Avatar AI problems that need to be addressed

[Tarage]

Hi SE,

I just read a nice long post about the grievances made my Puppetmasters about their automation and I felt something needed to be said about the basic AI of avatars.

While it is true that Avatar usefulness has been improving steadily over the last few years, there are still MAJOR bugs in the AI of the Avatars and Spirits themselves. I won't get into Spirits today, since they are far too underused to be of any worth in the immediate future. Here are the problems that I see:

1. Avatar aggression is very badly handled. There are many times where I have run up to an enemy, used my attack macro, and had my lagging behind Avatar simply float up to me and do nothing. Not to mention that because of the cool down, I have to twiddle my thumbs before I can say "Hey, Avatar, go attack that thing like I asked you to the first time." This is HIGHLY annoying and should be fixed.

2. Another problem with aggression is the behavior an Avatar displays when attacking a monster showing aggression towards a player. All too often in situations where there are multiple slept enemies I have had my avatar go and attack one of them. I can spam the retreat command, but it ignores me to the point where I have to unsummon and resummon. If I tell an Avatar not to attack, it should not attack until I tell it otherwise.

3. Let me start off by saying thank you for fixing the problem of mobs being out of range when using a blood pact attack. However, the problem still rears it's head when a mob dies before the avatar can finish their attack. If this occurs, the timer should be reset. I shouldn't have to stand and wait another 45 seconds because my avatar took too long to attack and now the mob is dead. This is silly.

These are three easy fixes that would go miles to improving the job. I'm not asking for much here.

[Korpg]

1. Wait until your avatar catches up to you before hitting Assault? It is not that hard.

2. This is not a problem, this is a shining example as to why SMNs are so great at what they do. Having the avatar attack a mob that has aggression towards you is the pinnacle of kiting. Otherwise we would be endangering ourselves to have to hit assault each time we resummon an avatar.

3. Ok, you got one problem right. 1/3 "problems" isn't that bad, but isn't that great either.

Only 1 thing needs to be fixed, you probably have not been a SMN that long by the looks of it. Besides, what slept mob would have hate on you anyway?

[Tarage]

1. Wait until your avatar catches up to you before hitting Assault? It is not that hard.

Except that avatar pathing is pretty bad in some cases. Those few seconds of waiting for your Avatar to meander to you can cost you in some fights.


2. This is not a problem, this is a shining example as to why SMNs are so great at what they do. Having the avatar attack a mob that has aggression towards you is the pinnacle of kiting. Otherwise we would be endangering ourselves to have to hit assault each time we resummon an avatar.

You misunderstood me. I am not saying 'Get rid of avatars attacking things that attack us'. I'm saying 'If I tell my Avatar not to attack, I want it not to attack.' Make it a separate command if you want. There are times when I am using an Avatar for favor to support mages and I don't want it running away from me.


3. Ok, you got one problem right. 1/3 "problems" isn't that bad, but isn't that great either.

Only 1 thing needs to be fixed, you probably have not been a SMN that long by the looks of it. Besides, what slept mob would have hate on you anyway?

I've been a SMN since before CoP. I did the solo fork fights all by myself. Trust me on this, I know what I'm talking about. Even if a mob is slept, if I cure the person who slept the mob, my avatar WILL attack the slept mob. The avatar AI is only smart enough to perceive hate, not judge if there is an actual threat from a slept mob. The second I get high enough on that hate list, BOOM, it attacks.

I'm just offering three small fixes here. Trying to get Bahamut or what have you is a lot less realistic.

[Korpg]

Except that avatar pathing is pretty bad in some cases. Those few seconds of waiting for your Avatar to meander to you can cost you in some fights.

Pathing is a problem, but costing fights, never really happened to me before. Costing claims, yeah.


You misunderstood me. I am not saying 'Get rid of avatars attacking things that attack us'. I'm saying 'If I tell my Avatar not to attack, I want it not to attack.' Make it a separate command if you want. There are times when I am using an Avatar for favor to support mages and I don't want it running away from me.

So, basically, you are asking for a "Stay" command, or really, just "Follow."

That is ok I guess. Not really needed, but still ok.


I've been a SMN since before CoP. I did the solo fork fights all by myself. Trust me on this, I know what I'm talking about. Even if a mob is slept, if I cure the person who slept the mob, my avatar WILL attack the slept mob. The avatar AI is only smart enough to perceive hate, not judge if there is an actual threat from a slept mob. The second I get high enough on that hate list, BOOM, it attacks.

I'm just offering three small fixes here. Trying to get Bahamut or what have you is a lot less realistic.

I'm guessing you are telling the truth about being a SMN before CoP even though I thought it came out when CoP came out, but I could be wrong (I'm an XBOX beta tester, I came with ToAU).

But still, don't cure the person who slept the mob. They can cure themselves. You shouldn't be on the hate list at all for all the slept mobs, nor should you be back-seat curing people who can cure themselves (BLMs have no excuse, they can Drain mobs being fought at the very least).

[Tarage]

Costing anything is a problem. What if your avatar is attacking something else and you need it to attack what's hitting you? Having your avatar float over to you and do nothing while you die is a problem.

The Einherjar example I gave in the other thread is a PERFECT example of why a stay command IS needed. Ignore it if you want. And saying 'the one who slept the mobs can cure themselves' is stupid. Asking a BLM to cure themselves is like asking a WAR to cure themselves. It's not their job. The job of a SMN is to support. If you don't cure people, you are playing SMN wrong.

Summoner came out before RotZ. CoP was the only expansion without any new jobs. RotZ added the cloisters.

[Korpg]

Costing anything is a problem. What if your avatar is attacking something else and you need it to attack what's hitting you? Having your avatar float over to you and do nothing while you die is a problem.

