Job Adjustments Manifesto (SMN)

[Vangoh]

So since SE actually asked us to suggest ideas here goes mine.

I really doubt SE gonna add new sprites for new avatars. Even though I REALLY REALLY want them to add actual new avatars they probably won't because of limitations and we all know that is true. Now with that left aside we already got a few sprites left unused even though I'm not too thrilled about Cait Sith and Atomos I will gladly take them because is better than nothing at all. But they also have Odin and Alexander left.

Yes they are 2 hour avatars but as another post I saw back there I don't see why can't we have them as summonable avatars without their 2 hour blood pacts Zantetsuken and Perfect Defense. They still have an arsenal of blood pacts left we could use if they let us have them for more than 5 seconds out. One more thing I'm probably sure they will add later on just gonna remind them Diabolos still missing Cacodemonia and Nightmare needs to be more powerful seriously.

I guess it doesn't hurt to wish for new avatars either so IF they do decide to add new avatars I would like to see is Madeen (light based, original from FF9), Phoenix sounds like it would be very useful offensive and defensive. I know we've been over this a bunch of times but for God's sake let us have freaking Bahamut already. They need to drop their big ego about the "great avatars" being too good for us to handle. I think that label was destroyed when they raised the level cap and we started kicking those terrestial avatars' asses like nothing lol.

OK about the ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts. It is not such a bad idea actually BUT its sounds like a huge drainage of MP so this is what I suggest: Make this ability do what it does but instead of shorting the recast time of blood pacts let us have a charge of blood pact, like SCH and DNC have charges, it will cost us some mp to add a charge and the mp needed to do a BP.

How about Astral Seal? It's sort of like Ele Seal and Divine Seal but for avatars. When calling an avatar with Astral Seal it will come out with enhanced stats attk/eva/def/acc/mattk/madef and all that. 15 min recast just like all other seals. If that is too much then let Astral Seal work to "enhance the potency of the next" blood pact.

OK that is all I have to say for now. Suggestions?

[Malamasala]

So since SE actually asked us to suggest ideas here goes mine.


They did? Didn't notice that. Though they've gotten free ideas from me the last decade, so they better start reading them instead of asking for them.


OK that is all I have to say for now. Suggestions?

Of our own, or regarding yours?

In any case there are two key points to making a job playable.

1) Cost efficiency
2) Activity

Lets start backwards with 2. The job needs to be active. COR has a 20 min Random Deal job ability. How often do I use it? Uhm... once every Einherjar? That is about how often I've used it the last 5 years. 20 min means a useless ability. Stepping down in time, we have Divine Seal 10 min job ability. When do we use it? Uhm, at very rare moments when a divine seal curaga II is worth the hate gain. As we can see, the longer the timer, the less often we bother to use it as it is ready. A few exceptions would be 5 min Siphon and 10 min convert, both too beneficial to neglect even with their timers.

A reasonable delay on an ability that is going to effect a 1 min recast ability though, needs to be shorter than 1 min. BRDs single target ability is the best example. It is ready when you need it, instead of being something ridiculous like 15 min recast that you have to sit and wait on and can only apply 1 ranged song each time. I'd propose 30 seconds recast, which goes hand in hand with a -15 delay on BP timer.

The roundabout issue here though is that you get a new ridiculous system that involves using one JA before you use another JA. Basically you turn SMN into DNC where you have to get finishing moves before you can use your abilities. First reduct BP timer, then use it. Repeat.

This means the idea to begin with is flawed. You can't make a BP timer reduction as an ability. It needs to be a trait. Suggestion:

Blood Sacrifice - Allows triggering Pacts while delay isn't over.
> 50% of the delay left. Lose HP and MP. According to pact cost * 0.5. All hate to SMN.
< 50% of the delay left. Lose MP. According to pact cost * 0.5. All hate as usual to pet.

Example:

BP timer is 45 after gear on activation. You use Earthen Armor followed by Earthen ward within 10 seconds. Since 35 > 45*0.5 = 23, you lose Earthen wards half cost in HP and MP. (About 50 MP/HP). Hate is no issue.

BP timer is 45 etc. You use Predator Claws followed by Predator Claws. You lose 70 HP, pay 210 MP for second predator claws (on top of the 140 you paid for first one, meaning a quick 350 MP spent) and you just got 1.5k hate on Garuda and 1.5k hate on yourself, and you are now co-tanking with your pet.

Tweaks should be done, but I think something along these lines would vitalize Summoner more than if you gave each Summoner player a 1 kg gold ingot in real life.

[Razushu]

They did? Didn't notice that. Though they've gotten free ideas from me the last decade, so they better start reading them instead of asking for them.



Of our own, or regarding yours?

In any case there are two key points to making a job playable.

1) Cost efficiency
2) Activity

Lets start backwards with 2. The job needs to be active. COR has a 20 min Random Deal job ability. How often do I use it? Uhm... once every Einherjar? That is about how often I've used it the last 5 years. 20 min means a useless ability. Stepping down in time, we have Divine Seal 10 min job ability. When do we use it? Uhm, at very rare moments when a divine seal curaga II is worth the hate gain. As we can see, the longer the timer, the less often we bother to use it as it is ready. A few exceptions would be 5 min Siphon and 10 min convert, both too beneficial to neglect even with their timers.

