Job Vision: Watch paint dry

[Malamasala]

Vision
Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies

We intend to make it easier for avatars to wreak havoc upon enemies, but also emphasize how vital the act of managing the source of their magical powers is to summoners.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who equals sitting by my PC and watching a pet fight and waiting on those RARE Pact timers to come around to watching paint dry. I want an active JOB, and have been actively trying to convince SE of this vision since 2004.

The general idea to let the pet do the fighting isn't bad, but it needs more controls for the pet owner. When all you got is one measly rage timer, sitting back and watching is not FUN. Do SE want customers to be BORED? If yes, then please continue with your Summoner visions. If no, then observe how many timers/spells other jobs have and how active they are to play.

My simple suggestion is:

Add more Blood Pact timers. It doesn't get easier than that. If you can use more job abilities, you'll become more active, and enjoy the game more.

Alternative suggestion:

Change our envisioned role from paint dryer watchers, to either a melee or mage. That means give us EX staff skills, melee traits and melee armors (even better, pet/character hybrid melee armors). Or give us cure V, Thunder V, or whatever direction you want the mage part to go. The important part is to make us active.



The playerbase have said this for a decade and the information is somehow not getting through. We want to be more ACTIVE. We didn't pick Summoner to stand at the back, watch our pet fight (And read row after row of part chat saying "Get the damn pet off, it is feeding TP!") and then once a minute do an active pact choice (same over and over because each avatar only has ONE good rage pact at any given level).

If I don't see improvements until level 99, I'm quitting and picking up painting. While watching paint dry will be just as boring as playing Summoner, I'll at least get to paint as well.

[StingRay104]

Do away with blood pact rage and ward altogether, each avatar should have their own list of spells/abilities and each one should have its own timer.

[Soundwave]

The general idea to let the pet do the fighting isn't bad, but it needs more controls for the pet owner.

I understand people get tired and irritated waiting for so long for a fix to the job, using the word but after giving out a type of complement is just bad for starters.

I do think sitting back and watching the pet fight is rather boring waiting for two types of timers, so yes SE please look into this...give us more options instead of many options inside a few options. What I mean by that is we are still running off two timers that lead to over 40+ BP's

[Coldbrand]

melee summoner thread

Also, really, ask yourself "Am I Donatello?" if the answer comes up no, attacking with a staff will never be cool.

[Covenant]

I'm not 100% opposed to splitting physical/magical Bloodpacts, as well as enhancing/enfeeble bloodwards. Maybe, increasing the timers between the (4) to add "balance". Though, I still think ALL avatars should still share timers.

Id say 1.3 recast timer. With the summon skill adjustment and with the new bloodpact delay(if no tied to skill cap) then would probably drop 4 active uses to 1min timers or so.

[Duelle]

Alternative suggestion:

Change our envisioned role from paint dryer watchers, to either a melee or mage. That means give us EX staff skills, melee traits and melee armors (even better, pet/character hybrid melee armors). Or give us cure V, Thunder V, or whatever direction you want the mage part to go. The important part is to make us active.I've always been in favor of giving SMN native support and access to a secondary school of magic, so I'll agree with this.

As far as additional timers, I'd be on board for that too, unless there's potency issues or something else that the devs are worried about when it comes to pet classes.

[AyinDygra]

Maybe Summoners should gain access to the family of spells associated with the active avatar; in effect, creating spell-casting modes more limited than Scholar, but still giving them "something" to do. This is in keeping with both Rydia's use of Black and White magic, and Yuna's white magic. They may even be able to use the MP of their Avatar to cast the spells, instead of their own.

Examples:
Shiva: Ice magic I-IV, Frost and Sleep
Ramuh: Thunder magic I-IV, Shock, Stun and paralyze.
Titan: Earth magic I-IV, Rasp, Gravity, Stun, Slow
Ifrit: Fire magic I-IV, Burn, Plague? +?
Garuda: Wind magic I-IV, Choke, Silence
Leviathan: Water magic I-IV, Drown, Slow
Carbuncle: Cures I-IV and protection magic.
Diabolos: Sleep, Gravity, Phalanx +?
Fenrir: Blind, Paralyze, Dispel +?
Atomos: Stardust I-IV, Slow
Cait Sith: (unknown)

Now Summoners will never be without something to do, and it's entirely linked to their main job, not selection of support job.

[Soundwave]

Maybe Summoners should gain access to the family of spells associated with the active avatar; in effect, creating spell-casting modes more limited than Scholar, but still giving them "something" to do. This is in keeping with both Rydia's use of Black and White magic, and Yuna's white magic. They may even be able to use the MP of their Avatar to cast the spells, instead of their own.

Examples:
Shiva: Ice magic I-IV, Frost and Sleep
Ramuh: Thunder magic I-IV, Shock, Stun and paralyze.
Titan: Earth magic I-IV, Rasp, Gravity, Stun, Slow
Ifrit: Fire magic I-IV, Burn, Plague? +?
Garuda: Wind magic I-IV, Choke, Silence
Leviathan: Water magic I-IV, Drown, Slow
Carbuncle: Cures I-IV and protection magic.
Diabolos: Sleep, Gravity, Phalanx +?
Fenrir: Blind, Paralyze, Dispel +?
Atomos: Stardust I-IV, Slow
Cait Sith: (unknown)

Now Summoners will never be without something to do, and it's entirely linked to their main job, not selection of support job.

