Beastmaster's MOST pressing matter

[Granny]

The very life and death of our job is at hand. No matter how many times its been mentioned, it needs to be once more, and kept in the spot light and top of our request priorities!

Beastmasters need up coming content to involve the acutal job itself, which is the ability to charm monsters. So lets remind SE again, and how many ever times it takes that beastmasters need new high level pets, not just pets but pets IN areas which there is a use for them, AND said use to actually be not worthless meaning we want to use charmed pets in most if not all the new content to come, and for things like voidwatch.

No matter how it is spun, twisted and turned, warped or altered, half decent jug pets are not a solid viable alternative or replacement for charmed pets and is nothing more than it has always been, a expensive, usualy quick to die, weak emergency replacment for a charmed pet.

If the beastmaster community's requests are not met on this issue, the "real" joy of playing the job itself will be lost forever.

Now is the time for bst's to band together full force on this issue when it counts the most, because now is the time window of posibility for the future of bst to be made right.

[Caketime]

Bro, not to sound negative or anything but you're really blowing this out of proportion. Charming stuff to level was awesome, but I'd rather not hinge success or failure on whether or not my Charm fizzles because it's Darksday and the Random Number God feels like being an extra large jerk. It gets old quickly. I also enjoy the fact that I have some more control over how pets behave, even with the derp Ready system. Back in the day leveling was a constant gamble even with a full charm set, since the charmed pets like to spam area attacks which turned Sic into the "We very well may die" button.

Not being forced to carry around Charm gear is great because it allows us to stack more Reward effect gear. Times are changing, let's do the unexpected and adapt rather than bitch about a flying heart that can and will indirectly murder you just because.

[Calamity]

Idk. I agree with parts of what both of you have said. In the end I think me real feelings on it are that I don't like that one of the big job functions we have has more or less been disabled. Not just made less useful like some other jobs have seen, but completely disabled. I don't think it's the end all must have ability to save the job, however, I do believe it's a very nice option to have available. Just my thoughts.

[Caketime]

I was just being Snarky, Charm's useful and all but with the way the devs have designed the content that we've been using for the last year+ it's just got no niche use like it did before. The devs will probably do something with it so we can make use of it, being one of our defining job abilities. Probably not in full capacity as a tool for Charming monsters to fight for us, but maybe a stronger Bind effect or an added effect that turns any monster we target with Charm into a Unicorn. Then again they could also do nothing and we'll deal with it or play something else.

[Fretion]

I've been disappointed with the lack of charmable monsters in new / high level areas forever. Sky, only flamingos ... nothing at all INSIDE the palace. Sea ... nothing at all. Abyssea, mobs that in the normal areas could be charmed, nope, can't do it. Even ToAU was really short on viable solo/duo pet camps @ 75. The Soulflayer camp really needed @ least 4 Beastmasters to work, as the crabs were pretty weak compared to the flayers.

Additionally, monsters that SHOULD be charmable, non-beastmen types, can't ... giant birds, bugards, wivres, etc.

I have been pleased that the developers DID give us charmable mobs in the Grounds of Valor areas for the most part.

I have always preferred wild pets over jugs. I will grant that the over 76 jugs are finally actually worthwhile, but I really, really don't like being dependent on jugs, and call beast timer. I prefer to keep jugs for emergencies, and would very much like to see more useful pets near battle camps.

[Olor]

Yeah, it would be nice if being a bst at cap didn't mean constantly bleeding gil.

[Areola]

I myself prefer jugs over charming mobs. It just fits my play style better. Plus mis-charming, charming, and re-charming isn't exactly what I would call fun <_<.
With only 60ish cooking skill you can make a good majority of the decent jugs and food, and the materials are very easy to farm. apart form Eta biscuits and razor brain broth there isn't much else a bst would need that lv60 cooking couldn't make(until the update at least)

[Calamity]

I just like having the option. Would be a nice panic button for when you unexpectedly get caught with CB timer down.

[SpankWustler]

I'm really happy that jug pets finally have the needed stats and mechanics to be useful. I actually don't feel that Beast Master has lost much in the move, particularly given what it's gained.

Still, I'd really like for Charm to be something other than a vestigial remnant of what the job did a year ago. If that means making Charm bind for 0.5-1 second more reliably, adding a sleep effect to Tame, and allowing both to be used to those effects while a jug pet is out; that's all right with me.

It just rubs me the wrong way that such a huge element of the job is now often used for nothing rather than being re-purposed.

[Sparthos]

Problem with Charm is it just isn't practical in areas where no native monsters are available and that winds up being huge parts of XI. The original concept of charm -> pethurling has shrunk when familiars are more than capable enough to handle a variety of monsters in solo combat.

Besides, wasn't the old complaint that "someone stole my NM while I was looking for another pet!". The golden days of Charm weren't as amazing as some would lead you to believe.

One suggestion could be to retool the Charm ability to call a random pet to your side. The deus ex Automata of BST as it were. Instead of having to find monsters to charm, the new charm would simply pick from a pool of monsters and allow you to have a pet without dipping into your Call Beast jugpets.

There you have it, Charm would be back and actually viable in every zone. Toss in a standard SE chance of failure based on a CHR check and the ability would still be stronger than it was before.

Call Beast would still have a purpose in giving you the exact pet you need for the situation and those "charmed" pets wouldn't get the boons of Ready or Snarl meaning jugpets would still have their place.

This could also help a partying/alliance BST by having a throwaway pet to use in the event that your main monster has been killed off by an NM or something.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

The very life and death of our job is at hand. No matter how many times its been mentioned, it needs to be once more, and kept in the spot light and top of our request priorities!

Beastmasters need up coming content to involve the acutal job itself, which is the ability to charm monsters. So lets remind SE again, and how many ever times it takes that beastmasters need new high level pets, not just pets but pets IN areas which there is a use for them, AND said use to actually be not worthless meaning we want to use charmed pets in most if not all the new content to come, and for things like voidwatch.

No matter how it is spun, twisted and turned, warped or altered, half decent jug pets are not a solid viable alternative or replacement for charmed pets and is nothing more than it has always been, a expensive, usualy quick to die, weak emergency replacment for a charmed pet.

If the beastmaster community's requests are not met on this issue, the "real" joy of playing the job itself will be lost forever.

Now is the time for bst's to band together full force on this issue when it counts the most, because now is the time window of posibility for the future of bst to be made right.Charm was never more then a niche for people who can't figure out how to play with other people. Beast dose not need more charm crap, it needs more pet oriented abilities and gear that dose something for pets unlike empyrean.

[Granny]

lol... you really hit that mark there... lol...
So are you saying you've always played bst without charm, and avoided it like the plague then? I assume you never leeched bst up in abyssea then, and you leveled it back in the day, and you were one of those bst's who couldn't solo so they party'd their way to 75?

YES! Give bst more pet buffs but no charmed pets to use them on... lol you should be a comedian.

[Zaknafein]

I made the switch to jug pets pretty much full time when I got snarl. Haven't looked back since. That ability, and the option to tell your pet what WS to use is much better than hitting sic, and crossing your fingers. No surprise AOE's that way either.

[Caketime]

Charm was never more then a niche for people who can't figure out how to play with other people.

So you're saying an ability that was with our job from the very beginning was only implemented because the developers foresaw people not getting groups? Either I'm completely misunderstanding, or you need to lay off the paint.

[Lordscyon]

They should make an ability like rangers recyle too bst
when using a jug it might not be deplete ^^ sAVE $

[Granny]

SE needs to address and acknowledge the issue of bst's design and charm already.

[xbobx]

Beastmaster is not the job it once was, adn people have to just deal with it. Having mobs in Abyessa charmable would be the dumbest thing SE would have ever done. It would destroy abyessa. With all the high level mobs right close to all the high level nms, a Group of bsts could destroy everything and abyessa nms would be a cake walk. REally think about it before you come up with ideas.