A reasonable delay on an ability that is going to effect a 1 min recast ability though, needs to be shorter than 1 min. BRDs single target ability is the best example. It is ready when you need it, instead of being something ridiculous like 15 min recast that you have to sit and wait on and can only apply 1 ranged song each time. I'd propose 30 seconds recast, which goes hand in hand with a -15 delay on BP timer.

The roundabout issue here though is that you get a new ridiculous system that involves using one JA before you use another JA. Basically you turn SMN into DNC where you have to get finishing moves before you can use your abilities. First reduct BP timer, then use it. Repeat.

This means the idea to begin with is flawed. You can't make a BP timer reduction as an ability. It needs to be a trait. Suggestion:

Blood Sacrifice - Allows triggering Pacts while delay isn't over.
> 50% of the delay left. Lose HP and MP. According to pact cost * 0.5. All hate to SMN.
< 50% of the delay left. Lose MP. According to pact cost * 0.5. All hate as usual to pet.

Example:

BP timer is 45 after gear on activation. You use Earthen Armor followed by Earthen ward within 10 seconds. Since 35 > 45*0.5 = 23, you lose Earthen wards half cost in HP and MP. (About 50 MP/HP). Hate is no issue.

BP timer is 45 etc. You use Predator Claws followed by Predator Claws. You lose 70 HP, pay 210 MP for second predator claws (on top of the 140 you paid for first one, meaning a quick 350 MP spent) and you just got 1.5k hate on Garuda and 1.5k hate on yourself, and you are now co-tanking with your pet.

Tweaks should be done, but I think something along these lines would vitalize Summoner more than if you gave each Summoner player a 1 kg gold ingot in real life.

F' the job adjustments I'll take the gold.


On a serious note aside from the hate on the SMN, I like your idea here.

[Diemond]

SMN
an ability to shed hate to avatars
decreased BP timers is a must, but the penalty to giving up mp is bad. since the decrease in timer is a double edged sword. where we run out of mp even faster while we still struggle to decide which buffs the party need and be able to get in 1 damaging BP and keep party members buffed.
Pheonix would be a much better add than both atamos and catsith. with the ability to raise in an area effect not just party members. which would be awesome for besieged, campaigns..etc

[Razushu]

Sorry I meant hate as in emnity.


Blood Sacrifice - Allows triggering Pacts while delay isn't over.
> 50% of the delay left. Lose HP and MP. According to pact cost * 0.5. All hate to SMN.
< 50% of the delay left. Lose MP. According to pact cost * 0.5. All hate as usual to pet.


I don't think SE hates us, they just seem to be overly cautious when it comes to boosting pet jobs.

[Korpg]

I think you are the perfect example as to why there is anonymity for company employees.

Just because you don't like what a certain aspect of the game is, you shouldn't go out and kill anyone. Not for anything less than...well....murder.

But if everyone abides by that rule, there would be no murder, now would there? But that is another debate.

[Malamasala]

I think you are the perfect example as to why there is anonymity for company employees.

Just because you don't like what a certain aspect of the game is, you shouldn't go out and kill anyone. Not for anything less than...well....murder.

But if everyone abides by that rule, there would be no murder, now would there? But that is another debate.

At least they can avoid death by simply answering a message board question. Not everyone has such an easy way to avoid murder. Not like it seems like SE would say anything on these boards even to avoid murder. It is all secret and surprises when it comes to job changes.

[Sasaraixx]

On a serious note aside from the hate on the SMN, I like your idea here.

Agreed. The hate on the SMN is not a great idea in my mind, particularly because we have no way of shedding hate onto our pets, unlike BST. I'm also not too keen on losing HP either. I think the ability should be on a 1 minute timer and allow the delay to be lowered to 30 seconds before factoring in gear. That would basically allow you to double BP every minute if you choose. It can help you participate in zerg fights, but you will be giving up quite a bit of MP to do it. I better start working on some more refresh gear!

I'd also like an ability to shed hate onto the avatars/spirits or give them a Cover type ability.

I too wanted Phoenix but we'll just have to wait and see what they do with these two. I haven't done WoTG so I know nothing about Caitsith's moves.

I still think Avatar's favor is terribly broken and our Wards need buffing. But that's just me!

[Malamasala]

Agreed. The hate on the SMN is not a great idea in my mind, particularly because we have no way of shedding hate onto our pets, unlike BST.

Your way of shedding hate is waiting until more than half your BP timer has passed. It is just an alternative, not something that forces you to spam Predator claws every 5 seconds and die.


I still think Avatar's favor is terribly broken and our Wards need buffing. But that's just me!

No, that is everyone. Everyone except SE.

[Razushu]

Your way of shedding hate is waiting until more than half your BP timer has passed. It is just an alternative, not something that forces you to spam Predator claws every 5 seconds and die.



