Artifact Armor 4 idea [Archive] - Page 2

Eldelphia

08-15-2011, 08:04 PM

Please for the love of Altana, make it a static boost. I'm a crafter and a synergist and I want no more to do with random stats...

Give us static stats so we can then choose which pieces to upgrade and keeping them storable is key. I have 9 jobs at 90 and am working on a 10th for fun.

I'm just not really sure if relic is worth upgrading. It's all so situational now. I realise that multiple routes to improved stats is no bad thing but honestly EAF has pushed most pieces back into storage or the occasional macro slot.

Put it this way, I have two +1 relic pieces completed and the ability to +1 4 more. Those -1 pieces have sat in storage for years... because they're not really worth bothering with. I might upgrade my Cleric's mitts... but I have the Cleric's Pantaloons +1 and the Sorceror's Tonban +1 done and that's it. I could be 4/5 on +1 Cleric's gear and I love dynamis but its not worth the cost because I won't use it...

The problem with upgrading the relic, even from +2 is that the base pieces are in many cases completely obsolete and if you follow the same lines as you have in the past, won't be improved by boosting existing or even close stats to a point where they will compete with something else. Let me run though the WHM set as an example...

Cleric's Cap +1
DEF: 25 MP +25 VIT +5 Enmity -5
Enhances "Resist Silence" effect
Lv. 75 WHM

If you +2'd this you would see a rise in defence, some more MP to say 30-35, perhaps some more VIT, you'd expect another -1 or -1 ENM and possibly the addition of another stat, for example MND.You have room to add another Enhancing ability but honestly the EAF +2 is godly, why would you ever use a Cleric's Cap +2? It would have to be very specific or some godly set bonus because no one is going to keep this on otherwise.

Cleric's Briault +1
DEF: 43 MP +29 Enmity -3
Adds "Refresh" effect
Enhances potency of "Regen"
Lv. 75 WHM

With this, its a macro and idling piece at best. More MP isn't going to help, more -ENM is nice but you only cast regen in it. You could add another tic of refresh to it but not many people have this piece right now so CoP dynamis will have to be slightly more accessible (I'm assuming its going the same way as the others) to make this an alternative to the hundred other free/cheap pieces which you can idle in. You could improve the potency of regen I guess and add something else.

Cleric's Mitts +1
DEF: 17 HP +20 MP +20
Enfeebling magic skill +15
Enmity -4
Enhances potency of
"Banish" vs. undead
Lv. 75 WHM

More HP/MP - meh. Add more bloody skill! Or Macc. You could add MND to these and make them godly. EAF+2 hands are situational, as are these. Another -ENM maybe but again they're a macro piece.

Cleric's Pantaloons +1
DEF: 32 MP +17
Healing magic skill +15 Enmity -3
Elemental resistance spells +22
Lv. 75 WHM

The best piece of the set and buffing these would be useful. More MP I don't care about. Healing magic skill would be awesome, if it did anything useful... more -ENM - meh. Elemental resistance spells bonus - {Yes Please}. Hell add Enhancing magic skill or MDB to them...

Cleric's Duckbills +1
DEF: 16 MP +18 MND +6
Enhancing magic skill +10
Enmity -2

I was confused as to why SE made a pair of shoes (EAF+1 and 2) which so directly overwhelm these in the first place. Unless you give them something unique they will never get used...

So unless you're considering going in a new direction with relic, I don't think it's worth +2ing it.

MarkovChain

08-15-2011, 08:07 PM

First it's +10 DMG (+1 weapon rank as proved by myself) not +20, secondly you don't use perfect counter when you DD so with march or no march makes absolutely NO sense.

Camosan

08-15-2011, 08:34 PM

Static, yes please. inb4 make it static for Salvage gear too please!

Leonlionheart

08-15-2011, 08:46 PM

Static, yes please. inb4 make it static for Salvage gear too please!

I will be very, very mad if they don't make salvage upgrades similar to relic weapon/mythic weapon upgrades through ToM.
I.E. new stats per 5 levels, up to 99. Salvage is one of the events that I actually have fun in, besides Abyssea. Sure the drop rates make it a grind, but it's really enjoyable most of the time (until, I'm sure, that 489589'th run where Usu body 35 still doesn't drop)

Sakura317

08-15-2011, 08:47 PM

Dear Kamate,

I'm Japanese, and usually read and write in Japanese forum.
Off course, there is same vote in Japanese forum.
However, I found that there is a serious different exists in these forums.

Mocchi, the Japanese forum's community rep, said that this sentence as follows before question:
"For first, please leave about Synergy aside for this vote, because we'll consider whether we adopt Synergy for enhancing relic gears or not, based on the result of this vote and feedbacks."

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12411 #130

In English forum, Kamate said that "Please let us know if you prefer static stats or random stats when adding your stats via synergy."

In a word, In Japanese forum, users are asked "Which do you like [Static Stats] or [Randam Stats]?", on the other hand in English forum users are asked "Which do you like [Static stats via Sinergy] or [Randam Stats via Sinergy]?".

It is great difference.

I think most of user prefer [Static Status without Sinergy], and some of user [Randam Stats without Sinergy], and very few of user like [Static Stats with Sinergy] and [Randam Stats with Sinergy].

Kamate, could you kindly confirm this difference, and if you can, correct the question and ask again?
I guess it is better for English speaking user that [leave about Synergy aside] question.

And if Kamate's question is right... SE tried to {Trick Attack} to Japaneser users to introduce Synergy by force ><.

Leonlionheart

08-15-2011, 08:57 PM

First it's +10 DMG (+1 weapon rank as proved by myself) not +20, secondly you don't use perfect counter when you DD so with march or no march makes absolutely NO sense.

If you're not tanking when you DD, you suck. Seriously, suck. The only way you shouldn't be taking hits is outside Abyssea where PLD NEEDS to keep hate to insure success, or when you are playing with a WAR using Retaliation and taking the hits w/ a good WHM to back him up.

About march: 1 round would take 4.1 seconds, so when using that 2 second Perfect Counter, you're actually getting more attacks out of your time than you would with auto attack, without march or haste.

With march, haste, and samba, though, you are doing 1 round per 1.16 seconds, and is the situation where Perfect Counter would actually lower your DPS.

Frost

08-15-2011, 09:00 PM

Dear Kamate,

I'm Japanese, and usually read and write in Japanese forum.
Off course, there is same vote in Japanese forum.
However, I found that there is a serious different exists in these forums.

Mocchi, the Japanese forum's community rep, said that this sentence as follows before question:
"For first, please leave about Synergy aside for this vote, because we'll consider whether we adopt Synergy for enhancing reric gears or not, based on the result of this vote and feedbacks."

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12411 #130

In English forum, Kamate said that "Please let us know if you prefer static stats or random stats when adding your stats via synergy."

In a word, In Japanese forum, users are asked "Which do you like [Static Stats] or [Randam Stats]?", on the other hand in English forum users are asked "Which do you like [Static stats via Sinergy] or [Randam Stats via Sinergy]?".

It is great difference.

I think most of user prefer [Static Status without Sinergy], and some of user [Randam Stats without Sinergy], and very few of user like [Static Stats with Sinergy] and [Randam Stats with Sinergy].

Kamate, could you kindly confirm this difference, and if you can, correct the question and ask again?
I guess it is better for English speaking user that [leave about Synergy aside] question.

And if Kamate's question is right... SE tried to {Trick Attack} to Japaneser users to introduce Synergy by force ><.

This is glorious!
Thank you very much Sakura317, your appearance is welcomed with open arms, and appreciated.

I'm very glad there's people like you that are able to read both forums and keep things level and equal.

Thank you.

MarkovChain

08-15-2011, 09:02 PM

Can you enlighten us on the relation between PC usage and double march, please, I'm intersted, and after that I will teach you how to make a macro.

Leonlionheart

08-15-2011, 09:04 PM

Can you enlighten us on the relation between PC usage and double march, please, I'm intersted, and after that I will teach you how to make a macro.

Edited the post.

MarkovChain

08-15-2011, 09:06 PM

outside Abyssea where PLD NEEDS to keep hate to insure success
what

About march: 1 round would take 4.1 seconds, so when using that 2 second Perfect Counter, you're actually getting more attacks out of your time than you would with auto attack, without march or haste.

No you are ridiculous because haste and march don't affect the frequency of PC usage.

With march, haste, and samba, though, you are doing 1 round per 1.16 seconds, and is the situation where Perfect Counter would actually lower your DPS.

See above.

Leonlionheart

08-15-2011, 09:08 PM

whaaat the fuuuuu**?

Who's talking about the rate of PC usage? I'm talking about the ability delay, as you were when you said it lowers your DPS because it takes 2 seconds away from auto-attacks.

the hell does the recast on Perfect Counter have to do with ANYTHING?

Gildrein

08-15-2011, 09:12 PM

Leonlionheart

08-15-2011, 09:14 PM

Static, Static, Static.

Yarly

08-15-2011, 09:16 PM

static PLEASE

MarkovChain

08-15-2011, 09:17 PM

You said that PC hurts your DPs only with high marches which makes no sense because haste and marches don't influence the frequency of WS usage. If you don't understand such trivial consideration you should try to discuss maths with me. PC always hurts the DPS regardless of haste. It's not the same as considering the effect of, say, boost on WS usage because haste does influence WS frequency. With low haste it's worth boosting with high haste it's not. Here for PC it's always not worth it (for DD purpose). You are mixing everything. You use perfect counter only when you are willing to sacrifice damage for survivability, nothing else.

Camosan

08-15-2011, 09:23 PM

Ohai! We're voting again!

STATIC

P.s. Can we at least TRY and stay on topic? Go make a thread where someone cares about MNK/PC - not that noone cares just not really the place...

Shinshi

08-15-2011, 09:23 PM

Static ^.^

Since most people do not have synergy high enough to sufficiently HQ augments to get the good ones, we would have to rely to much on friends with that craft leveled, and propably annoy them to no end. Especially if you consider about 1-3 capped synergists per LS at max, depending on the size of the LS.
Storage also is a real plus!

Frost

08-15-2011, 09:25 PM

Guys, seriously, can you please stop playing his game? You can scream "The Sky Is Blue!" in MarcoChan's face all you want, and he will refute it, even by saying nonsense like: "The sky's not blue, it's blue.". You're stroking off his ego when you play these games, he's been doing it for YEARS. Just stop responding, and he goes away. Even if you "win" you're going to "lose" with this guy.

Let it go.

He'll make stuff up, refuse to post facts or data, and drive you up the wall in the meantime. All the while, derailing threads until eventually people get goaded into saying something out of frustration that gets themselves banned.

If you don't respond to his nonsense, he'll just sit there spastically hitting F5 waiting for something that will never come. That's how YOU "win".

Karbuncle

08-15-2011, 09:25 PM

Random! Why? I'm different, and it not like it matters at this point >_> Static is going to be the conclusion.

I try to be very nice when saying this but i deeply doubt they will make Relic+2 Equipment better/on-par with empyrean +2 armors, especially if its a Static upgrade. It will likely all be town gear or an occasional macro piece.

Which i guess isn't so bad... Most armor is anyway.

Sakura317

08-15-2011, 09:25 PM

Frost

08-15-2011, 09:27 PM

And...

Still would prefer Static Stats please since you're "revoting".

(thank you)

Economizer

08-15-2011, 09:32 PM

My old post still stands, but static.

-

Certain sets will need more then a mere upgrade of current stats. For example:

Let me run though the WHM set as an example...

So unless you're considering going in a new direction with relic, I don't think it's worth +2ing it.

White Mage relic was pretty terrible. Making the Artifact set +2 would be more reliable if SE is just going with boosting pre-existing stats.

-

I was actually coming in here to note that there was a post on the JP forums about this, but I can only assume that it was about this, since I have to rely on machine translation anyways. It sucks to not be bilingual.

Coops

08-15-2011, 09:39 PM

Forget AF and do salvage gear instead!

DebbieGibson

08-15-2011, 09:45 PM

random please. I like the anticipation and the chance of getting lucky over just a boring grind like magian.

Pyrobunny

08-15-2011, 09:56 PM

Forget AF and do salvage gear instead!

most af and some relic is shit if ur going to do anything make the existing af1 worth using.... u know like war, sam, thf af
come on who uses thf af1?.

for the most part i think upgrading salvage gear is better idea

Washburn

08-15-2011, 10:08 PM

STATIC! STATIC! STATIC! STATIC! STATIC! STATIC!

Economizer

08-15-2011, 10:12 PM

most af and some relic is shit if ur going to do anything make the existing af1 worth using.... u know like war, sam, thf af
come on who uses thf af1?.

for the most part i think upgrading salvage gear is better idea

Can't SE do both? Although, that said, I think that Artifact/Relic gear is better suited towards being given Static stats, while Salvage gear would be more suited towards the system for Sky gear.

Kari

08-15-2011, 10:12 PM

Static.

SE, there is a reason Magian Trials were successful.
Magians may have some extremely repetitive and boring objectives, but you know what you're working to obtain in the end, and you know you will have it if you complete said boring objectives.

Either way, we have more than enough randomness. Most of the "random" augments and such you've given us, mean that 95% of the time you will come out with Earth Resist +2, and 5% of the time you'll get what you wanted, except at +1 instead of +5.
The community seems to want more static stats, with good reason.
However, you have to also make the stats WORTHWHILE, or nobody will ever do the augments.

Bulrogg

08-15-2011, 10:14 PM

Pyrobunny

08-15-2011, 10:16 PM

i'll have to say static cuz crafting blows.
i pay to kill.

not to make cupcakes or nice dresses.

i leave the crafting to all of you who can stand it and i salute you all... but its just not for me

i gotz da urge to do da killinz (>*,,,,*)>}====>

xiozen

08-15-2011, 10:21 PM

Static please! Synergy no-thanks! I personally don't mind more magian trials to enhance Relic armor to +2... please ensure, if it going to be static, that the stats rival Empyrean armor especially at end-game. This would allow players flexibility--something SE has always prided itself on--allowing players various options in equipment so that everyone is not a CLONE!

I know I've seen so many players wearing the same armor... so introducing more RELIC gear (+2 versions) with stats that rival the empyrean armor would be very welcome. I, personally, don't mind more magian trials for this purpose... bottom line: Effort = Results

Synergy has never been kind to me... a rather casual player; so unless the entire synergy system is planned on being overhauled to be a little more user friendly--please make more magian trials for this new +2 system... there's some +1 relic pieces I have in storage I'd love to use but the empyrean counterparts significantly trump them--making them useless.

Thanks for the opportunity to voice, SE Devs!

starfxcker000

08-15-2011, 10:22 PM

Static. Augments are way lame.

xiozen

08-15-2011, 10:22 PM

Question: If this is going to be relic +2 does it mean CoP dynamis will be getting an adjustment? I only ask because that is where you get the material for relic +1 and I am assuming we will have to convert relic to +1 before we can +2 it.

I don't think the system needs to change... this would require more CoP Dynamis runs--nothing to change... I personally enjoy the CoP dynamis runs more than the city/icelands personally.

Kuraudo

08-15-2011, 10:23 PM

Static please! I hate randomness!

Bigboy

08-15-2011, 10:26 PM

Static Please!

Retsujo

08-15-2011, 10:29 PM

Static, please!

Also, voicing my opinion of Bulrogg's question of Dreamland Dynamis - if you make any changes, just make -1 gear drop more frequently. I don't want that Dynamis to change.

Horadrim

08-15-2011, 10:29 PM

I have to admit, after a week and a half away, I didn't expect to come back and find this topic with almost 300 replies...

Camate is like a rock star.

Dew

08-15-2011, 11:06 PM

Static.

If you look at the road map there's a dynamis revamp part2 (aka Dreamlands). They will probably change it like rest to 1 day wait and free spawning mobs to make -1 pieces more abundant. Which gives them more reason to release +2s for relic with the update.

Items to +2 the relic will probably drop in the dreamlands zones giving them more reason to do this.

Zaeon

08-15-2011, 11:18 PM

Static stats please

Xellith

08-15-2011, 11:23 PM

Korpg

08-15-2011, 11:31 PM

Staticwhitetext

Karbuncle

08-15-2011, 11:32 PM

I consider the synergy thing like the magic sweets in harry potter that can be any flavor you can think of.

Chocolate
Vanilla
Custard
Ear Wax
Dog Poo

Id prefer to know what im getting before I put it in my mouth..

STATIC ONLY PLEASE.

With Static, all you get is Vanilla. Nothing else. You might want Chocolate one day, too bad, All you get is Vanilla. You want Strawberry? all you get is Vanilla. Mocha? Vanilla only sorry.

i'm not trying to change your mind, nor insult you for your opinion! Just saying static has its flaws too! Weigh the good and the bad!

With Random, Its bigger risk = bigger reward, not always good, but chance of greatness, I.E Dog poo, or Double Chocolate Brownies, or Strawberry shortcake, or Oreo-Ice-Cream-Cake.

with Static is, "you get what you're given", Vanilla onry

maybe I'm the adventurous type, But i'd take the roulette style of bitting into poo and spitting it out (Getting bad augment, trying again), or Bitting into it and getting Oreo-IceCream-cake (awesomness).

