So there's only 5 jobs that work now? [Archive]

Rafien

07-26-2011, 12:40 AM

DRK is an amazing job - Not so much for the new fight everything in ten seconds and get onto the next fight type, but a great job..

Here's why.
Absorb spells - 30+ mana per cast
Drain - 30+ mana to cast
- Total mana at 80 - Roughly 200.
So they can cast drain and absorbs spells without a problem in long fights, fight without rest, well their not going to do well with their mana.

SoulEater - Doing GoV and attempting to kill 10 things in the quickest way possible without anyone helping you means death to a DRK that dares to use it.

Last Resort - Great

-But, we still do great damage without souleater and Absorbs so haste gear would keep this job alive and well. Other then that, I love DRK and doesn't really need much changing.

Eeek

07-26-2011, 12:41 AM

NIN WAR MNK THF WHM BLM are the current hot jobs in Abyssea, but it's all too likely that they won't be the hottest jobs forever. Only THF enjoyed a permanent place as a desired job over the years, and it certainly wasn't due to their damage output.

NIN was a dead job before Abyssea.
WAR was once, a long time ago, only considered a subjob and not a real main job.
MNK struggled to get invites in the skillchain-MB era.
THF will be forever relevant only because of TH.
WHM struggled to get merit PT invites and was often deemed subpar next to RDM, even in some event settings.
BLM was once completely ostracized aside from Endgame events and BCNMs/KSNMs.

It's all cyclical. The playerbase's perception of each job and their individual desirability rose and fell over the years and will continue to do so in the future.

Finuve

07-26-2011, 12:44 AM

DRK is useless

Alhanelem

07-26-2011, 12:45 AM

Just starting again, after about a year break, and it seems (from reading the forums) that mnk, nin, war, whm, and smn are the only ones that people seem to say are worth while now.

I know abys. is out now, and i've not had a chance to experience it, but from what it seems if you arn't worth while there you arn't worth while any where.

maybe i'm missing something, or maybe its just all job forums are "omg my job is bad or worse than yours".
Where did you get the idea that SMN is worthwhile right now?

Karbuncle

07-26-2011, 12:51 AM

Where did you get the idea that SMN is worthwhile right now?

I Think know what you're referring too lol...

But on the off chance your serious. SMN is actually quite useful for Voidwatch content. Most of those fights are "Distance" fights and SMN really excels. Plus Earthern Armor is exceptionally useful :Q!

Malamasala

07-26-2011, 03:05 AM

I Think know what you're referring too lol...

But on the off chance your serious. SMN is actually quite useful for Voidwatch content. Most of those fights are "Distance" fights and SMN really excels. Plus Earthern Armor is exceptionally useful :Q!

Exceptionally is an extreme exaggeration. I've done plenty of voidwatch without it (mainly for not being in a tank or melee party) and I can't say we lost a single one because of lack of Earthen Armor. (I've lost a malboro fight thanks to lack of stun, and I've lost a mandragora fight thanks to lack of stun... so I'd say stunners are plenty more useful than Earthen Armor)

Summoner however is just fine for dealing damage though. But then, so were they in sky 2004. And Summoner will remain useful until we end up in zerg situations again. (Or too much annoying absorb monsters, those can really turn a 1 min attack into a 1 min disaster)

Khajit

07-26-2011, 03:24 AM

Uh... Smn's main use IS zerging in the first place thanks to alexander. Unless you 're implying that normal DD are so above smn in damage that whenever they engage in proper gear and play properly it counts as a zerg?

Alhanelem

07-26-2011, 03:54 AM

Because one avatar that is only a 2 hour ability should be the only thing that makes summoner useful.

Please, any argument saying SMN is good which mentions perfect defense is invalid. It's a one trick pony.

Khajit

07-26-2011, 04:02 AM

Oh would you stop talking when you don't understand anything you read Alhanhelem? It's quite clear if you'd actually understood the flow of the conversation that I was merely correcting Malamasala claim that smn is useless in zerging when it's actually the main use/role for the job outside of earthen armour in voidwatch.
I didn't say smn is good. I didn't say it was shit. You're giving me the impression that your mind is randomly injecting words and statements that dont exist into conversations.

Rearden

07-26-2011, 04:16 AM

It's because he's the pseudo dev team representative. He actually confers with the devs prior to any post.

Karbuncle

07-26-2011, 04:41 AM

Exceptionally is an extreme exaggeration. I've done plenty of voidwatch without it (mainly for not being in a tank or melee party) and I can't say we lost a single one because of lack of Earthen Armor. (I've lost a malboro fight thanks to lack of stun, and I've lost a mandragora fight thanks to lack of stun... so I'd say stunners are plenty more useful than Earthen Armor)

Summoner however is just fine for dealing damage though. But then, so were they in sky 2004. And Summoner will remain useful until we end up in zerg situations again. (Or too much annoying absorb monsters, those can really turn a 1 min attack into a 1 min disaster)

They are excpetional.I feel no exaggeration what so ever. Can you do it without them? Yah. But it'll go a lot faster with them. I'm talking about T~3 Voidwatch mobs, Like say Voidwrought, Where having Earthern Armor/Scherzo is imperative.

