[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM Suggestions

[Kristal]

New trait:
Magic Penetration
RDM 50,70,90,99
Enfeeblings spells have a chance of partially ignoring all magic evasion and immunities. (Potency might still be affected.)

Changes to existing spells and abilities:
Saboteur
* Enfeebling spells affected by Saboteur have 100% Magic Penetration. (Ignores magic evasion and immunity)
* Enfeebling spells affected by Saboteur ignore stacking rules. (Casting Paralyze II on an existing Paralyze II will overwrite the existing Paralyze II, rather then give No Effect on the Saboteur'd Paralyze II.)

Gravity
* Gravity consists of two enfeebling effects: Movement Speed Reduction and Evasion Down. If the target is immune to Movement Speed changes, treat the spell as Evasion Down instead.

Dia series
* Change it so that the Dia series of spells uses Enfeebling Magic Skill to determine the slip damage effect and Divine Magic Skill to determine the initial damage. Both skills can receive skillups.

Bio series
* Change it so that the Bio series of spells uses Enfeebling Magic Skill to determine the slip damage effect and Dark Magic Skill to determine the initial damage. Both skills can receive skillups.

Phalanx II
* Add a small Slip Damage Reduction to the spell. Each tier lowers slip damage by 1, but never to 0. Effect is applied to each seperate slip damage effect.

Merit group 2
It's currently not realistically possible to get all merit spells unlocked. Dia III, Bio III, Phalanx II all require 5 tiers to be more effective then their lower tier version, and with 6 spells to unlock, you'd need 18 upgrades total to get minimal improvements where only 10 are allowed. Please change the ranks so that each merit spell is slightly better at rank 1 then their lower tier version, and allow players to choose where to put the remaining 4 upgrades. This is the scenario for all the other jobs, only RDM seems to be different.

[wildsprite]

how about adding improvements to the melee of RDM as well, I'm sorry but RDM's 2 main weapons are sword and dagger,their club skill is garbage, they have no staff skill, they should be able to hit better, even if they were to change how the en spells worked to give more damage it would be better, just adding spells nerfs the RDM even farther than it is already, and honestly people need to stop suggesting it

[Greatguardian]

There are a million threads on RDM Melee. There's no need to crap this one up with the same rehashes.

As for the suggestions, they look neat. What do you mean exactly by slip damage reduction on Phalanx 2? Do you just mean the equivalent of a Regen effect that only applies when taking any sort of DoT damage?

I also believe SE has stated that they will be adjusting the relative potency of Group 2 merits across the board, so that each point will do more for you. At the moment I just have 2/5 Dia 3 for a 60 second dia, 5/5 Slow 2, and 3/5 Para 2. I wouldn't mind access to Phalanx 2, but I haven't found it worth it to give up my T2 Enfeebles for it since I'm always the DD for cleaves, and am typically /SCH when playing support RDM anyways which can simply Phalanxga.

[Hyrist]

You're going to have to deal with it, guardian. Player's want it, they're going to scream about it until they get thrown a bone.

That said, I'd rather discuss the suggestions already made and keep newer ideas more along the lines of 'spin offs' to the current idea set.


Magic Penetration

Accuracy without potency is worthless. If we land a Slow II that ends up landing only 3% Slow due to immunity penetration, it still wouldn't be worth the multiple times attempting to proc it naturally, or the waste on Saboteur to force it. The root problem with enfeebles is the fact that SE pulls monsters into immunity categories on our best enfeebles with little to show for it otherwise. Cut the immunities, add new enfeebles. They've already listed both of them as adjustments.



Saboteur

I like the guaranteed land idea, though that treads a little on Elemental Seal's territory. The ability to use Saboteur to re-apply over other stacks is also a nice idea here.


Gravity

Hmm. I like but I'm not sure on the implementation. Just don't expect it to work say on wind elemental monsters and it should be ok. But really, when are people really worried about monster evasion nowadays anyways? I could see this being implemented in a stronger version of Gravity, with a more powerful evasion down on say, incredibly evasive HNMs, but then again, that's when you bring in the nuking team.


Bio/Dia changes

Kinda... pointless. Bio is our only native Dark Magic skill and Dia was once Divine. The problem with changing Bio in the way you described is that it effects not only our job, but others as well.

If we're going to claim 'ownership' of these debuffs due to the merits surrounding them, you might as well just slip Bio into the enfeebling category and have both slip and initial damage be based off of enfeebeling skill.

Otherwise just throw up Dark Arts for Bio spells. Dia isn't about slip damage anyways.


Phalanx II

Ignoring pending merit adjustments and my desire for this to be a simple scroll spell. Phalanx as a status effect itself is slipping behind in usefulness. While deducting from slip damage would be a great effect to add. I'll love for Phalanx to gain an additional effect of % damage down. When a monster is already hitting you for high amounts a set amount capped in your 20s isn't going to be all that much of a life saver.


As far as merit adjustments for our job, I'd like nothing short of an overhaul. Changing our category 1 merits completely.

Enfeebling Magic Duration
Enhancing Magic Duration
Enspell Damage Bonus
Magic Accuracy Bonus
'Quick Cast' Recast Time

This sort of category set up is far more in line with the other jobs' category 1 merits.

As far as category 2 merits go. Sack the merit requirement for having these spells. And turn them into Potency buffs for the whole line, then give us the root spells in their base form (which opens up room for even higher tiers.)

Though, you could always just add a "Enfeeble Potency" merit into Catagory I and actually give us, you know, NEW abilities/spells for the Category twos. Honestly I always thought that the RDM was among the jobs that got shafted comparably when it came to merits.

[Greatguardian]

You should log in and do that parse, brah.

And no, I'm not going to have to deal with it. GMs have already closed topics in this forum because people are bringing RDMelee everywhere when it already has numerous threads. This thread is about Magical buffing.

[Hyrist]

You should log in and do that parse, brah.

Person who challenged me at the parse told me not to bother till I had a 'decent' WS set, bro. And 'decent' in their definition is 90% best gear pieces available to their job. So that's gonna be a while, especially when I play maybe 2-3 hours a day max and I've more important pieces/jobs to work on.

You wanna help that parse come along quicker, volunteer to help me get the gear. Otherwise, you're just as much at the mercy of my playability as I am.

And this conversation is about the Adjustments Manifesto, in general. Bringing up buffs to melee is an eventually. Remember, any spell that helps physically enhance another member of the party, by rights should also benefit us. Any debuffs that effect the damage the monster receives, will likely enhance ours as well. That's a balance factor SE has to keep in check if they're wanting to aid or inhibit a Red Mage from taking the front lines in ANY situation.

Personally, I'm hoping they don't hesitate in that respect. Calling us a godly buffer when a WHM bests us in that department was an insult, at best. If we're going to be put on the same pedestal as Bards and Corsairs, we need to have more there.