No, that is everyone. Everyone except SE.

SMN is a hate free DD though, and waiting a few seconds isn't going to shed 1/2 the hate from a predator claws. An ability that gives hate to the SMN isn't great. Your idea is fine until you start messing with hate, I always thought there should be something to do with HP cost involved for "Blood" Pacts. An Ability like yours is nice but giving the SMN hate would hold it back.

[Soundwave]

****Talking about the actual JA from SE at the current time.

So this is adding something new and technically a fix at the same time. Either way, this could be awesome or just be total fail....and again either way It's another tool in the bag this won't make cripple the job as it is.

[Vangoh]

SE's idea of SMN update seems pretty clear and you know is very hard to change the way they are working things out so right now they want to A) give us new avatars and B) gives us an ability that let us do more than 1 BP per minute. If you guys are just looking to only criticize ideas talking them down and not give actual constructive suggestions then SE will most certainly disregard this thread and give us whatever 'cause no one actually came up with a bright idea for SMN update. Let's resume and talk about what we want/need.

[Malamasala]

SMN is a hate free DD though, and waiting a few seconds isn't going to shed 1/2 the hate from a predator claws. An ability that gives hate to the SMN isn't great. Your idea is fine until you start messing with hate, I always thought there should be something to do with HP cost involved for "Blood" Pacts. An Ability like yours is nice but giving the SMN hate would hold it back.

You should re-read my post. I stated that <50% of the delay left, no hate on SMN. So waiting would give you no hate from Predator Claws. Not because hate decays, but because you never got the hate to begin with.

It is an attempt to please people who'd say "But if you spam Predator claws without getting hate, it would be unbalanced". And I happen to agree with them that doing 10k damage in perhaps 15 seconds, and then just resting MP safely would be a bit unfair.

[Malamasala]

If you guys are just looking to only criticize ideas talking them down and not give actual constructive suggestions then SE will most certainly disregard this thread and give us whatever 'cause no one actually came up with a bright idea for SMN update. Let's resume and talk about what we want/need.

I think we are pretty good at constructive criticism. SE should have a hard time not finding at least 2-3 threads on the front page with suggestions for improving SMN.

Only issue tends to be when we discuss original ways of thinking. But as long as we stay on simple terms like Perpetuation, BP timer and such, we all get along fairly well.

[Razushu]

You should re-read my post. I stated that <50% of the delay left, no hate on SMN. So waiting would give you no hate from Predator Claws. Not because hate decays, but because you never got the hate to begin with.

It is an attempt to please people who'd say "But if you spam Predator claws without getting hate, it would be unbalanced". And I happen to agree with them that doing 10k damage in perhaps 15 seconds, and then just resting MP safely would be a bit unfair.

I would think the MP cost would be balance enough. 10K Damage in 15 secs outside Abyssea would be about 4 PCs which is like 700MP before whatever the cost for the upcoming ability is which could leave you on close to empty refresh abilities not withstanding.

[Sasaraixx]

Your way of shedding hate is waiting until more than half your BP timer has passed. It is just an alternative, not something that forces you to spam Predator claws every 5 seconds and die.

That is a way of not accumulating the hate at all. It is not a means of shedding it. I don't see the point in adding hate to the SMN when we have been a hateless DD up until this point. It would also make the ability unusable during solo and make it harder for our avatars to tank in party. I see your point about keeping the ability balanced, but I don't see the need of adding hate to the SMN when there is already an increased MP cost to go along with the ability. That and the fact that I don't think the ability will even let us do a predator claws every 5 seconds.

[Sasaraixx]

If you guys are just looking to only criticize ideas talking them down and not give actual constructive suggestions then SE will most certainly disregard this thread and give us whatever 'cause no one actually came up with a bright idea for SMN update. Let's resume and talk about what we want/need.

We are talking about what we want/need and I have not seen anything yet that has not been constructive. If there is an aspect of a suggestion that I do not like and I explain my reasoning then that has value. The idea that if you don't have a new idea of your own then you cannot offer critique of other's is very flawed. I disagree with Malamasala on one particular area. That doesn't mean that his/her idea has no value or that I'm complaining just for the sake of complaining. You also missed that we agree on other things as well.

The dev team is smart enough to figure out the issues we are having by seeing where/how we disagree. They already have a vision for the job. They aren't going to give us "whatever" because no one in this thread came up with an idea that everyone supported. That is overly simplistic.

[Defiledsickness]

i think they messed up with elemental trial stave's so they are trying to lower our mp with abilities. pet jobs are invincible inside abyssea but im a little worried about what will happen to Smn when they get out of aby...

cait sith and atomos dont seem like avatars that can follow you around well, so im guessing more 2hour only stuff. cait sith might be an alternative to carbuncle at least. he does do Holy in WotG mission, but he has more Blm spells.

i'd definitely be fine with a 2hour Bahamut. for Pheonix they already named the samurai from CoP's weapon Pheonix and it's back in the far east. they'd have to add a new area like they did with Whitegate. (could add the male mithra home too). honestly smn playstyle doesnt leave too much room for new ideas, just new spells :P imo

[Vangoh]

honestly smn playstyle doesnt leave too much room for new ideas, just new spells :P imo

And this is coming from a BLU main lol. SMN has more potential than you think, and probably we all see this because we like the job and it's our main for some reason.

