New idea for Spirits...?

[MakkotoParinne]

Avatar's Essence
Job Ability: Summoner level 75
Duration: until Avatar is desummoned or icon is removed manually
Recast: 1 minute

Summons an elemental spirit of your avatar's element to assist.

So, like two pets at once without being able to control it the same way. Think about it like an adventuring fellow. The spirit would be summoned and share hate with the avatar, casting its random spells and meleeing the same target.
This stance would add 5 perpetuation cost, which may be reduced to 0 with merits into elemental perpetuation cost. Elemental Siphon may also be used, but only at 3/4 power.

This way, you can add some DoT, enjoy your spirits (to all us spirit junkies out there), use Elemental Siphon in a situation where it would be inappropriate to desummon, what have you.

The thought just occured to me, and I thought it would give reason to have elemental perpetuation merits in the first place, along with mimicking the Avatar fights for Waking the Beast, where the Avatars have Elementals to assist them.

Tell me what you think!

[Razushu]

(Insert witty Avatar's something here)
Job Ability: Summoner level 75
Duration: until Avatar is desummoned or icon is removed manually
Recast: 1 minute

Summons an elemental of your avatar's element to assist.

So, like two pets at once without being able to control it the same way. Think about it like an adventuring fellow. The spirit would be summoned and share hate with the avatar, casting its random spells and meleeing the same target.
This stance would add 10 perpetuation cost, which may be reduced to 5 with merits into elemental perpetuation cost. Elemental Siphon may also be used, but only at 3/4 power.

This way, you can add some DoT, enjoy your spirits (to all us spirit junkies out there), use Elemental Siphon in a situation where it would be inappropriate to desummon, what have you.

The thought just occured to me, and I thought it would give reason to have elemental perpetuation merits in the first place, along with mimicking the Avatar fights for Waking the Beast, where the Avatars have Elementals to assist them.

Tell me what you think, suggestions, a name, whatever works. ;3

+10 perp is a bit too steep tbh, maybe +3 would be fine. What if instead of meleeing they just nuked, but had the ability to cast nukes of their element on the Avatar to heal it if it goes <50%HP.

[Korpg]

Take away the +10 perp cost, and it might actually be a viable addition. Would at least give spirits meaning again outside of getting MP quickly. And its not like we can control them at all anyway, so it wouldn't hurt having another pet out that you can't control, like an adventure fellow.

Also, what Raz said about casting spells on the avatar to heal them is also a very good idea.

This is the first idea about spirits that I really hope SE would look into. It would help regular SMNs out a lot, it would help the 2 meleers out there for extra damage, and it would help the WHM wanabees out by having both carbuncle and light spirit out to help cure.

[Razushu]

Take away the +10 perp cost, and it might actually be a viable addition. Would at least give spirits meaning again outside of getting MP quickly. And its not like we can control them at all anyway, so it wouldn't hurt having another pet out that you can't control, like an adventure fellow.

Also, what Raz said about casting spells on the avatar to heal them is also a very good idea.

This is the first idea about spirits that I really hope SE would look into. It would help regular SMNs out a lot, it would help the 2 meleers out there for extra damage, and it would help the WHM wanabees out by having both carbuncle and light spirit out to help cure.

I hadn't thought about the Carbuncle/Light spirit that would be a really nice addition for those ":( I gotta main heal moments".

[Korpg]

That alone would make a lot of SMNs happy. And a lot unhappy, because then people would think that we have become gimp WHMs again...

[Razushu]

That alone would make a lot of SMNs happy. And a lot unhappy, because then people would think that we have become gimp WHMs again...

I never really ran into that stigma before, and it is something we used to be able to replace a WHM at in a pinch, so I figure why the hell not sometimes. Although I do get the PSTD some people have with SMN main heal from their own experiences.

[Korpg]

People thought that because of our huge mana pool, we would make better WHMs than, well, WHMs. Which is true from level 1 to 10, but as soon as WHM got cure II, we were out of the WHM job. But they still think to this day that SMN is just another form of healer.

But we are getting off track again.

[Razushu]

People thought that because of our huge mana pool, we would make better WHMs than, well, WHMs. Which is true from level 1 to 10, but as soon as WHM got cure II, we were out of the WHM job. But they still think to this day that SMN is just another form of healer.

