Weapon Skill Adjustment

[Zoner]

I remember SE talking about a ws adjustment in the upcoming update, so what is everyone's thought on which weapon skills need to be adjusted? Do you think the more powerful ws will be brought down or the weaker ones brought up?

As a Redemption DRK I'd like to see Quietus bought up to Torcleaver's level atleast. I'm just hope this update bring buffs and not nerfs...

[Arcon]

I'm just hope this update bring buffs and not nerfs...

I don't know how anyone in their right mind can want even more buffs. The recent buffs were a complete mistake and it needs to be brought down a lot. That includes all empyrean WS and gear, as well as caps on certain effects.

[Zoner]

I don't know how anyone in their right mind can want even more buffs. The recent buffs were a complete mistake and it needs to be brought down a lot. That includes all empyrean WS and gear, as well as caps on certain effects.

Wouldn't it be better to bring Relic and Mythic WS up rather then bring Empyrean down?

[Arcon]

Wouldn't it be better to bring Relic and Mythic WS up rather then bring Empyrean down?

No .

[Mordanthos]

No .

no, because relic and mythic is lvl 75 old content. When lvl 75 stuff starts to equal or trump the lvl 90 stuff, this game doesnt know how to do it correctly. And maybe SE should study WoW or LoTrO closely to learn something.

[Arcon]

no, because relic and mythic is lvl 75 old content. When lvl 75 stuff starts to equal or trump the lvl 90 stuff, this game doesnt know how to do it correctly. And maybe SE should study WoW or LoTrO closely to learn something.

Very little in this game is done correctly. SE should study Blizzard, not WoW.

[Leonlionheart]

Very little in this game is done correctly. SE should study Blizzard, not WoW.

Um... I think you may be confused, but Blizzard makes WoW.

I think Relics and Mythics should become top-tier weapons instead of Empyreans, because Emps are just so easy to make now, when they were already way faster than the other two.

Anyway, on topic, in terms of Weaponskills I think that many of them need buffs. Particularly the ones we got during the lvl 80 cap. The only useful ones out of that bunch were sanguine blade, aeolian edge, and fell cleave. Arguably Cataclysm, but aeolian edge is better for amber anyway. The rest are just... really bad. I actually think that they might improve on the potency of elemental weaponskills, since they are giving, or rather have talked about giving, DRK an elemental ws boost JA.

[uptempo]

no, because relic and mythic is lvl 75 old content. When lvl 75 stuff starts to equal or trump the lvl 90 stuff, this game doesnt know how to do it correctly. And maybe SE should study WoW or LoTrO closely to learn something.

Of course relics and mythics should be buffed up and as we already know they are doing this.

Galka empys begin there life at 75 no matter what way you look at it and relics at level 1.

[Arcon]

Um... I think you may be confused, but Blizzard makes WoW.

That's what I meant, they should study the company, not the game. WoW is boring, but Blizzard does things right as a company. Customer support, game support, etc.

[Leonlionheart]

That's what I meant, they should study the company, not the game. WoW is boring, but Blizzard does things right as a company. Customer support, game support, etc.

So your argument really has nothing to do about the actual update and WS, but actually is just another gripe about the payment change.

[Zoner]

No .

Ok so what would a reasonable amount of damage in your opinion be? For comparison Guillotine(acquired at lvl60 drk) can hit 1-2k dmg outside of abyssea, Quietus ranges 600-1500 inside and outside abyssea.

*edit-please keep opinions of SE as a whole to a separate thread.

[Cursed]

That's what I meant, they should study the company, not the game. WoW is boring, but Blizzard does things right as a company. Customer support, game support, etc.

Indeed they do. However, SE is no longer a Japanese company run by Japanese senior management that are focused on quality. There's a lot of chinese, european and American influence in SE now. It is a company that has leveraged its reputation towards maximum short term profit. Yes, even in the world of gaming the speculators and share betters are ruining it for us all.

Square soft was a great company, and Square Enix was fine for the first 4 years of its existance. But then it turned on its fans, a generation of indy youth outside the mainstream and started marketing itself towards a greater audience.

