Salvage Gear Enhancements

[Gokku]

Long ago SE claimed they would be fixing nysule / limbus / salavge gear. Now Sky / Ein, have both gotten gear updates to put the pieces back to a respectable and useable level. Yet no work or comment ive seen from the dev team has even touched on anything for the other zones promised. Now this may be me wanting the gear i spent millions on and a solid 2 years+ to finish not to be useless but alot of the salvage gear HAD great stats and just need a small boost to put them back up there.

tl:dr make my usu / ares / morrigans sets useful again.

[Panthera]

I respect the amount of work you and others put into getting these sets. I guess they started with the original end game sets to get feel for implementation, before they work up to Salvage gear. Consider they still have to do Homam and other sets as well... let them cut their teeth first on other sets before they work on Usu!

OP, it's not enough to say, "Make Salvage gear useful again." What stats do you want on which pieces? Don't leave it to them, or you'll end up with CHR on your Usu feet.

[Leonlionheart]

Honestly for most things I can't see any piece of gear that would be better than the job-specific AF3.

For DDs the line's pretty blurred, but for Marduk's and Morrigan's sets it would be extremely hard to beat pieces like WHM AF3+2 head or SMN AF3+2 body. Morrigan's for BLM you just put on MAB that beats out AF3+2, but for BLU you need haste to make it acceptable to TP in, or large amounts of STR/DEX/VIT/AGI to make it acceptable to cast spells in. RDM needs a mixture of Macc, INT, MND, MAB, and hopefully some form of cure potency.

So you're looking at a piece like this:
Morrigan's Coronal: MP+25, STR+9, INT+9, MND+9, Accuracy+15, Magic Accuracy+7
That's just buffing the stats that it already has, and the minimum amount required to make it more useful than pieces already out there. Still, you probably wouldn't use it over Aias bonnet on BLU, or AF3+2 on BLU, or AF3+2 on RDM.

Honestly to make the gear useful now what really needs to be done is to make it actually useful in the first place. Usukane was the only set that had full-time TP pieces, and a mix of WS pieces. Ares pretty much completely sucks other than body/legs, and Skadi is total trash too other than a few select pieces for a handful of situations.

Ares head/hands/feet combined need to total like, 16 haste to become useful, and have over something like 20 attack or something comparable to 10% Crit damage, along with around 5% DA. Body needs 8 attack, 3 str to compare to grim, and for the PLD side needs 1 more refresh and some form of damage taken %- to make it useful.

Skadi just needs a complete overhaul, getting rid of the evasion- and adding in more haste or something like critical rate.

Usukane on the otherhand is still very useful for MNKs for a hybrid haste/evasion set. They get large amounts of evasion (+29) along with capped shown-haste at the same time. Not to mention enmity, subtle blow, and counter+. All you need is evasion ear, neck, and ring(s) and you can still keep moderate hate while taking less damage. To make it useful for SAM again is very improbable, considering SAM can, in a way, bypass the haste cap with their AF3+2 pants considering the Hasso augmentation is Haste+2.5% on Hasso, making them capable of 27.5% haste in gear. We all know haste is king. Again still useful to NIN for a hybrid evasion/haste set.

[SpankWustler]

Some pieces of Morrigan's Underwears are still useful for Blue Mage currently, although only for Sanguine Blade or a magical spell here and there. Skadi's ChefboyardeeX remain BeastMaster's best option for movement speed.

And, uh, that's about it at present.

The development team seems to be updating old gear roughly in the order it was created, so Salvage equipment will probably come last.

[Helel]

Honestly for most things I can't see any piece of gear that would be better than the job-specific AF3.

For DDs the line's pretty blurred, but for Marduk's and Morrigan's sets it would be extremely hard to beat pieces like WHM AF3+2 head or SMN AF3+2 body. Morrigan's for BLM you just put on MAB that beats out AF3+2, but for BLU you need haste to make it acceptable to TP in, or large amounts of STR/DEX/VIT/AGI to make it acceptable to cast spells in. RDM needs a mixture of Macc, INT, MND, MAB, and hopefully some form of cure potency.

So you're looking at a piece like this:
Morrigan's Coronal: MP+25, STR+9, INT+9, MND+9, Accuracy+15, Magic Accuracy+7
That's just buffing the stats that it already has, and the minimum amount required to make it more useful than pieces already out there. Still, you probably wouldn't use it over Aias bonnet on BLU, or AF3+2 on BLU, or AF3+2 on RDM.

Honestly to make the gear useful now what really needs to be done is to make it actually useful in the first place. Usukane was the only set that had full-time TP pieces, and a mix of WS pieces. Ares pretty much completely sucks other than body/legs, and Skadi is total trash too other than a few select pieces for a handful of situations.

Ares head/hands/feet combined need to total like, 16 haste to become useful, and have over something like 20 attack or something comparable to 10% Crit damage, along with around 5% DA. Body needs 8 attack, 3 str to compare to grim, and for the PLD side needs 1 more refresh and some form of damage taken %- to make it useful.

Skadi just needs a complete overhaul, getting rid of the evasion- and adding in more haste or something like critical rate.

Usukane on the otherhand is still very useful for MNKs for a hybrid haste/evasion set. They get large amounts of evasion (+29) along with capped shown-haste at the same time. Not to mention enmity, subtle blow, and counter+. All you need is evasion ear, neck, and ring(s) and you can still keep moderate hate while taking less damage. To make it useful for SAM again is very improbable, considering SAM can, in a way, bypass the haste cap with their AF3+2 pants considering the Hasso augmentation is Haste+2.5% on Hasso, making them capable of 27.5% haste in gear. We all know haste is king. Again still useful to NIN for a hybrid evasion/haste set.

This is mostly incorrect. Morrigan's body is still the best nuking body for BLU, even with BA up for charged whisker. Morrigan's legs are also the best nuking legs for BLU without BA up. Morrigan's head was never useful in the first place so I'm not sure why you decided to bring it up. Morrigan's feet are great for whirl of rage and possibly stoneskin/MND piece for BLM. Hands are indeed quite useless.

I don't use ares for any of my jobs, but I know many of the pieces are good for DRK WS torcleaver, and probably some others too.

Usukane sune-ate are currently the best TP/DD feet for NIN. They are also the best TP/DD feet for SAM in some situations if you need the store tp. Body is decent evasion body with some nice stats.

Marduk body is useful as a pre-cast piece. I don't recall WHM or SMN AF3 having fast cast so I'm not sure why you ruled it out completely. Marduk feet have summoning skill (though augmented zenith pumps may be better). Hands have regen, great idle piece. I'm not sure how well this set works for BRD anymore so I won't comment on it.

Skadi hands are still good for RNG. The feet are not necessary for most jobs, but hey, it's near-free movement speed. The body was never good except for dancing edge. Not sure if that's still true now.

[Malamasala]

I don't have any salvage armors because they sucked to begin with. They better not put anything good on them now afterwards and force me to get sets.

At least not without making SMN immune to salvage so I don't have to be a naked SMN with 60 seconds BP timer and 17 MP per tick drain, without magic to summon or abilities to assault. Darn useless event. It couldn't have died out soon enough.

[Leonlionheart]

Morrigan's body is still best, and I addressed there being niche pieces though not clearly enough.
Legs are good for BLU nuking, but I'm not sure how much you nuke w/o BA up. I essentially never do, as Whirl of Rage is more useful/less mp/more damage. Morrigan's feet are total and complete trash. Stoneskin caps w/ cruor buffs inside, outside I don't think you'll have enough enhancing magic to need MND.

Ares body is still good for Torcleaver. Rest is utter crap, augmented hands from gold chests in attohwa are better, or random pool VIT augment on adaman/armada are nice too.

Usukane sune-ate are arguably still best tp feet for NIN if you use Dusk+1 hands, but for SAM you can't cap haste with them and 5hit.

Marduk is a macro piece, marduk feet are best for cure if you don't use serpentes, serpentes have regen and refresh, marduk hands are useless. The set is trash for BRD, as I think, though am not certain, that every AF3+2 trumps it.

Skadi hands suck compared to the benefits of AF3+2. Can't 4hit w/o them, and 5hit is cakewalk w/ them. Feet are w/e, though worse than other options in the long run (-5 evasion :<).

@SpankWustler Einherjar ABJ gear says hi, though I agree with the point overall.

[Leonlionheart]

I don't have any salvage armors because they sucked to begin with. They better not put anything good on them now afterwards and force me to get sets.

At least not without making SMN immune to salvage so I don't have to be a naked SMN with 60 seconds BP timer and 17 MP per tick drain, without magic to summon or abilities to assault. Darn useless event. It couldn't have died out soon enough.

"sucked to begin with," even though at least one piece from each set were the best possible for over 75% of jobs. Just because something sucks for SMN doesn't mean it sucks for everyone. Seriously, whats with the SMN perspective on the game that it's the only job there is?

[Rearden]

Morrigan's body is still best, and I addressed there being niche pieces though not clearly enough.
Legs are good for BLU nuking, but I'm not sure how much you nuke w/o BA up. I essentially never do, as Whirl of Rage is more useful/less mp/more damage. Morrigan's feet are total and complete trash. Stoneskin caps w/ cruor buffs inside, outside I don't think you'll have enough enhancing magic to need MND.

Ares body is still good for Torcleaver. Rest is utter crap, augmented hands from gold chests in attohwa are better, or random pool VIT augment on adaman/armada are nice too.

