Thank You SE and Good-bye

[Glacont]

Before I begin this is no way an attack, but rather an brief letter to SE.

Thank You

You guys have been doing alot these pass years trying to appease the masses, which is in no way is an easy task. A number of things do come to Mind.

1) Dismantling the 'HNM Mentality' and Establishing Low-Man Tactics with Just Rewards.

Salvage
Assault = Low-man Training

2) Making HNM Rewards more accessable, rather than dealing with botters at camps.

Einherjar

3) Taking strides to bring certains jobs to the forefront that was left behind.

Homam Gear

4) Extending Soul Voice, Cor Buffs, reducing the 'need' to purchase food at every turn, and making us all into gods.

Abyssea
*True enough there is Alot to be said for raising your job the old fashion way, but I done that already prior to the level cap raise, so it's not a problem for Me.

5) Attemtping to Breath Life back into Crafting

Synergy
*You're on the right track. A litte more tweaking needs to be Done.

6) After Two Applications You Finally make weapons more Attainable and Truly Powerful.
*No Disrespect to Relic or Mythic Weilders. You've Earned Your Place.

7) Gear Sets that can be used as a set, without the need to rely upon mix-match.
AF3

*Yes, Some Gamers still do it, but it is not so much of a Cane as it was in the days of 75.

8) Storage of EX/RARE, Job Change & Travel Made Easy

Porter Moogle, Mules, Nomad Moogle
Abyssea, Void, Outpost, and WotG Npcs

*Some say this is way over due, but I am happy for the gesture.


9) So Many Job Abilities upgrades per jobs.
*This Shows You've put time and effort.

I am sure alot more things should be mention, but these are the core in My Mind.

Good-Bye


Alot of progress has been made within FFXI, however, with the New Payment plan I won't be able to enjoy them. This switch in finances threatens many members to reconsider their subscription. Nevertheless, There is still time to make amends. I offer two suggestions.

One: Allow Direct withdrawl from a banking account to still be an option. Crysta can remain a choice, but allow Direct Withdrawl to stand along side it. (This alone will prevent a number of Gamers from leaving).

Two: If a Third Party is what Your after then Choose Paypal. Disolve the contract You've Made with ClickandBuy. If You have doubts, then I implore You to asgin a Research Team to investigate both Companies' Success, Failures, and Personal History of Customer Services. The evidence will prove whom is worthy to do business with You and not tarnish Your Good Name.

Till Directwithdrawl is reinstated, I'll Say "Thank You SE for the Years, and Farewell." This is My Last Month.

Glacont
2004 - August 2011

[This last piece I wish to address My Fellow Gamers. Even though this is a Letter from Myself to SE, and is not an debate over a choosen topic, I welcome all constructive views, however, any negative, sarcastic comments... and yes, even those I know so much eyes '>.>' I will not respond to. Take Care, Everyone].

[Michae]

I think alot of us long time gamers are leaving vanadeal to the recents....sad days.

[Niyariko]

/salute aaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Korpg]

See ya next month

[Panthera]

In before this thread gets nuked. Nuked into oblivion. It's not a question of "if", but "how soon." Funny how some threads are immortal, and some have a short life-expectancy.

For me, it's more that they've made so many changes I don't like that I'm not going through a shady website like Click'n Buy to keep doing this, it's not worth it. Abyssea, GoV and uncapped missions have obliterated the challenge of the game. There's a fraction of up-to-date events as there were about 2 years ago. And for all inconvenience and risk of the new payment system, we have no idea where we're headed. Will there ever be a new full blown expansion? Will mini-expansions have new zones and new mobs in the future? Or is FFXI "going green" and recycling everything?

If there were a fair payment system, there's just barely enough to do, as long as they don't involve challenge. There's crafting, socializing, you know, girl's game stuff. But what we have right now is not worth the risk or inconvenience with the payment options that are being instituted.

[Runespider]

In before this thread gets nuked. Nuked into oblivion. It's not a question of "if", but "how soon." Funny how some threads are immortal, and some have a short life-expectancy.

For me, it's more that they've made so many changes I don't like that I'm not going through a shady website like Click'n Buy to keep doing this, it's not worth it. Abyssea, GoV and uncapped missions have obliterated the challenge of the game. There's a fraction of up-to-date events as there were about 2 years ago. And for all inconvenience and risk of the new payment system, we have no idea where we're headed. Will there ever be a new full blown expansion? Will mini-expansions have new zones and new mobs in the future? Or is FFXI "going green" and recycling everything?

If there were a fair payment system, there's just barely enough to do, as long as they don't involve challenge. There's crafting, socializing, you know, girl's game stuff. But what we have right now is not worth the risk or inconvenience with the payment options that are being instituted.

This is exactly how I feel, I like FFXI and I would carry on paying for it if they didn't mess with the payment options but given just how boring XI is right now with almost no worthwhile content being added it's hard to justify all the hassle and shadey stuff going on.

[Malamasala]

In before this thread gets nuked. Nuked into oblivion. It's not a question of "if", but "how soon." Funny how some threads are immortal, and some have a short life-expectancy.

Think it depends on content. SE doesn't need 10 threads about billing issues. They can keep one 1000 post long one and keep track just fine.

[Tinuviel]

I haven't looked at the new payment policy at all, so call me clueless. I have been play FFXI heavily for 10 years now. I don't plan to change my payment arrangement with SE at all, and honestly, I haven't been formally contacted by SE to tell me that my existing payment arrangement will be nullified. If thats what happens, I will just consider that SE has shutdown my account after 10 years of dedicated participation in their game. Hey, maybe its time to move on.

[Babekeke]

I made the point to swiftly move over to the new payment option simply so as to not miss out on the "reward item"... unfortunately I didn't think to look and see what it was before I did so. lolwarptochocobocircuit. Maybe it will have some use if you can exit to any of the areas it connects to when you use it. Maybe.
I'm covered for fraud, and my bank account has insurance to cover it, so I'm not worried about hacking. Not that there's ever anything worth stealing from it these days with the price of fuel and food rising all the time >< Might as well give Click and Buy a try.

[Zumi]

I haven't looked at the new payment policy at all, so call me clueless. I have been play FFXI heavily for 10 years now. I don't plan to change my payment arrangement with SE at all, and honestly, I haven't been formally contacted by SE to tell me that my existing payment arrangement will be nullified. If thats what happens, I will just consider that SE has shutdown my account after 10 years of dedicated participation in their game. Hey, maybe its time to move on.

Obviously you seen the posts on the Playonline site or seen the ingame announcements. You won't be able to log in Sept. 1st if you don't transfer your account to the SE account system.

[Panthera]

Think it depends on content. SE doesn't need 10 threads about billing issues. They can keep one 1000 post long one and keep track just fine.

I don't think it's that at all. The 10 thread limit about the same topic has long been since exceeded. I think it's more the tone of the discussion. The "How much business is SE going to lose?" thread got nuked because it talked about people quitting and SE losing money. This thread is essentially the same thing. I don't expect "Goodbye FFXI" threads of any kind, be they billing or game-play, to last. Enjoy this one while you can. I could be wrong--but I doubt it.

[Heimdall]

The thing people have to get is Se isnt doing this change for any so called security or customer support. They are simply trying distance themself from direct contact to the US dollar. One the reasons they're not leting people in other countrys pay in US curency anymore. Both new systems elminates their direct contact with the dollar by 1 click and by takes on burdon of converting it to another curency themself and in turn any losses from curency flucturation with how unstable the dollar currently is and well the other SE crysta is a prepaid system. I find it highly unlikly SE even wants people using click and buy and might of effected the choise of them useing it as a option in the first place so people are more likely to use their crysta system. All it is is them trying keep some semblence of face and a pretense of fair bussiness practices by offering a 2nd option beside their own system. As i said it all comes down to them trying get away from a unstable currency and losses from flucturating exchange rates that hapeen between the initial monthly withdrawl happens and it gets to their own accounts.

[Romanova]

I haven't looked at the new payment policy at all, so call me clueless. I have been play FFXI heavily for 10 years now. I don't plan to change my payment arrangement with SE at all, and honestly, I haven't been formally contacted by SE to tell me that my existing payment arrangement will be nullified. If thats what happens, I will just consider that SE has shutdown my account after 10 years of dedicated participation in their game. Hey, maybe its time to move on.


I can't wait until sept. 1st and we see tons of threads of "WHY CAN'T I LOG IN SE?!"

[Heimdall]

I can't wait until sept. 1st and we see tons of threads of "WHY CAN'T I LOG IN SE?!"

real fun will be when everyone who switched over gets double or triple charged again when SE charges them with the new syste and old one to

[Neika]

real fun will be when everyone who switched over gets double or triple charged again when SE charges them with the new syste and old one to

I can totally see this happening! Oh and hi heim! :D

[Alhanelem]

Good bye.


real fun will be when everyone who switched over gets double or triple charged againSE has owned up to the technical problem they had that led to people paying twice to get their account back online, and refunded them the original charge. Outside of that, actual, true multi-billings are extremely rare. Almost all "double billings" were not actually double billings and were caused by people not understanding how SE charges you when you reactivate. No one has ever been "triple billed" either.

I, and I'm pretty sure no one else, got charged with both payment systems. Many of us have switched over and if that could have happened, it would have happened already because I and such people transferred before the end of July.

To the OP: If you're going to leave, just leave. No one really wants to hear why. If you really want to write a letter to SE, write a letter to them, don't post it on a forum.

[Heimdall]

Good bye.

SE has owned up to the technical problem they had that led to people paying twice to get their account back online, and refunded them the original charge. Outside of that, actual, true multi-billings are extremely rare. Almost all "double billings" were not actually double billings and were caused by people not understanding how SE charges you when you reactivate. No one has ever been "triple billed" either.

I, and I'm pretty sure no one else, got charged with both payment systems. Many of us have switched over and if that could have happened, it would have happened already because I and such people transferred before the end of July.

To the OP: If you're going to leave, just leave. No one really wants to hear why. If you really want to write a letter to SE, write a letter to them, don't post it on a forum.

except for the people who did get triple charged the ones who got double bille don old system and then billed again on new system. I personally did get double charged as i was charged for month i rectivated accout that that canceled then charged double on this billing cycle.


and hi Neika!

[Alhanelem]

except for the people who did get triple chargedNo one has been triple charged and I can't even imagine what kind of screw up it would take to make that possible, but I imagine the user would have something to do with it if it happened just as with all the false double billings that were really just previous + next months being charged at the same time (which is not a double billing), and no one got billed on both systems at the same time. It's called a TRANSFER for a reason. Once you've made the transfer, your billing information is no longer on PlayOnline.

You need to back up your claims with proof. When SE makes a mistake, they generally own up to it.t


I personally did get double charged as i was charged for month i rectivated accout that that canceled then charged double on this billing cycle. Pics of both statement and SE account history or it didn't happen, unless you're referring to the July incident which did happen but SE acknowledged it and made amends for it.

SE is far from perfect, but a few returning players misinterpreting their bill led down a slippery slope to people just assuming that SE randomly goes around multi-billing people. It just doesn't happen. Virtually all true multibillings with any business are USER error, e.g. clicking a submit button in a checkout form more than once (and these web pages almost always have a warning telling you not to click the button more than once)

In the actual event that you really do get charged for the SAME account more than once for the same period, you should take it up with SE and give them a chance to fix the mistake before you go raging on the forums about it.

[Runespider]

I can't wait until sept. 1st and we see tons of threads of "WHY CAN'T I LOG IN SE?!"

You won't, at least not on here. Square has a handy little thing to limit fallout here from this, if you can't log in to the game you can't post on here either lol

[tinydog]

can i have ur gil?

[Runespider]

can i have ur gil?

This should be changed these days to, can I have your char so I can duo/triple box...Gil is worthless now.

[Minsc]

To the OP: If you're going to leave, just leave. No one really wants to hear why.

Since when does YOU = ALL? How do you know for a fact that "no one" wants to hear why?