But we are getting off track again.

Yeah lol, back on topic maybe the spirit could act as some kind of buffer too, it grants the avatar an enspell/spikes/Stoneskin etc.

[Malamasala]

My opinion: The risk of sleep and silence forcing you to do a release the avatar to get a new spirit is negative enough to not need any other penalties.

SE's likely opinion: Full 20 MP per tick additional spirit perpetuation. 50% damage reduction on BP:Rage. No Elemental Siphon available. Else it would be "unbalanced" with 2 pets.

[Razushu]

My opinion: The risk of sleep and silence forcing you to do a release the avatar to get a new spirit is negative enough to not need any other penalties.

SE's likely opinion: Full 20 MP per tick additional spirit perpetuation. 50% damage reduction on BP:Rage. No Elemental Siphon available. Else it would be "unbalanced" with 2 pets.

I think it's your optimism that I like most about you Mala:D, jk. Although I kind of argee with you that SE wouldn't consider your opinion enough trade off, maybe lack of Siphon alone in there eyes to balance an ability like this.

[MakkotoParinne]

Thanks for the feedback. ;D

No perpetuation cost was my initial thought, but I thought it might make it a little unbalanced. Maybe 5 perp. reduced to 0 with merits? (Merits into spirit perp. cost being the cause of the idea)

Being able to heal the Avatar would be nice, too, so that way, it can actually restore some HP without using a BP:Ward, making it a little more viable for soloing.

[MakkotoParinne]

Also, I very much like the idea of it staying put, much like an automaton. The idea behind the merits is it's like a choice between meriting your avatar solely or using a free spirit to help out, betting on the chance it will cast a nuke (which should be a little stronger) rather than cast Elemental DoT.

[Korpg]

Spirits don't really add much damage as is anyway. They are uncontrollable, and can take forever to cast a spell.

Having them out with the avatar won't hurt any other job in damage, it won't unbalance this job because we are in a real need for a buff to increase our damage output to anywhere near other jobs, and spirits are like BRD charmed mobs, except we can use Assault and Retreat with it.

We don't need to have an extra cost to keep spirits out if we have the avatars out at the same time, because they are adding a random amount of damage to our overall DoT, plus additional survivability. Plus, most SMN NMs can summon more than 1 pet at a time, why can't we?

[Soundwave]

This stance would add 10 perpetuation cost, which may be reduced to 5 with merits into elemental perpetuation cost. Elemental Siphon may also be used, but only at 3/4 power.

Is this stance in your eyes for solo summoners only? That's the way I'm seeing it unless I'm blinded from something.

**Edit never mind I missed our post

Also I posted something similar to this but it was for ESiphion, and reflected this post in some way. This is the only spirit post that actually sparked my interest.

My thoughts....

While your stance is activated and having Avatar/spirit out, allow commands to tell the spirit what mode to be in.

-Attacker
-Healer
-Buffer
-Enfeebler
*Much like Assault and retreat.

While keeping balance in mind for party type buffing I think the spirit should only help the avatar or the summoner not the party in this case. *The situation of Carby/Light spirit for main healing a party*

[MakkotoParinne]

I suppose you're right, Korpg. That would be a lot more practical, considering their behavior, but there has to be a downside (slight as it may be), otherwise SE probably wouldn't look into it at all. The reason behind it is either merit your stats for a better avatar, or merit spirit cost to get a free assistant. I changed my original post to reflect this.

I think LightSpirit's AI should be the same, just maybe cast Cures at a higher percentage of HP. It should still cast buffs, perhaps on whoever has more hate first instead of what it's facing, but otherwise cast divine spells and enfeebles if Carbuncle is commanded to Assault. Many Summoners in other games have decent healing ability, I think Yuna did, if I remember right, so why not have a healing Avatar with a healing spirit, assisted by a Summoner with healing spells?
Sounds pretty efficient if you ask me. It would just be another role we could fill if needed. :)

[Korpg]

There is already a downside, we will never be as good as the main jobs in the party. We are also limited by one element at a time (having Titan out will always summon EarthSpirit, you get the picture), so we can't change out elements on the fly. Plus, our main damage is still limited by the BP timer and MP used to use BPs.