Usukane sune-ate are arguably still best tp feet for NIN if you use Dusk+1 hands, but for SAM you can't cap haste with them and 5hit.

Marduk is a macro piece, marduk feet are best for cure if you don't use serpentes, serpentes have regen and refresh, marduk hands are useless. The set is trash for BRD, as I think, though am not certain, that every AF3+2 trumps it.

Skadi hands suck compared to the benefits of AF3+2. Can't 4hit w/o them, and 5hit is cakewalk w/ them. Feet are w/e, though worse than other options in the long run (-5 evasion :<).

@SpankWustler Einherjar ABJ gear says hi, though I agree with the point overall.
False. More like, with them you can cap haste and 5 hit without crap gear sacrifices.

[Tamoa]

I'm hoping for an upgrade of salvage gear aswell. So many people spent so much time obtaining these gearpieces/sets, and just speaking for myself it's a shame all the pieces are currently collecting dust @ the Porter Moogle.


I don't have any salvage armors because they sucked to begin with. They better not put anything good on them now afterwards and force me to get sets.

At least not without making SMN immune to salvage so I don't have to be a naked SMN with 60 seconds BP timer and 17 MP per tick drain, without magic to summon or abilities to assault. Darn useless event. It couldn't have died out soon enough.

Even if SE does "put anything good on them", nobody is forcing you to do salvage. And why would you go smn to salvage anyway? Is it the only job you have?

[Leonlionheart]

False. More like, with them you can cap haste and 5 hit without crap gear sacrifices.

No, you literally can't cap haste w/ usu feet without sacrificing +2 legs, therefore losing out on one of the only real advantages SAMs have in terms of haste. Also losing +2 legs would kind of render the STP bonus on Usu feet useless, wouldn't it?

Also assuming 5hit on Masa, which requires huge haste sacrifices in the first place. lol kikugosaku is like, automatic 5hit, but lol if you're using that and playing SAM seriously.

[Monchat]

Id rather them make level 99's ultimate gear be magian trials were you have to collect a certain number of items from salvage/znm/einherjar/etc to combine them. making salvage +1 gear will be pointless, we know its going to suck, although, for things like usukane, you only need to improve each piece but ~2-3% in order to beat full tantra+2, but for other jobs it won't be the case.

[Leonlionheart]

at 75: "How can they make something better than Byakko's Haidate?"
at 80: "How can they make something better than Relics?"
at 85: "How can they make something better than AF3+2 head for TP?"
at 90: "How can they make something better than AF3+2?"

inb4 Ares body has attack+40 and ares mask has haste+9%

[noodles355]

Skadi was/is still one of/THE best solo SATA head piece. and one of the best (other being Maat's cap) solo TA pieces.
Skadi body is/was the best dancing edge piece.
Skadi hands still are very good physical ranged WS hands.
Skadi feet still have movement+.
Skadi legs were the best Thf and Cor TP pants at 75. Add some more haste to them and they probably would jump up there again.

I agree they need buffs, but I disagree with skadi being terribad. Especially as 2 pieces are still the best for certain uses (however situational they are).

[Leonlionheart]

Skadi was/is still one of/THE best solo SATA head piece. and one of the best (other being Maat's cap) solo TA pieces.
Skadi body is/was the best dancing edge piece.
Skadi hands still are very good physical ranged WS hands.
Skadi feet still have movement+.
Skadi legs were the best Thf and Cor TP pants at 75. Add some more haste to them and they probably would jump up there again.

I agree they need buffs, but I disagree with skadi being terribad. Especially as 2 pieces are still the best for certain uses (however situational they are).

Skadi had its place, but it didn't hold a candle to some of the others.

Homam legs say hi to THF though.
Skadi hands are good if you suck at gearing RNG, I guess. Maybe, MAYBE, for Sidewinder/Refulgent.

[Zhronne]

Honestly for most things I can't see any piece of gear that would be better than the job-specific AF3.
That "for the most things" of yours makes it hard to understand the full extent of your statement.
I guess I agree, if I got it right?

It has to be said though that there are a few pieces that STILL are pretty good/decent even with their level 75 stats. Were SE to increase such stats and maybe even add new ones, such pieces would become top-edge again.

Take Usukane Hizayoroi, it's no augmented Shura+1 or Hachiryu, but it's still ok for WSing, for PUP it's probably the best option for WS. Same could be said for body, and probably for feet. Sure, there are better options but they're still okaysh and for some jobs it's actually the best.
Think about refresh +2/+3 on a Marduk's Body with furtherly enhanced Fast Cast and, say, +16 to the stats, and maybe more MP too, wouldn't that be okayish? For example I still use my Marduk's Body as an Idle body for SMN (when no avatar is out) or BRD.

If I recall a couple of Morrigan pieces are still pretty nice for BLU, etc etc. and Skadi feet are the only mov speed +12 perma option for BSt if I recall. There can be many examples.
All in all an update to Salvo gear would be welcome.
Nobody demands for it to be so good that everybody will want to fulltime it, it's just a matter of giving people more situational options, imho.

Also, I think they should update Salvo gear so that DNC and SCH can equip it.
SCH could go for Morri/Marduk, and DNC could go for Usu/Skadi? Dunno...

[Rearden]

No, you literally can't cap haste w/ usu feet without sacrificing +2 legs, therefore losing out on one of the only real advantages SAMs have in terms of haste. Also losing +2 legs would kind of render the STP bonus on Usu feet useless, wouldn't it?

Also assuming 5hit on Masa, which requires huge haste sacrifices in the first place. lol kikugosaku is like, automatic 5hit, but lol if you're using that and playing SAM seriously.

No you're right, but keep trashing around the forums anyway because this is the first time you've been wrong.
http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets/?id=227005

Capped haste (assuming hasso) 20.3 TP/hit through melee phase.

Technically, Goading belt (assuming hasso) can actually be swapped in and still hit the haste cap/right below it for 20.8 TP/hit through melee phase.

[Leonlionheart]

Your link is broken.

However capping haste in gear through the bonus on legs w/ hasso isn't really capping haste in gear, if my assumptions about the set is correct.

[Atomic_Skull]

Skadi hands are still good for RNG.

Not compared to Sylvan Glovettes +2 they aren't.

[hiko]

legs bonus is not gear haste, saying you cap haste because hasso bonus is wrong unless you have marches and samba (cap total haste without caping gear)

[Okipuit]

It's time to Salvage some gear!

Sorry for the bump but we just received the following information from development:
Along with the higher tier Salvage expansion, we will also be introducing means to revamp the existing Salvage equipment. This will not take place via Trial of the Magians, instead it will be similar to the system used for Homam/Nashira equipment in the higher tier Limbus.

[Zerich]

It's time to Salvage some gear!

Sorry for the bump but we just received the following information from development:
Along with the higher tier Salvage expansion, we will also be introducing means to revamp the existing Salvage equipment. This will not take place via Trial of the Magians, instead it will be similar to the system used for Homam/Nashira equipment in the higher tier Limbus.

This makes me a sad panda.

[detlef]

I hope it's more of a significant improvement that neo-Limbus gear is over Homam/Nashira.

[Chrisstreb]

In fairness though, rather have this than random (crap) augments from Synergy

[scaevola]

It's time to Salvage some gear!

Sorry for the bump but we just received the following information from development:
Along with the higher tier Salvage expansion, we will also be introducing means to revamp the existing Salvage equipment. This will not take place via Trial of the Magians, instead it will be similar to the system used for Homam/Nashira equipment in the higher tier Limbus.

WACK AS HELL

[scaevola]

Seriously, do not squander the opportunity to update Salvage in the image of Neo-Dynamis, which I promise you everyone would ADORE, by phoning it in the way you did with Limbus and Einherjar.

I don't consider myself prone to hyperbole wrt FFXI but it would really be a tragedy.

[Zerich]

Maybe they were joking when they said that "Mythics will be the casuals' Relic"?

[Tunasushi]

AWWW Casuals gonna be maaaadddd

haha, gj se.

keep stickin it to em'.

hopefully dungeon scrawling will be exclusive like all the rest of the new content.

[Zuidar]

It's time to Salvage some gear!

Sorry for the bump but we just received the following information from development:
Along with the higher tier Salvage expansion, we will also be introducing means to revamp the existing Salvage equipment. This will not take place via Trial of the Magians, instead it will be similar to the system used for Homam/Nashira equipment in the higher tier Limbus.


Regarding the new equipment that's going to be from the revamped Salvage, will we see Dancer and Scholar being able to equip any of those pieces? I'm a bit worried seeing how SCH and DNC can't wear any of the salvage gear ( or in general just to let out; other kinds of gear like HNM/sky abjurations

[Quetzacoatl]

Good news, but could we also get a preview of some of the planned stats for neo-salvage armors whenever the chance arises?

If the neo-salvage gear/upgraded salvage gear isn't mediocre like some players fear it will be, then the incentive of going after desireable upgrades for salvage gear would be a great way to bring in more alexandrite into circulation.

[Vagrua]

It's time to Salvage some gear!

Sorry for the bump but we just received the following information from development:
Along with the higher tier Salvage expansion, we will also be introducing means to revamp the existing Salvage equipment. This will not take place via Trial of the Magians, instead it will be similar to the system used for Homam/Nashira equipment in the higher tier Limbus.

Perhaps upon releasing higher tier Salvage, you could lower the existing Salvage entry from 3 people down to 1-2 people?

