Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner [Archive] - Page 3

Zemarin

09-01-2011, 03:35 PM

People really expected summoner to get something useful? At the risk of sounding like an utter troll you ppl have got to be delusional....SE always promises summoner love and never delivers (much).
If atomos is really 2hr onri i dont see how it would compete against odin and cait sith sounds cute but then well look at diabolos (whose the last true summon; but I'll try to remain optimistic.) When it comes to terrestrial Avatars I highly doubt they will put one any more reliable than carbuncle, or as mp efficient as Fenrir. (again we'll never know till they actually release it, but I once may assume.)
I personally really don't think SE knows what they are doing with summoner at all, esp when it comes to celestial avatars~ All the BP's added from 80+ on CELESTIAL Avatars are only really useful in rare situations... Was anyone really expectiing Squall to be any different?

also Mala ur fight for spirits, I think, is a lost cause; no matter how much u want them to update spirits I doubt they will. SE (obviously) admitted on the first post they wants us to choose AVATARS BASED ON THEIR ELEMENT. Therefore SE's Primary Agenda = to make the "avatars" what the spirits were 'supposed' to be. SO there's really no need for spirits to do anything more then they do now, besides you can't really sit here and compare puppetmaster's toy to spirits... If spirits were as powerful/smart as pups toy then that would definitely not be fair seeing how low maint/expendable spirits are compared to a puppet. Also Summoner was made on the idea of the avatar being controlled directly (tho oddly enough bst does it better), in short, non insulting, statement all I can really proclaim is you need to learn to like & use your avatars... or go play something else?

Korpg

09-01-2011, 10:44 PM

also Mala ur fight for spirits, I think, is a lost cause; no matter how much u want them to update spirits I doubt they will. SE (obviously) admitted on the first post they wants us to choose AVATARS BASED ON THEIR ELEMENT. Therefore SE's Primary Agenda = to make the "avatars" what the spirits were 'supposed' to be. SO there's really no need for spirits to do anything more then they do now, besides you can't really sit here and compare puppetmaster's toy to spirits... If spirits were as powerful/smart as pups toy then that would definitely not be fair seeing how low maint/expendable spirits are compared to a puppet. Also Summoner was made on the idea of the avatar being controlled directly (tho oddly enough bst does it better), in short, non insulting, statement all I can really proclaim is you need to learn to like & use your avatars... or go play something else?

Mala was told all of that before. You know what his response is? "You are a troll and I'm blacklisting you because you don't agree with me!"

Zemarin

09-02-2011, 03:45 AM

Mala was told all of that before. You know what his response is? "You are a troll and I'm blacklisting you because you don't agree with me!"

I read some of it... honestly SE only acknowledgement of spirits was using them as a means to "gimp" elemental siphon way back when. Also if you take a close look you'll notice SE never really actually gone over summoner like it has other pet jobs, what I mean by that is that aside from adding gear, some BPs/wishy washy Job Abilities, and making atma work the way they do, SE has never actually enhanced Avatars nor summoner (the job), seeing as it took them this long to even consider lowering Blood Pact timer. And honestly they seem to be reluctant when it comes to touching summoners pet, they honestly feel everything on summoner can be fixed thru gear >_> so I dunno where that person even got that idea that spirits will learn better spells. <_< anyways a Japanese friend of mine once told me a long time ago SE never wanted summoner to play as prominent of a role as int he past hence, why summoner compared to other pet jobs in this game is so reserved.

Honestly in the past, with regards to smn, SE just proclaims crap and never follows thru with it.I honestly doubt that would change in the future.

Korpg

09-02-2011, 04:07 AM

I agree, SMN is in desperate need of a good buff, something in lines of Blood Rage for WARs or that new JA that SAMs are getting.

Malamasala

09-02-2011, 04:33 AM

Also Summoner was made on the idea of the avatar being controlled directly (tho oddly enough bst does it better), in short, non insulting, statement all I can really proclaim is you need to learn to like & use your avatars... or go play something else?

The point is still that I want to hear the official statement on this, and not just the opinions of random people. And that is pretty much it. Get confirmation that SE is trying to phase out spirits from the game.

I'm not expecting them to do anything about spirits, unless they first inform us, since I've asked about it.

Zemarin

09-02-2011, 05:18 AM

By implementing different stats for each avatar, we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited. There is a possibility of being able to alter the stats of avatars by equipping gear, but basically we would like avatars to be chosen based on their elements.

IF this isn't official enough mala i dunno what is hun... if your looking for devs to say "we are never updating your spirits" I doubt you will see it, but at the same time I don't see them saying much about updating them; it could be assumed that they WON'T. By a rule of the thumb SE HAS NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER in the pass EVER touched summons pets, so i dunno where you got the idea that they would.
I don't think dev's are dumb either its been months since spirits have NOT been casting the appropriate spells. They even went out their way to replace old elemental type mobs with newer ones in abyssea that cast newer spells, probably so summoners won't complain that an Earth elemental is using Stone V (even tho the ones in Ru aun are high enough to use it i have never seen em do it). I'm pretty sure its very intentional

Razushu

09-02-2011, 05:30 AM

The point is still that I want to hear the official statement on this, and not just the opinions of random people. And that is pretty much it. Get confirmation that SE is trying to phase out spirits from the game.

I'm not expecting them to do anything about spirits, unless they first inform us, since I've asked about it.

They're not trying to phase them out, they just never planned them to be a big part of high level Summoning. Everytime SE mentions SMN it's Avatars they talk about not spirits. That in itself is a fair indication of what they're planning with spirits. At the very least they're seen as fine as they are for the forseeable future, you shouldn't really need an official "stfu about spirits" to see that.

Soundwave

09-02-2011, 08:07 AM

They're not trying to phase them out, they just never planned them to be a big part of high level Summoning. Everytime SE mentions SMN it's Avatars they talk about not spirits. That in itself is a fair indication of what they're planning with spirits. At the very least they're seen as fine as they are for the forseeable future, you shouldn't really need an official "stfu about spirits" to see that.

I agree, I don't know what SE had originally intended for the use of spirits until E-Siphion came along.

Back on track...

There is a possibility of being able to alter the stats of avatars by equipping gear, but basically we would like avatars to be chosen based on their elements.

I think its been suggested that each avatar or selected ones needs a new BP's similar to Flaming Crush but a bit more potent for level 99.

Example 1...

Ifirit Level 99 BP:Rage
Volcanic Decimation (Two fold attack)
*First attack will deliver the physical attack
*Second attack will deliver a fire elemental attack (Similar to level 75 pacts.)

Example 2...

Ifirit Level 99 BP:Rage
Volcanic Decimation (Two fold attack)
*First attack will deliver the physical attack
*Second attack will deliver a fire elemental attack
**On the Second attack have it based off the avatars TP

Zemarin

09-02-2011, 08:13 AM

I just wish summons made light, That's all I care about.. everything else can go to hell.. Blood pact words were never THAT useful, i lvled summoner when there was no split BP and they were all on one list. That besides atma was summoners biggest updates, everything after that has done much of nothing to add to Summoner ... I had a similar Idea to urs with the melee Blood pacts that did magic damage as well... it would be nice :D

but on another note flaming crush suks so They'd definately put some power behind it.

Soundwave

09-02-2011, 08:16 AM

Malamasala

09-03-2011, 02:14 AM

They're not trying to phase them out, they just never planned them to be a big part of high level Summoning. Everytime SE mentions SMN it's Avatars they talk about not spirits. That in itself is a fair indication of what they're planning with spirits. At the very least they're seen as fine as they are for the forseeable future, you shouldn't really need an official "stfu about spirits" to see that.

The only thing it says is that they are working on avatars. It doesn't say anything about if they forgot about spirits. You know, because the definition of forgetting something is to not talk about it.

