How to play Summoner

[Neonii]

I see a lot of folks on these forums stating others don't know how to play summoner. So I would like to see your viewpoint on how summoner should be played. There must be some hidden knowledge that only a few summoners know so please share. This is not a troll thread I really want to know what these statements are based on. IMO most smn have a nice working knowledge of the job and what is their individual play style is. But on the other hand, that statement keeps popping so please share.

[Korpg]

It all comes down to viewpoint of how a SMN should be played.

There are pretty much 2 types of viewpoints when it comes to SMN. Well, 2 extremes.

On the left side, you got the melee only stance. Otherwise known as the Dallas approach.

On the right side, you got the mage only stance. Otherwise known as the Raz approach.

Which one is better also depends on the person's playstyle. The left side is most dependent with parties while the right side can be very self-sufficient.

The argument here is generally which one is better. To be honest, neither are the best, and neither are the worst. They both have their niches, and both excel at the setup at hand.

Want a challange? The SMN would be the soloist. Want to be included with others? The SMN would be the party-ist.

There are those, however, who state that they are the best damage dealer in the game. Those are the ones you would ignore, like people in the street stating the world is going to end or want you to join their religion.

[Razushu]

It all comes down to viewpoint of how a SMN should be played.

There are pretty much 2 types of viewpoints when it comes to SMN. Well, 2 extremes.

On the left side, you got the melee only stance. Otherwise known as the Dallas approach.

On the right side, you got the mage only stance. Otherwise known as the Raz approach.

Which one is better also depends on the person's playstyle. The left side is most dependent with parties while the right side can be very self-sufficient.

The argument here is generally which one is better. To be honest, neither are the best, and neither are the worst. They both have their niches, and both excel at the setup at hand.

Want a challange? The SMN would be the soloist. Want to be included with others? The SMN would be the party-ist.

There are those, however, who state that they are the best damage dealer in the game. Those are the ones you would ignore, like people in the street stating the world is going to end or want you to join their religion.

Hey.. I never said SMN should never melee. SMN melee like any other mage meleeing is about picking your battles, only do it when it's safe, worth it and not a hinderance/liability to the party. I've said somewhere here more than once that both have their place and melee is ok when the situation allows.

Mainly what I argue about are the outrageous claims of some people on these forums. Not that a mage should never melee. If you want to gear a mage for melee and play that way thats's fine, as long as you're careful and know what you're doing. I only really pop up and argue when someone says SMN does 80% of the damage a WAR does, or some other such crazy claim.

[Korpg]

Thought you wanted to get honored as the complete opposite of Dallas....sorry

[Razushu]

Thought you wanted to get honored as the complete opposite of Dallas....sorry



Although it is nice to have my good works recognised. I only act like that when making fun of him lol. The rest of the time I try to atleast pretend I'm a reasonable human being. Thanks for the compliment though. I just don't want to start another argument with someone who thinks I'm a "MAGE MELEE GTFO /RAGE" kind of guy, it's harder to have real discussions with normal, sane player's that way.

[Neonii]

Personally I don't believe there is any one way to play summoner. I think it depends on the individual play style and objectives of the player at any given time.

[Vangoh]

This topic is just way too controversial and frankly there isn't or should be a manual on how to play a job because every single person has their own fighting style.

[Malamasala]

I think I got the most advanced view of the job you can find. So if you got a few moments to read it, here it is.


1. Main job

Summoner as a main job, has only two choices of play style. One is to go up and melee along with your pet, the other is to stand at a safe distance and let your pet do all the work. In other words, there is an active and a passive choice to play. I advocate active play, because I enjoy it.

2. Melee role

The melee role is very similar to PLD, DRK and BLU. Because you have reliance on MP, you'd easily feel the need to be constantly refreshed. But since you have anti-refresh, called perpetuation, the job is more advanced than all of those jobs. You will most certainly need to regain MP from another source than refresh. Spirit Taker, Myrkr, Siphon, Convert are all good ideas to have if you intend on meleeing. Which is why melee is very rare at low levels and new Summoners easily get the impression we do not belong in melee range. When you finally get these tools, you are usually so behind in skill that you'll get the impression that melee will never work.

There are two goals with melee on SMN.
A) To replenish MP
B) To fill up dead time with action

I consider additional damage from melee to be more of a bonus than the actual cause to melee. That is however my opinion with no staff having over 60ish DMG rating among the ones I tend to swing. If I get my hands on an Empyrean I might give a revised opinion, though I won't consider it "standard mage gear" for a Summoner.

3. Armor sets.

My current armor set for meleeing is not that impressive, but it is a work in progress.

