Two Cents Worth Of Bahamut.

[DaiGurrenDan]

So I figured I'll start to throw in my two cents here and there, beginning with! Bahamut.

From what I've gathered from reading the forums is that there are two problems with having Bahamut as an summon. 1) He's too big to fit into most if not all inside areas and hell, even some outside ones too. 2) SE not wanting to knock Bahamut off his pedestal of high power and thus creating a less powerful version (aka capable of being defeated by a rabbit or worm) just so Summoners can have him and not make him overpowered.

These are total BS arguments.

Starting off with the first "problem," Bahamut's size is only a problem if he's an actual avatar and not a 2 hour (more on that later). If he were implemented in avatar form, having a full blown Bahamut following you around would be impractical. So this is where we(SE) would use our imaginations (Ridiculous!) and think up creative solutions (Even More Ridiculous!). The first one that comes to mind would be to simply shrink him to the size of, say, Diabolos or possibly slightly bigger. Although having a Pixie sized Bahamut follow you around would Never get old. I suppose the problem with that would be "Why would he be smaller than his actual form?" and this can be addressed in oh so many different ways. There would undoubtedly have to be a quest or some sort to get Bahamut as a summon so it would be easy to incorporate it into the story of the quest. Such as only being able to harness a fraction of Bahamut's true strength and the physical(/magical?) manifestation of that power is quite literally an avatar of that portion of Bahamut's power. Or it could just simply be that Bahamut can change size at will to fit inside of places (Hey, even Bahamut thinks it get a little chilly outside too). I'm sure there are plenty of other ways as well that other people can come up with, this is just me thinking about it for a couple of minutes and I'm sure I can come up with more later.

Now, if Bahamut was implemented as a 2 hour size would be completely irrelevant. His ability would no doubt be Gigaflare and the only part of Bahamut that would really need to be there is his face. Which makes this totally doable, I've seen plenty of things (including dragons) crawl out of a seal that appeared on the ground. All you would need is Bahamut's claws come out, then pull up his head and then use his laser face. Super easy. The only problem with Bahamut as a 2 hour is that you don't really want another Odin (assuming he stays as a 2 hour), so we(SE) would have to figure out what Gigaflare does other than just straight up damage. I noticed in another thread that someone mentioned some debuffs which could work, or it could just be flat damage that was significantly better than Odin but only available to level 99's.

I sorta touched on the second "problem" which is not wanting to make him less powerful to make him balanced as a non 2 hour summon, but the fact is that is just doesn't matter. He's an avatar, he's not actually Bahamut. We're not going into the BCNM, throwing a collar around his neck and going, "Okay follow me you're mine now." To be honest I don't even think we're doing that with the Celestial avatars either, we're fighting their physical(/magical?) manifestations (aka their avatars) defeating them, then obtaining the ability to summon them in avatar form. I don't see how this would be any different with Bahamut. You could also just make it so only level 99's can summon him completely eliminating the 'being defeated by a tunnel worm is too humiliating' anyway...

On a quick side note... Please! For the love of Bahamut let us have Odin and Alexander as Actual avatars, I did not do all that work of going through ToA to get two situational, AT BEST, "avatars." You realize we ONLY use Odin to kill regular mobs in abyssea? It's a complete waste of two potentially Awesome summons, one of which is a personal favorite of mine. /rant

tl;dr
The reasons we've been given and the arguments made for not having Bahamut are total BS, if they don't want us to have him just SAY so and don't hide behind these stupid reasons.

So I don't know, I suppose this is where I say, "So, what do you think?" and "No disrespectful language." /shake finger

[Imakun]

There's no way on Vana'diel Bahamut would lower himself to be an avatar for us to summon, he hates our guts and he'd just eat us. He is too proud of his status and power and would never do such a thing. Also when we met him during CoP we're not dealing with an avatar, but the real Bahamut himself. Yes we defeat it (again in "BahaV2" as we used to call it in my LS), but he just goes "Here you can have my stick now go away you miserable thing".

I think that's what SE means when they say "We can't allow Bahamut to be summonable".
I can see why Odin would do that, you basically win him over proving your valor against him. Bahamut just doesn't care about that and, again, he'd just eat you.

About Odin and Alexander yes, I'd love them to became "real" avatars but I'm looking forward Atomos and Cait Sith. I find them to be more intriguing than Bahamut to be honest, he was never a favourite of mine (I guess that was clear :P).