What I meant before is that the devs will most likely give us Cait Sith and Atomos just because they already have the dats for it, so if we think about it we should all just accept it 'cause we probably won't get more avatars than this.

About the hate thing...not gonna lie, it would be nice to have some sort of hate manager but I don't think that's our main issue or priority as SMN and we should probably get something more useful than a JA that let us swap hate or whatever. If what SE wants is to let us be more active in our role then I will again suggest something else lol. How about separate each BP's timer and make them have their own timer? I don't think that is too overpowered IMO although the MP consumption will be greater so maybe they should also lower the cost of mp when doing a BP. I mean what they are looking to do is to add an new ability right?

[Malamasala]

What I meant before is that the devs will most likely give us Cait Sith and Atomos just because they already have the dats for it, so if we think about it we should all just accept it 'cause we probably won't get more avatars than this.

I still don't understand their ranking of powers.

Atomos: The ability to travel in time, change history, remove monsters from existence, is OK to have.
Bahamut: The ability to command wyrms and use mega flare to possibly kill something close to you, too strong.

While I admit, a mandragora beating Bahamut would look silly. But isn't it the same for Diabolos, Ifrit, etc.? It isn't like seeing a worm defeat an avatar has been an issue in the past. I can't even count the amount of times Carbuncle has been defeated and resummoned.

Also, The level cap will not be raised, Bahamut will not be a summon. These are SE's words. If we ever get to level 76, we have a shot at Bahamut. And we are well past it. Now it is just SE hating on Summoner that prevents us from having Bahamut.

[Korpg]

Look at Bahamut. If you ever did the BCNM on him.

Its kindof hard to have an avatar when he is the size of a zone, you know. He wouldn't be able to fit into most places.

[Razushu]

I still don't understand their ranking of powers.

Atomos: The ability to travel in time, change history, remove monsters from existence, is OK to have.
Bahamut: The ability to command wyrms and use mega flare to possibly kill something close to you, too strong.

While I admit, a mandragora beating Bahamut would look silly. But isn't it the same for Diabolos, Ifrit, etc.? It isn't like seeing a worm defeat an avatar has been an issue in the past. I can't even count the amount of times Carbuncle has been defeated and resummoned.

Also, The level cap will not be raised, Bahamut will not be a summon. These are SE's words. If we ever get to level 76, we have a shot at Bahamut. And we are well past it. Now it is just SE hating on Summoner that prevents us from having Bahamut.

I think it's more to do with the fame Bahamut enjoys from the fans. They don't want to weaken him to make him summonable in this game.

Bahamut has always been one of the "OMG that's b*d*ss!" summons in FFs where as Atomos doesn't really have a following. They can implement Bahamut as a summon in single player FFs because they can make him as powerful as they want and there's not much of a balance issue, but when you add multiplayer it would be hard to balance him one way or the other without dissappointing someone. They'd even have a hard time balancing him with our other avatars.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to have access to the Wyrm King even just as a 2HR. I can however understand why they don't feel they can give him to us.

[Korpg]

Bahamut would be the only reason why I would approve of any 2hr only Avatars.

[Vangoh]

I still don't understand their ranking of powers.

Atomos: The ability to travel in time, change history, remove monsters from existence, is OK to have.
Bahamut: The ability to command wyrms and use mega flare to possibly kill something close to you, too strong.

While I admit, a mandragora beating Bahamut would look silly. But isn't it the same for Diabolos, Ifrit, etc.? It isn't like seeing a worm defeat an avatar has been an issue in the past. I can't even count the amount of times Carbuncle has been defeated and resummoned.

Also, The level cap will not be raised, Bahamut will not be a summon. These are SE's words. If we ever get to level 76, we have a shot at Bahamut. And we are well past it. Now it is just SE hating on Summoner that prevents us from having Bahamut.

I totally agree with this and not everyone is a Bahamut fan although it would be nice to have a poll to see which is your favorite avatar of all lol. Yes he is a big as heck but so is Alexander and Oidn, look at Alexander...they made him so small is ridiculously funny. I would not mind at all having a smaller version of Bahamut and I don't think he's as powerful as they're thinking. Diabolos is the ruler of Dynamis, Fenrir took an entire army of Yagudos himself, I did not payed attention to the WoTG story line but come on...Odin can 1-hit-KO you I'm pretty sure being the wyrm king is not as glamorous as others sound.

Who knows maybe they will give Bahamut to us after all, SE is only kidding themselves when they say the almighty Bahamut shouldn't fall off his "glory" which to many of us he already did a looooooooooooooooong time ago since the release of COP.

[Malamasala]

Or we could finally get to summon that guy over in Tenshodo. Gilgamesh!

