FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustments Manifesto: Paladin

[Ceicel]

Revamp the enmity system, that should be the first and foremost action taken to fixing PLD's roles. There is no reason for the one system of the game that PLD's core hinges on inorder to perform properly is one of the largest thing's preventing us from being able to compete with competent and decently geared DD tank's. And please no more of this "give us provoke", the ability is crap, has always been crap end-game, and is only usefull initially or in the event of a hate-reset, and will do nothing to help us unless it redirects the mob's attention to us regardless of other player's CE and VE levels for a few seconds.

[Rorrick]

Enmity.
Is.
Not.
The.
Problem.

[DebbieGibson]

Revamp the enmity system, that should be the first and foremost action taken to fixing PLD's roles. There is no reason for the one system of the game that PLD's core hinges on inorder to perform properly is one of the largest thing's preventing us from being able to compete with competent and decently geared DD tank's. And please no more of this "give us provoke", the ability is crap, has always been crap end-game, and is only usefull initially or in the event of a hate-reset, and will do nothing to help us unless it redirects the mob's attention to us regardless of other player's CE and VE levels for a few seconds.

How is this going to make pld valuable to a group who can simply tank with a DD and leave the PLD out completely?

[Zagen]

How is this going to make pld valuable to a group who can simply tank with a DD and leave the PLD out completely?

I've got it! we remove the cap on Enmity values from Cure 5/6 and make it work just like the other cures! That's perfect that way the WHMs will cap hate over the DDs and anyone else attempting to tank that takes damage! Then the PLD covers the WHM and bam PLD is fixed!

/sarcasm

The saddest thing is most PLDs think Enmity is the problem... Then again most PLDs have no clue how it actually works :(

[Caketime]

Your broken english aside, I see what you're saying.
However Paladin is not "Knight".

Condescending posts about spelling and grammar are rad, especially when we consider that this is an informal location for discussion where people from all over the world (literally) congregate to talk about a job class in an online game. Further, "Go level another job" is old and tired, he wasn't asking for his job to be the best he just wanted to be able to use it occasionally in a legitimate manner. As it stands now, the job is completely shelved for any content that groups actually want to do and even if the PLD has Almace/Ochain/Mr. T is his fucking caddy, groups want another job instead. The problem here is that while a PLD is capable of damage output with those particular items, they are required to do passable damage, whereas any Perle wearing WAR with an AH bought Great Axe can outperform that PLD because Great Axe WS are just sick compared to even the best Sword WS. The grossly un-proportionate amount of effort and work required just to be on par with other jobs is stupid, I can understand dedication to your chosen job but the time/reward ratio just feels skewed against PLD in every way.

[DebbieGibson]

Condescending posts about spelling and grammar are rad, especially when we consider that this is an informal location for discussion where people from all over the world (literally) congregate to talk about a job class in an online game. Further, "Go level another job" is old and tired, he wasn't asking for his job to be the best he just wanted to be able to use it occasionally in a legitimate manner. As it stands now, the job is completely shelved for any content that groups actually want to do and even if the PLD has Almace/Ochain/Mr. T is his fucking caddy, groups want another job instead. The problem here is that while a PLD is capable of damage output with those particular items, they are required to do passable damage, whereas any Perle wearing WAR with an AH bought Great Axe can outperform that PLD because Great Axe WS are just sick compared to even the best Sword WS. The grossly un-proportionate amount of effort and work required just to be on par with other jobs is stupid, I can understand dedication to your chosen job but the time/reward ratio just feels skewed against PLD in every way.

Well SE doesn't want pld to do damage so they are useless when you don't need a real tank, end of story, job change.

[Caketime]

Well SE doesn't want pld to do damage so they are useless when you don't need a real tank, end of story, job change.

Exactly. I and many others have done so, I don't see the trend changing anytime soon. Trollfu +1, Debbie.

[Cursed]

Condescending posts about spelling and grammar are rad, especially when we consider that this is an informal location for discussion where people from all over the world (literally) congregate to talk about a job class in an online game. Further, "Go level another job" is old and tired, he wasn't asking for his job to be the best he just wanted to be able to use it occasionally in a legitimate manner. As it stands now, the job is completely shelved for any content that groups actually want to do and even if the PLD has Almace/Ochain/Mr. T is his fucking caddy, groups want another job instead. The problem here is that while a PLD is capable of damage output with those particular items, they are required to do passable damage, whereas any Perle wearing WAR with an AH bought Great Axe can outperform that PLD because Great Axe WS are just sick compared to even the best Sword WS. The grossly un-proportionate amount of effort and work required just to be on par with other jobs is stupid, I can understand dedication to your chosen job but the time/reward ratio just feels skewed against PLD in every way.

you think an AH perle war/sam is going to outperform a decked out pld/war with almace/ochain?
That's what I am reading, am I wrong?
On what mob also?

[Zagen]

you think an AH perle war/sam is going to outperform a decked out pld/war with almace/ochain?
That's what I am reading, am I wrong?
On what mob also?
You're either over estimating Almace/Ochain or under estimating WAR. Either way it doesn't matter because a realistic comparison would be Almace/Ochain PLD to a Ukko WAR and the WAR will destroy the PLD even if the PLD is using Ochain's block rate with a bunch of mobs. T4 Voidwatch excluded.

[Caketime]

you think an AH perle war/sam is going to outperform a decked out pld/war with almace/ochain?
That's what I am reading, am I wrong?
On what mob also?

The ability to use JA on time and pressing the WS button after stacking your damage buffs goes a long way toward dishing out and maintaining large numbers as Warrior (or any job). Good gear is just icing on an already delicious cake. I'd be willing to wager I could at least par you with an AH Greataxe and my birthday suit vs. your multiple specialized gear sets and shiny sword.

[Cursed]

Argument was an AH perle WAR will outperform a decked out PLD Almace/Ochain.
That depends on the player.
We've seen parses on Itzipapa, turul, Bukhis, Sobek, Amhuluk where a Ukon WAR came behind an Almace PLD.
Ukon WAR was a retarded Taru that full timed 28% haste and ws'd in Bullwhip. Almace PLD had the absolute ideal cdc and tp set. Being a WAR and having a Ukon doesn't compensate for being an idiot. That's my point.
Almace is a great weapon, and some Lv.90 Perle AH WARs CAN be outparsed by a PLD depending on a lot of things.

I'm not saying PLD is a great DD. I'm saying WAR isn't God Mode in FFXI.

[Zagen]

Argument was an AH perle WAR will outperform a decked out PLD Almace/Ochain.
That depends on the player.
We've seen parses on Itzipapa, turul, Bukhis, Sobek, Amhuluk where a Ukon WAR came behind an Almace PLD.
Ukon WAR was a retarded Taru that full timed 28% haste and ws'd in Bullwhip. Almace PLD had the absolute ideal cdc and tp set. Being a WAR and having a Ukon doesn't compensate for being an idiot. That's my point.
Almace is a great weapon, and some Lv.90 Perle AH WARs CAN be outparsed by a PLD depending on a lot of things.

I'm not saying PLD is a great DD. I'm saying WAR isn't God Mode in FFXI.
The argument was about gear comparison not player skill. You know how a PLD requires 2 Emp items to compete with a non Emp wielding DD.

[Cursed]

The argument was about gear comparison not player skill. You know how a PLD requires 2 Emp items to compete with a non Emp wielding DD.

Ochain does nothing for a PLD's dmg output if they're not tanking 10-20 mobs at the same time, which in all likelihood they won't be unless soloing or capping amber. So its really just 1 empyrean.

[Zagen]

Ochain does nothing for a PLD's dmg output if they're not tanking 10-20 mobs at the same time, which in all likelihood they won't be unless soloing or capping amber. So its really just 1 empyrean.

Are you honestly arguing that a near 100% block rate shield won't increase a PLD's damage output in anyway against 1 mob? Sure it isn't the same as 10 trash mobs feeding you TP but it will do a lot more than a non-relic/emp shield. Also Ochain allows PLD to /WAR on a lot more monsters increasing damage potential from the DA, Berserk, and Fencer. So no it is 2 Emps vs. 1 because an Almace/Ochain PLD will be better than an Almace PLD.

[Cursed]

Are you honestly arguing that a near 100% block rate shield won't increase a PLD's damage output in anyway against 1 mob? Sure it isn't the same as 10 trash mobs feeding you TP but it will do a lot more than a non-relic/emp shield. Also Ochain allows PLD to /WAR on a lot more monsters increasing damage potential from the DA, Berserk, and Fencer. So no it is 2 Emps vs. 1 because an Almace/Ochain PLD will be better than an Almace PLD.

First - you don't seem to get it. If a PLD is fighting a mob solo, there's no one to parse against.... If the PLD has any other melee in the pt with them, fighting a mob, it won't be 40-50 seconds before either or both of them are capped on hate, in which case the mob is just going to be twirling around, if it lives that long. In which case, the 5-10 extraTP the ochain PLD gets from blocking 1-2 attacks isn't worth mentioning.

Second - dunno why we're talking about subs. /WAR or gtfo if you're asked to come PLD. /DNC if you're soloing shit. This topic isnt about soloing.

Third- not worth it. never mind, carry on.

EDIT: If you waiting for an ochain to sub /war... i don't even ..

[Zagen]

First - you don't seem to get it. If a PLD is fighting a mob solo, there's no one to parse against.... If the PLD has any other melee in the pt with them, fighting a mob, it won't be 40-50 seconds before either or both of them are capped on hate, in which case the mob is just going to be twirling around, if it lives that long. In which case, the 5-10 extraTP the ochain PLD gets from blocking 1-2 attacks isn't worth mentioning.

Second - dunno why we're talking about subs. /WAR or gtfo if you're asked to come PLD. /DNC if you're soloing shit. This topic isnt about soloing.

Third- not worth it. never mind, carry on.

EDIT: If you waiting for an ochain to sub /war... i don't even ..

First I didn't say I don't /WAR or that I'm waiting for Ochain to /WAR I said it makes it an option on some NMs that /NIN just favors due to En-effects (hi Adzaja). That said PLD isn't an option and won't be even after Ochain for the current events I do because I have other jobs that tank better. Maybe when we're bored I'll pull out PLD/WAR but even then that's a stretch.

You started by contesting that a WAR/SAM with AH gear wouldn't beat an Almace/Ochain PLD. You then go back on what you said and that it depends on the player. You then decide to argue a PLD benefits almost nothing from Ochain yet your initial argument was that Almace/Ochain would beat an AH WAR/SAM... You're all over the place with your arguments. Not sure where you'll go next honestly, but I don't care, you jump around too much to have a nice discussion with.

[Cursed]

First I didn't say I don't /WAR or that I'm waiting for Ochain to /WAR I said it makes it an option on some NMs that /NIN just favors due to En-effects (hi Adzaja). That said PLD isn't an option and won't be even after Ochain for the current events I do because I have other jobs that tank better. Maybe when we're bored I'll pull out PLD/WAR but even then that's a stretch.

You started by contesting that a WAR/SAM with AH gear wouldn't beat an Almace/Ochain PLD. You then go back on what you said and that it depends on the player. You then decide to argue a PLD benefits almost nothing from Ochain yet your initial argument was that Almace/Ochain would beat an AH WAR/SAM... You're all over the place with your arguments. Not sure where you'll go next honestly, but I don't care, you jump around too much to have a nice discussion with.

I'm sorry its not a black and white world and the amount of scenarios where something might or might not be true are too numerous to sum up in a post. You can understand my posts to read that if you want, if that's how simple you need things to be. yes,no.
my responses covered several scenarios because you raised different scenarios.
An ochain can be useful or be useless for increasing dmg output.
to spell it out for you; when you're soloing and you are the only target with hate, it WILL increase your dmg output.
when you are in a party with a half decent lv90 melee on anything that will live longer than 40-50 seconds, ochain is useless in increasing dmg output because the pld won't be benefiting from the tp gain or lack of it due to not being in possession of hate long enough.

Do you understand engrish?

"Ochain does nothing for a PLD's dmg output if they're not tanking 10-20 mobs at the same time, which in all likelihood they won't be unless soloing or capping amber. So its really just 1 empyrean. "

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Cursed is trolling. /blist and move on.

[Alerith]

How about something as simple as a weaponskill?

Phantom Blade: Absorb (reset) your party's emnity and deliver a five-fold attack. Attack power varies with party emnity.

You're lowering everyone else's emnity, you're gaining that emnity and you're dealing damage based on that. It's perfect for when you have a heavy DD party.

You keep emnity down and your party just needs to "recharge" their emnity in order to get the best effect of this ability.

[Zagen]

How about something as simple as a weaponskill?

Phantom Blade: Absorb (reset) your party's emnity and deliver a five-fold attack. Attack power varies with party emnity.

You're lowering everyone else's emnity, you're gaining that emnity and you're dealing damage based on that. It's perfect for when you have a heavy DD party.

You keep emnity down and your party just needs to "recharge" their emnity in order to get the best effect of this ability.
When it takes a DD 30-90 seconds to cap hate from melee/WS this won't actually do anything. Also completely screws up Co-Tank Situations as you'd reduce the other tanks Enmity.

[Andrien]

A simple job trait that occasionally spikes enmity on normal melee hits. boom!

Make Sentinel area of effect, and increase aggression.

Tweak Rampart magic shield effect. Mitigate magical damage over time. Increase its enmity.

Shield Bash does Stun, occasionally Silence, and Amnesia.

Shell V

Cure V. Merit enmity on it

Weapon Skill: Lights Blade

Tweak Cover. Absorb MP on successful cover.

New Magic. Absorb HP on shield blocks.

Invincible: Lock enemies on Paladin for 30sec.

New Ability. sacrifice 100MP and TP to restore HP. Area of Effect. Cure IV potency or higher.

PS: I just woke up.

[Greatguardian]

Goodness gracious.

Enmity is not the problem.

Enmity.

Is.

Not.

The.

Problem.

Enmity is not the problem.

Being unnecessary is the problem. Being purely defensive-oriented when that defense is not needed to win is the problem.

Comparing a stupid Ukon to a smart Almace is fallacious. Comparing a perle WAR to a decked Ochain is fallacious. These comparisons are only used so that people can feel justified in their inadequacy by ignoring opportunity cost and shifting the focus onto how gimp other people are.

Want the truth? Any good, intelligent Almace PLD will always do more damage if they were a good, intelligent Ukon WAR. The correct comparison is not to other people, but to oneself.

Want Paladin to be useful again? Petition for content that's hard enough that Paladin's pure defense orientation becomes necessary to survive consistently. Create monsters that one-shot Counterstanced Monks. Make an Aegis or an Ochain absolutely vital to tank the absolute strongest 99-Endgame monsters in the game.

Fifth-string Paladins who don't know how Enmity works think they should be necessary in full NQ AF3 and a PDT sword? Tough bloody luck. No matter how much they buff Paladin, any good DD will tank circles around a clueless Paladin. Always.

[Ashael]

Stolen from the PUP thread:
An example of our ideas about adjusting attachments is changing the “Enhances Defense” of Armor Plate to “Reduce physical damage taken.”
Why can't PLD get rid of the useless Defense Bonus trait and gain PDT instead?

While also making us unkillable until the mob charms us, resets hate after amnesiaing us and raping our support, or casts Deathga, Terrorga and Bindga in one move, why can't we be given more support functions.
Change cover to a job trait, sphere like, that allows the PLD to absorb some set percentage of damage taken by party members in 5-8 yalms? Give the PLD half cost cures when cast on others that reduces the targets Enmity while enhancing the PLDs? Give the PLD some AoE cures.
Just give us some toys so we can pretend to be useful instead of the brick that survives until his support is raped and nothing remains.
Maybe a pianissimo-style JA with a short recast 10-12 seconds, that allows us to cast cures that alter enmity? Or a JA that uses TP to enhance Cures.
Something besides 5 minute JAs. Something that enhances our usability.
They're not going to adjust our offense, so lets focus on support and defense.
None of these ideas are as overpowered as a WAR with Ukon with Retaliation up. None are as overpowered as BLM with Enmity Douse and Mana Wall. It's okay to buff PLD to a usable level, even if it defends the DDs. It won't break the game!

