Hate reset and you, why the devs are lazy

[Juilan]

It has frustratingly come to my attention that to increase difficulty, the devs added hate reset to many many new NMs over the past year. I assert they did introduced this horrid system to accomplish one thing, artificially increasing the difficulty of the monsters. News flash devs, increasing the difficulty of the monster(s) should be adding tp moves that can wipe people under certain conditions (think spike flail) high attack, moves that easily wipe shadows. All add direct challenge.... BUT making it so NMs can drop hate on the target completely removes the reason for "tank jobs" and makes low manning things, which can be easily done through out the rest of the content, ridiculously hard. We don't need monsters that use a move and then kills the whm other than the fact the devs want it to S E E M harder... SO drop all these update ideas and just get rid of these obnoxious hate reset things. Or outsource your code to some of the community members and have us remove ever line that allows this dynamic... JUST FIX IT

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Resident evil effect. Here's your 2 bullets to kill 10 zombies. Hard huh?

[Juilan]

Well that would be more satisfying than having the monster kill the white mages after using a tp move due to the sheer fact that it wipes the current target's enmity to 0 ? And I never had an issue with ammo in Resident Evil, I cleared a few iterations of the first one on hard mode with just a knife, was challenging and satisfying. This issue is also why some people think paladin is gimp, if you can get hate back by hitting the thing hard enough you mitigate the effect, but if you go to 0 the next swing is not soon enough.

I'd enjoy monsters like AV, but with easier to find gimmicks to help you kill it, not staggers that temporarily enfeeble. The hate reset on monsters makes me want to offer the devs a tanto then tell them to do the honorable thing every time it happens....

[noodles355]

So take two tanks to your hate-reset mob. Not rocket surgery.

[Rearden]

But when the hate reset move is used multiple times in a row...

Gimmick abilities/TP moves seem to have become the norm.

Khim/Cerb were perfect examples of good mobs for their time - neither were particularily hard, but both could easily defeat you. They both had a super TP move that could wipe your alliance, and they both had means to stop you from doing damage to them. (Magma Hoplon - stoneskin/Tenebrous Mist - TP reset) These moves were used often, making good tanks that could hold hate and good teamwork regarding stuns a necessity.

They were both easily tanked by a SAM/NIN eventually, but yeah.

[Runespider]

should be adding tp moves that can wipe people under certain conditions (think spike flail) high attack

If Square want TP moves to be a difficulty factor they need to remove them from the logs, people use bots to stun these moves now very widely so any difficulty is void.

[Leonlionheart]

If Square want TP moves to be a difficulty factor they need to remove them from the logs, people use bots to stun these moves now very widely so any difficulty is void.

Have them resist stun. Force the party to eat the TP move, and thus need a tank.

Let it have a few seconds to charge, as to let the party run out of range or die, and only have the tank survive.

IDK there's tons of ways around it.

[Mirabelle]

Really don't see how hate reset moves are anymore "cheap" than many of the other TP moves NM's have. Having to re-establish hate is a skill parties have to learn. WHM's shouldn't use high hate cures at that point, Tanks should quickly pull out their hate establishing JA's and spells, melee and BLM should lay off. It's not terribly awful.

Dealing with mobs that have silence aura on BLU annoys me far more.

[Malamasala]

Hahahaha.

Hate reset - silly gimmick.
Spike flail - Awesome difficulty increase.

I repeat. Hahahahaha.

[Darkwizardzin]

So take two tanks to your hate-reset mob. Not rocket surgery.

QFT..... OP is hate reset annoying? yes it is... but it's also not hard to deal with. It looks like to me you just wiped to a monster that had a hate reset move and you have come in here to rant about it to make yourself feel better.

[Bubeeky]

it's been said before, but it bears repeating...hate reset isn't any cheaper than any other TP move, it's a valid tactic just like all the other things that the monsters use....what's cheaper is when they introduce something that's EXACTLY the same as silence, but because it's called mute instead of silence, it can't be cured, that's cheapness lol

[Byrth]

SE's continued failure to fix the Enmity system has resulted in hate resets becoming commonplace. It's so easy for melee (and even PLDs) to hold hate over decent WHMs that the only way to restore any kind of challenge to the hate system is to introduce common resets. The system needs a substantial re-work, and the FFXI crew lacks the manpower to do it.