As far as them being useless in a zerg, Alexander aside, I can't see very many things being "Zergable" in the near future without Alexander.If the current pattern keeps up almost all mobs will build Souleater Resistance, and Stun resistance, and come equipped with horrible AoEs.

I don't know what you could do for the SMN job during a zerg-fight TBH, It slips my mind :|

Bubeeky

07-26-2011, 04:46 AM

hasn't it always been that some jobs were useless and other jobs were god-like, depending on what content was popular at the time?

Karbuncle

07-26-2011, 04:49 AM

Yah, Ever since RoTZ

Alhanelem

07-26-2011, 04:57 AM

Oh would you stop talking when you don't understand anything you read Alhanhelem? Oh would you stop slandering people when they clearly do understand what they read Khajiit? You're coming off as bright as your namesake race from Oblivion. If you say one thing but mean another, you need to make it more *&^#$ing obvious. Otherwise, it makes you look like your story is changing. Your main strategy with anyone is to attack the person and claim they didn't/couldn't read when clearly they did or they wouldn't have posted.

You said alexander was SMN's "main use." That's not even true at all, even if it's the only thing the best of the best like about it.

Karbuncle

07-26-2011, 04:58 AM

Malamasa said SMN had no use in a Zerg fight

He Said they had Alexander for Zerg fights.

Edit: He says "Summoner's main use is Zerg fights... thanks to alexander" so now its a toss up.

Darkwizardzin

07-26-2011, 05:31 AM

DRK is useless

It's all cyclical. The playerbase's perception of each job and their individual desirability rose and fell over the years and will continue to do so in the future.

Seems like Eeek's statment is very true to me.

Gokku

07-26-2011, 05:55 AM

MNK struggled to get invites in the skillchain-MB era.

i refer to these days as the dark ages because drks were god tier distortion making dd's. and it was normal to spend 2-3 days LFG before finally getting an invite.

Zatias

07-26-2011, 08:34 AM

JUST GET A WHM AND A MNK AND DUO IT!!! mentality. ^^;

All jobs are useful in their own ways. It's the people who lower their "use" in the above mentality.

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 08:51 AM

Yeah.

It's not because the slot is better filled by a WHM NIN WAR BLM BLU BRD, but that SMN can contribute SO MUCH to Abyssea play.

Panthera

07-26-2011, 08:59 AM

Meanwhile, back on topic...

Whether it's even true or not that only certain jobs are worthwhile to level because of Abyssea, what remains true about FFXI is what has always been true of FFXI, that is that it's evolving and constantly in flux. Before you know it, the cap will be raised again--and again--and there will be new content, be it mini-expanions or a full blown expansion, to provide content for the new levels. The same jobs may shine again, or different jobs might, or just maybe all jobs will be invaluable. Come what may, level jobs you'll enjoy playing, because that's the only way to be happy playing this game.

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 09:11 AM

Hayward

07-26-2011, 11:38 AM

Or, level whatever job is currently "bandwagon" and enjoy being the best at the time.

Or, just level every job. It would take what, 1.5 weeks?

Then again, some of us don't enjoy being chameleons who mindlessly follow the trendy elite and the talking points that come from their foghorn-like mouths. Some of us play various jobs for our own enjoyment and not to be one of the "cool kids".

To the thread starter, any of the 20 jobs can be fully functional if you're committed to making it so. Take the ramblings of so-called "experts" with a Stonehenge-sized grain of salt.

Olor

07-26-2011, 11:47 AM

Tons of jobs are viable for tons of things. If you aren't a proc job/healer you may have trouble getting PUG invites, but you're better off hanging with your friends anyway.

Meyi

07-26-2011, 11:48 AM

BLM is definitely a very wanted and desired job right now. And although SMN is not very useful as it currently stands, there are many people who are on SMN gear, such as seals and +2 items.

I'd have to say BLM NIN WAR are the top three most desired jobs, mainly for all the proccing in abyssea. Then of course THF MNK WHM are equally wanted. BLU as well, but now it only has one proc spell instead of two.

Duelle

07-26-2011, 11:56 AM

People want their favorite job to be the god of everything, which apparently means no other job deserves an update.You have to admit that people like that are fueled by the job exclusion bit. I wouldn't go so far as saying "god of everything", though. Just something you can play without questions asked. At least, that's how I look at things.

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 12:25 PM

I ran a low-man LS for about 5 months. I had a member who had WHM WAR RDM DRG SMN COR and many others

Guess what job she always came as?

WHM.

Not because COR sucks, but because it's almost 80% useless in abyssea. The only time she used it was when I got my Ukonvasara so we could play around with WAR+COR+BRD.

If I'm trying to get something done with 5 people I'm not going to ask you to come PUP. I'm going to ask you to come WHM, WAR, NIN, BLM, or BRD.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying don't play your favorite job. I'm saying that your favorite job isn't what I, and dozens of other party/LS leaders are going to ask you for.

There's no harm in spending 2 days to get 90 and AF3+1 on a Abyssea-Useful job.

