[DEV1234]Lift the delay/haste cap

[Taint2]

With every other "cap" lifted like crit,crit damage,fast cast etc. Its time to get rid of the 80% cap on delay reduction. This will help out a number of jobs from the buffers (COR,BRD,Hasters,DNC) to all the DDs that can break the 80 mark. When the 80 cap was implemented FFXI was a very different game. 5k WS were unheard of (let alone the 10k plus ones) DoT was a major factor and zerging was a common strat. Now that things have changed its time for to lift the overall cap. Individual caps should be kept, 25 in gear, 25 in JA, 43.3 in magic etc.

[Korpg]

With every other "cap" lifted like crit,crit damage,fast cast etc. Its time to get rid of the 80% cap on delay reduction. This will help out a number of jobs from the buffers (COR,BRD,Hasters,DNC) to all the DDs that can break the 80 mark. When the 80 cap was implemented FFXI was a very different game. 5k WS were unheard of (let alone the 10k plus ones) DoT was a major factor and zerging was a common strat. Now that things have changed its time for to lift the overall cap. Individual caps should be kept, 25 in gear, 25 in JA, 43.3 in magic etc.

Why not ask for brews 100% of the time.

Cap at 80% is fine as is. If you want cap to be at 100+%, then what's stopping you from asking for 300% TP all the time, because that is what you are going to get....

[Elexia]

Yeah, give us Brews with ISP, AN and CP while we're at it.

[hiko]

yes give DRK 100% haste with their new JA that inhibit TP gain (since with100% haste the 2sec delay after WS will be a bigger lost in dmg than not wsing)

[Korpg]

Hundred Fists for everyone! Nothing will survive longer than the time it takes to engage!

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[Elexia]

yes give DRK 100% haste with their new JA that inhibit TP gain (since with100% haste the 2sec delay after WS will be a bigger lost in dmg than not wsing)

This would actually be a good adjustment for DRK.

[Zagen]

Hundred Fists for everyone! Nothing will survive longer than the time it takes to engage!

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]
Hundred Fist floors delay to cap at 80% attack haste that's why MNKs don't use it in a zerg with proper buffs...

In other words we can already do this.

[Cream_Soda]

yes give DRK 100% haste with their new JA that inhibit TP gain (since with100% haste the 2sec delay after WS will be a bigger lost in dmg than not wsing)
Not really, the mob would be dead far before you ever even get the chance to consider ws'ing, lol. 100% haste is infinite attacks.

You'd spend more time engaging and disengaging than doing anything else, lol

[Alukat]

With every other "cap" lifted like crit,crit damage,fast cast etc. Its time to get rid of the 80% cap on delay reduction. This will help out a number of jobs from the buffers (COR,BRD,Hasters,DNC) to all the DDs that can break the 80 mark. When the 80 cap was implemented FFXI was a very different game. 5k WS were unheard of (let alone the 10k plus ones) DoT was a major factor and zerging was a common strat. Now that things have changed its time for to lift the overall cap. Individual caps should be kept, 25 in gear, 25 in JA, 43.3 in magic etc.

haha xD

you're saying ws doing much more dmg, so to keep up the balance haste would need to be reduced not increased :x

[Byrth]

Forgive me if I'm misinterpretting, but I doubt he's proposing that we remove category caps. He's suggesting that we lift the 80% overall delay reduction limit.

25%+43.3%+25% = 93.3% final cap. DRK is the only job that can hit it, and they can hit it while keeping Seigan up with only one other player (BRD/WHM).
SAM is second closest with ~90%, but they require at least two other players.
Other 2H DDs are is limited to ~88.3%, and they require at least two other players.
Other 1H DDs are limited to ~78.3%, but they often get a unique form of delay reduction. 1-2 other players required.

Assuming they were equal before:
21.7/6.7 = DRK's DPS is 3.2 times higher than a 1H DD before-DW/MA. 50% DW for the 1H DD makes it a more even fight, but DRK still gets a 60% boost over them.
11.7/6.7 = DRK's DPS is 1.75 times higher than a non-SAM 2H DD.

So totally uncapping overall delay would create bad balance issues. DRK would become the only DD.

Raising the overall delay cap to 90% would create game balance issues (Jump and Steps would be worthless due to JA delay and everything would be zergable because we'd be doing twice as much damage), but jobs would still be pretty balanced.

[wish12oz]

Think about it like this, if your delay is 100, then in 100 you get 1 swing, if you add 80% haste, you now swing at 20, so you get 5 attacks in 100, if your haste was 90, you now attack at 10, meaning you get 10 attacks instead of 1 in 100. moving from 80 to 90 haste moves you from doing five times your normal damage to ten times your normal damage. This is sort of ridiculous and why SE capped it at 80% after the introduction of desperate blows when rune chopper DRK was just plain crazy. Asking for it to be higher than 80% is just stupid.

[RabidSquirrel]

Not really, the mob would be dead far before you ever even get the chance to consider ws'ing, lol. 100% haste is infinite attacks.

You'd spend more time engaging and disengaging than doing anything else, lol

I'd be willing to bet 100% isn't infinite. It all depends on if they allow more than one attack via auto-attack per frame, which I doubt they do.

[Taint2]

Its not trolling, its a legitimate request. It was uncapped for most of the games existence. The 80 cap is too restrictive as it stands. Hell make it 85% but leaving it alone will continue to make DoT jobs fall behind the jobs that can equal them in delay reduction.

[wish12oz]

It was uncapped for most of the games existence.

It was uncapped and you couldn't reach it until desperate blows.

[CrystalWeapon]

I'd be willing to bet 100% isn't infinite. It all depends on if they allow more than one attack via auto-attack per frame, which I doubt they do.

