Bst Job adjustment manifesto concerns and questions.

[Gotterdammerung]

# Vision
Charmers (not necessarily the kind that would buy you a drink at the local tavern) and masters of animal communication that tame feral beasts and call them forth as pets to aid in combat and provide support to their allies.

We plan to broaden the range of monsters that beastmasters can coax into becoming their pets. Furthermore, we'd like to see beastmasters shed their reputation as lone wolves by endowing their pets with more abilities that provide assistance to party members.


# Example Adjustments

* A new ability to call forth pets that, like the avatars Odin and Alexander, immediately use their characteristic ability then disappear.
* Adding more pet-specific abilities.
* Revising the effects of the Familiar ability.

I have no complaints about this announcement about bst. Most of it was pretty vague and could therefore turn out perfect or horrible. So mainly i just had questions and concerns about it.

My first question is pertaining to the flavor text.
We plan to broaden the range of monsters that beastmasters can coax into becoming their pets.

This sounds like it is referring to charmable monsters. But could be referring to an expanded jug list. Can you clarify?


My next concern is regarding this,
Furthermore, we'd like to see beastmasters shed their reputation as lone wolves by endowing their pets with more abilities that provide assistance to party members.

If you are adding onto what a bst can bring to a party then this is fine with me.
BUT if you are considering taking away a bst's ability to solo, I am against this new direction. And the majority of the bst community will be as well.



as for
* Revising the effects of the Familiar ability its a good idea. The 2 hour is somewhat lacking. However i would ask you to try to add onto the current ability, not simply replace it. There is a thread in the bst forums with several good ideas on the topic.


On the topic of
* Adding more pet-specific abilities., this statement is encouraging but generic. New pet specific abilities could mean literally anything.
My concern here is that they will be mostly useless like spur (for those that dont play bst, spur is like a meditate that takes a minute to work and only adds 10-20 tp to a pet who can't ws at 100% like everyone else but has to wait for a command that is on an incredibly long timer. lol).
Please consider the actual value of the pet specific command. Also spoilers asap would be wonderful.


And lastly, on this

* A new ability to call forth pets that, like the avatars Odin and Alexander, immediately use their characteristic ability then disappear.


Since u chose the words "new ability" i assume this is NOT a new function of familiar but a seperate ability altogether.

My concern on this ability is,
Jugs are expensive. 9-12k for a single dipper on my server. As it stands, bst can currently only have 1 PET OUT AT A TIME.

If this rule of 1 pet stands then the temporary pets would not become available until our charmed pet or jug pet was released.

This would make the new ability very frustrating and nonfunctional.

Please consider allowing these "special pets" to be summoned WITH our current pet out. And if their characteristic ability is a BUFF, please consider allowing that buff to also affect our current pet.

If it is not set up that way it will be very bad to have to dismiss your pet (wich is either a tank or a large source of ur DPS) at cost only to use the new JA, then after the animation recall your permanent pet (who will now be behind the hate curve if it was being used as a tank). Especially if this is a reasonable recast ability.



If you are looking for more ideas for abilities the bst forums is mostly full of useful ideas based around functional problems of the class.
Short list is:
Bring charm back
Allow pet TP moves to chain with at least the master if not everyone.
Allow pet jugs and items to bundle or 99stack
Stock more selections in the NPC shops
Allow jug pets to zone.
Make the pet "fight" exclusively what you tell it to fight.
Allow pet to maintain its own claim as it is a seperate entity (1 claim for master + 1 claim for pet)
Carefully consider final lvl 99 jug pet availability and selection.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

For those who don't play bst and those who seem to not know otehrwise. Spur is nothing like mediate, it adds a store TP effect to your pet and is an amazing ability.
As for the coaxing, that is most diffinitively charm based. As for jugs, there's will obviously be more when the level increases.
I also look forward to bst astral flow.
And the 99 jug? I still think it'll be a cactaur. lol

[Zaknafein]

Personally I would like to see a jug pet for Bst that is completely exclusive. By that I mean a new model of monster not seen anywhere in the game except when a Bst calls it into existence. Please incorporate at least one (several hopefully:) for 99 end game. TY

[Gotterdammerung]

For those who don't play bst and those who seem to not know otehrwise. Spur is nothing like mediate, it adds a store TP effect to your pet and is an amazing ability.
It was a loose comparison for laymen. And it is hardly "amazing".


As for the coaxing, that is most diffinitively charm based. As for jugs, there's will obviously be more when the level increases. lol
Oh, I didn't know you worked for Square Enix as a developer.

[Areola]

If you are looking for more ideas for abilities the bst forums is mostly full of useful ideas based around functional problems of the class.
Short list is:
Bring charm back
Allow pet TP moves to chain with at least the master if not everyone.
Allow pet jugs and items to bundle or 99stack
Stock more selections in the NPC shops
Allow jug pets to zone.
Make the pet "fight" exclusively what you tell it to fight.
Allow pet to maintain its own claim as it is a seperate entity (1 claim for master + 1 claim for pet)
Carefully consider final lvl 99 jug pet availability and selection.

lol i think you just summed up everything in the bst forums with that part

[Xilk]

I find spur to be useful.. It guarentee's that I get tp when I can finally use the ability.. but yeah I also see the point about reducing ready/sic recast timer, or better yet, removing it. That is needed to make this really useful... Let tp be the limiting factor, not dual limiting factors.

As far as adding more abilities that help the party, thats all cool. It sounds like party-wide buffs instead of just pet specific buffs. It all depends on what abilities are added, and how potent they are. Pet abilities are hit and miss for their usefulness. I can't think of many off the top of my head that would really help the whole party...

I'm not thrilled w/ astral flow for bst... it could be really good, but the idea itself doesn't thrill me.

[Sortis]

I pretty much agree with everything the OP has said, nothing more to add than that, just making sure they understand this is how yet another BST wants things going

[Gotterdammerung]

I find spur to be useful.. It guarentee's that I get tp when I can finally use the ability

Dipper Yuly on average will get 17 swings in one minute. This is enough for him to reach 100% in the time it takes to get a charge. This is without pet haste 9% from gear wich would be 19 swings per minute.

Spur adds store tp 20 and store tp 50 with emp feet.
for 1 minute

The effect this has on dipper is
tp return= 6.1 (a 17 hit build) 103.7 tp on average in a minute

tp return with spur 20 stp= 7.3 (a 13 hit build) 124.1 tp on average in a minute (20.4 extra tp from the skill)

tp return with apur 50 stp because of emp boots= 9.1 (an 11 hit build) 154.7 tp on average in a minute (51 extra tp)

*my earlier comments were based on the results of the ability without emp +2 feet, I feel an ability shouldn't need a piece of gear to become worthwhile. It should stand on its own, and the gear should be ice cream.

So to be more specific, Spur WILL increase the speed at wich your pet gets TP. But as anyone knows, the value of an X-hit build is the increase to WS FREQUENCY. And since a pets WS FREQUENCY is locked in by a CHARGE TIMER
AND since a pet can reach 100 TP every minute WITHOUT augmentation, Spur does NOT increase WS frequency.
Wich means it can only be used in 2 ways.
#1 to increase the potency of the pet WS. (i.e. more tp when u use the sic/ready is supposed to mean more effect.)
However, there are very very few pet WS's that show drasticly different results when used at higher TP. So this particular use is very meh.

#2 to do 2 WS's in rapid succession for some tactical reason. (like hitting ironclad smiter with 2 footkicks while he is slashing weakness, instead of just the one.) However, there are very few of these times.

Ultimately, the true test of an ability is comparing results. I personally try to perform these tests casually as i solo NMs.
I fight it sometimes with using spur every time its up and using ready any time its up. Then record the time it takes to complete the solo. Then i solo it a few more times NEVER using spur, and using ready every time its up. Then i record that time. And i compare. From my experience, I have noticed that spur has almost no effect on the speed of your kill.

