New SMN JA "Possession" Empowering the "Melee SMN"

[kingfury]

If someone has already suggested this I apologize, but if you're asking for more activity while on SMN in regards to melee and more interesting gameplay, it would make the most sense to simply allow the Summoner to be Possessed by Avatars in order to toggle between "Stand and watch mode" and "Melee/Weaponskill + Spell casting mode". This would open the job itself to new versatility in both solo and party situations while vastly expanding on the current and possible new SMN specific "Joint weaponskills" and "Joint spells" that could be birthed from such a union. If a SMN can conjure up an Avatar to fight alongside them, then why not from within as well?

SMN Job Ability- Possession:

Instead of summoning an avatar to fight near by or far away from the summoner, this job ability would summon them to fight from within the summoner themselves. Once this JA is active, the avatar’s strength would now be imbued within the summoner’s melee attacks and new joint weaponskills and joint spells. Additionally, any attack traits associated with the current possessed avatar(such as double attack, Attack speed, def bonus, etc.) would be inherited by the summoner. MP would still be the defining conduit that determines the duration of time the Summoner could remain possessed by an Avatar, and the JA would cease to function should MP fall below a certain amount.
[indent] •Possession example (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/SMNPossession-1.jpg)
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/SMNPossession-1.jpg
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•Possible Avatar Possession characteristics (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/SMNPossession-AvatarChart.jpg)
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/SMNPossession-AvatarChart.jpg


Similar to how Blood Pacts unlock dozens of individual abilities, Possession would unlock an equally vast number of Joint weaponskills and Joint spells per selected Avatar.

Joint Weaponskills:

A "Joint Weaponskill" would be the combination of an Avatar's special attack with that of the selected weapon being wielded by the summoner. Not so much the marrying of Eclipse Bite with Full Swing per say, but rather the creation of a new weaponskill all together like "Eclipse Smash" that would only be available while wielding a staff and being possessed by Fenrir. These new weaponskills would be dependent on TP rather than Blood Pact timers. The strength of these weaponskills could be drawn from both combat and summoning skill levels.
Joint Spells:

Based on the selected Avatar, the list of Joint spells could be swapped based on the situation at hand. These spells would be considered "Joint" due to the fact that both the Summoner and the Avatar would be casting the spell vs just the Avatar. This could, however, alter certain spells design from being party only spells to being target specific spells like "Hasteja" and "Earthen Mold" for example. Spells cast while Possession is in effect could grant a reduction in MP cost per spell to allow some flexibility since MP will be steadily draining while the JA is in use.
This would not be in any way out of context for what a SMN is in terms of job function within this game, but rather just another mode to perform that job function in. The Dev team wouldn't have to introduce any new gear or abilities that would cause them to rework the job function-wise for this new JA to work. Simply combine the two entities and introduce a myriad of new effects and abilities that would allow SMNs to be more active than ever before.

• Karbuncle's detailed descriptions of possible Weaponskills and Stat bonuses from post #4 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11873-New-SMN-JA-Possession-Empowering-the-Melee-SMN?p=151253&viewfull=1#post151253) (Thanks for the great additional concepts Karb)


WARs have Berserk and Defender to toggle between during combat. SAMs have Hasso and Seigan. NINs have Innin and Yonin. This would be the SMN's equivalent. It would also be friggin' awesome to see.

Just a thought.

[Korpg]

A) Avatars are all BLMs. Anything "inherited" would be BLM traits, so it wouldn't help with the "melee" SMN at all.

B) Losing the avatar would make melee SMNs worse off. Their numbers that they state makes them better than Ukon WARs include the huge spike damage from avatars instead of staff WSs that they rely on for MP with.

C) Avatars don't have double attack, attack bonus, defense bonus, or nothing near the actual DD stuff that makes WARs, DRKs, DRGs, and all other front-lines great. Even PLD is more preferred in front because their ability to tank. SMN has nothing that justifies being a front-line.

D) This idea smells like DRG 2hr to me.

[Vold]

I did not see that post coming. True story.

[Karbuncle]

A) Avatars are all BLMs. Anything "inherited" would be BLM traits, so it wouldn't help with the "melee" SMN at all.[quote]

They could adjust an Inheritance for Each avatar instead of a flat "JT" transaction. for instance

1) You Gain a stat boost related to the Avatars Element
*Example: Ifrit=STR+30, Titan=VIT+30, etc

2) You gain a strong Enspell Effect related to Avatars Element

3) A Unique buff is gained based on the Avatar



4) A Unique aura is gained based on the avatar.



5) Combat skills are enhanced.



6) Defenses are enhanced



7) Access to a Unique Staff WS based on Avatar



Sounds like a lot, But we lose our Avatars... So it seems like a fair trade off? Maybe...

[quote]B) Losing the avatar would make melee SMNs worse off. Their numbers that they state makes them better than Ukon WARs include the huge spike damage from avatars instead of staff WSs that they rely on for MP with.

I see your worry here. I do.




D) This idea smells like DRG 2hr to me.

Lol, Kinda.

Anyway, If you've read this far bravo, I do have to say this idea does sound a bit ludicrous... But i've always like the idea of Becoming the Avatar, or infusing your avatars power into you to augment your combat capabilities. That being said i think its a bit unrealistic in FFXI.

It wouldn't fit right and SMN was never meant to be frontline, While i think something like this would be really really fun. I just do not see it being realistic :(

[Korpg]

I don't see this as being realistic either.

And it wouldn't help with SMN DoT, it would either keep it the same (no avatar whacking the mob anymore) or make it lower (no 6~12k BPs anymore).

[Karbuncle]

I don't see this as being realistic either.

And it wouldn't help with SMN DoT, it would either keep it the same (no avatar whacking the mob anymore) or make it lower (no 6~12k BPs anymore).

I see 6-12k Being pretty unrealistic outside Abyssea.

However you have to keep in mind, if these buffs did get applied, Take Ramuhs theoretical WS, Say if it even averaged ~3k like Evisceration in Abyssea, We as players dont have a 45 sec BP Timer, We can gear Haste/etc and get TP generally much quicker than that with proper buffs.

But yah, It would be a lot to lose. The biggest problem i have with this is it removing the "hate free" aspect of SMN DD. So again while I would have a ball doing this, I just don't see SE adding it. Plus I think I'd have more fun actually becoming the Avatar. oh well.

I feel i need to repeat this I don't hate the idea, infact i like it, I'm just realistically never seeing it happen :X

[Korpg]

I included the 6-12k because this "ability" would only be useful inside Abyssea only.

Having a SMN melee on anything outside of abyssea, except for DC or lower mobs, is...well...insane. You are basically asking SMNs go to die to stuff. I don't want SMN to turn into the old 24/7 method of killing things (throw more bodies at it!).

SMN sucks at melee gear anyway, to have a SMN use melee gear is basically asking them to be a melee mage. What is the point of a SMN if they don't summon anything or have a pet do basically most of the damage for them?

I can see some use inside Abyssea, but outside, it is a death sentence for the SMN.

[Karbuncle]

Again, Yah, I agree with basically all your points.

Like i said, I would find this an exceptionally fun toy, But its unrealistic and quite obviously it just wouldn't work on everything (or most things) unless the buff was quite significant, but then you run the risk of overpowering it.

[Vazerus]

I actually like this idea, but I just don't see it happening. I guess the only way it would is if this ability could meet and/or exceed damage done from the traditional method.... Depending on how strong the WS's are it could be quite a menacing ability. Perhaps when the "Possession" ends, a portion of hate accumulated disappears as well? Would make sense in a way, since the avatar is leaving your body.

Korpg, if this was added for some reason or another, do you think they wouldn't release gear for it specifically? Also, SMNs would have some boosted defensive stats when merged with said avatar (refering to Karbuncle's list), so they wouldn't be as squishy.

-edit- Not trying to argue really, just saying they probably would include gear and such for it. Also agree this wouldn't see too much use, depending.

[Karbuncle]

I have a picture in my head for how each wS would look.

You should draw them for me King, I can give you descriptions O_O

[kingfury]

They could adjust an Inheritance for Each avatar instead of a flat "JT" transaction. for instance

1) You Gain a stat boost related to the Avatars Element
*Example: Ifrit=STR+30, Titan=VIT+30, etc

2) You gain a strong Enspell Effect related to Avatars Element

3) A Unique buff is gained based on the Avatar

4) A Unique aura is gained based on the avatar.

5) Combat skills are enhanced.

6) Defenses are enhanced
7) Access to a Unique Staff WS based on Avatar

Sounds like a lot, But we lose our Avatars... So it seems like a fair trade off? Maybe...,

If you've read this far bravo, I do have to say this idea does sound a bit ludicrous... But i've always like the idea of Becoming the Avatar, or infusing your avatars power into you to augment your combat capabilities. That being said i think its a bit unrealistic in FFXI.

It wouldn't fit right and SMN was never meant to be frontline, While i think something like this would be really really fun. I just do not see it being realistic :(
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Brilliant! Thanks for filling in the blanks Karbuncle! :) I was in a rush to run an errand this morning and couldn't plug in all these great examples lol. You've explained it perfectly, and the concerns that arise from such abilities and status increases are valid of course.

In defense of what a SMNs role was designed to be (DD/support/tank'ish), SMNs by no means would be "losing" their Avatars while using this JA technically speaking. The Avatars are still there, just fighting from "within" the summoner's being instead of alongside them. The union of the two entities would alter their battle strategy and play style in a way that allows SMNs the joy of frontline battle instead of spectating from the sidelines.

They would still have to manage MP, and pay close attention to the battle situations as they arise in order to be most effective in terms of damage output and party support. DoT would depend on the possible potency of the new "Joint Weaponskills" that would be birthed from this pairing. Don't think of it as the Summoner is the only source of strength that would determine the potency of these new WS's, but rather imagine being able to couple a physical WS with a Blood Pact. The DoT could possibly far exceed standard Avatar Only melee(Blood Pact) since these new WS's could be dependent on TP instead.

In terms of it being "realistic" and it feeling in line with what SMN's were designed for, SMN's can currently melee alongside their Avatars during a fight and add to the damage being done. This new battle mode would simply merge the process allowing for an enhanced experience player-side that really does make sense job wise. The SMN would simple be conjuring Avatars to fight within them instead of outside them.

[Korpg]

I honestly think if SE wanted SMN to whack stuff with a staff, they would have given SMN better armor for that.

[Korpg]

Now that is just scary.

[kingfury]

I honestly think if SE wanted SMN to whack stuff with a staff, they would have given SMN better armor for that.
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Interesting you should say it like that. Technically they did, just not physical armor/equipment. If you think about it, this JA would offer numerous and unique armor-like enhancements to the SMN that would rival a WAR equipping different pieces of armor to achieve the same effect.

Karbuncle's examples of the types of stat enhancements are a great window to the types of stats that could be achieved based on the situation at hand.

[Karbuncle]

I have a picture in my head for how each wS would look.

You should draw them for me King, I can give you descriptions O_O




Why? BECAUSE I CAN D:

[kingfury]

I have a picture in my head for how each wS would look.

You should draw them for me King, I can give you descriptions O_O
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lol Describe away! :)

*Edit* Oops, you already posted'em lol. I was reading the 1st page when I came to your post about the descriptions ^^;

[Karbuncle]

ITS ABOVE YOU BRO D:

[Korpg]

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Interesting you should say it like that. Technically they did, just not physical armor/equipment. If you think about it, this JA would offer numerous and unique armor-like enhancements to the SMN that would rival a WAR equipping different pieces of armor to achieve the same effect.

Karbuncle's examples of the types of stat enhancements are a great window to the types of stats that could be achieved based on the situation at hand.

considering that very few armor that a SMN can equip has accuracy, haste, or attack on it, then yeah....

[Karbuncle]

considering that very few armor that a SMN can equip has accuracy, haste, or attack on it, then yeah....

I think SMN can get 23% haste in gear total under perfect conditions. But If this thing did happen they could introduce Armor specific for this. like Vanilla armor like

Possessors Horn
DEF:44
Possession:STR+5 DEX+5
Accuracy+5 Attack+5 Haste+6%
Set: Enhances "possession" bonus

"Possessors Robe"
DEF:50
Possession: Haste +4%
Accuracy +6 Attack+6
Double Attack +2%
Set:Enhances "Possession" Bonus

something like that ya dig :o?

Set Bonus could enhance the potency of Aura/Enspell/etc damage by a certain % per piece. like 0/2/3/4/5 (1/2/3/4/5 pieces respectively)

(again i like to reiterate I'm not all like "DO IT NAOW", But I do enjoy rampant speculation and idea'ing, I'm a sucker for it)

[Malamasala]

I've never been a fan of the opinion to merge avatars with yourself. I simply want to control them. Tell them "stun now!", though they are so brain dead they go all "Oh, stun? Now you say? Let me try and remember how to" and then they do the stunning seconds later.

Why does it take so long to ready a BP? Well, it takes that long for monster avatars, so it has to play the same for players.

So avatars absorb their own element? Nah, that is only for monster avatars. Can't give positive traits to players.

I.e. everything bad avatars have, we inherited. Everything good (absorb, en-spell, pact potency) we didn't get.



I can kind of see SE reading this thread and go. Good idea. We give SMNs all the useless avatar bonuses. Like BLM stats, but we give them nothing like 50% physical resist. Awesome idea! That way we'll have extra crippled SMNs meleeing our NMs.

[kingfury]

Why? BECAUSE I CAN D:
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Epicness! I saw similar stuff in my head when I thought of the possibilities of what the "Joint Weaponskills" would technically be, and was planning on adding images based on a few of the Avatars but you've again beat me to the punch lol! I'll add these into the OP as I flesh them out :) Thanks again Karb! /

Do you mind if I add the stats and abilities from your post (#4) to the OP directly? Right now I just have a link to your post. These WS's would also be there since the illustrations will be popped in there.

[Karbuncle]

I'm just doing this for the fun now, I doubt SE would even considering the time required to likely program something like this.

But again, I'm a big sucker for making sh*t up and these things are right up my alley :X I do so love this type of idea.

In fact, a while back I was, like most gamers, Imagining a game with a friend, Our idea of "evokers" would actually summon/become the Summon. They would be Fighters in the front lines that draw strength from Avatars/Pets and become them. So......... I love this type of idea LoL.


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Epicness! I saw similar stuff in my head when I thought of the possibilities of what the "Joint Weaponskills" would technically be, and was planning on adding images based on a few of the Avatars but you've again beat me to the punch lol! I'll add these into the OP as I flesh them out :) Thanks again Karb! /

Do you mind if I add the stats and abilities from your post (#4) to the OP directly? Right now I just have a link to your post. These WS's would also be there since the illustrations will be popped in there.

By all means ^^. Deep down part of me enjoys this kind of creating

[kingfury]

I've never been a fan of the opinion to merge avatars with yourself. I simply want to control them. Tell them "stun now!", though they are so brain dead they go all "Oh, stun? Now you say? Let me try and remember how to" and then they do the stunning seconds later.

Why does it take so long to ready a BP? Well, it takes that long for monster avatars, so it has to play the same for players.

So avatars absorb their own element? Nah, that is only for monster avatars. Can't give positive traits to players.

I.e. everything bad avatars have, we inherited. Everything good (absorb, en-spell, pact potency) we didn't get.

I can kind of see SE reading this thread and go. Good idea. We give SMNs all the useless avatar bonuses. Like BLM stats, but we give them nothing like 50% physical resist. Awesome idea! That way we'll have extra crippled SMNs meleeing our NMs.
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Well, technically speaking, you would be "controlling them" under the effect of this JA. You would visibly see a transparent outline of the Avatar on top of your character while running around, and see them attack as you do. When you WS, you would see the Avatar WS along with yours. The same with casting spells. Hence the term "Joint WS" & "Joint Spells". So long as you have MP, it would feel/look/appear as if the SMN has become the Avatar.

[Karbuncle]

In theory, You could allow the SMN to access the Avatars BP:wards during that time too, Since its a big part of the job as well. However, It could be a static 1min Ability (not effect by BP:Delay)

[kingfury]

I'm just doing this for the fun now, I doubt SE would even considering the time required to likely program something like this.

But again, I'm a big sucker for making sh*t up and these things are right up my alley :X I do so love this type of idea.