[Malamasala]

Only valid argument against Bahamut is "He is so big". Everything else is just mindless chatter someone thought up in their closet while counting shoes.

Besides, you convince the avatar Odin to help you. Not the Odin that runs amok and kills people in ToAU or in Einherjar. Same with Alexander. You do not defeat the ToAU boss driven by a BLU mage, you defeat the avatar version.

So to get Bahamut as avatar, just fight the astral version of him. Should be enough with a pokeball or something to bahamuts face, to extract some of his soul and run off and beat the crap out of it.

[Tarage]

Only valid argument against Bahamut is "He is so big". Everything else is just mindless chatter someone thought up in their closet while counting shoes.

Besides, you convince the avatar Odin to help you. Not the Odin that runs amok and kills people in ToAU or in Einherjar. Same with Alexander. You do not defeat the ToAU boss driven by a BLU mage, you defeat the avatar version.

So to get Bahamut as avatar, just fight the astral version of him. Should be enough with a pokeball or something to bahamuts face, to extract some of his soul and run off and beat the crap out of it.

SE has stated that they do not want to lessen Bahamut's impact in lore and the game. If that is 'mindless chatter' to you, maybe you need to play another game.

[Korpg]

Reason why SE won't put Bahamut as a summon?

PS2 limitations....

[Malamasala]

SE has stated that they do not want to lessen Bahamut's impact in lore and the game. If that is 'mindless chatter' to you, maybe you need to play another game.

SE has said they do not want to raise level cap past 75. Ponder that statement and then return with your Bahamut "mindless chatter".

[Korpg]

SE has said they do not want to raise level cap past 75. Ponder that statement and then return with your Bahamut "mindless chatter".

Yet they responded in saying that Bahamut won't be an avatar.

[Arciel]

The Bahamut won't be an avatar statement was released back in the day when 75 was the level cap and they said it wouldnt rise.

With that, a lot has changed and the development team is nowhere near the same as it used to be.. so I personally feel that anything is possible with the current state of things. Any statements of there will be or will not be no longer hold to be true.

As for Bahamut, they did say that they didn't want him to be an avatar because it would diminish the image of his godly power.. or something like that.. and also that he was kinda big.
But that was when level cap was 75 and Bahamut was actually hard, when they didn't have astral flow only avatars that only appeared for a while, and when they didn't have avatars that had level limitation.

In other words, anything is possible.

[azjazo]

Black mages are getting meteor, you know, the spell that in certain Final Fantasy game was going to destroy the world

So... give us bahamuth, a lvl 99 Summoner should be worthy of bahamuth and make it a super epic fight if you will, a multi part fights defeating all avatars in a boss rush mode solo, then the Wyrms in party, then Bahamuh in party and lastly Bahamuth mano-a-mano in astral form *-*

[Inafking]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/9737-Bahamut-Avatar

[Malamasala]

Yet they responded in saying that Bahamut won't be an avatar.

Which I'll take their word for, as long as level cap is 75.

[DaiGurrenDan]

So, I might have come off as a little rude, which wasn't my intent (I may have been a little tired). I suppose my point was while SE's reasoning behind not letting us have Bahamut as a summon pre level cap increase was totally justified, however I don't believe that it is anymore. Now that it's planned for us to eventually reach level 99, I feel that they should at least reconsider Bahamut as an summon, since we are no longer lowly level 75's but instead masters of our job unlocking it's true maximum potential at level 99, I honestly don't see why Bahamut can't be included in at least some form. I suppose what I'm trying to say is I don't understand why people (including SE) are so against something that if implemented correctly (and at the appropriate level) could add some nice additional variety and a little oomph to final level(s) of Summoner.

[Toukai]

Bahamut's "Impact" was already reduced when alliances would zerg him down in 30seconds @ lv75 >_>

I think summoner's deserve bahamut @ lv99, give him a higher perp, stronger Pacts that cost 50% more or so than the standard pacts, making him great for abyssea since Mp isn't an issue. Outside aby he will be a bit more situational, not something you'd use to solo an Nm with perhaps unless you've got great gear, but thats the perk to working hard for good gear :o

[Tarage]

Stop asking for Bahamut. We aren't getting Bahamut. You people are distracting the devs from looking at actual issues, not your temper tantrums.

[Malamasala]

Bahamut is one of the few wishes that even the JP keep pressing on their forum. I'd dare say the only ones against it, is at most the development team. Which is kind of like having your government have the opposite opinion of your country.