[Andrien]

Want Paladin to be useful again? Petition for content that's hard enough that Paladin's pure defense orientation becomes necessary to survive consistently. Create monsters that one-shot Counterstanced Monks. Make an Aegis or an Ochain absolutely vital to tank the absolute strongest 99-Endgame monsters in the game.



@Greatguardian
Your suggestion about Aegis and Ochain is little over board. If a PLD don't have those items they'll be unnecessary for all 99 content in your example. In this case it'll leave players seeking other jobs to fell that tanking role.

There is absolutely no reason to rant. Its good to leave suggestions and ideas. I believe SE wants to boost Paladin current defensive abilities and add new ones. Anymore enmity would make a fight boring.

[Greatguardian]

With some jobs, there is little difference between the bare minimum and the potential maximum that can be reached via player skill and gear. With Paladin, there is a monumental difference between these two points. Ochain, and now Aegis as well, are positively game-breaking shields. Paladin as a whole has always been highly technical and the gap between the inept and adept has always been wide.

So long as this gap exists, and so long as good players exist, game balance will have to work keeping the maximum in mind throughout.

If something can be tanked without an Ochain, then any well geared DD can also tank it.

If something can one-shot a good Warrior, it can one-shot a non-Ochain/Aegis Paladin.

The Empyrean and Relic shields are what make Paladin stand out from the crowd. Any effort to make Paladin more naturally powerful will simply overpower those shields even further. Rather, the Devs have smartly chosen to simply make these shields [more] easily attainable.

Anyone who cares to can get an Ochain or an Aegis. Anyone who does not will always be outclassed by a DD who chooses to pursue the best that they have available to them. The logical solution is to simply tailor the absolute strongest 99-Endgame content around people who have Ochains and Aegis' to tank.

Contrary to popular belief, every bit of Endgame content does not need to be inclusive to everyone. Abyssea was that way, and people seem to hate the massive bone the Devs threw them regardless. If there is not some content challenging enough such that the best players in the game will have to bring Ochain/Aegis Paladins to it, Paladin will never see a resurgence as a "necessary" job.

[Andrien]

SE recognize PLD is struggling with this, so if SE make more monsters with insane HP, unlimited hundred fist attack like speed, and can counter(there is one in sea). I can see a place where PLD is needed. I think its about time they make PLD go full defense and more efficient for the whole party.

[DebbieGibson]

With some jobs, there is little difference between the bare minimum and the potential maximum that can be reached via player skill and gear. With Paladin, there is a monumental difference between these two points. Ochain, and now Aegis as well, are positively game-breaking shields. Paladin as a whole has always been highly technical and the gap between the inept and adept has always been wide.

So long as this gap exists, and so long as good players exist, game balance will have to work keeping the maximum in mind throughout.

If something can be tanked without an Ochain, then any well geared DD can also tank it.

If something can one-shot a good Warrior, it can one-shot a non-Ochain/Aegis Paladin.

The Empyrean and Relic shields are what make Paladin stand out from the crowd. Any effort to make Paladin more naturally powerful will simply overpower those shields even further. Rather, the Devs have smartly chosen to simply make these shields [more] easily attainable.

Anyone who cares to can get an Ochain or an Aegis. Anyone who does not will always be outclassed by a DD who chooses to pursue the best that they have available to them. The logical solution is to simply tailor the absolute strongest 99-Endgame content around people who have Ochains and Aegis' to tank.

Contrary to popular belief, every bit of Endgame content does not need to be inclusive to everyone. Abyssea was that way, and people seem to hate the massive bone the Devs threw them regardless. If there is not some content challenging enough such that the best players in the game will have to bring Ochain/Aegis Paladins to it, Paladin will never see a resurgence as a "necessary" job.

Could not have said this any better.

[Alerith]

Take Counterstance away from MNK.
Double Utsusemi recast timers for NIN.
Make SAM take TP damage instead of HP damage.
Reduce DRK accuracy....well I guess that isn't needed.

To hell with changing PLD! Change other jobs to make PLD work!

[Rorrick]

SE recognize PLD is struggling with this, so if SE make more monsters with insane HP, unlimited hundred fist attack like speed, and can counter(there is one in sea). I can see a place where PLD is needed. I think its about time they make PLD go full defense and more efficient for the whole party.

Those mobs would likely kill Paladin as quickly, or quicker, than most DD jobs. Especially MNK, NIN and SAM. Paladin's defensive tools are arguably worse than many DD jobs' (Counterstance, Third Eye, Utsusemi), barring Ochain. If Ochain is the solution to Paladin's uselessness, I'd best be getting one for free, or the trials for it had best become much easier/less time consuming (the Colorless Souls are obnoxious, regardless of how you go about it). Requiring something the game regards as an ultimate weapon just to reach the baseline for usability is not a solution. Paladin's survivability should be buffed, with or without Ochain/Aegis.

[zell_]

A simple job trait that occasionally spikes enmity on normal melee hits. boom!

Make Sentinel area of effect, and increase aggression.

Tweak Rampart magic shield effect. Mitigate magical damage over time. Increase its enmity.

Shield Bash does Stun, occasionally Silence, and Amnesia.

Shell V

Cure V. Merit enmity on it

Weapon Skill: Lights Blade

Tweak Cover. Absorb MP on successful cover.

New Magic. Absorb HP on shield blocks.

Invincible: Lock enemies on Paladin for 30sec.

New Ability. sacrifice 100MP and TP to restore HP. Area of Effect. Cure IV potency or higher.

PS: I just woke up.

bolded text is what i was thinking of this morning. but going even deeper into why its harder for pld to keep up show that the attack speed(or rate i should say) of other jobs constantly keeps their enmity high.

i propose either the job trait listed by Andrien, or either a job ability that reduces enmity generation by surrounding party members. or dare i say both.

now this job ability would bar weapon skill damage, but i figure those are spike enmity situations in which the enemy would shift attention to the dd as if it used an ability similar to provoke.

when it comes to melee speed, pld isnt too bad. its just other jobs have ways to augment their speed: double attack, triple attack, dual wield and even the new hasso zanshin. if we could have lower enmity gained while meleeing under the job ability i proposed, then i think that would be a step forward in pld holding hate better.

[DebbieGibson]

Those mobs would likely kill Paladin as quickly, or quicker, than most DD jobs. Especially MNK, NIN and SAM. Paladin's defensive tools are arguably worse than many DD jobs' (Counterstance, Third Eye, Utsusemi), barring Ochain. If Ochain is the solution to Paladin's uselessness, I'd best be getting one for free, or the trials for it had best become much easier/less time consuming (the Colorless Souls are obnoxious, regardless of how you go about it). Requiring something the game regards as an ultimate weapon just to reach the baseline for usability is not a solution. Paladin's survivability should be buffed, with or without Ochain/Aegis.

:disgusted: (at your laziness)

[Greatguardian]

Considering Paladin's utility is and always will be prime on the hardest content in the game, everyone should have an Ultimate-class weapon or shield on it anyways. Paladin will never, ever be a casual content job. Sorry.

Edit: That said, Empyreans are stupid easy. Souls are annoying, and the shield/harp Abyssea trials are way worse than weapon Abyssea trials (I'd think because they bypass the crappy NM/VNM portions), but even those are being buffed next update. I dare say you can get over it if you actually want to play the job well.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

That said, Empyreans are stupid easy.

Then go get me one. Rorrick would like one too by the sound of it, so you'd best get started on the "stupid easy" ahead of you.

[Greatguardian]

Then go get me one. Rorrick would like one too by the sound of it, so you'd best get started on the "stupid easy" ahead of you.

Sorry, I have no sympathy for lazy. If I gave half a crap about you, I could definitely go get you one. But, alas, I don't. So sad.

We're not talking about Relic Weapons here. Empyreans take a couple of days of grinding, even with a casual pace and frequent breaks. If you solo them or take them super slow, at most they take a couple weeks or maybe a month. If you're unwilling to put in that modicum of effort, then you would likely not function well in any moderately difficult endgame anyways.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

If I gave half a crap about you, I could definitely go get you one.

If you have to actually care, then it's not as easy as you claim. You're unwilling to back up your words.


Empyreans take a couple of days of grinding,

But it's easy, so you should have no problem doing it for me.

Putting aside the question of the difficulty of getting an Ochain...

It's not fun!

"Hardest content in the game" to me reads as "least fun content in the game." I've never enjoyed endgame, even before the level cap bumps and Abyssea. Personally, it strikes me as nothing but grinding in pursuit of nothing more than some numbers in a database entry, not far removed from FarmVille. Heck, I'd personally be more interested in an Aegis than an Ochain if for no other reason than becuase there's cutscenes and a storyline behind it. It strikes me as a shining example of everything that is wrong with MMO's. I'd sooner go through ACP/AMK/ASA again.

I recognize that that's my opinion and other people do enjoy such things. You don't need my approval to go and enjoy yourself a nice session of Microsoft Excel Online. There are other things in the game that I do find enjoyable and you and I need never interact.

But I find the following totally unacceptable:
My preferred job is only useful in content that I hate. I'm not saying "I'm a thief but I don't want to pull!" or "I'm a beastmaster but I don't want to use pets!" but I am saying "I have absolutely no desire to fight those particular monsters, not once and certainly not dozens of times." Again, having certain numbers show up in your parser may make it all worthwhile to you, but that is not true of me.
My preferred job is only useful with gear that is only obtainable through content that I hate. I'd say the Maat fight is about my limit for broken, cheating, exacting content I am willing to put up with in order to get to do things I'd rather be doing (that is, beyond the crap I have to do to get the $12.95/mo to begin with). And I only had to win once. And I didn't have to /shout for help, deal with AoE or enstun spam, deal with ninja lotters or other lot drama, or beat him a hundred times over.


You can consider me lazy if you want, but that doesn't matter as we will never be doing the same content together as we have completely different tastes. However, the mechanics that you enjoy, the ones that say "PLD must be 1337!" affect everything in the game, both the content you want to do and the content I want to do. And so long as it's skewed entirely towards (what I consider to be) endgame BS, then the whole thing is utterly broken.

[DebbieGibson]

utterly broken.

Solution:
A) Get hired by SE(or buy SE).
B) Become lead dev of FFXI.
C) Make all mobs in the game hit like a truck and spam TP moves so that only pld can tank them.

Otherwise, quit, or play another job. I'm sorry that SE didn't design the game the way you would like.

[Ashael]

We're not talking about Relic Weapons here. Empyreans take a couple of days of grinding, even with a casual pace and frequent breaks. If you solo them or take them super slow, at most they take a couple weeks or maybe a month. If you're unwilling to put in that modicum of effort, then you would likely not function well in any moderately difficult endgame anyways.
I agree with these statements pertaining to Empyrean Weapons, not Shield or Harp. I've been working a lot, and Souls are annoying to farm. I'm about 1/4 the way through souls, and it's not hard to do alone, it's just a pain in the ass to find a time where I'm not gonna be competing for a 15 min repop to progress my stone to a T3 when there's not a 20 people all going for the T2 in all zones.
I don't mind slow grinding, I just don't like it that I can't make slow steady progress because the monsters are simply not available in the couple hours of play time I get on work days.

Back on topic, PLDs aren't the super answer on hard mobs. Aegis PLDs are, but even they can be relegated to useful but not necessary if the mob is hate resetting or Endooming or casting Death.
PLD really needs some buffs to allow them to be functional in some method in alliances at least, if not in parties. Or give us the soloability of other useless jobs so I can at least pretend I'm not wasting my time on PLD when I could be killing faster and safer on another job.
I love PLD, first job. It just needs some TLC. Use the guys who are coming up with the ideas for SAM, BLM and maybe RNG if that new stance/JA actually is effective. Have them help the PLD guys fix the job.

[Greatguardian]

Which zones are you trying? At the moment, there's a functionally retarded debate raging on BG about which zone T3 actually drops more souls, but it's honestly fairly likely that they all have similar drop rates; Ogopoggo is just a lot easier to kill. If competition is the main nuisance, I'd give Diabolos or Ifrit a try and see how those work out for you. Most of the people camping those T2s are only after seals anyways, so it's fairly easy to broker deals with them and just give seals away. I've even gotten a few free T3 pops from seal groups this way.

If people are really camping every zone for T3 pops already, then that really sucks and I can sympathize for you. There's not much that can be done about that. At least they're throwing us a pseudo-bone and increasing the Abyssite upgrade rates next update.

[Greatguardian]

If you have to actually care, then it's not as easy as you claim. You're unwilling to back up your words.

If I said that getting a decent headset for Ventrillo would only cost $20, would you then tell me to give you $20 or stfu? I should certainly hope not. Just because I don't think something is remotely difficult, doesn't mean that it's free, nor does it mean that I'm willing to expend even a modicum of my time or energy on some jackass from the interwebs.


But it's easy, so you should have no problem doing it for me.

Would I have a "problem" doing it? Would it be difficult? No. Do I particularly want to, at all? No. Ochains are easy compared to nearly all previous Endgame content, and they're practically given away for the massive boost they offer, but they are not free, and they are not instant. If you want the best gear in the game to pop up in the armory crate next to Joachim, go suggest that to the Devs and leave the rest of us alone.


Putting aside the question of the difficulty of getting an Ochain...

It's not fun! snip

If you don't want to do any legitimate endgame content, that's fine. But don't expect your Paladin to be useful on those oh so difficult rank missions and AF quests. Anything that you seem to be remotely interested in, a DD will always be able to handle better than a Paladin. Nothing will ever fix this. But hey, considering you don't seem to want to put forth any effort whatsoever into bettering yourself, and the content you want to play is so far behind everyone else, your Paladin may end up being useful when there aren't any half-competent DDs around to tank things.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

If I said that getting a decent headset for Ventrillo

Ventrillo isn't required to play the game. Like I said, there's more to life in FFXI than endgame.

If something is going to be required, then it should be easily attainable, to the point that you would have no real issue doing it for a complete stranger. Legwork should only be required for vanity gear and the like.


Just because I don't think something is remotely difficult, doesn't mean that it's free

This goes back to the recent discussion on getting relics in Dynamis: getting an Ochain is easy only if your time and effort is worthless.

At best, all you can say is that the time and effort of getting an Ochain is worth less to you than the Ochain itself, i. e. on a relative scale. You only say that because both the bragging rights and the ability to do Voidwatch, etc. are worth something to you. But if I'm the one that ends up with the Ochain, so that those incentives are taken away from you, suddenly the time and effort to get one is worth something to you.


they are not free, and they are not instant.

And yet they're still mandatory. That's the problem.


If you want the best gear in the game to pop up in the armory crate next to Joachim

I have no desire for the best gear in the game. I want to not need it.

So there's a contest between the Aegis and the Ochain over which is the best shield. What shield is in third place? Kaiser? Argos? Maybe Dagda's?

Does anybody even care about third place? Does it matter? Is it useful? Size 4 shields have always been little more than a fashion accessory (about as useful on PLD as they are on DRK), but now it seems even size 3 has fallen by the wayside as well. It's either relic, empyrean, or "level another job, n00b!"

And then there's the catch-22 of needing an Ochain for PLD to be useful in the process of getting an Ochain to begin with.


If you don't want to do any legitimate endgame content,

As opposed to illegitimate? Yours is the only proper way to enjoy the game?


Anything that you seem to be remotely interested in, a DD will always be able to handle better than a Paladin.