If that happened, abyessa would be 90% bsts walking around, bad enough as it is with mnk and whm soloing so much, but charmable mobs in abyessa would completely destroy it. People need to stop acting like spoiled little brats in this game and want game breaking JA's traits etc, fix the real issues, stop making more.

[Caketime]

Beastmaster is not the job it once was, adn people have to just deal with it. Having mobs in Abyessa charmable would be the dumbest thing SE would have ever done. It would destroy abyessa. With all the high level mobs right close to all the high level nms, a Group of bsts could destroy everything and abyessa nms would be a cake walk. REally think about it before you come up with ideas.

If that happened, abyessa would be 90% bsts walking around, bad enough as it is with mnk and whm soloing so much, but charmable mobs in abyessa would completely destroy it. People need to stop acting like spoiled little brats in this game and want game breaking JA's traits etc, fix the real issues, stop making more.


Amazing Foresight you have there. The only problem is, fixing the real issues would require SE to do some actual work on each job instead of random "adjustments" and minor tweaks that we keep seeing. There hasn't been a radical gameplay change to any job since they decided to make shielding not terrible, and even then it was a minor thing that didn't actually fix any problems, it just made shields somewhat better than garbage.

Now, what we're facing is thus: SE wants us to be group friendly, but until very recently none of our abilities meshed well with group play, and there's no indicator of that happening any time soon. On the test server we have our new "Spend Gil Faster" Ability and some neat jugs but nothing in our skillset warrants a PT slot aside from being personal friends with the PT leader, it's the same old song and dance from the devs. "We want you to play in groups, but we don't want to give you group related abilities or adjust your current ones to mesh better with group play. In fact, we will give you exclusively solo oriented abilities and then add a few neat toys here and there but will never actually resolve the issue at hand. Also, you will never get a better WS. NEVER. Mwahahahaha!!"

[Gotterdammerung]

Personally, i understand the need for the charm atrophy. I firmly believe that if every zone was well stocked with charmable pets, then bstmaster would be unstoppable.

But i also miss the skill terribly. People point back to mischarms, but mischarms were not that common for me. Maybe it was because i spent lots of gil on a perfect charm set. Maybe it was because i payed attention to the challenge rating of the area. Maybe it was because i controlled my camp. But for watever reasons, i never had problems with mischarm. I did run into mischarms occasionally, but they were never a big deal. We had sooo many tools too regain control after a mischarm, and i often found that to be the most fun part. Ive been thru most of what this game has to offer, and still nothing beats mischarming a linking mob standing next to 5 of his friends and coming out of it alive. Maybe i like it because it was an era when it took skill to play bst. Maybe im just a glutton for punishment. Who knows.

I also can say, I have never lost a NM during a pet swap, and im not exactly sure how this happens to people, but that in itself is not a problem with charm, it is a problem with the system and call beast jugs have a similar problem. The flaw needs to be fixed, not blamed on any 1 skill.

I understand that charm will probably never return. But i still don't enjoy lesser skilled beasts coming in after the fact and badmouthing charm just because they weren't good enough to handle pre abyssea bst.

[Calamity]

Personally, i understand the need for the charm atrophy. I firmly believe that if every zone was well stocked with charmable pets, then bstmaster would be unstoppable.

But i also miss the skill terribly. People point back to mischarms, but mischarms were not that common for me. Maybe it was because i spent lots of gil on a perfect charm set. Maybe it was because i payed attention to the challenge rating of the area. Maybe it was because i controlled my camp. But for watever reasons, i never had problems with mischarm. I did run into mischarms occasionally, but they were never a big deal. We had sooo many tools too regain control after a mischarm, and i often found that to be the most fun part. Ive been thru most of what this game has to offer, and still nothing beats mischarming a linking mob standing next to 5 of his friends and coming out of it alive. Maybe i like it because it was an era when it took skill to play bst. Maybe im just a glutton for punishment. Who knows.

I also can say, I have never lost a NM during a pet swap, and im not exactly sure how this happens to people, but that in itself is not a problem with charm, it is a problem with the system and call beast jugs have a similar problem. The flaw needs to be fixed, not blamed on any 1 skill.

I understand that charm will probably never return. But i still don't enjoy lesser skilled beasts coming in after the fact and badmouthing charm just because they weren't good enough to handle pre abyssea bst.

^ This. Well said.

[xiozen]

I myself prefer jugs over charming mobs. It just fits my play style better. Plus mis-charming, charming, and re-charming isn't exactly what I would call fun <_<.
With only 60ish cooking skill you can make a good majority of the decent jugs and food, and the materials are very easy to farm. apart form Eta biscuits and razor brain broth there isn't much else a bst would need that lv60 cooking couldn't make(until the update at least)

I completely agree with this statement and I wish more folks would adopt a similar word usage in expressing how they play the game... so many times over and over you see folks "telling others that they're doing it wrong..." that there's pretty much one play style in the game and if you're not adopting to it.. then it's wrong...

The OP wants to be able to charm again... in more higher-region areas... if that's his/her desire, then so be it... for me, personally, I enjoy jug pets and don't miss being able to charm or (mis-charm) in areas for the purpose of using my job. However, SE "may" add charmable mobs in additional zones, just because some folks "want" to do it over purchasing jug pets.

[Endoq]

i would like to see mobs be charmable in all "battle field status". for example, voidwatch and field manual NMs, where all other mobs become unattackable/uncharmable and not only that but this also despawns a jug pet if you already have one. if im doing multiple runs with a few people this would mean i have to waste a jug each fight even though my jugs timer has litteraly hours left on it sometimes, so i end up wasting tons of jugs. this system is really messed up for soloing as i cannot let my call beast timer cool down before spawning an NM that will prolly use multiple pets to kill, also its dangerous/stupid to spawn an NM with no pet out.

[Calamity]

I don't really see why there's so much debate on this topic. Fact is, the option of charming should exist. Period. It should be up to the player whether or not they choose to use it or not. I get that the majority of bsts out there prefer to rely on jugs only and that's fine. But there are bsts out there that prefer access to more advanced tactics, and I believe they should be given that freedom. It may just be my opinion, but I really see zero reason why anyone should be speaking against the reinstatement of charm.

[Feynman]

My BST is now at level 80 and I level it outside of abyssea. I personally don't like the leech party idea at all. I'm not really concerned about how many high level jobs I have, just in enjoying the game. When I'm out leveling it's because that's what I find fun at the moment. Same with questing, missions, crafting, etc.

When you are leveling off EM, T, or VT mobs jug pets just don't cut it. Even the 76+ ones which are admittedly better than the previous ones. The mobs still tear through your pets way too fast so you're left with the option of throwing tons of food at it or just keeping it alive until until Call Beast is recharged. What I like about BST is that almost regardless of my HP/MP or statuses I can keep exp coming in. Let my pet take care of it for awhile and I'll go rest.

I do love the increased control with jug pets. Snarl and Ready really can be life savers. But that's the thing right? You can charm and have a much more durable pets for a more reliable exp flow without throwing tons of gil at it. Or you can use a weaker jug pet for greater control.

For a soloist who lvls outside of abyssea, charm is the way to go. If you lvl in abyssea, thus likely in parties, then of course you use jug pets. If I'm in a party I always use jugs. My pet likely isn't going to be tanking and newer jug pets do nice damage. But after lvling in abyssea, you come into the "regular" areas and need to skill up so you go to EP, or DC mobs and jug pets are sufficient. I chose to lvl BST because of its solo capabilities and reputation. I'm a grad student and my schedule is often too hectic to allow too much time to play. So I chose a solo job. The lack of charmable mobs is a major issue for people charming pets to fight enemies at or above their level.

And as for sic, one of the most important things about BST soloing is to find a decent camp. If you are charming rabbits and standing in the middle of mob-filled field and use Sic....you're asking for it. Pull the mob away from others. Find a safe spot to fight. If the rabbit uses Whirl Claws it can hit your target but otherwise nothing but air.

