Rudra's Storm mods

[Xellith]

Are there any plans to change the weapon skill properties from;

Damage varies with TP
to
Critical Hit chance varies with TP?

Currently it just appears to be an underwhelming weapon skill compared to other DD options available. Making a change like this might make it more competitive.

Currently im either getting a Twashtar or an Ukon. I would like a Twashtar but it just seems like it comes down to whether or not I see myself as a career thief or if I want to obtain a decent weapon.

[DarkBass]

the true aspect of this ws is the aftermath, paired with triplus dagger and +2 5/5 thf af, its called 3k crit hits when you triple attack. plus the ws can be force crit when used with sa right?

[SpankWustler]

Given that Thief and Dancer both have ways to force critical hits, making the weapon skill unable to critical on it's own seems like an intentional move. For better or worse, Rudra's Storm is meant to work in tandem with Sneak Attack/Trick Attack/Climactic Flourish.

Also, just looking at the numbers, it appears single-hit dagger weapon skills are made weaker than most single-hit weapon skills for similar reasons. I think this bit is dumber than eating pudding with a sieve, but it also seems intentional.

[Atomic_Skull]

Are there any plans to change the weapon skill properties from;

Damage varies with TP
to
Critical Hit chance varies with TP?

Currently it just appears to be an underwhelming weapon skill compared to other DD options available. Making a change like this might make it more competitive.

Currently im either getting a Twashtar or an Ukon. I would like a Twashtar but it just seems like it comes down to whether or not I see myself as a career thief or if I want to obtain a decent weapon.

I guarantee you that if they changed it to a critical hit WS it's fTP would be lowered to compensate.

[Tagrineth]

They should just totally un-restrict all WS from landing critical hits so MNKs can go back to being the DPS kings and we can stop quibbling about which WS does what and blah blah blah yadda yadda homogenized gameplay everyone should be exactly the same etc etc.

[Vold]

Are there any plans to change the weapon skill properties from;

Damage varies with TP
to
Critical Hit chance varies with TP?

Currently it just appears to be an underwhelming weapon skill compared to other DD options available. Making a change like this might make it more competitive.

Currently im either getting a Twashtar or an Ukon. I would like a Twashtar but it just seems like it comes down to whether or not I see myself as a career thief or if I want to obtain a decent weapon.Twashtar is a pretty decent weapon when you stack on tp bonus for it. I use fusette +2 with it. It may not have the attractive stats of other daggers to off hand, but it's still got a respectable base dmg and delay and it will up RS damage considerably. Basically if your goal in any given situation is to use RS, you're going to want the Fusette for off hand, and as a career THF I imagine moonshine earring with tp bonus 25.

I solo RS with the fusette these days outside of Abyssea because more often than not it's in line with DE/evis on EP+ stuff, and with the aftermath on top of that it's a no brainer really... so really, unfortunately, a career thf must go after two daggers and not just one when Twashtar is involved to max it's potential. Without TP bonus the Twashtar and RS are just terrible for what they were meant to be. The dmg output just is not worth glavoid/Itz/Orthrus headaches like Ukon is, until you factor in the fTP boost RS gets. And that is why tp bonus is so damn great, so you aren't holding TP beyond 100 for more damage.

I was expecting more when I finished my twashtar to 85, but in retrospect I realize that I was seriously high hoping that THF would get a major hard hitting WS without any drawbacks. Still, with SA and TP bonus, RS delivers. You just have to remember that the job is light DD compared to a warrior or even a ninja. So having a mandau or a Twashtar doing what they do do is pretty damn nice. But yes, Ukon destroys twash for the most part thanks to the force crit business, and you will feel your time spent farming NMs was worth it for ukon and not worth it for Twashtar. BUT as a career THF you want a mandau or a twashtar, end of story. And you will feel gimp without them forever and ever if you have a strong faith in being a career THF. So you can go the Ukon route just because UF kicks ass without force crit drawbacks, or you can go the Twash route that will complete your career THF dreams. All I will say to that is, choosing Ukon will make you wish you chose Twash and choosing Twash will make you wish you chose Ukon. The only way to solve this problem is do both like I did. Then take a long ass vacation before you start Orthrus...

Lastly, "10k Ukko's Fury!" is a pretty damn rare sight, just for the record. It's more like "5k fury!" with the occasional higher than 5k strike. Abyssea wise, at least. In comparison, RS with tp bonus 200 working for you with smiting blow, you too can do well over 5k damage on average with SA RS. My high is nearly 9k. Dropping smiting blow will net you an average of around 7k or so I guess. It is what it is. Point is, force crit RS is serious business and it's as good as THF is going to get and it's miles better than second rate weapons. Get it or a mandau. If you have that #1 syndrome, Mandau wins out by a considerable margin imo by 99.

tl;dr - If you are rethinking Twash because of 10k Blade Hi/Ukko fury hype, don't make that mistake. It's fricking hype, trust me. A bad WAR will average like 2-3.5k UF while a good war will average at best 4-6k. I just don't even consider lol occasional 10k blasts anymore. Too rare to care about. Now that I see it in action I can't believe people pushed that so much in their boost relic arguments. They hear it can be done and it becomes the standard, not the exception. Just do yourself a favor and don't buy into that hype. Twash is worth getting if you can live with the god awful design that at first seems cool but eventually starts to get old and annoying to look at because it's design is impractical as a weapon of war and is better suited for a weapon of ceremonial purpose.

[Laphine]

Rudra's is very competive outside abyssea anyways, and stacked it averages higher those that can crit.

[Byrth]

I appreciate the "I wish this could Crit" sentiment, considering Blade: Hi has higher fTP and Kannagi has higher base damage to start with. Still, for what it is Rudra's does okay. Using it unstacked is almost always a questionable move though, unless you sacrifice your offhand for a TP Bonus Fusetto +2. I'm still trying to figure out if my Fusetto is worth it, haha.

[Greatguardian]

I can see Ukko's being hyped at 10k, but Hi? Lol. Victory Smite and Ukko's Fury are the two powerhouses in the Empyrean WS business, Blade: Hi is very much third place. It tends to act fairly similar to Chant du Cygne as far as damage goes. 3k averages are still respectable, but they're not the 4k-5k that Ukko/VS can average and Mnk/War are both in significantly more favorable positions as DDs to start with than Nin et al.

On topic with the OP, Rudra's is better as a non-crit WS because THF and DNC can force-crit, and non-crit WS almost always have significantly higher fTP values. If you're forcing a crit anyways, you're just getting the best of both worlds.

On the tangent of Empyrean WS being godmode, really there are only a few very strong examples that people bring up whenever they want to make a case for Relics/Mythics. The only two super strong Emp WS are Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite, mainly because Warrior and Monk are so powerful on their own. Blade: Hi, Chant du Cygne, Wildfire, Jishnu's Radiance, Torcleaver, and Tachi: Fudo are all powerful weaponskills in their own right, but (depending on the WS) either the jobs that wield them are unsuited to properly follow up and sustain heavy fire, or they're simply not that much stronger than the previously available options.