This would revive Salvage for the community with the revamp of the original equipment since the content is aimed at level 75 players; people are able to solo or duo the content now at level 99.

[Tamarsamar]

If the Morrigan's set does not get improved melee stats, I swear that I will fly to Japan, wearing a green Chapeau, walk into Square Enix corporate, and personally flip all of your tables.

(Or not. The new non-upgraded Nashira pieces are actually pretty sweet. Perhaps I will just flip over one table, then.)

[Kitkat]

But if you flip tables then how will I hide under them and stab toes demanding they fix it?

Personally, I just hope they have significant updates to make them worth the next tier of salvage.

[Demon6324236]

I just hope the new Salvage is done enough to make Alex prices more reasonable with the high number needed so that they actually exist.

[Zerich]

it's going to be just as successful and awesome as limbus re-vamp!
#sarcasm

[Fusionx]

Having to go through all that stuff again to "remake" a lvl 99 salvage body makes me sadface.. more details would be appreciated

[wish12oz]

it's going to be just as successful and awesome as limbus re-vamp!


I hope so, I hate salvage.

[Raksha]

Crap, now I have to get salvage gear.

Thanks, SE.

[Zirael]

Crap, now I have to get salvage gear.

Thanks, SE.
This announcement is mostly to make people go back into Salvage and farm Alex for all those crying there's no supply for Mythics. You really expect anything better than Neo-Limbus out of this?

[Raksha]

This announcement is mostly to make people go back into Salvage and farm Alex for all those crying there's no supply for Mythics. You really expect anything better than Neo-Limbus out of this?

I hope all the gear sucks, but we're talking about SE here, adding the good gear to the super lame ass events, while putting all the crap gear in the events that are easy and relatively fun is what they do best.

[ManaKing]

Morrigan's 2.0 better be beastly and scaled appropriately for lvl 99.

[Tunasushi]

The gear is gonna be on par with nyzul, probably better

the gear will be hard to obtain.

[Tamarsamar]

The gear is gonna be on par with nyzul,

After what happened to the (now more or less outdated) Goliard set, this is precisely what I'm worried about.

[Camate]

Greetings!

Similar to how we added jobs that previously could not wear Homam/Nashira to the new Murzim and Shedir equipment available via the new higher-tier Limbus areas, the development team is planning to add dancer, scholar, and other jobs to the new Salvage equipment, but not to the currently existing Salvage gear.

In regards to reducing the number of required players for entry, I believe a similar response was made in the past about assault, but we do not have any plans of lowering the requirement due to concerns that instances will be filled faster causing congestion.

[FrankReynolds]

Greetings!

Similar to how we added jobs that previously could not wear Homam/Nashira to the new Murzim and Shedir equipment available via the new higher-tier Limbus areas, the development team is planning to add dancer, scholar, and other jobs to the new Salvage equipment, but not to the currently existing Salvage gear.

In regards to reducing the number of required players for entry, I believe a similar response was made in the past about assault, but we do not have any plans of lowering the requirement due to concerns that instances will be filled faster causing congestion.

Yeah, all that congestion in neo-nyzul isle was crrrrrazzzy!

Oh... wait...

[tyrantsyn]

Ha Ha Ha Ha...... sarcasm!!!

[MarkovChain]

In regards to reducing the number of required players for entry, I believe a similar response was made in the past about assault, but we do not have any plans of lowering the requirement due to concerns that instances will be filled faster causing congestion.

Even though I think many players will hate it I think it's fine to keep it 6 man minimum. It's infinitely better that random luck floors.

[Zirael]

In regards to reducing the number of required players for entry, I believe a similar response was made in the past about assault, but we do not have any plans of lowering the requirement due to concerns that instances will be filled faster causing congestion.
If I was afraid something bad will happen, I wouldn't leave my bed, ever. How about giving players this option and checking IF it causes significant congestion? Limbus is a great example of that. Development team was fine with solo BSTs, NINs, BLUs, DNCs, PUPs, BLMs locking out zones for up to an hour for something like 2 years by now. Did the world come to an end?
Also, as FrankReynolds mentioned, Development Team's fear of this change might have as much ground as fear for Nyzul Isle Uncharted congestion.

[Zirael]

Even though I think many players will hate it I think it's fine to keep it 6 man minimum. It's infinitely better that random luck floors.
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Category:Salvage
Required: Job Level 65, Treasures of Aht Urhgan Mission 17 Complete, Remnants Permit (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Remnants_Permit)
Party Size: 3-18 Members
Duration: 100 Minutes (1 Hour, 40 Minutes)

[SpankWustler]

In regards to reducing the number of required players for entry, I believe a similar response was made in the past about assault, but we do not have any plans of lowering the requirement due to concerns that instances will be filled faster causing congestion.

This reminds me of the time I filled a neti pot with vodka in an over-aggressive attempt to prevent nasal congestion.

[Helel]

Okay . . . uh . . . limbus zones are not even pseudo-instanced and you can enter with one person. Please explain your reasoning here with salvage, with multiple instances of the same zone.

[Twille]

solo assault would be fantastic. i sincerely hope they re-think that decision.

[Samosa]

solo assault would be fantastic. i sincerely hope they re-think that decision.

Same here, you aren't always able to find another two people sometimes to do Assualt/Salvage, well in my case anyway, considering most NA players are asleep when i log on.

[Spiritreaver]

Okay . . . uh . . . limbus zones are not even pseudo-instanced and you can enter with one person. Please explain your reasoning here with salvage, with multiple instances of the same zone.

I don't even care for Salvage, but i think the quoted question is a valid one.

[Muras]

Okay . . . uh . . . limbus zones are not even pseudo-instanced and you can enter with one person. Please explain your reasoning here with salvage, with multiple instances of the same zone.I don't even care for Salvage, but i think the quoted question is a valid one.

Also, as many of you may remember when they added Neo-Nyzul, we had some forced 15-30 minute wait period between runs because they thought there'd be too much congestion, and then later removed it because it never happened. So if they can add features to fight congestion and later remove them because the congestion never took place... Why can't they remove the 3 person limitation, and re-implement it if the congestion really does take place? Let's not forget that there's also 4 Salvage zones in comparison to one zone for Nyzul, which helps spread people out a bit more.

I wanna say to the devs that even if they do remove the limit (As they should) and they get congestion, they should wait a month or two before deciding to do something about it because it's obviously expected that the event will die down in time.

And besides, aren't assault tags something that fight congestion too? And you can only do Salvage once a day? And there's fact that you can't do both Salvage and Neo-Nyzul (Since you don't get Assault points) that also spreads people out too. The devs are seriously overestimating things here...

[Edyth]

In regards to reducing the number of required players for entry, I believe a similar response was made in the past about assault, but we do not have any plans of lowering the requirement due to concerns that instances will be filled faster causing congestion.

So, no Neo-Dynamis makeover for Salvage? Why do we have to reserve the zones anyway? The revamp required to make Dynamis non-reservable was exponentially more complicated than making the Salvage zones into more "normal" areas would be. Just make monsters respawn in 5 minutes, modify progression/NM spawning a little, and voila. Salvage monsters are already arranged in EXP-camp style groups, unlike in Dynamis.

And unless somehow Salvage becomes the new Abyssea or Voidwatch, or at least the new Dynamis, this update will probably increase Alexandrite prices again because it's still too ****ing inaccessible, and the people doing it will cash in on the fact that yet another possible ray of hope for alexandrite has proven false. Anyone waiting for the Salvage revamp will be screwed and there'll be nothing to hold out for, and prices will soar again.

[Zhronne]

Limbus like? So that means we'll receive slightly updated version of the current gear sets (which will be equippable by the same jobs) and 5 new sets with completely different stats and equippable by new jobs as well.
I wonder why bother with the second set.

If it were me I would have just increased the stats of the old sets and maybe added something more, and made the set effect work like the ones we've seen the last years (so incresed set bonus potency the more set pieces you have).
I see no reason not to include the new jobs in the lv99 updated versions, I still don't understand why they did that with Limbus gear.

[MarkovChain]

I just hope the new Salvage is done enough to make Alex prices more reasonable with the high number needed so that they actually exist.

You must be new to the game. Demand is going to increase and price will increase.

[MarkovChain]

So, no Neo-Dynamis makeover for Salvage? Why do we have to reserve the zones anyway? The revamp required to make Dynamis non-reservable was exponentially more complicated than making the Salvage zones into more "normal" areas would be. Just make monsters respawn in 5 minutes, modify progression/NM spawning a little, and voila. Salvage monsters are already arranged in EXP-camp style groups, unlike in Dynamis.

And unless somehow Salvage becomes the new Abyssea or Voidwatch, or at least the new Dynamis, this update will probably increase Alexandrite prices again because it's still too ****ing inaccessible, and the people doing it will cash in on the fact that yet another possible ray of hope for alexandrite has proven false. Anyone waiting for the Salvage revamp will be screwed and there'll be nothing to hold out for, and prices will soar again.

They can't transform salvage into a farming zone because the goal is the gear. In dynamis the gear is garbage and the only thing worth doing is farming coins or marrows. From camate's post we can conclude that salvage gear is going to be good unlike limbus (free entry VS 3-man requirement, which will probably be too low as is for level 99 content). You can see it the same as voidwatch. It's impossible to solo farm your metal plates but the things are widely available in bazars. If the gear is good enough the supply will be there and there will be more balance among end game weapons. Everyone wins.

[Demon6324236]

You must be new to the game. Demand is going to increase and price will increase.

