DRG Manifesto Ideas/Changes

[Amador]

So, after having read the Samurai Manifesto...

Would it be possible to allow Dragoon to have Quadruple Attack 5-10%?

Considering Warrior has 15% Double Attack After Merits, Thief has 10% Triple Attack After Merits, and Samurai basically has 10% Double Attack due to Zanshin. Can we give the above to Dragoon?

If not the above, how about an Occassionally Jump's Monster on Attack? Similar to Double Attack. At a 10% Activation rate?

Further more, could Dragoon gain access to Great Sword use? It's rather silly the main Knight Classes get it, but Dragoon get's a decent list of nothingness that is practical or useful other than Staff, which should be a higher weapon Grade. A-, A+ Skill would be fitting.

Could Dragoon gain access to Cataclysm?

Can Dragoon gain a Critical Hit Rate +% Increase Job Trait?

Can Dragoon gain a Attack Boosting ability similar to Berserk?

Will Dragoon gain any stances, like those of Samurai?

These type of additions would really put Dragoon on par, with the new up coming job adjustments, they're leaving Dragoon behind as is and only increasing their relation with the Wyvern. Which will regardless, leave Dragoon in the dust.

Dev team, please consider ._.; Thanks for reading!

[Ophannus]

Think DNC is gonna be getting Quadruple Attack, it fits their theme more. Hard to justify Quadruple Attack when DRG kinda already has something better, our Wyvern adding 50-80 damage every 300 delay and 100-250 damage added to our WS from breaths. It looks like weak damage from a pet but if you ignore the source, what difference is it from a WAR getting 200-300 extra damage on their WS from Berserk and us getting 100-250 damage extra to our WS from a Flame Breath?

A trait they can give us would be like that 'Occasionally Ignores Defense" trait I came up with; it would be DRG's trait to compare with Kick Attacks/Zanshin/Triple Attack/Quick Draw/Double Attack etc. When it activates, it ignores a portion of the mob's defense for that attack. It could activate at a base% of 5% and be upgraded through merits much like WAR/THF/MNK/SAM upgrading their trait through merits.

[Amador]

Dancer will be getting Triple Attack, they already discussed this. Quadruple Attack is rather a new implementation to the game as a whole.

Dragoon has always been known for being able to attack multiple times with their lances, just like our WS's are all mainly multi-hit.

The difference is obvious in Double Attack +15% and Breath Attack that gets resisted on anything worth anything, while that double attack doesn't. So the difference is quite huge, when it contributes to WS frequency and WS's that deal high thousand mark damage points.

A trait which occasionally ignores defense would be pointless in a situation where you have a corsair, and achieve a high attack rating on a monster over their defense. The difference in damage would be negligible, and unimpressive. So no, it wouldn't compare with Kick Attacks, Zanshin, Triple Attack. Quick Draw is irrelevant, and Double Attack is beyond is the same as the others.

The idea for Dragoon to gain a multi-hit type attack such as Double Attack/Triple Attack/Zanshin is so that it -can- actually compete you have to keep in mind that these abilities, increase the WS frequency, and provide solid consistant damage to boot.

Saying our Wyvern can use a breath for 250 damage is over estimating yourself, on -everything-. The practicality of a job is it's usefulness in end game content, not on EP-T Monsters which mean absolutely nothing.

[noodles355]

Dancer will be getting Triple Attack, they already discussed this.It was suggested they are getting a force-triple attack ability (like Assassin's Charge). Not that they were gating a native triple attack trait.

Don't post incorrect assumptions as fact.

[Amador]

Simply stated they were getting it, I didn't list any details due to not caring. So, irrelevant post is irrelevant.

Be it forced or not, it's still a type of. Don't post corrections that don't need correcting.