There are also Empyrean WS like Cloudsplitter, Myrkr, Dagan, Camlann's Torment, Quietus, and Rudra's Storm which either require a paired JA to be good, don't deal any damage at all, or just plain suck. I don't see any Mjollnir owners complaining about how their Relic is outclassed by an Empyrean.

sidenote: 5k Ukkos should be an average, as in for every wiff there's another 6k+ popping out, rather than a hard cap. I'd question what sort of food the War you're talking about is eating if they're rarely breaking 5k. Personally, 4k-5k Smites are typical for me when Impetus is down, followed by solid 7k-9k Smites every WS until Impetus wears or resets. The removal of the Crit Dmg+ cap was fairly phenomenal for jobs that can cap it.

[Karbuncle]

I blame lag btw.

[Karbuncle]

I wouldn't rule out Jishnu's Radiance from top 3, thats third for sure... Blade: Hi is likely 4th behind Jishnu.

Anyway, I think Rudra's Storm suffers from what I like to call "SATA Weakness". the WS itself is purposefully weaker because we have SATA, so most/all WS's we get have laughably low fTP mods, even though Dagger is the weakest weapon in the game, and in theory should have WSs with the highest fTP mods, this is again, because of SA and TA.

Rudra's though can be pretty good unstacked, but not at 100% TP, 300% though, it'd probably do semi-decent unstacked. However, i think we deserve to keep our Aftermath up without sacrificing DMG. (so do all DD, just as WAR and MNK get to now)

I mean, Ideally you can SA or TA it, but lets face reality, how often can you do things "Ideally"? Its very rare for me these days that i can easily land a SA, TA is no problem, but its also much weaker, for one Favoring AGI for TA DMG over DEX (Rudra's mod) leads to lesser damage (by a very noticeable extent) when compared to SA just stacking the DEX.

Sacrifices i don't think we should have to make. (nor any DD job with their WS's)

Basically, I believe you can make a WS powerful unstacked and still make it not over-powered Stacked. Look at Dancing Edge and Evisceration, Both decently powerful Weaponskills Stacked and Unstacked, Is it too hard/too much to ask Rudra's at least beat Evisc/DE @ 100%TP?

As far as Cloudsplitter, Camlanns, and Quietus go, I'm willing to suspect those are on the list of WS planned for updates, and i think those also should be looked into being more powerful, i agree.

ANYWAY, As far as my Solution to it? I think Rudra's should be reworked as follows:

"Description: Deals Heavy damage and weighs target down. Chance of Critical hit Varies with TP
Modifiers: 60% DEX
fTP: 5.0"
(While we're at it, do this for Mercy Stroke too, keep Mercy Stroke STR mod though)

Rudra's, at 300% TP, is 5.25fTP, I think making it a flat base of 5.0 and allowing it to crit will make it superior to Evisc/DE Unstacked, but at the same time, its not going to break the WS, and its not any stronger than a 300% TP Rudras is right now. It creates a powerful unstacked WS, while keeping it no more powerful than it is right now, thus not breaking it.

This is my opinion. THF is a very limited job, small boosts like this will at least help it make some headway into being acceptable, if only a little.

[Alhanelem]

When Abysea starts to play second fiddle to something else, critical weapon skills will stop being number one (or at least, some of them).

[Karbuncle]

When Abysea starts to play second fiddle to something else, critical weapon skills will stop being number one (or at least, some of them).

I don't believe this is true.

Even now, outside Abyssea, Evisceration poos on DE unless you can't gear for crap... Can't think of any other WS's of Crit not crit that come close to that comparison. With the access to Crit DMG+ and Crit-rate+ Gear we have no, its a clear victory. in averages and peaks.

Yes, Critical hits are better inside Abyssea, But outside they're just as strong in comparison to other things outside abyssea. Its the reason King's justice takes backseat to Raging Rush.

Critical hits do make things more powerful, and the differences between a WS that can crit, and cannot crit, are quite large. Especially when you consider close/similar fTP and mods, like how Evis and DE are, and RR/King's Justice.

a Change like the above to Rudra's would make it not only a powerful unstacked WS, but wouldn't over-break make it anymore powerful than it currently is stacked. (infact, at 300% TP it'll be .25fTP weaker).

I'm sure even you can see the truth in these words. Critical hits aren't as powerful outside abyssea as they are inside, But they are certainly still as powerful in comparison to non-crits, in or out. The difference is noticeable.

[Arcon]

I honestly cannot see the appeal of playing NIN. It's like a mix of MNK and THF, but excels in neither. Maybe I'm just not that kind of player. As DD they are sub-par, inside and outside of Abyssea. Even Kannagi 90 NINs don't come close to WAR and MNK without empyreans, possibly other DDs too (I honestly didn't see any other DDs in months, so it's a little hard to judge, I'm guessing DRG would also win easily).

From my experience weapon skills would rank like this:
1. Ukko's Fury
2. Victory Smite
3. Wildfire/Jishnu
4. Torcleaver, Blade: Hi, Chant du Cygne
5. Rudra's Storm, Tachi: Fudo
6. Quietus
7. (Didn't see many/any others yet)

Of course this could be just because of the players I've been seeing around (which, as I said before, wasn't a large number, since everyone is on MNK or WAR normally).

Rudra's Storm, however, has the advantage that was mentioned before. It can be stacked every 30s with either SA or TA, or every 60s with both. This doesn't eliminate the need for other WS on THF, but it doesn't make it quite as bad as similar WS due to that fact. Now, if Byrth's proposed TH system was in place, it would be very significant again, in its own right.

[Karbuncle]

I don't know, Maybe I'm a unique THF, I just don't understand why everyone's so comfortable Rudra's being a steaming pile of Mediocre unless its stacked... I don't mind it replacing Evisc, or DE, thats what i want it to do in fact.

I'm sure no WAR complains they don't get to use Raging Rush anymore... No MNK complains Victory Smite out-classes Asuran/Tornado... I would think.

I think a modest boost to Rudra's that would allow it to be more powerful than Evisc/DE unstacked isn't asking too much from SE, It would only server to help THF. Its not going to make THF better than WAR or MNK, But It'll help THF in a small way, which is what it needs.

Again, Like my proposed adjustment above, It would make Rudra's a fierce unstacked WS, but it would not make it any more powerful stacked than it is now. It would keep it useable a lot more often, allowing Thwast THFs to keep up Aftermath without sacrificing damage where applicable.

THF and DNC are both jobs that are already limited so much by the Devs for whatever reasons, do we really need even our Weaponskills to be limited in uses? I'm surprised Byrth and Arc are so comfortable with it too...

[Smush]

NO please keep rudra storm the same way its a good ws outside unstacked it does do good when you add in the after math and you can stacked its great on new voidwatch nms i have done 2.3-3.7k Stacked and with fusseto +2 off hand its even better i can get some screenshots if you want. And in abyssea its not weak at all its just not a crit ws so why would you even compare it to thos and when stacked it does crit in abyssea and i have had it do 5-7.6k inside you can check the link in my sig for thes SS. its 100% fine the way it is i would be very upset if they change it. abyssea is not the only part of the game nor will it be the main part in the future.

[Rearden]

Making Rudra's more powerful isn't going to make THF more useful for hate management than other jobs, or make it wanted for anything other than TH.

