Confessions of a Leech

[Seyrena]

After getting RDM to 90, I set about leveling several subjobs and other main job interests. In doing so, I have found a way to provide a symbiotic service to my Gusgen Mines GoV party. I level sync for them while I go to work. So long as they don't let me become the leader so that I have to be phased out, I sit there gaining 10~15 EXP per kill while they make upwards of 1300 every six kills. I act as a perpetual sync that doesn't need to be changed. As I leech my way up through the upper 10's and lower 20's, my party can vault themselves upwards into the 40s and 50s. It's no problem for me, as around 25, I become active again and fight up to around 35 at which point I can go to Crawler's Nest.

I understand that some are opposed to this style of play, but I hate levelling through the 15~25 range, so it is mutually beneficial. Everybody wins.

What do you think? For? Against? Why?

[Korpg]

More power to you.

[Aurara]

I hate 1-30 personally.

[Vold]

I have no problem playing shady on mage jobs, assuming I ever get the chance. I refuse to level them except I was sort of forced to with the whm sub for brd. Assuming I ever bother with another one for sub I will absolutely do everything I can to leech them but I don't plan on it simply because it would suck to skill up magic post leeching. Melee-ish jobs on the other hand I quite enjoy playing at low levels as I treat it as a break from capped jobs, up until it's not very practical anymore to do so due to increasingly large TNLs.

To date I have never leeched any of my jobs unless you count BRD opening chests and giving up BRDing eventually because your songs never hit anyone anyway. If I ever get the opportunity I probably will leech my sam and bst just to finish them already as they have been stuck at 66 and 60 for years. Everything else is pretty far down that I'll probably never get around to playing because I don't like the idea of retiring jobs to play other jobs because of space limitations.

Ultimately I have no problem with leechers. I've thrown 7 years of my life away on this game. As far as I am concerned I earned my right to Abyssea style content. Yeah, sure, it used to mean something to be capped level. It meant you sacrificed RL to some extent to achieve it. As a 75 you were even respected by players below you that felt it was a massive accomplishment. I look back on that and it's not something to be proud of. I sacrificed too much to accomplish my goals. What's done is done and I have to play catch up now in the real world. But as far as this game is concerned, I'm set for life now, and if I feel like leeching my ass off one day in an Abyssea group then by God I am going to fricking do it because of the countless hours, days, and weeks of my life that were lost trying to get groups that at best would be 4-6k per hour and last only a hour or two at best before it started to fall apart and reps would be called in and so on.

I do get tired of hearing about leech complaints and such. I'll bet anything that if this game's standard was still 4-6k exp per hour, it would have less than 50k players. Yeah good luck with your hardcore FFXI experience with those kinds of numbers to motivate anyone at SE to be serious about game additions. The challenge of a MMO should always be in the content and not the level grind. When the biggest accomplishment you do in a MMO is not beating end game content but reaching the level cap, there are problems with the game. Granted they went too far with Abyssea. ToAU exp was pretty well off and seemed almost the perfect match for a MMO grind experience. We just needed more options because the camps just weren't enough for everyone. But it's like when they decided to do the level cap raise they were basically giving up on this game with the idea that FFXI players are probably going to play the so called "FFXI-2" that people outside of beta thought it was going to be, so the only logical course of action to take was to make the game easier and more fun to keep people playing over the accomplishment ideals that stood in place for years.

But you know what? It's okay. At this point most of us have accepted that FFXI is stuck between a rock and a hard place because of it's PS2 origins. So long as the devs can come up with some kind of content for us to play with I'm sure there will be many years to come for the game. We may never see another expansion ever again. We may never see a PC graphical update. We will probably never again have a full year of hype and speculation before a major update to the game where everyday could be THE day you learn new information on that new expansion. Once you accept that you can move on and enjoy the game for what it is in the now.

In short: The exp leeching is a necessary evil at this point in the game's lifespan. Get over it, do it or don't do it, and move on.

[Leonlionheart]

I'd leach 1~90 if i could in one sitting

Then I'd gear and play better than 90% of the playerbase

[Aurara]

I'd leach 1~90 if i could in one sitting

Then I'd gear and play better than 90% of the playerbase

I did this with: brd whm blu mnk rng

[Leonlionheart]

Only bad players complain about leeches in my experience.

It's incredibly easy to gear a job now days, I myself just got 90 drg and drk and already have most of the best gear possible for them.

[Panthera]

I think it cheapens the value of having max level jobs, or jobs of any level really, for everyone. Every notice how people used to say "grats!" when people got their levels or merit points, and now they don't? It's because 1) exp is hyper inflated and 2) you don't have to work for it.

No offense, but I don't support this kind of thing.

[Korpg]

I think it cheapens the value of having max level jobs, or jobs of any level really, for everyone. Every notice how people used to say "grats!" when people got their levels or merit points, and now they don't? It's because 1) exp is hyper inflated and 2) you don't have to work for it.

No offense, but I don't support this kind of thing.

Does it really matter anymore? Or are you and Aku going to have a tirade about abyssea leeching again?

[Leonlionheart]

I think it cheapens the value of having max level jobs, or jobs of any level really, for everyone. Every notice how people used to say "grats!" when people got their levels or merit points, and now they don't? It's because 1) exp is hyper inflated and 2) you don't have to work for it.

No offense, but I don't support this kind of thing.

I had worked 1 year to get MNK 75, had it there for 5 before abyssea.

I had my time, I'm fine with this and not having to invest entire days into 2 levels

[Seyrena]

I think it cheapens the value of having max level jobs, or jobs of any level really, for everyone. Every notice how people used to say "grats!" when people got their levels or merit points, and now they don't? It's because 1) exp is hyper inflated and 2) you don't have to work for it.

No offense, but I don't support this kind of thing.The thing is, I don't leech through all my levels. I don't think leeching is the cause of cheapened accomplishments. Instead, it's GoV and Dom Ops themselves that are the direct cause of it.

Also, I don't do it for personal benefit alone. Yeah, having free exp from 15-25 is nice, but others benefit from my leeching by several orders of magnitude, whether it's providing sync in GoV parties, or keymastering in Abyssea.

[Octaviane]

I don't like it either and personally do not leech, but, I don't pay for other people's accounts. They have the right to do as they please. I (and many of my friends) prefer to enjoy the game on our own time and in our own way. When most everyone else is at level 99, we will still have things to do, how about you?

[Octaviane]

In all fairness too, I have friends who won't go into Abyssea until minimum level 65 - 70+ depending on the job they are working on. I think this is probably the best rule of thumb and I admire them for their choice. :)

[Seyrena]

In all fairness too, I have friends who won't go into Abyssea until minimum level 65 - 70+ depending on the job they are working on. I think this is probably the best rule of thumb and I admire them for their choice. :)

That is my choice as well. I will not leech ever past 70.

[Rearden]

I'm with the leech to 90 train, level into +2 gear and emp weapons, continue playing with select group, ignoring rest of the game.

[Panthera]

The thing is, I don't leech through all my levels. I don't think leeching is the cause of cheapened accomplishments. Instead, it's GoV and Dom Ops themselves that are the direct cause of it.

Also, I don't do it for personal benefit alone. Yeah, having free exp from 15-25 is nice, but others benefit from my leeching by several orders of magnitude, whether it's providing sync in GoV parties, or keymastering in Abyssea.

Please take none of this personally.^^ I'm not accusing you of leeching your way through the entire game or anything like that. This is just a handful of levels, not like cheating 30-90. I'd prefer none at all, but no one is perfect. This is a purely academic discussion (some people just flip out over it). That said...

Your arguement confounds means and ends. Sure, being a level sync designee enables others to get exp. You will have a useful subjob or max level job--for which you could get gear, I might add, so this isn't exactly selfless, not that that's your contention. This discussion has been had else where in adjusting the level cap threads. To recap, the levels earned do not reflect one's own work, so it is false representation; it deprives someone else that same level of a spot in the party who'd be willing to work for it; evade the leveling process; and isn't entirely an honest way of going about getting exp. Leeching is cheating, a bad means, though it has a few good ends that benefit others.

I don't much care for keymastering one's way to 90 from any level, but at least it's doing something, even if it isn't combat related. Do-nothing leeching, which this is, cheapens other people's levels. I'm soloing through the very levels you mentioned. But saying "I have job X at level y," is not praise-worthy, because that can be gotten just standing around afk. Saying,"I solo'd to level Y" is praise-worthy, because the work is self-evident. This is why I disagree with you about how AFKIng cheapens job levels, in addition to the hyper-inflated exp.

But, I do like to see that people have some kind of ethics about leeching, and apply some kind of rules to it, rather than leeching all of one's levels, when buying an account would be nearly the same thing.

[Korpg]

Sorry, but cheating 30-90?

[cidbahamut]

Every notice how people used to say "grats!" when people got their levels or merit points, and now they don't?

It was dumb at 75 and it's just as dumb now. Nothing has changed in that regard.

[Panthera]

It was dumb at 75 and it's just as dumb now. Nothing has changed in that regard.
You support your argument beautifully.

[Olor]

Eh, I have to say, seeing the train wreck that XIV is, and the horrific grind of it, and the foolish players who defend the poor design based on the outdated idea that "exp is hard" - I think leeching levels is no big deal. I would rather play this game in the state it is, where leeching levels is easy (and even in some cases beneficial to the group) than go through XIV or play the XI that was before, where I spent years never breaking 50 (part of that was being forced to start new chars, but I had some of those chars from 8-10 months never breaking 50).

I'm having a lot more fun now. As an XIV refugee as well as a former player of the XI that was, I love the way XI is now and I heartily oppose anyone who wants the grind back.

[Leonlionheart]

I have a few questions for the players that think that leeching is bad:

1) Have you ever defeated Genbu?
2) Have you ever defeated Proto-Omega?
3) Do you know where the entrance of Einherjar is?
4) Have you ever defeated Pantokrator without a brew?
5) How many jobs do you have at a previous level cap? 75? 90?
6) Have you ever used a "First Voke" SATA method on any monster above level 80 (Greater Colibri are 83 IIRC)
7) Have you ever not done anything but Penta Thrust spam on any monster above level 85? (bad wording, figure it out)
8th and Final) Did anything you learned in your 3~8 months of getting from level 10 to 75 help you fight against Kirin?

If all of your answers from 1~4 are no, you have no right to talk.

If your answer for 5 was less than 3, you need to go leech god damnit.