In my eyes Elemental Siphon was added to help you keep spirits out longer, to promote more spirit usage, but it backfired. You use it as an argument for spirits now having a purpose and need no further work, while I read it as someone once again failed at getting an update right. It is all a matter of how you want to look at it. And that is why I need official word on the subject. It can be interpreted any way you like, and it makes it uncertain.

And I'm still wondering why it takes Camate so long to just ask the question and get a simple "yes/no" answer. I guess he values those 5 seconds of Developer time that it would steal to ask.

Razushu

09-03-2011, 03:02 AM

The only thing it says is that they are working on avatars. It doesn't say anything about if they forgot about spirits. You know, because the definition of forgetting something is to not talk about it.

In my eyes Elemental Siphon was added to help you keep spirits out longer, to promote more spirit usage, but it backfired. You use it as an argument for spirits now having a purpose and need no further work, while I read it as someone once again failed at getting an update right. It is all a matter of how you want to look at it. And that is why I need official word on the subject. It can be interpreted any way you like, and it makes it uncertain.

And I'm still wondering why it takes Camate so long to just ask the question and get a simple "yes/no" answer. I guess he values those 5 seconds of Developer time that it would steal to ask.

Seeing as they only ever mention Avatars, it's fairly safe to assume that spirtits aren't on the fix list for thhe forseeable future. They don't need to forget about something not to talk about, they just need to have no intention of dealing with them.

Elemental Siphon makes much more sense, as just an ability that helps us regain lost MP(seeing as we are the most MP intensive job outthere), SE wanted to give us an ability to regulate our MP use, but one we couldn't spam in battle. Putting them on the spirits was the trade off for that ability, you get a large chunk of MP back every 5 minutes, but the catch is you need to have a spirit out to get it. Judging by the way the ability works it's more likely that the spirits are the condition of it rather than the reason for it. Your version(no offense) makes little sense, because it implies they wanted spirits>Avatars, which hasn't really been seen anywhere else in the history of SMN adjustments.

I think the reps pick the questions they ask carefully because they have a better view of what the devs are planning and as such can already tell whats the devs will and won't respond to.

Korpg

09-03-2011, 03:12 AM

The only thing it says is that they are working on avatars. It doesn't say anything about if they forgot about spirits. You know, because the definition of forgetting something is to not talk about it.

Your definition perhaps, but when things are working as intended, and do not need any additional increase in work, maybe they haven't forgotten, but perhaps they are finished with spirits in general. They may add one or two things to enhance the use of spirits, which I highly doubt, but they will never make spirits equal to or exceeding avatars, much less players in general.

In my eyes Elemental Siphon was added to help you keep spirits out longer, to promote more spirit usage, but it backfired. You use it as an argument for spirits now having a purpose and need no further work, while I read it as someone once again failed at getting an update right. It is all a matter of how you want to look at it. And that is why I need official word on the subject. It can be interpreted any way you like, and it makes it uncertain.

I think Razushu's version is more accurate. A quick way to recover MP, but the cost is associated with the lost of an avatar for about 10 seconds. If they really wanted Elemental Siphon to enhance spirits, wouldn't the amount of MP recovered be associated with the amount of time the spirit is out? Say, if you need a quick MP fix, you can use Elemental Siphon for ~200 MP but if you have the spirit out for 5 minutes, you can recover the max current MP (~500) you can recover. Then your version of events may hold true.

And I'm still wondering why it takes Camate so long to just ask the question and get a simple "yes/no" answer. I guess he values those 5 seconds of Developer time that it would steal to ask.

May it is because the answer is so obvious to everyone but you to even ask the question. Your question sounds exactly like the following question: What is the number to 911?

Malamasala

09-04-2011, 01:12 AM

I think the reps pick the questions they ask carefully because they have a better view of what the devs are planning and as such can already tell whats the devs will and won't respond to.

I don't know what kind of people they employ over there, but at my work I get happy each time someone drops by to ask a question that I'm able to answer and feel that I helped someone.

Spirits also happen to be a really hot topic. The majority of Summoners want to hear what will happen to spirits. The only ones saying "no thanks" are the people who fear that asking for spirits will somehow harm their chances at getting exactly what they want. Which is silly... do you see me sitting here complaining about all your questions "stealing my spirit question slot"?

(I only say that about the "How do I beat AV?" questions asked at festivals year after year)

Korpg

09-04-2011, 02:01 AM

Spirits also happen to be a really hot topic.

No it isn't. The only reason why Spirits keep getting brought up is because you keep bringing it up. You as in a singularity.

The majority of Summoners want to hear what will happen to spirits.

No they don't. Nobody but you has brought up spirits as a whole, and the people who expand on your ideas are doing that to shut you up. You do not speak for the majority of the playerbase, and most certainly not for the majority of playerbase who levels SMNs.

The only ones saying "no thanks" are the people who fear that asking for spirits will somehow harm their chances at getting exactly what they want.

You even don't listen to the people who oppose you in this limited viewpoint of yours. People have said "no thanks" to spirit updates for a variety of reasons (spirits are working as intended, there are more important things to fix on a SMN, spirits are not supposed to meet or exceed the power of avatars, etc).

Which is silly... do you see me sitting here complaining about all your questions "stealing my spirit question slot"?

There, you have admitted that you are the only person who even cares about spirits. If the above quotes were true as you stated, the bolded word would have been "our" instead of "my."

Also, the devs have specifically stated that the focus for SMNs will be avatars and not spirits.

How about unblacklisting people who don't share your viewpoint to get a real grasp on what people really want.

Razushu

09-04-2011, 02:12 AM

I don't know what kind of people they employ over there, but at my work I get happy each time someone drops by to ask a question that I'm able to answer and feel that I helped someone.

Spirits also happen to be a really hot topic. The majority of Summoners want to hear what will happen to spirits. The only ones saying "no thanks" are the people who fear that asking for spirits will somehow harm their chances at getting exactly what they want. Which is silly... do you see me sitting here complaining about all your questions "stealing my spirit question slot"?

(I only say that about the "How do I beat AV?" questions asked at festivals year after year)

Yeah but if the question is about something completely off topic or not on the current agenda, chances are it's not going to get an answer. You can't walk into a Pc repair shop and ask "how many calories are in a bagel?", sure someone may be able to answer it, but it's nothing to do with what they're working on, or plan to work on soon. Now imagine it was your job to forward questions, from the asker to this PC repair center, would you bother passing on that question?

They may be a hot topic, but I would say the communtity is spilt up 50/50 on them. Those of us saying spirits are fine, are saying it because... they are fine. An update to spirits is not needed, and I've yet to see one argument for spirits being adjusted that is a) worth the dev time it would take to implement, and b) could actually be a useful update.

It's not about stealing "question slots", it's about voicing my opinion(which is different to yours), so that SE sees ther is a sizeable portion of the SMN community that are happy with how spirits are, and would rather see real updates to the job. If we didn't post our differing opinions, SE could be dfolled into believing that SMNs's are 100% argeed on spirits needing a fix and waste time adjusting them in place of updates that will benefit SMN in very real ways.

Korpg

09-04-2011, 02:25 AM

It's not about stealing "question slots", it's about voicing my opinion(which is different to yours), so that SE sees ther is a sizeable portion of the SMN community that are happy with how spirits are, and would rather see real updates to the job. If we didn't post our differing opinions, SE could be dfolled into believing that SMNs's are 100% argeed on spirits needing a fix and waste time adjusting them in place of updates that will benefit SMN in very real ways.

Watch out Raz, I already pointed that out to both Dallas and Mala and they both blacklisted me because my viewpoints are different than theirs. Having an opinion might get you blacklisted too!

