Future of Final Fantasy XI: Weapons

[Supersun]

As the level cap continues to climb to 99 one of the most exciting prospects is what new equipment awaits us at the horizon, but a dark shadow looms overhead. This threat silently sleeps closer to you then you may expect, something that threatens Vana'diel far more then the forces of Promathia. This threat is none other then the empyrean weapon equipped to your very waist. The future of SE's new up and coming end game content may entirely hinge on one question. Will an empyrean(85) be better then every other level 99 weapon?

Empyrean weapons have proved vastly easier to obtain then anyone could have expected. I don't think anyone could have predicted that there would be more Kannagis then 75+ Relics and Mythics combined and that for almost every weapon type there are more empyreans then gimpyreans. Will people still have an incentive to participate in future content when such an easy to get powerful weapon that's only going to get easier as the level cap increases.

We've already seen this happen with the Sagasinger. What normally would be an amazing sword is completely outclassed by the Almace. No one bothers with the Arch Dynamis Lord because a weapon that stomps it is readily obtainable with a minimal amount of work for the benefit gained. I mean the sword freakin glows and not even that is enough to get people to go after it seriously.

Returning to the question, will an Empyrean(85) be better then every other level 99 weapon? Empyrean weapons are indeed very strong. Strong enough that they currently blow every other weapon out of the water (Drg being an exception with its mythic). From a game design standpoint it would be a terrible mistake to make a weapon that only requires killing Carabosse and Cirein-croin to be stronger then a weapon that drops from the new absolute virtue. We've seen what happens when there's no major incentive to participate in an event. It becomes Chocobo raising.

I cannot give an answer to the question of whether empyrean(85)s will be stronger then level 99 weapons. I'm not psychic, but one thing is certain. Either newer weapons are going to gain a rather significant power-up or Empyrean(85)s are going to become the new Hagun.

[Gokku]

85's are already the new haguns , i was just talking in vent today about how ive yet to see a Ukon warrior with correct gear sets on , 90 or 85 same for monks nins etc. now most people with an 85 dont get 90 since they are working in groups and keep going and then theres the players that get 2-5 empys all 85 and who wont get them to 90 till the 95 cap makes it easyer.

tl:dr Easy content = mass productions New level cap = More easy content more mass production.

[Supersun]

I suspect the trials to get the level 95 and especially the 99 versions of the empyrean weapons are going to be a bit tougher to get making them not as mass producible. I mean I certainly don't mind a level 99 empyrean being stronger then other level 99 weapons. The issue I will have is if the level 85 versions are just going to crap on every other potential weapon SE ever makes for future content.

That or if Empyrean weapons are going to continue to be just as easy to upgrade as they are to get it might help to close the gap between them and other weapons that you obtain from other end game sources. I mean the point of an ultimate weapon is that they are rare and hard to get. If the ultimate weapon is as easier to get then a STD on prom night then it shouldn't be an ultimate weapon and be more relative to everything else.

[Runespider]

If they take emps beyond 90 they will have to make the new trials really really difficult, way too many people are geting emps and they can't have everyone overpowered. Strong overpowered weapons are supposed to be owned by a smaller number of players or balance goes totally out the window.

85 Ukon is ridicoulously overpowered for how easy it is to get.

[MarkovChain]

85 Ukon is ridicoulously overpowered for how easy it is to get.

Really ? On some sites people post their pictures of them getting level 85 one as an achievement. Looks like the elites are here ?

In all seriousness, it's not only a problem with weapons but also with gear. With all the +haste +str +att they introduced as well as the JA for melee jobs, it's not going to be hard, but impossible to improve gear through stats. Fstr has a cap, ratio has a cap, slow and paralyze have a MND cap, haste has a cap, pdt/mdt have a cap, and all of them are already easy to max as is.

If the new gear is going to be garbage improvement ( like say rancor collar : I mathed it to be +0.43% damage over time for -10% damage taken w for monk and I didn't even dig in the best beck slots obtainable through various augments like in the min- expansions) it's going to fail hard.


The new endgame gear/weapons must therefore come with special improvements (like atma type buffs on them : for instance crit +10% crit dmg +10%) on top of the natural melee buffs.

[Gokku]

you dont TP in rancor on monk you WS in it with victory smite. that being said alot of people dont treat 85 empy's as an accomplishment for the same reason they dont treat level 90 as one , its expected now and its so easy to get theres no valid reason not to have one.