And the mischarms? Yeah it can be annoying when it happens but that's part of the fun to me! Makes you be resourceful. Teaches you that Tame also makes an angry monster stop attacking, forces you to find creative ways to come out of a tough situation alive. Or can lead to some spectacular deaths! Good times in my opinion! Part of it is knowing your potential pet though. Tigers, slimes, opo-opo, etc are probably not good choices if your CHR is low or you need a reliable life saver. Learn the mobs and use them to your advantage!

[Granny]

Ya it's sad, most bst now basicly have no concept of the job itself if they never solo'd/duo'd it up. There is a reason before abyssea it was so frowned upon seeing a bst lvling in a party, its because it does take skill and practice to be able to solo hard things on bst a juggle all the variables going on at once and a partied or leeched up bst just doesnt have a clue.

If only bst had a dedicated fan base like rdm, this issue would be getting feedback by now. lol I guess Cure5 is a more important topic than a whole jobs' primary function being neglected.

[Zhronne]

The very life and death of our job is at hand. No matter how many times its been mentioned, it needs to be once more, and kept in the spot light and top of our request priorities!
I think maybe you are making things worse than they are. Jug Pets nowadays are much better than they used to be at 75 when everybody was using Courier Carrie.

Still, I concur that it's a shame that Charm has got no love over the last 3 years and the BST job slowly steered from Charm to Call Beast.
Charm used to be the CORE mechanic of the BST job and Call Beast used to be the ALTERNATIVE to use when you were in a mess or when Charm wasn't possible.
Now things kinda shifted toward a new direction, Call Beast seem to be the main thing, getting cool pets and specific JAs (ready, snarl etc) while Charm is... just useless. Tell me the last time you used Charm.
This also affects our 2hr since Familiar isn't that great on pets you get through Call Beast.
It also destroyed the necessity to stack CHR and INT gear for charm and Tame, altough that might be a pro for inventory+, since you never can get enough inventory (I for once know that my BST really took a lot of space back when I had DD setups, WS setups, /WHM setups, Charm setups, Tame setups, etc etc etc)

I'd really love for SE to let some light shine again on Charm.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

And what would you ever charm and why? There's nothing in any end game that you can use charm for anything other then hate/pulling.

[Zhronne]

That's what "let some light shine on Charm" means.
What you described is the current situation and the reason why: 1) Charm became useless, 2) More useful and powerful jug pets got released, to compensate the fact that charm started sucking (and releasing new pets was a much easier/quicker way for them to "fix BST" compared to the amount of work they'd probably have to do to "fix" Charm)

[Gotterdammerung]

And what would you ever charm and why? There's nothing in any end game that you can use charm for anything other then hate/pulling.

The whole thread is about SE putting charmables into endgame. They are asking SE to stop this choice they have been making of slowly weaning off charm.


Your basically coming back at them with "charm shouldn't be made useful again because as you can see its useless right now." ...
But come to think of it, that is the level of argument i have come to expect from you. Shame on me for being surprised.

[Caesaris]

I'm a 7yr BST... BST was my first 75, and I spent most of my HNMLS life as BST main.

I spent hours, and hours, and millions of gil putting a Charm set together. Back in the days of our pet Linkshells, every BST prided himself on having a great Charm set. Being able to solo Ancient Goobbue without a mischarm was like a badge of honor. When we took Tiamat down with Antlions and Fly's, we felt a sense of accomplishment that I haven't felt in years on this game.

The Jug pets are cool, I like that they can actually hold their own now, as opposed to just being a kamikaze pet attack to buy me some time to find a charmed pet. But the first ability BST was given was Charm!! How the F%#* can SE completely render our main job ability useless all of a sudden? You BST's that seem so willing to trade your main job ability for a few roided up jug pets didn't have to fight with SAM's, MNK's and NIN's for your Osode years ago, you didn't buy your Apollo's staff when it cost damn near a million gil... you didn't have to level your BST 1-75 in a pre aht urgan Vanadiel when NO one wanted a BST in their party. Your charm set isn't near and dear to your heart (if you even still have one). My only reason for getting my BST AF+1 hands, feet and legs was for my charm set.

What other job in this game has had their main jobs ability rendered useless? You can't name one, because we're the only one. Whm's can still cure, a rdm can still enfeeble, blm's can still nuke... all the DD's still have use for their main abilities.

I'm an old school BST... I have a Phd in hate management and release/recharm tactics. Me and my old BST buddy, Silverwedge, took pics of our BST's in East Altepa Desert like 6 years ago when we first got Leave... that's how proud we were. Charm and Leave made BST what it was. Lol, i still have that pic of us Leaving our beetles together, haha. I applaud SE for finally revamping BST with the new more powerful jug pets... but to completely abandon our main job abilities for the simplicity of using a suped up jug pet isn't a fair trade for us old school BST's.

[Zhronne]

Maybe the words you used are a bit too strong Caesaris, but I share your feelings wholeheartedly :)

[Caketime]

And what would you ever charm and why? There's nothing in any end game that you can use charm for anything other then hate/pulling.

Because endgame is the only aspect of the game as a whole that matters in any way. Also, by your statement it's pretty clear that you have no idea what you're talking about in regards to said aspect of the game as it only really applies to endgame content in its current, updated form. I think it's funny that you make lame trollposts in an attempt to dismiss another poster's legitimate contribution to a thread and yet you have no idea what you're even talking about in the first place.

[Calamity]

And what would you ever charm and why? There's nothing in any end game that you can use charm for anything other then hate/pulling.

It's like I said before. Charm should exist. Period. If you wanna deem it useless then by all means, don't use it. Continue to play "Beastmaster easy mode". Fact is, you don't lose a single thing by charm coming back. So I really fail to see why you would be against it.

[Dethard]

I levelled my BST to 75 pre abyssea using charmed pets, duoing most of the way with another BST. It was enjoyable for the most part even with quite a few deaths due to mischarms and uncharming at wrong time, but I now prefer the stronger jug pets, at least I know what I am getting and what move it will use.

I don't mind if they bring back charming for end game or leave us with jug pets, but I wish they would make up their minds which way they are going. If we are not going to be able to charm again then give us something to replace it and make the CHR stat we have on most of our gear benefit us in some way.

I just think it is silly to leave us with an ability that has no use and equipment with stats that do nothing for the job.

[Granny]

I totaly agree with you Caesaris.

Another thing that really pisses me off about the whole charming thing is back at 75 cap when charm was useful for more things than just the odd magian trial which is all I use it for now. I would go rdm nin blu brd and sub bst and have a fun time doing stuff solo and with friends so I feel like I've been robed of not just playing one job but many ><

Tsukino_Kaji must think of himself as a genius in his own mind LOL.

[Agetos]

let's do the unexpected and adapt rather than bitch about a flying heart that can and will indirectly murder you just because.

I think we should all count this man as one of the greater minds of our time.

But also charm is a great tool but you can't expect to be given mobs to use it on wherever you are, new content means new rules, adapt or die. the new jugs can beat nearly any mob you could ever charm. its nice to use in old content because wtf would you need to bring out hobbs for some easy killin. but the stakes are different and require new strategies.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

when charm was useful for more things than just the odd magian trial which is all I use it for now.You realy wasted time charming things for trial fights when any of the new jug pets easily do double the damage?

[Xilk]

You realy wasted time charming things for trial fights when any of the new jug pets easily do double the damage?

If you have a charmed mob w/ same level as jug pet, then you are NOT doing double damage on a jug pet. Nowhere close. there are plenty of charmed mobs (0~2 levels below us) that will out DD any of our jugs ie a level 95 scorpion would do it. And if you familiar and IT, the contrast is that much more stark.

Please stop trolling the bst forums.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I like how you have to resort to using the term "troll" to make yourself seem more valid. Next you'll be spouting "QQ" because you can't form a constructive reponce. If being the opposition makes some one a "troll" as you like to say. Then this forum, yourself included, are all guilty of this. Why is it wrong of someone to voice their opinion against the subject at hand? Is it realy that damaging to your claims?

