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View Full Version : Revaluation of DRG Group1/Group 2 merits.



Ophannus
07-30-2011, 10:57 AM
Since the dev team made it a point that they would reevaluate and rebalance merits, I thought I would create a thread specifically for these kinds of adjustments to share our views.


Group 1 Merits for DRG are pretty solid but almost all DRGs will opt for Jump/High Jump recasts as these affect our two most useful abilities that create instantaneous damage as well as generate TP. This has never been more true than after Spirit and Soul Jump were added. If the dev team ever adds an expansion to the amount of points we can spend on Group 1 category, then I think some merits that lower recast of superfluous abilities should be removed. For example, I'd wager that almost no DRG ever merits Ancient Circle. It's a 10 minute ability that lasts for 60-90 seconds with such a situational and niche effect. There's no justification for adding it even if they fight Wyrms or Dragons frequently. More Jumps and more High Jumps are still better. Spirit Link recast is also something a DRG would not bother with. Spirit Link is such a hit or miss ability. If you're fighting something that does moderate AoE, a 3 minute spirit link is all you need. If you're fighting something that AoE's heavily, and extra 30 seconds off spirit link likely will just prolong the inevitable.

To replace these I submit the following:
Wyvern HP+ merits. It could be +5%, +2%, +2%, +2%, +2%. Will add wyvern survivability while also enhancing breath's.

Group 2's.

Angon: Angon is perfect, there's nothing wrong with it. The only adjustments I can see to it would be maybe create more kinds of angons we can throw that have a variety of effects. Most of the time the defense down is super awesome, but sometimes another effect would be more beneficial, perhaps an evasion down angon, or a bind angon. I realize that some mobs resist bind and that Angon's defense down always lands no matter what, but perhaps it could be more akin to a Shadowbind effect. It can even have a lower duration to make it balanced since it has a shorter recast. Or a magic defense down angon for situations where physical attacks aren't used. Just something to give DRG a more supportive effect to the party, rather than being another generic DD.

Deep Breathing: This effect is already straight forward, I can't think of any adjustments that could be made. I personally have maxed this out just because an 800 HP healing breathing or restoring breath every 5minutes has saved me numerous times. Maybe if used with a healing breath, it could be extended to be an AoE, although that might make it a bit overpowered considering it generates so little enmity. Perhaps a status effect on the elemental breath, but also it's difficult to select the breath used since it's random. I can't think of any worthwhile adjustments for this job ability.

Strafe: Strafe right now is worthless. Since Elemental Breath damage is based off of the function of WyvernCurrentHP/WyvernMaxHP it's unlikely that the wyvern will use it's breath attacks at full damage on most HNMs due to AoE. So this makes strafe only really useful for small fry mobs like EXP mobs where the wyvern will remain at full HP most of the time, justifying the higher accuracy and thus more consistent breaths. The follow are suggestions for making Strafe more useful:

1) Make it increase breath potency by 5% for the first merit and 2% thereafter in addition to the +5 accuracy it provides. This could be mutually exclusive or not, compared to the Group 1 merit suggestion for Wyvern HP merits. This would have a similar effect on wyvern breaths, though this is more specific for breaths whereas Wyvern HP merits would only increase breath damage as a residual side effect of +HP.

2) Make Strafe more like Optimization/Fine-Tuning, increasing the Wyvern's physical damage taken, attack and accuracy. Since BST pets and PUPs get Stout Servant, this would be a great way for DRGs to enhance a Wyvern's statistics and make them a more robust ally. Currently the Wyvern is like a floating 40DMG Staff, dealing 30-40 damage to most HNMs, assuming they don't miss, but take twice as much damage as we do.