Pole Grip: 2% DA
Tiphia Sting: Accuracy +2, Attack +2
Selenian Cap: Accuracy +13, Pet haste +5%
Peacock Charm: Accuracy +10
Brutal Earring: 5% DA, STP+1
Hollow Earring: 2 Dex, Accuracy +3
Caller's Doublet +2: Perp -4
Caller's Bracers +2: Perp halved, Avatar accuracy up
Evoker's Ring: Perp -1
Adler Ring: Accuracy +8, Attack -12
Aesir Mantle: 1% DA, Attack +8
Swift Belt: Accuracy +3, Attack -5, 4% haste
Stearc Subligar: +1 Refresh
Caller's Pgch. +2: Perp -3

Totalish:
-8 Perpetuation + "half of leftovers"
39 Accuracy
7% DA
4% Haste
-7 Attack

Nothing amazing, but it is worth observing it also gives 5% pet haste, and is designed for you to keep the pet out with you for low cost. There is also my "I don't care about perpetuation" set:

Danger Grip: Accuracy +5, Attack +5
Tiphia Sting: Accuracy +2, Attack +2
Hakke hachimaki: Accuracy +17, Attack +5
Peacock Charm: Accuracy +10
Yinyang robe: +1 refresh
Brutal Earring: 5% DA, STP+1
Hollow Earring: 2 Dex, Accuracy +3
Nashira Gages: 1% Haste, Perp -1
Adler Ring: Accuracy +8, Attack -12
Blood Ring: Accuracy +5
Aesir Mantle: 1% DA, Attack +8
Swift Belt: Accuracy +3, Attack -5, 4% haste
Hydra Brais: Accuracy +10
Nashira Crackows: 1% Haste

So totalish:
63 Accuracy
6% Haste
7% DA
3 Attack
-2 Perp

I'm as said, still working on what is a good setup. I'm not sure if 60 accuracy for a B rank weapon with 16 skill from merits is low, ok, or high. But it does work well for skilling up. This could obviously be improved by a better body, better feet and better hands. Less obvious if I should trade some accuracy for DA and haste. (If I ever bought ASA)


Now follows the second half of my Summoner "how to" opinions.

1. Sub jobs

If you don't mind relying on sub job, you can do many weird things that I consider simply un-summoner-like. You can for example sub WHM, keep a haste rotation and cure and -na party members. This is what many people think is the correct way to play, while it is simply ONE way to play.

My argument for it being an unnatural way to play, is that you could do this on other jobs also. BLU/WHM would do the same thing... but you don't see people play this way. DRK/WHM would also work... but you don't see people play this way. (I might be overplaying the potency of aspir for a DRK to go a longer time though.) You can also go PLD/WHM and do this... and again, people don't do this. For some reason BLU's want to melee, DRKs want to melee, and PLDs want to "melee" (but call it tank). Which is why the natural order of things is for a SMN to melee as well, it just suffers from a few issues at early levels, that manifest themselves at later levels.

That said, there is nothing wrong with playing SMN/WHM if you want to. SMN/RDM for keeping a refresh cycle is also allowed. It simply moves the focus from SMN to /XXX.

Some subjobs do however keep the focus on the SMN. Like COR sub to enhance your avatars (mostly useless combination), or SAM sub to gain TP faster while meleeing.

2. WHM the universal subjob

Sometimes it pays to be versatile. With WHM sub you actually do not just open up the choice to be a sub job based healer/support, you also have the option of accessing Cataclysm for dealing AOE melee damage. In addition you also got travel spells for moving around faster.

3. Last words

The most important part is that you like the way you play. After that it is mostly up to if you hang around with people who play for fun, or only play to finish content as fast as possible.

When I empyrean farm with the LS, it is the latter the counts, so no Summoner melee. If it just is some random thing we are doing, I might take the opportunity to whack the mob some. Usually I'm /WHM for versatility, because /SAM is often not flexible enough for my evenings.

[Korpg]

This topic is just way too controversial and frankly there isn't or should be a manual on how to play a job because every single person has their own fighting style.

Think of it like this:

<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
^Got to create some white space so ignore this line right about here. A little more just to ge^
Dallas styleGot to create some white space so ignore this line right about here. A littleRaz style

Your style is always in between the two. Between the two extremes. I find myself:

<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Got to create some white space so ignore this line right about here.^
Got to create some white space so ignore this line right about here.here

I'm very independent, but the few times I am in a party, I'm able to contribute my weight in gold. I mostly solo while I'm a SMN, and I strive to be a great SMN soloist.

[Korpg]

Malamasala is obviously an extreme on the Dallas part of the spectrum.

I don't understand how he is able to keep avatars out and lose the damage from BPs by meleeing and having melee specific atmas on.

But then again, that is what they want. They must do the 2-7k extra damage by meleeing alone by what my avatars do with MAB atmas. And I don't die as often as they do either! And I fight harder NMs too!

[Razushu]

I think I got the most advanced view of the job you can find. So if you got a few moments to read it, here it is.


1. Main job

Summoner as a main job, has only two choices of play style. One is to go up and melee along with your pet, the other is to stand at a safe distance and let your pet do all the work. In other words, there is an active and a passive choice to play. I advocate active play, because I enjoy it.

2. Melee role

The melee role is very similar to PLD, DRK and BLU. Because you have reliance on MP, you'd easily feel the need to be constantly refreshed. But since you have anti-refresh, called perpetuation, the job is more advanced than all of those jobs. You will most certainly need to regain MP from another source than refresh. Spirit Taker, Myrkr, Siphon, Convert are all good ideas to have if you intend on meleeing. Which is why melee is very rare at low levels and new Summoners easily get the impression we do not belong in melee range. When you finally get these tools, you are usually so behind in skill that you'll get the impression that melee will never work.