AND THAT'S THE FREAKING PROBLEM, GENIUS!

(Maybe I should bump up the font size on that one...)

[Greatguardian]

You're oblivious. Paladin is only really useful on endgame content. This will always be true, simply due to the nature of Paladin. It is a job with a lot of defensive utility and not so hot offensive utility. Know what the problem for you is? Any good DD is going to have enough defensive power to tank any of the rank missions or story quests that you want to do, while putting out much more firepower than a Paladin.

I don't care if you don't want to do Endgame, but straight up you'll never find Paladin more useful than a DD for what you're interested in. Ever. Bitch and moan all you want about it, no one really cares because it's a matter that cannot fundamentally be solved without massive nerfs to every other job in the game.

Ochain should be required for high-tier Endgame. Don't want to do Endgame? You don't need an Ochain. You won't be useful, but you won't need an Ochain either.

As for "bragging rights", I don't give a crap. Does being willing to make an Ochain for myself or my friends and not for some random obnoxious stranger on the internet make me selfish? Uh, sure. Why the heck not. Does being willing to buy my girlfriend dinner but not some jackass in the restaurant who demands that I pay for his meal make me selfish? Why the heck not. I owe you absolutely nothing. Go direct your jealous rage elsewhere and come back when you have something meaningful to contribute to the conversation.

[AldielQuetz]

Paladin just is not receiving the same level of thoughtful care that other jobs are. In the last 2 level increases all PLD received was Sepulchre, which is highly situational and 2 spells, Enlight and Protect V. Face the facts, we are getting overlooked and we need to be heard! We demand a new spell if a job like DRK, the tails to our heads of the coin is receiving FOUR new spells? Right? No job traits, no nothing, except talk of balance. Balance is when you increase the damage output of all jobs by a factor of let's say 2, you thusly increase the enmity holding power of the ONLY job specifically DESIGNED from DAY ONE to tank, by the same factor.

Give us some spells! Give us some traits! DO NOT sit on your hands and mumble once again this same retoric of balance instead of taking action. Bolster our prowess as defenders of the realm, give us the tools to be just as impressive tanks as you have given warrior to be fighters or black mages to be spellcasters. At least make an effort please Camate, we deserve to see the end of this tale in armored glory just as the other jobs will.

[DebbieGibson]

Paladin just is not receiving the same level of thoughtful care that other jobs are. In the last 2 level increases all PLD received was Sepulchre, which is highly situational and 2 spells, Enlight and Protect V. Face the facts, we are getting overlooked and we need to be heard! We demand a new spell if a job like DRK, the tails to our heads of the coin is receiving FOUR new spells? Right? No job traits, no nothing, except talk of balance. Balance is when you increase the damage output of all jobs by a factor of let's say 2, you thusly increase the enmity holding power of the ONLY job specifically DESIGNED from DAY ONE to tank, by the same factor.

Give us some spells! Give us some traits! DO NOT sit on your hands and mumble once again this same retoric of balance instead of taking action. Bolster our prowess as defenders of the realm, give us the tools to be just as impressive tanks as you have given warrior to be fighters or black mages to be spellcasters. At least make an effort please Camate, we deserve to see the end of this tale in armored glory just as the other jobs will.

Paladin is a great tank, what are you talking about?

[Economizer]

Divine Emblem got a massive boost back in July. It might only be once every ten minutes, but being able to do 7k damage in Abyssea without having any super special gear is pretty amazing.

[AldielQuetz]

Let's compare, to demonstrate what it is that I am talking about Debbie. Warrior has received a retroactive trait with multiple Tiers in Fencer, it received shield mastery and shield defense bonus and defense bonus II, it received critical attack bonus 1 and 2 and in the same time, all PLD got was shield defense bonus and critical defense bonus.

What I am asking for is that the same level of refinement be applied to all jobs, that not only is game balance preserved through opinion but also through equally perfecting and improving all jobs through the implementation of more retroactively applied job traits such as Fencer.

And yea, doing 3-4k every 10 minutes is fine, divine emblem is fine, but being skipped over for creative and completely new spells is unacceptable. And all I am asking for is the same attention to detail be applied to PLD as is WAR.

[DebbieGibson]

Let's compare, to demonstrate what it is that I am talking about Debbie. Warrior has received a retroactive trait with multiple Tiers in Fencer, it received shield mastery and shield defense bonus and defense bonus II, it received critical attack bonus 1 and 2 and in the same time, all PLD got was shield defense bonus and critical defense bonus.

What I am asking for is that the same level of refinement be applied to all jobs, that not only is game balance preserved through opinion but also through equally perfecting and improving all jobs through the implementation of more retroactively applied job traits such as Fencer.

And yea, doing 3-4k every 10 minutes is fine, divine emblem is fine, but being skipped over for creative and completely new spells is unacceptable. And all I am asking for is the same attention to detail be applied to PLD as is WAR.

Perhaps SE doesn't think PLD needs anything more than shield defense bonus and critical defense bonus? I would say that's probably true if that's all they gave the job.

[AldielQuetz]

What needs to happen is, if every request we make is answered with "we cannot do this, it will effect game balance" then we must make requests which encourage greater game balance. This is our only logical recourse Debbie, plain and simple. If 9 out of 10 jobs with spells are getting a new and creative, interesting and cool new spell, I contend that job number 10, no matter what job that is, deserves the same effort on the part of the developers to be included. If the job were BLM I would be saying the same thing, why doesn't Job-X get a new spell too?

[DebbieGibson]

I feel sure pld will get some fun toys soon!

[AldielQuetz]

Ergo, then if all jobs are getting a new job ability but 1, then that job deserves one too. In this case, they didn't leave anyone out as far as job abilities if I recall correctly. Please remind me if I missed one, because that would only help my cause. But the simple fact that in the case of job abilities they left no job behind, then why not in spells?

The same goes for job traits, WAR has a single handed weapon trait retroactively added and rarely if ever uses a singular 1handed weapon. Why? To encourage PLDs to sub WAR. Then why not just give the only job in the game that consistently uses only 1 single handed weapon this trait? The answer was that SE cannot give PLD any offensive traits yet WAR received Shield Mastery and Shield Defense Bonus, there must be a way to resolve this dichotomy, this duplicitous mind which can give defensive traits to offensive jobs but cannot give offensive traits to defensive ones.

There must be balance correct? Where is it?

[AldielQuetz]

Let's hope so Debbie! We need help, we need the same level of commitment by SE to our job as I see others receiving.

[Karbuncle]

PLD is quite the amazing tank, Problem is most people complaining its not are (Forgive me) Probably either gimp, or haven't seen this game outside of Abyssea. Not sure why GG is being chastised here when everything he said so far has been 100% Accurate.

To the Taru-Faced fella whining about Empyreans. GG Is right, Comparatively to Relics, Mythics, and some things in this game... Empyrean weapons are quite easy. They, like most things worth your effort, take time and patience. You using "THEN WHY WONT YOU GET ME ONE LOL" as an argument is stupid and childish, and just goes to show you have absolutely no legitimate complaint because you result to arguments like that.

He explained it well, I'll explain it better, Empyreans are Easy to get, But that doesn't mean he has to go around giving people them. Its his time, and you aren't worth it. In the same light, Some high-CEO might tell you making money is easy, Is he going to hand you a few mil? No, Earn it yourself you lazy bumb < is likely the response you'll get.

He's also right in saying Enmity has never been the Problem with PLD, when people find out a mob can be tanked by a DD, they'll take the DD. The solution is not nerfing DD, its making enemies strong enough that PLD is actually worth bringing. Voidwatch is doing that, and it'll continue doing it I'm sure.

I'm not saying PLD doesn't need a buff, not saying that at all, Simply saying it has a niche, and you guys should realize that. PLD is wonderful on hard enemies, theres just so few of them right now they aren't shining as they once were. Give it time and PLD will naturally come back to the top once harder content is introduced.

PLD is a good job, and I'm sure it will get better in the future, like most jobs, it has a use now, but not a lot of people do it (Voidwatch) so you may not notice. But again I say, PLD will get its due in time.

[Andrien]

You're over looking the main problem and don't understand what he is trying to say. Yes PLD is a great tank, but this is the question. Do they get invited often? And, I mean often. Let it sink in for a while.

[Karbuncle]

You're over looking the main problem and don't understand what he is trying to say. Yes PLD is a great tank, but this is the question, do they get invited often? And, I mean often. Let it sink in for a while.

I'm not overlooking anything. I know very well why PLD doesn't get invited. I spelled it on in that post too, that is. PLD is only good on tough content, and there is very little tough content right now.

Once tougher content is released, in the very near future, They will get invited more often, You're all in a "End of the world" panic because PLD isn't useful in Abyssea, and the majority of you keep suggesting bonuses to enmity which will never ever help PLD.

Who cares if a PLD can absorb everyones enmity when, in Abyssea, where PLD has the biggest problem, No one needs that kind of control? Outside Abyssea on Voidwatch PLD doesn't need that sort of buff either, Its Enmity control is fine.

If anything one of my favorite ideas is giving PLD some sort of Resistance to Hate Resets.

If you're going to panic over this make the suggestions actually go toward helping PLD, and that would be giving them more offensive skills, which SE said "no" too, the only other option is to release much harder content.

PLD will never be wanted for easier content where DD's can tank unless PLD can suddenly put out the damage of those DD, and since SE Said "no" to that, Again i say, the only solution is content difficult enough to require a PLD.

Edit: Anyway I'm going to make my exit from this convo, Was only trying to show GG I agree with him and he's not alone. He knows this now, My work is done. I hope you guys get the buff you're wanting, Judging by the requests in this thread, it'll be as useful as Temper!

Goodluck :)!

[DebbieGibson]

You're over looking the main problem and don't understand what he is trying to say. Yes PLD is a great tank, but this is the question. Do they get invited often? And, I mean often. Let it sink in for a while.

Join a linkshell.

[Andrien]

@ Debbie. I swear all you do is troll Debbie. I'm an Almace PLD, BLU and working my way through Ochain. So, please stop your arrogance. FYI, I go BLU for events because it is much more useful. Nobody brings PLD or even asks.

@ Karbuncle. Never said I'm in panic. I said you're over looking the problem. To be more clear its the issue with the taru and Ochain argument. It shouldn't be the holy grail for invites imo. I consider it a tool to make things easy.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

PLD is quite the amazing tank, Problem is most people complaining its not are (Forgive me) Probably either gimp, or haven't seen this game outside of Abyssea.

The problem is that tanking in and of itself is useless. Attack is far more valuable a trait than defense, in just about every situation.

What would you rather have, an alliance of 18 PLDs, or 18 MNKs?


Not sure why GG is being chastised here when everything he said so far has been 100% Accurate.

Because he's trolling and looking for an argument, for the most part. He comes into a thread about the problems with PLD to tell them there are no problems, and then wonder out loud why people disagree with him. But that's all in the past now for me.


Comparatively to Relics, Mythics, and some things in this game... Empyrean weapons are quite easy.

Note you used the word "comparatively." Relative =/= absolute.


like most things worth your effort,

"Worth" is another relative concept. It is worth it to you.



You using "THEN WHY WONT YOU GET ME ONE LOL" as an argument is stupid and childish

It was an attempt to demonstrate that the effort to get one is worth more than he is giving credit. He's not even on my server, and I have friends/minions who would probably get me one if I asked.

If you want to talk literally, I wouldn't want to go through the process even with help and/or someone "doing it for" me. I view the entire process as not being fun, period.

Getting to Jeuno at level 20 is easy. I recognize it is easy. I will also volunteer my own time and effort to escort a level 20 job to Jeuno, even though I get absolutely nothing out of the trip. I'd even do it level sync'd to 20. Something that is truly "easy" and "near effortless" (again, on absolute terms, not "relative to an Aegis") is something you'd have no qualms at doing again for someone else. If it costs so little time and effort, what's stopping you from spending that time and effort on a stranger's behalf?


Its his time, and you aren't worth it.

If I have to be "worth it," then the time and effort must be "worth" something, mustn't it?


making enemies strong enough that PLD is actually worth bringing. Voidwatch is doing that, and it'll continue doing it I'm sure.

And it doesn't matter that I have less desire to do Voidwatch than I do to make an Ochain?


Simply saying it has a niche, and you guys should realize that.

We do. The niche is too small. Especially when most other jobs don't have to limit themselves to "niche" content.


PLD is wonderful on hard enemies, theres just so few of them right now they aren't shining as they once were. Give it time and PLD will naturally come back to the top once harder content is introduced.

It never has been "on the top." Before Abyssea, a PLD either had an Aegis, or came as a different job. PLD has been practically useless in any and all group content past level 70. No HNMs, no sky gods, no Salvage, no Nyzul, not even a merit points party.


But again I say, PLD will get its due in time.

Yeah, we'll get a buff right around the time Utsusemi: San comes out.

[AldielQuetz]

Why should a job require a relic/mythic/empyrean to be useful? WAR is useful without one, so is BLM, the argument that every PLD should go get a specific piece of gear to be useful would be like making leveling woodworking to 100 so you can adequately make your own shihei a requirement of being a NIN of any worth at 90. It isn't necessary to have a r/m/e to create balance either. PLD can be given a few offensive traits just like MNK has counter, SAM has 3rd eye, and WAR has Defense Bonus I and II, Shield Mastery, and Shield Defense Bonus. It will not break the game to give PLD the extra boost it needs to be worthwhile in Abyssea.

Tl;dr. SE stop being afraid to actually be fair and balance the game. Requiring a relic/etc/etc is not fair when other jobs keep getting refined and improved without the need for one.

Thank you!

[Tsuneo]

The problem is that tanking in and of itself is useless. Attack is far more valuable a trait than defense, in just about every situation.

What would you rather have, an alliance of 18 PLDs, or 18 MNKs

I don't know what you're going on about. Tanking is needed when a real challenge presents itself. I suppose you're so used to the game on easy mode that you forgot that things can be hard. I personally would rather have a situation where PLD is needed. Even if that situation meant slower kills than things on easy mode, I would prefer it because easy mode is boring.

[SpankWustler]

Because he's trolling and looking for an argument, for the most part. He comes into a thread about the problems with PLD to tell them there are no problems, and then wonder out loud why people disagree with him. But that's all in the past now for me.

I'm not sure why you consider correcting people who don't understand something to be trolling. Paladin's main problem is that it's only useful for tanking difficult monsters. One solution that many people, including GreatGuardian, suggest is the implementation of more hard monsters. I really like this solution, since those monsters are fun for the whole family.

Giving Paladin a lot of stuff to mess with enmity won't make it any better for situations with not-so-hard monsters, yet it seems like every other thing mentioned in relation to Paladin is "Make the monster hate me more! Make it hate me as though I left that monster for it's best friend and never returned it's vinyl LP of Emergency & I! Make it hate me so much that it doesn't drop anything just to spite me!"

Defensive abilities or traits would be nice for the situations in which Paladin is currently useful. Offensive and healing/support abilities or traits would be nice for situations in which Paladin is not currently useful. Enmity-related abilities and traits wouldn't be good for much of anything.

SE has ruled out a significant increase in offensive ability, so I'm not sure what options are left for improving Paladin in situations outside of it's niche, but more stuff to gain more enmity won't change anything for anybody. Or rather, it won't change anything for anybody who puts effort into the job and it won't change anything for the better.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

(...) when a real challenge presents itself (...) I personally would rather (...) I would prefer (...)

"PLD is only good in X content. I like X content. What's your problem? You should totally like the same things I like!"

I'm tired of this thread.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because all jobs should be useful in all content. PUP BST COR and DNC would like to have a word with you about that.

[AldielQuetz]

It would be really good to keep the focus on PLD instead of derailing the thread with idle commentary every other post guys.... I don't go into the WHM and RDM forum to argue with your desires.