If your answers from 6~8 are yes, you are a liar, and need to go have a good talk with your mother, because I'm sure she'd be quite displeased.

[Korpg]

I have a few questions for the players that think that leeching is bad:

1) Have you ever defeated Genbu?
2) Have you ever defeated Proto-Omega?
3) Do you know where the entrance of Einherjar is?
4) Have you ever defeated Pantokrator without a brew?
5) How many jobs do you have at a previous level cap? 75? 90?
6) Have you ever used a "First Voke" SATA method on any monster above level 80 (Greater Colibri are 83 IIRC)
7) Have you ever not done anything but Penta Thrust spam on any monster above level 85? (bad wording, figure it out)
8th and Final) Did anything you learned in your 3~8 months of getting from level 10 to 75 help you fight against Kirin?

If all of your answers from 1~4 are no, you have no right to talk.

If your answer for 5 was less than 3, you need to go leech god damnit.

If your answers from 6~8 are yes, you are a liar, and need to go have a good talk with your mother, because I'm sure she'd be quite displeased.

1. Yes, several hundred times.
2. See answer one.
3. Yes, died to imps too many times.
4. Yes, it was a blast! Best. Fight. Ever.
5. Um... SMN/RDM/BLM/BRD/SAM/WAR at 75. WAR/BLM/SMN/WHM/BLU at 90. So yeah. 6 when the cap turned 80, 5 at the moment.
6. Hell no!
7. Does Raging Rush spam count?
8. Actually, yes. (Back in the day before zergs) When a stupid PLD decided to kite Kirin next to freshly weakened people who were all raised from Astral Flow deathga, and I was the only one out of range, guess who kited with Carby and Garuda to recover and eventually get the win.....and the wind crystal to drop! If it wasn't for the fact that I soloed my SMN by blowing up bombs instead of being a gimp WHM, that would have been a wipe instead of a recovery.

So Leon, how did I fair in your Cosmo Quiz?

[Octaviane]

1 - Genbu defeated so many times, not even funny.
2 - Proto - Omega defeated many times over and Proto - Ultima
3 - Hazhalm Training Grounds - Caedarva Mire close to the Graveyard with Orderly Imps, Skeletons and Chigoes.
4 - No
5 - 4 jobs at 75 and one at 72 prior to the introduction of Abyssea - After? 5 jobs at 90 and one at 77 (BLU) which was not leeched - levelled in the traditional manner.
6 - No - but have pre 75
7 - Don't have Dragoon levelled, nor polearm skilled on any job that can use it.
8 - Yes, I learned how to maximize and utilize my skills and gear learned and earned to be a part of a team that could bring Kirin down in a 14 member, 69 second Kirin burn. This before level 90 of course and some members not yet 75.

Just because people don't personally leech, doesn't mean they know and have done nothing outside of Abyssea. Still want to call them liars?

[cidbahamut]

You support your argument beautifully.

I figured it was pretty self evident. A chorus of five strangers chirping "grats" at you for every level from 11 to 75 strikes me as rather insincere. The only time leveling up counts for anything is when you hit the level cap on your first job, after that it's really not important enough to warrant mention, much less genuine congratulations.

It was dumb when I was clawing my way up to 75 and it's just as dumb now that the level cap is 90. The significance of leveling up has not changed, just the speed with which it can be done.

[Kwate]

For ages players bitched and complained about the exp grind. Then on top of that you had pt politics, try getting an invite as BLU, MNK, DRK, etc. It was time consuming....merit pts you can forget it. I like abyss, GOV style as it takes alot of the job prejudice out of the equation as well as very time efficient. You can have an epic alliance with every job on the game (as long as the categories are semi-balanced), now its just categories, DD, healer, Nukes.

I leeched a few jobs 30-90, but I'm taking the time to skill-up and learn about said jobs thru soloing, experience and reading thru forums. I think the player base has earned this, and I will definitely take full advantage of it. Even before abyss, you had people finding work arounds, via SMN burns, PL, etc.

So for the people who don't "support" GOV or "leeching" I suppose you never been PL'd or in a SMN burn. To say no to those I would call BS.

[Leonlionheart]

1 - Genbu defeated so many times, not even funny.
2 - Proto - Omega defeated many times over and Proto - Ultima
3 - Hazhalm Training Grounds - Caedarva Mire close to the Graveyard with Orderly Imps, Skeletons and Chigoes.
4 - No
5 - 4 jobs at 75 and one at 72 prior to the introduction of Abyssea - After? 5 jobs at 90 and one at 77 (BLU) which was not leeched - levelled in the traditional manner.
6 - No - but have pre 75
7 - Don't have Dragoon levelled, nor polearm skilled on any job that can use it.
8 - Yes, I learned how to maximize and utilize my skills and gear learned and earned to be a part of a team that could bring Kirin down in a 14 member, 69 second Kirin burn. This before level 90 of course and some members not yet 75.

Just because people don't personally leech, doesn't mean they know and have done nothing outside of Abyssea. Still want to call them liars?

I got you with 6, that's my point. You do that a lot pre 75 (Assuming non-ToAU content), but never on anything end-game.

TP burns are hard yo, you're proving my point. There's no real "Team Play" in TP burns that you would've learned in traditional 6man parties from 10~75. It's just 100 TP, WS. Berserk, WS. Warcry, WS. This has nothing to do with the Tank and Spank methods of PLD THF WAR RDM BLM WHM parties.

Nothing you learned 1~75 couldn't be learned at level cap. Come play with me on DRG, my newest leeched 90, and I'll show you.

If you want to be good, you will be. No matter what method you took to 90. All it takes is a bit of research.

[Leonlionheart]

1. Yes, several hundred times.
2. See answer one.
3. Yes, died to imps too many times.
4. Yes, it was a blast! Best. Fight. Ever.
5. Um... SMN/RDM/BLM/BRD/SAM/WAR at 75. WAR/BLM/SMN/WHM/BLU at 90. So yeah. 6 when the cap turned 80, 5 at the moment.
6. Hell no!
7. Does Raging Rush spam count?
8. Actually, yes. (Back in the day before zergs) When a stupid PLD decided to kite Kirin next to freshly weakened people who were all raised from Astral Flow deathga, and I was the only one out of range, guess who kited with Carby and Garuda to recover and eventually get the win.....and the wind crystal to drop! If it wasn't for the fact that I soloed my SMN by blowing up bombs instead of being a gimp WHM, that would have been a wipe instead of a recovery.

So Leon, how did I fair in your Cosmo Quiz?

I think you really proved my point with all of that o.O I was aiming 8 toward party play, so the whole solo SMN thing helps prove my point indirectly.

Obviously the ones who don't feel they would do well on the test won't post about it.

[Teraniku]

I have a few questions for the players that think that leeching is bad:

1) Have you ever defeated Genbu?
2) Have you ever defeated Proto-Omega?
3) Do you know where the entrance of Einherjar is?
4) Have you ever defeated Pantokrator without a brew?
5) How many jobs do you have at a previous level cap? 75? 90?
6) Have you ever used a "First Voke" SATA method on any monster above level 80 (Greater Colibri are 83 IIRC)
7) Have you ever not done anything but Penta Thrust spam on any monster above level 85? (bad wording, figure it out)
8th and Final) Did anything you learned in your 3~8 months of getting from level 10 to 75 help you fight against Kirin?

If all of your answers from 1~4 are no, you have no right to talk.

If your answer for 5 was less than 3, you need to go leech god damnit.

If your answers from 6~8 are yes, you are a liar, and need to go have a good talk with your mother, because I'm sure she'd be quite displeased.

Let's see...

1.) yes
2.)yes
3) yes Hazhalm Training grounds, West Exit from Nashmau and the rest what Octoviane said. (Also have my Morgana's Choker to prove it)
4) no but then I don't spend much time in Abyssea anyway. (Don't have the time)
5) 2 and same 2 @90 (PLD and WHM)
6) no
7) No DRG only lvl 20, and learning to fight Kirin takes skill building in other end game events learning how to kite, zerg, tank etc,

[Leonlionheart]

@_@ 7 is rhetorical, really. It's a bad one, because, as has been pointed out, TP burn does happen in end game (though obviously not exactly like Bird Meripos.)

[Teraniku]

You should add to your list:

8) How many of the games storylines have you completed?

Storyline (What's been completed or done)

-3 Nation Rank (Windy, Sandy)

-3 Nation Quest (WotG) (Sandy)

-Zilart (Done)
Apocalypse Nigh (Done)
-CoP (Done)

ToAU (Done)

WotG (Done)

Abyssea (Done) (Defeated Shinryu) (Don't have Atma of the savior)

ACP (Done)

AMKD (Done)

ASA (haven't finished yet)

[Asymptotic]

There's nothing fun or educational about killing 10000 crabs and 900000 Colibri. Abyssea XP isn't fun either, but at least you're done with it quickly.

[Meyi]

There's nothing fun or educational about killing 10000 crabs and 900000 Colibri.

This.

I find Abyssea exp to be enjoyable if I'm actually leveling up. Capped exp and capped merits makes it boring.

[brayen]

exping is the worse, if you can manage to get a leech spot more power to you, personally i wont let anyone i dont know leech and never did the leeching so really idk how ppl get into the pt lol

and as others stated, you don't learn anything doing it "the old fashioned way" what matters is that ppl who do get to 90(at least in my eyes) learn what the job can do and how to play it to the best of your abilities and are willing to play it. Nothing bugs me more then someone unwilling to change jobs to a job they just burned and bragged about it day and night yet unwilling to learn or play it

[Juri_Licious]

With the logic in this thread, we should automatically start out at max level.

[Reiterpallasch]

With the logic in this thread, we should automatically start out at max level.
Agreed! Gimps will be gimp no matter how fast/slow they get to max lvl. A good player can learn the job whether they start from the bottom and grind to the top, or are simply handed a lvl 90.

[Dragoy]

One might compare leveling afk to botting, since one would not be actually playing the character.
Basically it is the same thing, just not by using third party software.

To make a few things clear, I am not accusing anyone of cheating here, or speaking of anyone in particular.
I'm merely playing with the thought of leveling up a character while being afk and not actually even playing the game.

I am actually a little bit surprised that the game does not have a feature that would halt any kind of progress of levels be it skill or experience points if the character would not perform any actions for a certain amount of time.
Some other games (not surprisingly) do.