(My only problem is not being able to store it, but if you look they said they're also considering ways to address that if its random!)

Edit: Also yes they're asking for our opinion but also HAVE SOME DISCUSSION D:!

Xslayrx

08-15-2011, 11:35 PM

Static please.

Aarahs

08-15-2011, 11:48 PM

Static, and is there a reason why the OP idea is unfeasible? If limit to 4 bonuses, create a job trait only accessible in gear X.

Bersty

08-15-2011, 11:56 PM

Has the development team not learned anything from any of the other "augment" systems they have tried to introduce in the past? the Fields of Valor augment system? the Evolith system?

Much of the player base has never truly "loved" many of the augment systems used in the past (or at least up until now). The AF3 +1 and +2 system was actually one of the first genuinely thought out and useful processes for upgrading gear that we've seen as a player base to-date. Hater's will always want to hate, the facts are simple, they are currently much easier to obtain then previous times (when they were initially introduced); however, I think that was the intent of THAT "augment" program.

Flash forward to now, you ask us to consider one of two options.

Option A: Random Augments.
Based on what I've seen in the past, and what I have highlighted thus far. Absolutely not. Never. Not a chance in the world. I don't want to seem completely rash; and I mean this in the most respectful way, but up until now, I haven't seen any previously used "Random Augment" system that would ever make me consider wasting my time to do this.

Option B: Static Upgrades
In the description of this option, what your intents were, were very vague. It seemed like in either of these options, the development team is looking for a means to create something for people to waste their time doing. As I said before, I mean it in the most respectful way, but this option, although it seems more appealing, probably has much of the same effects as the previously mentioned one.

Conclusion:
Given the options we were presented, I put my two cents in B; however, I do this quite reluctantly in hopes that the following message be passed on to the development team:

Learn from your mistakes, and mistakes is what they were, of previously used augmenting systems. The AF3 program; although seemingly easy today, was very challenging at its inception, and I beg to say was the only successful augment system to-date worth sinking time into. Please don't waste your time creating something for us to waste our time doing, which the majority of the other augment systems to-date do; and unfortunately, continue to do.

~The Cap'n

Jeffil

08-15-2011, 11:58 PM

Wanna put my vote in for static upgrades, and why not do them through magian trials? I think overall this system is players' favorite method.

Ophannus

08-16-2011, 12:07 AM

Not even vanilla ice cream, more like gruel flavored ice cream.

Unctgtg

08-16-2011, 12:24 AM

Static stats

BorkBorkBork

08-16-2011, 12:29 AM

Static
Please no more synergy

Kavik

08-16-2011, 12:48 AM

STATIC.

I still hate 'random' things, regardless of the means they are acquired by.

wish12oz

08-16-2011, 12:50 AM

STATIC

Random augments are really annoying (~.~;)

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 12:51 AM

STATIC

Random augments are really annoying (~.~;)

et tu, wish?!

---

Quick poll/questionnaire.

First> Is anyone going to bother doing this if it turns out static upgrades are crap?

Second> Will you do it if they're just very situational armor?

Third> If you answered no to the above, Why do you want Static, when a good chance it will be useless? instead of random Where some of us might actually work to get the best results from it? Benefiting from the system.

Just curious, Some people seem quite happy with their Full Perle/aurore, they've made it clear even static upgrades will be difficult to obtain, Will anyone voting static even bother with the time/effort to get the +1 version, to upgrade to +2, if its only a little better than AH alternatives? How about if its just situational and not even better than Empyrean+2?

CrystalWeapon

08-16-2011, 12:55 AM

Static >[ ^)>

georgcantor316

08-16-2011, 12:55 AM

Razushu

08-16-2011, 12:59 AM

Static for the love of God, this game has far too much random in it as is, even getting the gear requires a random drop.

TimeMage

08-16-2011, 01:01 AM

Static, no matter the method (Well, unless is a total nightmare with a crappy reward).

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 01:06 AM

Static, no matter the method (Well, unless is a total nightmare with a crappy reward).

It will be you know >_>!

Vold

08-16-2011, 01:08 AM

Random.

Most of the "random" augments and such you've given us, mean that 95% of the time you will come out with Earth Resist +2, and 5% of the time you'll get what you wanted, except at +1 instead of +5.
The community seems to want more static stats, with good reason.
However, you have to also make the stats WORTHWHILE, or nobody will ever do the augments.
And this is why we're doomed to crappy static stats. When I was doing augs for gear I got good stats 95% of the time with pure NQ crap 5% of the time. Of course my Synergy isn't low level. It's capped, like it should be. But the point is that people will buy scraps or tatters for 30,000 to 100,000 gil no problem because you are pretty much guaranteed to have something good come out of it with capped Synergy skill.

Let's not hide from the truth here. Everyone that says static is just saying 'I don't want to level Synergy and have no idea how it works to make an educated vote' or 'I leveled Synergy and did the Synergy augments but because I never obtained the very best possible aug ever conceived to mankind, regardless that I got some pretty good ones in it's place, I vote static'

So like, instead of getting random with good augments with that 'very best aug ever conceived to mankind' as being a possibility to obtain, we're going to get static that will have the good augs as the best static augs and 'very best aug ever conceived to mankind' won't even exist. That's basically what it will boil down to. But everyone can keep on trying to vote STATIC AND throw your 2 cents in about how it should be great augs to boot. SE might cave in, when bugards fly.

Coldbrand

08-16-2011, 01:10 AM

Greetings fellow adventurers!

Regarding the post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12420-Artifact-Armor-4-idea?p=168162&viewfull=1#post168162) Camate has made on Aug. 12th, there happens to be a mistake.

Using the synergy system to enhance artifact armors is not a final conclusion.
We are planning to decide whether we should use the synergy system or not based on the discussion held on the forums.
So for now, please send us your voices whether you prefer static stats or random stats by leaving synergy system out of the topic.

Since the general condition of the discussion was off the track, please resend your ideas if there happens to be a change along with this correction.

We apologize for the confusion this mistake may have brought.
Again, static. And not synergy.

Please please please consider putting 20% haste on the drg relic set (already has 2%) with 15 or so STP. Please can we TP in a cohesive single set of armor for once in our lives? I'd kill to TP in Wyrm Armor with capped haste and a 5 hit setup. We don't need goofy crap like wyvern hp while healing, are you serious? Tell the devs it's literally a waste of their man hours if they don't do a setup like this because otherwise all this will amount to is another one or two pieces here or there to flash in for a split second during a macro.

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 01:10 AM

I'm sure if we ask them hard enough those great Static Augments (CHR+9 Assassin's armlets right bro) will be worthwhile?

If you think Static augments will be anything short of +1/+2 to current stats, and maybe a new stat thrown in, You're smoking some good good stuff. I think some of it might become situational but most of it will remain garbage!

It'll be fun for a few weeks though, Getting the situational stuff :O, Like RDM+2 hat, can't go wrong... SMN+2 Hands, another winner.

THF+2 Hands might get TH+2? Maybe THF+2 Feet might be useful if it got some haste...

Wonder if they'll get Set bonuses too?

Godofgods

08-16-2011, 01:11 AM

no synergy

Andrien

08-16-2011, 01:15 AM

well this is poop. I tossed away most of my AF1 and AF2 that was considered useless to me. recycling old skins isn't my thing but, if this happens then I'd choose no to synergy.

Malamasala

08-16-2011, 01:15 AM

This is a good example of majority rule, minority rights. The fact that those of us wanting random get to voice it is us expressing our right to object the masses, the 'right' to the minority with the majority 'rule' coming in the form that the results from this will most likely be static. Anywho, I understand their reasons but I still find them to be shortsighted. SE do the masses a bone and give us random, they may not thank you now but in time they will come to understand why it's better. You know at one point it was the masses who understood the earth was the center of the universe while Galileo sat in a jail cell. I guess I would play Copernicus in this scenario. Wow that went a bit wayward. >.> /fail

Well, at the end of the day, it is more about which job you play than anything else that matters. SE adding static or random melee stats for WAR, SAM, MNK, etc. will be a success regardless.

If you are playing SMN, BRD, WHM, BLM and such, you are more likely to run into the craptastic failure of bonuses that has been common since the dawn of time.

Honestly, choose augment is the only solution to make everyone happy. But yea, why would SE want the users to be happy when they can have angry threads all over their forum?

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 01:16 AM

well this is poop. I tossed away most of my AF1 and AF2 that was considered useless to me. recycling old skins isn't my thing but, if this happens then I'd choose no to synergy.

Most Relic is pretty easy to come by these days, Dynamis update made is much easier for you to casually obtain relic. However i wouldn't start collecting it just yet :)

Well, at the end of the day, it is more about which job you play than anything else that matters. SE adding static or random melee stats for WAR, SAM, MNK, etc. will be a success regardless.

Quite the opposite I think! All those Relic armors for those jobs are mostly junk garbage and crap that would need complete overhauls to be useful. The chances of that with static upgrades are close to 0, i think melee sets would be the hardest to upgrade.

Seen WAR Relic lately lol? its got more enmity than PLD armor.

If you are playing SMN, BRD, WHM, BLM and such, you are more likely to run into the craptastic failure of bonuses that has been common since the dawn of time.

I doubt that a bit... Especially when all of those jobs Empyrean sets so closely and accurately boost those jobs, I would think they would take the same stance with the Relic+2 Augment upgrades.

Like how Adaman Feet with Synergy augments got Call Beast and Pet haste, you would likely see Pet:??? Bonuses to SMN Gear, and Cure potency/casting time to WHM, or something like that. They're a little smarter than we give them credit!

Honestly, choose augment is the only solution to make everyone happy. But yea, why would SE want the users to be happy when they can have angry threads all over their forum?

Choosing Augments would be nice, i agree heartily, but ultimately, like all things "static", even chosen we'd likely have a list of "Meh".

Edit: We're all just choosing what we think will be the lesser of two evils! So in a way, WE'RE NOT SO DIFFERENT YOU SEE.

Pharaun

08-16-2011, 01:17 AM

Static augments please, random augments can gtfo ->
And if it's random synergy augments it can doubly gtfo ->

Tinuviel

08-16-2011, 01:19 AM

I am hoping that the 95-99 final form magians split paths a bit for new augments, rather than just continue along existing paths. For example, there wouldn't be any "AF4", but your AF3+2 piece might have 2-3 different upgrades it could take... either using AF1, AF2, or other JSE to complete the trial. The result would be a new tier of AF3+2 armors that have additional augments. This focus on customization would be more interesting than some 'ultimate-AF4' armor set... god I hope SE does something like this (using old content gear for new magian upgrades) rather than using voidwatch drops for new magian ugprades... I dont like voidwatch all that much :/

ex. I use my thf af2 hands to add TH+1 onto my AF3+2 hands. etc.

Alhanelem

08-16-2011, 01:42 AM

Static stats. Moderate time requirement Not too short (poor stats) or too long (unobtainable)

Juilan

08-16-2011, 01:46 AM

static non synergy c.c

SpankWustler

08-16-2011, 01:47 AM

If you think Static augments will be anything short of +1/+2 to current stats, and maybe a new stat thrown in, You're smoking some good good stuff. I think some of it might become situational but most of it will remain garbage!

This is why I'm hoping for intelligently added reliable augments, actually. Most of the gear is so awful at a basic level that a piece is only good for a singular purpose, if anything.

Static augments or abjuration-style augments could be based around that singular purpose. I guess I don't care about static or random so much as I just really don't want the system to pump out a lot of all-around pieces that are actually good for nothing.

My pessimism is stronger than your pessimism!

MarkovChain

08-16-2011, 01:53 AM

This is a good example of majority rule, minority rights. The fact that those of us wanting random get to voice it is us expressing our right to object the masses, the 'right' to the minority with the majority 'rule' coming in the form that the results from this will most likely be static. Anywho, I understand their reasons but I still find them to be shortsighted. SE do the masses a bone and give us random, they may not thank you now but in time they will come to understand why it's better. You know at one point it was the masses who understood the earth was the center of the universe while Galileo sat in a jail cell. I guess I would play Copernicus in this scenario. Wow that went a bit wayward. >.> /fail

The gear will suck either way so it has no consequences. Notice that they did not actually asked if players like synergy augments or if players want to keep on with voidwatch. Too risky for game balance.

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 01:56 AM

This is why I'm hoping for intelligently added reliable augments, actually. Most of the gear is so awful at a basic level that a piece is only good for a singular purpose, if anything.

Static augments or abjuration-style augments could be based around that singular purpose. I guess I don't care about static or random so much as I just really don't want the system to pump out a lot of all-around pieces that are actually good for nothing.

My pessimism is stronger than your pessimism!

I doubt it! I'm just holding it back.

I think all the armor is going to turn out to be complete garbage because of being "Static", and everyone crying for static will immediately regret it, Also as such, no one will get the armor, and it will be useless content on the level of chocobo races or Evolith system thanks to people wanting to "take the easy route" and pick static useless gear, thus ruining it for everyone who has the perseverance to stick with a system that will reward them in due time.

There, I didn't hold back that time. Happy now SPANKY? my pessimism wins.

Still, I wish we could have a little more info, Maybe some "Example" Stats of how two armors would be Static or Random? Like for instance... Would... Assassin's Armlets be....

Static:
DEF:??
DEX+7 CHR+7 Enmity+7
"Treasure Hunter"+2
Haste +2%

Random:
CHR+5 Enmity+w/e
"Treasure Hunter"+1
---
"Accuracy" +3~7
"Attack" +3~7
"Treasure Hunter" +1-2
"Gilfinder" +1~2
"Haste" +2~4

Something like that? Basic examples of the level of difference between the power of Static or Random? Will they have Set bonuses? etc!

Help me out Rep peoples :)!

Manque

08-16-2011, 02:03 AM

I also feel we need to see examples to make an educated decision.

Let's see an example please dev's!

Also, if they are considering doing random augments via methods other than synergy, I thought I would remind people of those mini-bc's for those job specific weapons in the past (grauberg etc.). Fey weapons, weren't they? I remember doing those fights for a staff on smn and it was quite laborious although I would find a system like that a lot more tolerable than synergy augments. I liked those battles because it involved a fight and something stimulating. If they will be random I vote for a fight system for augments.

SpankWustler

08-16-2011, 02:05 AM

That's the spirit, bro. Better out than in! Also a valid point, since that's very possible.

I'd love to see some examples, too. Right now we're all just guessing based on how the various augment systems have gone in the past, and those have been all over the place. Abjuration augments being really nice, and Field of Valor augments being nothing I can adequately describe with words permitted on this forum.

CrystalWeapon

08-16-2011, 02:06 AM

Just curious will the level requirement for the armor be higher than 75 after the upgrade? If not and it is done static, why not give the armor a scaling effect like the CoP rings. Start them with feasible stats for a lv 75 peice and have them increase up to lv 90~99 however high you want it to cap at.

Just my two cents.

Inafking

08-16-2011, 02:10 AM

People don't want random because currently the gear with random augments suck. If Square was willing to demonstrate that the garbage augments would at least be useful, I think you'd have more people asking for random. But as it stands now, static is more popular because it looks to be more useful. The real question is the dev team willing to give us decent random augments? If the past is any indicator, the answer to that question is no.

ThaiChi

08-16-2011, 02:11 AM

My re-vote stays as "Static"

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 02:18 AM

People don't want random because currently the gear with random augments suck

Actually my good sir i respectfully disagree.

The Augments on the following:

Hct. Leggings +1? Best WS legs for Chant/Evisc/Etc.
Hct Hands+1 Best WS hands for quite a few jobs
Hct Feet+1 Also best WS feet for a few jobs.

Shura Kabuto = Best WS head for the jobs listed IIRC
Shura Togi+1 actually has some nice stats, nothing wtf amazing though.
Shura Legs/+1 Have best Stats for WS for a few jobs too (with good Augments)

Armada/Adaman Hauberk is the best TP piece for the jobs listed (I believe, WAR at least)
Adaman hands are decent TP hands (Haste+4 possible)
Adaman Feet are best Feet legs for Call Beast and General BST-Pet Melee (Pet:Haste+3% possible)

I think the Zenith Set has some good Situational Mage pieces.

Kirin's pole possible SMN magic +12 Augment, Best Elemental Siphon piece.
Byakko's Haidate is best Blade:Hi WS piece to name one.

And thats just all i can think off of the top of my head, I'm sure theres plenty im forgetting.

And on top of all of those Augments above, a lot of them are relatively painless to get with some time, Each Synergy takes about ~30 seconds or so to perfectly align, if not less (Each are really really simple, like Byakko's is 35 Lightning or something, at worst 5-6 "Feeds"). Just requires Capped synergy, which isn't even a huge problem cause you can always have someone else do it for you.