There are two goals with melee on SMN.
A) To replenish MP
B) To fill up dead time with action

I consider additional damage from melee to be more of a bonus than the actual cause to melee. That is however my opinion with no staff having over 60ish DMG rating among the ones I tend to swing. If I get my hands on an Empyrean I might give a revised opinion, though I won't consider it "standard mage gear" for a Summoner.

3. Armor sets.

My current armor set for meleeing is not that impressive, but it is a work in progress.

Pole Grip: 2% DA
Tiphia Sting: Accuracy +2, Attack +2
Selenian Cap: Accuracy +13, Pet haste +5%
Peacock Charm: Accuracy +10
Brutal Earring: 5% DA, STP+1
Hollow Earring: 2 Dex, Accuracy +3
Caller's Doublet +2: Perp -4
Caller's Bracers +2: Perp halved, Avatar accuracy up
Evoker's Ring: Perp -1
Adler Ring: Accuracy +8, Attack -12
Aesir Mantle: 1% DA, Attack +8
Swift Belt: Accuracy +3, Attack -5, 4% haste
Stearc Subligar: +1 Refresh
Caller's Pgch. +2: Perp -3

Totalish:
-8 Perpetuation + "half of leftovers"
39 Accuracy
7% DA
4% Haste
-7 Attack

Nothing amazing, but it is worth observing it also gives 5% pet haste, and is designed for you to keep the pet out with you for low cost. There is also my "I don't care about perpetuation" set:

Danger Grip: Accuracy +5, Attack +5
Tiphia Sting: Accuracy +2, Attack +2
Hakke hachimaki: Accuracy +17, Attack +5
Peacock Charm: Accuracy +10
Yinyang robe: +1 refresh
Brutal Earring: 5% DA, STP+1
Hollow Earring: 2 Dex, Accuracy +3
Nashira Gages: 1% Haste, Perp -1
Adler Ring: Accuracy +8, Attack -12
Blood Ring: Accuracy +5
Aesir Mantle: 1% DA, Attack +8
Swift Belt: Accuracy +3, Attack -5, 4% haste
Hydra Brais: Accuracy +10
Nashira Crackows: 1% Haste

So totalish:
63 Accuracy
6% Haste
7% DA
3 Attack
-2 Perp

I'm as said, still working on what is a good setup. I'm not sure if 60 accuracy for a B rank weapon with 16 skill from merits is low, ok, or high. But it does work well for skilling up. This could obviously be improved by a better body, better feet and better hands. Less obvious if I should trade some accuracy for DA and haste. (If I ever bought ASA)


Now follows the second half of my Summoner "how to" opinions.

1. Sub jobs

If you don't mind relying on sub job, you can do many weird things that I consider simply un-summoner-like. You can for example sub WHM, keep a haste rotation and cure and -na party members. This is what many people think is the correct way to play, while it is simply ONE way to play.

My argument for it being an unnatural way to play, is that you could do this on other jobs also. BLU/WHM would do the same thing... but you don't see people play this way. DRK/WHM would also work... but you don't see people play this way. (I might be overplaying the potency of aspir for a DRK to go a longer time though.) You can also go PLD/WHM and do this... and again, people don't do this. For some reason BLU's want to melee, DRKs want to melee, and PLDs want to "melee" (but call it tank). Which is why the natural order of things is for a SMN to melee as well, it just suffers from a few issues at early levels, that manifest themselves at later levels.

That said, there is nothing wrong with playing SMN/WHM if you want to. SMN/RDM for keeping a refresh cycle is also allowed. It simply moves the focus from SMN to /XXX.

Some subjobs do however keep the focus on the SMN. Like COR sub to enhance your avatars (mostly useless combination), or SAM sub to gain TP faster while meleeing.

2. WHM the universal subjob

Sometimes it pays to be versatile. With WHM sub you actually do not just open up the choice to be a sub job based healer/support, you also have the option of accessing Cataclysm for dealing AOE melee damage. In addition you also got travel spells for moving around faster.

3. Last words

The most important part is that you like the way you play. After that it is mostly up to if you hang around with people who play for fun, or only play to finish content as fast as possible.

When I empyrean farm with the LS, it is the latter the counts, so no Summoner melee. If it just is some random thing we are doing, I might take the opportunity to whack the mob some. Usually I'm /WHM for versatility, because /SAM is often not flexible enough for my evenings.

You're aware that BLU, DRK and PLD are all frontline DDs this is the "for some reason" you mentioned. You wouldn't usually see a DRK or blu going /whm and healing, because quite frankly they're far more useful as a melee. It's really not the natural order of things for SMN to melee, sure like every other job SMN can get a melee set. However the complete lack of melee traits and overall general squishiness make it less useful in this role, one would say to the point where it wasn't intended to do it much from the get go.

As far as weird things go melee is far weirder than using your subjob to help support yourself/party. The focus only switches to your subjob if you let it. As a support I DD, buff and heal all with my avatars before I even start using my /spells. One could argue that subjob becomes as much a part of the job as the main, and it's foolishness to try to keep them seperate because you want to show melee in a favorable light. Even though while your doing this you're stating all the nice things subjobs give your melee. It's almost like you're biased... almost.