So basically, the only situation that Rudra's is currently good (Party/Ally play - hate control, TH stacking) is taken care of, and now Rudra's will become a great WS to use unstacked in solo play as well for a job than can already solo nearly everything.

[Karbuncle]

If you just are responding to the OP and not my idea, I kindly ask you to ignore this post. (Except for the very last part)


NO please keep rudra storm the same way its a good ws outside unstacked

Right off the bat, No its not. Evisceration is precisely 5.0fTP if all 5 hits land (i think 6.0 Technically if you're dual wielding? someone correct me if I'm wrong), and can crit. its Mods are only DEX:30 (30% less than Rudra's) but crit and higher fTP by far (at 100%) makes up for it.

Dancing Edge, is 5.1875 (6.1875 if Dual wielding, again correct me if im misunderstanding that), With Better mod oppurtunity (DEF:30 CHR:40 over DEX:60)

Rudra's, at 100%TP, is 3.25(4.25 dual wield?), so right off the bat its already behind in that regard. Unless you sub an Inferior offhand weapon (Fussetto +2) then it becomes 4.25(5.25?), which even still is behind Evis and DE.

Its bad compared to the above too, and will always average lower unstacked unless you save to 300%TP, even then Evisc still has the capacity to outperform it thanks to it being able to Crit.


it does do good when you add in the after math and you can stacked its great on new voidwatch nms i have done 2.3-3.7k Stacked

No one denies its good stacked, for the record, changing it to a Crit WS will do absolutely nothing to its Stacked Damage (unless they adjust fTP mods as a result)


And in abyssea its not weak at all its just not a crit ws

Yes it is, and not being able to crit without forcing through SA/TA is precisely why its a weak WS (unstacked). its the same reason DRK and SAM lost their shine in Abyssea. But frankly This isn't about abyssea. Again, Its very strong stacked.


so why would you even compare it to thos and when stacked it does crit in abyssea and i have had it do 5-7.6k inside you can check the link in my sig for thes SS.

I do not debate its powerful stacked.


its 100% fine the way it is

No its not unless you enjoy mediocrity restricted by JA timers?


i would be very upset if they change it.

Why would you be upset if they changed it so its more powerful unstacked, and its stacked power is unchanged?


abyssea is not the only part of the game nor will it be the main part in the future.

Abyssea has nothing to do with it. You have 2WS one is 5.0fTP, can't crit, one has 5.0fTP, can crit, Which one will do more damage? Abyssea didn't make Crits good, It made them better.

Again, i mention, THF and DNC are both very limited jobs thanks to the Devs vision of them, DNC with its Waltz timers and general lack of needs, and THF and its lack of everything. Do our WS truly have to be on a "Useful only SA/TA'd" Limitation as well?


Making Rudra's more powerful isn't going to make THF more useful for hate management than other jobs, or make it wanted for anything other than TH.

Well, ignoring that I've never heard a single person say "We can't do this fight without a THF for Enmity control and hate management", On the topic of Treasure hunter... According to recent tests (dont right here), Treasure Hunter beyond the "Treasure Hunter II" job trait does so very little that you're likely better off having a BRD or something sub THF and replace the THF with a real DD.

THF being my favorite job, that makes me incredibly sad lol

[Greatguardian]

@Krabnuckle, personally I'm hesitant to really praise Jishnu's because of how poorly Ranger is able to handle actually firing off the WS on a consistent basis. Victory Smite, for example, is extremely powerful in the hands of a Monk, but Puppetmaster lacks the tools to use it to the sort of effectiveness that Monk can.

The appeal of Blade: Hi over something like Chant du Cygne is really the fact that Ninja is so much more generally useful than Blue mage or Paladin in Abyssea, rather than the strength of the WS itself. Having a 6.0 fTP 4-hit crit WS with a 150% Str mod won't mean much if Scholar is the only job that can use it, etc.

[Karbuncle]

@Krabnuckle, personally I'm hesitant to really praise Jishnu's because of how poorly Ranger is able to handle actually firing off the WS on a consistent basis. Victory Smite, for example, is extremely powerful in the hands of a Monk, but Puppetmaster lacks the tools to use it to the sort of effectiveness that Monk can.

The appeal of Blade: Hi over something like Chant du Cygne is really the fact that Ninja is so much more generally useful than Blue mage or Paladin in Abyssea, rather than the strength of the WS itself. Having a 6.0 fTP 4-hit crit WS with a 150% Str mod won't mean much if Scholar is the only job that can use it, etc.

Ah, I simply thought you were going off "Biggest Numbers" :X. Also, No comment on Improving Rudra's to be good Stacked and Unstacked D:?

[Raksha]

Even now, outside Abyssea, Evisceration poos on DE unless you can't gear for crap... Can't think of any other WS's of Crit not crit that come close to that comparison. With the access to Crit DMG+ and Crit-rate+ Gear we have no, its a clear victory. in averages and peaks.


Is this w/ SATA? Because on DNC my DE seems to do better damage than evis.

[Karbuncle]

Is this w/ SATA? Because on DNC my DE seems to do better damage than evis.

I believe THF has better gear options for Evisc. (Could be wrong)

However, I believe thats because DNCs have much higher CHR, Which will Favor DE, as with THF, their lowest stat is CHR.

Sorry if I was unclear but i meant in regards to THF :X I mention DNC cause i think its only fair too (since they're screwed right along with us)

[Rearden]

Unless something has changed, DE should still be the rule of thumb WS outside of Abyssea yeah?

Anyway, my comment wasn't that THF is needed for anything in party play, moreso that other jobs control hate better when it comes down to that, and that the only real benefit is TH. With that in mind, Rudra's shines in party play, or at least has the ability to. Making it so Rudra's is great for solo play really is just going to lead to yet another job taking forever to kill shit because that person has no friends.

[Karbuncle]

Unless something has changed, DE should still be the rule of thumb WS outside of Abyssea yeah?

It has changed. For THF Anyway, With the advent of a multitude of Critical hit rate/Dmg Gear and the Job Traits (Critical Attack Bonus) to supplement Evisceration, it is better outside than it was at 75.

Heck, Even at 75, If you had X's Knife it was actually very close in favor of Evisceration!


Anyway, my comment wasn't that THF is needed for anything in party play, moreso that other jobs control hate better when it comes down to that, and that the only real benefit is TH. With that in mind, Rudra's shines in party play, or at least has the ability to. Making it so Rudra's is great for solo play really is just going to lead to yet another job taking forever to kill shit because that person has no friends.

I fail to see how making Rudra's a decent unstacked WS is at all related to jobs Soloing more? The only thing it will do is improve the WS to not suck when unstacked. Having Rudra's not suck unstacked isn't going to amass a bunch of THFs soloing things.

Rudra's won't stop Blizzaja from killing a THF, and if its something that doesn't wipe them? They're already doing it with Evisceration... Having Rudra's not suck unstacked will simply help a THF keep Aftermath up without having to sacrifice WS damage.

THF is a limited job, Its WS don't need to be limited too. Your yourself admit THFs only use is TH, which frankly they're not even amazing for that when anyone /THF can do it just about as good, theres no reason our best Weaponskills should be stuck with limitations as well.