Razushu

09-04-2011, 08:46 PM

Watch out Raz, I already pointed that out to both Dallas and Mala and they both blacklisted me because my viewpoints are different than theirs. Having an opinion might get you blacklisted too!

That's never stopped me sharing my opinion before lol

Jerbob

09-04-2011, 09:26 PM

I would also like to see update elemental spirits, but I think we/SE need to start thinking creatively to bring the spirits back into the fold. On the one hand they could just give them access to Tier V spells and be done with it - perhaps fun to play around with but still ultimately a niche-use pet at best.

Alternatively we could ask for the best of both worlds and have a system where we can use them in tandem with Avatars to fix some of the problems that plague our job. Thinking creatively! Perhaps something like this:

1. JA that lets us have an Avatar and free spirit summoned at the same time, with the spirit's spellcasting capped in level
2. Spirit doesn't move into range of mobs but casts spells and gains TP whenever our Avatar does, or BPs are used
3. Spirit TP can be used as a resource for new pet commands that do a variety of things like conserve MP, reduce BP delay, increase Ward potency, increase avatar Accuracy, give spikes/en- effects etc etc etc.

Building a new system like that would help solve the issue with spirits whilst keeping the focus on Avatars, give us the new tools we need to be competitive, makes meleeing Avatars more worthwhile, and has in-built limitations (TP gain, recast timer on new pet commands etc) that stop SE pulling the "overpowered" card or building some atrocity like Avatar's Favor again. Start the system at level 20 and scale it from there and Summoner's poor performance at low levels is fixed too.

I don't know, just an example, but the point still stands. Instead of "Give spirits more spells and give us a BP delay reduction JA", creatively blending all our needs into one system might be more fun, practical and effective.

Covenant

09-04-2011, 10:41 PM

Malamasala

09-04-2011, 11:44 PM

No it isn't. The only reason why Spirits keep getting brought up is because you keep bringing it up. You as in a singularity.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2398-Spirit-spell-update
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2089-New-elemental-spirits-Plz-Phys-BPs
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1666-Question-regarding-spirits-spell-list(Me though)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4427-The-woes-of-a-starting-summoner(Less about spirits, but points out new Summoners try spirits and go "wtf?")
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6312-Elemental-Spirits
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8817-Summoner.-New-JA-Elemental-Purge
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10198-Update-Alliance-Avatar-rewards-new-elemental-mitts-and-Elemental-Spirit-Staves
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11925-Jobability-Suggestion-fixes-SMN
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12100-Avatar-AI-problems-that-need-to-be-addressed(Not focused on spirits, but mention them as a problem)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10434-Summoner-Updating-Avatars-Elemental-Spirits.-Blood-pacts-wards-and-spell-list
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12700-Compendium-of-Summoner-Job-Issues
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12849-Spirits-Re-make
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12918-New-idea-for-Spirits...

No they don't. Nobody but you has brought up spirits as a whole, and the people who expand on your ideas are doing that to shut you up. You do not speak for the majority of the playerbase, and most certainly not for the majority of playerbase who levels SMNs.

I speak for the threads above. Who do you speak for? All the threads I didn't link? Sorry, but those aren't "anti spirit" threads, they are just threads on other topics. (Mainly BP timers, wards, new avatars, all 3 which has been answered in the thread btw, leaving only spirits as the unanswered big question)

You even don't listen to the people who oppose you in this limited viewpoint of yours.

I listen to everyone except Korpg and Raz, two people who have proved they do not listen to my viewpoint so why should I listen to theirs? Funny enough that usually means there is nobody left saying anything negative about spirits.

Also, the devs have specifically stated that the focus for SMNs will be avatars and not spirits.

You have no idea how long that perspective is though. For all you know, it could be talking just this september update. I want to hear if there are any plans at all for spirits, or if they are OFFICIALLY counted as junk code.

Razushu

09-04-2011, 11:56 PM

I'm not really hot on ONLY spirits. I'm my thread, I tried to remind people of the original split between spirits and avatars(namely, spirits nukers and avatars physicals/elemental strikes). Then tried to explain how SE would need to backtrack both, all the way to lvl 1 to "fix" them.

Except that Avatars get nukes too, and as far as I can tell they always had them(unless I'm missing something), so the spilt is more early and later on pets.

Equating spirits to a single tier spell and having Summoners "move" beyond, much like a BLM moving beyond tier 1 or 2 of fire is disingenuous at best and outright lie at worst. Spirits automatically evolved as were intended by SE up until 75 and "forgotten". It was both easier( programming-wise) to place all the burden on avatars, since the casting system used for spirits were insanely complicated.

Thats exactly how they work though, usable at low levels, get surpassed by Avatars, just like low tier nukes. They weren't "forgotten" past 75 Se stopped adding elementals to the game past 75 cap(aside from one or two like the tII VNMs in abys). The spirit casting system isn't that complicated, pretty simple actually, day/weather and smn mag skl effects the cast time.... thats it. Avatars get all the burden, because that was the plan, pretty obviously.

One of the worst arguments people like kkropg and ruzushu, used is the same one "Morpheus" used when explaining "the matrix" to "Neo"...namely, the element siphon/BATTERY argument. To use their analogy, BLM should be able to cast fire I ands gain back mp..because those are battery spells. THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, AS DOES HAVING SPIrITS SIMPLY FOR ELEMeNT SIPHON.

You're argument here is as silly as your attempt at angering me by purposefully getting my name wrong Cunvtant. SE gave us a reason to buy the spirits with Elemental Siphon when Avatars became easily attainable. As it is now spirits are better off than other jobs early stage tools because they were given something, they were made the condition of our MP management tool.

Whining over, SE should simply state their intentions. Using "body language" and assumptions, are never valid arguments for something. I'm still convinced, the problem is as I stated and others reflected, is that any changes introduced to normal spirits would also affect mob summoner spirits and random elementals. Imagine increasing a melee/def of a pet spirits and having the same done to those mob types. Mob pets would shoot up to IT and elementals to ITT.

They don't need to state their intentions even though they pretty much have, it shouold be fairly clear to all involved that considering they have done nothing to spirits since Elemental Siphon was implemented, that they have no plans for the forseeable future to do anything to spirits. i agree with you here that any change they made to spirits would probably be reflected in the coding for enemy spirits(it's probably the only reason our spirits were getting new spells up to the point they stopped adding higher level elementals), and on this score it's unlikely to happen because spirits are meant to be fairly weak pets as seen in how they're used pretty exclusively by lower level and regular mob SMNs.

This is why I support a tier 2 spirit, NM spirit, VNM spirit, or hybrid spirit suggestions. New programming for these pets won't change the "old" programming for old spirits. Plus, SE could eliminate enfeeb cycles...unless they introduced spirit ONLY newer tiers of enfeebs, such as poison 3 or slow 3. Once enfeeb cycles eliminated, spirits could forces on casting strong tier IV and above on par with an automaton. Factoring in normal recast timers for tier IV and above spells, with an increased recast timer of spirits, could limit over nuking issues people are afraid of.

After all another concern would be a summoner going down their elemental spirit list one by one and having each cast a single tier IV and above spell.

Why more pets though? We have more than enough as it is 13(soon) Avatars and 8 spirits. Summoner has more than enough pets to get the job done as it stands, we don't need more pets. Our biggest problem is speed not variety, and when the new ability to increase BP frequency hits(provided its a good one) that won't even be a problem anymore.

NONE of these spirit suggestions would limit an avatars growth, if as I suggested SE forces on "physical" Bloodpacts with a multi-effect use such as Ramuh's shocking strike...which is AoE, dmamge AND strong paralyze effect. A mix of avatars physical/effect strike would eliminate a spirits need to enfeeb and allow them to focus on MAGIC damage. Having spirits focus on MAGIC damage, would free up Bloodpacts and wards to be used for increased physical/multi-effect strikes. Having spirits focus on single target nukes, while avatars use AoE elemental magic would further individualize both and make them unique. It's a win, win for both spirits and avatars for players if SE would adapt my "vision" and "fixes".