The issue with that of course is balance, all you have to do is have a rdm to cover all those grounds and the rdm will do the job better and more effective than summoner. Summoner needs thier own type of spot light that separates them from other jobs.

Summoner is such a versatile job that it can do all those things but not potent enough...and because of this....the job is weak...when I mean weak I don't mean gimp I mean with the two timers we are running on to get the job done etc.

[Karbuncle]

For the above to would they would also need to give us significant skill levels, otherwise it would not be worth using.

But i don't see that being too far fetched.

[Duelle]

For the above to would they would also need to give us significant skill levels, otherwise it would not be worth using.

But i don't see that being too far fetched.The other option would be a trait that causes spells to scale with Summoning Magic Skill. If you make it scale 1:1 then you would have to limit the spell list to allow them to use said spells as supplemental damage while the meat of their damage comes from the avatars, but it's one way of doing things.

[Xellith]

I wouldnt mind some new stance for SMN that when activated the smn becomes rooted to the spot and....

"ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" Would be neat kicking a mobs face in controling my avatars position and abilities in battle at the cost of losing control of my character. Your character getting attacked could cause you to lose focus and therefore your avatar becomes AI.

Then again PS2 limitations and all...

[Malamasala]

I've never liked the idea of direct control, but I wouldn't mind some lended functions from FFX. Like giving you a set of actions to perform. Defend, to take less damage, Heal, to regenerate health, Swap, to turn into another pet without being released between and keeping the hate level, etc.

And if you want to explore the Elemental Siphon path, you could always expand this to Elemental Affinity job ability or something that unlocks all spells for a given element on use. The issue here (apart from possibly stepping on toes) would be that you can't have an avatar out AND summon a spirit to do this. So for avatar focus, you need this ability to give you like 5+ min of spell access after releasing the spirit. But you could also combine it so that keeping the spirit out used the spirit MP instead of your own when casting spells. That way we'd almost see a use out of spirits after a decade.

There is a lot of solutions. You just need to pick one that doesn't read "Lowers BP:Rage damage by 25%, increases MP cost by 25%, gives STD20, disables Reraise" on the abilities. I'm quite sick of all the extra penalties attached to everything. I mainly only use Siphon, because it is the ONLY ability without penalties attached.

[Daniel]

summoners have plenty to do, maybe your just not very good at it. On top of that SMN is stronger than just about any other DD in the game, 1400-1800 Wind blades on bosses outside of Abyssia, additionally after I do each one it can tank the mob for a bit til it dies relieving stress from tank.

[Alhanelem]

It said right below the part OP quoted that they were adding an ability to allow you to pay extra MP for the privilege of having a faster BP timer. Did you just not read this part or what?

[Malamasala]

It said right below the part OP quoted that they were adding an ability to allow you to pay extra MP for the privilege of having a faster BP timer. Did you just not read this part or what?

Uhm... It said "example" not "We promise to do this". It also said "ability" which could translate into "every 20 minutes" if they go Random Deal on us. Imagine that "fantastic" update. Every 20 minutes you can shave off 5 seconds on BP timer... but wait, it costs 250 MP, because else it would be overpowered.

I'd also like to remind you that they said 2006 that we are going to get new avatars that we can keep out LONGER than our current ones. We got 2 new 2 hours that stay out about 5 seconds during a ready animation... I just don't listen to them any longer.

The sad part is that they've never listened to me either. Of course, why listen to someone who wants to help when you can sit and ruin your game on your own.

[Malamasala]

summoners have plenty to do, maybe your just not very good at it. On top of that SMN is stronger than just about any other DD in the game, 1400-1800 Wind blades on bosses outside of Abyssia, additionally after I do each one it can tank the mob for a bit til it dies relieving stress from tank.

You are delusional. If dealing 1500 damage steals hate off tank and makes your pet tank a while, what happens if a melee WS or a BLM nukes? Mob goes for them... at which point you should ask yourself why you have a tank that isn't tanking. The only thing your example shows, is that Summoner excels in bad groups who don't know how to play.

And I'd like to hear your "plenty" of things to do. I kind of can guarantee that you can't list any that doesn't run into subjob territory, at which point we aren't talking SMN, we are talking subjobs. I separate those two categories, which is why I can safely say Summoner, as a job, are very inactive. (Summoner, as I play it, is more melee oriented so I'm actually more active than what I argue about. I just know we aren't all melee Summoners in here)

[Razushu]

Uhm... It said "example" not "We promise to do this". It also said "ability" which could translate into "every 20 minutes" if they go Random Deal on us. Imagine that "fantastic" update. Every 20 minutes you can shave off 5 seconds on BP timer... but wait, it costs 250 MP, because else it would be overpowered.

I'd also like to remind you that they said 2006 that we are going to get new avatars that we can keep out LONGER than our current ones. We got 2 new 2 hours that stay out about 5 seconds during a ready animation... I just don't listen to them any longer.

The sad part is that they've never listened to me either. Of course, why listen to someone who wants to help when you can sit and ruin your game on your own.


