tarage]

So, if you haven't seen the video, SCH is getting a new 2-hour only spell called Merton. Might be called Meltdown in english, I don't know. See it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvZN3rOSEHk

Point is, there are some striking similarities to what this spell does and what the Summoner 2-hour Odin does. Both are able to hit a large amount of enemies and both are capable of doing incredibly large amounts of damage. That's where the similarities end. While this spell seems to be able to take out 10 mobs out of 11. That's some pretty amazing accuracy. Odin? Odin's lucky if we can hit 5.

It's fine and all to give SCH some more tools. SCH needs something to set it apart from the other mage jobs. But if you are going to give SCH something that is almost exactly the same as Odin, why not allow us SMN to have the same accuracy? I highly doubt the SCH has to use all of their MP to do that attack. SMN does, and they get roughly half the effect.

Odin is a joke. Please throw us a bone here. At least be fair about it. And please don't give me flack that "The SCH spell doesn't kill mobs, it only damages them, while Odin can flat out kill mobs." If it misses more than it bloody hits, then it's not even worth it. An all or nothing attack that more often than not does nothing is worthless. At least make the % to hit chance based on SMN skill or something. Come on.

[Michae]

Oh come on, smn has gotten tons of good stuff and is even given new avatars with this coming update, what does sch have? Nothing. Its mainly used as a sub only and those who have it at 90 have a hard time getting a pt cause ppl lolsch the job all the time. We cant nuke as good as a blm and we are stuck with just cure IV, Sch finally gets 1 thing that makes it a worthwhile job and u wanna complain? Get over it.

[Ank]

Doesn't the sch in the video use elemental seal?
This is nothing more than an exhibition video, there's no way to determine mp cost, recast, or acc.


Not that I'm against smn buffs.

[Duelle]

Sch finally gets 1 thing that makes it a worthwhile job and u wanna complain? Get over it.First, one thing making the job worthwhile is bad in the long run. Secondly, the OP does have a point. SMN getting a high damage spell with a high miss chance that requires Astral Flow, then SCH getting something similar that doesn't seem to have the stupidly high miss chance but can be AoE'd through strategem use. I'd venture to say there is a chance SMN got short-changed here. Business as usual, either way. =/

[Arcon]

And to clarify, it's not natively AoE, it's just a dark magic spell, which can be made AoE by using Manifestation. It's a weird thing to complain about, besides, SMN still have Alexander.

[Tannlore]

I'm happy for this update as a 90 SCH but shocked.... After our Modus Veritas got hit when groups of sch could do this -very- -same- -thing- on single targets. They give it back to us, in the form of a castable spell.... and it can be AoEd? Ha!! Awesome :) <3 this SE sooooo much! Can't wait to start casting this on my SCH all over the place. Who need Meteor? (... okay I do)

However, Tarage has a point too and I do want to point out he's not saying to take it away from SCH. He's asking for a look over on Odin's 2hr. A valid concern considering the difference between the two. One is a castable spell (be it we don't know the cost/re-cast time) vs. an all or nothing attack that eats all available mp, is horribly inaccurate (good luck hitting more than 4 mobs), and can't be used again for 2hrs (build those pearl/azure lights!).

Also, do I eyes deceive me... but after that Merton devastated those mandies... The one still alive kept beating on the galka and not the SCH. Maybe the spell has a miss chance like Odin after all (Be it a much, muuuuch lower miss rate). Or just generates almost no hate... or the mandy flat out resisted :D Darn them for not showing logs!

[Razushu]

Oh come on, smn has gotten tons of good stuff and is even given new avatars with this coming update, what does sch have? Nothing. Its mainly used as a sub only and those who have it at 90 have a hard time getting a pt cause ppl lolsch the job all the time. We cant nuke as good as a blm and we are stuck with just cure IV, Sch finally gets 1 thing that makes it a worthwhile job and u wanna complain? Get over it.

Who's saying lolSCH? I've yet to encounter that once, SCH works great from what I've seen. Of course you can't nuke as good as a BLM you heal much better than they do, and no one but WHM gets > Cure IV. I've no problem with SCH getting a 2hr, that works very similar to our own, but I do take issue with the fact it will likely a) Be much more effective b) cost less c) usable more than once over the course of one 2hr.

[Michae]

I still say that sch has gotten the short end of the stick since day1. Dont complain cause it gets 1 thing thats even somewhat comparable to a diff job and might even make it (gasp) sought after. We must also not forget sublimation. Isnt that too much like rdm refresh? Is it not fair to the rdm that sch has 1 thing simular to the thing thats almost exclusively rdm? Oh wait blu has it now too, theres another thing to add to ur complaint.

If you want to complain that this ability is too smnish that then make urself comfortable cause se is blurring the lines of the jobs big time lately and you have alot of letters to write. (thank god you already have on a diaper, or at least I assume you do)

[Yukichibi]

In the video, the SCH use manifestation to make it AOE, thus paying 2x the MP cost of the spell.
Odin is just a toy, Perfect Defense is the a real 2 hours, making 6 people invincible to all damage, up to 90 seconds.

[Ank]

Hey who knows, maybe brave will suck.

Then sch and smn will be like counterparts.

Yeah.

[Michae]

Who's saying lolSCH? I've yet to encounter that once, SCH works great from what I've seen. Of course you can't nuke as good as a BLM you heal much better than they do, and no one but WHM gets > Cure IV. I've no problem with SCH getting a 2hr, that works very similar to our own, but I do take issue with the fact it will likely a) Be much more effective b) cost less c) usable more than once over the course of one 2hr.

It happen, when I took sch from 1-75 it was ok due to sublimation being close enough to refresh that ppl liked having a sch. But since sch got stuck in the mud, getting it from 75-90 was a lil more difficult. I would ask to go on a dyna run or aby run or salvage or whatever as sch and always got the lolsch no thanks reply. Even in a standard pt, I would hear, No Id rather have a whm or rdm (the rdm part makes no sense to me since they have just cure 4 too but -shrug-) Maybe its my server? When I actually did get a pt ppl would tell me I changed their opinion of sch since I was a mean heal machine

[Tannlore]

It happen, when I took sch from 1-75 it was ok due to sublimation being close enough to refresh that ppl liked having a sch. But since sch got stuck in the mud, getting it from 75-90 was a lil more difficult. I would ask to go on a dyna run or aby run or salvage or whatever as sch and always got the lolsch no thanks reply. Even in a standard pt, I would hear, No Id rather have a whm or rdm (the rdm part makes no sense to me since they have just cure 4 too but -shrug-) Maybe its my server? When I actually did get a pt ppl would tell me I changed their opinion of sch since I was a mean heal machine

Sounds to me like a problem with the people you play with rather than the job (though SCH has it's problems... and what job doesn't have them?) I play SCH plenty outside of Abyssea and have little to no issues with it as a main nuker or a cure machine.

If the people you hang out with don't let you play the jobs you enjoy: this is the issue.

[Alhanelem]

Although SCH is still a solid job, the new stuff it's gotten with the cap increases has been mostly underwhelming.

For the record: The spell is called Merton, and will be called Merton. That's English, not japanese. Why would they call it "meltdown?" That sounds like something that would be fire based, and we know it's dark based; the effect doesn't look like a meltdown either.

[noodles355]

Until they show a video of Merton doing the same insane damage to NMs as Odin can, you can pipe down.

[Tannlore]

Although SCH is still a solid job, the new stuff it's gotten with the cap increases has been mostly underwhelming.

For the record: The spell is called Merton, and will be called Merton. That's English, not japanese. Why would they call it "meltdown?" That sounds like something that would be fire based, and we know it's dark based; the effect doesn't look like a meltdown either.

Ah, but underwhelming additions with the cap increases is not the providence of SCH alone sir and that is the heart of the topic at hand here no?

And for the record's record: I'll take Emperor Gestahl's name for the spell: "Melton"! :D

[Razushu]

Sounds to me like a problem with the people you play with rather than the job (though SCH has it's problems... and what job doesn't have them?) I play SCH plenty outside of Abyssea and have little to no issues with it as a main nuker or a cure machine.

If the people you hang out with don't let you play the jobs you enjoy: this is the issue.

Beat me to it lol, I was honestly unaware anyone considered SCH a loljob until this merton video was released. I've always thought SCH was great, one of the last things I did was with a SCH, we trio'ed Mictlantehcuhtli with a MNK, and they were giving us the emnity-/+ spells, nuking and keeping the MNK regained was a easy fight.

[Runespider]

In the video is pretty much showed a FC war and the SCH one shotting everything, given how easy ISL boxes are I'm assuming they wanted to try give the players another FC job?

[Tannlore]

Beat me to it lol, I was honestly unaware anyone considered SCH a loljob until this merton video was released. I've always thought SCH was great, one of the last things I did was with a SCH, we trio'ed Mictlantehcuhtli with a MNK, and they were giving us the emnity-/+ spells, nuking and keeping the MNK regained was a easy fight.

Abyssea has given people straaaange ideas about jobs. Maybe it's not Abyssea it might be something else. I'm not enough of a social expert to judge nor do I have enough statistical data on the opinion of the player base to even come close to some sort of reasonable guess. Personally I say to all those lolsch people: /BONK to you!

[Razushu]

Abyssea has given people straaaange ideas about jobs. Maybe it's not Abyssea it might be something else. I'm not enough of a social expert to judge nor do I have enough statistical data on the opinion of the player base to even come close to some sort of reasonable guess. Personally I say to all those lolsch people: /BONK to you!

Maybe it was always there, abyssea is just so predominately PUG oriented that we're hearing peoples crazy opinions, in my entire career I've never heard lolSMN(other than on the forums), in game I've only ever heard lolDNC and that was just one LS. Even my RDM friend can't get an invite for love nor money in Abyssea.

[Tannlore]

Maybe it was always there, abyssea is just so predominately PUG oriented that we're hearing peoples crazy opinions, in my entire career I've never heard lolSMN(other than on the forums), in game I've only ever heard lolDNC and that was just one LS. Even my RDM friend can't get an invite for love nor money in Abyssea.

I was in two shells that were very much of the opinion: lolSMN. Even after I showed them otherwise time and time again before and after Abyssea. I took my own advice and left after some rather unpleasant times. I'm in a much better LS now and my SMN gets quite a bit of heavy use all over the place. I am yery happy about this. But all over, people have strange opinions of jobs.. but that's all they really are: Opinions. Sometimes people forget that ya know?

[Yugl]

You want a comparison? Your Odin is like our MV. Ha!

[Alkalinehoe]

Beat me to it lol, I was honestly unaware anyone considered SCH a loljob until this merton video was released. I've always thought SCH was great, one of the last things I did was with a SCH, we trio'ed Mictlantehcuhtli with a MNK, and they were giving us the emnity-/+ spells, nuking and keeping the MNK regained was a easy fight.
Mictdkajdhwodjasdfwjl is a ridiculously easy solo on DNC and probably NIN as well. Hardly a mob to show off the finer points of SCH.

Edit: I also think OP is funny for complaining about SCH getting a powerful AoE spell/JA when BLU/WAR/BLMs have had that capability for a while now, some without the use of 2hrs as well.

[Tannlore]

Mictdkajdhwodjasdfwjl is a ridiculously easy solo on DNC and probably NIN as well. Hardly a mob to show off the finer points of SCH.

Edit: I also think OP is funny for complaining about SCH getting a powerful AoE spell/JA when BLU/WAR/BLMs have had that capability for a while now, some without the use of 2hrs as well.

Well Alkaline, I know your SCH is only 51 but can you cite a better example?

And true blu/war/blm can mass damage AoE like all get out. But none of them were quiet like a cast one spell instant KO quite like this and it smacks in the face by adding yet another job to that list. But like I said, I play SCH also I'm pretty happy about getting Merton... but I play SMN too and it's just a bit off. Too close to the avatar's 2hr for my tastes.

I've seen War cleave down tons of mobs in one cleave.. with mighty strikes. I have no problem with this, it is their 2 hour after all. My LS's Bravura geared warrior does that all the time. It's fun to watch.

Blu AoE: this has always annoyed me just a bit, but it's kinda cool and not easy to set up. Takes work to get the gear, spells, and atma to get to the point where you can do this solidly (and have competent back up). I don't really mind this either.