[Ritsuka]

I'm not here realy to win your ya's or nah's but I'd realy like to see rdm get some teir 5 spells. And maybe a good weapon skill that does some damage. Death Blossum is cool and all but come on.... Alot of ppl like to go rdm/nin would be nice to see a decen weapon skill.

[Kristal]

Accuracy without potency is worthless. If we land a Slow II that ends up landing only 3% Slow due to immunity penetration, it still wouldn't be worth the multiple times attempting to proc it naturally, or the waste on Saboteur to force it. The root problem with enfeebles is the fact that SE pulls monsters into immunity categories on our best enfeebles with little to show for it otherwise. Cut the immunities, add new enfeebles. They've already listed both of them as adjustments.
Immunity evasion wouldn't cause the potency decrease, but natural resistances. You could cast Slow II on an Earth Elemental, but it would still have a high resistance (-potency, -duration) against it, rather then outright immunity.


I like the guaranteed land idea, though that treads a little on Elemental Seal's territory. The ability to use Saboteur to re-apply over other stacks is also a nice idea here.

Saboteur is an RDM only ability that ONLY affects Enfeebling spells, and it still wouldn't guarantee landing. Elemental Seal is available to any job/BLM that affects any spell (Elemental and Enfeebling in particular, but NIN/BRD/BLU as well) to ensure it'll land. But even Elemental Seal+Saboteur is currently unable to land an enfeebling effect on a level 1 elemental if SE coded it to be absolutely immune, even if it wouldn't be gamebreaking if it did. (Paralyze on an Ice Elemental, Slow on Earth Elemental, Gravity on Wind Elemental, etc)

ES+S could be used to Silence a big caster NM shortly, but it would be akin to a yellow !! without the seals/+2 drops...

[Rosina]

I agree. I like to see a rdm melee boost. get rdm up front where it belongs.

[Coops]

all RDM needs is Cure V. Give it Cure V please!

[Zatias]

all RDM needs is Cure V. Give it Cure V please!
You mean give it back, you thieving game developers! That and Amnesia(spell). That would be awesome! >.>

As goes for melee, I would like to see a native Double Attack trait (maybe...) and an enspell that is actually effected by MAB AND Enhancing Skill. Making the weapon actually glow (like Sarasinger) during this effect would look cool XP. More importantly, vorpal blade without having to sub a certain job would make meleeing more enjoyable...

Maybe that isn't what RDM actually NEEDS but it is something I would like to see lol

Edit: The Double Attack could come from Enspell t3. "Composure: Grants Double Attack." When casting it under the effect of composure (who wouldn't...) you get double attack. XD

[Panthera]

The problem is that Red Mage lacks a spell library to actually excel at enhancement nearly as well as it does at enfeebling, as much as its skill rating in enhancment would lead one to believe that it is the job's raison d'etre. Furthermore, no enhancements spells have been cited as "Example Adjustments."

There is too much overlap between Red Mage and White Mage to suggest that Enhancing Magic is the speciality that it should be. Both get Protect and Shell, bar spells and Haste. The only unique spell it gets is Refresh II, as Phalanx has been given natively to Paladin.

Red Mage should get Haste II, and White Mage should not, so that Red Mage brings something unique to the table that the job is purported to be about, and is within The Vision. Phalanx III would be a good thing for the same reason. This would help to solidfy Red Mage as a buffer/debuffer, rather than a poor man's White or Black Mage.

Furthermore, Scholar's Accession should allow for more spells to be AOE. Some may indeed enjoy helping their friends become stronger in battle, but there is just no reason to make it tedious by doing it one person at a time, one spell at a time. This should apply not just to the new spells I'm proposing, but earlier versions, i.e. Haste and Refresh II.

As far as Enfeebles go, I don't think "Stop" would be overpowered, considering that some jobs can have "En-death," via certain weapons, and Death-ga a la Odin. "Stop" honestly seems feeble, as it were, by comparison.

[Aurara]

Please no melee buffs for rdm their place is in the backlines, not the frontlines meleeing.

[Rayik]

Calling us a godly buffer when a WHM bests us in that department was an insult, at best. If we're going to be put on the same pedestal as Bards and Corsairs, we need to have more there.

I agree with you, but I don't take it so much as an insult, but just a sign of how out of touch the Dev's are with RDM in general. Highest Enhancing skill rating means exactly jack squat compared to actual spells. Just look at DRK; it's Elemental Magic is higher than RDM or even SCH, but you don't see DRK out-nuking either job.

[Rayik]

Please no melee buffs for rdm their place is in the backlines, not the frontlines meleeing.

I'm doubting you even have RDM leveled with comments like this.

[Aurara]

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Odin/Aurara/

You should really stop talking

Edit: When i finish farming on BLU how about i show you all my RDM gearsets since you'll probably accuse me of changing data on ffxiah to make it think i have 90 RDM.

[Rayik]

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Odin/Aurara/

You should really stop talking

Wow, look at all those 90's. You Aby burned RDM, didn't you? It's ok, I Aby-burned my DRG, and DNC. Nothing wrong with that if that's the case, I'm just saying it's understandable if all you did to get to 90 was stand in one spot and help heal/open chests. My DRG and DNC are sitting on the sidelines until I have proper gear for them, capped skills, and time available to go out and learn the jobs right.

I'm all for RDM being these big, great Enhancing Kings SE thinks we are, if we actually had the spells natively to do so. You shouldn't need any specific subjob to do what the job was intended in the first place(whm for enhancing).

[Aurara]

I didn't abyssea burn RDM
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q268/Aurara_Ifrit/ffxi_20090815_140543.png

=/

[Hyrist]

Oh he does, but he spends all his time in HNM camps, Voidwatch, etc. Which means he's never in situations in which he would melee.


As goes for melee, I would like to see a native Double Attack trait (maybe...) and an enspell that is actually effected by MAB AND Enhancing Skill. Making the weapon actually glow (like Sarasinger) during this effect would look cool XP. More importantly, vorpal blade without having to sub a certain job would make meleeing more enjoyable...

Maybe that isn't what RDM actually NEEDS but it is something I would like to see lol

Edit: The Double Attack could come from Enspell t3. "Composure: Grants Double Attack." When casting it under the effect of composure (who wouldn't...) you get double attack. XD

I could see this. But I'd rather see a spell that would grant us this separately, one that could be cast on others in specific situations like HNMs.

I'm looking for more of a global improvement on RDM, Meleeing being a part of it not to be ignored, as any Red Mage that's not spending 98% of his time on monsters that even Blue Mage's wouldn't be Tping on would think.

There should be a use for the gear we receive, and the weapons we can aim for. Otherwise, what separates us from being a mock Scholar? And don't go picking away at individual spells I'm talking class concepts here. We have a decent Martial Skill rating and spells (and 1 Ability) that enhances them, they don't.