An adjustment to spirits would limit Avatars growth simply by the fact the devs would be working on spirits instead of Avatars. Magic damage is already covered.... by Avatars, as is Physical, and buffs, and healing, there's nothing left for spirits aside from debuffing, which ironically is what the pro-spirit camp hates about them. You're idea to spilt physical and nukes among Avatars and spirits is fine, until you realise that you'll only be using one at a time anyway, and chances are you're using either magic or physical because your target is weak to one, so you're not going to bother with the other.

Malamasala

09-05-2011, 12:15 AM

They may be a hot topic, but I would say the communtity is spilt up 50/50 on them. Those of us saying spirits are fine, are saying it because... they are fine.

It is actually 50/50 as in some don't care, others care. The question is why anyone should listen to those who do not care? The only reason you say they are fine, is because you have no intention of using them outside of siphon.

Also I'm having a hard time remembering anyone else than Korpg and Razushu that said spirits were fine. We even have TWO other people here saying spirit updates would be welcome. That makes us 3 vs 2 until you get your friends in here to support you.

Razushu

09-05-2011, 12:45 AM

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2398-Spirit-spell-update
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2089-New-elemental-spirits-Plz-Phys-BPs
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1666-Question-regarding-spirits-spell-list(Me though)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4427-The-woes-of-a-starting-summoner(Less about spirits, but points out new Summoners try spirits and go "wtf?")
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6312-Elemental-Spirits
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8817-Summoner.-New-JA-Elemental-Purge
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10198-Update-Alliance-Avatar-rewards-new-elemental-mitts-and-Elemental-Spirit-Staves
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11925-Jobability-Suggestion-fixes-SMN
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12100-Avatar-AI-problems-that-need-to-be-addressed(Not focused on spirits, but mention them as a problem)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10434-Summoner-Updating-Avatars-Elemental-Spirits.-Blood-pacts-wards-and-spell-list
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12700-Compendium-of-Summoner-Job-Issues
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12849-Spirits-Re-make
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12918-New-idea-for-Spirits...

I speak for the threads above. Who do you speak for? All the threads I didn't link? Sorry, but those aren't "anti spirit" threads, they are just threads on other topics. (Mainly BP timers, wards, new avatars, all 3 which has been answered in the thread btw, leaving only spirits as the unanswered big question)

I listen to everyone except Korpg and Raz, two people who have proved they do not listen to my viewpoint so why should I listen to theirs? Funny enough that usually means there is nobody left saying anything negative about spirits.

You have no idea how long that perspective is though. For all you know, it could be talking just this september update. I want to hear if there are any plans at all for spirits, or if they are OFFICIALLY counted as junk code.

I listen, but I've yet to see a valid reason why spirits should be updated. Show me one and honestly I would be happy to back it, until then I'm going to keep voicing my opposing opinion. You know I listen because I always respond to at least most of the points you make in your posts, I just disagree unfortunately.

Nobody knows or is claiming to know, but it's definitely going past the septtember update, considering how they've told us what we can expect in the manifesto and are yet to deliver on anything in it. So thats at least two updates coming where it's highly unlikely spirits will be looked at.

As for your linksa fair few aren't even asking for fixing to spirits, ones just looking for better rewards from waking the beast and the other is just venting on how hard SMN can be to play at low levels, about 5/13 aren't actually asking for fixes to spirits. , Three have the same Author, and one is yours.

Why would there need to be anti-spirit threads, only reason anyone is voicing the opinion that spirits don't need adjusting is because people are asking for them to be adjusted. As soon as you either stop talking about spirits or convince me they need an adjustment I'll stop disagreeing with you.

I'm honestly open to the possibility of an update to spirits but until theres a suggestion that isn't a waste of dev time(as far as actually improving the job goes) and will actually improve our position in game as much or more than a simple straight buff to Avatars damage/BP frequency, I'm gonna keep popping up showing SE that not all SMNs think spirits are an integral part of a 90 SMN's arsenal, yet are in desperate need of a fix.

Maybe Spirits have fallen behind on what some would like, but is that actually holding SMN back? Think about it What would actually happen if SE stopped with their current plan and recoded our spirits to cast smarter and cast higher tiers, we would now have a slightly more reliable pet that casts nukes comparable to probaly a lvl1 merit pact, what does that actually achieve for SMN? What can we do we couldn't before? What can we do better than we could before?

If you answer honestly to those 3 questions the answer is nothing, SMN gained nothing in that update except those that mean to can now use spirits to nuke if they still feel like it. The job however is completely where it started off before it got this "update".

This is the kind of thing I'm arguing against not you, not spirits, not the ideas you and the others have suggested, I'm fighting against the potentially wasted dev time on a job that sorely needs an update. If we were discussing WAR or WHM I would be right there beside you demanding updates for every damn thing I could think of:D

Razushu

09-05-2011, 01:03 AM

It is actually 50/50 as in some don't care, others care. The question is why anyone should listen to those who do not care? The only reason you say they are fine, is because you have no intention of using them outside of siphon.

Also I'm having a hard time remembering anyone else than Korpg and Razushu that said spirits were fine. We even have TWO other people here saying spirit updates would be welcome. That makes us 3 vs 2 until you get your friends in here to support you.

Probably not, but they should have these anyhow. Oversight on their part that should be fixed. But on the list of things that need fixing for smn? Spirits aren't exactly up there as far as I see. I'd rather see attention put to other issues.

Seeing as how this mirrors my own thoughts on spirits exactly, I would say that makes 3.

I say they are fine because SMN is fine with them as they are, you've yet to propose one way SMN benefits more from spirits getting better at nuking. Honestly because I would like to hear it, I can't think of it. No matter what SE does with spirits I'm 99% sure Avatars will still be stronger, I can't really see them focusing this long on Avatars, only to say "We've decided spirits should be stronger".

This being most likely the case, what does SMN actually gain from spirits getting a buff? So far all I can think of is a new toy. Maybe there's something in there, and so far some of the spirit supported Avatar ideas have been promising. But just a plain boost to spirits will be useless to SMN, kind of like giving SAM better option with 1hand swords, G.katanas would still outshine them. If they boosted spirits DD/healing/nuking/buffing abilities, it would be a waste of dev time simply because we already had DD/healing/buffing/nuking pets that were better to begin with and are probably still better after.

Malamasala

09-05-2011, 04:02 AM

Razushu

09-05-2011, 04:29 AM

You: Spirits are useless outside of siphon, but since they aren't needed, they don't need any updates.
Me: Avatars are useful all the time. Since they are already useful, they don't need any updates.

Those two lines pretty much covers all past and future discussions.

Or well, it would, but the current topic is if SE could give me an official statement on what is going to happen to spirits. And statements aren't updates, so there really is no use arguing against lost developer time, unless looking at the road map they have at HQ counts as waste of time.

Avatar's still need a buff, BP delay still needs a fix, we haven't gotten real rage pacts since the merit pacts, and Avatar melee damage is FAR too weak. Weighed against spirits Avatars are fine, but compared to other jobs and their pets they need a big buff.

A statement isn't really needed though, it's been made abundantly clear by their complete silence on spirits(and they've been quite vocal about us SMNs lately), and the fact they haven't been updated since Elemental Siphon, even forgetting they were unmentioned in the manifesto, it's fairly plain that spirits aren't on the agenda, and as such you're unlikely to get an official statement on them. All I said initially was that is was unlikely the reps are going to go to the devs with questions on spirits because it's been made quite obvious that at this time they aren't looking at spirits(if they ever were), because they probably know a helluva lot more about whats going on in SE, and as such know what questions are/aren't gonna get answered.