In fact, a while back I was, like most gamers, Imagining a game with a friend, Our idea of "evokers" would actually summon/become the Summon. They would be Fighters in the front lines that draw strength from Avatars/Pets and become them. So......... I love this type of idea LoL.

By all means ^^. Deep down part of me enjoys this kind of creating
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Awesome, Thanks! :) Plugging it in to the OP now.

It really makes perfect sense in my opinion. Who says that an Experienced Summoner after years of training couldn't direct their powerful Avatars to such a suitable location as that of the SMNs own body? Just because it's never been done before, doesn't mean it can't be achieved for super high level SMNs that are Masters of their craft.

After all, we've seen that Demons in FFXI can wield this very technique in the WotG missions(Bastok Path).

[Sasaraixx]

A) Avatars are all BLMs. Anything "inherited" would be BLM traits, so it wouldn't help with the "melee" SMN at all.

I thought that Fenrir was an exception?

[Karbuncle]

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Awesome, Thanks! :) Plugging it in to the OP now.

It really makes perfect sense in my opinion. Who says that an Experienced Summoner after years of training couldn't direct their powerful Avatars to such a suitable location as that of the SMNs own body? Just because it's never been done before, doesn't mean it can't be achieved for super high level SMNs that are Masters of their craft.

Also, When you said that the Avatar outline would be around the SMN, I thought to add some animations to each WS for the Avatars animation.

[kingfury]

Also, When you said that the Avatar outline would be around the SMN, I thought to add some animations to each WS for the Avatars animation.
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Yep, you're in my head now ^^

Visibly, the "Joint" part of the WSs and Spells would show the Avatar's special moves and casting animations paired along with the new WSs and spells of the SMN's.

[Khiinroye]

[Karbuncle]

[kingfury]

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^^ Again, it could've been done the wrong way, or he was just not aligned appropriately with his craft to succeed. :) Maybe he was too low level eh! Perhaps he was only functioning at a lowly lvl 75, while a Lvl 95~ SMN would make easy work of this fusion based on their far superior summoning magic skills.

*Edit That, or what Karb said lol ^^;

[Miiyo]

Agni's Staff +3
Fire Affinity: Magic Acc+5
Fire Affinity: Magic Damage+10
Fire Affinity: Physical Damage+10
Fire Affinity: Casting time -20%
Hidden fire Effect to physcial attacks (to justify Fire Affinity: physical dmg +10)
Possession: Ifrit

[Malamasala]

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Well, technically speaking, you would be "controlling them" under the effect of this JA. You would visibly see a transparent outline of the Avatar on top of your character while running around, and see them attack as you do. When you WS, you would see the Avatar WS along with yours. The same with casting spells. Hence the term "Joint WS" & "Joint Spells". So long as you have MP, it would feel/look/appear as if the SMN has become the Avatar.

Well, I think that would be almost acceptable.

[Panthera]

I'm not terribly keen on this idea, but DUDE! do drawings of all the avatars possessing the tarutaru! The Fenrir one rocks, and i really liked the close-up on the face of the taru. I'd love to see more! + cool sig btw.

[Leonlionheart]

WE HAVE SPOILERS!?

[kingfury]

WE HAVE SPOILERS!?



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Lol these are funny to have in Quotes though ><;

This JA would simply add another level of functionality to SMN that could be turned on and off should the SMN choose to do so. It's allowing another option other than "just spectating", so SMNs would still have the core choice to stand on the outskirts of the battle while their Avatars pummel the mob. Options are king if the end results justifies the means, and in this case, the option to be possessed by powerful Avatars and couple together the two strengths could push out new damage numbers and gameplay never before seen from SMNs... and it would again look cool as hell. ^^

[kingfury]

Agni's Staff +3
Fire Affinity: Magic Acc+5
Fire Affinity: Magic Damage+10
Fire Affinity: Physical Damage+10
Fire Affinity: Casting time -20%
Hidden fire Effect to physcial attacks (to justify Fire Affinity: physical dmg +10)
Possession: Ifrit
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@_@ Yeah... Cool stuff like this! :)

[kingfury]

I'm not terribly keen on this idea, but DUDE! do drawings of all the avatars possessing the tarutaru! The Fenrir one rocks, and i really liked the close-up on the face of the taru. I'd love to see more! + cool sig btw.
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/bow lol Thanks for art feedback /

Thanks to Karbuncle coming up with all those great examples of the possible WSs SMNs might use under the effect of Possession, you'll be seeing just that! I'll make sure to throw in some close ups of the taru's face for ya though :)

[Dallas]

SE said they want SMN to stay back and not fight.

Illiteracy is a contageous disease. Let's see the quote again with the 3 words implying melee range not highlighted. That was funny stuff.

We have enough liars in here, just change the quote to say "way the hell out of range" instead of ... well, we all know what it says.

[Leonlionheart]

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Lol these are funny to have in Quotes though ><;

This JA would simply add another level of functionality to SMN that could be turned on and off should the SMN choose to do so. It's allowing another option other than "just spectating", so SMNs would still have the core choice to stand on the outskirts of the battle while their Avatars pummel the mob. Options are king if the end results justifies the means, and in this case, the option to be possessed by powerful Avatars and couple together the two strengths could push out new damage numbers and gameplay never before seen from SMNs... and it would again look cool as hell. ^^

Well then there should be a reverse side too, that allows you to cast magic according to what Avatar you have out.

I'd rather be a caster on a job with TONS of mage gear.

[Leonlionheart]

Illiteracy is a contageous disease. Let's see the quote again with the 3 words implying melee range not highlighted. That was funny stuff.

We have enough liars in here, just change the quote to say "way the hell out of range" instead of ... well, we all know what it says.


Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies

Let us make it more clear!


Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies

MORE CLEAR


Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies

Let's go in to a little bit more depth

http://www.wordreference.com/thesaurus/sit%20back "ignore, relax, keep one's hands off, neglect, side-line, not care, do nothing, hibernate, idle, lie dormant, go still, not budge, not stir, rest, sit out, vegetate, wait and see, watch and wait, wait, apathy, lay back, uncaring, not bother

. _ .

[Korpg]

Illiteracy is a contageous disease. Let's see the quote again with the 3 words implying melee range not highlighted. That was funny stuff.

We have enough liars in here, just change the quote to say "way the hell out of range" instead of ... well, we all know what it says.

You mean the quote stating what Square Enix is thinking about what a summoner does?

[Korpg]

http://www.wordreference.com/thesaurus/sit%20back "ignore, relax, keep one's hands off, neglect, side-line, not care, do nothing, hibernate, idle, lie dormant, go still, not budge, not stir, rest, sit out, vegetate, wait and see, watch and wait, wait, apathy, lay back, uncaring, not bother


Underlined: Best definition ever!

[Dallas]

LOL, I told you exactly what you would do and you did it anyway. Dance for me, minions!

[Razushu]

LOL, I told you exactly what you would do and you did it anyway. Dance for me, minions!

You still got that bullet proof sense of selfworth, eh? I almost feel bad mocking you.

[Dallas]

You saw it, Raz. I said that we would get the quote with selective highlighting AGAIN, and we got exactly that. You know what is by your side? Your hands. Your avatar is that fuzzy dot off in the horizon.

[Razushu]

You saw it, Raz. I said that we would get the quote with selective highlighting AGAIN, and we got exactly that. You know what is by your side? Your hands. Your avatar is that fuzzy dot off in the horizon.

Dallas if you were able to read a complete sentence you would see

A mystic who can conjure avatars tofight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies.

that even if melee was implied, it's stated that backline is SMN's position.

[Leonlionheart]

Illiteracy is a contageous disease. Let's see the quote again with the 3 words implying melee range not highlighted. That was funny stuff.

We have enough liars in here, just change the quote to say "way the hell out of range" instead of ... well, we all know what it says.

guys these sentences say that you will go post what i want you to.

Dallas has been turned to defense mode.

Guys if we attack enough we can bring him down!

Edit: I be feed'n a troll. But it brings me delight, like feeding the birds on a sunday afternoon~

[Korpg]

Signatures are there for feeding trolls.

Like mine.

[Leonlionheart]

looks like it was done by kingfury, his art is usually pretty great.

I do like doing it in the rear though

[Korpg]

looks like it was done by kingfury, his art is usually pretty great.

I do like doing it in the rear though

Yeah, I specifically asked him to do a signature for me, he was very kind into doing one

[Leonlionheart]

Yeah, I specifically asked him to do a signature for me, he was very kind into doing one

He's a nice guy, though I don't always agree with his ideas.

Maybe I should ask for one with Dallas's head under my ukon?

[kingfury]

Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies.
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Imagine if it read like this:

Mystics who conjure avatars to fight either by their sides or from within, where if alongside the SMN can then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies; or from within so the SMN can switch gears while merged with their Avatar and address the ongoing show in person while still delivering devastating blows and spells coupled with aiding allies and managing their MP reserves. :D

[Korpg]

He's a nice guy, though I don't always agree with his ideas.

Maybe I should ask for one with Dallas's head under my ukon?

Mods would probably delete it.

[kingfury]

He's a nice guy, though I don't always agree with his ideas.

Maybe I should ask for one with Dallas's head under my ukon?
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Thanks for the compliment LLH /bow lol

Umm... Uh... due to the forum guidelines and the square enix yadda', yadda', blah, blah, blah, yack'adee-shmack'adee, unit code: #463 on page FF11 of the Hitchhiker's guide to the Universe... I'm not sure if I could fulfill that signature request... But...

Take out Dallas' head, and I think I could swing it lol

[Leonlionheart]

----------
Thanks for the compliment LLH /bow lol

Umm... Uh... due to the forum guidelines and the square enix yadda', yadda', blah, blah, blah, yack'adee-shmack'adee, unit code: #463 on page FF11 of the Hitchhiker's guide to the Universe... I'm not sure if I could fulfill that signature request... But...

Take out Dallas' head, and I think I could swing it lol

xD lol that would be really cool :O I'm hume, sporting Zelus Tiara and 4/5 AF3+2, um the hair is 4A i believe, the reddish longish one. The rest is up to you sir! I'm sure you'll do a great job, if you decide to do it after all xD

[Razushu]

----------
Thanks for the compliment LLH /bow lol

Umm... Uh... due to the forum guidelines and the square enix yadda', yadda', blah, blah, blah, yack'adee-shmack'adee, unit code: #463 on page FF11 of the Hitchhiker's guide to the Universe... I'm not sure if I could fulfill that signature request... But...

Take out Dallas' head, and I think I could swing it lol

Make me one and I promise I'll follow you around and {Like!} all your posts.XD

[Leonlionheart]

Well don't over burden him!

Though he is a really talented guy, I can see why his sig's would be high in demand.

[kingfury]

Lucky I have all that gear so no need for you to post links ^^

I'll see what comes to mind :) /

[Razushu]

Well don't over burden him!

Though he is a really talented guy, I can see why his sig's would be high in demand.

I was joking, I wouldn't actually expect him to do one for me lol.

But you're right he does do great work.

[Leonlionheart]

I was joking, I wouldn't actually expect him to do one for me lol.

But you're right he does do great work.

Thinking about it in terms of business, if everyone sported one of his sig's, it would give his posts publicity!

Then SE would be like "Woah this guy has the playerbase behind him, we should look at his posts seriously!"

[kingfury]

Make me one and I promise I'll follow you around and {Like!} all your posts.XD
------------
^^; lol No Mandatory thread following would be necessary Raz. Just post a description and some image links of your character and set the image oven to 350º and wait to see what emerges! :)

[kingfury]

Thinking about it in terms of business, if everyone sported one of his sig's, it would give his posts publicity!

Then SE would be like "Woah this guy has the playerbase behind him, we should look at his posts seriously!"
--------------
Well, I wouldn't go that far lol, but at least there would be lots of colorful Sigs dancing around the forum ^^

[Razushu]

------------
^^; lol No Mandatory thread following would be necessary Raz. Just post a description and some image links of your character and set the image oven to 350º and wait to see what emerges! :)

Sweet, thanks I'll take some screenshots when I log in and post them. Do you need anything in particular in relation to the pics?

[kingfury]

Character face type, and the gear you'd like to see on your character helps.

[kingfury]

I'm not terribly keen on this idea, but DUDE! do drawings of all the avatars possessing the tarutaru! The Fenrir one rocks, and i really liked the close-up on the face of the taru. I'd love to see more! + cool sig btw.
-----------------
Added to the OP :)

•Possible Avatar Possession characteristics (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/SMNPossession-AvatarChart.jpg)

[Alhanelem]

Now that is just scary.(Yes I know it's way back)
I'm offended by your signature. "Real Summoners" play the job however they dang well please. Real Summoners also don't all wear wind staves and only use garuda.

Real Summoners are those who know how to utilize every square inch of what their job can do (even though no matter what they do, they still don't get respected for anything other than niche purposes or anything that is made beatable by Perfect Defense).

Stop kidding yourself into thinking because a couple of people were involved in a 2000 post thread about meleeing on SMN, that they don't know how to do anything else with the job.

-----

Anyway, The OP idea is somewhat interesting in theory, but people are too set in their minds to realize that things can be adjusted and tweaked. Things like "Avatars are all BLMs" in particular- They could change the avatar's base jobs in accordance with their style (Mostly going by appearance, Ifrit would be a WAR, garuda a THF, etc)

It would certainly fun to "be" the avatar, sort of like in Final Fantasy XIII. But it would be to radical of a departure from the job's design as a pet job.

[Leonlionheart]

(Yes I know it's way back)
I'm offended by your signature. "Real Summoners" play the job however they dang well please. Real Summoners also don't all wear wind staves and only use garuda.

Real Summoners are those who know how to utilize every square inch of what their job can do (even though no matter what they do, they still don't get respected for anything other than niche purposes or anything that is made beatable by Perfect Defense).

Stop kidding yourself into thinking because a couple of people were involved in a 2000 post thread about meleeing on SMN, that they don't know how to do anything else with the job.

-----

Anyway, The OP idea is somewhat interesting in theory, but people are too set in their minds to realize that things can be adjusted and tweaked. Things like "Avatars are all BLMs" in particular- They could change the avatar's base jobs in accordance with their style (Mostly going by appearance, Ifrit would be a WAR, garuda a THF, etc)

It would certainly fun to "be" the avatar, sort of like in Final Fantasy XIII. But it would be to radical of a departure from the job's design as a pet job.

Well, if you're using a blood bact rage... why wouldn't you use the one that deals the most damage?

Melee is not utilizing every square inch of SMN, its effectively hurting the party, rather than staying back.

Just because there is a picture of garuda in his sig, doesn't mean that's the only avatar he uses lol

[Karbuncle]

Garuda was always the most consistently powerful, But I've seen ifrit and Ramuh peak higher numbers. Leviathan/Titan are good for consistent numbers with little variances.

I'm not missing your point though!

[Tagrineth]

Yeah, good idea, let's empower SMN Melee.

While we're at it, give my WAR some White Magic. I want my WAR to be the main healer!

And I'd love for my Bard to be able to cast Black Magic. It's so boring just standing around singing songs! I should be able to nuke for at least 2000 damage in Abyssea, since bard can't really do damage any other way.

Oh and please please give my Paladin the ability to Charm, that would let me tank while my pet DDs! How cool would that be?

Oh oh and my BLM needs a few Defense Bonus traits. I mean I can gain so much hate, I should be able to tank too!

[Alhanelem]

Melee is not utilizing every square inch of SMN, its effectively hurting the party, rather than staying back.It's not hurting anybody. And you're taking my statement completely out of context. I didn't say "melee" or <insert role here>. And Beaing up front does not damage the party if they still get their buffs and you don't die. Which you don't if you are aware of your environment and what you're fighting. (I knew you'd troll me to start this up again- but I"m not going to take it any further than this, so get your entertainment somewhere else. You totally missed the point of the statement which had nothing specifically to do with melee at all.)

Real Summoners know how to do anything that the job is capable of doing, and know when to use what. That's what I'm saying. Real Summoners also play solo as well as parties and Real Summoners understand both the job's flexibilities and strengths as well as its limitations.

Of course, that's just what I think. Neither I nor Korpg are in any position to declare for the community what a "Real Summoner" really is. I, you, and everyone else should judge this for themselves.