Idealy it should be our spells that define us further. Spells that enhance ourselves as well as others.

Red Mage should be up front on things other classes Melee on without hesitation. There's enough healing and recovery given to all other kinds of support jobs and subjobs, fodder shouldn't be a point of contention.

This absolutist idea that Red Mage should NEVER melee in ANY group kinda sickens me. HNMs, zone bosses, particularly nasty NMs and certain Mission mobs, yeah, sure backline away. (But please give us better buffs and enfeebles to do it with.) Everything else, pull out that sword, put on your melee gear and go to town.

Enhancing THAT aspect of the job shouldn't hurt anything, and broaden the situations in which they can. (Giving us a tool for Abyssea usage and low man or low difficult events to streamline things.) My idea mainly is to have a utility in the front-line that streamlines this concept. It shouldn't be all that hard or dramatic to do so.

[Rayik]

I didn't abyssea burn RDM
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q268/Aurara_Ifrit/ffxi_20090815_140543.png

=/

Good to see you got the link thing figured out. Good lord how old is that pic? Blue letter 75?

[Aurara]

I haven't been to an HNM camp in years.

[Rayik]

"Melee-fodder, Magic-bosses"

Works for me.

[Rayik]

Unfortunately with the whole Enhancing thing, the more I think about it, it just feels almost like it's too late to really do anything to turn the tide of how the spells were distributed. We can't just get -aga version of buffs; WHM has them, and it's one of SCH's main gimmicks. A slew of new spells just bogs down the casting cycle even more. Composure only benefits the RDM, and is actually detrimental to party members(longer recast timers).

Maybe SE just needs to wake up and put the Enhancing crown on another job.

[Greatguardian]

Contrary to popular forum belief, there is a large population of extremely good Red Mages who prefer the magical aspect of the job. Preferring to play a backline does not equate to being lazy, or bandwagon. Backline Red Mages can, and really should, be extremely active.

That's what strikes so many Red mages as crazy about the melee aspect. We barely have the MP and the time to keep up with a serious casting role, that there's no way to seriously consider taking away a massive chunk of our Refresh gear (7/tick to 0 is a lot, 1166 MP/Convert assuming maxed Vert merits), the benefit of our Main/Sub slots, and our time/attention that we'd have to devote to WS'ing, Engaging, and running up to new monsters without severely detracting from our casting abilities.

Many of us don't think that drop in magical ability is anywhere near worth the mediocre melee damage we contribute, nor do we feel that exchanging magical buffs for melee buffs would be worthwhile considering, as pointed out, Red Mage has suffered from a relative lack of growth in their abilities over the past 15 levels. Red Mage still is, and always has been an extremely powerful job. I think the Devs realized that, and tried to tone it down a bit as they raised the level cap. Unfortunately, they seem to have taken that toning a wee bit far. I have little doubt that RDM will swing back up on the way to 99, though.


Good to see you got the link thing figured out. Good lord how old is that pic? Blue letter 75?

That's the point. He never Abyssea burned RDM, it was 75 before the level cap.

[Hyrist]

I haven't been to an HNM camp in years.

Take a look at the monsters your fighting and ask yourself two questions:

Is your Blue Mage, Theif(non tanking) , or Puppetmaster Tping on them?
Do you have a White Mage, Dancer, or Scholar in the party?
(In Abyssea there's a third: Have procs been made?)

If the answer to these questions is yes, then you can Melee, and probably should. The faster the monster dies, the better.

[Rayik]

Contrary to popular forum belief, there is a large population of extremely good Red Mages who prefer the magical aspect of the job. Preferring to play a backline does not equate to being lazy, or bandwagon. Backline Red Mages can, and really should, be extremely active.

That's what strikes so many Red mages as crazy about the melee aspect. We barely have the MP and the time to keep up with a serious casting role, that there's no way to seriously consider taking away a massive chunk of our Refresh gear (7/tick to 0 is a lot, 1166 MP/Convert assuming maxed Vert merits), the benefit of our Main/Sub slots, and our time/attention that we'd have to devote to WS'ing, Engaging, and running up to new monsters without severely detracting from our casting abilities.


Many of us don't think that drop in magical ability is anywhere near worth the mediocre melee damage we contribute, nor do we feel that exchanging magical buffs for melee buffs would be worthwhile considering, as pointed out, Red Mage has suffered from a relative lack of growth in their abilities over the past 15 levels. Red Mage still is, and always has been an extremely powerful job. I think the Devs realized that, and tried to tone it down a bit as they raised the level cap. Unfortunately, they seem to have taken that toning a wee bit far. I have little doubt that RDM will swing back up on the way to 99, though.

I see where you are coming from, and pretty much agree, but the one thing we can all agree on, is RDM is a versatile job. A WAR hits stuff. WHM's heal and buff. BLM's nuke. RDM can do all these things and more, it just really comes down to play style preference. If someone prefers the backline, that's great, but there needs to be more for those of us who prefer the frontline too, since it really is a facet of the job. Not every RDM wants it, the same way not every RDM wants to stand in the back the whole time either. For all it's potential, RDM should not be typecast into a single job role, not melee nor pure-mage.

EDIT: Basically, there is a time and place for a RDM to be in the back line casting, and a time and place to be up in the front swinging. Neither is optimal 100% of the time. But to completely ignore either of these facets of the job is to ignore what it is to be a RDM in the first place.

[Hyrist]

Many of us don't think that drop in magical ability is anywhere near worth the mediocre melee damage we contribute, nor do we feel that exchanging magical buffs for melee buffs would be worthwhile considering, as pointed out, Red Mage has suffered from a relative lack of growth in their abilities over the past 15 levels. Red Mage still is, and always has been an extremely powerful job.

Two things.

1) Our magical buffs and our melee buffs do not need to (and in my opinion should not) be separate entities, especially keeping the manifesto in mind. It was infuriating twice over for me to have Scholar be able to AoE our enspells more effectively than we can, with the second insult being haste samba and how even if we could AoE our enspells or bestow them on others, they would be outshined by the most broken stat in the game.

2) Our 'power' was entirely situational, and mainly due to broken mechanics. True, we could solo just about anything we could bind/gravity. But now that holds true for every job that can, and it took 2 hours.

But if you're talking frantic spell load, then you're taking the place of a White Mage, or you're lieing to yourself. Because everything we have available to us, we have a specalist for that can do better, with the exception of Refresh(II) Haste(Due to AF3+2 Now) and enfeebles, which have steadily gotten worse over the years due to mob immunities or extremely high resist rates.

I'd love for your argument about our spell load to be true, but most of it doesn't have to do with what a Red Mage offers themselves, it has to do with us assuming some other job's role. Abyssea really brought this problem to a head in the most glaring fashion it could and it should be addressed.