Technically, on the blm side... and blm should be complaining too I might add... because strange that one spell did all that. When a blm's AoE magic damage is dispersed with more targets being hit by said AoE spell. However, Merton seemed unaffected though it did get a resist/miss possibly. (not sure if this effects blue magic.. I'm admittedly a total noob when it comes to blu). Edit: You have 90 blu, maybe you can clarify this for me?


But to all my fellow summoners I will say this: we have two avatars coming and one of them is a 2hr. I would laugh if Atomos cast Merton himself on mobs, AoEd no less! No telling what we'll get with them still. So chipper up, I'll be betting Merton won't be as effective on NM/HNM as Odin is.

[Alkalinehoe]

Well Alkaline, I know your SCH is only 51 but can you cite a better example?

I dunno, mobs that are actually relevant?


And true blu/war/blm can mass damage AoE like all get out. But none of them were quiet like a cast one spell instant KO quite like this If you have a puller you can just BA + CW and insta kill. Maybe WoR to take off the stragglers. I honestly don't see the point here. BLUs can pull/kill all on their own. SMNs need a puller to use Odin (when trying to mass kill), and like you said, acc worsens on more than 5 mobs.


Blu AoE: this has always annoyed me just a bit, but it's kinda cool and not easy to set up. Takes work to get the gear, spells, and atma to get to the point where you can do this solidly (and have competent back up). I don't really mind this either.
Like I said previously, BLU's can pull/kill by themselves. It does take quite a bit of gear to get it working and some out of the way atmas. Adding a healer can certainly be beneficial and let you pull more mobs/give you an easier time pulling.


Technically, on the blm side... and blm should be complaining too I might add... because strange that one spell did all that. When a blm's AoE magic damage is dispersed with more targets being hit by said AoE spell. However, Merton seemed unaffected though it did get a resist/miss possibly. (not sure if this effects blue magic.. I'm admittedly a total noob when it comes to blu). Edit: You have 90 blu, maybe you can clarify this for me?
Magical Blue Magic can be resisted. It's pretty obvious when you see 15 5k damages in the log and one 2.5k. I have yet to see a full resist on CW, and even half resists are pretty rare.

[Leonlionheart]

Take solace in the fact that Alexander is F***ING AMAZING.

But yeah, BLU can one hit dozens, maybe hundreds of mobs in theory, but magic accuracy plays a big role in that. WAR can one hit 95% of infinity in theory, as long as they are close enough, the last 5% is the loss you would get from Accuracy capping at 95%. BLM too, can one hit massive amounts of mobs with the right atma and the right targets. SCH being able to do so with ES+Dark Arts+Tabula Rasa is nothing "over powered." On the contrary, it's quite underwhelming. Hopefully the DoT makes it usable on NMs and not only for AoE farming.

I'm much more interested in the potency of "Bravery."

[Runespider]

I've seen War cleave down tons of mobs in one cleave.. with mighty strikes. I have no problem with this, it is their 2 hour after all. My LS's Bravura geared warrior does that all the time. It's fun to watch.

Can't really say 2 hour is any limitation anymore, ISL boxes are really common.

I think one thing about about this outshining SMN is possibly that with Odin 2 hour you get a hate free AOE KO attempt, with SCH they will have hate on the ones that they don't kill. Once odin dies the hate dies with it, the sch will still have to deal with the ones left over.

[hiko]

ITT odin is the only dmg BP a smn can use under AF.
ITT SMN wont get atomos when under AF (and cait sith full time)

[Karbuncle]

This entire thread pretty much just feels like a bunch of people talking about jobs they know nothing about. A lot of misconceptions flying around.

To clear it up, both SCH and SMN are extremely limited jobs with very limited uses, and most of their uses can be done better by other jobs and job combos.

Both require attention, Merton seems nice. Stop fritzing.

[Secondplanet]

its seems almost the case for sch "anything you can do i can do better" towards smn, earthern ward anyone?

Anyways aside from that SE still hasn't released any information on new job abilities to us yet, for all we know Odin will become a summonable avatar with his 2hr ability becoming a high cost blood pact, seems unlikely but you never know. Also with the next level cap Summoning Magic cap will raise which means Odin and Alexander will become more potent and powerful.

And Karbuncle if you think Sch or Smn is limited maybe you should take your tag down.

[Neonii]

Me personally I would like to see unique stuff for both smn and sch. Both need some type of ability/whatever that are unique and useful. Sch to step on smn toes wow I hope is is a misconception. I watch other characters cleave and say wow I'd like to take out 12 mobs.

Edit: I know we are getting two new avatars but only one that we can really use, enjoy (hopefully), and play with on a regular basis. I tend to think of the two hour avatars as just that a two hour ability. I like avatars I can play with all the time. The two hour ones are so limited. Outside of special areas I would have to wait up to six hours to use them in a row. I realize it would not be practical but it would have been kinda cool visually to walk around with a maw floating behind me. I think Odin has awesome graphics but when I use him he is gone to fast to really enjoy them.

[Korpg]

By the looks of it, both are Dark elemental, both would have the same accuracy standpoint (since the SCH in the video used Elemental Seal on the scorp before using it), and both wouldn't do much on actual NMs.

Yeah, if you are farming TEs or Gold Boxes, both would be underwelmed by other jobs that can do the job without the use of 2 hour, but it does give SCH something. What did they have to use before this video was made that they could TE farm in abyssea? Nothing.

I still want to see the potency of Brave though, it might make SCH wanted again.

[Neonii]

By the looks of it, both are Dark elemental, both would have the same accuracy standpoint (since the SCH in the video used Elemental Seal on the scorp before using it), and both wouldn't do much on actual NMs.

Yeah, if you are farming TEs or Gold Boxes, both would be underwelmed by other jobs that can do the job without the use of 2 hour, but it does give SCH something. What did they have to use before this video was made that they could TE farm in abyssea? Nothing.

I still want to see the potency of Brave though, it might make SCH wanted again.

What do you use to T.E. farm on smn solo? I'm curious as if there is something I missed.

[Ophannus]

Tabula Rasa lasts 60 seconds. Astral Flow is 3 minutes. Next!

[Dreamin]

Tabula Rasa lasts 60 seconds. Astral Flow is 3 minutes. Next!

You clearly doesnt' know that summoning Odin will instantly cancels AF. So yes, AF CAN be 3min but if you use Odin or Alexander, it's game over until you reset your 2hr. In your words, TR 60 seconds, Odin/Alexander, Instant. Next!

[Economizer]

Oh come on, smn has gotten tons of good stuff and is even given new avatars with this coming update, what does sch have? Nothing. Its mainly used as a sub only and those who have it at 90 have a hard time getting a pt cause ppl lolsch the job all the time. We cant nuke as good as a blm and we are stuck with just cure IV, Sch finally gets 1 thing that makes it a worthwhile job and u wanna complain? Get over it.

Scholar should never and will never be as good as Black Mage or White Mage again. Get over it.


Beat me to it lol, I was honestly unaware anyone considered SCH a loljob until this merton video was released. I've always thought SCH was great, one of the last things I did was with a SCH, we trio'ed Mictlantehcuhtli with a MNK, and they were giving us the emnity-/+ spells, nuking and keeping the MNK regained was a easy fight.

That's because the job is actually useful. You wouldn't believe how many Scholars in the Scholar forums won't be happy until they can cure as good as a White Mage can and dismiss anything you say "because White Mage has Cure VI" like it is an actual argument. Regardless of any actual issues with the job, the majority of them don't ask for useful, unique abilities, because they just want their job to be Dark Arts -> replace Black Mage, Light Arts -> replace White Mage with a bit of Stratagem -> replace Red Mage on the side.

Also, acting like other jobs don't have valid complaints is real mature too. But I shouldn't judge the Scholar class based on what the most noticeable and whiny parts of the community that plays it does.

I'm all for Scholar getting more and more unique abilities rather then just being a copy of 2-3 jobs depending on what Arts it is using. A potent healing helix could possibly deal with their healing woes, and of course, the possibility of tier 2 Helixes, and spells that change the conditions of the battlefield. Everyone deserves a plethora of new toys.

As for all the Summoners complaining, Scholar is already a useful FC support class already, since a Red Mage can cover someone doing AOE WS by Phalanx + Cure IV, Scholar can too. Buffing this so they can do an AOE nuke like Black Mage once every two hours doesn't seem unreasonable.

Shoot, even if the Scholar merits Dagger, subs Red Mage, and uses a combination of Phalanx, Aeolian Edge, and Merton to self farm in Abyssea, what is wrong with this? Some jobs are already capable of solo chest farm.

Perhaps Odin deserves a boost, at least in Abyssea. Maybe on mobs that it "misses" that aren't NMs it could do 9999 damage (resistable?). Of course, until a proposed buff like this is set in place, don't forget about your other summons...

[Dew]

Why are people even comparing Schs Metron to Odin? Odin KO's mobs it hits and dmgs nms. Metron from that video does dmg and dot. They aren't similar and smn is in no way, shape, or form similar to a sch. People need to quit QQing and get over it. Always something people cry about when something else gets this or that.

[Dallas]

I stand corrected. There are SMN who will defile a SCH's oatmeal, even when its the only oatmeal they have seen since L75.

[Dreamin]

No QQ'ing here. Just want to clarify things when people who clearly has no idea what they're talking about try to act like they know everything.

Personally, I'm glad that SCH gets something that can be useful. I played way too many different jobs depending on what it is that I'm doing and each job does have its advantages and disadvantages. The only job(s) that I ever make fun of are DRKs and PUPs because I know friends who love those jobs and making fun of them is part of my job and makes playing fun (sometimes).

[Korpg]

What do you use to T.E. farm on smn solo? I'm curious as if there is something I missed.

I haven't done a TE farm as SMN in a very long time.

Unless you cap Azure on Emp squids or clinoids, you won't be soloing TE. But I have a lot of stones so I don't really need to worry about wasting them when I solo in Abyssea.

[Elexia]

I've yet to see a SMN use Odin lately because the novelty wore off by now. Get over it. "Oh noes a job got something good that's similar to my toy boo hoo hooo!" is the cancer that kills MMORPGs. Quit it.

[Korpg]

I've yet to see a SMN use Odin lately because the novelty wore off by now. Get over it. "Oh noes a job got something good that's similar to my toy boo hoo hooo!" is the cancer that kills MMORPGs. Quit it.

Until Odin can do better than max 10% of the mobs health at 100% of the mob's health only, Odin will just take a back seat for Astral Flow to Alexander.

Merton looks good and useful. I wonder if they are going to have the same effect on NMs or are they going to be resisted to heck and back?

[Elexia]

Until Odin can do better than max 10% of the mobs health at 100% of the mob's health only, Odin will just take a back seat for Astral Flow to Alexander.

Merton looks good and useful. I wonder if they are going to have the same effect on NMs or are they going to be resisted to heck and back?

Knowing SE, depending on the actual strength and duration of the DoT it'll likely take a very large hit or flatout resisted against NMs, probably not Requiem resisted (is Sonic Damage really that godly? >.>) but probably helix styled resistance.

[Tsuneo]

Knowing SE, depending on the actual strength and duration of the DoT it'll likely take a very large hit or flatout resisted against NMs, probably not Requiem resisted (is Sonic Damage really that godly? >.>) but probably helix styled resistance.
If Merton is similar to helices in regards to the accuracy, I hope the duration is at least decent at least. If the duration is a decent amount of time then at least it could be elemental sealed, but if its a short duration you would have an elemental seal for the first cast and then getting resisted like crazy for the remainder of Tabula Rasa. Perhaps it won't be similar to helices or so I hope.

[Karbuncle]

I've yet to see a SMN use Odin lately because the novelty wore off by now. Get over it. "Oh noes a job got something good that's similar to my toy boo hoo hooo!" is the cancer that kills MMORPGs. Quit it.

Sorry for a page back bump.

If they turned around and gave WAR an A- Scythe/Greatsword Skill and all Scythe Weaponskills, You wouldn't complain or be a teeny upset?

Or if they happen to give Absorb Spells to RDM? and Dread Spikes to BLM? You'd be fine if suddenly your job had nothing unique anymore?