Inafking

08-16-2011, 02:21 AM

The odds of getting good agments instead of weak elemental resistance on random gear is so low that it's not worth even trying. That is my point.

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 02:23 AM

The odds of getting those agments instead of weak elemental resistance is so low that it's not worth even trying. That is my point.

Now you're talking out of your A** and I know it.

When you do those Augments if you HQ1/2/3 You have a nearly 100% chance to get at least 1 of the quality Augments. HQ3 pretty much guarantees you'll get an augment worthy to keep.

I've Actually got ~70 Synergy and have Augmented a bunch of Items, and I've only seen "Crappy" Augments a handfull of times, and that was on an unlucky NQ synth. NQ Synths are pretty much "You fail try again" though, and the HQ rate on those Recipes is very high if you have Capped Synergy skill.

Oh, and i forgot to add Genbu's Shield to that list.

Inafking

08-16-2011, 02:25 AM

I'm not talking about synergy. Can't use it because the items for it are unatainable.

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 02:26 AM

I'm not talking about synergy. Can't use it because the items for it are unatainable.

... What? The only way to Augment Sky gear is Via synergy. You're confusing me now... Sorry If i'm misunderstanding you here.

Thala

08-16-2011, 02:28 AM

I have never liked random stats. I like approaching a goal and being able to plan it properly. Random stats can take a day or take a year. I have spent so much time trying to get the Facio body of my dreams since it was first introduced, but to no avail. I also dislike synergy. I have spent years trying to get WW to 99.7, and I'm still trying for that last .3, and that's just crystal -> recipe -> go. I have absolutely no desire to invest in synergy which is a substantially more involved process. I will pretty much have no interest in any upgrades that involve synergy.

Reposting. Synergy was just turning the knife, so I stand by my stance in favor of statics.

Elexia

08-16-2011, 02:28 AM

random please. I like the anticipation and the chance of getting lucky over just a boring grind like magian.

Lots more have AF/Relic than Salvage gear, so I'm sure they'll want to do something the majority can actually utilize versus the specific minority who actually has Salvage gear. They already mentioned something relating Salvage gear coming at some point.

Inafking

08-16-2011, 02:30 AM

please send us your voices whether you prefer static stats or random stats by leaving synergy system out of the topic.

Synergy isn't random augments the devs are talking about.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Fay_Crozier

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 02:37 AM

Those weren't actually that bad either, You'd probably be better off using Fields of Valor as an example, those Augments wer'e truly atrocious.

I think i went 1/4 on a Perp-3 BPdelay- Fay Crozier though, I still use that same staff today LOL.

Still, I was basing this off the assumption they wouldn't backpedal the exceptionally better and well founded Synergy Augment system (To be more clear, The "Uniqueness" and "Less Random" aspect of Augmented) for something that was developed by the Old dev team.

However, Examples would be nice.

Inafking

08-16-2011, 02:41 AM

wolfshadow

08-16-2011, 02:43 AM

Staticccccccccc D:

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 02:46 AM

Well I spent a lot of time with that staff and never got any perpetuation down, let alone good perpetuation down. Then there is all the abussea augmented gear I've tried. All junk except for the chest items other people take before I can get to it.

Oh, God, You reminded me of the Awful Trophy system... That i can understand being the reason people want static.

Truthfully, if it was like Synergy Augments, where you knew basically what you were getting, and you knew there was a good chance to get it, it wouldn't be a problem.

If it was like Trophy Exchange Augments, F**k that noise. im 0/150+ on Haste+ feet for the PUP shoes.

Xellith

08-16-2011, 02:56 AM

Just let us get gear from einherjar that can have augments added to it based on what we purchase with ichor. Problem solved.

But nooooo SE is gonna make it retarded to do.

imo though Ampouls > purchase augments on new gear. (not augmenting existing gear)

Ryx

08-16-2011, 02:59 AM

Greetings fellow adventurers!

Regarding the post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12420-Artifact-Armor-4-idea?p=168162&viewfull=1#post168162) Camate has made on Aug. 12th, there happens to be a mistake.

Using the synergy system to enhance artifact armors is not a final conclusion.
We are planning to decide whether we should use the synergy system or not based on the discussion held on the forums.
So for now, please send us your voices whether you prefer static stats or random stats by leaving synergy system out of the topic.

Since the general condition of the discussion was off the track, please resend your ideas if there happens to be a change along with this correction.

We apologize for the confusion this mistake may have brought.

I don't think it really got too far off the track myself, since static is a system that works better through magian trials than synergy. So just take all the overwhelming majority votes for "Static" and you can safely assume most (if not all) of those people do NOT want it to go through synergy.

And going through magian would also open up the door for multiple paths to upgrade an item, letting us choose from sets of augments by means of implementing multiple trials per piece.

I will vote again for static Augments and no thank you to synergy.

That's my two gil on the matter.

SpankWustler

08-16-2011, 02:59 AM

I think i went 1/4 on a Perp-3 BPdelay- Fay Crozier though, I still use that same staff today LOL.

My best friend had similar luck with her staff. For jobs without amazing weapons at the time, or jobs like Bard that got unique augments, those were pretty good. While never a great system, they were far from the worst that augmentation has wrought upon Vana'Diel.

For examples of time and effort spent to defile and devalue gear, look no further than the Evolith and Fields of Valor systems. Which seem to have been phased out due to being pretty pointless, now that I think about it.

More recent random-augment systems have either had very little cost to the player (Dominion Trophies, stuff from gold chests), or have been less than totally random (Sky/Abjuration augments).

Of course, there's always the chance that they will decide to rock out old-school and allow us to inflict Water Resistance +1~6 upon our Relic armor roughly 92% of the time.

Camosan

08-16-2011, 03:04 AM

Just want to say how much I love everyone, conditional love that is. Condition being you've voted: STATIC.

Just thought I'd share!

Ryce

08-16-2011, 03:18 AM

Static. Definitely static.

Mizuharu

08-16-2011, 03:24 AM

Static. For the love of God, static.

For the love of Altana, static.

I can't tell you how many tatters/scraps I've gone through trying to augment just one pair of Byakko Haidate, let alone the rest of my gear (which I can't even store now or remove augments to store even with a Flasque Of Revertant.

Fearforever

08-16-2011, 03:27 AM

Static, {Yes please}

Soundwave

08-16-2011, 03:28 AM

We are planning to decide whether we should use the synergy system or not based on the discussion held on the forums.
So for now.

*shurg*

Static please no random bs, as I said before the only thing /random in this command should be the command..../random.

Capn

08-16-2011, 03:32 AM

Static for sure,

Unless you guys were thinking of a system like A Crystaline Prophecy (and the other 2 expansions) with a set list of choosable augments to place on the gear itself...

That would be pretty nice...

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 03:33 AM

Mightyg

08-16-2011, 03:37 AM

Not only do I want it static, I want to be able to pick the exact augment I want, and stick it on the gear piece I want. None of this job specific crap.

CrystalWeapon

08-16-2011, 03:39 AM

Bah!

Wheres your peoples adventuring spirits?! Does not one love feeling the rush and excitement of wondering what your augment will be? Wheres the fun in working to a goal of static boringness :( no surprise! no spice! no mystery! No wonder! (inb4 noreward!)

I admit if it was as Extreme as FoV, or Dominion Trophies, it would suck donkey dong, but if it was tame like Synergy-Sky stuff... it could have some potential!

But yah, I think we can stop voting now, 98% have voted Static lol

It's not a matter of not being adventurous my reason for wanting static is from the fact that I'm a horder. I have more jobs leveled than I know what to do with and if I can use something I will want it. If they weren't storable I'd be SoL as far as inventory space would go.

Merton9999

08-16-2011, 03:44 AM

Static please. I hate synergy and crafting in general. Boring in the extreme when I can go kill stuff.

The most important thing to me is that AF+2 look different than AF2, unlike the +1. I'd skip the whole upgrade concept completely if it means having to see people running around in the same pieces they wore for years at 75. It's already happening. I'm back in Jeuno looking at that hideous Dalmatica all over the place. It makes me want to puke.

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 03:44 AM

It's not a matter of not being adventurous my reason for wanting static is from the fact that I'm a horder. I have more jobs leveled than I know what to do with and if I can use something I will want it. If they weren't storable I'd be SoL as far as inventory space would go.

Yah, Thats a negative for me too...

SE did say if it was random, they were/would look into ways to store them/dbox them/etc.

Razushu

08-16-2011, 03:51 AM

Bah!

Wheres your peoples adventuring spirits?! Does not one love feeling the rush and excitement of wondering what your augment will be? Wheres the fun in working to a goal of static boringness :( no surprise! no spice! no mystery! No wonder! (inb4 noreward!)

I admit if it was as Extreme as FoV, or Dominion Trophies, it would suck donkey dong, but if it was tame like Synergy-Sky stuff... it could have some potential!

But yah, I think we can stop voting now, 98% have voted Static lol

I use my adventuring spirit to solo NMs lol, I don't need soul crushing repetition for random augments lol

Horadrim

08-16-2011, 03:52 AM

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 03:52 AM

Soul crushing is fun though!

Like watching a Rampart spit out 100 Birds instead of your Roc!

or Watching a Rampart spit out 100 Chigoes instead of a spider!

FUN! ..........................Yah okay i lied :|

CrystalWeapon

08-16-2011, 03:57 AM

I'm pretty sure if they gave examples of the two and the differences in power were really drastic there would be more votes for random.

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 03:58 AM

I'm pretty sure if they gave examples of the two and the differences in power were really drastic there would be more votes for random.

I concur .

Greatguardian

08-16-2011, 03:58 AM

I'm pretty sure if they gave examples of the two and the differences in power were really drastic there would be more votes for random.

I'm pretty sure if they did this, I would stop caring because I would not pursue either augment anyways.

Economizer

08-16-2011, 04:09 AM

Like I said before, part of the lure of static boosts is that you'd be able to know in advance exactly what you are going for, and roughly when you will get it.

I'll get enough adventure augmenting my Genbu's Shield to last me a few months, thank you very much. That said, I wish they'd add better non-PLD shields for WHM, our choices at the moment are pretty much Muse Tariqah, or Genbu's. Shoot, the Bloodbead Ecu is the only shield I know of that they added since 75 that White Mage can even wear.

Sorry about going off topic a tiny bit. The other lure I see with static boosts is being able to visually identify jobs, and roughly what their abilities are. Random augments are better suited to Sky and Salvage gear.

Razushu

08-16-2011, 04:11 AM

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 04:12 AM

Eh, I just feel like we're dooming a system to useless mediocrity by playing the "I want it easy" route, when it has the potential to be exceptional.

However, In the end i guess it won't matter, if the gear sucks i just won't get it! Either way, I hope they do it right, no matter what path thy chose.

But somehow, after spelling out to us "Static will suck", I don't expect much from Static upgrades, but if theres 1-2 situational pieces per set, I consider it an accomplishment.

Razushu

08-16-2011, 04:14 AM

Eh, I just feel like we're dooming a system to useless mediocrity by playing the "I want it easy" route, when it has the potential to be exceptional.

However, In the end i guess it won't matter, if the gear sucks i just won't get it! Either way, I hope they do it right, no matter what path thy chose.

Just because it's static doesn't mean it will suck, TotM is a great example of static augments that are very powerful.

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 04:17 AM

Just because it's static doesn't mean it will suck, TotM is a great example of static augments that are very powerful.

Well, In their original post here (Devs) they said static gear would be weaker (well, they said "With static, you won't get the Augment of your dreams) than Random gear, and Random would have the chance of "The augment of your dreams".

The thing with toTM is that gear was for the most part, designed for the impending 99 cap, Relic is level 70/75 armor, It would take drastic overhauls to turn the +1 garbage into +2 Niceness.

I won't hold my breath, Its an assumption, but like i said i feel we might be digging the grave for the system to be mediocre/unused.

While i'd love to be surprised/shocked by it becoming useable armor (like how the sky/abjuration augments made a lot of the gear really really amazing), I just don't see it being too useful if its "static". Some of the Situational armor will remain situational, while i think the other crap will stay crap.

Like for instance, I don't see them making Warrior's Lorica anything short of suck, same can be said for pretty much the Entire Warrior's Set, or Lootmonger's relic

Arcon

08-16-2011, 04:19 AM

Static. Adventuring spirit =/= gambling.

I quite liked the magic candy example. It can be anything. Only 500 of the 501 flavors are different varieties of dog poo.

Phafi

08-16-2011, 04:19 AM

static changes

Razushu

08-16-2011, 04:22 AM

Well, In their original post here (Devs) they said static gear would be weaker (well, they said "With static, you won't get the Augment of your dreams) than Random gear, and Random would have the chance of "The augment of your dreams".

The thing with toTM is that gear was for the most part, designed for the impending 99 cap, Relic is level 70/75 armor, It would take drastic overhauls to turn the +1 garbage into +2 Niceness.

I won't hold my breath, Its an assumption, but like i said i feel we might be digging the grave for the system to be mediocre/unused.

I just re-read the comment, and all I can say is why would the max possible augment on a static gotta be < than a random augment. The only reason I can think of is to artifically get us to spend longer playing the game lol.

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 04:23 AM

Static. Adventuring spirit =/= gambling.

Poppycock my good sir!

Going to farm Empyrean+1 Seals? Gamblin! you have a 1/4 chance it will drop the seal you want! Same can be said for Gold Casket farming for Shoes or Augmented items!

A lot of things in this game are a gamble, but still fun/adventurous! I think if done right it could be potentially spectacular. It just would need to be done correctly! Almost every NM is a Gamble when you're going for drops too, same can be said with BCNMs, go for Kraken Club lately? I have :O!

I think if the system was done correctly, again, it could be fun... Its just hard to know when we have so very little information. Use your imaginations!

I just re-read the comment, and all I can say is why would the max possible augment on a static gotta be < than a random augment. The only reason I can think of is to artifically get us to spend longer playing the game lol.

I think their intent was "With Random, we can add the possibility for more powerful augments, and greater varities, but with Static, We have to chose set numbers, and with that there won't be as many possibilities, or potential".

So with Random, Theres the chance of greatness, with Static, its almost certainly going to be Mediocre, or at the very least less impressive. but to some people, mediocre is okay so long as its easy to obtain? I guess?

Examples of static vs 'Dream' augments would be nice before telling us to vote on it.

Yes please :(

Neisan_Quetz

08-16-2011, 04:25 AM

Examples of static vs 'Dream' augments would be nice before telling us to vote on it.

Razushu

08-16-2011, 04:26 AM

Poppycock my good sir!

Going to farm Empyrean+1 Seals? Gamblin! you have a 1/4 chance it will drop the seal you want! Same can be said for Gold Casket farming for Shoes or Augmented items!

A lot of things in this game are a gamble, but still fun/adventurous! I think if done right it could be potentially spectacular. It just would need to be done correctly! Almost every NM is a Gamble when you're going for drops too, same can be said with BCNMs, go for Kraken Club lately? I have :O!

I think if the system was done correctly, again, it could be fun... Its just hard to know when we have so very little information. Use your imaginations!

I think their intent was "With Random, we can add the possibility for more powerful augments, and greater varities, but with Static, We have to chose set numbers, and with that there won't be as many possibilities, or potential".

So with Random, Theres the chance of greatness, with Static, its almost certainly going to be Mediocre, or at the very least less impressive. but to some people, mediocre is okay so long as its easy to obtain? I guess?

I don't mind it hard to obtain, I just want to know what I'm working towards.

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 04:30 AM

I don't mind it hard to obtain, I just want to know what I'm working towards.

Well, As an example....

Byakko's Haidate augments are as follows:

"Store TP" +1~5
Critical Hit Damage 1%- 4%
VIT 2- 6
MND 1- 6
AGI 2- 6

These are examples of the "HQ" Augments, Meaning you have i think its 100% Chance of 2/3 of these on HQ2/3. The system is i think

NQ - Usually crap
HQ1 - 1-2 of Listed HQ Augments
HQ2 - 2-3 of Listed HQ Augments
HQ3 - 3 of Listed HQ augments

Each one also has a "Random Pool" you could get an Augment from. The thing is, for the most part, when synthesizing a Byakko's Haidate, You know what you're going to get to an extent, and your goal (i.E Critical Hit damage +4%, and AGI+~6 as a Goal, You have a good chance to get this).

So if they improved on this system (narrowing range of augments, etc, making it less "random) I think it would have potential.

Greatguardian

08-16-2011, 04:35 AM

Oh come now Krabnuckle, you're going soft.

We both know there is a fundamental difference between immutable randomness and influenced randomness. Farming Af3+1 seals is influenced randomness, you can improve your odds by bringing TH and triggering Grellow weakness. This is only comparable to Sky augments, where you can improve your odds by leveling Synergy and HQ2-HQ3'ing the synthesis.

Kraken club BCNM is immutable randomness, comparable to FoV augments. In a nutshell, a steaming pile of crap.