That is why i deemed it "mostly useless" in my OP. And notice i said "Mostly". I didnt say competely useless.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

It was a loose comparison for laymen. And it is hardly "amazing".It is amazing and your comparison is extremely missleading as you would gain no TP while idle like meditate would.

[Gotterdammerung]

your comparison is extremely missleading as you would gain no TP while idle like meditate would.

That's why i went ahead and clarified in my last post. I didn't want to spend a whole lot of time typing out the exact parameters of spur just to make a quick point that it isn't very useful. So i used a quick loose comparison. I'm sorry that it was an inadequate comparison. I have Since gone back and written the long explanation of why spur is mostly useless. Its the post right above your post.


Usually, using spur will not result in a faster kill speed against a bst who does not use spur.

I'm not dogging spur.

I'm not complaining about spur.

I don't care what they do to spur.

I am only pointing out that the NEW pet commands should actually be useful. We don't need another pet command like spur. Look at every other pet command.

Fight- cant live without it

heel- must have it

Stay- incredibly useful

Sic/ready- Versatile skill with lots of useful tricks

Leave- Useful

Snarl- invaluable incredible wonderful

Spur- barely worth having

I'm saying i hope the pet commands that come next will be like the predecessors to spur.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

You're campairing basic commands to additional ones. Can't live without fight? Must have heal and stay? lol That's the basic structure of the job. That's like saying you can live without warcry on warrior, but /attack is the greatest feature of the job ever. And snarl will kill the mob faster then the bst who doesn't use it as you will then be using sic/ready sooner, which means you can use it again sooner. I'm not saying that they new JA's coming should suck, but I am saying that spur is one of the more usefull abilities.

[Gotterdammerung]

If heel is a basic command, then why do you have to wait til lvl 10 to get it?
You don't know what you are talking about.

Also, Pet Ws's are regulated by charge timers. It doesn't matter how fast your pet TP's because once he is out of charges he can't WS again until he gets a charge. Since a normal pet can easily get 100% tp in the time it takes to get 1 charge, store tp has little effect on pet performance. I have personally done tests to see if using spur lowers solo times, and it does not.


You state that "spur is one of the more useful abilities"
ok then, what is it MORE useful than? Name 1 pet command that is less useful than spur.


P.S. I'm pretty sure you just like to argue.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I like semantics more. ^^

I myself have always seen stay as rather valueless.

[Gotterdammerung]

i use stay constantly.

The hhp increase is enormous so its a great way to save on pet food in between fights. Doesn't take very long at all for pet to regen to 100% while in stay.

I also use it for positioning often.

And i even use it when i am camping versus other people. If i invis its harder for the competition to key in off my movements but the pet stays visible. So i often stay him/her around a corner out of sight but close. Then i am free to camp invisibly. Sometimes the other people don't even know im there until i get the claim.

[Lordscyon]

they should give us a job trait that gives us beast an avantage on charming slimes!
Bring back old memories when at times slimes coulnd't be charm too save your A$$ from a imp chasing you!

[Zaknafein]

i use stay constantly.

The hhp increase is enormous so its a great way to save on pet food in between fights. Doesn't take very long at all for pet to regen to 100% while in stay.

I also use it for positioning often.

And i even use it when i am camping versus other people. If i invis its harder for the competition to key in off my movements but the pet stays visible. So i often stay him/her around a corner out of sight but close. Then i am free to camp invisibly. Sometimes the other people don't even know im there until i get the claim.

I would listen to this guy. He knows his Bst ***. Everything he points out makes sense. TY also btw for the cloudsplitter atma/JA advice. Brewed 2 shins tonight, and I saw a 120% increase in my WS damage :)

[Gotterdammerung]

I would listen to this guy. He knows his Bst ***. Everything he points out makes sense. TY also btw for the cloudsplitter atma/JA advice. Brewed 2 shins tonight, and I saw a 120% increase in my WS damage :)

Shin shin is not a member of the dragon family despite his appearance and name. So if u were using the /sub trick i told you about, it didn't work on him. The boost you were seeing was probably just from the switch in atma's. Wait til you brew on something you actually can get a killer trait for.

And thanks for the support/ vote of confidence.

[Caketime]

I like semantics more. ^^

I myself have always seen stay as rather valueless.

Clearly you have never played the job.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Clearly you have never played the job.Clearly...

[Caketime]

No, I didn't bother to check your profile. Not going to waste my time.

[Granny]

SE request that I would like to make for beastmaster is a job ability to make a jug pet(charmed monster would be nice too) spawn or just become a few levels higher. Or would be kinda cool if that was even a job trait for higher lvls, which would make jug pets a tad more viable.

Also as many have said, make all jug pets and pet food sold by several, conviently placed npc's for reasonable prices.

Give bsts more high level charmable monsters in areas with purpose and ability to be used in new content and in fights like voidwatch.

[Camate]

Beastmaster feedback!

Grab Kodo and Podo to read over these updates with you!


I would like the amount of charges that get expended reduced.

We’ll look into this when we review the overall pet system. We plan to adjust imbalances between the effect and the amount of necessary charges.


I would like pets’ special abilities to be performed by either charge only or TP only.

TP is necessary to perform any ability, and the charge is necessary to choose the type of ability that is used. If the requirements for the ability are removed, the abilities themselves would be restricted as well, so it would be better to revise the required amount of charges, instead of simply removing requirements.



I would like to use Sic to command my pet to use a special ability when it wants to, and Ready to command my pet to use a special ability immediately.

This is an interesting idea. This could only be used for called beasts, but we will look into this. As a warning, developing and implementing this feature will probably take a very long time.


I would like the recast timer for Ready to be shortened.

We will look into this when we review merit point adjustments.


I would like to be able to use charm even when I already have a pet.

From a development standpoint, this is possible if we spend some time on it. However, for balancing reasons, we do not plan on making this possible.


When battling multiple monsters, I want my pet to only attack monsters I have commanded it to fight.

Although they react to commands, pets are beasts, so we would like to maintain their instincts, but we will look into your suggestion.


I want a new ability that intimidates monsters.
(Chance of intimidation correlates to the pet’s level)

I like that this captures the essence of the beastmaster. This will also enhance killer type effects, so this is a valuable suggestion.


I would like high level plantoid called beasts to be strengthened.

We will look into this when reviewing pets. They have some decent special abilities, so we would like to increase their accessibility.


I want to be able to skillchain with pets.

We have discussed this before in the new spell thread, but due to current settings, if pets are able to skillchain, monsters will be able to skillchain as well. This would be interesting, but the balance of battles would be changed drastically, so this would be difficult.


I would like the strength of called beasts under level 75 to be reviewed.

We would like to perform these adjustments one at a time, but since there are a large number of issues to review, it will take a long time to address them all.


I would like pets that use blunt/piercing attacks to be added.

We will consider this when adding unique characteristics for each pet.



I want the maximum number of stacks for call beast items/petfood changed from 12 to 99.

Considering the balance between the cost of synthesis/synergy and the pet’s stats/amount of HP recovered from food, we think that being able to stack 12 is appropriate.



I would like the amount of HP recovered from pet food to depend on the beastmaster’s charisma.

Actually, the amount of HP recovered from pet food is affected by stats, but charisma having an added effect is unique to beastmasters, so we would like to work towards implementing it.


I would like my pet to fully recover (Full HP/300TP/ status ailments cured/recast time for call beast reset) when using familiar.

This is a good suggestion for when you get stuck in a bind. The details of what type of effects we can implement will be discussed, but we will look into this idea.

[Ketaru]

As much as I appreciate any new information, I'm sorry to say I'm disappointed that there were no specifics given about how exactly the development team wants to transition BST into a group setting.

What of the unique abilities pets will be able to use to aid party members? Are there any plans to increase the accuracy/effectiveness of some of the added effects that pets have like Accuracy Down, Attack Down, or Sleep?

