Subjob for melee SMN?

[Soranika]

A little back story first since I'm new to the forums. I've been a main SMN for 3 years now and I doubt it'll really change, even though I'm often forced to play on WHM for Abyssea related stuff. I went through most of that as WHM sub job so when level cap was still 75 so between waiting for/making exp parties, I often solo'd so my summoning magic has always been capped and staff skill very high.

I've entertained the thought of subbing SAM so I can finish the Sedikutchi +1* trials and doings things outside of a party setting. What about MNK or WAR though? Also what would be good equipment to have cause I had been using Carbuncle's Pole for a while until trial staves had released with no other equipment or accessories so you can imagine ow much of a drag that was.

*Working on the one augmented with 10% weapon skill damage until I get the emp staff.

[Karbuncle]

/SAM is your best bet. I know /WAR isn't horrible, 10%Dbl attack, but the Bonuses from Hasso will outweigh it, plus the Store TP, and Meditate, along with Sekka.

[Razushu]

/SAM is your best bet for pure damage, but if you're soloing(depending on target mob) you may want to stick with a /job that can heal you, and rely on gear /spells to boost your melee, it's all situational. I think Dallas said somewhere that /DNC is(or will be) better than /WAR or /SAM though, and I'm sure he'll be along here soon ask him about it, heck you might even be able to get a straight answer out of him:D

[Karbuncle]

/DNC won't be better for damage, but better for survivability i think.

[Economizer]

WAR, MNK, WHM, or PLD all provide access to more advanced weapon skills, while SAM provides better access to better TP generation, and allows you to make better chains since SE decided for some reason that the stronger physical bloodpacts shouldn't chain (ugh).

If you are specifically avoiding SAM, each of the other jobs I listed provide a mix of abilities. WAR provides double attack, MNK has counters, and PLD and WHM have more defensive capabilities. For other general survival, NIN can help, and if you get a multihitter staff, DNC can help some too.

For your staff, there are many options. Getting one of the multihitters like the one with double attack +10 (if you plan on subbing WAR), or the one with occ. attk. twice (for all else) can be very powerful for using TP moves more often. The WS damage one you are working on is also a solid choice. The Empyrean is also a solid choice. Of course, if you don't care how far you have to go to get it, the single best choice for Summoner melee still is and always will be Nirvana.

By the way, I have a question of my own for all the Summoners more experienced in melee here. Does anyone have a lot of information on the mythic WS for Summoner? And in addition to basic information (the wiki's information seems sketchy), some damage numbers would be nice to hear about too.

[Karbuncle]

Garland of Bliss? Its kinda shit. Really low damage potential, It is magical though. Lowers Enemies DEF as well. I think less than Shell Crusher though lol...

[Economizer]

/DNC won't be better for damage, but better for survivability i think.

This sortof depends on what you mean. Box Step can get up to a 13% reduction in defense on the mob, which is slightly better then Dia II (although Dia II instantly can get 10%). It can also reduce the foe's evasion, and provides Accuracy Bonus as well. These all can be very nice ways to do extra damage, although Dancer works better for jobs that rely on stuff like Dual Wield or multihit WS, like White Mage.

[Razushu]

/DNC won't be better for damage, but better for survivability i think.

Thats what I thought, but hey I'd never enterained the notion of it, but I saw it mentioned before so I figured I'd mention it and see if he can explain how it has merit for this use.

[Economizer]

Garland of Bliss? Its kinda shit. Really low damage potential, It is magical though. Lowers Enemies DEF as well. I think less than Shell Crusher though lol...

That's disappointing to hear. Shellcrusher that never misses is a gimpy thing to have for all the work that goes into a Mythic WS.

Since it is magical, I was hoping to hear at least some mid range damage numbers. Being able to go Atma of the Beyond (something that can actually be useful for SMN in Abyssea) for +30% damage would have been a nice thing to see. I'd still like to see specific damage numbers if anyone has screenshots or whatever.

[Korpg]

A little back story first since I'm new to the forums. I've been a main SMN for 3 years now and I doubt it'll really change, even though I'm often forced to play on WHM for Abyssea related stuff. I went through most of that as WHM sub job so when level cap was still 75 so between waiting for/making exp parties, I often solo'd so my summoning magic has always been capped and staff skill very high.

I've entertained the thought of subbing SAM so I can finish the Sedikutchi +1* trials and doings things outside of a party setting. What about MNK or WAR though? Also what would be good equipment to have cause I had been using Carbuncle's Pole for a while until trial staves had released with no other equipment or accessories so you can imagine ow much of a drag that was.

*Working on the one augmented with 10% weapon skill damage until I get the emp staff.

If you are in a party setting with people to heal you, then /SAM or /WAR would work, Karbuncle has stated which is better though.