100% haste would indeed be infinite. The % is subtracted from your delay. If you take say 6 seconds to swing, at 80% haste you would take 1.2 seconds to swing. Which would be as stated earlier 5x your normal actions at 80% haste. At 90% you would take 0.6 seconds to swing. 10x your normal actions. The haste formula is one that approaches infinity the closer you get to 100.

If you took 0 seconds to swing it would be nonstop actions and the mob would die in an instant. If you imposed a restriction on how often an autoattack can initiate say 0.1 seconds is the lowest it could possibly go, then it's not truely 100%. For the 6 second swing example you would only have aprox. 98.3% haste, so it would never truely be 100%.

[hiko]

mistake
1231

[Taint2]

It was uncapped and you couldn't reach it until desperate blows.

Sure, I was one of the few that ever got to swing Apoc at 93.3, it was game breaking at the time. 24k damage to kirin in 25 seconds back in 07. Haste is the most important stat/buff in this game. If every job can cap it then there is only room for the jobs that A) WS the most B) Take the most swings per round. 1 hand jobs are already taking a beating and it will continue to get worse. There is very little reason for an alliance to be made up of all WARs for damage, the delay cap is a big part of that reason.

[Taint2]

It was uncapped and you couldn't reach it until desperate blows.

Sure, I was one of the few that ever got to swing Apoc at 93.3, it was game breaking at the time. 24k damage to kirin in 25 seconds back in 07. Haste is the most important stat/buff in this game. If every job can cap it then there is only room for the jobs that A) WS the most B) Take the most swings per round. 1 hand jobs are already taking a beating and it will continue to get worse. There is very little reason for an alliance not to be made up of all WARs for damage, the delay cap is a big part of that reason.

[Alhanelem]

Haste should be capped further, not lifted. I'm sick of haste being the end all only important stat to have in games.


If you took 0 seconds to swing it would be nonstop actions and the server would crash.
fixed

[Cream_Soda]

Then play games that don't have haste at all.

[Malacite]

tl;dr

Brief History Lesson: The cap used to be 90%, back just a bit before ToAU I believe is when they finally nerfed it down to 80%. This was when you had Relic DRK and WAR/DRK with Rune Choppers doing nuts with haste, attacking at 10x normal speed.

Yeah that's right, that last 10% doubles your attack rounds from 5 to 10. That's why they lowered it to 80, and why it's never going back. QQ moar.

[Alhanelem]

Then play games that don't have haste at all.
All online games should have no haste at all on equipment.

[Supersun]

All online games should have no haste at all on equipment.

Haste isn't inherently bad.

It's only the god stat when they create a crappy formula where it's an exponential function.

Seriously, is 1/X that hard?

[Cream_Soda]

All online games should have no haste at all on equipment.
There shouldn't be any stats on equipment at all bro! They should be just for looks!

[Alhanelem]

It was uncapped and you couldn't reach it until desperate blows.


There shouldn't be any stats on equipment at all bro! They should be just for looks!
All other stats are fine. Haste is not, because it automatically makes all other stats irrelevant unless the limit on it is low enough that anyone and everyone can achieve it, at which point it's pointless to have in the first place.

I've yet to see anyone find a way to balance haste so that it's not the only stat that anoyne tries to attain and max.

[Cream_Soda]

because it automatically makes all other stats irrelevant Not at all. Accuracy is another huge stat. Just because it's easier to cap doesn't make it any less important.

Back when acc wasn't auto capped from all the dex you get from razed ruins and cruor buffs, things like ace's helm were capable of beating turban, depending on the situation. Toreador's over blitz as well (provided that your acc was high enough to be at/very close to cap w/ said item and not low enough to where it'd you'd just need to be eating pizza instead of meat)


so that it's not the only stat that anoyne tries to attain and max.
Not that anyone has to try, but acc is definitely something you're going to want maxed and if mobs were given higher eva, or even in things like voidwatch, it very much becomes something you try to max once again.

[Alhanelem]

In Abyssea, nobody has a problem with accuracy. Not even lolmeleeSMN.

[Supersun]

I've yet to see anyone find a way to balance haste so that it's not the only stat that anoyne tries to attain and max.

Really not hard.

Haste is only exponential because it affects delay which itself is a rate if attack speed more specifically in the denominator.

If 50% haste instead of reducing the denominator of your function by half which in essence doubles the numerator just increased the numerator by 50% then it's no longer exponential and +1% haste pretty much gives +1% damage which is much closer to what other stats give.

So like I said earlier is 1/x really that hard?

[Zagen]

In Abyssea, nobody has a problem with accuracy. Not even lolmeleeSMN.

Good thing Abyssea is over and you'll have to leave to do new things...

[Cream_Soda]

In Abyssea, nobody has a problem with accuracy. Not even lolmeleeSMN.
It doesn't mean it's not an important stat.

If you every job could cap haste just as easily, it wouldn't make haste any less important or vital.

[Alhanelem]

Good thing Abyssea is over and you'll have to leave to do new things...
Abyssea the place and gameplay mechanic isn't over. Only the story is.


If you every job could cap haste just as easily, it wouldn't make haste any less important or vital. It absolutely does make it less important. If it's safe to assume that everyone has all the haste they can get on their own, then it becomes trivialized. Everyone having something is almost the same as it not existing at all. Thus, people can focus on other stats, because they are attacking as fast as they ever will.

[Zagen]

Abyssea the place and gameplay mechanic isn't over. Only the story is.
Dunno about you but I plan to work on bettering myself gear/spells/skill/etc. wise for the new content at 95 and 99 not for Abyssea when I'm 95 and 99.

[wish12oz]

Good thing Abyssea is over and you'll have to leave to do new things...