The rest of you can keep your head in the clouds, but how many times have you sent a tell to a PUG saying "HI Please invite me. <job>=90SMN/45RDM," and gotten turned away?

I'm being realistic. That's the way the game has always been. "Our LS is only looking for RDM" "Our LS is only looking for TH4 THF" sound familiar? Probably because it's what you heard for the 5 years before Abyssea.

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 12:28 PM

Tsukino_Kaji

07-26-2011, 12:30 PM

Or, just level every job. It would take what, 1.5 weeks?It depends on how good you are at getting to 30, but 30-90 should only take about 5 hours.

Olor

07-26-2011, 12:37 PM

The rest of you can keep your head in the clouds, but how many times have you sent a tell to a PUG saying "HI Please invite me. <job>=90SMN/45RDM," and gotten turned away?

I'm being realistic.

You are being realistic.

It's why I am working on my whm

;)

That said, a lot can be done in unconventional groups with friends. Will it be a perfect set up? Nope. Is it easier to do it the conventional way? Yes.

But BST BST BLM can take down a lot of seal nms (and get procs)

/shrugs

SMN BST BLM would probably be even better with SMN's native MP pool they could use for healing (and I am sure they benefit more from the INT boost on MM than a BST/WHM does...)

But yeah, I've gotten enough rejection as a BST to realize that most players just want to do everything the easy (boring) way.

For a lot of mobs, I can't blame them. But, I have to say, I am happy to have friends I can play with on the jobs we love.

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 12:41 PM

A lot of Abyssea content (Seal farms, etc) can be done with unconventional setups. That's fine, if that's your goal.

I'm talking on higher end Abyssea content, Heroes +2 NMs, EFFICIENT Empyrean Weapon farming.

If you have a LS at your disposal, you can bring 18 people to do stuff for you. If not, then you're probably going to want to do things THE BEST way.

Alhanelem

07-26-2011, 12:53 PM

I'm being realistic. That's the way the game has always been. "Our LS is only looking for RDM" "Our LS is only looking for TH4 THF" sound familiar? Probably because it's what you heard for the 5 years before Abyssea. The thing is, this is a problem. Every job should be able to be worth enough that an LS could be seen asking for it. Otherwise, there's not a lot of point in those unpicked jobs existing.

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 12:57 PM

The thing is, this is a problem. Every job should be able to be worth enough that an LS could be seen asking for it. Otherwise, there's not a lot of point in those unpicked jobs existing.

I'm not saying it's not. I'm just putting it how it is.

Kimble

07-26-2011, 01:00 PM

Having every job have a purpose and use in every single event only makes sense if FFXI didnt allow you to freely change your jobs at no cost. They didnt design the game with it in mind that players will get attracted to one job and one job only.

Well X job might not be good in Y event, X job can be good in Z event.

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 01:02 PM

It's still balance problems, at the moment there are jobs (HI PUP) that are pretty useless in every situation party-wise

Tsukino_Kaji

07-26-2011, 01:04 PM

If not, then you're probably going to want to do things THE BEST way.You mean soloing gold on thf?

Kimble

07-26-2011, 01:05 PM

It's still balance problems, at the moment there are jobs (HI PUP) that are pretty useless in every situation party-wise

Voidwatch.

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 01:27 PM

Voidwatch.

I'd rather fill the slot with something else.

Rearden

07-26-2011, 01:34 PM

As an aspiring PUP who wants to "be useful" in the new endgame activities...could you explain to me what my role could be in Voidwatch? I'm having a tough time convincing my LS leaders of my value and it really sucks :(

Kimble

07-26-2011, 01:36 PM

Still has a spot in voidwatch.

Automoton has its own proc for weakness in voidwatch to build lights. Im not sure but I dont believe you can simply /pup like you can /mnk for mnk JA triggers.

Could just have a PUP go PUP/MNK and cover JA + h2h procs.

Rearden

07-26-2011, 01:48 PM

I don't mean to be rude because I really wanna go do Voidwatch on my PUP (Just finished getting AF3 seals for all pieces, not to just farm those darn feet! :( ) but it kind of sounds like you haven't used PUP in Voidwatch...could you be more specific or maybe give me a brief layout to portray to my LS leaders? ^^;

Sparthos

07-26-2011, 02:03 PM

If you haven't done Voidwatch, just think Abyssea except the procs are basically a huge pool of skills. The goal is to hit as many triggers as possible before killing the mob if you desire to see any drops.

For instance, you might get a prompt calling for an automaton weaponskill as a weakness. You'd then have to use weaponskills till you hit the proc. It could be any WS on any frame.

I don't believe Voidwatch has garnered enough interest to actually find out if only certain WSs trigger so for now you'd just have to operate under the assumption that it could be anything.

Lucky for you, there is no timing element in Abyssea so you are free to try so long as the mob has HP.

Puppetmaster JAs can also be a proc, Ventriloquy to be exact. You could cover a majority of h2h WS triggers in addition to PUP JAs and automaton weaponskills.

It is one of the few events where you actually need a wide variety of classes because you don't want to end up with a situation where you cannot hit any staggers due to lack of job variety.

Kimble

07-26-2011, 02:18 PM

Pretty much what Sparthos said.