[Vangoh]

Or we could finally get to summon that guy over in Tenshodo. Gilgamesh!

lol Everyone would be like "zomg he's an avatar?!!!??!??!" Yeah sure why not just for the lols.

[Arciel]

Bahamut would be the only reason why I would approve of any 2hr only Avatars.

seconded.

it wouldnt even surprise me if he becomes a lv99 Astral Flow only avatar.
but his damage would really need to hit the roof it its going to be worth anything

[Sasaraixx]

Mocchi has posted SMN notes on the JP forum.

I'm a bit wiped, but here are some highlights. (Full translation from the devs to follow I'm sure.)

Mocchi first starts off by saying that there are a lot of opinions regarding Blood Pacts (effect, duration) in particular so they will be addressed in the next post.

- reiterating the image of Atomos be 2hr only and Cait Sith as a normal avatar. They are still testing though.
- No plans to implement "Stay" for any jobs outside BST (Sorry Tarage!)
- Someone asked for clarification about the proposed BP timer reduction ability. Mocchi gave an example of expending a fixed amount of MP to reset the timer for the next pact. It's just an example and the idea could drastically change.
-They don't want to add unique stats/characteristics to avatars as they are afraid it would lead to some not being used at all. (Um, have they not seen the Garuda/Shiva domination of the last year?)
-No plans to implement a charge system
-"Give avatars enspell and natural spike damage." That might be good. We'll think about it.
- Couple questions about unique SMN WS and using avatars during WS. They're looking at WS's for all jobs and will think about the latter as it does fit with the SMN theme.
-"How about strengthening up the Evoker's Ring?" If you can overcome a very difficult battle through a quest . . . Hm, we'll think about it.

I have to say that unlike a lot of the SCH questions, I've seen these asked for a lot on both the EN and JP forums. That alone is encouraging. They're obviously still testing things out, but hopefully some of those suggestions make it in. I'd like to make one though. Regarding possible native enspell/spikes for avatars, I'd actually like it to be tied to a stance or JA (with no penalty!!) The reason for this is that there are monsters who absorb magic and if we did not have the ability to turn off the enspells then our avatars would not be able to melee. It might not be a huge deal, but it could be a problem for solo or NMs that go bersek if you heal them.

Also, I never imagined that the possible BP timer ability would completely reset the timer. I wonder how much MP that would cost . . . /gulp

[Soundwave]

few questions are good...the whole thing is a bit weak though.....I'm surprised nothing was said about spirits, even though I don't care to much for them, however I'd like to see an adjustment...whether we get that or not It won't hurt us as a job.

If it resets the BP timers...the MP used better take a balanced portion from the time that's left from your recast timer.

Just an Exampleeeeeeessss:

I would like to see the new JA work along these examples
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 60 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ 60*2=120 MP
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 50 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ 50*2=100 MP
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 40 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ 40*2=80 MP
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 30 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ 30*2=60 MP
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 20 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ 20*2=40 MP
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 10 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ 10*2=20 MP

Yes Please

I would not want the new JA to work like this

Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 60 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ Fixed MP 100
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 50 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ Fixed MP 100
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 40 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ Fixed MP 100
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 30 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ Fixed MP 100
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 20 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ Fixed MP 100
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 10 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ Fixed MP 100

No Thanks

Will be total crap if it is only a fixed amount of MP, this will feel along the lines of when BP's used to activate when a mob ran out of range. The penalty will be x amount of MP lost if you activate the new JA when the recast is like @ 2 seconds left by accident. I hope this is not the case.

[Draylo]

Make Bahamut summonable, that is all.

[Arciel]

I'd expect the costs to be way more steep.

In fact, I think if such an ability were to exist, its cost would be the equivalent of like the perp cost incurred whilst waiting for the BP to be ready.

On the low side, I'd say it could be something like..
12 (using carby's perp cost) x 15 (number of tics in 45s) = 180mp.
and probably comes with a 1-3 minute recast

[Draylo]

I think it's more to do with the fame Bahamut enjoys from the fans. They don't want to weaken him to make him summonable in this game.

Bahamut has always been one of the "OMG that's b*d*ss!" summons in FFs where as Atomos doesn't really have a following. They can implement Bahamut as a summon in single player FFs because they can make him as powerful as they want and there's not much of a balance issue, but when you add multiplayer it would be hard to balance him one way or the other without dissappointing someone. They'd even have a hard time balancing him with our other avatars.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to have access to the Wyrm King even just as a 2HR. I can however understand why they don't feel they can give him to us.

Bahamut has never been the best smn in almost any FF game though... Yeah hes popular but I don't see why he can't be made into a 2hr only avatar at the least.

[Soundwave]

We already have Odin,

So that now puts us at

Odin - DD
Alex - Support
Atomos - Debuff/Enfeeb

Why add another 2 hour avatar? Atomos should be and will be the last 2 hour avatar...no reason for anymore.

Lets focus on the new JA not Bahamut?