In the end, I do not care how other people play, at all.
If I did care about every cheater and 'flamer' and such, I would probably go crazy.
Instead, I leave them be, and enjoy my time as I please, instead of wasting my effort and time for anything else. ^^

I personally do not like 'leeching', and I have actually gained a few levels at 71 to 75 I think for my Thief one night with a 'cleave-party', and I was actually afk that time too, sleeping.
I did lure monsters to under the cleave for uhhh, 8-13 hours I think? With a level 90 character no less, basically getting only cruor from it, so I didn't feel bad at all for getting some experience points for another job as an 'end-reward'.

So no, I don't judge people for 'leeching' or tell them they are baaaad and suck at the game because of it.
I would probably vote for a higher level limit for Abyssea, definitely, and would agree to a non-leechosure (a what now) agreement, and would not complain about it not being possible anymore.


Oh, and I also have helped a friend or few at times by killing things for Dominion for example, no matter what level they are at (usually 60+ I think), and leveling up them this way. They never were afk though, and did do what they could.

I don't really mind this kind of a development of the game, but I do miss the regular partying a little bit even though I never really did it much at all, mostly before the Fields of Valor was introduced. I only ever had like 3 parties at the ToaU areas for example, mostly leveling in Campaign after level 60 or so, and before that, lots of FoV... lots.


But I'm probably rambling now, so here's a short version and the end:

Afk-leveling is a bit hmmm, I rather play the game myself, than let others play it for me, but I do not judge or really care at all if other players do it. I don't estimate their experience on the game-content or their skills to play the game by it either.
That said, I am not for it, nor exactly against it... I guess I just don't care. :F

I wouldn't probably allow it in my game, though.

[Zagen]

One might compare leveling afk to botting, since one would not be actually playing the character.
Basically it is the same thing, just not by using third party software.

To make a few things clear, I am not accusing anyone of cheating here, or speaking of anyone in particular.
I'm merely playing with the thought of leveling up a character while being afk and not actually even playing the game.

I am actually a little bit surprised that the game does not have a feature that would halt any kind of progress of levels be it skill or experience points if the character would not perform any actions for a certain amount of time.
Some other games (not surprisingly) do.
As far as I know and everyone I've ever spoken to about "botting" the term is used for/defined as using a script/program to automatically do a given task(s) for you, as you're using real people to get the exp that would not be "botting", while similar in the out come they are different due to the difference between a script/program and a human being.

I've been a leech and I play/gear those jobs better than a large portion of the player base.

I also run leech parties, I take no responsibility for a bad player, it is their choice on how they play their game, if they want to leech and then actively refuse to learn how to properly play the game by not skilling up relevant skills, not buying needed spells, etc. That is their decision and not mine.

I don't care how a random player gets a job up to 90 as long as they know how to play that job who cares? Gimps have and will always exist that is a fact.

[Panthera]

I figured it was pretty self evident. A chorus of five strangers chirping "grats" at you for every level from 11 to 75 strikes me as rather insincere.

So what does familiarity have to do with sincerity?



The only time leveling up counts for anything is when you hit the level cap on your first job, after that it's really not important enough to warrant mention, much less genuine congratulations.

No. Getting to 75 on princess jobs back in the day was "easier," but it still took a great deal of tenacity. Even with good setups and statics, not everyone made it to 75. I can tell you that much for a fact. Without statics, recall the patience it took to seek on unpopular jobs till one got a party, wade through parties of varying strengths, and contested camps. And before level-sync, it was worse! Getting to 75 wasn't just cause for congratulations, it was nigh miraculous. And not merely just the first time, but having that kind of fortitude was praise-worthy every time.

And what's more, you couldn't simply go AFK the entire time.

[Panthera]

So for the people who don't "support" GOV or "leeching" I suppose you never been PL'd or in a SMN burn. To say no to those I would call BS.
Never done AFB, and I refuse PL parties, and if I have lead, I've enforced that position.

[Zagen]

No. Getting to 75 on princess jobs back in the day was "easier," but it still took a great deal of tenacity. Even with good setups and statics, not everyone made it to 75. I can tell you that much for a fact. Without statics, recall the patience it took to seek on unpopular jobs till one got a party, wade through parties of varying strengths, and contested camps. And before level-sync, it was worse! Getting to 75 wasn't just cause for congratulations, it was nigh miraculous. And not merely just the first time, but having that kind of fortitude was praise-worthy every time.

It took me 2 years on my first character to hit 75, not because the grind was hard, not because the exp amount were very high compared to today, but because I had Job A.D.D. in those 2 years I had 12 jobs lvl 40+. Nothing in this game prevented a player from being able to hit level 75 even on a job that wasn't loved, the only difference was some jobs/players got to level caps faster because they were sought after and/or didn't have bad reps (assuming the leader even cared about reputation).

[Korpg]

Never done AFB, and I refuse PL parties, and if I have lead, I've enforced that position.

I call BSwhite text

[Panthera]

Nothing in this game prevented a player from being able to hit level 75 even on a job that wasn't loved, the only difference was some jobs/players got to level caps faster because they were sought after and/or didn't have bad reps (assuming the leader even cared about reputation).

No, nothing "stopped" people from getting to max level, but it was an uphill climb, and a steep hill to boot. These days, it's just a matter of letting the autopilot take care of it.

[Zagen]

No, nothing "stopped" people from getting to max level, but it was an uphill climb, and a steep hill to boot. These days, it's just a matter of letting the autopilot take care of it.

So back in 2003 when it was an up hill battle for everyone to get exp it sucked, and now in 2011 where it is easy exp it sucks? I don't get it... Again neither method prevented gimps from getting to 75 even in 2003 EXP groups could function with 5 at the same pace if they were decent players.

[Panthera]

So back in 2003 when it was an up hill battle for everyone to get exp it sucked, and now in 2011 where it is easy exp it sucks? I don't get it... Again neither method prevented gimps from getting to 75 even in 2003 EXP groups could function with 5 at the same pace if they were decent players.

No, I didn't say it "sucked." It was difficult or challenging, and pre-level sync nearly miraculous, but people could still do it--and their praise was earned. Post level-synch was doable. It took effort, but that's the whole point, the effort was a good thing!

The old way did make it near impossible for incompetent or "gimpy" players to get to max level, that is, if the leader did their job and booted them. I certainly did. Incompetence or gear short-comings would get you killed in soloing, and you'd actually make backwards progress, back when we actually lost exp for dying. Now, it doesn't matter if you're competent or not. You can just go AFK, and you get 90.

[Zagen]

No, I didn't say it "sucked." It was difficult or challenging
No it wasn't... that's the point. It took longer that is the only difference between now and then.

[Leonlionheart]

No it wasn't... that's the point. It took longer that is the only difference between now and then.

People don't like to understand this.

GUYS SIMPLE: Exp grinds always sucked.
They were not difficult, ever.
They took way too long, until ToAU (+WotG)
Then they were overly simple (TP Burn Lolibri from 37~75)
Now it's just sitting there to get 75, then doing a rape fest with your job and 17 other people to 90.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Never done AFB, and I refuse PL parties, and if I have lead, I've enforced that position.I call BSwhite textlol
The rest if the party would kick you to keep the PL.

[Aurara]

Taking this quiz for fun and to make a point :P


1)Multiple times
2) 6 manned it at 75, duo'd at 90
3) Caedarva Mire, past the graveyard where you turn in items for mythic.
4) Yep, i hate this mob
5) 5 jobs, thf war blm rdm cor at 75. At 90 i have 12: thf war blm rdm cor brd whm nin blu mnk smn rng
6) Did SATA til 60 then lulz tpburn!!!
7) Was there anything else to do? Aside from puddings in Mtz or Aerns in sea lol?
8th and Final) Nope.


The point is, if you're bad and you leveled the normal way, you're still bad. If you're good and level the normal way you're going to be good. If you're bad and abysseaburn you're going to be bad, and if you're good and abyssea burn you're going to be good.

[Seyrena]

The point is, if you're bad and you leveled the normal way, you're still bad. If you're good and level the normal way you're going to be good. If you're bad and abysseaburn you're going to be bad, and if you're good and abyssea burn you're going to be good.

[True Strike]
It's the same with WoW. If you get carried to 85 and you're good, you'll be good. If you get carried to 85 and you're bad, you'll be bad.

[Khajit]

I think it cheapens the value of having max level jobs, or jobs of any level really, for everyone. Every notice how people used to say "grats!" when people got their levels or merit points, and now they don't? It's because 1) exp is hyper inflated and 2) you don't have to work for it.

No offense, but I don't support this kind of thing.

I always thought the grats thing was stupid to begin with unless you got something special with that lv. Eg. a brd got a new march or ballad, etc DD job got a new JA or a good ws. Most of the time there's not much point in even saying grats anyway.

[Zatias]

I myself don't leech and probably never will. That doesn't mean I resent people who do; if they choose to leech, good for them. If not, good for them. >.>

Just don't show up in one of the parties who needs you to have all blue mage trigger spells ;P

[Leonlionheart]

Irrelevant of the way you leveled, if you show up to one of my PUGs (on content that's harder than Brobek) with less spells/gear than I think you should have, I will kick you.

[Octaviane]

On the subject of PL, just cracks me up to see a Rank 7, level 14 DD ( WAR/um........either DNC or NIN) with a PL in Dangruf Wadi doing GoV page 2. I guess the point is get it done fast with someone who can heal you every time you take a hit. Sad.

[Zatias]

That 40 second haste PLs give at that level is also awesome.

Before all this GoV spam and such, I actually PLed my bf on jobs he hated as rdm/sch, giving enspells that did more damage than his melee attacks. It was a riot to watch XD

[Leonlionheart]

On the subject of PL, just cracks me up to see a Rank 7, level 14 DD ( WAR/um........either DNC or NIN) with a PL in Dangruf Wadi doing GoV page 2. I guess the point is get it done fast with someone who can heal you every time you take a hit. Sad.

The point is to get it done fast.

[Panthera]

lol
The rest if the party would kick you to keep the PL.
Actually no. They ask to get into my parties (I was leader 90% of the time across 20 jobs), or ask if I happen to making them, because I was a stickler for good setups and checked everyone to make sure they had good gear. I knew about camps that some didn't. With a good setup, PLs aren't needed at all.

[Covenant]

Seyrena... Don't take this personally but you remind me of a welfare recipient..."I just sit back and collect a check".. You milk a system that has good in mind, namely helping those truly down on their luck. You rationalize you contrary behavior as does the criminal in prison whose always "innocent" and lays the blame elsewhere.

In general, I couldn't care less if your a "leech" but then you come on these boards and are proud of this fact. I feel sorry for you and for all the people exposed to your personality. To sum it up...