Selzak

07-26-2011, 02:32 PM

Substitute DNC for SMN and yeah pretty much. I wouldn't say those are the only jobs that work, but they're the best ones. After that there are some jobs that are at least worth putting equipment on, but I'd say that currently there are more jobs than ever that can barely even be taken out in public.

Alhanelem

07-26-2011, 03:20 PM

Having every job have a purpose and use in every single eventI'm not asking that every job be equally beneficial at all events, however all jobs should have an overall roughly equal value as a whole when considering all events and activities together. Its fine for jobs to be better in some events than others, but when your job is only wanted for one or two things, and even then for only one out of many things that your job provides, there's a problem.

Warriors and monks are generally useful for everything. White mages are generally useful for everything. BLM are generally useful for everything Bards are generally useful for everything. The most popular DDs are generally useful whenever physical damage is needed. Summoner is generally *wanted* (not to say its not good for anything else) for 1 out of 12 of its 2 hour abilities, and little else. PUP can be lumped in with the DDs, but isn't the number one performer, so it gets tossed to the wayside. DRK gets tossed to the wayside and none of what it offers that is unique is especially desired. PLD has been tossed to the wayside in favor of the best DDs doing the tanking. Thief is generally not wanted outside of treasure hunter. DNC and SCH are mostly fine, though no one really goes "OMG there's a DNC or SCH, get him!"

So what we have here is about 25% of all jobs that are generally desired for a group or linkshell; probably 50% that aren't universally sought after but are probably fine the way they are, and 25% that are generally left in the dust and not regarded as useful for very many things. Some jobs will always be wanted more than others, but this gap could be closed a little bit (And statistically, it has closed a little bit recently, according to the Census, with the top few jobs having a smaller % share, and the bottom 3 jobs all having a larger % share).

Summoners, outside of one ability in a few specific situations, do not stand out for any event, and probably have the shortest end of the stick out of all jobs right now (Probably, thief is right behind it, because people I know only want it for treasure hunter and not really for anything else it does)

Meyi

07-26-2011, 04:32 PM

If you haven't done Voidwatch, just think Abyssea except the procs are basically a huge pool of skills. The goal is to hit as many triggers as possible before killing the mob if you desire to see any drops.

(...)

I don't believe Voidwatch has garnered enough interest to actually find out if only certain WSs trigger so for now you'd just have to operate under the assumption that it could be anything.

I hope that either a, we don't figure out all of the specific triggers, or b, there are so many that it really is a large pool like we currently speculate. It's nice thinking that there's an event where any job could be helpful.

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 05:27 PM

I hope Voidwatch gets some worth-while drops.

Inb4 Empyrean upgrades to 95 come from Voidwatch, while the event itself still drops situational goodness, and otherwise crap.

Glamdring

07-26-2011, 05:53 PM

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 05:54 PM

Glamdring

07-26-2011, 06:04 PM

if a player can't make ANY job good then they aren't a GOOD player...

Zatias

07-26-2011, 06:11 PM

When good players play good jobs it cancels out.

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 06:24 PM

if a player can't make ANY job good then they aren't a GOOD player...

Ok I agree, any job can be "good"

Not any job can be the best though. That's just irrefutable.

Vagrua

07-26-2011, 08:16 PM

I think the more experience you get from playing a job, the better you get at it.

Malamasala

07-26-2011, 08:17 PM

I should probably mention, even if it is late, that when I referred to zergs and SMN not being useful, it was all the fights where all you need is soul voice. I've done this on for example Einherjar bosses, KV, Kirin (though it could perhaps help with Alexander there).

Alexander is of course useful for the more rarer fights, like AV or PW.

Glamdring

07-27-2011, 12:37 AM

Ok I agree, any job can be "good"

Not any job can be the best though. That's just irrefutable.

problem is, define "best". different jobs do different things. Throw out the Atmas and their game balance destroying nature and just get down to a job-to-job comparisson. Nukers, ok, that's blm and noone is likely to even try to Refute that. Party support-I vote bard, but some may argue corsair and technically even whm and rdm deserve to be in that discussion. Enfeeblers-I still vote rdm, but I know a few blues that would like to have a word with me. I split DD, Single strike DD I would say Sam, with dark and 'goon right there behind them; damage by accumulation is monk, although thief and dancer can come VERY close. Tanking-sorry folks, without the Atma I still say it's pally. Ranged damage, obviously ranger. Pet jobs, I still say beast, but barely considering pup's range of damage (beast doesn't even have a magic damaging pet, unless they charm a hecteyes or a worm) and summoner can use avatars that are immune to damage types, exploit elemental weakness and get a new pet without spending thousands on a new jug but in the absence of Atma charm is back, making this a different story.

Then you have the issues of being "1-trick ponies". Many jobs are awesome... in the right fight. Once you take them out of that comfort zone they are gonna be screaming for help. SE has put in many battles that do just that. Nins hold themselves out as great tanks, but there are fights where your shadows are done in about1-2 seconds and without them nin doesn't take damage very well, conversely pld can take a hit better than anybody but some mobs can 1-shot with that hit which is where nin shines. Think of all the fights where you keep the DD off entirely, using just a tank and all your DD coming from nukers/ranged attack-there's a reason a War isn't in there. I remember all the folks calling me for help on bard when they fought soulflayers because rdm Dispel always failed (and the blues were usually to close meleeing, so para'd themselves). The list goes on...

