Spirits Re-make

[solodragon1984]

as a smn for years even before 76+ cap i've been talking to my friends and linkshell mates on how we Smns got screwed when it comes to summon spirits cause we have no control on which spells they cast and no way to see how much mp it has and avatar perp doesn't work on spirits and i know cause i tested ton of avatar perp - gear had over 16- and mp cost and perp was the same as without all the gear and yet i used fenrir with same perp- gear and ended up getting 3tick back into my MP and thats without favor active
so Long story short Add some control to spirits so we can control which spells they use and maybe if you can add raise spell to light spirit :) and fix the perp down stuff

[Korpg]

Spirits were not made to be in the same level as avatars.

You need to realize that, by giving us Elemental Siphon, SE gave us a reason to have spirits in the first place, except for completion sake.

[MakkotoParinne]

Opposite to the above post, I think it's a wonderful idea. :D There's nothing wrong with wanting to maximize the use out of part of a job, especially when that part has been forgotten since Elemental Siphon.

The playstyle between Avatars and Elementals is very different, Spirits relying much more on Summoning Magic skill for their timer in order to do the best they can do. However, due to the lack of discernable INT or MAB traits, the magic damage is sub-par at best. All they really need to do is increase the magic damage, and make them a little more conformed to how other Avatars play, ie, make them cost less and add some control in the form of Blood Pact: Rage. I doubt it would be too bad on memory, considering PS2 limitations, but I think they could manage if they wanted to.

[Rakshaka]

At the very least, the magic skill of spirits (i.e. elemental, divine, enfeebling) needs to be raised so they're not interrupted and resisted as much. I don't see many options when it comes to balancing spirits. They can't be balanced with mp costs (Flare costs more than Burn) because we can just resummon them with a full mp pool anyway. Perhaps if they cycled between spells, or didn't overwrite current elemental enfeebles, then they'd be more viable. One option that I think would strike a good balance would be to implement a charge system similar to beastmaster pets.

For anyone not familiar with the system, you store points over time, and spend them on abilities that your pet performs. The more powerful an ability is, the more charges it takes up. The same concept could be applied to spirits. For example, Burn could cost 1 point while Flare costs 3. This would take care of the problem where currently the spirits with the fewest enfeeble spells are the most useful, as they have the highest chance of casting a damaging spell. Implementing this system would mean that each spirit would be useful in its own right.

Putting the ancient magic aside, this system would allow the smn to be much more versatile. This would allow summoners to intentionally apply enfeebles like silence, slow, paralyze, etc. As we all know, our own versions of these spells are often resisted due to our skill in enfeebling/dark being extremely low (only get these skills from SJs).

[Soundwave]

I mean no disrespect but many other spirit threads have been created already but I guess it don't hurt for more to let SE know they need adjustment.

My thoughts are with Korpg on this, sorry...I do agree spirits need a type of an adjustment though...just not to surpass our avatars.

[Arciel]

I think spirit's magic accuracy should be tied to the SMN's magic skill or something. by itself its really pathetic and the whole skill over cap thing has no effect on non-BP stuff, meaning spirits get no benefit from it at all.

as for control over spirits, I do feel that some control will be needed if we are to be able to use spirits effectively. I still think a Blood Pact: Elemental category which allows players to pick which stance the player wants the spirits to be in would be the most intuitive way to implement this.

Full control of whatever spells would be too much.. I believe SE is wary not to have spirits supercede the effectiveness of Stormwaker automaton in terms of balancing spirits.

I also agree that Spirits should not be balanced up to the extent where they can supercede avatars but to a point where the player gains a benefit in specifically using spirits instead of avatars.

2 suggestion i might make.

1) Give elemental spirits Favors. Have each favor simply be an elemental resistance bonus for the party. This would strongly enhance the SMNs defensive options.
edit: make it much more potent than Fenrir

2) Allow spirits to absorb elemental damage from their own element instead of resisting it. This would give spirits a certain edge over avatars in various situations but not in an offensive capacity, partly because they still work on the same spell system, and also because elementally, the mob will likely not be weak to the same element it can deal.

Degrees of balance.

[Elvyn]

we have no control on which spells they cast

I can't say im overly hurt about that BUT I do wish they would add some more support abilities to the eles, like for example a pty wide buff spell, Stoneskin-ga for the Earth ele, Ice Spike-ga for the Ice ele just to emphasize SMN is a supportive role.



and no way to see how much mp it has

Completely by accident (using my PUP macros whilst on SMN) I found that the MP% Macro dose in-fact work on SMNs Elementals! It may only be a percentage but its workable. <petmpp> for those who have never use it! :D



and avatar prep doesn't work on spirits and i know cause i tested ton of avatar prep - gear had over 16- and mp cost and prep was the same as without all the gear and yet i used fenrir with same prep- gear and ended up getting 3tick back into my MP and thats without favor active


Not sure if your talking about AF3 or not, but after some testing... (Im standing in the Tree waiting on Thunder weather... anyone guess what im doing >.>; lol ) but it dose effect the elementals mp cost, most notable to the hands which half the cost of the elemental if its the correct corresponding day.

[Korpg]

I can't say im overly hurt about that BUT I do wish they would add some more support abilities to the eles, like for example a pty wide buff spell, Stoneskin-ga for the Earth ele, Ice Spike-ga for the Ice ele just to emphasize SMN is a supportive role.

Um....SMNs already have that....

Earthen Ward....
Frost Armor....
Aerial Armor....
Hastaga....
Noctoshield....

Those are the names of a few....

[Elvyn]

I can't say im overly hurt about that BUT I do wish they would add some more support abilities to the eles, like for example a pty wide buff spell, Stoneskin-ga for the Earth ele, Ice Spike-ga for the Ice ele just to emphasize SMN is a supportive role.

Apparently you missed my point...any relation to Dallas?

[Korpg]

Apparently you missed my point...any relation to Dallas?

I saw your point, I still think it is stupid. You are basically asking for the same thing we already have, but with no control!

Why do you think we, as SMNs, would want that at all?

[Elvyn]

I saw your point, I still think it is stupid. You are basically asking for the same thing we already have, but with no control!

Why do you think we, as SMNs, would want that at all?

/facepalm ok your either stupid or a troll... either way... did you read the bit I put in bold "EXAMPLE" doesn't mean it has to be an existing ability. Also as you already stated in your original post you don't think highly of Elementals as nothing more than a pre-requisite to Elemental Siphon... So please feel free to trololol all you want unless you got an idea on how to improve the eles... please do it somewhere else^^

[Malamasala]

At the very least, the magic skill of spirits (i.e. elemental, divine, enfeebling) needs to be raised so they're not interrupted and resisted as much.

I'm quite certain spirits are BLMs with the same traits and skills as any other BLM. The issue at hand is of course that they lack the same merits and armor choices that BLMs use. Not to mention they cast random spells with long waits between.