...you enjoy playing this game, BY NOT PLAYING THIS GAME! Pathetic.

[Panthera]

No it wasn't... that's the point. It took longer that is the only difference between now and then.
I would say that having to work for your exp and not having to work for exp are quite different. If you think that those two things are the same, by all means, please explain.

Is your position that 6 lower level guys fighting one higher level mob is the same as +6 guys higher level guys fighting against one lower level mob for Tome Exp, as this is what the OP is discussing--and he is afk, are the same thing? Now and then are the same thing. Hmmm.

[Leonlionheart]

Seyrena... Don't take this personally but you remind me of a welfare recipient..."I just sit back and collect a check".. You milk a system that has good in mind, namely helping those truly down on their luck. You rationalize you contrary behavior as does the criminal in prison whose always "innocent" and lays the blame elsewhere.

In general, I couldn't care less if your a "leech" but then you come on these boards and are proud of this fact. I feel sorry for you and for all the people exposed to your personality. To sum it up...

...you enjoy playing this game, BY NOT PLAYING THIS GAME! Pathetic.

ITT: Killing 9000 Crawlers per level is fun

There's no use arguing with you people, you're just... silly. You might have had fun doing that, but for those of us who didn't, and had to level several jobs for their LS, you just sound like noobs.

[Kimble]

Never done AFB, and I refuse PL parties, and if I have lead, I've enforced that position.

Have you ever used an EXP scroll or level synced?

[Panthera]

I always thought the grats thing was stupid to begin with unless you got something special with that lv. Eg. a brd got a new march or ballad, etc DD job got a new JA or a good ws. Most of the time there's not much point in even saying grats anyway.
The point is that they put hours of time and energy into actively partying. It takes patience and a willingness to work with others. Earning a level is an accomplishment; what they got was their level, and you are praising their commitment and achievement. Nothing unintelligent about that, in fact, it's only polite to do so. Far be it from me to have a failure of being polite, I, for one, wasn't brought up that way. If someone AFBs, AFKs or RMTs, I don't see what's to praise.

[Leonlionheart]

The point is that they put hours of time and energy into actively partying. It takes patience and a willingness to work with others. Earning a level is an accomplishment; what they got was their level, and you are praising their commitment and achievement. Nothing unintelligent about that, in fact, it's only polite to do so. Far be it from me to have a failure of being polite, I, for one, wasn't brought up that way. If someone AFBs, AFKs or RMTs, I don't see what's to praise.

High and mighty, doesn't go well over the internet

[Octaviane]

High and mighty, doesn't go well over the internet

All I can say to that is LMAO! The pot calling the kettle.

[Aurara]

It's actually not. We're pointing out that people who play like crap and leveled the normal way were still terrible terrible players, and the people who understand game mechanics can AFB, Abyssea burn, and GoV burn will be better players. Terrible is terrible no matter how you leveled up.

[Leonlionheart]

It's actually not. We're pointing out that people who play like crap and leveled the normal way were still terrible terrible players, and the people who understand game mechanics can AFB, Abyssea burn, and GoV burn will be better players. Terrible is terrible no matter how you leveled up.

See, I don't know what it is, but somehow this message, the brunt of everything I've said in this thread, goes unheard to anyone who doesn't agree.

OK imagine this: Why do people go to school? So they can learn right? But it's more than that, it's to learn in a designated environment, so that you can get ahead of the people who don't get an education.

On the other hand, you can skip school entirely and just go out there and work to get experience in whatever field you want.

They both work, but I think that going to school brings in a little bit more money in the end. Going to school starts you out in a higher position faster than not going to school.

In the same way you can leech and burn your job to 90, and as long as you've done your research and learned your job it doesn't matter that you start really playing the job at 90. This is actually prefered anyway, because the introduction of some abilities are huge game changers for that job, and you can get better practice using them in conjunction with high level abilities in the first place.(See: Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Assassinate, Meditate, Counterstance, Afflatus Solace/Miser, Retaliation, Restoring Breath, the list goes on.)

If you don't do research and know what gear you should be using, when you should be using your JA, WS, ETC, then you're probably going to be a bad player no matter what. It's not like you can eyeball what is better: Bullwhip or Goading?You'd probably never know without a parse/reading it online/being told.

[Seyrena]

Seyrena... Don't take this personally but you remind me of a welfare recipient..."I just sit back and collect a check".. You milk a system that has good in mind, namely helping those truly down on their luck. You rationalize you contrary behavior as does the criminal in prison whose always "innocent" and lays the blame elsewhere.

In general, I couldn't care less if your a "leech" but then you come on these boards and are proud of this fact. I feel sorry for you and for all the people exposed to your personality. To sum it up...

...you enjoy playing this game, BY NOT PLAYING THIS GAME! Pathetic.Just wanna say: I LIKE this reply! This is exactly what I was looking for, some opposition that is not 'LOL FAST EXP IS BAD GO DIAF'. Though it's not completely legitimate, much of your argument is valid and it is fairly delicious.

Contrary as my behavior may be, I never lie about it. I will tell parties straight out what my intentions are, and let them decide whether they want me in. Usually, they just don't care. I have only ever been turned away once. Sure, I'll look for altruistic outcomes as always, but don't we all? I'm just trying to make the best of a new system that has been put in place, and so far, I've been succeeding drastically. I've found that the only people opposed to my style are the old veterans who are die-hard in the belief that hard EXP is the only good EXP.

By the way, the difference between welfare recipients and leeches is that welfare recipients largely give nothing back to society, whereas I provide entire magnitudes of benefit as a result of my leeching.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Actually no. They ask to get into my parties (I was leader 90% of the time across 20 jobs), or ask if I happen to making them, because I was a stickler for good setups and checked everyone to make sure they had good gear. I knew about camps that some didn't. With a good setup, PLs aren't needed at all.That's the kind of person that ends up on my blacklist to thinking they can tell people what to do. lol
It's not a matter of not needing a PL, it's a matter of expiditing the lvling proccess which in itself has nothing to do with the other content of the game that makes it worth playing.

[Seyrena]

That's the kind of person that ends up on my blacklist to thinking they can tell people what to do. lol
It's not a matter of not needing a PL, it's a matter of expiditing the lvling proccess which in itself has nothing to do with the other content of the game that makes it worth playing.I suppose, in the end, it comes down to a conflict of what people value in FFXI: the grind or the content?

[Zagen]

I would say that having to work for your exp and not having to work for exp are quite different. If you think that those two things are the same, by all means, please explain.

Is your position that 6 lower level guys fighting one higher level mob is the same as +6 guys higher level guys fighting against one lower level mob for Tome Exp, as this is what the OP is discussing--and he is afk, are the same thing? Now and then are the same thing. Hmmm.
Here's the thing if you suck at the game, refuse to better yourself, all that happens in the old method is you took longer to get to 75. You weren't magically prevented from getting there.

In the new system if you suck at the game, refuse to better yourself, all that happens is you're required to beg friends to let you leech (assuming you have friends), come up with gil to pay a leech party, or some how get cruor to be a key person.

In both situations the sucky player gets delayed, in neither situation do they get prevented from getting to a level cap. This is my stance, new or old gimps still got to level cap at a slower rate than good players.

And guess what those good players don't associate with those sucky players once they find out they suck, at least I don't, dunno about you.

I'd rather be out farming gear, killing new NMs than sitting there grinding EXP.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I suppose, in the end, it comes down to a conflict of what people value in FFXI: the grind or the content?True. But faster grind is still grind. ^^

[Meyi]

OK imagine this: Why do people go to school? So they can learn right? But it's more than that, it's to learn in a designated environment, so that you can get ahead of the people who don't get an education.

On the other hand, you can skip school entirely and just go out there and work to get experience in whatever field you want.

They both work, but I think that going to school brings in a little bit more money in the end. Going to school starts you out in a higher position faster than not going to school.

School is designed for many reasons. Not only to learn the material necessary for your job, but to learn the building blocks leading up to your job, to further enhance your education in every facet of life, and to stimulate critical thinking skills. They also show that you can do a task that is required of you; come to class, study, and pass tests.

You could just go to a job, but not all jobs are the best to do this with. If you don't know how to operate the equipment or what your job entails (such as researching), then you'll be slowing the company down with your constant questioning.

Sometimes it really is best to learn about something before jumping into it. Although reading how to do something and actually doing it physically are completely two different things, sometimes having the knowledge lodged somewhere in the brain can help the problem be solved.


In the same way you can leech and burn your job to 90, and as long as you've done your research and learned your job it doesn't matter that you start really playing the job at 90. This is actually prefered anyway, because the introduction of some abilities are huge game changers for that job, and you can get better practice using them in conjunction with high level abilities in the first place.(See: Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Assassinate, Meditate, Counterstance, Afflatus Solace/Miser, Retaliation, Restoring Breath, the list goes on.)

If you don't do research and know what gear you should be using, when you should be using your JA, WS, ETC, then you're probably going to be a bad player no matter what. It's not like you can eyeball what is better: Bullwhip or Goading?You'd probably never know without a parse/reading it online/being told.

This is very true. FFXI isn't real life, and it doesn't require an education in to enjoy. It's a video game. Lots of people before us have been kind enough to parse the information and record to the mass; we should be wise to read up their findings and follow their advice.

I've always said that bad players will be bad players because it's a mind set, not a lack of skill. If someone doesn't care to study the job they're playing at least a little bit (whether it be through trial and error of their own testing or reading online), then that's lazy.

But to be fair I'm not always a good player myself. I really don't care to learn much about White Mage. I'm not a fanatic on gearing it up to be the best. I leveled it for emergency healing for group activities only. If someone points out a piece of gear I should fetch I'll usually shrug my shoulders, unless it's a big change in what I have now. If it's advice on Job Abilities/Spells though, I'm all ears.

When it comes to Black Mage and Summoner, on the other hand, I love these jobs enough to do as much research as I can. Also to obtain as much gear as I can.

When it comes to someone leeching, initially of course I feel kind of put off by it. I had leveled 7 jobs to 75 on my Elvaan the old fashioned way, and soloing. It was slow and sometimes it infuriates me to see other people take two days to get that job to 90 with gear better than I had ever had. Maybe jealousy? Ah, either way, I remind myself that in the end it really doesn't matter; they're level 90 now, and that's all that really matters. That job can come out and help us at events now. As long as they know how to use it, I'm happy.