While we're at it, give my WAR some White Magic. I want my WAR to be the main healer!Spoken by one who most likely treats SMN as a gimp WHM with no other capabilities. Your slippery slope and straw man arguments have no weight at all in logic. Note the description of the summon spells: "Summons <avatar to FIGHT BY YOUR SIDE." At the very least, the avatar should be fighting. and I couldnt think of a more creative idea for summoner than letting the summoner himself be imbued with a particular avatar's powers. Command carbuncle and be a better healer, command diabolos and command dark magic, command ifrit or garuda and be a fighter, etc.

Seriously, there's more to this guy's suggestion than just melee, and like all effects, it would only be a temporary status change.

This thread and others like it exist because summoner has a reputaiton for power in the FF universe, and for most intents and purposes, summoner's -general- power is sorely lacking, not to say that there isn't anything it does well or is recognized for, but no job should be so shallow in strength or purpose.

[Leonlionheart]

Damnit SMN melee IS HURTING YOUR PARTY.

TP feed is a serious issue when you're fighting NMs that might actually kill you. Sobek does NOT count.

Plus when a SMN gets hurt it's just more stress on the WHM's MP pool and recast timers.

In exp, or on Sobek, or other completely weak NMs have a blast. No one cares if you go hit Sirrush, literally no one. Unless your useless TP feed is preventing Red from being able to proc.

[kingfury]

Damnit SMN melee IS HURTING YOUR PARTY.

TP feed is a serious issue when you're fighting NMs that might actually kill you. Sobek does NOT count.

Plus when a SMN gets hurt it's just more stress on the WHM's MP pool and recast timers.

In exp, or on Sobek, or other completely weak NMs have a blast. No one cares if you go hit Sirrush, literally no one. Unless your useless TP feed is preventing Red from being able to proc.
--------------
I agreed with your breakdown in the "Watch paint dry" thread when you said that weak melee doesn't really do much for the fight LLH, but this JA would elevate a SMN's melee and DoT to that of Moderate to High depending on how things could be coded and designed. If a SMN could use new powerful weapon skills at an increased rate that was either on par with or slightly stronger than their current BP rage numbers, and they could take hits due to them being paired with their Avatars, they would certainly gain their place up front with the other DDs.

They wouldn't just be an "Auto-attacking melee mage" at that point, they would be a true-to-life DD, capable of sustaining themselves and others while doing so to boot. They would do so all the while staying true to their job function as a SMN, just up front with the rest of the DDs.

Remember, they would technically "be the Avatar" so your fears of a "too weak mage" swinging a staff for low numbers wouldn't be directed at a SMN that is using this JA. The specific melee damage numbers would see proportionate increase based on the two entities' attacks being merged, not to mention the possible additional elemental effect damage per swing on top of that. Now if a BLM were up front whacking the monster and trying to nuke, that's where your frustrations would be directed! :) (no offense to the melee BLMs out there... I'm sure there's some somewhere)

[Malamasala]

Damnit SMN melee IS HURTING YOUR PARTY.

TP feed is a serious issue when you're fighting NMs that might actually kill you. Sobek does NOT count.

Plus when a SMN gets hurt it's just more stress on the WHM's MP pool and recast timers.

In exp, or on Sobek, or other completely weak NMs have a blast. No one cares if you go hit Sirrush, literally no one. Unless your useless TP feed is preventing Red from being able to proc.

You know you are wrong, I hope. I have both SMN and DNC leveled. My DNC just hundred fists with weak dagger pokes, none of them stronger than my staff pokes. If melee SMN is bad, then melee DNC is the worst thing you could ever find. The comes melee NIN and melee THF, since they also have low damage single handed weapons.

Fact is, people don't worry about DNC, NIN, THFs feeding TP. So worrying about SMN is just something you'd do because you have no idea how to play the game and you just make up theories that are incorrect and make you look like a fool. Only reason 50 people aren't correcting you, is because it is so common to have bad knowledge of the game and think just as wrong as you.

PS. My SMN tends to have more HP than a taru DRG... so I guess taru shouldn't be melee jobs period, if you worry someone will die from AOE damage. (Except MNKs, I'm sure taru MNKs have a few HP)

[Leonlionheart]

You know you are wrong, I hope. I have both SMN and DNC leveled. My DNC just hundred fists with weak dagger pokes, none of them stronger than my staff pokes. If melee SMN is bad, then melee DNC is the worst thing you could ever find. The comes melee NIN and melee THF, since they also have low damage single handed weapons.

Fact is, people don't worry about DNC, NIN, THFs feeding TP. So worrying about SMN is just something you'd do because you have no idea how to play the game and you just make up theories that are incorrect and make you look like a fool. Only reason 50 people aren't correcting you, is because it is so common to have bad knowledge of the game and think just as wrong as you.

PS. My SMN tends to have more HP than a taru DRG... so I guess taru shouldn't be melee jobs period, if you worry someone will die from AOE damage. (Except MNKs, I'm sure taru MNKs have a few HP)

People don't worry about DNC or NIN feeding TP because of native Subtle Blow trait, and THF DNC and NIN get INSANE amounts in gear. The most Subtle Blow SMN can get is 12 iirc, and that's sacrificing some vital attack/accuracy slots, which SMN is desperate for.

In terms to this thread, it's all about letting SMN melee, which if SMN could actually manage to pull of a decent hit rate, and decent pDIF ratings, along with the other DD stats (DA TA Crits etc) then maybe SMN melee would have a place.

However as it stands now, it's not worth it at all.

Edit: As for Subtle Blow, BLU actually makes a point of gearing for it in certain cases, especially if you melee as BLU/RDM. It's a big deal, and you would know this if you actually played at a high level (Azdaja, Pantokrator, Raja, Rani, Apademak, etc.). I, along with my Cure, PDT, Physical Potency, Charged Whisker, and DD sets, have a Subtle Blow set on BLU to alleviate the stress on the tank, the healer, and most of all the other DDs around me. Causing a mob to use an AoE that results in dead DD = less overall DPS for the party. SMN is about hateless, MP-Sponge-less, and spike damage, while being able to give support.

[Razushu]

Character face type, and the gear you'd like to see on your character helps.

Taru M 6B

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z369/Razushu/Raz110723121614a.jpg

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z369/Razushu/Raz110723121624a.jpg

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z369/Razushu/Raz110723121633a.jpg

Gear is just Caller's set and a Fay Crozier.

[Tagrineth]

Spoken by one who most likely treats SMN as a gimp WHM with no other capabilities. Your slippery slope and straw man arguments have no weight at all in logic. Note the description of the summon spells: "Summons <avatar to FIGHT BY YOUR SIDE." At the very least, the avatar should be fighting. and I couldnt think of a more creative idea for summoner than letting the summoner himself be imbued with a particular avatar's powers. Command carbuncle and be a better healer, command diabolos and command dark magic, command ifrit or garuda and be a fighter, etc.

Slippery slope and strawman? No, I was just straight up making fun of the idea. :)

People have this strange fantasy of taking X job they think they should like but don't because it doesn't fit their playstyle,

and wanting it to play like Y job that they for some fucking reason don't want to actually GO CHANGE JOBS and play INSTEAD.

Show me FF precedent for a Summoner doing anything remotely along the lines of physical damage and maybe I'll stop thinking you're a complete failure for pushing this agenda. Seriously. Go change jobs if you want to melee. SMN isn't built for it. NOTHING you can currently do will change that fact. Even the Empyrean staff is a joke. Wishing SE would buff SMN melee is like wishing SE would buff SCH or BLM melee. Or WAR nuking. Or MNK's Treasure Hunter.


This thread and others like it exist because summoner has a reputaiton for power in the FF universe, and for most intents and purposes, summoner's -general- power is sorely lacking, not to say that there isn't anything it does well or is recognized for, but no job should be so shallow in strength or purpose.

Yes, SMN has a reputation for power in the FF universe. Through the Avatar alone. Yuna was pathetic. Rydia was physically frail and on occasion unbelievably hard to keep alive in battle. FFV's Summoner should always be in the back rank, and if it picks attack, you're DOING IT WRONG (sidenote: most of this game's job archetypes are a mixture of FF3 and FF5's jobs, derp). Even in FF9 - who were the two Summoners? Dagger and Eiko. Yeah. They certainly hit like trucks with their... oh, right.


You know you are wrong, I hope. I have both SMN and DNC leveled. My DNC just hundred fists with weak dagger pokes, none of them stronger than my staff pokes. If melee SMN is bad, then melee DNC is the worst thing you could ever find. The comes melee NIN and melee THF, since they also have low damage single handed weapons.

I hope you're joking. I really, really hope you're joking.

[Karbuncle]

Their arguments aside (I dont agree with all points being tossed out)..

You're basically saying "They shouldn't do it because they haven't done it before"? Again i don't agree with all of Mala's and Alna's points but at the same time your arguments are just as bland.

You're saying "This is stupid because it hasn't happened in the past!". You ignore that games constantly evolve, if SE decided "Summoners should be able to truly imbue themselves with celestial powers" they could do it right there, and to F**k with old Final Fantasy titles and what they did.

That my only disagreement here, is being close-minded for the sake of pigeon holding jobs based on their previous incarnations in a series. Past games are irrelevant when it comes to the future. especially for gaming industries.

I'm not saying SMN should/Would take this direction, Just that its a flaw to believe nothing will ever change because it hasnt yet.

[Tagrineth]

Their arguments aside (I dont agree with all points being tossed out)..

You're basically saying "They shouldn't do it because they haven't done it before"? Again i don't agree with all of Mala's and Alna's points but at the same time your arguments are just as bland.

You're saying "This is stupid because it hasn't happened in the past!". You ignore that games constantly evolve, if SE decided "Summoners should be able to truly imbue themselves with celestial powers" they could do it right there, and to F**k with old Final Fantasy titles and what they did.

That my only disagreement here, is being close-minded for the sake of pigeon holding jobs based on their previous incarnations in a series. Past games are irrelevant when it comes to the future. especially for gaming industries.

I'm not saying SMN should/Would take this direction, Just that its a flaw to believe nothing will ever change because it hasnt yet.

Well. it's not JUST that.

My main basis really is that in 10 years SMN has never had any kind of buff to its meleeing capabilities.

I pointed all the past-history stuff out in response to what Alhanelem said, because it's a significant reinforcement as to WHY summoner can't realistically melee worth a damn in FFXI.

[Karbuncle]

Well. it's not JUST that.

My main basis really is that in 10 years SMN has never had any kind of buff to its meleeing capabilities.

I pointed all the past-history stuff out in response to what Alhanelem said, because it's a significant reinforcement as to WHY summoner can't realistically melee worth a damn in FFXI.

Yah, I don't feel like SE is really a company who is going to break from the normal of their past. They seem to like keeping things relatively the same for jobs through all of their games...

But things could change. i highly doubt they will. But theres always the small chance :D

Again I think this kind of thing would be a blast to toy with if it was implemented, But i just dont see SE taking the job that direction either. In a way we agree.

[Panthera]

•Possible Avatar Possession characteristics

The carby one was perfect! I like the Garuda, Shiva and Ramuh ones, too!

[Sargent]

Going back to the JA in question. Bad idea. SE won't go within a million miles of it.
I'm a melee SMN to some extent myself, but you missed the plot by a mile. The whole idea of SMN is to use your avatars, not being "Possessed" by them. SE are already addressing the issue where SMN is too much of the "watch paint dry" job (even though it really isn't)

A new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.
If this is implimented, problem solved. MP is not an issue unless they make the amount of additional MP used something stupid like double BP cost. SE are not going to impliment anything that will a) create an "unbalance" in jobs, b) take massive resources into adjusting one job by a tiny bit, c) put strains on the hardware limitations of the PS2/PSV (remember, we have 10 levels of Job Adjustments, Spells, Avatars, Weapon Skills, Abilities, new Mob TP moves to put on the PS2 HDD). What your whole post is suggesting is that they turn Summoner into Necromancer. While I do want a "Dual Mode" for SMN, SE are already working on something like it.
Instead of suggesting bad ideas like this, you might want to actually unlock the job and play it for yourself so you can really see whats wrong with it and what isn't wrong with it.

[Karbuncle]

How is Infusing yourself with an Avatars power anything remotely close to Summoning Undead? (on your "It'd turn SMN into Necromancer" thing >_>)

Your other arguments seem intelligent though drowned up by obvious arrogance and hatred I can let that go (you should too! no fun being mad all the time). Still I don't think "PS2 limitations" is a good excuse either. We've gone up 15 levels, going up 9 more, adding dozens of new JA and JT, they have plenty of room left for PS2.

The only valid excuse you have is that it wouldn't really help the job as a whole, which i can concur with 100%.

While we agree, It wouldn't help SMN a lot. because its not the way the devs want to take the job. And while i would enjoy something like this as a FUN thing, It would not help SMN i the end and I don't think it would be a positive step for the job. In fact i think it might impact them negatively because one of their redeeming qualities (hateless, disposable DD) would be lost

[Reaux]

I like the whole idea. It would give SMN something else in it's arsenal and the possession does not even have to be limited to melee, they could be RA for some of these possessions too. Avatars like Ifrit and Fenrir are obvious for melee, but Carby and Ramuh would be sweet as ranged dmg of some type with a magic missile sort of attack.

I would like to see something LIKE this, maybe not identical to description, put in if only to see my characters appearance change. If anyone has played Guild Wars this reminds me of the Dervish ability to summon Avatar aspects.

[Sargent]

The reasoning behind the idea, I can understand. And like I said, SE are working on a solution to said idea. SE's vision of the job is effectively the same as Summoner in previous FF games, which on the most part, the playerbase agrees with. The summoner calls fourth avatars to assist his/herself in battle etc. The summoner at no point (exception: Terra in FF6, but she was born an Esper) becomes the Avatar/Eidolon/Esper themselves. They at no point incorperate any of the stats of any of their summoned pets. And like Summoners in previous FF games, Summoners can melee (any job can melee), but at no point do they become equal or greater melees then the aformentioned melee jobs (in newer FFs, see Garnet's melee vs Zidanes/Steiners, or Yuna's vs Tidus/Auron for example).

I understand the concept, I at no point mentioned summoning undead, mearly only saw the connection between the proposed JA and the Necromancer job in other MMOs. It sounds almost identical. As much as I do, on occasion melee as SMN when the sitation is feasible for me to do so, as a melee SMN, this JA will not help at all. SEs reaction to this is going to be "if you want to nuke, change to BLM, if you want to melee, change to WAR".

I would like to see SMN get access to higher tier attacks and pacts, and become a more active job. At this point, we simply do not know what Blood Pacts are being implimented, besides the assumption that Ramuh is getting a new Blood Pact: Ward at 92. As it is, if Summoner wants to nuke, we can already deal as much damage as a non-magian staff blm can with Heavenly Strike. If a Summoner wants to DD, Predator Claws still does very high numbers, both in and outside of Abyssea. In terms of Summoner actually dealing damage numbers, the job needs no adjustment. The speed in which we do damage is the only issue, which I mentioned SE have picked up on and are looking into adjusting. The summoner themselves are squishy, but since the majority of the time we are away from the mob, if we are soloing, we simply run further and put enough distance between the mob to safely resummon/siphon without getting hit, and if we do get hit, our support job will mitigate the damage. If we are meleeing, we either use a tank, or simply make the avatars our tanks. If this is a solo situation, the summoner should prepare themselves for when their avatar dies and apply the nessesary buffs. The job simply does not need an ability like this, and it is not within the job's nature to have an ability like this.

[Korpg]

(Yes I know it's way back)
I'm offended by your signature. "Real Summoners" play the job however they dang well please. Real Summoners also don't all wear wind staves and only use garuda.

Real Summoners are those who know how to utilize every square inch of what their job can do (even though no matter what they do, they still don't get respected for anything other than niche purposes or anything that is made beatable by Perfect Defense).

Stop kidding yourself into thinking because a couple of people were involved in a 2000 post thread about meleeing on SMN, that they don't know how to do anything else with the job.



Geeze, you can't take a joke, can you?