Malamasala

09-05-2011, 03:29 PM

A statement isn't really needed though, it's been made abundantly clear by their complete silence on spirits

Again, it isn't needed for a person with no interest in spirits. For all us others, there is a need. For example we could shave off another 500 spirit posts a year if it is confirmed that it is pointless to talk about them.

Being silent about spirits just give people hope that they'll be adjusted. And each update without that adjustment makes people more discontent with SE and closer to quitting. It is in everyones best interest, except yours and Korpgs, to get a statement on the future of spirits.

Tannlore

09-05-2011, 04:09 PM

Again, it isn't needed for a person with no interest in spirits. For all us others, there is a need. For example we could shave off another 500 spirit posts a year if it is confirmed that it is pointless to talk about them.

Being silent about spirits just give people hope that they'll be adjusted. And each update without that adjustment makes people more discontent with SE and closer to quitting. It is in everyones best interest, except yours and Korpgs, to get a statement on the future of spirits.

In all honesty with the exception of the occasional post like this I completely forget they have existed since I've been playing 2003. Well no that's not completely true, siphon brought them back enough that I remembered enough when I was low on mp I guess.

I think the writing is pretty plain to read as far as spirits go: SE is going to do nothing about them. They haven't mentioned anything about them in any of the updates at all. There's no change to them on the test server... nothing at all. They may have just resigned to leave them as portable mana batteries and the occasional/accidental yellow procs.

Really any real functionality they may have given them, they gave to other jobs. Puppetmaster comes to mind specifically when I think of this. Any sort of improvement on the AI I can think of, I just think of my own automation and it's own behaviors/strengths/weaknesses... and I can't help but think: this was SE's answer: They did this. It never really occurred to me until I leveled pup (this was before aby came out) and I noticed the similarities in my healing frame and my light spirit and it dawned on me.

Korpg

09-05-2011, 09:53 PM

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2398-Spirit-spell-update
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2089-New-elemental-spirits-Plz-Phys-BPs
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1666-Question-regarding-spirits-spell-list(Me though)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4427-The-woes-of-a-starting-summoner(Less about spirits, but points out new Summoners try spirits and go "wtf?")
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6312-Elemental-Spirits
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8817-Summoner.-New-JA-Elemental-Purge
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10198-Update-Alliance-Avatar-rewards-new-elemental-mitts-and-Elemental-Spirit-Staves
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11925-Jobability-Suggestion-fixes-SMN
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12100-Avatar-AI-problems-that-need-to-be-addressed(Not focused on spirits, but mention them as a problem)
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10434-Summoner-Updating-Avatars-Elemental-Spirits.-Blood-pacts-wards-and-spell-list
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12700-Compendium-of-Summoner-Job-Issues
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12849-Spirits-Re-make
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12918-New-idea-for-Spirits...

I said Spirits as a whole. Most of them were showing that spirit spells ended at 75, while the newer ones were pretty much in direct response to your constant complaining by throwing out a new idea about how to use spirits, but none of them were to make spirits anywhere close to being the same or surpassing avatars in power. Many of them were repeats anyway, and there are more players who were against them than for them.

I speak for the threads above. Who do you speak for? All the threads I didn't link? Sorry, but those aren't "anti spirit" threads, they are just threads on other topics. (Mainly BP timers, wards, new avatars, all 3 which has been answered in the thread btw, leaving only spirits as the unanswered big question)

Of course there aren't any "anti-spirit" thread because spirits are not a problem, or really important, or important enough to warrant a thread by the majority of players (most of those you posted were flaws of the spirits as it stands, but it isn't like anyone is going to go around and make a thread on WAR stating to take away Berserk, now is there?)

I listen to everyone except Korpg and Raz, two people who have proved they do not listen to my viewpoint so why should I listen to theirs? Funny enough that usually means there is nobody left saying anything negative about spirits.

Funny enough, that is because we are the most vocal about not improving spirits. If you ignore everyone who doesn't share the same viewpoint as you, then you are going to ignore everyone because no one can share the same viewpoint as you.

You have no idea how long that perspective is though. For all you know, it could be talking just this september update. I want to hear if there are any plans at all for spirits, or if they are OFFICIALLY counted as junk code.

You want to know the plans they have for SMN?

Vision
Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies

We intend to make it easier for avatars to wreak havoc upon enemies, but also emphasize how vital the act of managing the source of their magical powers is to summoners.

Example Adjustments

A new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.
Introducing the avatars Cait Sith and Atomos.

I'm sure you have seen this many times. No where in this does it say spirits at all. They don't mention it because it is not an issue. Everyone but you have seem to realize that. They don't expect people to have spirits and only spirits at level 90, much less level 75. If you are the exception, then you really need to get friends to help you with the level 65 avatar fights because you can not solo them yourself.

Korpg

09-05-2011, 09:57 PM

It is in everyones best interest, except yours and Korpgs, to get a statement on the future of spirits.

Actually, it would be in everyone's best interest because it would shave off 800 of your posts a year demanding an update to spirits so great that it would equal or surpass avatars.

I would welcome such a statement. Maybe then you would keep quiet and understand the real need of this job.

Malamasala

09-06-2011, 01:50 AM

In all honesty with the exception of the occasional post like this I completely forget they have existed since I've been playing 2003.

I'm reminded every time a RDM or SCH whines about Cure V, since I know I have it, but I can't use it. I'm reminded every time someone wants to trigger grellow, because I know I can cover 2 per element, but not efficient enough to bother. Every time I walk through magic aggro zones, I'm reminded that spirits can cast magic without magic aggro... but it has never been used because it was never worth it.

I feel like I have a a million dollars, but am trapped in a country that doesn't let me pay in dollars. Funny enough I'm surrounded by people saying "You can pay in this currency instead, why do you care about dollars?". Perhaps because I have such a potentially great thing, that I'm being cockblocked from by SE.

Korpg

09-06-2011, 02:03 AM

I'm reminded every time a RDM or SCH whines about Cure V, since I know I have it, but I can't use it.[quote]

You don't have it. The spirit has it, and only casts it when the AI determines that the player in question needs Cure V. You have no control over the spirit casting Cure V, so therefor you do not have Cure V.

[quote]I'm reminded every time someone wants to trigger grellow, because I know I can cover 2 per element, but not efficient enough to bother.

While possible to proc yellow (not called grellow btw), the spirit randomly casts the magic, not you. You have no control over the spell cast with the sole exception of which element it can cast. Because you do not have control over the spell cast, you do not own the spell and can determine if the spell is that right proc.

Every time I walk through magic aggro zones, I'm reminded that spirits can cast magic without magic aggro... but it has never been used because it was never worth it.

Pets are not players, and have no control over what they do (in the case of spirits). If they cast a spell to buff themselves, and in the sole case of Light Spirit, the player(s), they do not get aggro because they determined that the target needs the buff and casts the buff on that target, and SE also determined that, because the control of casting the spell is in the pet's hands and not the player's hands, the aggro issue should not come into play because the aggro will happen towards the player, not the pet, and be detrimental towards the player, not the pet. You do get aggro, however, if you summon a pet in the middle of magic aggro.

I feel like I have a a million dollars, but am trapped in a country that doesn't let me pay in dollars. Funny enough I'm surrounded by people saying "You can pay in this currency instead, why do you care about dollars?". Perhaps because I have such a potentially great thing, that I'm being cockblocked from by SE.

Exchange rates don't exist? If you want to cast Cure V, level WHM. If you want to proc yellow, level BLM/BLU/BRD. If you don't want to get magic aggro by casting, level NIN. You are assuming that this is like WoW and you can not change your job whenever you wish to, which you can (abet limitations of course).