If my avatar is attacking something else and I need it to attack what is hitting me, I hit retreat. The avatar will automatically go and rescue my rump while I run away. Then I learn not to get aggro like that again, until I forget and get aggro like that again.


The Einherjar example I gave in the other thread is a PERFECT example of why a stay command IS needed. Ignore it if you want. And saying 'the one who slept the mobs can cure themselves' is stupid. Asking a BLM to cure themselves is like asking a WAR to cure themselves. It's not their job. The job of a SMN is to support. If you don't cure people, you are playing SMN wrong.

Einherjar example on what thread? I'm sorry, but I don't go around following you. You should quote yourself for that in this case. Cause I'm not going to go look for it. Also, you are being obtuse. Name me one example as to how a BLM will not have access to cure during an event. Especially one that they have to be on sleeping duty. Then again....why? Why is it not the BLMs job to cure themselves? If they want to survive, they should do so. WAR does not have any ability to give themselves more HP, so they cannot cure themselves. SMN is not a main healer, and at very limited times, they are sub healers. BP:Ws only really. Why should a job be determined by the subjob it brings?


Summoner came out before RotZ. CoP was the only expansion without any new jobs. RotZ added the cloisters.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Tarage]

I guess since you weren't around before ToAU you don't know how bad it used to be for SMN. The way I got to 75 was by main healing. Back then, avatars barely did anything, there was no split between rage and ward, and we were expected to heal and do nothing else. The stigma is still there.

If you are playing SMN in a support capacity, you need to be healing. SMN have an incredible pool of MP and not using that is harmful to your alliance. Often times BLMs need to focus on nuking specific mobs and keeping others asleep. Asking them to also cure themselves is often too much. I don't know how many BLMs you have worked with, but the point is SMN should be the one curing, ESPECIALLY if we are in avatar favor mode. We shouldn't be attacking because that resets the favor tic counter, and there isn't much else to do at that point.

Even if you are right, and the BLM should be curing, the point still stands. If a mob is asleep and I am getting hate, my avatar should NOT go attack it unless I say to attack it. It's a big problem.

[Malamasala]

If a mob is asleep and I am getting hate, my avatar should NOT go attack it unless I say to attack it. It's a big problem.

I wouldn't mind some slight AI update to make them avoid slept mobs. Shouldn't be that hard to program.

[Sasaraixx]

2. This is not a problem, this is a shining example as to why SMNs are so great at what they do.

Besides, what slept mob would have hate on you anyway?

To be fair, Tarage does have a point. Avatar's auto-attacking monsters is great, but you should have the ability to turn it off or a Stay command. It's not a huge problem, but there are times when it can be annoying. Sea is an example of this. Luckily, SE has not added more mobs that behave like gold fish (or rather that our avatars react to).

And there are times when you will need to heal someone and that might cause you to pull hate from a slept mob. That has happened while healing in an alliance with the puller in my party. I could wait for someone else in another party to heal her but they might be busy or not paying attention and as the person is in my party it is my responsibility. This can usually be dealt with by sending your avatar to attack a mob that is being fought. The attack command takes presidence over auto-attack. The few times that may not be an option you will have to Release.

I've never done Einherjar so I don't know what that example could be.

It's not a major issue but just an occasional annoyance. If our favors were worth using at we had need to keep our avatars out, but not engaged then I would be more interested in this being addressed. Sadly, they are not so I'm not so bothered by it. There are more pressing matters that need to be addressed with our avatars.

[Tannlore]

On the Auto-attack problem, I've been beating that dead horse since the game came out. My suggestion has been the same and taken from other mmos as far back as EQ frankly:

Pet modes: Have an option to set your avatar on passive or aggressive. If passive, it will not auto-attack. Problem solved. If aggressive, it will auto-attack as it does now.

I hated summoning my avatars back in the old dynamis days after the blm had done sleepgas on big pulls and I had hate from curing. only to summon an avatar and have it float off and start waking things up and watching blm drop like flies. Though.... I was a master of MPK in those respects :D

[Imakun]

Pet modes: Have an option to set your avatar on passive or aggressive. If passive, it will not auto-attack. Problem solved. If aggressive, it will auto-attack as it does now.

This is what I always wanted too. I had problems in Dynamis or other group events when my Avatars decided to go "screw you summoner, I want blood".
Make the aggresive stance the standard one and add two pet commands to chose the stance we want.

[Korpg]

The only time an avatar will auto-attack any monster is if, and only if, the Summoner is on the top of the hate list.

The only way to be on top of the hate list is if you are cure bombing the sleeper. You shouldn't have to cure bomb the sleeper because the sleeper can cure bomb themselves. Or the WHM. If you are there as a main heal, you shouldn't have your avatar out in the first place, and your party is doomed to fail anyway.

The Auto-attack is not a problem with SE, it is a problem with the stupidity of the Summoner. Only the Summoner can fix that problem.

[Sasaraixx]

That is a gross oversimplification Korpg and not entirely accurate. Sometimes you will have to heal. There is no way to deny it. And sometimes you may have to heal a lot. Things happen. You have to adapt and be willing to help. If you've played this job/game long enough, you're bound to have found yourself in such a situation.

We've also given you examples outside of curing where you would not want your avatar to auto-attack a target and it has nothing to do with stupidity either. You're being far too judgmental. Not being able to control when your pet attacks CAN be a problem.

As I said, it is not a huge problem because the examples are few and I'd rather developer time be spent resolving more important issues. Nevertheless, I can understand why some people would want it addressed.

[Korpg]

I'm not going to deny that there are very few times where I had to help heal, but I also made it a point to not main heal nor heal the BLM in charge of sleeping.

I expected the BLM in charge of sleeping to actually cure himself.