As stated in another thread, I didn't specify which staff to include on my signature (like it mattered anyway), but I'm glad that kingfury decided on a green staff to go with the green mage aspect (also, having green armor and a green background with a green avatar, kindof makes sense to use a green staff, don't you think?)

[Korpg]

--------------
I agreed with your breakdown in the "Watch paint dry" thread when you said that weak melee doesn't really do much for the fight LLH, but this JA would elevate a SMN's melee and DoT to that of Moderate to High depending on how things could be coded and designed. If a SMN could use new powerful weapon skills at an increased rate that was either on par with or slightly stronger than their current BP rage numbers, and they could take hits due to them being paired with their Avatars, they would certainly gain their place up front with the other DDs.

They wouldn't just be an "Auto-attacking melee mage" at that point, they would be a true-to-life DD, capable of sustaining themselves and others while doing so to boot. They would do so all the while staying true to their job function as a SMN, just up front with the rest of the DDs.

Remember, they would technically "be the Avatar" so your fears of a "too weak mage" swinging a staff for low numbers wouldn't be directed at a SMN that is using this JA. The specific melee damage numbers would see proportionate increase based on the two entities' attacks being merged, not to mention the possible additional elemental effect damage per swing on top of that. Now if a BLM were up front whacking the monster and trying to nuke, that's where your frustrations would be directed! :) (no offense to the melee BLMs out there... I'm sure there's some somewhere)

You would still lose the avatar, which personally, I think that 100 (avatar melee hit) + 50 (SMN melee hit) is better than 75 (imbued SMN hit, because we all know that SE isn't going to give avatar damage to the SMN).

[kingfury]

Going back to the JA in question. Bad idea. SE won't go within a million miles of it.
I'm a melee SMN to some extent myself, but you missed the plot by a mile. The whole idea of SMN is to use your avatars, not being "Possessed" by them. SE are already addressing the issue where SMN is too much of the "watch paint dry" job (even though it really isn't)

If this is implimented, problem solved. MP is not an issue unless they make the amount of additional MP used something stupid like double BP cost. SE are not going to impliment anything that will a) create an "unbalance" in jobs, b) take massive resources into adjusting one job by a tiny bit, c) put strains on the hardware limitations of the PS2/PSV (remember, we have 10 levels of Job Adjustments, Spells, Avatars, Weapon Skills, Abilities, new Mob TP moves to put on the PS2 HDD). What your whole post is suggesting is that they turn Summoner into Necromancer. While I do want a "Dual Mode" for SMN, SE are already working on something like it.
Instead of suggesting bad ideas like this, you might want to actually unlock the job and play it for yourself so you can really see whats wrong with it and what isn't wrong with it.


How is Infusing yourself with an Avatars power anything remotely close to Summoning Undead? (on your "It'd turn SMN into Necromancer" thing >_>)

Your other arguments seem intelligent though drowned up by obvious arrogance and hatred I can let that go (you should too! no fun being mad all the time). Still I don't think "PS2 limitations" is a good excuse either. We've gone up 15 levels, going up 9 more, adding dozens of new JA and JT, they have plenty of room left for PS2.

The only valid excuse you have is that it wouldn't really help the job as a whole, which i can concur with 100%.

While we agree, It wouldn't help SMN a lot. because its not the way the devs want to take the job. And while i would enjoy something like this as a FUN thing, It would not help SMN i the end and I don't think it would be a positive step for the job. In fact i think it might impact them negatively because one of their redeeming qualities (hateless, disposable DD) would be lost
------------------
To clear things up a bit in regards to the proposed JA, SMNs would still be "using their Avatars" while this JA is active. The players would still see the Avatars on top of their character and would still control the Avatars new Joint actions and spells. They would indeed be sacrificing their traditional safety of the spectator seat they're usually in to enjoy this new play style, but that's a fair trade off given the possible newfound potential to deal out nice damage numbers firsthand. It would be a trade off similar to using Berserk on WAR to deal higher melee damage, yet different due to the fact depending on which Avatar is possessed at the time(like Leviathan, or Carbuncle), the SMN could do both DD and self sustain themselves while using this JA.

However, they still would have the ability to use powerful spells from outside the direct battle range while this JA was in effect, just more control over new "Joint spells" birthed from the union of the two entities. SMN is in essence by design a hybrid job, so a player doesn't have to "change to BLM to nuke" or "change to War if you want to melee" since their Avatars encompass many sides of those play styles and more(support, healing, tanking, etc.). Though this JA's intensions may sound foreign for the job at 1st glance, it is at it's base a SMN summoning an Avatar to help them battle foes. The only difference is the location of which they summon the Avatar to do the fighting.

I've lvled SMN on my dual boxed Taru and understand the job just fine, though my biggest reason for leaving the job in the Mog house is that pet jobs are rather boring for me personally. Apparently, it's rather boring for a good number of folks as well based on some of the threads posted here. Which brings us to what this proposed JA is really all about. It's not "just about SMNs melee", though it would indeed empower them to do so, but rather it's about breathing some very new and exciting gameplay into the job that still is based on the core elements of the job to a degree.

I wouldn't say this JA had the potential to "hurt" the SMN job unless it wasn't designed and implemented properly. I do believe it would be fair to implement some risk for the SMN that chooses to use this JA, similar with what all frontline jobs have, but given the potential to master the new gameplay options that would be created from it, it could truly benefit the job by expanding it's potential beyond what is the status quo. The issue of dispersing of accumulated hate while using this JA could be solved by allowing the SMN to greatly reduced hate once the possessed Avatar is released. Allowing them the chance to retreat to the back lines of the battle and gather themselves while reverting back to "summon Avatar --» sit back and manage" mode should they need to. It all comes down to creative solutions that still balance out the effects.

[Alhanelem]

Geeze, you can't take a joke, can you?

As stated in another thread, I didn't specify which staff to include on my signature (like it mattered anyway), but I'm glad that kingfury decided on a green staff to go with the green mage aspect (also, having green armor and a green background with a green avatar, kindof makes sense to use a green staff, don't you think?)
I'd accept that explanation if not for the additional text below. "Real" players in general should do whatever they find works for them and who they're playing with. By calling yourself "Real" you're implying other people are not (I can think of *one* that isn't, but still :p)

Anyway..... I sort of like the concept behind the idea in this thread. If nothing else, its a creative/different idea that I haven't seen come up before. I think some credit is due for that, regardless of what you think of it. It would certainly be an interesting twist though.

[Covenant]

@king fury you could go SMN/DRK and absorb all stats now I think. With some DRK magic gear you could probably absorb at least +15 on most stats?

And No...avatars and summoner are meant to be separate beings not to mention possession has negative connotations to it.

[Karbuncle]

Snippit

And I don't want you to get the wrong Idea.

I truly love this idea, Its just i try to remind myself It probably wont be added so its a little less depressing when it doesn't D:

[kingfury]

And I don't want you to get the wrong Idea.

I truly love this idea, Its just i try to remind myself It probably wont be added so its a little less depressing when it doesn't D:
-------------
^^ I know you do Karb, and it's cool to play devils advocate towards proposed concepts. It helps when folks shoot holes in new ideas, so new solutions can be offered.

Truly, this JA alone with all of it's possible effects and new WSs would be enough work to constitute an Expansion pack all by itself lol. I'm aware that currently, the possible response would be somewhere in the "Although this idea is interesting, we have no current plans to develop SMN in this direction", but it doesn't hurt to offer up the idea should they actually like the concept :) You just never know.

[kingfury]

@king fury you could go SMN/DRK and absorb all stats now I think. With some DRK magic gear you could probably absorb at least +15 on most stats?

And No...avatars and summoner are meant to be separate beings not to mention possession has negative connotations to it.
----------------
Yeah the /sub job realm would offer some insane combos via this JA lol. I think SMN/SAM would see some real use should the new Joint WS's be potent enough to constitute it. Sekkokani would be all kinds of crazy with stuff like Eclipse Strike -» Eclipse Strike = Darkness skillchain(Boosh!!). Not to mention, if the SMN has enough fast cast gear at their disposal, they could possibly fire off their own Magic burst to boot!

The Avatar and the SMN would still be separate beings/entities ^^ they would just be joined together in a unique way. True, the concept of "being possessed" traditionally has negative concepts surrounding it, but that doesn't mean it's outlook can't be changed with some care taken to it's usage. Technically speaking, conjuring spirits to do anything for the living, traditionally (depending on which culture we're talking about) has all kinds of negative connotations around it :)

We have WHMs raising the dead all over the place, DRKs that eat the souls of their foes, and spirit sharing going on with DRG and their wyverns lol! I don't think SE would have any problems with the concept of possession personally ^^

[Airget]

I had a similar idea way back rather then "posession" it was avatar armor. Basically the restriction was you could only set 1 avatar to act as an armor and it would be activated with an ability. Basically each avatar could act under a certain motif. Titan's armor would be a tank like ability, and Ifrit would be a DD main focus. Though of course just saying that the idea itself is very broken since it would give the SMN the ability to play any role even if the side effect would be the inability to summon while in said form.

Though if I had one suggestion about Possession, it would be to "needing to set an avatar for posession(limiting it to one avatar)", "perp cost while in said form" perhaps if possible "have WS require both TP and MP to use". There was another idea but it slipped my mind.

The idea itself could work though it would require a lot of resources to make each avatar work in a certain way unless they only allow the base avatars + fenrir to be used and ignore caith sith, diabolos, atomos and the 2hr ones lol. At least then it would be a balance of one avatar for each element.

Though I will say the base idea is interesting, basically have each one set in place.

Hm, looking at this idea it does sort of remind me of an idea I had about making elementals more useful in the same context of posessing a target. Basically a Summoner could summon the elemental to a target player.

While the target is possessed they are given a base stat/attribute change and the SMN is given a list of "spell rituats" they can use on the player. Based on the elemental they could do rituatls that enhance attributes, resist against an elementa, grant access to certain spells etc. However with each ritual cast it would increase the perp cost of keeping the ritual itself active. In terms of keeping a check on it they could use the same process as level sync in which if it detects the target that is possessed is no long in the party it will disengage the effect in 10 seconds.

While this idea does sound interesting I don't think that avatars really have an issue of being useful it would prolly be more logical to tweak it in a way in which elemental pacts can be used as a means of a supportive tool to enhance player's abilities.

[kingfury]

You would still lose the avatar, which personally, I think that 100 (avatar melee hit) + 50 (SMN melee hit) is better than 75 (imbued SMN hit, because we all know that SE isn't going to give avatar damage to the SMN).
-------------
Nah, you wouldn't "lose" the Avatar since it's still there fighting along with the SMN. Lets say that the merge did combine melee attacks to equate to 75-80 melee damage(with some moderate crits) plus a nice additional elemental damage effect tacked onto it (which would most likely push it above the 100 Avatar-only damage) and use the examples of the SMN getting some nice stat bonuses like suggested by Karb's post.

Possible Enhancements from using Possession with Ifrit:
• Ifrit - Double attack +10%
• Ifrit - Attack +10%
• You gain a strong Enspell Effect related to Avatars Element (In this case Fire Dmg)
• You Gain a stat boost related to the Avatars Element: (Ifrit=STR+30)
• Combat skills are enhanced (Summoning Magic Skill/25 = Amount of Critical Hit rate gained. (i.E A SMN with 350 Summoning Magic skill would gain 14% Critical hit rate)
• Defenses are enhanced
• And access to a possibly potent new staff WS: Flaming Smash - Deliver an attack that deals Triple damage and burns target. Duration of burn varies with TP.
*Burn is 30hp/tic. 30/60/90 second duration 100/200/300%
Now depending on if the SMN has some nice Haste/Perp.Cost/Refresh gear(or Atmas) going on, this type of list would make a deadly contender out of just about any job lol. That's not factoring in the /sub job abilities either, since /SAM would open up self skillchains with the staff Joint WS "Flaming Smash" which would boost dmg in a very nice way. Like I said, they would definitely be allowed to enter the front lines of the fight if they could bring these types of enhancements to the table. :)

[Karbuncle]

i think he's also forgetting the strong Enspell Effect you would gain! An additional ~50 dmg a hit!

Oh man the RDMs would complain.

[Malamasala]

Nah, RDMs don't consider en-spell damage to be damage. It would be worse if we suggested DA.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

A) Avatars are all BLMs.Who says they're blms?

[hiko]

instead of a lol ja that buff the smn mele capacity why not add ja that buff the summon?
I think a "empathy" like JA that would copy the buff active on the SMN to the pet, a ja that lower stats from SMN but add em to the pet...

[kingfury]

instead of a lol ja that buff the smn mele capacity why not add ja that buff the summon?
I think a "empathy" like JA that would copy the buff active on the SMN to the pet, a ja that lower stats from SMN but add em to the pet...
----------------
Well, technically, this "lol JA" would accomplish exactly what you're suggesting. Since both Avatar and SMN would be joined during this JA, any and all buffs would directly benefit both entities simultaneously, so no new JA would be needed to share those benefits at that point.

That, and I'll say again, this JA is also a proposal to enhance a SMN gameplay and enjoyment while performing it's role in both party and solo situations, not just to solely enhance melee performance. It would open a new play style option for SMNs that help solve the mundaneness that plagues the job even at high levels by alternating the SMNs from the back of the fight to the front while still allowing them to perform their jobs.

[Tagrineth]

instead of a lol ja that buff the smn mele capacity why not add ja that buff the summon?
I think a "empathy" like JA that would copy the buff active on the SMN to the pet, a ja that lower stats from SMN but add em to the pet...

This would make about 6.42x10^99 times more sense than all this nonsense about possession and trying to make SMN a melee.

[Alhanelem]

And No...avatars and summoner are meant to be separate beings not to mention possession has negative connotations to it. Negative connotations? Summoning magic is already a forbidden art in the game lore. Posession doesn't have to be negative, either.

Frankly I think people just see the phrase "Melee SMN" and ignore the entire OP's post. His idea is one of the more creative and thoughful ones I've seen on this forum and he deserves some credit for that. It probably wouldn't happen, no, but new ideas should be enocuraged.

[Leonlionheart]

What I honestly think about this idea:

Bad to get rid of the avatars completely. Now if it did something else, like reduce the cooldown of BP to x2, to compensate for how powerful the SMN has become...

Still don't like SMN melee but if the public wants it that badly, it's SE's choice to weigh the options.

[kingfury]

What I honestly think about this idea:

Bad to get rid of the avatars completely. Now if it did something else, like reduce the cooldown of BP to x2, to compensate for how powerful the SMN has become...

Still don't like SMN melee but if the public wants it that badly, it's SE's choice to weigh the options.
--------------
The Avatar would still be on your screen visibly overlaid on top of the SMN ^^, they would just look similar to how players look while under the effect of invisible.

It could work that way in terms of the BP cooldown.

[kingfury]

Negative connotations? Summoning magic is already a forbidden art in the game lore. Posession doesn't have to be negative, either.

Frankly I think people just see the phrase "Melee SMN" and ignore the entire OP's post. His idea is one of the more creative and thoughful ones I've seen on this forum and he deserves some credit for that. It probably wouldn't happen, no, but new ideas should be enocuraged.
------------
/bow Thanks for the compliments Alhanelem /

And yeah, the phrase "Melee SMN" seems to strike a nerve lol. Hopefully I'll be able to address any concerns that might arise due to missing the core points of the actual purpose of this thread which is suggesting a new play style and energy into the job itself.

[Leonlionheart]

I think there would be too much loss if the Avatar stopped being able to BP at all, but if the timer was affected rather than the avatar completely gone...

[kingfury]

The trade off from the BP in this mode would be the SMN gaining the use of the new and powerful "Joint WSs" that would either be on par with BP or slightly stronger in the long run since they would be dependent on TP to use vs waiting on BP timers.

lol they would still be there on screen LLH ><; Check the Fenrir example here. When the SMN swings, the Avatar would swing. When the SMN cast a spell, the Avatar would be shown casting a spell as well. You wouldn't "lose the Avatar" at all during this JA, it's just using them differently.

•Possession example (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/SMNPossession-1.jpg)

[Karbuncle]

I think there would be too much loss if the Avatar stopped being able to BP at all, but if the timer was affected rather than the avatar completely gone...

Well, Maybe we need to emphasis the boost that this infusion would give a bit further. This way it will dispel some concerns?