[Neonii]

No one has been triple charged and I can't even imagine what kind of screw up it would take to make that possible, but I imagine the user would have something to do with it if it happened just as with all the false double billings that were really just previous + next months being charged at the same time (which is not a double billing), and no one got billed on both systems at the same time. It's called a TRANSFER for a reason. Once you've made the transfer, your billing information is no longer on PlayOnline.

You need to back up your claims with proof. When SE makes a mistake, they generally own up to it.t

Pics of both statement and SE account history or it didn't happen, unless you're referring to the July incident which did happen but SE acknowledged it and made amends for it.

SE is far from perfect, but a few returning players misinterpreting their bill led down a slippery slope to people just assuming that SE randomly goes around multi-billing people. It just doesn't happen. Virtually all true multibillings with any business are USER error, e.g. clicking a submit button in a checkout form more than once (and these web pages almost always have a warning telling you not to click the button more than once)

In the actual event that you really do get charged for the SAME account more than once for the same period, you should take it up with SE and give them a chance to fix the mistake before you go raging on the forums about it.

I would not just assume folks are making stuff up. I'm curious is this opinion or fact? Do you have some inside knowledge that enables you to make statements like this? How do you know these things? Share with me your sources because what I know for a fact Is I tried to pay followed all the links and instructions but still get shut out. Everyone is not complaining just to make noise some of us are having real problems.

Edit: Another thing I know for a fact is contacting customer service more often than not results in getting a run around. I have absolutely no motivation to say anything at all in this topic except wanting SE to wake up and address my concerns.

They can nuke the thread to high heaven does not change the fact that some of us can't pay. I try to pay them and follow the instructions but keep getting hoops. Content ID's are canceled so oh well. I have been re-connecting with my other games. Maybe they will make it easier for me to pay them then I can re-open account.

Me personally quitting is not because im bored with the game i"m to new at it for that. It wont let me pay so oh well I guess they don't want my business. You can delete threads all you want to that does not change the actual facts of customers being shut out. I keep watching forums to see if anything develops but oh well.

[Alhanelem]

Edit: Another thing I know for a fact is contacting customer service more often than not results in getting a run around.It's not a fact to me, because that's never happened to me in many, many contacts with support.


You can delete threads all you want to that does not change the actual facts of customers being shut out.They don't delete threads of people being angry, they delete threads of people being inappropriate in expressing that anger. You haven't done that (though some people have).


I'm curious is this opinion or fact? Do you have some inside knowledge that enables you to make statements like this?Yes, I have the threads of many people posting on forums I've moderated asking how to get help because they think they've been double billed, I ask them if they reactivated recently and virtually every time the answer is 'yes' then I say "Check your history in playonline. You'll see that you were charged for the month you reactivated in, and the next month. They do not charge you right away for the reactivated month, because they only do charges at the end of each month (Though, with the new system, this is obsolete)."

Then they're like "Oh. Thanks for clearing that up, you're right."

[Michae]

Since when does YOU = ALL? How do you know for a fact that "no one" wants to hear why?

Because if you have been reading the forums at all you would know that Alhanelem is a forums troll that seems to feel he knows so much more about the game than others he of course has to put in his 2 cents. This is a common illness among the basement dwelling community, I frankly feel we should start an association and have a telethon to help combat this horrible social disease, but sadly very few ppl care about them or anything they say.

[Barabas]

The thing people have to get is Se isnt doing this change for any so called security or customer support. They are simply trying distance themself from direct contact to the US dollar. One the reasons they're not leting people in other countrys pay in US curency anymore. Both new systems elminates their direct contact with the dollar by 1 click and by takes on burdon of converting it to another curency themself and in turn any losses from curency flucturation with how unstable the dollar currently is and well the other SE crysta is a prepaid system. I find it highly unlikly SE even wants people using click and buy and might of effected the choise of them useing it as a option in the first place so people are more likely to use their crysta system. All it is is them trying keep some semblence of face and a pretense of fair bussiness practices by offering a 2nd option beside their own system. As i said it all comes down to them trying get away from a unstable currency and losses from flucturating exchange rates that hapeen between the initial monthly withdrawl happens and it gets to their own accounts.


I disagree with this reasoning. I think this has more to do with ensuring that SE doesn't run into the legal nightmare Sony now has after their system was hacked and information was stolen. To me they are ensuring that no customer financial information is stored on their system by using only 3rd parties. Doesn't make *us* safer, just makes SE safer from a legal standpoint. I could be totally wrong, this is just an educated guess as to the always cloudy reasons behind many SE decisions.

[Alistria]

I disagree with this reasoning. I think this has more to do with ensuring that SE doesn't run into the legal nightmare Sony now has after their system was hacked and information was stolen. To me they are ensuring that no customer financial information is stored on their system by using only 3rd parties. Doesn't make *us* safer, just makes SE safer from a legal standpoint. I could be totally wrong, this is just an educated guess as to the always cloudy reasons behind many SE decisions.

I think you may be 100% right there, especially with plans to Launch XIV on PS3, their billing is going to go through Playstation network at that point.

Honestly though I don't see why everyone is having such an issue with this. At first when SE brought in the Enhanced security with the Verified by visa/secure thing, it was the same old song and dance. Everyone demanded that be taken out. Well those people win in the way I see it because it's no longer present.

Clicknbuy is a company I've delt with in the past for a number of years now. Never had a single problem with them. That's not to say of course that others haven't, I just personally haven't so I've got near zero expectations on that point.

The game is ever so slowly having new life breathed into it which I commend the new people at SE for attempting to do. This new director has brought us more content in the past year, than we'd seen since CoP for the most part. Yes us older players are kind of alienated because the way we did things are now completely obsolete. I can understand alot of older players being irritated with that.

That's where I think alot of the real issue is and I think alot of older players are using this new payment deal as an excuse to get all hot n bothered about something and solidify their choice to leave the game. I say let them. I'll go with the whole click n buy thing for now until I have sufficient reason to do otherwise. If fraud is such a huge concern, buy a prepaid card. Don't use your bank account for it. Ohnos that means you have to leave your chair once a month to put money on the card, but hey at least if it's stolen, whoever steals it isn't going to get much more than a few dollars to play with.

[Korpg]

Except here is the problem. Nobody will be triple charged, whatever you guys think will happen.

If you get double charged, that is because you canceled and reactivated your account within the same month, which in that case you get the month after paid for. SE is not going to keep the extra charge just because you screwed up. But they will be honorable and admit that it was their mistake, even though it was really your mistake.

Fraud is such a huge word, and I can't believe you guys continue to throw it out like it was air or water or food. Look up what fraud it, and how it really affects a company, and then, you might stop using that word.

[Panthera]

Since when does YOU = ALL? How do you know for a fact that "no one" wants to hear why?

Pro tip: use the ignore list to block posts from backseat moderators who never contribute anything of substance whatsoever to any of the threads they've ever contributed to.



The game is ever so slowly having new life breathed into it which I commend the new people at SE for attempting to do. This new director has brought us more content in the past year, than we'd seen since CoP for the most part. Yes us older players are kind of alienated because the way we did things are now completely obsolete. I can understand alot of older players being irritated with that.
He's brought us less content by making older stuff obsolete, while not providing enough content new content to make up for what was lost.


That's where I think alot of the real issue is and I think alot of older players are using this new payment deal as an excuse to get all hot n bothered about something and solidify their choice to leave the game. I say let them.

In a way, I think I essentially agree with what you're saying, but I'd say it differently. I'd say it,"This is the last straw, and not worth it anymore." I wouldn't use the word "excuse," I'd say,"motivator." "Excuse" makes it sounds like it isn't a reason in and of itself. Given that we were playing what there is to play before this--but not now--Id say this reason is very real. Nothing hollow about it.

As far as,"leaving the chair once a month" goes, this is why Netflix bankrupted Blockbuster and the video store chain paradigm. Going backwards in an the age of on-demand tv and movies, Amazon, etc. is the death knell to an online game.

Maybe some people have had no problems with Click'n Buy, but there are people who have had problems with them--too many for comfort. Forcing people to buy more than they need doesn't help matters, either.

[RAIST]

I disagree with this reasoning. I think this has more to do with ensuring that SE doesn't run into the legal nightmare Sony now has after their system was hacked and information was stolen. To me they are ensuring that no customer financial information is stored on their system by using only 3rd parties. Doesn't make *us* safer, just makes SE safer from a legal standpoint. I could be totally wrong, this is just an educated guess as to the always cloudy reasons behind many SE decisions.

The problem with the whole security/liability reasoning is that it falls apart when you turn around and save all that information for one specific region. They are still open to the same security risk and subject to the same liability for the JP players, to whom they have decided to extend the previous direct biling by credit card option. They are still saving that CC info on their servers, and still processing them just as before with the POL billing system.

They appear to be simply not doing it for the NA/EU players. THAT is what the problem is. They could have just as easily extended that option to all regions, in ADDITION to adding the new options. But, for some unknown reason, they have chosen not to do so and instead are alienating a lot of loyal customers--in some cases shutting them out completely because they can't use the alternative payment methods.

[Heimdall]

Because if you have been reading the forums at all you would know that Alhanelem is a forums troll that seems to feel he knows so much more about the game than others he of course has to put in his 2 cents. This is a common illness among the basement dwelling community, I frankly feel we should start an association and have a telethon to help combat this horrible social disease, but sadly very few ppl care about them or anything they say.

ya why i'm not even bothering responding to him. simply put i've been charged in a 2 month period almost 70 dollars for my account and trying contact SE been a joke afer repeatidly waiting on live support hold system for 30 mins at time only to be cancled out with a message no agent available emails going un answered and phone support just being a perment hold it all just become on big joke. Far as what i said eariler about it beingthem trying distance them self from US dollar why else would they make people in other countrys who use pay with the dollar no longer be allowed to. There was a simular article while back about wii sales and money the company would lose due to echange rate flucturations.

[JackDaniels]

It's bad business practice to force people who have been paying the same way for nearly a decade to abruptly change the way transactions are processed. What were they thinking? If I wasn't so heavily invested into this game I would stop playing, but that's exactly what SE is banking on.

[Cursed]

So many "SE fails" comments in this thread.

Does anyone else wonder if maybe SE's actions are having the exact desired effect on FFXI?
Is it still profitable for them? Idk, they eliminated half the servers. Maybe they're way bellow the amount of subcribers they need to hit a profit. Maybe the cost of staff employed to maintain and design/redesign FFXI is greater than the combined sum of all their subscriber's fees.

Slowly killing FFXI is what I would do if I was running at a loss, and wanted to mitigate the permanent damage to my reputation among my loyal fan base.

I've always thought that Abyssea was SE's way of accelerating the demise of the game's challenge factor. (to encourage/support/initiate subscribers retirement/quit)
I think the new payment method is their way of slamming the breaks and shouting "END OF FFXI, WE'RE HERE! ALL OUT"
(the closer we get to September, the more "/rage quit" we're going to see.

I for one, am not bothered anymore. If I am unable to log in September 1st or 2nd, I will just leave it as it is until I find a reason to log on. Lvl cap rise isn't sufficient tbh.

[Panthera]

So many "SE fails" comments in this thread.

Does anyone else wonder if maybe SE's actions are having the exact desired effect on FFXI?
Is it still profitable for them? Idk, they eliminated half the servers. Maybe they're way bellow the amount of subcribers they need to hit a profit. Maybe the cost of staff employed to maintain and design/redesign FFXI is greater than the combined sum of all their subscriber's fees.

If servers aren't running at capacity, and you can consolidate them, then consolidate them. I think that's just about saving money.

Is this still making money? Well, they're still supporting it. I guess yes?



Slowly killing FFXI is what I would do if I was running at a loss, and wanted to mitigate the permanent damage to my reputation among my loyal fan base.

If the game is running at a loss, you do one of two things: try and save it, make it free-to-play, or shut it down. Article on MMOs that failed here (http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/zergwatch/122008/2962_The-Top-10-MMORPG-failures-of-all-time). If this doesn't officially kill the thread, I don't know what will.