I also won't deny the oversimplification of my post, but it seems like Tan doesn't understand enmity and avatar's actions.

However, if the Summoner thinks that by curebombing the person who can cure themselves is a great idea, then that is stupidity of that Summoner. No amount of "fixes" will cure of that Summoner of that stupidity.

[Tarage]

BLM should not be wasting MP on curing themselves. I don't know why that is so hard for you to understand. Have you ever played with a BLM before?

[Korpg]

BLM should not be wasting MP on curing themselves. I don't know why that is so hard for you to understand. Have you ever played with a BLM before?

Maybe not in the same way as you. See, I figure, a BLM who cures himself when needed is one who is able to continue to nuke stuff. A BLM who doesn't cure himself or use Drain often usually finds himself asking for a raise.

But we play BLM differently, don't we? That is, assuming that you have BLM even leveled.

[Tarage]

Maybe not in the same way as you. See, I figure, a BLM who cures himself when needed is one who is able to continue to nuke stuff. A BLM who doesn't cure himself or use Drain often usually finds himself asking for a raise.

But we play BLM differently, don't we? That is, assuming that you have BLM even leveled.

It was my first job.

I have to wonder how many high end events you have been to. Asking a BLM to cure themselves with their limited MP pool is wrong. Yes, they 'can' do it, just like as a SMN I 'can' melee my enemies to death. Should I? Hell no. A BLM's job is not to look after themselves. Keep track of hate and not overnuke? Yes. Cure themselves? No. That's what support jobs are for. And SMN is a support job, even if you don't like it.

I don't like it either, but it IS the job.

[Korpg]

It was my first job.

I have to wonder how many high end events you have been to. Asking a BLM to cure themselves with their limited MP pool is wrong. Yes, they 'can' do it, just like as a SMN I 'can' melee my enemies to death. Should I? Hell no. A BLM's job is not to look after themselves. Keep track of hate and not overnuke? Yes. Cure themselves? No. That's what support jobs are for. And SMN is a support job, even if you don't like it.

I don't like it either, but it IS the job.

I'm not saying you should main heal as a BLM, nor melee as a SMN. I'm saying that you should cure yourself (hint: notice the bolded word, you have ignored it so far) to save the WHM MP for curing those who can't cure themselves or cure the tank.

BLM's job all depends on what is needed. Not to overnuke, yes. To keep a group of mobs slept, yes. Why are you lazy to cure yourself?

SMN is a job that supports damage dealing. They give buffs to the party and do decent damage to the mobs. They can kite stuff if needed, and can effectively turn a bad situation into a salvageable one. That is their role. To cure everyone is not.

[Arciel]

the avatar's auto-attack instinct is a feature of the SMN job, not a flaw.
it is one of the few things that sets a SMN apart from other pet jobs, and is something you have to learn to control as part of the job, just like hate management and MP control.

honestly, it is one of the most useful defensive tools for a SMN.

pros:
-avatar instinct allows SMNs to carbykite / avatarkite from great distances. without it, SMN cannot solo bombs or worms effectively/safely.
-the auto-attack upon aggro is a useful tool to provide protection. even if they miss, their "first strike" generates enmity away from the master.
-if you're in a group and your pet starts auto-attacking, then you'll know that you need to manage your enmity better - or some form of hate reset is at play

cons:
-avatar may attack mobs you don't want them to attack, that are being slept or whatever.
-you want avatar to retreat, but it refuses to and keeps attacking a mob because you still have main hate.

solutions:
-Assault command takes higher priority. If your pet is already assaulted on a mob, it's instinct will not kick in
-its usually useful in solo play, but if you want to like kite/pull a mob and not have pet attacking, simply make their hate level higher than you (so that they're tanking), do a good strong BP that will help them solidify hate and you can Retreat do whatever.

trivia:
all pet jobs pets have their own form of instinct.
SMN avatars have the auto-attack instinct when SMN is on top of hate list.
BST pets, when engaged, will only choose to fight whoever is hitting them the hardest, or giving the most hate.

DRG and PUP is more mechanics based..
DRG wyverns cannot be ordered to engage and only assist their master.
PUP automatons don't really have any instinct.. they're the most 'obedient' of pets in terms of engaging mobs. Only one would be that maton that starts nuking won't stop just because it is retrieved.

[Tarage]

I'm not saying you should main heal as a BLM, nor melee as a SMN. I'm saying that you should cure yourself (hint: notice the bolded word, you have ignored it so far) to save the WHM MP for curing those who can't cure themselves or cure the tank.

BLM's job all depends on what is needed. Not to overnuke, yes. To keep a group of mobs slept, yes. Why are you lazy to cure yourself?

SMN is a job that supports damage dealing. They give buffs to the party and do decent damage to the mobs. They can kite stuff if needed, and can effectively turn a bad situation into a salvageable one. That is their role. To cure everyone is not.

And I'm saying that BLM shouldn't even be curing themselves unless it's a dire situation. Enemity is but one issue.

Look, I want you to go to the BLM forums and ask them if they cure themselves on a regular basis when in an alliance for an event. I guarantee you the majority will say no.

[Korpg]

And I'm saying that BLM shouldn't even be curing themselves unless it's a dire situation. Enemity is but one issue.

Look, I want you to go to the BLM forums and ask them if they cure themselves on a regular basis when in an alliance for an event. I guarantee you the majority will say no.

On a regular basis? Even I don't need to cure myself on a regular basis, and my friends joke about all the times I die.

But I'll take your challenge. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12218-BLM-and-Cure?p=157103#post157103)

[Tarage]

If you're going to ask, as the question correctly. You said that SMN shouldn't be on the hate list for slept mobs, and that BLM should cure themselves.

