AoE=Dead Wyvern

[Gotterdammerung]

Please,
change these 4 things.

#1 remove a wyvern's capability to accumulate hate. after this change the wyvern would never be on any enmity list and would never be capable of drawing the monsters attention.

#2 make the wyvern immune to damage from any source.

(change #1 is to prevent abuse by using immortal wyvern to kill things)

#3 remove the wyvern healing factor from spirit link as it would not be needed anymore.

#4 find a different bonus for wyvern pdt mdt regen gear.


This change is needed due to the fact that in any real fight scenario it is unreasonable task to keep ur wyvern alive. With only 1 healing source that is slowly replenished it is not enuf to deal with the onslaught of AoE's in party situations or the massive slams of boss fight AoEs. Without our wyverns drg is a very plain DD class. Keeping it alive has become so much of a bother that many people dont even try anymore. And for those drgs who love to solo, it is becoming increasingly hard due to the flimsyness of our cohorts, as many of the new NMs have hard hitting Aga's and AoE TP moves that they use very often.

So in conclusion please consider these changes. As they would allow us to benefit from our wyvern again instead of babysitting our wyvern like we do now.

[Laverda]

I don't think the current situation is broken. I started with DRG when Call Wyvern was our 2-hour, and I had few problems keeping my wyvern alive then. On a 20-minute timer it's very much easier. Sure, you have to take care, but it's not exactly hard.

We've always had to choose in particular our solo fights carefully. There are some fights we can do, and some we can't. That's true of most jobs, every one has its strengths and weaknesses.

Having to take care of your wyvern is what makes Dragoon the job it is. Without having to do that, it would become the exact plain DD class you want to avoid.

[Pikel]

I do agree having to take care of our wyvern is a fun aspect of the job I do so enjoy. This is what seperates the dragoons from the leeches to me. I also agree having solo'd a lot on Nin Bst and Drg that their is and always should be some mobs each job can do and some they can't. That being said their has to be some sort of improvement on the wyverns durability.

Their seems to be one heck of an influx of AoE spells or tp moves or conal attacks that just totally destroys my wyvern. Now on these monsters I'm not asking to make wyverns totally immune so we can go around and solo everything but event if in party situations my wyvern is taken out fast because of these moves it makes me sad I can't just have him out for display.

I don't care if it's a new damage reduction ability for our wyverns, something we could do to significantly boost Spirit Links cure, or if there's some new and awesome usable job atmas where are wyverns can deal with aoes. I just find even with a 3 min timer on Spirit Link I have problems keeping my wyvern alive to the next 20 min call wyvern. Even then watching him die makes me cry a little inside....

[noodles355]

I don't think the OPs ideas are good at all, I'm sorry to say. We need to be realistic with our suggestions to SE.

To be honest the only thing I think the wyvern could do with getting is Healing Breath IV at Lv95-99.

[Wenceslao]

It's our duty as DRG to take care of our pet, i really don't have problems to keep my wyvern a live, empathy can help us a lot with the protects, shells, stoneskins, etc, etc, we have super jump and other source to keep us and our wyverns alive, i know our recast timers aren't that fast, but if you doing a HNM or something alike, you're likely adventuring with other players so we should have no problems keeping the pet alive, well i speak on my experience as DRG, i started the job when our wyvern was 2hr and i never had problems keeping her alive

[Wenceslao]

maybe a more reasonable demand would be heard from SE, like using petfood...

[Pikel]

Ok an example here I did the mission Smash! A Malevolent Menace as dragoon. Now I might have had better job options but that's another story. In this fight there were so many aoe's and so much damage being spammed around I didn't call my wyvern out until I needed to 2hr just to ensure it would be alive. This isn't the only instance I've done that to me it's an exceptable strategy for ensuring you have a wyvern when the time comes you need to 2hr. Now why would you need to ensure you have a wyvern to 2hr? Because it dies way to fast. I understand their should be a lot of monsters that can suck for dragoon and a lot missions or bcnm's that dragoon just doesn't work for. I just feel like the original poster that currently wyverns die to fast when dealing with mass confusion or high volume of mob kills that have aoe's.