[SpankWustler]

I like the idea of increased intimidation, after all, the sight of me with my ferret hanging out of my loincloth is truly horrifying.

Still, I was really curious about the one-use pets and hoping to hear more about that. Any chance of digging up more information about that?

[Soundwave]

It's raining updates today.

[Kari]

I'll never understand why BSTs Ready/Sic moves are so extremely limited.
You need TP, and charges available. However I've never seen a Ready/Sic ability do any significant damage when fighting mobs appropriate for your level.
As an addition to what was suggested, you should remove the requirements, or actually make the abilities worth the time it takes to build TP and such.

And as the above poster said, would really like to see BST become worthwhile in parties.

[Ketaru]

I'll never understand why BSTs Ready/Sic moves are so extremely limited.
You need TP, and charges available. However I've never seen a Ready/Sic ability do any significant damage when fighting mobs appropriate for your level.
As an addition to what was suggested, you should remove the requirements, or actually make the abilities worth the time it takes to build TP and such.

And as the above poster said, would really like to see BST become worthwhile in parties.

Not just regular parties either, but the purpose of the manifesto was to discuss how they were going to bring jobs to the endgame scene. In the entire history of the game, BST has never been desired for endgame except in highly tailored situations (IE, all pet LSs). And as I expressed in another thread, I am so tired of our job being characterized in terms of inefficiency and inconvenience by other jobs.

[Bigboy]

I want the maximum number of stacks for call beast items/petfood changed from 12 to 99.
Considering the balance between the cost of synthesis/synergy and the pet’s stats/amount of HP recovered from food, we think that being able to stack 12 is appropriate.

I'm inclined to say we want them to stack higher just because we don't want our 10 stacks of pet food to take up 10 spaces, not because we want the amount crafted at a particular time increased. Balance aside, I think this is more an inventory issue.

[Xilk]

I wrote a huge long reply to this refreshing update regarding job adjustments... then when I tried to post, server maintenance occured and I completely lost my post.

I don't want to rewrite everthing.... I'll just say I'm looking forward to seeing how the adjustments turn out.

I hope the merit abilites will be updated. (Killer instinct, killer effects, feral howl)
I'm interested in seeing a review of ready charge recast. the tp vs countdown timer really seems to make several abilities not useful.
I"m looking forward to and update to familiar. having a useful IT pet for 30 min was awesome, but the utility for jug pets was not very helpful (10% max hp + is.. mediocre). Perhaps the monster reorginazation going on will help familiar become more useful. However, if familiar gave player stat related buffs to pet, or unlocking special pet abilities would be useful/fun/interesting also.

The most interesting idea to me is pet skillchains. I think it would be very cool if all mobs could skillchain as well.

[Kraggy]

Why would a BST want to party, there are what, 16 other jobs for those who want to socialise? I play BST to avoid groups, the job doesn't need group-only useful skills.

[Xilk]

Why would a BST want to party, there are what, 16 other jobs for those who want to socialise? I play BST to avoid groups, the job doesn't need group-only useful skills.

Wanting to party or not is about the player, not the character/job.

[Aldersyde]

Considering the balance between the cost of synthesis/synergy and the pet’s stats/amount of HP recovered from food, we think that being able to stack 12 is appropriate.


Well, can we at least have a quiver or toolbag equivalent? Carrying around 10 stacks of pet food is an inventory issue. Call it a sack or something, I don't care. Or is this going to be impossible because pet food doesn't stack to 99?

Throw us a bone here. It's not like our once primary ability, you know charm, is even relevant anymore (seeing as Abyssea is 95% of the game's content and everything there can't be charmed). Keeping jugs alive with pet food is pretty much all we've got. Stop making us fill our inventory with pet food.

Sorry to be snarky but man...reading this manifesto on bst doesn't really fill me with hope for the future of the job.

More pdt- or even better, mdt-, would be good for pets as well. I hope there's plans for more to get added. Allowing stout servant to get meritted to improve the damage taken decrease would be great as well.

[Juilan]

I'd like to chain with a charmed monster at level 90 ~ 95. These jugs make me feel like its a PUP or a SMN that i have to pay to use.

[Gaiben]

We have discussed this before in the new spell thread, but due to current settings, if pets are able to skillchain, monsters will be able to skillchain as well. This would be interesting, but the balance of battles would be changed drastically, so this would be difficult.

I always thought that the only reason why monsters didn't skillchain was because they lacked a party and didn't use job abilities. They are feral creatures so I understand lacking those qualities. Guess humanoids/beastmen are different because I have had a fomor pull off two WS in succession on me before to pull off a skillchain. It wiped my face off, but since it was a fusion I wonder if I was the tank and somehow lived if a cure spell would magic burst when healing me.

[heartslaught]

Two words that if implemented, would make every bst squeal in joy.

BIRD PET!

That is all.

[Caketime]

Why would a BST want to party, there are what, 16 other jobs for those who want to socialise? I play BST to avoid groups, the job doesn't need group-only useful skills.

Apparently we don't have a choice in this matter, SE is going to drag us to parties by our hair kicking and screaming. The joke will be on them when nobody invites us because we're BST. Let's save the "told ya so!" for then.

Any number of Adjustments won't change anything, even if we get a neat group ability it's going to be on a 5 minute timer, and we'll still have to form groups with other BST to do content or switch to another job entirely for it just like before. Silly SE, you can't design a job around being a lone wolf for nearly a decade then expect your playerbase to accept said job into their strategic planning because you gave it a shiny new toy. That's almost as absurd as expecting us to work together, and take turns, or even be polite to one another.

[Sparthos]

You make it seem like its so difficult to give BST a slot in a party scenario or that it's hard for the class to be party-oriented while having solo options at the same time. Guess what? NIN, DNC, BLU, RDM, THF can all find themselves in parties and are also capable of solo.

The main problem seems to be the few BST that still put up with the class want it to be a soloer when that niche has already been surpassed by a number of classes.

SE has already made stronger jug pets which solved the problem of BST being unable to find suitable pets for a BCNM or other endgame events. People cry that Charm is the primary JA on BST yet no matter how much SE buffed it, the tactic is limited to what monsters you can use around you and that spells disaster given the track record of endgame events.

Last I checked Voidwatch and Walk of Echoes (the content being billed as 95 worthy) are either surrounded by weak lowbie mobs or have no monsters around to charm. It's obvious the best way to deal with this problem is to buff the Beastmaster itself (more jug pets) instead of relying on whatever you can happen to grab around you.

No one wants to wait 5mins for a BST to trek halfway across the zone to grab a bat in order to start the endgame run.

It's no surprise many of the main issues with BST were skipped over with these notes either. Instead of reviewing charges, how about buffing some of the crappy ready abilities? These are supposed to be equivalent to weaponskills for the pet yet most do garbage for damage.

How about the lack of greater mobs in the selection of jugpets? Why is this?
Is it really that insane for a Beastmaster to control monsters like a Goobbue, Ochu, Rocs, Sandworm among others? SE has already scaled the size of large model monsters down so it isn't a case of "these mobs will be too large".

A casting pet? Will BST ever gets a hecteyes?

The upcoming effects that allow pets to buff party members - what will they be?
Will this be Avatar's Favor II where your pet becomes weaker to put up some crappy buffs or will these support abilities be passive in nature.

Will there ever be a way for BST to give a jugpet haste/att/acc/crit hit rate through a JA?
BST is already underequipped to enhance his/her pet so these tools would give the pet some power it desperately needs.

Will Pet Roboronts/Poultices ever be split from the Reward timer?
Healing the pet is usually the primary reason a BST will use reward yet these items to cure status effects or apply a regen effect are nigh useless when the timer is locked down. Dawn Mulsum already heals off the reward timer so why haven't these items been simply made target -> use items?

[Caketime]

You make it seem like its so difficult to give BST a slot in a party scenario or that it's hard for the class to be party-oriented while having solo options at the same time. Guess what? NIN, DNC, BLU, RDM, THF can all find themselves in parties and are also capable of solo.