We could always be hopeful that most people will be to lazy to do everything else leaving demand lower... its not going to happen.. but we could hope.

[Demon6324236]

Well 1 way to open it would be have pop items drop off of all enemys in the area that pop the NMs which gear drop from. That way everyone can fight the NMs and get gear still like with the Arch-NMs for Dyna. Perfectly honest I have no idea though because I never really did Salvage, always seemed more annoying than it was worth to me, so this might fit nothing of what Salvage is/was and could be completely stupid nonsense.

[Damane]

They can't transform salvage into a farming zone because the goal is the gear. In dynamis the gear is garbage and the only thing worth doing is farming coins or marrows. From camate's post we can conclude that salvage gear is going to be good unlike limbus (free entry VS 3-man requirement, which will probably be too low as is for level 99 content). You can see it the same as voidwatch. It's impossible to solo farm your metal plates but the things are widely available in bazars. If the gear is good enough the supply will be there and there will be more balance among end game weapons. Everyone wins.

because that was sooo much the case with odin v2 that requires at least 6 people to enter? odin v2 gear is garbage too ¬.¬ cecxept for 1 weapon

[deces]

Greetings!

Similar to how we added jobs that previously could not wear Homam/Nashira to the new Murzim and Shedir equipment available via the new higher-tier Limbus areas, the development team is planning to add dancer, scholar, and other jobs to the new Salvage equipment, but not to the currently existing Salvage gear.


In regards to reducing the number of required players for entry, I believe a similar response was made in the past about assault, but we do not have any plans of lowering the requirement due to concerns that instances will be filled faster causing congestion.
Just think back in time when we had twice as many servers and about the same amount of endgame players to do events on... keep on not listing to us SE, you created this so called problem..

[FrankReynolds]

In regards to reducing the number of required players for entry, I believe a similar response was made in the past about assault, but we do not have any plans of lowering the requirement due to concerns that instances will be filled faster causing congestion.

I could have misread something, but I'm pretty sure they just posted something in the JP thread saying they would lower the requirements.

[Camate]

Greetings!

The higher tier Salvage expansion is currently under-development as we speak and I’d like to share the basic concept of what we will be adding.

Higher Tier Expansion

High tier expansions will be added for each of the four areas (Arrapago Remnants, Silver Sea Remnants, Zhayolm Remnants, Bhaflau Remnants)
Fundamental concept is the same as the original Salvage, but will be targeting level 99 characters
Will contain strategy elements such as route selection and NM spawning conditions


Changes to the Pathos of Alzadaal

After considering that these imbued items clutter inventory, and the time spent lotting and distributing them made it difficult to focus on strategy, we will be changing the system so that instead of using items to unlock limitations, they will randomly be removed when defeating monsters.

While it will no longer be possible to select the player you wish to unlock, we are planning to make adjustments so that the effects removed by defeating monsters will be more than enough to go around.

Up to 18 players can participate, but we are envisioning a difficulty level that can be cleared with around 6 players. Additionally, due to the change in the system, the higher tier focus will be on relieving the entry-level difficulty associated with doing Salvage, while providing content and rewards for level 99 characters.

Reward wise we will be preparing two kinds of equipment: revamped versions of the previously existing Salvage gear and new equipment.

Finally, as shown on the road map we will be adding this to the Test Server around September and plan on spending time for balancing/adjustments. With that said, actual implementation is still a bit off, but we are working our best so you can all try it out on the Test Server.

We will be releasing more specific information around the timing of Test Server implementation, so hang in there a bit and look forward to it!

[Kitkat]

There anyway to make it so this will skip over individuals the either won't benefit from the pathos or already has it removed? While it will free up inventory I can see this as being a bit more of a strategy killer as you'd have to have the mages engage and kill a mob to get a pathos unlocked (unless I'm misreading this). You're talking about jobs that have absolutely no h2h skill and only means of being profecient in a type of damage is already locked (their magic) where as with cells you'd have the melee do kills for you to get the cells passed to these individuals.

If possible, can you clarify how this pathos unlock system is working? Is it randomly unlocking anyone in the zone or is it randomly unlocking only those who perform a killing blow? By "skipping over individuals who won't benifit" I mean melee jobs that have no main/sub use of magic skill at all (thus this shouldn't be locked in the first place or be required to be unlocked).

[Insaniac]

This also worries me. Not having to worry about distributing cells will be great but not being able to decide who gets what and when could be a huge pain. If my mage doesn't get magic and my non-mnk DD doesn't get weapons or abilities out of the gate problems will arise. I would suggest leaving the initial chest as it is. With cells that can be distributed.

[Muse]

Changes to the Pathos of Alzadaal

After considering that these imbued items clutter inventory, and the time spent lotting and distributing them made it difficult to focus on strategy, we will be changing the system so that instead of using items to unlock limitations, they will randomly be removed when defeating monsters.

While it will no longer be possible to select the player you wish to unlock, we are planning to make adjustments so that the effects removed by defeating monsters will be more than enough to go around.


Could this be further explained?

Because as it stands it sounds more hurtful then helpful... Especially as, stated by others already, it means mages may not get magic/MP and DD's weapons/HP when they should. This also sounds like it'll make Salvage harder, and make making Mythics even harder in the long run.

Also, will this new system of not needing items to unlock pathos effect just the new Salvage areas or both of them?

If both of them... I weep for the future of Salvage.

Anybody want to do some some full unlock frogs when you can't get 3 people unlocked?

[Kitkat]

Could this be further explained?

Because as it stands it sounds more hurtful then helpful... Especially as, stated by others already, it means mages may not get magic/MP and DD's weapons/HP when they should. This also sounds like it'll make Salvage harder, and make making Mythics even harder in the long run.

Also, will this new system of not needing items to unlock pathos effect just the new Salvage areas or both of them?

If both of them... I weep for the future of Salvage.

Anybody want to do some some full unlock frogs when you can't get 3 people unlocked?

Have to agree with this, especially considering the old system worked this way requiring that people strategize to unlock specific pathos on specific players only because the zone required it. So saying that cells hurts strategy but somehow a randomly pathos unlock system doesn't is kinda double standard given the past of Salvage requirements don't you think?

[Nala]

Imagine that the system would not require mages to be meleeing to unlock, sounds to me like kill x mob and random person in alli gets pathos unlocked.

Perhaps they will set up a method to prioritize pathos ex: mp and magic to mages, JA and Weapons to melee. That said as explained it does seem rather half baked.

I know my level of pessimism concerning the dev bros getting it right has gotten pretty high but I'm not willing to bet they will release the neo pathos system that incomplete... (oh dear god must find real wood to knock on now...)

[Karbuncle]

Well, When its announced on the Test server, Someone hit me up, I'll go do a Run or two. If we get through 6-7 Mobs and our mage doesn't have magic yet, We can tell them they're dumb and they should feel bad.

Until then, PESSIMISTS, ASSEMBLE

[Reiterpallasch]

My hope for the system:



Mobs that dropped specific cells in the past, will now unlock pathos upon defeat instead.



The pathos will unlock for all party/ally members.


My expectation:



All mobs will have a ~10% chance at unlocking any random pathos for any random party/ally member.



The system won't be smart enough to understand that you already have a particular pathos unlocked and will instead try to give DD their MP 20 times in a row before giving them weapons.

[Raka]

Changes to the Pathos of Alzadaal

After considering that these imbued items clutter inventory, and the time spent lotting and distributing them made it difficult to focus on strategy, we will be changing the system so that instead of using items to unlock limitations, they will randomly be removed when defeating monsters.

While it will no longer be possible to select the player you wish to unlock, we are planning to make adjustments so that the effects removed by defeating monsters will be more than enough to go around.

You, good sir have made my day! Thank you!

[MarkovChain]

Time to level monk again gimplets >_>. If they don't leave an initial chest with ruseful pathos it's going to be a pain without H2H.

[Miloki]

While it will no longer be possible to select the player you wish to unlock, we are planning to make adjustments so that the effects removed by defeating monsters will be more than enough to go around.

hmm....then why even keep it? I imagine we will clear a type of mob on a certain floor and get a specific type of pathos unlocked..but like mentioned previously, random unlocks would force us to kill until we get the right player the right unlocks. But how much time will we lose with unlucky random unlocks. HP and weapon locked DDs while mages have no magic but full gear? As lame as the old "use-cell-item-to-unlock" method was...random in FFXI is almost always a step back.

The more random FFXI gets, the less strategy matters. We all had Salvage down. You go after the cells you need, you get the number of drops you need and you move on. Now we really have to /pray to the Random Gods to not give the SCH HP unlock before the MNK and before we run outta mobs?

Here's my 2 cents. Just put the Pathos unlocks into a perma treasure box in a few rooms of the floor. As we kill mobs you "fill" the box with that mobs specific unlock. For example, After you kill 10 lizards or w/e, 3-4 magic pathos unlocks pop into the box and the people who need can grab and go. We could know that the unlocks have landed with a simple message in the chat stating a temp item dropped. If you need more, go kill more, or move to the next mob type and unlock something else. No inventory clogging items, no need to bazaar, no one needs to pass or lot...and no random.

[Tile]

Will people that want the higher lvl gear need the old sets is all im worried about. Is this going to be like Neo Limbus or Neo Nyzul. Are you going to be rewarding people that spent time to get all their pieces and made the old sets, or you just giving new gear to everyone even if they never went before.

I was alittle upset when I found out I wasted time when I went out of my way to get the old sets before Nyzul got updated.