Mala negative post count: 1000. Mala positive post count: 2 You have a 500:1 ratio of negative:positive posts now, congratulations!

Razushu

09-06-2011, 02:47 AM

I'm reminded every time a RDM or SCH whines about Cure V, since I know I have it, but I can't use it.

Healing Ruby II, Carbuncles favor and /WHM's Cure IV make up for not having Cure V in our case(I can heal 885HP without D.Seal with HR II + C IV in one go). I've yet to have a problem keeping anyone alive outside Abyssea, hell I've even managed to keep a low man group alive on NMs in Abyssea with /SCH using Carby.

I'm reminded every time someone wants to trigger grellow, because I know I can cover 2 per element, but not efficient enough to bother. Every time I walk through magic aggro zones, I'm reminded that spirits can cast magic without magic aggro... but it has never been used because it was never worth it.

I'll agree with you on the procs, but with only two of them, if you're going to try procing it's best to bring a group regardless of casting efficency.

You know Avatar's don't magic aggro too, right? And they have some very nice nukes.

I feel like I have a a million dollars, but am trapped in a country that doesn't let me pay in dollars. Funny enough I'm surrounded by people saying "You can pay in this currency instead, why do you care about dollars?". Perhaps because I have such a potentially great thing, that I'm being cockblocked from by SE.

Maybe you like spending Dollars but it's very easy to turn that 1,000,000USD into 709,801.36 EUR, which will get you just as far. Sometimes you just have to work with whats accepted.

How exactly do you feel spirits not being as powerful as you'd like holding back SMN(aside from procs which even then is a miniscule problem). Does it stop us healing a group? Carbuncle laughs it's shiny blue tail off at this prospect. Does it hurt our ability to DD? Our heavy hitting Avatars /facepalm at this suggestion. Are we prevented from buffing a group? Once again our Avatars are chuckling.

I honestly cannot follow your logic as to spirits requiring attention, nothing about them is holding us back. The ony area they can be expanded as stand alone pets is nuking... yet that's an already filled role, which brings us yet again back to wasted dev time. The job is badly in need of an actual buff that improves our damage and buff potency, not a tweak to spirits so they're slightly less useless in a fight.

Tannlore

09-06-2011, 03:34 AM

I'm reminded every time a RDM or SCH whines about Cure V, since I know I have it, but I can't use it. I'm reminded every time someone wants to trigger grellow, because I know I can cover 2 per element, but not efficient enough to bother. Every time I walk through magic aggro zones, I'm reminded that spirits can cast magic without magic aggro... but it has never been used because it was never worth it..

Funny a long... long.. long.. time ago rdm had cure V you know? Did you know that? They did, SE took it from them. Few people actually know that little factoid. I remember the game back then :p True spirits can cast magic without magic aggro, did you know your avatars can too? Personally I would rather my avatars be given the ability to proc yellow with their spells that I can control over my spirits who can not control at all. Why aren't you pushing for this instead?

What IS your fascination with spirits? They are considerably weaker than avatars, cost more to upkeep, are practically uncontrollable, were never meant to be a mainstay of the job, were only implemented to stand in for when we didn't have our avatars and then be replaced by them once we did get them. I don't get it....

Dallas

09-06-2011, 07:06 AM

Do not question the wonder that is Mala's love for spirits. I have felt the joy of watching another SMN melee and reaped the rewards of sharing that experience. Mala loves alone.

Mala's love is a forbidden love, illegal in the 4 contiguous empires. We do not want to know why there are singed edges on the shower curtain. We just don't. ;)

Tannlore

09-06-2011, 09:51 AM

Dallas.....

Is this the first non-flame post you've made?

I'm touched! <3

Edit: No.. really I am :D

Dallas

09-06-2011, 09:59 AM

Pfft, I'm just in a better mood because the melee SMN have started arriving. Better late than never. I had to crack some skulls solo for months.

;)

Tannlore

09-06-2011, 10:06 AM

Bah, smn melee have always been here, we're just not as hardcore you. I Still play the same way I always have, I only traded spirit taker in for Myrky... 'course hitting things for stupid damage now is nice :D

Dallas

09-06-2011, 02:31 PM

Korpg

09-06-2011, 09:40 PM

Poor Dallas, he doesn't know that most of those Hvergelmirs out there were made because the person in question already had all of their other emps for all of their other jobs. And only used as town pieces.

And most of them are level 85, because they know not to waste getting a level 90 on.

Malamasala

09-07-2011, 12:58 AM

What IS your fascination with spirits? They are considerably weaker than avatars, cost more to upkeep, are practically uncontrollable, were never meant to be a mainstay of the job, were only implemented to stand in for when we didn't have our avatars and then be replaced by them once we did get them. I don't get it....

It is content added and then ignored. What is everyones fascination with Dynamis overhaul? Why wasn't it ok to just say it was old content and not to be done past level 75? Why did people insist that Sky needed updates since nobody did it? It was only meant to last until level 75. Why do people want ZNM improved? Why do people want an update to campaign? Why do people want an update to Nyzul isle?

There is really no other argument than that some of us liked the content, but disliked how it was pushed away by other content. SE has for some reason listened to people on updating zones, but they don't seem to bother about jobs. I'd rather pick spirit updates than sky/dynamis/salvage/nyzul/campaign/voidwatch updates.

I also see exactly what good spirits would allow us to do.

1) Heal on our MAIN job. Doesn't it bother anyone else that you are using subjob cures one tier lower to heal? That is like MNK subbing PUP to get H2H skill of a PUP. It is outrageous and no sane person would let this slide.

2) Regenerate MP while DDing. Just assault the spirit do nukes without spending a single MP, then every 5 min siphon to increase the MP. Of course there are alternatives, but the best option is not available to us.

3) Deal more damage than an avatar. But because it is weak to silence/stun/sleep, it would still be inferior to avatars on HNM, but for normal monsters they would be your go-to pet.

Improved spirits would give you:
- Better ability to cover healing
- Added strategy and skill to master the job
- Variety in play
- Better damage output on simple monsters for farming or questing or soloing exp
- Triggers

Spirits is like going from 2D to 3D. You get a whole additional dimension. Avatar updates is more like going from 2D to HD 2D. It is better, but not really different. And it is a really great comparison, because most people hate on 3D because they do not want it, while they love HD. Still, the fact is that you gain more from spirit updates, it just might not be the gain you were looking for.

SpankWustler

09-07-2011, 01:09 AM

I also see exactly what good spirits would allow us to do.

1) Heal on our MAIN job. Doesn't it bother anyone else that you are using subjob cures one tier lower to heal? That is like MNK subbing PUP to get H2H skill of a PUP. It is outrageous and no sane person would let this slide.

One dark and dreary day while the sun is hiding it's eyes behind a dark cloud because it can't bear to watch, some guy at SE will give light spirits the same AI as a Soulsoother automatons. You will still be disappointed, just in a different and more full-bodied and colorful way. Like watching a videotape of your own birth in a movie theater instead of on your parents' 23 inch TV.

Korpg

09-07-2011, 02:10 AM

What is everyones fascination with Dynamis overhaul?

Because a lot of people did it for justifiable rewards (relics and armor).

Why wasn't it ok to just say it was old content and not to be done past level 75?

Because some relic armor and weapons are still the best for that slot/job. Apoc still rocks and is better than the mythic and emp versions. So does Mandau (for THF) and GK relic. TH hands still is great, RDM hat is great for enfeebling and idle, BLM legs for day-of-the-week nuking, WHM legs if you don't have 5/5 Emp +2, and so on. Dynamis is still great because the rewards justify the effort placed into it. Spirits outside of Elemental Siphon doesn't, and never had.

Why did people insist that Sky needed updates since nobody did it?

See above.

It was only meant to last until level 75.