I'd also find myself in a group much faster with any of those jobs than I would BST. What a humorous coincidence.

[Aldersyde]

[QUOTE=Sparthos;171537] SE has already made stronger jug pets which solved the problem of BST being unable to find suitable pets for a BCNM or other endgame events. People cry that Charm is the primary JA on BST yet no matter how much SE buffed it, the tactic is limited to what monsters you can use around you and that spells disaster given the track record of endgame events.

Last I checked Voidwatch and Walk of Echoes (the content being billed as 95 worthy) are either surrounded by weak lowbie mobs or have no monsters around to charm. It's obvious the best way to deal with this problem is to buff the Beastmaster itself (more jug pets) instead of relying on whatever you can happen to grab around you.

No one wants to wait 5mins for a BST to trek halfway across the zone to grab a bat in order to start the endgame run.

What you say about jugpets as regards endgame activities is true and I'm happy that they added these sturdier, harder hitting jugs. The issue for is they didn't have to do it at the complete expense of the leveling experience. Pet swapping was always a legitimate method of xping for bsts. There are tons of mobs inside Abyssea that xp alliances won't touch and so many camps are just untouched. Bsts would make use of these spaces if the mobs were able to be charmed.

Yes, I know there's more efficient ways to xp now. Still, I think there's good amount of bsts that would yearn for the old school experience we grew up with. Plus, it would be nice to do something in Abyssea where I didn't necessarily have to use a jug for or fill my inventory with (both jugs and food) or use regen and pdt- atmas just to keep pets alive longer.

I know people will say "SE doesn't want bst to solo nms by throwing natural pets at them". Most bsts can solo nms with jugs (just takes a long time and patience; 2-3 bsts with jugs tear most nms up). People who are inclined to solo will find a way anyway. Why punish the xp aspect?Abyssea is supposed to be the premier xp area and it's silly that other jobs have gotten all sorts of new, cool abilities while bst's defining one was made useless.

If its a mechanics issue I can accept that but it would be nice to have SE come out on the issue and tell us why charm is ineffectual inside Abyssea instead of just ignoring us with a wall of silence.


How about the lack of greater mobs in the selection of jugpets? Why is this?
Is it really that insane for a Beastmaster to control monsters like a Goobbue, Ochu, Rocs, Sandworm among others? SE has already scaled the size of large model monsters down so it isn't a case of "these mobs will be too large".

I agree with this for the reason that at max level, all jobs should access to abilities they've never had before. In bst's case, it will just be an ability that they did have at one time but was taken away. The jugs for 90+ should be unique and jugs we've never had before. No friggin crabs, no beetles, no rehashes of useless cactuar mobs (3 charges for 1000 points of damage is garbage). A monkey would be nice as it was part of the AF quest line. And big mobs of course.


Will there ever be a way for BST to give a jugpet haste/att/acc/crit hit rate through a JA?
BST is already underequipped to enhance his/her pet so these tools would give the pet some power it desperately needs.

Agreed. An even better start would be to restore the att/acc/haste bonus that killer effects originally had rather than the paralyze effect they have now.

Lol, I'd actually want to see a type of "dual" Call Beast like campaign mobs have for a two hour. Campaign generals can already do it and I don't really see how it could be that overpowered a two hour timer. Frankly, at 99, there should be abilities that are blatantly overpowered. Not just for bst but for every job. A ten year journey should have a reward like that.

I know they'll never implement the "Dual Jug" ability but a man can dream.

[Horadrim]

You make it seem like its so difficult to give BST a slot in a party scenario or that it's hard for the class to be party-oriented while having solo options at the same time. Guess what? NIN, DNC, BLU, RDM, THF can all find themselves in parties and are also capable of solo.

The main problem seems to be the few BST that still put up with the class want it to be a soloer when that niche has already been surpassed by a number of classes.

SE has already made stronger jug pets which solved the problem of BST being unable to find suitable pets for a BCNM or other endgame events. People cry that Charm is the primary JA on BST yet no matter how much SE buffed it, the tactic is limited to what monsters you can use around you and that spells disaster given the track record of endgame events.

Last I checked Voidwatch and Walk of Echoes (the content being billed as 95 worthy) are either surrounded by weak lowbie mobs or have no monsters around to charm. It's obvious the best way to deal with this problem is to buff the Beastmaster itself (more jug pets) instead of relying on whatever you can happen to grab around you.

No one wants to wait 5mins for a BST to trek halfway across the zone to grab a bat in order to start the endgame run.

It's no surprise many of the main issues with BST were skipped over with these notes either. Instead of reviewing charges, how about buffing some of the crappy ready abilities? These are supposed to be equivalent to weaponskills for the pet yet most do garbage for damage.

How about the lack of greater mobs in the selection of jugpets? Why is this?
Is it really that insane for a Beastmaster to control monsters like a Goobbue, Ochu, Rocs, Sandworm among others? SE has already scaled the size of large model monsters down so it isn't a case of "these mobs will be too large".

A casting pet? Will BST ever gets a hecteyes?

The upcoming effects that allow pets to buff party members - what will they be?
Will this be Avatar's Favor II where your pet becomes weaker to put up some crappy buffs or will these support abilities be passive in nature.

Will there ever be a way for BST to give a jugpet haste/att/acc/crit hit rate through a JA?
BST is already underequipped to enhance his/her pet so these tools would give the pet some power it desperately needs.

Will Pet Roboronts/Poultices ever be split from the Reward timer?
Healing the pet is usually the primary reason a BST will use reward yet these items to cure status effects or apply a regen effect are nigh useless when the timer is locked down. Dawn Mulsum already heals off the reward timer so why haven't these items been simply made target -> use items?

While I agree with most of this, I have my extreme doubts a casting pet will ever be added, because that infringes on PUP territory. Be hussy and say "screw PUP" or anything you want like that, but the job has specific talents and uses, and SE isn't going to haphazardly cross into PUP's domain and go "haha, sucks to be you" -- especially considering the job is already suffering way worse than BST is.


Apparently we don't have a choice in this matter, SE is going to drag us to parties by our hair kicking and screaming. The joke will be on them when nobody invites us because we're BST. Let's save the "told ya so!" for then.

Any number of Adjustments won't change anything, even if we get a neat group ability it's going to be on a 5 minute timer, and we'll still have to form groups with other BST to do content or switch to another job entirely for it just like before. Silly SE, you can't design a job around being a lone wolf for nearly a decade then expect your playerbase to accept said job into their strategic planning because you gave it a shiny new toy. That's almost as absurd as expecting us to work together, and take turns, or even be polite to one another.

If they changed Feral Howl so that it had a similar recharge time to Stun and worked with like 70% of the time or with high efficiency against stun resistant mobs we'd instantly be desired for things...

[Sparthos]

I'd also find myself in a group much faster with any of those jobs than I would BST. What a humorous coincidence.

There is a reason no one wants BST in parties: The job has very little going for it.

I have no choice but to lay some of this blame on SE for having no idea what to do with BST all these years and on the individuals who continuously and relentlessly tout this idea of "dont touch my solo class SE! It's a lone wolf!".

Perhaps in the dark ages of CoP BST was a "solo class" and I do remember those petburned Tiamats when normal groups could barely keep up but XI has changed and continues to change. EXP is trivial now and so the old way of EXPing BST falls in favor of quick and dirty Abyssea parties. The new jug pets are strong enough to solo the NMs that used to require charm 'n swarm tactics as well.

This leaves us with party content and a gaping hole where a party role should be. The sooner SE addresses the real problems with BST, the sooner people would accept its presence in a party.

[Aldersyde]

There is a reason no one wants BST in parties: The job has very little going for it.

I have no choice but to lay some of this blame on SE for having no idea what to do with BST all these years and on the individuals who continuously and relentlessly tout this idea of "dont touch my solo class SE! It's a lone wolf!".