[Rearden]

I can't recall ever having difficulty leveling up aside from NA PC release. To say leveling was difficult after ToAU and WotG were released is asinine.

Aside from there being exp bonuses in nearly everything you did, you could constantly level sync yourself to certain prime areas for xp until you got to your first set of Colibri. From there, pulling 20k/h (Lv55+) wasn't even difficult.

That's not even taking into account SMN burns, Chigoe burns, Pet burns and Pet soloing.

Crap XP would be leveling on acrophies in Qufim or Weapons in Battalia because you can't get to Kazham, or leveling on (yet again) weapons in Ro'Maeve, Spiders on the way to Faffy, or Tigers/Cocks in Kuftal. The 16m repops didn't even matter because you would almost never kill anything fast enough to run out of the 5 mobs actually near your camp.

Edit: and lol at setting up all parties for 20 jobs across over9000 levels. I show up to parties (if I do them) under 30 naked and with a weapon appropriate to the level. That's all that is needed to be successful. I've been kicked from parties for doing that and have been called gimp etc. These are the same people who I've seen wearing NQ AF3 on their 90's who I promptly post up to themosthatedwebsiteinallofofficialforumdum.

I've rarely enjoyed xp'ing, and I still don't enjoy it. What makes me dislike it the most is the 5 to 17 other people in the party.

[Korpg]

You know, as a person who has both soloed a job to 90 and leveled in a party to 90, I have to say that the exp grind sucks, regardless of how you are doing it.

I soloed Summoner from 1 to 90 mostly, I did get into parties while leveling, but those were very rare and far between. Can I say that what I learned from soloing Summoner has helped my job out a lot? Yes, it taught me the appropriate distance to summon/resummon avatars in kiting, what type of pathing monsters usually take, how fast certain mobs are (believe it or not, but lizards are slower than treants, just saying), damage types and what is best to kill stuff with. It has helped me out a lot when it comes to soloing harder NMs today. And I didn't have to afk solo at all. Do I say that everyone should do what I did? Meh, up to you, I personally don't care.

I have also leveled (recently) my WHM in a party-type situation(s). Mostly from abyssea. Some parties I wasn't even needed, so I guess you can say I burned it, although I wasn't a keywhore (cruor for me is better spent on other things, like brews and such). I went from 30 to 90 in a matter of days, while it took me 9 months to level SMN from 1 to 90. By some of you guys logic, that must mean that my WHM must really suck and I am horrible at it.

My 50% cure potency, level 85~89 magic skills, and my knowledge of macros and stuff says otherwise (love <stal>).

I am most likely better geared, know more, and have more experience as WHM than most other 90 WHMs. And I only use my WHM about twice a month!

The point being, if you suck, you suck period. Exp parties teach you almost nothing about being dependable and how to cope harder stuff (like trash NMs in Abyssea, I have seen alliances wipe to Glavoid while myself and 2 friends can kill it easy) and be a key player in this game. I know my job as a SMN. I know my job as a WAR. I know my job as a WHM. And I expect you to know it too, otherwise I will beat the information into your shallow brain until you can recite me the list of WHM spells in Alphabetical Order AND by order of cost of MP, inverted!

[Meyi]

love <stal>.


Dear Altana, this. I love <stal> as well. I am of the oldschool Zilart White Mage people who only had <t> at the time of reaching 75, so when people blinked gear, I'd grow pretty angry. Most of the time I would just type out /ma "Cure III" name/<p#> to ensure targetting them. Then when <stpt> came out, I wasn't impressed. I was in Salvage at the time and wasn't aware of the <stal>, and since we'd normally go in a party of 7 or 8, it was infuriating not being able to cure outside party members.

But <stal> is beautiful. Every White Mage should use it.

[Terasan]

I personally haven't leeched any jobs on either of my two characters (Terasan and my old one that got hacked a while back). I have GoV burned a few subs now on Tera, but other stuff like my BLU now I've just duo'd with my sister. I don't have any issues with people who've leeched/Astralburned/keywhored, just as long as they give a crap about their job and are willing to learn how to better their performance. Also, just for lulz (nice tag, btw) here's my quiz :P

1) Have you ever defeated Genbu? Yep, hundreds of times.
2) Have you ever defeated Proto-Omega? Yep.
3) Do you know where the entrance of Einherjar is? Mhmm, Hazhalm.
4) Have you ever defeated Pantokrator without a brew? Never fought Pantokrator, was hacked at the release of Heroes.
5) How many jobs do you have at a previous level cap? 75? 90? Had... 7? at 85 before, have WHM at 90 now.
6) Have you ever used a "First Voke" SATA method on any monster above level 80 (Greater Colibri are 83 IIRC) Just for lulz on Genbu.
7) Have you ever not done anything but Penta Thrust spam on any monster above level 85? (bad wording, figure it out) Uh... Assuming this means "Have I TP burned everything higher than level 85" Which the answer would be no, did Sky with some horribad LSs way back when.
8th and Final) Did anything you learned in your 3~8 months of getting from level 10 to 75 help you fight against Kirin? Where my WS button is, yeah.

[Runespider]

Leeching is part of the game now and the leveling system is really easy anyway, even a brand new character can be taken to 90 in under a week (with some knowledge). Level cap quests take longer than the actual leveling process to 90, anyway being a sync is like being a key person in Aby... you are offering something so it's not really leeching.

[Leonlionheart]

Every time a WHM refuses to use <stal>

I SEE A WHITE LIGHT OF NERD RAGE

[Runespider]

Every time a WHM refuses to use <stal>

I SEE A WHITE LIGHT OF NERD RAGE

I hate <stal>, seems really slow. I use a g15 keyboard that lets me press a button to target each person in the alliance though so...

[Leonlionheart]

I hate <stal>, seems really slow.

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


I use a g15 keyboard that lets me press a button to target each person in the alliance though so...

Everything turned out ok :)

[Rosina]

WoW. Honestly why do the "leechers" play this game anymore if they are THAT BORED they must "leech" to get anywhere. It is an mmorog guys. No need to rush. If you hate leveling mmorpg are not for you simple. Video games are meant to be played not cheated the whole way through. Also every leecher I personally met sucked at their class/job. And no amount of research can make you better. Only actively playing. It is sickening as a gamer to read this BS.

Leeching is NOT the way to level. If you do not like the job DO NOT LEVEL IT. Simple. Everyone who is a noobie to a class/game will be bad at it till they learn And so far. Everyone who leeched is bad. All they do is button mash fights and go lol when they steal hate. That isn't being good. That is playing dumb. Being great at your job is knowing when to do you skills/abilities in sync with your group, and in synce with a particular boss. Such as knowing when your turn is in a stun line on diablos. Reading does jack. Physically playing is what makes you good.

[Rosina]

to add

I am not here to insult just sharing my experience from when I play.

Also the whole "a bad person will be bad no matter how they level" is flawed concept. If a bad player is willing to learn, leveling the old school way is the best thing for him since he learns the timing of his skills.

Take a real life example, you can read up on how to make a cake and decorate it all you want. But you will never really learn if yiu do not physically learn how to do it. If simply reading stuff makes people "good" at their jobs we would all be rich since we would master any sorta of job.

[Leonlionheart]

to add

I am not here to insult just sharing my experience from when I play.

Also the whole "a bad person will be bad no matter how they level" is flawed concept. If a bad player is willing to learn, leveling the old school way is the best thing for him since he learns the timing of his skills.

Take a real life example, you can read up on how to make a cake and decorate it all you want. But you will never really learn if yiu do not physically learn how to do it. If simply reading stuff makes people "good" at their jobs we would all be rich since we would master any sorta of job.

1: Bad player = not willing to learn. A good player will learn, no matter what route he takes to learn it.

2: IRL Jobs =/= FFXI jobs.

Seriously. This game isn't so hard that it takes time to learn how to (for examples sake) jump on drg.

[Kimble]

Leeching is NOT the way to level. If you do not like the job DO NOT LEVEL IT. Simple. Everyone who is a noobie to a class/game will be bad at it till they learn And so far. Everyone who leeched is bad. All they do is button mash fights and go lol when they steal hate. That isn't being good. That is playing dumb. Being great at your job is knowing when to do you skills/abilities in sync with your group, and in synce with a particular boss. Such as knowing when your turn is in a stun line on diablos. Reading does jack. Physically playing is what makes you good.

Expect none of this you would learn in exp parties.

[Meyi]

Also the whole "a bad person will be bad no matter how they level" is flawed concept. If a bad player is willing to learn...

Then they're not a bad player, are they? They're inexperienced. A bad player refuses to learn.

Yeah. We got it. You hate speed. You probably like the Slowskys from the Comcast commercials. Hate to break it to you but the majority of the player base enjoys the speed.

[Leonlionheart]

Rosina, if you were on Asura I would show you the Abyssea ropes.

Spoiler:

[Rosina]

1: Bad player = not willing to learn. A good player will learn, no matter what route he takes to learn it.

2: IRL Jobs =/= FFXI jobs.

Seriously. This game isn't so hard that it takes time to learn how to (for examples sake) jump on drg.

i played this game from ps2 launch day on and off. I can tell you the horror stories of the ppl i ran into who you can tell leeched their way to level. I had tanks who got PL the hole time and didn't know how to tank.

I had white mages who didn't know what several spells did they a normal whm would.

I had blms who refused to slow down their nuking and say "just get a PL".

i had over 40000 melee players go ape on mobs and die, then blame the actual decent tank.

all these people have leeched or got PL the whole time they played. There was no "risk" for them to learn their timing.

[Leonlionheart]

i played this game from ps2 launch day on and off. I can tell you the horror stories of the ppl i ran into who you can tell leeched their way to level. I had tanks who got PL the hole time and didn't know how to tank.

I had white mages who didn't know what several spells did they a normal whm would.

I had blms who refused to slow down their nuking and say "just get a PL".

i had over 40000 melee players go ape on mobs and die, then blame the actual decent tank.

all these people have leeched or got PL the whole time they played. There was no "risk" for them to learn their timing.

I'm going to assume "Returning player" means you haven't done new content yet

[Rosina]

Then they're not a bad player, are they? They're inexperienced. A bad player refuses to learn.

Yeah. We got it. You hate speed. You probably like the Slowskys from the Comcast commercials. Hate to break it to you but the majority of the player base enjoys the speed.

Nope i enjoy good players who know their classes and actively plays not, ego stroking leechers who would rather get high and rot their brains, then even learn their class via playing.

Simply put any real gamer learns by doing. Simple.