You are comparing content to a minor ability. That is like comparing Meditate to Abyssea.

Why do people want ZNM improved?

See dynamis answer.

Why do people want an update to campaign?

Because the only way to have allied notes is by Campaign, in case you haven't realized that. It is also a fun way to kill stuff for justifiable rewards. Besieged is the same thing.

Why do people want an update to Nyzul isle?

Because it is content. It was great, and it is required for mystics. Salvage and Assaults are the same way.

There is really no other argument than that some of us liked the content, but disliked how it was pushed away by other content. SE has for some reason listened to people on updating zones, but they don't seem to bother about jobs. I'd rather pick spirit updates than sky/dynamis/salvage/nyzul/campaign/voidwatch updates.

Square Enix did not state that if you buy Abyssea, you can never do CoP or Salvage ever again. You are confusing things into extremes again.

I also see exactly what good spirits would allow us to do.

1) Heal on our MAIN job. Doesn't it bother anyone else that you are using subjob cures one tier lower to heal? That is like MNK subbing PUP to get H2H skill of a PUP. It is outrageous and no sane person would let this slide.

So, you want to be better than a SCH and RDM when it comes to healing now? Instead of the hierarchy of healing jobs to go from WHM, SCH, RDM, BLU, SMN/PUP you want it to become WHM, SMN, SCH, RDM, BLU, PUP instead? SMN is not a healing job, was never really designed to be a main or sub healer, and it was players who made it into a healer job because they saw the amount of MP a SMN has, the ability to cure with /WHM, and can, if geared right, have Carby out to help cure also. But it was never designed to be a healer, and there was never any "healing abilities" added on for SMN, except for Carbuncle, but only major Erase, nothing more.

2) Regenerate MP while DDing. Just assault the spirit do nukes without spending a single MP, then every 5 min siphon to increase the MP. Of course there are alternatives, but the best option is not available to us.

Spirits have a very limited number of nukes, and can choose from either a small debuff, a small buff, or a major nuke. We have no control over it, and that is what SE wanted when they made SMN and even their lack of improvement on spirits implied that they don't want spirits to take over the job of a PUP (limited), RDM, SCH, or BLM. The lack of cost for the spirit to cast a nuke is the only benefit we have, but that is because we have no control over the spirit. If we were given control, we would have to pay for the spells the spirit uses, with the addition of perp cost of the spirit.

3) Deal more damage than an avatar. But because it is weak to silence/stun/sleep, it would still be inferior to avatars on HNM, but for normal monsters they would be your go-to pet.

Spirits were never designed to be better or equal to avatars. If they were, then why bother get the avatars when you could just buy the scroll of a spirit instead?

Spirits is like going from 2D to 3D. You get a whole additional dimension. Avatar updates is more like going from 2D to HD 2D. It is better, but not really different. And it is a really great comparison, because most people hate on 3D because they do not want it, while they love HD. Still, the fact is that you gain more from spirit updates, it just might not be the gain you were looking for.

Spirit updates are more like going from 2D to 2D with better graphics. Add more spells for the spirits, and you are still left with the major problems of spirits period. Lack of control, lack of defense, higher perp cost, and overall inability to choose what is cast are still going to be there. But that is how spirits were made to be, placeholders for the real reason people choose SMN; Avatars.

Razushu

09-07-2011, 03:35 AM

1) Heal on our MAIN job. Doesn't it bother anyone else that you are using subjob cures one tier lower to heal? That is like MNK subbing PUP to get H2H skill of a PUP. It is outrageous and no sane person would let this slide.

2) Regenerate MP while DDing. Just assault the spirit do nukes without spending a single MP, then every 5 min siphon to increase the MP. Of course there are alternatives, but the best option is not available to us.

3) Deal more damage than an avatar. But because it is weak to silence/stun/sleep, it would still be inferior to avatars on HNM, but for normal monsters they would be your go-to pet.

Improved spirits would give you:
- Better ability to cover healing
- Added strategy and skill to master the job
- Variety in play
- Better damage output on simple monsters for farming or questing or soloing exp
- Triggers

Spirits is like going from 2D to 3D. You get a whole additional dimension. Avatar updates is more like going from 2D to HD 2D. It is better, but not really different. And it is a really great comparison, because most people hate on 3D because they do not want it, while they love HD. Still, the fact is that you gain more from spirit updates, it just might not be the gain you were looking for.

1) Our ability to heal is fine as is Caby+SMN/WHM makes a fine healer outside abyssea already. Why does it matter that we use a subjob that enables us to cure. By this logic SE should just give us native healing magic instead of a spirit buff, as this would give us main job only healing capabilities without wasting time on spirits.

2) We already do that with release/spirit/siphon/Avatar, takes 15 seconds TOPS, and all we lose is Avatar melee time, which has 0.00XX% effect on our DPS

3) They're not designed to deal more damage than an Avatar, they never were. Avatar's are already Superior to spirits at DD, why would SE bother making Spirits better than Avatars for killing exp/farming mobs, when Avatars kill these just fine anyway.

All improvements to spirits gives SMN is... SMNs that want to play with spirits get a new toy. That's it nothing more, unless they decide to go against everything they've done and said about SMN and start making spirits stronger than Avatars. An adjustment to spirits is more like watching The Wizard of Oz at the part where it goes from B&W->Colour on a 14in portable placed under a Cinema screen where everyone else is watching Avatar:D in 3D, and thinking it's the most amazing thing ever to happen on a screen.

Honestly I get that you like spirits, I don't understand why, but I get it, and honestly if the job wasn't in such bad need of a real update I would probably be happily bandying around spirit improvement ideas with you. That's not the case though our Avatar's melee like a naked H2H BLM, our BP delay is hurting us, and we're using DD tools from 15+ levels ago, this is not the description of a job that can afford to have time wasted on it tinkering with tools designed for 70+ levels ago. Maybe spirits aren't fine as they are, but they're certainly not involved in anyway with the things that holding us back.

Razushu

09-07-2011, 03:59 AM

I was referring to this forum. There are at least 200 Hvergelmirs out there, and I bet they are all in the hands of SMN. The more people talk positively about the weapon, the more people will get the weapon. The more people understand the strengths and weaknesses of melee SMN, the better feedback SE will get.

Read the OP. This is exactly what some people don't want to happen.

Actually I was bored in college today, and I did a little research using the AH website. What I found was that that at all stages of Hvergelmir(80, 85, 90), a pattern is visible. A large proportion of those with Hvergelmir(at any stage) have atleast 2/3 jobs that use it at level 90, with a goodly amount having all three. The most frequent combo was BLM & SMN, and there was only one or two of each job that only had 1/3. BLM actually seemed to be the most popular Hvergelmir job, followed by SMN and then SCH. Kinda flies in the face of you statistics there don't it? Not that I'm saying my number are 100% concrete but there seems to be a definite trend.

I never mentioned Hvergelmir in my OP. In fact I thought I was pretty clear in it, that all I wanted was to have a place we all could discuss SMN, in ways that was relevant to what SE's plans are for it, and leave the other stuff to be discussed in any one of the innumerable other threads that were taking place at the time. Funny thing is it was working Reps were responding quite frequently to this thread, and we were getting good feedback off them, until it got bogged down with all the melee and spirit debate that kills every other SMN thread. You know all the stuff from these threads the reps seem to be steering clear of.

Malamasala

09-07-2011, 03:39 PM

You know all the stuff from these threads the reps seem to be steering clear of.

It isn't that they are avoiding the topic, it is that SE never, ever, talks about anything else than the next version update. If it isn't in the update, it won't be discussed. And sadly if it is in the update, it is usually not worth discussing since all we have to do is wait 1 month and we'll see what is in the update. At most they talk about future plans like "There will be new avatars". But for some reason they are incapable of saying "There will be no spirit adjustments".