But I'm sure if you bring a naked, unmerited BLM played by a 3 year old, you'd get the same effects.

[Korpg]

/facepalm ok your either stupid or a troll... either way... did you read the bit I put in bold "EXAMPLE" doesn't mean it has to be an existing ability. Also as you already stated in your original post you don't think highly of Elementals as nothing more than a pre-requisite to Elemental Siphon... So please feel free to trololol all you want unless you got an idea on how to improve the eles... please do it somewhere else^^

Wait, what spells can a spirit use that an avatar can't?

Stoneskin? Got Titan for that
Blink? Got Garuda for that
Protect/Shell? Got Carbuncle for that, and you can have both at the same time!
Phalanx? Got Diabolos for that
Enfire? Got Ifrit for that
Enthunder? Got Ramuh for that
Shock Spikes? Got Ramuh for that
Ice Spikes? Got Shiva for that

Basically, avatars can't cast en-blizzard/aero/stone/water or Blaze Spikes. Are we really missing out on those spells?

Seriously, spirits were not made to be close to or exceed avatars. The ability for spirits to cast random spells is nice, but not really worth keeping them out for the pitiful damage they produce with the inability to control them at all. I rather have an avatar using a BP when I want to do spike damage (and possibility of doing a magic burst if timed right) than having a spirit doing weaker damage and possibility of casting Burn over Flare.

[Elvyn]

Wait, what spells can a spirit use that an avatar can't?

Stoneskin? Got Titan for that
Blink? Got Garuda for that
Protect/Shell? Got Carbuncle for that, and you can have both at the same time!
Phalanx? Got Diabolos for that
Enfire? Got Ifrit for that
Enthunder? Got Ramuh for that
Shock Spikes? Got Ramuh for that
Ice Spikes? Got Shiva for that

Basically, avatars can't cast en-blizzard/aero/stone/water or Blaze Spikes. Are we really missing out on those spells?

Seriously, spirits were not made to be close to or exceed avatars. The ability for spirits to cast random spells is nice, but not really worth keeping them out for the pitiful damage they produce with the inability to control them at all. I rather have an avatar using a BP when I want to do spike damage (and possibility of doing a magic burst if timed right) than having a spirit doing weaker damage and possibility of casting Burn over Flare.

Thats it!!!!!!! Thats the exact reason we want them upgraded! Not so they can exceed avatars in the slightest but so they can be of some use! SE got it almost right by giving LS Banish IV before WHMs got it lol

Malamasala also has an awesome point eles lack stat boosts of the same lvl Jobs and I don't personally find the casting time of my eles a problem (smn skill @395) but it could stand to do with some tweaking ;P

Why should we settle for having our eles be less than awesome... there pure elemental power! I admit i have no issue with having no control but would like high dmg to come with the spells as result, saying they shouldn't be powerful cause we have other powerful Avatars at our disposable is a close minded sandbox summoner who obviously only wants summoner to evolve in one direction.

[Razushu]

Thats it!!!!!!! Thats the exact reason we want them upgraded! Not so they can exceed avatars in the slightest but so they can be of some use! SE got it almost right by giving LS Banish IV before WHMs got it lol

Malamasala also has an awesome point eles lack stat boosts of the same lvl Jobs and I don't personally find the casting time of my eles a problem (smn skill @395) but it could stand to do with some tweaking ;P

Why should we settle for having our eles be less than awesome... there pure elemental power! I admit i have no issue with having no control but would like high dmg to come with the spells as result, saying they shouldn't be powerful cause we have other powerful Avatars at our disposable is a close minded sandbox summoner who obviously only wants summoner to evolve in one direction.

Spirits were designed as low level pets until we got more Avatars than Carbuncle. SE breathed new life into them with Elemental Siphon, and now they see regular use.

Need to Heal.... use Avatars

Need to Buff.... use Avatars

Need a Tank.... use Avatars

Need to DD.... use Avatars

Need to Nuke.... use Avatars

Need MP.... use spirits

As you can see Avatars cover all the bases already, so spirits aren't needed. If there is a buff to spirits it will be pointless if it fills one of these 6 roles. Think of an ability the shares Elemental Siphon's recast, and drains MP from a summoned spirit for a flat 300MP return, it wouldn't get used because a) We already have an ability that does that, and b) It's weaker than the ability we already have.

If SE was going to buff spirits it would need to be something completely different from what SMN can already do to be meaningful. Since our Avatars already cover all the bases(MP refill aside), it's highly unlikely that a buff to spirits will mean anything.

It's fine that they are "less than awesome", although I consider 500MP back every 5 minutes pretty damn awesome. It's not that they shouldn't be powerful just, honestly what would be the point? Avatars are elemental gods made manifest as opposed to just a floating ball of elemental energy, so naturally they would always be more powerful.

It's not a closed minded viewpoint to recognise what would amount to a useless adjustment and what wouldn't. lets say they spent all their time alloted to SMN until the next update buffing a spirits nukes to the point where there most powerful spell was equal to a lvl 1 merit pact. What would actually happen? Sure now we can use spirits as nukers, but we could already do that with our Avatars, so what did Summoner actually gain in that update? Essentially a new toy, nothing more. Now lets say the Devs instead spent the time between next update enchancing our avatars buff potency, now we have buufs that not only last a reasonable duration, but they have an effect that is impressive enough that we start to become more accepted as party buffers.

No one wants Summoner to evolve on one line only, saying spirits are fine as is and wanting SE to concentrate Avatars, is wanting Summoner to evolve period. Which a buff to spirits would not provide unless it buffed them to a) be more powerful than Avatars(not going to happen) or, b) fill a role that doesn't yet exist(unlikely).

[Karbuncle]

The only problem i see with "They were designed to be used only before we got our avatars" is the "Spirit Perpetuation Cost" merits. Why have merits for something that they intended not to be used after Avatars were obtained?

Me thinks in the long list of Summoner Adjustments, Spirits should be added to the things adjusted. They don't need major focus, But perhaps actually letting them learn the magic they should have gotten already (I.E Teir V Nukes) and give them their rightful Traits (MAB Traits) so they're not 100% Useless.

Could add a "BP" like System where it could be on a 1 min timer separate from normal casting, that when used made it cast a Nuke.

Either way, it should not be very high on the list of things needing repair as it would be a lot of effort for little reward, Development time that should ideally be spent no improving the job in more meaningful ways.

[Razushu]

The only problem i see with "They were designed to be used only before we got our avatars" is the "Spirit Perpetuation Cost" merits. Why have merits for something that they intended not to be used after Avatars were obtained?

Me thinks in the long list of Summoner Adjustments, Spirits should be added to the things adjusted. They don't need major focus, But perhaps actually letting them learn the magic they should have gotten already (I.E Teir V Nukes) and give them their rightful Traits (MAB Traits) so they're not 100% Useless.

