FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustments Manifesto: Paladin

[Rorrick]

I'm beginning to wonder if the development team is even aware that the Paladin sub-forum exists. If they are, they must not care. Paladin, at this point, is probably one of the least useful jobs in the game, and we receive the least amount of communication from Camate and the other community reps.

Personal grievances aside, the Manifesto's plan for Paladin does nothing to address the job's inability to contribute anything to any situation (barring precious few scenarios where the MDT from Aegis comes in handy, but requiring an Aegis or Ochain is obviously an unacceptable solution).

So, with that said, let's have a look at the vision for the job and example adjustments and see if we can't get Camate or one of his friends to make an appearance and set our minds at ease. Because we all know, Paladin is the best dressed class in the game.

Vision
We respect the unselfish and bold nature of the paladin, so we plan on further developing their ability to maintain control of battles and keeping others out of harm's way, if only temporarily.

What abilities do the development team see as helping Paladin to control a battle? Prior to the Cover adjustment, it had Flash, a spell on a 45 second cooldown, Shield Bash, an ability of a five minute cooldown whose primary purpose is stun, not enmity generation, and Sentinel and Rampart, two more abilities on five minute cooldowns whose primary uses are defensive, and whose enmity gains are marginal and temporary to begin with. Divine Emblem is a ten minute recast. I think that's all I really need to say about it. None of these even approach being enough to balance out the enmity gain from raw damage that most jobs do.

Additionally, I think this is the right place to put my observation. Paladin is not needed to keep others out of harm's way. Nearly every other job in the game has some defensive mechanism by which they null damage. Thief, Ninja and Dancer all have exceptionally high evasion, Monk has Counterstance, Samurai, and any other two-handed damage dealer, has Seigan and Third Eye, and everyone has the capacity to set their support job as Ninja to gain access to Utsusemi. Also consider that all the above have significantly shorter cooldowns and significantly longer durations than any of Paladin's tools. Theoretically, Paladin's Shield is a great defensive tool. In practice, outside of Ochain (and Aegis to a lesser extent) the rate at which we block is substantially lower than the rate at which most of the above methods null damage completely. We also have the misfortune of still being hit, and thus being afflicted with whatever nasty additional effect the enemy has. You may cite the defense stat, but we all know that's just a joke.

From where I stand, there is a clear divide in the path of the evolution of Paladin when compared to any other job. Where other jobs have developed methods to mitigate or void damage to compliment their offensive capabilities, Paladin stands alone as the single job that has continued to "grow" (I use that term loosely with regards to Paladin) in a purely defensive capacity. The single legitimately offensive tool it gained through nine years of updates and adjustments, Atonement, has been rendered impotent by the rate at which enmity decays and by the magic resistance of most current endgame enemies, as well as made irrelevant by the staggering weaponskill damage most jobs are capable of, inside or outside Abyssea. Paladin, too, has access to a devastating weaponskill, but requiring an Empyrean weapon in order to be passably effective is not an acceptable solution. Sword weaponskill have always been lacking when compared to any other weapon class.

In short, Paladin does not have dominion over the singular role it has been groomed to fill.

With all that being said, let's have a look at the example adjustments.


Example Adjustments Adding a new ability that reduces the amount of damage taken by a party member for one hit.

I don't really understand this. It almost feels like the development team is laughing at us by acknowledging the fact that Paladin never has the enemy's attention, and is reducing us to backline buffers. And one hit? At least give it a timed duration. Given the precedent, I assume this would have a five to ten minute cooldown? Waits that long and durations that brief are just impractical, and that goes for every ability Paladin has or will receive. The Cover tweak was a (small) step in the right direction (increased utility and duration, with a reasonable cooldown), although I would still like to see Cover made a job trait.

Adding a new ability that slows enmity reduction.


This is potentially very useful, but I see two obstacles. First, you've listed it as a job ability, not a trait. This worries me as it would likely succumb to the short-duration-and-unbearably-long-cooldown sickness that plagues Paladin. I would much rather see it as a job trait, so Paladin can maintain some level of effectiveness despite the disturbing frequency with which I find the Amnesia icon at the top of my screen.

The second is that I fear this would be an incredibly small reduction (as SE has been wont to do in the past), ultimately having no impact. It needs to be a substantial decrease in enmity decay to combat the rapid enmity gain of damage dealing jobs.

I would personally like to see some abilities and traits that suppress the enmity gain of party members, or decrease the damage done to the Paladin while they hold the enemy's attention. Perhaps an ability or trait that somehow increases the damage Paladin does relative to their enmity levels (in other words, applying the Atonement mechanic in a much broader way). Paladin is all about maintaining the enemy's attention. Please, give us the tools to do so.

Of course, nothing you do will matter unless content is introduced that actually involves some risk for Paladin to mitigate. As things stand, current endgame is all reward, no risk.

[Aeonk]

Abyssea is the Colibri burn merit pt 2.0

PLD can be functional in abyssea, provided you know how to play the job to it's best and are willing to work on things like an empyrean or 2. You won't be 100% optimal (and elistists on forums will take nothing less. only 3 jobs exist at any given time after all) but you can certainly do things with the job.

Right now with Voidwatch, PLD does just fine in that regard too. And it's being expanded on in the near future (to hopefully contain gear that won't just be sidegrades.)

Right now PLD isn't 100% required anymore, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Rorrick]

It has not been required, or particularly useful for, anything in years, going well back into the ToAU era (and probably further back, but at least in earlier times it maintained the illusion of utility). No Paladin is going to outparse any damage dealer with two braincells to rub together without a large disparity in gear availability. As already stated, making Empyrean weapons prerequisites for being at all useful is not a solution.

As far as Voidwatch is concerned, I'd say the only place Paladin is legitimately useful if on the T4s, and only if you have Aegis and/or Ochain. without one or the other you can easily swap the Paladin out for a competent damage dealer and do just as well or better. This is the problem; Paladin excels at nothing. Even the one thing it's supposed to be champion of is done better by other jobs.

For years, every other job has evolved to become multifaceted while Paladin remains handcuffed to a role that does not, and has not for some time, have a place in the game.

[Aeonk]

People put wayyy too much faith in DD tanks. 90% of the DD's out there don't carry a scrap of dmg mitigation, both MDT or PDT. In fact, why not ask some members of your own LS just how many of them are carrying these sets on them at all times, and macro them in for every WS/spell the mob does? Until every DD plays like this, PLD will always have a role as the "safer" tank for HNM's. And that fact is even more blatant when a PLD is packing Ochain/Aegis.

Edit: Should probably make a point rather than just refute yours. I've been suggesting a DD output increase for PLD since some of my first posts on these forums. It's a better alternative than this "seperate hate cap" bullshit that's been going around these threads. Right now, the only thing available that's even considered a step in the right direction is Almace/Excalibur. I'd love to actually be able to DD on par with other pure DD jobs without requiring some "hard" gear to obtain, but until SE intervenes I'll make do with what I have.

[Rorrick]

People put wayyy too much faith in DD tanks. 90% of the DD's out there don't carry a scrap of dmg mitigation, both MDT or PDT. In fact, why not ask some members of your own LS just how many of them are carrying these sets on them at all times, and macro them in for every WS/spell the mob does?

All the DDs I play with (myself included) carry MDT/PDT sets (and idle sets, low accuracy sets, regen sets, evasion sets, I carry a counter set for MNK, blah blah blah) and swap them in appropriately, but that's irrelevant. The point is to make Paladin useful regardless of the "skill" level of the players involved. Where competent players are involved, Paladin has no place in the game, and that's an issue. Everyone can get better at the game, but it's pretty hard to get worse. It may be safer (and without Aegis or Ochain this is debatable), but damage dealing tanks are already safe enough.

I don't really care how Square decides to go about buffing Paladin, but they seem hell-bent on keeping it the only pure defensive job in the game, which is why my initial post was curtailed to that side of the debate. Paladin's ingame description is, after all, "A warrior that, through long hours of training, acquired the ability to wield white magic." Where did the Warrior half of this job go?

[Naix]

"A warrior that, through long hours of training, acquired the ability to wield white magic." Where did the Warrior half of this job go?

Not just the warrior half, how about the white magic half? PLD are by far the most ineffecient at healing in the game of jobs that receives cures natively. SE could be creative in this aspect but has neglected it too. Something like Cura/Cura2 that whms get, a low cost AOE cure spell that will heal more as you take more damage. Something like that sounds like it was MADE for pld lol.

[Lutschfactor]

actually rorrick they do at least look at the pld forums. i have been banned in the pld forums b4. so they look. but dont touch coz they really dont care to much and it shows. and its sad coz pld is a really good job.

[Nightdew]

I would suggest a boost in PLDs DPS too. Chatting about Aby, the real problem is how a MNK can tank safely, taking a lot of damage and possibly doing even more of it. A MNK can take down an NM without many difficulties being healed by 1-2 decent WHMs, and moreover he can do it in a fast way. All DMG mitigation gears & Enmity abilities are useless to him, since he's damaging the target like only a WAR could do.
Reality is that at the moment a PLD can average a decent MNK only by having both Almace and Ochain. And this is bad.
Outside Aby doesn't count so much, since aside a few exceptions like Novio, Defending Ring, Ridill and some Hachiryu pieces all old gear is worthless gear.
Please give a boost to PLD attack ^^, maybe some kind of JA that unbounds PLDs rage against a target in proportion to damage taken while using it ... I wouldn't dislike neither to get at lvl99 "Sancta" to make Divine Emblem worth to be used ^^

[Motenten]

Was a JP post early this morning (about 12 hours ago now) for pld, so expect to get a proper translation soon.

Couple simple points made that I could pull from Google Translate:

No change in the hate cap.

No intention of adding more offensive power (even something as minor as the Fencer trait).

[Camate]

Howdy!

Sorry to make all of you paladins wait! While this might not cover every single question and request we have seen, the below is a hefty portion of responses toward your feedback.



We would like the enmity cap to be raised.

When considering the nature of the game, we would like to leave the enmity cap as it is currently and focus instead on specific adjustments for each job.


Add an ability that has a high amount of enmity like Provoke.

We are currently looking into adjustments that will make it possible for paladins to up the amount of enmity they gain in situations where party members’ enmity is steadily rising due to high damage output. However, as was shown in the concept, instead of an ability like Provoke that gives a spike in enmity, we are focusing more on the direction of adding elements that will allow of enmity gain as a part of defense and being able to maintain a high amount of enmity that has been accumulated.


Add an ability like in Ballista where you can constantly hold a target’s attention for a set period of time.

This seems like it would be a good stat to be granted during Invincible. We will look into it.


It’s really rough trying to maintain the focus of enemies that have enmity reset abilities. Do you have anything planned for this?

Though we haven’t decided on the specific effects and implementation method, we will be preparing some method to address this.


Add an ability that absorbs a party/alliance member’s enmity.

Though it doesn’t absorb enmity directly, Cover has an effect that is very close.


Reduce the recast timer on Shield Bash.

When we make adjustments to the merit point system we will look into making changes to the recast timer when applying merit points to Shield Bash.


Increase the activation rate of shield blocks.

In the next version update, we are planning to add an ability that will temporarily increase the activation of shield blocks as well as make is so no enmity is lost.


Are you planning any kind of specialized mode change for shield defense?

While it will require you to be under the effect of an ability, we are thinking of making a new ability similar to what you described that focuses on raising the defensive stats of your shield.


We would like an increase in enmity effect when our shields activate.

The concern here is that stats for shields with high block rates (like Ochain) would become too high. Since we would have to make balance adjustments such as raising the shield activation rate on other shields, we are currently not thinking about this.


Make it possible to use Cover on alliance members as well.

Since Cover was designed to only function with party members, it would be necessary to carefully look into the balance of battles if we expanded it to cover alliance members, so it is not something we can change without a lot of testing. This is same way we approach all abilities and spells for jobs.


When using Cover, we would like the offset enmity to be given to the paladin.

Thief’s Trick Attack ability already features a similar effect, so we’d rather they be used in this type of situation.


Add an ability that makes it so an enemy’s AoE attack does not affect other party members when the paladin is the main target.

While we will not be making it so AoE attacks are totally avoidable, we are looking into making it so that the effect of Sentinel can be spread to party members for a period of time to protect them.


Add an enmity bonus to Cure.

We’d like to look into if we could add something to merit points that would be like an enmity boosting version of Tranquil Heart.


I’m pretty sure that Fencer should be for paladin…

Paladin has a high amount of defense, so we are not thinking about adding a high amount of attack power on top of their defense currently.

[Karbuncle]

Ouch town on that last one :\

(The other answers sound really interesting)

[Bubeeky]

Just some observations from an outsider (whm main) the biggest issue I've noticed from plds isn't enmity control usually...it's the fact that where a dnc or nin or thf can flat out avoid any attacks they can't just take, pld lacks a similar ability, and they aren't usually any better at taking some attacks...can we maybe see something for pld that helps them either avoid more attacks or overall take less damage or something, so that they can survive the damage they take?

[Xellith]

I hate stupid answers like "Oh HAI if you want to lose enmity then get a thf to collab u lulz" They seem to say it every single time.

[Coldbrand]

I really don't think the devs play this game at a high level in any capacity.

[Hioki]

While this might not cover every single question

I see what you did thar...

[Septimus]

Just some observations from an outsider (whm main) the biggest issue I've noticed from plds isn't enmity control usually...it's the fact that where a dnc or nin or thf can flat out avoid any attacks they can't just take, pld lacks a similar ability, and they aren't usually any better at taking some attacks...can we maybe see something for pld that helps them either avoid more attacks or overall take less damage or something, so that they can survive the damage they take?

As someone else who isn't a PLD, this isn't the main problem. Paladins do lose some Enmity when hit but they get it back very quickly; the real issue is that melees and BLMs do so much damage now that they hit the hate cap very quickly and stay there. Without giving players some way to get rid of Cumulative Enmity or allowing PLDs to exceed the hate cap, boosting PLD Enmity gain is not going to help.

[Unleashhell]

I'd like to know who comes up with some of these questions. Cause they obviously don't play the job or they should consider playing a different job. None of what is mentioned will fixes PLD or will help in any way.

This is more of what needs to change. Need to scroll down.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11514-The-dev-s-vision-for-pld-and-the-problem-i-see-with-it

[Thala]

None of these points address the issue of damage generating too much enmity, making it frustratingly difficult to hold hate off of any heavy DD. Enmity formulas do not scale well into modern end game, particularly Abyssea. Worse yet, even if PLD is suddenly able to keep hate at a reasonable rate, so what? These days, any melee with shadows can be cure bombed and function as a proper tank for a large majority of fights. The difference between PLD/NIN and any other melee/NIN is marginal at best. There's very little that sets PLD apart in terms of taking damage. A PLD might die in 10 hits instead of 8, but that's hardly a noticeable difference. Meanwhile, NIN MNK THF and DNC all have means of avoiding damage all together, and damage that is unavoidable is no more avoidable on PLD. In short, taking no damage > taking some damage.

If PLD is going to be able to hold a place among the modern "tank", then they need to be able to gain and keep enmity for the large majority of a given fight, and they need to be able to consistently mitigate a substantial amount of damage, beyond once every 5 minutes, once every 2 hours, or through uncontrolled armor set procs, and without the use of a relic or empyrean shield.

[Defiledsickness]

they need to just make pld usable again. increase dmg enough that you can play pld without gimping your party. dnc has high curing/eva/dt- and subtle blow to keep it a decent job (if not needed). nin has huge eva+shadows+migawari. thf has the most eva and TH. so pld is only useful for VW or magic resist builds.

this means i'll never finish pld because when will i ever play it? i cant skill up shield or parry atm unless i go solo and why would i waste time doing that? and im definitely not wasting time farming seals or +2 items or go get the empy/relic shields.

so pld will stay a job used only by people who had it for 5+ years. so give us a migawari spell with recast/duration that allow you to full-time it. and we need to be able to self-skillchain and magic burst holy so we can dd. sam/dnc/blu have abilities to do this, it wont hurt to let pld.

-oh ya and mnk is a better face tank then us cuz of HP. pld is just lame atm

[Coldbrand]

As someone else who isn't a PLD, this isn't the main problem. Paladins do lose some Enmity when hit but they get it back very quickly; the real issue is that melees and BLMs do so much damage now that they hit the hate cap very quickly and stay there. Without giving players some way to get rid of Cumulative Enmity or allowing PLDs to exceed the hate cap, boosting PLD Enmity gain is not going to help.

LALALA WE CAN'T HEAR YOU

[esoR]

correct me if i'm wrong.. but isn't pld the only job left that single wields a main hand weapon? i know beast can.. but there's no point to it... and war will never single wield an axe...

why SE.. why?

[Coldbrand]

They don't actually parse anything or work with real math or real gameplay, they probably just say "oh well paladin takes significantly reduced damage so therefore they can't dish any out."

[Darkwizardzin]

correct me if i'm wrong.. but isn't pld the only job left that single wields a main hand weapon? i know beast can.. but there's no point to it... and war will never single wield an axe...

why SE.. why?

Because pld appently isn't a dd job.

[Tezz]

It is most unfortunate that SE doesn't seem to know how to deal with these issues in a relevant matter. Shame on you SE, and shame on you community team for not pushing the devs a bit harder.

[Andrien]

@ Coldbrand. I agree. Even a BST pet can steal hate just by melee alone. This is totally whack.



Perhaps if making PLD melee hits occasionally trigger some kind of enmity spike equivalent to a weapon skill without the damage, but just the enmity we would see better hate control.

Edit:
Cure IV doesn't even cut it anymore. The amount of HP we have we're just eating away MP keeping ourselves healed in Abyssea or outside Abyssea.

[Kari]

SE clearly does not play the same game we do.

Let's say for example I'm doing an NM with these jobs:
PLD, DNC, MNK, and WAR.
Very quickly into the fight, all four are going to be capped on hate. [Likely, the PLD last.]
Then the mob gets to swap targets over and over as we all take turns being at the top of the hate list.

Now...explain to me how any of the questions answered are going to help PLD not only maintain hate, but prevent other people from constantly capping hate.
Then explain to me why I'd want a PLD tanking instead of a job that can tank as well as do damage.

At current, PLD has very limited use, even in low man.
And stop trying to cover enmity issues up with THF.
THF does not help with the current enmity system, no matter how much you want it to.
Accomplice/Collab have too long of a recast timer to be useful in a fight -- and when used, it's only noticeable in a couple situations. When hate is capped on everyone and bouncing around, the person you take hate from will immediately get it back anyhow.
Trick Attack is nothing but a damage tool now. Again, with capped hate there's no real change when I TA + Rudra's someone. THF is not some master of enmity control, SE. Update your jobs or systems properly and stop using THF as an excuse not to.

I really hope SE gets a new staff member who actually plays this game to explain to them how things work in practice, and not just theory.