Firstly, An idea where you could still access BP:Wards was tossed bout! Also, It wouldn't be too far fetched to think you could add about ~10% Damage across the board. I.E you do 10% more damage with everything for the duration of possession.

Secondly, Consider this.

You infuse yourself with Ramuh, Your staff hits usually do ~100 a swing (low ending on most things..), now they do 110 + 50~ or more enspell damage per hit. And you now have access to a 3-hit Staff-Crit WS.

fTP mods similar to Raging Rush (slightly higher though), Mods INT:60% MND:60% (our best assets)

Also consider there might be Armor sets specifically designed for this type of thing, "Possession garbs". That directly enhance a Summoner under Possession, Up to but not limited too capping haste, large boosts to acc/atk/str/dex, Critical hit rate increases, dbl atk/trpl atk/etc.

In a way the essence of the Avatar is still there powering you. Joint WS's would be powerful, and consider you could get Haste/marches like regular DD your DPS will far outweigh the lost of your Avatars and your WS numbers will outweigh BP:Rages (not always in raw damage, but also because of Frequency!)

This is all theoretical of course. But just some examples of the WS power

[Dallas]

And yeah, the phrase "Melee SMN" seems to strike a nerve lol.

BG worked real hard to make everyone hate the phrase. The "idiots-that-BG" wanted SMN to accept the term "cure whores" instead.

I like to think of "melee SMN" as "SMN," and the do-nothing-for-45-seconds crowd as "gimp SMN." "Cure whores" still works for the rest.


Who says they're blms?

The people who haven't read Kegsay's research, the only research on avatar melee abilities.

[Leonlionheart]

BG worked real hard to make everyone hate the phrase. The "idiots-that-BG" wanted SMN to accept the term "cure whores" instead.

I like to think of "melee SMN" as "SMN," and the do-nothing-for-45-seconds crowd as "gimp SMN." "Cure whores" still works for the rest.

I've never even been to BG. Still think you're worth half a penny.

[Korpg]

The whole special WS idea is nice, but unless they do 10k plus damage with ODD aftermath, even without Emp staff, then this still won't work for melee SMN. Plus, you will have a lot of angry melees demanding their own special sets of WSs, like Nyzul Isle-type WS.


BG worked real hard to make everyone hate the phrase. The "idiots-that-BG" wanted SMN to accept the term "cure whores" instead.

I like to think of "melee SMN" as "SMN," and the do-nothing-for-45-seconds crowd as "gimp SMN." "Cure whores" still works for the rest.

You got that mixed up. It should be "melee SMN" as "gimp DD" and everyone else as "SMN." The so-called "cure whores" are more helpful to the party than a "melee SMN" can ever be. But thanks for making another thread into a "bash Dallas" thread.


The people who haven't read Kegsay's research, the only research on avatar melee abilities.

Lets see here. All elemental avatars have Tier 2 and 4 spells. All elemental avatars have elemental merited BPs that do elemental damage. All celestial avatars have light/dark element BPs. The magical BPs are dependent on the avatars Magic Attack and Magic Accuracy. Yup, they must be MNKs then!

[Dallas]

Korpg, thank you for again thinking you deserve to be heard by me. You are wrong.

[Tagrineth]

Seriously... if you want to personally run up and thwack the mob, you have TWELVE JOBS to choose from that do that. Without getting laughed at.

Otherwise, I might just make my thread requesting that my BLM be given better healing magic so I can main heal on BLM too. Why should I be forced to switch to RDM or SCH or even WHM to heal better!

[Dallas]

Seriously... if you want to personally run up and thwack the mob, you have TWELVE JOBS to choose from that do that. Without getting laughed at.

I swing a 98 base damage staff for up to 900 damage on a normal hit in Abyssea (550 outside). I get back 1500-2000 MP with my WS. No one but a bunch of trolls on a forum are laughing.

[Leonlionheart]

I swing a 98 base damage staff for up to 900 damage on a normal hit in Abyssea (550 outside). I get back 1500-2000 MP with my WS. No one but a bunch of trolls on a forum are laughing.

DUDE THAT DAMAGE IS HUGE

not like I swing a 131 base damage GA for up to 1200 damage on a normal hit in abyssea (2200 crit, 4.5k double ODD crit) like, what, 900~2000 outside? I deal 9k with my WS.

hi guys.

[Tagrineth]

I swing a 98 base damage staff for up to 900 damage on a normal hit in Abyssea (550 outside). I get back 1500-2000 MP with my WS. No one but a bunch of trolls on a forum are laughing.

I like how you talk like ODD procs are your normal swings. And you disregard the rate at which you can swing for that much damage. As well as how often you're going to miss, especially outside abyssea. And that you act like that damage will happen on anything with more than ~500 defense (being generous here...). And that you completely gloss over the fact that the twelve jobs I mentioned previously instead of "getting back MP" with their WS, "get 2000+ extra damage" even OUTSIDE abyssea. And that's with normal weapons.

oh, and if you're using that MP, you're slowing down your own attacks (significantly!), so getting back MP with the WS seems SO RELEVANT.

[Dallas]

You do know how to divide by two, right? Get to work.

[Leonlionheart]

I don't know what you're trying to say.

[Leonlionheart]

Oh! You know what? I never thought about casting slowing down hits!

I like you Tagrineth.

[Dallas]

Oh! You know what? I never thought about casting slowing down hits!

I like you Tagrineth.

Even the illiterate guy knows what I use my MP on. Hint: /SAM doesn't have any spells...

[Leonlionheart]

Even the illiterate guy knows what I use my MP on. Hint: /SAM doesn't have any spells...

Idiots.

Who do you play with?

Who lets you do this?

[Dallas]

Have you figured out where the MP goes yet?

[Tagrineth]

Avatar perpetuation? Just that? Because anything worth our concern in this matter (lol, SMNs meleeing EXP mobs is no biggie), the Avatar's neutral melee damage isn't anything to write home about either.

And Blood Pacts incur JA delay. So try again.

[Karbuncle]

Okay, We understand SMN Melee isn't an accepted norm and people are phobic of anything related to change and have some massive hatred of people attempting to have their job play a separate role than what is known and accepted as a norm.

Can we move on now? Your opinions have been stated and your views are known, now you're simply insulting each other back and forth.

Be the better man and Drop it. In your own words SE will never add this, So why is there so much harm in 3-4 people discussing it? Even we (Well I) admit its mostly unrealistic for FFXI, its not completely ludicrous for the series (hint: FF3 you basically fuse with your avatar, Ride the ShivaCYCLE!), But for FFXI i agree it will likely never happen.

Seriously, You people *** up every single thread even remotely related to SMN going back and forth with Dallas about him or SMN melee.

can't even one of you act like a man and move on and stop bickering like angry children?

[Leonlionheart]

seigan and hasso have 50% casting time recast increase...

what the f*** is going on

[Leonlionheart]

Okay, We understand SMN Melee isn't an accepted norm and people are phobic of anything related to change and have some massive hatred of people attempting to have their job play a separate role than what is known and accepted as a norm.

Can we move on now? Your opinions have been stated and your views are known, now you're simply insulting each other back and forth.

Be the better man and Drop it. In your own words SE will never add this, So why is there so much harm in 3-4 people discussing it? Even we (Well I) admit its mostly unrealistic for FFXI, its not completely ludicrous for the series (hint: FF3 you basically fuse with your avatar, Ride the ShivaCYCLE!), But for FFXI i agree it will likely never happen.

Seriously, You people *** up every single thread even remotely related to SMN going back and forth with Dallas about him or SMN melee.

can't even one of you act like a man and move on and stop bickering like angry children?

You don't have to read it...

I'm having my fun . _ .

[Karbuncle]

You don't have to read it...

I'm having my fun . _ .

I know, But i read it in every thread and some decent discussion (Even unrealistic, i admit!) is lost because if you guys keep going back and forth a GM will eventually lock the thread :\

[Leonlionheart]

That's a valid point. Where'd my 100pg smn melee basher go?

[Dallas]

JA delay is 1 second, like all JA. I don't have a lot of those compared to most melee.

Yes, perpetuation. 23% in Haste gear isn't cheap. Avatar's melee damage is icing on the cake. Putting the avatar away has the following negative effects:

1) loss in at least 10 seconds per minute just casting the avatar (thanks for reminding me... 15 seconds with Hasso)
2) loss in time aligning the avatar for buffs (a meleeing avatar is in range)
3) loss of hate generated by BPs (very important solo and backup tanking)
4) loss of pettp gained, lower cures, lower merit pacts
5) loss of buffs on avatar (only a few, but they help)
6) loss of damage from melee

There are a LOT of reasons to keep the avatar out. I have unlimited MP, so I keep the avatar out.

[Karbuncle]

its 2 seconds (or 120 delay)

[Dallas]

Pfft, the delay doesn't really matter anyway. I use Hasso/Hastega/Meditate outside of the melee cycle, which leaves the Rages and 507hp Winds.

[Tagrineth]

Okay, We understand SMN Melee isn't an accepted norm and people are phobic of anything related to change and have some massive hatred of people attempting to have their job play a separate role than what is known and accepted as a norm.

Can we move on now? Your opinions have been stated and your views are known, now you're simply insulting each other back and forth.

Be the better man and Drop it. In your own words SE will never add this, So why is there so much harm in 3-4 people discussing it? Even we (Well I) admit its mostly unrealistic for FFXI, its not completely ludicrous for the series (hint: FF3 you basically fuse with your avatar, Ride the ShivaCYCLE!), But for FFXI i agree it will likely never happen.

Seriously, You people *** up every single thread even remotely related to SMN going back and forth with Dallas about him or SMN melee.

can't even one of you act like a man and move on and stop bickering like angry children?

Oh ok. Note to self: make pipedream thread about how WAR needs Treasure Hunter because it doesn't already do enough as-is.

It's just hilarious how butt-hurt "summoners" seem to be about how their job "sucks" because it doesn't do the things they want it to do, when there are so many other jobs that DO what they *** want to do. But no, it HAS to be Summoner that does it. Why? *** if I know. But hey, it's okay for Summoners to pipedream about doing something they can't and won't be able to... but as soon as it's any other job, it's STFU and QQ from everyone instead. Waah I'm a Summoner but the job sucks! /thread

[Karbuncle]

Oh ok. Note to self: make pipedream thread about how WAR needs Treasure Hunter because it doesn't already do enough as-is.

Why not? Discuss whatever you want. Doesn't make the idea any less absurd. If you bother to read this thread you would see I admit fully the idea is absurd for the FFXI universe. You don't have to shit up a thread with your hate fill babble simply because you disagree with it.



It's just hilarious how butt-hurt "summoners" seem to be about how their job "sucks" because it doesn't do the things they want it to do, when there are so many other jobs that DO what they *** want to do. But no, it HAS to be Summoner that does it. Why? *** if I know. But hey, it's okay for Summoners to pipedream about doing something they can't and won't be able to... but as soon as it's any other job, it's STFU and QQ from everyone instead. Waah I'm a Summoner but the job sucks! /thread

You seem entirely more butthurt than anyone else in this thread. I asked you to calm down, and your response is some rage-induced hate spewing about us being butthurt and blatant sarcasm. Hypocrisy thy name is Tagrineth

No one here (Well, Me specifically) Is asking for some Magical SMN Melee buff. If you actually took the time to read it rather than acting like a profound Self-appointed Knower-of-all in every one of your posts so far you could see that.

I admit the idea does not fit, But thats not even the point. the point is the idea was good in itself, it doesn't fit in FFXI but i enjoy it and I'm running with it. Maybe King or Dallas feels this is valid but i can see it doesnt fit SE's vision of the job.

Your attitude is the main problem here and your childish behavior. Nothing else in on trial. We get you don't agree. My point is you don't have to act like an ass to state your opinion.

[Dallas]

Tag, the pro-melee SMN aren't the ones complaining about the job. The "watch paint dry" SMN are complaining. Please understand that the SMN divide is much deeper than swinging the staff.

The more MP recovery you have, the less reason you have to hate SMN. I think the job is already balanced. I'm looking forward to the tilt.

[Tagrineth]

You seem entirely more butthurt than anyone else in this thread. I asked you to calm down, and your response is some rage-induced hate spewing about us being butthurt and blatant sarcasm. Hypocrisy thy name is Tagrineth

I might be coming off moreso that way than intended, as a note. There's no real "rage" there, more general irritation at how so many Summoners... I mean, look at the other damn thread. "Job vision: watch paint dry". Really? Do some summoners REALLY feel like playing the job is like watching paint dry...?

[Karbuncle]

I might be coming off moreso that way than intended, as a note. There's no real "rage" there, more general irritation at how so many Summoners... I mean, look at the other damn thread. "Job vision: watch paint dry". Really? Do some summoners REALLY feel like playing the job is like watching paint dry...?

It seems to be the same few people. (Namely Dallas and like 2 others who really think Melee is wonderfu).

I myself stay in touch with Reality however and admit the shortcommings of the job and that SE has never changed a job "Vision" in the past.

WAR was always a DD
PLD was always a tank
WHM was always the healer
THF will always be uselesss outside of TH

etc etc. So i doubt SMN will go from

"Watching their pets while picking their noses"

to

"Meaningful Melee".

If it was a different game this would be a really good idea. It might fit into something like the Diablo II universe, But its just FFXI leaves little room for this type of thing because SE and the community does not view SMN as a melee and it would take a lot to change that view. So much to downright impossible.

[Tagrineth]

Tag, the pro-melee SMN aren't the ones complaining about the job. The "watch paint dry" SMN are complaining. Please understand that the SMN divide is much deeper than swinging the staff.

The more MP recovery you have, the less reason you have to hate SMN. I think the job is already balanced. I'm looking forward to the tilt.

If SMN ever gets any kind of fancy tilt, it won't be Staff-related.

[Dallas]

If SMN ever gets any kind of fancy tilt, it won't be Staff-related.

Myrkr = unlimited MP. Are you thinking the tilt won't be mp-related?

[Leonlionheart]

Myrkr = unlimited MP. Are you thinking the tilt won't be mp-related?

I thought you were trying to prove your melee swings were worth a rat's tail?

Your WS might be unlimited MP, but so is /RDM. I've never, ever, ever had to rest on SMN at 90. Anywhere.

[Dallas]

I thought you were trying to prove your melee swings were worth a rat's tail?

Your WS might be unlimited MP, but so is /RDM. I've never, ever, ever had to rest on SMN at 90. Anywhere.

I'm not proving anything. I'm being compared to a SMN/RDM who does nothing but maybe casts Cure 3 every once and a while. It's no contest, which is why I don't allow you to compete.

If you think /RDM mp recovery is that good, replace all your perp gear with gear that enhances your pet's damage:

Staff: Soulscourge
Head: Haste 5%
Neck: Regain or Attack (yeah, try full-timing sac torque lol)
Body: Crit: 4%
Hands: Accuracy, 2 choices
Waste: Attack
Legs: Accuracy
Feet: Attack

Until someone manages this setup, all SMN have MP issues.

[Alhanelem]

What I honestly think about this idea:

Bad to get rid of the avatars completely. Now if it did something else, like reduce the cooldown of BP to x2, to compensate for how powerful the SMN has become...

Still don't like SMN melee but if the public wants it that badly, it's SE's choice to weigh the options.
I looked at the idea as a modal ability, where you can either summon the avatar as a pet as normal, or if this ability is active, you take control of and become the avatar itself.

Either way, I feel summoner needs something to help it live up to its reputation of power. I don't mean OVERpowered, but right now, in terms of inflicting any kind of damage, SMN is not very capable, no matter how you try to do it. It was pointed out that the master can substantially outdamage its pet (The total is still abysmal, of course, but still). This is something that should be rectified in one way or another. Most people, I'm sure, would like to see the avatars be stronger, or some kind of modal ability like avatar's favor that "channels the avatar's power towards special attacks" or something, perhaps disabling Wards to give a damage boost and faster recast to Rages or something. I don't know, just throwing something out there.

SE's implied ability of paying more MP for faster blood pacts seems like a start, but it would have to be a substantial BP delay reduction for it to be worth having at all. The OP's idea I find interesting, but is at odds with most people's perception of what the job is "supposed" to be. You may like summoner as it is for the things it does that are special, e.g. perfect defense, but I would prefer the job be known for a bit more than that. Why settle for good enough when you can always have more?