Back on track

I hope the MP is not to steep for the new JA

[Draylo]

No lets discuss giving smn bahamut like it needs to have since its in every FF game basically. Odin is not a "DD" lol, when was the last time someone summoned odin to DD? All the mp you use on him can be done easily with a few Heavenly strikes or p claws. Bahamut doesnt have to be a 2hr avatar, but knowing SE it would be the only way. I wouldn't mind.

[Soundwave]

No lets discuss giving smn bahamut like it needs to have since its in every FF game basically. Odin is not a "DD" lol, when was the last time someone summoned odin to DD? All the mp you use on him can be done easily with a few Heavenly strikes or p claws. Bahamut doesnt have to be a 2hr avatar, but knowing SE it would be the only way. I wouldn't mind.

Odin is just considered the DD 2 hour avatar, yes he is rarely used and could use an update to bring it up to par with the game as of now, but just giving smn's bahamut to do damage much like Odin is not going to fix Odin or fix the situation.

Also why talk about Bahamut when SE has stated back in 06 " http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/topics/backnumber/detail/060330_2.html " when they said he would not be an avatar.

Lets discuss something that's about to change summoner in the upcoming update instead of something that's not even close to being implemented to the game?

If you want a DD avatar Odin should be changed to a controllable Avatar.

[Korpg]

Also why talk about Bahamut when SE has stated back in 06 " http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/topics/backnumber/detail/060330_2.html " when they said he would not be an avatar.


inb4Malasayingthattherewouldbeno76+either.

[Soundwave]

inb4Malasayingthattherewouldbeno76+either.

:cool::cool:


I'd expect the costs to be way more steep.

In fact, I think if such an ability were to exist, its cost would be the equivalent of like the perp cost incurred whilst waiting for the BP to be ready.

On the low side, I'd say it could be something like..
12 (using carby's perp cost) x 15 (number of tics in 45s) = 180mp.
and probably comes with a 1-3 minute recast

The idea of this JA to help keep us on par with other DD/not watching paint dry?

If so this JA won't be used to often if it hinders so much MP, you might as well wait the full recast timer to save MP. Instead of using new JA "x" amount of MP then BP:R MP:mad:

[Draylo]

Odin is just considered the DD 2 hour avatar, yes he is rarely used and could use an update to bring it up to par with the game as of now, but just giving smn's bahamut to do damage much like Odin is not going to fix Odin or fix the situation.

Also why talk about Bahamut when SE has stated back in 06 " http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/topics/backnumber/detail/060330_2.html " when they said he would not be an avatar.

Lets discuss something that's about to change summoner in the upcoming update instead of something that's not even close to being implemented to the game?

If you want a DD avatar Odin should be changed to a controllable Avatar.

SE has said a lot of things and done something else, that is no excuse. They said they would never change level cap from 75 and they have.

[Soundwave]

But it does not alter the fact they have said nothing of Bahamut. I'm not looking for an excuse....I will welcome Bahamut with open arms, its just not fact at the moment.

Plus we are getting two new avatars already. Much sooner time span from when we first got Fenrir to Diabolos to Odin/Alex.

[Draylo]

Okay but that isn't what the OP and this thread is about:


So since SE actually asked us to suggest ideas here goes mine.

[Soundwave]

Indeed, but wouldn't you want to give feed back for something that's about to make a critical stand point to SMN that's about to be added to the game?


I made a thread of my idea as well but was pretty much shot down. So I understand your point of view.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4579-Bahamut-Phoenix-Avatars-%28End-Game-Abilities-New-Uses%29

[Tarage]

- No plans to implement "Stay" for any jobs outside BST (Sorry Tarage!)

FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Please SE PLEASE. Just fix it so Avatar's don't auto-attack sleeping mobs. Come on, that isn't very hard and won't break anything. No one should be upset with that fix.

[Malamasala]

I think the "stay" command part says a lot about SE wanting us to assault our pets.

The problem is that first they need to convince 30 000 players that "avatars feeding TP won't wipe the party".

[Korpg]

I think the "stay" command part says a lot about SE wanting us to assault our pets.

The problem is that first they need to convince 30 000 players that "avatars feeding TP won't wipe the party".

The avatar feeding TP to the party is ok, because the avatar can use the TP to convert it to higher damage.

It is the SMN who uses the TP he feeds to the mob to keep avatars out without adding much damage at all is the problem.

[Arciel]

I'm quite happy that they don't intend to add a "Stay" command, as useful as it may potentially be.

Avatar feeding TP has never been a real issue. All melee jobs feed TP to begin with, and avatars aren't really out of the norm in this sense. However, damage BPs do not feed TP, which is quite a bonus unique to SMN. You could just combine this with either of Assault/Retreat/Release to keep up BP only damage which don't feed TP.

This is, as such, an issue that can be easily be circumvented by player skill.

[Malamasala]

The avatar feeding TP to the party is ok, because the avatar can use the TP to convert it to higher damage.

It is the SMN who uses the TP he feeds to the mob to keep avatars out without adding much damage at all is the problem.

Except if you had ever tried melee yourself, you'd know most mobs you can melee on, you do the same damage/tp as an avatar. However I can't speak for the latest NMs, because if they one shot taru melee, I prefer to be at a safe distance.