Also still upset that there's no Q&A for DNC yet. :<

[Darkwizardzin]

As someone else who isn't a PLD, this isn't the main problem. Paladins do lose some Enmity when hit but they get it back very quickly; the real issue is that melees and BLMs do so much damage now that they hit the hate cap very quickly and stay there. Without giving players some way to get rid of Cumulative Enmity or allowing PLDs to exceed the hate cap, boosting PLD Enmity gain is not going to help.

not saying that this statment is conpletely false... but enmity douse says hi.

[Anethia]

Ok I wasn't actually going to comment on this but after reading Camate's post I can't seem to resist. Its been a while since I've posted anything since I took a month long break from the game. But I had an idea on how to help paladin out.

Nothing in Camate's post seemed even remotely helpful to the situation my favorite job seems to have found itself in. Therefore I have thought about a new JA for paladin that would suit the job perfectly, in my opinion of course.

Holy Judgement:
Duration: 1~3 minutes
Recast time: 3~5 minutes
Effect: All actions taken by the Paladin while under the effect of Holy Judgement will see an increase in their base effect/damage and duration (excluding Enhancing Magic)
*Effect can be dispelled

Examples
*All curative spells will cure for double the base amount and increased enmity gain.
*Offensive Spells like holy and banish spells will do double their base damage and Flash will have a higher enmity spike. (I know someone is going to mention Divine Emblem's effect however, that effect only works for one cast and the recast timer is far to long to make it useful)
*Defensive actions such as Sentinel, rampart, and cover will see an increase in duration with reduced enmity loss.
*All offensive melee actions will see a boost in damage output, including weapon skills (similar to berserk but without the defense down).

This is my idea for an all encompassing JA for Paladin that should help it gain and maintain enmity, without going totally outside the bounds of how the job was designed. I know people are going shoot down some, if not all of my idea's and that's fine, but I just couldn't stomach the "non-solutions" that I was seeing in Camate's response.

Thank you, and have a nice day.

[Cahlum]

PLD just isnt good for abyssea how many people in this thread have killed a voidwatch NM without a PLD?

[Xellith]

I killed a voidwatch NM with a pld... but it reset hate every other move so I didnt really do anything... id say being pointless counts the same as not even being there.

[Darkwizardzin]

SE clearly does not play the same game we do.

Let's say for example I'm doing an NM with these jobs:
PLD, DNC, MNK, and WAR.
Very quickly into the fight, all four are going to be capped on hate. [Likely, the PLD last.]
Then the mob gets to swap targets over and over as we all take turns being at the top of the hate list.

Now...explain to me how any of the questions answered are going to help PLD not only maintain hate, but prevent other people from constantly capping hate.
Then explain to me why I'd want a PLD tanking instead of a job that can tank as well as do damage.

At current, PLD has very limited use, even in low man.
And stop trying to cover enmity issues up with THF.
THF does not help with the current enmity system, no matter how much you want it to.
Accomplice/Collab have too long of a recast timer to be useful in a fight -- and when used, it's only noticeable in a couple situations. When hate is capped on everyone and bouncing around, the person you take hate from will immediately get it back anyhow.
Trick Attack is nothing but a damage tool now. Again, with capped hate there's no real change when I TA + Rudra's someone. THF is not some master of enmity control, SE. Update your jobs or systems properly and stop using THF as an excuse not to.

I really hope SE gets a new staff member who actually plays this game to explain to them how things work in practice, and not just theory.

Also still upset that there's no Q&A for DNC yet. :<

ok Keep in mind im not a pld so I may not know what im talking about but.... last i checked the problem above (in bold) was mostly a pld issue in abyssea.

Also I've been hearing that pld is very useful in voidwatch.... aka where end game currently is right now.

I'm not saying pld has 0 problems..... but maybe you all are being alittle harsh all the same.

[Cahlum]

Well for higher tier voidwatch NMs we just bring two PLDs and hate reset is not a problem then as one PLD will always have hate

[Darkwizardzin]

Well for higher tier voidwatch NMs we just bring two PLDs and hate reset is not a problem then as one PLD will always have hate

also this ^

[Cahlum]

I'm not pretending PLD doesn't have issues it does, everyone capping hate very quickly being the biggest problem but PLD is still very useful in endgame. I'd like PLD to get a sort of stanced JA like solace that stores enmity that they can then convert onto themselves in the event of a hate reset to regain hate. Razed Ruins won't be there forever.

[Septimus]

not saying that this statment is conpletely false... but enmity douse says hi.

I'll remember that the next time I have too much hate on WAR.

...

Oh.

[Zagen]

Also I've been hearing that pld is very useful in voidwatch.... aka where end game currently is right now.

The thing is that's 1 event, and the only event PLD is "needed" at least currently. I'm of the assumption there will be more content like Voidwatch and PLD will come back into the light as a dedicated tank role is needed. Now another assumption I'm making is that SE will introduce easier content (similar difficulty scale of Abyssea and WoE for example) as not everyone who plays the game likes "hard" content. Easier content means PLD isn't needed as a Tank. So if that does happen and if that easier content is the majority of the "endgame" at 99 like it is now, then PLD will still be a 1 trick pony and that does not equate to a fixed job.




I'll remember that the next time I have too much hate on WAR.

...

Oh.

WAR cares about hate? >.> My WAR/SAM Loves hate it means I get to kill a monster that much faster with Retaliation and the increased TP return for more Weapon Skills.
Edit: If the monster is something that can actually kill my WAR if I pull hate then you know what I do? I hold back, I turn around, I sit on TP, etc. There are lots of ways to keep X job from capping/recapping hate these methods were used in the old days I wonder if you remember those.

[Kuraudo]

Thank you for the response and hard work, Camate! :) So far I love the majority of the things I have read on what is being planned for PLD. There are a few responses though that I'd like to talk about.




We are currently looking into adjustments that will make it possible for paladins to up the amount of enmity they gain in situations where party members’ enmity is steadily rising due to high damage output. However, as was shown in the concept, instead of an ability like Provoke that gives a spike in enmity, we are focusing more on the direction of adding elements that will allow of enmity gain as a part of defense and being able to maintain a high amount of enmity that has been accumulated.

It's already quite easy to reach the hate cap to the point where the paladin and other damage dealers will be bouncing it back and forth. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of being able to up my enmity in that certain situation but I'm not sure if it will get us anywhere. How about adding something to paladin that suppresses enmity gain on other players for a brief moment?

I'll use Synchronic Blitz from Voidwatch as an example. When we strike a highly vulnerable weakness on the Voidwatch NM we have all the damage dealers go in and do damage. When this happens all of the damage dealers are doing insane amounts of damage to the NM causing them to basically be at the hate cap. At this point in time is when it would be nice for paladin to be able to suppress the amount of enmity the damage dealers gain.

Just a thought...


Though it doesn’t absorb enmity directly, Cover has an effect that is very close.

I've done some testing with Cover and it does seem to lower the enmity of the person you're covering, but I'm not sure if it works every time from what I've seen. (Maybe it's broken?)

I love what cover can do now, but do you think it would be possible to cover melee attacks like that of the Iron Giant, Hahava, and Celaeno? This would be great! :)


Since Cover was designed to only function with party members, it would be necessary to carefully look into the balance of battles if we expanded it to cover alliance members, so it is not something we can change without a lot of testing. This is same way we approach all abilities and spells for jobs.

I know this will require your testing, but us paladins feel quite useless when we can't protect our other members when they're in dire need of it. :(

Allowing us to be able to cover anyone in our alliance would be one of the greatest things you could do to paladin. Pretty please with sugar on top, Camate? ;)

[Septimus]

WAR cares about hate? >.> My WAR/SAM Loves hate it means I get to kill a monster that much faster with Retaliation and the increased TP return for more Weapon Skills.
Edit: If the monster is something that can actually kill my WAR if I pull hate then you know what I do? I hold back, I turn around, I sit on TP, etc. There are lots of ways to keep X job from capping/recapping hate these methods were used in the old days I wonder if you remember those.

So, instead of improving Paladins, we should instead do less damage? That solves all of the problems.

And don't try to condescend to me about the "old days". I spent years in a tree trying to get a dragon. I was in the first NA group that ever killed Tiamat. I was in the first group that ever fought Jailer of Love who found out that it invincible. I know all about the old days.

[starfxcker000]

It's already quite easy to reach the hate cap to the point where the paladin and other damage dealers will be bouncing it back and forth. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of being able to up my enmity in that certain situation but I'm not sure if it will get us anywhere. How about adding something to paladin that suppresses enmity gain on other players for a brief moment?

I'll use Synchronic Blitz from Voidwatch as an example. When we strike a highly vulnerable weakness on the Voidwatch NM we have all the damage dealers go in and do damage. When this happens all of the damage dealers are doing insane amounts of damage to the NM causing them to basically be at the hate cap. At this point in time is when it would be nice for paladin to be able to suppress the amount of enmity the damage dealers gain.

Just a thought...

I agree with this. Or, something else I was thinking, since enmity is divided into cumulative and volatile, why not make it so that all jobs accrue less cumulative enmity? Like, maybe half or less of what they used to? Back then, it was really hard to reach that cumulative enmity cap, which is why Paladin was always on top. It's difficult when say, a Samurai, runs in and does a solo Light skillchain for like 6k and that basically caps their hate. Back then, no one was doing 6k anything, which is why it wasn't so difficult to get hate back.

I mean, I understand that it's the Samurai's fault in this situation for doing that much damage and pulling off the tank, but at the same time, why bother getting better as a damage dealer if getting better means you're just going to get killed because the Paladin spent 5 minutes capping their enmity and the Samurai then takes 5 seconds to cap their's and then get killed? I really think the rate at which we cap cumulative enmity should be lowered. Like, way lowered. Just a thought anyway.

[Kari]

ok Keep in mind im not a pld so I may not know what im talking about but.... last i checked the problem above (in bold) was mostly a pld issue in abyssea.

Also I've been hearing that pld is very useful in voidwatch.... aka where end game currently is right now.

I'm not saying pld has 0 problems..... but maybe you all are being alittle harsh all the same.

This is true outside of Abyssea as well.
Maybe not for everyone, I suppose, but any situation where your DDs are fairly good.
A majority of the DDs in my LS have an Empyrean weapon, and are able to hate cap outside of Abyssea quite easily.
Abyssea makes it happen easier with less gear, but outside, a well geared DD is still going to have problems with the hate cap. It also means the PLD is going to have a harder time hitting hate cap themselves, even if it means they only get to bounce hate back and forth.

I'd really like to see a "stance" type skill for PLD that gives them some sort of "Absorb Enmity from nearby Alliance members" aura. Though, it might be a bit out of the question. If the aura was constant enough, it'd prevent DDs from hitting the absolute hate cap, and keep them just under it, while the PLD would be constantly hitting the top.
Hopefully SE does something.
I don't play PLD, and I probably won't anytime in the near future, but PLDs definitely need some help, and SE is proving they don't understand what PLD needs.

[Coldbrand]

So, instead of improving Paladins, we should instead do less damage? That solves all of the problems.

And don't try to condescend to me about the "old days". I spent years in a tree trying to get a dragon. I was in the first NA group that ever killed Tiamat. I was in the first group that ever fought Jailer of Love who found out that it invincible. I know all about the old days.
Pst, if you want to be a heavy DD and get away with doing spike damage I hear there's a job that can do that.

[Gaiben]

Just throwing an idea out there based on the direction the manifesto sounds like its going in and what most people think PLD needs. A self only cure spell equal to roughly the healing of Cure V, but with an addition effect that gives a hate over time similar to Helix spells that every 9-10 seconds adds to hate as if you cast the spell again lasting for about a minute. Also throw in a powerful divine spell that does around 600-800 damage with a 90second or more recast that gives the same effect. I honestly don't know exactly how the enmity numbers work, but I think that if we do the effect of illusionary hate for the mobs that a PLD would better keep hate off DD heavy damage. Maybe depending with these effects active it would also avoid the hate reset issues by the fact if the effect is going on at that time it would randomly throw in a bunch of hate on the reset value.

[Septimus]

Pst, if you want to be a heavy DD and get away with doing spike damage I hear there's a job that can do that.

Yeah, everyone go SMN. Now the PLD doesn't have to worry about losing hate. Problem solved without having to fix any borked game mechanics!

[Karbuncle]

Armies of PLDs and SMNs, destroying the game!

and a token WHM, BRD, and RDM.

Maybe a THF.

[Linh]

Paladin has a high amount of defense, so we are not thinking about adding a high amount of attack power on top of their defense currently.

Then make it so people will have a reason to invite a Paladin to the party. For example, having a Paladin in the party would grant an automatic Buff to each person in the Paladin's party depending on their job.

1. All Jobs -25% Enmity gain (except the PLD)
2. Magic Attack Bonus +10 (BLM only), +100 TP Bonus (SAM only) etc.
**This effect would not stack if there's another PLD in the same party

[JovialRat]

SE's solution to the pld holding hate problem is to get a thf in the party..... lame

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

In the next version update, we are planning to add an ability that will temporarily increase the activation of shield blocks as well as make is so no enmity is lost.

This will be different from Reprisal how?

And I realize I'm the only one who cares about this, but when will size 4 shields ever be useful?

[Mightyg]

Paladins damage output is so bad comparatively to other jobs, I don't understand why they can't see that a modest boost could go a long way in helping the pld keep hate control.

They should really consider giving pld a hasso like mode so they have something to contribute when they're not tanking.

[Xellith]

Gamer: "Square enix. Im a whm and i have enmity issues. Will you give us an ability to reduce our enmity? Like a pax spell?"
SE: "We suggest you team up with a thief or sub dragoon so you can jump your hate away"

[Karbuncle]

Its not surprising they're pushing THF when the only thing they want THF to do is TH whore and Control Enmity.

The problem is 25% Enmity on a 1minute timer split across 17 other people in the alliance, 11 of which you can't hit with your JA cause its party only, forcing you to either shift THF through parties, or bring a THF For each party, is not enmity control.

Its a hassle not worth the effort and is a futile attempt at use. If they want THFs to be invited for some form of Enmity control they need to give them real power in the area. 2 Abilities on a shared timer doesn't cut it SE.

Play your game more.

[Rorrick]

SE's solution to the pld holding hate problem is to get a thf in the party..... lame

Holding hate isn't even the problem.

[Andrien]

Give PLD Cure V and let us merit it so it can regen enmity over time. oh ya!

I want Shell V too



I'm running out of ideas. sigh..

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

You could have a THF come along to help your PLD hold enmity!

... or just have the THF tank outright to begin with...

[Sekundes]

We'll just have to start rotating thfs in to the dd party to steal hate from them. I think about 15 should be able to keep a decent dd from getting hate right? I'm honestly disappointed with the ideas for pld.

Just off the top of my head, I'd like to see Fealty actually make you immune to more status effects. Considering it's a 1 minute duration and a minimum of 10 min recast I don't think it'd be too terribly over powered to let you be immune to terror or death.

[Scuro]

What I find funny about this, is that the Devs want us to tank, but they want it to be hell to get hate... Why would you want us to be a tank, but have every other job not only hit harder then us, but faster with all of the DD traits they have. I hardly view Fencer as a game breaker, it would only give us a lower crit amount then most PLDs have when they equip RR to keep hate (must say something to SE if 95% of PLDs equip an atma that grants crits, in order to compete with other jobs to tank..... somebody else smell that coffee or is it just me?), and the more we generate enmity, the less we have to worry about hate decay, and the less we have to worry about hate decay, the more we can tank, and the more we can tank, the more useful PLD will be, and with that finally we can see PLDs actually.... oh Idk, being used...

The problem isn't that we loose hate, its that we share it too easily with other jobs, who gives a crap about loosing enmity, I can tell you right now, no PLD geared properly suffers from this, especially with the gear you can get for it.... so why add more JA's that will pan out to be well..... worthless.

The issue is that the only way we can effectively hold hate, is with provoke, and the only provoke in this game that is effective, is from /WAR... That is the issue SE, nobody cares about enmity decay, because that hasn't been the issue. Why would you preach about opening up this game for jobs, and giving them versatility to match situations, and yet.... you would only have 1 sub that can actually continuously generate hate and become an effective tank (setting damage mitigation aside and focusing on immediate enmity generation). Idk SE, but you sure have us screwed up and on a double edged sword here, you want us to tank, yet you want to grant us no effective way to hold hate.... Please make up your mind on what you want us to be....

I mean there is a reason why PLD started getting haste gear and gear with DD stats on it, because back in the day when you gave us only Defensive Stats, it wasn't enough, and then we had to multi task physical dealing damage and damage mitigation, its about time you wake up and realize that we can't go back to how this game was. When DD's are pushing out 3-4k spike damage, and we are lucky to get a 1k WS, and yet are expected to tank when we are easily out classed in damage. Sure we can take a beating, and thats great, yet it won't do much good, unless all the DD's die and we slowly tank it and dwindle it down.

[cidbahamut]

The issue is that the only way we can effectively hold hate, is with provoke, and the only provoke in this game that is effective, is from /WAR...

This is the part where I realized you weren't serious.

[Kavik]

Bottom line... the dev's dont want to give pld an ability that will effectively HELP pld to cap their enmity quickly, like other jobs can, i go back to the point that, if you don't have hate in the first place, there is NO reason to have gear that reduces enmity lost when taking dmg, to take dmg, unless it's an AoE, you have to have hate, so there is a serious catch 22 here and it seems as if the dev's have no want need or desire to fix it. Also, as a note to the dev's since you seem to finally be sort of reading what we have to say... PLEASE stop answering USELESS questions. I don't mean just as it pertains to pld, i have noticed this on a number of the job threads, these questions have no base in the reality of the player base.

[Heabea]

So yeah i think a great idea would a Shield Throw like Captain America, it's a boomerang so you don't lose your shield, Capt A was a kick ass pld, his shield has more Shield Bash than 10 Aegises...

[Scuro]

This is the part where I realized you weren't serious.

And it was at this point I realized..... your level 6,

anyway, /DNC has provoke (weaker then /WAR voke).... yes, every other has abilities that can gain hate when spammed, sure. Yet /WAR is the only one with a massive hate spike and can be spammed every 15 seconds to continuously feed us hate in a battle against PLD/WAR and PLD/*insert job here* PLD/WAR will be the better initial tank, and because of that will be able to use its tools effectively to keep hate, rather then other jobs that rely on hoping for initial hate so they can use their tools to continuously keep hate, such as jobs like PLD/DNC.

In short, troll else where please.

[cidbahamut]

Provoke is on a 30 second timer dude, I'm not the one who's terribly confused here.

[Scuro]

30, 15, who cares sorry I didn't bother looking it up, point is, its fast and can be used more efficiently then other hate spking tools lol @_@

[cidbahamut]

Not really. Provoke is 1800 VE, that won't hold hate for long at all.