I've always thought that Abyssea was SE's way of accelerating the demise of the game's challenge factor. (to encourage/support/initiate subscribers retirement/quit)


I think the idea was that they're trying to warp you through middle-game/exp grind content as quickly as possible so that they can get you to end-game content where they can sell you expansions and mini-expansions.



I think the new payment method is their way of slamming the breaks and shouting "END OF FFXI, WE'RE HERE! ALL OUT"

There's a few possible reasons.

* PlayOnline didn't play out the way they intended (and that's a fact), and was probably too expensive to run as-is. They wanted the payment procedures to be leaner for their own benefit.

* Chrysta makes sense because they make a slight profit on over-payments.

* Paying in advance that's non-refundable is guaranteed profit. There are people who would shell out a year's worth in advance for this.



(the closer we get to September, the more "/rage quit" we're going to see.
Yup. People are already posting these in pre-existing threads. It's just a matter of more individual threads coming up. What makes this thread unique is about what SE got right and got wrong, and how billing fits into the equation.



I for one, am not bothered anymore. If I am unable to log in September 1st or 2nd, I will just leave it as it is until I find a reason to log on. Lvl cap rise isn't sufficient tbh.
I'm still playing and still hoping this works out better, but I have not and will not sign up for Click'n Buy as things stand. But I am bothered about it though. Been playing for awhile, as so many have, and this is just a terrible way for it all to end. Quitting because of real-life demands is one thing. This on the other hand is just lame. :mad:

[Heimdall]

So many "SE fails" comments in this thread.

Does anyone else wonder if maybe SE's actions are having the exact desired effect on FFXI?
Is it still profitable for them? Idk, they eliminated half the servers. Maybe they're way bellow the amount of subcribers they need to hit a profit. Maybe the cost of staff employed to maintain and design/redesign FFXI is greater than the combined sum of all their subscriber's fees.

Slowly killing FFXI is what I would do if I was running at a loss, and wanted to mitigate the permanent damage to my reputation among my loyal fan base.

I've always thought that Abyssea was SE's way of accelerating the demise of the game's challenge factor. (to encourage/support/initiate subscribers retirement/quit)
I think the new payment method is their way of slamming the breaks and shouting "END OF FFXI, WE'RE HERE! ALL OUT"
(the closer we get to September, the more "/rage quit" we're going to see.

I for one, am not bothered anymore. If I am unable to log in September 1st or 2nd, I will just leave it as it is until I find a reason to log on. Lvl cap rise isn't sufficient tbh.

From my understanding ffxi is one their only current profit makers going on and maybe some hand held stuff/phone apps. It is sounding like they looking to get away from main game system game development and move to other mediums like phone apps and some others things. Far as abyssea really think it was their attempt to copy WOWs success by eliminating xp grind system. As most people know in wow soon u turn on game u practiclly maxed level. In the end it seems like they become gun shy with so many company screwups missmanagments and lacking a proper focus for what direction to go in to recover. they need focus on quality and customer satifaction as in the past instead of trying squeeze every cent out of everything to rebuild the brand quality and customer loyality. square at one time was the company i think everyone else looked up to and respected while every release they made was a major event that was eagerly anticipated.

[Kuwabaraone]

Before I begin this is no way an attack, but rather an brief letter to SE.

Till Directwithdrawl is reinstated, I'll Say "Thank You SE for the Years, and Farewell." This is My Last Month.

Glacont
2004 - August 2011

[This last piece I wish to address My Fellow Gamers. Even though this is a Letter from Myself to SE, and is not an debate over a choosen topic, I welcome all constructive views, however, any negative, sarcastic comments... and yes, even those I know so much eyes '>.>' I will not respond to. Take Care, Everyone].

Ah, so you are willing to continue the adventure if they are more willing to fall back on traditional methods of payment then? ^.^) But I do share your concern with 'ClickandBuy' as I did sign up. But what concerns me more is the fact that I have yet to be charged for THIS month (August, 2011) and I'm still playing. It IS a shame for a seasoned veteran to say their farewells, but we ALL will leave this playground of Vana'diel one day (some sooner than others). You felt ready, and made your choice. If it's still around, you should come back (even if as a 'new player' ) and see what has become of this world.

KB1

PS. May Altana (God) continue to watch over you and your loved ones. /salute

[Airget]

it is a pity a majority of the people I play with most likely won't be continuing because of the payment plan not because of the game, though to an extent this is more like the final straw.

While the future of the game does look promising upon finishing WoTG you kinda just lose the motivation to continue on since it all just feels like you're playing to get more gear and the severe lack of any story substance is quite sad. As I beat WoTG and went through the final CS I thought to myself, we'll never get anything like this again, based on what they've been doing we'll never see an actual story like this ever again cause they are so adamant about keeping ps2 support even if it means destroying the potential the game has.

It's kind of sad while they keep ps2 support they have no problem removing a payment plan that has always been an option to us and imo doesn't really require much effort to keep together. While you claim it's cause of our safety then you should explain why it appears the japanese don't have to go with this mandatory change and it's only us.

I just hope your company is smart enough to realize that when you see a severe drop in customers it's not cause of the game but because of the mandatory change in payment plans. If you wish to keep your customers loyal you should give us the benefit of keeping with a payment plan we have been using for years, to forcefully have us change it and care little about our opinions and attempt to calm us by saying it's safe is only alienating loyal players.

SE you have players that have been playing for years even those that have been playing since NA release leaving because of this, not because of the game but because of the change to the payment plan. You are failing to listen to the countless outcries and would rather lose a large amount of customers to save a little cash? Next month you're gonna see how much money you're going to be losing over this, you've already lost a few customers this month because they may have changed or they are unable to change even though they have linked their account and you know what they are right not to waste there time trying to pay for a game they want to play and spend hours trying to get it to work.

A person shoudlnt' have to work hard to pay to enjoy an mmo the fact you are making it this difficult for people to play clearly shows you might not even care for this game anymore and are trying to find an excuse to end this games life. Prove me wrong though, if you can manage to muster enough care to find more approved methods or paying or directly paying you then please lay it upon us. But if you're willing to lose a constant flow of cash because you're unwilling to listen to customer outcry then so be it, you deserve to have both mmos fail because of your lack of better judgment when it comes to how customers feel towards who they give their information to.

[Panthera]

While you claim it's cause of our safety then you should explain why it appears the japanese don't have to go with this mandatory change and it's only us.

Wow.

Obviously, the "for security reasons" and "it's for our best interest" were bologna, this just makes it painfully real that we're not being told any kind of truth. JP Credit Cards are safe, but EU/NA are in danger, why?

[Reznov831]

Dude you're a noob, the new system works fine and it does have a direct withdrawal option from your bank account with no shady extra fees, as long as u aren't messing around with additional services like mules constantly. It's the same exact price it was before and what's nice is that they don't take the money till around the 3rd or 5th day of the month. So u have a lil more time to have money in ur account. just join the new system and quit your belly aching, seriously everyone complains but if they'd actually attempt the transfer they would realize that "hey it's not any more expensive and I can still do direct payment, why was i complaining before."

[Niyariko]

I suggest for better security, stop accepting JP credit cards, and ask all the japanese to use Click and Buy /overpaid-crysta.
Go on, I dare you.

I bet everyone there will quit FFXIV and FFXI right away, don't let a stupid payment plan destroy your game, is a dumb way to go out of business.

[Neonii]

It's not a fact to me, because that's never happened to me in many, many contacts with support.

They don't delete threads of people being angry, they delete threads of people being inappropriate in expressing that anger. You haven't done that (though some people have).

Yes, I have the threads of many people posting on forums I've moderated asking how to get help because they think they've been double billed, I ask them if they reactivated recently and virtually every time the answer is 'yes' then I say "Check your history in playonline. You'll see that you were charged for the month you reactivated in, and the next month. They do not charge you right away for the reactivated month, because they only do charges at the end of each month (Though, with the new system, this is obsolete)."

Then they're like "Oh. Thanks for clearing that up, you're right."

Sweet can you help me figure out how to pay then? I have followed all the instructions ect but can't pay. I tried contacting customer service and got a run around. Can you do two things for me? point me to step by step detailed instructions that work on what to do after the transfer? Can you point me to troubleshooting info if I'm having problems? Thank You

[Aver]

Sweet can you help me figure out how to pay then? I have followed all the instructions ect but can't pay. I tried contacting customer service and got a run around. Can you do two things for me? point me to step by step detailed instructions that work on what to do after the transfer? Can you point me to troubleshooting info if I'm having problems? Thank You

I'm assuming by the obvious sarcasm (that will whoosh by other's heads, trust me) that you're in one of those countries SE deems unworthy to pay them?

[Korpg]

Dude you're a noob, the new system works fine and it does have a direct withdrawal option from your bank account with no shady extra fees, as long as u aren't messing around with additional services like mules constantly. It's the same exact price it was before and what's nice is that they don't take the money till around the 3rd or 5th day of the month. So u have a lil more time to have money in ur account. just join the new system and quit your belly aching, seriously everyone complains but if they'd actually attempt the transfer they would realize that "hey it's not any more expensive and I can still do direct payment, why was i complaining before."

I agree with you, but people like to complain about something, be it a new, one-time hassle for most, or having to buy crysta that they are afraid of overpaying, and all extra crysta "can't be used in the next month," or just complaining for complaining sake (what most people in that 100 page complaint thread is doing anyway).

We all know that nobody is going to quit over this, they say they will, but they won't. Getting an international prepaid credit card for free is hard yo!

[Neonii]

I'm assuming by the obvious sarcasm (that will whoosh by other's heads, trust me) that you're in one of those countries SE deems unworthy to pay them?

Its not sarcasm its frustration I transferred the accounts cant log on it says content ID's are cancelled. When I follow the instructions and try to pay one of two things happen. Either it won't go through or the maint screen comes up every time. I log on a different site and come back, the server is back up. Tried customer service got a run around. I literally cant pay. I have not played since last month. They need to post detailed step by step instructions that work. They also need to post troubleshooting in case customers are having problems. I don't understand why this process is not more customer friendly. Also, being unable to get help with my issue is frustrating as all get out.

[Octaviane]

I agree with you, but people like to complain about something, be it a new, one-time hassle for most, or having to buy crysta that they are afraid of overpaying, and all extra crysta "can't be used in the next month," or just complaining for complaining sake (what most people in that 100 page complaint thread is doing anyway).

We all know that nobody is going to quit over this, they say they will, but they won't. Getting an international prepaid credit card for free is hard yo!

"We" meaning you. Let's see, you are already whining because you don't know when the update will be or what it will include because the timing is going to infringe on you going back to work (more likely school). That makes you a hypocrite. When you have something useful to contribute to a conversation that is not filled with tripe, feel free to come back. In the mean time G**Out of here.

[Korpg]

"We" meaning you. Let's see, you are already whining because you don't know when the update will be or what it will include because the timing is going to infringe on you going back to work (more likely school). That makes you a hypocrite. When you have something useful to contribute to a conversation that is not filled with tripe, feel free to come back. In the mean time G**Out of here.

A) A query is not the same as "whining." Unless you want to assume that, then everyone asking to change the payment method is whining also.
B) I'm asking for more information, Dev1021 did not give out any more information. Aren't you asking for the same thing? Oh wait, no you aren't because you are given all the information you need to transfer your accounts over. You are complaining because you don't want to change and are throwing a hissy fit over it.
C) My posts have more to contribute than what you have been posting anyway. I'm pointing out about people's constant need to complain about something (if it isn't this, it would be that, and if it isn't that, it would be this).

Personally, I don't think that you like me knowing more about you, me and most everyone else than what your idea of who you are.

See you next month though.

[Reznov831]

"We" meaning you. Let's see, you are already whining because you don't know when the update will be or what it will include because the timing is going to infringe on you going back to work (more likely school). That makes you a hypocrite. When you have something useful to contribute to a conversation that is not filled with tripe, feel free to come back. In the mean time G**Out of here.