What SE failed to realize is that there was nothing wrong with the message (their unique games) but in the delivery method (consoles, limited advertizing and an inablity to keep up with modern trends of communication).
Instead of turning on their fan base and looking elsewhere for greater profits, they could have easily solidified their consumer base as a global phenomenon by nurturing and growing it. That would have cost a bit of money and some good communication campaigns (something the Japanese are HORRIBLE at). Instead, they chose short term profits and replicated the american and current international financial model; leverage everything to the max and try to buck in on it before anyone realizes we're selling them bullshit.

SE could have gained a world of experience by listening to PR firms like Edelman and Impact Porter Novel, instead they listened to wall street financial firms such as JP morgan and yes, Goldman "hack and sell" sachs.

Research this stuff and look at just how many SE senior employees have recently returned to the company after a half decade leave from it.

[Leonlionheart]

Isn't that pretty much the business strategy of all gaming companies these days? Except, of course, Blizzard, who seems to have always done everything right.

[Economizer]

no, because relic and mythic is lvl 75 old content. When lvl 75 stuff starts to equal or trump the lvl 90 stuff, this game doesnt know how to do it correctly.

Hexa Strike (old content) still trumps the Empyrean Club WS in damage. Of course, I'm sure that unless I point it out right now, most people would reply something about White Mage being a terrible DD rather then focusing on the fact that the Empyrean Club/Staff both have non-damaging WS.

The White Mage Relic weapon is still strictly better then the Empyrean for fulfilling its function of more damage, unless the White Mage Empyrean club was made for tanking...

Let's all flip some tables for new weapon skills for everyone! (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

[Arcon]

So your argument really has nothing to do about the actual update and WS, but actually is just another gripe about the payment change.

No, it was a reply to Mordanthos, who said SE should learn from WoW. I just said they should learn from Blizzard, but not from WoW, as I don't think the game elements there are something to strive for (which, sadly, I think they did with Abyssea).

I already said what I think about the weapon skill situation. I think most empyrean weapon skills are largely overpowered, and same goes for buffs/gear outside of empyrean weapons, and I believe it should all be downscaled. That's not to say that some WS aren't better/worse than others. I know about the situation of Quietus for example, and that's just one of many balancing issues I think they need to consider. Still, I don't believe it should be made stronger to go with the other empyreans, I think empyreans should be downscaled. I don't mind them being stronger than other WS, or even stronger than relics, but right now they operate at a level which is untouchable for anything else. As an example, Widowmaker WAR is already overpowered, and Ukonvasara WAR can practically double the damage output still. I don't think there should be such a gap there.

[Coldbrand]

No they don't, they nerf every class, every patch, repeatedly. That design mentality sucks, and so does their trash homogeny mentality. You don't know what you're talking about. Buffs, not nerfs. If you like eating nerfs so much, go play LoL or WoW.

[Leonlionheart]

It's funny when people bash WoW, it's like they think their opinion on why it sucks is better than the 11million that pay monthly for it, and have for the last 6 years.

[Coldbrand]

Who gives a crap? By that logic farmville is the epitome of gaming.

[SpankWustler]

I can't seem to find any weapon skills named Impact Porter Novel or WoW. Which weapon are you guys using?

Elemental weapon skills could do to be a bit less awful, particularly the higher level ones like Leaden Salute or True Flight. Sanguine Blade seems like the perfect model for a good elemental weapon skill. Generally less damage than Vorpal Blade, but it's a different type of damage and comes with a useful additional effect.

I wouldn't mind if more weapon skills had usable damage along with additional effects, such as if the StuffBreak line dealt more damage. Not large amounts of damage, but enough to be situational similar to Sanguine Blade compared to Vorpal Blade.

Weaponskills that ignore defense should actually ignore a meaningful amount of defense. As it stands, they would be better off with just the hidden "attack" boost that many single hit weapon skills receive.

Weird modifiers on Relic weapon skills could do with a change. It doesn't have to be 50-75% STR across the board, but some of them were picked through skillful application of a blindfold, a dartboard, and a guy standing beside the dartboard who spitefully added a nonsensical secondary modifier whenever a dart hit him.

And so on and so on.