Perhaps in the dark ages of CoP BST was a "solo class" and I do remember those petburned Tiamats when normal groups could barely keep up but XI has changed and continues to change. EXP is trivial now and so the old way of EXPing BST falls in favor of quick and dirty Abyssea parties. The new jug pets are strong enough to solo the NMs that used to require charm 'n swarm tactics as well.

This leaves us with party content and a gaping hole where a party role should be. The sooner SE addresses the real problems with BST, the sooner people would accept its presence in a party.

I could get behind a bst class that is geared towards a party role with buffing abilities from pets but SE has to understand that if this is the way they want bst to go, they will have to be significant buffs (on the same level as cor rolls and brd songs, SOME avatar favors) or unique ones which offer buffs no other support class has (critical hit damage +, quadruple attack, magic crit + that i can name at the top of my head). If they aren't, it won't help bst get into parties for end game events (I assume that you are talking about their effectiveness in endgame situations) and will be a waste of effort. Given that bst has never been thrown in the support role in FFXI, I really can't see how they can do it now without stepping on a lot of toes...because once bst gets something unique or have the ability to buff as effectively as cor, brds, smns, and rdms, they'll be clamoring for adjustments to their melee abilities or whatever.

Honestly, it's more reasonable to buff bst's melee abilities (at the very least improve cloudsplitter) or like you said earlier, make pet ws do significant spike damage. Most players still can't get over big number syndrome and can't seem to add a pet's damage to the master's to make a fair assessment of the class (that's not to say that bst isn't behind). Showing the player base that bst can throw out some omgwtfnumbers would at least get them out on the field. Given the manifesto, I'm not really hopeful for this either. SE seems to find any improvement to bst a threat to game balance or too hard to implement.

[Ketaru]

Why would a BST want to party, there are what, 16 other jobs for those who want to socialise? I play BST to avoid groups, the job doesn't need group-only useful skills.

I'll accept BST as a soloist-only job that has no place in groups when I can solo Pantokrator...without a brew.

[Gotterdammerung]

Im confused where half of these suggestions/ inquiries came from.

I also am a little confused about this attitude of pets being monsters so they should be treated as monsters are treated.

I always figured this was the way it worked personally.

But very recently you have added rules that apply to pets exclusively separating them from monsters.

You say that "if pets can skill chain with people then monsters will be able to skill chain with monsters."

This statement implies that EVERY rule a pet follows is EQUAL to the rules monsters follow.

Yet we know this is not the case. Because pets have a DT cap of 87.5% and monsters do not.

By adding this cap you have created a new category. There is People, Pets and monsters.

Unless u add a 87.5% DT cap to monsters, you can't state that a pet follows the same rules as a monster.

This therefore means you can allow "fight" to lock a pet on 1 monster, and you can allow pets to skillchain. And many other various changes to the rules that apply to pets.




Next issue,


TP is necessary to perform any ability, and the charge is necessary to choose the type of ability that is used. If the requirements for the ability are removed, the abilities themselves would be restricted as well, so it would be better to revise the required amount of charges, instead of simply removing requirements.



Why is a charge necessary to choose the type of ability? That doesnt make any sense. Players choose there weaponskills all the time without charges. I dont see why anyone would think that being able to WS when you have TP is somehow unbalanced. Its not like Pet WS's are OUTRAGEOUSLY STRONG, there not...
I mean if your gunna leave these things on charges forcing us to tp our pets at a outrageously slow frequency and then continue to pour salt on the wound by releasing pet Store TP gear and JA's, THEN at LEAST make the pet WS's strong.



Next,
If you think 12 stack pet food and 12 stack jugs is appropriate then u obviously have never actually spent any time playing the class. It is terribly space inhibiting.


Next,

If your adding chr to reward formulas as well as mind, my opinion is "thats unbalanced."

If your replacing mind with chr for reward formulas... my opinion is " I hate you for continually making gear i worked hard for worthless."

Next

I like the idea of strengthening the weaker high lvl jugs and i hope you put some massive thought into the final lvl 99 roster of jug pets (not just AVAILABLE, but VIABLE). The more selection you leave us with, the more charismatic and dynamic the job will be.

Next

I like familiar change and suggested sumthin similar myself. I had suggested it keep its normal effect + add full hp reset charges and 300% tp. But full hp 300 tp with reset charges cured staatus and reset timer is cool. But please keep the boost to pet offense of current familiar, its so tiny u can sneak it in im sure.


In closing, i would like you to address the questions raised in the OP.

<3xOxOxOx<3~Gotterdammerung~<3xOxOxOx<3

Thanks

[Xilk]

BTW, you can't charm stuff in voidwatch. I tried, I got ejected from the voidwatch battle, and no, I was not too far away.

Also, I'm better the pet damage reduction cap is not added to the mobs, but added to the pets individually. The same technique would probably not work for skillchains because its at a different part of the programming. Its not a trait of the mob, its the functionality of all mobs.

[Caketime]

There is a reason no one wants BST in parties: The job has very little going for it.

That was my entire point, Bobby.

[Gotterdammerung]

Also, I'm bet the pet damage reduction cap is not added to the mobs, but added to the pets individually. The same technique would probably not work for skillchains because its at a different part of the programming. Its not a trait of the mob, its the functionality of all mobs.

It had to be added in later because being uncapped is part of being a monster. Monsters arent capped in any area we have plenty of NMs that show examples of this, and on top of that we have them saying "pets are monsters" and at one time we were able to bring pets to a 100% stat. Put those 2 together and we have a defined function of a monster

Monsters do not have caps.

By adding in a Pet DT cap you have now knocked it out of the monster category because it no longer meets the criteria for being a monster.


It might sound like im arguing against the DT cap. IM NOT. We have alredy had that battle and lost.

Im pointing out that SE cant use the excuse "pets are monsters so if we change this about pets we have to change it about all monsters" argument anymore. They have already showed us that when they want to they can seperate the rules that govern monsters and the rules that govern pets. So there is no reason they cant fix the targeting issue of "fight" (for god sakes its an ability that tells the monster attack THIS target, then the pet proceeds to ignore you) And there is no reason they cant allow pets to skillchain with everyone (or at least the master).

Personally, I would rather they just man up and say "we dont want to do it." Or "its too much work so no thanks" or just plain "no."

I find the current flawed logic they have thrown at us a little annoying.

[Gotterdammerung]

There is a reason no one wants BST in parties: The job has very little going for it.

I have no choice but to lay some of this blame on SE for having no idea what to do with BST all these years and on the individuals who continuously and relentlessly tout this idea of "dont touch my solo class SE! It's a lone wolf!".

Perhaps in the dark ages of CoP BST was a "solo class" and I do remember those petburned Tiamats when normal groups could barely keep up but XI has changed and continues to change. EXP is trivial now and so the old way of EXPing BST falls in favor of quick and dirty Abyssea parties. The new jug pets are strong enough to solo the NMs that used to require charm 'n swarm tactics as well.

This leaves us with party content and a gaping hole where a party role should be. The sooner SE addresses the real problems with BST, the sooner people would accept its presence in a party.

People are largely Sheople. When you play a job that isn't on the bandwagon list, its up to you to convince the general masses that you are worth your salt. I have no problems whatsoever keeping up with top DD's while im on bst. And yes there are situations where I don't do the MOST damage. But there ARE situations where i DO the most damage. And I hold my own. And i prove my worth, every time.

There are many reasons people generally dislike bst.

#1 There is left over prejudice from the old exp theft days.

#2 A lot of slackers showed up to events/parties in full AF1 or the current equivalent cheap gear mixed with perle.

#3 Its a hard job to play and takes real skill to eek out the maximum potential, which means

A) there are a lot of beasts who just don't make the grade.