[Juilan]

SE's continued failure to fix the Enmity system has resulted in hate resets becoming commonplace. It's so easy for melee (and even PLDs) to hold hate over decent WHMs that the only way to restore any kind of challenge to the hate system is to introduce common resets. The system needs a substantial re-work, and the FFXI crew lacks the manpower to do it.
hence why i say they're lazy


QFT..... OP is hate reset annoying? yes it is... but it's also not hard to deal with. It looks like to me you just wiped to a monster that had a hate reset move and you have come in here to rant about it to make yourself feel better.

no, i find it overly tedious when they just spam these hate reset moves, it feels wrong to me when its done, on whm blm or any other job you don't have the option to shed hate on certain things aside from enmity douse every ten minutes why should the mosters have the ability to do it when ever the random number generator pulls it up as their next tp move? They're are some monsters that just shed hate when ever they use a tp move.


Really don't see how hate reset moves are anymore "cheap" than many of the other TP moves NM's have. Having to re-establish hate is a skill parties have to learn. WHM's shouldn't use high hate cures at that point, Tanks should quickly pull out their hate establishing JA's and spells, melee and BLM should lay off. It's not terribly awful.


as for the high enmity cure spells, when the hate reset literally drops you to zero cure one is a high enmity cure spell

what I'm getting at is this is an increasingly annoying tactic that is being added to every NM and does not increase the difficulty just the tedium of the monster. I'd play BLM more if I could say shed hate after a -ja spell or stun or break, why should the monster I'm fighting have the same luxury ?



Hahahaha.

Hate reset - silly gimmick.
Spike flail - Awesome difficulty increase.

I repeat. Hahahahaha.
you try to solo tank things like that, its like pulling teeth to get extra people in abyssea if they don't want the seal you're not after, the wing attack fafnid did was the real hard part of the fight and it was avoided by having less melee on it and using smn and blm. spike flail was an example of something that from my experience made the fights harder for the sheer fact if you werent on the correct spot of the foot the monster would turn and kill the zone. i'd be happy with Chain Spell Manafont Meteor on some of the NMs they introduced rather than having them shed hate at a whim. Sure most NMs with hate reset moves can have their ability easily subverted with even stunners/stun bots as one of the posters remarked, but this is abyssea where you're timed for your stay, you can't get that many people to assist you with a kill. Or better yet come over to siren and co-tank with me

[Darkwizardzin]

....OP hate reset is in this game because it makes the fight harder to deal with (or more annoying if nothing else). The point of nm in general is for the player to beat them dispite there annoying/hard to deal with attacks. The fact that hate reset got you so worked up to post that the devs are being lazy for adding this is proof of this. It's proof that the attack is annoying... proof that the attack can defeat a party and the fact that there are people still killing these monsters mean it's proof that hate reset doesn't make the monster unkillable. In short you're mad because the devs are doing there job...(and you're not gonna sit here and tell me all the nms in abyssea/voidwatch use hate reset because that is not only not true but I don't even think half of them do... which means the devs aren't being lazy and giving all the nms this move like you claim)

You can keep conplaining about this if you want OP but not only are you not gonna get many to support you.. but your not gonna change SE's mind and make them stop adding this to future nms. So if I were you i'd get over it.

[Ravenmore]

Have them resist stun. Force the party to eat the TP move, and thus need a tank.

Let it have a few seconds to charge, as to let the party run out of range or die, and only have the tank survive.

IDK there's tons of ways around it.

This so much. Could even give it a little count down and if the tank is not geared for it not even great gear just have smart gear. If only SE could make a mob like this. Hi utima what you been up to. >.>

[Byrth]

The Dev team uses Hate resets to add difficulty to fights because the Enmity system isn't difficult to control without them, which is the OP's issue and why he thinks they're lazy.