On topic:
So you're saying that you're going out of your way to find the hardest mobs possible, therefor taking much longer then you ever should have, just so you can charm something? Where instead you could have simply used a jug pet, that yes, still dose considerably more damamge.
I still stand by the uselessness of charm today, there's no reason for it's use anymore. Name an endgame you can use it validly in? And yes I understand that endgame is not everything there is to the game, but when you talk about the viability of something now, you're not referring to solo XP or some random NM in some god forsaken corner of some forgotten and irrelevant area. That you could have just easily eliminated with a jug pet in half the time.

[Caketime]

You're no Troll, Trolls are humorous. You're just a kid with a poor attitude and a yearning to argue.

My favorite part of your post is where you assume that everyone plays the game exactly the way you do, and that when we're referring to anything ingame it must be about the latest endgame content when that's not necessarily the case at all. The game can still be played at various level ranges due to level sync and if you have a shell like mine, there's no shortage of new faces to meet and go do fun stuff with of all levels. Just because YOU don't participate in anything other than the newest fad does not mean we're all the same.

E: Magian Trials are rad as /BST. Just saying.

[Feynman]

I still stand by the uselessness of charm today, there's no reason for it's use anymore. Name an endgame you can use it validly in?

I think you misunderstand the original intent of this thread. We are not saying that charm is incredibly useful and people need to use it more. We are saying that what was long the defining job ability of the BST job is losing its usefulness by SE's recent decisions. We want charm to still useful, to still be a viable option, instead of losing an ability that was a source of much of the fun of BST. We're upset that it isn't as useful as it should be.

[Gotterdammerung]

I think you misunderstand the original intent of this thread. We are not saying that charm is incredibly useful and people need to use it more. We are saying that what was long the defining job ability of the BST job is losing its usefulness by SE's recent decisions. We want charm to still useful, to still be a viable option, instead of losing an ability that was a source of much of the fun of BST. We're upset that it isn't as useful as it should be.

You are throwing pearls man.

Tsu is immune to logic based attacks. In fact, probably absorbs them.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

My favorite part of your post is where you assume that everyone plays the game exactly the way you do, and that when we're referring to anything ingame it must be about the latest endgame content when that's not necessarily the case at all. The game can still be played at various level ranges due to level sync and if you have a shell like mine, there's no shortage of new faces to meet and go do fun stuff with of all levels. Just because YOU don't participate in anything other than the newest fad does not mean we're all the same.I like how start with something I never claimed and end with an unfounded assumtion about a person you know nothing about. Then continue with backing your entire argument with XP parties which is not content. As for the /bst for trials, it can be incredibly useful, but this is the bst forum, not the /bst forum. A sub bst only has charm as an option, so that is an entirely different an invalid point.
I think you misunderstand the original intent of this thread. We are not saying that charm is incredibly useful and people need to use it more. We are saying that what was long the defining job ability of the BST job is losing its usefulness by SE's recent decisions. We want charm to still useful, to still be a viable option, instead of losing an ability that was a source of much of the fun of BST. We're upset that it isn't as useful as it should be.I didn't miss any point, I voiced the opposition. You can go out and charm as much as you want on bst, but it still doesn't have a place anymore other then random non-abyssea XP in some dank hole. All of you so easily dismiss my claims as nothing, but don't even try to show where charm would be viable in any of the game's content. All you're saing is "I want thint this" without even concidering why. The game has changed and there's no real point in this JA anymore other then screwing around on things that don't matter. Your mistaking nostalgia with necessity. Nostolgia from a time when bst was forced into a roll that it didn't even have to be by people who couldn't understand the job in the first place.

[Gotterdammerung]

ok, you asked for examples.

Nyzul isle, If we were allowed to charm in nyzul isle it would be incredibly useful.

Voidwatch, If zones were stocked with pets and we were allowed to charm them in voidwatch fights it would be very useful.

theres 2 examples. (i got bored)

Point is, if SE stocked these endgame areas with appropriate lvl charmables they would be useful in all endgame events. Every single last one of them.

Also, i dont know what rolls you were forced into. I was never forced into any. I had some pressure from narrowminded troll parrots, who didnt like my job, but i managed just fine to prove my worth in all my events.

Seems like your waiting for the day where bst becomes the definative DD in everyones eyes. Well i don't care about trivial crap like that. And if gits like you end up turning my job into a simple minded straight forward uber DD, first ima fall asleep from boredom, and then im gonna wake up and rage. Bst is a cool job that is multi functional , self supported, well balanced, challenging and fun. It isnt broken, it doesnt "need" steroids. And it definately doesnt need to lose all its unique power in some misguided quest for DD godhood. If you want that ... go play warrior and quit trolling here.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Nyzul is a poor example. A terrible, grasping at straws one for that matter. If you could charm mobs in there it would completely off balance then entire structure in bst's favor. It would turn into 1 job zone. Bst or GTFO and SE actualy is trying to maintain something resembling balance. As for the VWNMs, if there's charmable mobs around the pops, it would cause more problems for the parties then any possible benefits.
Neitehr of these things are good examples. All this will do is add endless changes and pointless ones at that just for a single ability of a single job that the smallest minority is desperately clinging to because they refuse to change with the times. The rest of your post is more pointless assuming ending with the word troll just to make just to yourself look more valid. Is a counterpoint realy that damamging to what you think bst should be?

[Granny]

You realy wasted time charming things for trial fights when any of the new jug pets easily do double the damage?

Yes, because Rdm/bst really can use "any of the new jug pets which easily do double the damage." lol.
Also not sure what planet your on but last time I checked EM+ wild mobs have always been stronger than jug pets, but maybe I'm just too into detials >.> lol

[Gotterdammerung]

Nyzul is a poor example. A terrible, grasping at straws one for that matter. If you could charm mobs in there it would completely off balance then entire structure in bst's favor. It would turn into 1 job zone. Bst or GTFO and SE actualy is trying to maintain something resembling balance. As for the VWNMs, if there's charmable mobs around the pops, it would cause more problems for the parties then any possible benefits.
Neitehr of these things are good examples. All this will do is add endless changes and pointless ones at that just for a single ability of a single job that the smallest minority is desperately clinging to because they refuse to change with the times. The rest of your post is more pointless assuming ending with the word troll just to make just to yourself look more valid. Is a counterpoint realy that damamging to what you think bst should be?

i feel like i am taking crazy pills.

First u try to say "why would anyone even want to be able to charm?! its worthless in endgame!"
Then i give u 2 specific examples of where its not worthless.... as well as state that it would be worthwhile in ALL endgame events... and you say there bad examples.

And wats more you say there bad examples because charm would be really strong and unbalanced. But u just said.. a christ nevermind.


Also 'charmable mobs near the NM would create a problem for other people' totally not true. We are talking abuot formats here. SE decided to make this event a bcnm style status fight. And put a short out of bounds imaginary line on the battle field. This was an AWEFUL choice for charm. The point of this threwad is they didnt HAVE TO choose to do it that way. The people in this thread are asking SE to stop it with the anti charm endgame designs. These NMs could of been ??? spawned just like normal NMs.

And since when are "single jobs single skills" not important? Do you think THFs would be just happy as ever if SE started designing endgame content where they couldnt SATA? What about monks who couldnt counter? Warriors who got there JA buffs dispelled or stolen as soon as they were used?

Stop trying to downplay the loss of a skill. It is a big deal.

I didn't call you a troll to validate my point.

My point is valid because i observed the situation and weighed in all angles with an unbiased viewpoint b4 coming to a conclusion.
It also helps that i combine clear concise points with decent grammar, to make my valid points.

I called you a troll because you ARE a troll. It was an addendum. In addition to my point.

No one cares that you disagree with them.
Its the way you disagree with them. Berating and belittling them. Not even trying to see their side. Thats what makes you a troll.

And b4 you say "but u belittled me so that makes you a troll" let me explain.. i fight troll with troll u mad?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Then i give u 2 specific examples of where its not worthless.... as well as state that it would be worthwhile in ALL endgame events... and you say there bad examples.You gave 2 examples that had nothing to do with charm. You're examples would instead change the fundamentals of the game or change whole zone placements just to accomidate your wants of one job.