If you leechers are not willing to play go find a non leveling mmo. Such as DCUO or WoW. you fot those better. Don't ruin an mmo with your petty mind set. Sorry no offence just leechers are scum in my eyes.

[Leonlionheart]

Nope i enjoy good players who know their classes and actively plays not, ego stroking leechers who would rather get high and rot their brains, then even learn their class via playing.

Simply put any real gamer learns by doing. Simple.


If you leechers are not willing to play go find a non leveling mmo. Such as DCUO or WoW. you fot those better. Don't ruin an mmo with your petty mind set. Sorry no offence just leechers are scum in my eyes.

Hi I leeched WHM BLM SMN DRG DRK to 90 but

I can't play them because I haven't been playing them from 1~75. Not like you get some of your most important abilities AT 75 (SEE: Desperate Blows)...

You're silly.

[Zatias]

Nope i enjoy good players who know their classes and actively plays not, ego stroking leechers who would rather get high and rot their brains, then even learn their class via playing.

Simply put any real gamer learns by doing. Simple.


If you leechers are not willing to play go find a non leveling mmo. Such as DCUO or WoW. you fot those better. Don't ruin an mmo with your petty mind set. Sorry no offence just leechers are scum in my eyes.

I fot those better? ; ;

Seriously though, at least you're honest in stating your opinion. "Leeching" just happens, it isn't even always leeching. Every abyssea party needs a key whore, and as OP said every book burn needs a sync. Those aren't actual leeches, they are helping the party.

[Rosina]

I'm going to assume "Returning player" means you haven't done new content yet

I've done aby. Just not the void walker stuff. And I solo bastion. I do And when I did dominion or aby parties I actively played. And didn't go in till 80. I never leached and always left a party with a PL.

At first i didn't care till my skills suffered. I never got the hang of ninja because of PL. I tried to learn by reading, doing, training with my friends and simply couldn't keep up it up because of the stupid need of no risk easy mode. Same with healinbg. It took me time to get better at uaing what cure When.

Also you level itsn;t really importent it is are skill levels. Leeching makes you gimp and no gear can help ya. I rather get my skills in exp parties then rush to cap and then skill up. Skill up parties are so dull and mindless. Mindless playing bores me to tears. Your not real gamers/players if you do not actively play the game. So you have nothing praise worthly.

[Meyi]

I gotta second Leo here.


i played this game from ps2 launch day on and off.

Congratulations? I've played since NA release to computer.


I can tell you the horror stories of the ppl i ran into who you can tell leeched their way to level. I had tanks who got PL the hole time and didn't know how to tank.

Leeching's been around since the beginning of the game. Anyone who isn't striving to provide their best performance is leeching. This includes people who leveled the "legitimate" way back in 2004 who would wear god awful gear to parties and slow everyone's exp down. At least leeches today don't slow parties down and in fact the inverse is true; decent players speed the party up.


I had white mages who didn't know what several spells did they a normal whm would.

I didn't get Erase until level 70 because it was up to 500k back in the day. Raise III was also 1mil. Leveling slowly didn't really fix the issue of buying scrolls and certainly didn't make me a better White Mage. At least now in Abyssea I can wrack up delicious cruor in a relatively quick rate and exchange for gil in exchange for spells and armor I need.


I had blms who refused to slow down their nuking and say "just get a PL".

Let them die and they'll eventually figure it out.


i had over 40000 melee players go ape on mobs and die, then blame the actual decent tank.

all these people have leeched or got PL the whole time they played. There was no "risk" for them to learn their timing.

I really doubt that. I know a lot of fail people who were playing back in 2004 with me.

If anything really teaches you how to play this game, it's soloing. Go out and solo your skills up while playing with your job. Do crazy things. Go kill your character, it's okay! The important thing is to figure out your reaction to the stress of the environment and to find out what each job ability, weapon skill and spell does. Most of the decently skilled players have spent a lot of time attempting things solo.

Edit #2: I wanted to respond to both posts in one.


Nope i enjoy good players who know their classes and actively plays not, ego stroking leechers who would rather get high and rot their brains, then even learn their class via playing.

Er...? Although this is probably something against Square Enix guidelines, to which I apologize, "getting high" and "skill" are not correlated in this game. I know a lot of people who are skilled even while playing intoxicated, and I know a lot of people who wish they had a reason to blame for their sheer idiocy.



Simply put any real gamer learns by doing. Simple.

See soloing.




If you leechers are not willing to play go find a non leveling mmo. Such as DCUO or WoW. you fot those better. Don't ruin an mmo with your petty mind set. Sorry no offence just leechers are scum in my eyes.

Don't ever use the term 'no offense' as it's always a lie. If you really meant no offense then you wouldn't produce the offensive statement. It doesn't excuse you from saying rude comments or throwing pointless jabs. If you disagree with someone, then disagree. For the record I think it's incredibly stupid and hypocritical for you to wish for your ideas to be respected while bashing everyone else who disagrees with you.

Get over it. You're not talented just because you leveled slowly.

Edit: Is Rosina Starcade in disguise? O-o; Sure is obsessed with leeches "cheating"...

[Leonlionheart]

How to leech:
1: Buy 300~500 keys
2: Get perle/ Walmart+Dusk+Pink/ Teal for 78
3: Get 78 and wear it
4: Play legit to 90
5: Skill up your weapons
6: ffxiah.com forums -> look for a topic about correct gear under the corresponding job
7: play ffxi and enjoy not having to griiiiiiiiiiiiiind for 8 months before playing ACTUAL dynamic content

[Leonlionheart]

So you have nothing praise worthly.

I WILL PARSE YOU RIGHT NOW ON WAR

OR CURE PARSE YOU RIGHT NOW ON WHM

OR TANK PARSE YOU RIGHT NOW ON WAR W/ WHM

IT'S GOING DOWN

[Dragoy]

As far as I know and everyone I've ever spoken to about "botting" the term is used for/defined as using a script/program to automatically do a given task(s) for you, as you're using real people to get the exp that would not be "botting", while similar in the out come they are different due to the difference between a script/program and a human being.

You are absolutely correct. I might have been able to be more clear about that I was not saying they are the same thing that way, at all.
As I said, I was merely playing with the thought of leveling up a character while being away, and/or not actually playing the game, which is what using 'bots' can do and is one of their most used purpose in online-games.

While we're at it, in a sense, it could be compared to account sharing as well which enables a character to level up faster due to more players working on it but again, without the actual sharing part which is prohibited.


I'll say it again just to make sure it's clear: I'm not saying they are the same thing, but merely comparing the hows and whys as well as playing with the thoughts and how one could see them. ^^;

On that note, I can't say if the developers intended for this kind of 'leeching' to be possible in the first place (as I mentioned earlier, often games will require your character to perform certain actions, to be active, to be eligible for the rewards).
Then again, setting the minimum level required to enter Abyssea is basically asking for just that, so I would guess they think it's fine, and indeed intended.

I would not be surprised if they did restrict it somehow in the future, though it's probably quite unlikely.


Just some (more) thoughts~

[Bubeeky]

I can't say that I've ever gone into a pt with the intentions of leeching, but I really don't mind it....I've seen plenty of ppl even before when cap was 75 that sucked royally.

At least this way, we can get through the grind quicker and actually use the jobs and their spells and JA's for the content they're meant for...nothing's a bigger deterrent to me for leveling a job than the knowledge that it'll take months and months and tons of money/effort/stress, so...the way exp is now is such a blessing :)

[Seyrena]

Your not real gamers/players if you do not actively play the game. So you have nothing praise worthly.My what?
Oh. You meant 'you're'.
Well, allow me to retort.
Your argument is invalid. By leeching, I actively play the game. I click the book and take the page. I have to use the keys on the chest as fast as mobs are killed. I am doing activities. When skilling up, I actively keep myself healed and safely away from other mobs. Those are activities too. I'm no less of a gamer, therefore, for leeching. Besides, there's only so far I'm willing to leech.

[Dauntless]

You should add to your list:

8) How many of the games storylines have you completed?


Better question would be how many have you completed pre-nerf.

[SNK]

I read this thread and then remembered I leveled BST to 75 pre-TOAU. You all suck. :(

[Panthera]

I read this thread and then remembered I leveled BST to 75 pre-TOAU. You all suck. :(

This the SNK that was on Unicorn for a bit? If so, I'd thought you'd put Dragoon as your Main Job.

[Aurara]

WoW. Honestly why do the "leechers" play this game anymore if they are THAT BORED they must "leech" to get anywhere. It is an mmorog guys. No need to rush. If you hate leveling mmorpg are not for you simple. Video games are meant to be played not cheated the whole way through. Also every leecher I personally met sucked at their class/job. And no amount of research can make you better. Only actively playing. It is sickening as a gamer to read this BS.
It's sickening to read this dribble about how leeching is bad. I literally lvl'd whm 40-90 and knew how to play my job before i got there(and by this i mean once i got cure V) So don't come at me with how "leeching is bad" you honestly prefered the 6k/hr parties back pre ToAU? Waiting for hours for people to get to camp, then hours on end to get a lvl? I mean, if you enjoy that sort of thing go ahead and level that way but please do not come in here as a knight in shining armor trying to defend all that is "good" or what you consider "good" I leeched 7 jobs to 90, and countless others for my maat's cap. Meaning I had to be able to play them well enough to beat Maat(not that this is hard, i mean its maat lol).


Leeching is NOT the way to level. If you do not like the job DO NOT LEVEL IT. Simple. Everyone who is a noobie to a class/game will be bad at it till they learn And so far. Everyone who leeched is bad.

You're making assumptions about players who you have yet to meet. I play all 12 of my 90s perfectly fine(even smn!). Bad people who leech are bad, good people who leech will still be good assuming they have a BASIC understanding of game mechanics.

[Zagen]

Take a real life example, you can read up on how to make a cake and decorate it all you want. But you will never really learn if yiu do not physically learn how to do it. If simply reading stuff makes people "good" at their jobs we would all be rich since we would master any sorta of job.

I read a book about HTML, XHTML, and CSS which got me a job as a entry level web designer. I then continued to read up on PHP because that was the core coding language used at the company at the time, I then quickly excelled in my department to the point I became the go to guy for questions about bugs in other co-worker's coding. All this started by reading, mind you I hate reading in general but even I will acknowledge it takes less time to learn how to do something by reading a well written guide over trial and error.

In other words I've gotten pretty far just by reading and implementing what I've read. This statement is true about this game as well.