Both styles have their place, there's no sense in claiming to have the most "advanced" view and then skew the argument in favor of your preferred style.

[Razushu]

Think of it like this:

<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
^Got to create some white space so ignore this line right about here. A little more just to ge^
Dallas styleGot to create some white space so ignore this line right about here. A littleRaz style

Your style is always in between the two. Between the two extremes. I find myself:

<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Got to create some white space so ignore this line right about here.^
Got to create some white space so ignore this line right about here.here

I'm very independent, but the few times I am in a party, I'm able to contribute my weight in gold. I mostly solo while I'm a SMN, and I strive to be a great SMN soloist.

Even though I feel I'm right around the same point as you on the scale. I'm going to allow this, because I like you.

Also bolded is what i try for on SMN.

[Malamasala]

Malamasala is obviously an extreme on the Dallas part of the spectrum.

I don't understand how he is able to keep avatars out and lose the damage from BPs by meleeing and having melee specific atmas on.

But then again, that is what they want. They must do the 2-7k extra damage by meleeing alone by what my avatars do with MAB atmas. And I don't die as often as they do either! And I fight harder NMs too!

Nah, I just never have any luck with my pacts for damage. Example:

Atma of the Ultimate
Atma of Hell's Guardian
Atma of the Minikin Monstrosity

Soulscourge
Caller's Horn +2
Eidolon Pendant
Smn. Earring
Gifted Earring
Caller's Doublet +2
Smn. Bracers +1
Evoker's Ring
Diverter's Ring
Caller's Spats +2
Caller's Pgch. +2
Tiresia's cape
Diabolos's Rope (Not had time to do dynamis bastok yet, not that interested in spending 3 mil on AH, even if I have 16 mil I'm not doing anything with)

All of the above, and I usually do 3k damage with my magical nukes on any NM weak to magic, and 1k damage if they are resistant to magic. I'm usually just O_o regarding the results from that gear choice. I've seen 6k, on VT normal mobs, during empyrean armor latent trigger.

Those magical 7k more damage you are doing, I just don't understand. Only guess I can do is that you've lucked out on multiple +3-5 MAB augmented armor pieces, that somehow changed 3k to 12k damage.

Feel free to tell me which armor pieces I'm using wrong for my nukes, or why my +100 MAB atmas isn't giving any results.


--------------

Hmm, kind of noticed there that I'm giving up 2% chance at proc to get more summoning skill in on hands slot. That might be a reason I'm losing some damage, though I can't see how I'd lose more than 3k per pact.

[Malamasala]

It's almost like you're biased... almost.

More like anti-biased. I'm much less pro-melee, than I'm anti-healer. And after I've ruled out healing... melee is what is left on the table.

[Korpg]

Nah, I just never have any luck with my pacts for damage. Example:

Atma of the Ultimate
Atma of Hell's Guardian (Replace with Beyond, and your Heavenly Strike damage will skyrocket, and Gales for Wind Blade)
Atma of the Minikin Monstrosity

Soulscourge
Caller's Horn +2
Eidolon Pendant
Smn. Earring
Gifted Earring
Caller's Doublet +2
Smn. Bracers +1
Evoker's Ring
Diverter's Ring
Caller's Spats +2
Caller's Pgch. +2
Tiresia's cape
Diabolos's Rope (Not had time to do dynamis bastok yet, not that interested in spending 3 mil on AH, even if I have 16 mil I'm not doing anything with)

All of the above, and I usually do 3k damage with my magical nukes on any NM weak to magic, and 1k damage if they are resistant to magic. I'm usually just O_o regarding the results from that gear choice. I've seen 6k, on VT normal mobs, during empyrean armor latent trigger.

Those magical 7k more damage you are doing, I just don't understand. Only guess I can do is that you've lucked out on multiple +3-5 MAB augmented armor pieces, that somehow changed 3k to 12k damage.

Feel free to tell me which armor pieces I'm using wrong for my nukes, or why my +100 MAB atmas isn't giving any results.


--------------

Hmm, kind of noticed there that I'm giving up 2% chance at proc to get more summoning skill in on hands slot. That might be a reason I'm losing some damage, though I can't see how I'd lose more than 3k per pact.

Other than the bolded, your BP gear is kindof like mine, but with some other stuff that I'm not on the game atm to say what.

[Razushu]

More like anti-biased. I'm much less pro-melee, than I'm anti-healer. And after I've ruled out healing... melee is what is left on the table.

Fair enough. although that is biased lol. In between BPs I play support, it usually seems to prove itself too useful and leave me too busy to consider something like melee.

Don't take this the wrong way, this is an honest question no disrespect intended. Why do you play a job that is designed for backline, DD/support(which generally will nclude at least back up healing) when you seem to prefer a melee playstyle? Would a different more powerful, accepted melee job not appeal to you more?

Apologies in advance if this is in any way taken up wrong. I'm merely curious.

[Malamasala]

Other than the bolded, your BP gear is kindof like mine, but with some other stuff that I'm not on the game atm to say what.

Actually I use that. Accidentally mixed it up with the MAB atmas I use for Aeolean Edge. If you happen to find your magic armors, it would be nice to hear it.