[Arcon]

Unless something has changed, DE should still be the rule of thumb WS outside of Abyssea yeah?

I thought so. I didn't do any actual testing, and don't have much critical hit gear, maybe you could make Evisceration better with what's out there (with higher Critical Attack Bonus trait too), but I noticed Dancing Edge to be generally better outside.

King's Justice/Raging Rush isn't an entirely fair comparison though, since KJ's stats are closer to RR's than DE's are to RS's. Also, King's Justice has only 1.0 fTP as well at 100%, which is when you usually WS. So it's not that surprising to see RR win out in most cases, critical WS or not.

[Karbuncle]

Re: RR/KJ

It was really the only other WS combo i could think of that came close to the comparison of DE/Evisc.

Secondly, Evisc is better outside if geared right. Like for instance... Hecatomb Hands+1 with CritDMG augment, Hecatomb Sub+1 with Crit Rate augments... and so forth. Loki's Kaftan and Critical Attack bonus go a long way as well.

It requires better gear, so in a way DE is better if you're over-all not perfect in gear, but Evisc wins when you get your gear right.

Edit: For THF.

[Smush]

If you just are responding to the OP and not my idea, I kindly ask you to ignore this post. (Except for the very last part)



Right off the bat, No its not. Evisceration is precisely 5.0fTP if all 5 hits land (i think 6.0 Technically if you're dual wielding? someone correct me if I'm wrong), and can crit. its Mods are only DEX:30 (30% less than Rudra's) but crit and higher fTP by far (at 100%) makes up for it.

Dancing Edge, is 5.1875 (6.1875 if Dual wielding, again correct me if im misunderstanding that), With Better mod oppurtunity (DEF:30 CHR:40 over DEX:60)

Rudra's, at 100%TP, is 3.25(4.25 dual wield?), so right off the bat its already behind in that regard. Unless you sub an Inferior offhand weapon (Fussetto +2) then it becomes 4.25(5.25?), which even still is behind Evis and DE.

Its bad compared to the above too, and will always average lower unstacked unless you save to 300%TP, even then Evisc still has the capacity to outperform it thanks to it being able to Crit.



No one denies its good stacked, for the record, changing it to a Crit WS will do absolutely nothing to its Stacked Damage (unless they adjust fTP mods as a result)



Yes it is, and not being able to crit without forcing through SA/TA is precisely why its a weak WS (unstacked). its the same reason DRK and SAM lost their shine in Abyssea. But frankly This isn't about abyssea. Again, Its very strong stacked.



I do not debate its powerful stacked.



No its not unless you enjoy mediocrity restricted by JA timers?



Why would you be upset if they changed it so its more powerful unstacked, and its stacked power is unchanged?



Abyssea has nothing to do with it. You have 2WS one is 5.0fTP, can't crit, one has 5.0fTP, can crit, Which one will do more damage? Abyssea didn't make Crits good, It made them better.

Again, i mention, THF and DNC are both very limited jobs thanks to the Devs vision of them, DNC with its Waltz timers and general lack of needs, and THF and its lack of everything. Do our WS truly have to be on a "Useful only SA/TA'd" Limitation as well?

I was only replying to OP. im well aware of it not have the being able to go as high as DE and evis unstack thos are mulit hit ws one can crit and they hit 5 times 6 when you count offhand. But with twash you get a aftermath that does more then enough to out do thos ws on avg because duo to the high lvl of the nms outside you wont land all hits nor crit in all of them if you fought the T2-T3 void watch nms you will see most of them very evasive and probaly have agi around 130ish so crit hit rate wont be over 50% and you wont be landing all hits on avg with outside of acc food. the def on the mobs is to the point where /war is almost a need to do relevent dmg and att food so relying on a one hit ws that will do good just not as high as a max DE or evis + aftermath will do better and you have to count the offhand hit of rudra storm in the ftp as well.

The reason why i dont wont them to change from dmg varies with tp is because all the other emp ws that say does triple dmg have a ftp of 3.00 because there dmg does not go up with tp i think they would do the same to rudra storm so it would lower the ftp with +tp bonus i go at 4.25 outside abyssea the only daggers close to it are STR or DEX kila but with twast it pulls ahead on mosts things not all sometimes i do have to you one or the other but main thing is getting your after math but if they where to make it 4.00 ftp chance of crit i would be ok with that. and in abyssea i really dont care much evis is crazy in there so im mainly worried about outside.

[Karbuncle]

Okay

Ah, You should re-read my First post on the second page, Look near the bottom where i recommend the Adjustment to Rudra's Storm, tell me what you think.

[Korpg]

Never really looked into it, and nobody in my shell is getting a twashtar (kindof burnt out on Glavoid and Wamora atm, too many noobs getting GA and stuff) so I never really look at this, but is Rudra's Storm elemental or physical WS, and are there any added effects to it (like Ukko's nice slow effect)?

[Karbuncle]

Yah, Its physical and has a Gravity Effect.

[Smush]

Ah, You should re-read my First post on the second page, Look near the bottom where i recommend the Adjustment to Rudra's Storm, tell me what you think.

LOL hell yea i would roll with that one can only hope tho when it comes to thf tho

[Smush]

Never really looked into it, and nobody in my shell is getting a twashtar (kindof burnt out on Glavoid and Wamora atm, too many noobs getting GA and stuff) so I never really look at this, but is Rudra's Storm elemental or physical WS, and are there any added effects to it (like Ukko's nice slow effect)?

the Gravity last 60 secs and has a nice potency i was able to duo suzaku by wsing when he chainspelled and flee away he was not able to get to me before his chainspell wore off.

[Karbuncle]

They have a lot of planned WS adjustments according to a response they made a while back in a thread about "Break" style weaponskills (Great Axe)

Perhaps They'll rethink Rudra in that way...


the Gravity last 60 secs and has a nice potency i was able to duo suzaku by wsing when he chainspelled and flee away he was not able to get to me before his chainspell wore off.

Lol thats actually pretty amusing.

[Smush]

If they redo it the way you said it would be fair to us also dnc would do better with it tho i seen some dncs do really good with it already when forced crit but a great imporvment none the less.

[Laphine]

hmm i think you exaggerate a bit there karb lol.

5ftp and critting is way too much. Expecially when (for some reason) daggers are supposed to do the least damage in the game. But 5ftp at 100% (maybe 7ftp @ 300) wouldn't be too shaby. Although RS can't completely beat DE/Evis currently, it sure isn't so far behind(a ~50 damage difference on too weak). But being the best ws regardless of situation would certainly be nice.

On THF, SE already say that they want us to be a party job. Needing SA/TA for RS i think is reasonable enough. And with SA/TA only, i use RS 70% of the time inside abyssea, and 100% of the time outside. If we do get a 3rd force crit JA (i hope we are getting) it's going to be even more awesome.

Still, increasing RS damage specially when stacked with TA, goes hand in hand with increasing out hate management potential.

[Karbuncle]

hmm i think you exaggerate a bit there karb lol.