[Aurara]

Take a look at the monsters your fighting and ask yourself two questions:

Is your Blue Mage, Theif(non tanking) , or Puppetmaster Tping on them?
Do you have a White Mage, Dancer, or Scholar in the party?
(In Abyssea there's a third: Have procs been made?)

If the answer to these questions is yes, then you can Melee, and probably should. The faster the monster dies, the better.

The hilarity of this statement is incredible, you would promote meleeing on stuff like itzpapalotl, Glavoid, Chloris, APADEMAK, Pantokrator, Tunga, Ulhuadshi, and various other bosses where you could be doing something more useful than giving these mobs TP?

[Greatguardian]

The spell load between an active White mage and active Red mage is worlds apart. Red Mage is also the sturdiest job in the game outside Abyssea (where White Mage takes that prize away with infinite MP). It can do a whole lot more than just solo'ing, especially Bind solo'ing.

[Hyrist]

God you're so infuriating. You take the highest assumptions for every statement instead of using common sense.

itzpapalotl, zone boss.
Glavoid, zone boss.
Chloris, AoE Doom, Can be paralyzed, slowed, silenced, blinded and elegied.
Apademak, Inflicts Weakness
Pantokrator, ... It's Omega, comon.
Tunga is usually kite/nuke mob.
Ulhuadshi... another sandworm mob.

Perhaps you're not getting it. Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses. Everything you listed with the exception of Trunga and Chloris is HNM/Boss material. They all have AoEs that give even the melee classes reason to pause. That's the drawing line.

(As a note, I would not TP any of the above on BLU.)

[Concerned4FFxi]

i think cure 5 would rob whm since all that job does is cure and buff, so no rdm sch cure 5 please. on a brighter note i'd like to see rdm get tier 3 enfeebles and en-pells. The 75 merits for para/slow/blind2 would be changed to paralyze enffebing magic boast, blind magic booast. etc, thereby giving a generic modifier to all tier paralyze or whatever spell relates. Or, at 99, you could get a 99merit for paralyze that effects or improves paraylze two, etc. The en-spells need adjustment no matter what. Pld and Drk have a potent en-spell, its time duelists recieve there due. Also, a more power version of our spike spells would be nice, such as a tier 2. And for those who compain and cure 5, we still get cure 4 without a sub job. I'd also like to see some fencing aromor for rdm, something that goes with the job discription

[Aurara]

God you're so infuriating. You take the highest assumptions for every statement instead of using common sense.

itzpapalotl, zone boss.
Glavoid, zone boss.
Chloris, AoE Doom, Can be paralyzed, slowed, silenced, blinded and elegied.
Apademak, Inflicts Weakness
Pantokrator, ... It's Omega, comon.
Tunga is usually kite/nuke mob.
Ulhuadshi... another sandworm mob.

Perhaps you're not getting it. Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses. Everything you listed with the exception of Trunga and Chloris is HNM/Boss material. They all have AoEs that give even the melee classes reason to pause. That's the drawing line.

(As a note, I would not TP any of the above on BLU.)

Except I did exactly as you told me, and told you the mobs i fight.

[Rayik]

Except I did exactly as you told me, and told you the mobs i fight.

But you don't melee in any way shape or form, and you completely missed the criteria he described in which melee is ok. So, swing and a miss.

EDIT: So you never fight anything else other than Abyssea's toughest NM's? How do you even get the KI/PI's if they are the only things you fight? Serious question.

[Aurara]

Take a look at the monsters your fighting and ask yourself two questions:

Is your Blue Mage, Theif(non tanking) , or Puppetmaster Tping on them?
Do you have a White Mage, Dancer, or Scholar in the party?
(In Abyssea there's a third: Have procs been made?)

If the answer to these questions is yes, then you can Melee, and probably should. The faster the monster dies, the better.
Rayik let me break it down for you

Lets use Apademak for example:
1. No, my BLU THF nor PUP is TPing on them
2.We have a WHM, but not a SCH or DNC
3.No, procs have not been made because its apademak and proccing is stupid. Combine that with the fact that apademak levels up and fulms you if somebody dies(hi you or a melee because you feed it stupid amounts of TP). Protip btw Hyrist, it only weakens you if you fight it wrong, and clearly you do with that statement.

[Rayik]

Rayik let me break it down for you

Lets use Apademak for example:
1. No, my BLU THF nor PUP is TPing on them
2.We have a WHM, but not a SCH or DNC
3.No, procs have not been made because its apademak and proccing is stupid. Combine that with the fact that apademak levels up and fulms you if somebody dies(hi you or a melee because you feed it stupid amounts of TP). Protip btw Hyrist, it only weakens you if you fight it wrong, and clearly you do with that statement.

Completely missed again. 0/2. Read the comment you quoted.

[Aurara]

I did...lol
Edit: According to that a RDM should be meleeing because you have a whm.

[Doombringer]

i think he means all 3. like a checklist. if any 1 is no, you abort mission.

[Rayik]

I did...lol
Edit: According to that a RDM should be meleeing because you have a whm.

Still no, because you said yourself that "No, my BLU THF nor PUP is TPing on them" either. Strike 3! Yer outta here! *crowd noise*

In case you haven't noticed, I'm having fun with ya. If I were trying to be completely aggressive or insulting, I would be using a bunch of curse-words and yo' mamma jokes.

[Aurara]

EDIT: So you never fight anything else other than Abyssea's toughest NM's? How do you even get the KI/PI's if they are the only things you fight? Serious question.

I never said I ONLY fight those NMs, you're putting words in my mouth. I AoE mobs for KI/Pop items(in the case of Orthrus, Alfard and Apademak). But you fail to see that we proc then kill. Mobs dont live long enough for a RDM to get to 100% TP. When you have 2 Ukons, Vereth, and Kannagi nin(obviously not in the same pt or there ALL the time for every kill) Mobs usually die before red or yellow wears making RDM melee pointless.

[Rayik]

I never said I ONLY fight those NMs, you're putting words in my mouth. I AoE mobs for KI/Pop items(in the case of Orthrus, Alfard and Apademak). But you fail to see that we proc then kill. Mobs dont live long enough for a RDM to get to 100% TP. When you have 2 Ukons, Vereth, and Kannagi nin(obviously not in the same pt or there ALL the time for every kill) Mobs usually die before red or yellow wears making RDM melee pointless.

You said that's what you fight, so I was just asking. If you share a group with that many empy's, just think what you could do with an Almace, it would be pretty awesome.

[Aurara]

You said that's what you fight, so I was just asking. If you share a group with that many empy's, just think what you could do with an Almace, it would be pretty awesome.

Almace wouldn't change anything.