I went ahead and took the liberty to add your exact quote to the thread.

[Korpg]

Taken from the challenge thread:


Because SMN is a SUPPORT JOB. Again, I'll list the things that make not curing inexcusable.

A. SMN has a huge MP pool. The largest MP pool in the game.
B. When using an avatar under favor, especially Diabolos, MP is not an issue. I get something like 5 refresh per tic with my gear under Diabolos favor, so it is VERY hard for me to run out of MP.
C. When using avatar's favor, the point is to NOT attack. If you attack, the favor buff resets.
D. More often than not, the WHMs are focused on keeping the tanks and DD alive. BLM are the secondary goal.
E. BLM have to constantly keep their enmity in check. If they don't, it's next to impossible to pull hate off of them in an emergency. Curing adds hate.

If you are in a party with BLM in an event, and you are being expected to give them refresh, not curing them is inexcusable and a sign of a bad SMN.

And in regards to auto attack, I said that my avatar shouldn't be attacking slept mobs unless I tell it to. That's a very simple AI fix.

A) So what if SMN has a huge MP pool? That means we get to use our avatars more often.
B) Without Avatar's Favor, I get 6 mp per tick back, 8 mp per tick back on the same day/weather if needed. Only thing I would use is /RDM refresh. With my gear. Period.
C) Why would you need to use Favor first off? Only one of worth is Shiva's Favor, and even then, you can still do Heavenly Strike, abet a weaker version, but still.
D) My point exactly. If you are main healing an alliance, like you wish SMN can do by the sounds of this quoted text, why are you wasting your time and MP on the BLMs and not main healing the tank(s) and DDs? BLMs still have the ability to cure themselves. They have a spell, you might not know it, it only costs 21 mp, and it can give back up to 450 (mind you, day/weather can increase it further) HP while doing the same amount damage to the mob.
E) BLMs don't have an ability to lower their enmity, do they? Neither do THFs have the ability to take the enmity away from the BLMs. If there isn't a THF in the BLM party, then your alliance leader needs to learn how to make a party.

If you are in any event as a SMN, you should be expected to be a SMN, not a gimp healer or gimp buffer. You really need to talk to your leader who puts you in charge of being a SMN for events.

[Tarage]

A) So what if SMN has a huge MP pool? That means we get to use our avatars more often.

BPs have, AT BEST, a 45 second cooldown time. If you only use your SMN for SMN related skills and abilities, you are a horrible SMN.


B) Without Avatar's Favor, I get 6 mp per tick back, 8 mp per tick back on the same day/weather if needed. Only thing I would use is /RDM refresh. With my gear. Period.

Bullshit. Show me your gear list and I guarantee you are doing it wrong.


C) Why would you need to use Favor first off? Only one of worth is Shiva's Favor, and even then, you can still do Heavenly Strike, abet a weaker version, but still.

...You have no idea how to play SMN do you. No clue what so ever. Do you only play in Abyssea? Have you ever played a support role in Einherjar? Limbus? Dynamis? Kings?


D) My point exactly. If you are main healing an alliance, like you wish SMN can do by the sounds of this quoted text, why are you wasting your time and MP on the BLMs and not main healing the tank(s) and DDs? BLMs still have the ability to cure themselves. They have a spell, you might not know it, it only costs 21 mp, and it can give back up to 450 (mind you, day/weather can increase it further) HP while doing the same amount damage to the mob.

I am in awe. Seriously, I'm in awe. It's clear to me now that you don't do any major events. You have no idea that it's very common to place a SMN with a group of BLMs and a RDM or a BRD. The SMN and RDM or BRD support the BLMs by healing, buffing, and dealing with excess hate.


E) BLMs don't have an ability to lower their enmity, do they? Neither do THFs have the ability to take the enmity away from the BLMs. If there isn't a THF in the BLM party, then your alliance leader needs to learn how to make a party.

WHAT. Are you serious? If you are trolling me, bravo. This is the most hilarious thing I have ever heard. Wasting a THF in a BLM party. Wow.


If you are in any event as a SMN, you should be expected to be a SMN, not a gimp healer or gimp buffer. You really need to talk to your leader who puts you in charge of being a SMN for events.

You don't know how to play SMN. That is very clear to me now. You have absolutely no idea.

[Korpg]

....actually, and I believe everyone can agree with me, I think you are the troll.

Why do I come to that conclusion? You favor curing over using BPs. You just stated so yourself.

You also remarked that you rather stand around doing nothing with Diabolos and having his favor up for the BLMs than using Shiva. Because MP is hard to keep up now, isn't it?

Got to love the THF in the BLM party comment though.

[Tarage]

....actually, and I believe everyone can agree with me, I think you are the troll.

Why do I come to that conclusion? You favor curing over using BPs. You just stated so yourself.

You also remarked that you rather stand around doing nothing with Diabolos and having his favor up for the BLMs than using Shiva. Because MP is hard to keep up now, isn't it?

Got to love the THF in the BLM party comment though.

I do NOT favor curing over BPs. I know the time and place for them, and there are plenty of occasions where the goal of a SMN is not to attack at all. Most of the BLMs I have worked for want Diabolos. Again, this is something you would understand if you spent some time outside of Abyssea.

I can assure you, I am not a troll. I've been doing this job for a lot longer than you have.

[Korpg]

I do NOT favor curing over BPs. I know the time and place for them, and there are plenty of occasions where the goal of a SMN is not to attack at all. Most of the BLMs I have worked for want Diabolos. Again, this is something you would understand if you spent some time outside of Abyssea.

You are right, there are times you shouldn't have the avatar on the mob, that doesn't mean you can't use a BP on the mob. Guess you didn't know this, but the damage caused by the merited BPs, they don't give TP....so you are basically handing out free damage without retribution.