[Leonlionheart]

Who gives a crap? By that logic farmville is the epitome of gaming.

Maybe SE should learn from Farmville's business strategy instead of Blizzard's then, hmm?

[Economizer]

Elemental weapon skills could do to be a bit less awful, particularly the higher level ones like Leaden Salute or True Flight. Sanguine Blade seems like the perfect model for a good elemental weapon skill. Generally less damage than Vorpal Blade, but it's a different type of damage and comes with a useful additional effect.

Watching a Blue Mage effortlessly break 1k damage outside abyssea, or a Red Mage effortlessly do over 600-700 damage with Aeolian Edge is a bit soulcrushing when Flash Nova doesn't seem to do more then a little over 400 damage, even on stuff like undead or even Dark Elementals. I'm not asking to do numbers like they do in Abyssea with perfectly set atmas, but an increased boost at the low end would be nice, especially since the weapon skill hardly does anything special, and is not multi-target.

[SNK]

Cloudsplitter needs a buff. The fact you have to use Elemental Atmas for it to even put out good numbers while saccing a decent amount of TP Regain Atmas makes it sad.

[Mizuharu]

God I had to skim through a lot of Square-Enix s**t talking just to find posts about weapon skills...

Here's what I'm hoping for with this weapon skill adjustment update.

1) New Weapon Skills for 90~95 (Though I doubt it since it's an adjustment)

2) Enhancing the damage on Relic Weapon Skills (Perhaps making them crit like their Empyrean counterparts. Or the Occ. DMGx2~4 procs on WSs also rather than just JAs/Normal attacks.)

3) Adding jobs onto existing weapon skills (I've seen so many RDMs ask for Red Lotus/Seraph Blade and I have to agree with them. They SHOULD get those WSs naturally. (And PUP on Asuran Fists since we get the 250 required skill by 74 Dx))

[Coldbrand]

Cloudsplitter needs a buff. The fact you have to use Elemental Atmas for it to even put out good numbers while saccing a decent amount of TP Regain Atmas makes it sad.

I think it's basically polearm/axe/dagger/scythe and maybe armageddon (outside aby only) that need some tweaking as far as Empyreans go, but no matter how many constructive posts I'd make for the reps, none of them respond.

It'll suck if ukon/verethragna etc. ruin it for the small minority of emps that are in need of buffs assuming the rest of the relic/mythic buffs are as good as aegis/burtgang were.

[Malacite]

What I'd like to see:

- No nerfs, please. So help me God if SE nerfs any WS...
- BIG buff to elemental WS, especially the lower level ones. It shouldn't take Atma/Primeval Brew to make them even remotely viable.
- Buff some of the weaker/disappointing WS that really need it - such as Camlann's Torment. DRG didn't need a Wheeling Thrust +1. Possibly change Insurgency to a critical-hit WS.
- Give RDM access to the EX Weaponskills natively. At the very least, give RDM Sanguine Blade natively.

[SpankWustler]

Watching a Blue Mage effortlessly break 1k damage outside abyssea, or a Red Mage effortlessly do over 600-700 damage with Aeolian Edge is a bit soulcrushing when Flash Nova doesn't seem to do more then a little over 400 damage, even on stuff like undead or even Dark Elementals. I'm not asking to do numbers like they do in Abyssea with perfectly set atmas, but an increased boost at the low end would be nice, especially since the weapon skill hardly does anything special, and is not multi-target.

Flash Nova VS Aeolian Edge and Sanguine Blade is a really good example. Flash Nova is single target, yet instead of the formula being comparable to that of Sanguine Blade, it's much closer to that of Aeolian Edge.

They're all gained around the same level, so I don't understand the logic. Is Flash really that awesome an additional effect?

Cloudsplitter is even more incomprehensible. Even at 200% TP, it doesn't have a TP modifier on par with Wildfire. At 300%, it's barely higher.

That elemental weapon skills aren't even uniformly awful is what really gets me, because I can't understand the thought that goes into making some more awful than others.

Oh, and note some of my values might be off if the wiki is off. Which would surprise me about as much as feeling a need to poop within the next sixteen days.