It's similar to how massive damage AoE spam is the only way to make fights really difficult these days, because we have enough sources of damage reduction/mitigation that anything else is a joke. Notice a trend in Voidwatch and off new Dynamis NMs? Too bad they shot themselves in the foot with Earthen Armor/Schzero.

[Sparthos]

I find the Arch Dynamis Lord to be an example of dev laziness.

If zerging the first DL wasnt mindless enough, you now get another zerg battle except wait for it... he spawns clones that force you to disengage and find the correct one to attack.

Coming off Fiat Lux which was far better in design, we get ADL. Yeah..

[Rearden]

ITT: People think multiple hate resets are easy to manage because FFXI = Abyssea

[svengalis]

I think hate reset makes things more interesting I like it.

[Romanova]

SE's continued failure to fix the Enmity system has resulted in hate resets becoming commonplace. It's so easy for melee (and even PLDs) to hold hate over decent WHMs that the only way to restore any kind of challenge to the hate system is to introduce common resets. The system needs a substantial re-work, and the FFXI crew lacks the manpower to do it.

^ this is my only beef with the reset. The fact they're doing it on so many mobs just because they don't seem to understand how to fix the enmity cap is silly. Having it on a mob is fine, but when almost every mob has it for a "band-aid" solution, then there's a problem.

[Leonlionheart]

^ this is my only beef with the reset. The fact they're doing it on so many mobs just because they don't seem to understand how to fix the enmity cap is silly. Having it on a mob is fine, but when almost every mob has it for a "band-aid" solution, then there's a problem.

I don't think it's that they don't understand how to fix it, but rather that they literally can't. As much as it seems like SE is dealing with a bunch of idiots on their development teams for all games from the last 5 years(EXCEPT, of course, Kingdom Hearts games and The World Ends With You), I don't think they are.

It'd probably take some of the original developers and scripters to change such a fundamental code in the game. That would take a huge amount of effort and money to do.

Plus, there's always the chance the new system is worse than the old, and then all that money goes to waste because they lose memberships and have to redo it again.

[Thonuwan]

I am not a programmer and know almost nothing about coding, but one problem I foresee with trying to adjust the hate system would be that it could affect so many other aspects of the game. The hate system could be so integral to how battles happen and how monsters have been designed that a good amount of the game will just collapse and need to be overhauled. I stress possibly.

If we could get a redesign of some of the hate system I would like to see monster AI that focuses on different jobs. For instance some mobs might focus down the healers unless the tanks can keep its attention. I think that would make for an interesting, and possibly more difficult, approach to fighting.

[Leonlionheart]

If we could get a redesign of some of the hate system I would like to see monster AI that focuses on different jobs. For instance some mobs might focus down the healers unless the tanks can keep its attention. I think that would make for an interesting, and possibly more difficult, approach to fighting.

Certain NMs where magic just causes large amounts of Enmity would be interesting, but again hard to balance since it would cap easily. Increase spike enmity from magic maybe, then make it decay faster similar to provoke is a possibility.

Honestly though I think we just need harder and more challenging NM fights. Similar to Kirin pre-zerg.

[Romanova]

I just don't see the logic in caring that much about old content. I think that's the biggest "failure" of ffxi. The want to keep old content relevant really messes up the chance to improve on future content. Who cares if it makes old content even easier if it means new stuff can be more challenging rather than the same move over and over again.



Also they never ever ever should have worked in small numbers. I hoped so badly they wouldn't do that with ff14, but they did it again lol.

[Thonuwan]

I draw a line between the hate system being "old content" and "integral to the system". If things are taken too far then the game isn't the same. It would be a different MMO with the same name.

EDIT: Then again, some would argue that the game now doesn't much resemble the game from years ago. AND i will admit that I like nostalgia, that feeling of having the old stuff but I will also welcome anything that the devs bring us.

[Leonlionheart]

I just don't see the logic in caring that much about old content. I think that's the biggest "failure" of ffxi. The want to keep old content relevant really messes up the chance to improve on future content. Who cares if it makes old content even easier if it means new stuff can be more challenging rather than the same move over and over again.