That ability could be like every time you use a Rage BP, your spirit would cast a spell against the mob the Rage was used against and every time you use a Ward BP, your spirit would cast a buff (or healing spell in the case of LightSpirit) on itself or debuff against the mob.

And even that is limited so you can't BP back to back on itself due to the spirits casting time (if you use Geocrush and EarthSpirit starts casting Quake, you can't use a BP Ward and expect the spirit to stop casting Quake to use Stoneskin).

[solodragon1984]

that sounds like a great idea for smn and with 5 -perp and it'll make spirits useful instead of only for MP regain from elemental siphon

[solodragon1984]

btw i found a NM that has both avatar AND Spirit out and it's at same time that it's out forgot exactly where cause it was over 2 years ago when i saw it

[Korpg]

You are talking about Crimson-toothed Pawberry. That is nothing new.

[solodragon1984]

but see SE should let us SMN's summon both but no we smn are getting the short end of the stick when it comes to power yes the new stun BP would help but 4 sec delay is gonna defect the idea for stun if you cant stun Mobs Moves but still it'll help a little and i do mean a little

[Covenant]

I posted something similar, jokingly under the spirits/avatar thread. However, why have summoner suffer perp loss? Wouldn't a one time "high cost" bloodpact be better? Say in the 300mp range? I view this as the avatar summoning additional help. The add-on spirit could then only stay "out" as long as the avatar is "out".

[MakkotoParinne]

The stance should have a perpetuation increase because the Summoner is making a choice. Merit into your Avatar to make hit-for-hit or BP-for-BP do the maximum possible damage, or have merits into Spirit cost to have pets that aren't as strong, but have the possibility to trump the former. A one time cost would put your MP on the line where it would be inappropriate to spend that much. It just makes it a little more balanced, a give and take, if you will, especially if you wanted to Elemental Siphon while you had an Avatar out. You would spend 300 MP to gain 3/4 of what you normally Siphon for. (Personally, I'd rather add a negatable 5 perp. cost rather than spend a large chunk of MP)

Square Enix doesn't like to add things that give and don't take. (Even though they most likely would not look into this) The merits gave life to this idea in the first place, also. (From my persepective, I had no idea that someone else mentioned it on another thread) :)

[Malamasala]

Square Enix doesn't like to add things that give and don't take.

Well, some are luckier than others. Like SAM gets their penalty as "slower spell casting"... and they have no spells. I think a fair penalty for the avatar + spirit mode would be either "lowered cure potency" or "lowered attack for master". That means you are unaffected if you do not want to cure or melee, which are of course 2 popular activities, but neither is forced on you so you could dodge the penalty completely, like a SAM.

I'm also not quite certain if NIN had any penalties at all on their modes? I think it was just restricted to behind or in front.

[MakkotoParinne]

You're right in that aspect, Summoner isn't as fortunate when it comes to job adjustments where they receive a nice gift, without giving something. As far as that goes, listing something without some sort of penalty wouldn't follow the trend our job actually has. Doesn't every job wish they should get the same attention Samurai do?

Besides, perpetuation cost is something that is easily negated, via gear or refresh. I'd much rather have the same melee "potential" (Taru Summoner here...) and cure potency while easily reducing the cost of an extra assistant. (If you didn't merit Spirit perp., it's only 5 more a tick after all)

If you were reduced to being, essentially, unable to act.. that wouldn't be very much fun. We would just sit and watch uselessly. Why does that sound familiar...?

Innin actually reduces evasion and Yonin reduces accuracy. Hasso, for that matter, nerfs any "mage" (referring to Dark Knight) attempting to use magic under the effect. Drain when you really need it while it still has 45 seconds on its timer is rather unappealing.

[Korpg]

Well, some are luckier than others. Like SAM gets their penalty as "slower spell casting"... and they have no spells. I think a fair penalty for the avatar + spirit mode would be either "lowered cure potency" or "lowered attack for master". That means you are unaffected if you do not want to cure or melee, which are of course 2 popular activities, but neither is forced on you so you could dodge the penalty completely, like a SAM.