WoW!!! Formus always end in fights lol

[Reznov831]

I agree with you, but people like to complain about something, be it a new, one-time hassle for most, or having to buy crysta that they are afraid of overpaying, and all extra crysta "can't be used in the next month," or just complaining for complaining sake (what most people in that 100 page complaint thread is doing anyway).

We all know that nobody is going to quit over this, they say they will, but they won't. Getting an international prepaid credit card for free is hard yo!

I agree, this game is pretty addicting and people will change to the new system rather than quit (with the exception of the few that just feel this really is the final straw and are bored with the game anyways). So like you said we always need something to complain about, ha!!!

We're complaining about the complainers lol, it's priceless.

[Kitkat]

I have multiple accounts on the game (why hide it, I'd say a rough 20% does these days) and transferring around was a bit of a hassle. Granted the hidden fees aren't really an issue with click and buy so much as their overall reputation. Then again I can count a few times where paypal was attacked or other methods that SE could look into would have negative impact to them or their customer.

This isn't really a killer for me so much as some of the changes to the game are or the fact close friends of mine are leaving over the payment switch over. I don't know about some people, but the vast majority of the reason I play any MMO is for the people I meet or have met in the game as time passes on. The content has had some interesting perks, but if suddenly one day some of my closest friends in XI stated they were leaving that would be the end for me. I've already taken a week or two break from XI over listening to those I know stating they possibly won't go more than a month into the new payment system. Plain and simple, it is depressing (oh look, food for the trolls). In the end I'm not leaving over the system myself, just mainly over the effect the system is having with some of my closer friends who would rather not deal with the new changes, don't trust some of the other options, or detest the fact SE crysta requires overpaying to keep the account going. ~shrugs~ Se's game though, let them do whatever they want. I don't see any reason to get a chip on my shoulder when the community is what has kept me so long, not the game.

[Octaviane]

A) A query is not the same as "whining." Unless you want to assume that, then everyone asking to change the payment method is whining also.
B) I'm asking for more information, Dev1021 did not give out any more information. Aren't you asking for the same thing? Oh wait, no you aren't because you are given all the information you need to transfer your accounts over. You are complaining because you don't want to change and are throwing a hissy fit over it.
C) My posts have more to contribute than what you have been posting anyway. I'm pointing out about people's constant need to complain about something (if it isn't this, it would be that, and if it isn't that, it would be this).

Personally, I don't think that you like me knowing more about you, me and most everyone else than what your idea of who you are.

See you next month though.

Why can't you be a patient little boy and wait to see what the changes will be? And yes, you specifically stated you would be "inconvenienced" when they were made.

No you won't see me next month because I put my money where my mouth is troll.

[Octaviane]

I would like to say that the OP here did a great job of posting his goodbye. Nicely done and I wish you all the best. :)

[RAIST]

Dude you're a noob, the new system works fine and it does have a direct withdrawal option from your bank account with no shady extra fees, as long as u aren't messing around with additional services like mules constantly. It's the same exact price it was before and what's nice is that they don't take the money till around the 3rd or 5th day of the month. So u have a lil more time to have money in ur account. just join the new system and quit your belly aching, seriously everyone complains but if they'd actually attempt the transfer they would realize that "hey it's not any more expensive and I can still do direct payment, why was i complaining before."

Join Date:Jul 2011
Posts:5

Guess you haven't seen just what has been going on with the change.

SE has arbitrarily decided to only save CC information and process payments in-house for the JP region players--and claimed it was for increasing security. This is totally bogus--the servers are no less secure for NA users then they are for the JP users--that is a technology issue, not a regional one.

Everyone else is being shuffled off to a third party system of payment. In some cases--this has opened others up to higher security risk (C&B has asked some to EMAIL copies of confidential documents commonly used for identity theft just to verify accounts so they can pay, and some are directly paying per purchase--meaning they enter their CC info everytime they buy crysta, and some may be on a system that is not fully secured as it is open to malware infections, keyloggers, etc.). In some cases, some have not been able to use C&B because they don't offer the service in their region. For some, their banks reject C&B transactions. In some areas--that is a common policy, and to get around it you have to hunt for a CC issuer that will work and apply for another credit card. In short, it is just too much a hassle in some areas to set up. And Crysta? SE is not offereing it to some regions because of potential legal issues (Virtual Property rights and such). This ultimately has resulted in some players not having ANY option to pay SE now. For some, C&B is not offered, and Crysta is not offered--but they've been using their CC to pay through SE for years with no problem.

Also, there is the issue of added cost. Some are having to pay a worse penalty due to a change in the currency being used. C&B is billing in a different currency, so some are getting hit by a worse exchange rate (up to 43% more in some cases), or they are being charged fees by their financial institutions. Yes, that is not a fee from C&B--but it is incurred BECAUSE they are being FORCED to use C&B if they want to set up automatic payments with their CC. That is a principle issue--because you are forcing specifically non-JP players to do this, you are causing many to pay more for the service.

Then there is the whole crysta debate: $12.95USD every 30 days, can only buy crysta in multiples of $5USD--that takes 100 billing cycles for $1295USD billable fees to match evenly with the crysta you pre-purchase to cover the account. So, a single character account is essentially paying more than contractually obligated to pay--for over 8 years. Again...it may seem trivial to quibble over a few dollars here and there--it is the PRINCIPLE of the matter. ONLY NON-JP PLAYERS ARE BEING FORCED TO PAY MORE TO PLAY. If you are in JP, you can use your CC as always, or you can use the alternatives like webmoney and other Crysta acquisition methods (which have been shown to get around the over-buying issue).

Again--it all boils down to the simple fact they have singled out the same payment method to just the JP region in ADDITION to extending their options (Crysta), and forced others into potentially more unstable/costly methods of payment--requiring more effort for many to simply pay them, and injecting more points of failure into the system. If a billing error comes up, who do the turn to now? SE? C&B/PayPal/PlaySpan? The CC processor for that third party? The bank? Before, it was just SE, their CC processor, or your bank. This is a potential Customer Service nightmare in the making. We've already seen the decline in QOS because of the communication barriers put up now. And the sh!t hasn't even hit the fan yet--when everyone who is currently not up to speed with what all this entails suddenly gets bumped after the full changeover, it may get prettty ugly.

All of this drama can be dealt with very simply. Replicate the JP CC payment scripts from thier web pages to the NA/EU region pages, altering the script to use the CC processors SE already has agreements with for processing the EU/NA cards.

That's another fact some seem to forget. SE has NOT dropped their NA/EU CC processors. They are still using them for their online merchandise store. That's right.....they still have contracts with them, which means they stiill have to pay them their monthly fees. So all they are doing is not paying them their fee per transaction (on average for the market, @60 cents per$12.95, btw) and instead are paying a different fee to another group like C&B or PlaySpan.

Again... all they need to do to make this go away is (in addition to running the new options) implement the same payment option they've used for years--ESSENTIALLY DO LIKE THEY'VE DONE FOR ONLY THE JP REGION.

[Korpg]

Why can't you be a patient little boy and wait to see what the changes will be? And yes, you specifically stated you would be "inconvenienced" when they were made.

No you won't see me next month because I put my money where my mouth is troll.

I asked for more information, nothing wrong with that.

But if you were really going to quit over this, you would have quit before you got billed in August....instead, you stay here complaining that you are going to "quit" when you had the perfect chance to "put your money where your mouth is."

The most "vocal" quitters have already, you know, quit. You didn't quit, because you are still on this forum.

So, see you next month. I know, you know, we all know you and a bunch of other complainers are not going to quit. You would have done so already.

[RAIST]

No... many are not quitting yet because they are still on the billing system that is still working for them. Quitting while an acceptable method of payment is still in effect does nothing to emphasize the point at the heart of the matter.

They are going to let it expire when that acceptable system gets completely cut off--that way SE has a definite point in time to reference. If/when they decide to look back on just WTF happened to FFXI subs, they will have a clearly defined event--a sudden spike in cancellations that coincides with when it became mandatory to switch over.

[Korpg]

Many people do not have a problem with a minor inconvenience. Many have already switched over. Only people who truly have a problem are those who are in a country that Click and Buy doesn't support and don't have an international credit card.

But it is not SE's fault that those people don't do any little research or an online query.

Your problem, RAIST, seems to be from overcomplaining. How many different things do you dislike about this new system?

[Panthera]

I think this has more to do with ensuring that SE doesn't run into the legal nightmare Sony now has after their system was hacked and information was stolen. To me they are ensuring that no customer financial information is stored on their system by using only 3rd parties. Doesn't make *us* safer, just makes SE safer from a legal standpoint.

Interesting point, but if they were all that concerned with their own liability, why keep CC info of their JP customers?

[Korpg]

Interesting point, but if they were all that concerned with their own liability, why keep CC info of their JP customers?

Because they can pay in exact currency (yen) instead of having to pay in a foreign currency (anything else).

[oliveira]

Interesting point, but if they were all that concerned with their own liability, why keep CC info of their JP customers?

To not risk losing them.

[RAIST]

Many people do not have a problem with a minor inconvenience. Many have already switched over. Only people who truly have a problem are those who are in a country that Click and Buy doesn't support and don't have an international credit card.

But it is not SE's fault that those people don't do any little research or an online query.

Your problem, RAIST, seems to be from overcomplaining. How many different things do you dislike about this new system?

My main complaint has always been over the JP-only CC option discrimination--if you've actually been reading my posts, you should know that. That wall of text was a recap of the issues that have been presented in the threads--figured it was better to recap all of them in one post for that seemingly uninformed poster, rather than trying to redirect him/her to a mass of threads.

No matter how anyone tries to spin this situation, it always comes back to some very simple facts:

Thay have taken away an option that for many was simple and reliable, it could be have been fairly easy to implement, and extended it for just one region, and have mistakenly tried to say the choice was done to improve security. They have the technology, they have the knowhow--essentially, they have the means to do it, but are simply choosing not to do it.

[RAIST]

Because they can pay in exact currency (yen) instead of having to pay in a foreign currency (anything else).

That has nothing to do with security---that is a matter of cost management.

A server is open to the same threat of attack regardless of where it is physically located. The level of security is the same regardless of whose information is saved on it--it can be attacked just as easily from someone inside JP as any other region. Someone living in Japan has their information open to the same threats as someone living in Europe. The ONLY way it could be bound to a security issue is because it would cost more to implement stronger security to meet banking regulations enforced in another region. That makes it a COST issue, NOT a SECURITY issue--as in, they didn't want to pay for updated VPN cards for their firewalls or something.

[Korpg]

My main complaint has always been over the JP-only CC option discrimination--if you've actually been reading my posts, you should know that. That wall of text was a recap of the issues that have been presented in the threads--figured it was better to recap all of them in one post for that seemingly uninformed poster, rather than trying to redirect him/her to a mass of threads.

No matter how anyone tries to spin this situation, it always comes back to some very simple facts:

Thay have taken away an option that for many was simple and reliable, it could be have been fairly easy to implement, and extended it for just one region, and have mistakenly tried to say the choice was done to improve security. They have the technology, they have the knowhow--essentially, they have the means to do it, but are simply choosing not to do it.

Well, I have read your posts, you had several complaints. JP-only payment, having to have extra crysta each month, having to pay to a third party instead of direct payment, having to use Click and Buy instead of Paypal (Paypal has 6 times more "fraud" than Click and Buy, just in case you didn't know, even though neither company actually commits the fraud, but you wouldn't want to see that, would you?), all of that just to name a few.

Yes, they have taken away a simple method and converted it into a simple method. For security reasons too. I guess you have forgotten all of those billing issues they have been having for the past year or so, I guess we have finally found out why people were having those billing issues. Also, remember PSN? I guess you forgotten that also. But whatever. Just keep raising your pitchforks at SE, nothing is going to change now.

[Korpg]

That has nothing to do with security---that is a matter of cost management.