Also they never ever ever should have worked in small numbers. I hoped so badly they wouldn't do that with ff14, but they did it again lol.

I think it's best that they rehash old content since they can't make large amounts of new content due to lolPS2 players. It's also cheaper, and there's a good portion of players who have never done a lot of old endgame because it was so time consuming/life consuming.

[Romanova]

I think it's best that they rehash old content since they can't make large amounts of new content due to lolPS2 players. It's also cheaper, and there's a good portion of players who have never done a lot of old endgame because it was so time consuming/life consuming.

They keep making new content, that's not an excuse. ps2 limitiations has nothing to do with the difficulty of voidwatch/aby/etc,

And if they worry about the hate caps for new content it would just make old ones even easier for those players when didn't get to try it before.

[SpankWustler]

I just don't see the logic in caring that much about old content. I think that's the biggest "failure" of ffxi. The want to keep old content relevant really messes up the chance to improve on future content. Who cares if it makes old content even easier if it means new stuff can be more challenging rather than the same move over and over again.

This to infinity. In fact, becoming easier or even inexplicably harder due to spaghetti code would make old content MORE relevant since it wouldn't be the same thing for the six-hundredth and third time.

Who cares if some changes to the enmity system make Kirin or Jailer of Love act funny. Those monsters are so old that it could just be written off as senile dementia, anyway. That's no reason to hold off on it.

I guess changing that part of the code could be harder than herding unfed greased weasels through the eye of a moving needle, though. Given the whacky stuff that happens after most updates, in fact, it probably is.

Still, it would be nice to have meaningful and logical changes to the enmity system and for hate resets to be used only by select Notorious Monsters in creative ways. It would also be nice if I could ride around town in a chariot drawn by a dozen lions. Both, sadly, seem unlikely.

[Byrth]

I don't think we're exactly going to be getting a ton of "new content" at this point. We might as well not break the old stuff. But yeah, the whole "They can't change it because it'd probably break a bunch of ghettocoded old content that no one on the current team wrote" is what I meant when I said they don't have the manpower to do it.

[Leonlionheart]

They keep making new content, that's not an excuse. ps2 limitiations has nothing to do with the difficulty of voidwatch/aby/etc,

And if they worry about the hate caps for new content it would just make old ones even easier for those players when didn't get to try it before.

The influx of new graphical content essentially stopped after ToAU. WoTG and Abyssea are all rehashed over old zones, so is Voidwatch. Difficulty obviously has nothing to do with it. They could do "Heroic" versions of Sky/Sea/Limbus/etc very easily, for level 99 caps.

[Romanova]

The influx of new graphical content essentially stopped after ToAU. WoTG and Abyssea are all rehashed over old zones, so is Voidwatch. Difficulty obviously has nothing to do with it. They could do "Heroic" versions of Sky/Sea/Limbus/etc very easily, for level 99 caps.


my point still stands then :P

[Alhanelem]

They were both easily tanked by a SAM/NIN eventually, but yeah. Thus why they had to come up with new ideas. You're not making much of a case for this thread.

I don't mind "gimmicky" special abilities as long as they don't unfairly target certain jobs to be left behind, e.g. making some monster magic immune most of the time, or auras that completely debilitate either melees or mages or certain jobs in particular. Basically, there should always be more than one reasonably plausible way of winning.

[Juilan]

After reading these posts my point still stands on some of the monster's use of hate reset. look at Teugghia who only has one TP move... which erases hate on the current target. in my opinion, that is an over use of their new gimmick the hate reset on, say Sobek, I don't get nearly as pissed off about he uses it when he uses petra gaze (or w/e), I noticed on Sedna and the Pug before hand, they tend to do hate reset on a spell cast... which can be avoided with the correct set up. I can count off numbers of monsters that reset hate, but at least they dont have a 100% chance of doing so.