PLD needs a spell this update and deserves a few tweaks, that's it. It's been neglected, the end.

[saevel]

Definitely give PLD +enmity bonus traits, make it tiered starting at 35/45 and working their way up.
Give Flash II, modify Cover to always have an effect provide the target is within 10 feet of you.
Give paladin provoke or another JA with similar effect, instant use and low recast timer.

[AldielQuetz]

Flash II >>>> Brilliant, more of this, with a side of this, for the win! Drain and Drain II, Flash and Flash II

Vote YES! For proposition 1337: Make a Paladin Smile!

[Morwy]

Hmmm Flash II /o/ with a one minute recast time ? :D
I'd love to see some reduction on Divine Emblem, i think someone had that idea at some point anyway.

[SpankWustler]

Honest question: What do you guys hope to accomplish by having significantly more enmity as Paladin?

I'm not trying to mess with anybody. I'm truly curious.

[Rorrick]

Considering Paladin's utility is and always will be prime on the hardest content in the game, everyone should have an Ultimate-class weapon or shield on it anyways. Paladin will never, ever be a casual content job. Sorry.

Edit: That said, Empyreans are stupid easy. Souls are annoying, and the shield/harp Abyssea trials are way worse than weapon Abyssea trials (I'd think because they bypass the crappy NM/VNM portions), but even those are being buffed next update. I dare say you can get over it if you actually want to play the job well.

I take mild offense to insinuating that laziness is the reason I lack Ochain. Expecting me to devote a week of my life to something that ultimately doesn't really fix the problem with Paladin is pretty bold, but to imply that my lack of one is due to laziness or ineptitude is ridiculous.

Getting online for an hour every other day to fulfil my linkshell commitments is pretty easy. Setting aside three or four hours a night every day for a month is an unreasonable expectation of any player. If you can devote than kind of time on a consistent basis, great, but don't assume that everyone else can, or should be required to in order to even approach usability. By myself, I can carry around two T3s with myself (on MNK, how ironic) and my WHM mule. T2 repops take anywhere from 10-15 minutes, on top of the three or four it takes me to kill the thing. Assuming I get every claim every ten minutes and kill in three (a pretty unfair hypothetical, because there's no way I'm getting every claim the moment the window it open, and for some reason people on Sylph don't like letting you pop just to get a conversion), and I get a conversion every time, that's eleven hours for 50 T3s (and in my experience, the double drop rate is less than that) under perfect conditions, and ignoring the time it actually takes to kill the T3 itself (I tend to stick to Brulo, as I've found he's not as heavily camped). For all intents and purposes, it'll take me about a month on my own just to finish the souls. Also consider I don't have WAR levelled (are you going to tell me to level, skill-up, and gear it now?), so I'd be farming plates on Paladin, which would probably take me another month's worth of weekends. I've got no experience with Azdaja, so you can fill that blank in on your own.

While I do all that, I'm not progressing with anything else in the game. And what's the reward? An item that doesn't solve Paladin's problem. Ochain is handy the first few times, until you figure out the gimmicks. Then you can adapt your strategy for damage dealing tanks to kill the enemy faster with minimal increase in risk. Damage dealers have potent damage mitigation at their disposal in addition to their often overwhelming offense. Eventually, this cycle of familiarity results in an environment where Paladin serves no purpose. This is the issue. Paladin contributes nothing in that environment, and this needs to be addressed.

If the above is what you consider an acceptable situation for a casual player to find themselves in (I think even expecting them to have WHM mules to be hilariously presumptuous), then fine, you and I are clearly using different lexicons. But don't have the audacity to assume that something is unattainable to me because I'm lazy.


Edit: Just to reiterate, enmity is a secondary issue. Addressing it and nothing else does not fix Paladin.

[Hayward]

I'll say it again: Requiring a Paladin to have both an Almace and Ochain only proves there is something seriously wrong with the job. S-E 's attempt at pandering to endgamers with these absurd Empyrean trials has done nothing to attract casual gamers who, more than likely, want nothing to do with endgame linkshells and the odious politics that accompany them. Laziness or whatever other talking points people spout onto these threads have nothing to do with the real problem, a job that is not truly balanced.

Game balance seems only to be a problem with certain jobs that want to play and enjoy the game as much as those who mindlessly gravitate toward the bandwagon jobs (these people know who they are). What, in fact, is so wrong about giving Paladins a bit more punch offensively? What would be so overpowered about letting paladins do their job without having to almost literally sell their souls (i.e. join an endgame LS) for two Empyrean items that won't even guarantee their usefulness?

S-E knows the answer to this situation. Let's see if they stop listening to the wrong people long enough to put it into action.

[DebbieGibson]

How would you balance pld so that it would be useful vs a monster that you can tank with sam or monk?

[Tsuneo]

How would you balance pld so that it would be useful vs a monster that you can tank with sam or monk?
You can't without increasing the offensive capabilities of PLD which SE said they weren't going to do. People are deluded to think that some magical enmity buff will solve all their problems, but they would be in the same situation of not being needed.

[Ashael]

If people are really camping every zone for T3 pops already, then that really sucks and I can sympathize for you. There's not much that can be done about that. At least they're throwing us a pseudo-bone and increasing the Abyssite upgrade rates next update.
This is my situation. I've run in to an odd day here and there where none are being camped, and I can work on getting at least 2 zones worth of T3s on me and my mule. But most weekdays and weekends, all three zones have been camped to hell and high water. Increasing the upgrade rate won't help as much as reducing the respawn timers or increasing the number of fricking T2 mobs would.


You can't without increasing the offensive capabilities of PLD which SE said they weren't going to do. People are deluded to think that some magical enmity buff will solve all their problems, but they would be in the same situation of not being needed.
They've said they won't do the offensive route. So I say fine, give us overpowered defensive trait. Native resistance to damage like Avatars that stacks with PDT and MDT gear. PLD got somewhat screwed in that one of the useful things SE could have adjusted for us, became tied in with Burtgang and Aegis. Now they only want those two items to exceed the 50% cap.
When folks are commenting on the fact that an offensive job got buffs to both offense and defense (WAR), they don't mention Retaliation. I've got a WAR, and giving a job with a big ol' 2 handed weapon an ability that a) lets them attack monsters every time they're attacked with a chance to crit and b) gives TP is a wicked combo for any job that tanks.
Then you compare it to Reprisal... Reprisal really needs it's equation adjusted. Damage adjusted to 7-10 times, resist rate adjusted to be less than half of what it is now on hard stuff. It's not like PLD has overpowering TP moves to begin with, so why not have Reprisal grant Shield Mastery +3-5. While it's active the PLDs just accumulating TP.
I would prefer Atonement gets rebuffed, like double damage or triple damage, but if they don't want to do that, then just remove all abilities for Monsters to resist it.
I'd still prefer some form of support function that's actually useable in small scale stuff. Regen or Coverga or granting a defense bonus (useful bonus, not Defense, but like PDT or MDT or Rampart SS) to party members. Something like Holy Circle or go back to good ol' 2E AD&D and gimme an Aura of Protection or something. Just innate, always active Sphere that reduces certain critters, let's say Demons, Dragons and Undead, gives them a -X to Acc/att/defense and gives party members + to Def/Hp/Regen or something.

Give us my Reprisal Shield Mastery, and then give us a short recast ability that uses like 20TP to make the next Cure spell cost half MP and transfer X CE from target to the PLD and is allowed to exceed the hate cap with CE.

Shorten Divine Emblem recast, and give PLD some unique stuff going with Holy, Holy II, Banish III and IV. Like maybe a Drain II affect to hate with Holy II? Gains you that Enmity from the spell and allows you to exceed the hate cap.

I wanna run rampant like I can on WAR!


Because all jobs should be useful in all content. PUP BST COR and DNC would like to have a word with you about that.
Bad choices there really, COR is useful in all situations. It suffers from the not being necessary in small man operations, but it's not useless.
PUP, dunno, sure seems to be a lot of whining coming from the PUP forums.
BST is fine at the moment really useful in low man, useful in alliance fights.
DNC is fine. They're useful on lowman situations and can slowlo lots of mobs. Their tied waltz timer makes them not so hot as true healers when the damage is flying at the tank.

[AldielQuetz]

I agree with Hayward and Tsuneo, SE must change it's tune about upping PLD dps!

Why?

Because the offensive jobs are all given some kind of damage mitigation, either through job traits like WAR and Defense Bonus I and II, Shield Mastery, and Shiled Defense Bonus(not to mention SE you created Fencer so their damage wouldn't be completely gimped 1 handed) or through job abilities like Third Eye and Perfect counter.

The point is, if you can give purely offensive jobs a defensive trait/ability can't you please throw us a bone and give us a few offensive ones? Help us out Camate, please sir, we are only asking for balance, fairness and the same thoughtfulness as the offensive jobs receive.

Thank you!!!!

[Karbuncle]

I agree with Hayward and Tsuneo, SE must change it's tune about upping PLD dps!

Why?

Because the offensive jobs are all given some kind of damage mitigation, either through job traits like WAR and Defense Bonus I and II, Shield Mastery, and Shiled Defense Bonus(not to mention SE you created Fencer so their damage wouldn't be completely gimped 1 handed) or through job abilities like Third Eye and Perfect counter.

The point is, if you can give purely offensive jobs a defensive trait/ability can't you please throw us a bone and give us a few offensive ones? Help us out Camate, please sir, we are only asking for balance, fairness and the same thoughtfulness as the offensive jobs receive.

Thank you!!!!

I agree.

You know, Lets look at some of the things FFXIV added for tanks jobs!

----------------------------------
Aegis Boon - Recovers a portion of your HP from a successful shield block.
Reworked for FFXI:

Aegis Boon
Lv.96
Recast:5
Dur:3min
Recovers 25% of damage taken from Shield Blocks. (does not stack with Reprisal)

A defensive ability that helps PLD. Its defensive, but still useful.


---------------------------------------------------

Theres another, I forget its name, its a special WS you can only use after a Shield block, So instead of it being a WS...

Job Trait:
Occasionally Attacks After a Shield block. (Think "Retaliation" after Shield Block, You take damage, But attack after, getting TP)
Lv.35PLD (50/65/80/99 get upgrades to this)
Base rate 15%, +5% Each after for a total of 35% Chance to "Retaliate" on Shield Blocks. Can be enhanced through gear.


This would enhance the Defensive aspect of the job (Shield Block) while enhancing its offense. I don't think thats too far fetched of an Idea. It'd be a small step, but it'd help their TP Gain and add a bit of extra damage.

[AldielQuetz]

I like those Karbuncle! Help us out Camate! Hookitup!

[Karbuncle]

I like those Karbuncle! Help us out Camate! Hookitup!

Why thank you. I played FFXIV for a short while, because a friend showed me it (and its free), and some of the abilities in that game were really well thought out and could be adapted to FFXI with little effort and tweaking.

I think those two i listed we're the best of the two i saw that could be easily converted to a PLD Ability/Trait!

[Cursed]

For PLD to be able to play a beneficial role to any party/alliance the job needs to bring something to the table in all situations.
GG was right by asserting that PLD has only ever been used for content that new/hard/specific.
Outside the above content, PLD has no special role to play.

Problem: PLD is not needed in 95%+ of the game.
Reason: Does not do anything better than other jobs in that 95% of the game.
Concerns: Adding anymore defensive or offensive ability to PLD will in effect make it a stand-alone one man army.
Solution: Grant PLD abilities/traits that enhance other jobs while not overpowering itself.
How: Auras - Reflect, Resist death, PDT/MDT Auras, regain, refresh, regen, max HP +, save tp, conserve tp, store tp, MAB, etc etc
Result: Having a PLD to tank also means you get some nice benefits that don't require singing/casting. Don't make them as potent as corsair rolls or bard songs, but on at the least the same level as Avatar Blood Pact Wards.

EDIT:

Make the potency of the Auras increase the more people there are in pt/alliance, like company sword's damage.

Make certain Auras like Reflect or resist death % values increase the more dmg the alliance takes from nukes or the more people that die from death.

there's just a million and one ways SE could make PLD useful while retaining its official position as the the main tank of the game without making it capable of soloing AV or PW.

[DebbieGibson]

You can't without increasing the offensive capabilities of PLD which SE said they weren't going to do. People are deluded to think that some magical enmity buff will solve all their problems, but they would be in the same situation of not being needed.

And to carry this further, exactly how much damage would pld have to be capable of before you would leave war or mnk in the mh?

[SpankWustler]

Job Trait:
Occasionally Attacks After a Shield block. (Think "Retaliation" after Shield Block, You take damage, But attack after, getting TP)
Lv.35PLD (50/65/80/99 get upgrades to this)
Base rate 15%, +5% Each after for a total of 35% Chance to "Retaliate" on Shield Blocks. Can be enhanced through gear.


This would be nice, and even with Ochain, I don't think it would be close enough to Retaliation for anyone to complain.

I hope SE would be inclined to add this sort of "offensive" ability to Paladin, at least. Since it depends on a defensive skill and requires the Paladin to be the target of a monster, it's obviously in a different vein than the offensive abilities of most jobs.

[Cursed]

Rivalry
Lv 85 PLD Job trait
Your melee attack damage, weaponskill damage & accuracy are effected by that of your party members.

The more damage your party/alliance members dish out, the higher your damage rises.
Keep the benefits and bonus to 2/3 of the highest DD in party so no one can argue "why you bring a pld they suck"
Wont overpower Paladin in solo situations.


/thread.

[Tsuneo]

And to carry this further, exactly how much damage would pld have to be capable of before you would leave war or mnk in the mh?
PLD would obviously need to be at least on par with those jobs for it to replace them which is a ridiculous idea in itself.

[DebbieGibson]

I wonder if we had had these forums back at 75 cap, would these same PLDs be here complaining that they never get invited to merit parties and that's a problem that SE needs to fix.

[Cursed]

I wonder if we had had these forums back at 75 cap, would these same PLDs be here complaining that they never get invited to merit parties and that's a problem that SE needs to fix.

Merit parties weren't really events. PLDs had other ways of getting their last 5 levels for 70-75 (campaign, fov).
And yes, just because PLDs had alternative options for getting exp, doesn't mean SE shouldn't have provided them with something unique/useful to allow them to be invited to merit parties.
Same applies to the poor blms that had to lvl 50-75 solo.

[AldielQuetz]

How about 2 stances:

Renegade: Locks MP and MP recovery, cannot cast spells of any kind. Max HP Boost, STR boost, attack speed boost. Recast 5 mins, Duration 1 hour.

Cavalier: Reduces damage taken by 15%, enmity bonus on normal melee attacks, Max MP Boost.
Recast 5 mins, Duration 1 hour.

How's that look? Kinda like a trade-off like WAR gets from Defender/Berzerk? Or like Hasso/Seigen?
Why the timers like that you ask? I'll tell you! Same reasoning as Velocity Shot, so that the PLD can't just bounce back and forth at will, you have the chance to switch in oshi- situations but you can't just switch right back, same with RNG you can't Kraken Club up some TP pop on Velocity Shot and pop it back off to get TP again, there has to be a catch.

Please give us more than Palisade SE m(_ _)m. Don't we merit the work just like other jobs or do we miss out because there's not enough hours to go around to pay the programmers and PLD was last on the list?

Camate just look at the amount of effort that goes into revamping other jobs, does it make sense that as PLDs we must "fix" our damn selves and get an ochain and Almace? No, that's not the answer you give other jobs.

Help us, please.... Help us.

[Alerith]

Make a stance that impacts your stats based on a target job in your party.

Example:

Comrade in Arms (Lvl. 96) [Target one ally, party only]
Recast: 2 minute.
Duration: 3 minutes.

Call upon your comrades for support. Support varies with target job.