I personally have my pet out and ready to call another most of the time. In abyssea if I am melee'in it's easy and doesn't matter and pet will live. If it's hard you typically get triggers and then watch someone else do all the work. Outside of abyssea when I did endgame you spent so much time traveling that you could let your pet die often and still have one ready because of the amount of travel time between nm's or camps. I just think if I'm in a low man group killing a nothing nm like flame skimmer I shouldn't have to recall my dead pet because one spirit link won't save it from the aoe spam. Or riding all my timers cause I'm hit with a million ga's in a worm party.

Maybe because I love dragoon so much I'm just being petty but keeping a wyvern out is alot different then keeping a wyvern alive. I would much rather have some sort of method to better handle damage to our wyverns then to learn how to ride the only timer we got to get us through till our next call wyvern is up.

[Gotterdammerung]

thank you for the insightful support Pikel.

i would like to add that these changes wouldnt be unbalanced as long as u made both the first 2 changes.

If you think about wat is actually being changed all this does is ensure a drg always has his wyvern.

Wats so bad about that? I for one believe a Dragoon SHOULD always have his wyvern.
by removing the ability of the wyvern to gain hate a drg is unable to abuse this change via super jump + turn away.
By making a wyvern immune to all dmg u ensure the job is able to utilize its Job abilities.
Some people might be thinking "naw this would be broke cuz they can then just keep healing breath >:O "
But those of us who actually play dragoon know that main healing urself with healing breath is tricky enuf without having to worry about keeping ur wyvern alive, and definately wouldnt be broke if u didnt have to worry about keeping it alive.
At the very least, the incredibly long cast time of healing breath would keep it from being broke.


For those that say there are plenty of NMs where a wyvern is easy to keep alive, those NMs are either tiny NMs or old NMs. I dont see why a job should have to do 80% of the content at half potential. I mean if i were to ask you how u keep ur wyvern alive when ur meleeing a Iron Giant (AoE regular swings) would u tell me Dragoons just not good for that NM type? Well for me thats unacceptable. I shouldnt lose a huge part of wat defines my job, especially not on the majority of all NMs.

I know the job very well. I am good at it as well. Im not suggesting this change because i "suck" and cant deal. I have kept my wyvern alive thru an entire dynamis jueno run. Thats not the point. The change needs to happen because in a lot of situations the tools given to us to keep our flimsy low hp wyvern alive are inadequate and the recast timer once it dies is beyond too long.

[Raiven]

I'd be happy with DT-50% and double... nah triple HP. It's just so awesome having a dead wyvern for 90% of the time in Abyssea NM runs because of AoE spam. If i'm doing a run and rotating say, Sobek > Ahmuluk > Cirein-Croin, then there is literally no way my wyvern is going to survive longer than 5 mins. As soon as it's gone I can wave bye bye to Soul Jump & Spirit Jump being effective, TP from Spirit Link, Restoring Breath/lolSmiting Breath, have zero chance of an AF3+2 set bonus proc and can't even use my 2hr. It's a ridiculous amount of stuff to lose constantly and the main reason I rarely touch DRG for more powerful NM's. Throw us a frickin' bone SE.

[JagerForrester]

Looking at Dragoon's AF, Relic, and Empyrean, our wyverns are given boosts. And in some occasions while I am soloing, my wyvern will beat me in attacks. That always made me think that they "could" duo tank with its dragoon. With Healing Breath and Spirit Link with the right gear for wyverns, could we challenge them to take more hits than to just be an add-on damage?

[Laverda]

How about just making cruor stat buffs affect pets?

[Gotterdammerung]

How about just making cruor stat buffs affect pets?

Yeh! then my bst jug pets would have 6000-10k HP! And my wyvern would get a huge boost to healing breath! ALL for FREE!
Not to mention an across the board performance boost fro the stats!
Oh wait, nvm, dont do that... cuz its unbalanced.

[Smed]

Cruor buffs DO get placed on our wyverns; to see this in action simply get your wyvern below 100% hp and get the HP buff. They (like us) are instantly refilled to 100% at the new total.
As for a way to fix the dead wyvern issues, just let them be targetable by cures/waltzes and let them healing breath themselves. It IS possible already to force them to target themselves (if your wyvern is readying a healing breath on a party member and the member is no longer in your party, they default breathing on themselves). I can't count the number of times I've dropped pt to force her to heal herself. Eventually people get used to it.