Neonii

07-27-2011, 01:37 AM

Then again, some of us don't enjoy being chameleons who mindlessly follow the trendy elite and the talking points that come from their foghorn-like mouths. Some of us play various jobs for our own enjoyment and not to be one of the "cool kids".

To the thread starter, any of the 20 jobs can be fully functional if you're committed to making it so. Take the ramblings of so-called "experts" with a Stonehenge-sized grain of salt.

But if you happen to have a "useless" job you enjoy prepare to do solo stuff. You won't be getting invites to be in the action. I'd say have a fun job you enjoy but also have a utility/work job to get invites (whm is nice for this in Abyssea in particular).

Rearden

07-27-2011, 01:45 AM

damage by accumulation is monk, although thief and dancer can come VERY close.

Stopped reading after that

Neonii

07-27-2011, 01:51 AM

Real life application:

What do you think would look better on your resume?

1 main that you're REALLY good at, but isn't applicable for the job at hand
or
I'm capable of doing this, but I'm only using it to further my main.

I agree with this but I find it very sad. What it comes down to to is spending your fun/leisure time playing an applicable job at the expense of one you really enjoy and have fun on. IMO this kinda changes the game into work instead of play. That begs the question why would anyone want to have fun on a game? They could be playing a applicable (work) job instead.

Edit: The game design itself should be balanced as to where sure you spend some time on a work job (pay your dues) but also be able to play your fun job in a meaningful way. My last online game was designed with different ways to reach an objective with different jobs. Players were not boxed into playing work jobs all the time because we could design a strategy which included our fun job. FFx1 is very different from my last online game in that aspect.

Felren

07-27-2011, 01:55 AM

if a player can't make ANY job good then they aren't a GOOD player...

So there's only 5 jobs that work now?--- the question here is there are only 5 jobs that are useful now, not "good"

No matter how awesome of a non war or nin you are, you lack red procs and you are generally holding your low man group back on efficiency.

The funneling down to ~5 job trend isn't because they're the only good jobs, they're just the BEST at farming. Thanks to how abyssea procs are, dealing damage is not the issue. So I don't care how much damage a Drk can put out, you're still usually waiting on red proc to get KI from certain NMs, or yellow proc on other NMs. You're penalized for having more than a couple people on a mob as well, it becomes very difficult to proc when the mob is TP spamming. So you're better off low-manning, and there are just a few jobs that make the most efficient group lowman.

This is a big reason I haven't really bothered making an almace yet. I freakin love playing blue mage, and I don't want to be forced to play another job to farm pop sets solo. I can deal with playing other jobs in a group once in awhile, but I dont want to solo 25-40ish pop sets on ninja for a sword I want on blue mage..... even though I CAN solo the NMs on blue mage, red proccing as Blue mage is lacking.

This abyssea proc system frustrates me to no end..... In the old days you might be forced to play Blm or Smn on wyrms to get gear for other jobs. Now in abyssea most geared DDs could blood tank NMs and dish out great damage if they wanted to. So now that SE made it so you can KILL things without a specific group easier, they added procs that now make you choose between crappy drops/crappy KI rate and playing jobs you may not want to. Right when imbalance was about to be fixed they made it worse than it was before...... and I from the looks of dynamis/voidwatch the proc system is here to stay....joy

geekgirl101

07-27-2011, 03:15 AM

RDMs have a place still if they have Phalanx II and v2 enfeebles. Refresh II is also pretty nice for the mana-consuming classes like SMN and BLM. It leaves little else though for RDMs to do at endgame since Cure IV generates a huge amount of enmity even with enmity reducing atmas.

Neonii

07-27-2011, 03:17 AM

So there's only 5 jobs that work now?--- the question here is there are only 5 jobs that are useful now, not "good"

No matter how awesome of a non war or nin you are, you lack red procs and you are generally holding your low man group back on efficiency.

The funneling down to ~5 job trend isn't because they're the only good jobs, they're just the BEST at farming. Thanks to how abyssea procs are, dealing damage is not the issue. So I don't care how much damage a Drk can put out, you're still usually waiting on red proc to get KI from certain NMs, or yellow proc on other NMs. You're penalized for having more than a couple people on a mob as well, it becomes very difficult to proc when the mob is TP spamming. So you're better off low-manning, and there are just a few jobs that make the most efficient group lowman.

This is a big reason I haven't really bothered making an almace yet. I freakin love playing blue mage, and I don't want to be forced to play another job to farm pop sets solo. I can deal with playing other jobs in a group once in awhile, but I dont want to solo 25-40ish pop sets on ninja for a sword I want on blue mage..... even though I CAN solo the NMs on blue mage, red proccing as Blue mage is lacking.