Frankly, it's easier for them to screw up a Random system. Plain and simple. It could be good, but it could be a steaming pile of dog poo. Considering the current ratio of good to steaming pile of dog poo in the game's Random augment systems, I don't feel comfortable taking that bet.

What is it that you seem to expect from Random augments? I know you're a well geared Thief. Would you really have any need for Augmented Thief Relic, even if the random system gave them wonky and powerful augments? I sincerely hope that they don't intend to have decade-old gear suddenly outclass the Empyrean armor that they just released, so let's assume we're not talking about AF3+2 level stats.

Personally, I still use 3/5 MNK AF2 as macro/situational pieces. I use a similar number of COR, WHM, RDM, and PLD relic (3, 3, 4, 4) as macro pieces as well. The worst case scenario for Static augments is that I will still use the same pieces I use now, and still won't use the same pieces I don't use now. Static simply allows more fine-tuned and targeted upgrades to the pieces that I already use.

What good would a random Attack+15 Accuracy +15 MP+20 augment do for me on my Valor Surcoat when I would still only wear it during Cover?

Razushu

08-16-2011, 04:38 AM

Well, As an example....

Byakko's Haidate augments are as follows:

"Store TP" +1~5
Critical Hit Damage 1%- 4%
VIT 2- 6
MND 1- 6
AGI 2- 6

These are examples of the "HQ" Augments, Meaning you have i think its 100% Chance of 2/3 of these on HQ2/3. The system is i think

NQ - Usually crap
HQ1 - 1-2 of Listed HQ Augments
HQ2 - 2-3 of Listed HQ Augments
HQ3 - 3 of Listed HQ augments

Each one also has a "Random Pool" you could get an Augment from. The thing is, for the most part, when synthesizing a Byakko's Haidate, You know what you're going to get to an extent, and your goal (i.E Critical Hit damage +4%, and AGI+~6 as a Goal, You have a good chance to get this).

So if they improved on this system (narrowing range of augments, etc, making it less "random) I think it would have potential.

Thats the other thing, I'm absolutely against using Synergy for this system. I don't fancy leveling a craft to 100, just for 2 or 3 pieces of gear I migh want to augment. This may have something to do with the fact it took me as much time taking cooking from 60-65 as it did to get Synergy from 0-2.

If the list of Augments was narrow enough and was on a similar system to the fay weapons I think we all could get behind a random system. But as it stands SE has put a bad taste in most peoples mouths when dealing with /random augment systems.

SpankWustler

08-16-2011, 04:49 AM

Personally, I still use 3/5 MNK AF2 as macro/situational pieces. I use a similar number of COR, WHM, RDM, and PLD relic (3, 3, 4, 4) as macro pieces as well. The worst case scenario for Static augments is that I will still use the same pieces I use now, and still won't use the same pieces I don't use now. Static simply allows more fine-tuned and targeted upgrades to the pieces that I already use.

What good would a random Attack+15 Accuracy +15 MP+20 augment do for me on my Valor Surcoat when I would still only wear it during Cover?

This is my thinking as well.

I'd rather have small, precise upgrades to pieces I use for literally one thing than have to work my man-boobs off to try to make Empyrean Underwear -1. I can't see myself ever not wearing Cleric's Briault +1 for casting Regen spells, and I can't see myself using it for anything else without tremendous augments.

Even if the upgrade is just +5 Conserve MP or 2% Fastcast or something, well, that's still a better piece for casting Regen! Things like +6~12% Cure Potency, -2~10 Enmity, and +6~12 MND would be huge gains. Huge gains which still leave me with a piece no better, or even worse, than current ideal options for curing.

I'm more concerned with them getting the right upgrades than a huge quantity of upgrades. This seems more likely with static upgrades.

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 04:49 AM

Kraken club BCNM is immutable randomness, comparable to FoV augments. In a nutshell, a steaming pile of crap.

Meh, He said gambling, I used 2 examples of gambling in FFXI, one easily understandable, and the other a blatant extreme.

Frankly, it's easier for them to screw up a Random system. Plain and simple. It could be good, but it could be a steaming pile of dog poo. Considering the current ratio of good to steaming pile of dog poo in the game's Random augment systems, I don't feel comfortable taking that bet.

If they improved on the Synergy system, I feel quite comfortable taking the bet (doesn't even need to involve Synergy). I would gladly 80% chance of poo over a 100% chance of poo.

What is it that you seem to expect from Random augments?

Quite honestly? Situation armor. WS pieces, Good macro armor for Pet jobs. The biggest potential is in the pet jobs. I don't expect shit for LTM, and sorry if that seems harsh. In SE's eyes LTM is a dead job :\.

I know you're a well geared Lootmonger. Would you really have any need for Augmented Lootmonger Relic, even if the random system gave them wonky and powerful augments? I sincerely hope that they don't intend to have decade-old gear suddenly outclass the Empyrean armor that they just released, so let's assume we're not talking about AF3+2 level stats.

I doubt they'd outdate empyrean+2, But as you can see with Synergy gear, theres the potential for a nugget of gold in the ocean of once useless armor. Priceless un-replaceable gear, Examples like Genbu's shield and those Adaman feet for BST i keep falling back on are pieces i hope would come from Random system.

Personally, I still use 3/5 MNK AF2 as macro/situational pieces. I use a similar number of COR, WHM, RDM, and PLD relic (3, 3, 4, 4) as macro pieces as well. The worst case scenario for Static augments is that I will still use the same pieces I use now, and still won't use the same pieces I don't use now. Static simply allows more fine-tuned and targeted upgrades to the pieces that I already use.

My problem is, i think "fine-tuned" is just a fancy way of saying "mediocre crap" in this paragraph Guard... Its just going to be vanilla upgrades. Whats the point of wasting development time on worthless junk no one will use outside of what we're already using it for just fine without the wasted dev time?

f we're going to be fed out-dated Equipment being upgraded to level 90, I'd at least like the chance for it to be useful. With static upgrades, i simply do not see it having that fair shot at being useful.

What good would a random Attack+15 Accuracy +15 MP+20 augment do for me on my Valor Surcoat when I would still only wear it during Cover?

Valor Surcoat? what if the Augments would grant something like.. "Cover +5" or "Cover +10", and "Converts Damage Dealt to MP +5" or something similar that enhances whats its generally used for, a Cover macro? Where as "Static" you'd likely see "Cover +2" or "Cover +4", and maybe "Dmg dealt to MP +2".

What I'm saying is, Random would have the potential for some Augments we wouldn't expect. Did anyone expect Call Beast Delay-5 and Pet:Haste+3 from Adaman Solerets? i'm willing to be No, Its that kind of thinking-outside-the-box that would make me genuinely excited and curious as to what they would have in store for Random augments.

I admit the system would need some fine tunning im saying the Potential for greatness is there.

As for your answer to "What would i expect for Lootmonger Relic"

The body has Increases rate of Critical hits. Imagine if you will It suddenly got the following

Base Stats:
AGI+4 Enmity+3
Increases Rate of Critical hits.

HQ Augments:
Critical hit Damage +3~6
DEX+5~6
AGI+5~6
Triple Attack +1~2

At this point, Critical hit Damage +6, Dex+7 Triple attack +3 augment, you just created the Best Evisceration body in the game, and arguable great for Rudra's when not Assassin's Charged.

Assassin's Poulaines?
Base Stats:
CHR+6
Triple Attack +1
Enmity +3

HQ Augments:
DEX+3~6
Accuracy +3~6
Attack +3~6
Haste +2~3
Evasion +3~6

With any combination of the above and Haste+3, You just created the best LTM TP feet in the game.

Theres potential. Where as with static, in their own words, we won't get those "Augment of our dreams". yes, None of the above is set in stone, You asked me what i could expect, based on the sky/Abjur Augments, I think the above are within reason.

I eagerly anticipate your response :)

Supersun

08-16-2011, 04:51 AM

So if they improved on this system (narrowing range of augments, etc, making it less "random) I think it would have potential.

Wouldn't the extreme of this essentially just be making the augments static?

---

Anyway, static if the augments are good.

I'd just prefer they not treat this black and white where static augments have to be weaker and implement a system where you could maybe power up an augment by trading additional items past the requirement ect...

You'd still have your time sink, just one where everyone has to put in the same amount of effort then praying to the RNG gods.

Damane

08-16-2011, 05:10 AM

The Synergy augments on Sky gear were very well done. I would love to sea such Synergy recipes again for Relic Armor.

hiko

08-16-2011, 05:28 AM

the issue is we have no clue what the difference potential between static and random

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 05:34 AM

An issue i hope they address :(

Economizer

08-16-2011, 05:46 AM

Kraken club BCNM is immutable randomness, comparable to FoV augments. In a nutshell, a steaming pile of crap.

I remember that SE said something along the lines of this:

Due to the extreme popularity of the kraken club and trouble arising as a result of a large number of players attempting to acquire the item, the monster that previously dropped the club (Lord of Onzozo) will do so no longer. A new method of obtaining the item is currently under consideration and will be implemented shortly. There are no plans on changing the drop rate of the item in question. However, the development team would like to grant players more opportunities to obtain it.

Too bad that they put it in a BCNM that drops just about nothing else for gear. Everything in this game has gotten cheaper and cheaper except consumables, certain scrolls, and the Kraken Club. It is even cheaper to get a Relic these days, but not a Kraken Club. Not that it should be super easy to get, but when things known for being expensive cost less then a scroll that would get tossed or NPC'd but this club not only didn't go down in price even a single gil, but went up, it feels like perhaps the method for obtaining it is a little harsh.

MarkovChain

08-16-2011, 05:53 AM

Btw they didn't exclude static+synergy, so start leveling synergy to 80 naow and feel your pain against "a goal that you know when you will reach it". When you reach 80 come cry how it was (not) fun and you'll beg random.

Darkvalkyr

08-16-2011, 06:17 AM

Karb, it's nice to see someone advocating Random like it can be the greatest thing ever, but when your argument is that 'Static will be useless and weak!' it's no difference to the people saying 'Random will be useless and weak!'.

The thing is, arguing that Static will be useless and weak has a greater chance of biting you in the back because at the end of the day the stats will be guaranteed.

One thing I want SE to do first and foremost are:
-Example of Static Augment
-Example of WEAKEST Random Augment
-Example of STRONGEST Random Augment
-Example of HOW to get the upgrade

We were all fooled into getting some level 40 equip with STR+5 DEX+5 when FoV augments were introduced. Some people got lucky, others spent eons and never got it.

Synergy came - it isn't a bad system in its own right, but it feels highly unaccessible and inconvenient to many people. I don't mind SE using augments to enhance our relic, but I don't prefer it. Evoliths were something that had potential but with most of the game spending their time in abyssea it's tossed in the wayside. (Psst, level cap to enter abyssea to 75, please) That, and how useless evolith augments were, paired with how hard it is to socket ANYTHING, paired with how it relied on synergy...far too inconvenient.

With Sky, I realize you can make great equipment, and if you have high skill in synergy (not a lot of people want to do it) you can make something really good unless you're unlucky. The fact of the matter is, people are redoing old content to hopefully be able to get those tatters and augment sky gear - but this isn't really convenient for anyone. Nothing's guaranteed, especially if synergy skill is low, and to ask them to level synergy to have a good chance is really out of the way to do it.

My current vote rests with Static augments. Yes, I'd much rather get an extra +3 to all the stats on my relic for my effort instead of 1~6.

Valor Surcoat? what if the Augments would grant something like.. "Cover +5" or "Cover +10", and "Converts Damage Dealt to MP +5" or something similar that enhances whats its generally used for, a Cover macro? Where as "Static" you'd likely see "Cover +2" or "Cover +4", and maybe "Dmg dealt to MP +2".

Except, having those static stats make that surcoat infinitely better than before. Whichever system they implement, we're upgrading our relic, and that's that. This example is a fine example how Static CAN work, especially if we get both of those stats.

What I'm saying is, Random would have the potential for some Augments we wouldn't expect. Did anyone expect Call Beast Delay-5 and Pet:Haste+3 from Adaman Solerets? i'm willing to be No, Its that kind of thinking-outside-the-box that would make me genuinely excited and curious as to what they would have in store for Random augments.

Except relics are job specific, and we expect job-specific stats. If SE narrows the pool down to only stuff a BLU would want - which is about every single stat in the game, if I end up getting a hodgepodge of HMP+3, STR+3, CHR+5, I'd have a steaming pile of useless. Thinking about job-specific bonuses, if my Mirage Keffiyeh gets a simple upgrade of increasing the Blue Magic Skill bonus on it, it already makes it a fair bit more useful. Make it +10 from +5, and I already have something that may substitute my tathlum on my ammo slot but I'm not entirely sure on that.

People can go through countless Trophies for Mederi Brogues with Blue Magic Skill +2 and STR+6, and never get it, because otherwise it's pretty sub-standard.

The fact that these relics are made to be job-specific, means that any augment will be an upgrade and may improve swap-in potential if not replace some pieces.

On another note, though - how we acquire our upgrades is another matter. I'm for quests more than anything else. The game needs more interesting content, more storyline. I'm sick of Magian Trials oversimplifying the stories. I was expecting a lot from the Fellowship limit break quests + Aht Urhgan access, but when I saw that it involved Magian...I was heartbroken.

I want BCNMs, Cutscenes -> Reward. Not repeat things -> hope for reward. Want me to be adventurous? I played FFXI for the stories, BCNMs and cutscenes. The hard battles that are actually worth the effort because I'm rewarded with a brilliant conclusion to a questline. Not some sparkly dust in my face and I get the best armor in the game.

Tl;dr:

Static until given the information:
-How to get it
-Lowest end random and highest end random possible augments
-static possible augments

As for how to get:
-Quests preferred
-Not Magian
-Not entirely keen on Synergy

Ezrin

08-16-2011, 06:28 AM

STATIC! Please.

Leonlionheart

08-16-2011, 06:30 AM

Honestly Magian upgrades can be very general. Some are "Kill x 100 times" some are "Turn in x item." It's very customizable I think, and anything can be done with the system.

Though quest lines do sound better.

SNK

08-16-2011, 07:01 AM

Static. Please. And by god please if you do that make them not suck so damn hard. The fact that the relic armor is almost all garbage outside of 3 pieces is so sad it's not even funny.

WAR Body for example. What was SE thinking with those stats at the time?!?

RNG Body... So terrible....

The AF3 sets is what the relic sets should have been around to at the 1st place.

Hell the AF+1 pieces from Limbus were better then the most of the relic pieces at the time. :(

Malamasala

08-16-2011, 07:05 AM

I think all upgrade items should come from fishing, chocobo racing, pankration, hot and cold. It would be a blast seeing everyone start doing those things just because suddenly there was a reward.

SpankWustler

08-16-2011, 07:30 AM

As for your answer to "What would i expect for Lootmonger Relic"

The body has Increases rate of Critical hits. Imagine if you will It suddenly got the following

Base Stats:
AGI+4 Enmity+3
Increases Rate of Critical hits.

HQ Augments:
Critical hit Damage +3~6
DEX+5~6
AGI+5~6
Triple Attack +1~2

At this point, Critical hit Damage +6, Dex+7 Triple attack +3 augment, you just created the Best Evisceration body in the game, and arguable great for Rudra's when not Assassin's Charged.

Assassin's Poulaines?
Base Stats:
CHR+6
Triple Attack +1
Enmity +3

HQ Augments:
DEX+3~6
Accuracy +3~6
Attack +3~6
Haste +2~3
Evasion +3~6

With any combination of the above and Haste+3, You just created the best LTM TP feet in the game.

Theres potential. Where as with static, in their own words, we won't get those "Augment of our dreams". yes, None of the above is set in stone, You asked me what i could expect, based on the sky/Abjur Augments, I think the above are within reason.

I definitely have a better understanding of why you'd advocate random augments, now. Those would be really nice pieces, and the augments aren't so far off from what was on Sky and Abjuration gear.

I think the main difference between what you're thinking and what I'm thinking is the kind of pieces we're imagining as start and end points. You're thinking of making a junk piece like Assassin's Vest into something good. An admirable dream.

I'm a lot less hopeful for what this system could do. I'd be satisfied with the pieces I macro in for specific things becoming better for those specific things. Here's the kind of stuff I'd hope for with static augments (augments in italics):

Cleric's Briault +1
DEF: 43 MP +29 Enmity -3
Adds "Refresh" effect
Enhances potency of "Regen"
Increases "Regen" effect duration (5 seconds)
Conserve MP +5

Commodore Gants +1
DEF: 15 HP +15 AGI +3
Ranged Accuracy +5
Enhances "Snapshot" effect
Ranged Attack +10

Mirage Keffiyeh +1
DEF: 25 HP +15 VIT +4
Blue Magic skill +5
Increases Breath Damage
STR +4 DEX +4
Magic Accuracy +5

And so on. Just enough to bring some pieces that were once decent back into use, or make pieces used for one thing better at that one thing.

Of course, I'm sure the reality of it will disappoint both of us.