[Leonlionheart]

I'm not proving anything. I'm being compared to a SMN/RDM who does nothing but maybe casts Cure 3 every once and a while. It's no contest, which is why I don't allow you to compete.

If you think /RDM mp recovery is that good, replace all your perp gear with gear that enhances your pet's damage:

Staff: Soulscourge
Head: Haste 5%
Neck: Regain or Attack (yeah, try full-timing sac torque lol)
Body: Crit: 4%
Hands: Accuracy, 2 choices
Waste: Attack
Legs: Accuracy
Feet: Attack

Until someone manages this setup, all SMN have MP issues.

I'd macro it in to blood pacts, like I macro avatar MAB into blood pacts. I wouldn't full time it. It's not helping enough to full time anyway, except for the head slot (which I could easily keep +mp by losing the 1 refresh I actually have on head slot lol). Avatar physical attacks are incredibly weak in comparison to real DD physical attacks.

[Leonlionheart]

I looked at the idea as a modal ability, where you can either summon the avatar as a pet as normal, or if this ability is active, you take control of and become the avatar itself.

Either way, I feel summoner needs something to help it live up to its reputation of power. I don't mean OVERpowered, but right now, in terms of inflicting any kind of damage, SMN is not very capable, no matter how you try to do it. It was pointed out that the master can substantially outdamage its pet (The total is still abysmal, of course, but still). This is something that should be rectified in one way or another. Most people, I'm sure, would like to see the avatars be stronger, or some kind of modal ability like avatar's favor that "channels the avatar's power towards special attacks" or something, perhaps disabling Wards to give a damage boost and faster recast to Rages or something. I don't know, just throwing something out there.

SE's implied ability of paying more MP for faster blood pacts seems like a start, but it would have to be a substantial BP delay reduction for it to be worth having at all. The OP's idea I find interesting, but is at odds with most people's perception of what the job is "supposed" to be. You may like summoner as it is for the things it does that are special, e.g. perfect defense, but I would prefer the job be known for a bit more than that. Why settle for good enough when you can always have more?

Honestly I don't understand SE's tip-toe approach to SMN. From 75-90 SMN has gotten what, some niche blood pacts and crap tons of perp- gear? A set bonus that barely ever works, and shows lesser numbers than a BLM using a similar set bonus.

Why do they think the job is so powerful that they can't give Avatars at least the power of a PUP automaton? I don't think anyone would get pissed if Shiva would just start casting Blizzard IV by herself sometime instead of wasting a Blood pact: Rage on it. I mean using spells form avatars was never very good in the first place.

Why can't Avatar's get Haste? And why can't BP be affected by fast cast gear or haste?

Black Magic: Haste affects recasts
White Magic: Haste affects recasts
Physical Weapon Skills: Haste affects WS frequency

SMN: Haste does nothing
RNG: Haste does nothing
COR: Haste does nothing

Considering it's the strongest stat in the game, every job that DOESNT have it gets completely sidelined when comparing them to other jobs that are affected by haste.

Does SE not realize how powerful haste is, that not giving it to certain jobs completely undermines them?

The only fix, other than having it affect said jobs/abilities, is to scale damage to make up for the lack of haste. (Or in RNG and COR's case, make a totally new stat particularly for Ranged Attacks.) SMN get's -bp in gear, but let's face it. 15 is 25% of 60, same as 25% haste in gear. However when you add the spells, Haste, March, or the abilities Hasso, Desperate Blows, and Haste Samba, it significantly increases the power (exponentially even) of damage.

80% of 60(BP timer) is 48, meaning for a SMN to even compare to a DD at capped Haste the recast on Blood Pacts should be Twelve seconds. (Even still, the maximum time for a Ukon WAR to WS is 10 seconds at capped haste, assuming 6hit build, with DA, TA, and retaliation it gets lowered to as little as 2 seconds (WS after delay).

Finally, SMN should not need to Melee to compare to other jobs. Sure, it can melee, but it shouldn't be potent enough that the Avatar loses out on being SMN's most powerful aspect just because some special snowflake thinks he can do damage with his staff.

[Malamasala]

Avatar physical attacks are incredibly weak in comparison to real DD physical attacks.

Not really. Or well, it hasn't always been that way. I once noticed vs Cerberus that my avatar was hitting for 35 and the DRK was hitting for 40. Then the BRD came along and DRK shoot up to 100-120 per swing. Avatars on HNM are pretty much on par with melee jobs, before buffs.

And that is really the problem. Game perfectly balanced without BRDs and CORs, then 110% in favor of melee when you apply these jobs to parties. We'd have a lot less issues if BRD and COR was never added, but it is a pretty harsh thing to say.

[Malamasala]

Honestly I don't understand SE's tip-toe approach to SMN. From 75-90 SMN has gotten what, some niche blood pacts and crap tons of perp- gear? A set bonus that barely ever works, and shows lesser numbers than a BLM using a similar set bonus.

Why do they think the job is so powerful that they can't give Avatars at least the power of a PUP automaton? I don't think anyone would get pissed if Shiva would just start casting Blizzard IV by herself sometime instead of wasting a Blood pact: Rage on it. I mean using spells form avatars was never very good in the first place.

Why can't Avatar's get Haste? And why can't BP be affected by fast cast gear or haste?

Black Magic: Haste affects recasts
White Magic: Haste affects recasts
Physical Weapon Skills: Haste affects WS frequency

SMN: Haste does nothing
RNG: Haste does nothing
COR: Haste does nothing

Considering it's the strongest stat in the game, every job that DOESNT have it gets completely sidelined when comparing them to other jobs that are affected by haste.

Does SE not realize how powerful haste is, that not giving it to certain jobs completely undermines them?

The only fix, other than having it affect said jobs/abilities, is to scale damage to make up for the lack of haste. (Or in RNG and COR's case, make a totally new stat particularly for Ranged Attacks.) SMN get's -bp in gear, but let's face it. 15 is 25% of 60, same as 25% haste in gear. However when you add the spells, Haste, March, or the abilities Hasso, Desperate Blows, and Haste Samba, it significantly increases the power (exponentially even) of damage.

80% of 60(BP timer) is 48, meaning for a SMN to even compare to a DD at capped Haste the recast on Blood Pacts should be Twelve seconds. (Even still, the maximum time for a Ukon WAR to WS is 10 seconds at capped haste, assuming 6hit build, with DA, TA, and retaliation it gets lowered to as little as 2 seconds (WS after delay).

Finally, SMN should not need to Melee to compare to other jobs. Sure, it can melee, but it shouldn't be potent enough that the Avatar loses out on being SMN's most powerful aspect just because some special snowflake thinks he can do damage with his staff.

I don't think you've ever made this much sense before. Glad to see that we are quite a lot on the same page, apart from SMN melee.

[Leonlionheart]

Not really. Or well, it hasn't always been that way. I once noticed vs Cerberus that my avatar was hitting for 35 and the DRK was hitting for 40. Then the BRD came along and DRK shoot up to 100-120 per swing. Avatars on HNM are pretty much on par with melee jobs, before buffs.

And that is really the problem. Game perfectly balanced without BRDs and CORs, then 110% in favor of melee when you apply these jobs to parties. We'd have a lot less issues if BRD and COR was never added, but it is a pretty harsh thing to say.

pDIF is pretty much the deciding factor on high level NMs. That and accuracy.

The fact that avatars in no way get buffs to either of this without using a specific avatar for long periods of time is proof.

Avatar's Favor is trying to push for long-time usage of a single avatar; why force it into gimping damage? I personally don't use it cause 1) My SMN is never in the melee party, and Diabolos sucks for actual damage (and so does Shiva if you're going to eat the -20 MAB and have Shiva float around the BLM), and 2) I use magical blood pacts if I'm on SMN, which take a HUGE hit in potency. The physical variant is there, as in there is attack- because of Avatar's Favor, but it's harder to see. (I would use it, however, if Ramuh got a Crit WS!)

I wouldn't care if Avatar's Favor INCREASED perp cost. I just don't like losing out on damage, on a job that is gasping for it in the first place.

[Korpg]

Korpg, thank you for again thinking you deserve to be heard by me. You are wrong.

Yet...you responded to me....hmm.

Hey guys! I'm going to ignore Dallas by responding to him now!

[Korpg]

I swing a 98 base damage staff for up to 900 damage on a normal hit in Abyssea (550 outside). I get back 1500-2000 MP with my WS. No one but a bunch of trolls on a forum are laughing.

I swing a 124 Base damage Great Axe for up to 1400 on a normal hit in Abyssea (1100 outside). I can do up to 8k damage with my WS. And none of that damage is ODD either. When I finish my Ukon, I can swing up to 4500 on a normal hit in Abyssea (don't know outside yet). I can do 11k WSs normally, possibly getting higher than that. I already have a 5 hit/25% haste build for my Ukon for TP (thanks Leon for your help). And I'm not thinking that I can do something that my job doesn't allow me to (as in, you know, main healing, or nuking, or stuff like that).

[Korpg]

JA delay is 1 second, like all JA. I don't have a lot of those compared to most melee.

Yes, perpetuation. 23% in Haste gear isn't cheap. Avatar's melee damage is icing on the cake. Putting the avatar away has the following negative effects:

1) loss in at least 10 seconds per minute just casting the avatar (thanks for reminding me... 15 seconds with Hasso)
2) loss in time aligning the avatar for buffs (a meleeing avatar is in range)
3) loss of hate generated by BPs (very important solo and backup tanking)
4) loss of pettp gained, lower cures, lower merit pacts
5) loss of buffs on avatar (only a few, but they help)
6) loss of damage from melee

There are a LOT of reasons to keep the avatar out. I have unlimited MP, so I keep the avatar out.

Number 3 is proof positive that Dallas doesn't use SMN, at least in a party situation. If his avatar is tanking, or even backup tanking, then either his tanks REALLY suck or he is full of...you know.

[Korpg]

I'm not proving anything. I'm being compared to a SMN/RDM who does nothing but maybe casts Cure 3 every once and a while. It's no contest, which is why I don't allow you to compete.

If you think /RDM mp recovery is that good, replace all your perp gear with gear that enhances your pet's damage:

Staff: Soulscourge
Head: Haste 5%
Neck: Regain or Attack (yeah, try full-timing sac torque lol)
Body: Crit: 4%
Hands: Accuracy, 2 choices
Waste: Attack
Legs: Accuracy
Feet: Attack

Until someone manages this setup, all SMN have MP issues.

That SMN/RDM is helping out the party a lot more than swinging a staff to keep an avatar out does.

Bolded: Hence, the reason why you need to swing a staff. Love to see you keep your avatar out outside of abyssea....oh wait.

Also: Gear, man, you really have no clue what a SMN is. Any/everyone who is a SMN can name off the gear you just put on there by name. Why can't you?

Plus: You mentioned that you solo stuff. What exactly have you soloed? Bubbly Bernie doesn't count.

Edit: 4 posts in a row! Sorry about that guys!

[Malamasala]

And I'm not thinking that I can do something that my job doesn't allow me to (as in, you know, main healing, or nuking, or stuff like that).


In most cases it is not about what you can do, but what you want to do. Take PLD for example that indeed CAN main heal, but it will be rare to see them do so. BLU can also main heal... you won't see that happen often.

Almost all jobs pick one role they want, then claim everything else is "wrong". PLDs can heal, SMNs can melee. You just won't find many that will accept the truth. It is more convenient to pretend the job only has ONE way to be played. For one thing, it lets you mock others who stray from the path.

[Korpg]

Its not that I don't mind SMNs meleeing on trash mobs, its that when others state that if you don't melee, you are worthless, that is when I have to set those people straight.

That and that melee SMN outdamages Ukon WARs.

[Alhanelem]

Finally, SMN should not need to Melee to compare to other jobs.I agree in the sense that the avatars should be strong enough to be respected on their own. But the very fact that SMN can add some small amount of damage by meleeing seems to prevent them from making any avatar as strong as a player. This is why some people feel they have to do it, because SE will never make the summons strong enough to compete with other jobs by themselves, just because you could add another 5% (if the avatars were actually strong) by attacking yourself. So just using that random number, they would never make a summon more than 95% of a player's strength.

It's kind of stupid, but at the same time I can see why they're so cautious about it. Pet jobs ARE hard to balance. But SE is much more cautious iwth SMN than with PUP DRG or BST. Maybe they're afraid because of the popularity of summoners in the franchise, that if they make SMN actually "good" then everyone will bandwagon all over it.

[Dallas]

Its not that I don't mind SMNs meleeing on trash mobs, its that when others state that if you don't melee, you are worthless, that is when I have to set those people straight.

You do less on SMN than me. That's OK, most people play a weaker SMN because they are lazy. It's you as a poster that has no value to the SMN community. You champion "lazy" because you have a WAR that no one cares about. You beg for the attention from the last person who will ever care what you do.

Your sense of worthlessness is something you brought with you. You take it with you too.

[Dallas]

That SMN/RDM is helping out the party a lot more than swinging a staff to keep an avatar out does.

Bolded: Hence, the reason why you need to swing a staff. Love to see you keep your avatar out outside of abyssea....oh wait.

Also: Gear, man, you really have no clue what a SMN is. Any/everyone who is a SMN can name off the gear you just put on there by name. Why can't you?

Plus: You mentioned that you solo stuff. What exactly have you soloed? Bubbly Bernie doesn't count.

Edit: 4 posts in a row! Sorry about that guys!

OMG! I matter! Pay attention to me!

[Razushu]

You do less on SMN than me. That's OK, most people play a weaker SMN because they are lazy. It's you as a poster that has no value to the SMN community. You champion "lazy" because you have a WAR that no one cares about. You beg for the attention from the last person who will ever care what you do.

Your sense of worthlessness is something you brought with you. You take it with you too.

Nobody does less on SMN than you, because quite frankly no one in their right mind would let you near anything(you personally, not melee mages in general) higher than TW--.

[Korpg]

You do less on SMN than me. That's OK, most people play a weaker SMN because they are lazy. It's you as a poster that has no value to the SMN community. You champion "lazy" because you have a WAR that no one cares about. You beg for the attention from the last person who will ever care what you do.

Your sense of worthlessness is something you brought with you. You take it with you too.

How can I do less than you as a SMN when you don't even PLAY SMN? You don't make any contributions to a job you don't play. You are about as worthwhile as what you preach. Which is garbage.

[Alhanelem]

That level 1 RDM is probably his real character and main job

[Razushu]

That level 1 RDM is probably his real character and main job

I would not be suprised, I honestly think he hates SMN and is trying to damage us by pretending to be one.

[Tagrineth]

In most cases it is not about what you can do, but what you want to do. Take PLD for example that indeed CAN main heal, but it will be rare to see them do so. BLU can also main heal... you won't see that happen often.

Almost all jobs pick one role they want, then claim everything else is "wrong". PLDs can heal, SMNs can melee. You just won't find many that will accept the truth. It is more convenient to pretend the job only has ONE way to be played. For one thing, it lets you mock others who stray from the path.

PLD can main heal OUTSIDE ABYSSEA, but it's inferior to anything with a bigger native MP pool, and the other jobs restricted to Cure IV have much better options for enhancing their cures as well as recovering their larger MP pools. Considering this is really only relevant outside abyssea (GL keeping up with cures inside...), the smaller MP and very limited innate MP recovery make it laughably inefficient compared to the other Cure IV options. And BLU is limited pretty badly by recast timers, usually every time I've tried having a BLU main heal even on easy stuff like Gnawtooth it hasn't ended well.

So uh... no, try again

[Korpg]

PLD can main heal OUTSIDE ABYSSEA, but it's inferior to anything with a bigger native MP pool, and the other jobs restricted to Cure IV have much better options for enhancing their cures as well as recovering their larger MP pools. Considering this is really only relevant outside abyssea (GL keeping up with cures inside...), the smaller MP and very limited innate MP recovery make it laughably inefficient compared to the other Cure IV options. And BLU is limited pretty badly by recast timers, usually every time I've tried having a BLU main heal even on easy stuff like Gnawtooth it hasn't ended well.