[Xilk]

You are throwing pearls man.

Tsu is immune to logic based attacks. In fact, probably absorbs them.

I just thought you needed a reminder Gotterdammerung. There is a reason I don't engage Tsu.. since about 2 weeks after these forums launched.

I understand you were bored, but remember, it is just a futile effort.
Thank you for making a good point though. Its the entire dynamic of gameplay that is missing since charm has been killed off. It would be like obfuscating the ja's of WAR or MNK or DNC right out from under them.

"okay, In this content we are not going to let dancer's use steps anymore...." Is a fair comparison.

Losing charm also caused us to lose Familiar. +10% max hp isn't a bad thing... but really, compared to an IT pet for 30 min, there's a HUGE difference.

[Calamity]

Yeah. I for one respect what you say Gotter, but it's time you followed your own advice. Tsu will always have the last word. I absolutely promise you he will never let it be otherwise. And time and time again, Tsu is gonna prove me right. It's time to just ignore him. At no point will it ever matter how valid or logical your point is, he will tear it down with a smile and repeat the exact same thing he's said in nearly every post. There comes a point when a person crosses the line from stating an opinion to looking for a fight. I believe that line has been crossed.

The point in this thread was to bring this issue to the attention of SE. Rest happy knowing that his opinions, while designed to aggravate other players, will carry absolutely 0 weight when it comes time for SE to make a decision on the subject. Thank you. That is all.

[Feynman]

I didn't miss any point, I voiced the opposition. You can go out and charm as much as you want on bst, but it still doesn't have a place anymore other then random non-abyssea XP in some dank hole.

This is the point I think you are missing. We agree that charm doesn't have a place in abyssea or other new content. We are asking why this new content was designed in such as way that our basic ability was totally negated.


All of you so easily dismiss my claims as nothing, but don't even try to show where charm would be viable in any of the game's content. All you're saing is "I want thint this" without even concidering why. The game has changed and there's no real point in this JA anymore other then screwing around on things that don't matter.

I never dismissed your claims. In fact I agree; charm has no place in most of the new content. The point is that we believe that it should! The new content should not have been designed so that one particular job cannot use their defining job ability. In my case "I want this" because to me it is what being BST is about. The ability to take otherwise aggressive and dangerous monsters and force them to do your bidding. Of course the game will change. But the feeling of having your job systematically restructured into something that you, and many others, are not happy with is a very different thing. Some of the basic things I have used charm to "screw around" with. Experience/leveling, nation's missions, ZM, CoP, ToAU, WotG, the add on scenarios, you know...pretty much everything except the new content where I am not allowed to use charm.


Your mistaking nostalgia with necessity. Nostolgia from a time when bst was forced into a roll that it didn't even have to be by people who couldn't understand the job in the first place.

Necessity? There is no necessity to the existence of the entire game. It is here for entertainment. When something you have put a lot of time and effort into is being changed into something that you would rather it not change into, it can be a bit upsetting. What role do you think BST was forced into? The soloist I assume is what you mean. BST's ability to solo is the reason I chose the job. I was never forced into it. I recognized the strengths of the job in the solo arena and picked it for those strengths.

[Caketime]

Your mistaking nostalgia with necessity. Nostolgia from a time when bst was forced into a roll that it didn't even have to be by people who couldn't understand the job in the first place.

I'm curious about your opinion of the job's Role, you keep insisting that nobody understands the job like you do, so please explain? Enlighten me with your wisdom. Last time you just said that people need to learn how to group, is that it? You're making all kinds of mixed signals about this, almost to the point of complete contradiction. A poor Troll argues himself into a corner.

[Jile]

I do miss using charm but at this point it might be easier to just rename us to Jugmaster's rather than make mobs charmable lol >.<;

[Feynman]

Jugmasters! Lol that is sadly the way it plays now!

[Gotterdammerung]

I've said b4 that i am ok with the move away from charm, only because i understand charm would eventually become irreparably unbalanced.

But i think that IF they want to move completely away from charm in endgame content, then they need to do serious work to replace it with call beast.

It isn't really cool to say CB replaces charm. Because atm with CB we have:

limited monster families at our disposal (with charm we had the pleasure and freedom to enjoy many different types of pets) I think EVERY BST, misses certain pets. And this recent Failvote showed just how strongly BSTs feel about lvl 99 jug selection. Everyone kept asking the same question, "why can't we have most of these options?"
And that is a good question. If CB is supposed to replace charm, then it needs to be able to choose pets from a large list of families (especially when you factor in the whole monster affinity system that is supposed to be closely tied to our job, and the merit skill "killer instinct"), and many bsts miss their favorite friends. I know i miss opo-opo's and krakens and slimes and courrier carrie and life drinker lars and crawlers and hecteyes and dhalmels (just a few of the favorite pets i had the pleasure of partnering with on my journey to 95.)

limited pet TP moves (wild charm pets had access to all of their TP moves and there was more variety of families to charm wich meant a much larger Pet TP sample size.)

I think if they really want to be serious about replacing charm with CB they need to at least work to make CB better in these 2 aspects.

Also, they need to find some way to make charm useful when its unavailable. I think simply fixing the bind to be more accurate and usable on all things plus a little boost to its enmity would be perfect.

And they need to add a use for chr.

[Calamity]

The one thing I would add to Gotter's statement, and honestly this could even be the reason behind SE's current direction with bst, is the call beast timer does somewhat limit what we can solo. Many bsts remember the days of soloing or even teaming up with other bsts by literally throwing charmed pets at the mob in a continuous stream, and even in abyssea, the same tactic could be used to solo some powerful mobs, where call beast limits us by our timer. Reward works well to keep our pets alive, but even that has a timer to worry about. I suppose that may be why they introduced dawn mulsums, but honestly, that's like taxing a bst to imitate something we used to be able to do for free.

If charm isn't coming back, I feel we should at least be granted relaxed timers on some of our abilities to compensate.

[Xilk]

The one thing I would add to Gotter's statement, and honestly this could even be the reason behind SE's current direction with bst, is the call beast timer does somewhat limit what we can solo. Many bsts remember the days of soloing or even teaming up with other bsts by literally throwing charmed pets at the mob in a continuous stream, and even in abyssea, the same tactic could be used to solo some powerful mobs, where call beast limits us by our timer. Reward works well to keep our pets alive, but even that has a timer to worry about. I suppose that may be why they introduced dawn mulsums, but honestly, that's like taxing a bst to imitate something we used to be able to do for free.

If charm isn't coming back, I feel we should at least be granted relaxed timers on some of our abilities to compensate.

Yes, Monsters INc took down Rani a few times like this back in Dec/Jan. (before any of us had 200k brews)

Although we mostly use bst to tank on rani, while the smn coordinate their Bloodpact. Likewise w/ Hahava... and most NM's can be done this way.

[Visari]

Yes, Monsters INc took down Rani a few times like this back in Dec/Jan. (before any of us had 200k brews)

Although we mostly use bst to tank on rani, while the smn coordinate their Bloodpact. Likewise w/ Hahava... and most NM's can be done this way.

Ahhh those were some good times ^^

[Glamdring]

The very life and death of our job is at hand. No matter how many times its been mentioned, it needs to be once more, and kept in the spot light and top of our request priorities!

Beastmasters need up coming content to involve the acutal job itself, which is the ability to charm monsters. So lets remind SE again, and how many ever times it takes that beastmasters need new high level pets, not just pets but pets IN areas which there is a use for them, AND said use to actually be not worthless meaning we want to use charmed pets in most if not all the new content to come, and for things like voidwatch.

No matter how it is spun, twisted and turned, warped or altered, half decent jug pets are not a solid viable alternative or replacement for charmed pets and is nothing more than it has always been, a expensive, usualy quick to die, weak emergency replacment for a charmed pet.

If the beastmaster community's requests are not met on this issue, the "real" joy of playing the job itself will be lost forever.

Now is the time for bst's to band together full force on this issue when it counts the most, because now is the time window of posibility for the future of bst to be made right.