Assassin's Vest +1
DEF: 46 HP +22 AGI +5 Enmity +5
Increases rate of critical hits
CHR +2
Light Resistance +6

Cleric's Briault +1
DEF: 43 MP +29 Enmity -3
Adds "Refresh" effect
Enhances potency of "Regen"
AGI +2
Wind Resistance +6

Atomic_Skull

08-16-2011, 07:32 AM

If the list of Augments was narrow enough and was on a similar system to the fay weapons I think we all could get behind a random system.

Still wouldn't like it, sorry.

Atomic_Skull

08-16-2011, 07:35 AM

The Synergy augments on Sky gear were very well done. I would love to sea such Synergy recipes again for Relic Armor.

You can't possibly be serious with that. You have to be trolling.

Atomic_Skull

08-16-2011, 07:39 AM

I think all upgrade items should come from fishing, chocobo racing, pankration, hot and cold. It would be a blast seeing everyone start doing those things just because suddenly there was a reward.
Except that nobody would for the same reason nobody does synergy augments.

Vold

08-16-2011, 07:44 AM

Here's an idea SE: DO BOTH STATIC AND RANDOM. Problem solved.

Seriously, do both.

I'm not stabbing at people's choice of static here. It's perfectly fine if people want static if only because it might mean it'd be non synergy related. I'm a huge ass fan of voting power. But I am meaning to stab, and it's at SE for not providing real examples for people to make educated choices and instead relying on emotion, which is what my problem here is. Of course nothing is set in stone yet and all that but it couldn't hurt to come up with an example of your most probable course of action. Obviously players are going to choose static over yet more random but if they had an example to look at, they might not be so quick to decide.

As things stand, "pick static or random" BAM! We chose static!

As things could be, "pick static or random. Example-THF hands: Static-HP +5 Dex +2 enm +1, Random- HP +11 Dex +5 TH +2" BA- um hmmmmm. Let me think about this I'll get back to you...can you provide an example for something I care about like RDM hat?

So yeah. If people knew in advance of HNM changes and were given the choice, they probably would have chose to stay with 24 hour pops. We strongly appreciate the chance to have a say on matters. Maybe it's a bit greedy to want even more, but I don't consider wanting more in this case all that bad. Just asking for examples with numbers. Stuff that people even when skim reading couldn't miss. You know, something more than seeing a vague "you won't get the aug of your dreams with static" warning that won't stick because emotion is clouding judgments.

But hey, you know. What we don't know, won't hurt us.

BTW my scrap and tatter sales says a lot of people do Synergy augments. Stop making crap up.

Sakura317

08-16-2011, 07:52 AM

Just because it's static doesn't mean it will suck, TotM is a great example of static augments that are very powerful.

Yes, you are right.
Developpers might think "Resist Water +10" after 100+ times Synergy is "Dreaming" stats!
User think "Dreaming" means "High Efficient", while Developpers just "Gambling with very low retruns".

Glamdring

08-16-2011, 07:59 AM

just my 2 cents, but any option that lets us store the gear. With most players having gear for more than 1 job at endgame levels it simply isn't viable to have to keep them all in your "active" inventory. It's even worse for those gear changing types that may have TP/MP/Haste/Eva/JA/WS sets on them at all times... not that I really care for them, but I personally hate having to mule several times just to change jobs.

Habiki

08-16-2011, 08:02 AM

Static would be awesome, I made an example of Blue Mage AF+1 to +2 using the same scaling I saw used for emperean +1 to +2 armor in my "AF+1 and Relic+1 armor plans?" thread. Having static stats gives players something to look foward to that can be amazing instead of a random chance, considering the difficulty in obtaining relic +1 I'd hate to get everything done +1 wise and be stuck with random stats on my +2 armor.

Static Please

Keinn

08-16-2011, 08:06 AM

Static please.

Caria

08-16-2011, 09:10 AM

How about a different route. Make the augments static by recipe, but provide multiple recipes with different amounts or different difficulties of ingredients to get to upgrade them further. Nothing is more frustrating than random numbers, but it would be well worth the effort to get better or customized stats on the armor. It would be nice to have a system to have a bit of customization.

Babygyrl

08-16-2011, 09:21 AM

Static.. NO synergy Please :(

Seriha

08-16-2011, 09:59 AM

Theres potential. Where as with static, in their own words, we won't get those "Augment of our dreams". yes, None of the above is set in stone, You asked me what i could expect, based on the sky/Abjur Augments, I think the above are within reason.

Like I tried to say earlier, if you have your customers demanding the "dream" option through static means in mass, perhaps it's time to shake the cobwebs out of their collective noggins and consider making it work. As is, I'm looking at augmented relic gear from two perspectives. If they retain their current level requirements, there's really not a whole lot that can be done to make them awesome. Indeed, this'll more or less be +1 or +2 to existing stats and maybe another bonus mod on top. However, if they were to bump the item level up to 90+, then you can start getting fancier or even "overpowered" in output. Regardless of either scenario, the effort required needs to match the end result, and not in Pchan's World of Over-exaggerated Ass.

Kimble

08-16-2011, 10:28 AM

synergy isnt even that hard to level. Not sure why people are all bent out of shape on it. And even if you dont want to do it, all you need is to know one person that has it capped and they can do synergy for you.

Byrth

08-16-2011, 10:35 AM

It takes about 10000 "Feed Earth Fewell"s to reach level 80 Synergy. I can understand why people wouldn't want to do it.

Kimble

08-16-2011, 10:39 AM

I know it takes time, not arguing that. Just don't think its right to say "leveling synergy is hard" is all.

Keep in mind, im not evening supporting random augments through synergy for AF/Relic.

Byrth

08-16-2011, 11:02 AM

Eh, 10000 fewell feeds is about 30,000 clicks. It's only two clicks once you get going (Feed Fewell -> Earth Fewell default), but the initial selection takes a lot more button presses than that and you get kicked out by an explosion once every 3-5 feeds. It's not skill based at all. You just have to sit down and spam a menu system for about 24 hours.

Kimble

08-16-2011, 11:10 AM

I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not XD.

Byrth

08-16-2011, 11:15 AM

I'm agreeing that it's just something you have to grind out if you want to be level 80 synergy, but it takes less planning and anticipation than any other craft. You get the ingredients for a stall and then navigate a menu 10000 times with 17 stacks of Earth Fewell in your inventory. Skilling up to 80 doesn't really make you any better at Synergy. The only thing it does is teach you how to feed Earth Fewell quickly. The whole system is worthless bot fodder.

So I can also understand people saying that synergy is a stupid system that they don't want to have to deal with.

Covenant

08-16-2011, 12:01 PM

I wondering when someone is gonna post a "hitler discussing random vs static" YouTube video?

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 12:29 PM

Sorry I went to sleep.

Karb, it's nice to see someone advocating Random like it can be the greatest thing ever, but when your argument is that 'Static will be useless and weak!' it's no difference to the people saying 'Random will be useless and weak!'.

never tried to hide the fact that I'm basing my point of view of baseless assumptions, same as you others and your want for static. we have no information, we're asked to vote for either, My mind came to synergy augments and the potential. Yours went to, well, IDK.

Either way, I knew all of this, in fact i said it before, here... And it was never "Random is the best thing ever" it was "Static will 99% likely be complete sh*t, and no one will do it, ruining the system for everyone, but with Random, it has the chance to be good, so at least some people will benefit from it".

The thing is, arguing that Static will be useless and weak has a greater chance of biting you in the back because at the end of the day the stats will be guaranteed.

I'm very sorry, If you read my posts you see on multiple ocassions i mention and admit Static is the reigning vote here. I do not expect to change it, i had hoped maybe others would see my point of view, but regardless of my intentions, all i wanted was discussion to see why other people wanted static.

Just as my idea of random is so foreign to you, all these people voting static are making me go "wut? Why?" Because very few are giving their reasons.

Though, for the record, Nothing will bite me in the back, i'm fully prepared for all contingencies from this. Either I'm right, or I'm wrong. I'll be fine either way, and to be frank, I'm hoping Static augments aren't complete crap, because I don't want another dead system in this game, on similar levels to Evolith.

With Sky, I realize you can make great equipment, and if you have high skill in synergy (not a lot of people want to do it) you can make something really good unless you're unlucky. The fact of the matter is, people are redoing old content to hopefully be able to get those tatters and augment sky gear - but this isn't really convenient for anyone. Nothing's guaranteed, especially if synergy skill is low, and to ask them to level synergy to have a good chance is really out of the way to do it.

This is no different than people farming Empyrean +1 items. Don't have friends? You have to ask someone who can help. same as "Don't have Synergy? have to ask someone who can help". Its an MMO, unless you're master of everything with 4 accounts, You're always going to have to ask someone for help. I do not see how Synergy would be the main problem, it doesn't seem like it goes outside of the norm of FFXI "Not good enough? Find help". (implying only that if you dont have the proper skills/tools to complete someone you seek friends/help)

However, Your opinion is yours and mine is mine, it is not my goal to change it. I understand where you're coming from however.

My current vote rests with Static augments. Yes, I'd much rather get an extra +3 to all the stats on my relic for my effort instead of 1~6.

This is your opinion, But i did address this. I said "Mediocre crap" in my last post. This is called settling. and my problem with this is, I'm baseless assuming most people voting for static won't even bother doing this content, I.E all this +2 gear will be directed toward players who won't even bother doing the content, so we'll have all this mediocre armor floating around that no one wants to get either because A) it was all junk, and not worth the time, or B) They're too lazy to bother (I.E: People asking for Static because they think it'll be easy), or C) Both.

The above does not necessarily describe you, or anyone who posted here. Even where specified, It is baseless assumptions. However that is my opinion on the matter. I just don't feel people will bother +2'ing the relic if it requires more effort than getting out of their mog house. Especially when i see people still walking around in full perle/aurore/teal and some level 71 weapon, when any upgrades for them are simple to come by.

Not that im implying anyone here does that, simply that a lot of FFXI players are lazy, and i just get sad when i think of the potential here wasted on people who likely won't bother doing it.

Especially since some people here actually think gettin -1 armor is so difficult it shouldn't even be required to +2 (when the drop rate on -1's is very high now, and Dynamis is so simple)

I'm simply worried of the outcome.

Except, having those static stats make that surcoat infinitely better than before. Whichever system they implement, we're upgrading our relic, and that's that. This example is a fine example how Static CAN work, especially if we get both of those stats.

My example was, static gives "Mediocre crap" possibilities, Which, in my exact example you quoted, the "Static" stats were far less impressive than the Random ones. Yes the idea was to make those stats improve on what Surcoat is used for. that was the idea.

My guess is, assuming from their original post, that the Static upgrades will likely remain vanila upgrades to the relic, while Random Augments will have the possibility for upgrades we didn't imagine, but also more variety of upgrades and possibilities. To be more Blunt, the Valor Surcoat+2 static could likely just see more DEX, More Enmity, and maybe 36% dmg to MP instead of 35% (33%?). Which is better than its current state, But it would pale in comparison to something Random like

VIT+10~15 (Cover Duration)
Cover +10 (duration)
Converts dmg. taken to MP+5 (helps "augment" bonus)

Then you have something that went from "Well, i guess its better than it is now" to "wtf its much better now wow".

Again, As i've said 1000 times, This is baseless assumptions, Same as you. we aren't different here.

Except relics are job specific, and we expect job-specific stats.

I expect not stupid stats, actually. When they pointed out "No berserk on WHM Gear" my thoughts were "We're saying that if its random, you wont see stupid sh*t on it" not that "all you get is job specific". Then again, Thats my simple interpretation of it.

If SE narrows the pool down to only stuff a BLU would want - which is about every single stat in the game, if I end up getting a hodgepodge of HMP+3, STR+3, CHR+5, I'd have a steaming pile of useless. Thinking about job-specific bonuses, if my Mirage Keffiyeh gets a simple upgrade of increasing the Blue Magic Skill bonus on it, it already makes it a fair bit more useful. Make it +10 from +5, and I already have something that may substitute my tathlum on my ammo slot but I'm not entirely sure on that.

Maybe I just have more faith in this company than you do? I like to not assume they're morons. They really earned my trust with Sky Synergy augments and how it made a lot of those armors very useful.

People can go through countless Trophies for Mederi Brogues with Blue Magic Skill +2 and STR+6, and never get it, because otherwise it's pretty sub-standard.

Yes, I've mentioned the quite f**k-awful Trophy exchange system, even gave my account of currently be 0/150+ on any sort of haste feet on the PUP armor.

I hate that system, but i also had faith we would not see a repeat like that. In a way, I sometimes assume the best of this company, but i do not believe i am always correct in my assumptions.

The fact that these relics are made to be job-specific, means that any augment will be an upgrade and may improve swap-in potential if not replace some pieces.

You're very optimistic that Static upgrades will be anything short of +1 to the current stats on it. I enjoy optimism. I really do not hope it bites you in the butt...

On another note, though - how we acquire our upgrades is another matter. I'm for quests more than anything else. The game needs more interesting content, more storyline. I'm sick of Magian Trials oversimplifying the stories. I was expecting a lot from the Fellowship limit break quests + Aht Urhgan access, but when I saw that it involved Magian...I was heartbroken.

I liked that they gave the NPC upgrade some shrivel of storyline, maybe the level 95/99 cap for NPCs will have a nice big battle?

Static until given the information:
-How to get it
-Lowest end random and highest end random possible augments
-static possible augments

As for how to get:
-Quests preferred
-Not Magian
-Not entirely keen on Synergy

Agreed, to the first part. Second part Kinda half and half.

Either way, In case it isnt clear. My intent is not to suddenly change everyones minds, I kinda hope people would see my point of view after this, but as it stands we're all just working in the dark, so to speak. We know nothing of the severity of differences... etc.

I was just really hoping, if it became Random, We might actually see some of the useless Relic become not useless, instead of what everyone seems to be settling and okay with, and thats "lol useless will still be useless but my 1 macro piece might get slightly better! STATIC PRZ!".

my hopes were, again, that if it was Random, maybe the useless armor would not be useless, with static, I just simply do not see that happening. With Static upgrades, I see it condemning useless relic, while making the already situational armor slightly better.

I did not want that wasted time/effort. I hope i am surprised, I hope they wow me with Static upgrades, its just i do not believe it will happen. I have faith in their Augments, but not faith in their static upgrades. yah, I'm fickle.

Raksha

08-16-2011, 12:39 PM

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 12:48 PM

What I'm reading in this thread is this:

75% Static, no synergy
25% Karbuncle still not changing anyone's minds.
100% pchan still being retarded.

And hey Karb, justifying a random system using the more or less static augments from sky/synergy gear is kind of silly. You know with very high certainty what kinds of augments you're going to get when you pick your tatters.

You even said it yourself many pages back that (paraphrasing) Random Pool augments = horror stories.

/sigh -.-

I admitted that some people who try for the absolute best from the random pool will encounter a lot of bad luck. The Random Pool augments are generally the worst to get.

But if someone wanted AGI+6 Crit Dmg+4 byakko's haidate, It wouldn't take an insane amount of time, as if they were going for STR+6... AGI+6 on byakkos is a HQ stat, where as STR+6 is from the "Random Pool" upgrades.

And I'm not trying to justify anything... I'm simply giving people my opinions and letting them know fully where I stand on why i believe what i do. I admit in that very post that i have faith in the company when it would come to random Augments, because of the amazing augments from Sky/Abjuration Armor, where as with static, my faith wavers.

Also, I will never change my mind, but ultimately my goal is not to change yours, its discussion and understanding~

Also, I don't believe my assumptions are any more absurd than "RANDOM WILL BE SUPER HARD AND IMPOSSIBLE AND NEVER REWARD ME I KNOW THIS 100% FACT, GIVE ME MEDIOCRITYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY" that some might be getting at. (not exactly you)

Raksha

08-16-2011, 12:58 PM

But if someone wanted AGI+6 Crit Dmg+4 byakko's haidate, It wouldn't take an insane amount of time, as if they were going for STR+6... AGI+6 on byakkos is a HQ stat, where as STR+6 is from the "Random Pool" upgrades.

So to paraphrase:

The less random, the better?

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 01:01 PM

So to paraphrase:

The less random, the better?

So long as its not a static 1 absolute single upgrade? Yup. I've admitted less random = better, which is why i much prefer Synergy Augments over say, Trophies, or FoV failure. I never once implied or asked for a 100% complete random bumf*ck wth upgrade system. Nor did i expect them to implement one.

If they released Static upgrades with split paths and multiple rewards/outcomes like Magian trials, I would not complain, it gives me a choice, and i can pick my poison, so to speak. however if its just 1 absolute static upgrade, Its where I'm turned off. 1 Absolute static no choice upgrade might condemn the pieces, where as multiple options/varieties might actually help the useless armor be less useless.

However i really feel like you're not even bothering to read or understand my post, and instead just look for something to pick apart and ignore everything else...