A server is open to the same threat of attack regardless of where it is physically located. The level of security is the same regardless of whose information is saved on it--it can be attacked just as easily from someone inside JP as any other region. Someone living in Japan has their information open to the same threats as someone living in Europe. The ONLY way it could be bound to a security issue is because it would cost more to implement stronger security to meet banking regulations enforced in another region. That makes it a COST issue, NOT a SECURITY issue--as in, they didn't want to pay for updated VPN cards for their firewalls or something.

So, SE can't try to save a little money to keep this game going now? They have to continue using the same expensive method to satisfy a select complainers now, is that what you are saying?

But not only have they found a solution that saves them a little money, but increased security at the same time. Is that really all that bad, bad enough to complain for weeks on end because you aren't getting your way?

[RAIST]

Well, I have read your posts, you had several complaints. JP-only payment, having to have extra crysta each month, having to pay to a third party instead of direct payment, having to use Click and Buy instead of Paypal (Paypal has 6 times more "fraud" than Click and Buy, just in case you didn't know, even though neither company actually commits the fraud, but you wouldn't want to see that, would you?), all of that just to name a few.

Yes, they have taken away a simple method and converted it into a simple method. For security reasons too. I guess you have forgotten all of those billing issues they have been having for the past year or so, I guess we have finally found out why people were having those billing issues. Also, remember PSN? I guess you forgotten that also. But whatever. Just keep raising your pitchforks at SE, nothing is going to change now.

I debate issues as they appear in the thread... but if you had been paying attention, I continually come back to the issue of them taking away the directpay CC option. Guess you are just glossing over posts and selectively reading or something.. who knows.

If something appears to be deceptive, people will question it. You may see some of the words used to describe them as a bit strong, but it is a common mistake many make. Many use words like "fraud" without knowing truly what it implies. So... let's look at the Webster's definition of "Fraud":

a : deceit, trickery; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : trick

"things that make you go..... hmmmmm...."



So, SE can't try to save a little money to keep this game going now? They have to continue using the same expensive method to satisfy a select complainers now, is that what you are saying?

But not only have they found a solution that saves them a little money, but increased security at the same time. Is that really all that bad, bad enough to complain for weeks on end because you aren't getting your way?

You've completely missed an important fact (that I brought up a few posts ago): They still are paying to maintain the same agreements with the EU/NA based CC processors to use them at their online merchandise site. For example, all they are doing is shuffling the cost per transaction from a NA group to a UK group. That fee is considerably less then $1 per transaction: common fees run .21-.35 a pop, plus 2%-3%--depending on the discount rates. Trust me, with the level of activity they were running, they were getting a discounted rate to run subscriptions through (which they will now loose with those contracts by not running subs through them.)

This decision hasn't increased their security at all. All it may have done is shuffled their LIABILITY off to a third party. They still have the same security issues for their JP players. Again...security in this scope is a technology issue--unless they went out and upgraded hardware/software to raise their security, nothing has changed. If they raised that security level for the JP players--it would have also applied to the NA/EU players. 3-DES, SHA-1,. SHA-2, Keyed hashes---all those encryption standards are universal...they don't care where the data originates, the function is the same regardless of the start or end-point and what they encapsulate--they function the same regardless.

Again...PSN was lacking in security and they found out just how liable they were oafter they got hacked. Moving the data from one server to another does nothing to improve your security. You can still get hacked just as easily as before--you just are liable to fewer people if that server gets hacked and that data is moved elsewhere, but ethen...they can just hack the other server and you are again just as liable as before. All they are doing by moving it to C&B or PayPal is reducing their LIABILITY in the event they get hacked, not their SECURITY. It does nothing to prevent them from getting attacked in the first place.

Billing issues can also abound just as easily with C&B as they can with SE. No system is perfect by any means. We always put a payment in pending status until we get confirmation either through the clearing house or by manually entering the authent. codee and clearing the pending flag through. It might even be a bigger issue as data must flow to off-site handlers more than ever now. SE can flag you for needing to be billed, but for various reasons it may not get confirmation from other parties that the bill has been paid. Depending on how they are programatically handling the exceptions, you can still just as easily get double-billed in error from any company, and have to call them on it to get it corrected. You can also have customers who have a perfect record with a billing partner. Myself, I never had any problems with the Visa I've used since 2005, and it has been bought out and re-issued 4 or 5 times since then. I'd update the info, and never had any problems with it.

Again, it's not a question of people getting their way--it's about the inequallity. SE has forever proclaimed to be all concerned about balancing things across all regions and platforms, and then they pull a boneheaded stunt like this that dramatically tips the scale and counters those previous assertions. Which again brings me to the closing point of a previous post:


Thay have taken away an option that for many was simple and reliable, it could be have been fairly easy to implement, and extended it for just one region, and have mistakenly tried to say the choice was done to improve security. They have the technology, they have the knowhow--essentially, they have the means to do it, but are simply choosing not to do it.

[Korpg]

You know what RAIST, you are going to continue with your tinfoil hat conspiracies forever, aren't you?

I mean, do you really think that this whole new system is just a fraud waiting to happen, that SE and Click and Buy both came up with just to take your money away from you?

[RAIST]

You know what RAIST, you are going to continue with your tinfoil hat conspiracies forever, aren't you?

I mean, do you really think that this whole new system is just a fraud waiting to happen, that SE and Click and Buy both came up with just to take your money away from you?

huh... just where did you come up with that? YOU are the one spouting conspiracy. I'm talking facts here.

Edit:
And I never said it was a "whole new system is just a fraud waiting to happen". Go back and read it again. I said no billing system is perfect....depending how they are programatically handling exceptions, any one can be open to double billing. If you aren't set up to handle delayed/stalled/dropped communications to an off-site service, or aren't handled to prevent the impatient double-submit customer, and various other potential exceptions--you can have billing errors.

[Revanchist]

Korpg, while I admit you do have some valid points, you are completely overlooking the fact that A: Crysta isn't legally available/accepted as viable payment options in some countries and B: the gamer cards (for use via PlaySpan) aren't available in every country either.

So for gamers in those countries, come end of August, will be cut off from FFXI. Is it too much to ask for SE to extend the same courtesy they've given to their JP playerbase to the rest of the world? I'm not saying have Direct payment as the main method of payment, but like the JP's, have it alongside the Crysta/gamer card payment options.

Also, your condescending comments towards others here is getting old real quick. Saying that you'll 'see them in September' etc, is not just condescending, but oblivious to the position some gamers are in due to this situation SE is forcing upon us as a whole.

Now while some posters may be letting their emotions get the better of them in their posts, and I admit I was at first, what does it matter to you? You already have your payment sorted out, so why bother to troll the forum, being rude and condescending to others? Serves no purpose, except just to fan the flames against some who may have legitimate problems with this payment option.

I hate to say that it seems (to me at least) that you seem to enjoy baiting and attacking others for voicing their opinions/views of this situation. Granted yes, you do have every right to do so... but as it's not directly affecting you, why are you wasting your time doing so?

Is it so hard to understand that while some have no problems with this enforced payment option, there are a number who DO have problems with it? Aren't they allowed to voice some criticism against this?

[Whiskey]

I'll never understand why SE does things like this that break the mold after 10 years of consistency (and in such negative ways). It's like they enjoy upsetting players, making things difficult, and most of all causing players to quit.

[Korpg]

Korpg, while I admit you do have some valid points, you are completely overlooking the fact that A: Crysta isn't legally available/accepted as viable payment options in some countries and B: the gamer cards (for use via PlaySpan) aren't available in every country either.

So for gamers in those countries, come end of August, will be cut off from FFXI. Is it too much to ask for SE to extend the same courtesy they've given to their JP playerbase to the rest of the world? I'm not saying have Direct payment as the main method of payment, but like the JP's, have it alongside the Crysta/gamer card payment options.

Also, your condescending comments towards others here is getting old real quick. Saying that you'll 'see them in September' etc, is not just condescending, but oblivious to the position some gamers are in due to this situation SE is forcing upon us as a whole.

Now while some posters may be letting their emotions get the better of them in their posts, and I admit I was at first, what does it matter to you? You already have your payment sorted out, so why bother to troll the forum, being rude and condescending to others? Serves no purpose, except just to fan the flames against some who may have legitimate problems with this payment option.

I hate to say that it seems (to me at least) that you seem to enjoy baiting and attacking others for voicing their opinions/views of this situation. Granted yes, you do have every right to do so... but as it's not directly affecting you, why are you wasting your time doing so?

Is it so hard to understand that while some have no problems with this enforced payment option, there are a number who DO have problems with it? Aren't they allowed to voice some criticism against this?

Again, international debt card. It doesn't matter which country you are in, having one of those ensures continuing to play this game.

How do I know this, you ask? Because, it all depends on the bank location, not where you actually live. If the bank of an international bank card is in the UK, or US, or JP, then you don't have to worry about being the .001% of the people who live in both crysta-banned and CNP-banned countries. Yes, it is another hurdle you have to jump thru, but if you are serious about playing this game, it is a small hurdle you have to jump thru once.

You need a website for the international bank card? Here is a website I recommend, although you might have to contact them personally depending on location (http://globalebanking.com/IntCards.asp). Either way, problem solved.

[Alhanelem]

I have followed all the instructions ect but can't pay. I tried contacting customer service and got a run around.What do you mean "got a run around?" They don't "runaround" people. tell me what you said and what response you got, then I can judge for myself.

We can't help you if you don't specifically say why you can't pay and what you've tried to do, your communications with support including exactly what you said and what they said.

What payment are you attempting to use? What's the error you get? We need information.
It's avialable in japan because they're a japanese company and it ocsts them less and everoyne uses 3D secure. it costs them more to accept international payments directly. It's not a simple matter of courtesy.

[RAIST]

prepaid debit cards are still kinda the same method as pre-charging a crysta account--ie, it's not fully automated, also, there is still this:

Global - Offered by non-U.S. banks, the International Debit Cards can be issued to residents of most countries in the world.
*note, that is THEIR underlining, not mine.

You also need to look closely at the terms of use for them too. Most all US based prepaid cards have a monthly fee--many are really cheap $3 or less, but it is still a fee you incur for using them. Interesting that that site doesn't provide a link to any of those details that you can simply pull up. Closest I could get was from a DEC 2010 PDF where they mention:
http://globalebanking.com/Intl_Payment_Architecture.pdf

• Reasonable usage & maintenance fees

It too may be next to nothing for a monthly fee, or it may only have fees incurred when using an ATM or something--hard to say without the details readily available on that site, so it's hard to properly evaluate them. You have to contact them directly to get the details:

Since we have several different International Prepaid Debit Card programs, please contact us to discuss your requirements (geographical regions, customer types, applications, etc.) We can then provide you more exact details of a card program that would be of the best fit to you.

In other words...results may vary based on where you live--which is essentially the problem we are now facing with SE's new payment scheme.

[Alhanelem]

Most all US based prepaid cards have a monthly feeAll the ones I've seen only have a fee when you buy them, and a fee when they have a balance and have been inactive for a period of time. None of the ones I've seen have a monthly fee.

[RAIST]

eh.. it varies from company to company, and region to region...that's why you really need to look into their TOS when you are shopping around. Fortunately, you avoid a lot of fees if you do stuff with them online, but when you do things through a store or ATM, it gets kinda intimidating with the US based cards:

http://www.creditcards.com/prepaid.php

Fee schedule from one of the Wal-Mart cards through Green Dot:

Standard Fees
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reload Personalized Card at Walmart (No Check Cashing) $3.00
Family Walmart MoneyCard $3.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reload Card at Green Dot Location (other than Walmart store) Varies by Retailer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Additional Personalized Card Fee
- Standard Walmart MoneyCard $3.00
- Student Edition Walmart MoneyCard $0.00
- Family Walmart MoneyCard $0.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- ATM Cash Transaction - Domestic $2.00
- ATM Cash Transaction - International $2.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ATM Balance Inquiry $1.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Monthly Maintenance Fee $3.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Teller Cash Transaction $2.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lost/Stolen Replacement Personalized Card $3.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rush Delivery of Personalized Card $20.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Foreign Transactions (see section 18) 2%


If you load or reload at least $1,000 to your Walmart MoneyCard during a calendar month (not including a transfer from your Temporary Card to your Personalized Card), we will waive the Monthly Maintenance Fee for your Walmart MoneyCard the next calendar month.