Could add a "BP" like System where it could be on a 1 min timer separate from normal casting, that when used made it cast a Nuke.

Either way, it should not be very high on the list of things needing repair as it would be a lot of effort for little reward, Development time that should ideally be spent no improving the job in more meaningful ways.

I think the merits, are there jsut because SE used to be terrible at deciding what to give to Summoner. Those merits are in the same category as Avatar: atk/acc/mab/macc, elemental perp- didn't really fit in there. Maybe they we're thinking of adding a flat -perp in there and decided against.

as for the bolded, I completely argee with you. When our job is fixed to the point of acceptance, by all means SE should look at the spirits. In the mean time though.... focus on improving the jobs performance.

[Korpg]

Why should we settle for having our eles be less than awesome... there pure elemental power! I admit i have no issue with having no control but would like high dmg to come with the spells as result, saying they shouldn't be powerful cause we have other powerful Avatars at our disposable is a close minded sandbox summoner who obviously only wants summoner to evolve in one direction.

Wait, isn't that what you are asking? Buff the spirits but not the avatars? You can't have both spirits and avatars on equal standing, that would be pointless, because why have both of them then?

[Arciel]

i dunno if i should take offense because I'm one of the SMN who chose to merit elemental MP perp cost and still keep those merits to this day.

in defense of elemental spirits and their uses.. at least at lv75, there was considerable use for these summons. they weren't exactly useful, but were definitely not useless.

back then, with a decent gear set for spirits (which meant relic spats + skill gear + perp in remaining slots), you could make your spirits be the most effective that they could ever be - this made them cheap / less effective / possibly more mp efficient options to avatars.
to get straight to the point, they could potentially do a lot more damage from "pure perp cost" mp than avatars did, making them MP efficient in proper situations - key word being potentially because a lot depends on whether they will cast their nukes instead of enfeebles.

one good bad example of this is probably with trying to solo/duo Ule buffaloes. They're weak to magic and you're more likely to run out of MP within each kill if you use an avatar than if you did an elemental spirit. This makes them a lot less MP costly and possibly a lot more MP efficient provided they put out.

The same thing still applies now really, except that in spite of an increase in their natural perp cost, they haven't actually gotten stronger (no new spells), so they've become more inefficient, in a way. However, given that they're so much easier to make free perp-cost wise, any increased casting would greatly improve their efficiency. And this makes SMN nuking wellsprings that would literally not depend on MP at all. The closest comparison we can make to this is nuking automatons and altho they're much stronger they actually have to care for MP management on pet and cannot choose element either, so they each have different trade offs at work.

However, elemental spirits are still outdated. They were only barely useful at 75, so now they've really become redundant

[Elvyn]

Wait, isn't that what you are asking? Buff the spirits but not the avatars? You can't have both spirits and avatars on equal standing, that would be pointless, because why have both of them then?

I was looking at the comments Karbuncle and Razushu had made and saw some real value in what they were saying and decided to let the subject drop but then you had to say this, possibly the stupidest comment on the forum!

Can't have both on equal standing? Why the hell not!? Why have SCH when WHM and BLM can do its job better, why have RDM when nearly all jobs have there own enfeeb spells/ja... Hell why even bother having SMN when we have Full on DDs and Support Jobs! So yea you'll have to forgive me about wanting to improve an aspect of a job I love but I remember a time when people used to question the usefulness of our job altogether because we weren't quite a DD, not quite a BRD and no were near a WHM... but now thats changed.

So how about in stead of being a sand-box smn and merely pointing out how Eles are inferior to Avas, you do as the thread title suggests and put forward some decent suggestions on how they could be improved? If you cant... What are you doing in this thread at all?

[Korpg]

I was looking at the comments Karbuncle and Razushu had made and saw some real value in what they were saying and decided to let the subject drop but then you had to say this, possibly the stupidest comment on the forum!

You must be new here. You haven't seen how Slow is better than Haste for TP gain, melee SMN can do more damage than an Ukon WAR, and Abyssea burning is the same as RMTing. But then again, this follows:


Can't have both on equal standing? Why the hell not!? Why have SCH when WHM and BLM can do its job better, why have RDM when nearly all jobs have there own enfeeb spells/ja...

You accuse what I said as stupid, and yet, you follow up with this....yeah... SCH is great at what it does, MP conservation. They have the best MP per damage ratio, even though their nukes are not quite as powerful as a BLM. They have the best MP per heal ratio, even though they are limited by Cure IV, and WHM/SCH can be on equal footing, if not better footing due to +2 Orison's Panties. But SCH has the ability to change jobs without having to zone into the mog house. They are great at being both a WHM and a BLM, and can outnuke a WHM and outheal a BLM. That is what they excel at. RDM is great at enfeebling, and nothing will take that away from them, at least at the moment. So you really don't invite a SCH to do a RDM's job now, do you?


Hell why even bother having SMN when we have Full on DDs and Support Jobs! So yea you'll have to forgive me about wanting to improve an aspect of a job I love but I remember a time when people used to question the usefulness of our job altogether because we weren't quite a DD, not quite a BRD and no were near a WHM... but now thats changed.

How did that change? We are still not quite a DD, nowhere near a BRD, and nowhere near a WHM. The main thing we can do is deliver TPless damage, and be the best soloist job out there (or tied with BST). We are the job where you can throw bodies at a mob all the time without having to worry about shouting for a raise or waiting for weakness to wear. We are the job that can take full advantage over an element and keep our damage within that same element.


So how about in stead of being a sand-box smn and merely pointing out how Eles are inferior to Avas, you do as the thread title suggests and put forward some decent suggestions on how they could be improved? If you cant... What are you doing in this thread at all?

I'm pointing out what spirits were meant to be. Raz pointed it out too. Spirits are there for lower level SMNs who didn't have all avatars yet, and as the SMN grows, and gets more avatars, the less spirits become. Elemental Siphon as breathed new life into spirits, and actually gave a reason for most (dark spirit mostly). You can't improve them at all because they did what they meant to do. Its like asking for DRGs to still use Jump instead of Soul Jump, or asking BRDs to still use Valor Minuet I/II instead of the current level Minuets. Or asking for a Protect I when you can have a Protect V. Those spells have become redundant, why not ask for a boost to them also? You are basically asking that anyway.

[Elvyn]

You must be new here. You haven't seen how Slow is better than Haste for TP gain, melee SMN can do more damage than an Ukon WAR, and Abyssea burning is the same as RMTing. But then again, this follows:

I'm not even going to hazard a guess and why anyone would say that -_-?