This abyssea proc system frustrates me to no end..... In the old days you might be forced to play Blm or Smn on wyrms to get gear for other jobs. Now in abyssea most geared DDs could blood tank NMs and dish out great damage if they wanted to. So now that SE made it so you can KILL things without a specific group easier, they added procs that now make you choose between crappy drops/crappy KI rate and playing jobs you may not want to. Right when imbalance was about to be fixed they made it worse than it was before...... and I from the looks of dynamis/voidwatch the proc system is here to stay....joy

A day in the life of this Summoner:
It's like this work all day get home do chores. Now I can log on and am usually asked to play whm which I don't like as well but can tolerate. If all goes well I can collect things for smn while playing whm. Now maybe just maybe I can solo on smn which to me is pure fun. The ratio of playtime spent leans heavy toward whm vs. smn, but hey i'm practical. I just wish more if my time at events ect could be spent on smn. The lore and aspects of smn fascinate me. IMO the motivation to play an online game (or any game) is fun, and leisure. Being boxed into whm or some other " useful" job 90% of the time detracts from that IMO.

Duelle

07-27-2011, 04:24 AM

But if you happen to have a "useless" job you enjoy prepare to do solo stuff. You won't be getting invites to be in the action. I'd say have a fun job you enjoy but also have a utility/work job to get invites (whm is nice for this in Abyssea in particular).I will just channel the discontents and say "it really shouldn't be that way, as it negates player choice". Yes, I'm aware the game has been purposely designed like that, but it doesn't make it any less wrong.

Panthera

07-27-2011, 05:13 AM

If all goes well I can collect things for smn while playing whm. Now maybe just maybe I can solo on smn which to me is pure fun. The ratio of playtime spent leans heavy toward whm vs. smn, but hey i'm practical.

There's jobs you get gear for, and jobs you get gear with.

Job balances not withstanding, some of this is just linkshell's recruitment policies.

Myself, I had a policy that everyone had to have a mage job of some kind, or had to be able to participate in a manaburn. It was just more efficient. An ideal player had both a mage job and a melee job, so as to split limbus zones. I couldn't count the number of Thieves who needed Homam, but the only job they had... was Thief.

Leonlionheart

07-27-2011, 05:31 AM

I'm going to say it again. This is fact.

Point 1)
1 NM drops 3 of one particular +2 item, and 1 of 3 other +2 items. That's 1~6 per fight.
Bring 18 people to a fight, that's 1 person getting 1 thing per THREE fights.
Bring 6 people to a fight, that's 1 person getting something every fight.

Point 2)
You need BLM BLU BRD NIN to successfully get yellow
You need WHM to survive
You need WAR and NIN to get red
If you don't have these jobs you have a larger chance of wasting your time.

Thus is the nature of Abyssea. You can't just waltz on in and get something with PUP DRK DRK RDM SCH, though it's possible, but it would just be such a waste of time in comparison to having the ideal set up IN ABYSSEA.

Laitha

07-27-2011, 06:19 AM

Honestly BST is awesome if you like killing zone bosses, ironclades, and soloing your AF3+1/+2 for various jobs (not just bst).

Leonlionheart

07-27-2011, 06:35 AM

Honestly BST is awesome if you like killing zone bosses, ironclades, and soloing your AF3+1/+2 for various jobs (not just bst).

Eh, inefficiently. It can do it, solo, but in the end it would take longer than shouting for a pick up group

Glamdring

08-17-2011, 02:21 AM

Stopped reading after that

you can read?

Zumi

08-17-2011, 02:47 AM

You are forgetting thf for drops.

Sparthos

08-17-2011, 03:09 AM

You are forgetting thf for drops.

Which can be replaced by RNG w/Bounty Shot or a BST with Dipper Yuly.

Karbuncle

08-17-2011, 03:23 AM

or anyone /THF, considering the insignificant/unnoticeable difference between TH2, and TH12

Sparthos

08-17-2011, 03:30 AM

Exactly.

I haven't seen SE show so much contempt for a class since BST.

Ketaru

08-17-2011, 05:04 AM

Exactly.

I haven't seen SE show so much contempt for a class since BST.

SE has been updated to be more of a whole job ever since Abyssea. The playerbase has compensated for this however, I've never felt more hatred for the job from other players than I do now.

Not because it's a strong job mind you. But because people love to talk about it in terms of inefficiency and inconvenience to everybody else.

scaevola

08-18-2011, 03:10 AM

all JOBS are useful, not all PLAYERS are. level what feels good, put some polish on your playskill, develop a style that works for you. Good players will find you, bad players will continue to be stuck in the corner they've paited themselves into... screwed when they need the help of your chosen job and they don't HAVE one in their closed group.

A novice player will not get the experience with a given event to figure out what they need to do to shine as an unfavored job if they never get the opportunity to go to that event because they only have unfavored jobs.

Alaik

08-18-2011, 06:52 AM

That and I know back at 75 my endgame LS absolutely cried when a BST refused to do anything with us when we "got stuck in a corner". The problem is it's not a constant cycle of best melee/mage. It was RDM/BLM/RNG/BRD/WAR for the first few years then WHM/RDM/SAM/WAR/BRD for the rest. Also, no, abyssea doesn't count given ANY job can duo the content with a mage. You couldn't low man some of the old events without some of SE's favorite jobs being on board.