Little overly dramatic there man...

Yes, charm needs to become a meaningful part of our arsenal again. However, are you forgetting your old days on beast? There was plenty of content we were shut out of, with or without jugs for most of the history of the job. As I said in the "which jug?" thread, anything that was magic ot TP spam happy was a weakness for us. We had such a rep as soloers that even if we wanted to help or needed help ourselves we were often told to "go solo it"... which couldn't always be done.

So yes, Voidwatch and WoE are out as far as charming, as Aby has always been, many of the BCNMs, many assaults, even most campaign and all beseiged. That's why SE threw us a bone with jugs in the 1st place. Now that they finally made jugs tough enough to be a semi-viable alternative to charmed pets-at least on their regular attacks if not their specials-I've personally seen us getting some party love. I've actually been ASKED to come beast, despite having multiple alternatives.

The fact is, there are multiple things that can be done now, and if you didn't notice in the update, none of them were put into Abyssea. GoV is tailor-made for beast. As a pup as well I can tell you you could get alot of love just farming pup attachments and throwing them on the AH, and that's not all there is. Beast has always been a farming machine, in some ways even better than thief (yes, I have a 90 thief, I know what I speak of here), and higher-end prey has been added to areas where we can charm, even without our AF/Relic/+charm set.

Here's the deal, no 1 job is able to handle all types of battles, never have been, never will. Have you ever heard the term "pick your battles"? That's really the heart of playing beast. Do they need to expand options for us to charm and fight again? Of course. However, that seems to be exactly the course they are on. With or without pages there is plenty of stuff we can do in charming areas, and there's another lvl-cap to come that will in all likelyhood expand that. Our jugs being up there means that we can make valuable contributions in the non-charm areas, too. Have you ever seen what a bst can do in WoE?! We destroy the place! And that's a jug fight. Pet spam is also a viable tactic in Voidwatch on many fights. The BCNM-type battles have always been a mixed bag of "charm here, jug there", so that's not really a change for us.

[Granny]

Little overly dramatic there man...

Yes, charm needs to become a meaningful part of our arsenal again. However, are you forgetting your old days on beast? There was plenty of content we were shut out of, with or without jugs for most of the history of the job. As I said in the "which jug?" thread, anything that was magic ot TP spam happy was a weakness for us. We had such a rep as soloers that even if we wanted to help or needed help ourselves we were often told to "go solo it"... which couldn't always be done.

So yes, Voidwatch and WoE are out as far as charming, as Aby has always been, many of the BCNMs, many assaults, even most campaign and all beseiged. That's why SE threw us a bone with jugs in the 1st place. Now that they finally made jugs tough enough to be a semi-viable alternative to charmed pets-at least on their regular attacks if not their specials-I've personally seen us getting some party love. I've actually been ASKED to come beast, despite having multiple alternatives.

The fact is, there are multiple things that can be done now, and if you didn't notice in the update, none of them were put into Abyssea. GoV is tailor-made for beast. As a pup as well I can tell you you could get alot of love just farming pup attachments and throwing them on the AH, and that's not all there is. Beast has always been a farming machine, in some ways even better than thief (yes, I have a 90 thief, I know what I speak of here), and higher-end prey has been added to areas where we can charm, even without our AF/Relic/+charm set.

Here's the deal, no 1 job is able to handle all types of battles, never have been, never will. Have you ever heard the term "pick your battles"? That's really the heart of playing beast. Do they need to expand options for us to charm and fight again? Of course. However, that seems to be exactly the course they are on. With or without pages there is plenty of stuff we can do in charming areas, and there's another lvl-cap to come that will in all likelyhood expand that. Our jugs being up there means that we can make valuable contributions in the non-charm areas, too. Have you ever seen what a bst can do in WoE?! We destroy the place! And that's a jug fight. Pet spam is also a viable tactic in Voidwatch on many fights. The BCNM-type battles have always been a mixed bag of "charm here, jug there", so that's not really a change for us.

The only thing that came to mind after reading that was why did you even bother.
Your pro bst right? ... lol

Ya bst jugs are actually "useable" now, but in no way even come close to being a viable alternative to charm as it currently stands. GoV is crap, who cares about charming for that? Pet spam for Voidwatch... you know about the job beastmaster right...? Did you just get charm and call beast mixed up...

Once again, you are after beast becoming improved from its current state right...?

[Glamdring]

Wasn't getting anything mixed up, beast has been my main job since the NA release of the game. By pet spam in voidwatch I was referring to using pet jobs (bst, smn and pup) in the traditional "stand off and kill" tactic; for beast that means jugs to call and pet food between CB cool down. It is a viable tactic on some fights, keeping the party/alliance alive. Even if you don't have a full alliance of pet players the rest can also stand off, using their ranged damage and/or magic to contribute to the DD (and thus helping the pets).

Of course I'm pro-beast, it's my favorite job and always has been. As to your GoV comments tho', I beg to differ. I like that I can charm in those areas because it saves me $ and inventory space, not to mention faster kills since I can pet swap instead of having to reward/rest my jug pet at low HP. I love the skill-up there and as I said, as a pup I love the chest drops (even tho' I've had no luck at all on pup attachments); even in today's game economy 800k for a percolator, etc. is going to be pretty sweet for your wallet, and the junk drops are just a sales bonus.

Basically, I was pointing out that outside the battlefield scenarios the current end-game stuff seems to be moving back to charmable content, pretty much like it was before Aby. I haven't tried it, but even VNM has some viable charm fights, now that mobs have been moved. The crab in ordelles for example is surrounded by the saplings which are in the high 80's, or you can grab bettles from the upper tier when they get close enough to the edge. The annoying part is that level appropriate gear has no +charm on it, meaning a need to either carry old stuff for swapping (costing inventory, which I hate) or resigning yourself to taking damage from the occasional mischarm (tame does still work however).

The one clear advantage to jugs is the possibility of killer effects, but strangely I don't see that being used by most current beasts, largely because many seem to have been infected by the DPS parser thing, rather than survival at least cost. Killer effects can be awesome if used properly, and our only gaps are avian and a current aquan. Not sure why SE has never bothered to close that gap in our jug arsenal. The ability to keep your pet from doing something stupid in its TP moves is off-set by the fact SE left us with the weaker TP stuff and stripped or nerfed all the best TP moves from our jugs.

[Xilk]

Uhmmm, you can't charm in voidwatch. It gets you ejected from the fight. I found that out the unpleasant way. you also lose your current pet when the fight starts.

[scaevola]

Yeah, it would be nice if being a bst at cap didn't mean constantly bleeding gil.

This is an issue with the recipes for jugs, not the viability of Charm.

Anyway, what exactly are people asking for, really? The ability to Charm in Abyssea, which would have been worthless before 95 because everything you were fighting was IT anyway?

[Xilk]

This is an issue with the recipes for jugs, not the viability of Charm.

Anyway, what exactly are people asking for, really? The ability to Charm in Abyssea, which would have been worthless before 95 because everything you were fighting was IT anyway?

Visions mobs started at level 72 or 73. They were D/C to a level 75 job. They ranged from DC~IT and I think the pattern was the same with each Abyssea release at each level cap it was introduced at.
BTW, Bst can charm IT. Thats why familiar is so good...

this is NOT an issue of the recipes for jugs. i think the prices are actually quite affordable. They are actually much better than the jugs price/availability at level 75 cap when it was good luck getting anything but Carrie, and only HQ procs on the recipe's allowed you to get the jug at all.

Furthermore, we did not buy nearly so many jugs before the level cap increase anyway BECAUSE CHARMING was the preferred and most viable option in most circumstances.

[scaevola]

Ok, more to the point, what would shifting focus back to Charm from jugs accomplish? What would the impact on the current game be? Ultimately, you're talking about using pets with 8k health here.

The fact that a BST needs to spend 7k on a Dipper Yuly summon every time he wants to actually function is a Real Issue. It doesn't follow, however, that the best way to resolve this problem is going back to Charm when most EM-to-95 mobs, again, have in the neighborhood of 8k health.