B) People try to play it and quit because its too hard which leads to a general misunderstanding of the jobs full potential.
Example: I very recently had to explain to a blm that they needed to stop sleeping the links i bring back from the NM pull because i had planned to depop them by releasing my pet and when he sleeps them i can't depop them anymore wich means we have to fight them when they wake up. This is not the only example, there are plenty of wonderful useful tricks bst can do, and the majority of players don't even know.

#4 It rarely does the MOST damage even though it still does great damage. And to get it to do the MOST dmg, takes a great level of dedication to gear and a great amount of player skill. There are many people who play these games with low self-esteem desperate for some sense of accomplishment in their lives. Those people are drawn to classes that do the DEFINITIVE most damage and if the class is so easy to play a baby could do it, well then thats a plus. As a result bst is not a popular choice. (This is also the same reason that there arent many galka's and tere is a buttload of mithra's. Playing a sexy avatar makes these types of people feel good about themselves.)

[Camate]

We’d like to introduce some of the job adjustments planned for the upcoming version update.

Run Wild* Lv93
Enhances summoned pet. However, the pet will disappear when the effect is removed or wears off.

New Call Beast pets will be added.

With that in mind, we are planning to introduce the two species below as pets!

437436


Oh yeah...one more thing.
Now this is me talking about the future, but we have had a lot of request to use HNM monsters and have bird-type pets, so we are thinking it might be about to time to add these monsters to the arsenal of Call Beast:




(*Please note that names and descriptions are under development and are subject to change.)
*Updated with in-development terminology at 7:24pm PDT

[Karbuncle]

First off: Yay a new Tiger pet, and a Smilie no less.

Second: A HNM Pet? I think thats epic.

Thirdly: WHY YOU NO LIKE MY http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4500-Personal-Beast-Pet!-%28Give-it-a-Read!-You-might-like-it%29

fourthy: Yay a Bird Type to complete our Food chain

fifhtly: Yay Zerg-Rush Pet Job Ability

Sixthly: How did i miss this?

[SpankWustler]

Rouse sounds like an excellent tool for situations where Beast Master can currently fall short. I'm sure some people will complain because it isn't useful for spending upwards of 10 minutes to solo a minor NM in Abyssea while proccing nothing, but it's an ability so it's not like that feature of the job will be diminished.

I have worries at the back of my mind about the potency and duration, but the general idea sounds great.

I look forward to finally having any kind of bird-type jug pet, even if it's not coming in the immediate update. I actually prefer the Apkallu to the Colibri, since Colibri seem to have TP moves geared towards annoying players rather than murderating monsters.

[Karbuncle]

On the TP moves of Colibri, same could be said for Slimes.. with their Encumbrance TP moves and such.

However with the Zerg Ability, I'm a bit worried it'll be limited to true zerg fights (1 fight > done), otherwise if the duration is short it'll just be pi**ing money, as the jug immediately desummons when its effect wears off... so, /giltoss lol

[SpankWustler]

On the TP moves of Colibri, same could be said for Slimes.. with their Encumbrance TP moves and such.

However with the Zerg Ability, I'm a bit worried it'll be limited to true zerg fights (1 fight > done), otherwise if the duration is short it'll just be pi**ing money, as the jug immediately desummons when its effect wears off... so, /giltoss lol

True, slug TP moves are far more potent on players than they will be on anything else. Still, there's a Defense Down ability in the mix and one that adds gravity as well. I think they would still be the best enfeebling jug pet the job has seen so far, even given that monsters don't wear pants.

If the duration is one minute or something, I'd want the job ability to fill my pet with such rage that it could be Starcade playing FFXI. Even then, it seems like it would be useful outside of zergs if you knew the pet would die within a minute anyway. I'm hoping for a five or ten minute duration and less insane effects, though.

[Sparthos]

Keep the Apkallu plan and ditch the Colibri. Apkallu have far more damaging TP moves and an AOE gaze sleep.

The new JA looks neat but we'll have to see what the recast and durations look like because outside of a zerg losing the pet repeatedly could be harsh if it doesnt line back up with Call Beast.

[Kensagaku]

:D This looks awesome! I'm so looking forward to it.

First off, tiger/slug pets can be interesting, especially with all the debuffs the latter can offer. Attack/defense down, Gravity/Encumbrance (how would that work?), Bio/Max HP down all are available for Slugs. They could be particularly useful.

Adamantoise sounds like it can be the new tank, and Apkallu is fun with Frigid Shuffle/Yawn. This could actually turn out quite well! I'm excited. :D

[Selzak]

Like, Like, Like.

Rouse is a great idea. We can stand to sacrifice the stay of jug pets for an enhancement. I hope it's something like a 25 minute effect with a 10 minute (no stacking though) recast.

The turtle looks awesome. That should feel real nice with some PDT- gear.

[Orson]

Apkallu is an awesome pet!

[Atoreis]

Remember guys, if I read it right, that turtle and apkallu not coming with this update ( just saying so ppl wont be disappointed after )

[Laphine]

Sixthly: How did i miss this?

le thf rage? lol

[Crocker]

I want the maximum number of stacks for call beast items/petfood changed from 12 to 99.
Considering the balance between the cost of synthesis/synergy and the pet’s stats/amount of HP recovered from food, we think that being able to stack 12 is appropriate.

That is total crap give us a toolbag style set up for it then 12 stacks of 12.

I literally have 86 full stacks of jug pets and like 10 stacks of partials I work very hard at keeping my pet supply up and shouldn't be punished for being a BST! Rangers got Quivers and Ninjas got Toolbags and now Universal tools wheres the love for BST? Instead we get a new ability that makes are jug pets go away after it wears ....

Beastmaster is my main job and this is a sad day for BST since level 76+ happened we have turned into a zombie job you set pet on a monster and watch. We have nothing to charm anymore snarl is completely worthless even with a 90 farsha / Kraken Club I cant pull hate from my pet. Gauge that was never useful. Tame is useless now since there is nothing to charm. Feral howl fully merited never lands.

I just hope the new jugs will be craftable by 60 or under like most of the others are now or we get the next craft to 100 with this update so we don't have to pay 100k+ a stack like how we do with the ladybugs. (I make my own)

We already have a tiger jug so that's only 1 new Species.

Also if your gonna mess with old jugs to make them a little stronger could you also make them last as long as the new jugs? 2 hours would be great on everything, right now jugs like the cactus needs 100 alchemy and only last 30 minutes.

[Sortis]

It had to be added in later because being uncapped is part of being a monster. Monsters arent capped in any area we have plenty of NMs that show examples of this, and on top of that we have them saying "pets are monsters" and at one time we were able to bring pets to a 100% stat. Put those 2 together and we have a defined function of a monster

Monsters do not have caps.

By adding in a Pet DT cap you have now knocked it out of the monster category because it no longer meets the criteria for being a monster.


It might sound like im arguing against the DT cap. IM NOT. We have alredy had that battle and lost.

Im pointing out that SE cant use the excuse "pets are monsters so if we change this about pets we have to change it about all monsters" argument anymore. They have already showed us that when they want to they can seperate the rules that govern monsters and the rules that govern pets. So there is no reason they cant fix the targeting issue of "fight" (for god sakes its an ability that tells the monster attack THIS target, then the pet proceeds to ignore you) And there is no reason they cant allow pets to skillchain with everyone (or at least the master).

Personally, I would rather they just man up and say "we dont want to do it." Or "its too much work so no thanks" or just plain "no."

I find the current flawed logic they have thrown at us a little annoying.

Exactly, the pet should fight what we order it to fight. A. It's called our "Pet" telling us that it doesn't obey because it's still a beast...that doesn't fly with me, piddly excuse in my opinion. B. We're BeastMASTERs we are the masters they are the pets, they should be listening to us. The idea behind us being able to charm them is that we're friends with our beasts, just like the Galka in the AF quest line which had a neat little story by the way. Anyway, the point is, our pets should be our companions, when a Dragoon does a Weapon Skill the Wyvern uses breath, why should we expect any less?