On a side note, do you solo as SMN? Have you killed any NMs? I'll give you a challenge, since you gave me one.

Go kill Vouivre and get a SS of him near death by yourself, that is an easy NM to kill with moderate type skill. That would at least give you some weight for your argument.

[Tarage]

You are right, there are times you shouldn't have the avatar on the mob, that doesn't mean you can't use a BP on the mob. Guess you didn't know this, but the damage caused by the merited BPs, they don't give TP....so you are basically handing out free damage without retribution.

You're again missing the point of Avatar's Favor. Let me explain this to you one more time. Quoting the wiki page:

* Determining the time that Favor has been active is based upon the lowest time of the following three conditions:
* 1) Activating Avatar's Favor
* 2) Summoning an Avatar
* 3) Any Blood Pact.

#3 is the important one. Using a Blood Pact causes the effect of the favor to drop. Therefor, if you want to get the most out of your favor, you want to blood pact as little as possible. Since when I have Diabolos out I am using Wards every 3 minutes, it's negligible. However if I were attacking every 45 seconds like you suggest, it would have a much bigger effect.


On a side note, do you solo as SMN? Have you killed any NMs? I'll give you a challenge, since you gave me one.

Go kill Vouivre and get a SS of him near death by yourself, that is an easy NM to kill with moderate type skill. That would at least give you some weight for your argument.

I solo quite a bit. I soloed much of WotG, as well as various other NMs. Most recently I soloed the KCNM The Palborough Project, something not soloed before according to the Wiki. You'll notice the suggested number of people is 2 or more.

I'll go try to solo that dragon. I'll post back if I succeed or fail, but it doesn't change the validity of my argument. The numbers don't lie.

[Tarage]

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/2363/pol2011072901391487.png
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/865/pol2011072901465215.png
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/2852/pol2011072901563060.png
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http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9688/pol2011072901575915.png

There you have it. To be honest, the annoying part wasn't the NM but the bombs. I tried to kite him back to the jungle entrance twice but it seems like he despawns. I wasn't paying that much attention so maybe he just lost hate. Definitely an endurance fight with his regen, but once I switched to pred claws it wasn't that difficult.

Also, I talked to a THF friend of mine and she thought the idea of a THF being used to control BLM hate as silly. She said that her ability works well for a single BLM or a DD, but not a group of them. That and it's a waste of her talents.

[Korpg]

#3 is the important one. Using a Blood Pact causes the effect of the favor to drop. Therefor, if you want to get the most out of your favor, you want to blood pact as little as possible. Since when I have Diabolos out I am using Wards every 3 minutes, it's negligible. However if I were attacking every 45 seconds like you suggest, it would have a much bigger effect.


You forget that if you BP after a full favor effect, your favor goes back up to max in a matter of seconds. Sure you lose some MAB from the avatar, which is huge for merited BPs, but if you only use the BPs to do damage (not assaulting) every 45 seconds after you have full favor, then you will keep full favor up most of the time. Just don't back-to-back BP.

Also, grats on beating that NM, you at least have some talent of a soloist. Now, how do you think you could have beaten that NM if you took away the auto-attack function of the avatar like you are suggesting?

[Tarage]

You forget that if you BP after a full favor effect, your favor goes back up to max in a matter of seconds. Sure you lose some MAB from the avatar, which is huge for merited BPs, but if you only use the BPs to do damage (not assaulting) every 45 seconds after you have full favor, then you will keep full favor up most of the time. Just don't back-to-back BP.

I already said my BP was being used for buffing. That defeats your argument right there.


Also, grats on beating that NM, you at least have some talent of a soloist. Now, how do you think you could have beaten that NM if you took away the auto-attack function of the avatar like you are suggesting?

Yes. I was using alternate corners, but even then by the time I got Garuda up the NM would be at me anyway, so more often than not I would BP before Garuda could even land a melee attack.

And you are still missing my point. In no way am I saying auto-attack should be taken away. But you are a loon if you believe that having an avatar attack a sleeping mob that you have never told your avatar to attack in the first place is a good thing.

[Korpg]

I already said my BP was being used for buffing. That defeats your argument right there.


So don't do them back to back, wait a second or 2 for your favor to go back to full before you use another BP.



And you are still missing my point. In no way am I saying auto-attack should be taken away. But you are a loon if you believe that having an avatar attack a sleeping mob that you have never told your avatar to attack in the first place is a good thing.

Therein lies the problem. Putting a stay command would take away the avatar's automatically attacking the mobs to save our lives. Unless you think that SE will get it right and have it so the avatar won't attack the mob that is beating the crap out of you.

[Malamasala]

The only time an avatar will auto-attack any monster is if, and only if, the Summoner is on the top of the hate list.

This is actually wrong. I've yet to figure out the exact behavior, but I've seen more than a fair deal of "Now avatar runs and hits mob, but mob is chasing someone else". Last time actually was last week during voidwatch when my ifrit ran off to "Save me" while Havahava or whats his name was walking around killing others after tanks had died.

That is unless by "top" you meant something like "top 5" in which case you wouldn't be wrong, potentially. In any case the coding for Summoner is very random and one usually has to wonder if it is a bug or just crazy coding.

[Arciel]

This is actually wrong. I've yet to figure out the exact behavior, but I've seen more than a fair deal of "Now avatar runs and hits mob, but mob is chasing someone else". Last time actually was last week during voidwatch when my ifrit ran off to "Save me" while Havahava or whats his name was walking around killing others after tanks had died.

That is unless by "top" you meant something like "top 5" in which case you wouldn't be wrong, potentially. In any case the coding for Summoner is very random and one usually has to wonder if it is a bug or just crazy coding.

lol... just no.

what korpg said is absolutely correct.