Gennadi

08-18-2011, 11:31 AM

Just starting again, after about a year break, and it seems (from reading the forums) that mnk, nin, war, whm, and smn are the only ones that people seem to say are worth while now.

I know abys. is out now, and i've not had a chance to experience it, but from what it seems if you arn't worth while there you arn't worth while any where.

".

Heres one for the record:

Beastmaster is da best cause no other job can call beast so ya lol(placeallotherjobshereplease)

End of the record.

The above was for humorous purposes only. Dont call your mom and complain

Dallas

08-18-2011, 01:25 PM

No matter how awesome of a non war or nin you are, you lack red procs and you are generally holding your low man group back on efficiency.

Empy weapons, the only items in Abyssea that will survive to 99, don't need practically any procs. They need amber light, pearl light, and /THF. There will come a day when people are sad they spent so long waiting for that guy to switch to BLU for procs.

Leonlionheart

08-18-2011, 07:27 PM

Emp weapons, without a WAR and NIN in party, can only go about half as fast as just having amber light.

Being able to claim and red for the KI you need to fill the holes in your Amber farming speeds things up significantly.

Tahrongi Canyon, probably the most desired Empyrean Weapon zone has 8 KI all used to spawn Emp NMs, and an addition 2 that are dropped from the Emp NMs. That means you have a low chance of getting the last KI you need from a chest. Usually you will find it faster to just pop/camp the NM you need to fill in the hole, in which case you still need both NIN and WAR.

Not to mention WAR is by far the best DD in the game (even outside Abyssea). NIN is probably the third best inside abyssea also, and it has tons of utility outside of DD and red too; you need it during slashing for blue and you need, at the least, /nin for yellow. It can also tank 90% of Abyssea NMs.

Karinya_of_Carbuncle

08-18-2011, 09:03 PM

Summoners, outside of one ability in a few specific situations, do not stand out for any event, and probably have the shortest end of the stick out of all jobs right now (Probably, thief is right behind it, because people I know only want it for treasure hunter and not really for anything else it does)

PLD and COR would like a word with you. Being useful for one thing is much better than being useful for zero things, because people will sometimes still let you get drops when you're only there for one thing.

Aside from the OP leaving out BLM (nobody wants to do anything without BLM), they're basically correct. It's hard to believe SE wouldn't have known exactly what they were doing when they made half the yellow spells for 7/8 days of the week available to BLM, and half of those BLM-exclusive, while jobs like RDM and SCH have no job-exclusive yellow proc spells whatsoever and thus, add nothing to a group that has BLM (which, like I said, everyone does).

I'm prepared to cut them some slack on healing -- they may genuinely not have expected 0-mitigation "tanks" that need constant cure v/vi bombing to live to become so popular and reduce non-whm healers to "not really a healer at all". (It's here now and they'd better have a plan to deal with it, though. The overwhelming power of DDs in abyssea forces them to dominate the hate rankings whether they want to or not, so if it's even possible to keep them alive, ipso facto, they are the new tanks and pld is useless junk, a relic of a game where it was possible to control enmity by some way other than dealing more damage.)

Ryce

08-18-2011, 10:37 PM

To the OP - Don't listen to anyone who says certain jobs are no good anymore. Yes, there are huge advantages in Abyssea to certain jobs, but you don't HAVE to be one of those jobs. Play they job you like the most and make friends. Chances are, someone in your circle will have the jobs you need to get things done. In the process, you might become fond of one of those more "useful" jobs in Abyssea, and level that up too.

Dallas

08-19-2011, 12:21 AM

Tahrongi Canyon, probably the most desired Empyrean Weapon zone

Not to mention WAR is by far the best DD in the game (even outside Abyssea)
OP, is this the problem? Cookie cutter elitists?

There are only a few mobs in the game that can only die to a war, and they all exist in solo war bcnm.

Leonlionheart

08-19-2011, 02:20 PM

I'm just stating fact. You can argue that something is better, but you can't beat out simple math.

WAR might not have utility like MNK and NIN do, other than red procs, but there's no possible way to beat it in terms of DD (except MAYBE Ryunohige DRGs).

There's no way around this fact. It's not like I'm telling you to play WAR, just letting you know that it is indeed the best at dealing damage, and that this fact is indisputable.

In abyssea you can play whatever you want, as long as somewhere in your party you have a WAR+NIN+WHM and, depending on your goal, a MNK, or a BLU+BLM/BRD or BLU+BLM+BRD. With just those jobs you can complete any task, and get the most efficiency out of your time spent. Can SMNx3 do the same thing? Yes. It will just take significantly longer.

Dallas

08-19-2011, 02:25 PM

I believe you have told me to switch to WAR several times. I dare say, you can't shut up about the job our your weapon. Getting you to talk about another job? Not gonna happen.

Raksha

08-19-2011, 02:36 PM

I believe you have told me to switch to WAR several times. I dare say, you can't shut up about the job our your weapon. Getting you to talk about another job? Not gonna happen.

Quoted for massive hypocrisy.