[Covenant]

The trouble with the 3 "avatars" of Bahamut, Odin, and Alexander is their sheer awesomeness. They are just too good.
Once you give players Death/Odin, where do you go from there? a bloodpact that makes his horse eat a carrot? Alexander prime fight he only does a few moves. Banish spells are his unique spell and what's different then carby's light spell?

I never fought Odin prime in einghjar so can't tell you what would make him unique when he's out.

Bahamut, unfortunately is nearly the same as Odin. While Odin is limited against NM, do you really think a Bahamut 2 hr move would trump death? And you know SE will severely limited the damage of a megaflare to include resistance.

Controllable Odin, Alexander, and Alexander would "weaken" them while really adding nothing to Summoners. Most if not all types of damage, buffs, and debuffs already exist.

However, offering Phoenix would offer some really great options such as raisaga I, II, III. Reraisaga I and II. Regenaga IV, enlightaga, flaraga, flashaga II etc.

As an aside, what I got from Chains of Promathia was that Phoenix served a specific purpose sacrificing himself for Tenzen and the people of Vanadiel. However, the flaming feather showed that at least, teasingly SquareEnix was willing to entertain the idea of Phoenix Reincarnating to serve a new master. A new master who unknowingly will face a even greater challenge then the "Chained God".
In case, you were wondering it's the player.

[Tarage]

I never fought Alexander prime in einghjar so can't tell you what would make him unique when he's out.

What? Reread what you just said.

I agree though, Phoenix is much more understandable than Bahamut. Still, I'm fine with Caitsith.

[Nala]

while phoenix would be cool according to the story line he isnt whole atm, and probably would a far east expansion since he resides in tenzen's blade (sounds like they did some pretty inhumane rituals to imbue tenzens blade with phoenix too x.x) so might be hard to implement him from the story line aspect.

[Tarage]

She.

And I always wanted to stab Tenzen for that.

[Clou777]

forget all about bahamut for a sec and get SE to add FFs BEST summon...


KOTR! have like 12 avatar knights runnin round pwnin stuff!

[Malamasala]

The cat will be 9 cats of the round table.

[Nala]

forget all about bahamut for a sec and get SE to add FFs BEST summon...


KOTR! have like 12 avatar knights runnin round pwnin stuff!

KoTR wasn't a real summon nor were ruby and emerald weapon original bosses, they added them for the american version.

[Yamimarik44]

We are very fortunate to be getting a new walking avatar for us aka Cait Sith, will be even more interesting to see how they implement Atomos, and I'm very grateful for these new avatars, considering I've been playing SMN for 6years or so now, any who about this Bahamut business I think it wouldn't be a total waste of time or loss if they added him I mean hell, he's a summonable summon in some of the other Final Fantasy's what is wrong with making it in this Final Fantasy as well? Diminishing his power? He wouldn't be anymore god like? Uhhh then is that what they did to all those other Bahamut's you could use in the other games? And it is true, the level cap of 75 is gone now, with that former statement no longer having the same meaning, anything is quite possible, but in my heart of hearts, whether it's because they're lazy or they just don't care, I don't see SE giving us Bahamut in FFXI.

[Tannlore]

The cat will be 9 cats of the round table.

Yes! Smn with army of Cait Siths... I shall make my own party!


Cat 1: you are warrior, proc red and blue !!
Cat 2: you are blm, proc yellow !!
Cat 3: you are blu, proc yellow !!
Cat 4, you are brd, proc yellow !!
Cat 5: you are tank, make fun of it's mother!
Cat 6, 7, 8 and 9: Sing the mow mix song and annoy the hell out of everyone else while they watch!

*summons carbuncle and tells him that while he may have sent him to his death thousands of times.. he never did it with this much flare* "No cat 2! It's water for yellow! Flood, not flare! Wait.. which one were you again??"


But to add the conversation: Diminish his power? Let me see...
I've beaten how many GODS to count in sky/sea/you-name-it, not to mention tons of other horror and atrocities that you've had to overcome if you've done all the missions in the game. No offense, but Bahamut is a small fry compared to some of the power your character has fought off or defeated. And if a small band of people (one alliance) can defeat him (in under 30 seconds @ level 75 no less) What does that say about his grand power. Heh... I've fought Kirins that took WAY longer than that back in the day.