[Malamasala]

Don't take this the wrong way, this is an honest question no disrespect intended. Why do you play a job that is designed for backline, DD/support(which generally will nclude at least back up healing) when you seem to prefer a melee playstyle? Would a different more powerful, accepted melee job not appeal to you more?

Well, it is a really funny story.

FF5 made me like the MNK+SMN job combo. Later FFs made me lean towards the SMN job more. It peaked at FF10, where I could control my own pet. So that was what I was hoping for in FF11.

First step was testing the job system. Original idea, re-do the MNK+SMN job combo. Quickly I learned SMN/MNK wouldn't be particularly good. So I was thinking I'll just go for SMN. Much main healing and very little avatars later, PUP came around.

This really threw me for a loop, since PUP was just what I wanted, but with the most ugly pets I've ever seen. But since SE seemed to suggest a C ranker like PUP should melee, then it opened up the idea that then a B ranker like SMN can as well. And it was pretty fun to melee on SMN as well.

I'm still slightly pondering to leech up PUP, but it is so much skilling up involved on pets. But a dat swap on automatons and it would be a pretty good job. It is a shame I don't have a correct dat swap method to get animations right though.



I also prefer more to explore new paths than follow the latest cookie cutter build. Like in Diablo 2 I could attempt to build a Paladin with support focus, instead of the basic Hammerdin for plowing through all monsters. That was a real failure though, since all people on battle.net are "rush rush, ball runs!" so I never really had any to support, and if I did support them it meant I wasn't close to the item drops.

If SE had given me all the facts and jobs from the start though, I believe I would have been a PUP. The most uncertainty with this is that the puppets are so ugly. I picked mithra because it was cutest, picking PUP then is like undoing my first choice.

[Razushu]

Well, it is a really funny story.

FF5 made me like the MNK+SMN job combo. Later FFs made me lean towards the SMN job more. It peaked at FF10, where I could control my own pet. So that was what I was hoping for in FF11.

First step was testing the job system. Original idea, re-do the MNK+SMN job combo. Quickly I learned SMN/MNK wouldn't be particularly good. So I was thinking I'll just go for SMN. Much main healing and very little avatars later, PUP came around.

This really threw me for a loop, since PUP was just what I wanted, but with the most ugly pets I've ever seen. But since SE seemed to suggest a C ranker like PUP should melee, then it opened up the idea that then a B ranker like SMN can as well. And it was pretty fun to melee on SMN as well.

I'm still slightly pondering to leech up PUP, but it is so much skilling up involved on pets. But a dat swap on automatons and it would be a pretty good job. It is a shame I don't have a correct dat swap method to get animations right though.



I also prefer more to explore new paths than follow the latest cookie cutter build. Like in Diablo 2 I could attempt to build a Paladin with support focus, instead of the basic Hammerdin for plowing through all monsters. That was a real failure though, since all people on battle.net are "rush rush, ball runs!" so I never really had any to support, and if I did support them it meant I wasn't close to the item drops.

If SE had given me all the facts and jobs from the start though, I believe I would have been a PUP. The most uncertainty with this is that the puppets are so ugly. I picked mithra because it was cutest, picking PUP then is like undoing my first choice.

The PUP C rank was a serious F' up though, I think SE thought people would accept a PUP based solely on their automaton.

I'd level PUP if I we're you. I'm not saying GTFO SMN you crazy meleeing fool. Just from what little I know of you and what I know of PUP I think you'd love it. Ugly pets aside, although PUP armor looks nice on Mithras.

My friends keep suggesting it to me saying "it's SMN but a melee". Which I always found weird because I've said since day one that I find melee boring lol.

Avoiding the cookie cutter is what got me into SMN in the first place. I liked the idea of SMN from other FFs, it really seemed like the job for me. Then I found out it wasn't very popular with other players, and my stubbornn streak kicked inXD

[Malamasala]

Just from what little I know of you and what I know of PUP I think you'd love it.

The selling point is definitely H2H. The only weapon type I consider interesting. And don't let any PUP tell you they should have gotten Alexander... that dat swap just fills your screen so much that it is annoying.

[Razushu]

The selling point is definitely H2H. The only weapon type I consider interesting. And don't let any PUP tell you they should have gotten Alexander... that dat swap just fills your screen so much that it is annoying.

What?! They're saying that?

[Tarage]

Summoner is a support job. We cure, we buff, and we assist in DD. We are a versatile job that can solo, but we are not designed to be heavy DD, nor are we designed to be all support.

There's nothing more to say.

[Dallas]

A whole thread devoted to hating me because they haven't posted thousands of times in every other thread. Awesome!

There is only one playstyle. Everyone bragging about playing half the job is also dealing half the damage. What do they have to show for it? A few fights that no one is dumb enough to melee.

I say 99% is melee-able. They say 1% is melee-able. The difference is skill, with the higher damage always going to the melee SMN.

[Tarage]

A whole thread devoted to hating me because they haven't posted thousands of times in every other thread. Awesome!

There is only one playstyle. Everyone bragging about playing half the job is also dealing half the damage. What do they have to show for it? A few fights that no one is dumb enough to melee.