I dunno about you guys, but all I have left to do in abyssea is work on empyrean weapons for jobs I will never play, I'm only missing 2 or 3 pieces of +2 for all 11 or 12 of my jobs, even though I only play 3, and wish I could only play 2.

[Alhanelem]

It was uncapped and you couldn't reach it until desperate blows.
OK, i'm not kidding- Why does the above quote keep getting appended to my posts in this thread? I didn't paste it there, I didn't click quote on this post, but it keeps showing up...



Dunno about you but I plan to work on bettering myself gear/spells/skill/etc. wise for the new content at 95 and 99 not for Abyssea when I'm 95 and 99.
Dunno about you but I'm sure a lot of people will still have plenty of reason to be in abyssea when the cap is 95 and 99.

Will there be new content after 90? Of course there will be. Will Abyssea suddenly be obsolete? No, it won't. Take a look at Voidwatch, it borrows many of Abyssea's mechanics.

[Zagen]

OK, i'm not kidding- Why does the above quote keep getting appended to my posts in this thread? I didn't paste it there, I didn't click quote on this post, but it keeps showing up...



Dunno about you but I'm sure a lot of people will still have plenty of reason to be in abyssea when the cap is 95 and 99.
Having a reason to be in there doesn't mean it is what you use as a benchmark for your gear choices.

[Alhanelem]

It was uncapped and you couldn't reach it until desperate blows.


Having a reason to be in there doesn't mean it is what you use as a benchmark for your gear choices.
Who said it was or that I did?

[Zagen]

Who said it was or that I did?
You implied it by saying this:

In Abyssea, nobody has a problem with accuracy. Not even lolmeleeSMN.
And then following it up with this:

Dunno about you but I'm sure a lot of people will still have plenty of reason to be in abyssea when the cap is 95 and 99.
After I mentioned Abyssea is done and new content for 95 and 99 wouldn't be in abyssea.

Outside of Abyssea where content for 95 and 99 will be and RR/Cruor Buffs won't be ACC will likely become an issue again and giving up some haste slots for ACC gear might be needed, the same can be said about other stats depending on a given job.

[Alhanelem]

Just because "new content won't be in abyssea" doesn't mean that abyssea itself will no longer be of significance or importance. You say "abysssea is done" as if we suddenly won't be doing it anymore.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Just because "new content won't be in abyssea" doesn't mean that abyssea itself will no longer be of significance or importance. You say "abysssea is done" as if we suddenly won't be doing it anymore.It happened to TAU, WOG and COP. But, abyssea WILL always be there as people will always be levling new jobs and getting new weapons and gear for those jobs. It's now what sky/dynamis used to be.

[Alhanelem]

It happened to TAU, WOG and COP.WOTG isn't any more obsolete now than it ever was, and Abyssea REQUIRES WotG. Not that WotG itself is just a single peice of content.

Walk of echoes isn't obsolete (any more than it was when it came out, at least), and will be updated in the future.

Assault was not made obsolete by the next piece of content that came out (salvage), nor was einherjar.

Limbus was not made obsolete by the next piece of content that came out either.

Nothing at all was made obsolete until the level cap was raised, and even then, not everything to do with the expansions you listed was made obsolete. Abyssea will not be made obsolete by 95 or 99, unless and until another JSE armor tier is added.

[Zagen]

Just because "new content won't be in abyssea" doesn't mean that abyssea itself will no longer be of significance or importance. You say "abysssea is done" as if we suddenly won't be doing it anymore.
Abyssea isn't of significant importance now when it comes to gear why should it be a benchmark at 95 or 99 for anyone?

That's like telling a BLM once you hit 320 Elemental Skill and 120 INT you're good to go for Voidwatch because that was the "benchmark" for Sky.

Haste is king inside Abyssea because Atma/Cruor make up for the rest, outside Abyssea you aren't rocking +40-70 all stats naked.

[Yokoh]

Hundred Fists for everyone! Nothing will survive longer than the time it takes to engage!

Posting in a troll thread!

haha i like this! :) currently doing the multi-strike magian for my PUP H2H, 2-4 hit (along with double attack making it 2-8) i will be like a hundred fist MNK 24/7! :P haha

[Alhanelem]

Abyssea isn't of significant importance now when it comes to gear why should it be a benchmark at 95 or 99 for anyone?Oh really? For many jobs it offers a lot of the best gear in the game. When did this change?


Haste is king inside Abyssea because Atma/Cruor make up for the rest, outside Abyssea you aren't rocking +40-70 all stats naked. Assuming reasonable amounts of accuracy, haste is the primo number 1 kickass stat for everyone that ever swings a weapon everywhere, not just in Abyssea. It shouldn't be that way, but it pretty much is. You don't need atma/cruor buffs for haste to be the best stat to maximize.

[Zagen]

Oh really? For many jobs it offers a lot of the best gear in the game. When did this change?
~_~ Inside Abyssea my naked WAR/SAM Caps ACC with Cruor + RR... Thus gear inside isn't relevant because it will give me minimal gains(aside from Haste) because inside Abyssea I'm a demi-god naked... add in the best gear and I'm a slightly better demi-god. Outside Abyssea that's a very different story.

The gear you can get in Abyssea has nothing to do with using Abyssea NMs as a benchmark in the future. Yes that gear could be used in a given benchmark but the 2 things are independent.

Edit: My WAR caps on trash mobs not everything before someone takes the statement overboard.

[Zagen]

Assuming reasonable amounts of accuracy, haste is the primo number 1 kickass stat for everyone that ever swings a weapon everywhere, not just in Abyssea. It shouldn't be that way, but it pretty much is. You don't need atma/cruor buffs for haste to be the best stat to maximize.
And if you Accuracy isn't over 80% you'd be better off with ACC over Haste in a lot of slots. Depending on the job. This is something that will come up outside Abyssea.