At level 99 who knows, maybe we'll get him as a 2hr or something. It's not deal breaker for me if we get him or not. However, it would be nice to see. Bahamut has lent his powers to other mortals in other games before, who have accomplished far, far less than our characters have. Heck all most of them had to do was beat him and that was enough. Well I've beaten him easily over 20 times: I can has my bahamut summon now plz-k-thnx! ;)

[Soranika]

Bahamut, for the most part, is still an unrealistic avatar to obtain. Why? Doesn't matter of he respects the enlighten race. He would turn on us the very instant another threatening 'Apocalypse' happened cause he's an protector of Vana'diel, not the people who live there, which he despises.

Pheonix would be lovely (another fire avatar? Yes, please.) but unless Selh'teus part ways with her so she can get a new body and crystal to match, what's the chance of that happening?

[Tannlore]

Bahamut, for the most part, is still an unrealistic avatar to obtain. Why? Doesn't matter of he respects the enlighten race. He would turn on us the very instant another threatening 'Apocalypse' happened cause he's an protector of Vana'diel, not the people who live there, which he despises.

Pheonix would be lovely (another fire avatar? Yes, please.) but unless Selh'teus part ways with her so she can get a new body and crystal to match, what's the chance of that happening?

Nothing wrong with this if the summoner he decided to make a pact with (and he made a pact with the Kuluu remember? He mentions it when you first meet him in monarch Linn). I'd be perfectly willing to go along with Bahamut to protect Vana even if me meant being a little unpopular when the next Apocalypse happens.. even though yo know you'll be racing to stop it anyhow... still in line with his purpose. Who knows you might change his attitude. He DID like the Kuluu, you might change his mind about the newer races.

It boils down to: He's too big, won't fit in lots of places, too much work to make him an avatar, PS2 limitations, devs don't have enough coffee to stay up and fix these problems.

[Brightshadow]

In my opinion I believe that the 2 hour Avatars were a big joke why would SE release a avatar and only allow us to use it every two hours? especially since we are the main job that relies on pets What SE should do in my opinion is just make Alexander and Odin into regular avatars, and add Cait Sith and Bahamut, as for Atomos that should be Cait Sith 2 hour Ability. And the other comments SE have made about Bahamut, and the other avatars being consider too strong to be killed by a low level monster thats just dumb these are not the true prime summon, rather a image (Avatar) of there true power. Anyways here a concept for Cait Sith, Alexander, Odin, and Bahamut just for fun :p . (By the way by Advance Summon I don't really mean there stronger than the current summons what I mean is that you need to be Level50 to actually have the spell available to summon them to atleast keep there powerful image and not be summoned by low level summoners.)

Alexander
Unlike other summons Alexander cannot move he is like a worm casting range bloodpacts, his basic attack is a range attack called Radiant Sacrament he does it automatically every 10secs. (Hes a Advance Summon which requires level50 to summon)

Avatar Favor
Increase Magic Defense

Bloodpacts
-Level50-Divine Judgment (Requires Astral Flow)
-Level50-Divine Spear (Bloodpact Rage)
-Level63-Gospel of the Lost (Bloodpact Ward)
-Level79-Perfect Defense (Bloodpact Ward)
-Level85-Holy II (Bloodpact Rage)
-Level89-Void of Repentance (Bloodpact Ward)
-Level99-Mega Holy (Bloodpact rage)

Odin
(Hes a Advance Summon which requires level50 to summon)

Avatar Favor
Increase accuracy

Bloodpacts
-Level50-Zantetsuken (Requires Astral Flow)
-Level50-Ofnir (Bloodpact Rage)
-Level74-Sanngetall (Bloodpact Ward)
-Level81-Yggr (Bloodpact Ward)
-Level87-Valfodr (Bloodpact Rage)
-Level91-Geirrothr (Bloodpact Rage)
-Level99-Gagnrath (Bloodpact rage)

Bahamut
I think that SE should Lower Bahamut size as a avatar to around the size of Diabolos or odin.
(Hes a Advance Summon which requires level50 to summon)

Avatar Favor
Increase Attack

Bloodpacts
-Level50-Terraflare (Requires Astral Flow)
-Level50-Trample (Bloodpact Rage)
-Level72-Sweeping Flail (Bloodpact Rage)
-Level83-Impulsion (Bloodpact Ward)
-Level97-Horrible Roar(Bloodpact Ward)
-Level99-MegaFlare (Bloodpact Rage)

Cait Sith
(Hes a Advance Summon which requires level50 to summon.)