For the record, I don't care about the Merton complaining, The only similarities it has to Odin is that its a 2hr only and dark based, nothing more. I'm just trying to point out everyone has a weak spot when it comes to jobs.
.
The idea of being upset over Merton being a dark based nuke (which is where the similarities between it and odin in) is illogical to me, But I'd be hypocritical of me to think I might not go there if they did something similar with my favorite job, and you'd be lying to yourself if you can't say you wouldn't be upset if your favorite job lost something unique.

[Korpg]

Sorry for a page back bump.

If they turned around and gave WAR an A- Scythe/Greatsword Skill and all Scythe Weaponskills, You wouldn't complain or be a teeny upset?

Or if they happen to give Absorb Spells to RDM? and Dread Spikes to BLM? You'd be fine if suddenly your job had nothing unique anymore?

For the record, I don't care about the Merton complaining, The only similarities it has to Odin is that its a 2hr only and dark based, nothing more. I'm just trying to point out everyone has a weak spot when it comes to jobs.
.
The idea of being upset over Merton being a dark based nuke (which is where the similarities between it and odin in) is illogical to me, But I'd be hypocritical of me to think I might not go there if they did something similar with my favorite job, and you'd be lying to yourself if you can't say you wouldn't be upset if your favorite job lost something unique.

Lets not forget that, because it is dark based, it will be resisted by a lot on NMs that are dark based.

[Elexia]

Sorry for a page back bump.

If they turned around and gave WAR an A- Scythe/Greatsword Skill and all Scythe Weaponskills, You wouldn't complain or be a teeny upset?


Nope, because WAR is supposed to have great skill in pretty much every weapon which is why they can use almost every weapon pretty well but they don't have access to the decent Scythes that exist. WAR can use all GSD weaponskills currently except for Sickle Moon, Spinning Slash and Torcleaver and only a handful of points under an unmerited DRK (B+ versus A-).


Or if they happen to give Absorb Spells to RDM? and Dread Spikes to BLM? You'd be fine if suddenly your job had nothing unique anymore?

Considering they won't and it's well known Absorb spells need a boost, I wouldn't complain either, because DRK has been getting the shaft since 2003 so it would be nothing new. DRK has nothing that defines it or makes it unique, Dread Spikes is great, but they'd sooner give BLM a MP recovery Spike like in XIV than they would Dread Spikes. The only time I've ever seen something unique go to another job was when the cap raised and everyone had access to things like Quick Draw and Convert. I can even gank Fan Dance, Yonin/Innin from mobs that happens to absorb it on my BLU, so it's really nothing to complain about because a lot of jobs still use their unique abilities better than it being subbed for example because chances are it can be enhanced only by the main job.

Just crying over another job that gets something and saying it takes away from a job is ridiculous and why MMORPGs die a slow painful death job balance wise.

[Alhanelem]

Ah, but underwhelming additions with the cap increases is not the providence of SCH alone sir and that is the heart of the topic at hand here no?

And for the record's record: I'll take Emperor Gestahl's name for the spell: "Melton"! :D
I guess my intended message was "Just because a job is good does not mean it deserves crappy updates." New stuff isn't added just to balance the jobs, it's also to spice them up.


Until Odin can do better than max 10% of the mobs health at 100% of the mob's health only, Odin will just take a back seat for Astral Flow to Alexander.Against most of the mobs you'd use it against where it inflicts damage, the maximum is 9999, which I hit pretty often; I'm pretty sure the max is 20% not 10%; because I've done over 12000 damage to king behemoth (with bonuses and I'm pretty sure he doesn't have 100,000 HP. Odin doesn't always take a backseat, either. If you don't really need alexander, then you may as well use Odin, since chances are good it will do more damage than the other 2hours with less fuss.

[Karbuncle]

Just crying over another job that gets something and saying it takes away from a job is ridiculous and why MMORPGs die a slow painful death job balance wise.

I disagree. Giving no job anything unique and, as such, dishing out anything considered "unique traits" to every job is what would kill a game. If there's no unique aspects to any job, there's no reason to level any job but the one that does it the best. You'll lose more people that way.

One person in a thousand might level a job anyway for fun, but even for them (you) the fun would eventually wear off.

I can't say i believe you when you say you'd be perfectly content with your favorite job becoming absolutely worthless because it slowly lost all of its unique traits, But I have no way to prove it otherwise. So i must accept it. However i will remain skeptical.

[Dallas]

I've yet to see a SMN use Odin lately because the novelty wore off by now. Get over it. "Oh noes a job got something good that's similar to my toy boo hoo hooo!" is the cancer that kills MMORPGs. Quit it.

Novelty is not gone, but they might as well have given this Merlot spell to Santa. SCH don't exist either.

[Korpg]

Dallas....why?

Why do you have to come to a thread and crap it up with your personal musing that nobody wants to hear, and is also completely false? I know you are being sarcastic, but damn man, you don't even need to be here. The topic is not melee SMN, so why do you feel like you have to chime in on this?

[Elexia]

I disagree. Giving no job anything unique and, as such, dishing out anything considered "unique traits" to every job is what would kill a game. If there's no unique aspects to any job, there's no reason to level any job but the one that does it the best. You'll lose more people that way.

One person in a thousand might level a job anyway for fun, but even for them (you) the fun would eventually wear off.

I can't say i believe you when you say you'd be perfectly content with your favorite job becoming absolutely worthless because it slowly lost all of its unique traits, But I have no way to prove it otherwise. So i must accept it. However i will remain skeptical.

My favorite job is Corsair which already lost it's unique ability however it's still best used by Corsairs. Didn't summoners already lose their unique trait and abilities? I'm pretty sure since 2002 I could sub summoner and cast avatars, that's unique to the job.

What kills games is when one job gets something and someone else complains they want the same or better, they then get its and another job complains they want the same or even better then they suddenly start a tug-o-war of balance and why XI was one of the few MMOs that actually had decent job balance, because games like WoW their company always caved into the pressure and some jobs go from useful to near worthless every other patch because of players crying over spilled milk.

[Demonicpagan]

I must have missed this somewhere, but where was it said that this would be a 2HR ability?

[Elexia]

I must have missed this somewhere, but where was it said that this would be a 2HR ability?

In the manifesto, a spell/ability only usable under the effect of Tabula Rasa.

[Karbuncle]

My favorite job is Corsair which already lost it's unique ability however it's still best used by Corsairs. Didn't summoners already lose their unique trait and abilities? I'm pretty sure since 2002 I could sub summoner and cast avatars, that's unique to the job.

What kills games is when one job gets something and someone else complains they want the same or better, they then get its and another job complains they want the same or even better then they suddenly start a tug-o-war of balance and why XI was one of the few MMOs that actually had decent job balance, because games like WoW their company always caved into the pressure and some jobs go from useful to near worthless every other patch because of players crying over spilled milk.

If we can learn one thing, Its the Devs feel they know whats best for each job, and our kicking our feet is never going to change their opinion or their plans for those jobs. Don't get me wrong, They listen to us on a lot of things, and I'm truly grateful.

But, i feel Its pretty much like this, They have a list of all the things they're giving each job from now, to 99, and nothing is changing that, and they won't add to it. This is my opinion, So don't worry there!

Though, truly, I would stop playing this game if no job had anything truly unique, it would be boring as hell, I might as well be playing Dynasty Warriors if i wanted to pick up a game where everyone had the same stuff. Uniqueness is what makes choosing different classes fun, and playing those different jobs.

Anyway, Carry on :)

(Don't get me wrong, Fking love Dynasty Warrior games >_> just using it as an example)

[Tannlore]

In the manifesto, a spell/ability only usable under the effect of Tabula Rasa.

It was said in the manifesto, but did we see the scholar use Tabula Rasa during the video? I'm okay with it either way, my SCH will get the spell and cast it happily regardless. However, unless you've seen come actual confirmation that this is the spell that activates through use of 2hr don't jump too far into it. Though this would be the spell to do that with.

[Elexia]

It was said in the manifesto, but did we see the scholar use Tabula Rasa during the video? I'm okay with it either way, my SCH will get the spell and cast it happily regardless. However, unless you've seen come actual confirmation that this is the spell that activates through use of 2hr don't jump too far into it. Though this would be the spell to do that with.

Yep it was used in the video.

[Coldbrand]

don't you worry guys, once more people get hvergelmir they'll show us how sick SMN melee DPS is and they won't even need 2 hours

[Soundwave]

I happy for SCH for Merton, if it is indeed superior to a summoners 2hour/Odin, then Odin needs an adjustment on how its used, or some other mean of adjustment not said yet.

I would really like to hear something on this matter from the devs though between Merton/Odin please.

This is not Q.Q. this is just simple feedback.

[Korpg]

don't you worry guys, once more people get hvergelmir they'll show us how sick SMN melee DPS is and they won't even need 2 hours

Better watch out, Dallas might actually take you sarcastic remark seriously and think that he is God again.

[Elexia]

I happy for SCH for Merton, if it is indeed superior to a summoners 2hour/Odin, then Odin needs an adjustment on how its used, or some other mean of adjustment not said yet.

I would really like to hear something on this matter from the devs though between Merton/Odin please.

This is not Q.Q. this is just simple feedback.

It is QQ. I guess if and when (seems more like when) BLM gets Death we'll have SMNs QQing that Odin is simply a 2hr and not a consistent being.

[Tannlore]

Yep it was used in the video.

Ah so! I missed that. Still cool and not hard to get refreshed in Abyssea at least. ISL.... go!

[Soundwave]

I'm sorry, this spell can only be casted under the effect of SCH's 2 hour?

p.s. Also Odin is Frontcone attack Merton is AoE around target?

[Elexia]

I'm sorry, this spell can only be casted under the effect of SCH's 2 hour?

p.s. Also Odin is Frontcone attack Merton is AoE around target?

Yep, they stated we're getting something specific under Tabula Rasa, this is it. What isn't known is the resistance rates versus things like NMs let alone requirements beyond Tabula Rasa, since it's not new if it's a rare/ex scroll from some quest, or if god forbid it get tossed into magians somehow.

[Malamasala]

Elexia, it is not about some other job getting the same ability, it is about someone getting a three times as good ability.

When using Odin you roughly have 100% chance to kill first mob, 50% to kill second, 25% to kill third, 12% to kill fourth, 6% to kill fifth... (exaggerated, but spot on that you'll rarely ever kill 5 monsters). In this SCH just uses its JA's and killed 10.

Average 3 monsters vs 10... 3 times the killing power. That is the issue. You can even have all my avatars on SCH, I won't care. But they better not do triple damage when used by a SCH, that will upset my balance senses. (These are like spider senses)


I've got SCH leveled myself. I haven't noticed anything negative with it at all, except that I can't sleep while main healing since I'll be in light arts mode. It is a lot of fun, I just don't have the energy to equip it well so I'm a gimp. I've actually not parsed it, but I think my gimp SCH can out-DD my maxed out SMN. Some chance of death there though.

[Soundwave]

Yep, they stated we're getting something specific under Tabula Rasa, this is it. What isn't known is the resistance rates versus things like NMs let alone requirements beyond Tabula Rasa, since it's not new if it's a rare/ex scroll from some quest, or if god forbid it get tossed into magians somehow.

Thanks, that being said I don't know why people think this thread is for complaining the OP is just asking SE to re-look at Odin if deemed necessary.

I to would like SE to reevaluate Odin and his uses. If sch can preform Odin task better I'm happy for them however Please revamp Odin.:cool:

[Korpg]

Elexia, it is not about some other job getting the same ability, it is about someone getting a three times as good ability.

When using Odin you roughly have 100% chance to kill first mob, 50% to kill second, 25% to kill third, 12% to kill fourth, 6% to kill fifth... (exaggerated, but spot on that you'll rarely ever kill 5 monsters). In this SCH just uses its JA's and killed 10.

Average 3 monsters vs 10... 3 times the killing power. That is the issue. You can even have all my avatars on SCH, I won't care. But they better not do triple damage when used by a SCH, that will upset my balance senses. (These are like spider senses)


I've got SCH leveled myself. I haven't noticed anything negative with it at all, except that I can't sleep while main healing since I'll be in light arts mode. It is a lot of fun, I just don't have the energy to equip it well so I'm a gimp. I've actually not parsed it, but I think my gimp SCH can out-DD my maxed out SMN. Some chance of death there though.