Vision

We intend to make it easier for avatars to wreak havoc upon enemies, but also emphasize how vital the act of managing the source of their magical powers is to summoners.

This to me pretty much translates as were getting something like


A new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.

They say example as in part of what they're gonna implement.

[Razushu]

And I'd like to hear your "plenty" of things to do. I kind of can guarantee that you can't list any that doesn't run into subjob territory, at which point we aren't talking SMN, we are talking subjobs. I separate those two categories, which is why I can safely say Summoner, as a job, are very inactive. (Summoner, as I play it, is more melee oriented so I'm actually more active than what I argue about. I just know we aren't all melee Summoners in here)

Why shouldn't plenty to do go into subjob territory, they're part of the job or we wouldn't be able to equip them. Are you saying that a DRG can't use hasso and call DRG a good DD as Hasso is a /SAM ability. The subjob system enabled SE to be a little lazy in some cases when designing jobs and SMN is the best example of that, In other FFs SMNs had avatars,aeons eidolons etc. to do big damage and they also had access natively to healing magic. SE left this out because we could access these magics from subjob, which has lead to the identity crisis we see today where people will say "I'm not healing anyone, it's not native to the job" but will happily insist on meleeing and use /job traits like Hasso and sneak attack to improve it.

[Dallas]

Make the job less boring. Melee as /WHM for the red procs you can't get otherwise, keep healing, and make simple minds EXPLODE!

[Babekeke]

It said right below the part OP quoted that they were adding an ability to allow you to pay extra MP for the privilege of having a faster BP timer. Did you just not read this part or what?

Exactly, people only read what they want to read.


Uhm... It said "example" not "We promise to do this". It also said "ability" which could translate into "every 20 minutes" if they go Random Deal on us. Imagine that "fantastic" update. Every 20 minutes you can shave off 5 seconds on BP timer... but wait, it costs 250 MP, because else it would be overpowered.

A very pessamistic view, but I DO see where you're coming from, since SMN have been screwed over for years.
However
This (to me) says we're getting a stance, which will either cost us x mp/tick while the stance is active, or reduce BP timers by X% but increase BP cost by X%. My only fear is that they might add some nerf to melee power while this stance is active. If not then swing away and use WS to control that MP just like they want us to XD (because resting between BPs kind of negates the benefit of being able to use BPs faster!). Unless the mobs are aspirable, then /sch might be a viable option with a good haste and dark magic build.

[Babekeke]

Make the job less boring. Melee as /WHM for the red procs you can't get otherwise, keep healing, and make simple minds EXPLODE!

Or, make the job less boring and melee as /war for those procs you can't get otherwise, and at the same time utilise 10% double attack, berserk, aggressor, warcry, attack bonus.

[Leonlionheart]

Maybe Summoners should gain access to the family of spells associated with the active avatar; in effect, creating spell-casting modes more limited than Scholar, but still giving them "something" to do. This is in keeping with both Rydia's use of Black and White magic, and Yuna's white magic. They may even be able to use the MP of their Avatar to cast the spells, instead of their own.

Examples:
Shiva: Ice magic I-IV, Frost and Sleep
Ramuh: Thunder magic I-IV, Shock, Stun and paralyze.
Titan: Earth magic I-IV, Rasp, Gravity, Stun, Slow
Ifrit: Fire magic I-IV, Burn, Plague? +?
Garuda: Wind magic I-IV, Choke, Silence
Leviathan: Water magic I-IV, Drown, Slow
Carbuncle: Cures I-IV and protection magic.
Diabolos: Sleep, Gravity, Phalanx +?
Fenrir: Blind, Paralyze, Dispel +?
Atomos: Stardust I-IV, Slow
Cait Sith: (unknown)

Now Summoners will never be without something to do, and it's entirely linked to their main job, not selection of support job.

I like this idea, and the feedback of it seems to be forgetting that these are additions to your spell list, not the only thing you have. You'd still have your blood pacts and avatars dealing damage.

Seriously, gettin T4 nukes with comparable skill (scaled with summoning magic) (and SMN gets some pieces of mab gear too (eradico mitts, Zenith hands, novio, hecates, etc) would make me actually play the job.

[Leonlionheart]

Or, make the job less boring and melee as /war for those procs you can't get otherwise, and at the same time utilise 10% double attack, berserk, aggressor, warcry, attack bonus.

You forgot to mention defense bonus and resist virus with the list of buffs that would make SMN more useless.

Now if you could get 15% haste with a spell that would be something. Oh wait.

[Alhanelem]

Uhm... It said "example" not "We promise to do this".Do you really think they're just making stuff up with no intention of actually doing it? Did you know that many of these abilities/spells already have animations in the DAT files as of the most recent update?


I'd also like to remind you that they said 2006 that we are going to get new avatars that we can keep out LONGER than our current ones.This is a result of funny story telling and the telephone game. They NEVER said this. They said we were getting 2 new avatars, and that they wanted us to be able to keep our summons out more. Two seperate things, and both of them were achieved. They said NOTHING about the new avatars specifically being the ones we'd summon longer.

They used the word "example" to say that the exact changes are not set in stone, e.g. they could change. I won't blame you for being skeptical, as SMN tends to get the short end of the stick, but these changes are backed up by new data in the data files.