You accuse what I said as stupid, and yet, you follow up with this....yeah... SCH is great at what it does, MP conservation. They have the best MP per damage ratio, even though their nukes are not quite as powerful as a BLM. They have the best MP per heal ratio, even though they are limited by Cure IV, and WHM/SCH can be on equal footing, if not better footing due to +2 Orison's Panties. But SCH has the ability to change jobs without having to zone into the mog house. They are great at being both a WHM and a BLM, and can outnuke a WHM and outheal a BLM. That is what they excel at. RDM is great at enfeebling, and nothing will take that away from them, at least at the moment. So you really don't invite a SCH to do a RDM's job now, do you?

Obviously using any form of comparison is lost on you... so ill stop using them.


How did that change? We are still not quite a DD, nowhere near a BRD, and nowhere near a WHM. The main thing we can do is deliver TPless damage, and be the best soloist job out there (or tied with BST). We are the job where you can throw bodies at a mob all the time without having to worry about shouting for a raise or waiting for weakness to wear. We are the job that can take full advantage over an element and keep our damage within that same element.

I lol'd that you think SMN is anywhere near BST is terms of solo... that will keep me giggling all day, thanks ^^



I'm pointing out what spirits were meant to be. Raz pointed it out too. Spirits are there for lower level SMNs who didn't have all avatars yet, and as the SMN grows, and gets more avatars, the less spirits become. Elemental Siphon as breathed new life into spirits, and actually gave a reason for most (dark spirit mostly). You can't improve them at all because they did what they meant to do. Its like asking for DRGs to still use Jump instead of Soul Jump, or asking BRDs to still use Valor Minuet I/II instead of the current level Minuets. Or asking for a Protect I when you can have a Protect V. Those spells have become redundant, why not ask for a boost to them also? You are basically asking that anyway.

Sure why not! Let's also ask SE to breath some life into the old redundant god gear?! Oh wait.. they already did that... or what about the situational AF2.... wait! There doing that as well!

Why not just go the full hog and ask SE to remove eles altogether and just give us an ability so gain mp based on our smn skill w/o having all the faf of summoning a pointless piece of AI.

As you can probably tell iv stopped putting any effort into replying to you... your just going to continue spouting the same old yawp about redundancy then fine, I can't blame you for wanting to close your eyes to the potential of something because its easier than coming up with ways to improve it.

[Korpg]

I lol'd that you think SMN is anywhere near BST is terms of solo... that will keep me giggling all day, thanks ^^


Well, you obviously haven't soloed as SMN on big stuff then. Ever tried to solo Alfred in A-Grauberg as BST?


Sure why not! Let's also ask SE to breath some life into the old redundant god gear?! Oh wait.. they already did that... or what about the situational AF2.... wait! There doing that as well!

Why not just go the full hog and ask SE to remove eles altogether and just give us an ability so gain mp based on our smn skill w/o having all the faf of summoning a pointless piece of AI.


We aren't talking about gear, we are talking about spells.

Gear for 75 that were good at 75 but suck at 90 that are getting redone is one thing. Spells that were good at 1 but suck as soon as you get something better is another. Which is what spirits are, good for those who don't have anything better to use.

I'm still waiting on why you think spirits should be on equal footing with avatars though.

[Malamasala]

Malamasala also has an awesome point eles lack stat boosts of the same lvl Jobs and I don't personally find the casting time of my eles a problem (smn skill @395) but it could stand to do with some tweaking ;P

What do you fight?

My old experiments showed that in a small party with 1-2 melee and 1 SMN using spirits, the monster will be at 20% HP when it starts casting its first spell. If it is DoT, it served no purpose. If it is AM, the mob is dead before it is cast. If it is tier IV, you are overkilling the mob. These were T-VT mobs. In theory you have slightly better shot at nuking a IT mob. However IT mobs will resist you instead, just to spit in your face.

The most basic problem is still the "assault bug". Even if you keep your spirit out 10 minutes, it will take 25+ seconds before it casts a spell after you assault. Why? Because SE decided that it changes "modes" to attacking mode, and it should start at max time because else we wouldn't suffer enough.

Simplest fix to make spirits 250% more efficient is to fix said bug. If I can keep my spirit out 25 seconds and then assault and get an instant spell, it will be so much more worth it than having to wait 25 seconds after assault.

PS. I've bug reported this in March, about my 5th time since 2006. So far, no feedback about if they intend on fixing this, or if it is on purpose that we can't use spirits.

Sometimes I feel that I might as well go make fake error reports, since they do not bother looking into them anyway.

[Secondplanet]

I think the spirits should be redone also, when my wife and i duo stuff i use the light elemental to give us protect IV and Shell IV, This is a great way to get decent buffs but sometimes we're waiting like 5-10mins for the spirit to stop casting regen and haste constantly.

I do believe this needs to be looked into, even if they allow us basic commands like support, debuff or assault. Even with the AI the way it is this would atleast give us the option on how the elementals behave.

[Kaych]

Does anyone know if SE has commented on the "Spirits-beeing-useless-subject"? To me it seems like SE only answers the topics they want to. When its touchy topics like Spirits, RDM mele etc, I feel they just dont have an aswer and therefore choose to not say anything. It would be nice for a change if they actually said: "We are aware of the Spirit's-situation, but we can't look into this at the moment" or "We know that the spirits are useless, but at the moment we have no idea how to fix it/balance it" or whatever...

(After a month of not being able to write on forums due to problems with playonline ID transfer, I am finally back, so forgive me if anyone has asked this. Cant read through all comments on all threadsXD)

[Kaych]

Btw Secondplanet, I do beleve if you cast regen on yourself and haste, your spirit wont cast it. Have the spirit only facing one of you. That makes it easyer to get protect and shell. When you have gotten what you want, u make it face your wife and then cast regen and haste on her. Also if you dont have acess to haste, just stand still till it casts protect. It never casts the same spell again on you. (until it wears off)

For some reason, if u cast Regen II, it will cast regen I on you O.o? so dodnt do that ^_-

[Razushu]

Does anyone know if SE has commented on the "Spirits-beeing-useless-subject"? To me it seems like SE only answers the topics they want to. When its touchy topics like Spirits, RDM mele etc, I feel they just dont have an aswer and therefore choose to not say anything. It would be nice for a change if they actually said: "We are aware of the Spirit's-situation, but we can't look into this at the moment" or "We know that the spirits are useless, but at the moment we have no idea how to fix it/balance it" or whatever...

(After a month of not being able to write on forums due to problems with playonline ID transfer, I am finally back, so forgive me if anyone has asked this. Cant read through all comments on all threadsXD)

SE have been fairly vocal on SMN as of late, but no mention of spirits. I don't think it's a case of the reps avoiding touchy subjects(although I do think they skip threads full of bickering), I think it's more like they know what subjects are currently on the table and what ones are on the backburner. This is probably easily gleaned from the manifesto, i.e RDM is an enfeebler so it's unlikely the reps will be sifting through a 100+ page RDM melee thread to bring these things to attention in the near future.