[Camate]

We are aware that paladins are having a difficult time when damage dealers push the limits of their abilities in battle and we plan on making adjustments so that it’s easier for paladins to grab the focus of a target. However, since it would quickly become boring and lack any sense of challenge if party members were able to fight without fear of enmity as long as a paladin is present, it will be necessary to take into account the proper enmity balance between every role in party situations. Not only thieves, but magic and songs amongst other things are there to assist in taming enmity, so it would be beneficial to utilize those tools as well.

In regards to increasing the enmity for paladin’s cures, we are currently looking into it.

Since paladin would pretty much be able to do anything if we increase both its defense and attack, we will not be doing this. (A paladin’s weapon skill damage output isn’t low by any means.)

[Washburn]

We are aware that paladins are having a difficult time when damage dealers push the limits of their abilities in battle and we plan on making adjustments so that it’s easier for paladins to grab the focus of a target. However, since it would quickly become boring and lack any sense of challenge if party members were able to fight without fear of enmity as long as a paladin is present, it will be necessary to take into account the proper enmity balance between every role in party situations. Not only thieves, but magic and songs amongst other things are there to assist in taming enmity, so it would be beneficial to utilize those tools as well.

In regards to increasing the enmity for paladin’s cures, we are currently looking into it.

Since paladin would pretty much be able to do anything if we increase both its defense and attack, we will not be doing this. (A paladin’s weapon skill damage output isn’t low by any means.)

Well, they need something more than not knowing what to do...

What about some "Enhances Provoke" or "Enhances emnity" gear to be used when using provoke or flash. Or possibly make monsters get pissed off (give emnity to pld) that theyre doing less dmg than normal by the use of "Physical Damage Taken -" gear, so neither the DEF nor Attack of a PLD would be a factor into emnity. So stacking PDT gear would result in better emnity, but it would actually eat up slots used for other gear normally used when attacking with weapons like Almace. That would also be beneficial to the people who have spent years building Aegis. the MDT- on it could do the same, which would also benefit them in the same way. NIN tank would also benefit from this by using shadow mantle/ring.

Actually, i like this idea... yeah it'd take some code work, but it's a lot more efficient than trying to come up with new abilities, and formulas for "balancing" pld. People have been upset at pld ever since Abyssea came out... the Atma on DD's has ruined PLD.

[Alhanelem]

Since paladin would pretty much be able to do anything if we increase both its defense and attack, we will not be doing this.Is the development team that certain jobs are already capable of doing "everything" (e.g. monk) and that paladins are *disporportionately* less capable of both defending the party and causing damage?

You can't use a paladin and force all the damage dealers to hold back to let the palading have hate, when a Monk can hold hate through damage and allow the damage dealers to do whatever they want. It just doesn't make sense. Paladin, in some way shape or form, has to be *better* at holding hate than other jobs, or it will never be used to the level it should be. It shouldn't be impossible to take hate from a paladin by any means, but a party shouldn't have to feel like it's making itself weaker by adding a paladin.

[Coldbrand]

Yeah, pretty much for Almace Paladins only as far as WS damage goes.

[Darkwizardzin]

....looks like SE is aware about the problem pld is having... but also sees that its very hard to fix said problem without making the job incredibly overpowered.

......................this doesn't look good for pld.

[Ophannus]

Yeah, pretty much for Almace Paladins only as far as WS damage goes.
Like an Almace is *so* hard to get. If it's so hard for you get the NQ WoE version. Trust me a PLD with Ochain and Almace (both of which are easy as hell to get, I see them everywhere on my server) is far stronger than a MNK or NIN in terms of overall survivability and damage output. With Shield Mastery you're getting tons of TP from shield block procs and your weapon skills are doing 3-5k depending on gear/food/buffs. Even outside Abyssea, CDC still does a solid 2-3k which is higher than most WS in the game outside abyssea.

[Selzak]

In regards to making Paladin a worthwhile job, capable of bringing any sort of usefulness to a party, we currently have no plans of allowing the job to be as good as the jobs that we like (such as NIN and SAM) in either tanking or dealing damage. We suggest that you invite a THF (since we can't figure that one out and someone needs an excuse to) in order to make up for this shortcoming.

[Ophannus]

See how well SAM and MNK tank on Voidwatch NMs. PLDs rejoice that the future of endgame content doesn't lay in Abyssea. MNK/SAM/DNC tanking is dead on newer NMs, they get wrecked. Voidwatch NMs have ridiculous accuracy and spam AoE all day.

[Rorrick]

We are aware that paladins are having a difficult time when damage dealers push the limits of their abilities in battle and we plan on making adjustments so that it’s easier for paladins to grab the focus of a target. However, since it would quickly become boring and lack any sense of challenge if party members were able to fight without fear of enmity as long as a paladin is present, it will be necessary to take into account the proper enmity balance between every role in party situations. Not only thieves, but magic and songs amongst other things are there to assist in taming enmity, so it would be beneficial to utilize those tools as well.

In regards to increasing the enmity for paladin’s cures, we are currently looking into it.

Since paladin would pretty much be able to do anything if we increase both its defense and attack, we will not be doing this. (A paladin’s weapon skill damage output isn’t low by any means.)

Do you understand that Paladins have a difficult time even being invited because most damage dealers are also capable of tanking?

There's no point to better enmity tools if we can't add anything to the battle. There's no need for Paladin's defense, and its potential offense doesn't offset its TP feed.

Atonement damage is capped at 750 (often lower because it's dependant on enmity which is constantly being lost), most other jobs can break 1000 fairly easily with non-Empyrean weaponskills. Inside Abyssea, Vorpal Blade is completely outclassed by nearly everything else available to other jobs. The only real options for Paladin come in the form of Caladbolg and Almace, and expecting every Paladin to have one or both of these is just unreasonable.

Enmity control is a secondary issue. The primary problem is that Paladin adds nothing to a party as endgame currently stands. If you're determined to keep Paladin a defense-only job, why not further enhance our durability instead of handcuffing us to subbing Ninja, to allow us more freedom in our support job choices?

Paladin has been stuck in the mire of mediocrity for years and years. If you don't want to move it towards a stronger offense, that's fine, but that means you must advance it in a defensive direction. Leaving it where it is and focusing on enmity generation will solve nothing.

[Darkwizardzin]

In regards to making Paladin a worthwhile job, capable of bringing any sort of usefulness to a party, we currently have no plans of allowing the job to be as good as the jobs that we like (such as NIN and SAM) in either tanking or dealing damage. We suggest that you invite a THF (since we can't figure that one out and someone needs an excuse to) in order to make up for this shortcoming.

...so in your eyes SE should buff plds attack and def so that it will be an unkillable god that puts all other jobs to shame? Job balance be damned let make pld overpowered so everyone will invite them!

[Nebo]

Not only thieves, but magic and songs amongst other things are there to assist in taming enmity, so it would be beneficial to utilize those tools as well.

Camate, would you please please please convey the feedback that the playerbase says this is not the case.

For THF to be useful or desired for Enmity control, the developement team would need to update the job in a way that would likely upset the balance they are so worried about protecting. It would have mean a THF could always keep enmity on your tank by using its various tools.

This would also mean that a PLD would have to be unable to do its job without a THF.

Collaborator, Accomplice and Trick Attack do not control enmity. Collaborator is a THF tanking tool, and Trick Attack is a DD tool. These are their only functional uses in today's FFXI.

THF can play with enmity...but putting the phrase "enmity control" and THF in the same sentence is a joke.

[Mightyg]

I don't understand how they think paladin weaponskill output is strong. Compared to white mage maybe. Still doesn't change the fact that most melee jobs can weaponskill almost twice as fast in many cases. I can't imagine Paladins parsing much higher than 50% of what a typical melee dd can do assuming they're both engaged for the same time. I certainly don't think Pld should have high damage potential, but things like not hitting for 0-20 on hnm and having an effective magical damage spell you can throw out aren't unreasonable or game breaking.

[Aeonk]

See how well SAM and MNK tank on Voidwatch NMs. PLDs rejoice that the future of endgame content doesn't lay in Abyssea. MNK/SAM/DNC tanking is dead on newer NMs, they get wrecked. Voidwatch NMs have ridiculous accuracy and spam AoE all day.
What this fellow said.

DD tanks are nowhere near optimal outside abyssea. Especially if they aren't packing empyreans. Asuran Fists is nothing special, and you're not tanking Hahava with it. Or even Kholomodumo.

[Nefertiri]

I always thought a trait for PLD that would work something like a "reverse Subtle Blow", where monsters that strike a PLD gain less TP than usual, would have been kinda cool.

[Aramaic]

Okay I usually just sit back and read these forums and try to not have my head explode from the poor understanding of the job by the box burned people and or smn burned PLD's that seem to camp this forum. To those PLD's that actually xp'ed the job and by xp'ed the job I mean leveled it without the aforementioned horribleness as well as syninc it to 75 back in the day.

First off its not SE's fault that you don't have a cure kit build or enmity build for all of your actions towards mobs. Instead of being angry because everyone doing an empy weapon caps hate faster than you. Please get off your ass and use the time you spend here bitching to get an Alamce. Not a WoE ODD doesn't exist weapon an actual Almace where ODD Crits reach 500-600 dmg per swing.

Have all abbysites don't care how long you think it will take you just get them all. Get all atma's needed for getting Savior. By getting these you will have all important Atma's need for the next step. Use appropriate Atma's for CDC build. Either RR,GH, Apoc or RR, Savior, Apoc hell even Omni, RR, Apoc-- I think you get the idea.

Once that is done use actual dex + str + atk gear swaps--- for the love of all things sacred stop ws in the same gear you tank in and than bitch it sucks. In fact stop never changing gear period. If your not blinking enough to give your whm a seizure your not playing the job right. I do have sets for when I don't want my shit pushed in by a HNM and I also have my capped haste tp set both are appropriate use when needed.

Lastly, stop asking for more ways to get enmity. It won't help unless PLD is allowed to surpass the hardcap aka. like with Burtgang passing - PDT cap or Aegis with -MDT cap. I could have 40 job abilities to give me enmity but with the gear PLD has already there is no need for more JA's for enmity. We have plenty at our ready if people would just learn to build their kits right instead of taking the fast lazy way out of begging SE for shit we don't need.

Sorry if this angers anyone but really I don't care, I am just tired of seeing horrible PLD's making legitimate hard working PLD's look like shit. That is all continue to whine now.

[Phen]

Just echoing nebo here, we have one thing in collaborator but thats very little if anything even spammed(especially if you cant tank said monster). Even if we trick attack a paladin the damage on TAWS is not going to generate less hate than the next nuke/ws from anyone else. Please tell us what other abilities Thf is getting for hate control that is has been the response in almost every enmity related response.

Also all paladins--- we know that feel bro---thief forums

p.s. give us something that works like the new ranger JA for enmity transfer over time

[Tsuneo]

It still amazes me that people think there is something wrong with PLD. PLD is fine the way it is, and if you were to boost it's defensive capability it would still be useless in Abyssea. What PLD needs is more endgame like Voidwatch. The fact has been said many times. Increase the need for a PLD and there will be no need to "fix" the job.

[Serj]

Like an Almace is *so* hard to get. If it's so hard for you get the NQ WoE version. Trust me a PLD with Ochain and Almace (both of which are easy as hell to get, I see them everywhere on my server) is far stronger than a MNK or NIN in terms of overall survivability and damage output. With Shield Mastery you're getting tons of TP from shield block procs and your weapon skills are doing 3-5k depending on gear/food/buffs. Even outside Abyssea, CDC still does a solid 2-3k which is higher than most WS in the game outside abyssea.

A pld will never do more damage than an exceptionally geared mnk or nin. Only content a PLD is useful on is higher tier VWNM, more so if they have Aegis/Ochain.

[Kari]

What this fellow said.

DD tanks are nowhere near optimal outside abyssea. Especially if they aren't packing empyreans. Asuran Fists is nothing special, and you're not tanking Hahava with it. Or even Kholomodumo.

...you do know that plenty of people do Voidwatch with a SAM or MNK tank?
PLD isn't required, nor is it that much better, if at all.

I don't see why SE is so worried about making PLD better, half of the jobs in this game are already considered broken when compared to others.
PLD could really use some new tricks, and hopefully some enmity tools that aren't on cooldown forever.

And again, SE needs to stop thinking THF is an enmity master.
Just as well, nobody is going to use Enmity songs/spells/etc just to make PLD "work". Why would they if they could have a MNK [or whatever] tank, do damage, and be able to use songs/spells that don't suck?

Overall I want to see PLD be the most useful tank, but not a requirement.
Though sadly you want as many jobs as possible for Voidwatch's silly proc system anyway, so chances are if you play PLD you might tank anyway.

[Soidisant]

If you want to DD with PLD then you really need an Almace or at the very least a WoE version.

Atonement used to be great but nowadays it just doesn't cut it for three reasons.

1. DD's do far more damage on higher tier content than they once did whilst Atonements damage cap remains unchanged

2. The vast majority of newer NM's at least half resist Atonement damage whereas before virtually nothing did and some stuff even took increased damage from it

3. Most of the newer higher tier NM's have some form of hate reset

[Rorrick]

Okay I usually just sit back and read these forums and try to not have my head explode from the poor understanding of the job by the box burned people and or smn burned PLD's that seem to camp this forum. To those PLD's that actually xp'ed the job and by xp'ed the job I mean leveled it without the aforementioned horribleness as well as syninc it to 75 back in the day.

First off its not SE's fault that you don't have a cure kit build or enmity build for all of your actions towards mobs. Instead of being angry because everyone doing an empy weapon caps hate faster than you. Please get off your ass and use the time you spend here bitching to get an Alamce. Not a WoE ODD doesn't exist weapon an actual Almace where ODD Crits reach 500-600 dmg per swing.

Have all abbysites don't care how long you think it will take you just get them all. Get all atma's needed for getting Savior. By getting these you will have all important Atma's need for the next step. Use appropriate Atma's for CDC build. Either RR,GH, Apoc or RR, Savior, Apoc hell even Omni, RR, Apoc-- I think you get the idea.

Once that is done use actual dex + str + atk gear swaps--- for the love of all things sacred stop ws in the same gear you tank in and than bitch it sucks. In fact stop never changing gear period. If your not blinking enough to give your whm a seizure your not playing the job right. I do have sets for when I don't want my shit pushed in by a HNM and I also have my capped haste tp set both are appropriate use when needed.

Lastly, stop asking for more ways to get enmity. It won't help unless PLD is allowed to surpass the hardcap aka. like with Burtgang passing - PDT cap or Aegis with -MDT cap. I could have 40 job abilities to give me enmity but with the gear PLD has already there is no need for more JA's for enmity. We have plenty at our ready if people would just learn to build their kits right instead of taking the fast lazy way out of begging SE for shit we don't need.

Sorry if this angers anyone but really I don't care, I am just tired of seeing horrible PLD's making legitimate hard working PLD's look like shit. That is all continue to whine now.

I can rattle off the gear in every set I have if you want. Rampart enmity set, Rampart absorbtion set, Cover set, PDT with shield, PDT without shield, Cure IV set (cheat set, potency set and an enmity set), Cure III set (cheat set, potency set, and an enmity set), Flash enmity, Flash hybrid, Flash haste, Utsu Ichi, Utsu Ni, Enhancing, Divine, Holy, two-handed TP set, sword/shield TP set, Vorpal Blade/CDC/Torcleaver/Cataclysm/Flash Nova/Atonement sets, MDT with and without a shield, spell interruption down set, fast cast/haste set, Chivalry set, JA enmity sets, elemental resist sets, low accuracy set, shield skill set (lol), idle set, Refresh/Regen set, kiting sets, blah blah blah.

If you can hold the mob off your friends from the get-go, awesome. They either suck at their jobs or are holding back. The issues with the "I can tank fine you guys must suck" argument are that A) it relies on you having Almace to even be passably effective (which is not a legitimate solution. I don't care how easy you perceive it to be, some people can't devote three days straight to getting one), and it implies that either your friends are playing conservatively, or simply suck at their jobs.

There is no reason to play this game conservatively. Paladin serves no purpose because of this, and hasn't for a long, long time. A competent SAM/DRK/WAR/MNK/NIN can tank just about anything in this game (barring perhaps T4 Voidwatch NMs, I haven't tried one on MNK yet), and take as little, or less damage than a Paladin (barring Ochain, which is, again, not a viable solution). Yet Square insists buffing Paladin's offense would be overpowered, while Monks counter 80% of melee attacks directed at them (70% outside Abyssea), and Ninjas or Thieves just evade them entirely. They also apparently refuse to even advance the job in a defensive capacity, which completely baffles me.

Enmity is not the problem. Paladin contributes nothing to 95% of the game.

[Andrien]

I remember sky party on statue golems at Ullikummi camp, and decorative weapon camps. Those were the days when people expect PLD to gear up defensively for one sole purpose. Tanking.

I see PLD as a enmity machine with all the defensive abilities. However people now don't desire that because its better to defeat monsters as quickly as possible with damage dealers that can take the role as tank. This way they're achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort.

If the dev team don't want to give PLD an attack boost. Then I think it is best to boost our defensive abilities, curing and overall survivability. I think we have the best armor which proves that we're suppose to be best at surviving crippling physical attacks.

After taking sometime to think this through, I couldn't help it. I leave the rest to the devs. Here is my wishlist. (kind of)

Rampert, its basically a weak version of Stoneskin. I like the fact that its good at grabbing some enmity, but I don't like how the magic shield is so weak.

I like the idea of making Sentinel an area of effect ability.

Make Fealty area of effect.

I think Cure V will be a great tool for PLD. If we can merit it to generate enmity it would be fantastic.

I'm not to sure about this. Lower Divine Emblem, Fealty and Chivalry recast timers.

A magic spell for PLD on par with ninjutsu. The effect: lower an enemy resistance towards light/divine magic.

[Atomic_Skull]

Like an Almace is *so* hard to get. If it's so hard for you get the NQ WoE version. Trust me a PLD with Ochain and Almace (both of which are easy as hell to get, I see them everywhere on my server) is far stronger than a MNK or NIN in terms of overall survivability and damage output.

Counter can mitigate almost as much damage as Ochain and also does additional damage in the process. And Verethragna is much, much stronger than Almace.

[Ophannus]

You can't counter a TP move, but you can block it.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

However, since it would quickly become boring and lack any sense of challenge if party members were able to fight without fear of enmity as long as a paladin is present,

You're assuming players care about enmity to begin with.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

First off its not SE's fault that you don't have a cure kit build or enmity build for all of your actions towards mobs.

Ah yes, the eternal answer: MOAR GEAR SWAPS!


Instead of being angry because everyone doing an empy weapon caps hate faster than you. Please get off your ass and use the time you spend here bitching to get an Alamce.