Finally, to reinforce this further, they would not name SPECIFIC avatars if they were not going to implement them.

[Tagrineth]

If you feel that playing Summoner is like watching paint dry

STOP PLAYING SUMMONER

because clearly it is not the job for you.

[Korpg]

I wouldn't mind it if the avatars would have the same abilities and traits as the Summoner.

Like, if you sub WAR, the avatar would get double attack and such. Stuff like that would make any melee SMN happy.

Plus, it would make subbing BLM viable, because of MAB attached to it.

Having Divine Seal and using Healing Ruby II would be outstanding.

Hasso would make Ramuh that much more potent (assuming that they allow that, that is).

Also, while we are at it, lets include gear stats to the avatar too. Having avatars with 22% haste would help with their DoT a lot. Why, even Dallas would approve of that.

[Leonlionheart]

I wouldn't mind it if the avatars would have the same abilities and traits as the Summoner.

Like, if you sub WAR, the avatar would get double attack and such. Stuff like that would make any melee SMN happy.

Plus, it would make subbing BLM viable, because of MAB attached to it.

Having Divine Seal and using Healing Ruby II would be outstanding.

Hasso would make Ramuh that much more potent (assuming that they allow that, that is).

Also, why we are at it, lets include gear stats to the avatar too. Having avatars with 22% haste would help with their DoT a lot. Why, even Dallas would approve of that.

That's all kind of a game changer for SMN, completely changing what gear you would use. Not that they couldn't fix that in future updates, but 1~90 would be lol.

[Duelle]

That's all kind of a game changer for SMN, completely changing what gear you would use. Not that they couldn't fix that in future updates, but 1~90 would be lol.Considering the alternative (Pet: +Stat gear) comes into play relatively late in the leveling process, it might not be as bad, I'd think.

[Leonlionheart]

Considering the alternative (Pet: +Stat gear) comes into play relatively late in the leveling process, it might not be as bad, I'd think.

Maybe a JT then, even still it would change a lot. I can't say if it would be a bad thing, just that it would take a lot of SMN gear in the complete opposite direction.

[Korpg]

Maybe a JT then, even still it would change a lot. I can't say if it would be a bad thing, just that it would take a lot of SMN gear in the complete opposite direction.

It depends on the player to be honest.

For soloist, it wouldn't change a thing. For lolmelee SMN, it might actually be great for them.

For SMN only players, would help them out tremendously.

[Dallas]

Now if you could get 15% haste with a spell that would be something.

Seriously, what kind of loser job like SMN tries to melee without a simple spell like HASTE?

LOLLH, when you crash, you crash big.

[Alhanelem]

Seriously, what kind of loser job like SMN tries to melee without a simple spell like HASTE?

LOLLH, when you crash, you crash big.
WooooooOOOOshhhhhhhh

[Korpg]

Seriously, what kind of loser job like SMN tries to melee without a simple spell like HASTE?

LOLLH, when you crash, you crash big.
WooooooOOOOshhhhhhhh

Heck, even I saw the woosh and I'm the most oblivious poster here.

Well, guess not anymore.

[Dallas]

I refuse to beleive that LLH made the post on purpose. None of his other posts exhibit any level of knowledge of SMN.

[Malamasala]

They used the word "example" to say that the exact changes are not set in stone, e.g. they could change. I won't blame you for being skeptical, as SMN tends to get the short end of the stick, but these changes are backed up by new data in the data files.

That is incorrect. SE always sets things in stone, so that they can't accidentally listen to player feedback and make something good. If you are right, and examples are not thin air examples, then we will be getting things like the following:

Atomos 2 hour move, Absorb 10% stats and HP and give to party.

Job Ability Astral Connection, lowers BP timer by 5 seconds, costs 100 MP, recast 10 minutes.

That is the kind of stupid ideas SE keeps throwing our way. And regardless of what we say, they won't listen. I'll never know if it is the community people ignoring me, or the developers, but it is certain that SE are aiming to displease as many as possible that play Summoner.

I'm getting fed up with having better ideas than SE for every update and just face palm on all of them. Skill over cap? Insane idea. 25% damage reduction on Favors? Insane idea. Half potency reset on using rage pacts? Insane idea.

If any other job than Summoner had to put up with this kind of crap, SE would have had issues, but all Summoners are masochists. Take for example if WAR only had Provoke, nothing else. And to do something else than melee and WS, they had to sub DRG or SAM? They wouldn't accept it... but SMNs are all "Well, sub WHM! Sub SAM! Subjobs are there to give you more to do!"

You can easily take something from any job and "Summonize" it by making it crappy.

Meditate - Gives you 25% slow for 1 minute, to offset the power of getting TP so fast.
Divine Seal - Doubles the MP cost of a spell, because it doubles the potency!
Marches - Don't stack with haste, because it would be overpowered with two sources of haste stacking!
Wizards roll - Effected by day in week. Only MAB bonus to current day element.

Remove all restrictions on SMN, and the job won't be like being jailed for asking for democracy in a communist country. Start with global timers, perpetuation and ward restrictions, and the job will be brand new, while still half restricted.

[Razushu]

That is incorrect. SE always sets things in stone, so that they can't accidentally listen to player feedback and make something good. If you are right, and examples are not thin air examples, then we will be getting things like the following:

Atomos 2 hour move, Absorb 10% stats and HP and give to party.