Just stop typing. You don't know the difference between damage and an enfeeble, and how resist rates effect both of them differently. Yes, Death is an enfeeble, since it is cast on the mob and doesn't do damage, but instead it gives the mob a status effect (Mob receives the effect of KO). Stop trying to convince people that you know what you are talking about when you make a post like this.

[Elexia]

Elexia, it is not about some other job getting the same ability, it is about someone getting a three times as good ability.

When using Odin you roughly have 100% chance to kill first mob, 50% to kill second, 25% to kill third, 12% to kill fourth, 6% to kill fifth... (exaggerated, but spot on that you'll rarely ever kill 5 monsters). In this SCH just uses its JA's and killed 10.

Average 3 monsters vs 10... 3 times the killing power. That is the issue. You can even have all my avatars on SCH, I won't care. But they better not do triple damage when used by a SCH, that will upset my balance senses. (These are like spider senses)


I've got SCH leveled myself. I haven't noticed anything negative with it at all, except that I can't sleep while main healing since I'll be in light arts mode. It is a lot of fun, I just don't have the energy to equip it well so I'm a gimp. I've actually not parsed it, but I think my gimp SCH can out-DD my maxed out SMN. Some chance of death there though.

It didn't use a JA, it used it's 2 hour, just like SMN has to. No one knows anything about this spell beyond that it's powerful and leaves a DoT. We don't know the resist rates, we don't know the MP cost, we don't know what affects it's accuracy yet, we don't know how to obtain it etc.

Everything is balanced, in order to get Odin you have to be decently far in the ToAU storyline if not complete, then as you said, there's accuracy issues given that 1 mob is almost always guaranteed, while groups it goes down in accuracy. That's balance.

I've seen BLMs solo the worm camp including megamaw and no one is crying foul >.>.

[Korpg]

btw, the first hit isn't 100% death, there has been a lot of times where the first hit missed but the other hits actually killed the mobs.

Also, there has been times where, when using Zantentsuken on one mob, it still missed.

[Soundwave]

btw, the first hit isn't 100% death, there has been a lot of times where the first hit missed but the other hits actually killed the mobs.

Also, there has been times where, when using Zantentsuken on one mob, it still missed.

How much MP did that person have?

[Korpg]

How much MP did that person have?

I had 100% MP (just got 2hr chest and Zantentsuken only hit one mob and still wiffed).

[Soundwave]

I had 100% MP (just got 2hr chest and Zantentsuken only hit one mob and still wiffed).

Eeeek><; I dunno what to say to that. Was Odin wearing a blindfold?:rolleyes:

[Tannlore]

Eeeek><; I dunno what to say to that. Was Odin wearing a blindfold?:rolleyes:

I've had this happen on single mobs too. 100% MP, 454 smn skill, oodles os avatar acc/magic acc gear... anything to try and help....swing and a miss!

Maybe the mob did a /kneel motion and we didn't know? :D

[Soundwave]

haha, nice!

[Septimus]

Comparing Odin to Merton is like comparing apples to oranges. They are cosmetically similar (both need two-hour, both are darkness-based) but have incredibly different mechanics. (Odin is a low chance of death, Merton is single-target direct-damage with a DoT that can be converted to AoE with Manifestation.) Yes, Odin should be improved for both normal monsters and NMs, but Merton isn't the Dev Team giving a SMN ability to another job.

If they gave SCH the ability to cast Death with Tabula Rasa, allowed it to be used with Manifestation, and it didn't have terrible magic accuracy, then yes SMNs would have the right to be miffed about it. But if this makes you mad, you should also be mad at BLMs for having AoE nukes that they can cast that don't require their two-hours. And if that makes you mad, you probably need therapy.

The other thing that I noticed in this thread is that people are talking about Abyssea as if it is still going to be the focus of the game after this next update. I love Abyssea, but Abyssea is over- for better or for worse the new focus of the game is now Voidwatch.

[Soundwave]

Again I don't think "most" people are q.q'ing.....they are just saying SE can you please look at Odin?

[Ank]

Again I don't think "most" people are q.q'ing.....they are just saying SE can you please look at Odin?

Then do so without griping about others.

[Sasaraixx]

I agree that Odin needs some work but that has nothing to do with SCH. Shiva has been the clearly superior choice for aoe killing in Abyssea for a long time anyway. BLU, BLM and WAR are better as well inside of Abyssea. Outside of Abyssea, you'd probably better of using Alexander in most cases.

I don't think Merton and Odin are really all that similar. We also know absolutely nothing about that spell. It looks powerful? Buy the SCH in the video was decked out. She was in Abyssea so might have had atmas and the mobs were not high level. We know nothing about the accuracy, mp cost, recast time or dot effect.

I was and am still more curious about Brave because I think SCH will get more use out of it. I'm very wary that the would give us a truly powerful and useful nuke.

Great animation though!!

[Malamasala]

Just stop typing. You don't know the difference between damage and an enfeeble, and how resist rates effect both of them differently. Yes, Death is an enfeeble, since it is cast on the mob and doesn't do damage, but instead it gives the mob a status effect (Mob receives the effect of KO). Stop trying to convince people that you know what you are talking about when you make a post like this.

So let me get this straight. You are claiming that Death is a NORMAL enfeeble, and that if you pull 100 monsters, 50 will die? Because I, who am a very dumb Summoner who shouldn't post, were under the impression SE coded the attack to have less success the more targets were in range.


The accuracy of this ability is dependent on the number of targets within range.

Wiki on the other hand seem to agree with me.

Bringing me back to my point. SCH is getting some kind of unrestricted AOE death ball move, and SMN has a restricted target number attack.

Naturally I'm not saying SCH can't get this, it is rather that the SMN restriction should be removed if they do.

[Elexia]

Comparing Odin to Merton is like comparing apples to oranges. They are cosmetically similar (both need two-hour, both are darkness-based) but have incredibly different mechanics. (Odin is a low chance of death, Merton is single-target direct-damage with a DoT that can be converted to AoE with Manifestation.) Yes, Odin should be improved for both normal monsters and NMs, but Merton isn't the Dev Team giving a SMN ability to another job.

If they gave SCH the ability to cast Death with Tabula Rasa, allowed it to be used with Manifestation, and it didn't have terrible magic accuracy, then yes SMNs would have the right to be miffed about it. But if this makes you mad, you should also be mad at BLMs for having AoE nukes that they can cast that don't require their two-hours. And if that makes you mad, you probably need therapy.

The other thing that I noticed in this thread is that people are talking about Abyssea as if it is still going to be the focus of the game after this next update. I love Abyssea, but Abyssea is over- for better or for worse the new focus of the game is now Voidwatch.

Voidwatch..that thing mostly no one does beyond Japanese? Because it's basically a glorified R.N.G with a slight challenge? Sorry but Abyssea is here to stay, especially if you want to level beyond 90 lol.

Not to mention the stagger system introduced with Abyssea seems to be appearing everywhere....so...

[Soundwave]

Then do so without griping about others.

Griping about others, very good.

[Malamasala]

And if that makes you mad, you probably need therapy.

Actually, what always get me mad is people that use "is like comparing apples to oranges." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges)

The basic problem of the expression is that if you can't compare apples and oranges, while both are fruit. Then you can't compare green apples and red apples, while both are apples. Because the rule is that they can not be different types (type fruit or type apple). You are however allowed to compare a green apple to a green apple. Or in the case of FFXI, you can compare WAR to WAR, or SCH to SCH. Don't even think of mixing jobs.

So in the future, it is much easier to just say "Shut up" than to tell people they aren't allowed to compare things because you say so.

[Ank]

With the advent of further two hour adjustments, I think its time that SE relooked at SMN's special two hour summon Odin. Even though his special effect is a death spell that will one shot a monster regardless of its hp, his accuracy -especially in regards towards multiple monsters- is incredibly bad. In comparison to the aoe damage that other summons can output with the same two hour it seems very lackluster, and could use a huge boost or some kind of consideration.


Or we can be "that guy" that "complains" about "merton".

[Cymmina]

Buy the SCH in the video was decked out. She was in Abyssea so might have had atmas and the mobs were not high level. We know nothing about the accuracy, mp cost, recast time or dot effect.

That SCH was not appropriately geared for dealing damage. Full Empyrean armor (with no idea on if it is NQ/+1/+2) and the Empyrean staff. Only the body and feet are appropriate full time nuking pieces. The head (Ebullience not used in video), legs, and weapon may have been nothing and it would have had the same effect.

I can 1shot many trash mobs in Abyssea as a SCH, maybe that needs to be "adjusted" too.

[Soundwave]

I love hypocrites.

I feel bad for the ones who do complain about Merton, I'm happy that SE has answered Scholars calls though feedback etc. I'm glad SE is listening well to the community.

[SpankWustler]

Bob's house is on fire. His neighbor Bill's house is also on fire, although to a lesser extent.

Instead of calling the fire department, Bob enters a state of berserk rage. He begins siphoning the gasoline from his own car and tossing it on Bill's house. He runs back into his burning abode just to grab a beach towel and fan the flames on Bill's house. Instead of shouting for help, he screams ancient pagan prayers to the forgotten God of Fire to further incinerate Bill's house.

At no point does it occur to Bob that leaving Bill's house well enough alone and calling the fire department would be a smart move. Bob is pretty stupid.

[Korpg]

So let me get this straight. You are claiming that Death is a NORMAL enfeeble, and that if you pull 100 monsters, 50 will die? Because I, who am a very dumb Summoner who shouldn't post, were under the impression SE coded the attack to have less success the more targets were in range.


Where did you get that 100/50 part? It is an enfeeble (look at the log, the mob is hit with the effect of KO). Yes, what you said about the more mobs = lower % of it hitting is right, but that is common knowledge since SE said so themselves that Odin's ability would do that. Pointing it out and complaining that SCH has a spell that does damage with a high DoT effect is basically hurting SMN is the stupid part of your argument. But you are right, you shouldn't be posting.


Bringing me back to my point. SCH is getting some kind of unrestricted AOE death ball move, and SMN has a restricted target number attack.

Naturally I'm not saying SCH can't get this, it is rather that the SMN restriction should be removed if they do.

Why aren't you complaining that BLMs have the ability to one-shot any/all non-NM mobs also? It is called, you know, casting a spell, but you are basically asking that both SCH and BLM shouldn't have this ability to cast damaging spells because Odin can't kill all mobs with his 2hr.

And what I said is not an assumption, you just said that in the above quote. You like to assume things and accuse me of assuming things too which you have just been proven wrong.

How about you stop posting until you find something positive to post about?

[Soundwave]

Bob's house is on fire. His neighbor Bill's house is also on fire, although to a lesser extent.

Instead of calling the fire department, Bob enters a state of berserk rage. He begins siphoning the gasoline from his own car and tossing it on Bill's house. He runs back into his burning abode just to grab a beach towel and fan the flames on Bill's house. Instead of shouting for help, he screams ancient pagan prayers to the forgotten God of Fire to further incinerate Bill's house.

At no point does it occur to Bob that leaving Bill's house well enough alone and calling the fire department would be a smart move. Bob is pretty stupid.

This made me rofl, thank you!

[Leonlionheart]

Bob's house is on fire. His neighbor Bill's house is also on fire, although to a lesser extent.

Instead of calling the fire department, Bob enters a state of berserk rage. He begins siphoning the gasoline from his own car and tossing it on Bill's house. He runs back into his burning abode just to grab a beach towel and fan the flames on Bill's house. Instead of shouting for help, he screams ancient pagan prayers to the forgotten God of Fire to further incinerate Bill's house.

At no point does it occur to Bob that leaving Bill's house well enough alone and calling the fire department would be a smart move. Bob is pretty stupid.

Brilliance, though I doubt the raging SMNs will understand.

[Kari]

Actually, what always get me mad is people that use "is like comparing apples to oranges." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges)

The basic problem of the expression is that if you can't compare apples and oranges, while both are fruit. Then you can't compare green apples and red apples, while both are apples. Because the rule is that they can not be different types (type fruit or type apple). You are however allowed to compare a green apple to a green apple. Or in the case of FFXI, you can compare WAR to WAR, or SCH to SCH. Don't even think of mixing jobs.

So in the future, it is much easier to just say "Shut up" than to tell people they aren't allowed to compare things because you say so.