First off, "Go get an empyrean weapon" only really works if nobody else in the group has one.

Secondly, this is a Catch-22: It's kind of hard to go out and get an empyrean when your job is completely useless in the process necessary to get an empyrean.


Have all abbysites don't care how long you think it will take you just get them all.

Same problems as above: only works if nobody else in the group has them, and effectively requires having another 90 job to be useful in getting those abyssites.

(and you'd need serious cajones to suggest just book/key burning another job to 90 after that elitist "old skool" rant you started your post with)

[Defiledsickness]

the only hate control issues pld has is that you cant keep hate over the healers in Abyssea (or i couldn't before almace, maybe i can now). but mnk can reach huge countering in abyssea and never get one shotted (plus do enough dmg to recap the hate lost from dmg taken).

outside abyssea (voidwatch) pld is awesome. even without almace and just using Atonement pld's are good. (of course aegis and ochain are awesome to have) not saying other jobs maybe cant tank, but they dont want to tank Ironclad :P

the only problem pld has is that it uses swords and swords (mostly) suck. the club weaponskill True Strike beats all sword ws's except for CDC. but dont act like SAM is good in abyssea or DRG or DRK. so pld's cant really complain.

[Ophannus]

I rememeber when PLD/NIN made a comeback in terms of usefulness and NIN's complained that PLD was too good and NIN were only for merit parties because PLD could mitigate damage through shield and shadows and hold hate with Atonement. Good old days.

[Defiledsickness]

back when nin was a dd!

[Zagen]

outside abyssea (voidwatch) pld is awesome. even without almace and just using Atonement pld's are good. (of course aegis and ochain are awesome to have) not saying other jobs maybe cant tank, but they dont want to tank Ironclad :P
I haven't done the Voidwatch fight but from the ones inside abyssea and what I've read about the fight, I would first think of Ochain/Aegis PLD as Tank options, and then NIN or THF for evasion tanking, and then MNK for weaker Evasion/DD/HP tank, and then finally PLD with a non-relic/emp shield.

Now you're probably thinking well you haven't done it so you wouldn't know, and you know what you're right I don't know the fight first hand what I do know is that En-Stun, En-Amnesia, and Encumbrance all gimp PLD's ability to tank which is why without the high block rates of Aegis/Ochain I wouldn't think of a PLD first as my tank choice.


but dont act like SAM is good in abyssea or DRG or DRK. so pld's cant really complain.
I hope you're talking about NM fights for proccing red/yellow/blue because DRG is an amazing DD inside abyssea.


PLD is severely broken when the player base can think of 1 event, and only the upper tiers of that event is where a PLD is needed. On top of that it is preferred to have a Relic/Emp Shield to be the preferred tank in that portion of that 1 event.... SE is really blind to this is all I'm getting from their responses.

[Alaik]

I just LOVE how their answer to tanking is "Bring a useless THF". We should totally do it, so that when they realize a THF ain't doing shit for enmity in an alliance, maybe they'll actually fix some of the jobs. (THF, PLD, unbalanced DD classes)

[Defiledsickness]

its ok you havent done the fight im not judging anyone on that. but i have done the fights many many times with my LS. i dont believe Ironclad does any en-amnesia or en-stun like the abyssea versions. mostly aga's and just plain brutal hits. but normally i play rdm and try to keep the mob enfeebled, tanks alive, and whm refreshed (so i dont know exactly what tanks go through). i've seen drk's, thfs, and all kinds of jobs flee in terror from VW mobs.

VW mobs have huge acc, large eva, and impressive damage. any DD with capped skill and an empy can do great dmg and most jobs can do well tanking lower tiers, but PLD is just the best tank here. just like nin and mnk are the best tanks in abyssea.

i agree pld is missing a huge detail somewhere as no one WANTS to be a pld. sure it has its uses but if it wasnt for book burns, none of us would have a tank to party (nin is an okay tank, but even their spike in popularity was leaving parties tankless). so my gripe isnt as much with the fail we got in abyssea, just with the lack of desire to play pld without the fun Almace or to show off aegis/ochain.

[Zagen]

its ok you havent done the fight im not judging anyone on that. but i have done the fights many many times with my LS. i dont believe Ironclad does any en-amnesia or en-stun like the abyssea versions. mostly aga's and just plain brutal hits. but normally i play rdm and try to keep the mob enfeebled, tanks alive, and whm refreshed (so i dont know exactly what tanks go through). i've seen drk's, thfs, and all kinds of jobs flee in terror from VW mobs.
I see so basically it sounds like if you don't have a shield with ridiculous block rate and absorption rate (hi aegis/ochain) you're not that much better off than any other job...

Is your PLD a non-Aegis/Ochain PLD? If so do they /NIN or /WAR?

I'm trying to find out how accurate my guesstimated order of tank preference would be. I would take the questions to PMs as they aren't really on topic necessarily but I can't :(

[Zhronne]

I can accept but I don't understand this approach of not willing to raise the current enmity cap. I assume FFXI developers have their good reasons. But even so, there are other ways to fix the enmity issues.

The current enmity system in the game (the amount of enmity generated by specific JAs like Provoke and all other abilities) is balanced for level 75. Back at level 75 the average damage of a WS or of normal hits was much lower than it is today at level 90.
This is especially true in Abyssea because of Atmas and other buffs, but it's partially true even outside of Abyssea.
This destroyed balancement seriously reduced the efficiency of abilities, spells and other things which were (almost) perfectly balanced for the average damage numbers performed at level 75.

If FFXI developers say they don't want to raise the enmity cap, then they should definitely rework the current Damage>Enmity conversion. I'm sure there is such a value somewhere in the FFXI formulae. Slightly adjusting this value would be much quicker and efficient that fine-tuning every single ability/ws/spell in the game, or creating new job traits/abilities to generate more/less enmity.

Maybe I'm blind or I'm just oversimplifying things, but a slight adjustment of the Damage>Enmity conversion sounds like the smoother and most efficient solution to re-balance the enmity values of fights.

[Zhronne]

Also, and this is an even more personal comment, I find it a bit sad that in all SE official statements they always consider PLD as the only "real" tank in the game. Not saying this is not true, but it makes me think about the old times.
Back in the very very old days we had NIN as the best tank, then PLD was a laughable second choice, but you also had WAR as an excellent offtank, and in some instances MNK. Talking about easier content. NIN was the one used mostly at the time and everybody was laughing at PLD.
That situation was corrected, first they progressively nerfed Utsusemi for NIN, they they added NMs that made Utsusemi less effective and at the same time they buffed PLD. New Sentinel, Shield Mastery, new gear, etc etc. PLD/NIN slowly became the only tank that you could possibly use for end-game events, with NIN as a laughable second option which was still used by some stubborn people/ls, with interesting results which usually required much more effort and worse results. Usually as /RDM or /DRK.
Let's forget for a second about when RDM was the best tank, things got patched quickly anyway.

A lot of this tendencies may have been the fault of the players' limited and oneway mentality, very little people can think out of the box and mostly everybody follows what the "good players" do. Still, we can't deny the changes SE made, or avoided to make, are to blame as well.

What I'm saying is that while I apreciate PLD being an excellent tank, I'd love SE to *seriously* think about giving players other *efficient* tanking options. Be it with new specific gear, abilities, job abilities or whatever. Most other MMO games offer a good selection of tanks, healers, supporters, ranged DPS and melee DPS. It seems to me FFXI has been very "unbalanced" on these regards for way too long. It's time SE really does something *big* to offer new real and useable alternative to tanking, or at least make changes that will consequentially open up the players' mentality.
Am I asking too much for SE to at least acknowledge this request, instead of continuing in their path of thinking of PLD as the only "real" tank for serious situations?

(not talking about Abyssea of course, tanking there is a whole different situation)

[Zagen]

Let's forget for a second about when RDM was the best tank, things got patched quickly anyway.
If by very quickly you mean about 8 years then sure >.>

[Zhronne]

I meant more something like "quickly after more than a bunch of very competent knew about it and it started to spread around a lot even among more average linkshell".
Because before those months when RDM tanking kinda went on a boom, I think only a few people knew about it or rather had the gear, skills and trust to efficiently make use of it?

Maybe I just got the wrong impression, but while I always heard about it, I never really saw a lot of video/people taking full advantage of it (not talking about Avesta or other RDM's soloing things).
Then there has been a certain "boom" of usage on boards like BG and others and more and more and more people started using it. I had some very competent ls mates who started using it, and I saw with my own eyes how powerful it was.
A few months after this boom things got patched.
Did I just get a wrong impression and RDM has awalys been widely used as an HNM tank by HNM ls? Could be.
But it sounds more logical to me that SE eventually decides to "patch it" the moment when its usage has started to spread too much, while they didn't do anything before because they either didn't know or they thought they could tolerate a moderate usage by only a handful of players in the world.

Pardon me if I got a wrong impression or made a very wrong descriptions of the facts that happened back then.

[Zagen]

I meant more something like "quickly after more than a bunch of very competent knew about it and it started to spread around a lot even among more average linkshell".
Because before those months when RDM tanking kinda went on a boom, I think only a few people knew about it or rather had the gear, skills and trust to efficiently make use of it?

Maybe I just got the wrong impression, but while I always heard about it, I never really saw a lot of video/people taking full advantage of it (not talking about Avesta or other RDM's soloing things).
Then there has been a certain "boom" of usage on boards like BG and others and more and more and more people started using it. I had some very competent ls mates who started using it, and I saw with my own eyes how powerful it was.
A few months after this boom things got patched.
Did I just get a wrong impression and RDM has awalys been widely used as an HNM tank by HNM ls? Could be.
But it sounds more logical to me that SE eventually decides to "patch it" the moment when its usage has started to spread too much, while they didn't do anything before because they either didn't know or they thought they could tolerate a moderate usage by only a handful of players in the world.

Pardon me if I got a wrong impression or made a very wrong descriptions of the facts that happened back then.
As far as I know RDM tanking never made a "boom" of any kind even after the AV video from SE with them using a RDM tank. The biggest reason I've found is while RDM was the best tank it had much less room for error, it used support that was fairly similar to PLD and NIN tank options, and the gear well it required -PDT/MDT, after that other gear made it easier, Fast Cast set, Auto-Refresh set, etc. just made it easier to do the job.

Honestly I have no clue why SE chose to wait until they did to nerf RDM tanking, I mean by the time it was nerfed it was a dead art.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

RDM, NIN, WAR... they've all had their uses as tanks here and there, but they all also had other options (back-line, puller, DD, etc.)

PLD, it's tank or nothing. Nobody has ever told a PLD "Oh, we already have a tank, but can you ______ for us?" Ever.

[Ryx]

Where to start, where to start... Let's go with this: Voidwatch.

Voidwatch's Tier IV NMs are NOT friendly for non-Plds to tank. Voidwrought: All attacks are AoE TP moves, the regular hits have enstun, enamnesia, or knockback depending on the motion, just like abyssea. Celaeno: Regular attacks are AoE TP moves, some of them even radial depending on the attack motion. Basically ALL of her TP moves are AoE / bypass shadows, and basically always casts -ga or -ja, very rarely casting a single-target spell. Hahava: Again, regular attacks are AoE TP moves. Alternates between Yaksha (physical stance) & Raksha (magical stance) for the nature of its TP moves and reduction of damage by 50%. Uses Raksha Vengence (moderate~heavy magic dmg AoE + weakness) & Yaksha Oblivion (Heavy Physical damage AoE, inflicts all stats-110) < 50% HP for its killer moves. Here's the thing: Vengence isn't *that* hard to stun, and Oblivion's blockable.

Now as a paladin, I am NO gauge of their accuracy, see: "Paladins don't evade, the mob whiffs", but when regular attacks cannot be countered, and take multiple shadows, I can't see Nin or Mnk tanking being all that viable. If their accuracy is low enough for a skilled evasion tank to handle them...I would be disappointed, given the rest of their difficulty, so I'm going to assume it's high enough to rule out evasion tanking.

I'll also reference Belphoebe, the T3 Pixie in Jugner, which uses her TP moves in a very specific order: Spring > Summer > Autumn > Winter Breezes > Cyclonic Turmoil > Norn Arrows. Norn Arrows is RAPE to a non-Ochain PLD. We're talking HEAVY physical damage to anyone within twenty yalms + Encumberance if you live. It's blockable, hence Ochain's defense against it, reducing the damage and prevents said encumberance from taking effect.

Now I know people are crying "But that's only one event, and there's not even much in the way of worthwhile gear that comes from it" blah, blah, blah. Voidwatch represents what Paladin NEEDS to be useful again: Challenging mobs that DDs are incapable of tanking. Did it occur to any of you that some of what SE has said about Pld is that they plan to improve our defensive capabilities? I'm not happy about their refusal to buff our offensive either, but the fact is that I see them enhancing our survivability to handle new challenges coming down the line. Challenges that your abyssea-spoiled "tanks" will get slaughtered. I'm honestly pleased to say that voidwatch is challenging to me, despite being one of the rare Almace/Ochain Paladins who DOESN'T let his Empys tank for him. I swear, it makes me shudder at how many Ochains I see fall into the hands of people who don't even swap gear, let alone know how to use proper MDT/PDT sets, because you NEED them in Voidwatch. Fighting the T4s, I can say that Ochain's auto-pilot is NOT enough.

The point I'm making is this: Right now, Voidwatch is the only *hard* event. There will be more Voidwatch, and there will be more *hard* content events down the line (I hope). I just don't think SE wants to release the rest of them right now, on the grounds that we're not 99 yet, and if they release it prior to 99, that means it'll be easier at 99, or scaled to be impossible prior to it. I'd rather see them release more content (beyond Voidwatch) AFTER the 99 cap, so they can gauge how powerful it needs to be in order to present a worthy challenge.

You cannot ask to compete with Mnk & Nin in abyssea, there's NO point to doing it. You cannot ask to compete with Empy DDs without an Empy yourself. Am I saying you NEED an empyrean to do your job? No. But if the DDs have them, why don't you? Almace is NOT hard to get, especially the 85 form. It makes me sick to see an Ochain without one, when Almace takes NONE of the time to obtain in comparison.


I remember sky party on statue golems at Ullikummi camp, and decorative weapon camps. Those were the days when people expect PLD to gear up defensively for one sole purpose. Tanking.

That's what we call "The Dark Ages" when nobody knew any better. I was already having my doubts about the turtle garbarge at this point when I saw my Drg/War taking hate off a Pld/War in full crapdaman, loaded up on Enm+ & an earth staff with just my regular hits on golems in Ulli camp. Paladin tanking in full AF1...the reason nobody realized just how bad it was at the time, was because the DDs sucked pretty hard back then as well, and provoke + flash + cures were enough to make up for your worthless gear choices in regards to holding hate.


We are aware that paladins are having a difficult time when damage dealers push the limits of their abilities in battle and we plan on making adjustments so that it’s easier for paladins to grab the focus of a target. However, since it would quickly become boring and lack any sense of challenge if party members were able to fight without fear of enmity as long as a paladin is present, it will be necessary to take into account the proper enmity balance between every role in party situations.

THANK YOU! To all of you people who keep BEGGING for an exclusive higher hate cap, or the ability to lock hate on yourselves, read this message as a colossal middle finger from the dev team. I support the notion of skill remaining an IMPORTANT factor of battle.


What about some "Enhances Provoke" or "Enhances emnity" gear to be used when using provoke or flash.

It's called "Enmity+" gear for provoke and "Fast Cast + Haste + Enmity+" gear for flash. I provoke in Enmity+54 in gear and cast flash in Haste+21%, Fast Cast+9%, and Enmity+38 in gear.

On that note: Provoke is NOT a deal-breaker. It helps a little, but it's nothing crucial. If you think you need provoke to hold hate, you're doing it wrong. If you think provoke would help you hold hate better...only when the mob goes running after the mages until you can catch up, WS on it, get it back over to where it's supposed to be. If you think you can tank most NMs /war without Ochain...get off Paladin. The majority of this game, people have tanked on Pld/NIN. Combination of Shadows + Shield blocks to help control overall damage mitigation.

Overall, it boils down to this: Paladin is only as good as the person playing it. SE isn't going to take balance out, and let non-empy Plds tank over empy-DDs, or non-Ochain Plds survive super tanking the world /war. Know your limits, and always strive to do better. "But Nin and Mnk take less damage than we do..." It sounds like SE intends to fix this by raising our defensive abilities, together with more challenging content that WILL make their tanking methods less effective.

That's my two gil on the matter, /rant off.

[Defiledsickness]

I see so basically it sounds like if you don't have a shield with ridiculous block rate and absorption rate (hi aegis/ochain) you're not that much better off than any other job...

Is your PLD a non-Aegis/Ochain PLD? If so do they /NIN or /WAR?

I'm trying to find out how accurate my guesstimated order of tank preference would be. I would take the questions to PMs as they aren't really on topic necessarily but I can't :(
one of our paladins does have ochain but its not required. simply the pld job is great for VW. one of our members leveled PLD in abyssea from 30-90, went and skilled up a bit, then tanked Hahava. Not saying any random pld can perfectly tank these nms, they require skill and teamwork. but pld seems to be the tank of choice, if not the only usable one. personally i've never seen any other job tank these monsters (we even use weakened pld's over the other DD's there). I took over a few times as Dnc and we've had a Nin tank the Briareus mob (Teir1) but this is more of a last ditch effort and usually involves temp items like Fanatics drink.

but as was just said, pld is only pld and if you aren't needed then you better have another job leveled.

[Defiledsickness]

oh ya pld is also awesome for the new BC's. Kindred Crest 50 i think, with the dragons similar to Ying and Yang from dynamis - xarcabard. we had a pld tank the one that spams horrible moves and a nin tank the easy one. nin with full AF3+2 and a proper eva set are pretty awesome blink tanks. but a simple aga will whipe all your shadows (and mobs that have normal atks that are aoe like shinryu, are not well tanked by nin.). this BC can prove to be difficult, but with our setup it was very easy (the pld healed himself i only gave him refresh and haste, which were whipped off constantly).

and i mentioned another pld-tank event; Shinryu. it probably hasnt taken anyone 1 try to get the twilight body, so i call this an event. (though mnk isnt a bad blood-tank in abyssea, as long as you do enough dmg to keep the whm's alive).

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Voidwatch represents what Paladin NEEDS to be useful again: Challenging mobs that DDs are incapable of tanking.

Even if, that gets us from 0/18 PLD to 1/18 PLD, and that's a big "maybe."

"Sorry, we already have a tank. Got any other jobs?"

Yes, I'm not the game's best PLD, and yes, the best gear I run around with is a joytoy and some mission loot, but... personally, PLD hasn't struck me as particularly useful in group settings since around level 70. Maybe you'll need 1 (one) in runs involving 18-64 players, and that one PLD will be the one with Excalibur in one hand and an Aegis in the other. Not "one per party" or even "one per alliance," one.