But know this, in order to maximize your damage ability, you have to gear for yourself, not your avatar, so unless you are trying to spam the hell out of Spirit Taker, you won't be able to maintain your avatar while whacking on mobs. So you lose half of your damage ability right there.

Garland of Bliss is 100% accurate (although damage may be reduced, but you will always hit with it) while Shell Breaker has a stronger DEF- effect, but also has a horrible accuracy rate (in fact, all staff WSs and staff in that matter is comparably weak to other DDs). Even after you get your emp staff, don't expect to do outstanding damage at all.

Good luck with melee SMN.

[Korpg]

That's disappointing to hear. Shellcrusher that never misses is a gimpy thing to have for all the work that goes into a Mythic WS.

Since it is magical, I was hoping to hear at least some mid range damage numbers. Being able to go Atma of the Beyond (something that can actually be useful for SMN in Abyssea) for +30% damage would have been a nice thing to see. I'd still like to see specific damage numbers if anyone has screenshots or whatever.

Shell Crusher can miss, and often misses. It depends on the type of mob (DC and below won't miss as much as EM and above) but it is still limited by the staff skill and accuracy on gear.

[Economizer]

Thats what I thought, but hey I'd never enterained the notion of it, but I saw it mentioned before so I figured I'd mention it and see if he can explain how it has merit for this use.

The only way I'd see /DNC working well to enhance survivability for a Summoner is if you had a multihitter.
Outside of that and some stuff I noted earlier, I'm not sure it would be much use, especially since Sambas don't help pets anymore. Although I suppose you could lower magic resist on mobs in order to do more damage with your pet's magical attacks.

[Economizer]

Shell Crusher can miss, and often misses. It depends on the type of mob (DC and below won't miss as much as EM and above) but it is still limited by the staff skill and accuracy on gear.

Yes, it is an improvement, but for it being a Mythic WS, it is still a disappointment. It could at least do a bit more damage, considering the whole climb to floor 100. I always pictured the Mythic WS as being a bit of a game changer for your class, especially for classes like White Mage, Paladin, or Red Mage.

[Karbuncle]

Yah i thought it was a huge disappointment as well...

Wanna know the biggest slap to the face? Shell Crusher lowers Defense by 25%, Garland of Bliss only lowers Defense by 12.5%

Say that in your head a few times.

[Economizer]

Wanna know the biggest slap to the face? Shell Crusher lowers Defense by 25%, Garland of Bliss only lowers Defense by 12.5%

Can they at least stack?

[Karbuncle]

As far as i know, They cannot. Doesn't even Stack with Angon or the like.

[Economizer]

I wonder why nobody asked for it to be fixed. At the very least, for future content, it should be able to open a level 3 for your pet to close (pets should be able to close level 3 skillchains). Maybe make it something this WS in particular does?

I mean, comeon, its the freaking mythic WS!

[Korpg]

Yes, it is an improvement, but for it being a Mythic WS, it is still a disappointment. It could at least do a bit more damage, considering the whole climb to floor 100. I always pictured the Mythic WS as being a bit of a game changer for your class, especially for classes like White Mage, Paladin, or Red Mage.

I can pop out 800+ Garland of Bliss on mobs if I gear right for it.

Just stack in the MAB and INT/MND. MND is a modifier if I remember correctly, but INT increases damage better, so stack INT over MND. MAB is a direct mod (which explains why my macro has Novio/Hecate and Zenith Mitts on it for GoB) so that should go first.

Yeah, the damage isn't up to par of, say, Ukko's Fury, but it is still nice for the few times you actually want to melee on SMN.

[Soranika]

Thanks for all the timely responses. >.> Totally wasn't expecting so many so fast.

I'd LOVE to get my hands on nirvana but unless I luck out on the next Mog Bonnaza, I'll think about more realistic weapons. Survivability over damage output is a concern to me (which is why I never used -HP +MP gear) but I do tend to use Carbuncle and my NPC a lot with other avatars being situational or for specifically skill chaining or elemental weakness.

And side notes for Economizer and Korpg
-Yush, I totally hate not being able to skill chain with the more powerful blood pacts. SE's sense of humor =\ /stagger
-Melee SMN... in a party? People on my server aren't that generous towards SMN. Most seem to still think with a pre-75 cap mentality about the job. =\

[Karbuncle]

I can pop out 800+ Garland of Bliss on mobs if I gear right for it.

Just stack in the MAB and INT/MND. MND is a modifier if I remember correctly, but INT increases damage better, so stack INT over MND. MAB is a direct mod (which explains why my macro has Novio/Hecate and Zenith Mitts on it for GoB) so that should go first.

Yeah, the damage isn't up to par of, say, Ukko's Fury, but it is still nice for the few times you actually want to melee on SMN.

Is this in or out of abyssea? Cause even with Light staff back at 75 when i tried to gear for it correctly i couldnt even break 500 dmg.