Edit: If your swings are landing for 0-10 damage you'd better look into STR/ATK over haste. hitting for 0 80% faster does nothing for your TP gain.

[Alhanelem]

Edit: If your swings are landing for 0-10 damage you'd better look into STR/ATK over haste. hitting for 0 80% faster does nothing for your TP gain.I couldn't agree more, but in the vast majority of all situations, everyone constantly sings the praises of haste and looks down on you if you don't have the maximum amount of haste possible.


~_~ Inside Abyssea my naked WAR/SAM Caps ACC with Cruor + RR... Thus gear inside isn't relevant because it will give me minimal gains(aside from Haste) because inside Abyssea I'm a demi-god naked...How does you being amazing naked have anything to do with this gear or that gear being the best gear or not?

So I can one shot Abyssean trash mobs with victory smite. Does that mean that the gear I get in there is not the best, just because I'm already "strong enough" ?

[wish12oz]

When people say Abyssea is over, they are not saying there is nothing there worth doing or having. What they are saying is, if you have a competent group, within 3-4 months everyone should have everything useful for every job they like playing and you can quit going there. Any competent group that started with even the Heros release is currently struggling to find stuff to do, or everyone has 4-5 empyreans and counting.

[Zagen]

How does you being amazing naked have anything to do with this gear or that gear being the best gear or not?

So I can one shot Abyssean trash mobs with victory smite. Does that mean that the gear I get in there is not the best, just because I'm already "strong enough" ?

If you're aiming for the "best" inside abyssea as your goal when there are harder things in the game right now then yes the gear you get isn't of value in there. With or without Tantra set +2 you could 1 shot a lot of mobs inside abyssea, with or without it you could do a lot of damage to NMs inside abyssea. Because of Cruor and Atma the difference between an Sky MNK and a Tantra MNK isn't huge. The Tantra MNK would win but not by a drastic lead. That's my point as to why Abyssea is a bad event to use as a Benchmark.

[Alhanelem]

If you're aiming for the "best" inside abyssea as your goal when there are harder things in the game right now then yes the gear you get isn't of value in there.It's not a question of "of value" it's a quesiton of wheher it's the best gear or not. If it doesn't matter whether it's the best or not is a completely different topic. And I'm not aiming for only being the best in abyssea, and I'm sure no one else in this thread is either. Abyssea produces some amazing gear for many jobs. There's no stipulation on any of it that you can only use it in abyssea.

[Zagen]

It's not a question of "of value" it's a quesiton of wheher it's the best gear or not. If it doesn't matter whether it's the best or not is a completely different topic. And I'm not aiming for only being the best in abyssea, and I'm sure no one else in this thread is either. Abyssea produces some amazing gear for many jobs. There's no stipulation on any of it that you can only use it in abyssea.

You're arguing that everyone sees "Haste > All" when it comes to gear at least until hitting 26%. If I'm not mistaken.

This is only true inside Abyssea or against old content.

And it is true in Voidwatch with a BRD/COR capping your ACC and/or ATK so you can focus on Haste. The thing is if you don't have a BRD and/or COR "Haste > All" won't be true in many cases.

The only way you can have that apply inside Abyssea is if you don't use Atma and/or Cruor, which would be dumb not opportunistic like using a BRD or COR is outside. That's why using Abyssea content as a benchmark for what is the "best" gear will give you bad results.

tl:dr Gear is situational.

[hiko]

How does you being amazing naked have anything to do with this gear or that gear being the best gear or not?

So I can one shot Abyssean trash mobs with victory smite. Does that mean that the gear I get in there is not the best, just because I'm already "strong enough" ?

easy just take 2set (both same haste)
set one: lot off acc and attack , Nhit for ws
set two: n-1 build, no acc nor att,
wich is better?

if you're acc caped and have decent atack while naked 2nd is better
if you have crapp acc/att while naked first win.

[Alhanelem]

Um sorry, I'm not seeing what that has to do with "Being awesome while naked means that no gear is the best just because I don't need it in order to be awesome."


That's why using Abyssea content as a benchmark for what is the "best" gear will give you bad results.I'm not using abyssea as a bench mark for gear. Saying that good gear comes from abyssea does not mean that I'm using abyssea itself to determine whether the gear is good or not.

A lot of gear OBTAINED IN ABYSSEA is great WHEN USED OUTSIDE OF ABYSSEA.

[Zagen]

A lot of gear OBTAINED IN ABYSSEA is great WHEN USED OUTSIDE OF ABYSSEA.
This has nothing to do with gearing for Abyssea assuming you're doing it right.

When fSTR, dDEX, ACC, and ATK for some jobs with food/JAs are all capped because of Cruor and/or Atma you gear very differently than you would when any of those aren't true, and drastically different when none of those are true.

Yes doing Abyssea gets you some of the best gear in the game at the moment. That doesn't mean that the gear that is the best inside abyssea is the best outside of it.

Using your "ACC is capped inside abyssea" comment, would you do Voidwatch with 0 ACC in gear because that works inside Abyssea?

[Coldbrand]

I'm gonna' have to say I don't like this one. Sorry, but I already find it annoying enough trying to cap haste on most jobs, let alone cap haste without looking like a jackass.

[Leonlionheart]

I'm gonna' have to say I don't like this one. Sorry, but I already find it annoying enough trying to cap haste on most jobs, let alone cap haste without looking like a jackass.

90% sure the only jobs that can't cap haste incredibly easily are smn blm and sch...

the rest can cap it with 4~6 pieces, most very easily obtainable

but that's beside the point.