Really, the Abyssea problems PLD has I see as little more than an extension of the melee-burn merit point party, just writ large. Who needs a tank when a "first voke" is more than enough, especially when the voker can actually, y'know, cause damage?

Anyway, I'm tempted to say that PLD won't be "fixed" until one or the other of the following becomes true:
People are willing to accept a PLD as anything other than tank. DD, healer, I don't care, but some other role for which a group might want more than one of.
PLD is actually a useful subjob. If the defensive cabailities are so useful and important (and unique to PLD), then it should theoretically be useful as a sub as well.

[Unleashhell]

Okay I usually just sit back and read these forums and try to not have my head explode from the poor understanding of the job by the box burned people and or smn burned PLD's that seem to camp this forum. To those PLD's that actually xp'ed the job and by xp'ed the job I mean leveled it without the aforementioned horribleness as well as syninc it to 75 back in the day.

First off its not SE's fault that you don't have a cure kit build or enmity build for all of your actions towards mobs. Instead of being angry because everyone doing an empy weapon caps hate faster than you. Please get off your ass and use the time you spend here bitching to get an Alamce. Not a WoE ODD doesn't exist weapon an actual Almace where ODD Crits reach 500-600 dmg per swing.

Have all abbysites don't care how long you think it will take you just get them all. Get all atma's needed for getting Savior. By getting these you will have all important Atma's need for the next step. Use appropriate Atma's for CDC build. Either RR,GH, Apoc or RR, Savior, Apoc hell even Omni, RR, Apoc-- I think you get the idea.

Once that is done use actual dex + str + atk gear swaps--- for the love of all things sacred stop ws in the same gear you tank in and than bitch it sucks. In fact stop never changing gear period. If your not blinking enough to give your whm a seizure your not playing the job right. I do have sets for when I don't want my shit pushed in by a HNM and I also have my capped haste tp set both are appropriate use when needed.

Lastly, stop asking for more ways to get enmity. It won't help unless PLD is allowed to surpass the hardcap aka. like with Burtgang passing - PDT cap or Aegis with -MDT cap. I could have 40 job abilities to give me enmity but with the gear PLD has already there is no need for more JA's for enmity. We have plenty at our ready if people would just learn to build their kits right instead of taking the fast lazy way out of begging SE for shit we don't need.

Sorry if this angers anyone but really I don't care, I am just tired of seeing horrible PLD's making legitimate hard working PLD's look like shit. That is all continue to whine now.


Like Button "Check"

[Ophannus]

Seriously, I don't even have an almace but I can still push at least 2k Vorpal Blades in Abyssea with the right atmas, food and gear with spikes at 2.8-3k.

[Cursed]

So, instead of improving Paladins, we should instead do less damage? That solves all of the problems.

And don't try to condescend to me about the "old days". I spent years in a tree trying to get a dragon. I was in the first NA group that ever killed Tiamat. I was in the first group that ever fought Jailer of Love who found out that it invincible. I know all about the old days.

if you're talking about BG, isn't it technically a JPNA shell, since Ed was JP?

[Zagen]

Seriously, I don't even have an almace but I can still push at least 2k Vorpal Blades in Abyssea with the right atmas, food and gear with spikes at 2.8-3k.
On anything a PLD can do 2k Vorpals as an average a MNK is doing 2k A. Fury, WAR is doing 3k+ Raging Rushes, DRG is doing 2k+ Skewer (3k+ with Drakesbane), NIN is doing 2k Jins, THF/DNC are doing 2k+ Evisceration, COR are doing 2k Leaden Salute, PUP Stringing Pummel for 2-3k, etc.

Before you come preaching about how 2k is impressive inside abyssea take a reality check and play with some better players and you'll see that a PLD's 2k Vorpals are good for laughs at best when compared to other DD's WS options before Emp weapons are even mentioned (well for some jobs sorry DRG your ws sucks I hear). Not only do other jobs out do our Vorpals but they TP faster, deal more DoT, and survive just as well if not better than a PLD can. There is no place inside abyssea for PLD it just can't do enough damage to keep up with every other job that can deal damage thus making it a sub par tank.

If content continues like Voidwatch then PLD will have a niche for most players. That said if that happens every player who thinks 2k Vorpals will keep PLD tanking will be crying about the game being too hard. If content continues like Abyssea then PLD won't have a niche for any players.

[Atomic_Skull]

If FFXI developers say they don't want to raise the enmity cap, then they should definitely rework the current Damage>Enmity conversion. I'm sure there is such a value somewhere in the FFXI formulae. Slightly adjusting this value would be much quicker and efficient that fine-tuning every single ability/ws/spell in the game, or creating new job traits/abilities to generate more/less enmity.

They should go back to the old pre 2006 system that only had volatile enmity. Somewhere in mid 06 they ninja patched the enmity system to it's current form. I remember it well because at Kirin that week the kiters could no longer keep hate off the RNGs. We all knew something had changed but we couldn't figure out what. Years later when the enmity system was finally figured out out dawned on me what had happened that week.

[Naix]

I'll also reference Belphoebe, the T3 Pixie in Jugner, which uses her TP moves in a very specific order: Spring > Summer > Autumn > Winter Breezes > Cyclonic Turmoil > Norn Arrows. Norn Arrows is RAPE to a non-Ochain PLD. We're talking HEAVY physical damage to anyone within twenty yalms + Encumberance if you live. It's blockable, hence Ochain's defense against it, reducing the damage and prevents said encumberance from taking effect.


My ls ran through some voidwatch for the first time yesterday and we did this NM and something seems to conflict with what you just said. I own an Aegis, and with Shell 5 Norn Arrows was doing about 150~, so to me it looks like magical damage. If you can block with Ochain as well that rapes.


After we finished up with that NM we went ahead and did Hahava. I haven't done the other tier4s yet but I imagine they are somewhat similar. He is a prime example of the mob dictates what tanks you can use. In my mind there is no way any DD tank can do this effectively (atleast @ 90 cap.) Of course, we only attempted with 9 people with 2 of them boxing, I'm sure there are many ways to do this fight if you double your alliance size.

It's really simple when you know you'll need a PLD tank, and that's when a DD tank can't do enough damage to overcome the cures raining down on them. This was the case early on in endgame, where gear options weren't as much, people that were extremely well geared were low, and the playerbase knowledge was low. For example, a SAM couldn't reliably tank Fafnir due to all of the above mentioned, so something like a PLD (or NIN/DRK or RDM/NIN) was used, where they could generate enmity without needing to deal damage ontop of reducing damage better.

So, as long as mobs like that exist, then the need for PLD will be there. In abyssea where HP/curing is infinite, damage spikes are retarded, this obviously isn't the case. PLD still need a bone thrown their way to make sure it stays this way though.

[Atomic_Skull]

Norn Arrows is RAPE to a non-Ochain PLD.

I'm pretty sure than Norn Arrows is elemental because from what I've observed in VW Aegis PLDs take between 100-200 damage from it.

[Ryx]

My ls ran through some voidwatch for the first time yesterday and we did this NM and something seems to conflict with what you just said. I own an Aegis, and with Shell 5 Norn Arrows was doing about 150~, so to me it looks like magical damage. If you can block with Ochain as well that rapes.

I'd imagine that's something more of a fresh cureskin effect. It's easy to test if it's magic damage: You KNOW when she's going to use it, so just save rampart for it. If it takes off the magic defense stoneskin, it's magic. Sentinel/Invincible could also be used to check the physical side of it. I know fanatic's & fool's drinks aren't always the best gauge (Fool's drink won't block Norn), I just know that in blocking the encumberance effect, that implies you're blocking with your shield (and the fact that it doesn't rape me when it annihilates the DDs). Since I'm not used to shield blocks working against magic-based TP moves, that would lean me towards it being a physical attack.

Don't underestimate the cureskin effect from solace, it can save your life...or it can let you take 10 damage from Oblivion on Hahava while under the stats down effect from a previous use. I'm not going to say I'm an expert on Belphoebe, I've only fought her a few times, I'm just saying this sounds like a fairly reasonable scenario in my mind.

Also be warned: If you stun Norn Arrows, she'll use it again as her next TP move. I'm not sure how many times she'll keep trying, but given her special nature, I wouldn't doubt she tries until she gets it off.

I've taken down Hahava with 7, Celaeno with 6, Voidwrought with 8. Doesn't mean it's the best idea, just that it can be done. Low #s = low options for procing !!, and without allignment buffs, your odds of getting drops go from bad to worse.

[Andrien]

OK.

Staying on course:
I was thinking about what Camate said. I agree battles will become boring if PLD can grab enmity easy. What I don't agree on is that it shouldn't take BRD songs and THF abilities to make PLD somewhat more effective. In other words it doesn't seem efficient enough when players have to hold back just to make one job effective.

[Hayward]

I emphatically reject the talking point that Paladins should need an Almace and Ochain to effectively do the job it was designed to do. That tells me something is gravely wrong and requires adjustments to the job itself. Empyrean weapons should be an extra, not an essential that is not obtainable by all.

If the devs cannot bring themselves to raise the enmity cap specifically for Paladins nor raise our attack potential, there needs to be some changes made to 1) swords'/great swords' damage calculations and 2) the the overall blocking rate and damage mitigation calculations for all shields. Otherwise, the only Paladins who are allowed to enjoy their jobs will be those who are associated with the right cliques and know the right behinds to kiss.

[Defiledsickness]

pld's dont need any empy or relics to do well in voidwatch. a pld based on level 75 standards with his AF3+1 or +2 is good. the empy/relic shields just make it WAY easier not to die. i mean you could solo genbu right now, but if you have awesome gear you have less of a chance at dieing. get it?

right now in voidwatch with a empy/relic shield user, if we dont keep the pld at full health he could still be killed. 1-shotted or 2-shotted, these mobs dont play nice.

and ya, vorpal blade sucks. club ws's (true strike) do way more dmg in abyssea and my club is only 280 vs 361 sword +16skill from merits and suppanomimi (+5). and clubs have WAY lower base damage. also for 3k vorpals you have to sacrifice tanking atmas and switch to DD gear.

[Neisan_Quetz]

1.0 50% Str Mod Single hit > 4.0 4 30% Str Mod 4 hits with a ~83 attack difference? Yea I think something's wrong with that but then you said switch to DD gear and drop tanking atmas I knew what you were doing wrong.

[SpankWustler]

switch to DD gear.

If you aren't doing this for each weapon skill already, you really should start doing it as soon as possible.

People who aren't very good at playing support jobs will feel sad and make unpleasant posts on this very forum about how they don't know that <stpt> or <stal> exist, but everyone else will be filled with joy.

Not exactly on topic, I guess, but that felt like something half the people in this topic could do to read one more time.

I don't envy the guy who has to take the helm of improving and balancing Paladin. The whole point of the job is to tank really hard monsters, which it does really well, so just continuing to add really hard monsters as the level cap increases to 99 would go a long way.

It would be nice if it had a place in a party fighting anything that isn't two stories high, made out of fire-hardened sadness, and armed with a two-days dead cat on a stick; so I hope that's accommodated for as well. If not, at least it's a job solid in it's niche, I guess.

[Linh]

...What I don't agree on is that it shouldn't take BRD songs and THF abilities to make PLD somewhat more effective. In other words it doesn't seem efficient enough when players have to hold back just to make one job effective.

QFT

Quoted for Truth

Play a game to have fun. Not hold back and watch the other guys have fun

[Aeonk]

I emphatically reject the talking point that Paladins should need an Almace and Ochain to effectively do the job it was designed to do. That tells me something is gravely wrong and requires adjustments to the job itself. Empyrean weapons should be an extra, not an essential that is not obtainable by all.

If the devs cannot bring themselves to raise the enmity cap specifically for Paladins nor raise our attack potential, there needs to be some changes made to 1) swords'/great swords' damage calculations and 2) the the overall blocking rate and damage mitigation calculations for all shields. Otherwise, the only Paladins who are allowed to enjoy their jobs will be those who are associated with the right cliques and know the right behinds to kiss.
You don't have to like that it's nearly a requirement to own an Almace or Ochain... But when nearly every DD is striving for an empy or at least WoE weapon, there's no excuse for you not to as well.

And really... Almace is not hard. It didn't require kissing ass to get it, just having 2 or 3 friends really. You put the same amount of work into getting Atonement (assuming you did) as Almace requires.

[Rorrick]

You don't have to like that it's nearly a requirement to own an Almace or Ochain... But when nearly every DD is striving for an empy or at least WoE weapon, there's no excuse for you not to as well.

And really... Almace is not hard. It didn't require kissing ass to get it, just having 2 or 3 friends really. You put the same amount of work into getting Atonement (assuming you did) as Almace requires.

The difference here being that other jobs are clearly useful without Empyrean weapons, whereas Paladin requires them just to be serviceable. This is not a legitimate solution.

[Karbuncle]

QFT

Quoted for Truth

Play a game to have fun. Not hold back and watch the other guys have fun

Only problem is SE is trying to force us to remember the roots of the game, party style combat.

They want us to use a THF to control Enmity more, they want us to bring a BRD and SMN to help PLDs survive super-damaging attacks.

They want us to utilize every tool we can to make a fight go smoothly, which is why the Reward system in Voidwatch doesn't penalize large groups (in fact in a way in penalizes small ones). They want large alliance so we can bring all these excess jobs to make a party come together.

They seem to be trying not to make 1 job self reliant, they want a THF to be invited for loot and to make a Tanks job easier by helping DDs control their enmity. or a SMN For E.Armor, etc, Only problem is they don't seem to realize what tools we have now are simply not enough unless everyone in the fight holds back 99% of the time.

I just hope they realize/correct this as well.

[Greatguardian]

All I've been able to glean from this thread is that Camate and the Devs know way more about Paladin than I think anyone, myself included, gave them credit for.

Thank you for not falling prey to some of the complete and utter crap that has been posted and suggested over the past year.

Thank you for recognizing and looking into Paladin's CE accumulation rather than giving in to the "Give us Provoke" tripe.

Thank you for acknowledging that Paladin is the single strongest offensive Sword wielder in the game from a pure melee perspective, and that neither Vorpal Blade nor Chant du Cygne are anything to wag a finger at.

Thank you for balancing future adjustments around Ochain rather than nerfing the Empyrean shield in order to buff shields in general.

Thank you for being you and being awesome.

[Aeonk]

The difference here being that other jobs are clearly useful without Empyrean weapons, whereas Paladin requires them just to be serviceable. This is not a legitimate solution.
Say they give PLD an ability to increase dmg without needing CDC. A PLD specific berserk or some such thing. What happens when you put a powerful buff like that in the hands of someone who already has Almace or Excalibur paired with Ochain or Aegis? You just sidelined every DD in the game. PLD would rule both ends of the offensive and defensive spectrum.

I'd say the ends justify the means. If Almace/Ochain make the job even semi-optimal in game again... then it's something to strive for is it not? Giving PLD's a non-empyrean solution to dealing better dmg could very easily unbalance the game as is. The reason I was pushing for a dmg buff like Fencer for so long is because it definately helps, but it's not a boost in a "2 hander update" sense (that and in my opinion a job trait that was practically designed for PLD, should go to PLD.)

[Zagen]

Say they give PLD an ability to increase dmg without needing CDC. A PLD specific berserk or some such thing. What happens when you put a powerful buff like that in the hands of someone who already has Almace or Excalibur paired with Ochain or Aegis? You just sidelined every DD in the game. PLD would rule both ends of the offensive and defensive spectrum.
In almost all of the current content Almace and Ochain/Aegis make a PLD comparable to a non Emp/Relic DD in the tank slot... If they gave a buff to PLD's offense it would likely make an Almace and Ochain/Aegis PLD comparable to an Emp/Relic DD for the tank slot, how is that broken and not how is should be?

Edit: I can see the point SE is making about how a buff to offense would make PLD a superior soloer but honestly who cares? RDM has been soloing content that took a group by design for years it would be no different.

[Lutschfactor]

wow a lot of words that mean nothing. so they really think pld is nothing. so i dont expect anything ever to come good from pld at all. ever. just keep on giving to sams and nin eventually we wont need healers

[Rorrick]

Say they give PLD an ability to increase dmg without needing CDC. A PLD specific berserk or some such thing. What happens when you put a powerful buff like that in the hands of someone who already has Almace or Excalibur paired with Ochain or Aegis? You just sidelined every DD in the game. PLD would rule both ends of the offensive and defensive spectrum.

I'd say the ends justify the means. If Almace/Ochain make the job even semi-optimal in game again... then it's something to strive for is it not? Giving PLD's a non-empyrean solution to dealing better dmg could very easily unbalance the game as is. The reason I was pushing for a dmg buff like Fencer for so long is because it definately helps, but it's not a boost in a "2 hander update" sense (that and in my opinion a job trait that was practically designed for PLD, should go to PLD.)

They should be items that increase utility, not create it.

Having said that, I'm not even arguing for an attack buff (although the fears of Paladin's supposed solo-prowess seem somewhat laughable given what Red Mage has been doing for years and years). I'm arguing for any buff. Giving us better enmity tools is parallel to the real problem; there's no reason for Paladin to be around to use them.

[PandyTwi]

lol, we had a tarudin in our setup there helping out with orthrus the other day, damn dog. anyway, it was pretty funny cause when acheron flame got spammed like crazy after we finished procs, it was just crazy. While all the DD's were smoldering corpses on the ground, Babyfish, the tarudin in question, was just fighting it by himself laughing about the little scratch he just took. Needless to say, I was laughing pretty hard myself.

[Zagen]

lol, we had a tarudin in our setup there helping out with orthrus the other day, damn dog. anyway, it was pretty funny cause when acheron flame got spammed like crazy after we finished procs, it was just crazy. While all the DD's were smoldering corpses on the ground, Babyfish, the tarudin in question, was just fighting it by himself laughing about the little scratch he just took. Needless to say, I was laughing pretty hard myself.

Odd because a WHM + MNK can kill that dog without any issues assuming your WHM doesn't suck at keeping up with buffs/cures.

[Greatguardian]

No one had an MDT set on them? I've never even seen Acheron Flames break 1k =/

[PandyTwi]

Odd because a WHM + MNK can kill that dog without any issues assuming your WHM doesn't suck at keeping up with buffs/cures.
yeah, a whm mnk can when you don't have like 30 DD's on it making it spam tp moves. =P

[Greatguardian]

Should be fighting 10 different NMs with 3 people each then, 30 people on one is dumb every time and asking for trouble. And honestly, unless that Paladin had an Aegis, they would not have had any real advantage over the other melees assuming they were halfway competent and had an MDT set and Barfira/Shell anyways.

Though, considering there were so many, it's really no surprise that they didn't have any sort of MDT set. Hardly a case to be made for Paladin, really. All you're saying is that bad players are bad.