[Dais]

There's a few threads with this issue mentioned but it's good to directly address it.
My own Idea is to give the wyvern a passive trait that reduces its damage taken by 50-75% -but only on attacks that do not directly target it. We also need a way to have it stand in place and not move into aoe range of a spammy monster and a range extension on healing breath. We need the healing breath range increase even if the wyvern still follows us honestly.
What they did with the af3/empyrean +2 helm is a step in the right direction but too unreliable. It did cause my wyvern to recover 0 rather than die to rani's meteor yesterday so I can say it has saved him at least once.

[Daremo]

Is it possible some people don't actually see how insanely broken this suggestion would be?

Step 1: Suggestion is implemented.
Step 2: Get 5 Drgs and a Pld.
Step 3: Drgs hit Boss WhatHaveYou once, use Super Jump, move out of AoE range while Pld fights as normal.
Step 4: Spam Healing Breath to keep Pld alive while immortal wyverns pile on damage.
Step 5: Wait.
Step 6: You just won the game!


So, no.

[Raiven]

Pets don't get cruor buffs, they do get Atma buffs though. This is very easy to check using Healing Breath or even just looking at an Automaton's equipment menu. I don't see how the 5 DRG and a PLD thing is "insanely broken". What would you even do that on? Just take a MNK & WHM to whatever you need killed. Problem sorted. The real problem here is how insanely gimped DRG becomes when you lose your wyvern. They need a considerable defensive boost or to be made easily replaceable, end of story. They die too easily at far too much of a cost to our usefulness.

[Daremo]

What would people do that on? Two things: Anything. And. Everything. Show people a fool-proof, and free way to kill mobs, and they'll do it. Want more? Ok, how about any drg with Crimson Cuisses could then solo any mob without enhanced movement speed or draw in? Hit once, kite til dead. Face it, free, constant, non-hate attracting damage and healing is inherently broken, and this suggestion just leaps off the freakin' cliff with it's over reaction.

I do think a damage reduction trait(Stout Servant, say starting at 50 and 5% every 10 levels and level 99) and an inherent regen(1/tic at level 1, +1 every 25 levels and level 99) wouldn't be doing overboard.

[Gotterdammerung]

These "tactics" u are submitting as "broken" alredy exist in the game for other classes.

Your 5drg healers and 1 pld thing. Can be duplicated with actually BETTER results with 1 mnk and 1 whm. But even if u brought it to equal terms. 5 whms 1 anything. hell 3 dncs 1 mnk 1 whm 1 thf. Point is your saying "NOOO ITS BOKRE then 6 people could kill an NM! noooooo" when that is alredy possible with 1-3 people.

Your crimson movment speed abuse dragoon supposition.
This not only would take TOO LONG TO BE WORTH IT, but is alredy employed by ANY job with a DOT source and movement speed plus. Red mages have been soloing NMs with this DoT kite strategy for years. pups employ a similar system when they pet nuke/deactivate/kite til hate loss repeat.

I dare you to come up with an "broke" scenario for this change. I mean one that holds water.

[Daremo]

As if the time factor ever stopped people from tying up mob for hours on end in the first place.

Those other jobs are in danger, and actively doing stuff, and can possibly fail. Immortal wyverns remove all those barriers. Recasting DoT, damage to your puppet, eating a sudden TP move, all can spell doom for those other jobs. What spells doom for an immortal wyvern? Hit once, wait. Maybe have someone to hold hate off of that one hit. It's not the style of fighting that makes it broken, but the sheer unstopabilty of it. You might as well take the wyvern out and just give drg a 100/tic DoT job ability with no recast timer and 500 HP/minute. It's the same effect.