Job Ability Astral Connection, lowers BP timer by 5 seconds, costs 100 MP, recast 10 minutes.

That is the kind of stupid ideas SE keeps throwing our way. And regardless of what we say, they won't listen. I'll never know if it is the community people ignoring me, or the developers, but it is certain that SE are aiming to displease as many as possible that play Summoner.

I'm getting fed up with having better ideas than SE for every update and just face palm on all of them. Skill over cap? Insane idea. 25% damage reduction on Favors? Insane idea. Half potency reset on using rage pacts? Insane idea.

If any other job than Summoner had to put up with this kind of crap, SE would have had issues, but all Summoners are masochists. Take for example if WAR only had Provoke, nothing else. And to do something else than melee and WS, they had to sub DRG or SAM? They wouldn't accept it... but SMNs are all "Well, sub WHM! Sub SAM! Subjobs are there to give you more to do!"

You can easily take something from any job and "Summonize" it by making it crappy.

Meditate - Gives you 25% slow for 1 minute, to offset the power of getting TP so fast.
Divine Seal - Doubles the MP cost of a spell, because it doubles the potency!
Marches - Don't stack with haste, because it would be overpowered with two sources of haste stacking!
Wizards roll - Effected by day in week. Only MAB bonus to current day element.

Remove all restrictions on SMN, and the job won't be like being jailed for asking for democracy in a communist country. Start with global timers, perpetuation and ward restrictions, and the job will be brand new, while still half restricted.

I'm all for being pessimistic, and I can be quite good at it but I think SE is finished screwing around with SMN. Since going past 75cap SE has done ok by SMN(reasonable per cost incrrease and some great gear and the change to how our buffs are calculated), now it looks like they're gonna do something about BP delay. Hopefully this will be a stance that adds something like 25% or so to BP cost for a 15 second cap breaking reduction, seems like a fair price to me and it's not gonna break the game. I'm going to wait and see how the update is handled for us before I start worrying that SE has lost it again.

I have to agree with you on Avatar's Favor it was the most underwhelming job adjustment in the history of this game, it's the best example of too much cost for too little reward. But that was 2 years ago and SE seems to have changed since 80 cap I haven't felt like SE's red headed stepchild.

[Leonlionheart]

I refuse to beleive that LLH made the post on purpose. None of his other posts exhibit any level of knowledge of SMN.

Now everything has just been bent out of context.

Melee smn sux is the worst tho

[Korpg]

I refuse to beleive that LLH made the post on purpose. None of his other posts exhibit any level of knowledge of SMN.

Neither does your posts. What is your point?

[Alhanelem]

That is the kind of stupid ideas SE keeps throwing our way.No. They have had plenty of good ideas lately, and they've been making a lot of wanted changes. Stop being such a Negative Nancy. Also stop contradicting yourself by changing your story.

[Korpg]

I'm getting fed up with having better ideas than SE for every update and just face palm on all of them. Skill over cap? Insane idea. 25% damage reduction on Favors? Insane idea. Half potency reset on using rage pacts? Insane idea.


You know, I can't help but think of Dallas when I read this. Where is the proof that you wrote that SE is going to have Avatar's Favor prior to Favor being mentioned? I'm sorry, but I can't accept your words without proof.


You can easily take something from any job and "Summonize" it by making it crappy.

Meditate - Gives you 25% slow for 1 minute, to offset the power of getting TP so fast.
Divine Seal - Doubles the MP cost of a spell, because it doubles the potency!
Marches - Don't stack with haste, because it would be overpowered with two sources of haste stacking!
Wizards roll - Effected by day in week. Only MAB bonus to current day element.

Remove all restrictions on SMN, and the job won't be like being jailed for asking for democracy in a communist country. Start with global timers, perpetuation and ward restrictions, and the job will be brand new, while still half restricted.

Bolded: Perp restrictions? You are asking for Perp on gear or perp in total from avatars? If you are asking for perp in gear restrictions, you are asking to gimp the heck out of SMN.....what do you want us to be like, Dallas? Having to melee for MP?

Anyway, you are asking SE to gimp every job to satisfy yours. Doesn't that sound like a spoiled child not getting his way?

"Daddy, I want you to close this store because they don't have the latest toy on the shelves!" "But son, that is a hardware store." "I don't care, it doesn't have that toy, I want it closed NOW!!!!! /fit"

Seriously.....

[Korpg]

I have to agree with you on Avatar's Favor it was the most underwhelming job adjustment in the history of this game, it's the best example of too much cost for too little reward. But that was 2 years ago and SE seems to have changed since 80 cap I haven't felt like SE's red headed stepchild.

You know, at the time Favor was introduced, it was hailed as a great job ability for Summoner. It was worth the lower 2 perp cost to give up minimal stats that you can now Carby Kite NMs to death, like anything 95+ at 75. Which I did, a lot, on the new NMs that later came to play. Specially ones that would kill any zerg stratagy alliance with just spike spells alone.

[Razushu]

You know, at the time Favor was introduced, it was hailed as a great job ability for Summoner. It was worth the lower 2 perp cost to give up minimal stats that you can now Carby Kite NMs to death, like anything 95+ at 75. Which I did, a lot, on the new NMs that later came to play. Specially ones that would kill any zerg stratagy alliance with just spike spells alone.