[Zagen]

yeah, a whm mnk can when you don't have like 30 DD's on it making it spam tp moves. =P

As greatguardian said, sounds like bad players and leaders not how awesome PLD is over other jobs.

[PandyTwi]

oh come on guys, I was just sharing a story for a cheap laugh, so laugh already, for god's sake xP

[Zagen]

oh come on guys, I was just sharing a story for a cheap laugh, so laugh already, for god's sake xP

It was a sad story the weakest tanking job there was the best geared... I don't see how that's funny especially since you were a part of the event in some way.

[Andrien]

thread derailed again?

C'mon guys give feed back and suggestions. lol


I for one want Cure V for PLD, with some merit tweaks, and a little larger MP pool. Just a little bit

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Uncap Spirits Within damage. If Ark Angel EV can do it, why can't we?

That would make a dent in Abyssea.

[Judge]

an ability similar to 3rd Eye.

[JA name]: Granting the ability to completely deflect an attack. (would be as helpful as shadows but not overpowering. since pld is supposed to be a master of defense i would think he could dodge an attack ever now and again)

and the dual modes like NIN or SAM has.

Defense mode: increase spellcasting speed and chance to prevent [previous JA name] from wearing off.

Offensive mode: increased double attack rate and crit hit rate.

[Cursed]

SE are never going to push jobs away from their traditional identities.
Quit asking for PLD to get a job ability like Berserker. Its not going to happen.
Quit asserting that PLDs are supposed to be great/uber/awesome sauce DD's. They're not. Go back to WoW. This is the Final Fantasy realm.
Quit asking for stupid new defensive traits to be introduced just for PLD. They already have Parry & shield block, PDT, MDT, and a lot of other ways of mitigating both physical and magic dmg. Increasing effectiveness of already existing defensive traits is ok, but introducing new defensive traits is just pointless.

Best Idea I have heard here is to grant PLD a job trait where his/her presence in party causes everyone else's enmity to decay.
They would have to tweek it so that the more effort a PLD put forth the faster the enmity decay of his/her party/alliance would be.

[Andrien]

....job trait where his/her presence in party causes everyone else's enmity to decay.
They would have to tweek it so that the more effort a PLD put forth the faster the enmity decay of his/her party/alliance would be.

I like this a lot.

[Greatguardian]

I don't. There are other jobs in the game that can co-tank with Paladin, and other jobs in the game that frankly should be having hate over a Paladin in some situations. It is absolutely not a good idea to forcefully limit the pool of working tanks to a single job. I love co-tanking with Dark Knights, Samurais, Monks, Ninjas, and Warriors. There is no need to nerf one of the only useful non-Abyssea aspects of these other jobs (Drk, Nin specifically) just because people don't know how to tank without being handed perma-max Enmity and -100DT.

Edit: To be clear: Job isn't broken. Players just suck at it.

[Judge]

it was just another useless suggestion tossed on the forums lol relax

just saying that the defensive abilities pld currently has are very minor in regards to options available to DD's.
this has been pointed out in a dozen different posts.
anything pdt or mdt is mute. many jobs can equip the same junk and achieve the same effect.
and besides.... a job should be able to perform its duty w/o gear. gear should only be enhancing the abilities further.

strip all jobs down to nekkid and a weapon. nin. dnc. thf. mnk. can all still tank. even mages can still nuke.
nekkid pld is only gonna survive as long as sentinel is active and they can get those 2-3 cure4's off.

and a 5%~ DA and crit rate is hardly game-breaking nor berserker level. neither is being able to dodge 1 swing and a ws every so often.

again just ideas SE wont use anyway so its all irrelevant.

[Greatguardian]

I was talking about the Enmity Sap Aura idea that the couple posts above me were lauding.

[SpankWustler]

Best Idea I have heard here is to grant PLD a job trait where his/her presence in party causes everyone else's enmity to decay.

While the general concept of a Paladin reducing another player's enmity makes enough sense, this would be an awful way to implement it. Such an addition would actually make Paladin worse in some situations, and for the rest, it would muck up any hopes a player on another job might have of co-tanking with a Paladin.

I wouldn't complain like this, but every time it comes up, it's mentioned as an always-on Job Trait intended to affect a whole alliance and people inexplicably love the idea.

This just isn't a good idea, and the fact that it recurs more often than my nightmare about having ferrets for hands really puzzles me. Not as puzzling as "How do I shave when this stupid ferret won't lay paws on the razor instead of biting my elbow?", but still...

A better way to reduce another player's enmity would be through Cover becoming able to target any alliance member, which the development team mentioned they're already mulling over. The addition should be single target, whatever it is, if there is such an addition.

[Andrien]

A better way to reduce another player's enmity would be through Cover becoming able to target any alliance member, which the development team mentioned they're already mulling over. The addition should be single target, whatever it is, if there is such an addition.

That actually sounds pretty good. If this was implemented I see one fault, I find it often times players ignores Cover on them and don't bother to stay in position. If the after effect of Cover still works by lowering their enmity, then I see Cover as just another friendly target ability to use on a random party member.



-----------------------------
Of topic:
I know there is some individuals who might disagree. If you have to, at least leave a positive suggestion in return instead of arrogance.

[Greatguardian]

People refusing to stay in position for Cover is a player issue. No amount of buffs will fix stupidity.

Edit: Surcoat's cover boost is still relevant outside Abyssea, and frankly should be used whenever the timer is up whether it's needed or not.

[Andrien]

People refusing to stay in position for Cover is a player issue. No amount of buffs will fix stupidity.


The idea about Surcoat's Cover. I prefer not to waste it. When there is a time when its actually needed then I'll use it, it just seems worthless to cover someone when they don't even need it. The enmity boost is not noticeable imo.

[hiko]

thread derailed again?

C'mon guys give feed back and suggestions. lol


I for one want Cure V for PLD, with some merit tweaks, and a little larger MP pool. Just a little bit
dont want cure V, want a higher tier cure but with same (bigger) enmity/HP healed than cure IV

[Hayward]

I agree with Cursed. A JT that causes party enmity to decay quickly enough to make it difficult to cap would serve exceptionally well for the job, not just those who know the right people.

[Karbuncle]

I disagree with a Job trait that decays enmity of those around you, for pretty much all the reasons GG Listed.

It would really hurt dual tank situations (Which are there) to the point of nerf-level, especially if it was 2 PLD tanks, then both tanks would have their Enmity decaying. (unless it was specifically mentioned PLD's would not be effected, and im sorry if it was)

It would be more acceptable as a Job Ability, for instance give Rampart that effect? When Rampart is active party members hate decays at 2x the rate or just decays at all (CE?)?

However I can't say its a necessity, however it could not hurt. But it as a permanent job trait would be unacceptable to me :|, and it would hurt as much as it'd help to a lot of players.

[Caketime]

Wouldn't a JA that can be switched off and on solve the issue of dual tanking instead of a Trait?

E: Derp, should have read last post.

[Greatguardian]

The idea about Surcoat's Cover. I prefer not to waste it. When there is a time when its actually needed then I'll use it, it just seems worthless to cover someone when they don't even need it. The enmity boost is not noticeable imo.

Generally I find that "saving" buffs for the opportune moment is the easiest way for people to justify wasting it by not using it at all. Unless they sit at max MP, they are never going to benefit more by activating the ability later. The only exception would be when the Paladin just doesn't understand how to maintain functional MP levels, in which case they really should be spamming Cover for the MP refill as much as possible.

Think of it like the difference between only flashing when someone else gets hate, and spamming Flash on the timer. Same basic concept.

[Cursed]

Well its either a slight increase in enmity decay when a PLD is in party or all you other "tanks" are in for a RDM reality check lol.

Its easy to say "PLD is fine. y'all just suck". Probably coming from someone who takes 30 minutes to kill things in 2011 while everyone else is taking 1/3rd the time and has only ever used PLD to tank. But reality is even SE has admitted that the job is in serious need of some tweeks, beyond the changes they just implimented last month.

If PLD was "fine", the default tank, which it is suppossed to be, wouldn't be on the sidelines while classes that are suppossed to be purely attack based, tank. Voidwatch isn't enough content to encourage people to play the job. Aegis & Ochain & Almace shouldn't be the requirements for the job to have any involvment or necessity in the game.
Even with an Ochain and Aegis, a PLD will take considerably more dmg in situations such as Abyssea than classes such as MNK and SAM, and see much less of the mob's attention.

EDIT: As a PLD if you're not saving your buffs for the right situation, then you really do need to go back to 101 class. If you've never found a reason to save cover for that trigger happy blm or war in your shell then you just have no business saying anything about PLD lol. Sometimes you spam flash and sometimes you save it for just before a badly damaging tp move. If you've played PLD enough you get to know the cycle and routines of your enemy and can almost predict tp moves. Saving Flash for Tiamat after a touch down for example when you don't have any blms to stun and Ni for whatever reason isnt up. That's just one situation. There are hundreds more.

My post does sound a little insulting now that I read it. Not intended, had a long day at work and fought with the dumb ass IT people who work for me. :)
I hope you're not an IT person GG. that would just be too unforgivable.

[Greatguardian]

ITT: Assessments of Paladin's performance based in Abyssea.

Paladin is fine. Outside Abyssea. I don't care if you don't do Voidwatch, that doesn't mean Paladin isn't awesome at it. Limiting the scope of the discussion to the mid-game bridge event that's already over and caters specifically to casual players is fallacious at best, malicious at worst. People with half a modicum of foresight neither need nor want adjustments based on Abyssean balance.

As for need to save Cover for people who "take hate", that's not a big deal if my TE is capped and they floor their CE by taking a hit or two. Which, you know, they can do because they're not morons and have PDT gear to swap into. A black mage taking hate period when they have Enmity Douse is just silly. Protip, taking damage decreases CE.

Edit: I find myself significantly less concerned about actually dying the majority of the time, so Flashing TP moves has never been a big deal. I would rather keep my TE sitting at the cap, or wherever is most beneficial for it to be depending on who/what my co-tank is.

You're talking about safety, I'm talking about efficiency. I know my DDs aren't idiots, and will be capping hate at some point by doing their jobs properly, so I trust that they can take a couple punches in their PDT sets on purpose in order to lower their CE. I know myself and my support staff aren't idiots, so I hardly have to worry about saving Sentinel for a damaging TP move in order to keep myself alive. Cover in particular is simply an MP recovery tool as far as I'm concerned, and there's no point sitting on it when you're essentially throwing away free MP for every second that the timer is up and it's not being used.

And no I'm not IT, just CS.

[Cursed]

ITT: Assessments of Paladin's performance based in Abyssea.

Paladin is fine. Outside Abyssea. I don't care if you don't do Voidwatch, that doesn't mean Paladin isn't awesome at it. Limiting the scope of the discussion to the mid-game bridge event that's already over and caters specifically to casual players is fallacious at best, malicious at worst. People with half a modicum of foresight neither need nor want adjustments based on Abyssean balance.

Its not just based on Abyssea, although PLD missing out on the mainstream game action for over a year is enough greivance for the job to scream "WTF SE".
Even before Abyssea, PLD was on the decline. They had to nerf RDM, rather drastically to allow PLD some sort of merit end game. (BRDs were nerfed ffs... BRDS!)




As for need to save Cover for people who "take hate", that's not a big deal if my TE is capped and they floor their CE by taking a hit or two. Which, you know, they can do because they're not morons and have PDT gear to swap into. A black mage taking hate period when they have Enmity Douse is just silly. Protip, taking damage decreases CE. .
There can be, as there once were, a lot more consequences for someone other than the tank stealing hate. Spike Flail, crippling AOE moves such as Fulmination, Meteor spam, causing the mob to move in range of the rest of the alliance and cast something like GoH. It's not always a simple round of attacks. Abyssea and post-75 end game thus far has seen everyone forget about specifics like distance. I've been playing with the same people for years as well, and you would be surprised just how often I have to tell them to keep 20 distance from me when im tanking. Becayse Abyssea has put the Noob back in them. While more often than not, someone else getting hate off you isn't that damaging (because mobs are just weak today), it sometimes causes a lot more dmg than just that single target (idiot) hitting the floor.

[Greatguardian]

The trend with Paladin is fairly apparent. The easier the content is, the less useful Paladin is. The harder the content is, the more useful Paladin is. It's not so much that Paladin was getting weaker before Abyssea, it was simply that the content that we've all been doing for years and years was getting easier to the players.

Paladin still excels to the point of necessity whenever the content is difficult, and it will always suffer whenever the content is easy. I don't think this will ever change.

[Cursed]

The trend with Paladin is fairly apparent. The easier the content is, the less useful Paladin is. The harder the content is, the more useful Paladin is. It's not so much that Paladin was getting weaker before Abyssea, it was simply that the content that we've all been doing for years and years was getting easier to the players.

Paladin still excels to the point of necessity whenever the content is difficult, and it will always suffer whenever the content is easy. I don't think this will ever change.

yup, Agreed.

[Economizer]

Okay, I'm not saying Paladin needs or does not need a job trait or ability that would decay enmity of people around it. That said:


It would really hurt dual tank situations (Which are there) to the point of nerf-level, especially if it was 2 PLD tanks, then both tanks would have their Enmity decaying. (unless it was specifically mentioned PLD's would not be effected, and im sorry if it was)

Specifically excluding PLD is a bad mechanic, as it makes PLD a better tank choice by nerfing other tank jobs that aren't PLD.

A job trait or ability that decays enmity of party members near the Paladin would be easy to implement in a way that wouldn't hurt tanks. Simply make it dependent on positioning like the way Thief has an improved crit rate when striking an enemy behind it or the way certain mobs perform certain weapon skills dependent of your positioning as in front of or in back of the tank.

This could be done easily by having it only affect jobs that are behind the Paladin or some other positional setup. Having a behind the Paladin Job Ability with limited duration would also help with SATA setups, and probably be the best way to implement the suggested enmity decay around a Paladin.

[Cursed]

Okay, I'm not saying Paladin needs or does not need a job trait or ability that would decay enmity of people around it. That said:



Specifically excluding PLD is a bad mechanic, as it makes PLD a better tank choice by nerfing other tank jobs that aren't PLD.

A job trait or ability that decays enmity of party members near the Paladin would be easy to implement in a way that wouldn't hurt tanks. Simply make it dependent on positioning like the way Thief has an improved crit rate when striking an enemy behind it or the way certain mobs perform certain weapon skills dependent of your positioning as in front of or in back of the tank.

This could be done easily by having it only affect jobs that are behind the Paladin or some other positional setup. Having a behind the Paladin Job Ability with limited duration would also help with SATA setups, and probably be the best way to implement the suggested enmity decay around a Paladin.

thumbs up. Good contribution.
Nice to read good some good posts after all the "waa waa give us berserker stance!" and the "y'all just suck ass" posts.

[NanoFox]

How about a job trait that works in the same fashion as Fencer but focus's on lowering delay time for main handed weapons?
or how about buffing the duration of rampart & sentinel to a 60 secs?.:p
just a thought..

[Rorrick]

ITT: Assessments of Paladin's performance based in Abyssea.

Paladin is fine. Outside Abyssea. I don't care if you don't do Voidwatch, that doesn't mean Paladin isn't awesome at it. Limiting the scope of the discussion to the mid-game bridge event that's already over and caters specifically to casual players is fallacious at best, malicious at worst. People with half a modicum of foresight neither need nor want adjustments based on Abyssean balance.

ITT I wasn't tanking Tyger on MNK at 75.

Paladin has been useless for years. Abyssea just compounds the issue.

Edit: And lowering mainhand delay is a bad idea, as it nerfs TP gain and Paladin's white damage is pathetic with or without Almace aftermath.

[Greatguardian]

ITT I wasn't tanking Tyger on MNK at 75.

Paladin has been useless for years. Abyssea just compounds the issue.

Edit: And lowering mainhand delay is a bad idea, as it nerfs TP gain and Paladin's white damage is pathetic with or without Almace aftermath.

Direct yourself to the last page where I specifically addressed this point. Paladin's usefulness is directly correlated to the difficulty of content. When content became easier because everyone had killed Khimaira a billion times, even Corsair could tank it =/

[Orlind]

I have to agree that a PLD's usefulness can be connected to how difficult the current content is viewed to be. Just the other day I walked out as PLD/RDM to play around with Turul and found him to be rather easy to solo and would've done so if I wasn't already waiting for another NM. I don't even have Almace, Aegis or Ochain and this was the same Turul that scared people when Abyssea first came out.

On another subject, do you guys think it would be game-breaking to give PLDs native Fencer? From what was mentioned, it seems S-E sees it as too powerful for a PLD? Would it be that bad on a PLD with Almace and make us more powerful than other DDs?

[Greatguardian]

I think Paladin is the only job in the game aside from BST that might actually use Fencer, but it already has a fairly solid amount going for it in the damage department. It's not so much a matter of out-damaging real DDs as it is being acceptably good at DD while simultaneously being able to tank everything.

Now, don't get me wrong, most DDs are in the exact same position right now from the other side. However, their ability to tank sharply descends when you venture into newer content. WAR and MNK can't stand up to T4 Voidwalker NMs for crap.

[Rorrick]

It becomes easier by virtue of familiarity, which creates an environment in which Paladin will eventually have no place in. At some point, content will stop flowing, and everyone will be familiar with endgame. There will be no reason to use Paladin at all, and I think it's just unacceptable that nothing is being done to give Paladin a legitimate role to play; especially when the reasons for inaction fly in the face of prior statements and actions.

[Orlind]

I actually don't mind that other jobs are able to tank and yes, I saw firsthand what a T4 VWNM could do to anyone that wasn't me or the other PLD. I was happy and sad at the same time and I'm not sure why...

I was just thinking Fencer might add a bit of oomph that might appease the casual masses without being something too powerful. And it might allow PLDs to stay slightly more relevant when Voidwatch gets easy as well.

Also, for those PLDs that have top-shelf gear I still don't see it being too powerful. Maybe just tier 1 or 2 at most by 99 if not the same as WARs. Again, would be nice when things change and everything seems easy again.

Its not something I'm demanding in any case. More like I'm wanting to better understand the reasoning behind S-E's vision for PLD because the language they use seems too much like the same old song and dance. You know, the one that has us hanging on the line between relevancy and mediocrity...

[Yukichibi]

A role to play, yes, but making it a requirement, that would be unacceptable.

Since i start playing several years back, i still see the same debate: "the best setup is ..."
That's not because it's the best, that another setup will not being able to do it.

That's why it's difficult to design things, where for example, if you have a PLD it's easier, things go steady, but if you don't have one, you can still do it, but it will be harder. (You can have a SCH instead of a WHM in abyssea for main heal for example, harder but not impossible).

And yes, when you know well how combat works, which tactic to use against particular NM, the skill enhance the survivability of the party, and then the PLD survivability is excessive.