Let's just pick one job, make it extremely OP, and then nerf every other job to the ground.
And nobody is allowed to complain about how their job can't do as well as extremely OP job.

[Septimus]

OK, how about it is like comparing ambulances to plate tectonics? One is used to take people to the hospital, the other is responsible for the formation of contents and oceans. People are allowed to make comparisons, but they should try to at least make objective comparisons. When one job that is in desperate need of an update gets something, it is not taking away from another job that is in pretty good shape; especially when the thing given to the job is only cosmetically similar to the thing from the other job.

I fear that a lot of people who like to "compare things" on this forum were hell on wheels at Christmas time, they went though the Sears catalog after all of the gifts were opened with a spreadsheet and a calculator to make sure that not a single penny extra was spent on their siblings. And heaven help their parents if their gifts were bought on sale!


Voidwatch..that thing mostly no one does beyond Japanese? Because it's basically a glorified R.N.G with a slight challenge? Sorry but Abyssea is here to stay, especially if you want to level beyond 90 lol.

Not to mention the stagger system introduced with Abyssea seems to be appearing everywhere....so...

I mean that thing that people are going to be upset that they ignored if/when their Empyrean upgrade items come from it after the next update. What amuses me about this forum is that you have so many people who moan that Abyssea is "easy-mode", when something that is extremely challenging like Voidwatch comes along they completely ignore it. Yes, the rewards are garbage, but it exactly what people on these forums say that they want: all jobs are needed, you cannot low man it, and it is very, very hard. People here say that they want an old-school challenge, well here it is complete with the terrible rewards that those of us who have done HNMs for years are used to.

[SpankWustler]

Septimus, I would like to marry that post and make babies with it. Except, I think the physical process of me making babies with it would really gross you out. So I guess I won't!

Also, angry hoard of angry Summoners, you can console yourselves with the knowledge that Brave is very likely to be awful if Adloqium is any indication of how powerful some dude at SE thinks a Regain spell is.

[Leonlionheart]

I mean that thing that people are going to be upset that they ignored if/when their Empyrean upgrade items come from it after the next update. What amuses me about this forum is that you have so many people who moan that Abyssea is "easy-mode", when something that is extremely challenging like Voidwatch comes along they completely ignore it. Yes, the rewards are garbage, but it exactly what people on these forums say that they want: all jobs are needed, you cannot low man it, and it is very, very hard. People here say that they want an old-school challenge, well here it is complete with the terrible rewards that those of us who have done HNMs for years are used to.

Quoted for truth.

[Tarage]

Okay look, I don't want people getting the wrong idea. In no way, shape, or form do I not want Scholar to have this spell. I play Scholar. I like Scholar. I think Scholar should have the spell. I want Brave to be awesome. I am not whining because someone took away what you think I perceive as SMN's toy.

No, I'm just simply saying that Odin, while a very nice concept, needs to be fixed. And please don't give me that "Well you have Alex so you don't get to complain." Alex is a very nice toy, but also situational. Odin rarely has any situation in which he is useful. Bosses? You'd be better off burning MP on Garuda. Crowd control? Shiva, even though she is pretty weak in that. I can't think of a situation outside of some parts of Abyssea where Odin even sees play. This is Odin we're talking about. He should be badass.

We SMN have gotten a lot over the last year, yes, but we are also quite a bit behind other jobs. No, I do not ant SMN to be overbuffed because it is my favorite job. No, I don't want SMN to be able to do everything. Those are strawman arguments. I just want SMN to at least be a little bit better. Odin isn't even half as good as what this new spell appears to do. What's wrong with scaling Odin's accuracy with both MP and SMN Skill?

The point here is this. For all of you complaining about my request, how does it harm you? How does fixing this create a problem for you? If it doesn't, then stop talking and go elsewhere.

[Soundwave]

I agree with Tarage, his post did not show any threat to SCH, hes just asking SE to take another look at Odin, I dunno how else you can lay this out in text.

I think a lot of people take a form of text way differently.

Hes asking SE......

Some people are adding fuel to the fire in this thread the wrong way while its really not necessary, but hey not everybody's gonna have the same opinion and get along.....

[SpankWustler]

Your idea could be far better expressed by leaving commentary about Merton, Fire II, Paralyna, Water Shot, Hide and all other irrelevant information out of your post.

You say Odin blows like a wind tunnel while simultaneously sucking hard enough to pull a prize watermelon through a crazy straw. I agree with you. Most folks do.

Mentioning concepts not related to the themes of "Odin", "suck", or "blow" just obscures the idea you're trying to convey.

[Soundwave]

The fact is SE will read his feedback, and consider it.

The better part is....its SE choice on weather to do something or not.

[SpankWustler]

The fact is SE will read his feedback, and consider it.

I hope so. Odin needs to be re-examined if he is intended to be on par with Alexander.

I'm just pointing out that he communicated his idea very poorly and that's why the responses came out like this.

I don't even care about Scholar or Summoner, and just decided to post because the title of the thread was so ridiculous.

[Soundwave]

I hope so. Odin needs to be re-examined if he is intended to be on par with Alexander.

I'm just pointing out that he communicated his idea very poorly and that's why the responses came out like this.

I don't even care about Scholar or Summoner, and just decided to post because the title of the thread was so ridiculous.

I don't disagree with you on that, the title is a bit false.

[Lordscyon]

Sometimes leaving it as is better than change.

[Tarage]

The title is pointing out the inconsistent levels of potency in what appears to be a 2-hour spell.

[SpankWustler]

The title is pointing out the inconsistent levels of potency in what appears to be a 2-hour spell.

Wouldn't it be more logical to compare Odin's usefulness to that of Alexander, which can be seen as Odin's opportunity cost, rather than to a spell that doesn't exist yet?

Also, I'm sure Alexander is more useful than Merton will be, so it would probably be more productive for you as well. Using Merton as a yard stick, your argument is "Make Odin able to kill a bunch of Easy Prey Plantoids."

[Tarage]

At this point, I would take that, because it's a hell of a lot more useful than only hitting about 4 Easy Prey Plantoids. SE has proven they really have no damn clue how SMN is played. Stunga? Really? Stop being stupid.

[Orson]

Man people are whiners especially about pet jobs.

[Ank]

Most of us agree that odin sucks. Hell some of us agree that all astral flows suck except alexander. There's no need to put people on the defensive by trying to call them out like merton.

[Eric]

Jesus Christ, summoners are some of the most demanding players on these boards. 2hrs haven't been balanced from the start. Do you see NIN complaining because their 2HR does terrible damage, and . . . oh wait, KILLS THEM?

SCH is lacking in a lot of aspects. Let us have a cool 2HR move. It won't break the game. It won't make SMN worse. If SCH were anywhere near overpowered, it wouldn't be 18th on the Vana'diel Census list. How come we didn't hear all this moaning about Odin before the video of Merton popped up? Sure, Odin was never too great to begin with, but truth be told, some of the SMN's on this board are just green with envy. 2 hours aren't what determine whether or not a job is balanced. Just be happy that your 2 hour move isn't instant suicide.

[Korpg]

In Abyssea, the MP would be better spent on Shiva's Diamond Dust than it would be for Odin's Zantetsuken. Outside of Abyssea, as long as the mob Odin is targeting actually gets killed, then no worries.

Yeah, Odin's ability sucks, but think about it. When Odin/Alexander were introduced, what was the fastest way to get to 75? AF burns were the rage then, and SE didn't want Odin to become the choice of AFB, even though you still had to be level 75 to cast it (and therefor not AFB able). So they limited the number of mobs you can kill in a group. Which was fine, but still.

Fast forward to today, and you get Abyssea burns, which can get a level 30 to 90 within hours. So, Odin's gimpness isn't in effect because there are other ways to burn. So, they need to fix Odin's accuracy to kill more mobs because the reason why they gimped it in the first place doesn't exist anymore. Then maybe Odin will be used more often now.

[Soundwave]

Jesus Christ, summoners are some of the most demanding players on these boards. 2hrs haven't been balanced from the start. Do you see NIN complaining because their 2HR does terrible damage, and . . . oh wait, KILLS THEM?

SCH is lacking in a lot of aspects. Let us have a cool 2HR move. It won't break the game. It won't make SMN worse. If SCH were anywhere near overpowered, it wouldn't be 18th on the Vana'diel Census list. How come we didn't hear all this moaning about Odin before the video of Merton popped up? Sure, Odin was never too great to begin with, but truth be told, some of the SMN's on this board are just green with envy. 2 hours aren't what determine whether or not a job is balanced. Just be happy that your 2 hour move isn't instant suicide.

People have asked for Odin adjustment your just picking and choosing what you want to read in this thread from the looks of it.

[Eric]

People have asked for Odin adjustment your just picking and choosing what you want to read in this thread from the looks of it.
You want to show me the other 100+ post threads about how Odin needs to be fixed?

[Soundwave]

Lets be realistic, its not 100, [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] take time to read some threads, they are in the summoner job section knock yourself out man;)

[Eric]

Lets be realistic, its not 100, stop pulling numbers out of your ass and take time to read some threads, they are in the summoner job section knock yourself out man;)
100 post threads.

As in threads with 100 posts.

[Korpg]

100 post threads.

As in threads with 100 posts.

And in those threads with 100+ posts, there are 80~90 posts per 100 devoted on Dallas proclaiming that melee SMN is godly and can outdamage any/all melee while others, myself included, fall for his troll trap and try to correct him.

[Soundwave]

And in those threads with 100+ posts, there are 80~90 posts per 100 devoted on Dallas proclaiming that melee SMN is godly and can outdamage any/all melee while others, myself included, fall for his troll trap and try to correct him.

exactly lmao

[Eric]

Are you guys even reading what I'm typing? I'm asking you guys to show me other threads this large (100 posts) talking about how Odin needs to be fixed.

I'm not going to go through every single summoner thread to read how many people are talking about Odin, but a quick search of the forum for "Odin" and "Odin Summoner" doesn't come up with any relevant titles. At least not within the first page. Doesn't that say something about your claim that SMNs have always been complaining about Odin to this extent?

[Korpg]

Are you guys even reading what I'm typing? I'm asking you guys to show me other threads this large (100 posts) talking about how Odin needs to be fixed.

I'm not going to go through every single summoner thread to read how many people are talking about Odin, but a quick search of the forum for "Odin" and "Odin Summoner" doesn't come up with any relevant titles. At least not within the first page. Doesn't that say something about your claim that SMNs have always been complaining about Odin to this extent?

There are no other threads.

Although poorly worded and bad choice of topics, this thread basically is the first that requests SE to look into Odin's 2hr move into doing better accuracy on normal mobs.

[Soundwave]

Feedback was given/spread thought out other threads, yes this is the first one asking to look into Odin.

[Eric]

There are no other threads.

Although poorly worded and bad choice of topics, this thread basically is the first that requests SE to look into Odin's 2hr move into doing better accuracy on normal mobs.
Yes. That's the point I'm trying to make. Not only does the thread title imply jealousy on the OP's behalf (justified or unjustified as it may be), but instead it makes the whole thread seem like a joke.

By the logic the OP was using, I should also make a thread called "Mijin Gakure vs Merton: What the hell SE?", and then claim that the purpose of the thread is to improve NIN's 2hr, rather than to compare and try to demean improvements being made to another job?

[Soundwave]

Yes. That's the point I'm trying to make. Not only does the thread title imply jealousy on the OP's behalf (justified or unjustified as it may be), but instead it makes the whole thread seem like a joke.

By the logic the OP was using, I should also make a thread called "Mijin Gakure vs Merton: What the hell SE?", and then claim that the purpose of the thread is to improve NIN's 2hr, rather than to compare and try to demean improvements being made to another job?

I wanna see you make this thread.

Then I'll support you.:cool:

[Eric]

The original point I was trying to make is that there's no harm in letting SCH have Merton, and that Summoners shouldn't be angry, because while Odin's Astral Flow has it's problems, it wasn't as big of an issue(I'm not saying that it wasn't an issue before this)until someone saw Merton and thought "OH NO, SCH is doing something better than SMN! I demand Odin to be made on par with it!".

What some people are forgetting is that SMN can already do so many great things with Astral Flow. Merton won't change that. Not all abilities/spells/2hrs are amazing. So what?