[Atomic_Skull]

no, because relic and mythic is lvl 75 old content. When lvl 75 stuff starts to equal or trump the lvl 90 stuff, this game doesnt know how to do it correctly. And maybe SE should study WoW or LoTrO closely to learn something.

Relics and mythics are lvl 90 weapons that take years to upgrade.

[Atomic_Skull]

2) Enhancing the damage on Relic Weapon Skills (Perhaps making them crit like their Empyrean counterparts. Or the Occ. DMGx2~4 procs on WSs also rather than just JAs/Normal attacks.)


Increase the duration and potency of aftermath.
Increase the proc rate of double/triple damage on relics from 5% to 20%

And one of the following:

Change the hidden relic WS damage multiplier from 25% to 25%~75% based on TP

or

Remove hidden relic WS damage multiplier. Change all relic WS to TP=crit% and change them to accurately reflect the # of hits in their animations.

[Coldbrand]

What I'd like to see:

- No nerfs, please. So help me God if SE nerfs any WS...
- BIG buff to elemental WS, especially the lower level ones. It shouldn't take Atma/Primeval Brew to make them even remotely viable.
- Buff some of the weaker/disappointing WS that really need it - such as Camlann's Torment. DRG didn't need a Wheeling Thrust +1. Possibly change Insurgency to a critical-hit WS.
- Give RDM access to the EX Weaponskills natively. At the very least, give RDM Sanguine Blade natively.

Not that the devs respond or care but it's wheeling thrust -1 since it starts at 10% and goes up to 50% ignoring where as wt starts at 50%, pretty messed up, right? Even that wouldn't be enough alone though. They're gonna' ignore the posts about emps, buff mythic/relic then realize in the middle of next year a few empyreans are lagging behind and by christmas time we'll get their first test buffs to see if it'll fix those ws.

[Rearden]

The best thing SE has ever done is not try to balance the game based on people whining their job/ws/abilities/dog sucks in game content that's not applicable to 99% of FFXI.

[Coldbrand]

The best thing SE has ever done is not try to balance the game based on people whining their job/ws/abilities/dog sucks in game content that's not applicable to 99% of FFXI.

With the advent of empyreans it's nowhere near that skewed anymore.

[Rearden]

I'll caveat with "aside from upgrading Relics/Mythics" - these are the only things that should continue to be enhanced, and their enhancement isn't really applicable inside of Abyssea anyways. They are great outside, as is everything else that was great at 75.

[Malacite]

Besides, aren't we getting a test server soon, so we can actually, you know, test things?


I think the updates overall will go a lot smoother and be generally better received once it's up and running and we can actually try things out (like WS changes) prior to the major updates going live. Ultimately any changes are up to SE in the end, but I feel like our input will be that much more validated by actually getting to try out changes that are still in the works.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

Buffs, not nerfs. If you like eating nerfs so much, go play LoL or WoW.

A steady diet of player buffs and no nerfs is what made Lesser Colibri the epic challenge they were, a trend that has only continued into Abyssea where players can duo NMs. You can't bring back challenge and skill to the game by buffing players. Give us more difficult mobs, or actually nerf the player abilities/items that are too overpowered, or both.

SE has always been pathologically afraid to nerf anything -- even the most obviously broken designer mistakes like ridill and kclub is unnerfed to this day. I'm willing to cut them some slack for making those items in the first place -- clearly they didn't realize how powerful their tp generation or Souleater with those items was going to be -- but not fixing their mistake for years on end is pretty lousy game design.

Balance isn't just about one job vs. another job, but also about players vs. monsters. Without that kind of balance, you can't maintain an appropriate level of challenge in content.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

P.S. Mobs being too squishy and atma being too overpowered are what make certain WS, especially multihits/crits, OP now. Harder targets and non-atma-based content would bring their damage into line.

[Economizer]

P.S. Mobs being too squishy and atma being too overpowered are what make certain WS, especially multihits/crits, OP now. Harder targets and non-atma-based content would bring their damage into line.