5ftp and critting is way too much. Expecially when (for some reason) daggers are supposed to do the least damage in the game. But 5ftp at 100% (maybe 7ftp @ 300) wouldn't be too shaby. Although RS can't completely beat DE/Evis currently, it sure isn't so far behind(a ~50 damage difference on too weak). But being the best ws regardless of situation would certainly be nice.

On THF, SE already say that they want us to be a party job. Needing SA/TA for RS i think is reasonable enough. And with SA/TA only, i use RS 70% of the time inside abyssea, and 100% of the time outside. If we do get a 3rd force crit JA (i hope we are getting) it's going to be even more awesome.

Still, increasing RS damage specially when stacked with TA, goes hand in hand with increasing out hate management potential.

I agree with a lot, But even if we are a party job (its FFXI, every job is a party job...) I just don't think making THF so extremely limited in its capabilities is justified. (I know you're speaking from what the devs said and not personal opinion here)

I'd say WAR is a party job, but theres no dumb restrictions on its power :|.

On the topic of Rudra's and over, I don't think its too far fetched. Think of it this way... Right now at 300%TP Rudra's is 5.25 mod, So if it was updated to be 5.0 with Crit chance, It wouldn't be any more powerful than it was at 300% before the update, It would just be more useful Unstacked.

Even if it was changed to that, it still wouldn't come close to a VS, Ukkos, Etc outside or Inside Abyssea, It would simply make it above-par with Evisc at 100% TP (when you should be WS'ing)

The goal would be to simply not steal its power, but also to make it great unstacked. THF can remain a party job and still not have the limitation placed on it. I would like to think in FFXI, a party oriented game, the Devs can at least see the logic in unbinding/restricting THF.

the job itself is already on the final nail in the coffin so to speak, loosening one nail wouldn't hurt :X

[Smush]

hmm i think you exaggerate a bit there karb lol.

5ftp and critting is way too much. Expecially when (for some reason) daggers are supposed to do the least damage in the game. But 5ftp at 100% (maybe 7ftp @ 300) wouldn't be too shaby. Although RS can't completely beat DE/Evis currently, it sure isn't so far behind(a ~50 damage difference on too weak). But being the best ws regardless of situation would certainly be nice.

On THF, SE already say that they want us to be a party job. Needing SA/TA for RS i think is reasonable enough. And with SA/TA only, i use RS 70% of the time inside abyssea, and 100% of the time outside. If we do get a 3rd force crit JA (i hope we are getting) it's going to be even more awesome.

Still, increasing RS damage specially when stacked with TA, goes hand in hand with increasing out hate management potential.

ws with chance of crit hit varies with TP ftps dont go up with tp the crit rate does so it would stay at 5. blade hi stays at 4 all the way across the borad so i dont think it would be broken

[Laphine]

well when i say party job i do mean restrictions in power lol. I enjoy very much SA/TA and the positional playstyle. On this day and age, of course, this playstyle simply doesn't work. Still, i would prefer that SA/TA received a well deserved boost than losing the positional aspect that made me love the job.


ws with chance of crit hit varies with TP ftps dont go up with tp the crit rate does so it would stay at 5. blade hi stays at 4 all the way across the borad so i dont think it would be broken
That's not what i was implying/wanted to imply. I meant make it 5-7 ftp without crit. 5-7 is probably too high too. Make that 4-6~ lol

[Karbuncle]

well when i say party job i do mean restrictions in power lol. I enjoy very much SA/TA and the positional playstyle. On this day and age, of course, this playstyle simply doesn't work. Still, i would prefer that SA/TA received a well deserved boost than losing the positional aspect that made me love the job.


That's not what i was implying/wanted to imply. I meant make it 5-7 ftp without crit. 5-7 is probably too high too. Make that 4-6~ lol

If we're going to keep it a non-crit WS i'd rather just leave it as is, maybe increasing the fTP mods a little at 100%.

You have to look at it compared to DE/evi, You think 5.0 is too powerful, but in reality Evisc/DE are themselves 5.0fTP and 5.1875fTP when you consider they're each 5 hit weaponskills. (With multi hit, first hit gets fTP mod, each hit after is 1.0fTP)

So 4.0/5.0 would actually be lower than DE/Ev, 6.0 would be slightly better.

[Byrth]

I can see Ukko's being hyped at 10k, but Hi? Lol. Victory Smite and Ukko's Fury are the two powerhouses in the Empyrean WS business, Blade: Hi is very much third place. It tends to act fairly similar to Chant du Cygne as far as damage goes. 3k averages are still respectable, but they're not the 4k-5k that Ukko/VS can average and Mnk/War are both in significantly more favorable positions as DDs to start with than Nin et al.

This is entirely my point though.

Blade Hi is 4.0 fTP, 60% AGI, and uses a D55 weapon. On top of that, it receives a 10-20% Critical Hit rate bonus (modded by TP) and can crit.

Rudra's Storm is 3.25 fTP, 60% DEX, and uses a D48 weapon. On top of that, it cannot crit unless forced.

While Blade: Hi is useful without a crit forcing JA, Rudra's is not. DNC and THF (ignoring lolBRD for the moment) received a weaponskill that is worthless without pairing it with a crit-forcing JA. If Rudra's had been 3.25 fTP and chance to crit, it would have been comparable to Blade: Hi outside Abyssea and worse than it inside. We could cap dDEX outside Abyssea, but we're also missing .75 fTP and using a dagger instead of a Katana.

I would personally like to see its fTP changed from 3.25~5.25 to 4.25~5.25. This way I could abandon my offhand TP Bonus Fusetto +2 in favor of the STR/Atk Kila +2 (much better for DPS) without any regrets. As it is, I would probably do the best damage outside Abyssea if I used an STR Kila +2 offhand and spammed Dancing Edge, tossing out a Climactic Rudra's only when No Foot Rise is up (once every 3 minutes) for a paltry 30 seconds of aftermath.

[Karbuncle]

Yay Byrth agrees with me in a way :X

[Laphine]

But ftp is not everything. RS still has double the amount of WSC of Evis and (for me) 35% more than DE.

[Byrth]

Unless I'm using my TP Bonus dagger (I always use the TP Bonus earring), Rudra's doesn't perform comparably to Evisceration, Pyrrhic Kleos, or Dancing Edge for me. If I'm using the TP Bonus dagger, Rudra's does about as well as Evisc or PK, but Dancing Edge is still out in front of the pack. Factor in aftermath and I feel justified using Rudra's over Dancing Edge, but just barely. Factor in that I could be offhanding a STR Kila +2 and getting 2 base damage and 25 attack on both hands . . . and I stop using Rudra's and start using Dancing Edge.

I don't want to waste my offhand just so my weaponskill can be a mediocre alternative to three other weaponskills.

[Karbuncle]

But ftp is not everything. RS still has double the amount of WSC of Evis and (for me) 35% more than DE.

I don't think That makes up for ~1.9fTP loss and 1.75fTP loss+Critical Hit chance over DE/Evisc (at 100% TP).

I might be wrong :(

I honestly feel like Im in the Twilight zone here, Why argue to keep a WS bad =.=a I'm so confused, are you people WAR's in disguise or something? Why is improving a WS to be more powerful Solo, as well as consistent Stacked met with such resistance.

Am i taking crazy pills ?!