I say 99% is melee-able. They say 1% is melee-able. The difference is skill, with the higher damage always going to the melee SMN.

You have quite the ego buddy. Not once did I mention you. I don't care how well you DD as a melee SMN, you're still doing it wrong.

Seriously, you must be one sad fellow if you feel the need to puff yourself on a forum like this.

[Secondplanet]

i see smn as a job that no one can write a guide on cause its really a job that is invented by the player using it, the more of an imagination you have the more options you can find in this job, from tanking NM's/mobs when needed to helping the party in a time of need, this job can allow a person who knows it well to play almost any roll even if for only a brief moment and in this game a brief moment most times can mean the difference between winning and losing.

[Dallas]

You have quite the ego buddy. Not once did I mention you. I don't care how well you DD as a melee SMN, you're still doing it wrong.

Seriously, you must be one sad fellow if you feel the need to puff yourself on a forum like this.
Here's a helpful hint: I'm not looking for any tips how to play the job worse. Troll all you want, at no point will I be acknowledging your playstyle as anything but a subset of mine.

[Tarage]

Here's a helpful hint: I'm not looking for any tips how to play the job worse. Troll all you want, at no point will I be acknowledging your playstyle as anything but a subset of mine.

It's cute that you think I'm a troll. Are you so far gone that you don't believe that people don't look at you in awe? That perhaps the pedestal you have placed yourself upon is a creation of your own inflated ego?

[Razushu]

It's cute that you think I'm a troll. Are you so far gone that you don't believe that people don't look at you in awe? That perhaps the pedestal you have placed yourself upon is a creation of your own inflated ego?

Not just his, his mommy tells him he's special every morning.

[Karbuncle]

Figured I'd throw my 2 cents in here!

As already mentioned theres 2 sides to SMN, one is commonly and easily accepted due to general bias of 2005 style gameplay (SMN mage), and one is more harshly criticized and rarely accepted due to 2005 Style gameplay (SMN Melee)

The biggest problem with SMN melee is that, even with a B Skill, We lack the proper acc/atk to do decent damage, and even more-so we lack great weaponry, staves are literally the worst weapon class in the game for damage, behind even clubs/Hammers.

But theres another side to that. IN Abyssea a lot of our Weaknesses can be made up for via Atma and Cruor buffs, like our Low HP, STR, and DEX. Using atma's like VV/RR/Apoc help balance out our TP Gain (Regain+2), Our STR, and our Damage through crits, while also effecting our pets (BPs like PC, FC, and Ramuh's)

This really only works on mobs and NMs that do not possess devastating AoEs, or AoE magics like Paralyga or Silencega, for Obvious reasons, and the key to an intelligent Melee SMN is to know which fights would be more productive melee, and which would be more productive Mage.

-----------------------------=====================================

Now on the Mage side.

The Mage aspect of SMN comes from its support job, WHM or SCH. The biggest problem with Mage role is that Cure IV rarely cuts it these days, and any WHM should already be doing this task, better than you. SMN mage-Aspect really only works if you're with crummy mages, or are the single mage in your party.

Cure IV's, and -Na spells are nice, And we have a slew of Defensive Support Bloodpacts like Earthern Armor, Hastega, Healing Ruby II, etc.

Problem is a lot of our Unique buffs (Stoneskin-ga, Blink-ga, etc) are being spread about to other jobs via SCH and /SCH. Which makes SMN use a lot of its uniqueness and SE is not really giving it back to us. Earthern Armor is similar to Sentinal's Scherzo, ergo not unique (though they do stack)... Hastega is our only true unique Buff still, even then its nothing a Haste-Cycle can't accomplish.

Both aspect of the jobs roles are based on archaic 2005 gameplay styles that stuck with a community reluctant to change, both have positives, and both are flawed in some ways.

when it boils down to it, the SMN job is flawed itself, Masters of none and Mediocre at all doesn't really translate well in an MMO, why bring SMN when xxx job does xxx better? etc.

Our one true mastery is Hateless Damage, and its that, similar to THFs TH, that has kept the job mediocre over the years. Its the same reason Elemental WS's are generally Weak, SE has an undying need to balance a job so hard it becomes useless.

Elemental Weaponskills have 100% accuracy, therefor they mostly suck and are unusable dribble, in the same light, SMNs Avatars provide Hateless spike damage, as such we lack any other meaningful aspect to the job.

Luckily for us, Fights where our hateless ranged damage is vastly useful (Voidwatch) are coming back to light. The SMN job is nice in a lot of ways, But it needs work.

[Tarage]

"It works in Abyssea" is a poor argument, because lots of silly things work in Abyssea. Abyssea is the exception, not the rule.

[Karbuncle]

"It works in Abyssea" is a poor argument, because lots of silly things work in Abyssea. Abyssea is the exception, not the rule.

Everyone in the game knows this >_>

[Dallas]

I love the "only in Abyssea" excuse. No one is allowed to talk about the 8 years of L75 content, obviously. Those Grounds items? Nope, we'll call them "trash mobs."

"The ONLY way to play SMN is the one that is justified by the few NM in Voidwatch. Oh, and we're going to immediately deny the existance of Voidwatch the instant it becomes zergable. Just like Abyssea."