[Delsus]

@OP link me to 3 websites by government watchdogs saying they have investigated and taken action against clickandbuy, if they were out to cause problems they will have been prosicuted time and time again. All I have found are people on forums that they have been scammed, there is no evidence that these people have just not read the terms of using clickandbuy, or replying to emails from an email address similar to clickandbuy, these are the biggest forms of complaints against companies, and they can look like a company has taken money without your permission.

As I say link me to 3 websites about an official inquiry, news or a government page doesnt matter.

http://www.jimkarpen.com/paypalfraud1.html

Oh look I found somone that had money taken from his paypal omg paypal are fraudsters too.

No matter what you look at you always have people who have thier accounts hacked and get thier accounts wiped, it doesnt matter if its paypal, clickandbuy or any company that holds financial details I could set an email account up which could be accounts@paypal.co.ca and get a program to scan ebay.ca for any sellers that use paypal and have an email on thier profile, and send an email saying they need to log into a website that resembles paypal, I would then have thier login info and could wipe thier accounts clean. People would think they have done nothing wrong and blame paypal for taking thier money, this can be done with any company.

tl;dr its easy to get login info off somone, unless I am linked to 3 websites that say clickandbuy have been prosicuted for taking money without consent you have no proof that they do it. If it was as bad as forums make out this information will be available.

[Korpg]

@RAIST, you don't have to get the card from the same country you reside. That is the whole point of getting an international card outside your country. But then again, only .001% of players would need to take this route, and I highly doubt you are one of them.

[Hashmalum]

I, too, am leaving as soon as Square-Enix refuses to continue billing my debit card. I simply refuse to go through a shady, paranoid middleman with bad customer service that will result in me being charged international banking fees. I also refuse to make Square-Enix an interest-free loan in the form of purchases of company scrip, part of which I will lose next time I stop playing.

It's unfortunate, as the dev team was starting to improve and become more player-friendly. But the business side of Square-Enix has only gotten worse with time. Verified by Visa was bad enough--besides being inconvenient and unavailable to many customers, it was a stealth assault on consumer rights*. I only played as long as I could evade VbV requirements. But this billing system change-over is just too much. I'm being asked to pay more money and go to more trouble to play a game at the same time that it is excruciatingly obvious that SE is investing less in the game to begin with--endlessly recycled zones, snail's pace of WotG roll-out, etc.--and all under a blatantly false premise of "improving security". I'm not going to take it. Give me a billing option that doesn't require purchases of funny money, isn't handled through an international vendor or one of ill repute, and doesn't require me to change bank or use VbV and I'll stick around (or come back). Otherwise, I'm gone.

*If you use a normal card and the information is stolen, you can always dispute the charges and get your money back. If you use VbV, it is assumed (incorrectly!) that the information cannot be stolen and you are responsible for any and all charges no matter what. If you use VbV and one of the merchants you use is hacked, or you are hacked, then you can potentially have thousands of dollars stolen from you with no way of even knowing what happened or of obtaining legal recourse. This is simply unacceptable.

[RAIST]

@RAIST, you don't have to get the card from the same country you reside. That is the whole point of getting an international card outside your country. But then again, only .001% of players would need to take this route, and I highly doubt you are one of them.

Didn't say you had to get it from the country you reside in. Did you even read the previous posts--especially the one about the company you linked? I thought I made it very clear that you can't readily get at the details of the cards at that site you linked--they are intentionally vague about it because (by their very own admission) it varies according to where you live.

I gave the US reference to show the variety of just what happens within ONE specific region. In case you didn't even bother to pull up that review of the US vendors, the cards on that list can have monthly fees as high as $9.95--some of which can be waived if you meet certain conditions (ie: $1000 transferred to the account for one card, and next month's fee is waived). There was only ONE card in that entire round-up (on page 3) that didn't list a potential monthly fee--$4.95 activation, get charged fees if you use a PIN/Signature to buy things (ie: use in a store) and other various fees (basically, if you only use it for online stuff, charge it by direct deposit, etc., you won't get bombarded with fees unless there is a currency exchange, which gets handled by Visa and has a 2.95% fee).

The POINT was you need to do the legwork and really go over the agreement before you sign up for any prepaid (or even a regular credit card for that matter) or you might wind up getting hit by fees you aren't expecting. That is what we are seeing from a lot of people who signed up with C&B--they weren't fully aware of what will be going on when they use the service, and are getting hit by additional costs to use them. That US review is just a convenient example to show just how much the terms can vary, as that information was readily available--unlike that site you linked where you have to contact them directly to get the terms instead of simply clicking a link to pull it up online.

And again...either way, it is still a manual process just like buying Crysta. You still have to make sure the money is sitting there in advance before the billing takes place. Which, kinda defeats one of the primary reasons behind signing up with a Credit Card in the first place--to automate the process. All of this would be virtually unnecessary for the existing client base as of July/2011 if they would just extend the direct bill with a 3DS card option through SE just like they have continued to do for just the JP region.

[Korpg]

RAIST, why are you comparing US prepaid cards when I'm talking about INTERNATIONAL prepaid cards?

Yeah, most of them will have a fee, generally a one-time charge to buy the card, but other than that, it is still a way to pay for this game. It is as simple as that, but you have to try to complicate things by putting your tinfoil hat on and ramble on about SE and them trying to take away this game from all non-JP players (as stated by your last paragraph above).

But you would just accuse me of not reading. I'm sorry if I ignore the posts that you put on your tinted glasses on just so you can see only one shade of color, instead of immersing yourself into possibilities. You like to shoot down anything that can be a solution, because you want to go back to the old system. Well, tough nuts, it isn't going back, and staying in the past will make you be left behind (pun intended).

[RAIST]

RAIST, why are you comparing US prepaid cards when I'm talking about INTERNATIONAL prepaid cards?

As I stated in those posts that you seem to not have read fully---the company you referenced provided no means to pull up the credit card agreement. You have to contact them seperately to get that information--not exactly a convenient way to shop for a payment solution.

The US site I referenced DOES give you a quick and easy way to look at the terms. It was done to illustrate the variances that can exist for prepaid cards within the same region.


Yeah, most of them will have a fee, generally a one-time charge to buy the card, but other than that, it is still a way to pay for this game. It is as simple as that, but you have to try to complicate things by putting your tinfoil hat on and ramble on about SE and them trying to take away this game from all non-JP players (as stated by your last paragraph above).
I never stated SE is "trying to take away this game from all non-JP players "--that's your conspiracy there. The fact is though, that this move IS preventing SOME players from being able to pay (can't use C&B, can't use Crysta, can't pay directly through SE anymore...so no way to play). Regardless of why it was done--the result is that this move may very well force some users out of the game because they are left with no way to pay under their exisitng circumstances, which IS easily remedied by simple extending the directpay option to all regions and not just the JP region--as it would restore their CURRENT payment method.

Post a link to a site that allows us to view the the terms of use for some international cards so people can actually see what they are getting into if they opt to go that route so people can make an informed decision. All I'm saying, is do the research first before siging up.

Just because in your particular case it may not be costing you any fees, that may not hold true for everyone, based on A.) where they live (as evidenced by the disclaimer on their own site) and B.) the exact way they may have to use it may differ from you and it may trip up fees for them. Without the FACTS (as in being able to see the agreement), you can't declare absolutely how that line of cards will work for others--much less if the particular card you have is even available to these players having issues getting a card to work (again, as evidenced by their own disclaimer, some cards may not be available in some regions).

And what of the issue of having to keep the card pre-loaded to pay your account--it's not automated at all. It's just like using Crysta--have to make sure the currency is there for each cycle, unlike using a real credit card that will process automatically each month. Based on various factors (again, unkown without seeing an actual agreement), keeping that card active and loaded MIGHT cause fees for other users because of where they live. You seem to be ignoring this fact that IS a real possibility. Without knowing the facts because there is no way to review an agreement, this is an UNKNOWN VARIABLE, and is thus something to be concerned about. Which leads us to the rest of your post....


But you would just accuse me of not reading. I'm sorry if I ignore the posts that you put on your tinted glasses on just so you can see only one shade of color, instead of immersing yourself into possibilities. You like to shoot down anything that can be a solution, because you want to go back to the old system. Well, tough nuts, it isn't going back, and staying in the past will make you be left behind (pun intended).

So... you think it's all conspiratory, and will make up your own conspiracy theories to justify glossing over/ignoring details clearly stated, based on facts found under research (or the lack of evidence, as I can't find any of the details on any of the credit cards from that site other than vague references to fees being "reasonable" and needing to contact them directly to get the details). I'm looking for facts to compare the payment options. you have provided no facts other than "It works for me". That means nothing as we know nothing about how your particular card works in regards to the options currently being compared as an option for payment to SE in each of our individual circumstances. That's not conspiratorial--it's questioning the facts in the case that have yet to be presented by you are any company you've refrerenced. Facts are facts. Lack of facts, leaves things open to speculation based on the facts that are known (reference how much agreements can vary with the cards offered in the US).

I've seen enough people get hit by unexpected fees over the years, and I have been involved with setting up these payment systems and had to double/triple check the web pages to make sure everything was disclosed to a customer before they click the "Submit" button. I've been involved with researching payment processors before putting together proposals for companies we were selling our applications to--had to take into account expected traffic flow and such to negotiate discount rates, variances in fees for handling debit vs. actual credit cards--all that jazz. Forgive me if it makes me a little bit cautious when getting into any kind of credit card agreement. I simply like to know what I'm getting into before I commit to a CONTRACT that makes me LIABLE for costs incurred to use a payment instrument before I sign that contract. So, I believe in doing a little research first rather than just blindly applying for something simply because a stranger says "It worked for me".

It's not conspiracy theory....it's experience that has taught me the meaning of "Buyer Beware".



Edit:
after a little digging, it appears the company Korpg referenced is (or was) actually US based, just happens to have a footprint in the UK as well. Company profile as published Sept. 2010:
http://www.gcoupon.com/view/internet/155004/globalebanking.com

and their WHOIS lookup at Godaddy also places them in California as of Jan. 2011:
http://who.godaddy.com/whois.aspx?domain=globalebanking.com&prog_id=GoDaddy

So, it looks like Korpg infact got a prepaid CC through a US company that has a branch in the UK as well. I would hazard a guess you may find similar options with many major financial institutions. So if someone wants to look into this they might be able to do something with their own bank if it's a big chain--just make sure to get all the details up front in regards to how you intend to use it. Pay special attention to using it online with a UK based company, and just exactly what fees you might expect--won't likely be an exchange fee, but make sure to get clarification on international transaction fees in regards to C&B. Some of these cards can still trip a transaction fee depending on how the Point of Sale (POS) is set up.

[Maevia]

Hello. I live in Thailand & as of end of this month will be unable to play FFXI. Click & Buy do not accept payments from people living in South East Asia, regardless of where the bank is based. I have a UK Debit card at a UK bank, a UK residence, alll of which I typed into Click and Buy, whereupon they logged my IP as Thailand and told me "C&B products are not available in your country."

This is actually xenophobic bordering on racist. Crysta bought by anny means is not for sale in Thailand or SEA. C&B do not allow Mastercards , Visa Debit, or any other card registered in Europe etc. to be used, if they log your computer IP as being in south east asia you are blocked. I am half English/half Thai and I have a home in both countries, and bank cards in England & Thai too.

I have been paying for Final Fantasy EVERY MONTH SINCE 2003 using my Credit Cards which are registered in England at Barclays Bank. Now, Click and Buy reject my CC because my current nation of residence is Thailand.

Square Enix. I publically accuse you of racism/ xenophobia. Your long-time customer, with a job and several valid credit cards is being kicked from Final Fantasy next week because they live in South East Asia.

I dont even want to hear about 10000s of posts re: C&B and people leaving, people are posting becauuse this Click and Buy policy is utterly outrageous. If you dont want to read posts by other FFXI fans, dont go on the forum community page.