[Soundwave]

The original point I was trying to make is that there's no harm in letting SCH have Merton, and that

I mean you no disrespect, you just didn't read this thread or any of the post I've made in this thread, knowing that would explain your quote.

however other summoners that did post in this thread are rather blunt on the situation or w/e you wanna call this.

Last I'll say it again, I'm ecstatic when I saw that video and was very happy to sch getting this type of spell. I don't even have that job to 90 and I'm more happy for it than some of the things I got on summoner, that does not in anyway change anything I would say about the job SCH.

[Tarage]

By the logic the OP was using, I should also make a thread called "Mijin Gakure vs Merton: What the hell SE?", and then claim that the purpose of the thread is to improve NIN's 2hr, rather than to compare and try to demean improvements being made to another job?

Because the two are similar. Oh wait.

Look, the reason people haven't been bitching about Odin is because we accepted that SE didn't want to give ANY job death-ga. We thought they would favor balance over everything else, and that Odin sucking was just par for the course.

Now SCH gets death-ga. Do you see the problem here? It's not about bitching to bitch. It's about being bent over the table for years, and then being told that 'we could have it worse'.

And go back to the years before SCH was even a job. You'll see SMN is low on the list.

[SpankWustler]

Now SCH gets death-ga. Do you see the problem here? It's not about bitching to bitch. It's about being bent over the table for years, and then being told that 'we could have it worse'.

You are aware that the spell wasn't used on anything that actually matters, nor anything that was likely above Decent Challenge, right? All that's known at this point is that it uses Dark Magic skill and that the initial damage is roughly on par with a good Charged Whisker or a Mightily Struck Fell Cleave.

If the formula for Merton is similar to that of Helices, the damage will drop off a cliff when used on anything with vaguely high intelligence. Even if the formula is far more forgiving than that, the spell isn't whatever you're saying it is. I'd be very surprised if isn't just as mediocre as Odin on a single Notorious Monster, if not more disappointing.

You have reason to complain. Considering it drops your MP to 0 and requires Astral Flow, Odin is extremely situational. Even times when it would be useful, the better strategy is usually "Wait and see if I unexpectedly need Alexander."

Going off half-cocked and ranting about a spell that may well be pointless once it's actually implemented isn't the best way to make a case for improvements to an avatar.

[Miera]

Do we even know much this spell is going to cost? it could be like Impact and take the majority of your MP...

[Francisco]

I wish I was SMN so I could cry with an unrivaled sense of entitlement.

I hope WHM gets a better version of Perfect Defense (alliance wide buff, gives Hastega too) so we can see some real rage.

[Korpg]

Now SCH gets death-ga.

No they don't. They get a high damage and DoT spell with a possibility of other effects, by the look of the video, bind.

The emphasis is the high damage and DoT spell. It is not an instant cast auto-death spell, it is a spell that does a lot of damage. Why are you complaining about this when BLMs have been oneshotting mobs in Abyssea for about a year now? Why aren't you complaining that BLMs are doing the exact same thing as Merton, or whatever the spell's name is now, without losing all their MP or worrying about resist? 11k damage spells on a mob is automatic one-shot on normal mobs, and a huge chunk of HP on NMs.

You have placed your anger at the wrong job, you really should be angry at WARs. They don't need a 2hr to clear our a group of mobs completely.

[Yamimarik44]

It really saddens me to see so many Summoner's cry over such useless things, Yes Odin could use a makeover and maybe it would be nice if the Devs looked over Odin again to see about acc. issues and what not, but really? really? I don't think this thread was made with the intentions of bashing SCH, no. I think it's great SCH is getting unique to their 2hr LIKE Summoner got, we got light and dark based 2hr spells only, SCH is getting the same, well to me "Hello there brother Mage, we got something unique to our 2hrs." Though Manafont and Benediction are already higher and more frequently used 2hrs then ours for multitudes of different purposes they still haven't seen a buff to their 2hr, so also be greatful there, I'm not saying SMN's aren't greatful to the buff of their 2hr, just some of you guys WHINE FAR TOO MUCH! GOD GET A GRIP!... and don't get me started "Well Odin and Alexander are 2hrs onry QQ" GUESS WHAT? We're getting Cait Sith, a NON 2hr Avatar YAY rejoice and be marry! and oh, whats this? On top of that we're getting another 2hr Avatar Atomos with I'm sure and praying to be a better usage then Odin! Yay! Weeeeeee! /donerant

[Miera]

I wish I was SMN so I could cry with an unrivaled sense of entitlement.

I hope WHM gets a better version of Perfect Defense (alliance wide buff, gives Hastega too) so we can see some real rage.

I was a SMN since late 2007, it was my first job to 75 and leveled it the lonely way. My only concerns with the job were the Elementals AI Avatars procing and getting azure lights with Magic BPs and newer more useful BPs so I don't have to keep using Garuda or Shiva. >.>

Honestly you are right, a lot of SMNs make mountains over ant hills and whine and compare the silliest things to their jobs.
And I thought PUP was the most Whiney community. ;o

[Leonlionheart]

And I thought PUP was the most Whiney community. ;o

Not since verethragna and tactical switch...

[Yugl]

If I recall correctly from Kaeko's MV testings, mobs have an internal clock for determining the tick for helices. I also recall hearing that helix ticks tend to initiate upon landing. This might suggest that the initial bar of HP we saw was actually a land and a tick.

[Tarage]

SMN has been the gimp job for YEARS. If you don't think we have a legitimate right to complain about how we have been treated, get the hell out. Go make your own bloody thread. I'm tired of dealing with people who think they can nullify an argument simply by saying 'Whine more noob'. That isn't arguing, that isn't coming up with a counter argument, that is being a 5 year old.

[Arcon]

SMN has been the gimp job for YEARS. If you don't think we have a legitimate right to complain about how we have been treated, get the hell out. Go make your own bloody thread. I'm tired of dealing with people who think they can nullify an argument simply by saying 'Whine more noob'. That isn't arguing, that isn't coming up with a counter argument, that is being a 5 year old.

And we're tired of people pulling arguments out of nowhere. You don't complain about SMN being gimp, you complain about SMN being gimp compared to SCH in a very special situation, which is more than wrong, it's uncomparable because we're not even exactly sure what the SCH ability does. And it's even more unjustified when you consider that there's several other jobs out there who do exactly what you're complaining about already.

And SMN wasn't gimp. It was unloved and unpopular for party-events, but it could solo/duo things most job combinations couldn't dream of (see Hakutaku). And SCH was quite possibly the only more unpopular job than SMN (possibly before BST). BLM was the better nuker and had -ga spells. WHM and RDM were better for merit parties and most other things because they had Haste, something that made SCH instalol for most healing/support situations.

[Yamimarik44]

SMN has been the gimp job for YEARS. If you don't think we have a legitimate right to complain about how we have been treated, get the hell out. Go make your own bloody thread. I'm tired of dealing with people who think they can nullify an argument simply by saying 'Whine more noob'. That isn't arguing, that isn't coming up with a counter argument, that is being a 5 year old.

You have no claims at all do you? You just find something you feel needs justification by your standards alone and try to make a valid point when posting a thread or on a thread. Yes Summoner is in need of updates, the entire Summoner community and other people from other Job communities agree whole heartedly, but you just come in here and want to start some sort of controversy to get others whiled up on a topic that is rather pointless Merton vs. Odin, really? Make better and more thought out valid points next time, then people might stop giving you these "degrading" comments you so loathe, but so rightfully deserve. You ask for the comments you receive, you blatantly ask for them when you act the way you do, if you have no more respect for others in a community trying to build the game and community they play on to a better one for us all, not just cater to one individual, then maybe you shouldn't post at all, and keep quiet if you have no more respect, why should anyone treat you with a shred of respect if you're always going to be so disrespectful at anything anyways?

[Neonii]

The original point I was trying to make is that there's no harm in letting SCH have Merton, and that Summoners shouldn't be angry, because while Odin's Astral Flow has it's problems, it wasn't as big of an issue(I'm not saying that it wasn't an issue before this)until someone saw Merton and thought "OH NO, SCH is doing something better than SMN! I demand Odin to be made on par with it!".

What some people are forgetting is that SMN can already do so many great things with Astral Flow. Merton won't change that. Not all abilities/spells/2hrs are amazing. So what?

Why not fix Odin and then give sch something just as awesome but more unique? Go read the job adjustments and bst is also getting something very similar to smn (the mechanics) in wild run. Their pet is going to disappear just like odin and alex. I think every job should have things that are unique and wonderful. What does smn have that's worthwhile and totally ours? Even in the cookie cutter era something needs to be done to make the jobs different and to stand out. Each job needs a signature spell or aspect that belongs solely to them.

Edit: (general not directed to Eric) I'll take the death-ga on mobs that don't matter any day. I have never once gone into a thread about a different job and scolded folks for complaining. Why are all these other jobs doing that here?

I thought this was a discussion forum where folks were free to discuss the game and any aspects of it. Why come in and try to be the thought police and make judgements about the other persons point of view? Then on top of it take the other poster personally to task because you don't agree with them? Everyone has a right to defend himself/herself. Debate is one thing judgement is another. IMO and I can only speak for myself we should be discussing the game in these forums not individuals personally.

[Ank]

then give sch something just as awesome but more unique?

What's more unique and pertinent to sch than a spell that can only be used after unlocking it with a job ability. I mean, its not like you summon shultz and he rains fire from the heavens before spinning away on an umbrella.

Deathga is neat, but sucks. Sch appreciates that. A single target dark spell that's in line with sch's use of addendums and strategems that does what appears to be a significant amount of damage is not deathga, and doesn't appreciate that.

[Malamasala]

Why are you complaining about this when BLMs have been oneshotting mobs in Abyssea for about a year now?

Think the issue is one-shotting a GROUP of monsters. And if you claim any BLM can waltz in and AOE 10+ mobs and kill them instantly today, then I guess BLM might be a bit too strong for my opinion of balance. I think you were talking single targets though, and while I only do like 80% damage with one pact, I think it is fair for BLMs to do the full 100% since they should be slightly stronger.

Less fair that I have to wait 45 seconds for next nuke though... but that is another issue.

[Miera]

What's more unique and pertinent to sch than a spell that can only be used after unlocking it with a job ability. I mean, its not like you summon shultz and he rains fire from the heavens before spinning away on an umbrella.

Deathga is neat, but sucks. Sch appreciates that. A single target dark spell that's in line with sch's use of addendums and strategems that does what appears to be a significant amount of damage is not deathga, and doesn't appreciate that.
That's like Marry Poppins on a whole new level! ;o

[Miera]

Think the issue is one-shotting a GROUP of monsters. And if you claim any BLM can waltz in and AOE 10+ mobs and kill them instantly today, then I guess BLM might be a bit too strong for my opinion of balance. I think you were talking single targets though, and while I only do like 80% damage with one pact, I think it is fair for BLMs to do the full 100% since they should be slightly stronger.

Less fair that I have to wait 45 seconds for next nuke though... but that is another issue.
You're a SMN, not a BLM. There is a difference why one can do something while another job cannot. That's like saying how come WARs can't Hundred Fists

You forget that those mobs probably check DC to T? It's easy to one shot that and if you notice, it wasn't really a one shot. It brought the mob down to 5% before the DoT spell actually took effect and this spell is only accessible through 2hour and you people complain? Ok, so lets say SE gave all these way over powering things people want for SMN to them. Gave them Death and Doom and were able to 1shot every time the Blood Pact Timer was ready Let's say they got rid of Blood pacts all together and you could Predator Claws back to back and slaughtered anything that crossed your path.

Let's say SE made SMN so godly that it made WARs MNKs and all those other Major DDs out there look like a bunch of weak sissies. Would you be here and complain they have made the job too over powered? Would you tell the Little WARs and MNKs out there to go QQ somewhere else and deal with it?

You guys are crying over a 2hour spell that probably has little to no effect on NMs..

[Merton9999]

I'll be happy when, instead of something nostalgic from well-loved FF lore, Odin's name is changed to "Odstra".

Now that would be balanced.

[Sasaraixx]

I really don't know what is so shocking about this. First, this video was in Abyssea and on weak mobs. I don't place very much faith in this. I do not expect this spell to be that powerful, nor will it do anything for SCH's problems.