[Demon6324236]

Time to level monk again gimplets everyone >_>. If they don't leave an initial chest with ruseful pathos it's going to be a pain without H2H.

Agreed, until we know more cant say for certain but this already seems like its going badly.

[SpankWustler]

PESSIMISTS, ASSEMBLE

The pathos-unlocking system will be so bitterly random that some people will have to put together mage-melee sets complete with satchels full of hi-potions and varied elixirs just to be useful for the first half-hour of each Salvage run.

Also, you have cancer. I have cancer. We all have cancer.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This is good, but you need to do it the main jobs priority is high on the list of options, otherwise this could go badly.

How it should work (similar to anyway):

WAR - Weapon > JA > Armour
WHM - Magic > JA
RDM - Magic > Weapon

How we don't want it:

WAR - Magic > MP > HP
WHM - Weapon > HP > Weaponskills
RDM - HP > JA > Armour

[Kristal]

This also worries me. Not having to worry about distributing cells will be great but not being able to decide who gets what and when could be a huge pain. If my mage doesn't get magic and my non-mnk DD doesn't get weapons or abilities out of the gate problems will arise. I would suggest leaving the initial chest as it is. With cells that can be distributed.

First floor mobs would be squishy, and if each one drops multiple unlocks, it shouldn't take long to unlock key unlocks on all members. If unlocks are automatic but random, they can check for existing unlocks and skip that person.

I'm more worried about the old salvage. Completing those armor pieces was a biatch, took ages and expensive to boot. Unlike nyzul, which dropped ready-to-go armor so you just had to get lucky. And unlike nyzul, salvage doesn't have mythic weapons that require reentry. So I'm hoping that neosalvage requires the old armor, perhaps as an upgrade.

[Kristal]

This is good, but you need to do it the main jobs priority is high on the list of options, otherwise this could go badly.

How it should work (similar to anyway):

WAR - Weapon > JA > Armour
WHM - Magic > JA
RDM - Magic > Weapon

How we don't want it:

WAR - Magic > MP > HP
WHM - Weapon > HP > Weaponskills
RDM - HP > JA > Armour

PUP - ability > ranged > magic

[Cymmina]

Changes to the Pathos of Alzadaal

After considering that these imbued items clutter inventory, and the time spent lotting and distributing them made it difficult to focus on strategy, we will be changing the system so that instead of using items to unlock limitations, they will randomly be removed when defeating monsters.

While it will no longer be possible to select the player you wish to unlock, we are planning to make adjustments so that the effects removed by defeating monsters will be more than enough to go around.

This sounds terrible, bordering on the worst thing I can think of. There are NMs that depend on specific Pathos being active or removed from specific numbers of party members. I'm not looking forward to missing out on one of the Porrogo Madames because the unlocks got randomly distributed to party members, instead of the 3 designated members (groups typically only have 3 people these days anyway, but we'll occasionally have an extra who wants to go because he needs something).

Also not looking forward to having nothing unlocked after all of the mobs that can drop that unlock have been defeated.

If it's an atma/abyssite style unlock where if you get the unlock, the whole party gets the unlock, then it won't be so bad. But if it's 1 person randomly gets it with the possibility of no one getting it at all, then this is going to be as hated as the whole Voidwatch loot pool/personal box design.


The more random FFXI gets, the less strategy matters. We all had Salvage down. You go after the cells you need, you get the number of drops you need and you move on. Now we really have to /pray to the Random Gods to not give the SCH HP unlock before the MNK and before we run outta mobs?

I know this isn't obvious to most people, but SCH can't use Sublimation without the HP unlock. You'll be better off taking RDM if the system is as random as everyone is assuming it will be.

[VoiceMemo]

Changes to the Pathos of Alzadaal

After considering that these imbued items clutter inventory, and the time spent lotting and distributing them made it difficult to focus on strategy, we will be changing the system so that instead of using items to unlock limitations, they will randomly be removed when defeating monsters.

While it will no longer be possible to select the player you wish to unlock, we are planning to make adjustments so that the effects removed by defeating monsters will be more than enough to go around.



I completely disagree with this. You would be changing strategy to luck. I've done salvage since it came out and by now I can call out cells very easily. That is strategy in itself. If you change it that way it seems more like luck over strategy. It will also alienate jobs even more. As it stands now it is possible to take other DD than MNK because they can get weapons unlocked at a later time. If it goes in random and impossible to predict who will get unlocked, it pretty much screams MNK/PUP only, those with native H2H skill.

I would rather have cells, that take strategy to decide who would unlock first than luck of who gets unlocked. NOT having to rely on gear but skill of a players knowledge of jobs/mp management/how to pull without links is what made salvage challenging. Yes gear helps BUT to be limited by what gear we could use and make the best out of the situation shows the teamwork and the skill of players.

I find this akin to Nyzul V2, that it's more about luck than skill, luck of how many floors you warp up. Look at how Nyzul V2 alienates jobs to only the highest dd and SCHs.

Please reconsider it being like current salvage where we the player can decide who to unlock and NOT the game deciding based on random number generation.

[Demon6324236]

An easy way to fix it is just make the Cells rare, then they cant clog you nearly as easily. Also if you could, make it so where if someone has the pathos removed that the cell goes with then it can not normally fall to said person, only if they lot it.

[Vivivivi]

If the drop rate remains the same as the old cells, then I completely love and support this-

So often when I did salvage it wasn't necessarily that we didn't get enough of a particular cell to unlock the right abilities for everyone, but more so that people tossed cells they didn't need and/or we killed mobs so fast that stuff fell to the floor.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

An easy way to fix it is just make the Cells rare, then they cant clog you nearly as easily. Also if you could, make it so where if someone has the pathos removed that the cell goes with then it can not normally fall to said person, only if they lot it.

It still takes 10+ spaces. Short of making them like the TEMP items (where they are separate from inventory), it wont work.

[saevel]

REALLY depends on how they implement it. If it's kill 1 mob and there is a high chance that everyone gets that pathos unlocked, then it's great. If it's kill 1 mob and someone might get a random pathos unlocked, then it's beyond horrible.

The first encourages groups to focus on getting gear, the second encourages people to bring as few as possible to ensure the least number of people to divide random pathos unlocks on.

Camate can we get clarification? If it's randomly one member then that is absolutely beyond horrible and will result in players not getting key pathos's removed.

[Camate]

Good morning!

As there are quite a few questions in regards to how the new unlocking system will work, I’d like to explain about it just a bit more.

Unlocking System Changes

As mentioned in my previous post, the first objective of this is to relieve the stress related to worrying about cells so that everyone can enjoy this content more. This is why we are only removing the aspect where you need to use items to unlock limitations, but the process of defeating monsters in order to remove the limitations will not change.

The trends for unlocking by each area and each monster will carry over, so think of it as the same flow as in the past when it comes to the order of defeating monsters and all the tricks to unlock Pathos efficiently.

Who Will Be Unlocked

I think the biggest concern at the moment is that by unlocking taking place at random, it will no longer be possible to formulate strategies around which jobs and players get unlocked first. The original Salvage had cases where certain areas would only yield a certain amount of cells, or if cells were not obtained at the right moment you would have to wait a while to get them again, making it so each cell was carefully used.

For the higher tier expansion, the direction will be changing quite a bit, and as long as you don’t have severely bad luck, we would like to make it so that it will be possible to fully unlock all limitations. With that said, we will be making adjustments to the number of monsters and the unlocking rate so that the pace of unlocking is not so slow that it makes it not possible to get stuff done.

*We are currently looking into a similar treasure chest that appears upon entry like the original Salvage, and we are thinking to make it so players can choose who will be unlocked.

[Demon6324236]

That luck has anything to do with what was once a strategic part of this event is what saddens me Camate. I like strategy more than luck. ;;

[Kalilla]

I like the idea of having the treasure chest at the start. It ensures that the base requirements are fulfilled to complete the run while the new system takes over.

[Kalilla]

Also, I have to do this.


...and as long as you don’t have severely bad luck...
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57524/ffxi/images/e/e0/Skirmish_Pephredo.jpg

:|

[Byrth]

The starting chest, or having a minor amount of control over the cells you get, dramatically improved the original Salvage and made it far more accessible. I really hope that you do the same thing with this.

[Cowardlybabooon]

I think the luck he was referring to could be like constant dying or dcing

[Kari]

Also, I have to do this.


http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57524/ffxi/images/e/e0/Skirmish_Pephredo.jpg

:|

http://www.goradio.com/polopoly_fs/1.8822!/image/oprahs-bees.gif

[Chamaan]

Gotta say, I'm really not looking forward to 18 people fighting over the 1 35 NeoUsukane piece that drops every 15 runs. Really hope this is ACTUALLY 6-man friendly.

[Kari]

Gotta say, I'm really not looking forward to 18 people fighting over the 1 35 NeoUsukane piece that drops every 15 runs. Really hope this is ACTUALLY 6-man friendly.

This is just a guess, but I'm assuming 6 people will be the norm for this, where 3-5 would be doable with certain job setups and good gear.

[Ophannus]

Or even better, could be a KI that you trade to the dude in exchange for a piece of choice like Nyzul.

[Xenshi]

Why not just keep the entry chest the same as it is now? :/ That way you know 100% that your healer will be able to heal and that your DDs will be able to melee without being a monk main.