Leonlionheart

08-19-2011, 02:42 PM

I believe you have told me to switch to WAR several times. I dare say, you can't shut up about the job our your weapon. Getting you to talk about another job? Not gonna happen.

Switch to the job that fills the role you need done, don't just use the same job on everything I think is what you're trying to put into my mouth.

I.E. WAR to DD
SMN to Kite+Kill
PLD to tank Voidwatch,
etc.

Dallas

08-19-2011, 02:43 PM

Quoted for massive hypocrisy.

That word doesn't mean what you want it to.

SpankWustler

08-19-2011, 02:43 PM

I dare say, you can't shut up about the job or your weapon.

Best. Joke. Ever.

Leonlionheart

08-19-2011, 02:45 PM

That word doesn't mean what you want it to.

He means that you can't shut up about SMN or Hvergelmir either.

I understand, I like my emp.

but I switch to WHM when we need heals, or BLM when we need stun/nukes/yellow, or MNK when we need tank/blue.

Dallas

08-19-2011, 02:45 PM

Switch to the job that fills the role you need done, don't just use the same job on everything I think is what you're trying to put into my mouth.

I.E. WAR to DD
SMN to Kite+Kill
PLD to tank Voidwatch,
etc.

Except that WAR is not needed to DD. WAR is what you prance around on in forums. Prance for us!

Leonlionheart

08-19-2011, 02:47 PM

Except that WAR is not needed to DD. WAR is what you prance around on in forums. Prance for us!

:\ well in that case nothing is NEEDED to DD is it?

WAR, on the other hand, is needed for the lowest-manned red procs.

Dallas

08-19-2011, 02:50 PM

He means that you can't shut up about SMN or Hvergelmir either.

I understand, I like my emp.

but I switch to WHM when we need heals, or BLM when we need stun/nukes/yellow, or MNK when we need tank/blue.
When you were a kid, you only chewed on the red, yellow, and blue crayons, huh?

Dallas

08-19-2011, 03:01 PM

:\ well in that case nothing is NEEDED to DD is it?

WAR, on the other hand, is needed for the lowest-manned red procs.

Because "lowest-manned" is a need, not a sign of a lack of friends.

Leonlionheart

08-19-2011, 03:13 PM

Because "lowest-manned" is a need, not a sign of a lack of friends.

You can take in 10 people to do the job of 5, if you really wanted to.

Malamasala

08-19-2011, 03:26 PM

PLD and COR would like a word with you. Being useful for one thing is much better than being useful for zero things, because people will sometimes still let you get drops when you're only there for one thing.

It isn't that PLD is bad, it is that WAR is better. People need to notice the small details like this. It isn't like PLD has a global blood pact timer or something holding them back, it is that they don't wield a Great Axe empyrean. Same with COR, it is a great job, but if you are going to get a support you might as well take a BRD since it is better.

Which is kind of why this topic exists. You only need the 3-5 best jobs, all other jobs could be removed because nobody likes "inefficient" jobs that aren't best.

Leonlionheart

08-19-2011, 03:49 PM

It isn't that PLD is bad, it is that WAR is better. People need to notice the small details like this. It isn't like PLD has a global blood pact timer or something holding them back, it is that they don't wield a Great Axe empyrean. Same with COR, it is a great job, but if you are going to get a support you might as well take a BRD since it is better.

Which is kind of why this topic exists. You only need the 3-5 best jobs, all other jobs could be removed because nobody likes "inefficient" jobs that aren't best.

while I agree with the post in general, it's not necessarily Ukon that makes WAR great, but rather the incredibly high attack. Berserk is the most potent attack-related ability (you could argue that Impetus is better considering it's other effects) and it's really what makes WAR shine. Also having high innate DA, Crit DMG bonus, easy accuracy, and Blood Rage doesn't hurt the job either.

Kimble

08-19-2011, 06:18 PM

I dont think a WAR is going to out tank a PLD on VM NMs so comparing them from a DD standpoint makes no sense.

Also, COR brings different thigns to the table than BRD does atm. Regain roll is more hopeful for VW than marches. (though brd is still great for the tank party)

Karinya_of_Carbuncle

08-19-2011, 09:05 PM

Well, I haven't done any voidwatch because nobody wants to do voidwatch on my server because it has negligible rewards compared to abyssea. It certainly does seem possible that some of the worst balance problems right now are abyssea-specific (e.g. BLM having a truckload of proc spells and RDM and SCH having literally no job-specific ones), so non-abyssea content could have uses for more jobs that are unwanted in abyssea parties (especially the nm hunting that seems to take up 90% of most players' time right now).

Empy-specific balance problems, on the other hand, are likely to spill over into the post-90 content no matter what it is, unless SE makes empyreal WS only usable in abyssea, which would piss off a lot of people so they're very unlikely to do it. (Even without the WS, the weapons would still be strong, but a lot less game-breaking.)

Also, I partly agree with Leon about WAR -- it's a strong job even with an ordinary weapon -- but it wouldn't have the game-dominating status it does without the proc system. The difference between WAR and another DD in damage terms is just not that large or significant; the difference between WAR and another DD in proc availability terms is enormous.