I could Carby kite already, before Favor I was getting +1mp per tick on him/her back then. I was super impressed by the ability when it was announced but in reality it fell flat on it's face, aside from very niche uses.

[Korpg]

I could Carby kite already, before Favor I was getting +1mp per tick on him/her back then. I was super impressed by the ability when it was announced but in reality it fell flat on it's face, aside from very niche uses.

Well, having 4 free avatars with favor up gave you some options.

Like having Fenrir and his higher def and HP to survive longer, and some fights, the avatars didn't last as long as the timers allowed either.

Or Garuda and her strength against wind damage.

[Razushu]

Well, having 4 free avatars with favor up gave you some options.

Like having Fenrir and his higher def and HP to survive longer, and some fights, the avatars didn't last as long as the timers allowed either.

Or Garuda and her strength against wind damage.

Only things I found favor useful for was mainhealing, I'd have Carby out meleeing on the mob giving Regen to the melees and refresh, either for other party members or the odd time when I'd die and resting wasn't an option I'd summon Diabolos and hit Astral Flow and Favor while moving to get my MP back up to decent levels.

I didn't use favor for soloing or anything, if I needed a different avatar to Carby I'd use Yag drinks etc. to manage perp or make sure I'm able to Siphon mid fight.

[Babekeke]

You forgot to mention defense bonus and resist virus with the list of buffs that would make SMN more useless.

Now if you could get 15% haste with a spell that would be something. Oh wait.

It's called Hastega and you get it with EVERY SJ ^^

[Korpg]

It's called Hastega and you get it with EVERY SJ ^^

Unintended victim of a woosh.

Don't worry, your death will not be in vain!

[Babekeke]

It said right below the part OP quoted that they were adding an ability to allow you to pay extra MP for the privilege of having a faster BP timer. Did you just not read this part or what?


Unintended victim of a woosh.

Don't worry, your death will not be in vain!

He was implying that we should sub whm for that 15% haste, and not war for all the other melee benefits. But thanks for your input

[Alhanelem]

SMN doesn't need to sub WHM for haste. It has haste built in.

[Rosina]

summoner always had a bad time in ffxi. First you always had to have /whm and be a healer. then they broke up the spells for ward and rage this helped a tad. But ya. They should make the job more active.

As for attacking witha staff. A smn should do it. The tp move that dmg=mp is very good for a smn. (spirit taker)

Anyway that my 2 cents :)

[Korpg]

He was implying that we should sub whm for that 15% haste, and not war for all the other melee benefits. But thanks for your input

Leon was refering to Dallas's, for the better term, crusade for SMN melee.

[Alhanelem]

The tp move that dmg=mp is very good for a smn.Myrkr is a lot better than Spirit Taker, just fyi.

[Karbuncle]

summoners have plenty to do, maybe your just not very good at it..

Really? Maybe you're just not playing with very good WHMs. Outside of Bloodpacting, name 1 other thing a SMN can do that other mages shouldn't already be handling.

I don't deny SMN is a great DD for Voidwatch Content, stuff like that where your pets being disposable is nice, and for uses such as Earthern Armor.

But they can't really do anything between BP timers that shouldnt already be taken care of by your mages. I mean sure if a lot of people are hit by an AoE they can help cure, But that really shouldn't happen much if your group is decent.

(please Note im talking about Voidwatch Content, Not abyssea)

[Leonlionheart]

My good intentions go unnoticed...

Forgot about Hastega, but either way /war is a horrible subjob for everyone but MNK, NIN and SAM, maybe THF and DNC in rare occaisons. Everyone else should either be subbing SAM for 2handed melee, NIN for DW, BLU for PvP, WHM for haste and Cure IV, or RDM for MP. Situational sh~~ is situational as always though...

For actual use, Hastega is just kind of nice. Haste goes out of party, and if your SMN is in a party where they can all be hasted at the same time, then something is wrong.

That's all I meant. sadface

[Alhanelem]

and if your SMN is in a party where they can all be hasted at the same time, then something is wrong.Uh no, something is right, because that means you have a party full of cooperative, intelligent players who make it easy for other people to buff them.

[Razushu]

Uh no, something is right, because that means you have a party full of cooperative, intelligent players who make it easy for other people to buff them.

Al this will go nowhere again, the SMN is only good in fail groups argument will just be resurrected.

[Karbuncle]

Al this will go nowhere again, the SMN is only good in fail groups argument will just be resurrected.

Not entirely true.

SMN is actually quite useful in Voidwatch content. If you've done higher than T2 You'll realize this quickly :P

[Razushu]

Really? Maybe you're just not playing with very good WHMs. Outside of Bloodpacting, name 1 other thing a SMN can do that other mages shouldn't already be handling.

I don't deny SMN is a great DD for Voidwatch Content, stuff like that where your pets being disposable is nice, and for uses such as Earthern Armor.

But they can't really do anything between BP timers that shouldnt already be taken care of by your mages. I mean sure if a lot of people are hit by an AoE they can help cure, But that really shouldn't happen much if your group is decent.