[Gotterdammerung]

A kiting Drg would also have oppurtunities of risk. First of all, he would have to fight engaged with means never getting ahead of the NM more than 30 yalms (range for auto-disengage). This puts him at a much greater risk of getting caught by spells. not to mention kiting while engaged and unlocked is actually more difficult than kiting while disengaged. Also while he might have movement speed plus his wyvern would spend most of the fight catching up. This means the fight would go very very slowly. The risk of slow fights is in exposure. The longer it takes to kill it the more oppurtunities it has to catch u making 1 mistake.

[Anucris]

I'd be happy with DT-50% and double... nah triple HP. It's just so awesome having a dead wyvern for 90% of the time in Abyssea NM runs because of AoE spam. If i'm doing a run and rotating say, Sobek > Ahmuluk > Cirein-Croin, then there is literally no way my wyvern is going to survive longer than 5 mins. As soon as it's gone I can wave bye bye to Soul Jump & Spirit Jump being effective, TP from Spirit Link, Restoring Breath/lolSmiting Breath, have zero chance of an AF3+2 set bonus proc and can't even use my 2hr. It's a ridiculous amount of stuff to lose constantly and the main reason I rarely touch DRG for more powerful NM's. Throw us a frickin' bone SE.

This post pointed out just how weak we become once our wyvern dies. and like most players these days i spend a lot of time in abyssea. so id like to make a little list of what I believe to be somewhat reasonable solutions
-Wyvern defense bonus/Major magic defense bonus/elemental resistance bonus/DT%
-Wyvern merit category to boost defense/mag defense/ele resistance/Hp/breath strength/DT%
-Replace empyrean body bonus with something more useful (i dont even use food anymore) something like "Wyvern HP+10%, def/mag def +50" +2 could be even more (15%/+70) (the % also makes wyv HP+ equipement a little more desireable because they will get a small boost i.e. the pelerine instead of +30 would be +33 with +1/34.5 with +2) there could also be a hidden effect DT-5/10%
-Choose what buffs transfer with spirit link somehow....This would not be enough and maybe troublesome to the player.
-Higher Proc rate on empyrean helm +1=25%, +2=50% i could live with 20/40, and with the body adjustment very nice.
-When empyrean helm procs wyvern Healing Breaths the amount absorbed beyond his full health. i.e.
wyver hp = 900/1200 he absorbs 500 from aoe -> triggers auto HB for 200 to dragoon.

There are a lot of options (I can thing of many more, too many to list) and I personally would like to see SEVERAL of these become realities. with addition of a "Provoke" or "Enmity transfer" (seperate super jump and super climb, make super climb a pet command) pet command they could take a few hits on some mobs while u get a few seconds of relief.

[Samunai]

i dont think we have to change what's been said in the first post. If he is a drg and he think that has to be changed = he aint a drg.

Altho i do share the annoying feeling my wyvern dies like after 5 min recalling (like in events) and then drop form a b+/a- dd to a D+ -.-'

so i want to suggest: Dues Ax Wyvern :D (yes im a pup player too and <3 that new ability)

i hope u guys want such a thing too ^^ just calla 10% wyvern; rest it up and gogoogoooooo (yes rest, no spirit link cheats! rawrawr)

[Rambus]

I did not read all the posts, just the OP and a few saying his ideas are OP. His ideas are OP but I see where he is comming from, that is in abyssea. too meny mobs have AOE that one shots or 2 shots the wyvern and some of these NMs use tp move every 5 seconds. All I get to do on rani is run in ws and run out and even then my wyvern tends to die. When I brew she dies.

So yeah I like something done, maybe allow cour buffs, atma buffs be copied on wyvern, have wyvern a bit stronger under brew ( not full effect like we have, can empathy even work on thew brew buff?)

[Lancil]

Atma buffs are already copied to our wyverns, and I don't see how giving cruor buffs would help. All that does is add an imbalance to the healing breath. It is true that your wyvern may survive 1 or 2 additional AoEs now, but how are you going to heal all that hp? After spirit link you are still in the same boat as before.

[Gotterdammerung]

Ok what about a pet command instead.

Bulwark- active til re-used. While bulwark is in effect a wyvern will stop all attacks and focus on evading all damage.

This would give u a choice of using an offensive but risky wyvern or a safe back line defensive healing wyvern that u could rely on to fuel your job abilities.