You are right, SAM/NINs don't exist in tanking ability, or did at the time they introduced Hasso/Seigan. Are you still gung-ho about Meditate vs Mana Cede?


I'm also not quite certain if NIN had any penalties at all on their modes? I think it was just restricted to behind or in front.

Yonin has an accuracy penalty, while Innin has an Evasion penalty. Most jobs have a penalty when it comes to doing their job, with the exception of MNK, THF, and a few other jobs that exist but I can't think of right off the bat.

[Malamasala]

Are you aware of how stupid your post is? Well, you are if you are a troll, and you aren't if you are a fool. I still would like to consider you trolling me since then I won't have to accept that someone can be that dumb.

SAM/NIN exists of course. Just like melee SMN or backline SMN, which is why I suggested the penalty would be attack or cure potency for the SMN. But a SMN who doesn't melee or cure, wouldn't be effected. Just how a SAM/WAR wouldn't be effected. That is the point that wooshed over your head.

Not to mention Innin seems to follow that pattern as well. Evasion penalty when not targeted by monsters seem fairly safe. You will be hit by more AOE TP moves, but that is it. A SMN for example could have 25% damage reduction penalty on avatars, and it wouldn't really mean much else than you can't solo as well with the stance up, but in other regards it would be fairly negligable except for AOE TP moves.

But yea, wasting my breath trying to preach to the deaf.

[Korpg]

So, basically you are asking for a huge buff to SMNs with a negative stat that won't effect SMNs at all? Like Haste+25% stance with a Store TP -50 on the player (not avatar)? I mean, that is what you mean from SAM and Hasso/Seigan...

Even your example does a negative effect from a subjob ability, not the main job...

Also, you don't know anything about Innin either. It isn't used to be a tanking move, in fact, NINs use it so they can not tank. But that evasion - part hurts when they do get hate, in case you can't figure that out....

But you are just trolling now anyway...

[MakkotoParinne]

Does adding 5 perpetuation make something like this complicated? No...
Does adding things like attack, haste, cure potency, and all that stuff make it complicated? Yeah...

:x

Anyway, the point was just to make it a little more rounded, for solo or party play. Extra melee, magic DD, Elemental Siphon to support yourself. The only other thing I can see that could go wrong is adding too much TP to the monster.. if that's the issue, just don't use the ability. :O

Making it into something "dodgable" is just kinda cowardly, anyway. Abilities should be designed to do what they need to do, and make the benefit outweigh the risk. The risk here is, if not properly geared, you would lose MP at a faster rate. Not everyone has -19 perp. cost gear, so I thought it would work pretty well. MP management is Summoner's forte, I guess.

I'd really not want for this to turn into an argument between you two, thanks.

[Malamasala]

Korpg, how does it feel like to be the biggest idiot on these forums?


So, basically you are asking for a huge buff to SMNs with a negative stat that won't effect SMNs at all? Like Haste+25% stance with a Store TP -50 on the player (not avatar)? I mean, that is what you mean from SAM and Hasso/Seigan...

Exactly.


Even your example does a negative effect from a subjob ability, not the main job...

Which goes for SAM's Hasso as well. You already said this yourself, with mentioning SAM/NIN.


Also, you don't know anything about Innin either. It isn't used to be a tanking move, in fact, NINs use it so they can not tank. But that evasion - part hurts when they do get hate, in case you can't figure that out....

Which is exactly what I said again. You aren't tanking, so evasion means little. But it will mean something sometimes, like during pulled hate. (I actually didn't say the hate pulling, but it was implied for people who can read between lines)


But you are just trolling now anyway...

Makkoto doesn't seem to think so. And still he disagrees with me.

[Malamasala]

Does adding 5 perpetuation make something like this complicated? No...
Does adding things like attack, haste, cure potency, and all that stuff make it complicated? Yeah...

It is about as complicated as Hasso. If SE could do it once, doing it again shouldn't be that hard. But if you want the more trivial suggestion, you always have the one about removing 25 of the 50% damage reduction avatars have. That would ruin avatar tanking during the ability, but that is again something that won't have a full time negative effect.


I'd really not want for this to turn into an argument between you two, thanks.