So when survivability is not as much required, PLD still needs to have something to do, the easiest thing would be to boost his damage, but then loosing some survivability.
A stance maybe.

[Rorrick]

A role to play, yes, but making it a requirement, that would be unacceptable.

Not that I disagree, but why is it unacceptable? They've essentially done the same thing to White Mage. It's the healer. Scholar and Red Mage are impotent in comparison. You can get by with either of them, but it makes things much more difficult, both inside and outside Abyssea. Yet, both Red Mage and Scholar can still contribute to the party in other ways, through enhancements, enfeeblements, and elemental magic.

In fact, I would argue that White Mage's dominance over healing is exactly the type of situation Paladin should be in, if SE refuses to expand on its duality. It should be the tank, and without one your life becomes much more difficult, but still manageable.

[Zagen]

ITT I wasn't tanking Tyger on MNK at 75.
Not sure what level they are but judging by the gear options on them and the post date of Feb 2010 looks like these MNKs were tanking Tyger at 75 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8QhodvBp68)

As has been said and SE refuses to acknowledge it, PLD isn't needed and in the events it is needed for the moment it doesn't last because groups find ways to use more efficient tanks.

SE In other words unless you do something about PLD it will be a useless job, new hard content just delays this reality and if you honestly believe SCH spell, BRD song, THF Trick Attack will fix PLD's issue you have some naive (nicest word I could think of) game designers.

[Rorrick]

Not sure what level they are but judging by the gear options on them and the post date of Feb 2010 looks like these MNKs were tanking Tyger at 75 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8QhodvBp68)

The last time I did it we only had two (me on MNK and a SAM co-tank) tanks, and a total of nine people.

[Zagen]

The last time I did it we only had two (me on MNK and a SAM co-tank) tanks, and a total of nine people.
Oh I don't doubt it I posted the video for those who believe PLD is perfectly fine, fixable by Enmity spells, Trick Attack, Provoke etc.

[Linh]

The trend with Paladin is fairly apparent. The easier the content is, the less useful Paladin is. The harder the content is, the more useful Paladin is. It's not so much that Paladin was getting weaker before Abyssea, it was simply that the content that we've all been doing for years and years was getting easier to the players.

Paladin still excels to the point of necessity whenever the content is difficult, and it will always suffer whenever the content is easy. I don't think this will ever change.

No matter the difficulty of the content, every job should be efficient and equal at doing it when in their given role.

[Greatguardian]

No matter the difficulty of the content, every job should be efficient and equal at doing it when in their given role.

That is not how FFXI works. How it was designed to work. How it will be designed to work. How it has ever worked.

No one job will ever be useful for their role in every context in the game, period.

The Job system was designed to foster Context-sensitive content. If Paladin isn't a good job to bring to Charybdis, change to Ninja. If Red Mage is a shoddy healer in Abyssea, change to White Mage. If Monk isn't a good job to solo BCNM20s on, change to Beastmaster/Summoner.

The Devs never intended for people to stick to one job like glue and entreat the game to change to fit within that job's mold. The entire idea was to give the players the ability to change to fit within the game's mold. Versatility is the name of the game. Not within one job, but among them all.

The Devs' job is to ensure that there is sufficient content where Paladin is a viable choice in the game, not to ensure that Paladin is a viable choice in all of the game's content.

[Linh]

The Devs' job is to ensure that there is sufficient content where Paladin is a viable choice in the game, not to ensure that Paladin is a viable choice in all of the game's content.

Well, that's how it is now, which is why I'm suggesting they change it.

So that a job will have more of an equal chance to play than they do now.

[Greatguardian]

Well, that's how it is now, which is why I'm suggesting they change it.

So that a job will have more of an equal chance to play than they do now.

What you are asking for is a fundamental shift in what makes Final Fantasy XI, Final Fantasy XI. This is the premise of the job system. This is what the game has been built and designed around for over a decade. It's not just how it is now, it's how it's been for 10 years.

Frankly, if I wanted my one class to be good at everything, I'd go play a different game. Being able to change classes and roles at will to fit the situation is the prime appeal of FFXI's gameplay in the MMO market.

[Linh]

Frankly, if I wanted my one class to be good at everything, I'd go play a different game. Being able to change classes and roles at will to fit the situation is the prime appeal of FFXI's gameplay in the MMO market.

A Warrior won't be good at healing. A White Mage won't be good at tanking. One class won't be good at everything, only the roles they were designed for. If I'm bored of fighting as Samurai, I want to be able to switch to Monk without having a profound impact on difficulty.

Pre/Non-Abyssea: "I'm sorry, your base damage is too low, Monk. Chi Blast only plz."

This doesn't mean to stifle player creativity. The Ninja was not designed by SE to tank, but because the players wanted them to be, SE now supports them tanking.

If a Samurai/Ninja can tank it efficiently, then by Altana let him do it. But a Paladin should also be able to tank it just as well, but merely through a vastly different play style.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

That is not how FFXI works. How it was designed to work. How it will be designed to work. How it has ever worked.

That is not how periods work, how they were designed to work, how they will be designed to work, or how they have ever worked.

[Cursed]

actually GG, there's a 2005-2006 quote somewhere by sage sundi saying they never imagined there would be more than 2-3 relic holders of each type of weapon across all servers, and that the first time they saw someone level their 2nd 75 they were pleasantly surprised. They didn't intend for people to level several jobs in the earlier days of this game. They didn't even expect pre-RoZ jobs (BASIC JOBS) to go beyond 50 when the "advanced jobs" came out.

[Rearden]

Well, Sundi is a retard so that kind of ignorance regarding your playerbase is expected.

[Zagen]

Well, Sundi is a retard so that kind of ignorance regarding your playerbase is expected.
You do realize those comments were made because SE didn't initially intend FFXI to go past 2-3 year life span right? And back then the game was in a state those comments made sense.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No, seriously, we (almost apparently not you) all already know Sage Sundi has made some pretty retarded statements about game mechanics, bringing them up now doesn't really mean anything. You might as well bring up the fact they were surprised a spell that lets you completely negate damage was being used for tanking.

[Rorrick]

Here's a question for Camate that epitomizes Paladin's plight;

Why does Perfect Defense negate all damage for nearly two minutes for all party members in range while Paladin's Invincible only negates physical damage directed at him/herself for thirty seconds?

[Andrien]

Umm.. That comment about Charybdis. PLD can tank that no problem. Just a different play style but, it is tank-able by PLD. Lv75 too. MNK/NIN, NIN/WAR, THF/NIN does it better though..(when shadows are up and hasted)

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm going to pretend the difficulty to tank chary remark didn't happen, and for your sanity you should too.


Here's a question for Camate that epitomizes Paladin's plight;

Why does Perfect Defense negate all damage for nearly two minutes for all party members in range while Paladin's Invincible only negates physical damage directed at him/herself for thirty seconds?

Perfect Dodge doesn't even block ranged attacks as well, probably old coding or.. something. It doesn't say it protects from magic either. Compared to Wow's it lasts longer, but doesn't actually make you invincible, which is kinda funny.

It also makes for epic lulz when someone has a horrible Invincible macro about they shall not fall then die to Ancient Magic.

[Economizer]

Most of the 2hours need updating. Maybe a job trait at 91 or some level could boost the effectiveness of all of them.

Paladin could be more Invincible, or Invincible for longer for example. If you guys can convince SE to adjust your two hour, just make sure to get SE to fix Benediction to do what it says and adjust some of the pet job 2hours.

[Greatguardian]

I'm going to pretend the difficulty to tank chary remark didn't happen, and for your sanity you should too.

Oh I've done it on Paladin at 75 without issues =/. I just don't see your average Pld/War "please give us native voke" Paladin doing it, though, and felt the reference would be more relevant to them than talking about HNMs that half the forums have probably never even seen.

[Cursed]

No, seriously, we (almost apparently not you) all already know Sage Sundi has made some pretty retarded statements about game mechanics, bringing them up now doesn't really mean anything. You might as well bring up the fact they were surprised a spell that lets you completely negate damage was being used for tanking.

How tarded Sundi is, is not relevant. Statements were made in the past by Sundi and others. Some have held water to date, some/majority have not. I paraphrased Sundi's comments to highlight this point. It must have gone over your head.
If anything I agree that what ANY SE spokesperson says can't be considered fact and must be taken with a fair dose of skepticism.
"We will never raise the Lv.cap beyond 75".

And tanking Charby as PLD/anything with little support used to be noteworthy. I'm not saying it was epic, but as GG said it wasn't done on a daily basis by every earth staff wielding full 5/5 gallant outfitted PLD.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Oh wow, I saw Cursed's post and thought that was you, my bad.

[Cursed]

PLD just doesn't get any love. The PLD forums have had more views, more player replies, more complaints/suggestions/moaning than any other job forum/thread and much less replies from the Devs.
I just hope they're working on something....anything...and can't respond now because they recognize the depth of this problem.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Colour me wrong but I'm fairly certain 1-2 of the most viewed threads not in Gen discussion is over on the Rdm forums.

[Rorrick]

This bothers me. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11581-FINAL-FANTASY-XI-Job-Adjustment-Manifesto-Warrior?p=172882&viewfull=1#post172882) Specifically, this portion:


Currently, balance wise, it’s pretty difficult to add defensive properties to warrior as they have a huge arsenal of attack abilities. It might be possible to look into some sort of attack/defense trade-off, but we do not have any concrete adjustment plans for defense only.

This is a slap in the face.

If you give Warrior a defensive buff, you can most certainly give Paladin an offensive one. If it requires a trade off, give Paladin an offensive stance that sacrifices its defense (perhaps akin to Hasso, enhancing our two-handed skills to make use of our Greatsword and Staff proficiencies).

The fact that you're even considering enhancing Warrior's defensive capabilities while simultaneously telling Paladins that giving us any sort of offensive enhancement would make us broken is incredibly frustrating.

[DebbieGibson]

Why is that frustrating? They don't want to give pld an offensive stance that sacrifices defense but they want to give war a defensive stance that sacrifices offense. Why don't you just play warrior if you want to do damage?

[Rorrick]

Why is that frustrating? They don't want to give pld an offensive stance that sacrifices defense but they want to give war a defensive stance that sacrifices offense. Why don't you just play warrior if you want to do damage?

Why give Warrior a defensive stance? If you want to survive, play Paladin.

It's frustrating because buffing Paladin in any way apparently makes it broken, but buffing the strongest job in the game is A-Okay. Paladin and Warrior are at the two extremes in this game; raw offense and raw defense. If something is acceptable for one, the inverse should be acceptable for the other.

[Karbuncle]

Gotta say i agree with Rorrick here, I'm not a fan of double Standards.

They're hesitant to buff WAR Def, so it might never happen, but if it did, i feel PLD should get a small offensive buff. An Offensive buff to PLD will only help it tank/hold hate better, i cannot fathom a negative.

Edit; Then again I'd be lying if i said i wasn't just jaded at the fact THF got some BS about Aura Steal being too powerful to adjust while DRK gets Aura Steal 2.0 with ability to steal 2 buffs at once. I mean, I'm not angry at DRK, I'm angry at double standards. DRK can get all the buffs it wants.

Edit; Think of it more this way, You're a kid and you want Ice Cream, But your parents tell you "no, its too expensive", and then they go buy ice cream for your brother. You're going to be like "Wth?" you probably wont be angry at your brother, its not his fault, but your parents just played favorites/double standards, and that shit isn't cool.

This is where he's coming from.

[DebbieGibson]

But the point is why does what war gets affect pld at all? If se wants pld to have balls-to-the-wall defense and crappy offense and they want war to have balls-to-the-wall offense and some moderate defense then that's just how it is.
SE values defensive capability as more useful than offensive capability, and therefore considers a very defensive job having offensive capability to be overpowered, while the reverse case not overpowered.

Perhaps even SE wants some jobs to be better than others? Maybe they don't give 2 shits about balancing the love and attention they give to pld and war. The SE gods dribbled their joy juice on war, if you don't like that pld isn't getting any joy juice go play war instead.

[Karbuncle]

Rather i agree or disagree is beyond my grasp atm.

I just dislike the idea of Double standards, regardless of the reasons or intentions behind them.

[DebbieGibson]

Do you think the developers have a special place in their heart for war and pld is the bastard child? It seems like comparing pld and war saying if one gets x the other should get x is just silly. I understand having the various DD jobs balanced(poor thf), but balancing a tank and a DD? And not even game balance, this is a complaint about how much attention SE is giving each job, it is stupid.

[Karbuncle]

Again, your point would stand scrutiny from me, If not for the double standards at play. If they were like "We understand WAR is paper we might give them some defense" it'd be no problem to me.

But its not, its "PLD can't have offensive abilities because they're a defense job" and then "WAR is an offensive job, but defense is doable".

Its a double standard. Again, Its really not that big of a deal to me personally, but I'm assuming this is Rorrick's beef.

[DebbieGibson]

Create your own job class, you have 10 points to spend, and you can choose one of each from both of these categories:

Defensive category:

High Defense costs 10 points.
Medium Defense costs 7 points.
Low Defense costs 5 points.

Offensive category:

High Offense costs 5 points.
Medium Offense costs 3 points.
Low Offense costs 1 points.



SE apparently thinks that defense is worth more than offense in FFXI

edit: listed wrong point cost

[Kavik]

New update notes reply, no i didn't read the intervening 15 pages of posts, but i want to reply to this, also i agree with all the posts on my page 20 that state that the dev's saying no pld can't have offensive capabilities to help them keep hate but war's can have defensive ones so when they inevitably pull hate doing dmg that we're not gonna let the pld do to keep hate they can survive.... is utter nonsense, like i said in a previous post, just delete pld if you're gonna do that, i will lvl war to tank with and have all the pld gear space availble for war stuff. Anyway, i would like to mention....


Paladin

Palisade (Lv. 95)
Increases chance of blocking with shield, and eliminates enmity loss.


Ninja

Issekigan (Lv. 95)
Increases chance of parrying, and gives an enmity bonus upon a successful parry attempt

I am REALLY tired of this, instead of not losing enmity we don't HAVE, make it so our shield blocking GIVES us enmity. Also... pld gets one new thing this update MOST of the other jobs got new spells or at least higher tiers of old ones.... pld got Palisade, which if pld's history is anything to go by, is going to be a 30 second (or thereabouts) duration and a 5 min recast with does NOTHING.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

They should have just called the new /ja "Reprisal II" instead.

I'd say I was disappointed, but I would have had to have my hopes up to begin with.

[Andrien]

Oh well.... Wasn't easy since they buffed melees.

so disappointed


scroll of Holy. PLD lv55 WHM lv50

will pld get Holy II at lv99? or never lol

[Cursed]

Interesting.
Will wait to see how long the Job ability lasts and how much added block rate % it provides.
Unless its as good as Hasso/Seigan/Yonnin/Innin, then its just going to be another useless line of my JA list like sepluncher and Divine Emblem.

[Rorrick]

But the point is why does what war gets affect pld at all? If se wants pld to have balls-to-the-wall defense and crappy offense and they want war to have balls-to-the-wall offense and some moderate defense then that's just how it is.
SE values defensive capability as more useful than offensive capability, and therefore considers a very defensive job having offensive capability to be overpowered, while the reverse case not overpowered.

Perhaps even SE wants some jobs to be better than others? Maybe they don't give 2 shits about balancing the love and attention they give to pld and war. The SE gods dribbled their joy juice on war, if you don't like that pld isn't getting any joy juice go play war instead.

Because Defense is the only weapon Paladin has, and its about as appealing on its own as a root canal. If you enhance Warrior's defense, even at the cost of (some of) its offense, you've now reduced the demand for Paladin even further. Why take a Paladin if you can get similar survivability out of Warrior and far more potential offense? It's the exact situation we're in right now.

Can you honestly not see how this is a double standard? Doing anything to one job impacts every other job by virtue of competition. Enhancing the tanking ability of Warrior makes every other tank less attractive, and your proposed solution of "go play Warrior" is an obnoxiously ignorant statement.

The goal is (or should be...) to make every every job desirable. Even considering a buff to Warrior's defensive capability after flat out refusing to even consider any buff relating to Paladin's offense flies completely in the face of that goal.

As I said; Warrior and Paladin are polar opposites. If something is being investigated for one of them, the inverse should be applicable to the other.

Edit: It's not Reprisal II, because Reprisal reflects damage, and Paladin will get Holy II at 99.

[DebbieGibson]

Why take a Paladin if you can get similar survivability out of Warrior and far more potential offense? It's the exact situation we're in right now.

You're joking right

[Zagen]

Edit: It's not Reprisal II, because Reprisal reflects damage, and Paladin will get Holy II at 99.
Reprisal increases block rate in addition to the spike damage....


You're joking right
If they gave WAR more defensive abilities as he said it would bleed into PLD territory even further making PLD even less desirable.

[DebbieGibson]

If they gave WAR more defensive abilities as he said it would bleed into PLD territory even further making PLD even less desirable.

Incorrect. They would have to do far more than as camate put it "some sort of attack/defense trade-off" to make war come close to pld's defensive capability.

[Zagen]

Incorrect. They would have to do far more than as camate put it "some sort of attack/defense trade-off" to make war come close to pld's defensive capability.
Outside of T4 Voidwatch WAR is already far ahead of PLD as a tank option... I understand the concept of the hardest content requiring a PLD at least until people figure out how to use a DD tank but T4 Voidwatch are going to become slightly easier with the cap raise, and more so once 99 is available which will help groups finding ways to use a DD tank effectively over PLD.

Giving WAR anything "Defensive" pushes it closer to PLD on harder stuff. And please don't think it will be ATK > DEF that's called Defender.... Highly doubt they'd do Defender 2.

[DebbieGibson]

Outside of T4 Voidwatch WAR is already far ahead of PLD as a tank option... I understand the concept of the hardest content requiring a PLD at least until people figure out how to use a DD tank but T4 Voidwatch are going to become slightly easier with the cap raise, and more so once 99 is available which will help groups finding ways to use a DD tank effectively over PLD.

Giving WAR anything "Defensive" pushes it closer to PLD on harder stuff. And please don't think it will be ATK > DEF that's called Defender.... Highly doubt they'd do Defender 2.

Oh yeah I forgot that post where Camate said T4 voidwatch was going to be the last endgame content at 99.

[Zagen]

Oh yeah I forgot that post where Camate said T4 voidwatch was going to be the last endgame content at 99.
At 75 the "last" endgame with the exception of AV/PW was tanked by DDs so your point? And those now are Perfect Defense Zerged by DD?

The point was right now PLD has 1 use that it excels at and that's T4 Voidwatch which soon will more than likely change reducing PLD to 1 use of w/e the hardest "endgame" is until the next level cap. And once we hit 99 it will remain great at the hardest things until groups find ways to use a DD tank over PLD because if the job can do more damage and still tank it is a better tank than PLD and pushes PLD out.