[Karbuncle]

86 full stacks of jug pets

Uh.......... Wow? There's no reason for that unless you only visit town once a month >_>; Even in the longest Abyssea session i can comprehend you shouldn't need more than 2 stacks of a pet.

86 is just mid boggling, thats 1032 Pets not including the partial stacks. Frankly i think thats beyond "Good BST" and nose-diving into "OCD". a Good BST is prepared with at least 1 stack of each pet, what you're doing is obsessive over-preparing/hoarding :P

HOWEVER AMONGST ALL THIS ANGST I WOULD LIKE TO STOP A MOMENT AND SAY:

Your idea of BST-pet "Toolbags" for Jugs and Pet Food is an absolutely lovely idea. Since "Jugs" are basically jugs of broth, the "stack" item could be called "Pots", "Kettles"?

[Crocker]

I actually have an extra account to store them on but when im on bst I burn through them very fast usually bring 2 stacks of each with me of what I need to use. Sheep are usually worthless and ladybugs are only good for TH or soloing from the higher evasion.

Only 1-2 stacks that's like saying ninjas only need 1-2 stacks of shihei or the same for ranger. By the time they use 33 tools/arrows my pet is usually dead so in 4 hours I usually burn 3-4 stacks easy and now with a new ability we lose are pet after it wears we could really use a better way to carry them I cant even gear the job better because my inventory is so full.:(

[Gotterdammerung]

I think people underestimate Colibri. Pecking flurry should do decent dmg and feather tickle can be very useful. Plus having higher magic defence and being a thf and having movement speed and a high atk speed all would go together to make a wonderful pet.

But, I'm not dissapointed with apkallu. Having another super water resistant choice is nice. I am a little worried since MNK pets usually suck bawls for some reason there atk rounds usually come up almost 100 points lower in dmg for me. I'm hoping there looking into that. The whole fixing plant monsters was obviously refering to our jewish friend flowerpot merle. I don't think its the fact that hes a plant thats making him suck. I think its the fact that hes a monk job pet. Monk job pets have just always had weak hits. And its kinda wierd that Merle is such a sucky monk. You would figure that a jewish martial artist would be like a master at Krav Maga.

Anyway in the department of TP moves, AoE Para is real nice. Wing whirl has potential if it is stronger than whirl claws and cyclotail. And Dmg + stun moves are always welcome (wing slap). If the charges end up being reasonable on these moves it will be a nice jug.

Tigers will be a welcome edition. They have always performed very well in the DD department. and Razor fang has a crit chance. Roar is a pretty weak para but its nice to have as a side option on a DD pet.

Slugs will be very useful on water heavy monsters as they heal from water. I.E. Sedna gon get ownded. And fuscous ooze could possibly add some kiting potential. The other effects will basically depend on how things like HP down and encumbrance translate to monsters. What would be REAL cool. Is if SE Made all the slugs TP moves heavily effected by pet MAB. So far pet magic TP moves are stupid low even with massive MAB and affinity boosts from atmas. (400-500 dmg for a 300% tp charged whisker with blinding horn, lion and ultimate atma's for instance is just dumb)



And lastly even if everything turns out ok with these new jugs, they will be completely limited by how easy the recipe is. Hopefully SE sets them more like Nazuna recipes and less like bugeyed broncha recipes. If i end up spending 200k a stack im going to buy them for 200k just so i can throw them on the floor and piss on them and then go on a cook murdering rampage.


P.S. Id much rather get courrier steve with the krabkatoa sprite than some stupid turtle anyday. I have never really agreed with the whole "give us HNM pets" camp, but i find it funny that they finally get their wish and its the most fail HNM in existance.

[Olor]

I'm really unhappy that our only JA is going to make our jugs go away. The job is already pretty expensive... I mean I guess people who have been playing for 7 years and don't need gil don't think so but I have like 70K on my char right now. I won't be able to afford to use this new JA... and BST is not overpowered or anything. Couldn't we get a JA that doesn't cost us craptons of $$$$?

[Kensagaku]

Gil's not hard to come by though. Just from drops in Abyssea you can easily make jug money. Farming T4 spells is still fairly nice (Blizzard IV is at ~160k on my server, dunno about yours, AMs work too) and then crafting your own pet food saves you a lot of gil too. You can just craft your own Zeta even if your cooking gets locked at 60 (due to other crafts for example) because the mats are easy to get, it's a 59 synth, and the only costs you should have are earth crystals/flour/water, all cheap. The former is the biggest cost and can be offset by farming eles in sky or in some place with lots of earth weather. This is how I got by for a long time to save gil for my BST; it was annoying at times but it was worth it when I had to pinch pennies.

@ other person

I don't understand how you go through jugs so quickly, though. Most mobs aren't too bad with the proper atmas if you plan ahead, and between Pet food and a proper defense set your pet should be able to outlast most mobs unless they are something like Caturae or an AoE-spammy mob. Unless you're doing a pet burn in a party situation, your pet shouldn't be taking hate. In a solo situation, it's a bit more understandable, but burning through so many stacks at once makes it seem like there's an issue.

[Glamdring]

The new jugs proposed? meh... We've had tigers, they were good, but really not much superior to our 2 coeurls we have now. From a killer standpoint we have 4 beasts post 75. We are short any kind of new aquan and we have always needed a bird. Personally, I like amorphs, but the slug's TP is largely useless against mobs (congrats, you just made the naked raffelisia... naked). A jelly would be MUCH better; a hecteyes would even give us 1 pet witht the potential for magical damage (for those hard to whack mobs). Tiger has a very nice AoE paralyze, the rest of its TP moves never really thrilled me, and quite frankly, ANY AoE move is something I tend to try to avoid... unless I'm farming. Tigers have always been sweet for pet pulling tho'.

I'm on board with the other people not happy about the JA that's gonna burn my jugs even faster; they aren't free you know, some of them are downright hard on the wallet (or your playtime if you farm/craft your own). And you can tell the devs that their argument about stack sizes being good for game balance is about as smart as saying it's a good idea to feed a baby canned chili since it's already soft. If we can't stack them to 99 then let us bag 'em (food and jugs). Otherwise have them explain a legitimate way to clean up our inventory.

The apkallu down the road? Cool. Just remember, their awesome TP moves will probably be stripped from them, much the way only a CHARMED lizard will have petrification. As to a new aquan, crab was cool, but I think I'd like a pugil this time, or an Orobon... if you guys are dead set on giving us a bug-eyed freak ;p

[Karbuncle]

They could have also been talking about the Funguar pet, which was pretty weak if i recall right.

But i think the funguar pet was actually pretty decent as a melee... just not really good TP moves (All too expensive)

Edit: The only problem i see with colibri is while, Pecking Flurry sounds nice, it'll likely suffer from "Rush weakness" (A.k.a Shiva's 70BP, Multiple attacks = great chance of whiffs = low low numbers and rare high numbers).

That and they have the defense of a wet paper tissue, and are over-all rather weak. But Feather Tickle could be potentially decent too... Who knows. I kinda like the idea of Apkallu better so long as they dont make it bad :X

[SpankWustler]

I think people underestimate Colibri. Pecking flurry should do decent dmg and feather tickle can be very useful. Plus having higher magic defence and being a thf and having movement speed and a high atk speed all would go together to make a wonderful pet.

Not that this matters, but they seem to be Red Mages who sub Red Mage. They just have a naturally low delay for some weird reason. Maybe they're dagger-wielding Red Mages? They definitely can't Triple Attack and their evasion isn't anything special, though.

Your bit about magical pet weapon skills being eternally horrid was really informative. I had always wondered if they could be worthwhile with certain atmas, so it's good to know my tingling pessimist sense was correct. I guess the Slug will be more of a situational pet for inflicting Defense Down and absorbing (or resisting, if it's toned down) water damage.

Are most slugs Warriors like every other monster in Vana'diel, or do they have some weird job? They tend to forcibly remove my trousers and render them unusable, so I haven't fought many. They're certainly an unusual monster, so I wouldn't be surprised to find out they have an unusual job.