Raising Haste is retarded, getting rid of it is even more retarded

[Alhanelem]

This has nothing to do with gearing for Abyssea assuming you're doing it right.You're right. It doesn't. Thats why I capitalized OUTSIDE OF ABYSSEA. I'm not talking about just in abyssea. I never was. Why do you keep going back to abyssea when it's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about gear OBTAINED in abyssea. Not gear USED in abyssea.

People have already been saying dont use abyssea as the benchmark, so we're not.


90% sure the only jobs that can't cap haste incredibly easily are smn blm and sch...

the rest can cap it with 4~6 pieces, most very easily obtainable
Which is why raising a cap that not all jobs can attain in the first place is stupid.

[Zagen]

You're right. It doesn't. Thats why I capitalized OUTSIDE OF ABYSSEA. I'm not talking about just in abyssea. I never was. Why do you keep going back to abyssea when it's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about gear OBTAINED in abyssea. Not gear USED in abyssea.

People have already been saying dont use abyssea as the benchmark, so we're not.

If you agree that Abyssea isn't a benchmark to use. Then you should agree that ACC/DEX/STR/ATK wouldn't be auto capped or near capped on new content meaning "Haste > All" is not the end all be all answer. In other words your argument about people preaching "Haste > All" in all scenarios isn't valid because smart people wouldn't say that, they'd say "Sh!ts Situational".

[Alhanelem]

Haste and accuracy > all. Happy now?

[Greatguardian]

You're forgetting Attack/pDif/cRatio, dDex, fStr. Things are only simple in Abyssea where practically everything is capped.

ITT: Complaining about people making everything too simple by simultaneously oversimplifying the game.

[Alhanelem]

You're forgetting Attack/pDif/cRatio, dDex, fStr.All things that are usually only considered on weapon skills. These stats all matter for about 0.5 seconds every time your TP reaches 100.

I might be "oversimplifying" but answer me this? Why did every melee DD at 75 wear a walmart turban? It has no accuracy, no attack, no effect on pdif, cratio, dDex, or fStr. it ONLY has haste. Speed belt? Haste. Every melee who could obtain these things used them over anything else. Why would this happen if Haste wasn't more important than most other stats most of the time?

[Greatguardian]

Attack, pDif, dDex, and fStr are only considered during weapon skills?

wat.

[Alhanelem]

Attack, pDif, dDex, and fStr are only considered during weapon skills?

wat.Wat is right. I don't see anyone stacking attack or STR or DEX during TP. Or maybe I haven't seen any competent DDs in years of playing.

By "considered," I mean considered by the player, not considered as in whether or not they actually have an effect.

Frankly, I'm not really sure whether to take you seriously or just assume you're trolling me, like everyone else on this forum, for personal entertainment value because I'm an easy target for it.

[Greatguardian]

Sitting around stacking STR over Haste during TP? No. Completely ignoring the value and effects of fSTR? No one with half a brain does that.

Edit: I'm not trolling anyone. Any good player who gives half a damn about their gear will be taking all of that into account and going with whatever increases overall damage the most. I'm so sorry you have an issue with crappy players ignoring important stats. Nothing's ever going to fix that.

FFXIMath became a lot easier in Abyssea because a lot of things like Accuracy, dDex, and fStr were automatically capped with cruor buffs and atmas. Gearing became a lot simpler. As soon as we moved back outside into Voidwatch, those caps became dynamic again and gearing became complex work with a lot more variables.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Depends on your definition of stacking, obviously once you're capped (or near capped) on Haste/Accuracy depending on options you don't need anymore, and can focus on other stats.

Goes right back to shit is situational.

[Alhanelem]

Completely ignoring the value and effects of fSTR? No one with half a brain does that. Being aware of the effects of stats and actually using those stats are two entirely different things.


obviously once you're capped on Haste/AccuracyWhich is my whole point. Haste comes before everything else. No gear setup that doesn't include 26% haste or the maximum you can obtain whilst still having good accuracy can be or will ever be accepted for general purpose activity, largely because until Abyssea came along, no piece of gear that had more than 1-2% haste had much in the way of any other stats.

If you raise the maximum, the only thing that will change is the number of pieces of gear that people will have to devote to haste.

If haste on gear were eliminated, you would see a lot more diversity in the equipment worn by players. Accuracy is usually available together with other stats like STR and Attack, for instance.

[Greatguardian]

That depends entirely on context.

If you don't understand that, you're making it sound very much like you don't actually have multiple gear sets for different situations. Good players do. My Monk alone has 8 different variable "modes", each of which consisting of a set for all of my actions. You're complaining about Haste making the game "too simple" when the only simple thing is the player.

[Alhanelem]

If you don't understand that, you're making it sound very much like you don't actually have multiple gear sets for different situationsI absolutely do have different gear for different situations. The design of the game demands it. But unless you're doing something that doesn't involve meleeing, you normally max haste if at all possible whilst maintaining accuracy.

Most of the other gear sets people have are for specific job abilities, or weapon skills. Some DDs will have other special purpose sets. Key word special- not regular, general majority-of-the-time purpose.

Really, on your monk, how much of your time logged in and on the job is spent in 26% haste gear? Honest answer. and since weapon skill gear is generally only on for a split second, we'll not count that time.

The one thing I can tell you for sure is this. I've asked a lot of gear questions comparing X item that has haste and X item that doesn't, that have been responded to by elitists such as Cream_Soda (as known on this forum). The answer is dam near always "the one with haste." The more haste you have, the more effective that next percentage point is. Haste is the only stat that gets better and better for each extra point of it you have- the more of it you have, the harder it is to find a non-haste item that can compete with it.

[Greatguardian]

Does Haste beat other stats point for point? Sure, most of the time. Does that mean people have to sacrifice caring about other stats to cap it, or that other stats can't beat Haste in the same slot sometimes? No. Example: Some 2H jobs have to sacrifice capped Haste in order to maintain their 5-hit builds outside Abyssea.