Avatars auto-attack the moment the Summoner hits the top of the hate list, even if for a split second, which means to say they don't necessarily have to exhibit obvious actions against the Summoner at all. The avatars just know it.

However, once they are set in motion, they won't stop unless you command them to do so. In such cases of instantaneous hate shift, you'll have no problems retreating the avatar. But if main hate is still solidly held by the SMN, you're really not going to be able to retreat the avatar properly, if even at all.

[Malamasala]

We need someone to go out and perform these experiments. Need SMN, SCH, SCH, SCH, BLM.

Sleep > Libra > cure 3/4 > libra > avatar smack > libra

Assuming libra doesn't get enmity by boatloads.

[Tarage]

Therein lies the problem. Putting a stay command would take away the avatar's automatically attacking the mobs to save our lives. Unless you think that SE will get it right and have it so the avatar won't attack the mob that is beating the crap out of you.

What planet do you live on? How does adding a SEPERATE command somehow take away another? And yes, I have faith in SE because I have paid for this game for over 7 years. If you don't like the game you play, leave.

The point here is that this is a problem. Even if you don't have a command, just fix it so Avatars don't attack sleeping mobs. It's not that difficult.

[Arciel]

What planet do you live on? How does adding a SEPERATE command somehow take away another?

It's a very simple concept really. It takes away from another because the first one in question is automatically triggered and really isnt a 'command' per se.

If you want to have only 1 command to force-stay the pet, then automatic triggering cannot occur, otherwise this stay command will be useless. In other words, if you want to effectively add a stay command without with a means to reinstate auto-attack to its proper usefulness, you're either going to need 2 commands, or adjustment to existing commands that will affect this auto-attack

[Tarage]

It's a very simple concept really. It takes away from another because the first one in question is automatically triggered and really isnt a 'command' per se.

If you want to have only 1 command to force-stay the pet, then automatic triggering cannot occur, otherwise this stay command will be useless. In other words, if you want to effectively add a stay command without with a means to reinstate auto-attack to its proper usefulness, you're either going to need 2 commands, or adjustment to existing commands that will affect this auto-attack

Then how about fixing it so Avatar's don't auto-attack sleeping mobs? Who even wants their avatars auto-attacking sleeping mobs?

[Korpg]

Then how about fixing it so Avatar's don't auto-attack sleeping mobs? Who even wants their avatars auto-attacking sleeping mobs?

You are still wanting to take away the best part of being a SMN.

The only way for an avatar to attack any mobs without being told to is when the SMN is on the top of the hate list for that mob. When you figure that out, then you will know how to not have your avatar hit sleeping mobs. Simple as that.

[Tarage]

You are still wanting to take away the best part of being a SMN.

The only way for an avatar to attack any mobs without being told to is when the SMN is on the top of the hate list for that mob. When you figure that out, then you will know how to not have your avatar hit sleeping mobs. Simple as that.

Even though quite a few BLM told you, you still ignore the cure factor. Thanks for plugging your ears. Appreciate it.

[Korpg]

Even though quite a few BLM told you, you still ignore the cure factor. Thanks for plugging your ears. Appreciate it.

A few more BLMs told you that the BLM would cure themselves to save themselves, and that the WHM, not the SMN, should be main healing everyone.

[Malamasala]

Then how about fixing it so Avatar's don't auto-attack sleeping mobs? Who even wants their avatars auto-attacking sleeping mobs?

Nobody, except Korpg who enjoys playing the devils advocate to get post counts.

[Korpg]

Because post counts really matter?

But I expect you of all people Mala to know how to not have the avatar attack sleeping mobs....heck, I even expect Dallas, and he isn't a SMN, to know how to not get on top of the hate list.

[Arciel]

Dallas typically drops off the hate list every now and then, lol.

[Tarage]

You are as bad as Dallas Korpg. Go away troll.

[Korpg]

You are as bad as Dallas Korpg. Go away troll.

Because I think that you have a bad idea and have given your the reason why I think your idea is a bad one?

[Tarage]

Because I think that you have a bad idea and have given your the reason why I think your idea is a bad one?

You stated yourself that there is never a situation in which you would want an avatar to auto-attack a sleeping mob, therefor you have no reason to object to that aspect being fixed. You are arguing to argue.

Go away troll.

[Malamasala]

Because post counts really matter?

But I expect you of all people Mala to know how to not have the avatar attack sleeping mobs....heck, I even expect Dallas, and he isn't a SMN, to know how to not get on top of the hate list.

I know how to avoid it. But that is like going over to the PUP forums and entering their 200+ posts long thread about Puppet AI and say "But simply do not fight monsters who cast debuffs. AI problem with -na spell over cures solved! It was never any issue to begin with! Just 100% of all PUPs being idiots"

Go ahead. I'll wait for your return. We'll have plenty laughs at PUPs who don't know how to avoid AI issues.

[Tarage]

He's a troll. Ignore him and move alone.

[Korpg]

You stated yourself that there is never a situation in which you would want an avatar to auto-attack a sleeping mob, therefor you have no reason to object to that aspect being fixed. You are arguing to argue.

Go away troll.

You don't understand. The only way for SE to "fix" your problem is to take away the auto-aggression of avatars when the SMN is on top of the hate list. Basically, you are asking SE to take away the aspect of SMN that allows most SMNs to solo, including you when you killed that Dragon NM in Ifrit's Cauldron. Ask yourself this, how can you have beaten that dragon if you had to assault every time you had to resummon your avatar? Do you think that you could have survived the hit(s) each time because the avatar couldn't automatically hit the NM?

Maybe there is another reason why avatars hit sleeping mobs. Maybe they aren't doing it because the mobs are sleeping *gasp* Learn from your mistakes instead of asking SE to solve your problems for you.