[Xilk]

Gotta say, I'm really not looking forward to 18 people fighting over the 1 35 NeoUsukane piece that drops every 15 runs. Really hope this is ACTUALLY 6-man friendly.

just make sure its whoever got the killshot for the right bee. Then there won't be an argument.

[Tile]

think you should leave the chest have it were each person gets to choose 2 things to get removed. so if you a mage just run up and select magic and etc. have the chest have a maxx number on it each time a person removes something number goes down. each person has a chance to remove something but the group only gets like 12 choices.

[Trumpy]

isnt there a run where u need like 1-2 fully unlocked people to go further past a certain door? I hope they put enuf unlockin mobs before that door so that if u have 6 people or more u dont get screwed out of it

[MarkovChain]

All this seems WAY too complicated (especially with the initial chest). Just stick to putting the "rare" flags on cells, this way our invo is not crowded. Another system I thought of was letting mobs drop a chest with unlocking KI inside.

[Demon6324236]

Or even better, could be a KI that you trade to the dude in exchange for a piece of choice like Nyzul.

Thats the way to do smart content.

[Aramaic]

Zhaylom you need 3 unlocked so ya frog nightmares incoming

[Aramaic]

I did however think it was funny their first statement said they were removing cells because it made strategizing too hard, than second statement said they know making it random will ruin strategies.

[SpankWustler]

as long as you don’t have severely bad luck

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/97/ptcsigsmall.jpg

[Tamarsamar]

Somebody needs to sig Camate's "as long as you don't have severely bad luck," since severely bad luck basically describes half this game (as others have wittily described).

In all seriousness, the devs need to look at why Trials of the Magians (progressively working towards a sure thing) were more popular than Voidwatch (huge luck of the draw where even if the stupidly rare item dropped, it wouldn't always go to somebody who wanted it), and think long and hard about this decision.

Also, I'm still flipping that table if the improved Morrigan's Set doesn't have improved melee stats. We all saw the butchering you did to the Goliard Saio and Cuffs!

[Samosa]

Instead of KI's what would be the chance of make them temp items? That way you don't have to worry about filling up your inventory and you can still dole them out to those who need them first.

[Keyln]

I would like to highlight one thing for you naysayers.


With that said, we will be making adjustments to the number of monsters and the unlocking rate so that the pace of unlocking is not so slow that it makes it not possible to get stuff done.

[FrankReynolds]

I would like to highlight one thing for you naysayers.

Same people who claimed Mythics would be easier than relics.

[Reiterpallasch]

Why they can't just make the cells rare or temp items is beyond me.

The random number generator isn't random, and therefore some people will have a great time with the new system, whereas the experience will be ruined overall for others (like VW).

[Aramaic]

Well the biggest problem is contrary to what devs are saying salvage once the chest at start was added became very easy to manage and setup strategies specific to gear type you were after. Cells were never a problem for my group once we had systems in place. The only people i can see complaining about this are groups who had poor cell distribution or peeps that afk'ed screwed them a lot.

[MarkovChain]

Instead of KI's what would be the chance of make them temp items? That way you don't have to worry about filling up your inventory and you can still dole them out to those who need them first.

Good idea, and you could also only allow one cell of each type. The initial chest could be like the ones in abyssea where you pick temps or KI.

This would not be possible for normal salvage, because some NMs/strat require trading cells to a ??? but that's definitely marginal.

[hiko]

All this seems WAY too complicated (especially with the initial chest). Just stick to putting the "rare" flags on cells, this way our invo is not crowded. Another system I thought of was letting mobs drop a chest with unlocking KI inside.
imo checking coffer for ki is worst than loting/passing


Instead of KI's what would be the chance of make them temp items? That way you don't have to worry about filling up your inventory and you can still dole them out to those who need them first.
because they can't put temps in treasure pool

[Reiterpallasch]

because they can't put temps in treasure pool
I guess you've never had someone open a chest or kill a mob and have you acquire a temp item from it then huh?

[hiko]

I guess you've never had someone open a chest or kill a mob and have you acquire a temp item from it then huh?

I never had someone open chest/kill mob and have me acquire the temp item i need when other guy in pt got the another item he need and 3rd people got the 3rd item (without everybody checking the coffer that is imo worst than lot/passing)

[VoiceMemo]

I would like to also point out that IF this change occurs that control over how is unlocked is TOTALLY placed on luck.

Here is my reasoning:
At the moment cells drop from mobs, with Treasure Hunter we at least can influence the drop rate of cells, granted yes we can't control which cells drop at time at least was can affect it. Also with the way current salvage is we can decide how to best use of the cells. In both cases the choice is up to the player, who cells go to and if to include TH to help improve chances of cell drop.

If it's changed to randomly unlock a person in party depending on what mob is killed. SE is taking all control over this issue, there is currently NO way to affect a luck based decision decided from SE, UNLESS some type of Proc !! process is being added, which many of the playerbase has spoken against adding to salvage.

I see way less skill in turning unlocks based on luck. SE are you trying to make the game really dumbed down? For me salvage was the best balance of luck and skill(MINUS stingy ramparts, where it's luck to see the NM then even with TH luck to get the drop, Luck upon Luck is the worst) If it's going to be luck based, the drops better have a high drop rate that would be the balance point if we have to rely on luck to unlock gear.

All that is needed for salvage to be popular again is increase alex drops, new gear, and ways to upgrade existing salvage gear to the point that it's worth it again. You don't need to totally revamp the system SE. The current system works and is fair in terms of skill/luck. The new system would shift the balance to mostly luck, which I'm pretty sure most of the playerbase would agree we do not want.

I end with: SKILL > LUCK!.

[Demon6324236]

Skill > Luck but SE doesn't do that with events anymore, you should have learned that from the last few. Its all about luck now, sadly they have done it again, by ripping out an old strategic part of an event and replacing it with luck mechs like we always wanted...

[cadant]

As long as the luck factor is not as hardcore as neo-nyzul and requires the use of some kind of cheating, I don't mind. Then again maybe that's what they want so they can finally start banning people since they obviously don't care about all the people doing it in nyzul.

Assuming it's possible to finish a run with a skilled group nearly every time barring extreme bad luck, like old salvage back at 75 cap, I can deal with everything else. I never minded the crappy drop rates because at least we were able to kill the mobs

[Aramaic]

The only runs I ever hated that were considered luck based was Bhaflau. Was terrible to do every floor and get no NM on any rampart. That aside salvage worked well, strategies were formed for how each run could be accomplished and the system as a whole is understood. To change that now to all luck based and non-severe bad luck is laughing in the face of the community at this point.

[Aramaic]

One more thing I want to point out. You didn't completely revamp neo-nyzul, you adjusted the data collection so you have to go up to 100 in one felt swoop. Aside from that all you did was adjust mob levels and put new nm's in. For limbus you made new boss fights but you didnt change how the system worked. Why would you now revamp a working system when you really didn't do a full revamp to other said events of like kind.

[Minikom]

Up to 18 players can participate, but we are envisioning a difficulty level that can be cleared with around 6 players.

After read this... just hope if you go with 6 man you dont need embrava and PD to win this, 18 ppl is a lot for salvage. 6 is perfect and 3 is ideal, salvaged is/used to be a event for 3-6 ppl making this 18 just sound terrible (just my thoughts)

[Camiie]

as long as you don’t have severely bad luck,

I double-dog dare the dev team to come up with a meaningful endgame event that doesn't rely on this.

[Zhronne]

I'm very worried about Camate's announcement.
First of all are we talking about a complete Salvage revamp? I.e. "old style" salvage won't be available anymore?
Or are we talking about ADDITIONAL Salvage zones?
It does make a difference.

Second: I'm a huge Salvage lover, but I recognize it's always been tricky/annoying to handle cells assignments and calling people. Despite how annoying it may have been to handle this, I think it was PART of what was making Salvage so fun.
It gave you the power to decide, or gave you the illusion of being ale to have a certain degree of control over what was happening in a game controlled by random numbers generatos.
Similar to what yellow, red and blue !! procs did in Abyssea. Items could still not drop, but you were given the chance to get a slight control over that too.
Making everything random to solve the issue of the original system being "frustrating" is a path that risks making things only even more frustrating and not solving anything at all.
Your party needs magic unlocked so that the WHM can heal you? But no, your DNC gets magic unlocked instead.
And so you keep killing random monsters for ages, until the random number generators unlocked everything you needed to unlock.
I see this as way more frustrating.
With the cells system you were of course relying on the random factor when it comes to drops. But you were given a certain degree of "control" over it: you could choose which cells to target to, you chould choose who to give them to.
That matters A LOT into making the system much less frustrating, imho.

On the other hand, making so the new system is "too easy" and each mob unlocks 3-4 random things on a random players is TOO MUCH.
In such a scenario you could wonder why even having things locked at start if everything is unlocked within a few kills?
What made Salvage so different, so unique, so fantastic is the lock system, the strategies you had to develop around that, the choices your group was forced to make.
In my opinion it's what made it different, fun, and challenging.
If you remove this aspect or make it trivial, Salvage won't be particularly different from any other event already in-game, aside from the fact it would drop different items of course.

[Trisscar]

*Snip*

Knowing Square, the new gear and upgraded Salvage armors aren't going to be significantly better than what Salvage already has available. However you have a tendency to dramatically increase the difficulty for minor improvement.

Since you haven't learned yet, let me spell it out for you: Don't do that.

How hard is it for you to understand that?

[Okipuit]

I have some more information to share about the content of the Salvage higher-tier expansion.