[Ophannus]

They already have Sabre Dance though, I don't see *why* they need Triple Attack at all...
I just don't see us getting Quadra Attack, it's too overpowered for a Job like DRG that has a high base dmg weapon. If we got it, it would most likely be a 1-2% proc rate since it seem the more hits in the trait, the lower the frequency i.e DA is 10% TA is 5% so QA would have to be like 2-2.5% at most. That being said a QA Proc on Drakesbane or Jump would be absolutely devastating not even taking into account DRG AF3 set effect or ODD from Empyrean. Dragoon doesn't really need an offensive boost as much as we need more defensive capabilities. We can dish out damage all day but /SAM's Third eye and 3min Super Jump only goes so far. Some kind of decaying PDT like Sentinel or a Wyvern Cover or something to keep us alive. MNK can out damage us and outlive us through counter/perfect counter/guard/high hp etc. WAR has retalation which even though doesn't mitigate damage, still let's them kill whatever they're fighting faster to end the fight sooner esp if they have Ukon. SAM has native Seigan giving them the option to sub NIN if they want for Utsu, DRK has Dread Spikes, Stun, Drain and Weapon bash, etc...

[Amador]

Considering the revisions they're making on Samurai, and Warrior why not?

Everyone is getting significant damage boosts, yet you're happy being sub par, as long as you can live a bit longer?

They want the community to speak out, and say what they want. So far, the community wants pretty Wyvern colors, and Stout Servant, and bigger Wyverns to better show off the pretty colors.

It's never just 10%, 5%, include the merits that they can obtain, the gear that can be worn, and these jobs are looking at give or take 25-40% DA/TA rate. You want to consider Quad Atk as overly powerful, it's something I threw out there.

Personally, I'd like an Occasionally Jump's Mob type of DA, our own personal little unique trait.

You could list forever the things SAM, and WAR has. Traits, abilities, gears. They're catered to jobs, simple.

As far as Dancer goes, it's not a set in stone thing just yet. Because of Saber Dance is why I think it'll probably just be some type of boost to triple attack, maybe a samba of sorts. Since it would make Sabre Dance worthless since everyone would just spam the triple attack proc stuff. However, we'll see.

[noodles355]

As far as Dancer goes, it's not a set in stone thing just yet. Because of Saber Dance is why I think it'll probably just be some type of boost to triple attack, maybe a samba of sorts. Since it would make Sabre Dance worthless since everyone would just spam the triple attack proc stuff. However, we'll see.I would think it more likely to be something along the lines of an Assassin's Charge style flourish. Concidering the notes say "Adding an ability that allows for a triple attack."

[Ophannus]

MNK is more likely to get Quadra attack. Historically in older FF games (FF1/3) Monk/Black Belt was the first job to get as high as 16 hits without haste. As levels rose depending on hit% and agi, Monk's hits per attack round increased the fastest,followed by Thief/ Ninja then Warrior/Knight. Translated to FFXI, I see MNK getting Quaruple Attack since THF has Triple and WAR has Double. Also h2h WS have more hits than Polearm WS.

[Amador]

I would think it more likely to be something along the lines of an Assassin's Charge style flourish. Concidering the notes say "Adding an ability that allows for a triple attack."

Yes, this is correct however they post also stated that things aren't set in stone. Just an idea of what is to come. We'll see.

[Amador]

MNK is more likely to get Quadra attack. Historically in older FF games (FF1/3) Monk/Black Belt was the first job to get as high as 16 hits without haste. As levels rose depending on hit% and agi, Monk's hits per attack round increased the fastest,followed by Thief/ Ninja then Warrior/Knight. Translated to FFXI, I see MNK getting Quaruple Attack since THF has Triple and WAR has Double. Also h2h WS have more hits than Polearm WS.

This isn't discuss and direct your attention to MNK. Go post on MNK Forums about what you think MNK should get.

I think DRG should get a multi-attack % proc chance trait. Quadruple was an idea due to it having been introduced and presented on an item that Dragoon can wear. Simple.

The ideas I have presented are ideas that revolve around the Dragoon to make it a more rounded damage dealer overall. I would like for the ideas in this thread to continue being directed that way rather than branching off on to, other jobs which are getting/have gotten better job adjustments than. "The jumps you are no longer using, are gaining worthless additions to still remain, unused by you."