[Greatguardian]

This is entirely my point though.

Blade Hi is 4.0 fTP, 60% AGI, and uses a D55 weapon. On top of that, it receives a 10-20% Critical Hit rate bonus (modded by TP) and can crit.

Rudra's Storm is 3.25 fTP, 60% DEX, and uses a D48 weapon. On top of that, it cannot crit unless forced.

While Blade: Hi is useful without a crit forcing JA, Rudra's is not. DNC and THF (ignoring lolBRD for the moment) received a weaponskill that is worthless without pairing it with a crit-forcing JA. If Rudra's had been 3.25 fTP and chance to crit, it would have been comparable to Blade: Hi outside Abyssea and worse than it inside. We could cap dDEX outside Abyssea, but we're also missing .75 fTP and using a dagger instead of a Katana.

I would personally like to see its fTP changed from 3.25~5.25 to 4.25~5.25. This way I could abandon my offhand TP Bonus Fusetto +2 in favor of the STR/Atk Kila +2 (much better for DPS) without any regrets. As it is, I would probably do the best damage outside Abyssea if I used an STR Kila +2 offhand and spammed Dancing Edge, tossing out a Climactic Rudra's only when No Foot Rise is up (once every 3 minutes) for a paltry 30 seconds of aftermath.

Oh, I can definitely see where you're coming from. I suppose I really should just start quoting posts more often, really. I posted after you but I was primarily responding to Vold's rant about Ukko's and Blade: Hi. I'm just generally too lazy to snip really big quote posts, heh.

[Alhanelem]

Victory Smite, for example, is extremely powerful in the hands of a Monk, but Puppetmaster lacks the tools to use it to the sort of effectiveness that Monk can.Nonsense. VS is still very effective used by a PUP and is far better than the previous best WS. No, it's not AS good as MNK using it, but it's not as if they're two different WS depending on who's using it something. Having the automaton, you can't have as good stats for WSing. In the end, MNK obviously wins and there's a gap that needs closing, but don't make it sound like the WS is substatntially inferior when used by a PUP, because it isn't and I know from experience.

Perhaps I'm overreacting to your statement. But the point is it's a strong WS on either job.

[Greatguardian]

Yes, you are overreacting. Monk can hit +100% Crit Damage, Pup ... can't. Instead of getting instantly defensive about your job's pride, realize that I was simply demonstrating that the raw power of a WS is only as important as the power of the job that wields it. Victory Smite is powerful regardless, but it's only "Brokenly omgz leet" in the hands of a Monk, much like Ukko's is "Brokenly omgz leet" in the hands of a Warrior. Similarly, Jishnu's can be as super powerful as it wants, it will still lack the "Brokenly omgz leet" title as long as Ranger's innate placement issues are still in play.

[Alhanelem]

That's a fair explanation. THat said, you do need to remember that technically, PUP's other tools are (supposed) to make up for not having all of that max crit equipment and such. Not to say they completely do, but that's the concept of course.

Some weaponskills though, are underwhelming regardless of who uses them. I believe Rudra's Storm was being used as the example here?

[Laphine]

I don't think That makes up for ~1.9fTP loss and 1.75fTP loss+Critical Hit chance over DE/Evisc (at 100% TP).

I might be wrong :(

I honestly feel like Im in the Twilight zone here, Why argue to keep a WS bad =.=a I'm so confused, are you people WAR's in disguise or something? Why is improving a WS to be more powerful Solo, as well as consistent Stacked met with such resistance.

Am i taking crazy pills ?!

I'm not entirely happy about RS lol, but i don't think we need a big change to make it the best for us. 4.25 as Byrth put it would be awesome. If we did get it to crit it would just shift things and ppl would now say "ohh thf and dnc do too much damage. Nerf them!".

[Karbuncle]

I'm not entirely happy about RS lol, but i don't think we need a big change to make it the best for us. 4.25 as Byrth put it would be awesome. If we did get it to crit it would just shift things and ppl would now say "ohh thf and dnc do too much damage. Nerf it!".

Nah, THF would never get that powerful, Even considering a 6.0fTP mod with chance of crit wouldn't scratch what an Ukon or VS could do. Even if it could, It would only be with SA or TA, where as MNK and WAR can freely rape face, and do better DPS inbetween WS, and WS more frequently because it would't be tied to a 60s(x2) JA timer.

(outside Abyssea of course)

4.25 would still be weaker than DE/Evisc would it not? I mean, The Aftermath would make up for it, But i don't think even thats justified when again, we look at Ukko and VS, both supreme WS who get the pleasure of Kick-ass damage without sacrificing anything, and keep Aftermath up.

Still think 5.0 would be a nice baseline, but maybe 4.5?

[Laphine]

With 4.25ftp RS would be a little bit better, which is great to make the aftermath a positive bonus. So yeah if it could crit, i'll be throwing the numbers i currently can with fusetto and SA. I really think this would push the edge a lot, specially for dnc and their skillchain spam.

But you know what, i'll just shush lol. Of course i'll be happy if RS is suddenly able to crit lol.

[Karbuncle]

With 4.25ftp RS would be a little bit better, which is great to make the aftermath a positive bonus. So yeah if it could crit, i'll be throwing the numbers i currently can with fusetto and SA. I really think this would push the edge a lot, specially for dnc and their skillchain spam.

But you know what, i'll just shush lol. Of course i'll be happy if RS is suddenly able to crit lol.

Well, Remember if it can crit it wouldn't do number comparable to SA or TA, because of SA and TA's 100% mods :P (DEX and AGI respectively).

It'd just be significantly more useful unstacked too ;P!

[Laphine]

I am, but SA (throwing numbers now) dex bonus might increase the overall ws damage by 25% or so. TA agi bonus under that for sure. I kinda think the offhand/and all the other extra attacks critting would out do them (if not, TA one at least) with the huge amounts of crit attack bonus we have.

[DarkBass]

I for one dont see anything wrong with Rudra's storm. Its a powerful ws already. Thf's with Twashtar actually make me jealous inside abyssea. Nothin like seeing a thf Crank out a 3k+ Rudra's then continue meleeing with aftermath effect and getting 3k+ crit melee hits. Its a good damaging ws and thf has been laid out to accentuate its nature of landing good crit hits often.

[Byrth]

3k Rudra's in Abyssea should make you sad, not jealous. Look at this thread (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/23414/rudras-storm-dmg-pics/7/#1422867), haha.

If they bumped up Rudra's base fTP by 1 and let it crit hit, I'd only need 1 WS macro.

[Karbuncle]

3k Rudra's in Abyssea should make you sad, not jealous. Look at this thread (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/23414/rudras-storm-dmg-pics/7/#1422867), haha.

If they bumped up Rudra's base fTP by 1 and let it crit hit, I'd only need 1 WS macro.

That sounds like a simple adjustment... Raise fTP by 1, and let it crit. = New best friend.

[Byrth]

That sounds like a simple adjustment... Raise fTP by 1, and let it crit. = New best friend.

Sounds simple, but have you ever heard of the Relic Weapon Skills? Even with Damage +25% from the level 90 Relics and including their Aftermaths, half of them are still useless. That content was released more than half a decade ago and still hasn't been adjusted to the point that it's usable.