Heres another possible JA that might help

Body Link
Recast 5 min
Duration 5 min

While this stance is active the dragoon shares healing with their wyvern. This causes a dragoon to receive 50% of the healing and the wyvern to receive the other 50%.



i think it has enough downsides to be balanced and enuf upsides to be worth having 1 more tool at our disposal to keep the lil bastard alive.

[JagerForrester]

I'd just max out Spirit Link Merits, Deep Breathing Merits, and constantly push those abilities (+Restoring Breath) if my wyvern would die that much, or just not have my wyvern out and deal with the lower tier jumps.

Either the WHM gets mad at me for healing me too much because I keep healing my wyvern, or I get mad for the party choosing a monster that keeps killing my wyvern.

[Anucris]

I couldnt live with myself if i merited SL instead of jump recasts. and DB instead of angon ouch (actaully I should take that one i put in strafe and use on DB). definately couldnt deal with the lower tier jumps when my soul/spirit do 450-1k each! I believe meriting DB is a waste because u still will only use it once in a fight due to recast time. does every job have like 2 obvious merit abilities and the rest wastes?

i just cant settle being a C- DD to keep my wyvern alive.

[JagerForrester]

I couldn't live with myself either if I merited my DRG like that too. Guess I didn't sound like I exaggerated that post enough.
My wyvern dies? Well, my wyvern died. I spirit linked when I could, super jump what I could get away from. So I'm going to have to wait the w/e minutes to get him back for now.

[Anucris]

lol that sounds more like it.

[Dauntless]

I couldn't live with myself either if I merited my DRG like that too. Guess I didn't sound like I exaggerated that post enough.
My wyvern dies? Well, my wyvern died. I spirit linked when I could, super jump what I could get away from. So I'm going to have to wait the w/e minutes to get him back for now.

The thing about that is even if you merited like that your Wyv would STILL die long before Call Wyvern recast was up. Hopefully in some later update SE changes this

[Limecat]

I'd be perfectly happy with Stay/Autoattack commands. Poor little critters don't really do much damage worth mentioning on the types of NMs that'll nuke them into oblivion, and I'm all for being able to just park mine over by the mages or something.

[Andevom]

#1 remove a wyvern's capability to accumulate hate.


#2 make the wyvern immune to damage from any source.

C'mon man, if you're going to go absurd, go BIG.

[Fumbles]

I find that the Wyvern's ability to take hate can be useful at times. There have been many times when a Super Jump and turn around allowing only the Wyvern to fight has been a lifesaver.

[Returner]

I think the parking idea is great. Make it into a stance for wyvern, while parking, you gain half the bonus from the new jumps, but wyvern stay out of AoE range and able to healing breath you when you WS based on your HP (if 50% or lower HP when WS, wyvern coming over to cure). It should also gain some sort of regen while parking since it is not doing any sort of damage at all.

[Anucris]

The new jumps are one of the best things to happen to drg. Id rather risk my wyvern than sac any bonuses from those attacks.

[Returner]

I think you are missing my point. I said it should be a new "stance", like hasso/seigan, with fairly low recast timer. When you know that the mob you are fighting has alot of AoE, and that your wyvern wouldn't survive for more than 30 sec, you should have the option of parking it so it doesn't get killed while you are still benefit from just having the wyvern alive with the new jumps, in this case, halfed. Of course, in situations where your wyvern wouldn't die from AoE, you can put it on an offensive "stance" so it auto attacks and you get the full benefit of the new jumps with wyvern. It serves as an "option".

I know for sure there are mobs that I wish my wyvern would just stay the hell out of the way, especially NM fighting or soloing.

[Rambus]

Is there any ideas to help our pet live longer in abyssea?

do we really need to use an atma that helps our pet vs our damage? then that puts us disadvantage on our own DD.

past being really OP like the OP said...

to meny op? ><

[Coldbrand]

After getting into a real LS and spending time fighting NMs in Abyssea I can definitely say this is a pretty real issue. My wyvern dies every single fight regardless of what I try to do to stop it. It needs some AoE resistance immediately.

[Soundwave]

Lower the timer on CW, or maybe add a JA that allows your TP to heal your pet?