Empathy: At first I thought this was a useful ability. I could give my wyvern Shell/Protect on the first Spirit Link, then Haste and minuet on the second. But as it turned out, it made such little difference increased wyvern attack and attack speed made hardly any difference in it's damage output, and the benefits of shell on my wyvern were so underwhelming on most HNMs that it was borderline unnoticable in terms of damage resistance. Instead of my wyvern being taken down to 10% HP on a single AoE, it'd be taken down to 30% in one AoE, but in both cases it'd die on the second one regardless. The only benefits I could see this trait getting is a boost to the number of effects that transfer with only Level 1 Empathy. Currently it's 1 effect for Level 1 and each additional level copies an additional effect. What needs to happen is Level 1 needs to be 2 or 3 statuses per Spirit Link. By the time Spirit Link's recast is back up, a lot of my buffs may have worn, since Haste only lasts 5 minutes and Songs only last 2-3, it's hard to maintain buffs on my Wyvern. Additionally if the ability is kept in its current form as one that transfers buffs to the wyvern, perhaps make the ability steal less HP from the Dragoon the more buffs that transfers. This would not negatively impact the amount of HP the wyvern is healed, but rather simply reduce the HP cost the Dragoon pays when using Spirit Link. 1 buff= -10% HP. 5 buffs= -50% HP. The wyvern is healed the same as it would normally just less HP is loss on the Dragoon's part depending on how many buffs he transfers.

Another approach is nix the ability to transfer buffs to our wyvern completely because in general, while allowing us to give our wyvern things like haste and march and rolls is interesting and fun, it's very novel and not useful. I propose eliminating that approach and instead make empathy grant the Wyvern a poweful latent auto regen effect. At level 1 it could trigger when below 50%. Each additional merit would increase the threshold by which the latent regen triggers by 10% per merit up to 90%. The regen could be potent as well, thinking 10-15 HP/merit. That's not a lot of HP and wouldn't upset game balance as 15hp/tick only amounts to maybe 300 hp per minute and anything hitting our wyvern is hitting it for close to 100 damage per hit anyway. But this would ease the damage our wyvern sustains in battle.

Another approach to this is simply add a powerful Regen to Spirit Link not unlike what Invigorate does to Chakra. If strong enough and given a moderate duration, could bridge the gap between Spirit Link recasts and give enough leeway to let our wyverns survive long enough for the next Link. Maybe 5-10 HP per tick for 90 seconds after Spirit Link is used. Or another deal could be it gives both the wyvern and the dragoon this regen.

noodles355
07-30-2011, 10:26 PM
Your spirit link pointes are innacurate, although I agree with other points of your post.
Empathy used to copy buffs in order. Haste was before pro/shell, meaning haste would get transfered almost always first. However they have now (or it was before and I was just lucky) made it so random buffs got transfered, which isn't as useful as mostly it will be crap stuff like protect or hasso/seigan or whm cureskin.
Also I'm fairly sure thst spirit link would update current buffs if you re-spirit liniked, so say you SL protect which had 20 minutes duration remaining, and then spirt linked again in 3 minutes, you would just get protect again with 17 mins remaining. I could be very wrong though.

Ophannus
07-30-2011, 11:18 PM
I also think it used to copy Signet or Sanction and since it copied in order, you'd always get those recopied even though they have no effect on the wyvern. Regardless, Empathy is very meh. It should copy 3 buffs at a time for Level 1 to make it worthwhile. The only reason I have Empathy even unlocked is so I can spirit link at 100% and get TP from my wyvern.

Anucris
07-31-2011, 03:35 PM
group 1 was good cept u omitted 2 and added 1, we'll say wyvern HP is in place of ancient, i guess we could leave spirit link because well its still better than ancient circle and some may lower time for xtra tp link who knows.
Liked the idea's on angon
Deep breathing should have the AOE effect, thats not too overpowered considering its every 5+ minutes. will mostly be used just to top off the party.
Strafe should definately increase breath potency because well. even on weak mobs with full hp the wyvern breath attack is barely (10-60 points) stronger than an attack. correct breath makes little difference, (strafe could also give the wyvern a regenerating set of shadows, first lvl he gains a shadow every 5 min up to 3, with more lvls he gets a shadow regenerated per minute, this would also help with AOE's...some)
Empathy should transfer 2 buffs at lvl 1 and bonuses from the drg's gear) so if u got 57str, 26dex, 22 vit, blah blah +14 acc, +41 att, it should transfer, turns ur wyv from a staff to a nice sword with a lil xtra boost in other areas
the autoregen idea was nice but should be active even at 100%, the merits would change how much per tic i.e 10, 12, 14, 16, 18... hmm even then pple will opt for just 1 merit, there has to be something appealing per lvl. each additional lvl increases its -damage taken -20%, 25, 30, 35, 40 something like that.