I'm just thankful that I got Climactic Flourish so Rudra's has a place in my arsenal at all.

[Economizer]

I mean, Ideally you can SA or TA it, but lets face reality, how often can you do things "Ideally"? Its very rare for me these days that i can easily land a SA, TA is no problem, but its also much weaker, for one Favoring AGI for TA DMG over DEX (Rudra's mod) leads to lesser damage (by a very noticeable extent) when compared to SA just stacking the DEX.

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you with my suggestion.

Since it can be hard to stack a SATA on a WS, there should be a job ability Thief gets at like 90 that uses both and makes it so they don't get used until you WS. This way, it would be easier to get a SATA off on a weapon skill. Thieves that want to separate the two will still have to work for it, keeping some player skill in the equation.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, At least they're acknowledging a lot of WS's need adjusting... (or at least, said a lot of WS would adjusted)

Part of me feels like they won't do anything to help THF, so this probably won't get updated, but the other part of me has faith they at least want to make the job remotely playable.

Once we finish demystifying Treasure Hunter, their go-to excuse to make THF Mediocre won't quite hold water... Especially if tests stay the course they are now...

[Karbuncle]

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you with my suggestion.

Since it can be hard to stack a SATA on a WS, there should be a job ability Thief gets at like 90 that uses both and makes it so they don't get used until you WS. This way, it would be easier to get a SATA off on a weapon skill. Thieves that want to separate the two will still have to work for it, keeping some player skill in the equation.

I had always figured some JT that allowed you to SA from any direction with a penalty to damage would be nice.

I think of it less like "Oh i can be lazy now from anywhere" and more like "No more "FU*KING PI** GODDAM**** MOTHER F**KER WHY'D YOU MOVE THE MOVE WHEN I WAS SATA'ING" type of thing.

Like say, Using SA from the sides would impose a 25% penalty to SA mods (i.e instead of 100% DEX mod, you'd only get 75%), and when used from the front, You'd only get 50%.

It would be more of a "The mob turned, but at least i did some damage" not a "LAZY TIME LOL"

[Byrth]

Easy fix for SA and TA would be to turn them into a forced crit from any direction, but not give the DEX or AGI bonus if their current activation conditions weren't met.

[Karbuncle]

Easy fix for SA and TA would be to turn them into a forced crit from any direction, but not give the DEX or AGI bonus if their current activation conditions weren't met.

I like my Idea >:|

But that one is nice too... Would really help some weaponskills, While not breaking some, and its not ridiculously broken.

[Byrth]

If THF was reliably able to force Rudra's to crit every ~30 seconds without spending time circling the monster and asking their friends to move closer to it, stop spinning it, etc., it would be a big boost to their damage and a big load off the annoying-ness factor of catering to a THF.

[SpankWustler]

I guess since this topic took off, I'll post my outright opinion rather than trying to explain a bit of reasoning I don't even agree with.

Making some of a job's weapon skills weaker because a job has abilities to enhance weapon skills is fist-fight-over-a-pudding-cup retarded. Especially considering Sneak Attack and Trick Attack are Thief's only damaging abilities.

Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, and Climactic Flourish exist primarily to increase weapon skill damage. Not to make a toned down weapon skill's damage acceptable compared to other options.

At the very least, Rudra's Storm could use an fTP boost at 100% to put on it par with Blade: Hi's fTP. That would maintain Rudra's Storm's synergy with those job abilities, but make the process feel like a reward for using a job ability rather than a punishment for using Rudra's Storm without one.

[Atomic_Skull]

"Description: Deals Heavy damage and weighs target down. Chance of Critical hit Varies with TP
Modifiers: 60% DEX
fTP: 5.0"
(While we're at it, do this for Mercy Stroke too, keep Mercy Stroke STR mod though)

I disagree about Mercy Stroke. Get rid of the hidden 25% Ws damage multiplier they tacked onto it back at lvl 90 (this was a ghetto solution imo) Leave the fTP at 3.0 and change it to accurately reflect the actual number of hits in the animation. Change it to TP = chance of critical hit.

In fact, do this for all relic WS, increase duration and potency of the aftermath and change the double/triple damage proc from 5% to 20%. Weapons with useless/detrimental added effects like poison should also have their added effect changed to something that is actually useful. e.g. plauge effect on Mandau rather than poison (go back and make that change at lvl 75 rather than 95, that was a mistake that should have never existed in the first place)

[Atomic_Skull]

I don't know, Maybe I'm a unique THF, I just don't understand why everyone's so comfortable Rudra's being a steaming pile of Mediocre unless its stacked... I don't mind it replacing Evisc, or DE, thats what i want it to do in fact.

I'm sure no WAR complains they don't get to use Raging Rush anymore... No MNK complains Victory Smite out-classes Asuran/Tornado... I would think.

I think a modest boost to Rudra's that would allow it to be more powerful than Evisc/DE unstacked isn't asking too much from SE, It would only server to help THF. Its not going to make THF better than WAR or MNK, But It'll help THF in a small way, which is what it needs.

Again, Like my proposed adjustment above, It would make Rudra's a fierce unstacked WS, but it would not make it any more powerful stacked than it is now. It would keep it useable a lot more often, allowing Thwast THFs to keep up Aftermath without sacrificing damage where applicable.

Chance of critical hit varies with TP

Damage varies with TP

Pick one, you can't have both. If you get your wish and they make Rudra's a TP=critical WS then you can say goodbye to fTP 3.25~5.25. Extra TP will just gain you an extra 10-15% critical hit rate and you won't be seeing 6k+ Rudras anymore.

Know what would be better than changing Rudras?

An ability that:

Forces a critical hit on the next WS regardless of direction.
Changes STR/Attack relationship to 1:1 on the next WS.
Has a 20 second cooloff and shares it's recast timer with Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.

[Atomic_Skull]

3k Rudra's in Abyssea should make you sad, not jealous. Look at this thread (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/23414/rudras-storm-dmg-pics/7/#1422867), haha.

If they bumped up Rudra's base fTP by 1 and let it crit hit, I'd only need 1 WS macro.

All piercing weak peon mobs on that thread. Someone in my LS did over 10k to Ironclad Cleaver with Mercy Stroke. When you take away the *1.5 damage that's still over 7k to an iron giant. (I imagine he must have been using temps and Assassin's Charge to do that though)

[noodles355]

Nonsense. VS is still very effective used by a PUP and is far better than the previous best WSSmite has effectively 5.25 FTP (2.25+1+1+1) and 60% STR WSC.
Pummel has effectlvely 5.75 FPT (0.75+1+1+1+1+1) and 32% STR 32% VIT WSC.
I wouldn't call that "Far better".

[Karbuncle]

Firstly I'd like to mirror Spankwustler's sentiments, they hit the nail on the head with my argument. SA and TA should make good WS's Great, not Mediocre Weaponskills "Acceptable". The purposeful weakening of our Weaponskills because of those abilities is getting old.


Chance of critical hit varies with TP

Damage varies with TP

You confuse me Atom! From the first post you quoted I was for "Change it to crit with a high fTP mod".