After warping to the next floor, a lamp will be placed for voluntary Pathos unlocking
We will be making it possible so that each player can check the lamp and select a status to be unlocked that was unlocked in the floors prior. (In order to use the lamp, certain conditions must be fulfilled on the previous floor; however, we are planning to make the conditions easy to accomplish.)

The plan is not to make this the main focus of unlocking, but it is an alternative method if the necessary unlocks did not occur while defeating monsters and the aim is to secure a method for voluntary unlocking.


Unlocking Pathos as an element of strategy
The strategy and knowledge for which routes to take and which monsters to defeat in order to unlock statuses will be necessary just like they were for the existing Salvage content. While only the order will be random, the only difference is in the amount of monsters that are necessary to defeat, and we are planning to have a good amount of room to make use of the knowledge gained from the existing Salvage.


Jobs that can equip the rewards
Dancer and scholar cannot equip the rewards from the existing Salvage content. While this will not change, the revamped Salvage equipment as well as the new equipment will have dancer and scholar added to the list of jobs that can equip them. We will also be making adjustments so that the stats are compatible.



I think the easiest way to see how this content has changed would be to try it out first-hand on the Test Server and we are working hard to implement this. However, it seems like it is going to take some more time, so hang in there just a bit more.

[Khiinroye]

Jobs that can equip the rewards
Dancer and scholar cannot equip the rewards from the existing Salvage content. While this will not change, the revamped Salvage equipment as well as the new equipment will have dancer and scholar added to the list of jobs that can equip them. We will also be making adjustments so that the stats are compatible.


What about Geomancer and Rune Knight? While those are not in the game, the devs obviously know about the workings of those jobs, as far as what is intended for them to do and what stats are useful for them. Since the enhanced salvage gear is still in the works, it would make sense to ensure that the upcoming jobs aren't left out on gear that is released in the period that we're waiting for the new expansion.

Obviously this doesn't only apply to salvage gear, but to all gear that is currently in development.

[Ophannus]

Same deal with not having any WOTG jobs added to Homam/Nashira or TOAU jobs added to abjuration gear(though crimson is the only exception I think)

[Monchat]

What about Geomancer and Rune Knight?

They will belong to the "lolJob" category until Adoulin bring end game gear, which will certainly not be at start of the expansion.

[Sargent]

Same deal with not having any WOTG jobs added to Homam/Nashira or TOAU jobs added to abjuration gear(though crimson is the only exception I think)

Difference being the upgraded salvage gear is available to DNC/SCH. The upgraded Limbus gear was not. This puzzles me.

[Kitkat]

I have some more information to share about the content of the Salvage higher-tier expansion.


After warping to the next floor, a lamp will be placed for voluntary Pathos unlocking
We will be making it possible so that each player can check the lamp and select a status to be unlocked that was unlocked in the floors prior. (In order to use the lamp, certain conditions must be fulfilled on the previous floor; however, we are planning to make the conditions easy to accomplish.)

The plan is not to make this the main focus of unlocking, but it is an alternative method if the necessary unlocks did not occur while defeating monsters and the aim is to secure a method for voluntary unlocking.


Unlocking Pathos as an element of strategy
The strategy and knowledge for which routes to take and which monsters to defeat in order to unlock statuses will be necessary just like they were for the existing Salvage content. While only the order will be random, the only difference is in the amount of monsters that are necessary to defeat, and we are planning to have a good amount of room to make use of the knowledge gained from the existing Salvage.


Jobs that can equip the rewards
Dancer and scholar cannot equip the rewards from the existing Salvage content. While this will not change, the revamped Salvage equipment as well as the new equipment will have dancer and scholar added to the list of jobs that can equip them. We will also be making adjustments so that the stats are compatible.



I think the easiest way to see how this content has changed would be to try it out first-hand on the Test Server and we are working hard to implement this. However, it seems like it is going to take some more time, so hang in there just a bit more.

Wait a minute...maybe I'm misinterpreting, this but does this mean we have to unlock and re-unlock pathos each floor we go up?

[Muse]

Wait a minute...maybe I'm misinterpreting, this but does this mean we have to unlock and re-unlock pathos each floor we go up?

What I'm hearing is that after meeting a certain requirement.. Once you arrive on the next floor there's a lamp there and you freely get to choose a pathos to be unlocked that could have been unlocked on the floor prior...

For instance: If there were Magic and JA cells on the floor 1, Then on Floor 2 you can unlock Magic or JA via the lamp. This is of course assuming you met the requirement to use this lamp.




The plan is not to make this the main focus of unlocking, but it is an alternative method if the necessary unlocks did not occur while defeating monsters and the aim is to secure a method for voluntary unlocking.

In a timed event where you need to move as swift as possible, checking a lamp to unlock just eats up time. This is the same thing that happened in Neo-Nyzul and will lead to problems of it own I'm sure.


But I do however like this idea as it should help alleviate the random unlock problem slightly. This still won't help you out on the floor prior if your mage doesn't get their Magic pathos unlocked.




Unlocking Pathos as an element of strategy
The strategy and knowledge for which routes to take and which monsters to defeat in order to unlock statuses will be necessary just like they were for the existing Salvage content. While only the order will be random, the only difference is in the amount of monsters that are necessary to defeat, and we are planning to have a good amount of room to make use of the knowledge gained from the existing Salvage.

I don't understand this... How is something that is completely random a part of strategy? It's like saying I can win at a dice game by the strategy of rolling the dice at a 45° angle each time I toss them.

Random does not equal strategy.

Now to address the part I bolded in the above quote.

What this says, to me, is that we'll have to kill more monsters then needed to ensure that our groups get the proper pathos removed from the correct people. So during this time, our mages could be zombies and completely useless, or our DD's could be whiffing (re: attempting to use H2H) while trying to farm pathos unlocks.

My group has only had one or two problems with cells, but it's quickly sorted out and never hindered us as a group. If this new system is better or not... Only time can tell.




I think the easiest way to see how this content has changed would be to try it out first-hand on the Test Server and we are working hard to implement this. However, it seems like it is going to take some more time, so hang in there just a bit more.

I'd love to try this on the test server with my group but alas... It seems that half of them can't join, and I really like having my friends/group behind me as we know each other well now.

[Babekeke]

With the pathos being unlocked upon the defeat of a monster, will it mean that you must be within 'exp range' to have them unlocked?

[Kristal]

With the pathos being unlocked upon the defeat of a monster, will it mean that you must be within 'exp range' to have them unlocked?

I suspect exp range is not an issue. It would limit the tactical advantage of bringing a full alliance, because instead of spreading in multiple groups to tackle more mobs, everyone would have to keep bunched up together.

[Tile]

After warping to the next floor, a lamp will be placed for voluntary Pathos unlocking
We will be making it possible so that each player can check the lamp and select a status to be unlocked that was unlocked in the floors prior. (In order to use the lamp, certain conditions must be fulfilled on the previous floor; however, we are planning to make the conditions easy to accomplish.) how will the chest at the start be handled? will it be a lamp that lets you choose 2-3?

[Kristal]

Difference being the upgraded salvage gear is available to DNC/SCH. The upgraded Limbus gear was not. This puzzles me.

No, you got it wrong. Upgraded salvage gear will not be available to DNC/SCH, but another set of gear ALSO obtainable from salvage will have DNC/SCH.

Homam armor can be upgraded to Enif armor with an arch-omega piece, which has the same jobs as Homam, but the arch-omega piece can also be used to create Murzim armor. The same for Nashira armor.
Homam/Enif : THF / PLD / DRK / DRG / BLU
Murzim : THF / PLD / DRK / RNG / DRG / COR / PUP / DNC

Nashira/Adhara : WHM / BLM / RDM / SMN / BLU
Shedir : WHM / BLM / RDM / BRD / SMN / BLU / SCH

So DNC will not appear on Skadi +1 armor but will appear on Alt-Skadi +1 armor, while SCH will not appear on Morrigan +1 armor but will on Alt-Morrigan +1 armor.
Alt-salvage armors will probably have a slightly different job distribution, so stats will also be different like with neolimbus armor and alt-armor.

GEO and RNF might als appear on the alt-armors, since they know those jobs are going to be added, but I suspect they will not.

[Godofgods]

I have some more information to share about the content of the Salvage higher-tier expansion.

[list]
After warping to the next floor, a lamp will be placed for voluntary Pathos unlocking
We will be making it possible so that each player can check the lamp and select a status to be unlocked that was unlocked in the floors prior. (In order to use the lamp, certain conditions must be fulfilled on the previous floor; however, we are planning to make the conditions easy to accomplish.)

The plan is not to make this the main focus of unlocking, but it is an alternative method if the necessary unlocks did not occur while defeating monsters and the aim is to secure a method for voluntary unlocking.

Simply put: I love this!

[Sargent]

No, you got it wrong. Upgraded salvage gear will not be available to DNC/SCH, but another set of gear ALSO obtainable from salvage will have DNC/SCH.



Jobs that can equip the rewards
Dancer and scholar cannot equip the rewards from the existing Salvage content. While this will not change, the revamped Salvage equipment as well as the new equipment will have dancer and scholar added to the list of jobs that can equip them. We will also be making adjustments so that the stats are compatible.



It specifically says DNC/SCH will be able to use upgraded gear.

[Mirage]

because they can't put temps in treasure pool

Do we know this? Have they tried, and told us it couldn't be done, or is it just that they haven't tried doing it yet?