SE's vision is for SMNs to rely on our Avatars, so this will likely explain the silence on spirits, while we are getting some good updates on Avatars and BP delay etc. I would say that lack of input from SE on the subject of spirits points to one of two conclusions, either 1) they're aware but the devs are focusing on making us better through adjustments to Avatars, or 2) They know how some of us feel about spirits, but spirits are currently working as designed* so they're not going to do anything with them.

Both are equally likely to be true, and both mean it will be unlikely that SE gives word on what they think about spirits in the forseeable future, although one could argue they've as much as told us with their silence, and the fact they mention Avatars specifically when refering to us using pets

*Which in this case would be low level pets until we get Avatars, then an MP management tool.

[Razushu]

Btw Secondplanet, I do beleve if you cast regen on yourself and haste, your spirit wont cast it. Have the spirit only facing one of you. That makes it easyer to get protect and shell. When you have gotten what you want, u make it face your wife and then cast regen and haste on her. Also if you dont have acess to haste, just stand still till it casts protect. It never casts the same spell again on you. (until it wears off)

For some reason, if u cast Regen II, it will cast regen I on you O.o? so dodnt do that ^_-

I've never seen it do that, I must be lucky lol. Thanks for the info:D

[Covenant]

I think the trouble with most Summoners on this thread is that they are viewing avatars AND spirits from the viewpoint of a lvl 90 summoner. They are incapable of viewing the job lvl 1-90. If SE DIDN'T want spirits to evolve why did SE lvl and adjust them up to lvl 75? Razuho and kropg treat them as it they are tier 1 fire spells that no one uses anymore.

I don't think direct command is the answer to spirits or bloodpactting, though I wouldn't mind it. Simply allowing them to lvl to 90-99 with all appropriate stat adjustments would do wonders. I still have hope for improved avatar functionality in the "multiple effect" Bloodpacts, but still view spirits in the melee/tank/nuke role.
The speed casting could be address via special "spirit gear" but with the casting caps and stupid IE(though ailment resists is because their MaB is so low) I doubt players would adjust their play unless a bloodpact AND garunteed nuke could both be used in a 1min timer.

[Razushu]

I think the trouble with most Summoners on this thread is that they are viewing avatars AND spirits from the viewpoint of a lvl 90 summoner. They are incapable of viewing the job lvl 1-90. If SE DIDN'T want spirits to evolve why did SE lvl and adjust them up to lvl 75? Razushu and korpg treat them as it they are tier 1 fire spells that no one uses anymore.

Not really even way back when I was starting out, once I hit lvl20 I stopped using spirits, Avatars are just plain better. thinking of SMN 20-90 Avatars>spirits, that's just the way it is. They're about as effective as Tier IIIs, and as is the way with all jobs we leave things behind as we level up. Level 1-19 they were actually ok, gave some variety while you couldn't get the Avatars.

Understanding this has nothing at all to do with being "incapable of viewing the job lvl 1-90", it has to do with knowing things aren't always meant for heavy use from lvl 1-90. In all honesty a far bigger problem for SMN lvl 1-75 is scarcity of -perp gear, this is a far bigger problem leveling the job than a replaced set of pets ever was or could be, in fact lack of gear in general is very debilitating to SMN lvl 1-50.


I don't think direct command is the answer to spirits or bloodpactting, though I wouldn't mind it. Simply allowing them to lvl to 90-99 with all appropriate stat adjustments would do wonders. I still have hope for improved avatar functionality in the "multiple effect" Bloodpacts, but still view spirits in the melee/tank/nuke role.
The speed casting could be address via special "spirit gear" but with the casting caps and stupid IE(though ailment resists is because their MaB is so low) I doubt players would adjust their play unless a bloodpact AND garunteed nuke could both be used in a 1min timer.

The problem with that view is thats what Avatars are for too alongside buffing and healing. If SE is going to bother doing something to the spirits, it would have to be something along different lines of thought to Avatars. Sure they could make spirits nukes a little more reliable, and make them a little stronger, but it's highly unlikely they will make them equal or near equal to an Avatars power, which would be a completely wasted update. Any update to spirits along current lines of pet evolvution would be totally wasted man hours, lets say they buffed spirits to 80% power of Avatars, what would that accomplish? Can we do anything we couldn't before? No. Do we have a better tank/DD pet? No. Better nuking pet? No. Better buffer? No. About the only thing we could do is <assault> a relatively weak NM with a group, and afk for 5 minutes while our pet makes it look like we were still there.

If SE is going to do something to spirits, it will have to be something no one ever expected, because a straight forward buff to them will be a complete waste of time because we already have pets fillling those roles much better.

I understand that you like spirits and want to see them buffed, thats fine but there's nothing that SE can do to them that Avatars won't outshine them at, unless that buff is something radically different from what Avatars already do. I can't actually think of what that could be atm, but who knows they might suprise us.

As the game is now SE is doing the completely right thing ignoring spirits and working to improve our Avatars, it's the best way they can improve the job, and bring it to the level it needs to be. I'm not saying never to a spirit adjustment, just please not right now, and make it something we can't already do with Avatars, or they will have just wasted time updating SMN in a way that doesn't actually benefit the job, just lets people who want to, play with spirits.

[Soranika]

How about a job ability with a moderate recast time that will actually grant us control of our spirits long enough to choose what spell they use, just one. I don't like being pushed out NM parties as SMN because SE's sick sense of humor decided not to let Avatar's IV tier black magic and merited blood packs not count. Or generally say that summoning magic isn't really magic.

[Arciel]

I think the trouble with most Summoners on this thread is that they are viewing avatars AND spirits from the viewpoint of a lvl 90 summoner. They are incapable of viewing the job lvl 1-90. If SE DIDN'T want spirits to evolve why did SE lvl and adjust them up to lvl 75? Razuho and kropg treat them as it they are tier 1 fire spells that no one uses anymore.


this is a sentiment I share with you. None of the spirits have grown past level 75 with the exception of Light Spirit with the Banish spell that WHMs don't have, and possibly something from Dark Spirit but those have always been useless anyway.

In other words, whatever usefulness they had at 75 has either remained the same or gone down (mostly the 2nd one)..
at this point i think it really boils down to one of two main things that they can do to make Spirits relevant again.

1) increase their natural MAB and MACC substantially so that their nukes and enfeebles are even decent when being used. Especially past 75, altho this has been a slight issue in the past already. At least if its random, its still worth it.

2) increase control of the spirits abilities. Allow players to control roughly when/what/how the spirit acts. In other words, it may still be weak, but at least I can control what it does.

secret option 3) increase both areas to a certain extent. wouldn't want them to overshadow Avatars now.

secret option 4) give Spirits an entirely new use that doesn't involve summoning them for 3 seconds and dismissing.