Im speaking on behalf of the many many gamers who , as of this month, are NOT ALLOWED TO PAY for Ffxi because OF THEIR HOME NATION. Thats just bigotry . /

[Korpg]

It is not SE who is being xenophobia, but you should talk to them about a different method of payment though. They still have the direct method open for JP players, I bet you if you get a JP bank account and transfer funds over there, you can pay directly to SE. But that method would be a lot of work, so I don't suggest that, unless you happen to have an alien registration card on hand, which is near impossible to get.

But instead of calling SE names and falsely accusing them of being xenophobes, you should actually contact customer service. I doubt anyone here has done that at all, they rather gripe instead.

Click and Buy doesn't accept certain countries because of banking regulations in those countries, not because they hate those countries. It is to protect the international community due to certain countries inability to check their own people for fraud and, in some cases, actually encourage theft of the international community (see: Nigeria). But that is a different topic altogether.

You really should talk to SE instead of accusing them of being racist/xenophobic. Doesn't make you look any better tbh.

[Maevia]

I'm not calling anyone any names. I'm apply a label to SE, a label which fiits like a glove.

Actually SE are the ones who have banned the sale of Crysta in South East Asia, by any payment method. They have also made C&B compulsory for credit-cards, and C&B refus to deal with anybody living in the South East Asia region regardless of if the CC is European & the CC-holder has an address/citizenship in Europe.

Xenophobia = prejudice against a specific nation/ality. I'm not allowed to pay for FFXI membership any longer because I live in Thailand. That xenophobia. And you laughably say dont blame SE. Who made these new rules? Mary Poppins?

[Korpg]

I'm not calling anyone any names. I'm apply a label to SE, a label which fiits like a glove.

Actually SE are the ones who have banned the sale of Crysta in South East Asia, by any payment method. They have also made C&B compulsory for credit-cards, and C&B refus to deal with anybody living in the South East Asia region regardless of if the CC is European & the CC-holder has an address/citizenship in Europe.

Xenophobia = prejudice against a specific nation/ality. I'm not allowed to pay for FFXI membership any longer because I live in Thailand. That xenophobia. And you laughably say dont blame SE. Who made these new rules? Mary Poppins?

Have you tried Ultimate Pay yet? Unless I'm mistaken, there is more than one way to pay for this game.

Besides, that list of countries that SE "banned" the sale of Crysta? Looks a lot like Click and Buy's list of countries banned. Why not call Click and Buy also and try to arrange payment, instead of complaining on a forum. You know, solutions work out when you put effort into it, not when you sit around with your hands under your rump doing nothing.

[Maevia]

Have you tried Ultimate Pay yet? Unless I'm mistaken, there is more than one way to pay for this game.

Besides, that list of countries that SE "banned" the sale of Crysta? Looks a lot like Click and Buy's list of countries banned. Why not call Click and Buy also and try to arrange payment, instead of complaining on a forum. You know, solutions work out when you put effort into it, not when you sit around with your hands under your rump doing nothing.

How do you know if I put in lots of effort or not? Maybe I'm in a wheelchair and spend a lot of time "sitting on my rump" as you so offensively say to me for no reason. Infact I am in a wheelchair.

Maybe I just spent 9 hours repeatedly trying first to buy crysta and then trying to register for C&B using TWO seperate United Kingdom CC cards. And was blocked *after* filling in all the card security codes and details btw, so C&B got the ghost script of all my secure card details & ID template before they then finally announced "these products are not available in your nation".

You're idea of me registering for a Japanese bank card is absurd. Japan is not easy to get national status for a foreigner, let alone bank cards.

I have two valid credit cards already, both UK & good quality, an income and I'm a home-owner with no criminal record. But as of this month end, I am not allowed to play FFXI any longer because I live in South East Asia.

The idea that SEA and China are the only credit-card Fraud hotspots and have unstable banking is absurd. There's a thriving ID Fraud business in the USA and the UK and allover the world.

Additionally, my bank is Barclays UK and is not a banking risk and thats where my money is & thats the card has SE has happily accepted payments from for 8 years until this month .

But Euro/US areas are not blocked from using Crysta or from using Credit Card at C&B.

Other areas have been blocked, in a very lazy broadbrush and yes xenophobic manner. Thailand has a lot of hi-skilled gamers & many ffxi fans live here too. Now as of this month we cannot play FFXI even though we bought legitimate copies of the game and paid SE every month for nearly a decade. See also Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam,etc.etc.etc.

No matter how many tiny holes you try to pick in my complaint, and it is a complaint, you are totally avoiding the main point: some ppl are getting banned from FFXI this month not because of breaking game rules or for non-payment of their account fees, but simply because of their geographcal location on this planet. I guess nobody told Square Enix about the "World Wide Web" or about modern standards of customer service in the 21st Century.

[Kraggy]

Other areas have been blocked, in a very lazy broadbrush and yes xenophobic manner.
Your post was looking good until you chose to play the 'racist card', using the word xenophobic to try to make it look a more intellectual argument.

[Maevia]

Your post was looking good until you chose to play the 'racist card', using the word xenophobic to try to make it look a more intellectual argument.

A) It wasn't an argument, it was a genuine *complaint* by me based on my own empirical evidence.
B) You adress none of the points I make relating to lots of people losing the FFXI Accounts this month because of their nation of residence. You dont adress those points I made. You just troll without actually answering any of the valid points.
C) "Your post was looking good" is so very lol indeed, like I care about proving or making some kind of well recieved post on *any* forum. I was complaining about SE/FFxi current crisis, on the SE/FFxi official members site. Not arguing, not trying to make 'good looking posts'.
D) If you block millions of people from a network based on those peoples ethnicity/national origin, that is "xenophobic" > the prejudice against people from lands other than JP/Euro/US. "Oh youve got a genuine credit card, job, money in bank, high-speed internet, original copy of the game - but you can't play the game because you are a Thai person" - thats racism.

[Korpg]

The idea that SEA and China are the only credit-card Fraud hotspots and have unstable banking is absurd. There's a thriving ID Fraud business in the USA and the UK and allover the world.


Sorry, maybe you misunderstood my post (actually, it was the one before that that pointed out why Click and Buy doesn't support it, but I guess you glossed over that part since I'm not agreeing with your viewpoint) but it is the banking regulations, not ID Fraud (although, you are also mistaken, more than half of the ID fraud in the world happens in, you guessed it, in developing nations, like those in South East Asia and Africa).

But, you still haven't said you talked to anyone. You said you spent time trying to pay for this game. Here is some advice for the third time: talk to Customer Service, including but not limited to, Square Enix and Click and Buy. You might be surprised, they will probably help you. And maybe you might lose that xenophobic attitude of yours.

[Neonii]

Sorry, maybe you misunderstood my post (actually, it was the one before that that pointed out why Click and Buy doesn't support it, but I guess you glossed over that part since I'm not agreeing with your viewpoint) but it is the banking regulations, not ID Fraud (although, you are also mistaken, more than half of the ID fraud in the world happens in, you guessed it, in developing nations, like those in South East Asia and Africa).

But, you still haven't said you talked to anyone. You said you spent time trying to pay for this game. Here is some advice for the third time: talk to Customer Service, including but not limited to, Square Enix and Click and Buy. You might be surprised, they will probably help you. And maybe you might lose that xenophobic attitude of yours.

Earnest question you are really ok with a company asking customers to jump through all those type of hoops to give them money? This is good customer service?

[Octaviane]

Maevia -

It's really not a race issue, rather a failure on SE's part to perform Due Diligence and see the bigger picture when choosing the options they did. Also, never give personal information about yourself in Public Forums. There are some who in their ignorance might use it against you.

[Panthera]

There's one of two possibilities here.

A) SE didn't research implementation of Billing 2.0 adequately. They didn't realize they would lose so many customers for so many reasons. They're desperately trying to fix the problem.

---or---

B) SE thoroughly researched the implications of Billing 2.0. After cost analysis, they realized that they cannot afford a large scale operation, and they'd make more money by limiting who can play.


Either way, I don't think SE "hates" this group or that. They're a business, and money is money.

I myself tend to believe that "A" is true, or "more" true than "B". They're not perfect, they can't see the future. I believe this because I'm not perfect and I can't see the future. If it were me, I would want to get people playing, and keep people playing. Wouldn't you?

[Maevia]

Maevia -

It's really not a race issue, rather a failure on SE's part to perform Due Diligence and see the bigger picture when choosing the options they did. Also, never give personal information about yourself in Public Forums. There are some who in their ignorance might use it against you.

Actually I said before, their actions of banning people from certain countries is a xenophobic act. They have chosen some countries, a lot of countries actually and said "you are not acceptable to be our customers" & that is xenophobia - prejudice against specific nations. The reasons given are non-existent. The Forum Troll here keeps saying it is banking regulations in South East Asia (also a racist comment since Bangkok Bank is one of the success storys of modern banking)but infact I am using UK cards/bank for S.E. Acc. and so my Thai residency should not have any relation too these "banking regulation" theories.

I notice that you are picking small holes in linguistics & yet totally ignore my point - people are getting kicked from the game based on their nationality.

AS for your "advice" on what details I reveal on Forums;

A) Im 40 years old & having been using computers daily since 1980. I'm guessing you haven't done this & as so I dont want or need your advice on how to use computers. The information I gave out : Im disabled, I have UK bank cards, I live in Thailand. This is NOT ID-Fraud template material.

B)Ironically in your haste to defend SE you are overlooking that Click&Buy are skimming ID-Templates from ppl who are then rejected for the service afterwards on xenophobic (country of nationhood) reasons. These ID-templates that may well be sold on for all we know. Ironically the only time I've had my CC hacked was not in Thailand or China or SEA or Africa, but in Europe in a high-street furniture shop where they were skimming ID-templates and card secures and selling them to ID-Fraud syndicate also based in Europe. And yet SE and C&B have not banned Euro or US ppl from registering, despite the credit-card scam industrys there.

[Octaviane]

"I notice that you are picking small holes in linguistics & yet totally ignore my point - people are getting kicked from the game based on their nationality".

False....the real issue for you is your IP address, which, regardless of how many UK CC's you have or any other come to that, simply states that the option to use C&B is not available in your region and has nothing to do with your Nationality. That is not racism. It is however, the fault of SE for not seeing the big picture and realizing that they would likely lose some of its customer base because of the options given not being available everywhere..

"AS for your "advice" on what details I reveal on Forums;

A) Im 40 years old & having been using computers daily since 1980. I'm guessing you haven't done this & as so I dont want or need your advice on how to use computers. The information I gave out : Im disabled, I have UK bank cards, I live in Thailand. This is NOT ID-Fraud template material".

My Employer is going to be really upset to find out that after all these years I am unable to use a Computer. Sarcasm intended.

Your disability has no bearing on your inability to pay and play and is the kind of thing that should be kept out of Forum discussions. You found it necessary to include it because the "Forum Troll" as you put it said something that offended you, eliciting exactly the response he was looking for.

Just because you have UK bank cards means nothing, people who live in the UK and have them are sometimes unable to pay via C&B using them, my sister is an example....go figure, she tried it, epic fail. At least you weren't asked to provide sensitive information such as copies of Driver's Licenses, Birth Certificates, Passports, length of toenails and fingernails, height, weight, hair and eye color to prove who they were. Just WHAT would you have said then? IF you HAD bothered to take note of any of the posts in the main thread addressing these problems you would know these details about C&B.

I don't think I said that your post was without merit, nor am I defending SE, but, your use of the "race" card is inappropriate and uncalled for. I find it interesting that when something goes wrong like this that there are just that certain % of people who will pull out a race or some other form of "poor me, I am being persecuted" card. There are many people here who COULD have used the same "race" card regarding the ability of JP to still use CC's and buy exact amounts of Crysta, but they didn't. There are many who could use the same "race" card all over the world because not all options are available in all countries or regions, but they didn't. There are Australians, Russians, South Americans, Canadians, British, Americans and many other Nationalities who for whatever reason don't have the options available that have been offered. Neither SEA nor any other region has been singled out as regions that are considered a bad risk. It is simply a matter of SE having their collective heads stuck in the sand and not realizing the consequences of their actions in their haste to implement changes to the payment system.