SpankWustler

08-16-2011, 01:05 PM

My guess is, assuming from their original post, that the Static upgrades will likely remain vanilla upgrades to the relic, while Random Augments will have the possibility for upgrades we didn't imagine, but also more variety of upgrades and possibilities. To be more Blunt, the Valor Surcoat+2 static could likely just see more DEX, More Enmity, and maybe 36% dmg to MP instead of 35% (33%?).

For me, this would be like some watching a movie in which some dude discovers the Statue of Liberty or the Eiffel Tower on an "alien" planet. It's certainly not the first time a plot has twisted like this, and I probably saw it coming, but it would still be a little depressing.

Also, it's kind of nuts that they didn't give any numerical examples. This basically just leaves the decision to guess-work and emotional reactions based on bad random augment systems used in the past.

It's like a circular room with the lights out. I'm running one way thinking I might reach the exit, Krabknuckle is running the other because it might be that way. Every fifteen minutes or so, we run into each other in a fashion that would make the Three Stooges proud.

Of course, it will turn out that there is no exit. Only Water Resistance +6.

Raksha

08-16-2011, 01:10 PM

However i really feel like you're not even bothering to read or understand my post, and instead just look for something to pick apart and ignore everything else...

I'll admit I skimmed the last ~8 pages that were posted today, but I think I got the gist (also I generally only respond to the parts I disagree with). Anyway I don't see much point in doing it the sky/synergy way because it's basically static but with "fuck you" random pool augments thrown in to drive people crazy.

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 01:14 PM

I'll admit I skimmed the last ~8 pages that were posted today, but I think I got the gist (also I generally only respond to the parts I disagree with). Anyway I don't see much point in doing it the sky/synergy way because it's basically static but with "fuck you" random pool augments thrown in to drive people crazy.

I agree, the system would need fine-tunning. But again, i think a better alternative would be Multiple Possible endings via Magian trials.

Static people will enjoy it, and people who would want random... while it wouldn't give them exactly what they want, they would have the illusion of choice, i could settle with that.

However, I think if they improved on the Synergy Augment system (less Random pools? Idk) then maybe It could yield some headway on both sides of the debate...

SpankWustler

08-16-2011, 01:22 PM

However, I think if they improved on the Synergy Augment system (less Random pools? Idk) then maybe It could yield some headway on both sides of the debate...

I think this could be accomplished by just making synergy itself skill up faster, so more people would try and could understand the base system. It would also result in more people able to glue parts of pants to their own pants using a synergy furnace, which seems to be a sticking point in all of this.

It mostly mystifies me that people keep mentioning synergy over and over after the SE post that basically said, "Hey, it might not be synergy either way, so stop talking about synergy." I'd think some of these folks' parents were crushed by a synergy furnace, leading them to dress up as bats and...uh...post about how they hate synergy, I guess.

Babekeke

08-16-2011, 02:08 PM

Static all the way please^^

Arcon

08-16-2011, 02:18 PM

Yellow font on my items sucks, end of story.

As was mentioned before, immutable vs. influenced randomness. Pretty much every current "random" drop (that isn't augmented) you can influence somehow, and increase your chances to get it. There's tactical ways to approach the situation. The same can't be said for augments (at least not all kinds of augments, new synergy ones are different, but it's still limited). I'm not saying randomness in itself is bad, but how it is employed.

Another personal issue of mine that shows what I mean is this: I'm a perfectionist. I want the absolute best, always. If a NM drops a rare item with 5% probability and is heavily overcamped, I will camp it, day in day out, to obtain it. That's how I got Peacock Amulet, Trotter Boots, Velocious Belt, etc. and might have gotten Defending Ring if SE didn't botch that up. However, I know that some day, I will get that reward.

I do not know this with random augments. In probability theory it's the difference between a continuous random variable and a discrete one. For a discrete one, with a limited number of results, you can predict how long it will take you to get a certain result, since each has a probability (5% in the case of Velocious Belt for example). However, same does not hold true for continuous variables. Since there's infinitely many possibilities the probability for each one is zero, which means you'll never get what you desire. I know it's not quite as bad in this case, since there aren't actually infinitely many results, but the situation is similar. There's not "like 20 results you can be happy with". For me, there's only one possible result and everything else is a failure. And the probability to get that result is near zero, so the expected time I have to invest into it (and I'm fairly certain money as well) will approach infinity. That's not what I consider fun in this game.

Karbuncle

08-16-2011, 02:28 PM

Another personal issue of mine that shows what I mean is this: I'm a perfectionist. I want the absolute best, always. If a NM drops a rare item with 5% probability and is heavily overcamped, I will camp it, day in day out, to obtain it. That's how I got Peacock Amulet, Trotter Boots, Velocious Belt, etc. and might have gotten Defending Ring if SE didn't botch that up. However, I know that some day, I will get that reward.

The thing is, You don't know you'll get a reward some day. That 5% Drop rate could screw you time and time over, same as Random Augments. You just assume the random-number-generator will eventually favor you.

(I'm aware your final paragraph addresses most of this)

Think of it this way. The best Blade:hi Augments for Byakko's Haidate are AGI+6 Crit Dmg+4% yes?

Well, Whats the difference between getting tatters day in day out until you get the best augment? Vs as you put it "Camping the NM Day in day out til i get the drop".

Each one employs a random variable to get what you want, and with Synergy augments, You know the above combination is a possible.

I believe the difference between synthing an Augment, and not getting what you want, and Killing a mob, and not getting what you want, is very small.

The end result, You just come back and try again another day. I doubt this will change your mind, But i think you'll see i'm correct here. You know your goal because you want too, If my goal is "I want a AGI+6 Byakkos Haidate" and yours is "I want a Peacock Charm", We're both at the mercy of random number generators, and we both know eventually the numbers will favor us and we'll get what we want, and we both know the end result of what we'll get.

I know i wont stop until i get the AGI+6 Haidate, because its possible, Just like you won't stop til you get your drop, because you know its possible. Either situation we're both at the direct mercy of a Random number generator.

Do you see where Im coming from arc :\? whats the difference between setting the goal "I want a perfect Hecatomb Mittens" vs "I want to get xxx drop!", Both are goals you know are possible, and you know the outcome too, and both take time and are at the mercy of random number generators. With the augments I wouldn't say there is an infinite number of variables, The Synergy augments are very tame and it is rather easy to get what you want, as each has about ~5 "HQ" Augments to chose from, and you're getting 3 of those each HQ3 synth, if not a random pool one.

Also with proc's, If we're going to assume that every drop you want can be influenced by procs, We'll assume that Relic Armor upgrades would be via synergy, with a narrow list of Augments, and you can influence your luck greatly with HQ1/2/3 like the Sky/abjr armors.

Thank you for reading this :)

Edit: Edited for Clarity/Fixing some errors.

Arcon

08-16-2011, 03:20 PM

The thing is, You don't know you'll get a reward some day. That 5% Drop rate could screw you time and time over, same as Random Augments. You just assume the random-number-generator will eventually favor you.

Actually I do know. It's a Markov chain with the following transition matrix:
0.95 0.05
0.00 1.00
The probability of reaching state B from state A is 1. Although that's more philosophical as well, I do know what you mean. As I said, it's a game of chances, and with random augments, the chances are just plain worse.

Think of it this way. The best Blade:hi Augments for Byakko's Haidate are AGI+6 Crit Dmg+4% yes?

See, that's another thing. Is it the best? We simply do not know. What if there's a 0.0001% chance to get AGI+7, only it's so rare no one's ever gotten it, or even if someone got it, didn't report it? That's another major gripe about this, we simply don't know what the best results are. Sure, after a while we'll have a rather decent idea, but it's still no way to know for certain. And getting that isn't easy as well.

Well, Whats the difference between getting tatters day in day out until you get the best augment? Vs as you put it "Camping the NM Day in day out til i get the drop".

Aside from the chances being a lot lower, as I said above, I can't even be sure it's the best. For a perfectionist like me that's a major flaw. I don't dislike randomness, I dislike the lack of clarity.

And it's not just the chances or the uncertainty that bothers me, it's that there's no real progression. I hate the Mog Bonanza in the same way. You're not "working" towards anything. You're just standing there and taking your chances, time and again. With empyrean armor you get to do stuff, you get to work towards your goal and you see a progression. As someone said it before:

"With a static system, I know that after 25 NMs, I have 25 more NMs left. With a random system, after 25 NMs I'm still right where I started."

I don't feel like I'm actually working towards something, but instead just rolling the dice, hoping to win the lottery. It was why I hated the Bonanza too, it doesn't feel like I'm working towards anything, just standing around and hoping for the best. As I said before, it's just not fun to me, it's not what I look for in a game. It's a gamble, and I can see how some people are attracted to it (for that matter, I absolutely see where you're coming from, this is a disagreement of opinion), but I'm just not one of them. I could never follow that emotion myself.

I believe achievements should be based on effort instead of luck. For that matter, this is something I dislike about certain NMs as well, yet it's still different, because people do the effort just by camping it, waiting for hours and competing with three other parties, stuff like that, you first must be willing to put up with that in the first place. Besides, I don't know anyone who just got to KA, got claim in 5min and drop right away. However, I do know someone who got a rank 1, rank 2 and two rank 3 wins from Mog Bonanza. It's the same for augments, buying tatters and paying someone to synergize it I hardly count as effort, and it's easy to get "good" augments, but very hard to get the one augment I'm after, the best one. Whatever that may be.

Pyrobunny

08-16-2011, 04:05 PM

they really need to make the af worth using...
"hey lets upgrade my af armor even tho it is shit and there are a million better peices out there"

only way thf af1+2 would be any good is if they added another TH peice.

as for relic+2 th+2 on hands maybe?

they really need to redo all the old af and maybe the relic to fit the jobs as they are used now....

just looking at the smn af1 hands make me die a bit on the inside and u guys want to upgrade it... failsauce

Zhronne

08-16-2011, 04:52 PM

Static upgrades please!

Oh and while we're talking about Relic armour upgrades, don't forget about Nyzul, Limbus and especially Salvage armour! This last kind was very hard to obtain back then, sounds fair for those pieces (or at least a few of them) to receive the same kind of attention you guys are now delivering to relic armour :)

I don't get why almost everybody is so worried about the fact of Relic armour sucking for the most part. I mean, it's not like we have to full-time these new upcoming relic armour +2, do we? Maybe we will for some pieces, but the goal here is to make those items better than they are now as situational/macro pieces, which seems like a good idea to me.
Also, I think people who were thinking about +1>+2 comparing it to the NQ>+1 are really off track.
NQ>+1 was a laughable and minimal increase, with a few noticeable exceptions. I think the +1>+2 upgrade will be a much better increase of stats, and will probably not focus just on increasing the currently existing stats, but adding new one (especially Job Specific bonuses to traits, abilities and spells)

Darkvalkyr

08-16-2011, 05:31 PM

Karb, if all you want is just a 'narrowed down random system' then it may as well be static or else frustration ensues for everyone. If the range of goodness is that small, if someone wants to min-max he might end up having to repeat content until he gets it.

The example posted 'If I have to kill 25 NMs, I'll get it, every NM I kill is one step of the way' vs. 'If I've killed 25 NMs, every NM I kill that doesn't drop it leaves me right where I started' is the most fitting argument here. I want to work for something and be guaranteed it, rather than to end up with mediocre crap.

I notice you keep mentioning mediocre if we go the way of static. If SE goes the way of static, then this mediocre gear is already the best upgrade - or perhaps the only upgrade to the armor. So there's nothing mediocre about it.

If SE DOES make Relic +1 -> Relic +2 the same way how Relic -> Relic +1, then I agree that a lot of armor gets left in the dust - but the difference here is it's not a difference of 1~2 levels worth of stats, it's a whole 20. I'd expect them to change the stats around like they did with Artifact -> Artifact +1.

In my opinion though, I'd rather work on getting something to get something definite instead of the chance that for all of that work, I'd get nothing useful. If you wanted a reason why I'm against random, this is it.

I would like pickable augments though, more than anything.

But seriously, all this discussion is going in circles about Random Vs. Static. I understand that you don't want complete randomness but a narrowed down, more ensured 'you always benefit' random and that's perfectly fine - I might even be for it depending - but the debate's going nowhere until SE tells us about what the stats will be.

Gawd, this feels like discussing Carbon Taxes down under...

Leonlionheart

08-16-2011, 07:33 PM

It's really impossible to pick between the two without examples of their strength and how to obtain them. The only information we have to go on, and the biggest deciding factors, are difficulty obtaining, theoretical difference in utility, the "chance" factor versus the work=100% reward factor, and storability. The biggest reason Static is so popular is work=100% reward and storability.

However, if we were given options with examples, things would be different.

Static would read:
Warrior's Lorica +2:
[Body] All Races
DEF: 65 HP+30 Attack+20 Enmity+12
Enhances "Aggressor" effect (Adds JA Haste +3% and Critical Rate +3% to Aggressor, along with the existing effect)
Lv.95 WAR

While random would read:
Warrior's Lorica
[Body] All Races
DEF: 50 HP+10 Attack+10 Enmity+4
Enhances "Aggressor" effect
Stat set 1: HP+15~35 Attack+7~12 Enmity+6~12
Stat set 2: "Aggressor": Haste+0~6%, Critical Rate+0~6%
Lv.95 WAR
when Stat set 1: can only have a total of +40 numbers shared between HP attack and enmity (I.E. HP+20, Attack+10, Enmity+10, or HP+15, Attack+15, Enmity+10, or HP+25, Attack+7, Enmity+8) and Stat set 2: can only have a total of +6% (I.E. Haste+6%, or Critical Rate+6%, or Haste+4%, Critical Rate+2%, or any combination of the two as long as they total +6%)

I think those choices would be MUCH harder to choose between than the chance at having nothing vs always getting something for your work.

Zhronne

08-16-2011, 09:17 PM

I think those choices would be MUCH harder to choose between than the chance at having nothing vs always getting something for your work.
Maybe I'm not hardcore enough, maybe I suck, maybe something else, but I'd still pick static no matter what.

kingfury

08-16-2011, 09:52 PM

My comments stand from my previous post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12420-Artifact-Armor-4-idea?p=168589&viewfull=1#post168589) even if Synergy isn't the decided method of augmentation.

It CAN be random augments, but only if it's a new and creative system that allows the players the chance to enhance their odds of actually getting something worthwhile during augmentation (examples are in my last post). The consensus agrees the previous "Random systems" we've seen before are very frustrating and poorly designed in terms of enjoyment and payoff for the effort put in.

It CAN be "powerful" static augments so long as the path to unlock them is worthy of the prize. You don't have to make it easy for us Devs, so there's no reason the static augments should be weak.

To clarify: If it's a NEW and IMPROVED "Random system", then I vote Random.
If the Static augments are powerful, but VERY tough to get, then I vote Static.

SNK

08-16-2011, 10:33 PM

Except that, in many cases twilight beat black belt and brown belt.

Full AF3+2 + Black Belt VS Zelus tiara/ AF3+2 body hands legs feet + twilight

15 subtle blow 14 str -5% pdt 3/1024 haste 2% KA rate VS -5 eva 15% 2% DA

If fstr and attack cap twilight easily wins, but you wouldn't know that seeing as you are attached to your trophy item.

Also for badguardian, the JSE neck was shown to be better than faith torque. So again more trophy.

No. No. Just hell No. If you're a full AF3+2 MNK and you're using a Twilight Belt over a Black Belt much less a Brown Belt you are 100% retarded.

MarkovChain

08-16-2011, 11:56 PM

It takes about 10000 "Feed Earth Fewell"s to reach level 80 Synergy. I can understand why people wouldn't want to do it.

If they don't have the patience to get synergy to 80, they won't have the patience to farm any of the static gear. I just find it funny that the same people that refuse random also use synergy as an argument against it. I'm putting money on hundreds/thousands of dynamis currency for a single piece, and after that you'll see a bunch of QQ crying how they don't have money to buy currency, they don't have friend to farm with or dynamis is too hard because they can't solo it.

SE is trying to lead the game out of abyssea and it's going to make a nice chunk of butthurts. If you read camate's post they clearly have in mind to make relic +2 not accessible to the first guy you meat in jeuno that spams NPC for their seals.

Byrth

08-17-2011, 12:27 AM

If they don't have the patience to get synergy to 80, they won't have the patience to farm any of the static gear. I just find it funny that the same people that refuse random also use synergy as an argument against it. I'm putting money on hundreds/thousands of dynamis currency for a single piece, and after that you'll see a bunch of QQ crying how they don't have money to buy currency, they don't have friend to farm with or dynamis is too hard because they can't solo it.

SE is trying to lead the game out of abyssea and it's going to make a nice chunk of butthurts. If you read camate's post they clearly have in mind to make relic +2 not accessible to the first guy you meat in jeuno that spams NPC for their seals.

I farm Dynamis solo daily. Dynamis is fun because the battle system is still fun and I get to fight and push for efficiency with a time limit.