Later on Byrth suggested a Raise in the fTP to 4.25~4.5 but keep the rest similar (I.E a flat 1.0 increase to fTP across the board), or, an increase to 1.0fTP, Which i also agreed with. So i like both ideas, and either or would work!


Pick one, you can't have both.

You can have "Critical hit WS" with "Damage varies with TP". Look at True Strike... "Deals Critical Damage(critical hit 100%). Accuracy Varies with TP". So we could have both, if they made it 100% Crit. Which i do doubt however.

I still think a 5.0fTP Chance of crit WS would not break Rudra's, It'd make it respectable unstacked, but stacked damage would remain the same, in fact 0.25fTP Weaker than it is now at 300%!

But this make indeed be asking a bit too much...


If you get your wish and they make Rudra's a TP=critical WS then you can say goodbye to fTP 3.25~5.25. Extra TP will just gain you an extra 10-15% critical hit rate and you won't be seeing 6k+ Rudras anymore.

Speculation! There is no proof to this, its only a pessimistic point of view. Why do you think that a already terribly weak weaponskill unstacked will have to be nerfed in order to make it useful unstacked?

Maybe back in the days of CoP, I'd of agreed with you, But not today. The Dev has some hope...


Know what would be better than changing Rudras?

An ability that:

Forces a critical hit on the next WS regardless of direction.
Changes STR/Attack relationship to 1:1 on the next WS.
Has a 20 second cooloff and shares it's recast timer with Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.

those still fall in line with the main problem i try to address with the weaponskil. I do like the general idea though, Very much.

To make it clearer, WAR doesn't need any Job ability active to make ukko's outperform Raging Rush, MNK Vic / Asuran, THF should not need a job ability to make their mediocre DD abilities less mediocre. The job is already bottom of the barrel, Restricting it more and more is just what I'd like to avoid.

I just have faith SE would update the WS and not be Old-team bad. A lot has changed, Increasing Critical hit Damage cap to 100%, increasing Fast cast Cap, etc. A lot of that stuff makes me believe we don't need to sacrifice anything to make this WS useful. It can happen, and its not asking for anything that other jobs don't already have. (Again, aside from the ones already explained)

Also Again, I like your idea, It would actually be pretty well, It still kinda falls in line with the aspect of limiting the abilities, but there is a lot of freedom in it, so i don't hate it at all. However, with Rudra's, It would still need a little fTP boost @ 100% TP to make it useable over Evisc/DE without sacrificing damage on WS for Aftermath.

Thanks for reading!

[Leonlionheart]

All piercing weak peon mobs on that thread. Someone in my LS did over 10k to Ironclad Cleaver with Mercy Stroke. When you take away the *1.5 damage that's still over 7k to an iron giant. (I imagine he must have been using temps and Assassin's Charge to do that though)

If it's only *1.5 damage, that means my Ukko's would've normally done 11.5k! While not unbelievable on Visions or Scars mobs, that's pretty hard to believe on high defense mobs like Ironclads.

No, more like *2, and more realistically more like *2.5 considering their defense and the lack of attack that THF gets. I think I read somewhere that it's actually *3 though, which makes that damage pretty sad.

[Atomic_Skull]

If it's only *1.5 damage, that means my Ukko's would've normally done 11.5k! While not unbelievable on Visions or Scars mobs, that's pretty hard to believe on high defense mobs like Ironclads.

No, more like *2, and more realistically more like *2.5 considering their defense and the lack of attack that THF gets. I think I read somewhere that it's actually *3 though, which makes that damage pretty sad.

It's *1.5 to one damage type after it does a WS and *0.5 to all other damage types.

If it were *2 or *3 you would have 15-25k Ukko's when it was in slashing mode. Highest I've ever seen Ukko's on that particular mob is 12kish and this was from someone that averages 6-8k ukkos normally with spikes above 10k sometimes.

[Karbuncle]

As expected.

You cant hide from the truth!

[Atomic_Skull]

This is my best Ukko's Fury.

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/204/averageukkos.jpg

It's a screenshot so it must be true.

[Byrth]

Went back into the BG damage thread and found this (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/91236-Fapworthy-WS-SC-or-MB-damage-IV-We-can-t-read-your-black-text-or-Comic-Sans?p=4690928&viewfull=1#post4690928) as the most recent Ukko vs. Ironclad Smiter SS. Someone else posted an 11k Ukko's to Heqet, so I guess it could be only a factor of 2? Not very important though, honestly, because it's in Abyssea.

It would be nice if Rudra's got a buff. I'm not holding my breath though.

[Atomic_Skull]

Went back into the BG damage thread and found this (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/91236-Fapworthy-WS-SC-or-MB-damage-IV-We-can-t-read-your-black-text-or-Comic-Sans?p=4690928&viewfull=1#post4690928) as the most recent Ukko vs. Ironclad Smiter SS. Someone else posted an 11k Ukko's to Heqet, so I guess it could be only a factor of 2? Not very important though, honestly, because it's in Abyssea.


When I see a screencap that falls far outside what is known/tested I just assume it's been faked because it probably has been. 5 minutes with photoshop can create any damage numbers you want.

[Byrth]

When I see a screencap that falls far outside what is known/tested I just assume it's been faked because it probably has been. 5 minutes with photoshop can create any damage numbers you want.

Okay, well it looks like that guy has been consistently faking his screenshots then. People have posted 11k Ukko's on Glavoid as well. If you look back far enough in the thread, you'll find people telling someone that his 10k Ukko's against Smiter is a joke because the thing takes double damage.

[Karbuncle]

When I see a screencap that falls far outside what is known/tested I just assume it's been faked because it probably has been. 5 minutes with photoshop can create any damage numbers you want.

You're right. I've photoshopped this entire thread. Oh, and I photoshopped your opinion too.

I'd prove it to you but It'd be photoshopped as well, So you'll just have to take my Photoshop for it.

[Korpg]

You're right. I've photoshopped this entire thread. Oh, and I photoshopped your opinion too.

I'd prove it to you but It'd be photoshopped as well, So you'll just have to take my Photoshop for it.

I Photoshopped your Summoner.

[SpankWustler]

It would be nice if Rudra's got a buff. I'm not holding my breath though.

I assume things will wither remain the same or change for the worse, in both FFXI and life. Any other outcome is a pleasant surprise that I initially view with suspicion.

It's always worked out really well for FFXI, and better than I'd like to think about for life.

[Laphine]

got that right. I just wish both RL and FF had a bit more happy endings and cliches lol

[Karbuncle]

FFXI does have happy endings, Just not for THF.

No sir, Not for us, Thanks to Placebo Hunter.

[SpankWustler]

FFXI does have happy endings, Just not for THF.

Having saved the day, Krabnuckle is riding off into the sunset on his white chocobo. As he rides into the sunset, a small town is thankful for his valiant efforts and a woman has promised to wait for him. Evil has been vanquished and good has triumphed.

Suddenly, a robotic pterodactyl that shoots lasers out of it's eyes and ears and nose spots Krabnuckle's Raider's Bonnet +2. It swoops down and kills him. Then it kills everyone in the small town. Then it kills the woman. It kills her twice.

[Karbuncle]

i Lol'd... hard :X