But we do not really need this to be our 10th melee SMN thread. Better resume talking about some updates. Like that they should definitely stop making more WHM/BLM/BRD/SMN armors. I'm so fed up with sharing armors with jobs I don't share spells. Might as well give WARs MAB and try and convince them to switch to magic WSes.

[Razushu]

Except if you had ever tried melee yourself, you'd know most mobs you can melee on, you do the same damage/tp as an avatar. However I can't speak for the latest NMs, because if they one shot taru melee, I prefer to be at a safe distance.

But we do not really need this to be our 10th melee SMN thread. Better resume talking about some updates. Like that they should definitely stop making more WHM/BLM/BRD/SMN armors. I'm so fed up with sharing armors with jobs I don't share spells. Might as well give WARs MAB and try and convince them to switch to magic WSes.

They should stop making those armors or start making at least one piece of the set a solid SMN piece. The Augur's set is a good example of a WHM/BLM/BRD/SMN/RDM/SCH armor. The Legs and Body are really nice for SMN and we can get use out of the hands. I would be happy if they continued giving us general mage gear if they start adding stats that actually benefit Summoner on at least one piece.

[Malamasala]

The problem with one situational good piece of a set, is that you end up looking like a hobo. Not a big deal with grips, belts and such, but the more visible parts should all be full sets of SMN gear.

However, in some way SE has managed to make my SMN dress in a white jijitsu gi and have white subligars, so those random items at least match. Just need some red big boxing gloves and perhaps some sandals to finish the setup.

[Korpg]

The problem with one situational good piece of a set, is that you end up looking like a hobo. Not a big deal with grips, belts and such, but the more visible parts should all be full sets of SMN gear.

However, in some way SE has managed to make my SMN dress in a white jijitsu gi and have white subligars, so those random items at least match. Just need some red big boxing gloves and perhaps some sandals to finish the setup.

Why do you care about looks anyway?

[Soundwave]

Why do you care about looks anyway?

Maybe like buying a 30,000 car and you want seat covers but they only make them in pink!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I dunno lol...

I somewhat care for looks but am thankful for AF3, now I can actually match.

[Malamasala]

Why do you care about looks anyway?

Because the game balance is so terrible it is like playing Sniper vs a guy driving a Tank? Might as well be a sniper in cool armor if I'm going to be overrun.

[Sasaraixx]

I just read the Japanese forum and they confirmed the new blood pacts for Carbuncle and Ramuh. Carbuncle is getting a move that removed multiple status ailments from party members. I'm not sure if it heals HP too. I'm too lazy to go back and check lol. Ramuh is getting Stunga . . . Not to be a Debbie downer but , meh . . .

Hopefully the other adjustments will be better!

[Sargent]

I just read the Japanese forum and they confirmed the new blood pacts for Carbuncle and Ramuh. Carbuncle is getting a move that removed multiple status ailments from party members. I'm not sure if it heals HP too. I'm too lazy to go back and check lol. Ramuh is getting Stunga . . . Not to be a Debbie downer but , meh . . .

Hopefully the other adjustments will be better!

Saw Stunga coming a mile off. There's anew Stun in the dats and SE confirmed Stun II will not be added. The new Carby BP seems nice tho.

[Soranika]

Stunga is interesting.... wonder how easily resisted it'll bet compared to BLM Stun.

[Tannlore]

Carby AoE ailment cure? I'll get happy about that when I find out how potent it is. Though It is nice to have it I guess... better be something better than Levi's BP.

Stunga? Now that sounds interesting and... useless.. Stunga with a long cast timer is ultimately all it is. Still cool I guess, but I was hoping for a damage blood pact to replace the 70/75s.

[Soundwave]

I just read the Japanese forum and they confirmed the new blood pacts for Carbuncle and Ramuh. Carbuncle is getting a move that removed multiple status ailments from party members. I'm not sure if it heals HP too. I'm too lazy to go back and check lol. Ramuh is getting Stunga . . . Not to be a Debbie downer but , meh . . .

Hopefully the other adjustments will be better!

An upgraded Spring Water for Carby hmmm I dunno
And stunga uses lol?

Link? Please I would like to read the JP version?

Edit*** never mind found it.

[Malamasala]

Stunga seems utterly useless. But it is still nice with one on the ward timer since it will let you stun things the very few times it will work.

[Papesse]

Most BP debuffs have a decent MAcc, I don't expect to see much resists on Stunga.

I really thought Ramuh BP would have been an AoE MDB down since Magic Def Bonus is Water based, Evasion is Wind (Diamond Storm) and Attack is Fire (Tidal Roar)... Elemental Gyves in the Maiden of The dusk BC had the same kind of debuffs.
Carbuncle BP could be handy on Bad Breath-type moves.

[Arciel]

Shock Squalls aka Stunga does sound like crap.. but then again so did all the other 75+ celestial wards, and we all know how those turned out in the end.. pretty darn good..

so I wouldn't exactly get my hopes up but I'm expecting the duration of the stun to be pretty potent.