(please Note im talking about Voidwatch Content, Not abyssea)

It doesn't matter how good the WHM is the party will always benefit from more support. Funny thing about those other mages that should be handling things is, SMN falls quite nicely into the same category with them.

[Razushu]

Not entirely true.

SMN is actually quite useful in Voidwatch content. If you've done higher than T2 You'll realize this quickly :P

I was referring to the 10+ pages of a thread me, all and LLH among others cyclically argued about SMN in parties with no progress or concession made lol, it was a special time.

I find my SMN useful in all kinds of situations, but I do hear SMN is amazing in voidwatch. When they add gear I want to void watch I'll have to try it lol

[Karbuncle]

It doesn't matter how good the WHM is the party will always benefit from more support. Funny thing about those other mages that should be handling things is, SMN falls quite nicely into the same category with them.

This is where our opinions differ then. If your support team can do the job without you just fine, like they should, using "More support :D!" as an excuse isn't good enough my friend.

You could technically throw out a Hastega, But what good group puts a SMN in the Melee party? rhetorical question none do nor should. SMN is best served in a BLM or Tank party. BLM party for Diabolos Whoring, Perhaps the Occasional Shiva-Favor or Diabolos' MAB Ward, and Tank party for Earthern Armor for higher teir VNMs (Its very helpful).

But again i say, Those fall under Bloodpacts. Outside of that If you're /WHM, You get Na's, and a few cures, and haste. thats all the uses from sub job WHM, on /SCH you get the same minus Haste.

So i'm not quite sure what you're trying to say at this point so I'll wait for another response and go from there. I still believe you can't do anything on SMN inbetween BP's that a Mage in your party should already be handling.

Sure, you could help, but realistically they don't need it. Obviously as I said if something huge happens like multiple people getting hit by an AoE due to bad luck, You help cure/na, But that shouldn't happen very often.

There are exceptions to the above, But they happen rarely or only as you said (and as we dont want to bring up) happen in groups where your mages are sub-par and cannot handle their tasks adequately.

[Razushu]

This is where our opinions differ then. If your support team can do the job without you just fine, like they should, using "More support :D!" as an excuse isn't good enough my friend.

You could technically throw out a Hastega, But what good group puts a SMN in the Melee party? rhetorical question none do nor should. SMN is best served in a BLM or Tank party. BLM party for Diabolos Whoring, Perhaps the Occasional Shiva-Favor or Diabolos' MAB Ward, and Tank party for Earthern Armor for higher teir VNMs (Its very helpful).

But again i say, Those fall under Bloodpacts. Outside of that If you're /WHM, You get Na's, and a few cures, and haste. thats all the uses from sub job WHM, on /SCH you get the same minus Haste.

So i'm not quite sure what you're trying to say at this point so I'll wait for another response and go from there. I still believe you can't do anything on SMN inbetween BP's that a Mage in your party should already be handling.

Sure, you could help, but realistically they don't need it. Obviously as I said if something huge happens like multiple people getting hit by an AoE due to bad luck, You help cure/na, But that shouldn't happen very often.

There are exceptions to the above, But they happen rarely or only as you said (and as we dont want to bring up) happen in groups where your mages are sub-par and cannot handle their tasks adequately.

My point is that when on SMN I am that mage that you claim should be handling it. I've been in melee parties and buffed them well, with no complaints. If I'm on SMN there's at most a WHM in the party so my support helps alot more than you think.

SMN support is only superflous if support is already covered, but the same is true of any support role. I wouldnt put a SMN in a group with a WHM + another support mage as that would be overkill, but SMN contributes just fine if it's SMN + WHM or RDM or SCH as the support in a party.

[Malamasala]

I've been in melee parties and buffed them well, with no complaints.

It is the opposite you need to look for. Complaints about buffs they aren't getting. I rarely ever hear anyone ask for buffs when I play SMN. They simply think the job doesn't have any useful ones.

I've been in melee parties and not buffed them, with no complaints. SMN is viewed as that odd job that nobody cares what it does, as long as it doesn't lagg the screen or feed TP.

[Razushu]

It is the opposite you need to look for. Complaints about buffs they aren't getting. I rarely ever hear anyone ask for buffs when I play SMN. They simply think the job doesn't have any useful ones.

I've been in melee parties and not buffed them, with no complaints. SMN is viewed as that odd job that nobody cares what it does, as long as it doesn't lagg the screen or feed TP.

I've gone to plenty of things and been asked to focus on buffs and heals. By complaints I meant "Why is there a SMN buffing us where's our BRD, COR?".

Sometimes those parties are great, if you don't feel like doing much that night :D

[Malamasala]

Sometimes those parties are great, if you don't feel like doing much that night

That is one thing I can't deny. It is very relaxing to play SMN. (Unless you are solo kiting something)

[Dallas]

I've been in melee parties and not buffed them, with no complaints. SMN is viewed as that odd job that nobody cares what it does, as long as it doesn't lagg the screen or feed TP.

You! Take the words "feed TP" and throw it outside. Shut the door when the idiots chase it outside.

[Razushu]

You! Take the words "feed TP" and throw it outside. Shut the door when the idiots chase it outside.

Dallas the TP feed argument isn't "Ugh you're feeding TP stop meleeing" it's actually "That damage you're doing better be worth the TP you're feeding", just thought you should know.