[Tarage]

You don't understand. The only way for SE to "fix" your problem is to take away the auto-aggression of avatars when the SMN is on top of the hate list. Basically, you are asking SE to take away the aspect of SMN that allows most SMNs to solo, including you when you killed that Dragon NM in Ifrit's Cauldron. Ask yourself this, how can you have beaten that dragon if you had to assault every time you had to resummon your avatar? Do you think that you could have survived the hit(s) each time because the avatar couldn't automatically hit the NM?

Maybe there is another reason why avatars hit sleeping mobs. Maybe they aren't doing it because the mobs are sleeping *gasp* Learn from your mistakes instead of asking SE to solve your problems for you.

Once again arguing to argue. You are wrong, and don't know anything about game design or game programming. If PUP pets can be taught not to cast silence on mobs that don't have MP, SMN pets can be taught not to auto-attack sleeping mobs. It isn't an all or nothing thing. Programming AI can be very flexible. It's called a state machine. Look it up some time. It would be very easy to create a 'Mob is asleep' state as well as a 'Mob is awake' state and have two different auto-attack behaviors associated to them. And before you start arguing that then avatars would never be able to hit slept mobs, this state would only apply to the first auto-attack, and not from a separate state using assault. I've made state machines and not only is what I am asking to do possible, but it's only a few lines of code.

But you never will admit to being wrong, even when presented with evidence proving you are. Go away troll.

[Korpg]

You realize that it would take a whole lot of work for something that can be solved by the player's intelligence.

There is already a solution to not having the avatars attack the sleeping mob, why should SE have to fix this problem if you are the only one unable to learn from your own mistakes?

Don't
Be
On
Top
Of
The
Hate
List

It is as simple as that.

[Tarage]

You realize that it would take a whole lot of work for something that can be solved by the player's intelligence.

There is already a solution to not having the avatars attack the sleeping mob, why should SE have to fix this problem if you are the only one unable to learn from your own mistakes?

Don't
Be
On
Top
Of
The
Hate
List

It is as simple as that.

I'm not the only one who thinks it's a problem.

Ever notice one of the tags for this topic is "korpg shits again"? People don't like you, don't agree with you, don't want you around. Go away troll.

[Korpg]

I'm not the only one who thinks it's a problem.

Ever notice one of the tags for this topic is "korpg shits again"? People don't like you, don't agree with you, don't want you around. Go away troll.

You don't even know what a troll is, because you call me a troll, yet use a troll as an example as somebody who doesn't like me.

So what if a few people don't like me, does that hurt me at all?

[Arciel]

>_>; bickering? srsly?

some people like it, some people don't.
in which case it isn't a real problem because some (in fact many) people can still use it in a positive way.

Also I'm of the belief that its better with than without it.

You can control a situation where your avatar 'misbehaves' simply be releasing it or finding some way to shed main hate - thru a THF or having someone else in the party do something to gain enmity. And in such situations Retreat works too.
Or in the more extreme case, wear some Enmity - gear. Hate is the main mechanic at play, and there are so many ways to control it.

However, you can never get your avatar to automatically attack a mob that is chasing you - not from any distance, and not without using a JA that may be putting yourself in potential risk due to range or hate/aggro issues.

In other words, its a unique ability that SMN has been given, and is meant to be a feature of the job.
Between the 2 sides of the argument, you can easily solve the issue of waking slept mobs without ever touching auto-attack mechanics, but can never auto-attack in any other way.

[Tarage]

Never heard of the phrase "It's not a bug, it's a feature" huh?

The point is, enough people don't like it. You can claim that we are playing SMN wrong, but it's the same as saying "Well, PUPs should just fight mobs with no NP. It's a feature of their job!"

It's a problem. People see it as a problem. I am not the only one.

[Korpg]

Never heard of the phrase "It's not a bug, it's a feature" huh?

The point is, enough people don't like it. You can claim that we are playing SMN wrong, but it's the same as saying "Well, PUPs should just fight mobs with no NP. It's a feature of their job!"

It's a problem. People see it as a problem. I am not the only one.

You are the only one who sees this as a problem.

They would "like" for avatars to not attack sleeping mobs, but they have figured out how to not have the avatars attack the sleeping mobs period. Only you haven't figured out, and it strongly seems like you won't ever figure it out, even though everyone has told you how to do it.

Don't cure bomb the BLMs after they sleep mobs. It is as simple as that. Either that or quit SMN and go as WHM.

[Arciel]

The point is, enough people don't like it.

sure doesn't seem that way, even in here.

[Tarage]

You are the only one who sees this as a problem.

They would "like" for avatars to not attack sleeping mobs, but they have figured out how to not have the avatars attack the sleeping mobs period. Only you haven't figured out, and it strongly seems like you won't ever figure it out, even though everyone has told you how to do it.

Don't cure bomb the BLMs after they sleep mobs. It is as simple as that. Either that or quit SMN and go as WHM.

"My way of playing SMN is the only way. If you don't play it my way, you are wrong. Everyone agrees with me."

Let's quote some people then, who 'agree with you'.


Avatars Auto-attack an Enemy that is aggressive to the SMN, Meaning if you're on top of the hate list the Avatar will go after said mob. Its not as simple as "Dont do it".

Its not a giant problem but it is noticeable in group scenarios, especially in places like New Dynamis, or the like.


Eh! If I'm BLM/RDM or BLM/SCH in Einherjar, SMN/WHM has a tier of Cure over me. I'd rather have them heal me after I get beaten on/sleepga than have to Cure 3 myself twice as many times, and it's not hard to argue that casting Cure on me is likely the most useful thing they could be doing at that moment. There are situations where it would be nice for SMN to not have to choose between keeping a pet out (like giving Diabolos's Favor to Black Mages) and being able to heal whoever (like healing Black Mages).