If you really think good players don't take things like Attack, fStr, dDex, and Accuracy into account when gearing for Voidwatch, then you aren't dealing with good players.

Edit: Monk is ridiculously easy to cap Haste on. Such that there's absolutely 0 reason for me to not have 26% Haste at all times. Why would I give it up? What's wrong with me capping my Haste? Should I not? Does that mean that I ignore my Attack? My Accuracy? My fStr, my dDex? Does that mean I don't change gear when I hit Focus, when I hit Aggressor, or when I hit Berserk to take those effects into account?

ITT: Anyone who's capping Haste obviously doesn't give a crap about anything but Haste. Just quit, you have absolutely no ground to stand on.

[Alhanelem]

Such that there's absolutely 0 reason for me to not have 26% Haste at all times. Because it's so easy for MNK to cap, MNK has much more leeway to get other stats without giving up haste. It's not so easy for most other jobs, which take more pieces of gear to max haste, and thus have less room for obtaining other stats.

Please give me one good example of an item without haste that is at least on par with another item in the same slot that has haste.


Anyone who's capping Haste obviously doesn't give a crap about anything but Haste.No, I won't quit, because that's not what I said. Capping haste is the FIRST thing anyone does. I NEVER said that other stats are irrelevant- only that people only go for them AFTER haste. If you tell me that haste isn't any mainstream melee's first priority for TP gear, I'd say you're full of it.

ITT: Elitists who flame others for their own entertainment.

[Greatguardian]

Because it's so easy for MNK to cap, MNK has much more leeway to get other stats without giving up haste. It's not so easy for most other jobs.

... That's my point. But so what? 26% Haste isn't hard to get for anyone who isn't a mage. The only people with any real trouble are 2-handers who are trying to push really STP-intensive 5-hits, or SMN/SCH/BLMs. There is nothing preventing people from hitting 26% Haste and then focusing on other stats in the rest of their gear. There are different combinations of gear that can be used to hit max Haste too =/.

I really don't see your point. Oh no, capping Haste obviously means that all other stats are worthless. Right.

Edit: You're incorrigible. Throw around generalizations all you like. Capping Haste first may not always be the best way to go as the game stands right now. It takes a good player who actually gives a damn to tell the difference. Thing is? Capping Haste just isn't that hard anyways.

[Zagen]

Being aware of the effects of stats and actually using those stats are two entirely different things.

Which is my whole point. Haste comes before everything else. No gear setup that doesn't include 26% haste or the maximum you can obtain whilst still having good accuracy can be or will ever be accepted for general purpose activity, largely because until Abyssea came along, no piece of gear that had more than 1-2% haste had much in the way of any other stats.

If you raise the maximum, the only thing that will change is the number of pieces of gear that people will have to devote to haste.

If haste on gear were eliminated, you would see a lot more diversity in the equipment worn by players. Accuracy is usually available together with other stats like STR and Attack, for instance.

Removing haste creates no diversity... just because you remove haste from the equation doesn't mean everything else gets randomized.

I'll give you an outdated example but its the only one I can think of without doing a ton of math to compare gear options.
Hachiman Kote > Dusk Gloves if it dropped your X-hit at 75. Knowing which stats will help better in a given situation and how to adapt gear will show you that "Haste/ACC > All" still isn't the end all be all answer.

[Alhanelem]

Oh no, capping Haste obviously means that all other stats are worthless. Right. YOu keep on saying this and saying this, but that's not what I'm saying. Haste is the MOST important, not the ONLY important thing.

[Alhanelem]

Edit: You're incorrigible. Throw around generalizations all you like. Capping Haste first may not always be the best way to go as the game stands right now. It takes a good player who actually gives a damn to tell the difference. Thing is? Capping Haste just isn't that hard anyways. Personal attacks for the loss.

You may not realize this, but very few jobs could so easily cap haste before Abyssea; those that gained the ability to still need it all over their gear in order to cap it.

It's nice to hear you say that other stats can beat haste in some circumstances, but the fact is haste is still better for most DDs most of the time. You really don't think that's a problem or a poor design decision?

[Greatguardian]

I absolutely do not. And this is not before Abyssea. This is after Abyssea. And Haste is not hard to cap.

If Haste wasn't the most important stat, what would be? Accuracy? Attack? Something is always going to find a way to become the "most important" stat. Otherwise, we may as well just stack whatever gear has the highest numbers on it. All stats equal, Byakko's Haidate would be pretty awesome with +20 on them.

[Alhanelem]

You're right, I'm wrong. Nice chatting with you.

[Cream_Soda]

You're right, I'm wrong. Nice chatting with you.
I can agree to that

[Supersun]

Accuracy actually is a more important stat up until a certain point (with the exception of REALLY high hasye values).

2 accuracy can actually give up to a +5% increase in damage.

80% haste and floored accuracy is virtually equal to 0% haste and capped accuracy.

[Leonlionheart]

Accuracy actually is a more important stat up until a certain point (with the exception of REALLY high hasye values).

2 accuracy can actually give up to a +5% increase in damage.

80% haste and floored accuracy is virtually equal to 0% haste and capped accuracy.

In that case isn't accuracy more important than haste still?

Floored haste is 20%, 80% haste is 4x attack speed, which would mean your hitting about 80% of the dps you would if you had 100% accuracy. And accuracy caps at 95%.

Maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way

[Supersun]

80% haste is 4x attack speed

80% haste is 5x attack speed.

Out of 100 attacks capped accuracy hits 95 times

Out of 500 attacks (5x) floored accuracy hits 100 times.

[Yugl]

This has nothing to do with gearing for Abyssea assuming you're doing it right.