[Olor]

yeah... pet weaponskills are MEH period unless they are a buff or debuff as far as I am concerned. Lots of the time they do less damage than an ordinary hit... or they do with me anyway.

[Kensagaku]

It's not just you; in Abyssea pet WS are very underwhelming. On mobs outside of Abyssea they're not too bad, but there's not a lot outside of abyssea you're using BST pets on anyway that's not a trash mob... Maybe the occasional rare NM or something (I know fighting the Fomor NMs in the past is fun!) but for the most part, they're overly underwhelming. :(

[Xilk]

I'm really unhappy that our only JA is going to make our jugs go away. The job is already pretty expensive... I mean I guess people who have been playing for 7 years and don't need gil don't think so but I have like 70K on my char right now. I won't be able to afford to use this new JA... and BST is not overpowered or anything. Couldn't we get a JA that doesn't cost us craptons of $$$$?

Wait and see. How can people be angry about stuff when they don't even know how it is implemented? Run wild actually makes alot of sense. Our biggest handicap is being able to toss out some spike damage or increase our damage output when needed. The tradeoff here is in tanking ability. If our pet disappears after a big spurt of damage, thats just fine. Shucks pets are often cheaper than restoratives like biscuits and dawn mulsum.

What will make or break the run wild JA depends on exactly what it will do and the balance between potency and duration. There are plenty of cases I would sacrifice a jug for some serious dd output.

As long as the power/duration comparison is worthwhile, its going to be a fantastic ability for bst to get. it sounds like exactly a place where we are lacking as a job.

[Gotterdammerung]

Not that this matters, but they seem to be Red Mages who sub Red Mage. They just have a naturally low delay for some weird reason. Maybe they're dagger-wielding Red Mages? They definitely can't Triple Attack and their evasion isn't anything special, though.

Some Colibri are rdm's and some are thfs. I was referring to a thf colibri. A rdm colibri would suck unless it got the whole reflect magic thing wich would be neatish.

Either way it doesnt matter because they decided to go a different route.

Also karbuncle, funguars have always been awesome pets. Frog kick has always been on par for single hit dmg and they have lots of enfeebling options. The current highest lvl funguar has a higher crit chance than normal. And funguars resist both water and dark elemental dmg. So yeh im pretty sure they were talking about mandies.

[Kensagaku]

Yeah, I've actually had pretty good luck with Funguars on the ride up; in fact, when it came to charm camps, if there was a Funguar group there it was so much easier. They're durable for their level, their damage can be great (Dark Spore etc has amazing damage at high health, and then Frog Kick is great) and the amount of different status ailments available can be a great aid to you. On the other hand, I wasn't much for mandies unless that was my current charm camp and even then I was a tiny bit underwhelmed. They have a good potential for damage... at their level or below. Above, they seem to suffer a good deal.

[Karbuncle]

Some Colibri are rdm's and some are thfs. I was referring to a thf colibri. A rdm colibri would suck unless it got the whole reflect magic thing wich would be neatish.

Either way it doesnt matter because they decided to go a different route.

Please Show/explain to me which Colibri you believe is THF? No sarcasm here Gotter.

Wiki lists all of them as RDM, and on their "jobs" they list "Red Mage, Thief(Verification needed)" so thats entirely unconfirmed, and I doubt its accuracy.

Beyond that they have D-rank Evasion as well. Perhaps theres a single NM out there who may be considered a THF, But our jug pets have all been based off of "Vanilla" mobs, So a Colibri would likely be RDM/RDM.

I just don't think they'd be THF's. They could make them THF's because they have the power, But it would defy known logic, and they could just as easily make the Smilodon a THF (hey, Byakko is a thf.)

Edit:


Also karbuncle, funguars have always been awesome pets. Frog kick has always been on par for single hit dmg and they have lots of enfeebling options. The current highest lvl funguar has a higher crit chance than normal. And funguars resist both water and dark elemental dmg. So yeh im pretty sure they were talking about mandies.

My Complaint was their TP moves costed to many ready charged (The decent ones are all 2-3 Charges), however, When i first tried the pets at level ~80 i was disappointed, Maybe i didn't give them a chance.

However, I did read that large compilation of BST related Jug-pet data, and saw that He had 5% more critical hit rate than other pets, and that was interesting. I had simply found Dark Spore severely underwhelming back then... But this was likely because i was fighting weaker mobs and my Foot Kick/Sheep Charges were doing in the ballpark of 1k~1.1k (I was farming really weak things for my Oa2-4x back then)

[SpankWustler]

The current Funguar jug pet is really weird. It has a high delay, mediocre base damage, but high critical hit rate. It's interesting, especially given how much critical hits help pets, but I don't really use it because all of it's TP moves seem to require one charge too many.

[Gotterdammerung]

Please Show/explain to me which Colibri you believe is THF? No sarcasm here Gotter.

Wiki lists all of them as RDM, and on their "jobs" they list "Red Mage, Thief(Verification needed)" so thats entirely unconfirmed, and I doubt its accuracy.

Beyond that they have D-rank Evasion as well. Perhaps theres a single NM out there who may be considered a THF, But our jug pets have all been based off of "Vanilla" mobs, So a Colibri would likely be RDM/RDM.

I just don't think they'd be THF's. They could make them THF's because they have the power, But it would defy known logic, and they could just as easily make the Smilodon a THF (hey, Byakko is a thf.)

Just missed the verification tag. My mistake.






My Complaint was their TP moves costed to many ready charged (The decent ones are all 2-3 Charges), however, When i first tried the pets at level ~80 i was disappointed, Maybe i didn't give them a chance.

However, I did read that large compilation of BST related Jug-pet data, and saw that He had 5% more critical hit rate than other pets, and that was interesting. I had simply found Dark Spore severely underwhelming back then... But this was likely because i was fighting weaker mobs and my Foot Kick/Sheep Charges were doing in the ballpark of 1k~1.1k (I was farming really weak things for my Oa2-4x back then)


I'd recommend giving the funguar a chance, IF it wasnt horribly understocked and overpriced. But since it is... it does not get my seal of approval, but it is not a weak pet. Its just not a viable pet due to stock and price.

Also you will typically always do more damage with the 1 charge frog kick. It is superior to the breaths in dmg/charge. And it should be on par with Sheep charge.

[Xilk]

Funguar has more than 5% bonus in crit rate vs the other pets. More like 10~15% higher crit rate. I'm the one who found it and posted it.

Funguar is peculiar because it is a vanillia war like so many others, but it has such a weak attack (about the same a yuly) and such a high crit rate. REally if you are using RR and GH in abyssea, you'll be about 90% crit rate using Louise. The breath attacks will pop off at around 1k damage at level 90, but the macc isn't great even on level 0 mobs. Pet Macc gear would help these quite a bit. I"m not sure all the best ways to use louise though. Maybe I'll go out and a parse w/ this atma setup and apocalypse to see how the crit hits average out. Either way its a unique and interesting pet.

I"m looking forward to seeing what ready moves they keep on the slug. the original version of corrosive ooze is very good. I also really hope we keep the encumbrance effect from Fuscous Ooze. It would only be useful for ballista or something.. but come on, that would be hilarious! I've been wanting a slug to do that since they raised the level cap from 75.

[GailC]

That's like saying you can live without warcry on warrior, but /attack is the greatest feature of the job ever.

Honestly, you about summed it up.

Without /attack, Warrior would be absolutely useless.
Without Warcry, Warrior wouldn't change a bit.

[deces]

If only we could skillchain and proc weakness with our jugs like charged whisker and other such TP moves, BST would become very dynamic

[Xilk]

If only we could skillchain and proc weakness with our jugs like charged whisker and other such TP moves, BST would become very dynamic

They did open up ready move proc's in dynamis and voidwatch. It also gives a bit of demand to glyph axe.