Don't worry, I've already proved him wrong twice so far. Now I'll just have to ignore him and he can have a one-way discussion where he thinks he wins due to no replies.

[MakkotoParinne]

Of course I don't think you're trolling! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I didn't intend to make my comment about the drawback seem directed at you and/or snooty, forgive me.

I'll politely disagree with you again, however. Avatars tend to tank while soloing, and reducing what meager defense they have (even with a flat 50%+ reduction) would be a little much, considering that most of the Summoners I know or have known are soloers. The last thing I want to do is reduce my protector's defense.

Also, a Hasso-like ability wouldn't really fit what Summoner normally does, which is consume/maintain MP. It just makes a little more sense to make the drawback go around that. Bringing Avatar's Favor into the matter though, it reduces an Avatar's physical/magical prowess, so I suppose it wouldn't be an impossibility to implement, just unnecessary in my opinion.

Please don't add fuel to the fire. It is, honestly, irritating to sift through pointless arguments to read through forum threads.

Edit: About the "being complicated" thing, I didn't mean to program, I meant that adding additional perpetuation would be easier to deal with in the long run instead of suffering from an instant stat decrease for the entire duration. It would be less complicated for perpetuation because unless you plan for it (or merit it), it hurts you over time (outside of Abyssea).

[Korpg]

Mala, what you are asking is wishful thinking. SE will not give SMNs a job ability that would allow then to have better stats than what an actual DD should get.

Plus, you have not proven me wrong at all, much less twice. You don't know anything about the concept of Enmity and the cap in place currently. Unless you have some really bad NIN tanks in your little group of yours and are able to take hate easy with your SMN (or DNC) that is. But even still, you don't know how easy it is to cap enmity. Even THFs can cap enmity at the last 10% of a mob's health, which I have seen happen many times (considering that the THF and I are the only ones meleeing on the mob, it sucks when the mob turns to the THF just before the THF uses SA). NINs can cap Enmity easy, and without tanking at all. When the enmity is capped, no amount of Innin will save them, and having the evasion down effect of Innin is very noticeable.

But seriously, why would you expect an Hasso-type effect for SMN? Are they melees? Are they hateless damage? Are they disposable pet jobs? You should have figure that out by yourself, but you want them to whack mobs with a staff!

Did you level SMN as a bad WHM or something?

[Covenant]

I also forgot to mention that I had an alternative take on spirits as well. I suggested multiple sipirts out(3max) for 3 times the mp costs. Summoner could summons an additonal spirit every 30 lvls.

[Dallas]

I'll politely disagree with you again, however.

No one is polite here. Knock it off!

[Malamasala]

I'll politely disagree with you again, however. Avatars tend to tank while soloing, and reducing what meager defense they have (even with a flat 50%+ reduction) would be a little much, considering that most of the Summoners I know or have known are soloers. The last thing I want to do is reduce my protector's defense.

You can disagree all you want, I always accept others to have different opinions. What I usually try and explain, is why their ideas aren't as good as they think. In this case higher perpetuation as the negative is just as bad, since it will hurt you while trying to get refresh effect while soloing to restore MP.

If you honestly want to favor soloing, I think you should try and think of some other negative effect. That is just my personal opinion from my experience of solo and reliance on MP to actually win. (I'm not that great at solo though, but I tend to feel that MP is a big deal even with 0 perp.)

[Tannlore]

Extra Perp is a fine and dandy solution to this conundrum and just in line with the spirit of the job (no pun intended). There are plenty of solutions in the game for smn to overcome the problem of high perp costs so this obstacle can be overcome. If SE were to ever implement something like this, you could probably bet your horn, it would involve massive perp costs.

[MakkotoParinne]

No one is polite here. Knock it off!


Mmmkay....

[MakkotoParinne]

You can disagree all you want, I always accept others to have different opinions. What I usually try and explain, is why their ideas aren't as good as they think. In this case higher perpetuation as the negative is just as bad, since it will hurt you while trying to get refresh effect while soloing to restore MP.

If you honestly want to favor soloing, I think you should try and think of some other negative effect. That is just my personal opinion from my experience of solo and reliance on MP to actually win. (I'm not that great at solo though, but I tend to feel that MP is a big deal even with 0 perp.)