[Soranika]

If duration of stun is based on Summoning magic, I wouldn't be eager to over look it as I have been.... but lol that won't happen.

[Vortex]

One thing i would love to see for SMN is for avatar's stats/hp/defense etc all to be based on thier corresponding day, example, on firesday Ifrit is stronger, attacks faster hits harder more accurate, , more hp etc. and on waters day he's weaker in those. maybe even give them an exclusive ability/spell on there strong day, this would force smns to stratagize around not abusing one pet all the time (looking at you garuda!) or this could possibly make smns fear iceday.

[Vangoh]

Man I thought they were adding a new job ability and avatars on this update, guess we'll have to wait for next lvl cap. The BPs are kinda sucky IMO. Leviathan's Spring Water kind of does what the new Carby BP gonna do and Leviathan heals HP as well. Ramuh's Stunga is all right I guess but it's not something to get excited about if it only stuns, unless it stuns mob for long periods of time then yes, it would have been a lot better if it dealt damage along with the stun...oh well it is what it is.

[Malamasala]

Job ability would have been nice. Avatars aren't needed (since I'm still stuck in wotg).

[Zemarin]

A) Greatly Reduce BP ward's Timer.... BP ward time should be 1/2 or even less than BP Rage.
B) Move Diabolos' Somnolence To BP Rage?
C) Reduce Avatars Casting Time from 7s to 3/4s.
D) Give Avatar Slight Move speed boost when out of Combat
E) Allow Summons to make Tier 3 SC with their BP
F) Add a Skilll that Allows Us to use Avatar's MP.... maybe not for BP but like cause them to heal/buff themselves
G) Reduce Elemental Spirit's Recast Time
H) Lower Avatar Attack Delay, Change Damage Type for Each Normal Hit, and Give them some Job Traits PLEASE

[Malamasala]

B) Move Diabolos' Somnolence To BP Rage?

I don't see the point. I'd rather have more of the low level pacts in a separate timer so I can debuff monsters with them. BP: Support or something.

[Vangoh]

A) Greatly Reduce BP ward's Timer.... BP ward time should be 1/2 or even less than BP Rage.
B) Move Diabolos' Somnolence To BP Rage?
C) Reduce Avatars Casting Time from 7s to 3/4s.
D) Give Avatar Slight Move speed boost when out of Combat
E) Allow Summons to make Tier 3 SC with their BP
F) Add a Skilll that Allows Us to use Avatar's MP.... maybe not for BP but like cause them to heal/buff themselves
G) Reduce Elemental Spirit's Recast Time
H) Lower Avatar Attack Delay, Change Damage Type for Each Normal Hit, and Give them some Job Traits PLEASE

A) Yes
B) No, why take away the advantage to have a DD ward pact?
C) I wouldn't mind but is not that important to me.
D) Same as C
E) Hellz yez
F) I didn't quite understood this one, you mean sacrifice mp to buff our avatars? I'm not sure about that
G) Same as C
H) Yeah the avatar delay is pretty slow to be fair, they have a high delay just to deal a little more damage than I do wtf? Ok maybe I'm exaggerating but is not much difference from what I do with my staff, DRG's wyverns hit pretty hard and let's not get into BST's pet's damage. At least give them job traits (like Zemarin said) or en-ele with their respective element.

Well thought none the less.

[Tannlore]

A) Greatly Reduce BP ward's Timer.... BP ward time should be 1/2 or even less than BP Rage.
B) Move Diabolos' Somnolence To BP Rage?
C) Reduce Avatars Casting Time from 7s to 3/4s.
D) Give Avatar Slight Move speed boost when out of Combat
E) Allow Summons to make Tier 3 SC with their BP
F) Add a Skilll that Allows Us to use Avatar's MP.... maybe not for BP but like cause them to heal/buff themselves
G) Reduce Elemental Spirit's Recast Time
H) Lower Avatar Attack Delay, Change Damage Type for Each Normal Hit, and Give them some Job Traits PLEASE

A) I Agree, but probably won't happen
B) Umm.. what? No, why? This is an advantage... why would you want to do that?
C) Get Carby Gloves >:) But a reduction in cast time would be nice... but not necessarily up there in "needs"
D) Speed boost over all period, not just out of combat.
E) Been asking for this for years.
F) Yes, this would be nice and I've asked for this in the past. BTW: There is an item that allows us to do this btw "Dawn Mulsum"
G) The cast time is fine as it is: Gear for it and cast the correct spirit for the day/weather and you will see.
H) Yes, yes, and yes... and link it to the gear that smn have equipped. Seriously this is the only MMO I've played where the magic pet class's gear doesn't fully effect the pets, only partially. I've played some games where the "summoner's" weapon's atk power increases his pet's atk power and speed (or magic power if it's a magic based pet) and armor values boosted the pet's armor.

[Covenant]

@vortex I'm not sure if this is what you meant...but, I think all avatars DO get a increase to skills/stats during weather/day of corresponding element.