[Zoner]

Watch Empyrean(lvl99) require you to turn in a fully upgraded Mythic, Relic, and Empyrean weapon. Final product: a weapon with combined stats that will let you use the WS from all 3.

Good way to make sure people don't completely forget the old content?

[Ironside]

Watch Empyrean(lvl99) require you to turn in a fully upgraded Mythic, Relic, and Empyrean weapon. Final product: a weapon with combined stats that will let you use the WS from all 3.

Good way to make sure people don't completely forget the old content?
Not sure if you're being serious, but I don't think you could include Mythic in that very easily; what would happen with Almace, for instance, would you have to turn in a Murgleis, a Tizona, and a Burtgang in addition to Almace 95 and Excalibur? :P

[Supersun]

I'm actually curious about how powerful weapons would have to become to beat even the level 85 empyrean weapons. I mean even excluding the weapon skill the ODD is pretty powerful. Given that the level one ODD aftermath activates ~30% of the time wouldn't that mean that weapons by 99 would need at least a 30% increase in their base damage?

I mean I'm no math wiz, but for something like the scythe that would require a weapon to have 165+ damage on it. At the rate that our weapons are upgrading I can't even see the level 99 empyrean scythe getting that much damage.

And that's not even touching the weapons skills...

(If I butchered that math forgive me XD)

[Olor]

Maybe I am crazy but it seems like it would actually be easier to balance the game when most people have about the same level of awesome weapon... Cause if you balance around only 1% or less of the population having a good weapon doesn't that mean you have to make everything easier so that the majority of the playerbase can participate in the content... or the "powerful" weapon not very powerful at all so that it doesn't make content too easy?

/shrugs

Honestly I am all for making good gear available to most of the playerbase. I think that the model whereby 1 person needs a whole LS to work for them to get a weapon for a long time sucks and creates drama. No thanks. I don't care if it makes your epeen feel smaller because more people have a good weapon. Too bad. I would rather have that than the elitist slave-labour culture that proliferated in the days of relics.

[Supersun]

Sure, the game would be easier to balance with everyone having the same level of weapon.
The game would also be easier to balance if everyone was forced to play the same job.

People may or may not enjoy those large LS events where the needs of a few are catered by the many, but that's more an issue with how content is designed then the weapon itself.

I don't mind stuff being not super difficult to get where you don't need 18 people for a .01% chance of a drop for 1 person, but I have an issue where after that style of content is eliminated there are still these super weapons that are superior to every other weapon, many of which may even be more difficult to get then the super weapon.

The point was that there will be no incentive to do future content as long as future weapons are going to be outclassed by an empyrean(85). I'm not saying you should necessarily make the emp worthless, but in order for people to actually have some level of motivation to participate in future events newer weapons are going to need to be as strong if not stronger then the level 85 emp weapons.

This isn't to say that the newer content needs to be super grindy like trying to get a defending ring from King Behemoth as that's more an issue with how the content and drop system is designed in of itself, but people simply won't even do newer content as long as the weapon of their dreams is under 100 kills away of easy NMs that will only get easier.

[Meyi]

I just hope Magian elemental weapons get a 95 and 99 upgrade. Maybe some more Magic Accuracy+ to the MACC+1 Damage+5 Cast time -12%. Or higher damage. :D

[Leonlionheart]

Well the problem wouldn't be hard to fix if say, they produce new weapons that have stats like "Raging Rush Damage +35% Crit Rate +10%, DA+10% TA+5%" on level 95 weapons, which would easily out do a 85 Ukon, other than maybe ODD, though TP gain will compensate. At the same time they could make 95 Emps require 100 Fazheluo Radiant Mails and give them WS damage +20%, making it actually desirable even when it seems nearly impossible to obtain.

[Supersun]

Certainly with jobs like warrior it wouldn't be too difficult to add a new weapon that might beat the 85 emp (though I'd be surprised ifr your average "endgame" weapon had that level of stats on it) since Warrior has always had a fairly strong arsenal of weapon skills, but for other jobs like Mnk and Nin where the weapon skill is a HUGE improvement over what they were originally using things will get a bit tougher.

You might be able to make it up with DoT for those jobs, but that ODD 30% + the massive upgrade in WS capability is a pretty big hurdle to climb for some jobs.