It is, in my opinion, easier to deal with an extra 5 perp. than with less defense. I'm certain there's enough gear out there to maintain MP without a drawback as potentially dangerous as Damage Taken +25%. Besides, if MP becomes an issue, just Elemental Siphon and be done with it. Due to the drawback, it could make the ability situational. In those cases, abuse it, otherwise, find another way around.

And MP is a big deal, of course. If we run out, we're done.^^; Which is why this ability can be augmented through Spirit perp. cost merits if you can't handle the detriment adequately or if you just want some free help. Seems pretty fair to me.

[Malamasala]

Remind me again, is it 5 perp before or after merits? Because I doubt there is gear available to subtract an additional 10 MP drain compared to what we have now. But if you can get the extra cost down to zero through merits, then who am I to complain on your idea.

[MakkotoParinne]

It started as 10, but I changed the original post after a bit to 5 reduced to 0 through merits. That way, as I posted before, you just choose between Avatar with offensive merits or an Avatar + free Spirit assistant and only one other thing fully merited. :)

[Dallas]

Mmmkay....

I'm just here to help!

[MakkotoParinne]

Um.. Okay, right.

Why not just post your ideas about the ability? ;3

[Razushu]

Um.. Okay, right.

Why not just post your ideas about the ability? ;3

Because he's not actually here to help, all he wants is SMN to somehow magically be accepted as a melee, wherever a Top tier DD is used.

On topic:

I think a balance issue would arise when it came to merits unless they made this ability so weak, that using it with say Avatar acc + elemental -perp merits only gave the same efficency as full Avatar acc+atk merits would. Which it more than likely wouldn't if implemented would blow the latter combo out the window, which kind of removes the choice when it comes to merits, and that's sort of the point.

A non-MP cost to it would seem easier to balance, or maybe a gear solution to it, would do better. Something like a hidden effect on TotM +2 staves, that they negate the extra -perp from this ability, or a stat/HP drain to the master. Or they could change our merit 1 categories to 3 choices instead of 5. They give the same values as current merits, but choice 1 & 2 at 5/5 would be Avatar acc+15/atk +10, and Avatar MAB+10/Macc+15 respectively, or both accuracies on one and attack bonuses on another.

[MakkotoParinne]

Keep in mind that the ability could still be used while you have merits allocated elsewhere, for an additional 5 mp cost. Those offensive merits would affect the Spirit as well, you see, so the trade-off would be power to longevity. But, I do see your point. I guess I should fine-tune this.

I like the idea of combined merit categories, that would make things sooooo much easier! <3Potency and effectiveness<3 But I doubt they would give us that cookie on a silver platter anytime soon. :/


Edit: On a side note, I do not want this faux-ability-for-fun thread to turn into a Summoner melee war. Please keep that out of here, no one wants to read it. If they did, they would be in a Summoner melee thread somewhere. Thank you.

[Malamasala]

Which it more than likely wouldn't if implemented would blow the latter combo out the window, which kind of removes the choice when it comes to merits, and that's sort of the point.

The merit categories are just pretend choices anyway. It's been tested that the attack merits do nothing. The accuracy merits do nothing for BPs because you are already capped and it only helps DoT from avatar attacks. Macc has never managed to help either. MAB is the only choice. Where you want to waste your last 5 merits is optional. I wasted them in spirits just because that actually does something, even if it makes something useless cost less.

[MakkotoParinne]

To be honest, 10 attack isn't enough, and with capped skill/merits and other Summoning Magic skill gear makes your accuracy pretty high enough as it is. Magic Attack Bonus actually multiplies the damage, so that is a good choice.

For me, though, I merited 3 in attack (Avatar melee ftw), 2 in MaB, and the rest in Spirit cost. My reason? When I was doing my Evoker's Ring quest a while back, Leviathan managed to get a lucky 1.4k Tidal Wave off on poor Carbuncle. Let's just say Earth Spirit seemed pretty attractive with a one second cast time, but the cost to maintain! Ew. Quake, Assault, Stone IV. Dead Levi.