Synergy was designed to be a re-vamp of the crafting system. Make it more interactive and a little more skill based, as opposed to just combining the right ingredients with the right crystal and waiting for the random number generator to spit out another break on a recipe you passed the cap of 5 years ago. By and large I agree that Synergy is more fun than normal crafting. The problem is that sitting there and spamming a menu 10,000 times before you can make anything worthwhile is boring. My first attempt at skilling Synergy on my mule only got me to level 2 before I gave up out of boredom, yet I can farm Dynamis daily without complaint.

I finally got Synergy to level 80 in anticipation of the Salvage and AF2 upgrades, but I'd be just as happy as anyone else to see SE not go down that path. I don't really want to end up Synergizing stuff for everyone I know, but I also wouldn't ask them to navigate a crappy menu system 10,000 times just so they can do it themselves.

MarkovChain

08-17-2011, 02:03 AM

I farm dynamis daily too and we are starting our second relic, and yes it's fun. Anyway I doubt currency is going to be involved, my bet in on NMs in cop dynamis.

Synergy is not really a way to revamp crafting, it's a cheap way to craft and the good thing about it is rare/ex equippement crafting.
Many high end items require several people with capped standart craft skill too. My point is that capping synergy is a giant grind, easily accessible, easily plannable, yet all the whinners are against it or seem to hate it so I think something is wrong.

Valisk

08-17-2011, 04:44 AM

Bulrogg

08-17-2011, 05:38 AM

Morgantisthedon

08-17-2011, 05:45 AM

OMG! STATIC!!!!!!!!

Reason alone and enough said ............ storable , space issues.
I have 80 for everything and utalize the storage slips. I have tons agmented stuff on me. If it is agmented it is not sendable to mules or storable I DO NOT WANT TO SEE IT! (bad enough I got elite fights and SKY agmented stuff already!). Just what I would not need is alot of stuff I agmented and waisted time on just to clog my space up even if it is mariganly better.
Yes I know you probably could ungamented it to store it but why would I ? (wastyed time when you do that)Thats why I say static hands down space issues! No comparrison no need to arguee no need to vote more. Having all jobs and tons agmented gear for them to kill more my space is something I have no intrest in having if I cant store them.

Economizer

08-17-2011, 06:20 AM

I would love the ability to pick static augments for our existing AF3+2 armor like we did for Moonshade Earring, Nuevo Coselete, Royal Redingote, and Mirke Wardecors. It prevents our AF3 from being obsolete as well as allows players to customize each piece to fit their playstyle. Allowing us to pick our augments would create a degree of uniqueness as well.

This was a good system for these pieces but...

I can see it now. WHM Relic feet augment choices, pick two:
Banish potency +3%
Accuracy +10 Attack +10
STR+80 MND+10
STR-160 Converts 5% of "Cure" amount to MP

@#$%

Sigh, I guess I'll give up the greatest pair of Hexa Strike feet ever for the greatest cure feet ever, because I have to prioritize. /cry

No thanks. (And I know these stats are incredibly broken and extreme but they highlight another way augments could screw players over. At least with uniform stats I don't have to pick and choose beyond whether or not put effort into getting the piece, vs. a potential pain in the butt. But who knows, since SE said they were going to make any augments job specific, they might forget that White Mage occasionally goes clubbing, since they pretty much forgot it on the pretty useless Relic set altogether.)

DebbieGibson

08-17-2011, 06:40 AM

Why is that the greatest curing feet? I never need mp on whm

Kendlar

08-17-2011, 07:37 AM

Static please.

Khajit

08-17-2011, 07:58 AM

Static. The ability to store it made it automatically win for most people.

Sakura317

08-18-2011, 03:18 AM

However, if we were given options with examples, things would be different.

I'm not the authrized person of SE, so I'd like to avoid to translate it, but today the examples of [Static] and [Random] are shown in Japanese forum.

Here. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12411-レリック装束-2-を実装してください?p=171377#post171377)

It's a shame that the examples are not Relic armors, but Byakko Haidate and Fighter mask!

Anyway, look foward to Kamate or other English reps post!

Karbuncle

08-18-2011, 03:20 AM

Can you describe to us what they say? I want to know if i should gloat about static being hideously worse.

Or if i should be pleasantly surprised and happy that they aren't too different.

Hope we get a translation soon!

Cybernetic_Empire

08-18-2011, 03:21 AM

Byrth

08-18-2011, 05:46 AM

Not sure if this has been touched on or not so here goes. The significance of Relic +1 and +2 would go through the roof if you actually added to the potency of Enhances "JA" effects with each successive +. Say Melee gaiters for example. The boost to counterstance is believed to be 10% for the base piece. However, the boost to Melee gaiters +1 is also believed to be 10%. Therefore I've never had any interest in upgrading the piece to gain what amounts to 1 DEF, 1 DEX, and 2 guarding skill. If you want people to actually be interested in upgrading the pieces and not have the whole system DOA then you'd have to do something like this.

I'm also of the opinion that Artifact armor needs this same change. You may actually revive limbus and sea to a certain degree if you do it right.

I agree with this. Limbus was not hurt by the fact that most of the +1 versions were uninteresting and mostly meaningless minor stat upgrades (barring THF and RNG hands), but CoP Dynamis was.

The only known useful "Enhance"ment to come out of CoP Dynamis are WHM Pants +1 (Barspell +22 instead of +20) and BRD Body/Legs +1 (removing the negative penalties). If, for instance, you made it so Warrior's Calligae +1 only had to be worn for activation of Berserk and not for the duration like Warrior's Calligae NQ, maybe hardcore WARs would care about getting AF2+1. If I'm going to end up farming a bunch of stuff just so I can +2 my DNC Legs and get another STR+1, I probably have better things to do (like afk).

Francisco

08-18-2011, 01:05 PM

Keep in mind, these are just examples - and the JP Community Rep said something along the lines of "it's hard to give an example - but here are some examples". So take these with a grain of salt...

From the JP link:

A rewrite of certain stats is possible...

Example:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Fighter%27s_Mask
vs
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Fighter%27s_Mask_%2B1

(the INT+1 was replaced with VIT+5)

Using Byakko's Haidate as an example:
Base stats are: DEF: 42 DEX+15 Haste +5% Lightning+50.

Through synergy, these augments are possible:

Accuracy +1 ~ 8
Store TP +3 ~ 5
DEX +1 ~ 5

There are other augments possible, but they may share slots AGI/MND/DEX & Accuracy and Critical Hit Damage... so you may need to get lucky here if you can only get one or the other...

A poorly augmented Byakko's Haidate might be something like:

DEF: 42 DEX+16 Lightning+50 Haste+5% Store TP+3 Accuracy +1

A nicely augmented Byakko's Haidate might be something like:

DEF: 42 DEX +20 Lightning+50 Haste+5% Store TP+5 Accuracy+8If we went with static stats for a Byakko's Haidate (assuming it was the option instead of synergy) - it might offer possibilities such as...

DEF:42 DEX +15 Lightning+50 Haste +6%

DEF:42 DEX +20 Lightning+50 Haste +5%

DEF:42 DEX +15 Lightning+50 Haste +5% Accuracy+10Mentions some stuff about AF and AF+1 (not relic) - using the WAR Mask as an example... but it's a bit hard to decipher that at the moment...

The general idea seems to be something like "VIT will grant STR" and "DEX will grant INT and MND"... doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Something about maybe adding Attack and Accuracy as well.

Other notes:

- Random stats can be overwritten if unwanted.
- No chance at both random and static, as there's a lot of equipment to consider.
- No negative stats from random.

Raksha

08-18-2011, 01:51 PM

Francisco

08-18-2011, 02:03 PM

Again - they were just some random numbers they threw out there, totally meaningless - but to give a very general idea.

Idea seemed to me that static = a significant increase/add in one stat, random = a slightly less significant increase/add in 2-3 stats.

I'll make up an example of my own:

Speed Belt:

Base: Haste +6%
Random #1: Haste+6% STR+6 Store TP+6
Random #2: Haste+7% Store TP+5
Random #3: Haste+6% STR+3 Store TP+3
Static #1: Haste+7%
Static #2: Haste +6% Store TP+7
Static #3: Haste +6% STR+7

Again, that's just what I take away from it... I could be wrong though.

Leonlionheart

08-18-2011, 07:34 PM

When I think of random I see stats like random pool augments on sky/abj gear.

I mean look at Hecatomb Gloves +1. Base stats are STR+8, DEX+5. The "Static" augments are Various skills +1~4, and the beautiful Crit Damage +1~4. The "Random" augments are Attack+1~8, HP+?~20, Accuracy+1~8, STR+1~6, etc.

So, staticly you get an amazing piece. STR+8, DEX+5, Crit Dmg+4%. AWESOME. Randomly you have a TINY chance of getting something as amazing as STR+14, DEX+5, Crit Dmg+4%. That could be HOLY CRAP THE MOST AMAZING THING EVER. Heafoc have +13 STR, -4 DEX, and -8 Accuracy, and they are the next runner up. However I've yet to even see a screen shot of both a maxed "Static" aug and a maxed "Random" aug on any piece of Sky/ABJ gear. Best I've seen is Shura legs +1 with MAB+2(Max 5?) and STR+6(max random aug).

This makes me think that simply random augs, though they could be glorious, would be a waste of time when compared to a static aug, which is still good.

Atomic_Skull

08-18-2011, 07:48 PM

So are the JP's mostly for random or mostly for static?

Karbuncle

08-18-2011, 07:50 PM

I love how 10ACC = 1 Haste = 5 DEX.

Looks like I can probably ignore relic upgrades no matter which option they choose.

This is probably going to echo a lot of peoples opinions here :P So why not just make it random! Especially if its Dead on Arrival anyway !

So are the JP's mostly for random or mostly for static?

Good question!

Leonlionheart

08-18-2011, 07:54 PM

So are the JP's mostly for random or mostly for static?

I can't imagine JP's, who have a tendency to gimp down to COR/WHM and BLU using lolmacc ToM swords (seriously the worst choice other than like, CHR), choosing anything other than the safe option.

Sakura317

08-18-2011, 09:18 PM

Disclaimer: I'm not SE person, so please read this translation as a reference.
When the formal post will be posted by English Community Rep, please forget my translation.

------------------
Hallo, everyone.
Thank you very much for a lot of feedbacks.

Many of you requested the samples the difference between "Randam Stats" and "Static Stats", so I asked a big faver to the developpers, and they've made the samples.

Some of you might tell it is no point that these samples are not reclic geares,though it is difficult to prepair the 2 sample patterns of all 20 jobs, and it might be caused of misunderstanding even though after I expain it is just on the trial basis, and the misunderstanding might be caused of straying the discssion, so we decide that it is better to show other samples.

Now I come to the point.

I'll explain using by 2 cases to show how the margin of between "Randam Stats" and "Static Status".

One way is that comparing an exisiting randam equipment with Synergy to the same equipment with static status by way of experiment.
And the other way is that comparing an exisiting static enhanced equipment (like Limbus AF+1) to the same equipment with randam status by way of experiment.

1. Existing randam quipments vs it would be static

The example is Byakko Haidate.
The base status of Byakko Haidate is [DEF:43 DEX+15 Resist Lightning +50 Haste +5%].

Randam case:

It is used Synergy, so I pick up HQ3 case.
When we get HQ3, [STP+3~5, DEX+1~5, Acc+1~8] might be added.
(Off course other status like MND, Critical etc exist, you need some luck to get nice status from this step.)

And more the figure is also variable, so the result is as follows.

The minimum [STP+3% DEX+1 ACC+1] =[DEF:43 DEX+16 ACC+1 STP+3% Resist Lightning +50 Haste +5%]
The maximum [STP+5 DEX+5 ACC+8] = [DEF:43 DEX+20 ACC+8 STP+5% Resist Lightning +50 Haste +5%]

* This is already introduced equipment as Synergy Augments, so this status have the potential of adding yours.

Static case:

We don't eliminate the essential status from based equipment, but just add a little status on it, or some status will be eliminated (in Byakko Haidate case, like Resist Lightining) and some custom status will be added.

For example,
Add [Haste +1 %] = [DEF:43 DEX+15 Resist Lightning +50 Haste +6%]
Add [DEX +5] = [DEF:43 DEX+20 Resist Lightning +50 Haste +5%]
Add [Acc +10] = [DEF:43 DEX+15 Acc +10 Resist Lightning +50 Haste +5%]
is the best status as if you choose static status.

If you hope more powefull status, we have to impose hard condition to obtain it, not everyone can obtain.

However, in the case of relic armors, some parts are usufull and others not, so we might have possibility to add attractive status to not so usufull ones.

Next the revers pattern.

2. Exisiting static status vs it would be randam

The example is Fighter mask.
The base staus is [DEF24 HP+15 DEX+3 INT+1 Emmity +1]

Static case:

When you upgrade it with Limbus parts, it will be [DEF28 HP+15 DEX+5 VIT+5 Emmity+1 hHP+1]

Randam case:

We'll add variation of the status that will be added, and increase the range of figure, and the result might be sometimes higher than static and soetimes lower.

For example:
You might win: the besed INT will be eliminated and STR is added.
You might lose: the based DEX will be eliminated and INT or MND is added.
By some chanse, we add Acc+ or Attack+ in the variation.

--------

In Mocchi's statment, some Qs and As are added after this, but I'm tired to translate...sorrry.

Sakura317

08-18-2011, 10:07 PM

So are the JP's mostly for random or mostly for static?

Most of Japanese players also hope static status.
And not only hoping static status, but also JP players (include me) hope to raise the equip level to 90 or more, and add equiv status for the level.

Some people hope randam, but they also hope the equipment after enhancement should be worth to equip.

Rexen

08-18-2011, 10:26 PM

If you hope more powefull status, we have to impose hard condition to obtain it, not everyone can obtain.
This. Why can't they have this mindset anymore? It would be good to have armor you have to work for, something to keep you playing and keep you busy. I'd rather static enhancments that took a while to get and were worthwhile in the end. I honestly think that Empyrean +2 is too easy to get for how good it is, a lot of what I have I haven't exactly worked hard to get.

Horadrim

08-18-2011, 11:36 PM

This. Why can't they have this mindset anymore? It would be good to have armor you have to work for, something to keep you playing and keep you busy. I'd rather static enhancments that took a while to get and were worthwhile in the end. I honestly think that Empyrean +2 is too easy to get for how good it is, a lot of what I have I haven't exactly worked hard to get.

My only problem with this is that I feel AF3 should have been a baseline gear with good, useable stats. AF3+1 should have been what AF3+2 is, but harder to get, an AF3+2 should have required -REAL- work to acquire. Not just farming bosses over and over again -- like a quest/storyline to work through or something for each job.

As it stands, AF3+1 is more of a headache than a challenge. Suffering through dealing either with idiots, poor droprates, or both is far from challenging or compelling.

Raksha

08-19-2011, 12:56 AM

This is probably going to echo a lot of peoples opinions here :P So why not just make it random! Especially if its Dead on Arrival anyway !

If it's going to be worthless anyway then they should give up on the idea, or at the very least implement the version which takes the least amount of manpower.

Karbuncle

08-19-2011, 01:04 AM

Well in a way, We're the ones holding the gun to its head and pulling the trigger, and the bullet is static!

Camiie

08-19-2011, 01:12 AM

I don't exactly know when ppl stopped wanting to actually work for their good gear in this game but I hope it's random. More power for more work is just fine by me. Whatever gets the better stats {Yes, please.}.

Random is random. If someone goes 1/1 on the best possible augment or some item from an NM/event, did they really "work" for it? If someone tries time and time again and comes away empty handed from now until the game shuts down what do you say to that? Do you call them gimp because they don't have the best possible gear or do you give them credit for trying?

Random is NOT the same as effort. Random is not the same as determination. Random is a way to squeeze the greatest amount of time played out of the least amount of content.

Karbuncle

08-19-2011, 01:26 AM

Random is random. If someone goes 1/1 on the best possible augment or some item from an NM/event, did they really "work" for it?

Yes. If they didn't work for it, They wouldn't have it. How much work involves varies, But in time everyone can get the same outcome, so long as they stick to their goal.

I Believe it is no different from a person going 1/1 on kraken club BCNM, as opposed to the man 0/80, Luck favors some, but others, with determination, will be rewarded as well.

If someone tries time and time again and comes away empty handed from now until the game shuts down what do you say to that?

Bad luck is bad luck. However, This scenario is so incredibly unlikely you have a better chance of winning the lottery twice back to back then being killed by Superman than never getting a good augment if you tried continuously until the game shuts down.

Especially if the Augment system was similar to the Current Sky/Synergy Augments, with a tame list of Augments, and ways to control the outcome to some extent (in the way that HQ1/2/3 Allow you to control it)

Do you call them gimp because they don't have the best possible gear

No, Because random is random. When you see someone with Augmented Byakko's and it has Crit.Dmg+3%, You wouldn't care that its not +4%, Its petty, Even people at BG really would not call someone gimp for not having the perfect piece of Augmented armor, because frankly they know how much it can be troubling.