As to your comment about a "real" gamer goes out and figures it out on their own, if the game industry listened to you, it would go bankrupt very fast. In 2008 10% of the gamer market hated tutorials and found them unnecessary because they could figure out how to play on their own (this would be the hardcore demographic). No one in the game industry designs for that 10% because 90%is way more money, and that 10% will still likely play your game just sprinting through the tutorials. Now that the money has shifted further into the casual demographic that number is probably around 5% (dunno current numbers as I only consult now-a-days).

The fact is a "real" gamer will read how to play a game over figuring it out because the majority play a game to relax not to run hundreds of tests to figure out how to best play the game.

[Panthera]

Have you ever used an EXP scroll or level synced?

Have you? What's your point?

[Zagen]

Have you? What's your point?

Pretty sure the point was that it on a much smaller scale is the same effect of leeching as it was "free" EXP. Not saying it was a good example I just saw the comparison.

[Panthera]

That's the kind of person that ends up on my blacklist to thinking they can tell people what to do. lol

Those with PLs think they can tell me how my own party is going to be. It's an imposition of will either way, so you would have to black list them as well. You see, in either case, someone is trying to get their own way, there is not difference in that, and you'd have to black list everybody. Surely, you're not arguing for the individual's right to do as they please in team-based MMO, are you? And are you not yourself trying to impose your will upon those still on PS2, and tell them how they are going to play--and that they play your way, or not at all? If I used your logic, I'd have to black list you on forums, which I'm not as yet going to do.


It's not a matter of not needing a PL, it's a matter of expiditing the lvling proccess which in itself has nothing to do with the other content of the game that makes it worth playing.

I would refer you to the raise the abyssea cap to 75 for the discussion of leveling up as an inherent part of an RPG.

[Tokiro]

Those with PLs think they can tell me how my own party is going to be. It's an imposition of will either way, so you would have to black list them as well. You see, in either case, someone is trying to get their own way, there is not difference in that, and you'd have to black list everybody. Surely, you're not arguing for the individual's right to do as they please in team-based MMO, are you? And are you not yourself trying to impose your will upon those still on PS2, and tell them how they are going to play--and that they play your way, or not at all? If I used your logic, I'd have to black list you on forums, which I'm not as yet going to do.



I would refer you to the raise the abyssea cap to 75 for the discussion of leveling up as an inherent part of an RPG.

Although I don't care whether people leech or not, I personally don't do it just because I had such a great time levelling the hard way. My first job was DRG. At that time, it was nigh on impossible to get a PT invite as a DRG and as a taru DRG, well, let's just say I know every inch of Jeuno... I started building parties of my own and ended up going to 75 with my own parties except for two. It is a grind if you don't like the process, but I enjoyed trying to find the best gear for each level and spending (too much) gil on things I would only use for 5 or so levels. That was fun. It doesn't mean I can't appreciate getting jobs up to 90 in a matter of days, but I like the grind. My linkshell was also really into going out in small parties to get as much EXP as possible with the weirdest job mix. That was fun, too.
I also have to support Panthera in the PL stakes. I never took a PL with me and never allowed one to help. No one ever blacklisted me (as far as I know) and no one complained if I refused the help. I think it's great that everyone has a different experience in this game and I am happy for anyone who enjoys playing. If you ask someone, though, whether they think leeching is good or bad and that person says bad, hey, you asked, right? Don't judge others by your own standards, either. Just because you would blacklist an anti-PL player doesn't mean everyone would. Your friends would maybe do that, but that's just a case of birds of a feather...

[Horadrim]

You should add to your list:

8) How many of the games storylines have you completed?

Storyline (What's been completed or done)

-3 Nation Rank (Windy, Sandy)

-3 Nation Quest (WotG) (Sandy)

-Zilart (Done)
Apocalypse Nigh (Done)
-CoP (Done)

ToAU (Done)

WotG (Done)

Abyssea (Done) (Defeated Shinryu) (Don't have Atma of the savior)

ACP (Done)

AMKD (Done)

ASA (haven't finished yet)

Story completion isn't a red-badge of courage either. I spent 7 years playing this game, and between having to restart on a regular basis, dealing with shitty linkshells, hopping servers to play with long-time friends, and generally just never meeting reliable people who actually needed to get things done, I've yet to be able to finish any of the major story lines.

I can remember the months I wasted trying to get promies done -- which accounted for a large chunk of time I neglected leveling. When I ended my stint with the game I had over 5,000k EXP with SCH and PUP 75 and BLU72. Now since Abyssea came out, I have BLM90, SCH82, PUP82, and BLU76. Leveling should have never been as stupidly time consuming as it was. As you all can probably attest to: hitting level 75 was not proof of any degree of skill, you constantly had know-it-all idiots ruining dynamis and Einherjar runs at level 75, and fools who constantly missed Assault meeting times.

Abyssea/Leeching is having no more ill-effects on the game and its quality of player than any of the nonsensical idiocy and noobism we suffered under back in the "good old days."

The difference now is you can get your leveling done quick and focus on finding competent allies.


Although I don't care whether people leech or not, I personally don't do it just because I had such a great time levelling the hard way. My first job was DRG. At that time, it was nigh on impossible to get a PT invite as a DRG and as a taru DRG, well, let's just say I know every inch of Jeuno... I started building parties of my own and ended up going to 75 with my own parties except for two. It is a grind if you don't like the process, but I enjoyed trying to find the best gear for each level and spending (too much) gil on things I would only use for 5 or so levels. That was fun. It doesn't mean I can't appreciate getting jobs up to 90 in a matter of days, but I like the grind. My linkshell was also really into going out in small parties to get as much EXP as possible with the weirdest job mix. That was fun, too.
I also have to support Panthera in the PL stakes. I never took a PL with me and never allowed one to help. No one ever blacklisted me (as far as I know) and no one complained if I refused the help. I think it's great that everyone has a different experience in this game and I am happy for anyone who enjoys playing. If you ask someone, though, whether they think leeching is good or bad and that person says bad, hey, you asked, right? Don't judge others by your own standards, either. Just because you would blacklist an anti-PL player doesn't mean everyone would. Your friends would maybe do that, but that's just a case of birds of a feather...

I can attest to missing some of the elements of old school leveling -- but no one does it anymore. Trying to pretend like its the same just cheapens the memory of how good it was at times, to me, and reminds you of how bad it could get when you run into people who are only doing it because they don't know better.

My only complaint with this argument, because I'm willing to leech my jobs and don't really care beyond that, is the silly stigma people put on players who leech or otherwise don't know what thing or another about a job they're playing. Leveling has never. NEVER taught you 100% of what you needed to know to do endgame content, yet for as long as I remember, 80% of the elistists you run into demanded you have experience or gtfo. The problem has never been leveling too quickly (Which people claimed was lowering the quality of player as early bad as the discovery of bird parties and TP/Mana burns...) -- its almost always been how unwilling people are to actually TEACH people who want to learn how to do things better without being assholes in the process.

I don't know how many times I get stupidly sarcastic responses ("Don't die.") when asking "Any specific instructions or things I should know for this NM?" in Abyssea, only to have people throw a shitfit if I cast a nuke at the wrong time and have the mob do a TP move and absorb the spell. Didn't I ask if there was anything I should know? How is it my fault that you decided to be a jerk instead of give me a straight answer about a mob I know nothing about? (Side note, this is an example from my early experiences with Abyssea, before I really knew how anything worked.)

Much of my experience with endgame over the years as been to that effect -- and there's more wrong with that than there will ever be with leeching.

[Tokiro]

I can attest to missing some of the elements of old school leveling -- but no one does it anymore. Trying to pretend like its the same just cheapens the memory of how good it was at times, to me, and reminds you of how bad it could get when you run into people who are only doing it because they don't know better.

My only complaint with this argument, because I'm willing to leech my jobs and don't really care beyond that, is the silly stigma people put on players who leech or otherwise don't know what thing or another about a job they're playing. Leveling has never. NEVER taught you 100% of what you needed to know to do endgame content, yet for as long as I remember, 80% of the elistists you run into demanded you have experience or gtfo. The problem has never been leveling too quickly (Which people claimed was lowering the quality of player as early bad as the discovery of bird parties and TP/Mana burns...) -- its almost always been how unwilling people are to actually TEACH people who want to learn how to do things better without being assholes in the process.

I don't know how many times I get stupidly sarcastic responses ("Don't die.") when asking "Any specific instructions or things I should know for this NM?" in Abyssea, only to have people throw a shitfit if I cast a nuke at the wrong time and have the mob do a TP move and absorb the spell. Didn't I ask if there was anything I should know? How is it my fault that you decided to be a jerk instead of give me a straight answer about a mob I know nothing about? (Side note, this is an example from my early experiences with Abyssea, before I really knew how anything worked.)

Much of my experience with endgame over the years as been to that effect -- and there's more wrong with that than there will ever be with leeching.

As I said in my post, I don't despise people who leech, I just don't like doing it personally because I enjoy the grind. So many people complained about the levelling process and the huge amounts of EXP necessary to level that it was made more and more easy to get to 75 and now 90. That changed the game. People don't do it now because they don't have to. It's become a non-option because no one will do it. Does that mean that people who do are doing it because they don't know any better? I take umbrance with that comment. They probably do know 'better' but think that it is not necessarily 'better'. A lot of people see leveling as just that. The name shows what people think of it. It is a grind that has to be done to reach a level. Many others, including myself, don't see it that way. I can go to Abyssea, I can leech, but that way I don't get to do a lot of the stuff I do when I'm in a normal party. I like that stuff. Getting crap EXP with a bunch of weirdos whose only goal is not to wipe too much :) I don't see leveling as leveling, I see it as part of the game and I like it. I make no apologies for that. And on this forum, where the OP was 'What do you think?' we, the non-leechers, are allowed to show a different perspective. I would go for a crappy little party with Panthera and you would leech. So what? Both of us win, right? I just don't get to the levels you do so quickly. And I'm very happy with it being that way because that's what it's all about.
As for the stuff about stigma, it goes both ways. You get people who have old-schooled all their jobs dissing those who haven't, and you get people who diss old-school for not knowing about endgame. Unfortunately, your comments about not learning about endgame through leveling really isn't the point. If someone levels from 30~90 in a week, of course they can go into endgame battles and do an awesome job. But that's usually all they do. That's their goal. It's not mine (at least not entirely) and I think non-leechers are merely saying that endgame is not the be all and end all of FFXI. Nothing more, nothing less. We can all quote morons from past experiences who crapped on us (I got kicked from a party in Qufim for lotting on a Carbuncle ruby because 'I only started this game to get summoner, and I'm not giving it up for a turd like you!' <kick>). I don't think you believe non-leechers are all anti-leechers, just as I don't think you're an endgame queen (correct me if I'm wrong ;) ). We just see things differently and that's OK.