When fSTR, dDEX, ACC, and ATK for some jobs with food/JAs are all capped because of Cruor and/or Atma you gear very differently than you would when any of those aren't true, and drastically different when none of those are true.

Yes doing Abyssea gets you some of the best gear in the game at the moment. That doesn't mean that the gear that is the best inside abyssea is the best outside of it.

Using your "ACC is capped inside abyssea" comment, would you do Voidwatch with 0 ACC in gear because that works inside Abyssea?

While new content requires more accuracy, food resolves most of these issues. Other than that, there aren't many situations where you're sacrificing less than 25% Haste options for accuracy. Furthermore, if these NMs are as difficult to melee as you're suggesting (I've only participated in new content as a mage, but the melee don't seem to have the accuracy issue you're suggesting arises; i.e. 80% or less), then I imagine they're receiving bard buffs, which will inevitably increase the utility of haste either through stacking delay reduction or covering massive accuracy deficits.

[Jar]

Glad everyone agreed with my first post :x lmao

[Runespider]

Just because "new content won't be in abyssea" doesn't mean that abyssea itself will no longer be of significance or importance. You say "abysssea is done" as if we suddenly won't be doing it anymore.

I think the point is more that it's so easy to cap out on gear (even emps) that nobody will do much aside from XP in there soon, looking at the 12 month road map that is actually very bad cause there isn't much else coming of consequence.

[Zagen]

While new content requires more accuracy, food resolves most of these issues. Other than that, there aren't many situations where you're sacrificing less than 25% Haste options for accuracy. Furthermore, if these NMs are as difficult to melee as you're suggesting (I've only participated in new content as a mage, but the melee don't seem to have the accuracy issue you're suggesting arises; i.e. 80% or less), then I imagine they're receiving bard buffs, which will inevitably increase the utility of haste either through stacking delay reduction or covering massive accuracy deficits.

Not everyone has a pocket COR or BRD for buffs. If you can't rely on a BRD or COR to compensate for any issues a melee would have I'd hope they'd rework their gear to compensate.

Also 80% isn't a fixed number it was just the accepted number in the past that needed to be attained before you should look into Haste from gear.

As to food you're right that does help but pizza isn't the solution for every situation, sometimes you want/need more ATK, STR, DEX, sTP, or ACC and need to gear to compensate.

I'll say it again "Gear is Situational" if you want to strive to be the best you look at multiple gear options for a given situation and don't just settle for 1 blanket gear set.

[Rearden]

Gear is situational up until the point you're sacrificing haste for accuracy. At that point you need to bring a better party setup - one that continues to cap your haste and can provide an accuracy buff if Sushi or Pizza isn't providing it.

And Byrth's example is correct, using the current values for haste caps (individually) the game would be better off.

[Yugl]

Not everyone has a pocket COR or BRD for buffs. If you can't rely on a BRD or COR to compensate for any issues a melee would have I'd hope they'd rework their gear to compensate.

Also 80% isn't a fixed number it was just the accepted number in the past that needed to be attained before you should look into Haste from gear.

As to food you're right that does help but pizza isn't the solution for every situation, sometimes you want/need more ATK, STR, DEX, sTP, or ACC and need to gear to compensate.

I'll say it again "Gear is Situational" if you want to strive to be the best you look at multiple gear options for a given situation and don't just settle for 1 blanket gear set.

The argument is de facto. Given the melee I play (DRG, BLU, and more recently, MNK), I don't see any major ACC > Haste situations you wouldn't want to resolve via food. DEX deficit only matters for dDEX sets, which may become relevant in the future, but have become obsolete since the introduction of Abyssea and the steady drive away from Colibri (And only WAR were able to attain that luxury then because they could cap haste while making the necessary gear changes). I didn't imply that people have pocket BRDs; however, if the content is as difficult to melee as he is describing, BRD is an invaluable member, so you're damaging yourself by not bringing one.

[Zagen]

BRD is an invaluable member, so you're damaging yourself by not bringing one.
I don't disagree the point is if BRD or COR isn't an option then gear is which is why blanket statements like "Haste > All" are flawed.

You mentioned BLU now I'm curious do you gear your BLU for melee inside Abyssea the same way for Voidwatch? I'm assuming you're doing Voidwatch as that is the only current content outside of Abyssea that matters at the moment.

[Atomic_Skull]

100% haste would indeed be infinite. The % is subtracted from your delay. If you take say 6 seconds to swing, at 80% haste you would take 1.2 seconds to swing. Which would be as stated earlier 5x your normal actions at 80% haste. At 90% you would take 0.6 seconds to swing. 10x your normal actions. The haste formula is one that approaches infinity the closer you get to 100.

If you took 0 seconds to swing it would be nonstop actions and the mob would die in an instant. If you imposed a restriction on how often an autoattack can initiate say 0.1 seconds is the lowest it could possibly go, then it's not truely 100%. For the 6 second swing example you would only have aprox. 98.3% haste, so it would never truely be 100%.

If it wasn't capped somewhere what would happen is that 100% haste would cause a literal "divide by zero" situation. Whenever someone achieved 100% haste and attacked something the server software would lock up. I think what happened was that the whole issue went unnoticed until people started getting dangerously close to 100% haste and they went in with the intention of just capping it at 99% or something. But once they took a good look at it they said "holy %#&@ that's overpowered" and implemented an 80% cap.

[Covenant]

Why not eliminate all jobs, job abilities, and everything else and give players a big sword that does 999dmg and delay 1? That's gonna be the end results of all these melee gripers wanting more damage and more haste.

Yes, if fun to kill things fast and easy, but you reach a point where you HAVE to look at other avenues of enjoyment. I hadn't even realize that the haste cap was 80%...aiy crumubab.