There is a lot of potential here that can be worked in through new JA, JT or gear. I just don't think Spirits are even within range of being a main concern from developers because they think we don't use them anyway - although in reality we don't use them because they aren't doing enough to these spirits.

[Covenant]

Hmm just thought if something...what if avatars continued on the straight "damage up path" of physical and melee, while the spirits took my "multi-effects path"? That is the hybrid spirits could cast new enfeebs not seen. Such as my "murk" spell combine water and dark, to get blind and poison effects. Concievably, these enfeebs and buffs could be the next tiered spells such as poison 3, paralyze 3 etc.?


Just giving spirits new, not seen enfeebs such as next tiered...would allow Summoner to quickly summon spirits in-between avatars Bloodpacts/wards AND element siphon making spirits useful. This would allow avatars to focus only on damaging. No toes will get stepped on.

Thos is of course the issue of low skill lvl (cap 75). But if they could increase fNPC fellows they can increase spirits.

[Malamasala]

Level 1-19 they were actually ok, gave some variety while you couldn't get the Avatars.

Ok? Thunder and Ice are learned so late that those spirits do not even have spells at 19. I think you get fire somewhere around 17? Leaving you mainly with earth, wind, water in the dunes... which also happen to cast poison, bind, silence and such and cause you to wait 2 minutes average per spell and use 2*20*~4 MP for it. Yea, roughly 160 MP for a Stone I spell.

Call that ok if you want, but don't expect me to think you aren't insane.

[Shadotter]

One idea I've been wondering about for a while is what if you make spirits better in certain situational cases. Such as maybe making it more highly effected by weather and day by giving it a stronger haste effect, or giving it a bonus for taking on an enemy's elemental weakness. Something that makes it so that in most cases, avatars are stronger, but at certain times you can benefit more from a spirit.

[Neonii]

I think it would be cool to have the avatar and spirit out at the same time in lieu of using an npc. I know overpowering ect but I can dream.

[Malamasala]

I think the only balance issue of avatar + spirit is that your monster has to kill 2 pets with 50% damage reduction to get to you. However if you made spirits summoned along with avatars, and made spirits die on avatar death, then I think it would be balanced.

Well, further changes would probably be needed. Because even if your avatar had a spirit companion, they'd still be mostly useless. It isn't like a pet casting shock is going to make or break your solo session. And unless AI is fixed, it will cast shock more than anything else.

[Razushu]

Ok? Thunder and Ice are learned so late that those spirits do not even have spells at 19. I think you get fire somewhere around 17? Leaving you mainly with earth, wind, water in the dunes... which also happen to cast poison, bind, silence and such and cause you to wait 2 minutes average per spell and use 2*20*~4 MP for it. Yea, roughly 160 MP for a Stone I spell.

Call that ok if you want, but don't expect me to think you aren't insane.

I call it ok for ok levels lol, they were something to mess about with until you got the other Avatars(which were actually too expensive to use effectively too). The only pets that were low enough cost to be worth using at low levels were Carby & Fenrir, of which most people were stuck with Carby only at low levels. ~lvl20 it was still Avatars>spirits, but the gulf was much narrower.

[Malamasala]

Fine with me. I call it bad at bad levels :)

[Razushu]

Fine with me. I call it bad at bad levels :)

Low levels are just a bad time to be a SMN, everything but Carby costs too much to see frequent use.

[Korpg]

Fine with me. I call it bad at bad levels :)

Can you ever type anything positive?

Spirits are fine as they are, which is a quick MP fix for us.

[Malamasala]

Can you ever type anything positive?

Spirits are fine as they are, which is a quick MP fix for us.

1. You are trying too hard to troll.

2. There are positive posts, but you seem to miss them. I can only assume you look for something to troll, and when I don't give you a chance to, you leave it and pretend it never happened.

3. On the topic of melee SMN, I believe it is YOU who are the negative person. Also, each time I suggest something new, who drops by to say negative things if not you?

4. What could I possibly gain from going to all the other job boards and say "Stop complaining, your job is fine"? While it is true, exactly what do I accomplish except upset people who think their jobs needs something new? Posting "positive" comments can cause just as much annoyance as negative.

5. I think SMN is fine too. The problem is that my goal is perfection. Spirits used only for siphon is fine, spirits used every time you want to assume the role of a BLM (or WHM) is perfection. And I know your troll instincts now tingle to make you reply "So you want SMN to be as good as BLM and WHM?", which I never said, if you had tried to read instead of troll. What I want is that I can assume the role of a poor WHM or poor BLM. Like my Light Spirit should be able to help heal non-tanks that get hit by AOE, saving WHMs curaga hate and MP. My Thunder spirit should be able to toss half as many nukes as a BLM in the same time period. Kind of like an AFKing BLM who casts when he isn't busy eating food.


You'd do the whole community a favor if you stopped thinking everyone shares your opinion. It is quite obvious by the independent spirit threads that they are a hot topic for more people than just me. SE saying they want to look into the effects of blood pacts also seem to hint that either I've whined so many years they listened to me, or more than just me wish for better pacts.

What are you even trying to accomplish on these forums? I'm trying to improve the job. It seems like your goal is preventing any changes at all. And that is a pretty negative attitude if I ever saw one. Wasting time on a forum to make sure as few others enjoy your job as possible. Not to mention the subtle hints that you don't want to re-learn how to play the job. Spirit updates? Too much for your brain too adapt to. Melee SMN? Also too hard. Same old but stronger avatars? Yea, that will not require you to learn anything new, and just do whatever you used to do.

That said, you'd save a lot of time of your life if you stopped feeling the need to reply to all my posts and complain. It is your time though, so don't expect me to care if you keep replying with pointless posts.

[Razushu]

The only issue with number 5. is that we can already do that with our Avatars. Want to play WHM use Carby, want to be a nuker use merit pacts.

Like I've already said any buff to spirits in an area Avatars already fill is wasted dev time, I'm not against a buff to spirits, just not now(there's more important things to work on), and it can't be something we already can do with Avatars(if it's going to be meaningful).

[Korpg]

1. You are trying too hard to troll.

I'm not trying at all.


2. There are positive posts, but you seem to miss them. I can only assume you look for something to troll, and when I don't give you a chance to, you leave it and pretend it never happened.

I have yet to see a truly positive post from you yet. Most of your posts are very negative in nature.


3. On the topic of melee SMN, I believe it is YOU who are the negative person. Also, each time I suggest something new, who drops by to say negative things if not you?

Because the topic IS melee SMN. There is nothing positive about that combination, it gimps the SMN and it gimps the real source of damage. Why even have the avatar out when you can't maintain your avatar without whacking off on a mob.


4. What could I possibly gain from going to all the other job boards and say "Stop complaining, your job is fine"? While it is true, exactly what do I accomplish except upset people who think their jobs needs something new? Posting "positive" comments can cause just as much annoyance as negative.