Tiamat Vrtra and Jormmie can do a hate reset move, but they didn't spam it... Then again that content wasn't, at the time, "low man stuff". Sure it'd kill a few mages, and it was annoying, but I expected that because they were seen as "hard monsters". In contrast, the abyssea monsters that piss me off are insidiously easy expect they can use a move and kill an entire four man group when they do it. making it a gimmick and an arbitrary difficulty boost.

I digress though, if they didn't put it on nearly every monster and gave it to them under certain conditions I'd be fine with it. The laziness in my eyes comes from the over use.

And yes, when it's on at or about, if not more, than 50% of the newly introduced NMs, its a gimmick...

I hope that if they keep this dead horse going they at least give everyone job an enmity douse move or could they come straight out and admit thats what they gave us for VIT lowering crit dmg and agi increasing subtle blow... which is a horrible trade off




SE's continued failure to fix the Enmity system has resulted in hate resets becoming commonplace. It's so easy for melee (and even PLDs) to hold hate over decent WHMs that the only way to restore any kind of challenge to the hate system is to introduce common resets. The system needs a substantial re-work, and the FFXI crew lacks the manpower to do it.

]^ this is my only beef with the reset. The fact they're doing it on so many mobs just because they don't seem to understand how to fix the enmity cap is silly. Having it on a mob is fine, but when almost every mob has it for a "band-aid" solution, then there's a problem.

<3

[Juilan]

....OP hate reset is in this game because it makes the fight harder to deal with (or more annoying if nothing else).

You don't make new friends by annoying the player base :p



Thus why they had to come up with new ideas. You're not making much of a case for this thread.

I don't mind "gimmicky" special abilities as long as they don't unfairly target certain jobs to be left behind, e.g. making some monster magic immune most of the time, or auras that completely debilitate either melees or mages or certain jobs in particular. Basically, there should always be more than one reasonably plausible way of winning.

You also don't make new friends when you alienate part of the player base~

[Alhanelem]

You don't make new friends by annoying the player base :p




You also don't make new friends when you alienate part of the player base~
You also dont make new friends when you tell other people how they don't make friends.

[Duelle]

Have them resist stun. Force the party to eat the TP move, and thus need a tank.You'd have to tune damage in a way that the group eating said TP move doesn't mean a near wipe, while adjusting healing to be easier to use in the context of alliance damage. I know its a bit on the hyperbole side, but that's the way things have been for several years now. Hence why everyone and their mother was so focused on avoiding damage altogether when possible (hi2u, PLD/NIN).

On topic, there's very little that can be done to the game's encounters due to, as has been said, all the tons of legacy code that have been there since the game launched. Monster behavior has been set to be a certain way, with certain parameters and resources that are there, for better or worse (monsters being reliant on TP as a resource falling into the "worse" category). As such, they can't really add many new mechanics to bosses to simulate difficulty. Not to mention you'd have to tune all 20 jobs to perform in synch with the new mob mechanics.

[Juilan]

You'd have to tune damage in a way that the group eating said TP move doesn't mean a near wipe, while adjusting healing to be easier to use in the context of alliance damage. I know its a bit on the hyperbole side, but that's the way things have been for several years now. Hence why everyone and their mother was so focused on avoiding damage altogether when possible (hi2u, PLD/NIN).

you forgot having smn avatars as the main dmg

[Rearden]

you forgot having smn avatars as the main dmg

This. The only reason Khim/Cerb/Tia/Etc became easy fights were because you either started using SMN's low man, or Zerging and eating deaths with SAM's/BLMs and a few SMNs thrown in to use Odin.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

They can't fix the hate system IN ABYSSEA because they already added the atmas that make DDs do such ridiculously huge amounts of damage the only way to get hate off them is to do even more ridiculously huge amounts of damage. Good thing one of the tank jobs was originally designed as a DD! -- the other one is horribly screwed though.

I bet they're quite capable of making less squishy mobs where hate can come from sources other than doing the most damage -- outside abyssea. We'll find out in 6 months to a year, maybe sooner.