Krillin
08-09-2011, 12:45 AM
Interesting adjustment ideas to the merits, it would be great to replace the Ancient Circle recast timer with Wyvern hp%+!

I do think that the current utility of Empathy is being underestimated. From my experience it has been hugely beneficial in Abyssea. Copying RR/VV/Apoc to the little guy makes him a deadly partner. It's not uncommon to see consistent double/triple attacks from your wyvern with great damage on the critical hits. Tack on Haste and he really goes to work. With anywhere from 60-150+ damage per hit on your standard mobs it adds up. Great for light building and KI chest farming.

Granted against NMs with massive AOEs it is less beneficial due to the high likelihood of being brought down in 1 or 2 AoE hits. It should be noted that you can also copy Utsusemi for added protection from select physical AOE which gives some amount of additional survivability. Every bit you can prolong "the inevitable" allows for more opportunities to trigger the additional TP gain with jumps and that sweet AF3+2 "damage varies with wyvern hp" effect.

That said, it does takes a little bit of thought to ensure that you're only copying the effects you want. With it Empathy fully merited I try to only spirit link when i know the 3 ATMA combo will remain active with the other copied effects usually being protect/haste or protect/utsusemi. When Abyssea and ATMA buffs cease being the main content i could see scaling back empathy in favor of other group 2 abilities. Cheers.

Thonuwan
08-09-2011, 04:42 AM
Atmas automatically transfer over to our pets.

Proof is just above the atma list down the page: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Atma

Krillin
08-09-2011, 06:36 AM
If that's true I'm seriously rethinking my merit distribution... I'm almost positive you don't see certain affects until after a spirit link. Kind of hard to miss a triple attacking wyvern ^^ I'll test it out tonight and pay homage tomorrow! Cheers

Edit: Tested and confirmed... Empathy not as awesome as thought /sigh Still think it has uses but not 5/5 merits. At least now I can have fun re-balancing! Thanks for the link.

noodles355
08-09-2011, 08:30 AM
Atmas automatically transfer over to our pets like the cruor enhancements do.

Proof is just above the atma list down the page: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/AtmaAtma does, cruor enhancements do not. If cruor enhancements did it would be the boost to healing breath everyone's been wanting, as the wyvern would also get it's HP doubled.

Thonuwan
08-09-2011, 08:42 AM
You are correct. Cruor buffs do not transfer. I changed my earlier post to have correct information.

Ophannus
08-09-2011, 12:21 PM
For the thousandth time, we don't need Healing Breath enhancements. If we did they would have to nerf another aspect of it. My healing breaths are already a ZERO MP, ZERO ENMITY+ NON INTERRUPTABLE CURE 5. With correct atma you can push it to healing 1k which is like a cure 6 with Deep Breathing being a Cure 7 or Divine Seal Cure 6 except with a 5m recast instead of 10. The fact we have Restoring Breath as a /Melee sub is already remarkable considering the next best thing any other melee has is Chakra, cuz Waltzes still cost TP.

Anucris
08-11-2011, 01:04 AM
Ur usually right orph but ur not seeing the whole pic. 1 u gotta have 2 macros for good HB and 2 in abyssea ur sacrificing most of your DD potential for those nice cures. Making killing a mob more of a chore and much slower. Also. I'd like to be able to solo a few NM's. So although I'd rather have a DMg buff I wouldn't mind improved HB. Somewhere. I think ur afraid pple wanting it will make the dev's opt for it instead of some nice DMg ability. But I say give us both

Ophannus
08-11-2011, 04:34 AM
Even outside Abyssea my healing breaths are very close to 600 which is still a free, zero MP, hateless Cure V. As our level increases and Wyvern HP increases our HB potency will scale up especially with Wyrm Armet and Lancer's Torque which provide a higher bonus the higher the Wyvern's HP is since it increases the effect by a percentage. We have the most efficient cure spell in the game with the proper sub and even as a melee sub the fact that we can self heal for nothing is amazing, MNK's Chakra doesn't even compare.