WAR - Increases your Attack by a large amount. Increases Double Attack rate.
WHM - Increases your Healing Magic Potency and Magic Defense.
BLM - Increases Magic Accuracy and Magic Attack.
RDM - Enhancing magic on the RDM in the party is shared with you. (All enhancements cast onto the RDM while the ability is active will apply them to the PLD as well.)
SAM - 2 TP/tick Regain.
MNK - Increases your Vitality and Strength.
DRK - Increases your resistance to Darkness.
BRD - 1 MP/tick Refresh.
COR - 3 HP/tick Regen.
BLU - Increases weaponskill, skillchain and magic burst damage.
NIN - The effects of "Utsusemi" on the ninja in your party are shared with you. (You get hit, it misses, they lose a shadow.)
THF - Any party member behind you has a minor Trick Attack effect applied to their attacks. (half enmity transfer.)
BST - The Beastmaster can use "Snarl" and "Reward" on the Paladin.
RNG - The effects from status bolts/arrows are also applied to the Paladin. (Bloody Bolts for example.)
DRG - Increases Accuracy by a large amount.
SMN - The PLD gains Avatar level magic resistance. Element varies with current active avatar.
PUP - Allows Role Reversal, Ventriloquy and Tactical Switch to apply to the PLD instead of the PUP.
DNC - Fan Dance and Saber Dance effects on a DNC in your party will also apply to your PLD.
SCH - Enhances Magic Defense and Magic Accuracy
PLD - Doubles your defense and magic defense.

Note: All bonuses are multiplied by the number of those jobs in your party. (If you have 3 WAR, the effect would bethreefold.)

[AldielQuetz]

That would be cool, adapt or perish! I hope your idea gets read Alerith^^

I also am extremely fond of the idea of a new type of cure spell that is PLD only that cures 1k HP max but in 250 or 333 HP increments. With each successive use, it could have a cumulative enmity effect, similar to the BLM ability to use -ja type spells.

We could even call it Cureja, perhaps have Cureja I, II and III? They wouldn't stack, because that would be over powered but when used in succession they would enhance enmity. Cureja I at 90, II at 95 and III at 99.

New merit abilities/traits:

Galavant

Increases enmity and attack speed while using Palisade. Each additional merit increases enmity by 10 and attack speed by 2 for a maximum of + 50 enmity and + 10% job ability haste.

Palisade

Increase the duration of Palisade by 10 seconds. Maximum of 50 seconds.

Divine Emblem

Reduce recast by 1 minute. Maximum reduction 5 minutes.

Enlight

Add an enhances attack speed trait to Enlight. Each additional merit increases potency by 1%. Maximum of 5%.

Shieldiscus

Delivers a 5 fold attack, damage based on enmity. Recast 20 minutes. Each additional merit reduces recast by 2 minutes and 30 seconds. (animated like a 5 pointed star)

Grapple

Shield lock with an enemy. Unable to block with a shield but the target cannot break free for 30 seconds. Recast 5 minutes. Each additional merit reduces recast by 30 seconds and increases duration by 5 seconds.

Flail

Reduces delay to 1 handed weapons to 0, increases accuracy by 10, reduces TP gain to 0. Duration 30 seconds. Recast 20 minutes. Each additional merit reduces recast by 2 minutes and 30 seconds and increases accuracy by 5.

Light Magus

Job Trait: Increases cure potency, magic attack bonus and enmity from light based magic of all kinds. Each merit increases cure potency by 3%, magic attack bonus by 5% and enmity increase by 2.

Healing Soul

Job Trait: 5% of HP cured is converted into MP. Increase effect by 5% per additional merit.

Deo Gloria

Job Trait: 3% of damage taken is converted into MP. Increase effect by 3% each additional merit.

Rend

Job trait: After a successful shield block, chance to counterattack. Each merit increases this effect by 5%

Just a few ideas I had before bed, I hope Camate sees how passionate we are about this job. God bless and good night my brethren!

[AldielQuetz]

And just incase you wondered "Where'd this guy come from posting a mile a minute out of nowhere?"

I always wanted to post by I never had my key fob on me, but now I'm making a point to have it with me so I can be a part of making PLD the best it can be, it's my favorite job and I've been playing it since '03 so this matters.... A LOT to me. Good night all.

[gigasnail]

if they are not going to raise the hate ceiling (which wouldn't help anyone anyway), an easy enough fix for pld would be to give them a medium range (or keyed to alliance/party) rapid enmity decay aura (but not effecting themselves), giving dd and healers a higher than normal volatile enmity decay.

trick would be to balance it to where a buffed DD going all out would have positive enmity gain, while holding back somewhat would allow the pld to hold aggro as long as they maintained a high level of activity (cures, enm generating abilities, damage output). tie it to gear/merits so that it would require a fully merited and geared pld to tank for fully merited/geared DD.

[wolfshadow]

Interesting suggestions >.>

[AldielQuetz]

It just dawned on me, as well as being given our defensive job traits... WAR also has not 1 BUT 2 entirely DEFENSIVE stances. Um... And I know Defender isn't all that great but you got it RIGHT Devs when you made Retaliation, so why can't PLD at least get a defensive stance? Or 1 defensive one and one more aggressive one? We shouldn't be required to sub 1 particular job in order to "be made whole again".

Just because PLD is half WAR doesn't mean that we should be job locked to receive the tools we need, no other job is treated this way.

I once agreed that PLD did not need or warrant it's own Provoke-type Job Ability, but I recant. If PLD is supposed to be a tank then give it what a tank needs, that's not broken, it's fair.

The balance of the game cannot be that fragile that 1 job being able to do what it was designed to do, with a variety of subs would destroy it.

PLD needs serious attention.

[Cursed]

if they are not going to raise the hate ceiling (which wouldn't help anyone anyway), an easy enough fix for pld would be to give them a medium range (or keyed to alliance/party) rapid enmity decay aura (but not effecting themselves), giving dd and healers a higher than normal volatile enmity decay.

trick would be to balance it to where a buffed DD going all out would have positive enmity gain, while holding back somewhat would allow the pld to hold aggro as long as they maintained a high level of activity (cures, enm generating abilities, damage output). tie it to gear/merits so that it would require a fully merited and geared pld to tank for fully merited/geared DD.

everything on this page has been suggested before.
Including Aleriths.

[DebbieGibson]

If PLD is supposed to be a tank then give it what a tank needs

something to tank?

[AldielQuetz]

Um not everything. Let's not use rash generalizations please.@ Cursed

And to be honest, there does need to be some reworking/rethinking of the hate mechanics.

Here's why!

The game at 75 cap, when that was something new, not something stagnant, had a hate ceiling that a DD even with the best gear just touched the surface of right before they would get eaten, since the WHM was focused on the, you guessed it, the PLD. The one job that could continue to keep pushing his/her hate to the cap and regain it even when a DD surged in damage output.

Then comes the 2hander update, throw in some salvage gear, add a little more spells to support and BOOM DDs are really making it hard to hold hate BUT we had atonement(simplest fix for PLD is the elephant in the room) so it's still relatively easy to hold hate except for in Zerg situations.

Now, add the remaining 24 levels of the games already sitting at peak armor, jobs... More attack and accuracy naturally from skill, more from innate STR DEX etc... And all of a sudden, what do we see? EVERYONE FLOATS TO THE TOP OF THE POOL, the deep end isn't so deep is it when you go from being 2 feet tall to 12 now is it? Like Liono in last weeks ThunderCats(you said HOoooooo in your head, you know you did). We need Panthro(AKA SE) to take the grate off the top so we don't drown in the mediocrity that has become known as...

PLD.

Help, please.. We're drowning in lamesauce.. Enhance us, improve us, just stop quoting the balance handbook and throw us the life preserver.

Thanks.

[SpankWustler]

If PLD is supposed to be a tank then give it what a tank needs, that's not broken, it's fair.


You'll be happy to know that more monsters who hit hard enough to make life unpleasant for melee jobs are coming up in the next tier of VoidWatch! As a bonus, some spawn weak minions over and over, so you might even get a chance to super-tank!

[Cursed]

i don't dispute PLD is in desperate need of some changes or the job will remain doomed to be used periodically around the release of new content, and then sent back to the eternal black depths of the MH once the SAM/WAR/MNK/NINs catch up.

and AldielQuetz - everything. Either on this thread, or another on the PLD forums, or on another site. E v e r y t h i n g that can be mentioned/suggested has already been put forward. these topics have been going on for 6 months at least.

[AldielQuetz]

How about being creative and talk about something you would like implemented? That would be great since calling other peoples thoughts unoriginal and regurgitated isn't helping us get where we need to be.

More ideas Cursed, that's what we need and a positive outlook!

Thanks

[Cursed]

I didn't call anyone's thoughts "unoriginal" or "regurgitated". Simply stating that there are 34 previous pages of posts and maybe even 35 other different "FIX PLD / the Plight of PLD" threads on the forum.

I think if SE don't get it by now, they never will.
PLD was horribly retarded from years 2003-2006sh - see terra staff PLD tanking.
It took them 3 years of PLD sucking absolute poopoo for them to "fix" PLD the first time round, it might take that long this time.

[Anucris]

As Someone who hasn't been a pld very long it's easy to see the flaws and perhaps find ways to fix them.

Sentinel should last 1 minute (or be reduced to 3 min recast) and freeze enmity from falling while allowing it to increase if need be.

Rampart should last at least 1 minute.

Fealty should last at least 2 minutes. So it's useful for more than 1 move. Should erase status effects already on

Pple say DMg is fine with almace but I don't have one yet. Perhaps a pld could receive a haste effect to an ability this could help with pld being so slow to deal much DMg. Such as 10% of tp consumed during chivalry. Caps at 20%. Again lower the flipping timer plz. Too much waiting on analogies with pld. Makes me miss my jumps on drg

Palisade could also act like a provoke.

Dev Said it would be boring if pld always held hate. But that's how we were supposed to play the game for the first 7-8 years. And isn't that the plds sole purpose.

[gigasnail]

yeah we know they've been mentioned before, in other threads, for years. that's the problem. any number of possible fixes for the system, none implemented.

[AldielQuetz]

We need some positive change implemented!

Help us out!

[Cursed]

<call> Camate - We've created so many threads about fixing PLD, we've suggested every possible idea. You and the Devs need to respond. This silence from SE doesn't help.

EDIT: Yes I know you've responded to the PLD ideas. However, the ideas you responded to were actually the worst. There are a lot of other ideas.

[Rorrick]

They'll get back to us once they're finished adding Warrior to the Creed set.

[Andrien]

They'll get back to us once they're finished adding Warrior to the Creed set.

This made me roflmao... seriously, true story.

[DebbieGibson]

What can you do to make pld more desirable than sam on something that can be tanked by sam?

1) Make having a pld do more damage to the mob compared to having a sam (very unlikely)

2) make the usage of rampart increase item droprate (very unlikely)

3) ? suggestions please

[Rorrick]

Make Cover a job trait. Hate resets are no longer an issue, enmity loss is no longer an issue, and even TP feed is no longer an issue, as you can just disengage tank. This would also allow Paladin to make use of what little offense it does bring to the table in the form of TP from shield blocks. This allows Paladin to absorb damage without forcing DDs to restrict their damage output on tougher enemies (the only place where having a Paladin to begin with is even remotely plausible).

The rebuttal of "we want you to have to balance enmity" floats with me about as well as the Titanic post Iceberg-lovemaking. There's already no reason for front-line jobs to control their enmity, since most of them are more than capable of tanking (while doing incredible damage. See the theme of inequality developing here?) everything to begin with. Having an enemy bounce all over the place does not add any tactical value to the game whatsoever, it offers instead the minor inconvenience of losing TP every so often.

Further, the development team contradicts itself with this argument, and we need only to look to the Manifesto for proof.

We respect the unselfish and bold nature of the paladin, so we plan on further developing their ability to maintain control of battles and keeping others out of harm's way, if only temporarily.

You want Paladin to control the battlefield, but you don't want it to always have the attention of the enemy? That makes no sense. At least if you reinvent Cover as a job trait you'd add some positional play back to the game. At the very least, you'd make Thief's life easier. It doesn't necessarily add desirability to Paladin, but at least I'd be getting some use out of my shield.

The development team's unwillingness to commit to any direction for Paladin is incredibly frustrating. They argue that throwing us an offensive bone would make us overpowered while simultaneously they consider how to enhance Seigan? Come on. Logically, the other way to make Paladin more desirable would be to stop giving defensive bonuses to every other job, enhance Paladin's own defense (there's a clear inequality between shield blocks, barring Ochain, and the uberness that is Counterstance, Utsusemi, and Seigan/Third Eye), and introduce some content that makes use of this mystical defensive advantage.

But, instead of considering either of these options (the only two options there are; more offense or more defense), they've chosen to try and see just how far they can push their own contradiction by adding more tools to "control" the battlefield, without actually giving us any more control, when the solution I proposed above (make Cover a job trait) would not only give us the control we deserve, but have zero impact on parties that choose not to bring a Paladin, all the while ignoring the 35 or so pages of feedback in this thread alone and leaving us in the dark. If the development team wishes to keep us forever bogged down in the mire of irrelevance, allow me to refund all the EXP I've put into Paladin and reallocate it to a job I will actually have occasion to play.

Camate, please address some of the feedback in this thread, instead of ignoring us or pulling ridiculous suggestions from the Japanese forums. We have legitimate ideas too.

[Cursed]

well said Rorrick. I second your sentiments.
The thing about PLD in particular, when it comes to job utility, is that it appeals to a lot of us.
Its not some wacky quirky job like PUP or BST or DNC. Its one of those jobs that has a huge amount of followers and fans.

Some people play THF because they like the idea,concept and traditional role it has played throughout FF games. Others like BLM and nuking. A great many of us feel that way about PLD. Its more than just tanking to us, its playing the role we would like to in a fantasy game.

But SE you have shat on it for too long. FFS fix the damn job.

[Alerith]

well said Rorrick. I second your sentiments.
The thing about PLD in particular, when it comes to job utility, is that it appeals to a lot of us.
Its not some wacky quirky job like PUP or BST or DNC. Its one of those jobs that has a huge amount of followers and fans.

Some people play THF because they like the idea,concept and traditional role it has played throughout FF games. Others like BLM and nuking. A great many of us feel that way about PLD. Its more than just tanking to us, its playing the role we would like to in a fantasy game.

But SE you have shat on it for too long. FFS fix the damn job.

It's as if you took my feelings and put them into words. It's for this reason that I will always play PLD. Because I enjoy it. Because it's my kind of job. It goes so far beyond tanking and endgame.

[AldielQuetz]

Bump

We need Defense Bonus switched out for a damage taken reduction trait, make it different than Def Bonus if you are worried about WAR getting 2 of them.

Give us some attention please!

[Anucris]

i agree with rorrick and cursed up there. also rorrick made a really good point about them not giving defensive buffs to other jobs. they could also, if they didnt want to change defense bonus to -DT, change defense to something more potent, its what pld has so make it good!

[AldielQuetz]

I support the above post.

Thank you!

[vausabant]

I have said before and i will say it again, yes SE you CAN raise the hate cap, but do it only for pld. So say the cap is 1000, simply make plds 1200, yes before everyone screams they will never loose hate thats broken, make it so after the pld has had above 1000 hate for like 30 secs the game forces his hate back down below 1k for atleast 10 secs. Its idea and imo a way to give pld back some ability to i dunno TANK

[Rorrick]

I have said before and i will say it again, yes SE you CAN raise the hate cap, but do it only for pld. So say the cap is 1000, simply make plds 1200, yes before everyone screams they will never loose hate thats broken, make it so after the pld has had above 1000 hate for like 30 secs the game forces his hate back down below 1k for atleast 10 secs. Its idea and imo a way to give pld back some ability to i dunno TANK

36 pages and you couldn't be bothered to read any of them?