And just an FYI, if my set bonus procs on BLM I could probably one shot 10 mobs in Abyssea. And let's remember again, that's where we saw this video! And I could probably do it on BLU too. It's not unbalanced given that other jobs can do the same thing, outside of their two hour.

[Sasaraixx]

And as a final note, I'm pretty disappointed with the notes. SMN and SCH are my two favorite jobs and they really didn't get much love this update. None of the great feedback that we heard was included for either job.

Here's looking forward(dreading) lv99!

[Korpg]

Think the issue is one-shotting a GROUP of monsters. And if you claim any BLM can waltz in and AOE 10+ mobs and kill them instantly today, then I guess BLM might be a bit too strong for my opinion of balance. I think you were talking single targets though, and while I only do like 80% damage with one pact, I think it is fair for BLMs to do the full 100% since they should be slightly stronger.

Less fair that I have to wait 45 seconds for next nuke though... but that is another issue.

Ok, BLM can't 1 shot a group of 10 mobs (without set proc) instantly, they can 2 shot the group of set mobs. Either way, the mobs are dead, and dead without use of all their MP, without use of 2hr, and without a chance to miss/resist alot.

You know what, WARs can kill a group of 10 mobs with 2 WSs, they get TP fast (less than 3 seconds with Retailation) and can do it safer than BLM (either way, still need a WHM healer for the WAR, but still). Why is your anger towards SCH and not other jobs that can effectively kill stuff faster than you can?

...oh wait, you want to gimp everyone down to your level....right....

[tinydog]

good maybe they can use that 2hr on worm pts

[Ank]

Admittedly mary poppins schultz is sounding good about now, but I guess I'll leave the summoning to the summoners.

[Tarage]

Again, if you don't care about SMN, just leave. I really could care less what you think of me or my arguments. I just want to fix SMN, which is just as broken, if not more, than SCH.

SCH is behind BLM and WHM, both very good jobs. SMN is behind EVERYTHING.

[Ank]

You're the one that put people on the defensive. Smn sucks on its own merits.

[Korpg]

SMN is behind EVERYTHING.

No it isn't. It is still one of the best soloing jobs in the game. SMNs can solo the hardest NMs in this game that not even BSTs will touch.

SMN is not a party intensive job, it is a job that is great for everything but not perfect for one specific thing. The nearest thing it is close to being the best at is its solo ability.

[Yamimarik44]

Again, if you don't care about SMN, just leave. I really could care less what you think of me or my arguments. I just want to fix SMN, which is just as broken, if not more, than SCH.

SCH is behind BLM and WHM, both very good jobs. SMN is behind EVERYTHING.

"Ich schleiban austa be clair es kumpent madre monstere, aus-be aus-can-be flaugen begun be uske but-bair. Ich schleiban austa be clair es kumpent uste monstere, aus-be aus-can-be flaugen, fraulein uske-be clair." This sums up this thread topic and the host of the thread in all, it's nothing but ScheiBe so keep saying all the ScheiBe you want, you're just allowing yourself to be a target for attention you so desperately want anyways...

[Zumi]

Does it really matter? FFXI has never been known for its class balance.

[Korpg]

"Ich schleiban austa be clair es kumpent madre monstere, aus-be aus-can-be flaugen begun be uske but-bair. Ich schleiban austa be clair es kumpent uste monstere, aus-be aus-can-be flaugen, fraulein uske-be clair." This sums up this thread topic and the host of the thread in all, it's nothing but ScheiBe so keep saying all the ScheiBe you want, you're just allowing yourself to be a target for attention you so desperately want anyways...

I'll take Translation of the Quote for 200, Alex.

[Soundwave]

I'll take Translation of the Quote for 200, Alex.

I'll take How many Fingers am I holding up for 400, Alex.

[Yamimarik44]

I'll take Translation of the Quote for 200, Alex.

There is no translation it is a song, and the title of the song is "Scheibe" meaning "crap" in german basically, so all I was saying was, anything that he has to say is "crap" b/c he has no grounds to stand on, and is just wanting to cause un-needed controversy and wanting attention.

[Yamimarik44]

I'll take How many Fingers am I holding up for 400, Alex.

I'll haveta say that is a rounding 1 finger? if not then it's 3, but thats a guess! lol

[Soundwave]

I'll haveta say that is a rounding 1 finger? if not then it's 3, but thats a guess! lol

lol just from a snl skit =D

[Septimus]

Again, if you don't care about SMN, just leave. I really could care less what you think of me or my arguments. I just want to fix SMN, which is just as broken, if not more, than SCH.

SCH is behind BLM and WHM, both very good jobs. SMN is behind EVERYTHING.

Obviously people who disagree with you don't play SMN, or if they do they just aren't dedicated to the job.

Irrefutable proof. (http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/d78d1684c2905261d09c10e8ff6963c2.jpg)

Could Odin be better? Yes. Is Shock Squall a terrible idea for a Blood Pact? Yes. But Summoner is not a broken, terrible job. Go do some Voidwatch on SMN and fall back in love with the job because it absolutely shines there.

[Korpg]

Obviously people who disagree with you don't play SMN, or if they do they just aren't dedicated to the job.

Irrefutable proof. (http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/d78d1684c2905261d09c10e8ff6963c2.jpg)

Could Odin be better? Yes. Is Shock Squall a terrible idea for a Blood Pact? Yes. But Summoner is not a broken, terrible job. Go do some Voidwatch on SMN and fall back in love with the job because it absolutely shines there.

Negative people only focuses on the negative aspects of a job/game/life. Tarage is a negative person, so he thinks that SMNs are getting the shaft by SCHs new 2 hour spell.

[Leonlionheart]

"I can't think of anything to complain about, so I'm going to complain that SCH get's something"

is what I read in this thread

[Yamimarik44]

"I can't think of anything to complain about, so I'm going to complain that SCH get's something"

is what I read in this thread

This is the mass majority vote, I think this is what we all read.

[Neonii]

"I can't think of anything to complain about, so I'm going to complain that SCH get's something"

is what I read in this thread

What I read is a hankering for the unique opposed to cookie cutter.

Edit: but then again I happen to be one of those folks who see the glass as half full instead of half empty.

[Dallas]

Irrefutable proof. (http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/d78d1684c2905261d09c10e8ff6963c2.jpg)

That is a disturbing picture... I hope SE gives you your rainbow staff for throwing your sanity away like that...

[Septimus]

That is a disturbing picture... I hope SE gives you your rainbow staff for throwing your sanity away like that...

Honestly, I think I put more work into getting other people Empyrean weapons than making a full set of -6 perp staves, it really isn't that hard when you have Empyrean Body and Feet to flatten out your perp cost. Besides, I played through unnerfed CoP, Square stole my sanity years ago.

[Leonlionheart]

Honestly, I think I put more work into getting other people Empyrean weapons than making a full set of -6 perp staves, it really isn't that hard when you have Empyrean Body and Feet to flatten out your perp cost. Besides, I played through unnerfed CoP, Square stole my sanity years ago.

I'm sure the staves are well worth it, and you actually free up some invintory space (though not enough probably) from not needing anything other than staff + yinyang robe for BP delay.

[Raksha]

There is no translation it is a song, and the title of the song is "Scheibe" meaning "crap" in german basically, so all I was saying was, anything that he has to say is "crap" b/c he has no grounds to stand on, and is just wanting to cause un-needed controversy and wanting attention.


I would've just posted the Hitler-flipping-out speech, but that's me.

[Tarage]

You know what, fine. If you don't think Odin needs fixing, whatever.

There is a reason this place is the joke it is. I'm done.

[Dallas]

Honestly, I think I put more work into getting other people Empyrean weapons than making a full set of -6 perp staves, it really isn't that hard when you have Empyrean Body and Feet to flatten out your perp cost. Besides, I played through unnerfed CoP, Square stole my sanity years ago.

I'm not interested because my avatars are free with Hvergelmir, but I just can't imagine trying to get kill shots with carbuncle... yuk.

[Septimus]

I'm sure the staves are well worth it, and you actually free up some invintory space (though not enough probably) from not needing anything other than staff + yinyang robe for BP delay.

Well, you really don't free up any inventory space from ability delay gear since there are 8 staves versus 1 staff for perp and 5-6 pieces of gear for ability delay. But I do get 4 MP a tick back from my Avatars and 1 MP a tick back from Elemental spirits outside of Abyssea and before any other form of refresh. That is pretty sick for Voidwatch where you can be a self-sustaining damage machine and stay very far away from the incredibly bad TP moves.


You know what, fine. If you don't think Odin needs fixing, whatever.

There is a reason this place is the joke it is. I'm done.

No one is saying that Odin doesn't need/deserve a major boost, I am sure that nearly every poster here thinks that he does. However, the majority of posters do not agree with your "no one is allowed to get anything until my demands are met" message. Kaustra and Odin are only similar on the surface, just because someone was able to kill a bunch of Easy Prey to level 95 mobs by using their two-hour AND Elemental Seal AND Manifestation it doesn't mean that the spell will have any practical value on HNMs, NMs, or anything over Even Match. I could go post a video of me using Predator Claws on a Easy Prey mob that takes of 75% of its life, does that mean that every other job should be enraged because SMN is too godly? No, because we know that there are limits to Blood Pact: Rage and that that was used against a trash mob. Same thing with Kaustra, it damaged a bunch of mobs under an incredibly specific circumstance. Let's see the video where the SCH uses Kaustra against a bunch of IT mobs, whoops the SCH just got devoured because things didn't get one-shotted.

[Septimus]

I'm not interested because my avatars are free with Hvergelmir, but I just can't imagine trying to get kill shots with carbuncle... yuk.

But for the bosses in Voidwatch, it is highly impractical for a SMN to melee. Even the Stage II bosses have tons of horrible AoE moves that can one-shot non-tanks from a moderate distance. It is important to stay far away from their nastiness, having a full compliment of perp staves so that you can try out every Avatar in case its weakness is against a specific Blood Pact.

And there is a fairly significant chance that Empyrean weapon upgrade items are going to come out of Voidwatch, so people should not feel so confident that they will be able to ignore it forever.

Carbuncle, Levianthan, and Titan were the absolute worse because they do so little damage, not to mention that the level 70 blood pacts for Titan and Leviathan love to miss. Those are the staves where it is best to bribe someone to come help melee the mobs down for you.

[Leonlionheart]

But for the bosses in Voidwatch, it is highly impractical for a SMN to melee. Even the Stage II bosses have tons of horrible AoE moves that can one-shot non-tanks from a moderate distance. It is important to stay far away from their nastiness, having a full compliment of perp staves so that you can try out every Avatar in case its weakness is against a specific Blood Pact.

And there is a fairly significant chance that Empyrean weapon upgrade items are going to come out of Voidwatch, so people should not feel so confident that they will be able to ignore it forever.

Carbuncle, Levianthan, and Titan were the absolute worse because they do so little damage, not to mention that the level 70 blood pacts for Titan and Leviathan love to miss. Those are the staves where it is best to bribe someone to come help melee the mobs down for you.

Please, don't argue with him. He has a superiority complex and several mental handicaps, so it won't do much good. He doesn't believe that SMN is a "stay back and watch it die" job but rather a "i wish i could be a war" job.

[Septimus]

Please, don't argue with him. He has a superiority complex and several mental handicaps, so it won't do much good. He doesn't believe that SMN is a "stay back and watch it die" job but rather a "i wish i could be a war" job.

I am not arguing. Arguing is entirely pointless because neither side can ever win. I am instead explaining my rational. Things that can be done in Abyssea cannot necessarily be done the same way elsewhere. Voidwatch is a very different beast, people need to get used to it or they are going to be incredibly shocked come the next update when the "good times and frequent drop rate" bus comes to a screeching stop and everyone has to load up on the "soul-crushing misery and terrible drop rate" train.

And I am very proud of that last sentence.

[Leonlionheart]

It'll become an argument, you see he doesn't have the factories to perceive common sense and rational thought.

I agree with you, either way.

[SpankWustler]

I am not arguing. Arguing is entirely pointless because neither side can ever win. I am instead explaining my rational. Things that can be done in Abyssea cannot necessarily be done the same way elsewhere. Voidwatch is a very different beast, people need to get used to it or they are going to be incredibly shocked come the next update when the "good times and frequent drop rate" bus comes to a screeching stop and everyone has to load up on the "soul-crushing misery and terrible drop rate" train.