[Korpg]

Why not eliminate all jobs, job abilities, and everything else and give players a big sword that does 999dmg and delay 1? That's gonna be the end results of all these melee gripers wanting more damage and more haste.

Yes, if fun to kill things fast and easy, but you reach a point where you HAVE to look at other avenues of enjoyment. I hadn't even realize that the haste cap was 80%...aiy crumubab.
Most melees know that having the 80% cap is the best we can get, just hope that they don't do nerf it.
Agreed.

[Yugl]

I don't disagree the point is if BRD or COR isn't an option then gear is which is why blanket statements like "Haste > All" are flawed.

You mentioned BLU now I'm curious do you gear your BLU for melee inside Abyssea the same way for Voidwatch? I'm assuming you're doing Voidwatch as that is the only current content outside of Abyssea that matters at the moment.

I always understood "Haste > All" as a exaggerating the importance of haste. I don't have stats on VW monsters and, as mentioned earlier, I've only participated as a mage (Specifically, SCH). Hence, I haven't built my set for VW on BLU, but I do have macros ready for when I do. Previous statements come from witnessing other melees participating in VW.

[CrystalWeapon]

If it wasn't capped somewhere what would happen is that 100% haste would cause a literal "divide by zero" situation. Whenever someone achieved 100% haste and attacked something the server software would lock up. I think what happened was that the whole issue went unnoticed until people started getting dangerously close to 100% haste and they went in with the intention of just capping it at 99% or something. But once they took a good look at it they said "holy %#&@ that's overpowered" and implemented an 80% cap.

It depends on the number of attacks that you would need to process before the mob died, how many individuals are doing it at once, and how many people are nearby to see the damage. It would be the sheer number of attacks in quick succession that would have to be broadcast all at once to all individuals within range that would cause anything from massive lag to a complete network failure.

Even if the cap was 100%, haste would never truely be 100%. Like an infinite loop with no delays, it would always be limited by the processor that's computing the data. It's not as bad as a divide by zero error, but it's still pretty damn bad because of the fact that all the data has to be sent out exponentially to all individuals within range. I'd compare it to running several GOTO 10 programs on one server at the same time that all broadcast data across a network.

Note: I'm not arguing with you. I just felt like putting in my two cents because I'm a nerdy code monkey. Tech and programming talk makes me geek out.

[Korpg]

The damage done is instantaneous, that is why when you have 8 swings that will kill the mob on the 8th hit, the mob doesn't fall to the floor until the 8th hit, but the HP bar goes down to 0 before the first swing happened. Having 100% Haste means that you have 0 delay, which makes all melee hits go back to back instantly, making the HP bar go from 100 to 0 regardless of accuracy (because a missed hit still has 0 delay, so you can have floored accuracy and still instant kill any mob). Even with 99% haste and 5% accuracy, the mob will die in less than 5 seconds.

[Byrth]

Totally irrelevant, but the point was that you'd be necessarily limited by processor speed because the system is discreet. Think of it like this:
1) Every cycle, the program checks to see if you're going to attack this cycle based on your delay and the last time you had an attack round. Like, imagine it cycles once per 1 delay.
Imagine you have an effective delay of 91 and have just swung. Your counter starts at 0, and every cycle it will increment by 1 and be checked with "Is the counter greater than or equal to 91?" No? Continue. So for 90 cycles it will come back as "no," but the 91st cycle will come back as "Yes," you'll attack, and it will reset the process.
2) If your delay is 0, every cycle it will come back "Yes, his counter is greater than 0." So you attack.

CrystalWeapon's point is that this isn't truly dividing by 0, and you don't have an infinite attack rate, because you're limited by how quickly the processor "cycles." Not incredibly relevant (as it's close enough to an infinite attack rate), but we don't have to worry about dividing by 0.

[Korpg]

I'm just wondering what is the point in debating on this anyway?

SE won't raise the haste cap past 80, we should all hope that they don't lower it to 75.

[Greatguardian]

I'm just wondering what is the point in debating on this anyway?

SE won't raise the haste cap past 80, we should all hope that they don't lower it to 75.

Well, even if they uncapped total delay reduction, we'd never hit 100% anyways so really it's a matter of theory either way. Haste itself will never break 93.3% (25% Gear, 25% JA, 43.3% Magic individual caps), and its relationship with dual wield/martial arts/etc is multiplicative so you're not going to end up hitting 0 delay.

80% is just a cap that almost any job can hit, whereas 93.3% is only attainable by DRK.

[Korpg]

Wouldn't the cap be 83.3% if they do uncap it?

[Cream_Soda]

Wouldn't the cap be 83.3% if they do uncap it?
Desperate blows, Drk.

[Korpg]

I meant for every other job but DRK.

43.3% Haste from Spells
25% Haste from Gear
10% Haste from Hasso (maybe throw in a DNC too?).

Since DRK can easily cap haste from JA, we will throw that out of there.

Edit: I don't know why, but I keep forgetting Hasso for some reason.

[Supersun]

Well technically 100% haste isn't possible since your attack speed would be undefined, but yes, as haste approaches 100% your attack speed approaches infinity.

[Byrth]

You should look at this post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11666-DEV1234-Lift-the-delay-haste-cap?p=147957&viewfull=1#post147957), Korpg. I didn't format it very nicely, but all the information is there.

[Greatguardian]

I meant for every other job but DRK.

43.3% Haste from Spells
25% Haste from Gear
10% Haste from Hasso (maybe throw in a DNC too?).

Since DRK can easily cap haste from JA, we will throw that out of there.

Edit: I don't know why, but I keep forgetting Hasso for some reason.

What Byrth said, and you're leaving out Haste Samba which is JA Haste. Can bring 2H jobs up to 88.3%.