Also, I don't like losing MP on the off chance I don't Siphon before the tick. What is the cost of Spirits now, 19 a tick...? Am I the only one who Siphons at the last minute? lol

But, I ramble... I wouldn't call Spirit merits a waste, Mala! My damage looks exactly the same as other Summoners who are 5/5 Attack and MaB, so Spirit perp. is the only rational thing to do.

[Vortex]

To be honest, 10 attack isn't enough, and with capped skill/merits and other Summoning Magic skill gear makes your accuracy pretty high enough as it is. Magic Attack Bonus actually multiplies the damage, so that is a good choice.

For me, though, I merited 3 in attack (Avatar melee ftw), 2 in MaB, and the rest in Spirit cost. My reason? When I was doing my Evoker's Ring quest a while back, Leviathan managed to get a lucky 1.4k Tidal Wave off on poor Carbuncle. Let's just say Earth Spirit seemed pretty attractive with a one second cast time, but the cost to maintain! Ew. Quake, Assault, Stone IV. Dead Levi.

Also, I don't like losing MP on the off chance I don't Siphon before the tick. What is the cost of Spirits now, 19 a tick...? Am I the only one who Siphons at the last minute? lol

But, I ramble... I wouldn't call Spirit merits a waste, Mala! My damage looks exactly the same as other Summoners who are 5/5 Attack and MaB, so Spirit perp. is the only rational thing to do.

I have actually had times when i would summon a spirit, siphon and get "no effect" because the stupid thing despawned due to loss of MP right as i used the ability...most retarded thing i have ever seen, so i lose not only the timer but the mp that i needed, you can imagine the amount of rage that was ensured after that.. long story short i don't really understand why the cost for them is so high when they are uncontrolable and comepletelty useless outside of siphon.

The damage is pretty random when it comes to physcial attacks, neither attack nor mab will make a huige diffrence but they are definatly better choices then prep cost for spirits..if you are just going to waste the merits you may as well put them in accuracy.

[Malamasala]

But, I ramble... I wouldn't call Spirit merits a waste, Mala! My damage looks exactly the same as other Summoners who are 5/5 Attack and MaB, so Spirit perp. is the only rational thing to do.

Believe me, I just call them a waste to avoid arguments about "They are not superior to attack" all day. If I claim both attack and -perp on spirits are bad choices, less people will bother to argue.

[MakkotoParinne]

I have actually had times when i would summon a spirit, siphon and get "no effect" because the stupid thing despawned due to loss of MP right as i used the ability...most retarded thing i have ever seen, so i lose not only the timer but the mp that i needed, you can imagine the amount of rage that was ensured after that.. long story short i don't really understand why the cost for them is so high when they are uncontrolable and comepletelty useless outside of siphon.

The damage is pretty random when it comes to physcial attacks, neither attack nor mab will make a huige diffrence but they are definatly better choices then prep cost for spirits..if you are just going to waste the merits you may as well put them in accuracy.

My reason for the merits is for attempts to get away without losing enough MP to run out. Also, those merits would make your "No effect" scenario happen very much less, though I can't say that has happened to me.

The damage is indeed random, I often find myself outdamaging other Summoners with 70 BP:Rages and 75 BP:Rages even without full attack or MaB merits. And, as stated above, my accuracy is high enough as it is due to skill. The only thing I miss with is Predator Claws, very rarely, but isn't that programmed to miss occasionally...? I constantly do 1.7-1.9k damage with Rush. (Full TP return!)

But to each their own! :) I just think it's better utility, especially outside of Abyssea.

[MakkotoParinne]

Believe me, I just call them a waste to avoid arguments about "They are not superior to attack" all day. If I claim both attack and -perp on spirits are bad choices, less people will bother to argue.

I think everyone should have their own opinion depending on their playstyle. It's not like other players are the police.. every merit has its application. Though, the boost to Attack/MaB on Group1 could stand to be a little bit better. Oh well. I like my Spirit merits, lol. Never going to look at them the same after fighting Leviathan.^^;

[Vortex]

My reason for the merits is for attempts to get away without losing enough MP to run out. Also, those merits would make your "No effect" scenario happen very much less, though I can't say that has happened to me.

It is a very minor inconvinece and dosn't actually happen often. all i do is just wait till i have over 50 mp before trying it, it is still not worth meriting it for that, more attack is always better, even more accuracy can't hurt even if you don't need it. there is simply no reason to ever merit that.