[Greatguardian]

Seems like it. THF is a horrible example, though. People have THFs melee even if the TP feed is a pain in the butt because TH is awesome. Step 1 should be more like:

"Is your Summoner, White Mage, or Bard melee'ing?"

White Mage is a stronger melee, Bard is about equal to Red Mage, and Summoner is significantly weaker as a melee but good luck telling some of them that.

Puppetmaster, Blue Mage, and Thief are all stronger melees than Red Mage (PUP by a lot), and Blu/Thf both have unique utility reasons to be melee'ing.

[Rayik]

Seems like it. THF is a horrible example, though. People have THFs melee even if the TP feed is a pain in the butt because TH is awesome. Step 1 should be more like:

"Is your Summoner, White Mage, or Bard melee'ing?"

White Mage is a stronger melee, Bard is about equal to Red Mage, and Summoner is significantly weaker as a melee but good luck telling some of them that.

Puppetmaster, Blue Mage, and Thief are all stronger melees than Red Mage (PUP by a lot), and Blu/Thf both have unique utility reasons to be melee'ing.

You are absolutely correct, which brings us back to page 1. WHM should not be a stronger melee than RDM, period. But they are, so we'd like a fix.

[Greatguardian]

I've already gone through the explanation for that in another thread. White Mage is a stronger melee because the Devs, when designing each job, had the foresight not to leave any job defenseless or without basic offensive/defensive options for when they are alone and absolutely need to fight.

Pure-healing and pure-support classes like Bard and White Mage were given melee gear and proficiency because they did not have offensive magic or any other way of defending themselves in a pinch.

As far as max capabilities go? A relic Whm and an Empyrean Rdm are probably not far apart on the melee scale. White Mages who actually melee simply tend to be better geared on average than Red Mages who do so. If as many White Mages wanted to melee as Red Mages, I'm sure their average melee proficiency as a community would plummet.

[Hyrist]

Seems like it. THF is a horrible example, though. People have THFs melee even if the TP feed is a pain in the butt because TH is awesome. Step 1 should be more like:

"Is your Summoner, White Mage, or Bard melee'ing?"

White Mage is a stronger melee, Bard is about equal to Red Mage, and Summoner is significantly weaker as a melee but good luck telling some of them that.

Puppetmaster, Blue Mage, and Thief are all stronger melees than Red Mage (PUP by a lot), and Blu/Thf both have unique utility reasons to be melee'ing.

No actually, Thf and Blu are the perfect examples for the exact reason why I'm pushing for a Utility in the front lines, Guardian.

Collect the points together. I said that Red Mage would require a utility to explain the areas in which it would be allowed to melee. This was what I was referring to. The power of the utility of course would dictate what mobs a Red Mage was allowed on, of course, but it would expand it beyond what you would constered the current accepted state.


i think he means all 3. like a checklist. if any 1 is no, you abort mission.

I'm glad someone is getting the point at least. Yes.


"Is your Summoner, White Mage, or Bard melee'ing?"

Negative slight acknowledged.

While I have no qualms about White Mage having the ability to club someone to death occasionally, we should not be in this grouping, period. If you feel as if we should, then there needs to be an adjustment made to the job class to compensate. This is where my request for a utility comes into play again.

What I do currently to function in that utility is dedicated skillchain opening. It's a dated function, yes, and other jobs can do it better. But there is really a difference between being able to do so, and choosing to do so. Most players do not. For Red Mage it is the best use of the TP they gain. They can open 3/4 Tier 3 sections before touching a relic/mythic/emperian. Including those weapons into the calculation then can open/close ALL tier 3 combination as well as both Light on Light and Darkness on Darkness.

Considering some of the numbers melee's these days are pushing, these are fairly large spikes in damage (more with classes that get skillchain bonus.) Higher spikes than we can assist with in nukes, factoring in our DoT. Not to mention that if you really want to push for spike damage, we can push our own Burst accuracy bonus.

This tactic works very well in short term fights, especially if you've got TP built up beforehand.

What's missing in this is the utility to justify the TPing itself. As you said, BLU and THF both have niche's that do.

[Swords]

Seems like it. THF is a horrible example, though. People have THFs melee even if the TP feed is a pain in the butt because TH is awesome. Step 1 should be more like:



It is and isn't, something people tend to overlook is RNG's Bounty Shot ability. While it has a one minute timer it does build off a THF's TH effect with a reasonable rate of success (personally 30-40% success rate per try). They have their pros and cons of course, but ideally it would be optimal to have both in those situations. A THF can just go in land the initial TH only going in to proc/WS, while a RNG fires off Bounty Shot every minute building on that from afar while reducing overall TP feed.

[Aurara]

Or the thf could do the same thing with SA/TA timers 2x as fast, meaning you can drop the rng.

[Swords]

Yeah.... hence why I said they each had their pros and cons. A THF would still have to get up there in AoE/Conal range even if it was a run in/out situation, and there shouldn't even be an argument about the asinine amount of TP THF's are known to give. A RNG on the other hand can just shoot off their JA from afar without worry about feeding a mob any TP or being hit by any AoE's, the drawback is RNG does not get nearly as much TH as THF does initially so it would be slow to start the group off, hence why I said it would be optimal to have both in those situations.

[Aurara]

THF runs in>TA>runs around>SA>runs out. Very little TP feed there.

[Swords]

And a swing and a miss.

If your not in the fray your not building TH reliably, if your in the fray building TH reliably your feeding it assloads of TP, which is the whole point of my statement. The TH built off Bounty shot is roughly the same rate of success as a THF full time meleeing on a mob (Both raising TH about the same rate in a span of time). Even if it takes 2-4 Bounty Shots to raise the TH up a level, a THF is not going to have the same percentage of success raising TH outside of luck just going in every half min to SATA.

And like always you overlook the bigger picture, you still have the added benefit of a THF and RNG BOTH building TH on a mob, even if the THF is just running in and out.

[Aurara]

Do you kill slow or something? TH shouldn't get that high unless you A)Kill slow or B)get lucky with procs. I think it is you have has missed the swing!

[Swords]

Well do you always go in with a full alliance, with multiple jobs for each trigger, and/or each player wielding their own Empy Weapon? Or do you just outright kill without getting any triggers? Last I checked even the most seasoned players can have a miserable day with triggers, which can delay the rate of the monster being killed, but that's besides the point. Most groups pickup and otherwise kill the monster after all the triggers have been done, by which the ideal times to build TH are when people are looking for triggers, which means limit TP feed/DoT on a mob so it does not die or spam nasty WS's before the triggers are found.

I really think it's nice that your arguments always seem to have some hole in them, where you try to argue one point and seemingly throw the other logical considerations out the window, even consider the overall flow of the battle as a whole, or treat every situation as though it were the same.