Enmity is a secondary problem. Other jobs (MNK SAM NIN and any two-hander that goes /SAM) tank as well or better than Paladin, on top of doing an overwhelming amount of damage.

There's no point to bring Paladin anywhere, and raising the enmity cap is not going to change that.

[Greatguardian]

There's no point to bring Paladin anywhere

Very false. Voidwatch is a big deal, and it's only going to get bigger in a couple days with a massive influx of new fights, new armor, and badass new weapons. What tanks Voidwatch? Paladins.

The answer to Paladin's lack of popularity has always been content, and SE has delivered in full force.

[Rorrick]

Very false. Voidwatch is a big deal, and it's only going to get bigger in a couple days with a massive influx of new fights, new armor, and badass new weapons. What tanks Voidwatch? Paladins.

The answer to Paladin's lack of popularity has always been content, and SE has delivered in full force.

What tanks Voidwatch? Anyone with decent evasion, Seigan, and/or PDT/MDT sets. The only real advantage Paladin has over other jobs on the tier 4 NMs is Ochain/Aegis, and like I've told you a dozen or so times before, unless I''ll be finding one in my delivery box after a version update, that is not an acceptable solution.

No other job is forced to acquire a relic/mythic/Empyrean just to meet the threshold of usability, nevermind considering desirability. How easy or difficult it is to get is irrelevant.

[Greatguardian]

What tanks Voidwatch? Anyone with decent evasion, Seigan, and/or PDT/MDT sets. The only real advantage Paladin has over other jobs on the tier 4 NMs is Ochain/Aegis, and like I've told you a dozen or so times before, unless I''ll be finding one in my delivery box after a version update, that is not an acceptable solution.

No other job is forced to acquire a relic/mythic/Empyrean just to meet the threshold of usability, nevermind considering desirability. How easy or difficult it is to get is irrelevant.

I would never use most DD jobs without at least a WoE weapon, period. I would never use a White Mage without a Surya's+2, period. I would never use a Black Mage without at least one relevant Nuke staff, period. Thresholds of usability are player-defined for the most part.

The Dev team can NEVER cater to lowest common denominator bullshit the way you want them to because, no matter what, someone, somewhere, is going to be way better at this game than the lowest common denominator. If a full AF1 kite shield Tarutaru Paladin can tank Voidwatch and be "useful", a real Ochain/Aegis Paladin with maxed gear is going to be a demigod and the Devs will never allow that.

[Rorrick]

That's great that you're so picky about who you let Cure V bomb you, but Warriors can get by with Raging Rush, Monks can get by with Ascetic's Fury, NIN with Jin, THF with Evisceration, SAM with Gekko, DRG with Drakesbane, PUP with Stringing Pummel, et cetera. Paladin cannot get by without Ochain or Aegis. Trying to equate Magian stave trials to Ochain trials is ridiculous.

Pretending that WAR and MNK aren't already gods among men just to try and argue that Paladins should suck because someone somewhere wasn't breastfed lead paint is completely hypocritical. That the dev team is even considering options for enhancing Seigan in some way, or giving Warrior some sort of defensive stance while simultaneously telling Paladins that they can't be buffed because they can't be competent at both offense and defense or the game would crash is absolutely unfair and untrue.

Should an AF1 tarutaru Paladin be able to roll up and tank something? No. Should my properly geared Paladin be able to tank Voidwatch without Aegis or Ochain, and have a reason to do so? Absolutely. Ochain and Aegis should be enhancements, not prerequisites.

[Greatguardian]

Ascetic's Fury is garbage, and I would certainly hope that a MNK90 would know that. It is absolutely not worth using ever outside Abyssea, and barely worth using inside it. DRG can get by without Camlann's Torment because Drakes is better, that's a no-brainer.

You don't seem to understand the underlying problem. Anything a Paladin can do, an Aegis/Ochain Paladin can do ten times better. Buffing Paladin as a whole means buffing Aegis/Ochains Paladins 10x over. You only have two options for recourse: Nerf Aegis/Ochain so that a global Paladin buff won't break the 4th wall, or make Aegis/Ochain more reasonable, though still difficult/tedious, to complete.

I wonder which route SE has been taking for the past 6 months.

[Rorrick]

Ascetic's Fury is garbage, and I would certainly hope that a MNK90 would know that. It is absolutely not worth using ever outside Abyssea, and barely worth using inside it. DRG can get by without Camlann's Torment because Drakes is better, that's a no-brainer.

You don't seem to understand the underlying problem. Anything a Paladin can do, an Aegis/Ochain Paladin can do ten times better. Buffing Paladin as a whole means buffing Aegis/Ochains Paladins 10x over. You only have two options for recourse: Nerf Aegis/Ochain so that a global Paladin buff won't break the 4th wall, or make Aegis/Ochain more reasonable, though still difficult/tedious, to complete.

I wonder which route SE has been taking for the past 6 months.

Garbage compared to Victory Smite? Yes. Garbage compared to any other weaponskill inside Abyssea? No? Clearly it's crap outside.

We seem to disagree on Paladin's worth without Ochain (because 10x better than worthless is just marginally less worthless), but there's a clear third option for giving Paladin some utility without "breaking" it; offensive two-handed stance. Get some use out of that Greatsword skill, give Paladin some much-needed duality (arguing that this breaks Paladin is asinine. Look at MNK, NIN, THF, and anyone that can make use of Seigan), and it doesn't overpower the people with Ochain.

[Greatguardian]

I don't even know how to respond to that.

Caladbolg Paladin is the answer? Really?

Wait. You mentioned that Empyreans shouldn't be required for anything. Spinning...Slash...Paladin? Is the answer?

Not even Dark Knight uses Great Sword without Caladbolg/Torcleaver or a Relic.

[Avarice]

but there's a clear third option for giving Paladin some utility without "breaking" it; offensive two-handed stance. Get some use out of that Greatsword skill,

Aha... haha... hahaha...

Oh man; I needed a good laugh. Thank you so very much!

[Lordscyon]

PLD Just need some new tricks ^^
FLASH II
HOLY II (i am surprised whm got it xD)
FLASHGA!
^^

[Rorrick]

I don't even know how to respond to that.

Caladbolg Paladin is the answer? Really?

Wait. You mentioned that Empyreans shouldn't be required for anything. Spinning...Slash...Paladin? Is the answer?

Not even Dark Knight uses Great Sword without Caladbolg/Torcleaver or a Relic.

Because they can't rebalance weaponskills right?

[Greatguardian]

No amount of "Rebalancing" is going to make Spinning Slash stand up to Victory Smite, Ukko's Fury, Blade: Hi, Jishnu's Radiance, Wildfire, Evisceration, Drakesbane, Stringing Pummel, Hexa Strike, or Tachi: Fudo.

Great Swords are terrible weapons with clumsy x-hits and shoddy overall performance.

But wait, I forgot it's easier to change the entire game than to just get an Ochain.

[Rorrick]

It's not supposed to compare to Empyrean weaponskills, it's supposed to be not worthless. They could easily just introduce a new weaponskill instead of trying to fix Spinning Slash (or any other Greatsword weaponskill. Why are you hung up on Spinning Slash?). Even still, it would be fairly simple to make it a multi-hit crit weaponskill and call it a day. Let's not pretend this is some unaccomplishable task.

Greatswords sucking is just more reason to buff them. Add some variety. And really? Ascetic's is trash but Hexa Strike is on the same tier as Victory Smite?

But wait, I forgot everyone should have a pocket White Mage and a month of free time to make their Paladin baseline usable (still not desirable 99.8% of the time). I forgot that's what passes for good game design around here. I forgot that every argument against buffing Paladin is posited by the same group of people trying to buff Samurai and Warrior because they just aren't strong enough yet.

[Greatguardian]

Hexa Strike as a weaponskill? Awesome. Ascetic's Fury as a weaponskill? Total shit. The difference in practice comes only from the jobs that use them.

Making a multi hit crit WS, or essentially inventing a brand new WS, is not the same as "Rebalancing" an existing WS. Even so, Great Swords are total crap weapons. Their delay is too low to lend themselves to proper X-hits, and they're generally a pain in the ass to use.

And so what if it's not worthless? Chant du Cygne and Vorpal Blade are far from worthless. They're not used strictly offensively, however, because they're not as good as Victory Smite and every other weaponskill I listed there. There is absolutely no point in revamping Great Sword to be "useful" when we already have what you consider useful. The fact will still remain that that is not enough to make anyone want to bring PLD as a DD.

Ochains can also be solo'd without mules. Oh yeah, and people tend to have these things called friends. You should look into that sometime. They tend to make things a lot easier.

Inb4 massively multiplayer online games should cater their best content towards solo players.

[Anucris]

I do not believe u could solo an ochain. When diablos sleeps u u don't wake up on hits. Ifrits move kills most in range. There's just too many opportunities to die and gettin all those pops would take a really long time

[Greatguardian]

I never said solo'ing was the fastest way to do it. But I have seen plenty of NIN/DNCs solo Leviathan. It's really not that hard. Ironclads can all be kited, and Azdaja can be multibrewed if you have friends willing to hold the pops (or even if you don't, you can pick up randoms to hold the pops and multibrew them).

Pigeonholing yourself into doing things the absolute slowest way rather than just making a couple of friends is stupid. It can be done, but really everyone's better off just doing things together with a couple friends. You all benefit a lot more that way.

[Aeonk]

No amount of "Rebalancing" is going to make Spinning Slash stand up to Victory Smite, Ukko's Fury, Blade: Hi, Jishnu's Radiance, Wildfire, Evisceration, Drakesbane, Stringing Pummel, Hexa Strike, or Tachi: Fudo.

Great Swords are terrible weapons with clumsy x-hits and shoddy overall performance.

But wait, I forgot it's easier to change the entire game than to just get an Ochain.

What's funny is I used to think you were just trolling PLD's when these forums started up. Now I find myself agreeing with everything you say..... bastard....

But when you're right you're right. So called "real PLD's" who refuse to get Ochain (and don't already have Aegis) have absolutely no excuse other than laziness.

PLD has always had a higher work load. The better the DD, the harder the tank has to work in order to keep their role in a party. Rorrick says empyrean's shouldn't be required? Call me elitist, but I'd say empyreans are the new standard. When DD's and such around you are pushing their jobs to their absolute limits, that leaves PLD with 2 options: Step up, level another job.

[Greatguardian]

What's funny is I used to think you were just trolling PLD's when these forums started up. Now I find myself agreeing with everything you say..... bastard....

But when you're right you're right. So called "real PLD's" who refuse to get Ochain (and don't already have Aegis) have absolutely no excuse other than laziness.

PLD has always had a higher work load. The better the DD, the harder the tank has to work in order to keep their role in a party. Rorrick says empyrean's shouldn't be required? Call me elitist, but I'd say empyreans are the new standard. When DD's and such around you are pushing their jobs to their absolute limits, that leaves PLD with 2 options: Step up, level another job.

I actually take Paladin fairly seriously. I only really get trolly on this subforum when people come in squaking the same, tired old crap that's been rehashed a million times over and its grated beyond my last nerve (eg, when people walk up in the middle of a conversation and say shit like "Yeah, Paladin needs native Provoke okay!!!" or something about the Enmity cap). I really just don't feel like putting forth the effort to explain the same things for the hundredth time when new 10-post posters will show up without having read any of it anyways.

In 2k posts, my only two created threads were both PLD tutorial/information threads =/.

I'll still get called a troll, though, because I hold people to a higher standard. Paladin is not a job someone can just walk up and do "right", and it's not a job that will work in every situation (No job is, ever). Paladin needed a buff for years, one that came in two parts.

1) NMs that would actually swat DDs away like flies.
2) A defensive edge over those DDs significant enough to keep from being swatted away themselves.

Voidwalker NMs fulfilled part 1, and Ochain fulfilled part 2. Now? Paladin is relevant. It just takes a bit of effort to be good at it. But hell, when hasn't it?

Edit: Do you see what I mean? Do you see it? >:(

[Ashael]

I'd like Paladin to be given Curaja, make it like Accession Cure IV, same recast/cast cost, but the ability to mass cure the DDs in the other party would be nice without needing /sch. Especilally since SE doesn't want us having a higher tier Cure...
And give us the HP bonuses from monk, or just give us HP+20% for each of our Defense Bonuses..

[saevel]

In all honestly PLD should have "Enmity Bonus" job traits, start at 30 as enmity +10 and then +5 at 50 70 and 90. That should help with maintaining capped hate, won't help the melee's who don't know how to ride under the cap though.

[Zagen]

In all honestly PLD should have "Enmity Bonus" job traits, start at 30 as enmity +10 and then +5 at 50 70 and 90. That should help with maintaining capped hate, won't help the melee's who don't know how to ride under the cap though.
Except for any content where PLD isn't needed as the main tank the DDs aren't worried about the hate limit. Any content where a PLD is needed as the main tank the DDs know how to stay below the hate line already. This is true assuming you roll with competent players if not then fix that problem first.

[saevel]

Except for any content where PLD isn't needed as the main tank the DDs aren't worried about the hate limit. Any content where a PLD is needed as the main tank the DDs know how to stay below the hate line already. This is true assuming you roll with competent players if not then fix that problem first.

Hey you guys were asking for something to assist you in tanking. Tanking is about holding hate + damage mitigation, which one you want buffed lol.

[Zagen]

Hey you guys were asking for something to assist you in tanking. Tanking is about holding hate + damage mitigation, which one you want buffed lol.

You don't understand the problem. Neither of those will actually help much. The problem is on easy crap almost any job can hold hate and mitigate damage just as well as PLD meaning the only thing that is left is damage dealt which PLD sucks at. In other words unless you're in a Voidwatch shell PLD is useless when compared to a DD.

Ideally the game would be balanced so that PLD was beneficial against easy and hard stuff in the game but that wasn't how it was designed and to fix that wouldn't realistically be cost effective at this point in FFXI's life.

The easiest solution is more Voidwatch level of difficult content. That however excludes the casual market which at this point I'd imagine is quite larger than the hardcore.

[saevel]

You don't understand the problem. Neither of those will actually help much. The problem is on easy crap almost any job can hold hate and mitigate damage just as well as PLD meaning the only thing that is left is damage dealt which PLD sucks at. In other words unless you're in a Voidwatch shell PLD is useless when compared to a DD.

Ideally the game would be balanced so that PLD was beneficial against easy and hard stuff in the game but that wasn't how it was designed and to fix that wouldn't realistically be cost effective at this point in FFXI's life.

The easiest solution is more Voidwatch level of difficult content. That however excludes the casual market which at this point I'd imagine is quite larger than the hardcore.

Umm no,

Considering my shell usually use's two PLD tanks at events, PLD is definitely not dead. And no other jobs can't tank nearly as well. What your talking about is Abyssea, and inside Abyssea WHM's get so much MP / Refresh Atma that they can just Cure V - > Cure V -> Cure V over and over again on a single melee without any issues. A melee with DD flavored atma and a tricked out WHM can survive indefinitely against most NMs. In this situation a PLD offers nothing over a WAR for red procs, and you'll already have a WHM for yellow procs, so no PLD means more loot for everyone else.

Once you step outside abyssea all that changes, even now a MNK trying to "CS tank" will get his face stomped on anything voidwatch or even old school HNM (Gates of Hades and Fulmination can still wipe you at 90). PW / AV will still destroy you if you don't carefully plan, and yes bring along PLD tanks.

PLD's are the best tanks in the game, their mandatory for big alliance battles. Their just like DRK, DRG, SAM, ect.. in that their simply not needed in "low man" content of a party or less. Doesn't stop you from going, heck their still nice to have on those low-man battles.