Avatar Favor
Grants Regain Effect

Bloodpacts
-Level50-Soul Vacuum(Requires Astral Flow)
-Level50-Regal Scratch (Bloodpact Rage)
-Level52-Divine Favor (Bloodpact Ward)
-Level77-Eerie Eye (Bloodpact Ward)
-Level92-Level ? Holy (Bloodpact Rage)
-Level99-Mewing Lullaby

While it is a lot of adjustments I don't really think it so much work because all the tools are basically already in the game. The only thing SE would have to do is balance the Abilities in Avatar Form, Scale down Bahamut for avatar form, Add the favors to the game, the quest for Cait Sith, plus adjustments to the whisper of Bahamut.

[Vangoh]

I second this ^

[Kristal]

Alexander and Odin are 2-hour summons because any extended period of summoning would cause Ragnarok. The 2-hour summoning is used to siphon off their power so they cannot enter through the astral disturbances near Nashmau and in the Alzadaal Ruins on their own.

Bahamut cannot be summoned, as he's not an astral entity. He's a very real wyrm, and he'd prefer us all dead to prevent Emptyness from engulfing Vana'diel in the future.

Cait Sith and Atomos are very real candidates for new summons (I believe this was mentioned by a CR), with Cait Sith being a regular summon on par with Carbuncle, while Atomos is likely a 2-hour summon using Soul Vacuum followed by Soul Infusion.

[Tannlore]

Bahamut cannot be summoned, as he's not an astral entity. He's a very real wyrm, and he'd prefer us all dead to prevent Emptyness from engulfing Vana'diel in the future..

I have to take exception to this part as the terrestrial avatars are all very real. In fact if the celestials wake up, they go back to being mindless beasts. Bahamut could just as easily lend a portion of his power as Carbuncle, Diabolos or Fenfir do. If nothing else, Bahamut's level of power should make such a feat so easy for him to do yes? I mean if carbuncle can lend his power to god knows how many hundreds of thousands of adventurers and not go "poof!" certain Bahamut can as well.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I'm always a bahamut advocate. It's the one thing this game is realy lacking. Also, he should be a 2hr only smn, using the move Maga Flare.

2) SE not wanting to knock Bahamut off his pedestal of high power and thus creating a less powerful version (aka capable of being defeated by a rabbit or worm) just so Summoners can have him and not make him overpowered.He's not as bad ass as you're trying to make him sound here. After all, he is just a lowly terrestial avatar and not one of the celestial avatars that we can already summon.

[Erecia]

SE has stated that they do not want to lessen Bahamut's impact in lore and the game. If that is 'mindless chatter' to you, maybe you need to play another game.
Two approaches here.

The first is fighting lore with lore. If you remember your CoP plotline, there were five terrestrial avatars - Carby, Fenrir, Diabolos, Phoenix, and Bahamut. Three of those five have already given up and let us summon them. Phoenix rather can't, being mostly dead still and

... actually, you know what, screw wherever else I thought I was going with this post. A phoenix rebirth avatar summon quest would be awesome.

[Soranika]

Gonna have to talk to Selh'teus about that. Last I remember, he absorbed the essence of Phoenix after Tenzen expended the last of her energy in the confrontation with Bahamut.

[Erecia]

Yeah, I know. Guarding the mothercrystal and all that. But that was a while ago. I could easily see a "Phoenix has regained nearly enough power to attempt to enter this world but needs adventurers to beat him up for poorly explained plot-related reasons to finally be reborn" type quest at this point. If it was good enough for Odin and Alex, it could work for her too.

[Divinechild]

Bump

Since it's Year of the Wyrm" how about that Bahamut?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Bump

Since it's Year of the Wyrm" how about that Bahamut?

Never going to happen now. Only chance of it coming is via SMN's 2-hour and even then it's slim to no chance.

[Psxpert2011]

I think Bahamut should be a summon! Not a summon like the rest but as we are used to from the beginning of all summons in the FF series. A summon spell actually calling up a one shot spell for Bahamuts ability or attack. "Mega FLare" anyone?

[Saiken253]

I think Bahamut should be a summon! Not a summon like the rest but as we are used to from the beginning of all summons in the FF series. A summon spell actually calling up a one shot spell for Bahamuts ability or attack. "Mega FLare" anyone?

only if it doesn't require our 2hr