I'm sorry but I have a seriously difficult time going along with a suggestion that amounts to "go back to this other way of functioning about which players complained constantly at the time and seriously limited the viability of the job at 75, because it will recapture the spirit of the job and by the way this totally has nothing to do with the fact that such a change would, in the current state of things, literally double the survivability of what is already one of the most durable jobs in the game".

[Granny]

Ok, more to the point, what would shifting focus back to Charm from jugs accomplish? What would the impact on the current game be? Ultimately, you're talking about using pets with 8k health here.

The fact that a BST needs to spend 7k on a Dipper Yuly summon every time he wants to actually function is a Real Issue. It doesn't follow, however, that the best way to resolve this problem is going back to Charm when most EM-to-95 mobs, again, have in the neighborhood of 8k health.

I'm sorry but I have a seriously difficult time going along with a suggestion that amounts to "go back to this other way of functioning about which players complained constantly at the time and seriously limited the viability of the job at 75, because it will recapture the spirit of the job and by the way this totally has nothing to do with the fact that such a change would, in the current state of things, literally double the survivability of what is already one of the most durable jobs in the game".

You were never a bst before 75 cap were you?

[scaevola]

I played BST far enough to decide I didn't like it, for all the reasons players complained about at 75 (too passive, Charm limited job too much in venues without charmable mobs but buffing it was impossible for how gamebreaking it would be to allow players to make one boss mob fight another boss mob for them per BCNM20s, etc.). It was an altogether pointless job that had a somewhat easier time soloing up to the level cap than other jobs in return for not really being able to do anything meaningful or interesting when it got there. This is no longer the case and it's all thanks to the versatility and consistency of the new focus on jugs.

What about my post is wrong?

[Vizardx]

Tbh its not so much that charm is broken as it is that the Games content has changed.
We could never use charm in Assualt/nyzul/sea and the like.
what BST remembered charm for was its ability to solo Open world spawning NMs. Thats whats been taken away.
It wasnt that they broke charm, it's that they've Hidden all the NMs since 80+ inside uncharmable areas. OR locks away ur abilty to taget outside monsters during things like Voidwatch

[Gotterdammerung]

What about my post is wrong?

Would be quicker to say what is right about your post. Giving charm a spot in endgame would be too strong. I am a main bst, I love charm. I would love to keep it around. But i can't kid myself. Throwing 100+ lvl pets with insane HP with back up pets just milling around the map is to strong in any scenario. It is for that reason that i understand SE's move to jug pets. So they can regulate the power of the pets.

Your comment on the cost of pets being a problem was also right. People can argue about this all day. They say "I do alright, i make tons of money so i can afford the cost." Or "I farm and craft them myself so i don't pay that much." Or "the jugs are real strong so they should be expensive." To which i say, It takes time in this game to reach a level where you understand the content well enough to exploit parameters for gil (farm gil). Not everyone has the money. And for those of us who do, why should we pay 30%-50% of our income on supplies? I have been loosely keeping up with how much money i spend on pet items since the 76+ jug update using ffxiah's AH history function. I stopped counting around 40 million because it got to depressing. It sucks to spend some time farming up 8 mil so that you wont have to worry about money for a while, and end up farming again a month later. And for the "crafters" arguement just refer to the "pet shop" thread in this forums. For the "there strong so its worth the money" argument i say What about equivalency? In the old days i bought this argument. Wheel spamming ninja's could do some massive damage if they wanted to literally throw money away. Rangers did boss damage but had a hefty price tag. But that doesnt describe bsts situation. Bst isnt paying lots of money to be above average strength. It IS paying lots of money just to exist.

The rest of your post was opinion, venom and prejudice.

It was the typical "I tried bst (and sucked at it), and i think bst sucks (because you sucked at it).
Or "I saw a bst fighting X once (he sucked), and i think bst sucks (because the guy you saw sucks).

and these 2 lead to "my LS leader doesn't want bst in events because they suck. He bases this opinion on hard facts (hard facts- otherwise known as hearsay, misunderstandings, bad math and faulty logic).

[scaevola]

So, the two things I said about BST that were actual relevant statements and not me saying "no I did not spend my valuable time playing a job that did not interest me and here is why", putting Charm in endgame would be too strong and jugs are too expensive, werecorrect? Great!

I think BST is awesome, just wasn't my thing. Where are you getting that I thought it sucked? Because I realized I wouldn't be able to charm stuff in Salvage? You can't whine about old LS leaders underestimating the potential of Charm when there was pretty much no event other than kings or maybe sky farming (outside?) where you could actually use it.

(ps you say it would be faster to say what i got right than what i got wrong, then spent five times as much text saying what I got right than what I got wrong. you're adorable.)

[Xilk]

I like charm w/ all the mechanics exactly as it is. I like the charm success rate. I loved bst because It could go so awesomely to take down BIG nm's and control a crowd swapping pets in and out. It was thrilling.

Charm has the built in balance that if charm fails.. the mob you tried to charm, eats your face. And charm will wear off....
That is all the balance Charm has ever needed.

the limitations have all been in the mobs added to the game ever since. Can't charm anything worthwhile... It took away a very very fun dynamic. That's the whole of it. very simple.

[scaevola]

Because when I think of what could make FFXI better, adding a bunch of world spawn NMs to the 3 or 4 areas with potential pets strong enough to be useful is definitely top on the list. Dragon's Aery #1!

[Gotterdammerung]

So, the two things I said about BST that were actual relevant statements and not me saying "no I did not spend my valuable time playing a job that did not interest me and here is why", putting Charm in endgame would be too strong and jugs are too expensive, werecorrect? Great!

I think BST is awesome, just wasn't my thing. Where are you getting that I thought it sucked? Because I realized I wouldn't be able to charm stuff in Salvage? You can't whine about old LS leaders underestimating the potential of Charm when there was pretty much no event other than kings or maybe sky farming (outside?) where you could actually use it.

(ps you say it would be faster to say what i got right than what i got wrong, then spent five times as much text saying what I got right than what I got wrong. you're adorable.)

-Yup

-and I'm getting it from you saying bst was a pointless job. It wasn't pointless and if you knew what you were doing bst was very valuable in those endgame events even without charm (and still is today.)


- I didn't go into detail about the "wrong" parts, i just summed them up. If i had gone into detail it would of been more text than the "right" section. But I like to think I am still adorable.

[scaevola]

Am I not allowed to like BST while still holding the opinion that being forced to rely on at-the-time pretty weak jug pets for the vast majority of stuff I'd ever do more than once made it pretty useless?

[Visari]

I'm sorry but I have a seriously difficult time going along with a suggestion that amounts to "go back to this other way of functioning about which players complained constantly at the time and seriously limited the viability of the job at 75, because it will recapture the spirit of the job and by the way this totally has nothing to do with the fact that such a change would, in the current state of things, literally double the survivability of what is already one of the most durable jobs in the game".

Look, just because you did not like the way the job functioned back then and never came to a complete understanding of the job does not in anyway, shape or form mean that it should not go back to that way. I for one would love to have my jobs main ability back and in the spot light no matter how "durable" you may think we are. No other job has had its main ability raped and pillaged quite like bst has. Before all these new jugs I did not have to carry around millions of dollars worth of supplies (that may last me a month) cramping up my inventory. Its not about the money I farm and make all my own supplies so don't bring that up. We were just as formidable in endgame situations before as we are now but its the close mindedness and lack of understanding that gets us labeled otherwise.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I for one would love to have my jobs main ability back and in the spot light...Explain to all of us why charm is bst's main ability?

[Calamity]

Explain to all of us why charm is bst's main ability?

Please be fair, you're the only one who needs it explained to. Most of us know better.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Please be fair, you're the only one who needs it explained to. Most of us know better.There's been plenty of other people who refute the near outlandish claims of this thread's OP. I am quite serious. Why is charm bst's main ability over something else?

[scaevola]

We were just as formidable in endgame situations before as we are now but its the close mindedness and lack of understanding that gets us labeled otherwise.