[Greatguardian]

What the hell am I reading? PLD tanks on Absolute Virtue? Please go back to the Red Mage forums where your incompetence is at least par for the course.

Zagen knows as well as anyone else that Pld excels in Voidwatch, but that doesn't mean it's useful anywhere else. Paladin's niche is difficult monsters. The only difficult monsters in the game are Voidwatch NMs. By adding new content that is difficult, SE is fixing PLD's issues at the source.

Cerberus is not hard. Khimaira is not hard. PW is not hard and AV is most definitely not hard. Paladin does not excel in any of these fights. You have repeatedly mentioned on this and other boards that things like Dhorme Khimaira are actually difficult and involve Paladins/Alliances, so I will implore you now to quit while the readership of this board doesn't yet realize how far behind them you are.

Adding Enmity bonus traits will do nothing for Paladin, because Enmity has never been the crux of the problem. Good Paladins cap Enmity easily. Mediocre Paladins cap Enmity 90% of the time. That is what Zagen was driving at, and he is 100% correct.

[Zagen]

Considering my shell usually use's two PLD tanks at events, PLD is definitely not dead. And no other jobs can't tank nearly as well. What your talking about is Abyssea, and inside Abyssea WHM's get so much MP / Refresh Atma that they can just Cure V - > Cure V -> Cure V over and over again on a single melee without any issues. A melee with DD flavored atma and a tricked out WHM can survive indefinitely against most NMs. In this situation a PLD offers nothing over a WAR for red procs, and you'll already have a WHM for yellow procs, so no PLD means more loot for everyone else.
WHM Refresh Options:
Head 1
body 2
hands/feet 1
legs 1

That's 5MP/tick not counting Atma since this is for "outside", lets throw a BRD into the mix as they are nice to have with DDs after all. A decent bard will have +2 emp legs and the harp meaning 4/5 MP Ballads or 9 MP/tick.

That brings the total to 14MP/tick 4 more than MM gives in Abyssea.

If the WHM is /RDM there's another 3 for 17MP/tick. With a proper RDM that would be 21MP/tick.

Seriously MP is not an issue in large groups for the healer(s) anymore even outside Abyssea. It only affects small man groups and those wouldn't be doing content that's hard enough to make the WHM's MP pool a concern, well I should say they shouldn't be small manning those events.

Greatgaurdian covered everything else.

Edit: WHM can get more refresh from gear than I posted, I only posted what I considered to be good for an idle set while fighting.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Main/ammo slot should be counted as +1 imo, whether it's from owleyes + genbu's or Terra's + Oneiros grip. The last piece I know of is moonshade earring.

[Zagen]

Main/ammo slot should be counted as +1 imo, whether it's from owleyes + genbu's or Terra's + Oneiros grip. The last piece I know of is moonshade earring.
I don't count owleyes just because personally I'm not a fan of +Damage gear in combat but I completely forgot about Oneiros Grip!

[Ashael]

More questionable ideas:
New job trait, that gives PLD a, separate from gear, 50% Cure Potency on Cure spells cast on others. Doesn't give us Cure V and VI but allows us to prop up our DDs when we lose hate.
New job trait, somewhat like the Divine Benison boost, occassionaly a PLD's cures are AoE, make it like 20% proc rate.
Allow us to equip both a great sword and shield. Crappy WSs still... but it would be rather nifty XD

[Caketime]

More questionable ideas:
New job trait, that gives PLD a, separate from gear, 50% Cure Potency on Cure spells cast on others. Doesn't give us Cure V and VI but allows us to prop up our DDs when we lose hate.
New job trait, somewhat like the Divine Benison boost, occassionaly a PLD's cures are AoE, make it like 20% proc rate.
Allow us to equip both a great sword and shield. Crappy WSs still... but it would be rather nifty XD

Monkey Grip 2 Hander Paladin with Hospitaler Prestige. Nice choice, if a bit odd. Still, I can see how it would make a D&D session fun.

[Alerith]

I think we need to discuss the term "Useless" in this case.

"Useless" implies that a PLD can't do something.
This is far from the truth. The current problem is that PLD is not the BEST choice for most content.

Can a PLD tank Ogopogo, Dhroma Khimera, Glavoid, Orthrus, etc. etc. etc.? Hell yes.
Are they the best choice? Absolutely not.

You can still use a PLD for these tank slots. It's just that other jobs can deal out more damage while surviving.

Also, I really feel the need to point this out:

Paladin can do 9 elemental red procs out of the 10 that WAR can do. The only one PLD can't do that WAR can is Shadow of Death. For the love of god, take a damn PLD if they are offering red procs and you can't find a WAR. Worse case scenario, it's Katana, Great Katana or Shadow of Death, only one of which WAR would be able to do anyways.

Paladin can cover:
Red Lotus Blade, Seraph Blade, Seraph Strike, Earth Crusher, Sunburst, Cyclone, Energy Drain, Freezebite, Raiden Thrust

Other:
Shadow of Death, Blade: Ei, Tachi: Koki, Tachi: Jinpu

My stance on my beloved PLD job:

Paladin is an extremely versatile job. It's only as worthless as you make it.

[Zagen]

I think we need to discuss the term "Useless" in this case.

"Useless" implies that a PLD can't do something.
This is far from the truth. The current problem is that PLD is not the BEST choice for most content.

Can a PLD tank Ogopogo, Dhroma Khimera, Glavoid, Orthrus, etc. etc. etc.? Hell yes.
Are they the best choice? Absolutely not.

You can still use a PLD for these tank slots. It's just that other jobs can deal out more damage while surviving.
use·less   [yoos-lis]
adjective
1. of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile: It is useless to reason with him.
2. without useful qualities; of no practical good: a useless person; a useless gadget.

Does the person filling the tank slot have a MNK/WAR/etc. leveled, a proc mage job, or WHM? Then PLD as an option is useless because they would be going as another job. Number 2 applies here when comparing other jobs as alternatives.

Edit: /NIN now allows for:
Katana 144 + 16 + 7(torque) + 5(hachimaki) + 5 (Tjukurrpa Ring) = 177
Great Katana 133 + 16 + 7(torque) + 5(hachimaki) + 5(Moepapa Annulet) + 5(bushi) = 171

So WAR is missing 1 Red proc and PLD 2.

[hideka]

"insert comment about fencer"
Paladin has a high amount of defense, so we are not thinking about adding a high amount of attack power on top of their defense currently.

not to be rude, but fencer is pretty freakin useless to warriors, the frequency at which they use their 1H & shield combo is absloustley MINISCULE when compared to the power houses of dual wield and raging rush. adding in fencer would give paladin a good boost in damage which in turn would help their threat. paladin hands down should be given more fencer traits then any job. i mean seriously, have you actualy looked at what fencer does? its +50 TP and 10% crit rate roughly.
what WS's does paladin use that TP bonus would be horribly broken on? Oh noes sanguine blade absorbed 20 more HP~! oh noes he can use spirit blade 50 TP sooner ! OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOESSSSS!! omg his vorpal blades got an extra critical hit ( and only half the time i might add), i mean for real you really need to re-evaluate that comment man >_> and if your just regurgitating the Dev teams comments, then slap them for me, because they very obviously dont ever play paladin.

[Akutenshi]

I was trying to get my friend to play the game so I directed him to http://www.finalfantasyxi.com/ When I went to that site myself I couldn't help but laugh. Clearly the cover for Abyssea collection is wrong. Ninja should be at the center next to the white mage, the paladin should be where the dancer is, and the dancer could take ninjas spot on the cover. If they did that most jobs would be represented accordingly lol

Kind of bummed about paladin though. It's a job I wouldn't mind leveling since I amassed most of the seals for it, but just the stuff I'm reading isn't really making me motivated to play it. Granted, I'm sure you can make paladin work with some effort and could find some fun it playing it, but with less effort I could play another job better and more efficiently.

If every job can pretty much evade damage while tanking in some form, why not just go the opposite route with paladin? Why not increase their defense even more? Not to the point where they can heal themselves obviously. Why not add more enmity to their personal cures too so they could heal themselves sparingly for more enmity but be smart since mp isn't usually infinite. Least this way you would still need a healer of some sort and paladin wouldn't be invincible. Why not have a JA that makes it so people around the paladin or in alliance/ party generate half or a 1/4 enmity or some form of generating less. They have a similar mechanic on some of the new armor that gives people around the person wearing it some benefit, I don't see why they couldn't do a similar mechanic for paladin.

[Aeonk]

I was trying to get my friend to play the game so I directed him to http://www.finalfantasyxi.com/ When I went to that site myself I couldn't help but laugh. Clearly the cover for Abyssea collection is wrong. Ninja should be at the center next to the white mage, the paladin should be where the dancer is, and the dancer could take ninjas spot on the cover. If they did that most jobs would be represented accordingly lol

Kind of bummed about paladin though. It's a job I wouldn't mind leveling since I amassed most of the seals for it, but just the stuff I'm reading isn't really making me motivated to play it. Granted, I'm sure you can make paladin work with some effort and could find some fun it playing it, but with less effort I could play another job better and more efficiently.

If every job can pretty much evade damage while tanking in some form, why not just go the opposite route with paladin? Why not increase their defense even more? Not to the point where they can heal themselves obviously. Why not add more enmity to their personal cures too so they could heal themselves sparingly for more enmity but be smart since mp isn't usually infinite. Least this way you would still need a healer of some sort and paladin wouldn't be invincible. Why not have a JA that makes it so people around the paladin or in alliance/ party generate half or a 1/4 enmity or some form of generating less. They have a similar mechanic on some of the new armor that gives people around the person wearing it some benefit, I don't see why they couldn't do a similar mechanic for paladin.

Someone hasn't tried voidwatch yet.

[Brolic]

Someone hasn't tried voidwatch yet.

As people get more and more familiar with vw the need for pld becomes less and less. We started off taking 2 plds to vw, we got better then switched to 1 now we're at the point where we just use ukko wars. between staggers and temps plds are barely needed for most of vw

[zagam]

As people get more and more familiar with vw the need for pld becomes less and less. We started off taking 2 plds to vw, we got better then switched to 1 now we're at the point where we just use ukko wars. between staggers and temps plds are barely needed for most of vw
Until you can guarantee wars getting full time drinks they still get one shotted way to much to be remotely good tanks. even with full time fanatics the magic still one shots them. Have you done anything past tier 2 cities?

[Brolic]

Until you can guarantee wars getting full time drinks they still get one shotted way to much to be remotely good tanks. even with full time fanatics the magic still one shots them. Have you done anything past tier 2 cities?
have you? You understand that periapts give fools as well right? and that capping mdt as war is pretty doable?

[zagam]

have you? You understand that periapts give fools as well right? and that capping mdt as war is pretty doable?
really? and mdt makes the damage 0 too right? If you're really suggesting war tanks for vw then show a vid of one full time tanking pil or aello or any number of VW nms and ill eat my words, I have a feeling im going to starve to death though.

[Sakima]

really? and mdt makes the damage 0 too right? If you're really suggesting war tanks for vw then show a vid of one full time tanking pil or aello or any number of VW nms and ill eat my words, I have a feeling im going to starve to death though.
May not let you take 0 dmg, but mdt/pdt sure adds alot of survival for mobs like Pil and Aello
for any job. I say this because i am a experienced tank on war and ninja even! on said mobs along the sides of other wars and monks, rarely will i drop to less then 1khp flank opening included. As said before why would you bring down the kill speed by having the focus on 1-2 pld tanks when said focus can be on a versatile dd tank? I can assure you there was no pld in the ally in our 2min 10 sec (give or take) Pil last night, no exaggeration i wasn't even the one timing it. Paladin is great damage mitigation no one is taking that away but while you awe in your aegis dmg taken i am getting multiple runs in.

[zagam]

May not let you take 0 dmg, but mdt/pdt sure adds alot of survival for mobs like Pil and Aello
for any job. I say this because i am a experienced tank on war and ninja even! on said mobs along the sides of other wars and monks, rarely will i drop to less then 1khp flank opening included. As said before why would you bring down the kill speed by having the focus on 1-2 pld tanks when said focus can be on a versatile dd tank? I can assure you there was no pld in the ally in our 2min 10 sec (give or take) Pil last night, no exaggeration i wasn't even the one timing it. Paladin is great damage mitigation no one is taking that away but while you awe in your aegis dmg taken i am getting multiple runs in.
And I can assure you that you're full of BS, again everyone jumps on the bandwagon, gives outrageous bs eyeballed stats to make themselves look like they know what there talking about. There are the rare VERY rare times that you chain stagger mobs like pil, but are you really going to sit there and tell me you pop spam pil with heavy DD only and magically land enough staggers so the paper thin wars actually survive more then 30 secs. So you constantly get GA HQs and its always RR or you magic is always thunder 2? its takes longer then 2 min just to cycle the GA WS.
Again,like your fellow asura fool stop posting BS and prove it.

[Sakima]

And I can assure you that you're full of BS, again everyone jumps on the bandwagon, gives outrageous bs eyeballed stats to make themselves look like they know what there talking about. There are the rare VERY rare times that you chain stagger mobs like pil, but are you really going to sit there and tell me you pop spam pil with heavy DD only and magically land enough staggers so the paper thin wars actually survive more then 30 secs. So you constantly get GA HQs and its always RR or you magic is always thunder 2? its takes longer then 2 min just to cycle the GA WS.
Again,like your fellow asura fool stop posting BS and prove it.

Everything you just said has more bullshi then i posted, here ill point them out to you. Whats hard about procing through Pil's shield besides tp gain for melee, worse case scenario make use of monarchdrink/kaggen atmacite to battle your way through the proc. Your comment about war taking 2 mins to hit proc leaves me wondering what kind of support/atmacites your dd have also lack of communication in your ally. Only right on thing you said in your post is that i "sit there and spam pop Pil with heavy dd." Never did i say the ally is only full of wars or that its the only job that has viable source of dmg. Alliance setup is fairly balanced in proc's/dmg even make a drk or bluemage sub pld from time to time if it makes you feel better. Let me clarify something never did i say we do 2min 10 sec fights every round was just to indicate the difference of letting your well geared melee tank vs paladin. I am sorry my experiences have you perplexed that you result to insults, i could care less that you don't believe me i know what i am saying is true, have all the peace of mind i need on that aspect. Ill see what i can do about that video should provide some motivation in the ore/log hunt that is VW.

[zagam]

i could care less that you don't believe me i know what i am saying is true, have all the peace of mind i need on that aspect. Ill see what i can do about that video should provide some motivation in the ore/log hunt that is VW. Again making FALSE claims about how amazing you are without as much as a screenshot just to prove your bandwagon mentality , that's my whole point and neither one of you can prove yourself other then I beat pil in 2 min kekeke. I never said bring an army of wars, show me ONE WAR that can A. cycle ALL GA ws in 2 min AND the kicker? be alive the entire time main tanking, lets not even get into the fact the war is there for MULTIPLE weapon proc...

So to summarize you beat Pil in 2-3 min with war main tank correct? lets try and get that vid done before we hit 99 m'kay?

[Sakima]

Bandwagon mentality ok.. lol not really sure to what your reffering to but hey if it makes you feel cool keep on saying it. Never did imply i am the reason for said quick kills, credit goes to the alliance. All i see is alot of mad in your posts. Im guessing you never fully read my posts because i never implied it was 1 war tank or 1 war hitting the procs. Read my first post "along the sides of other wars and monks" (sure sounds like 1 war doing all the work lol). Its very clear you have not experienced how fast pace vw can be(more reason a pld shouldnt be tanking), don't get mad at me because its within the boundaries of the system. Its obvious i wont get my point across to you, so ya your right about a video doesn't mean i am making false statements. If a video is made it will be of a fast kill and a war holding Pil so everything is clear for you, ill make sure some flank openings are captured so there's no doubt for your paladin only tank thinking. To summarize Pil can be killed quickly and if needed be held by war or monk without the use of fanatic drinks.