There's an awful lot of exceptions to a really worthless rule. I wish people posted in job forums proportionately to the amount of time they play the job. We wouldn't see the Voidwatch only crew again until November.

[Lordscyon]

Have full refresh buffs and you can have your pet out for days!
for Summoner NO MP= No Love

[Bubeeky]

I like playing summoner from the back, pickin' my favorite avatar at the moment and watchin' sparks fly...then again, my main is whm, and smn is more like a hobby, only to be used rarely for serious events lol

[Arciel]

I love the "only in Abyssea" excuse. No one is allowed to talk about the 8 years of L75 content, obviously. Those Grounds items? Nope, we'll call them "trash mobs."

"The ONLY way to play SMN is the one that is justified by the few NM in Voidwatch. Oh, and we're going to immediately deny the existance of Voidwatch the instant it becomes zergable. Just like Abyssea."

There's an awful lot of exceptions to a really worthless rule. I wish people posted in job forums proportionately to the amount of time they play the job. We wouldn't see the Voidwatch only crew again until November.

You can go back to your cave, silly Lv1 RDM troll.
Voidwatch has always been zergable. People don't do it because they build lights.

For that matter, SMN is great because they can keep up damage without TP, without hate issues and without the resist issues most jobs are beginning to face again because they don't have extreme Atma-level buffs to back them up.

Still, regardless of whether you zerg or hold Voidwatch NMs to build lights, theres no place for a melee SMN in there.

[RAIST]

I would have to say this thread has gotten the most bang-for-the-buck from Karbuncle's 2-cents.

It really all boils down to the playstyle you and your friends feel most comfortable using. I would hazard a guess I am most versatile on SMN out of all my jobs, except maybe NIN. With 240 slots to carry crap, I am a virtual walking armory and am able to swap out gears to change my role quite easily. Couple that with all the macro banks at our disposal now, it's not too hard to swap gears out to try to optimise your better WS.

I have a small group I do a lot of stuff with, 3 of us have SMN leveled. When it becomes necessary, I usually get the honor of going into full battlemage mode as I have the most gear to support that role and still maintain 1 or 2 mp refresh as SMN/WHM with no refresher and no Favor, while the others will take the more traditional BP and support roles. It works well for us. I can set up the skillchain for someone else to close, then the avatars can burst off it.

Again... it's all really situational and according to what you are most comfortable with and prepared to do. Just because it traditionally has been seen as a backline, stay away from danger type of job, that doesn't mean that is the only way to play it--just means that is how most people chose to play it based on the situations they were faced with.

[Secondplanet]

Raist i'm glad to see another smn such as yourself who doesn't categorize this job between 2 different play styles, i posted earlier in the board but got drowned out for bickering that had nothing to do with the topic on hand which doesn't surprise me with these boards. Thats why i say you can't write a guide for how to play this job when this very job is a creation is made by the player using it.

[Draylo]

How to play summoner:

Astral flow > Alexander > finished.

[Korpg]

How to play summoner:

Astral flow > Alexander > finished.

Ask a BLU how to play SMN, and this is what you get.

[Karbuncle]

How to play BLU

Nation > Mog house > Change jobs

I can be sarcastic too

[Korpg]

How to play BLU

Nation > Mog house > Change jobs

I can be sarcastic too

But what about yellow procs!!?!?!

[Draylo]

How to play BLU

Nation > Mog house > Change jobs

I can be sarcastic too

O hell naw

[Dallas]

You can go back to your cave, silly Lv1 RDM troll.
Voidwatch has always been zergable.

SMN is great because they can keep up damage without TP

What is the purpose of "without TP" when VW is zergable? Seems to me a zerging SMN would shame you out of existance. Choose your lies more carefully.

[Korpg]

What is the purpose of "without TP" when VW is zergable? Seems to me a zerging SMN would shame you out of existance. Choose your lies more carefully.

Wait, you melee zerg as SMN now?

[Arciel]

What is the purpose of "without TP" when VW is zergable? Seems to me a zerging SMN would shame you out of existance. Choose your lies more carefully.

Like i said, VW is zergable but people DO NOT zerg it because they aim for higher spectrum alignment.
The purpose people do Voidwatch for is primarily its items, and for some cruor/exp, but in all cases, they benefit from spectrum alignment so people always do this because it multiplies the rewards / chances of rewards in the process.
You clearly don't know this because you don't do it.

Why I say SMN is great for keeping up damage without using TP is because the TP can be stored or reserved for WS procs, which is a fact of how Voidwatch usually works. All jobs, including SMN, will also be holding their TP until they can use it to proc on something. Melees typically do not engage and are relegated to the sidelines where they /SAM and get Tacticians Rolls for TP gain, otherwise they only melee until they have sufficient TP and then stay out of melee range for safety.

As such, the most effective DDs are SMN, BLM and RNG for their ability to deal strong dmg either from range or in relative safety. But SMN is the most effective of the 3 because it can deal damage from a safe distance, never accumulates hate that it will become a potential issue, is capable of dealing both physical and magical damage, and avatars can even take a few hits after pulling hate.

If ignorance is your best argument, better not to use it.