[noodles355]

MNK is more likely to get Quadra attack. Historically in older FF games (FF1/3) Monk/Black Belt was the first job to get as high as 16 hits without haste. As levels rose depending on hit% and agi, Monk's hits per attack round increased the fastest,followed by Thief/ Ninja then Warrior/Knight. Translated to FFXI, I see MNK getting Quaruple Attack since THF has Triple and WAR has Double. Also h2h WS have more hits than Polearm WS.It's also a general RPG thing. Never played any other form of D&D but on neverwinter nights, monk was the only class that could get 10 hits per round.

[Amador]

General RPG things don't really apply to FF11, or to FF in general especially not D&D things. SQE has developed their own ideas within their own games.

I'd hate to see Final Fantasy 11 drawing ideas from D&D.

[noodles355]

A lot of general RPG ideas apply to FF games.

[Amador]

That still doesn't bind the idea of other jobs attacking more than once per turn simply because D&D, or other RPG's felt that way.

SQE's originality is not bound, or limited by others. They are their own company, and own franchise of FF, and others for a reason. They draw from mythology, history, and present day ideas. Not what Sony RPG's or Atlus is thinking. Certainly not how many dice rolls it's gonna cost you to deal 10 damage to the Beholder so your level 14 Paladin of Blah Blah can level up and use it's Vorpal Sword.

[noodles355]

I smell a fanboy. Almost every RPG has classes which attack slower and those which attack faster. They are generic elements. Monks attacking faster or having higher than average attack rounds (or the max possible attack rounds) is not just a final fantasy thing.
I didn't say SE copied D&D or any other type of RPG. I stated that the idea is in many other RPGs. As is using norse mythology for example.

[Amador]

It's not about being a fan boy. It's about playing a Final Fantasy SQE Game, and the job you choose because you enjoy it. Not to play a Druid from WoW, a Monk from D&D, or a Priest from EverQuest. You do it for SQE Jobs, System, Terminology, Story Quality, Etc.

Your argument is: The generic idea of MNK, in another RPG is pretty much the same. Have you seen the idea of MNK in Diablo III? Could you compare that to FF Monks? No.

My argument is: SQE doesn't need to draw from generic RPG's ideas for their classes. They have their own.

[Ihnako]

Back to topic...
I'd like the idea of an occasional jump while attacking. It could work like Zanshin in case you miss the mob and/or in case you parry an attack.
For the second one it would be good that DRG would get an active parry job trait since all you can do is evade, parry or get hit.

[Thonuwan]

I personally don't think that DRG should get a native quadra attack. It doesn't with my vision of what the job is. More jumps are something which I could agree.

[noodles355]

Your argument is: The generic idea of MNK, in another RPG is pretty much the same. Have you seen the idea of MNK in Diablo III? Could you compare that to FF Monks? No. Yeah no shit. I said it's an idea used in many other RPGs. Not in every one.
I don't disagree with your argument relating to other things SE has used, however the idea of Monk being the fastest attacker or having the most attacks per round is not an original SE idea. It's not an argument against anything on topic. It was just a random fact as an aside.

[Ophannus]

It's not in DRG's playstyle to be a better DD than WAR/MNK. Thats all those jobs do, theyre designed for massive damage and semi-tanking. DRG being an advance job has more of a complicated niche than basic jobs which are usually pretty straight forward. That's why Quadra Attack is more MNKish if anything. Since SE made Jump/HighJump merits count towards the reduction of Spirit/Soul, we can rest assured they will not unlink their shared recasts. While there's a chance they can undo this, SE RARELY ever reneges on a fix except in extreme cases. The next best thing would be to give Jump and High Jump some kind of attribute to make us think twice about using only Soul and Spirit Jump. Spirit and Soul are mainly for DDing due to the crit and TP gain. I'd say add something defensive to Jump and High Jump so that in a dire situation they could be used instead of Spirit/Soul. Perhaps an Aftermath of -PDT or a flash/stun type effect. There's really not much else I could think of to make the old Jumps more useful. Perhaps they could keep the Jumps linked but if Spirit Jump is used, Jump/Spirit's recast will be 90 seconds, but if Jump is used, the recast will be 45 seconds. This could be akin to how Accomplice and Collaborator share the same timer but the recast is different depending on which ability is used. Unlinking the recast would make DRG overpowered especially for those DRGs with OAT lance or Mythic.