[Darkwizardzin]

You don't make new friends by annoying the player base :p

....Thank you for proving my point even more (a point that clearly you missed/ignored by the fact that all you took from my post was the first sentance). Enjoy whining about somthing that will never be changed (and should never be changed I might add).

[Malacite]

Resident evil effect. Here's your 2 bullets to kill 10 zombies. Hard huh?

That'd be funny if Capcom hadn't thrown that approach out the window since RE4 (much to my chagrin)


And yeah, hate resets suck. But that's (supposedly) what we have PLD for.

[SpankWustler]

I don't think we're exactly going to be getting a ton of "new content" at this point. We might as well not break the old stuff.

True. It's just nice to let out a wail of lament that nobody felt the need to dedicate time to adjusting the enmity system along with the level cap increase and the release of Abyssea - Places.

The therapeutic benefit of wailing in lament is not to be underestimated. It's the singular reason for most songs written between 1980 and 1990, after all. Well, that and guys with big hair needing more cocaine.

[Dragoy]

To certain extent, I thought losing the enmity of a certain target was all right, but at some point it became really annoying, the more I encountered it.

I think only thing I am more disgruntled about are the cheating NMs using Death (I hate Xibalba, with a passion) or abilities that have the same effect (for example Sobek, which does not always have the effect but it's still nothing fun, and far from adding to the game as challenging).

Often the 'hate-reset' is not a big issue for me, if I can re-gain the attention of the monster quickly enough via Provoke and or physical hits. But sometimes it simply takes a while, and/or the monster likes to do it all the frickin' time, which again is not fun, nor adding to the game as a challenge.

I don't think even Paladins get much more, if at all, pleasure from these moments as any other job does due to how enmity works...


In short: I don't think it's a needed feature ('hate-reset'), at all.
Just my thoughts. ^^


Edit:

Forgot to add that it's in the same category of annoying things to me as monster immunities go, e.g., why give us silencing and stunning abilities if the monsters just resist it. Though this is far less annoying, but sort of in the same place as it essentially seems like cheating.

I agree to certain enemies being resistant to certain spells for example, but it has become nearly a rule now which is just disappointing...

[Mordanthos]

I think there is two ideas that could be implemented. 1st is when enemies hate reset, it effects the whole party or alliance. This makes more sense to me. Which would still require enmity building-up time.

And the 2nd is an alteration of the first idea, where all mobs/NM's have a time limit and then hate reset everyone. If they cant change the enmity cap, then make the cap reset itself after a minute or two. At least this way, PLD's have a chance to "keep" agro, by establishing "new" hate, and again capping it before everyone else. But that goes for any tank really, but would increasingly help PLD do their job. Or everyone can be a jerk and race to the cap to see who dies first. Whatever you want. I like Option 2. If you cant raise cap hate, then make cap hate reset itself at certain intervals.

And if they cant "raise" the hate cap, then they almost have no choice but to start practicing the 2nd option.

[noodles355]

But when the hate reset move is used multiple times in a row...Limit TP feed. I can't think of any monsters off the top of my head that have back-to-back enmity reset abilites. Nor AoE enmity reset. There are a few conal/breath enmity reset, but I can't think of a 360 degrees AoE enmity reset move.

[geekgirl101]

If I recall SE didn't want NINs to be tanks in the first place and wanted PLDs to be tanks, which is why they added enmity reduction each time a shadow was absorbed. Unfortunately PLDs are far from effective tanks in Abyssea. Some do manage to make good tanks, but most just don't have the gear or the skills. PLD damage is very weak and their hate is something that has to build up over time. In mid-fight if a mob resets hate that means everyone has to stop what they're doing so the PLD can generate threat again, which requires a lot of cooperation and luck. It's not a great idea, as the OP has stated if you want to make the game harder then introduce more devastating attacks that could make or break an alliance, like requires people to cooperate and be on their toes and utilising all their abilities.

[Rearden]

Limit TP feed. I can't think of any monsters off the top of my head that have back-to-back enmity reset abilites. Nor AoE enmity reset. There are a few conal/breath enmity reset, but I can't think of a 360 degrees AoE enmity reset move.