[Horadrim]

[QUOTE=Tokiro;154690]

I think you took my statement about "knowing better" too literally. It was just a figure of speech.

If I had people worth leveling with and jobs I actually liked to level, I'd probably do it the old school way -- but all of the jobs I used to want to level (Except DRG) are already 70+.

The bit about the endgame stuff is the reoccurring argument I see against leeching. "These noobs refuse to learn the job and ruin everything. Leveling is too fast to make good players now." Is something I hear constantly from people who are, themselves, in Abyssea as they type the message out. I just don't see why any of this is an issue to people. Leech, don't leech, as long as you educate your fellow gamers politely it doesn't matter how they got to level 90.

[Octaviane]

Rosina: Sounds to me like you are another Starcade, if not Starcade under another name. According to you, everyone is a cheat no matter what they are doing and you are beginning to introduce some not so nice language into your posts. We, and you too are entitled to our various opinions. Remember, you do not pay for others to play. Some people here deserve a /slap, others a thumbs up, but there is no need to start raging about something you can't change. Have the grace please to accept that which you cannot change, otherwise, play the game in whichever manner you see fit or leave.

[Leonlionheart]

We, and you too are entitled to our various opinions.

But your opinion is so wrong!

lol

[Octaviane]

According to you I guess, enjoy :)

[Leonlionheart]

. _ .

That's your opinion again, what did I tell you about that...

lol I'm JK though.<- Highlight me

[Theytak]

I love threads where two sides argue pointlessly, each side missing key information that the other side has, and yet assuming that the other side has said missing key information. This thread is all sorts of lulz.

Let me help you guys out.

Pro-leecher people are individuals who put more value in instant-gratification game play. Back in Hard-core FFXI, we used to joke about how wow sucked because it was so easy, everything was just handed to you.

Conversely, Anti-leecher people are those who value the increased sense of reward one feels after putting time and effort into achieving something.

You can tell which side you fall to based on how you look at old-school grinding.

In the case of someone like Leon, it's obvious he's of the instant-gratification mindset, based on how he describes the old grind as, to paraphrase, "killing 90000 crabs and crawlers". Conversely, someone like Rosina is of the effort-for-reward side, acknowledging the experience in teamwork and the lessons learned through slow-grind.

Both sides to the argument are legitimate and have completely acceptable and understandable viewpoints on leeches. At the end of the day, you'll wind up playing with people who are like-minded in regards to reward vs effort, because you won't be able to tolerate being around the other mindset, and regardless, the fact that everyone accepts that it's not gear, but rather competence, that makes a player good or bad is the important thing. (IE: I'd pick someone in shit-meh gear who knew how to play their job over someone in amazing gear including relic/empy weapon that was as dumb as a sack of hammers and approached content that requires strategy with the same mindset of "buttonmash and hope for the best, because my gear is awesome".)

[Meyi]

There's nothing wrong with wanting relatively quick gratification. I personally prefer working for things, but being guaranteed to eventually obtain them if I put in the work, such as Magians.

As for leveling, it was fun. I enjoyed it for about five of my jobs. But it got old. I didn't find the enjoyment in it anymore and I find Abyssea much more enjoyable. The fast pace, the big numbers, all of it is what I call exciting.

[Leonlionheart]

I have a problem.

My party just took over the north A La Theine Plateau camp so I can leech.

[Rosina]

I have a problem.

My party just took over the north A La Theine Plateau camp so I can leech.

this made me lol XD

Sorry for my icky comment was in a bit of a foul mood.

All in all my stand point is unless ok'ed by a party. Leeching is rude. Just do not like the superiority complex on "i leech and abd better then anyone who don't leech" << comments like this give polite leechers a bad name.

So again sorry for my posts from before :)

[Olor]

Take a real life example, you can read up on how to make a cake and decorate it all you want. But you will never really learn if yiu do not physically learn how to do it. If simply reading stuff makes people "good" at their jobs we would all be rich since we would master any sorta of job.


I read a book about HTML, XHTML, and CSS which got me a job as a entry level web designer. I then continued to read up on PHP because that was the core coding language used at the company at the time, I then quickly excelled in my department to the point I became the go to guy for questions about bugs in other co-worker's coding. All this started by reading, mind you I hate reading in general but even I will acknowledge it takes less time to learn how to do something by reading a well written guide over trial and error.

In other words I've gotten pretty far just by reading and implementing what I've read. This statement is true about this game as well.



I had a similar experience to Zagen. Got a job doing communications, then got asked to write a press release - I googled "how to write a press release" copied the formatting, used common sense for the messaging, sweet talked a few reporters, and made a name for myself in the organization as someone who was good at what I did. I don't have a post-secondary degree but I work in a knowledge based industry alongside people with their master's degrees.


"If simply reading stuff makes people "good" at their jobs we would all be rich since we would master any sorta of job."

Except that some people suck at reading, other people suck at learning from reading, many people are too lazy to even bother reading, and a good number of people are too stupid to apply what they read to what they do, so in the end, most people don't end up mastering anything, let alone "any job."

There are some things you need hands on experience for, but most things can be learned from a well written instruction manual. And as for school, most of it is bullsht.

In fact, going to university and getting a random degree teaches you just as much about most real life jobs, as 6-man grind parties teach a person about how to play their XI job - which is very little.

Unless you're going to find a job writing essays and taking exams, there is very little practical knowledge to be gained from the typical liberal arts degree. And unless you're going to be killing loleasy pink birds and crabs in six man parties for endgame, there is very little you will learn in them that you can't learn by tooling around with a friend or reading a message board/wiki.

[Rosina]

I more or less was trying to say, you read how to make a cake and all of a sudden just buy reading, your a master cake maker. (pretty much with out EVER making a cake)

[Olor]

I more or less was trying to say, you read how to make a cake and all of a sudden just buy reading, your a master cake maker. (pretty much with out EVER making a cake)

But you're saying sauteing some greens (which is just putting some greens in a pan) will give you the experience to be a master cake maker.

The way you play when you exp is, in my experience, UTTERLY DIFFERENT from the way you play on anything that matters, unless what you are doing is so straight forward and obvious that you can learn to do it in minutes.

There are exceptions - Like I think soloing exp on bst can help teach how to solo other things, just cause you deal with a significantly larger amount of "oh shi... moments than you do in a party and cause it is pretty much the same thing in a lot of cases.

[Aeonk]

I WILL PARSE YOU RIGHT NOW ON WAR

OR CURE PARSE YOU RIGHT NOW ON WHM

OR TANK PARSE YOU RIGHT NOW ON WAR W/ WHM

IT'S GOING DOWN

Pfft the only way to throw down in game is Ballista!

[Leonlionheart]

Pfft the only way to throw down in game is Ballista!

I'd do that too, but on BLU or BLM.

That's not the point though, It's been said that leeches can't bring anything of value, where I know that my jobs, leeched and unleeched, are indeed more understood and well geared than 90% of the players you come across.

[Korpg]

All in all my stand point is unless ok'ed by a party.

Therein lies the real responsibility of the fate of the leecher.

If the party is ok by having the leecher there (be him the party/alliance leader or not) then by all means, the leecher shall leech. If not, the party has 2 choices: MPK the leecher, or in case there isn't a THF in the party/alliance and/or the leecher is the party/alliance leader, leave the party.

[Rosina]

Pfft the only way to throw down in game is Ballista!

umm brenner also.

[Korpg]

Like PVP will tell you anything about a PVE environment.

[Rosina]

@Olor (lex) LOL sorry had to

not really saying that and honestly exp party does improve how you are in say sky or other events. You Learn your skill timing and hate management in exp parties. And Learn how to handle being in groups. If you group with the same players over and over, and meet them up in a event LS you tend to know how they play.

Your job doesn't change much from exp to events. Only really what skills you use more. But the basics are still the same. I did do events such as sky and dynamks prior to quiting. But I'm not that big on end game due to the superiority complex people have during end game.
Not my cup o tea.

[Rosina]

Like PVP will tell you anything about a PVE environment.

expect the unexpected :) there is a good pvp lesson for pve.

[Korpg]

expect the unexpected :) there is a good pvp lesson for pve.

I learned that from soloing, not fighting other players.

[Olor]

I learned that from soloing, not fighting other players.

yeah nothing like having your pet crawler decharm near another crawler and then the two of them run by another crawler... lol, that will teach you do deal with the unexpected all right.

[Korpg]

yeah nothing like having your pet crawler decharm near another crawler and then the two of them run by another crawler... lol, that will teach you do deal with the unexpected all right.

Expect the unexpected. In other words, plan for that contingency. Don't fight near other crawlers. Find a hole to camp from. Was easy enough for me when I soloed BST to 66. Never died on that job, which is much more than I can say for any other job.

[Olor]

Expect the unexpected. In other words, plan for that contingency. Don't fight near other crawlers. Find a hole to camp from. Was easy enough for me when I soloed BST to 66. Never died on that job, which is much more than I can say for any other job.

Yeah, I learned the hard way.

;)

[Korpg]

That is the point. A good player will adapt to any situation. A bad player will keep dying and never realize why.

On this topic, neither of them has anything to do with leeching, so leeching should not be the basis of determining if the leecher is a good or bad player.

[SNK]

This the SNK that was on Unicorn for a bit? If so, I'd thought you'd put Dragoon as your Main Job.

You'd think but I'd honestly loved my BST more then my DRG. The fact I spent the time getting a Farsha sorta decided it for me. And yes I be the same SNK from then.

[Zatias]

Example of bad player:

We go into Grauberg for Dom Ops.
Ally leader designates a fulltime puller.
Ally leader tells everyone to stay around Dom OPs person while that puller brought mobs.
lolWAR goes out to fight alone, dies, and screams DOES NO ONE HERE CURE!!?
I (though on a non-healing job) retort with DO YOU NOT LISTEN?
lolWAR, whose name looks like he smashed his own face on the keyboard to create, homepoints and disbands.

I just wanted to share that with you guys. It sure made me laugh.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Pro-leecher people are individuals who put more value in instant-gratification game play.No, pro leech people are mostly individuals who do not see the hours of pointless grinding of levels as content.