[zagam]

Bandwagon mentality ok.. lol not really sure to what your reffering to but hey if it makes you feel cool keep on saying it. Never did imply i am the reason for said quick kills, credit goes to the alliance. All i see is alot of mad in your posts. Im guessing you never fully read my posts because i never implied it was 1 war tank or 1 war hitting the procs. Read my first post "along the sides of other wars and monks" (sure sounds like 1 war doing all the work lol). Its very clear you have not experienced how fast pace vw can be(more reason a pld shouldnt be tanking), don't get mad at me because its within the boundaries of the system. Its obvious i wont get my point across to you, so ya your right about a video doesn't mean i am making false statements. If a video is made it will be of a fast kill and a war holding Pil so everything is clear for you, ill make sure some flank openings are captured so there's no doubt for your paladin only tank thinking. To summarize Pil can be killed quickly and if needed be held by war or monk without the use of fanatic drinks.
aaaaaand now the resorting to I don't have to prove anything to you lol, I knew shoulda placed bets since I knew you cant back any claim up , Asura people are so thick. Yes a video or lack of DOES prove your making false statements my first post was to that gimp thats never done VW saying a single war CAN solo tank all of voidwatch and you had to chime im with BS that you cant back up, so again prove it . Prove your 2 min pils, prove your no plds on vw. You beat aello withought plds holding adds too I bet, oh wait nm you beat that in 45 seconds.....

so since you can't comprehend basic English ill dumb it down for you.
Pics or stfu

lolasura

[Greatguardian]

Holy shit, all this because someone honestly believes it is straight up impossible to do Voidwatch without Paladins?

This is retarded. Shut the hell up. Voidwatch can be done without a single Paladin at any tier when the group is experienced and coordinated enough.

[zagam]

Holy shit, all this because someone honestly believes it is straight up impossible to do Voidwatch without Paladins?

This is retarded. Shut the hell up. Voidwatch can be done without a single Paladin at any tier when the group is experienced and coordinated enough.
So you're here to prove all can be done without? again stfu and prove it.

[Brolic]

So you're here to prove all can be done without? again stfu and prove it.

http://i44.tinypic.com/125qmmv.jpg

not a pld in sight



lol asura

[Rorrick]

It has take FAR too long for anyone to mention how redundant Paladin is with Sentinel's Scherzo and Earthen Armor.

[Leonlionheart]

Holy shit, all this because someone honestly believes it is straight up impossible to do Voidwatch without Paladins?

This is retarded. Shut the hell up. Voidwatch can be done without a single Paladin at any tier when the group is experienced and coordinated enough.

The worst part is there's someone here +1'ing him

[Brolic]

Holy shit, all this because someone honestly believes it is straight up impossible to do Voidwatch without Paladins?

This is retarded. Shut the hell up. Voidwatch can be done without a single Paladin at any tier when the group is experienced and coordinated enough.

Mind you the screenshot i posted was of a shout pickup group from port juneo, not nearly as coordinated as a static\linkshell would be. and we still won relatively easy every time with a mnk and a war tanking. Pld is my first love, but it's nothing more than a crutch for new content till people get better acclimated.

[zagam]

not a pld in sight



lol asura

Are you kidding? all this is , is some colecovision graphics with what looks like a sole mnk tanking at the end of a fight with a cor smn and god knows what that other dude is, I get your need to try and save face , and posting a crappy SS with 90% of the players jobs unknown isnt exactly proof. Other then the fact you have Malekith which does explain alot.....

Pld will always have a place in VW , forget the staggers it brings because if that's the case it would be mnk/whms only anyway. Id rather have a pld holding and letting the melee do what there there for instead of rotating out weakened players because some dude said on some forum lolpld. What job do you use to hold pets on zilart? serious question, I bet there are a few that can but none as good as pld.

[Leonlionheart]

That was Kinggalka's run, I can vouch for the fact that he uses MNK and WAR tanks, he even occasionally tanks on DRK (Looks like that's him there sporting his new gear). I have personally tanked for him on WAR without death, or even near death on several occasions. I use a cap MDT and a 41% PDT set that mixes some haste into the game (yeah, you don't even need to cap PDT to tank, it's better if you mix in offensive stats anyway).

On the other hand whenever a group uses a PLD tank, things take longer and become much more difficult. PLD is utter trash atm. Don't let it reflect yourself, it's not your fault that the job is so utterly useless (it's been useless since Seigan, but that's a story for another topic).

Get a WHM who has close to, or capped, cure casting time and high cure potency and you'll be safe to tank with anyone who has a PDT/MDT set. Honestly the WHM is the most important part of the party if using DD tanks, so that's probably why you think PLD is necessary. Get better WHMs and move out of the safety zone that is PLD.

[Brolic]

Are you kidding? all this is , is some colecovision graphics with what looks like a sole mnk tanking at the end of a fight with a cor smn and god knows what that other dude is, I get your need to try and save face , and posting a crappy SS with 90% of the players jobs unknown isnt exactly proof. Other then the fact you have Malekith which does explain alot.....

Pld will always have a place in VW , forget the staggers it brings because if that's the case it would be mnk/whms only anyway. Id rather have a pld holding and letting the melee do what there there for instead of rotating out weakened players because some dude said on some forum lolpld. What job do you use to hold pets on zilart? serious question, I bet there are a few that can but none as good as pld.

use your 1\2 brain and look at the hp\mp list of the alliance and tell me who can even come close to being a pld? malekith rdm, silenced drk. I'm an aegis\almace pld and I'm there on my galka whm with 900mp and melee atmacites. You can see where pld belong in vw or in endgame... on other jobs

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

some colecovision graphics

Please don't drag one of the greatest game consoles ever into your personal penis-measuring match, thanks.

[Sappho]

http://i44.tinypic.com/125qmmv.jpg
not a pld in sight
lol asura

This wouldn't be a screen shot showing third party software would it?

Is that still against TOS?

Oh well, I'm sure SE never reads these forums.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Nothing you post on the forum has any real affect on your in game character. Getting Perma'd from forums means nothing, you can still play the game.

[Brolic]

This wouldn't be a screen shot showing third party software would it?

Is that still against TOS?

Oh well, I'm sure SE never reads these forums.

oh it's photoshoped.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

oh it's photoshoped.

:) Oh, I see!

[Rorrick]

Can we get an update, Camate?

[Quan]

Throwing my 2 cents. I apologize in advance for any miss use of words or wrongly stated information:

I didn't read the whole thread, but I feel the frustration of many about how the PLD job has developed over the years, and how any adjustments made by SE still leave a huge gap to fill in regards to useful abilities, spells, and stats compared to other jobs. Everybody knows most DD melee jobs can deal high damage which is the main and fastest source of enmity generation in the game, and with a healer support, said jobs can stay alive to keep the attention of the monster for as long as needed. In the case of the PLD, it loses in damage to DDs. On defense, PLD outranks any job, but without enmity, there is no point in looking at it due to the fact that most of the time other jobs do the tanking.
During the wyrm era, PLD was somewhat useful for fights that took a long time to win. Still, once people found out fastest ways to complete the same fights, i.e., Fafnir, Nidhogg, Tiamat, PLD was left as a job one needed to just gear up for show, and for when fights went wrong and there were full alliance wipes. Now after abyssea and voidwatch, fights are even faster requiring jobs that can deal great amounts of damage, PLD is not one of them.
Dear SE:
Do I want PLD as the ultimate DD job? NO
Do I want PLD as the ultimate tanking job? YES
What can you do for PLDs SE?
- Really simple, ADD a job ability that keeps the enemy(ies) full attention on the PLD until the player is KO or leaves the battle. This ability should have a 30sec recast(for mobs that reset hate), and please don't combine it with Invincible or any other ability that takes minutes to reuse.

The benefits of my request, which I would think other people have made as well, are that no one would complain about it because it doesn't increase the damage dealing capacity of PLD and it will keep the hate on one player regardless of damage dealt by others. Flash is not enough, Cover is not enough, Sentinel is not enough, etc., but this ability will be enough to make PLD even more useful than it is now. Another benefit, this ability is that it is FAIR; the attention of the enemy will be focused on the PLD as long as the player is alive, which makes the player dependent on the PLD resources, such as, healing and defense, and it makes the PLD dependent of other healer jobs to maintain hate.
Last but no least, the job should be enjoyable, there is nothing more frustrating than having to run after a mob that is going for a BLM or a RNG after a high damage spell was casted or a weaponskill went off. I understand all DD should use "moderation", but that's a word that doesn't exist in fast pace battles.

Thank you.

[Tildarus]

Paladin has been somewhat obsolete for as long as I have played. I started about 6 months after NA release and I loved the idea of PLD from the time I heard about it. I was quite good at and took pride in the role but about the time I got to 40th level I became a glorified puller because the game does not need tanks for almost all the content. My brother played BLM and got three others and I pulled they nuked straight away and when I lost aggro we all cast a couple of low level heals on each other and went back to work. Fortunately for many PLDs people didn't take to this idea for along time. They all wanted a tank, healer and three DDers. The secret is out, you don't need a tank. Even fighting most NMs temp items and DDers with a good WHM can be managed quite easily. This is insult enough, but not being able to get seals as PLD is hard pill to swallow. I have to go on my BLM and stagger because I can't get an invite or even people to go with me if I am on PLD without the mockery. Worse I can't solo the NMs and mobs that subtlety classes can to get pop items. I have no problem farming stuff with THF because of evasion and high DD output compared to PLD. PLD is too gear dependent and the small kid on the playground wanting to play dodgeball. I guess i will just do what everyone else with an understanding of how useless PLD is and level a BST. Love SE but I feel jipped for my loyalty to a job SE can't iron out.

[Aeonk]

The issue with asking for a hate locking JA is it takes away any/all strategic enmity management required to actually tank in the game. We don't need an easy button for hate management and it's not realistic to think that is the answer.

2 things are going to have to happen.

First and foremost, the overall hate cap needs to be increased. We're beyond the age of the game where 800 dmg was considered "pretty good", but the hate cap hasn't changed to reflect that. 1 or 2 WS's putting you at hate cap is where the issue is. Even if a DD didn't want to tank and was trying to hold back (understandable considering the DD's who carry proper MDT/PDT sets is really low), they shouldn't be expected to just stop WS'ing in order to "let" us tank.

Second, give PLD a slightly higher hate threshold than it's counterparts, maybe only accessible by a job trait. Nothing too high, nothing too low. What this would do is still put emphasis on building hate quickly with all the tools we have at our disposal, and once you reach that individual hate cap, it puts emphasis on mitigating damage taken so you don't dip down back into universal hate cap ranges and cause the mob to spin like a top.

What about easy content you ask? Well it would still be beneficial to bring a PLD, but not required. Even on some of the easier VW NM's, the ability to focus all dmg done onto the one job that's better at mitigating it than any other means you need less support to keep the rest of the DD's alive. replace a WHM with a WAR instead, and there you have it.

Granted the above is kind of a moot point when under ideal conditions the DD's are rocking Fanatic's drinks 24/7. The above suggestion was more or less made with the notion that Fanatics is not going to be a permanent thing in endgame from here on out (at least it better not...)

Just my 2 cents.

[Babekeke]

Maybe you missed this from the new 2 hour thread:


Paladin
The new 2-hour ability can be used for cases where just turtling up with Invincible and letting an enemy wail on you will not turn the tides of the fight, since you can enhance your defenses while reducing an enemy’s HP with the reflected damage.

*As mentioned previously in the post about adding an enmity boost effect to this ability, we understand the problems with the enmity cap. We plan on considering this for paladin in general and not limiting it only to the new 2-hour ability effect.


PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

[NanoFox]

well the enmitty system is gonna need a dramatic overhual if Pld is gonna ever get back doing what it does best.

[Nawesemo]

Here's my take, if your in doubt, you take the pld, if victory is certain, you ZERG it... Someone said it below "we can't expect them to "let" us tank.", ....that's their bad when they die then.... But yeah, a lot of jobs can do well in mitigating dmg, and making crap die, but them aegis. And o chain plds.... They still know they're the bomb. I think for the most part, when a pld is needed by a group they shine, when its not.... It had lost its place.... My thinking is saying maybe the dds got all their sparklies and are e peening out.... And crying when their pld cant get the mob off of them in the 3 seconds it took the mob to rip their,face off.... "Letting" your tank tank, has always been part of the plan..... We often are just not that patient when we can ZERG so much. The 3 hour hold fests are over, unless we want em back. And let the tank tqnk.....(keep in mind, our plds are pretty buff, aegis and/or ochain, empy or mythic or just a paloladin. I like em in my alliances though.

[Babekeke]

Here's my take, if your in doubt, you take the pld, if victory is certain, you ZERG it... Someone said it below "we can't expect them to "let" us tank.", ....that's their bad when they die then.... But yeah, a lot of jobs can do well in mitigating dmg, and making crap die, but them aegis. And o chain plds.... They still know they're the bomb. I think for the most part, when a pld is needed by a group they shine, when its not.... It had lost its place.... My thinking is saying maybe the dds got all their sparklies and are e peening out.... And crying when their pld cant get the mob off of them in the 3 seconds it took the mob to rip their,face off.... "Letting" your tank tank, has always been part of the plan..... We often are just not that patient when we can ZERG so much. The 3 hour hold fests are over, unless we want em back. And let the tank tqnk.....(keep in mind, our plds are pretty buff, aegis and/or ochain, empy or mythic or just a paloladin. I like em in my alliances though.

An interesting observation, and something that played on my mind in abyssea yesterday. Our group was helping a NIN to get all of his gear, which involved killing both Indrik, and Kakawhatever (the other Unicorn in grauberg for nin back). As anyone who has fought these mobs before will know, both mobs have the ability to 1-shot most jobs that don't have Scherzo/Migawari/Earthen armor.

This meant that as THF, I had to be cautious, as even with -DT/Regen atmas I'd be toast if I caught the wrong TP move. Luckily, we had a PLD in our group with aegis/ochain (I assume he used Aegis for this but didn't check). Due to the ridiculous hate cap, it's not long before we're both bouncing hate, depsite me using TA Exenterator a couple of times at the start.

To counter getting 1-shotted, I had to "let the PLD tank". Not so easy when every time I hit the mob, I pull hate; so I had to melee 2-3 attack rounds after each TP move used by the mob, then turn and let the PLD take hate again until mob uses TP move again (2 in Indrik's case as it cures, then uses Attack TP move back-to back each time).

So, not easy, not quick, but possible. In abyssea for kill speed, it's probably faster to just zombie with apoc atma TBH, but outside, certainly the way to go.

As for the fix, the change to enmity for PLD doesn't have to be all that drastic. If the current caps are 10,000 CE and 10,000 VE, SE only needs to up those caps for PLD to 10,100 each to allow them to stay above the DD's hate cap most of the time.
Only massive damage moves are going to drop the PLD's hate enough for the DDs to get hate, just like back at 75.

[Anais]

You realize that means pld can never, ever lose hate no matter what he does, or anyone else in the alliance does, right? The only thing that would ever make a pld lose hate in this case would be the mob using a hate reset move.

The gimpiest gimp of a pld would be able to keep hate over any DD, no matter how strong they were.

Do you seriously think this is a good idea?

Not really, lets say a monster faces drk, then pld stays in the middle, at this point monster still targets drk but "thx to this new trait" drk just receives half of dmg and the other half is directed to pld, in the case pld moves from the middle, monster keeps facing drk and the dmg gets back full to drk.

ofc it would not be a 50%, it could start with 20%, then with some "new" armor might come with an extend to this ability, like: "Companion gloves: def ?? agi ?? dex ?? Valliation +5"


i digged this idea from another thread,