[Dallas]

I told you to choose your lies more carefully. It's like the WAR trying to convince us that anyone lets their 1-trick pony job zerg anything in Abyssea but Chloris. SMN only deals measurable damage in VW because a real DD isn't even present. Don't insult DD by thinking anyone ranks your BP/release at all.

[Tannlore]

Atma of Hell's Guardian (Replace with Beyond, and your Heavenly Strike damage will skyrocket, and Gales for Wind Blade)

Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't true. Was there not a post a while back that did research into this very point and proved without a doubt that MAB Superior > Element Major > INT Superior.

Here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2444-SMN-Atmas/page3

My gear setup for Magical BPs is:
Shareeravadi +2 (pet: MAB+12)
Vox Grip
Caller's Horn +2
Eidolon Pendant
Royal Redingot with MAB +7
Tierstria's cape
Smn Bracers
Caller's Sash
Caller's Spats +2
Zenith Pumps (pet MAB +3)
Evoker's Ring
Frevor Ring
Gifted Earring
Caller's Earring


Atmas: Ultimate, MM, Hell's Guardian.

I don't get anything like 7k Heavenly strikes even when I switch in Beyond in place of Ultimate or HG. Not sure how some people get these massive numbers I'm reading on the forums for their Magical BPs and I've been a fan of them for years.

Any chance I can see your setup here or on the server since we play on the same one? I'd be interested to party up and compare numbers and techniques. Always fun to have another smn who knows what they are doing to bounce ideas off of.


Diabolos's Rope (Not had time to do dynamis bastok yet, not that interested in spending 3 mil on AH, even if I have 16 mil I'm not doing anything with)

Malamasala, I'm curious which belt you are referring to that drops in dyna Bastok that will boost your avatar's magic dmg? Is it better than Caller's Sash?

[Korpg]

Dallas, I think you are just jelly that a WAR can deal 11k damage from a WS they got 100% TP from in less than 3 seconds.

So, lets figure that out, you get 300% TP in, what, 100 seconds. I get 100% TP in 3 seconds. Assuming that I'm fighting a mob(s) that won't die in less than 100 seconds, I deal, what, 336k damage from WS alone. Hypothetically of course. No mob out there would last that long, specially junk mobs that you can melee.

Can you deal that much damage in that amount of time though?

[Korpg]

Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't true. Was there not a post a while back that did research into this very point and proved without a doubt that MAB Superior > Element Major > INT Superior.

Here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2444-SMN-Atmas/page3

My gear setup for Magical BPs is:
Shareeravadi +2 (pet: MAB+12)
Vox Grip
Caller's Horn +2
Eidolon Pendant
Royal Redingot with MAB +7
Tierstria's cape
Smn Bracers
Caller's Sash
Caller's Spats +2
Zenith Pumps (pet MAB +3)
Evoker's Ring
Frevor Ring
Gifted Earring
Caller's Earring


Atmas: Ultimate, MM, Hell's Guardian.

I don't get anything like 7k Heavenly strikes even when I switch in Beyond in place of Ultimate or HG. Not sure how some people get these massive numbers I'm reading on the forums for their Magical BPs and I've been a fan of them for years.

Any chance I can see your setup here or on the server since we play on the same one? I'd be interested to party up and compare numbers and techniques. Always fun to have another smn who knows what they are doing to bounce ideas off of.

Well, I made a mistake, thanks for pointing that out. I should have said switch out Minkin for Beyond/Gales instead of Hell's Guardian.




Malamasala, I'm curious which belt you are referring to that drops in dyna Bastok that will boost your avatar's magic dmg? Is it better than Caller's Sash?

I believe he is saying that avatar attack bonus belt you can buy from AH or farm it in Dynamis-Bastok.

[Tannlore]

Well, I made a mistake, thanks for pointing that out. I should have said switch out Minkin for Beyond/Gales instead of Hell's Guardian.




I believe he is saying that avatar attack bonus belt you can buy from AH or farm it in Dynamis-Bastok.

No prob :) I made the same mistake myself until I came onto that very post. I found it quite helpful. As for the belt, I see it now. Most interesting! Hmm.. needs more testing. Might finally replace my augmented acc/atk belt I've had since ACP came out. Thanks for the info.

[Malamasala]

Why I say SMN is great for keeping up damage without using TP is because the TP can be stored or reserved for WS procs, which is a fact of how Voidwatch usually works. All jobs, including SMN, will also be holding their TP until they can use it to proc on something.

I'm still annoyed at it only saying "Blood pacts" as a hint. Well, yea, I only have 50 of them, thanks for the hint. Might as well say "Weapon skills" or "Magic" for trigger hints. I seriously think SE needs to change this to "Shiva pacts" and such in description, but the problem is that it would create 9 categories for SMN only, and make SMN THE most important VW job.

I think a better system would be if only 70 and 75 pacts can proc. That is just 12 pacts to try, which is more similar to all the dagger WSes or all the Sword WSes.

[Arciel]

Avatar BPs happen to be the most problematic blue proc because of that, and also because of the timer. If you've only got 1 SMN, well.. good luck i guess , but most people have more.

This makes it kinda similar to the magic procs, which are elementally divided and each category is like some 25 spells or so.
But I agree either they should specify the avatar or narrow the BP pool that can proc.