Actually Korpg, it's a stupid design flaw that shouldn't have made it past RotZ beta almost a decade ago.


for avatar auto attack: just add a new command like /autotarget but pet oriented you can turn on-off


I wouldn't mind some slight AI update to make them avoid slept mobs. Shouldn't be that hard to program.


To be fair, Tarage does have a point. Avatar's auto-attacking monsters is great, but you should have the ability to turn it off or a Stay command. It's not a huge problem, but there are times when it can be annoying.


I hated summoning my avatars back in the old dynamis days after the blm had done sleepgas on big pulls and I had hate from curing. only to summon an avatar and have it float off and start waking things up and watching blm drop like flies. Though.... I was a master of MPK in those respects :D

That's from just two threads. I could go dredge up more, but my point is made. I am NOT alone in this. I am NOT the only one who thinks this is a problem. But this has never been about that has it? Even with so many people telling you they don't like it, you don't care. Even if it is a legitimate suggestion, you don't care. You just want to argue, and increase your post count, and fluff your ego.

That is why you are a troll. Go away.

[Korpg]

"My way of playing SMN is the only way. If you don't play it my way, you are wrong. Everyone agrees with me."

Let's quote some people then, who 'agree with you'.



Obviously reading is not your strong suit. Not once did I say that my way or the highway. That was Dallas. What I am saying is that you are asking for "solution" to a problem that A) isn't a problem for most because most SMNs are actually smarter than you and don't curebomb the BLMs so they can be on top of the hate list and B) will create a bigger problem because it takes away the best thing about a SMN, especially when it comes to soloing NMs.

I bolded the main points of my argument for when you tl:dr. Like you have been doing.

That's from just two threads. I could go dredge up more, but my point is made. I am NOT alone in this. I am NOT the only one who thinks this is a problem.

Karbuncle and Byrth also stated that the problem lies with the SMN being on top of the hate list. You had to cut those out of the quotes because they would hurt your argument in the first place. hiko was making a suggestion, not agreeing with you. Mala thinks that spirits should be updated to be better pets than avatars, so any of his arguments are flawed anyway. Sasaraixx wants a Stay command, which SE specifically said that they won't do for SMN, and that Stay will be a BST only trait. Tannlore has no idea, like you, about enmity control or hate issues, and it shows from that quote you made. He, as do you, think that avatars just suddenly start attacking slept mobs, which most people, not just SMNs alone, know that is not the case.


But this has never been about that has it? Even with so many people telling you they don't like it, you don't care. Even if it is a legitimate suggestion, you don't care. You just want to argue, and increase your post count, and fluff your ego.

That is why you are a troll. Go away.

If anything, the only one who is a troll, even by your definitions, is you. But you are also a noob, which by definition is: somebody who refuses to learn and blindly accepts the first thing he sees as truth.

You are the one who can't learn anything about hate control. You are the one who can't understand your own definitions, you are the one who can't even read without somebody having to bold the main points for you. You are also the one who take people's words and try to twist it for your own cause.

Also, saying that everyone agrees with you while nobody agrees with me is false also. Not only have I talked with people on this forum, I have talked to actual SMNs in this game, ones who know what they are doing, ones who have their own playstyle, and ones who's playstyle are very similar to yours. I told them your side of the argument, including just making it so avatars won't auto-attack sleeping mobs, but still attack everything else, and they all agreed with me.

Your suggestion is a lazy-man's suggestion because since you can't figure out hate controls, you want to bend around your problem so you don't have to learn. That is your main problem: instead of fixing it, you make it so people has to work around your problem for you.

But that is not how SE works. They are not going to make it so avatars are going to not attack sleeping mobs. They are either going to do nothing or take away the whole auto-aggression aspect of avatars. If they listen to you, you are going to make 75% of the SMN population (not those who burned, those who actually leveled the job from scratch) angry because you took away the only aspect of being able to solo harder NMs away from them, all because you are too lazy to figure out a simple puzzle.

[Tarage]

I love how you keep assuming I don't know about hate control, or how not to get on top of the hate list. What you refuse to acknowledge, and what all those people have said, is that while you CAN do it, it is very annoying and in some situations detrimental to the party as a whole.

I cut the quotes so I wouldn't make a 300 line tl;dr. Every single quote I quoted was one that agreed that something needed to be done. I took nothing out of context, and you can even click back to each one and see that I'm not lying.

I love how you speak for SE too. "They won't do your fix and even if they did they would screw it up for everyone." You are such a happy joyful person that you have to bring everyone else down too huh. Yeah, keep assuming that I know no one in game. Keep assuming that they don't agree with me. Keep being wrong.

But hey, if you honestly don't believe that SE will do anything about my idea, and you recognize that there is no instance where having an avatar auto-attack a sleeping mob on it's own is a good thing, why keep arguing with me about it? Why not prove that you aren't a troll and walk away? You can't. And don't say "Why don't you walk away yourself", because the reason I won't walk away is I want this fix. A fix that doesn't harm you in the slightest. But do keep inventing imaginary arguments. First you misunderstand what I want, then you lie and claim that what I want will harm SMN, then even after you admit it won't you claim that it's just the lazy man's fix. You can't just let me have my suggestion, because you are a troll.

Go.
Away.
Troll.

[Malamasala]

Mala thinks that spirits should be updated to be better pets than avatars, so any of his arguments are flawed anyway.

More like I'm asking for spirits to be better than puppets. But I'm used to discussing these things with people who exaggerate everything. Go ahead, claim I want G.Axe A+ skill while you are at it, since I think SMNs should melee.