Like I said PLD is great for new hard content until people figure out how to game it to use a DD tank and then it becomes as useless as it is now.

[Ashael]

Is it just me, or would I take any sort of more than half hearted buff atm?
I just don't get why Reprisal can't be a full time spell, but Retribution is a full time ability, and far more useful/devastating. Maybe make Reprisal add Shield Mastery +5? Palisade... eh.. we'll see.
I find it offensive that we received no spells either.
I'd take some stupid ideas that enhance our magic at this point. 15s JA that allows you to convert TP into a Cure Potency effect. Half cost or double potency cures when the target is not yourself. Maybe an enmity gain JT that enhances PLD cures and reduces enmity of the target of your cures.
I dunno.
Just hate how many jobs are pretty much overpowering, and SE "doesn't want to disturb game balance" by adjusting PLD.

[Kirth]

Had such a rant to post, but realized it's not going to make a difference. These devs are absurd. Instead, I'm going to go outside and get some sun on my pale pale nerd skin.

[DebbieGibson]

At 75 the "last" endgame with the exception of AV/PW was tanked by DDs so your point? And those now are Perfect Defense Zerged by DD?

The point was right now PLD has 1 use that it excels at and that's T4 Voidwatch which soon will more than likely change reducing PLD to 1 use of w/e the hardest "endgame" is until the next level cap. And once we hit 99 it will remain great at the hardest things until groups find ways to use a DD tank over PLD because if the job can do more damage and still tank it is a better tank than PLD and pushes PLD out.

Like I said PLD is great for new hard content until people figure out how to game it to use a DD tank and then it becomes as useless as it is now.

Well you'll probably get a year out of pld at least before it needs any fixing probably?

[Zagen]

Well you'll probably get a year out of pld at least before it needs any fixing probably?
And I'm supposed to be happy with that as a player who likes the PLD job? Are you happy with that concept?

--------

SE you're scared about over powering PLD because it will potentially make it the "best" tank and what's so wrong about that? For years PLDs have learned to hold back or rush to hate cap as needed when co-tanking. Make PLD superior and nothing changes, when a PLD isn't available for most content other jobs can fill in. If PLD is the only tank/co-tank option for 1-2 events who gives a crap it takes a month if you're slower to get PLD up to speed level/gear/skills wise if a group doesn't have a PLD.

Do something about this, sitting back and doing nothing out of fear is not a "fix".

[Orlind]

I agree that PLD gets put on the sidelines way too often once people figure out how to DD tank stuff. And its probably going to happen to Voidwatch too just like everything else. I don't think too many jobs get into this kind of situation except for those that don't seem like popular choices most of the time.

Also, the way S-E treats PLD compared to other jobs seems a bit off as well. With many other jobs, it seems to be easy for them to add power to already powerful jobs and its always PLD they seem to have to "balance". Its not like we need overpowering moves that take away any party dynamics. Maybe just stuff that will allow us to not be completely dependent on other jobs to fill our role and not be completely overshadowed by other jobs most of the time in that role.

On another not, I'm still not sure why native Fencer would be game-breaking on a PLD at all, especially since the job with the most tiers of it (WAR) has no real use for it right now. It does add a bit of damage but even if PLDs had the same tier as WAR natively, it would probably only bring the balance between PLD and DD closer together rather than break anything.

[Zagen]

On another not, I'm still not sure why native Fencer would be game-breaking on a PLD at all, especially since the job with the most tiers of it (WAR) has no real use for it right now. It does add a bit of damage but even if PLDs had the same tier as WAR natively, it would probably only bring the balance between PLD and DD closer together rather than break anything.

Not saying this is a good reason but the only one I've come with and that is SE still believes PLD/WAR is the way to go... and giving PLD Fencer means no reason to /WAR, not that I'm saying that's reason enough to /WAR without an Ochain.

[Cursed]

I like to categorize jobs into 4 tiers

1.Necessary - example WHM, THF
2.Helpful - COR, BRD, RDM, DNC Another couple of DD's (WAR/MNK/NIN)
3.Leech/"I will tolerate them because they're friends with the WHM" - PUP, DRG, BST, SMN, DNC.
4.and PLD.

[fernando]

hi,this is my first time posting to forums,ok first thing i have from rrelease wanted to be pld played my ass of to get the job and i loved it,after ToaU came out i was so excited for new things to do went to WG and got started,i soon found out i could not do any floor runs, reason? I WAS PLD from that time forward i was left out of all content up to this day,and SE will not do anything to get us back on track, why is this we will be over powered? no pld at this time takes so long to kill just an EP mob and whm can kill faster with no dmg done to it where pld is healing useing JA's the whole bit for one lil mob just how is the broken, PLD needs more raw power not def not shield blocks not one time blocks to party members we just want to beable to do what all others have been able to for along time now. the DEV's need to wake up pld has been shut out of all content but we are the broke class and from what i see we will remane there for alot longer

[fernando]

Hi again oh and dont tell me to play another job because i have sam nin war blu mnk bst pld all 90 all other close or at sub lvl so ya i have played other jobs pld however is my first and always will be my main.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

SE still believes PLD/WAR is the way to go...

Paraphrasing what I said earlier, if all the defense traits/abilities they're piling onto PLD actually mattered in the grand scheme of things, WAR/PLD would be as useful/popular as PLD/WAR.

[fernando]

pld as a sub does not work maybe with a few jobs but not war/pld i know i have tryed.

[Ashael]

That was sorta the point;p

I just don't get what SE is so afraid of, look at WAR, WHM, BLM. They're legitimately overpowered atm, and I do not mind. I don't want to nerf those jobs, I just want SE to throw some bones PLDs way. BLM gets a 5 minute -60% pdt (with shoes) on a 10 minute timer that sucks down your MP. What would be so bad about giving sentinel this for of timer? make it more than 1/4 or 1/8 of the time ability that you have to save for the eventual hate resets that mobs use.

Shoot, if you're afraid of making PLD a great tank, because then DDs would go hog wild... give PLD some form of support function... like Auras that when the PLDs engaged, party members within like 8 yalms get Regen IV, or reduced damage taken, or a redirection of like 10% damage onto the PLD.
Give us something neat rather than adjustments to 5 minute abilities with short durations...

Immunity to hate resets, or reduced effect or make Fealty go down to a 3 minute timer. Give us something that makes us the bricks that can take hits and keep trucking.

I really feel the dude who talked about WHM soloing faster/safer than PLD. That's just sad.

[DebbieGibson]

I don't understand why you are thinking pld is what needs adjusting. Pld is a great tank, it just isn't needed. Ask for harder content, not pld adjustments.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

It's because we want to be generally useful, not just on "hard content." There's more to the game than just "hard content," and "hard" isn't hard forever.

Not "only if the party make-up is perfect," not "only if we actually need a tank," not "only if you already have the best possible gear in the game," but generally.

It's hard to have too many support jobs or damage-dealers. But PLD can only tank, and tanks are something you only need zero or one of (and it's "zero" more often than it's "one").

[Cursed]

hi,this is my first time posting to forums,ok first thing i have from rrelease wanted to be pld played my ass of to get the job and i loved it,after ToaU came out i was so excited for new things to do went to WG and got started,i soon found out i could not do any floor runs, reason? I WAS PLD from that time forward i was left out of all content up to this day,and SE will not do anything to get us back on track, why is this we will be over powered? no pld at this time takes so long to kill just an EP mob and whm can kill faster with no dmg done to it where pld is healing useing JA's the whole bit for one lil mob just how is the broken, PLD needs more raw power not def not shield blocks not one time blocks to party members we just want to beable to do what all others have been able to for along time now. the DEV's need to wake up pld has been shut out of all content but we are the broke class and from what i see we will remane there for alot longer

Your broken english aside, I see what you're saying.
However Paladin is not "Knight".

If you want to play a class that dishes out dmg, you have a lot of options. PLD was never meant to compete in that area of physicality. It is supposed to be on the front lines as a Hybrid holy Knight/healer that sustains a lot of dmg and makes sacrifices in exchange for increased survivability of the party/alliance/team mates. Its not the white version of dark knight, its not the mid-evil version of samurai, and it sure as hell isn't supposed to smash things.
Dress your war up in heavy outdated armor if that's the kind of thing you want PLD to be.

A lot of other PLDs are not happy with where the job is today, but anyone who any clue about the job is not asking for increased dmg output. With a good weapon and the right atmas, it is already a decent enough DD to get the job done.Its not in the top 5, but it doesn't suck when geared/atma'd right.

the problem is that there are at least 5 other jobs that will perform much better in the dmg output department. So why choose a PLD when MMO's are all about efficiency and optimization? *Its why we pay 10,000,000 gil for 2 more str on the ear slot*

Also, if PLD gains even a 5% increase in dmg output, that's enough to truly break the current fragile balance of the game.
As SE said, increasing PLD's dmg output would just make it a one man army. Something it already can be, under the right circumstances and with an Ochain/aegis/almace.

[Cursed]

It's because we want to be generally useful, not just on "hard content." There's more to the game than just "hard content," and "hard" isn't hard forever.

Not "only if the party make-up is perfect," not "only if we actually need a tank," not "only if you already have the best possible gear in the game," but generally.

It's hard to have too many support jobs or damage-dealers. But PLD can only tank, and tanks are something you only need zero or one of (and it's "zero" more often than it's "one").

I'm sure PUP, SMN, Mythic-less DRGs would argue that regardless of content difficulty, they just want to be needed sometimes outside soloing, a Perfect defense/angon zerg.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Apples and oranges. A lot of the problem of pet jobs is that they're a little too versatile, to the point where people aren't sure where to put them. PLD has exactly the opposite problem: they have one role for which there is no use.

[Cursed]

Apples and oranges. A lot of the problem of pet jobs is that they're a little too versatile, to the point where people aren't sure where to put them. PLD has exactly the opposite problem: they have one role for which there is no use.

Not me. I know where to put pet jobs; receiving end of my boot.
Nothing more annoying than seeing a damn sheep, wyvren or automan's ass on my screen. And they cock block the shit out of you when you're trying to move around and shit.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Shush, the grown-ups are talking.

[DebbieGibson]

Th
It's because we want to be generally useful, not just on "hard content." There's more to the game than just "hard content," and "hard" isn't hard forever.

Not "only if the party make-up is perfect," not "only if we actually need a tank," not "only if you already have the best possible gear in the game," but generally.

It's hard to have too many support jobs or damage-dealers. But PLD can only tank, and tanks are something you only need zero or one of (and it's "zero" more often than it's "one").

Then the majority of the game content needs the difficulty increased to where DD cannot tank it.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Then the majority of the game content needs the difficulty increased to where DD cannot tank it.

That ain't happening. That would require rewriting the entire game from the ground up. It will be cheaper and easier to just write a whole new game.

It could have been possible to write all of the new content for new levels to need a tank, but that hasn't happened yet and probably won't be at this point.

So what PLD really needs is a new role to fill.

Besides, even if all the content was tailored to need a PLD, that would hardly be fair to the 19 other jobs. I want to see PLD be useful, not indispensable.

[DebbieGibson]

That ain't happening. That would require rewriting the entire game from the ground up. It will be cheaper and easier to just write a whole new game.

It could have been possible to write all of the new content for new levels to need a tank, but that hasn't happened yet and probably won't be at this point.

So what PLD really needs is a new role to fill.

Besides, even if all the content was tailored to need a PLD, that would hardly be fair to the 19 other jobs. I want to see PLD be useful, not indispensable.

A healing talent tree then

[Renromix]

Can we increase atonement dmg cap when u level up past 75? for example at 90 its gona be 1200-1500dmg
just an idea

[Zagen]

Besides, even if all the content was tailored to need a PLD, that would hardly be fair to the 19 other jobs. I want to see PLD be useful, not indispensable.
WHM says hello...

[DebbieGibson]

A healing talent tree then

To edit my earlier post, or just level whm? What is the problem with just playing a different job if pld isn't needed. It's still your character

[Andrien]

I think even WAR gets Shield Mastery.. The only thing WAR don't have is the magic spells that PLD have native to them. PLD magic is becoming boarder-line obsolete in terms of healing and offensive.

I find ways to forcefully Cure IV myself to gain enmity by switching in and out HP+ gears. I shouldn't have to be doing this.. Its like saying "Hey guys I'm going to hurt myself, so I can cast Cure IV on myself!"

I always thought PLD is the defenders of the defenseless. I hope SE wont let us down.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

"Hey guys I'm going to hurt myself(.)"

Time to level dark knight instead!

[Rorrick]

To edit my earlier post, or just level whm? What is the problem with just playing a different job if pld isn't needed. It's still your character

Because it should be useful or not exist. Telling me to play a different job does nothing to solve the problem of a class with no job to fill.

And I do play different jobs. I'd like to break out the heavy armor every once in a while. Paladin is easily the best-dressed job in the game, but there's no reason to pull any of my gear out of my locker. This is a problem.

You still don't seem to understand that "play a different job if pld isn't needed" means you'll never be on Paladin. There's no reason to play it, outside of unfamiliar T4 Voidwatch NMs. Once people figure out the gimmicks to those enemies, that too will be an event where Paladin is shelved in favor of SAM, WAR, DRK and MNK. This cycle of figuring out new content will continue until there is no more new content on the horizon, and then Paladin will be permanently out of a job. This is what needs addressing. All the short-sighted people on here barking about Voidwatch are obfuscating the underlying problem.

[Ashael]

Agreed. I've got PLD, WAR, WHM, THF, BLU, SAM, RDM, COR, RNG, NIN levelled. I pride myself on versatility. For whatever event I go what's needed. The problem is, PLD is never really needed. PLD is the first job I levelled, it's the job I tanked gods with at 68 waaaaay baaaack in the day.
I love the job change function, it's what makes FFXI unique. But I would like for there to be a role PLD can fill in parties where I can be useful when the mob isn't spamming Tier VIII -ga spells and hate resets on a 5 minute timer and the only smart damage is an ally of BLMs. I don't want to go back to those days.
Other games allow tons of jobs to fill different roles with different specializations.
WHM unfortunately has stolen all the roles of healing (best single target healer, best AoE healer, best HoT healer, best pre-emptive/shield healer (Cureskin) along with with better buffs and with 95, can cover all RDMs enfeebles adequately.
SE has flatly stated that they will not increase PLDs offensive abilities.
So that leaves us with tank, which PLD does adequately, but due to the initial mechanics not planning for DDs dishing out 3-7k WS every 10-20s, we get dusted. And it's not like our mitigation abilites are the best, we're dusted by one of the DDs that can out damage us as well as out mitigate us.
Or support, which I'm sure RDM, SCH and COR would like to be buffed there first.
Can anyone else think of a role for PLD to play?

[Teraniku]

...so in your eyes SE should buff plds attack and def so that it will be an unkillable god that puts all other jobs to shame? Job balance be damned let make pld overpowered so everyone will invite them!

Wait, you mean like RDM was @75?

[Andrien]

Time to level dark knight instead!

Already done that. It was the most emo'tional experience I've had while playing.. Don't ask.

[DebbieGibson]

Because it should be useful or not exist. Telling me to play a different job does nothing to solve the problem of a class with no job to fill.

And I do play different jobs. I'd like to break out the heavy armor every once in a while. Paladin is easily the best-dressed job in the game, but there's no reason to pull any of my gear out of my locker. This is a problem.

You still don't seem to understand that "play a different job if pld isn't needed" means you'll never be on Paladin. There's no reason to play it, outside of unfamiliar T4 Voidwatch NMs. Once people figure out the gimmicks to those enemies, that too will be an event where Paladin is shelved in favor of SAM, WAR, DRK and MNK. This cycle of figuring out new content will continue until there is no more new content on the horizon, and then Paladin will be permanently out of a job. This is what needs addressing. All the short-sighted people on here barking about Voidwatch are obfuscating the underlying problem.

Well how do you play a tank class in a game that doesn't need a tank? Maybe you're right, the best thing to do is just eliminate it.

[Andrien]

Since they're enhancing shield blocks.

(and since Cure IV is kind of obsolete)
A magic spell to make shield blocks absorb a portion of damage to restore HP.

Random additional effect Amnesia/Mute/Stun with Shield Bash. 5sec duration with mute and amnesia

[DebbieGibson]

Since they're enhancing shield blocks.

(and since Cure IV is kind of obsolete)
A magic spell to make shield blocks absorb a portion of damage to restore HP.

Random additional effect Amnesia/Mute/Stun with Shield Bash. 5sec duration with mute and amnesia

How do these things make pld useful to a group who can simply tank with one of the damage dealers?

[Andrien]

How do these things make pld useful to a group who can simply tank with one of the damage dealers?

I don't know what new difficult content is ahead of us. I was thinking in the future and the survivability of the job. Cut me some slack this is all I can think of that makes pld unique with shields lol.

[DebbieGibson]

I don't know what new difficult content is ahead of us. I was thinking in the future and the survivability of the job. Cut me some slack this is all I can think of that makes pld unique with shields lol.

I suggest shield bash giving a +30% damage taken effect to the mob.

[Andrien]

I suggest shield bash giving a +30% damage taken effect to the mob.

You know SE will never do something that nice. Especially when they don't want PLD to damage deal even a little bit.

[Zagen]

Fun semi-broken sounding idea PLD gets a JA like Retaliation except it works on shield blocks and deals the damage absorbed back to the monster so if you block 100 damage and take 40 the 60 get dealt back to the monster. Keeps shield sizes from getting super broken and keeps Aegis/Ochain broken in comparison. Making it an ability with the duration of the recast allows it to be dispelled gimping PLD but allows them to full-time it otherwise. This gives PLD a way to deal damage while taking damage (discourages /NIN which SE seems to dislike). Also gives PLD a better shot of doing enough damage to warrant using a PLD over a DD as a tank.

[DebbieGibson]

Fun semi-broken sounding idea PLD gets a JA like Retaliation except it works on shield blocks and deals the damage absorbed back to the monster so if you block 100 damage and take 40 the 60 get dealt back to the monster. Keeps shield sizes from getting super broken and keeps Aegis/Ochain broken in comparison. Making it an ability with the duration of the recast allows it to be dispelled gimping PLD but allows them to full-time it otherwise. This gives PLD a way to deal damage while taking damage (discourages /NIN which SE seems to dislike). Also gives PLD a better shot of doing enough damage to warrant using a PLD over a DD as a tank.

I don't think that would be semi-broken at all. That's basically a gimpy counterstance mnk.

[Zagen]

I don't think that would be semi-broken at all. That's basically a gimpy counterstance mnk.
If they cap it maybe not but think about mobs that would hit for 600+ bring an Ochain PLD 2 WHMs and watch the mob kill itself :D

Edit: not that I wouldn't enjoy seeing that happen.