With the right atmas (Beyond/Mini/Ult) I can maybe see it doing 800... but still, You'd probably get better numbers gearing for Retribution, and not taking the hit to your melee phase damage (use DD Atmas).

This is all assuming melee... of course. right?

[Economizer]

I can pop out 800+ Garland of Bliss on mobs if I gear right for it.

Thank you. Was this inside or outside Abyssea, and if it was inside, what Atma were you using?

I'm really hoping your answer is outside Abyssea, because that means Atma of the Beyond could put it into the thousand damage range.

That said, it sounds like Cataclysm would get better damage while still being AOE. I wonder if with /WHM and Diabolos's Phalanx you could solo farm some chests.

[Economizer]

Melee SMN... in a party? People on my server aren't that generous towards SMN. Most seem to still think with a pre-75 cap mentality about the job. =\

Since most of the exp these days is in burn style alliances, yeah, at least in exp parties. I've only gotten kicked out of one party for meleeing as a White Mage in Abyssea (although I rarely party, and most of the time if I do, it is to be lazy in some sort of trial and I don't melee) but I did so after watching another White Mage do so, and the guy who kicked me invited his friend and started badmouthing me in the party (I had other friends in the party). They started to die repeatedly despite doing fine when I was in the party (and replacing me and a BST they also booted with two healers). I proceeded to sit there for ten minutes laughing at them and my friend in the party walked out and left without warning (he was some DD job). The take away here is that only incredibly, horrifically bad players will tell you that you can't melee if you are doing your job already in an exp party.

[Soranika]

Since most of the exp these days is in burn style alliances, yeah, at least in exp parties. I've only gotten kicked out of one party for meleeing as a White Mage in Abyssea (although I rarely party, and most of the time if I do, it is to be lazy in some sort of trial and I don't melee) but I did so after watching another White Mage do so, and the guy who kicked me invited his friend and started badmouthing me in the party (I had other friends in the party). They started to die repeatedly despite doing fine when I was in the party (and replacing me and a BST they also booted with two healers). I proceeded to sit there for ten minutes laughing at them and my friend in the party walked out and left without warning (he was some DD job). The take away here is that only incredibly, horrifically bad players will tell you that you can't melee if you are doing your job already in an exp party.
Oh no no, I've never had an issue in exp/crour parties when it came to meleeing on SMN. It's outside Abyssea where I want to focus again that I have an issue at.
And LOL, that's a bit cruel, don't you think?

[Dallas]

Everyone knows the main subs.


/sam for pure damage and speed. Very dangerous with Hver.

/dnc for OA4 Yantok +2. Obviously a support sub. This setup has virtually unlimited TP for steps. It also can improve avatar damage through debuffs. Most important, I believe this setup has stun flourish. Perfect for meleeing spellcasters of a random element. I haven't played with this much because of the next sub.

/whm for Abyssea. Procs. Cure 4. Raise. Lame.

I keep my eye out for new uses for /war, /thf, and /mnk. I haven't seen any uses but damage, which /Sam still wins. Perhaps a good /war + perp build would work alongside Ifrit's favor for berserk support. I've also wondered about Ramuh's favor.

[Economizer]

And LOL, that's a bit cruel, don't you think?

They never asked me to stop, they never booted the other WHM who was meleeing, and we were fighting frogs. There was absolutely no reason to kick me aside from getting friends of the party leader into the party. Who couldn't do their job right.

Cruel would have been to farm a party on top of them using 2/3 of their alliance and a third party of meleeing White Mages.

[Dallas]

There was a few days in between completing yantok and full understanding of blue pyxides when some idiot wanted me to help 2x WHM heal an alliance that wasn't taking damage. I walked, and they ran out of time.

The herd is thinned on its own. Let it happen.

[Korpg]

It was outside Abyssea, on crabs in the tree.

I was killing for Retribution unlocking for the fun of it, didn't want to do it on WAR, so I went as SMN. EP crabs and having Shiva's Favor up for kicks to see how much my Garland's of Bliss would do, brought out all the MAB gear that SMN can equip also.

[Razushu]

There was a few days in between completing yantok and full understanding of blue pyxides when some idiot wanted me to help 2x WHM heal an alliance that wasn't taking damage. I walked, and they ran out of time.

The herd is thinned on its own. Let it happen.

Wth kind of alliance was completely reliant on a meleeSMN for... well anything?

[Soundwave]

Garland of Bliss with Jormy pole =D

[Soranika]

Wth kind of alliance was completely reliant on a meleeSMN for... well anything?

A smn with the right atma and in a weak, under leveled/gimped party like they usually tend to be.

[Economizer]

It was outside Abyssea, on crabs in the tree.

In that case, Garland of Bliss could possibly come close to or match Cataclysm (with atmas), albeit single target damage. Not exactly useful all the time, but good if /WHM wasn't what you want to use. Ideally, it would allow you to level 3 with some pets, but at least it can do some damage.