Ophannus
09-21-2011, 05:31 AM
Now that the update's here and next update is reevaluation of merits, let's fire this thread up again!

Anucris
09-21-2011, 02:11 PM
Make wyv not use tp on breaths to improve the want of SL
Doesn't really affect the merit so I'll try again

Ancient circle. Lasts 30 seconds longer per merit and grants -DT from dragons by 10% per merit in addition to what it already does (it's gonna take something good for neone to use this)

On super jump. While in air u can grant 20% of ur enmity lost to target party member per merit in addition to what's already there

Increase jump to -5 sec per merit is only thing I can think of here less they don't mind adding debuff % here. add +5% chance to stun per merit would be nice

Add more time off per merit on high jump or 5% per merit chance to erase tp of mob would be cool.


My ideas for jump/high jump also carry over to new jumps. Old jumps still won't get used even with buffs

2nd set

Angon is good already

Deep breathing could have 5% chance per merit to be pt aoe

Empathy -in addition to the buff wyvern gets 20% of ur gear bonuses? Or just 5% haste for every merit (last as long as he still has a buff) and stacks with haste transferred ( so can give wyv 40% haste this way. 41% with the gear buff idea but will also get ur da, ta, ATT+ stat boosts etc. U might say overpowering but I doubt it

Strafe adds 10% boost to wyv ATT and heal potency per merit don't care if it even keeps it's acc bonus

Sure I don't think small. But if u ask SE for very small improvements that's prolly all ull get if not less. I'm just giving us a starting point and SE something to chew on.

noodles355
09-21-2011, 06:02 PM
Why do you want Super Jump to work like trick attack and put enmity on someone? Unless i misunderstood and you want super jump to shed 20% of someone else's enmity.

Anucris
09-21-2011, 08:39 PM
Can be either. There just ideas. I was just buffing the merit abilities already there. Actually having super jump totally shed hate from yourself like hide would be interesting. (landing, turning to let wyv get a hit in doesn't always save u when ur alone). Although a hide version of super jump probably wouldn't work in battle very well and its not a big deal to me

Anucris
09-21-2011, 08:42 PM
Also it's not that uncommon for more than one job to have likened abilities. Just throwing stuff out there to give u more options when playing. What about be of the other ideas? Lol noodles I know ull be honest and ur not one to hold back

noodles355
09-22-2011, 06:16 PM
To be honest, I'd be happy with group 1 merit catagories just replacing Ancient Circle Recast with Wyvern HP+, although they probably just added circle for completeness like the other jobs with circle abilities, because you know how se likes things in sets and groups. In that case just add wyvern HP+ as an option. Stun jumps would be nice and stuff but I'm not too fussed. For group 2 like you say angon and deep breathing are fine, an AoE option would be cool but with a 5% proc rate to be AoE it'd be pretty worthless. If they added a completely new ability at 99 that let healing breath be AoE, that would be better imo. As for strafe, they should just make it increase wyvern breath accuracy AND damage. Adding cure potency to strafe would be cool, but it would do basically the same as wyvern HP+ merits. That could actually be pretty cool though.

Anucris
09-22-2011, 11:00 PM
Yeah I can't say I'd mind seeing ancient circle hit the trash bin as far as merits go. They wyv hp merits would be cool but what if they added at least 20hp per merit unlike players. This combined with my strafe idea gives us HB 4 without actually putting it in the game (ophannus is very against hb4 but ive never hb for his posted numbers, mine are more like 450 outside abyssea and 600 inside, I can't waste atma to boost HB). Well I figure most pple have 2-5 merits in DB so that's 10-25% chance. 10-20% would be more welcome per merit cause it is only once every 5-12.5 minutes for most pple. So 20-100% chance depending on merits Yeah considering DB own long delay I'll edit my other post. Thanks for the input.