Certain WS actually do fairly high amounts of damage outside Abyssea though. Sanguine Blade and Aeolian Edge do pretty fair amounts of damage as is, without any Abyssea, whereas stuff like Flash Nova feels a tad underpowered outside (and to a lesser extent, inside, but this is due to a lack of AOE and such that isn't really an issue).

[Zoner]

P.S. Mobs being too squishy and atma being too overpowered are what make certain WS, especially multihits/crits, OP now. Harder targets and non-atma-based content would bring their damage into line.

It's more than this, sometimes i wonder if the devs troll us when they setup the ws mods. I imagine the day they made Quietus went like this:

Dev1: So did you finish up the new empyrean scythe weaponskill?

Dev2: Just finished, take a look at this

Dev1: ....

Dev1: You set the fTP at 3.0 and made MND one of the WS mods??

Dev2: Yup

Dev1: Doesn't Dark Knight have one of the lowest mind ratings and lack reasonable mnd gear to make using on this weaponskill worthwhile?

Dev2: Maybe..

Dev1: How do you think they will feel after they've done all those Chloris pop NMs you programmed in yesterday only to realize guillotine has higher damage?

Dev2:
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[Ophannus]

Blizzard couldn't balance a damned cube. They tweak jobs to the extreme such that one update a job will be massively superior then the next update they're crap. Although it's funny when they nerf jobs, they give an in-game reason. Like Paladins have lost XXX ability because XXXX Boss is evil and took it from them.

[Ophannus]

I think it's basically polearm/axe/dagger/scythe and maybe armageddon (outside aby only) that need some tweaking as far as Empyreans go, but no matter how many constructive posts I'd make for the reps, none of them respond.

What is this I don't even...

Inside Abyssea it owns.
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5107/ffxi20110202212412.png

Outside Abyssea still owns
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4e31360789118b095f006252.jpg

[Arcon]

What is this I don't even...

Inside Abyssea it owns.
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5107/ffxi20110202212412.png

Outside Abyssea still owns
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4e31360789118b095f006252.jpg

In what universe is that own?

[Leonlionheart]

7k is pretty good damage, if you ask me. Although lolsurveyor

2.3k on the other hand...

[Arcon]

7k is pretty good damage, if you ask me. Although lolsurveyor

Not only lolsurveyors, but also food, temp items and just used Striking Flourish. And this is quite possibly a lucky shot, otherwise no one would make a screenshot. But lucky shots don't really matter, it's the average that's interesting.

[Leonlionheart]

Well 3~7k every 1.5minutes to get 300% aftermath up is nothing to scoff at imo. During that time you can just Evisceration as much as you want.
Now Redemption and Rhongomiont have it bad. That's like 1~3k every 1.5minutes to get 300% aftermath up.

Rudra's is also still best outside, where as Scythe WS's suck outside period, and Drakesbane is better everywhere.

[SpankWustler]

Meanwhile, Cloudsplitter is so disappointing under normal conditions that you can't even bring yourself to mention it.

[Duelle]

They tweak jobs to the extreme such that one update a job will be massively superior then the next update they're crap.The buff-nerf rollercoaster is more for the lulz than anything else. They know the right answers. After all, the community tossed them at the devs en masse via theorycrafting and so on. The testers on the test server do their part. The devs at times don't when they chose to ignore the feedback.

Although it's funny when they nerf jobs, they give an in-game reason. Like Paladins have lost XXX ability because XXXX Boss is evil and took it from them.Not really. Most of the time it has some sort of explanation from the developers. Once in a while you'll get the "we just felt XX was OP, so we nerfed it" (see: Vindication nerf).

As for WS, the elemental WS could use a buff. The mods could also be changed to something more uniform and offense-oriented.

[Soidisant]

Instead of them nerfing stuff like Ukko's directly, I'd rather them introduce crit resistant/immune mobs as a pseudo nerf.

[Runespider]

Relics need a massive boost to both the WS and the aftermath, rages me that when I wanna have fun on a melee job I use my emps and I pretty much haven't touched my relic in over a year. Took me 2 years to finish relic and I had to do a disgusting amount of camps and stuff to make money to get it done, and now it's pretty much garbage.

So yeah make relics/mythics the absoloute best DD weapons in the game but leave emps as they are I guess.