And I'm sorry you have such a difficult time getting a high TH build on any mob before it dies. Obviously the THF's or RNG's you play as/with should ante up, and I dunno "Suck Less".

[Aurara]

We get red for KI NMs, then kill it. If somebody wants seals we'll get yellow(depending on the mob) otherwise we proc red and then kill. We usually take between 7-9 people in(granted sometimes half of those are dualboxed) abyssea. NIN NIN(both kannagi) whm(usually me) whm(dualboxed) emp brd, blm and sometimes cor(sometimes me or if we have 2 mule whms) and then a mule war for red procs+thf for TH. This is for apademak of course, and sometimes we don't even have a brd at all. I can assure you the last thing my group needs to do is "suck less" as you claimed, that's your job because you obviously need the TH so bad you bring a RNG and a THF(and granted thf does it much faster and usually by the time you get TH9 the mob is dead so why bring rng unless they are just extra?).

[Reiokyu]

I really hate to be the one to bring this up but...what happened to the original purpose of this thread? It seems to have changed back to so many of the bickering threads I have read throughout these forums. It may be too much to ask, but can we get back on topic please?

[Zatias]

I really hate to be the one to bring this up but...what happened to the original purpose of this thread? It seems to have changed back to so many of the bickering threads I have read throughout these forums. It may be too much to ask, but can we get back on topic please?

^This.

This forum has turned into a trolling flamefest. What happened to just being nice, ignoring dumb comments and moving on with it. If the person you are attacking is wrong, then let them be wrong >.>

About my "Composure: Grants Double Attack" idea, you wouldn't be doing this on HNMs. Seriously lol. The double attack would just be more of a TP feed. I am just saying, we are fighter-mages, we SHOULD get better melee traits.

And yes RDM should get Cure 5 back. Even outside of Abyssea Cure 4 is pretty lackluster and wont always save a life ; ; RDM Cure V wont destroy WHM; we don't get Cureskin OR as much Cure potency.

[Greatguardian]

I'm not sure if most people even remember this far back, but RDM didn't just lose Cure V out of nowhere. They traded it for Dia 3, which used to be a WHM-exclusive non-merit spell. I play both, and I'd be totally fine with Rdm getting Cure V if Whm got Dia 3 back. Whm's active support options are actually extremely limited compared to Rdm (specializing in passive support over active support). It'd be pretty neat.

[Seriha]

Traded it for Dia III? Group II merits didn't even exist by the time FFXI hit the States, and Cure V was gone by then. If I recall correctly, it was more like RDM had been listed on it in the DATs much like we see WHM for Addle, but the cap at the time hadn't reached that point when the game was JP only. Its poofing coincided with the slight bump in sword skill and moving Enfeebling up to A+. We also apparently lost Marksmanship, which seems like a strange holdover if you look to a past Bastok Campaign unit, but I'm kinda willing to let an aesthetic slide there given the whole Musketeer theme.

[Greatguardian]

95% certain that Red Mage had Cure V still after NA release. If not, d'oh. But both spells caused a fair amount of uproar from the communities. White Mages were especially pissed since they definitely had access to Dia 3 for a while and then lost it when G2s were implemented.

I'm also 99% positive that my ye olde Bradyguide still lists RDM as having Cure V and Flash as late as 2004, though that thing has always been lulzworthy. I can go back and scour some update notes if it matters.

[Aurara]

Cure V and Flash for RDM were traded for Refresh

[Seriha]

Can't say it does since we've gone far, far, far longer without than it just suddenly poofing like SE made an oopsie.

[Aurara]

Actually, Brady guide has RDM having dia3 cure V and flash lol

[Hyrist]

The past of Cure V and Flash is kind of irrelevant in this case.

Flash we'll never get back. It's a tanking tool and they want RDM to be devoid of those.

Cure V however, as the levels continue to rise there's really no reason 'not' to have it except to solidifiy WHM's place as the best healer in the game.

However, I do believe the primary concerns against it isn't competition with white mage so much as competition within the Roles Red Mage can play. They want to be primarily enhancing/enfeebling/support, not 'main healer.' Problem is there's not enough support spells and workable debuffs to fill that role against Cure V. And if they do, then add Cure V, then there might be actual party conflict issues in situations when a hefty helping of cure isn't needed to the degree a WHM offers. They'll just try to pile it all on RDM so they can have another DD on the team.

[Greatguardian]

If a Red Mage can do it all, and it improves the group's total strength by making room for another DD or support class (brd, dnc, cor, w/e), I'm all for it. It's not like mage jobs are supposed to be easy. White Mage is still a way better healer and has better passive support spells, so it's not like they'd lose their niche.

[Aurara]

The past of Cure V and Flash is kind of irrelevant in this case.

Was more of a "oh hey i have a brady guide let me check!" kind of situation.

[Greatguardian]

Was more of a "oh hey i have a brady guide let me check!" kind of situation.

Pretty much this. I wish I still had mine. It lost its cover and like the first 15 pages due to wear and tear, then got stolen when my house was broken into a few years back. Like, who the hell steals a beaten up ffxi bradyguide?

On topic, Rdm should totally get Flash back too so that they can make use of their awesome native Divine skill.

[Swords]

However, I do believe the primary concerns against it isn't competition with white mage so much as competition within the Roles Red Mage can play. They want to be primarily enhancing/enfeebling/support, not 'main healer.' Problem is there's not enough support spells and workable debuffs to fill that role against Cure V. And if they do, then add Cure V, then there might be actual party conflict issues in situations when a hefty helping of cure isn't needed to the degree a WHM offers. They'll just try to pile it all on RDM so they can have another DD on the team.

In other words, its ToAU all over again. I could easily see happening if we were given Cure V. Once we stray out of Abyssea Cure IV would have a greater impact on a players HP, we could alternate between IV and V and since RDM would still have the most efficient MP system of all the jobs it would be considered best for long drawn out parties or events.

Frankly when they had took away all those spells they gave RDM originally they had good reason too. After RDM's redesign, RDM for the most part had very stagnet/limited growth in updates. Considering how powerful they were pre 76+ you could only imagine how stupid powerful they would be if they still held onto gemstones like Cure V, Flash, and Regen II back then.

[Supersun]

If a Red Mage can do it all, and it improves the group's total strength by making room for another DD or support class (brd, dnc, cor, w/e), I'm all for it. It's not like mage jobs are supposed to be easy. White Mage is still a way better healer and has better passive support spells, so it's not like they'd lose their niche.

I have a better idea.

How about they actually create challenging content that requires more then one job with heals per group.

I mean if your "main healer" is a hybrid that's probably your clue that the content is too easy.

[Jandel]

I will not mind single buff that are rdm only.
I'm being a selfish red mage, I avoided ToAU pts (those pt where the evil!) and hated every time I had to cycle haste (or refresh).
Saying this, I'm waiting what SE'll give us in the updates.