So uh... no, try again

You missed the point. Because it can, that means to the melee SMNs that they should. Thats how they think.

Because PLD could main heal with their Cure spells and their MP, they should.

Because BLU could main heal with their learned healing spells and their MP, they should.

Like because SMN could whack stuff with their staffs, they should.

[Tagrineth]

You missed the point. Because it can, that means to the melee SMNs that they should. Thats how they think.

Because PLD could main heal with their Cure spells and their MP, they should.

Because BLU could main heal with their learned healing spells and their MP, they should.

Like because SMN could whack stuff with their staffs, they should.

Oh okay, you're effectively agreeing with me.

My post was more saying "Well, it's remotely possible, but not feasible in the slightest" than actually saying "yes, it works".

[Korpg]

Oh okay, you're effectively agreeing with me.

My post was more saying "Well, it's remotely possible, but not feasible in the slightest" than actually saying "yes, it works".

I was telling you how they think.

[Dallas]

My post was more saying "Well, it's remotely possible, but not feasible in the slightest" than actually saying "yes, it works".

Yes, it works. Hold on to your hat... here we go. SMN/SAM "melee" versus SMN/RDM "sitter."


100% TP is a guaranteed 360 MP outside of Abyssea, and 500+ MP inside. 1 TP regain = 3.6 MP refresh. Refresh spell = 2.2 MP net refresh. In other words, simply owning the regain earring from WotG is 50% better than subbing /RDM for the Refresh spell. I haven't started meleeing yet.

Convert, if you are smart about race and gear choices, give you 1200MP every 10 minutes. That then requires, I'll be generous, a full Cure Potency set to recover HP in 3 casts of Cure 3. Net MP gained = 1062 MP. This is equal to one 300% TP Myrkr outside of Abyssea.

10 minutes as melee SMN to generate 300% TP... First, that's 3.333 uses of Meditate, or 200% TP for free. That means I need 100% TP earned the hard way, by actually hitting something. /SAM generates 11.5% TP per hit, without gear or food. That's 9 hits to reach 100% TP. I need to connect with the mob once every 67 seconds. In terms of accuracy, I have 48% Haste on a 390 delay weapon. I attack every 3.38 seconds, not including any double attack. Let's round down and say I only attack 19 times every 67 seconds.

I need a hit rate of 5.2% or greater to generate more MP than /RDM. Using Hasso gives me an additional 5% hit rate. From SMN main job itself, any accuracy higher than 0.2% is better at MP recovery than SMN/RDM. I'll skip to the end: accuracy of 20% generates 2000MP more per 10 minutes, the same as wearing -10 perp in gear. 40% = -20 perp, and so on, up to cap 90% (don't forget Hasso) = -45 perp.

Yes, it works so well, I use it. It's hard to convince me otherwise, as my MP is always full.

[Tagrineth]

Why did I hit view post lol...

You're such a pathetic troll. That post is so full of GIGANTIC STRAWMAN THE SIZE OF NEW JERSEY that my head's spinning.

[Razushu]

Why did I hit view post lol...

You're such a pathetic troll. That post is so full of GIGANTIC STRAWMAN THE SIZE OF NEW JERSEY that my head's spinning.

He's not trolling, he honestly thinks he's the only person, with the only way to have unlimited MP. His argument always boils down to "I don't care if you have unlimited MP, I have more."

[Dallas]

I know what the strawman is. The strawman is assuming that SMN/RDM and it's almighty Cure 3 is a competent playstyle which all SMN should strive to achieve.

[Razushu]

I know what the strawman is. The strawman is assuming that SMN/RDM and it's almighty Cure 3 is a competent playstyle which all SMN should strive to achieve.

But somehow lolworthy melee is?

[Dallas]

Compared to you, the person competing for my party slot, yes.

[Razushu]

Compared to you, the person competing for my party slot, yes.

You're not even in my league little guy. As a skilled support/DD SMN, I'm competing against other SMNs and support roles. As a SMN/SAM, you think you're competing against other SMNs as well as real DDS, when in reality all you're competing for is the dry seat on the short bus.

[Leonlionheart]

You're not even in my league little guy. As a skilled support/DD SMN, I'm competing against other SMNs and support roles. As a SMN/SAM, you think you're competing against other SMNs as well as real DDS, when in reality all you're competing for is the dry seat on the short bus.

Someone just got told.

[Tagrineth]

But somehow lolworthy melee is?

Actually the real funny thing is he has this idea that people actually use smn/rdm. Wat.

[Leonlionheart]

Actually the real funny thing is he has this idea that people actually use smn/rdm. Wat.

I told him SMN/RDM never run out of MP. That's where he got the idea.

Although I never personally use /RDM, it's either /SCH (AoE Stoneskin w/o blood pact? K.) or, and this is most common, /WHM. I can see the merits of /RDM though. Dispel is a proc that many people look over most of the time.

[Korpg]

Ok, lets see. With 100% TP without meleeing outside of Abyssea, your avatar will have costed you...1400 mp to keep out. That is 14 mp per tick perp cost times 100. That 14 mp per tick perp cost is how much your avatar costs at 90 (16 perp) minus the 2 mp Refresh you get from traits. You have no Refresh gear, nor do you have any perp gear, because that stands in the way of your haste, accuracy, and attack. My gear, during that same time, would have netted me an extra 520 MP. Thats 6 MP per tick refresh from the spell, gear, and perp cost down to +1 back, and the +2 horn I use anyway, minus the cost of casting Refresh on myself twice. We are looking at a net difference of 1920 mp between the two. And we haven't even melee'd yet.

OMG guys, a 9 hit build! So average WAR melee can get TP in 9.5 hits, an average SMN melee outside of abyssea can get TP in 13 hits. Inside abyssea, 12 hits. Including Hasso. Got to love the "in terms of accuracy, I have haste, double attack and such." You still wiff a lot more than a WAR. So, lets say 12 swings per 100% TP, that is 36 swings for 300% TP, assuming the 3.38 seconds per swing, it takes you a little over 2 minutes (121.68) to get to 300% TP. But wait, lets add the Regain earring back on. 121.68/3 is 40.56, so lets give that TP for free to Dallas. He needs 259.44 TP to get to 300. 259.44/3.38 = 77 seconds. So, between 77 seconds to 122 seconds is what it takes to get to 300% TP, so lets go to the middle and say...wow, 100 seconds even.

100 seconds for Dallas to get to 300% TP. That is 33 ticks. That is 462 MP wasted on having an avatar out by itself.

Include 4 BPs (for simplicity sake, lets assume all BPs are Predator Claws and Whispering Wind and no Blood Boons) the cost increases by 566 MP. Including the MP cost to keep the avatar out, that is 1028 MP used up.

Now, lets include /RDM to the picture. In 100 seconds I get 158 MP back (6 * 33)-40. Assuming the usage of BPs, I use a total of 408 MP. Not bad. I haven't even used Elemental Siphon yet, haven't even needed it either. 408 MP is about 1/3 of my MP total, so that means I can hold out on using Convert alone for 7 minutes. Sure, I won't ride all the way to back-to-back Converts, but I don't need to use Elemental Siphon more than once between Converts. Which is basically unlimited MP for /RDM too. No Refresh atmas needed.

Dallas, on the other hand, has to melee to keep the avatar out. He uses up 1028 MP just to get 300% TP. Now, lets hope he doesn't get killed by AoE there, cause then he won't be able to keep up the pressure.

Plus, we have that new ability that increase cost to BP sooner. That would mean that Dallas will not be able to get to 300% TP before running out of MP, because that new ability hurts him twice: added cost and added number of BPs.

And I was very generous with giving Dallas 100% TP in 12 hits. Also, no refresh atmas needed to keep MP up.

[Korpg]

Actually the real funny thing is he has this idea that people actually use smn/rdm. Wat.

I use /RDM for soloing purposes, which is basically the only time I bring out SMN anyway.

Why should I bring SMN to a party if we are not pet burning stuff, and only a few mobs (inside and outside abyssea) would need to be pet burned period (AoEs are too damaging or have really bad, undispelable effects, while the drops don't justify a brew). If something needs killing, I bring out my WAR to 95% of the stuff out there.

[Dallas]

Ok, lets see. With 100% TP without meleeing outside of Abyssea, your avatar will have costed you...1400 mp to keep out. That is 14 mp per tick perp cost times 100.

14 perp cost, less Nash hands, less evoker's ring, less Auto-Refresh 2 = 10 perp cost = 20% melee accuracy. That's why my post exists, to educate you. Since your first assumption was completely ignorant of SMN, I will assume the rest says something about WAR pwning BLM.

[Leonlionheart]

It should only take him 8 hits to get 100% actually. Assuming Goading+Rajas+Brutal+White Tathlum+/SAM. 10 w/o all that. Also, it should take him 3.48s per swing, assuming he's at least pulling off 22% Haste, which isn't 23 because of Goading instead of Ninurta's.

All that means, is that instead of 100 seconds to 300%, its 83.52.

*Assuming Hastega and Hasso

[Dallas]

It should only take him 8 hits to get 100% actually. Assuming Goading+Rajas+Brutal+White Tathlum+/SAM. 10 w/o all that. Also, it should take him 3.48s per swing, assuming he's at least pulling off 22% Haste, which isn't 23 because of Goading instead of Ninurta's.

All that means, is that instead of 100 seconds to 300%, its 83.52.

*Assuming Hastega and Hasso

I use Tern set instead of Goading for 23% Haste. 3.38 seconds per swing. If you convert Meditate and regain earring into store TP (it's messy if you don't), I think I am at 14.6 effective TP per hit (assuming 100% accuracy). 21 hits to 300% TP. Add in 7% DA, and I come up with 66.3 seconds to reach 300% TP. In perp costs terms, I spend 220 MP to get 1080 MP.

I think Arrabbiata is the new best food for SMN outside of Abyssea, and would knock another 3.1 seconds off.

Even less time needed in Abyssea. (Needless to say, this is overkill.)

BTW: Goading is faster to 300% by 1.3 seconds. Tern Set generates 2% more melee damage and doesn't have +enmity(bad). I wouldn't switch over to Goading until I need more MP... unlikely.



And I was very generous with giving Dallas 100% TP in 12 hits.

Maybe he meant "12 swings?"

[Leonlionheart]

I use Tern set instead of Goading for 23% Haste. 3.38 seconds per swing. If you convert Meditate and regain earring into store TP (it's messy if you don't), I think I am at 14.6 effective TP per hit (assuming 100% accuracy). 21 hits to 300% TP. Add in 7% DA, and I come up with 66.3 seconds to reach 300% TP. In perp costs terms, I spend 220 MP to get 1080 MP.

I think Arrabbiata is the new best food for SMN outside of Abyssea, and would knock another 3.1 seconds off.

Even less time needed in Abyssea. (Needless to say, this is overkill.)

BTW: Goading is faster to 300% by 1.3 seconds. Tern Set generates 2% more melee damage and doesn't have +enmity(bad). I wouldn't switch over to Goading until I need more MP... unlikely.



Maybe he meant "12 swings?"

With Goading you wouldn't have to gimp your food with Arrabbiata, as Red Curry Buns have a much higher attack cap, and you need all you can get.

You also lose out on 8 attack+ 1% DA(Aesir Mantle), and either 10 accuracy, or 5% Crit Rate (I think that the two best options for neck slot would be fully charged Rancor Collar or PCC)

If you had VV and used Rose Strap, since you are probably never, ever, ever going to melee outside abyssea, you could knock down 8 hits to 6 hits with regain moonshade, however, there is a large margin of error since you should be using VV+RR+Apoc, meaning TA and DA will make your 6 hit a 7 or 8 hit. Not that it matters, since your ws does 0 damage, and is only there for maintaining MP. Also, having March would ruin regain making it a for sure 7 hit.

However this is all assuming you keep 1 avatar out for the entire time you are engaged, SEVERELY reducing the utility of SMN. This option (melee SMN) only slightly adds melee DMG at the cost of higher risk, in which case the slot would be better filled by WAR DRG SAM MNK DNC THF (Basically any job meant to get up close) by a long shot.

That's why SMN melee will always be as much of a toy as a ridill is.

Expensive
"Fun"
Useless

[Dallas]

With Goading you wouldn't have to gimp your food with Arrabbiata, as Red Curry Buns have a much higher attack cap, and you need all you can get.

You also lose out on 8 attack+ 1% DA(Aesir Mantle), and either 10 accuracy, or 5% Crit Rate (I think that the two best options for neck slot would be fully charged Rancor Collar or PCC)

If you had VV and used Rose Strap, since you are probably never, ever, ever going to melee outside abyssea, you could knock down 8 hits to 6 hits with regain moonshade, however, there is a large margin of error since you should be using VV+RR+Apoc, meaning TA and DA will make your 6 hit a 7 or 8 hit. Not that it matters, since your ws does 0 damage, and is only there for maintaining MP. Also, having March would ruin regain making it a for sure 7 hit.

However this is all assuming you keep 1 avatar out for the entire time you are engaged, SEVERELY reducing the utility of SMN. This option (melee SMN) only slightly adds melee DMG at the cost of higher risk, in which case the slot would be better filled by WAR DRG SAM MNK DNC THF (Basically any job meant to get up close) by a long shot.

That's why SMN melee will always be as much of a toy as a ridill is.

Expensive
"Fun"
Useless
Funny, I've been meleeing for 6 years. Abyssea hasn't been around that long. I spent the last 2 weeks playing outside of Abyssea, meleeing the whole time. It's all safe, except for some event that no one wants gear from.

You are right, I could spend millions on the Rancor Collar. I'm cheap. I'll wait for it to come down in price. The choice is between accuracy (usually capped) and 1% DA, or 1% Haste. The latter wins.

Now then, here's the thing you are missing: there is no benefit to using Myrkr at 100% TP. In fact, tests were showing that L3 aftermath had a higher proc rate than L1 aftermath. Call me superstitious, but the test was convincing enough for me. 300% only. Always. 3*0 is no better than 1*0.

Forget the X-hit builds, I don't need them. Fewer WS means less delay anyway. As for food, SMN base attack isn't high enough to warrant Red Curry Buns. The HP is MUCH higher, and the 5 store TP is much more useful than the extra 0.5% attack (at most, 3 more attack).

As for damage dealt, you are approaching the dangerously deep end of the pool. The numbers are so high that they can't be measured solo. The job is broken without additional hate tools. Many anecdotes, no numbers.

[Leonlionheart]

As for damage dealt, you are approaching the dangerously deep end of the pool. The numbers are so high that they can't be measured solo. The job is broken without additional hate tools. Many anecdotes, no numbers.

If I knew a Melee SMN with your exact gear, I would parse him.

First on DRK
Then on DRG
Then on BLU
Then on MNK
Then on WAR

I'm certain that Melee SMN is a complete waste when the slot could be filled with one of those, and those are just the DDs I have (Not including SMN and BLM).

I have no idea what you're trying to say about hate tools and jobs being broken though...

[Dallas]

Simple. The SMN is supposed to summon powerful beings. Because of the pace of the game, SMN is more powerful than those beings. SMN is broken.

[Leonlionheart]

Simple. The SMN is supposed to summon powerful beings. Because of the pace of the game, SMN is more powerful than those beings. SMN is broken.

So you're saying the player is stronger than the avatars?

[Meyi]

It won't happen strictly because of .dat modification.

I really like this idea though. It'd be like a stance; Light Arts/Dark Arts, Afflatus Solace/Afflatus Misery, and Inin/Yonin. Ah, Possession/Dissolution (what we currently do now with the summoner and the avatar in two separate bodies).

[Malamasala]

I'm certain that Melee SMN is a complete waste when the slot could be filled with one of those, and those are just the DDs I have (Not including SMN and BLM).

Melee SMNs are the same waste as CORs not subbing WHM. Do they really think their pitiful ranged attacks is going to help the party? It only feeds TP. If we wanted a party member shooting, we'd invite a RNG.

Case in point. You can't choose your arguments for what you want to say. Either COR/WHM and SMN/WHM are the only alternatives, or both can be played in a more damage oriented way.