[Gotterdammerung]

I have yet to see anyone actually define why the original suggestion is overpowered.

It cant be abused in anyway. It simply removes the need to babysit your wyvern. Its not a full fledged pet anyway. We have almost no control over it. I mean if we have to keep full responsibility for its safety then give us full control over its actions.
Maybe its the fact that it actually 100% fixes the problem.

You would rather get something that is like 30% effective at fixing this problem?

[Laciante]

I like not having to micromanage him. If I wanted full control over a pet I'd play BST.
Making them highly resistant to AoE dmg and a "come here" for positioning is all I think is necessary. Oh and also make them incapable of pathing me: either fly higher, or let me move through w/o resistance (but that's not really on topic)

[Wenceslao]

I think the ability to give comands to wyvern should help us (stay, retreat, etc)

[Swords]

I don't think the OPs ideas are good at all, I'm sorry to say. We need to be realistic with our suggestions to SE.

To be honest the only thing I think the wyvern could do with getting is Healing Breath IV at Lv95-99.

Maybe a higher HP pool for our Wyverns to combat some of those insanely high damage AOE's.

[Gotterdammerung]

u cant arbitrarily add hp. The damage and healing of the wyverns breaths are based on hp. A boost to hp large enough to fix the problem would just unbalance the damage of smiting breath and the healing of healing breath.

I only see a few reasonable fixes.

#1 my original suggestion of making it a non-issue.
#2 the idea of a command that makes ur wyvern stay so u can place it out of range of danger. (this one is a weak fix. Most AoEs on bosses are 20 yalms and who knows the range of healing breath...)
#3 Make wyverns targetable by player spells.
#4 Make wyverns immune to AoE sources of damage. Basically they would be damaged by single target damage sources when they took hate.

[Swords]

I always thought there was a hard cap to the amount that wyvern breaths can be enhanced through stats/gear like cure spells or MAB. I always just assumed we could never feesably hit that cap due to limited gear enhancements.

[Mirage]

I am all for an ability (a stance, perhaps) that increased the wyvens survivability in exchange for lowering their offensive capabilities. What seems to be the most logical choice here is to let the wyvern fly higher, out of range of many AoEs. In return, of course, no melee attack rounds. If the dev team thinks "no damage taken from any AoE" is too broken, they could of course make it a 50% damage resistance when using that defensive stance.

When triggering a breath usage, the wyvern would automatically come closer for a short amount of time, during which it could again get hit by AoE moves (and take normal damage from them), but after the breath was over, it would soon go back to it's defensive positioning after not too long. While you still could get unlucky and call it down for a breath at the same time as an AoE is performed, keeping it out of range the rest of the time should reduce the damage it takes over time significantly.

[Faneelk]

While I do agree that taking care of your Wyvern is part of your job as a DRG, no matter how actively you attempt to keep it alive, when an NM, that you'll be fighting 15 times an hour, such as Dragua that spams -agas and other AoEs, your Wyvern will be dead in a matter of seconds.


Here are some possible solutions:
1) Reduce Call Wyvern Timer
2) Allow Cruor Buffs to go to pets. This will not add an unreasonable boost to Healing Breaths. In Pre-Abyssea days, Wyvern Healing Breaths were much more effective, granting a much higher percentage of HP Recovery than it does now. Now, not much has changed in regard to how much HP Healing Breaths grant, making them less effective as they used to be.
3) Grant a moderate DEF bonus, and a major Magic DEF Bonus. While many AoEs in Abyssea are physical, the majority seems to be magic based. Granting a major Physical DEF boost would cause people to make their Wyvern tank.


Please do not:
Give Wyverns invincibility. This would take away a major aspect of DRG, even rendering a certain ability pointless.

[Ophannus]

Who cares about abyssea, those upgrades only help us in one small part of the game. We need universal improvements to wyverns

[Faneelk]

It wasn't as big of a problem until the introduction of Abyssea. First, there is much less downtime in Abyssea than old content. Before, there would be so much running that if your Wyvern died to an AoE or even your own carelessness your timer would already be up. Also, mobs in Abyssea deal significantly higher damage to a Wyvern with virtually unchanged health.