Cure V would be awesome, I think: switch to MP gear -> convert -> cure V and you're full hp with only one spell and you probably use the mp in your MP gear, those you normally would not have in "buff/debuff" set. Sadly cure V will make again rdm a main healer (at least, outside abyssea). This is the main reason that I don't like the idea of having it. So yes, please SE leave cure 5 and 6 to whm :D

I don't mind in self only buff (I'm the first lady here, you cant have my awesome gain-str *evil laught*) but I understand that there are player out there who want to be helpfull in pts.
Hastega and Refresga will be really nice indeed, but smns have their hastega...
What about some buff that transform the damage dealt in an elemental damage? Not really an enspell but something similar to Formless strike. A set of spell (one for each elemental like enspell) single target like haste (I will hate them, I know, another cycle). It will be usefull in mob like jellys, highly physical resistant but it will be difficult to implement though.

What do you think about repose on rdm? It's based on divine magic skill... Will rdm be too powerful with 3 sleep spells (one of which will be less effective because of rdm's divine skill)? It's a debuff too :p

And of course, I want new debuff rawr! But your suggestions seem so cool I don't have one to compete to :p
And please SE, why I have to put at least 3 merit to make paralyze II work better than paralyze?

Please, don't be too rought in commenting what I said! I hope it make some sense (English is not my language)
Thanks!

[Swords]

I have a better idea.

How about they actually create challenging content that requires more then one job with heals per group.

I mean if your "main healer" is a hybrid that's probably your clue that the content is too easy.

It has more to do with the context of max hp and how long a person's mp pool will last.

In Abyssea where HP easily breaks 2k-3kHP a RDM's Cure IV really can't keep up when a mobs doing 2-3x what you can heal per cure. WHM's on the other hand can easily fill that void with Cure V and VI, and then fall back on Atmas for Refresh thereby giving them a never-ending supply of mp.

Outside however the gameplan changes, mp is finite and WHM's cannot be so reckless with their mp. Additionally HP pools drop to roughly half of what they are in Abyssea effectively doubling Cure IV's impact. Being RDM is still the best job at controlling MP spending they can outlast any mage on the field. This was a big thing back in the ToAU days, and why many WHM's were shafted even though they had Cure V. Giving RDM Cure V would likely cause a redux of the ToAU days, not because RDM is the better healer, but because RDM has all the mp resources to keep going for much longer periods of time.

[Greatguardian]

I have a better idea.

How about they actually create challenging content that requires more then one job with heals per group.

I mean if your "main healer" is a hybrid that's probably your clue that the content is too easy.

Not all content can be hard. But for hard content, there's no reason to shove main healing on a Red Mage. White Mages are better, but Red Mages are still support classes (note I said Whm never lost their niche, eg hard content). There is still a huge support gap to fill, especially on hard content, despite having a White Mage.

Your language and word choices are suggesting one of two things, I'm not sure which. Either A) It's hard and/or disingenuous to allocate so much work to Red Mage, or B) Red Mage being allocated a role that requires fulltime casting is not fair because it does not allow them to melee.

If it's neither, that's fine. But in the case of A, even among harder content the Red Mage is going to be expected to do everything they were doing before. White Mage can't simply "take over" and be hunky dory. Support mages support, Red Mage is still a significantly more efficient Haster for example. The Red Mage itself is not doing less work with a White Mage there, because the content that required a White + Red mage is harder than the content where a Red Mage can do everything.

If it's a matter of Red Mage being essentially locked out of melee'ing because they're being assigned roles assuming that they are able to fulltime cast, that's just never going to change. Efficient people are always going to want to be efficient. Magic swordsmen are not efficient, and it takes a damn good one to even think about filling a full support role while melee'ing. Durable support mages with high MP efficiency are, and it's a lot harder to screw up.

[Supersun]

Missed my point. (Or more likely I worded it poorly)

Was more a nitpick against SE and things they can do to make content more difficult but don't ever do.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I thought that's what VW was? they just screwed up by not making it very rewarding.

[Supersun]

You can still get by with only one healer given he has enough MP/tick.

[Daniel]

this might have already been mentioned but I saw on another thread that someone had an idea for making the buffs a rdm has aura based. This is absolutely brilliant in my opinion. Higher radius for higher enhancing skill. WIN >_> Also cure V yes please.

[cidbahamut]

this might have already been mentioned but I saw on another thread that someone had an idea for making the buffs a rdm has aura based. This is absolutely brilliant in my opinion. Higher radius for higher enhancing skill. WIN >_> Also cure V yes please.

We also covered why it wouldn't change anything on content harder than exp mobs.

[Supersun]

We also covered why it wouldn't change anything on content harder than exp mobs.
If all we are getting are aura buffs of preexisting single target spells that we already have, them yes.

Would single target spells be safer then aura spells, sure.

But that element of risk would be justification for a more powerful spells.

[Seriha]

Magic swordsmen are not efficient.

Which is partially why I go bananas on the haters. The moment it IS efficient, they'll accept it. Why the dogged tooth and nail fighting takes place at times is, quite frankly, mind boggling. Coincidentally, they are also often the ones the least willing to try and make ideas work, as evidenced by Cid's shooting down of the aura idea, mainly because it's not useful in the back. Duh. The back-line game doesn't really need much help.

[Urteil]

Magic penetration is almost as hiliarious as one of the people in here suggesting that you get native quick-cast.



Allow me to elaborate:

HAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA.

[SNK]

Which is partially why I go bananas on the haters. The moment it IS efficient, they'll accept it.

That's the problem. After all these years in anything that's considered hard to deal with where a MNK, NIN or PLD would be needed, it still isn't.

[saevel]

Traded it for Dia III? Group II merits didn't even exist by the time FFXI hit the States, and Cure V was gone by then. If I recall correctly, it was more like RDM had been listed on it in the DATs much like we see WHM for Addle, but the cap at the time hadn't reached that point when the game was JP only. Its poofing coincided with the slight bump in sword skill and moving Enfeebling up to A+. We also apparently lost Marksmanship, which seems like a strange holdover if you look to a past Bastok Campaign unit, but I'm kinda willing to let an aesthetic slide there given the whole Musketeer theme.

Greatguardian is pulling sh!t out of his neither regions. RDM was originally listed as being on Cure V / Regen II / Flash and Diaga II. Dispel / Gravity / Refresh / Phalanx didn't exist. Dia I / II / Diaga was divide magic. RDM's primary subbed /WAR or /WHM. RDM had a B in enfeebling magic. "End Game" was Rok and AF quests, the Healing Staff was considered the most epic WHM item in the game. The XP from 50 to 60 was 40K+ per level, and when you died you lost 10% of the required TNL with no cap. It was nothing for people to lose 5~15K on a bad day. Ninja was speculated upon like Geomancer and Time Mage.