[Alhanelem]

So you're saying the player is stronger than the avatars?
Well yes, that was proven with number crunching. Currently the player is capable of a significantly higher damage output than the summon (largely because of the BP recast). If melee SMN has done anything especially good, it's further illustrated just how weak the avatars are. The very fact that even if the master melees the damage is still way too low says that SMN is just not strong enough (outside of some special, uncommonly used purposes)


Do they really think their pitiful ranged attacks is going to help the party? It only feeds TP. If we wanted a party member shooting, we'd invite a RNG.Any decent COR shooting is not doing "pitiful ranged attacks" and their weapon skills are not far off a RNG. CORs do not have to sub WHM to be effective.


Either COR/WHM and SMN/WHM are the only alternatives, or both can be played in a more damage oriented way.Both can be played in a more damage oriented way. Though one happens to be obviously better than the other.

[Korpg]

Thanks Leon, I forgot about /SAM STP+15. Thanks for the corrected numbers.


(largely because of the BP recast)

The only reason why a summoner with an emp staff has higher numbers than an avatar meleeing next to them and using BPs also is because of the ODD on the staff. Shame that the avatar doesn't benefit from the ODD, then the numbers would be for the avatar, not the summoner swinger. Nirvana, however, is doing it right.

My point in my post was that the MP usage from a melee SMN is horrendous. Dallas, I saw your melee gear, and you didn't have Evoker's ring at all. Nash hands, I forgot to include in the perp cost, sorry. You saved yourself 33 MP from your 1k+ usage, so it puts you just at...1k usage. Didn't help much.

There is a huge difference between MP usage between the two of us. The time you get enough TP to use a WS without having to use any BPs or meleeing, you would have used all of your MP pool. I would have gained half mine in that time. And neither of us have used any BPs at all. Include BPs, and you have to swing your staff in order to keep your avatar out.

Even if you /SAM, you would still be out of MP before you get your vaunted 300% TP needed to get, what, 60% of your MP back?

Also, what have you melee soloed on to make swinging a staff worth it, like you claim you do all the time? I don't know what party would invite you to swing a staff, unless that party is full of perle SAMs and pink MNKs.

[Alhanelem]

There is a huge difference between MP usage between the two of us.No, there isn't, because I don't really use a lot of specialized DD gear. I still have a lot of perpetuation on. For me, meleeing is mainly speeding up solo play. The only reason you'll really see me meleeing in a party is for skill up; I still get to use the empy WS even when not meleeing, because I prefer using DD atmas for predator claws over using MAB atmas for a magic pact. You are highly overestimating the cost of keeping an avatar out for ~2 minutes.


The time you get enough TP to use a WS without having to use any BPs or meleeing, you would have used all of your MP pool. No, you wouldn't. But again, it's not an issue because I don't go full on DD gear. I'm not Dallas, and I'm not trying to pretend I can compete with Ukon WARs. I also feel I still need WHM sub to ensure that I don't need to stop between fights. When you realize that you're only meleeing for your own benefit when it suits you and not to try to be the best DD in the world, you end up performing probably better than a guy like Dallas that probably doesn't even play the game.


Also, what have you melee soloed on to make swinging a staff worth it, like you claim you do all the time? I don't know what party would invite you to swing a staff, unless that party is full of perle SAMs and pink MNKs. As I said, I don't usually use SMN in a group, except on a "for fun" basis, but when you're in a cruor/time/exp farm, no one really gives a rats behind what you do as long as you're not AFK or a WHM that isn't curing.

[Korpg]

Sorry Al, most of that post was in response to Dallas.

I quoted you for reference.

[Dallas]

So you're saying the player is stronger than the avatars?

Al covered most of it. SMN does more damage overall than the avatar. Yes, Myrkr damage is 0 DMG and SMN is still stronger. At any point the avatar does not land a solid BP on the enemy, the SMN is going to immediately get hate. With the BP, a good -enmity build will keep the SMN safe. -enmity is available in every non-haste slot.

This problem has existed for me for 4 years. I retired Carby back in 2007. I retired Fenrir (weak BPs) in 2008. Garuda became a problem with OA3 Yantok in 2010. Now with Hvergelmir, every hit pulls hate, even with /WHM and perp gear. We don't have a stronger avatar.

While everyone else sat around crying how weak the job is, I doubled in strength. Yet, here we are, in a thread asking for stronger melee SMN buffs. I'm the only one who keeps laughing.

[Leonlionheart]

I've always said the avatar needs a buff.

I don't agree with the idea, though it's cool.

[Dallas]

Avatar fixes are the only solution that will do anything. I'm hoping SMN gets a passive adjustment to the timer:

Use a BP before timer is ready, counter increments by 1. 10 is highest counter value.
BP timer is ready, counter resets to 1.

BP cost = base cost * (100% * (counter)) * blood boon adj

Use BPs at will. Weaker physical BPs can be spammed, higher level ones are *very* expensive.

[Korpg]

Al covered most of it. SMN does more damage overall than the avatar. Yes, Myrkr damage is 0 DMG and SMN is still stronger. At any point the avatar does not land a solid BP on the enemy, the SMN is going to immediately get hate. With the BP, a good -enmity build will keep the SMN safe. -enmity is available in every non-haste slot.

This problem has existed for me for 4 years. I retired Carby back in 2007. I retired Fenrir (weak BPs) in 2008. Garuda became a problem with OA3 Yantok in 2010. Now with Hvergelmir, every hit pulls hate, even with /WHM and perp gear. We don't have a stronger avatar.

While everyone else sat around crying how weak the job is, I doubled in strength. Yet, here we are, in a thread asking for stronger melee SMN buffs. I'm the only one who keeps laughing.

If avatars are weaker than you, why summon them in the first place? Why not go full melee mage route and become somebody who completely depends on swinging a staff for damage?

Mind you, the only reason why you "can" do more damage than an avatar is ODD on your staff. Take that away, and the avatars WILL do more damage than you. Swinging a staff for 100~150 damage while your avatar does 100~125 damage per hit will make you do more damage, but when you start using BPs, the avatar will do more damage than you over time.

600 per hit damage is a lie. That is crit hit + ODD damage. If you consider that every time you swing a staff and hit for 600 each time, then I will consider that every time I swing a GA and hit for 4,500 each time. You do about 100 damage per hit as I do 600 damage per hit, without added help. That is the way things are.

[Alhanelem]

Mind you, the only reason why you "can" do more damage than an avatar is ODD on your staff. Take that away, and the avatars WILL do more damage than you.Not quite, actually; the avatar was found to be about 1/3 of the total damage IIRC (if using full out melee gear) Meaning removing the ODD would bring it to about even.


That is crit hit + ODD damage.It might not be a lie against skeletons; I've had Double Damage crits near 1k without a melee set on skeletons. (of course any other job can do 1200+ DD crits with neutral damage types)

He's exaggerating as usual, but a little less ridiculously this time.

Regardless, any SMN who does melee gets the idea to because the avatars just aren't strong enough. the SUMMONs need a boost. BP faster, better melee damage, faster delay, they need a general power increase across the board.

[Leonlionheart]

Avatar fixes are the only solution that will do anything. I'm hoping SMN gets a passive adjustment to the timer:

Use a BP before timer is ready, counter increments by 1. 10 is highest counter value.
BP timer is ready, counter resets to 1.

BP cost = base cost * (100% * (counter)) * blood boon adj

Use BPs at will. Weaker physical BPs can be spammed, higher level ones are *very* expensive.

That's not a bad idea. Even if it is from Dallas. WTF DID I JUST SAY

[Korpg]

That's not a bad idea. Even if it is from Dallas. WTF DID I JUST SAY

Yeah, but he thinks that his idea will be only beneficial for him, and that no other Summoner shall be able to benefit from his idea. WTF DID YOU JUST SAY????

[Leonlionheart]

Yeah, but he thinks that his idea will be only beneficial for him, and that no other Summoner shall be able to benefit from his idea. WTF DID YOU JUST SAY????

Honestly if that get's implemented. BRD+RDM+SMN+SMN+SMN+SMN would be... pretty damn decent.

[Korpg]

Honestly if that get's implemented. BRD+RDM+SMN+SMN+SMN+SMN would be... pretty damn decent.

That's already decent as is. Most people don't realize, but take away procs, and a party of SMNs can take down most everything.

[Leonlionheart]

That's already decent as is. Most people don't realize, but take away procs, and a party of SMNs can take down most everything.

DPS in comparison to BRD COR(Assuming we have 5 hittable WARs) WAR WAR WAR SMN(ALEXANDER I CHOOSE YOU!) is... utterly pale.

[Korpg]

DPS in comparison to BRD COR(Assuming we have 5 hittable WARs) WAR WAR WAR SMN(ALEXANDER I CHOOSE YOU!) is... utterly pale.

True. I'm not saying that SMN only setups will always prevail over other setups, but SMN only setups are generally the most safe routes to take, although now, the risk is very limited, so if anything, SMNs should be complaining that the one thing in a party setup that they excel at has been taken away. Oddly enough, not one SMN has said a word....

[Alhanelem]

So in other wrods you're saying one of our strengths has been taken away by the game being made easier. That's not something we or they really had control over.

[Korpg]

So in other wrods you're saying one of our strengths has been taken away by the game being made easier. That's not something we or they really had control over.

I rather have one of the strengths of one of the jobs here be taken away to make it better for everyone else.

[Dallas]

That's not a bad idea. Even if it is from Dallas.

As a top-tier SMN, I don't frequently make suggestions. I want the minimalist SMN to convince SE to do something completely broken like remove the BP timer without penalty, so that I can burn through my 800MP surplus. That's 5xPC, or 11k DMG per Myrkr, outside of Abyssea. That number jumps to 36k per Myrkr inside Abyssea (9xPC @ 4k DMG per). Think about that speed discussion again... I think this would be enough damage as a result of melee SMN to end this debate forever, don't you?

My suggestion adds a really harsh penalty for pushing my limits. I don't really want that to happen.

[Korpg]

Dallas, can you go 1 post without proclaiming that you are god?

[Malamasala]

True. I'm not saying that SMN only setups will always prevail over other setups, but SMN only setups are generally the most safe routes to take, although now, the risk is very limited, so if anything, SMNs should be complaining that the one thing in a party setup that they excel at has been taken away. Oddly enough, not one SMN has said a word....

One word, greed. People are too greedy for fast kills with high damage jobs to even care if safety is sacrificed. Why should a SMN complain about not being wanted in 18 man SMN burns, when they can get their upgrade items faster with a group of WARs?

[Korpg]

One word, greed. People are too greedy for fast kills with high damage jobs to even care if safety is sacrificed. Why should a SMN complain about not being wanted in 18 man SMN burns, when they can get their upgrade items faster with a group of WARs?

You have no clue as to what I was talking about. Actually, I don't think you have any clue as to what you are talking about either.

[Leonlionheart]

One word, greed. People are too greedy for fast kills with high damage jobs to even care if safety is sacrificed. Why should a SMN complain about not being wanted in 18 man SMN burns, when they can get their upgrade items faster with a group of WARs?

Greed does not equate to efficiency I'm afraid.

That's like saying "Oh, sure I'll take the job at McDonalds"
while also saying, "even though I have this job at Apple lined up"

Conversely, you wouldn't call someone who took the job at Apple instead of McDonalds greedy. There's a way to get what you want faster, and there's a way to get what you want slower. Most people like fast, but if you want to waste 18 people's time, that's your choice.

[Malamasala]

You have no clue as to what I was talking about. Actually, I don't think you have any clue as to what you are talking about either.

I'm pretty sure anyone who wanted a serious discussion would have said "You missed my point, I was talking about...". Good to see you are just trolling as usual though. If you ever feel like having a real discussion, feel free to tell me the point I missed.

In reply to Leonlionheart, I said greed to explain that people who want items prefer faster methods. Apparently you found it offensive, and rather uses the word efficiency. I'll just say "whatever" since the point is that SMNs want things fast.

[Tarage]

As a life long SMN, the idea of making a SMN melee is the worst idea I have ever heard. We are a MAGE class. We don't melee.

[Korpg]

I'm pretty sure anyone who wanted a serious discussion would have said "You missed my point, I was talking about...". Good to see you are just trolling as usual though. If you ever feel like having a real discussion, feel free to tell me the point I missed.

Ok, I'll bite.

You don't know what I was talking about when I said we lost our the most important thing we excel at, which is the ability to kill stuff without risk of dying. We lost that ability when Apoc Atma and Twilight Mail/Helm set came out. Now any noob out there can kill stuff because of the RR on Apoc and that set. Now do you see what I'm talking about?

[Tarage]

Ok, I'll bite.

You don't know what I was talking about when I said we lost our the most important thing we excel at, which is the ability to kill stuff without risk of dying. We lost that ability when Apoc Atma and Twilight Mail/Helm set came out. Now any noob out there can kill stuff because of the RR on Apoc and that set. Now do you see what I'm talking about?

Further proof that you have no idea what SMN is for. We are, always have been, and always will be, a SUPPORT job. Yes, we can solo things, but we aren't supposed to be the end-all-be-all solo job. That has ALWAYS been the BST, and even then SE doesn't want them to be completely solo.

I love your hatred of Abyssea. It's so cute.

[Dallas]

Dallas, can you go 1 post without proclaiming that you are god?

800 = MP that I gain in 60 seconds above and beyond the guy in my shadow.
800 = posts the guy in my shadow has made, begging me to recognize skills he only has because I taught him.

[Leonlionheart]

800 = MP that I gain in 60 seconds above and beyond the guy in my shadow.
800 = posts the guy in my shadow has made, begging me to recognize skills he only has because I taught him.

800 = the difference between your DPS and a real DD's DPS (including your avatar).

[Tarage]

No. One. Cares.

Stop waving your e-dick around already.

[Dallas]

800 = the difference between your DPS and a real DD's DPS (including your avatar).

Poor 1-tricks... stealing the credit from the cast of thousands that keep your DPS afloat.

[Meyi]

Dallas please stop. :/ SE won't ever take us seriously with your comments floating around here.

[Razushu]

800 = MP that I gain in 60 seconds above and beyond the guy in my shadow.
800 = posts the guy in my shadow has made, begging me to recognize skills he only has because I taught him.

Still clinging to the "I have more MP than you other guys with unlimited MP" argument I see.

[Korpg]

Further proof that you have no idea what SMN is for. We are, always have been, and always will be, a SUPPORT job. Yes, we can solo things, but we aren't supposed to be the end-all-be-all solo job. That has ALWAYS been the BST, and even then SE doesn't want them to be completely solo.

I love your hatred of Abyssea. It's so cute.

I don't hate abyssea, I was making a point. You throw 18 SMNs at anything and it dies without any risk involved.

Also, what does SMN support? Healing? Damage? Buffing? Wait, so are you saying that a WAR is a support job because it can help do damage or tank? Or WHM is a support job because it can help buff and heal?

Also, SMN can solo more mobs than BST. What BST can do is solo mobs faster than SMN, but SMN can solo more mobs and NMs because of our ability to recast new avatars in a manner of seconds. If a BST fails at charming a pet, and they already used Jug Pet, they are screwed. Don't forget that.

[Korpg]

800 = MP that I gain in 60 seconds above and beyond the guy in my shadow.
800 = posts the guy in my shadow has made, begging me to recognize skills he only has because I taught him.

800 MP in 60 seconds? Yeah right. I thought it was closer to 100 seconds, unless you are fudging the math in your favor again.

Also, who here needs 800 MP in 100 seconds more than you? Inside Abyssea or Outside? Inside Abyssea you can whack on some mobs without much worry, outside, people will kick you from your party. Or if you are soloing, as soon as your avatar dies, so do you, so you can't solo anything harder than a level 50 NM.

[Tarage]

I don't hate abyssea, I was making a point. You throw 18 SMNs at anything and it dies without any risk involved.

Also, what does SMN support? Healing? Damage? Buffing? Wait, so are you saying that a WAR is a support job because it can help do damage or tank? Or WHM is a support job because it can help buff and heal?

Also, SMN can solo more mobs than BST. What BST can do is solo mobs faster than SMN, but SMN can solo more mobs and NMs because of our ability to recast new avatars in a manner of seconds. If a BST fails at charming a pet, and they already used Jug Pet, they are screwed. Don't forget that.

If it's a mage class job that isn't BLU, it's a support job. It's not that hard of a concept to understand, but I doubt you ever will.