What do you gain to go into every other job board and say "they need to gimp your job to make mine look better?"


5. I think SMN is fine too. The problem is that my goal is perfection. Spirits used only for siphon is fine, spirits used every time you want to assume the role of a BLM (or WHM) is perfection. And I know your troll instincts now tingle to make you reply "So you want SMN to be as good as BLM and WHM?", which I never said, if you had tried to read instead of troll. What I want is that I can assume the role of a poor WHM or poor BLM. Like my Light Spirit should be able to help heal non-tanks that get hit by AOE, saving WHMs curaga hate and MP. My Thunder spirit should be able to toss half as many nukes as a BLM in the same time period. Kind of like an AFKing BLM who casts when he isn't busy eating food.

You know, if you want to be a WHM or a BLM, there are 3 jobs that you can level to do so. WHM or SCH for being a healer, and BLM or SCH for being a nuker. Why do you want to turn SMN into a worse nuker/healer job than SCH?



You'd do the whole community a favor if you stopped thinking everyone shares your opinion. It is quite obvious by the independent spirit threads that they are a hot topic for more people than just me. SE saying they want to look into the effects of blood pacts also seem to hint that either I've whined so many years they listened to me, or more than just me wish for better pacts.

You would do the whole world a favor by stop being so negative, even the first 5 words in your post quoted was in a negative context. SE is not going to listen to you because your ideas are stupid. Your ideas are the same as the idea of using shark meat for bait for catching minnows.


What are you even trying to accomplish on these forums? I'm trying to improve the job. It seems like your goal is preventing any changes at all. And that is a pretty negative attitude if I ever saw one. Wasting time on a forum to make sure as few others enjoy your job as possible. Not to mention the subtle hints that you don't want to re-learn how to play the job. Spirit updates? Too much for your brain too adapt to. Melee SMN? Also too hard. Same old but stronger avatars? Yea, that will not require you to learn anything new, and just do whatever you used to do.

What I'm doing is trying to improve a job without letting the stupid ideas go to SE without showing why they are stupid ideas. This forum is made to have SE look at what the players want, and without opposition, if SE looked at these ideas of yours and Dallas, they would be making melee gear for SMN that nobody would want to use at all. There are already stupid gear out there that only stupid people would wear, why do you want to make stupid people wear stupid items for SMN and make SMN the next loljob?


That said, you'd save a lot of time of your life if you stopped feeling the need to reply to all my posts and complain. It is your time though, so don't expect me to care if you keep replying with pointless posts.

You do care, you keep replying. It would save you a lot of time to realize what is really wrong with the job and waste, as you have stated before, years of complaints that SE obviously ignores you about. But this is a new group of devs, and they don't know what players really want, and I want them to know that we, as players, don't want SMN to be melees. They excel at back line jobs, not right next to actual DDs.

[Covenant]

Only trouble I see with your "spirits" are only good for a quick mp burst is that the same could be accomplished with a /JA wITHOUT the need for spirits. Since speed of spirits summons is negilable.

As I said once before, I have a long memory...if SE DIDN'T want spirits to expand why allow them to evolve over time matching blackmage lvl casting up until 75 then completely forget them?

The ONLY answer that makes sense is that at higher lvls elementals AND mob Summoners would become quite overpowered. Since for the most part mob Summoners DON'T have access to avatars, this issue isn't raised in the normal scope of things except for the astral flows.
By this same token, giving access to "high level spirtis" to BOTH players AND mob Summoners SE thinks it will overpower BOTH jobs.

The ONLY balance between a BLM and spirit nuking is in Fact, the already established spirit nuke casting cycle and timer.

As far as the silly melee summoner nonsense...every job thinks it can melee. And guess what they can, but they CANNOT do it on par with other "dedicated" melee types. That's game balance. A melee summoner is balanced between the player AND it's avatar/spirit. Whereas, a warrior is balance by nothing other than it's own gear and /ja choices. If you need a number. Warriors are 100%melee damage while a summoner is 25%player damage AND 75% avatar/spirit damage. One can play a little with those numbers but basically both jobs will reach the same quota of damage if player on average.

Now I'm sure a player can "parse" the number to disprove my basic arguments, but will this be taking into all accounts of a summoner buffn/debuff, summoning, mp consumption, etc...all of which slows a summoner damage output. Summoner still argue that they CANNOT melee or make it better despite having access to incredibly distructive AoE astral flow, especially AOE death(Odin).

I think SE needs to breakout their testing server, unlock spirits "full" capabilities and see whether or not both players, mob Summoners and those fighting them can be effective choices(if they haven't already).
if SE believes as I stated that this would be too strong, they should at least publicly state this to drop the spirits upgrade discussion.

[Razushu]

Only trouble I see with your "spirits" are only good for a quick mp burst is that the same could be accomplished with a /JA wITHOUT the need for spirits. Since speed of spirits summons is negilable.

As I said once before, I have a long memory...if SE DIDN'T want spirits to expand why allow them to evolve over time matching blackmage lvl casting up until 75 then completely forget them?

The ONLY answer that makes sense is that at higher lvls elementals AND mob Summoners would become quite overpowered. Since for the most part mob Summoners DON'T have access to avatars, this issue isn't raised in the normal scope of things except for the astral flows.
By this same token, giving access to "high level spirtis" to BOTH players AND mob Summoners SE thinks it will overpower BOTH jobs.

The ONLY balance between a BLM and spirit nuking is in Fact, the already established spirit nuke casting cycle and timer.

I think SE needs to breakout their testing server, unlock spirits "full" capabilities and see whether or not both players, mob Summoners and those fighting them can be effective choices(if they haven't already).
if SE believes as I stated that this would be too strong, they should at least publicly state this to drop the spirits upgrade discussion.

They could have given us the /ja as a non-conditional ability, but I don't think they would consider that balanced. Elemental Siphon over time will give us back MP comparable to Convert, if it were to work withut needing to call out the appropriate spirit it could be called OP. As it works now to Siphon we need to dismiss our Avatar(which can be dangerous solo), which loses us things like Avatar TP, Avatar hate built up, and favor charge. This is balanced against the likes of Convert in battle.

They never matched BLM casting, they got the same spells at the same level as wild elementals(iirc), I think sE was updating their spell lists up until 75, because the wilds were getting spells up until this level too, I don't think SE has completely forgotten them, it's more a case of they weren't really doing anythiong with them in the first place, they already served their purpose.

Another answer that makes sense is that spirits are supposed to be weaker, hence why regular mobs use them, while NMs opt for Avatars. I don't see how higher level spirits could OP either, Avatars are already far stronger in both cases. The behaviour of SMN monsters, could be a clear indication of what SE thinks of spirits, and their uses.