From this day forward, my new name for a certain part of my anatomy shall be "'the soul-crushing misery and terrible drop rate' train". I don't even care that drop rate barely makes sense in that context, or that "express" would be more descriptive than just "train". It shall be what it shall be.

Which reminds me, how does Odin perform on VoidWatch monsters? Well, assuming they aren't already whittled down to 50% by the time everything has been procced... I guess that's not an ideal situation for the big guy, now that I think about it. So I guess I'd just say that I'm curious if they're immune/resistant or not.

[Korpg]

I am not arguing. Arguing is entirely pointless because neither side can ever win. I am instead explaining my rational. Things that can be done in Abyssea cannot necessarily be done the same way elsewhere. Voidwatch is a very different beast, people need to get used to it or they are going to be incredibly shocked come the next update when the "good times and frequent drop rate" bus comes to a screeching stop and everyone has to load up on the "soul-crushing misery and terrible drop rate" train.


You can't be rational to Dallas. I tried that for months and all he gets from that is his WAR complex and how he thinks that he can beat an Ukon WAR in terms of damage and survivability. I now just sit back and watch his arguments (plus, I believe he blacklisted me) and point out the flaws of his argument, the most recent one being that he can kill DC mobs melee in the same time it takes for a SMN who lets the avatar do the job kill 2 EP mobs. So, I guess the emp staff is worth it when you take twice as long to kill something a few levels below you than letting the avatar kill them.

[Dallas]

But for the bosses in Voidwatch, it is highly impractical for a SMN to melee.

The features of Hver and Magian perp staves are identical in potency when you don't use the features. Those magian staves offer -perp and -bp timer, 2 things which have been capped by other gear ever since L75. Timer gear is macro-able with no other options. -perp gear can't be replaced since a lot of it is now refresh gear, superior to -perp.

Hvergelmir at least has a regain earring for the worst situations. I'll repeat it here, since no one ever looks for it: 1 TP = 3.6 MP (1800 MP base), only with Myrkr. This is replenishing mp, superior to -perp.

Props to you for getting the staves. I don't know exactly what you will win for completing this task, but I do sincerely hope you will win that mythical rainbow staff. I just leave Hvergelmir on, and if I go somewhere "inconvenient," which is infrequent, I manually put on Soulscourge. Better damage, timer is still 45 seconds, and avatars are still free. Inventory +6-7.

[Economizer]

Which reminds me, how does Odin perform on VoidWatch monsters? Well, assuming they aren't already whittled down to 50% by the time everything has been procced... I guess that's not an ideal situation for the big guy, now that I think about it. So I guess I'd just say that I'm curious if they're immune/resistant or not.

Ignoring this entire thread, I really hope for the day where SE "forgets" to make a mob immune to Odin's death move, just so you can have a long drawn out fight with a massive mob, and a Summoner in your party uses his two hour and accidentally hits Odin instead of Alexander. The look on everyone's face will be priceless, the tale legendary, and the Summoner a hero, even if SE went and patched it later.

Too bad it is probably just "NM tag = immune to XYZ."

[Leonlionheart]

The features of Hver and Magian perp staves are identical in potency when you don't use the features. Those magian staves offer -perp and -bp timer, 2 things which have been capped by other gear ever since L75. Timer gear is macro-able with no other options. -perp gear can't be replaced since a lot of it is now refresh gear, superior to -perp.

Hvergelmir at least has a regain earring for the worst situations. I'll repeat it here, since no one ever looks for it: 1 TP = 3.6 MP (1800 MP base), only with Myrkr. This is replenishing mp, superior to -perp.

Props to you for getting the staves. I don't know exactly what you will win for completing this task, but I do sincerely hope you will win that mythical rainbow staff. I just leave Hvergelmir on, and if I go somewhere "inconvenient," which is infrequent, I manually put on Soulscourge. Better damage, timer is still 45 seconds, and avatars are still free. Inventory +6-7.


But for the bosses in Voidwatch, it is highly impractical for a SMN to melee.

the first is quoted for lolz, the second for truth

[Dallas]

So, what about -perp staves turns the resident Ukon WAR on? It doesn't matter what the situation is, you can't undo the L80 perp nerf that rendered the staves useless.

You better start campaigning against the people calling for a cait sith regain favor. That's a sure-fire way to make Hver useful even in BCNMs.

[Korpg]

That's a sure-fire way to make Hver useful even in BCNMs.

What the heck? Where did that come from? Hver isn't useful period, including BCNMs.

What are you going to do, melee Behemoth at 10% or less? I would LOVE to see you try.

[Leonlionheart]

So, what about -perp staves turns the resident Ukon WAR on? It doesn't matter what the situation is, you can't undo the L80 perp nerf that rendered the staves useless.

You better start campaigning against the people calling for a cait sith regain favor. That's a sure-fire way to make Hver useful even in BCNMs.

Well I honestly doubt they would give Cait Sith's favor, assuming regain, more than 4/tick. However that statement also assumes that Cait Sith itself is worth keeping out. Meaning it out DD's Garuda or out supports... other avatars...

At 1/tick regain, you're waiting 5 minutes for 100 TP. That's probably what Cait Sith will start out as. You'd have to keep him out for a while, making it pretty useless in BCNMs/Voidwatch.

[Razushu]

Well I honestly doubt they would give Cait Sith's favor, assuming regain, more than 4/tick. However that statement also assumes that Cait Sith itself is worth keeping out. Meaning it out DD's Garuda or out supports... other avatars...

At 1/tick regain, you're waiting 5 minutes for 100 TP. That's probably what Cait Sith will start out as. You'd have to keep him out for a while, making it pretty useless in BCNMs/Voidwatch.

Dallas doesn't "see" anything unless it directly(and positively) effects SMN melee, this now appears to include picking what will most likely be an inferior Physical DD to Garuda, and likely inferior Magical DD to anything with 5/5 in a merit pact.

inb4 with the moonshade earring he gets 1TP per tick back already so even standing around he would get 2TP per tick, meaning a Myrkr every 2.5 minutes, because even though every SMn has unlimited MP now it's important that he has more unlimited MP than everyone else's unlimited MP.

[Korpg]

inb4 with the moonshade earring he gets 1TP per tick back already so even standing around he would get 2TP per tick, meaning a Myrkr every 2.5 minutes, because even though every SMn has unlimited MP now it's important that he has more unlimited MP than everyone else's unlimited MP.

Even with Moonshade Earring, he still needs to whack on the mob to get TP in order to keep avatars out. 1 TP per tick or 2 TP per tick will not keep avatars out with the gear he uses, and all it will do is take his 13 hit down to a 12 hit. Which is not a big improvement to be honest.

[Razushu]

Even with Moonshade Earring, he still needs to whack on the mob to get TP in order to keep avatars out. 1 TP per tick or 2 TP per tick will not keep avatars out with the gear he uses, and all it will do is take his 13 hit down to a 12 hit. Which is not a big improvement to be honest.

lol I know that, but he doesn't. I was just preempting his counter point. I reckon he'll argue that you don't need to fight the mob, just be engaed but out of AoE range, and Hvergelmir will still be better than a -perp stave, or something equally out there.

[Dallas]

LOL, you don't need to whack at the mob...

Also, no one has ever seen people build TP before a fight? Stupid SMN. Build TP, remove favor, done.

Finally, I love the continued expectations that SMN will have unlimited mp, and they are defending a -perp staff like that's the secret. Very stupid SMN. Imagine if some idiot SAM defended Conserve TP for his 5-hit build. You should be shamed back into hiding.

[Rafien]

Alright, SMN have Odin, SCH has this sweet looking kill everything in a huge radius, where is DRK's ability to kill everything in a huge radius? After all isn't the point of a damage dealer to deal damage and not be out damaged by the people in the back?

[Razushu]

LOL, you don't need to whack at the mob...

Also, no one has ever seen people build TP before a fight? Stupid SMN. Build TP, remove favor, done.

Finally, I love the continued expectations that SMN will have unlimited mp, and they are defending a -perp staff like that's the secret. Very stupid SMN. Imagine if some idiot SAM defended Conserve TP for his 5-hit build. You should be shamed back into hiding.

Called it!:D

So stand around for 5 minutes before a fight, so you can regain MP you wouldn't have lost if you used a -perp set during the fight? Imagine if some idiot SMN defended melee as a fulltime means of keeping their Avatars ou....

[Dallas]

Hey short bus, what part of free avatars WITH Hver is too complicated to you?

[Razushu]

Hey short bus, what part of free avatars WITH Hver is too complicated to you?

LOL

I never said that you can't use Hvergelmir to replenish lost MP from -perp, just that everyone has free Avatars now. I'm merely pointing out the flaws in your argument of:

If I build TP before a fight I can't melee in I can use Mrykr to refill my MP during that fight.

When all you would need to garner the same effect is equip a -perp staff and junp right in, with the added benefit of not being locked into a single weapon.

[Dallas]

Perp gear does not replenish anything. You fail SMN 101.

[Ank]

SMN melee is the black hole of the official forums, isn't it.

[Elexia]

You know what, fine. If you don't think Odin needs fixing, whatever.

There is a reason this place is the joke it is. I'm done.

It's more:

"QQ! WTF YOU GIVE SCH SOMETHING SIMILAR TO ODIN? YOU GUYS BETTER FIX ODIN WTF SE?"

Instead of:

"Odin should be adjusted"

As a different topic, but instead the route to cry about SCH was taken.

[Razushu]

Perp gear does not replenish anything. You fail SMN 101.

I never said it replenishes anything. It does however negate the need to replenish MP that is lost because someone is trying to justify their empyrean weapon.

[Dallas]

Back to the question then, what do you think free means?

[Razushu]

Back to the question then, what do you think free means?

Don't you have access to a dictionary?

[Dallas]

I'm not the epic fail SMN who thinks that perp is better than mp recovery.

[Razushu]

I'm not the epic fail SMN who thinks that perp is better than mp recovery.

-perp is better than unnecessary MP recovery, cancelling perp cost saves 13MP a tick. After that MP recovery tools come in to play which is how everyone else gets free Avatars and unlimited MP.

[Dallas]

Raz, if you don't know how to get perp down without a magian staff, you can not be spared. Wrap it up, I don't intend on teaching you anything else.

[Razushu]

Raz, if you don't know how to get perp down without a magian staff, you can not be spared. Wrap it up, I don't intend on teaching you anything else.

You're terrible at twisting words you know that? Getting perp down is easy, the TotM staves aren't needed to cap -perp, but they are by far the most efficent single piece for it(Nirvana 90 aside). Getting the +2s isn't necessary to cap -perp, it's necessary to optimise refresh from gear though. I won't baffle you with the math, but the more -perp you can cram into the least amount of gear slots = the more refresh/other beneficial gear you can equip to full time.

[Korpg]

LOL, you don't need to whack at the mob...

Also, no one has ever seen people build TP before a fight? Stupid SMN. Build TP, remove favor, done.

Finally, I love the continued expectations that SMN will have unlimited mp, and they are defending a -perp staff like that's the secret. Very stupid SMN. Imagine if some idiot SAM defended Conserve TP for his 5-hit build. You should be shamed back into hiding.

Hi guys, I want to melee, but since we all know that if I melee I will die, so I want you guys to wait 5~10 minutes for me to get enough TP to keep my avatar out. Plus, I have to rest my MP afterwards so I can have full MP for the fight, so that will be an additional 3~4 minutes, and I have to do it before every fight. That is just so I can have unlimited MP one time. Yeah, I could have gotten full -perp stuff, but I got this staff for a reason! Please don't kick me out of the party though, like everyone else did.

[Razushu]

Hi guys, I want to melee, but since we all know that if I melee I will die, so I want you guys to wait 5~10 minutes for me to get enough TP to keep my avatar out. Plus, I have to rest my MP afterwards so I can have full MP for the fight, so that will be an additional 3~4 minutes, and I have to do it before every fight. That is just so I can have unlimited MP one time. Yeah, I could have gotten full -perp stuff, but I got this staff for a reason! Please don't kick me out of the party though, like everyone else did.

Didn't I tell ya?

[Korpg]

You did Raz, you told everyone what Dallas is going to say 15 minutes before he even said it, so he is not only dumb enough to become monotone, but also dumb enough to not read what you said and not say something different.