Oh, then I must be mistaken, and BST could charm stuff in Assaults, Limbus, Dynamis, KSNMs, sea, meaningful areas in sky, and so forth*, and did not have to rely on relatively weak jug pets. Also, I must have dreamed the hundreds of threads on literally every FFXI site out there started by BSTs complaining about how bad BST was in endgame events. Thanks for clearing that up!




*If you need me to explain to you why being able to charm stuff in, say, Limbus floors with 8 mobs would have been a bad thing, I'm going to be pretty much at a loss for words

[Vizardx]

Its the ability we get at level 1?
Its the ability that our job was pretty much based around? (Charming monsters and using them to help us?)

Also, stop kidding your self. Charm isnt any more broken at lv 99 than it was at level 10.
so monsters have more hp? They also hit harder as well. so I cant see how thats really a big deal?

Call Beast is way more broken now than Charm ever was. At least charm tied us down to mob levels
of the current zone we are in. Now? we can call a lv 93-95 jugpet into any area of the game.
I doubt many jobs can utterly rape every piece of old content in the game as effortlessly as BST can.

IMO BST needs both Charm and Call beast to be effective.

[scaevola]

Let's take a step back for a moment.

1) What exactly would you like Charm to do (exactly; "I want Charm to be good in endgame" isn't any more helpful than "I want a pony") that jug pets don't, and

2) How would you implement such a thing without negatively impacting literally everyone in the game not currently on BST by putting more mobs that could kill them into areas where they'll be fighting stuff that could kill them without the help of said mobs?

Charm is a unique ability in that its effectiveness is totally dependent on the environment; the whole point of the shift in focus to Call Beast was to get away from this, and I for one think it was a good call. You CANNOT make Charm more effective without making everyone else's lives worse.



EDIT: Of course, there's another issue at work here, one which you guys REALLY probably won't want to hear. :/ If, say, Charm were really good in Voidwatch, why would I go as BST when I could go as, say, RNG/BST and have all the advantages of being a RNG on top of being nearly as pet-effective as a BST main?

Now that I think about it, with Decoy Shot, it's too bad RNG can't use Magian axes. :(

[Xilk]

I have no problem w/ /bst as it is for any one who wants to use it. Even if they made the zone actually have something charmable and worthwhile.

[scaevola]

Even if there's a strong argument to be made that if Charm were competitive with Call Beast in endgame, nearly anything /BST would be superior to BST main (barring Familiaring an IT, of course)?

[Visari]

I have always enjoyed /bst. Its one of the perks to having bst leveled. Lets face it though, people are not going to /bst if they do not like the job. The ability to do so has been around forever and still most folks didn't do it because they don't like the job in the first place.

[Calamity]

Even if there's a strong argument to be made that if Charm were competitive with Call Beast in endgame, nearly anything /BST would be superior to BST main (barring Familiaring an IT, of course)?

Because as we all know trying to charm a level 90ish mob at level 47 works so well *rolls eyes*

[Visari]

Actually charm's potency is based off of your main job beastmaster level, not the level it is set as as a support job, nor the level of your current main job. So for it to work properly as a sub you need to have bst capped.

[scaevola]

Woah, you mean I'd have to level a job to 95???

How ever would I manage that!


Because as we all know trying to charm a level 90ish mob at level 47 works so well *rolls eyes*

lol



Lets face it though, people are not going to /bst if they do not like the job.

uh

I guess all those people are just playing WAR, MNK, and WHM because they really love the jobs and not because they are mathematically superior options due to abilities with which there exists no way for other jobs to compete.


The ability to do so has been around forever and still most folks didn't do it because they don't like the job in the first place.

No, most folks didn't do it because if you didn't like leveling solo, Charm was not valuable enough to justify taking Yet Another Job to 75 simply to use as a sub for content for which it honestly became pretty redundant around the Signet Def/Eva buff in.....early 2006, was it?

[Calamity]

Actually charm's potency is based off of your main job beastmaster level, not the level it is set as as a support job, nor the level of your current main job. So for it to work properly as a sub you need to have bst capped.

Ah, right you are. Sorry, I never experimented all that much with bst as a sub, so I didn't really research it overly much. thank you for correcting me

[Visari]

First of all don't be loling someone for not knowing the in and outs of bst. It is obvious you don't know enough yourself.


Oh, then I must be mistaken, and BST could charm stuff in Assaults, Limbus, Dynamis, KSNMs, sea, meaningful areas in sky, and so forth*, and did not have to rely on relatively weak jug pets. Also, I must have dreamed the hundreds of threads on literally every FFXI site out there started by BSTs complaining about how bad BST was in endgame events. Thanks for clearing that up!

Do not just take one bst in your party of whatever your doing as useless. Its obvious you have never been in an all bst (ls) ally or party running through namis, assault, nyzul, inner sky, sea, einherjar or anything else. Even with the jugs back then we were formidable. It is not my fault you have never got to witness that. You can chalk that up to your inability to even imagine us doing something like that as whole.

[scaevola]

It is really, REALLY messed up for you to consider my unwillingness to drop 100+ hours to level a job that all evidence suggested would not provide me with any real benefit some sort of failing of character. Seriously, do you realize how insane that sounds?


First of all don't be loling someone for not knowing the in and outs of bst. It is obvious you don't know enough yourself.


I will lol when they roll eyes over something they're wrong about.

Meanwhile, nobody has been able to point out anything I've said as being wrong. You're just taking personal offense at me not wanting to invest time in leveling a job I had no reason to level.


Do not just take one bst in your party of whatever your doing as useless. Its obvious you have never been in an all bst (ls) ally or party running through namis, assault, nyzul, inner sky, sea, einherjar or anything else.

So, BST was fine with jug pets only being as powerful as they were at 75?

[Feynman]

1) What exactly would you like Charm to do (exactly; "I want Charm to be good in endgame" isn't any more helpful than "I want a pony") that jug pets don't

Charm mobs.


2) How would you implement such a thing without negatively impacting literally everyone in the game not currently on BST by putting more mobs that could kill them into areas where they'll be fighting stuff that could kill them without the help of said mobs?

Honestly, I think the problem is creating content in such a way that you must remove a specific job's main ability or else it's weighted poorly. This seems sloppy. All the original content was designed such that, while each job had certain strengths and weaknesses, all jobs had a role and could function without a huge imbalance. I know people are about to point out the difficulty most jobs had soloing, but remember old content was centered around the idea that you HAD to work together. BST was the most notable exception, giving the soloist a job to still be able to play.


Charm is a unique ability in that its effectiveness is totally dependent on the environment; the whole point of the shift in focus to Call Beast was to get away from this, and I for one think it was a good call.

We'll have to disagree on this one. The shift to Call Beast from Charm is, in my opinion, something like this.

"Let's make BST able to call a subpar pet anywhere and throw it at mobs, instead of having BST understand different mobs, the lay of the land, family strengths/weaknesses, and all that other stuff that Charm requires."

It is, to me, another example of the move to "easy mode" where every problem is solved by just getting enough people to beat on a monster.


You CANNOT make Charm more effective without making everyone else's lives worse.

I honestly don't understand this comment. If this were true then it would have been impossible for Charm to have ever been effective without ruining other people's gameplay experience.

[Calamity]

It is really, REALLY messed up for you to consider my unwillingness to drop 100+ hours to level a job that all evidence suggested would not provide me with any real benefit some sort of failing of character. Seriously, do you realize how insane that sounds?

This is the part I'm having the most trouble understanding. On several occasions you've said how much you dislike the job, and that you would consider it a waste of your time to even level it. With that in mind, why are you even here? Why are you even bothering to argue on a subject that really has little to nothing to do with you?

[Gotterdammerung]

This is the part I'm having the most trouble understanding. On several occasions you've said how much you dislike the job, and that you would consider it a waste of your time to even level it. With that in mind, why are you even here? Why are you even bothering to argue on a subject that really has little to nothing to do with you?

Oooh, snap!