The bottom line is SE's bottom line, and, IF it is is substantially impacted by the choices/decisions thay have made, PERHAPS they will see the error of their ways. Please don't hold your breath though.

[Korpg]

Earnest question you are really ok with a company asking customers to jump through all those type of hoops to give them money? This is good customer service?

If these hoops are set into place for your protection, and (in this case) the hoops are one time only, then yes. It is excellent customer service, and anyone who is complaining about it really needs to open their eyes beyond the screen in front of them into a world of reality.

[Korpg]

Actually I said before, their actions of banning people from certain countries is a xenophobic act. They have chosen some countries, a lot of countries actually and said "you are not acceptable to be our customers" & that is xenophobia - prejudice against specific nations. The reasons given are non-existent. The Forum Troll here keeps saying it is banking regulations in South East Asia (also a racist comment since Bangkok Bank is one of the success storys of modern banking)but infact I am using UK cards/bank for S.E. Acc. and so my Thai residency should not have any relation too these "banking regulation" theories.

I notice that you are picking small holes in linguistics & yet totally ignore my point - people are getting kicked from the game based on their nationality.

AS for your "advice" on what details I reveal on Forums;

A) Im 40 years old & having been using computers daily since 1980. I'm guessing you haven't done this & as so I dont want or need your advice on how to use computers. The information I gave out : Im disabled, I have UK bank cards, I live in Thailand. This is NOT ID-Fraud template material.

B)Ironically in your haste to defend SE you are overlooking that Click&Buy are skimming ID-Templates from ppl who are then rejected for the service afterwards on xenophobic (country of nationhood) reasons. These ID-templates that may well be sold on for all we know. Ironically the only time I've had my CC hacked was not in Thailand or China or SEA or Africa, but in Europe in a high-street furniture shop where they were skimming ID-templates and card secures and selling them to ID-Fraud syndicate also based in Europe. And yet SE and C&B have not banned Euro or US ppl from registering, despite the credit-card scam industrys there.

To be honest, is your disability of yours preventing you from emailing customer service, assuming that you can't call and talk to them?

Also, I see a lot of hate in your life. I'm not going to ask what happened to cause you to be disabled, but I'm assuming that somebody caused it and you are resentful towards that person and pretty much all humanity because of it. Whatever it is, I'm sorry that you feel this way towards your fellow man. With time, you should come into terms with your disability and realize that whatever caused it was not intended. Unless the Mob did it. Then don't mess with criminals.

[Neonii]

If these hoops are set into place for your protection, and (in this case) the hoops are one time only, then yes. It is excellent customer service, and anyone who is complaining about it really needs to open their eyes beyond the screen in front of them into a world of reality.

I have worked in a job which has customer service aspects for over seventeen years. So I will respectfully disagree with you. My company does customer service surveys on a regular basis. I would suggest S.E. honestly acknowledge the the customer concerns and really address them.

They could post very clear step by step directions as to how to complete this process. Add a troubleshooting article. They could maybe have a special temp hot line with the number posted online dedicated to this process alone. Add customer service surveys even to check how they are doing.

It all comes down to how valuable a customer is to an entity IMO. Are your customers folks who whine and complain for no reason during a transition such as this? What would motivate them to behave in such a way? Do any of your customer have legit concerns? Folks don't like change and a good customer service department would anticipate the problems that come with transition and prepare for them.

What could have been done for the OP for example? S.E. could post a detailed statement addressed to those areas which were going to be excluded and explained the reason. They could make an apology and keep updating the customers on the progress they are making towards a remedy for the situation. Sure they did indicate it in a rather vague way but folks like details and to feel they are being heard.

It could go something like this:
To our valued customers in (insert area). Due to difficulties with (insert reason) we will be unable to offer service for (insert estimated time). We offer our humble apologies and are doing (insert actions) to remedy the situation. we have a special hot line to address your concerns (insert hot line phone number) ect.

Human nature being what it is imo its a bit much to expect customers to jump through hoops. It's up to the company to have an action plan and be accessible to customers. I have customers I have to walk through stuff all the time, sometimes more than once. But I do it with a smile over and over until they are satisfied. They are my customers and its my job to serve them not judge and ignore them.

[Maevia]

To be honest, is your disability of yours preventing you from emailing customer service, assuming that you can't call and talk to them?

Also, I see a lot of hate in your life. I'm not going to ask what happened to cause you to be disabled, but I'm assuming that somebody caused it and you are resentful towards that person and pretty much all humanity because of it. Whatever it is, I'm sorry that you feel this way towards your fellow man. With time, you should come into terms with your disability and realize that whatever caused it was not intended. Unless the Mob did it. Then don't mess with criminals.

I was born with multiple sclerosis in the brain and spine. I'm terminally ill. And you, you are a troll.

[Maevia]

"My Employer is going to be really upset to find out that after all these years I am unable to use a Computer. Sarcasm intended. "

Actually its REALLY patronising of you to offer a total stranger on the net "advice" on "safe posting in public forums", when you don't know that personmight be older than you and with many years more experience of the net than you. In addition, the details I divulged about myself were NOT in any way possible to be used by ID-fraud or any other online threat. So you were patronising me and for no reason.

[Darkwizardzin]

...This thread is fulled with so much hate. Maevia you can think what you want (that SE is being rasics/xenophobic) but tbh that doesn't make sence. SE isn't/wouldn't just make it so people in certant countys couldn't pay for the game just because they lived in so and so country without a reason. That is just throwing profits away...aka there money away and considering how the company is doing as a whole right now... that's incredibly stupid.

I don't aggre with this payment change (or the reasons for why they are doing it) but SE is a buzness... they run this to make as much money as they can. Cuting out countys solely based on them not being JP/EN/US does not make sence.

I get that your mad about your situation and you have a right to voice it... but claiming that SE is being xenophobic isn't going to make it that much more likly for SE to change there mind about the payment system.

[Neonii]

...This thread is fulled with so much hate. Maevia you can think what you want (that SE is being rasics/xenophobic) but tbh that doesn't make sence. SE isn't/wouldn't just make it so people in certant countys couldn't pay for the game just because they lived in so and so country without a reason. That is just throwing profits away...aka there money away and considering how the company is doing as a whole right now... that's incredibly stupid.

I don't aggre with this payment change (or the reasons for why they are doing it) but SE is a buzness... they run this to make as much money as they can. Cuting out countys solely based on them not being JP/EN/US does not make sence.

I get that your mad about your situation and you have a right to voice it... but claiming that SE is being xenophobic isn't going to make it that much more likly for SE to change there mind about the payment system.

I don't think it is racism personally, but in my opinion and I can only speak for myself a little more communication from S.E. would go a long way. Maybe they should explain in detail why certain areas are unable to pay. Knowledge is power and if folks have a logical explanation maybe they would be less likely to jump to conclusions. Even I have to admit S.E. does imo need to communicate more.

Edit: Me personally I think its frustration causing a lot of the rants on this thread my earlier ones included. Sometimes in situations like this folks need to get it off their chest.

[Korpg]

I was born with multiple sclerosis in the brain and spine. I'm terminally ill. And you, you are a troll.

wouldn't the UK be a better place for your disability then? You know, better medicine and facilities?

Or am I being a racist troll for suggesting otherwise?

[Revanchist]

I was going to comment again on your apparent condescending attitude etc Korpg, but now I think "Why bother?" You have your own opinion and disregard everyone else's opinion/view whatsoever. If that's what you enjoy doing, then 'keep on trolling'.

@Maevia : While I may agree with what you say, I do think you've given out too much information about yourself. All that's done, is given fuel to the trolls to use against you.

[Maevia]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).].

Go for it. Try and take out a loan or a CC using the ID I've given you : Maevia(a type of jumping spider found in the equatorial tropics), Thailand, Barclays, wheelchair, MS.
There you go. Build an ID-template with that stuff which will clear a Loans Agency or Refinancing agency etc. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

FYI to everyone who has commented on this : you need home adress, D.O.B., CC-details (inc. sec & doi), real name. For an ID Fraud template. I gave you 0/4 of these things that are essential for ID Fraud. So good luck.

Ironically Click & Buy have already skimmed the ghost script for ALL my ID-template and dual CC, before telling me Im rejected on grounds of nationality. They used IP logging so THEY COULD HAVE REJECTED ME BEFORE I FILLED IN THE SECURE I.D.TEMPLATE DETAILS, but for *some reason* they let you fill in alll the fields including card security no. and then they say we logged you as South East Asia & we don't accept people from that part of the world. Thats a classic scam - skim the ID template then reject the customer and move the ID to a seperate fraud syndicate.

As said before about ten years ago I was ID-frauded and not from posting in a Forum but from buying a table in a highstreet popular furniture shop in England. One of their cashiers was skimming CC-details and delivery adresses/names which *IS* what you need for ID Fraud, and selling them onto a syndicate based in France.. Again, this took them five minutes and was done while I was buying a table in a legitimate shop used by thousands of ppl. The person did it was caught before any of the loans & refinancings that they applied for in my ID was finalised, but he had previously skimmed another 500~ CC before he was caught and stolen approximately £800,000, all without his boss the owner of the furniture shop knowing about it.

RE: your prejudiced, bigoted, insulting attacks on my disability which are by the way against the Law in many countries, to publicallly mock and insult disabled people is actually a crime. I am genuinely disabled, and I live i Thailand partly because high-dose vitamin D from the sun is one of the only arresting factors in advanced MS, i.e. theres no cure but strong equatorial sunshine can slow the progress ,once you cross a certain point. I'm not rich either and in England the NHS is very FAIL & the private healthcare costs a fortune. Plus there is still not an effective medicine for MS. Modern doctors put you on a diet regimine and tell you to go out in the sun 3 hours/day.

[Neonii]

Maevia I think they were suggesting that personal information gives folks who troll information to use to mock you. It's really none of their business. I didn't get the impression that they were talking about credit cards. I can only speak for myself when I say I don't feel the need to justify anything to folks I feel are trolls. I would and have put folks on ignore when I felt they were making it personal.

[Maevia]

Maevia I think they were suggesting that personal information gives folks who troll information to use to mock you. It's really none of their business. I didn't get the impression that they were talking about credit cards. I can only speak for myself when I say I don't feel the need to justify anything to folks I feel are trolls. I would and have put folks on ignore when I felt they were making it personal.

Hi . I totally agree with you in most cases, certainly in FFXI (which I am getting kicked from in 2 weeks) I simply /blist people who are known RMT or basically act in a Not A Fan kind of way, I just /blist them. In-game my view is you start as a FF Fan, with a long culture behind you dating back to the off-line fanzines and fanbased community at the FF-1 era, where kids were sending eachother game hints & drawing fanzines out of love for the FF franchise, including myself. To me, to be a FF Fan means to not steal from otherr FF Fans ingame, so I always /blist ppl ingame if they steal from other fans. The helping-each-other as Fans is what made FF unique from the very start of the franchise and what seperates it from Lolwow etc. So ingame I dont have big flame wars with people, I blist them and get on withh doing what I spend most of my game doing - helping people on my LS & helping new players.

However. It seems my 8 years of friendly & curteous FFXI-gaming is going to end soon for the sole that I live in Thailand. ( one of the oldest countries on Earth by the way, formerly Siam & truly ancient by any standards and certainly not responsible for the Global Banking Crisis 2008 for which we can look West.) And as such I'm very ANGRY WITH SE and they DONT HELP ME ON THEIR SUPPORT DESK, so I am posting on the forums. I'm not sitting here laughing as I write this, I'm sad to be leaving a game I have so many long-time friends in. And as for Web Forums, if somebody singles out my post and starts taking shots at it, I will always respond as best I can & I don't use /ignore on forums. I''m just old & hard-headed I guess.