[Babekeke]

I suspect exp range is not an issue. It would limit the tactical advantage of bringing a full alliance, because instead of spreading in multiple groups to tackle more mobs, everyone would have to keep bunched up together.

My point exactly

[SpankWustler]

After warping to the next floor, a lamp will be placed for voluntary Pathos unlocking
We will be making it possible so that each player can check the lamp and select a status to be unlocked that was unlocked in the floors prior. (In order to use the lamp, certain conditions must be fulfilled on the previous floor; however, we are planning to make the conditions easy to accomplish.)

The plan is not to make this the main focus of unlocking, but it is an alternative method if the necessary unlocks did not occur while defeating monsters and the aim is to secure a method for voluntary unlocking.

This does a lot to help with my nightmares about total randomness.

Literal nightmares about bees flying off with my ability to cast magic while a spider pantomimes the animations for various mage job abilities. A rampart watches and laughter pours from the portal in its center.

They were pretty rough.

[Camate]

Greetings!

Since the last post made by Okipuit there have been some questions. We will check and see if we can get some information, but keep in mind they are still working on all the details.

In the meantime, I just wanted to share another quick bit of information about unlocking Pathos.

We are actually planning to make it so when a Pathos is removed, it is displayed in everyone’s chat logs. We will be addressing this for both unlocking by defeating monsters as well as when the lamp is used.

When players use cells it is shown in the chat log, but players who are far away cannot see it. We feel that this will be much better to confirm and share the status of unlocking.

[Vivivivi]

Excited :D Been doing a lot more salvage lately, and it's slowly becoming one of my more favorite events.

[Kitkat]

@Muse

Still, as you mentioned, even with the lamp option it sounds like more of a time sink than it is about strategy. Whole set up of current salvage is to get specific things unlocked as soon as you start via chest options. After that you get whatever else you need on the first floor before heading up to the next floor to continue unlocking, not talk to a lamp to unlock previously unlocked some of those pathos then re-unlock the remaining pathos you need again to complete x task just to do it all over on the next floor.

I'd rather they keep the current cell system over this if that is what they plan to do, or even the current progression of unlocking pathos as the cell system over unlocking certain slots...then re-unlocking each floor via lamp and random pass out.

Strategy to me is entering and popping a chest to get a small number of cells to unlock pathos. These then get sent to individuals that absolutely need them to ease the progression method while obtaining the random drop pathos for the rest (or at least min rest to complete next task). None of these should be locked again when going to next floor, but instead (like current system) you work on other pathos you need on top of the ones you already have unlocked.

[Muse]

@Kitkat

I think we've both reading what was said by Okipuit differently. I'm reading it as, once you unlock you're always unlocked. Changing floors does not cause your pathos to lock once more. The lamp is there for those people who didn't get a chance at pathos unlocked or the wrong ones on the floor prior.

I agree with you on the chest and cells. There was really no reason to take this out of salvage as most groups are fast enough to pass/lot the cells as directed to them. This is just SE putting their favorite "random/luck factor" into Neo-Salvage, and taking away what really was "Strategy" in normal Salvage.


On a positive note: We may be blowing this out of proportion at this time. This could be easier then we may know. But, as it sounds on paper... It doesn't sound good or like Salvage at all.

[Vyvian]

They aren't saying you will get relocked, they're saying the choices the lamp will give only includes a list of things it was possible to unlock on the previous floor.

Take Zhayolm Remnants as it is now. You can get Incus, Preacipitatio, Opacus and Duplicatus cells. The strategy used to be fighting the minimum number of mobs to get enough unlocks before going to the NE portal and going up.

Basically they're saying when you go to floor 2, the lamp will only offer to unlock those 4 and nothing else, because no other cells were obtainable on floor 1.

Sure using the lamp will take time, but if you got what you wanted, you can choose to ignore it too. Or, only 1 person needs to touch the lamp so everyone else moves on while the 1 person missing something grabs for a second.

[VoiceMemo]

Greetings!

In the meantime, I just wanted to share another quick bit of information about unlocking Pathos.

We are actually planning to make it so when a Pathos is removed, it is displayed in everyone’s chat logs. We will be addressing this for both unlocking by defeating monsters as well as when the lamp is used.

When players use cells it is shown in the chat log, but players who are far away cannot see it. We feel that this will be much better to confirm and share the status of unlocking.

While this is helpful, why is SE Dumbing down salvage so much. At the moment it takes a skilled leader to keep track of who is unlocked with what. I've always viewed salvage as one of those events where the more you did it the better you got. As teamwork with a party improved the longer you did it together, everyone would learn each others nuances, which increased the effectiveness of the team.

It was much like dynamis of OLD where the ones that succeeded are the ones that had the EXPERIENCE. I still say that SE, your replacing skill with luck just so that EVERYONE can do it. What happened to the stance that NOT all gear is meant to be obtainable by everyone. That some gear requires hard work and dedication to get, or insane luck. Please stop dumbing down the game and trying to clone it to be WoW. Your players are smarter than you think.

[Okipuit]

Greetings,

I have an announcement to make about the Salvage high-tier expansion that we will be adding to the Test Server.

During this week’s Test Server update, we will start off by only implementing Zhayolm Remnants.
(Same as before, the entrance will be the Guilded Gateway.)

At the current stage, adjustments for monster placement/strength, drop items, and pathos unlocking rate, have not been finalized. There is a possibility that we may change these elements moving forward. Also, we’ve made it so that notorious monsters that appear when completing certain requirements, do not spawn on the Test Server.

We would like to receive feedback focusing on the largest change from original Salvage, the pathos unlocking system.

To aid in your testing endeavors, we have setup the Test Server as stated below:

It will be possible to enter solo.
When checking the Guilded Gateway, you will receive a Remnants Permit, so it will be possible to participate without obtaining the key item in advance.
(Each member who wishes to participate will need to obtain the key item via the above method.)
There will be no cool-down time between entry.

[FrankReynolds]

Greetings,
To aid in your testing endeavors, we have setup the Test Server as stated below:

It will be possible to enter solo.
When checking the Guilded Gateway, you will receive a Remnants Permit, so it will be possible to participate without obtaining the key item in advance.
(Each member who wishes to participate will need to obtain the key item via the above method.)
There will be no cool-down time between entry.


You should make these adjustments on the live servers as well. Kthx.

[Sargent]

They should at the very least allow for solo entry if the server can handle it. There's no reason you should need to bring 2 people for content that is soloable (referring to old salvage).

[Plasticleg]

lets hope they have the same abysmal drop rates that made duping popular!
glad to see the devs don't listen.

[Quetzacoatl]

lets hope they have the same abysmal drop rates that made duping popular!
glad to see the devs don't listen.
Doubt it. They'll probably make them a tad higher than NQ Salvage. Voidwatch as it is has Pre-update Salvage drop rates anyway >_>

[Sapphires]

All i care about is if they made salvage cells stackable or not.
Trying to do this event keeping free space and constantly having to pass/toss cells annoys me to no end.

[MarkovChain]

You should make these adjustments on the live servers as well. Kthx.

No, thanks. We need events that you don't do solo, and we need events that don't take 18+... The problem if that if they make it easily accessible ( solo assault entry, solo salvage entry), there will be no pride getting the gear and the gear will suck. Also I hope synergy level 80 with high level crafting will be required for the new gear.

[Demon6324236]

Original Solo/Salvage should be allowed to go solo. The main reason why is because people already do this via the glitch where you log out as the leader starts the mission. Is there any reason to allow people to do this via exploit and not the other players just because SE thinks Mythics should be totally impossible to make?

[MarkovChain]

For mythic it's dumb to farm alexandrites on your one. It's better to spam marrows and then buy alex on different servers.

[Demon6324236]

Wait, your telling me to change servers to buy an item to make a weapon? What?

[MarkovChain]

Welcome to FFXI ? How do you think most of the myhtic are being done ?

[Demon6324236]

Umm~ I kinda doubt anyone is going to another server every few months to buy them. So far as I remember there is a limit how often you can server hop, like once a month or every 3 months. If you think thats how people make Mythics I think your mistaken... Seeing as so far as I know the person on this server who recently made a Mythic never server hopped he simply had his LS & Friends running Salvage & bought them.

[MarkovChain]

Lol nope, you don't have to server transfer your main char, you just have to send several mules with money on another server and then have them come back. If you have another account you can transfer the alex back as sson as they are bought. Doing this you just have to gather money first and then since there are 15 servers, farm only 2k alex per server : ~40 M per mules. This unless you want to really do 300 salvage runs ? With the server transfer method it cost you 2 transfers + 15 mules for a limited period of time (likely < 1 month) as well as 600M which is only 50 umbral marrows for instance. It's actually more clever to sell the marrows on other servers too.. you'll only need ~ 3 marrows per char. Yes it cost you more than a single char, but no noone can farm a myhtic solo, and noone is going to help you do ALL the alex farming/assault refarming/ token/ampula farming so you *need* to pay extra character anyway~. If salvage entry becomes possible solo, not much will change since you are unlikely to clear the 50 assault solo, or farm ampula etc solo.

[Demon6324236]

Well it sounds to me like your saying supply would be a massive issue and thats why you would use other servers, if this were the case then solo entry would allow alot more people to go in and farm it for money. As it stands not everyone has 2 friends to come let them in salvage at a whim so they can get money, nor does everyone have the power to triplebox. If you had to have 3 people to enter Dyna daily do you think currency would only be 6~8k? I myself think it would be at 10k+ because of the req to enter, and impossibility of entering solo.