[MarkovChain]

Honestly I am all for making good gear available to most of the playerbase. I think that the model whereby 1 person needs a whole LS to work for them to get a weapon for a long time sucks and creates drama. No thanks. I don't care if it makes your epeen feel smaller because more people have a good weapon. Too bad. I would rather have that than the elitist slave-labour culture that proliferated in the days of relics.

Because there is no possibilities between the old relic system and the current empy system ? If Abyssea had a 3-man (minimum) entry requirements and 2h limit you wouldn't see as many verethragna as destroyers. You would see a lot more than relic though, so that woudl put them on the same level as salvage gear was = an event that any LS can do, small or big. The amount of persons in your LS has never been a good indication of the quality of your gear anyway...

[Sparthos]

We've already seen this happen with the Sagasinger. What normally would be an amazing sword is completely outclassed by the Almace. No one bothers with the Arch Dynamis Lord because a weapon that stomps it is readily obtainable with a minimal amount of work for the benefit gained. I mean the sword freakin glows and not even that is enough to get people to go after it seriously.

One reason you don't see many Sagasingers going around is because Dynamis isn't really popular unless you're there to do currency for a relic or cross off old items you didn't get before. Incentive for a group to run Xarcabard is pretty minimal.

Also, SE could you be any lazier with the implementation of the Arch Dynamis Lord?

After releasing the well designed Fiat Lux, we get a copy/paste Dynamis Lord battle with clones that exist solely to wipe you since you cannot deal with them short of beating the ADL before he beats you.

[Supersun]

I agree, but part of that is because of a lack of reward for the effort.

I mean if the level 95 empyrean weapon required 50 items that dropped from the dynamis lord I don't think it would be accurate to say that "dynamis isn't popular" at that point anymore.

The reason it isn't popular is because of a lack of decent rewards.

It's disappointing because the new dynamis is probably one of the best designed systems the game has to offer at the moment, but no one does it because they botched what gear drops from it. There's no reason to get much in there because for the most part AF3+2 and Emp weapons are just better.

SE has plans to revamp other end game content in the future, but they will suffer the same fate as well if loot is just inferior to current existing stuff that's easier to get. If the other redone 75 endgame content is designed as well as the new dynamis I don't want to see it follow up with the same fate. Even newer end game content might be vulnerable to this the the drops aren't up to snuff.

[Panthera]

Relics and Mythics were difficult to get because they had to stretch out what was then end game content. Empyreans are easy to get because they don't have to stretch out the content for the level cap. They will be outclassed when the time comes, there is no question about that. So when that happens, no one can QQ because it's not like they put in nearly the kind of time that Relic and Mythic holders did.

There will be new "final, ultimate" weapons and armor. The stats will be as-yet unheard of, rare, and overpowered. They will take a very, very long time to get.

[Atomic_Skull]

One reason you don't see many Sagasingers going around is because Dynamis isn't really popular unless you're there to do currency for a relic or cross off old items you didn't get before.
The reason you don't see many Sagasingers is because it's absolutely not worth the effort to obtain one so long as Almace exists.

[Modoru]

The reason you don't see many Sagasingers is because it's absolutely not worth the effort to obtain one so long as Almace exists.

E-peen is reason enough!

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

for other jobs like Mnk and Nin where the weapon skill is a HUGE improvement over what they were originally using things will get a bit tougher

Separate the weapon from the WS, like they did for mythics. Both relic and empy WS should be unlockable by 99. Then SE can just balance the stats on the weapons, and not have to worry about whether the WS is too overpowered compared to other WS available to the job.

[Gokku]

for other jobs like Mnk and Nin where the weapon skill is a HUGE improvement over what they were originally using things will get a bit tougher

Separate the weapon from the WS, like they did for mythics. Both relic and empy WS should be unlockable by 99. Then SE can just balance the stats on the weapons, and not have to worry about whether the WS is too overpowered compared to other WS available to the job.

they did this with WoE wep's and if i had to put a guess as to why it wasnt done in the same manner as mythic ws's its this. Mythic ws's werent all GREAT or over powered they didnt for the most part change any jobs.* Drakesbane is probably the only true exception to this*. Then you add in the original difficulty of obtaining the base weapon Nysule 1-100 making the ws only appear on mythics would have been a slap in the face. Moogle trials in comparison were extremly easy and by the time 85's came out the biggest issues were trying to figure out HOW to pop chloris without getting all the KI's just from a chest. Most top tier players already had there final moogle weps waiting for the update.