But I'd still really want them to say a single word on the topic of spirits. Because it is the only remaining FFXI mystery. Like did they only get spells from level 50 to 75 level cap raises by accident? Or where they actively updated in the past? Why aren't they then updated now for 76+?

Merits at 75 hints at them still thinking spirits had a reason to exist. Siphon is a slightly worse hint at them still wanting us to use spirits. But where are the new spells? Then we have spirit perp costs... would they rise past level 75? And if they do, what reason is it for them to rise if they get no new spells?

Overall it just screams forgotten code. And the best way to know if it is forgotten, is to ask. Sadly asking SE is futile because they have no intention on having people keep playing FFXI instead of moving over to FFXIV.

Razushu

09-07-2011, 07:54 PM

It isn't that they are avoiding the topic, it is that SE never, ever, talks about anything else than the next version update. If it isn't in the update, it won't be discussed. And sadly if it is in the update, it is usually not worth discussing since all we have to do is wait 1 month and we'll see what is in the update. At most they talk about future plans like "There will be new avatars". But for some reason they are incapable of saying "There will be no spirit adjustments".

That's usually true, but the stuff they promised SMN in the manifesto will keep tham busy until the update after this next one(because they're delivering none of it yet), The manifesto basically outlined whats going to be happening to us(faster BPs, more MP management and new Avatars), which could take anything from 2-3 updates to get here.

The problem is they will rarely turn around and say, "You're not getting __________", generally silence = not happening.

But I'd still really want them to say a single word on the topic of spirits. Because it is the only remaining FFXI mystery. Like did they only get spells from level 50 to 75 level cap raises by accident? Or where they actively updated in the past? Why aren't they then updated now for 76+?

Actually I'm not against a word on spirits, I just think the amount of silence about them is telling enough. The evidence does point that way, it seems like they were getting new spells as wild elementals were, and as soon as they stopped adding wild elementals, our spirits stopped getting spells. If you think about it Elemental Siphon was the only "buff" to them, and even that only because they are the trade off for a powerful ability. Not saying this is definitely the case, but the evidence does point that way.

Merits at 75 hints at them still thinking spirits had a reason to exist. Siphon is a slightly worse hint at them still wanting us to use spirits. But where are the new spells? Then we have spirit perp costs... would they rise past level 75? And if they do, what reason is it for them to rise if they get no new spells?

Overall it just screams forgotten code. And the best way to know if it is forgotten, is to ask. Sadly asking SE is futile because they have no intention on having people keep playing FFXI instead of moving over to FFXIV.

That could well be, the merit category is a weird one, but Siphon wasn't added to make spirits more used. It was added to give us an MP regeneration tool, spirits were made the condition of that so we would need to trade off something for it(Avatar TP, or in the case of solo added danger). I think spirit perp goes up past 75, simply because Avatar perp does. Honestly it's probably unlikely that spirits will get new spells, unless they add higher level wild elementals to Vana'diel.

Neonii

09-07-2011, 09:42 PM

[QUOTE=Malamasala;189742]I'm reminded every time a RDM or SCH whines about Cure V, since I know I have it, but I can't use it.[quote]

You don't have it. The spirit has it, and only casts it when the AI determines that the player in question needs Cure V. You have no control over the spirit casting Cure V, so therefor you do not have Cure V.

While possible to proc yellow (not called grellow btw), the spirit randomly casts the magic, not you. You have no control over the spell cast with the sole exception of which element it can cast. Because you do not have control over the spell cast, you do not own the spell and can determine if the spell is that right proc.

Pets are not players, and have no control over what they do (in the case of spirits). If they cast a spell to buff themselves, and in the sole case of Light Spirit, the player(s), they do not get aggro because they determined that the target needs the buff and casts the buff on that target, and SE also determined that, because the control of casting the spell is in the pet's hands and not the player's hands, the aggro issue should not come into play because the aggro will happen towards the player, not the pet, and be detrimental towards the player, not the pet. You do get aggro, however, if you summon a pet in the middle of magic aggro.

Exchange rates don't exist? If you want to cast Cure V, level WHM. If you want to proc yellow, level BLM/BLU/BRD. If you don't want to get magic aggro by casting, level NIN. You are assuming that this is like WoW and you can not change your job whenever you wish to, which you can (abet limitations of course).

Mala negative post count: 1000. Mala positive post count: 2 You have a 500:1 ratio of negative:positive posts now, congratulations!

Why focus on the individual personally?

Soranika

09-07-2011, 10:29 PM

The topic on elemental spirits seem to be very draining. Considering the fact that I joined before many of the major changes were made to SMN (like splitting blood pacts into rage and ward), I've mostly assumed elemental spirits were added for these specific reasons.
-Because the enemy summoner's had them.
-To have in temporary place of avatar of same element given the difficult nature of acquiring them. (back then anyway)
-Longevity to MP via elemental siphon.*
-Decoys to escape dire situations due to low casting time

*Elemental Siphon came some time after though, right?

The major thing I wonder about elemental spirits is if they do get updated, who will bother to use them? Lack of control, high perp cost, casting and reaction time on spirits are undesirable. Even that avatars are meant to be summoner's bread and butter there is no real reason to put any amount of time into spirits. The very least would be spent giving them more spells 75+ which means more random chance of a spirit casting an undesirable spell. Summoner would need a job ability along with updates spirits in order to becomes a little less unattractive outside of restoring MP... which again would be a waste of development time and resources on the job, especially at the current levels. They'd still be impractical for usage.

At the end of the day, given the power of summoners and the avatars, elemental spirits have to settle with being mp restore tools that never really had combat potential to begin with. They have a purpose at least. Also, on the merits, one can only wonder why there's merits to reduce avatar spirit perp cost... I reckon that may have been because most summon related gear reduced perp cost of avatars alone and not spirits.

Korpg

09-07-2011, 11:51 PM

Why focus on the individual personally?

Because the person in question thinks that their posts are all positive and proactive, all while, with a straight face, continue to call everyone who doesn't agree with him an idiot.

Malamasala

09-08-2011, 02:02 AM

Because the person in question thinks that their posts are all positive and proactive, all while, with a straight face, continue to call everyone who doesn't agree with him an idiot.

Who are you talking about? Because it sounds like you are describing yourself. Actually it is spot on.

The funny part is that I know you almost described me, but you probably had no idea that you described yourself. Some people know what kind of person they are, others think they are amazing.

Malamasala

09-08-2011, 02:05 AM

I reckon that may have been because most summon related gear reduced perp cost of avatars alone and not spirits.

Actually all -perp gear works on spirits as well. Unless some of the new one was specially tailored to phase out spirits from the game.

I'm amazed Korpg didn't correct you on this, but he isn't known to know when someone is wrong and when they are right.

Korpg

09-08-2011, 02:21 AM

Who are you talking about? Because it sounds like you are describing yourself. Actually it is spot on.

The funny part is that I know you almost described me, but you probably had no idea that you described yourself. Some people know what kind of person they are, others think they are amazing.

As I stated, about 30% of my posts have negative ideas into it, 50% is purely informative, and 20% is either agreeing or expanding on other ideas.

You very rarely post a positive post that doesn't try to demean another's viewpoint.

You can count this as a negative post if you want, but you have to realize that you post a lot more negative posts than I do. For an example, see below:

Actually all -perp gear works on spirits as well. Unless some of the new one was specially tailored to phase out spirits from the game.

I'm amazed Korpg didn't correct you on this, but he isn't known to know when someone is wrong and when they are right.

If you left out the third sentence, your post would have been positive. You instead decided to throw in a cheap shot towards me and turn the entire post into a negative. See the problem? A lot of your posts would be a lot more positive if you didn't include the cheap shots like you do.