[Soranika]

On a side note, I'm curious about the argument against melee SMN that I've been running into quite frequently (and in Razushu's signature). When I first started playing as SMN, the one of the first things I read in a guide was get your hands dirty with Carby and melee too. So I took that to heart and is why I spent time meleeing through leveling when I could. Up until abyssea, I pretty much solo merited Ro'Maeve (or duo with a DNC friend whenever she was on) or when I had my NPC out. I'm well aware a melee SMN isn't quite useful in every situation, not many jobs are, but what's with all the hate? I couldn't help but notice SE's contradiction too in the job manifesto that SMN sit back and let the avatars do all the work, yet SMN, as well as BLM and SCH are the only job that get to use the best physical trial staves.

[Razushu]

On a side note, I'm curious about the argument against melee SMN that I've been running into quite frequently (and in Razushu's signature). When I first started playing as SMN, the one of the first things I read in a guide was get your hands dirty with Carby and melee too. So I took that to heart and is why I spent time meleeing through leveling when I could. Up until abyssea, I pretty much solo merited Ro'Maeve (or duo with a DNC friend whenever she was on) or when I had my NPC out. I'm well aware a melee SMN isn't quite useful in every situation, not many jobs are, but what's with all the hate? I couldn't help but notice SE's contradiction too in the job manifesto that SMN sit back and let the avatars do all the work, yet SMN, as well as BLM and SCH are the only job that get to use the best physical trial staves.

My sig is fun the lulz really:D. Every job melees at the begining, I took WHM to 31ish solo meleeing, got BLM to 18(with a dagger) the same way. Most people melee when it's worth it exp parties(if allowed), campaign etc. The argument stems from the fact certain people think a backline mage meleeing, can deal close to the damage of a WAR and should melee in every situation, and thats the only way to play.

That's not actually a contradiction, SE never said it wanted Summoner to be a melee/pet job, given our lack of melee traits & abilities cloth armor and traditionally mage-centric main weapon, it's safe to say either we're a backline mage by design, or SE screwed the pooch and we're the worst designed job in history:D. SE gave us the best staves, because those 3 jobs use staves as a main, and SE has given even the least physically endowed jobs some melee gear. Summoner wasn't designed to be a frontline any more than SCH or BLM was. These 3 get the better staves because the only other staff wielder gets club trials for DD weapons instead.

[Dallas]

True, SE never said they wanted SMN to melee. They have thrown out 3 melee staves in a row for ultimate mage weapons, but they didn't say anything about that. Spirit Taker sounds a lot like a MNK WS, now that you mention it. Resting was so effective for mp, melee just wasn't necessary. [/sarcasm]

People hate melee SMN because BG told them to hate it. That's all there is to it.

[Korpg]

..and here is Dallas chiming in.

melee SMN is only useful in situational fights (no deadly AoE moves/spells or a lot of hate reset moves that also deal a lot of damage). In other words, only on trash mobs.

Anything more challanging than an EM, and the SMN starts losing out on DD ability. Even with Dallas's so-called "perfect SMN melee gear" he still will have an 80% hit rate. And thats giving him food and the benefit of the doubt.

Then we have TP feed to include in this also. Is the 20-100 damage that the SMN hits the NM for really worth the TP feed that same SMN is giving the mob? Would it cause the mob to die faster or the alliance to die faster? That is always the question, which is why you see an alliance of people die to Sobek that a 4 man party can do easier and quicker.

[Malamasala]

Melee SMN is kind of and intelligence test. Nowhere does it say that you can do this, but if you stop and think about it, you'll realize that it is in fact like a match made in heaven. The fact that SMN is the only mage that can cast a spell once, and then live by that spell the rest of the fight, makes it stand out among other mages. Even BLU or DRK have a hard time to match the uninterrupted melee whacking of a SMN.

Then comes the usual problems. Lack of gear will make you hit slower than other jobs, even if they stop to cast occasionally. Lack of WSes with damage on will make you fall far behind in damage output. These two generally are summed up as "Feeding the mob TP". Since your really effective melee job, is really ineffective at damage.

There are some things to remember. Like if you have 4 melee, the monster has 100 TP when they are all at 25 TP... which is almost instantly. Sneak in and melee on SMN, and you have 5 melee, and the monster will have 100 TP the moment your melee has 20 TP. Which in time seen, is such a small difference that it will hardly ever cause more TP spam than it already was.

Other things to remember is that unless you are a taru, it isn't very likely that you'll die in melee range. I've really only died to things like NIN 2 hour move, and those things can hit you if you are incorrectly positioned in the backline as well. That said, I've obviously not meleed things like Orthus.

Most important of all is of course that it is the most fun way to play. Unless you dislike melee of course.