However they also know, as well as i, That its a realistic goal that will reward you in time. No one truly loves random augments, but in my eyes I'd take random-good augments over Always-Mediocre Dead-on-arrival content.

or do you give them credit for trying?

I would, and I'm sure many others would as well. Only people who would insult someone for not having a perfect piece of augmented gear are the type of human trash who look for reasons to act superior.

Random is NOT the same as effort. Random is not the same as determination.

I disagree here. You don't get the augment you want? You try again. You put forth effort by getting the drops/Tatters, You show determination by trying again until you receive the reward you want.

Its no more random than getting Salvage Armor was, Instead of dealing with a Random Number generator on which Augments you receive, You deal with a Random Number Generator on what drops you get. Didn't get the drop this time? Try again. In the same light, Not the right augment? Try again.

You do not consider it effort or determination merely because you don't want to consider it as such. Effort is Effort, Determination is Determination, rather its effort and determination to get that perfect Augment you want, getting the tatters/items, Synthing/whatever, and trying until you succeed... Or Determination and effort to get that drop you want.

Look in the face of someone who went 1/100 on their ideal Synergy Augment and try to tell them what they did was not effort or determination, See what they say, Because I bet they would think that that augment is the fruition of their labor.

random is a way to squeeze the greatest amount of time played out of the least amount of content.

This i will not argue, But again i submit to you, I would rather have a slimmer of chance this content be worthwhile, than take the easy route and be doomed with mediocre stats and content that will be Dead on Arrival.

I do not condemn you that your opinion differs from mine, Merely wish to show you where he might be coming from. Feel free to discuss with me further.

MarkovChain

08-19-2011, 02:20 AM

Static case:

...

If you hope more powefull status, we have to impose hard condition to obtain it, not everyone can obtain.
.

The only thing we need to know is this. It means all of you will QQ regarless of the choice. Either static are going to be easily obtainable and will suck or if you want worthwhile gear you need to work. I'm sure either choice will suck but at least I'm happy with the dev attitude.

DebbieGibson

08-19-2011, 02:34 AM

I am disgusted by the fact that so many of you equate randomness with difficulty. Grow some balls, seriously.

Karbuncle

08-19-2011, 02:36 AM

I have to assume you mean the static people cause theres only like 2 of us here who want random :X

Neisan_Quetz

08-19-2011, 02:59 AM

I vote static, worthwhile augments, and difficult to obtain, otherwise don't bother.

Olor

08-19-2011, 03:30 AM

let us choice what augment we want on every piece.
and let us store our equip.

This. I like the "choose your augment" system.

With how crappy some AF is I sometimes wonder if the people making it even know what kind of stats WE WANT on armor.

If we can't choose augments I would say random... because so far it seems the devs have been content to make most AF gear stats pretty mediocre.

Deadgye

08-19-2011, 03:45 AM

I've only read 3 posts on page 2 and don't plan to read any more, so I'll just say this: Static przu.

Leonlionheart

08-19-2011, 03:52 AM

This. I like the "choose your augment" system.

With how crappy some AF is I sometimes wonder if the people making it even know what kind of stats WE WANT on armor.

If we can't choose augments I would say random... because so far it seems the devs have been content to make most AF gear stats pretty mediocre.

Considering 99% of the time the only stat players care about is haste...

Manque

08-19-2011, 04:32 AM

already brought up. sry.

DebbieGibson

08-19-2011, 05:03 AM

I have to assume you mean the static people cause theres only like 2 of us here who want random :X

I would prefer random, make it so you need some hair on your chest in order to attempt it. I would love to see more whining about the RNG on here.

Karbuncle

08-19-2011, 05:05 AM

I would prefer random, make it so you need some hair on your chest in order to attempt it. I would love to see more whining about the RNG on here.

Then we're on the same side :D!

Seriha

08-19-2011, 05:08 AM

This. Why can't they have this mindset anymore? It would be good to have armor you have to work for, something to keep you playing and keep you busy. I'd rather static enhancments that took a while to get and were worthwhile in the end. I honestly think that Empyrean +2 is too easy to get for how good it is, a lot of what I have I haven't exactly worked hard to get.

Content too few can hope to access, in this given case a theoretical reworked +2, isn't really content that should be focused on as it panders to a minority. Players who crave this can be thrown a bone now and then, sure, but let's stop pretending Abyssea's atma system and the "ease" it brings is going to carry over as is to every future game event. VW can arguably prove challenging now (in some cases, not for the right reasons) and people craving endgame while in the transition phase to 99 are just asking for disappointment. Maybe you'll get your wish if Emp gear has an eventual +4 equivalent, but for now, chill.

SubDragon

08-19-2011, 05:33 AM

STATIC!
Inventory -100 no thanks for all the equipment out there
STATIC!
Random bs has screwed me over from day one with random augments from book nms Dex -5 on Hagun seriously??
STATIC!

Anissa

08-19-2011, 05:33 AM

The only random aspect of random augments is the number of times you have to repeat the augmentation process. Once the field of possible augments are known, one combination of stats will stand out as the goal when augmenting that piece of armor. Random augments don't cater to different play styles. Random augments aren't more difficult to obtain, they are only more repetitive. The perfect example is the dominion trophy system.

Bestia set for drg: Haste+4 on the legs. Everything else can be ignored.
Skopos set for cor: Snapshot +5 on the body. Everything else can be ignored.
Spry set for nin: Nothing to see here.
Mederi set for blu: Str +6 on feet. I would go for blue magic skill +3 for magical spells and additional effects, but then I wouldn't be able to macro correctly. Fast Cast+5 on the body for utsusemi casting, unless you have that augment on mirke wardecors like I do. Everything else can be ignored.
Literae set for blm: Int +3 on hat as a hold over until goetia+2, then dark skill +4. Everything else can be ignored.
Facio set for whm: Cure potencty +15, or however much you need to cap when not using solace. Cure cast time -3 on gloves. Everything else can be ignored.

Obviously none of these sets were intended to be powerful, but I think they make a good model for what random relic augmenting would look like. You go out to obtain obtain trophies, you accumulate trophies quickly, then you try for a good augment. 90% of the time it is not the perfect augment, so you drop the item and try again. This is not real difficulty.

If the devs feel it would be unbalanced to give us powerful static augments, couldn't they just lower the drop rate for the augmenting "trophies" or (if trophies drop from nms and not standard mobs) make the enemies which drop trophies harder to kill or pop? Personally, I like actual challenges, not easily-accessible-but-has-to-be-redone-zero-to-twenty-times grinds.

Kit_Katz

08-19-2011, 07:41 AM

Please, please make them static.

Cursed

08-19-2011, 08:27 AM

Static - win
Random - Dev team being cruel.

You should realize that one of the major appeals of MMO's is the reward system.
We will work and put in the hours for better rewards, providing we're not at the mercy of randomness.

EDIT: Repeating content is just a time sink. We should be awarded less rewards for such, and be encouraged to try harder content for better rewards.
If anything, you can keep your random synergy system for mediocre rewards for those of us who are not yet in a position to take on the harder content.

Don't reward repetition, reward advancement!

Fix PLD.

that is all

Leonlionheart

08-19-2011, 08:35 AM

PLD is fixed.

It sucks in Abyssea, so what? So does DRK SAM SCH PUP RNG DRG RDM COR BST SMN.

It's pretty much necessary for Voidwatch, which is the brunt of all other content currently worth doing.

zataz

08-19-2011, 11:24 AM

random plz

Francisco

08-19-2011, 11:46 AM

Couple of random points that pertain to the last few pages... using extreme imaginary cases to make my point.

- I'd rather kill a tough NM or obtain a certain number of items with difficulty to obtain a really nice piece of gear.

- A system where we need to obtain one rare/ex item through mining, use it to synthesize a piece of equipment and obtain a piece of gear with the following augments:

ONE OF: Accuracy +1~8, Critical Hit Damage +1~5%, Attack +1~8
ONE OF: STR +1~5, AGI +1~5, DEX +1~5, INT +1~5, MND +1~5, VIT +1~5, CHR +1~5
ZERO TO ONE OF: Store TP +1~5, Subtle Blow +1~5, HP+1~12, MP +1~12

...would be pretty unacceptable at this point in the games life. Everyone would want a STR+5 Crit+5 Store TP+5 piece, no one would ever get it due to crap like Attack+4, INT+3 HP+3, or whatever...

I'd rather do something more concrete and just get STR+4, Crit+4, Store TP+4, or whatever.

Lilia

08-19-2011, 01:18 PM

static :)
random :(

Atomic_Skull

08-19-2011, 03:06 PM

The only thing we need to know is this. It means all of you will QQ regarless of the choice. Either static are going to be easily obtainable and will suck or if you want worthwhile gear you need to work. I'm sure either choice will suck but at least I'm happy with the dev attitude.

I don't mind it being hard to obtain. I worked my ass off to self fund a mandau for years and I wouldn't have had it any other way. The harder it is to obtain the more awesome it is when you finally attain it.

Arcon

08-19-2011, 03:21 PM

I don't mind it being hard to obtain. I worked my ass off to self fund a mandau for years and I wouldn't have had it any other way. The harder it is to obtain the more awesome it is when you finally attain it.

FFXI had many aspects like that and I loved them all. Sad how most of it is gone these days. I play for achievements mostly. I know it's different for every person, but it's just how I work. That's why the new stuff annoys me so much.

MarkovChain

08-19-2011, 04:15 PM

- I'd rather kill a tough NM or obtain a certain number of items with difficulty to obtain a really nice piece of gear.

Start leveling synergy, naow.

Asymptotic

08-19-2011, 06:07 PM

Why not allow two upgrade systems?

1.) An initial upgrade to upgrade Relic+1 to Relic+2 giving static stats.
2.) The ability to further upgrade Relic+2 equipment via random stats from synergy.

Best of both worlds. Requires a little more programming on your part, but it offers so much more potential.

Camiie

08-19-2011, 07:10 PM

You do not consider it effort or determination merely because you don't want to consider it as such. Effort is Effort, Determination is Determination, rather its effort and determination to get that perfect Augment you want, getting the tatters/items, Synthing/whatever, and trying until you succeed... Or Determination and effort to get that drop you want.

Look in the face of someone who went 1/100 on their ideal Synergy Augment and try to tell them what they did was not effort or determination, See what they say, Because I bet they would think that that augment is the fruition of their labor.

I was merely trying to say that random and effort are not synonyms, but people often treat them as such.

Maybe you aren't like this, but all too often people only see their preferred method of obtaining gear as the valid way. If it's not random or doesn't require 18 people or more then it's not earned. If it's gear you get from a questline (including non-empyrean magian) or points/tokens or lowmanable NMs, then it's just free gear and required no work whatsoever. That's the vibe I'm getting from some folks in this thread.

Karbuncle

08-19-2011, 07:25 PM

I was merely trying to say that random and effort are not synonyms, but people often treat them as such.

Maybe you aren't like this, but all too often people only see their preferred method of obtaining gear as the valid way. If it's not random or doesn't require 18 people or more then it's not earned. If it's gear you get from a questline (including non-empyrean magian) or points/tokens or lowmanable NMs, then it's just free gear and required no work whatsoever. That's the vibe I'm getting from some folks in this thread.

I should point out, over time, I think i can accept Static augments, As long as they're worthwhile content. I don't want this content to be dead on arrival. Your average player won't spend needless hours for a marginal +1DEX on Assassin's Bonnet when it will not even beat current Abyssea level 80 gear.

However, if it was really difficult and Great armor, but static, I'd be okay!

Creelo

08-19-2011, 07:51 PM

No matter what, I'd vote for Static since I just can't stand random augments.

But I mean, why doesn't SE just make it Static AND allow for the upgrade to AF2+2 to be truly worthwhile?

It's lame that the whole "random" process would be the ONLY way to get the best stats for the AF2+2, why not just have awesome stats and make the process Static? <.> Wouldn't this please... everyone?

If they were to make AF2+2 to be equipped at lvl 90+ and give the stat upgrades from AF2+1 -> AF2+2 a pretty big boost or just dramatically change some of the stats that are pretty much useless (Evasion+5 on Bard's Cuffs +1, Parrying Skill+4 on Bard's Slippers +1, SE? <.< Thanks, but no thanks. X.X)

As it's been stated, SE's gonna HAVE to make stats on AF2+2 very nice if people are ever gonna want to upgrade useless pieces like the Brd AF2 Hands/Feet I mentioned above. :/

The Dev. Team should really give us some examples to better inform us of their direction on AF2+2 Stats.

MarkovChain

08-19-2011, 08:05 PM

why not just have awesome stats and make the process Static? .

Because good gear should not be available to anyone. Why ? Game balance.

If it's not random or doesn't require 18 people or more then it's not earned. If it's gear you get from a questline (including non-empyrean magian) or points/tokens or lowmanable NMs, then it's just free gear and required no work whatsoever. That's the vibe I'm getting from some folks in this thread.

Correct, because it means anyone can get anything w/o implying themselves, as in, build parties, makes friends, build linkshell, and such. If every good gear in the game becomes available without "effort" like teamwork and randomness the game implodes. AH becomes worthless, food worthless, crafting worthless etc.

Arcon

08-19-2011, 08:14 PM

Because good gear should not be available to anyone. Why ? Game balance.

So, relics don't fit that description? Static approach and awesome stats. That doesn't mean it's available to everyone.

MarkovChain

08-19-2011, 08:51 PM

Relics are (now) available to anyone, however, as you know, they suck. You can enter everyday and even solo on BST you'll rack a nice amount of coins. However static does not make sense in this case as you don't have any choice between a way to quickly get it with luck and difficulty and the current way. Beside soloing a relic would take years still.

Byrth

08-19-2011, 09:43 PM

Risk aversion, people want static. Human nature. The end~!

Karbuncle

08-19-2011, 09:48 PM

Risk aversion, people want static. Human nature. The end~!

Pretty much, as if it was ever any contest :(

DebbieGibson

08-19-2011, 09:58 PM

Risk aversion, people want static. Human nature. The end~!

Unfortunately

Karbuncle

08-19-2011, 10:02 PM

IDK though, Something tells me if people were handed 2 things to eat, one of them labeled "Poo Flavored" and the other "Mystery Flavored", More people would bite into Mystery flavored.

Problem is, SE just gave us "Mystery Flavored Bacon" and "Mystery Flavored food", and with no real consequences for either shown, people pick the safest route and chose the bacon (static)

Byrth

08-19-2011, 10:11 PM

Yeah, psychologists have also done series of experiments where they present 2 options, some variation of:
Option 1: You get $0.10 every time
Option 2: You get $1.00 a certain percentage of the time

Then they vary the probability of receiving $1.00 and see how high it has to get before Option 2 is preferred over Option 1. The basic answer is that it has to be very frequent in order for randomness to be preferred, even if it would average out to more money if you took Option 2 whenever the probability was over 10%.

Francisco

08-19-2011, 11:54 PM

Because good gear should not be available to anyone. Why ? Game balance.

Your opinion, but I think at this point SE disagrees with you.

This game is a business, and as such requires keeping customers happy.

Stuff like Fafhogg/KB was "bad content" because it excluded 95% of the player base from some of the best gear at the time... not because they were horrendously difficult, but because those NMs typically belonged to 1-2 linkshells per server - and the only way to realistically participate in that content was blatant cheating.

Stuff like Salvage, Limbus, Einherjar and yes, Abyssea, was great content as it added (varying degrees of) great gear obtained through varying degrees of difficulty... and was reasonably accessible to everyone... (Einherjar being the least accessible as it usually required an alliance).

Correct, because it means anyone can get anything w/o implying themselves, as in, build parties, makes friends, build linkshell, and such. If every good gear in the game becomes available without "effort" like teamwork and randomness the game implodes. AH becomes worthless, food worthless, crafting worthless etc.Thing is, so far any event that has given random augments does not require much effort in building parties, making friends... definitely does not require much of a linkshell (if at all)... AH and crafting have already been worthless for years mostly... a few AH items were still popular before abyssea, but people usually just put them on bazaar to avoid taxes.

Stuff that requires teamwork = good + challenge... bearing in mind there's not going to be many 18 person alliances now... it's the nature of the game which is going on 10 years old... most people have a core group of friends they play with now

Randomness = artificial difficulty increase

Relics are (now) available to anyone, however, as you know, they suck. You can enter everyday and even solo on BST you'll rack a nice amount of coins. However static does not make sense in this case as you don't have any choice between a way to quickly get it with luck and difficulty and the current way. Beside soloing a relic would take years still.Again, game age... I can't see anyone starting a relic (no matter how good it is) at this point unless they have the means to finish within a few months or so.

Say it takes three years to solo a relic. What will FFXI be like in three years? We really don't know - but I'm thinking it's not worth the effort to sink "years" into a relic weapon... even if they beat out Empyreans eventually.

Yeah, psychologists have also done series of experiments where they present 2 options, some variation of:
Option 1: You get $0.10 every time
Option 2: You get $1.00 a certain percentage of the time

Option 3: Take part in a clinical study not done in Mexico.