And the only English speaking players were those like myself who was playing as an alt on my friends account with him doing the translation for me.

RDM had issues because it was considered a WAR-1 or a WHM-1, so to give it it's own identy SE changed the Dia line to enfeebling magic (this is why we have no divine spells), gave RDM refresh, dispel, gravity and phalanx. This is why either WHM or BLM get every enfeebling magic earlier then RDM, except those two spells. Upped RDM's enfeebling magic to A+ and thus was born the "RDM is master enfeebler" idea, master of exactly two spells. We competed with BRD's for the "support role" of "refresher", basically we were invited to refresh the WHM and BLM's because MP was incredibly precious. BRD's use to b1tch because they didn't get a 3mp/tick refresh combo till after 50, while RDM got it at 41. March wasn't even though of, and haste was kinda ignored. I'm talking last 2002 here after the JP PC release (Nov 2002). My original character was made shortly after I arrived in South Korea in March 2003, my room mate was Japanese American and spoke Japanese, thus greatly enabled me to experience the game although I needed him to translate everything for me and guide me along.

Then the big news, this first expansion client and native English client, and their going to raise the cap to 75. Everyone went nuts, RDM's thought they'd finally get Cure V / Regen II / Flash and Diaga II. Except when the update came we noticed, RDM wasn't on the scrolls anymore. And there was this sudden influx of all these English speaking newbs running around messing everything up. We thought the NA client would have it's own servers, not that they would be intermixed with the already developed JP servers. Outrage ensued and thus the "JP Onry" world began. This was October 2003, I had been playing about six months but due to my status as a "second character" on my friends account it was almost all limited to XP and messing around. A few months after the NA client was released I broke down and decided to make my own Character and thus Saevel on Lakshmi was born.

And that's basically the birth of the English Speaking FFXI. Anyone who tells you they were playing in English prior to RoTZ is being very economical with the truth. You could type in English characters, but all the menu's, Item names and NPC dialog was Japanese. NA Client and RoTZ was released together, and thus unless someone was playing on a friends account, nearly no NA's have any experience with RDM's original incarnation. This also is why the Brady guide had so many errors with the spell list, they went off data SE gave them from 02/03 but before SE changed that data at Zilart release.

[Seriha]

So, I was sitting on the john pondering all the recent arguments here, on Alla, and so on, when the thought of a possible new trait hit me.

Attrition: Reduces the effects of debilitating magic received based on currently active enhancement magic.

I'd considered making Composure active a requirement, sort of like how WHMs can't get Enlight with Misery up, but that's not really the focus. Anyway, was thinking up to a possible 80% reduction in duration and potency for any enfeebles we're inflicted with. Protect, Shell, Haste, Refresh, Regen, Stoneskin, Phalanx, Aquaveil, Enspell, Spikes, Gain, Barelement, Barstatus, and Blink give us 14 possible spells we can have active on ourselves at any given moment. That could be 5.7% per buff, but I'm thinking that kind of low for starters and overall promoting a bit of high maintenance to keep this effect at its higher levels. Instead, I'm thinking more like 15/13/11/9/7/5/5/5/5/5 where 10 buffs would give you the 80%, 5 would be 55%, and so on. Thus, a 20% slow that lasts 3 minutes would instead be 4% for 36s.

"But if you're in the back you should never get hit! Herpderp!" Well, in the FFXI I play, some mobs have TP moves greater than 20 yalms, a BLM can pull hate quite suddenly and mess up positioning, or with mobs today being hate reset happy, among other quirks, accidents happen. When your backline gets slept/petrified/muted/stunned/etc and nobody up front can help, you might be looking at a nice chunk of time of just watching your party slowly fall apart. Enter the more quickly recovered RDM to help keep things on the up.

Now, if we wanted to be greedy and apply this to recent talk on auras, this defensive mechanism could possibly be passed on to party members within 5 yalms of the RDM, receiving the benefits the RDM themselves would even if that particular player has fewer buffs active. So, in some cases, the WHM could just focus on primary status cures while others will possibly have worn or be close to by the time they throw out 2-3 singles.

Anyway, only magic buffs could trigger this effect, so no songs, rolls, ninjutsu, or other sources contributing. Dispel-happy mobs would require some consideration on how you act. Not sure how this would handle Doom, but I'm thinking it'd add to the timer so 80% would give you 18 clicks to get it removed instead of 10. Could even make it easier to remove, but whatever.

/inb4omgoverpowered

[Supersun]

Not a bad idea.

My idea was just giving Rdms T2 Bar Spells that would actually give us enough resistance to actually prevent a status effect from anything higher then an EP. I mean toss in another 100 resistance and we should be able to resist most of those status effects.

[cidbahamut]

So, I was sitting on the john pondering all the recent arguments here, on Alla, and so on, when the thought of a possible new trait hit me.

Attrition: Reduces the effects of debilitating magic received based on currently active enhancement magic.

I'd considered making Composure active a requirement, sort of like how WHMs can't get Enlight with Misery up, but that's not really the focus. Anyway, was thinking up to a possible 80% reduction in duration and potency for any enfeebles we're inflicted with. Protect, Shell, Haste, Refresh, Regen, Stoneskin, Phalanx, Aquaveil, Enspell, Spikes, Gain, Barelement, Barstatus, and Blink give us 14 possible spells we can have active on ourselves at any given moment. That could be 5.7% per buff, but I'm thinking that kind of low for starters and overall promoting a bit of high maintenance to keep this effect at its higher levels. Instead, I'm thinking more like 15/13/11/9/7/5/5/5/5/5 where 10 buffs would give you the 80%, 5 would be 55%, and so on. Thus, a 20% slow that lasts 3 minutes would instead be 4% for 36s.

"But if you're in the back you should never get hit! Herpderp!" Well, in the FFXI I play, some mobs have TP moves greater than 20 yalms, a BLM can pull hate quite suddenly and mess up positioning, or with mobs today being hate reset happy, among other quirks, accidents happen. When your backline gets slept/petrified/muted/stunned/etc and nobody up front can help, you might be looking at a nice chunk of time of just watching your party slowly fall apart. Enter the more quickly recovered RDM to help keep things on the up.

Now, if we wanted to be greedy and apply this to recent talk on auras, this defensive mechanism could possibly be passed on to party members within 5 yalms of the RDM, receiving the benefits the RDM themselves would even if that particular player has fewer buffs active. So, in some cases, the WHM could just focus on primary status cures while others will possibly have worn or be close to by the time they throw out 2-3 singles.


You do realize this wouldn't change anything right? It'd just be another safety net for backline mages.

Don't get me wrong, it's a neat idea and I like it, but it's not going to magically make the playerbase willing to let you up front.