SE could breakout their testing server to do this but honestly what would be the point? Spirits might close the gap some when it comes to nuking power, but would would SMN actually gain from this? Lets say you're fighting a monster that is weak to fire in a small group and a lvl1 merit pact and a spirit tier5 do similar damage. First off an update like this gains SMN nothing they still have the same nuking capability, just another pet to do the same damage, but then you add in the fact Ifrit is giving enfire and warcry fulltime to everyone in the group, the spirit once again falls behind leaving SE to say whoops, and the people demanding a buff to spirits scrathing their heads wondering why they thought it was such a big deal in the first place.

If SE is going to buff spirits, it cannot do it in a capacity an Avatar is already filling better than a spirit or it's a waste of time. It will be interesting to see what they do, if anything regarding spirits in this lin of thinking.

[Soranika]

I wonder why people keep making Odin out to be some bad ass as an excuse to assume SMN is over powered. Especially coming with a DRK with access to something like the Twilight Scythe.

Sorry, typing out loud.

[Malamasala]

If SE is going to buff spirits, it cannot do it in a capacity an Avatar is already filling better than a spirit or it's a waste of time.

The interesting part is that you think a spirit beating an avatar would mean they are better in all situations. It is actually possible to make spirits better DDs than avatars, on monsters who do not resist magic or cast stunga/sleepga/silencega. Because Avatars would still be better on those. And as long as avatars are better, there is nothing to complain about, is there?

Still the most simple solution is to just combine/merge spirits and avatars with some kind of favor or something (spirit's favor), since then everyone wins. Both pro-spirit and pro-avatar. The only problem is if SE thinks it is unbalanced with siphon pet always available, and two pets to absorb damage (I doubt they'd be able to fight two different monsters though).

The possibilities with spirits are endless, but it requires someone to actually work on them.

[Kaych]

I've never seen it do that, I must be lucky lol. Thanks for the info:D

Yeah, it just says "No effect" tho. But its annoying if you want another spell^_-

[Covenant]

Without going into the whole TP argument...in between bloodpact and blood ward a player has a few seconds to play with. Why not summon a spirit to "wishfully" cast a strong nuke also, then continue with pacts and wards? This is especially so when Summoners are in the support role. The straight damage role is the avatar/summoner dual combo.

My summoner is dusty, but all the AoE tend to be short lived unless a player is "significantly" geared passed the skill cap. War cry is one of the shortest, though the doulbe attack favor is nice. When a summoner is buff player groups, dropping a strike and wards takes 1min each..usually back to back. That leaves players with around 45-50 seconds of "down time" or regular avatar melee. Since spirits are super quick to summon, you know have an opportunity for at most 1 spell. Unfortunately it'll be a enfeeb which makes spirits useless. If it were a garunteed nuke, more player I think would whip it out. If the cycle was nuke > enfeeb > nuke etc.. More players could factor this in as a "free" bloodpact.
I'm reminded of BLM camp against mob Summoners... 9/10 an elemental will lead with the "big nukes" while player spirits 9/10 will lead with a buff or enfeeb.

When a summoner player is playing solo, then yes it'll be pointless to play the summon/dismiss game.

[Soranika]

Spirits are unreliable, even during the down time. There's no point to summon an avatar to use BP: Rage then release to summon a spirit that probably would take that full 45-50 seconds before it even starts to cast a spell. You'd be better off switching between avatars for BP: Rage and BP: Wards for buffs/enfeebs respectfully. With timing, you can reliably pump out a rage and ward blood pact without any less than 5-10 seconds of downtime. With perfect pacing, you can summon a spirit for elemental siphon without breaking your stride.

Elemental spirits are still vastly weak and the player SMN spirits aren't as great as mob SMN spirits.

[Malamasala]

There's no point to summon an avatar to use BP: Rage then release to summon a spirit that probably would take that full 45-50 minutes before it even starts to cast a spell.

I like your mistake there, since it does actually take 45-50 MINUTES if you are fighting easy prey mobs that die before the spirit starts casting. (Actually it takes infinite time, but 45-50 minutes is more funny since it is meant to be seconds)

[Razushu]

The interesting part is that you think a spirit beating an avatar would mean they are better in all situations. It is actually possible to make spirits better DDs than avatars, on monsters who do not resist magic or cast stunga/sleepga/silencega. Because Avatars would still be better on those. And as long as avatars are better, there is nothing to complain about, is there?

Still the most simple solution is to just combine/merge spirits and avatars with some kind of favor or something (spirit's favor), since then everyone wins. Both pro-spirit and pro-avatar. The only problem is if SE thinks it is unbalanced with siphon pet always available, and two pets to absorb damage (I doubt they'd be able to fight two different monsters though).

The possibilities with spirits are endless, but it requires someone to actually work on them.

I think you're misunderstanding me, I don't for a second think SE will ever buff spirits to surpass in any area, from a storyline pov, and the way only NMs and Dyna SMNs get Avatars(the other chumps are stuck with spirits). Avatars already get better magic damage choices than spirits, both in reliablity and potency.

I'm not against a buff to spirits, like yours mentioned here, it does satisfy both parties, and it buff spirits in a way that doesn't fill an already filled role. Which is the only way work on spirits wouldn't be wasted in the long run.

[Soranika]

I like your mistake there, since it does actually take 45-50 MINUTES if you are fighting easy prey mobs that die before the spirit starts casting. (Actually it takes infinite time, but 45-50 minutes is more funny since it is meant to be seconds)
LOL yeah I meant seconds, not minutes. xD

[Zemarin]

Spirits should just take less time to cast less... end of Story.

Oh ya and not be dumb about it.

[Tannlore]

The only things spirits need are:

1)A fix to their AI (no you don't have to spam burn/choke/frost/etc. over and over again)
2)The new tier spells that have been added post 75

Their casting times are just fine as they are now. Are you staking your skill/gear like you should to encourage them to cast faster? Or are you using what ever you have on, and tossing out any old spirit contrary to day/weather as you see fit?

What I don't understand is..... Why on earth would you want these things to come close to the level of your avatars? In all honestly they were put in back in the day for people to use when they couldn't GET the avatars to begin with. I know this is entirely hard to imagine now, but back then when they came out it was HARD to get them. Hell, having Fenrir was a massive achievement all unto itself. Not everyone had people who could run them to the cloisters to get the avatars for them, and back then those fights were difficult for people to accomplish until gear/skill improved.

[Malamasala]

1)A fix to their AI (no you don't have to spam burn/choke/frost/etc. over and over again)

I've always said they need a spell cycle. Starting point should be unknown, but it should go something like debuff > nuke > debuff > nuke. And since starting point is unknown, it is possible to go nuke > debuff > nuke > debuff. It should only depend on when summoned, since if it depended on assault, you wouldn't be guaranteed the next spell after a debuff is a nuke if a monster died between.