The damage is indeed random, I often find myself outdamaging other Summoners with 70 BP:Rages and 75 BP:Rages even without full attack or MaB merits. And, as stated above, my accuracy is high enough as it is due to skill. The only thing I miss with is Predator Claws, very rarely, but isn't that programmed to miss occasionally...? I constantly do 1.7-1.9k damage with Rush. (Full TP return!)

I pretty much outdamage every smn i have met with constant 5k+ heavenly strikes inside abyssea, out side my pets vary based on what i fight,. i do not use "garuda only" fenrir is often a better choice due to his lower prep cost and better dot.
the rest are situational, Levi for high evasion mobs, ifrit for bomb mobs etc.
sure PC is most damaging but again it is still random,


But to each their own! :) I just think it's better utility, especially outside of Abyssea.

outside is actually where you really DO want more accuracy and attack, so it would actually be hurting you to merit it for outside use. in other words you are suggesting to merit something that will only get a use for a single JA that you only use when you need the MP, it's like meriting divine magic skill for PLD so your holy dosn't get resisted.

[MakkotoParinne]

Actually, I only stated my opinion. If you think adding maybe, 50 damage per pact or 10 damage per swing is the most effective thing in the world, by all means. I understand my choice is unorthodox at best, but it hasn't hurt me any. I can usually Siphon at about 30-20 MP left.

I hate it when Summoners only use Garuda, ew. Also, I think the thread is going a little off track.^^; Thanks for your input, though! If you'd like to discuss merits and their relevance, please feel free to create your own thread for it. :)

[Malamasala]

it's like meriting divine magic skill for PLD so your holy dosn't get resisted.

On the other hand, what other magic merits would you put on PLD? Healing magic? Enfeebling magic?

[Airget]

Perhaps what could work is a sort of "infusion" between the spirit pact and the avatar to improve it's potency in battle.

So basically you could have

"Infusion"
-Summon the avatar and it's elemental spirit into one entity to improve it's abilities"
Recast:5 mins
Duation:2hrs

"While under the effect the avatar gains the perp cost of the elemental as well as it's own (but duration can be reduced through the -Elemental BP cost- merit.)"

Basically I think this would encourage people to get the spirit pacts and it would actually make sense for a Summoner of a higher level to have the ability to infuse their avatar with a spirit in order to improve their overall power in battle. It would definitely be better then just having spirit pacts be segregated as a quick mp regain lol.

[Covenant]

Personally, I think a bloodwards that gives a particular avatar a Enspell 2 and spike 2. Either separate or together would be cool especially if it's AoE party.

The spirit idea is meh. I like my own multi-spirit idea much better.

[Malamasala]

Adding a spirits favor would also be a way to enhance the usage of spirits. Though it would have to either improve the AI for nuking or be better than avatar's favors for anyone to use them.

[Vangoh]

I like the idea but without the penalties plzzzz...that way we could do avatar siphon without releasing avatar and calling a spirit. ^^

[Dann]

Avatar's Essence
Job Ability: Summoner level 75
Duration: until Avatar is desummoned or icon is removed manually
Recast: 1 minute

Summons an elemental spirit of your avatar's element to assist.

So, like two pets at once without being able to control it the same way. Think about it like an adventuring fellow. The spirit would be summoned and share hate with the avatar, casting its random spells and meleeing the same target.
This stance would add 5 perpetuation cost, which may be reduced to 0 with merits into elemental perpetuation cost. Elemental Siphon may also be used, but only at 3/4 power.

This way, you can add some DoT, enjoy your spirits (to all us spirit junkies out there), use Elemental Siphon in a situation where it would be inappropriate to desummon, what have you.

The thought just occured to me, and I thought it would give reason to have elemental perpetuation merits in the first place, along with mimicking the Avatar fights for Waking the Beast, where the Avatars have Elementals to assist them.

Tell me what you think!

Are you Psychic? This is pretty much the exact idea that popped into my head last night and I was gonna start a thread on it lol. Only point to add is that obviously one should need to have learned the particular spirit pact before the ability can be used, but thats sort of a given lol