I can think of AoE hate reset, ones that do it back to back, etc.

[Orlind]

I can think of AoE hate reset, ones that do it back to back, etc.

If the NM in question is really doing hate resets back to back (which sounds like too much TP feed), wouldn't it be possible to force it to do that TP move enough times to reset everyone in your group? Then it would be a simple matter of the tank(s) establishing hate again.

[Rearden]

Hate reset moves are usually pretty solid damage as well, AoE ones I'm thinking of have negative effects, eg being slept.

[noodles355]

Would be nice if you would share the NMs you're thinking of. No idea why you think it needs to be secret.

If you're thinking of NMs that get a complete alliance-wide enmity reset move, then they are even easier. One VE move (eg. Provoke for Nin, Flash for Pld) and they have hate again.

If there are mobs that have AoE hate reset that is a fixed AoE range and not alliance wide, then it's still pretty simple to counter for good players.

1) Everyone will be watching their own hate to make sure it's not getting too high. A 2nd tank will be standing with backlines, but generating CE at a rate where he's 2nd on the hate list. Thus when the mob does his enmity-reset move on the first tank, he goes for the 2nd. Then the first one slowly builds up to try and be 2nd on the list again. Hard for some I guess, but good groups dont have trouble with this.

[Orlind]

Yeah, it would be nice if you specified what NMs you're talking about. I haven't fought/tanked any NMs with hate reset moves that couldn't be handled in some way or another. This includes NMs that spams such moves.

On a side note, I actually found dealing with various types of hate reset a nice way to sync myself with whatever group I go with. Very nice to know the tendencies of my teammates, especially if I plan to play with them for a while.

[Rearden]

No one has claimed it to be difficult, we've said it's a gimmick way of making it 'more' difficult.

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Voidwatch

Sallow Seymour, Pancimanci, Krabimanjaro, Ogbunabali, Murk-Veined Baneberry, Akupara all have hate reset moves, the other mobs cast/insta-cast death. Some of them charm, some of them have potent regain and require no TP/reason to spam spells or TP moves. All of them go batshit under 50-25%.

Again, no one is saying this is hard or unbeatable, because we do beat it. We are saying it's a gimmick increase in difficulty.

[Orlind]

Looking at the NMs you listed, I still don't see anything too different from other variants of the same families. Even when spammed, I still don't see a reason to view them as just gimmicks. Otherwise, I might have to view Death and Doom as gimmicks as well and that just opens a whole can of worms.

And yeah you're right, none of them are difficult to deal with and are actually fun when people panic over voice chat.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

No one has claimed it to be difficult, we've said it's a gimmick way of making it 'more' difficult.


Compared to what? With the damage players can put out now, just increasing the HP isn't going to make something difficult, only longer. Increasing the damage will just increase dependence on shadows to avoid the damage. New mechanics are the only way to create some challenge that can't be easily handled by the same means that dealt with all the previous fights that used the old mechanics.

An increase in difficulty has to come from something new because more of the same isn't difficult.

[Cursed]

SE should hire some of the FFXI community members and just have them toss out ideas all day for a summer or something.
90% of the suggestions on these forums are utter rubish, coming from people who say "my twilight belt beats your black belt" and "PLD needs berserker stance". But at least 5% are superior to anything I've seen the Dev team impliment, and the remaining 5%, if implimented, could see FFXI actually start to grow in terms of player numbers.

[Duelle]

An increase in difficulty has to come from something new because more of the same isn't difficult.Which goes back to the topic of whether anything new can be introduced to create a challenging encounter. I can't help much in that department, as my frame of reference is based around Lineage II (which tend to be "throw bodies and damage until it dies") and WoW raids (which have so many crazy mechanics depending on the tier, most of which would not be supported by FFXI's engine).

[Yugl]

I personally don't notice hate reset even if it is common. That's probably because it's about as insignificant as any other Sobek-fight-related complaint. If they want to add "difficulty", they can add precision based skills, but that tends to **** over people with poor connection.