[Korpg]

Dallas the TP feed argument isn't "Ugh you're feeding TP stop meleeing" it's actually "That damage you're doing better be worth the TP you're feeding", just thought you should know.

But that makes sense! You can't make sense when Dallas is around. You have to make outrageous claims like doing 10x damage than a Ukon WAR naked.

[Karbuncle]

My point is that when on SMN I am that mage that you claim should be handling it. I've been in melee parties and buffed them well, with no complaints. If I'm on SMN there's at most a WHM in the party so my support helps alot more than you think.

SMN support is only superflous if support is already covered, but the same is true of any support role. I wouldnt put a SMN in a group with a WHM + another support mage as that would be overkill, but SMN contributes just fine if it's SMN + WHM or RDM or SCH as the support in a party.

And my point is a SMN will not always be in that position. not every groups forgoes a support-class or seems to need more than 1 mage to cover a haste cycle, to invite a SMN, Sometimes a SMN is there for DD, and In those situations, the ones I more or less was talking about, You're better of meleeing so long as theres nothing extenuating to prevent it, I.E Heavy AoEs, Mobs with Nasty TP moves where it would be wiser to keep TP feed down (Theres very few of those), and etc.

Its not about "Melee is perfect for everything", What your describing is clearly and obviously a situation where melee would not be a good idea, And I'm not saying SMN melee has a huge place. Its a very small place.

In the risk of talking in circles and not being able to shake the feeling im not explaining something right. The more i think about it the more I have to wonder Why, If a mob has no debilitating* TP moves, SMN are so adamant against Meleeing? If your skill is capped and you have half a brain cell, you can melee and perform your DD/Buffing Tasks if you are so there for them.

*Debilitating as in, Inflicts Silence or Paralyze, Heavy Damage, or specifically dangerous (I.E Erases Cruor buffs or something like Bhuki). However if its a mob like... Pascerpot, Chirrw/e(Djinn), stuff like those with no innately dangerous TP moves or spells (Banishga III might hurt but can be stunned)... Wheres the harm?

Again I'm not advocating melee on every mob, or even a lot of mobs, In fact is very specific locations and situations, and confined to Abyssea specifically, I'm just saying there are some very small/few Situations where it would be slightly more beneficial, After all you can still Cure, -na, and Buff while Meleeing, No? so if you're half competent it should not be a problem.

[Razushu]

And my point is a SMN will not always be in that position. not every groups forgoes a support-class or seems to need more than 1 mage to cover a haste cycle, to invite a SMN, Sometimes a SMN is there for DD, and In those situations, the ones I more or less was talking about, You're better of meleeing so long as theres nothing extenuating to prevent it, I.E Heavy AoEs, Mobs with Nasty TP moves where it would be wiser to keep TP feed down (Theres very few of those), and etc.

If a SMN is there as a DD, chances are very good the mob is for whatever reason not the kind a mage should be meleeing on. SMN has more to offer as support than haste. I wouldn't say you'd be better off, on weaker mobs close to even. TP feed being kept down is always a good idea, unless its a trash/exp mob. Just because because an NM's TP moves aren't "OMG! we're all dead! Oh the humanity!" doesn't mean that more of them won't be a pain.


Its not about "Melee is perfect for everything", What your describing is clearly and obviously a situation where melee would not be a good idea, And I'm not saying SMN melee has a huge place. Its a very small place.

I've said that lots already, I melee on EP/trash mobs all the time, it has niche uses.


In the risk of talking in circles and not being able to shake the feeling im not explaining something right. The more i think about it the more I have to wonder Why, If a mob has no debilitating* TP moves, SMN are so adamant against Meleeing? If your skill is capped and you have half a brain cell, you can melee and perform your DD/Buffing Tasks if you are so there for them.

*Debilitating as in, Inflicts Silence or Paralyze, Heavy Damage, or specifically dangerous (I.E Erases Cruor buffs or something like Bhuki). However if its a mob like... Pascerpot, Chirrw/e(Djinn), stuff like those with no innately dangerous TP moves or spells (Banishga III might hurt but can be stunned)... Wheres the harm?

Mostly because on anything tough mage melee would not be worth the TP it feeds(there was some math in one of the threads here and it showed an empy SMN did about a 1/4* the damage of an empy WAR). A TP move doesn't need to debuff to to be a pain, the mere increase in TP moves could turn a cake walk into a chore, even if it's only putting a larger drain on the healer to keep the tank healthy.

TBH the question I keep asking the more I think about it is, if this was a single player game where you built and controlled a party of 6, how many of us would go out of their way to take a backline character scrape together what meager frontline friendly gear it had available and insist on playing it as a melee?

*This was not counting avatar damage, before Dallas rides in on his trusty big wheel to save the day for melee mages everywhere. Avatar Damage is not part of the mage melee debate as it's there backline or frontline and its main DMG is TP less.


Again I'm not advocating melee on every mob, or even a lot of mobs, In fact is very specific locations and situations, and confined to Abyssea specifically, I'm just saying there are some very small/few Situations where it would be slightly more beneficial, After all you can still Cure, -na, and Buff while Meleeing, No? so if you're half competent it should not be a problem.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, any job can be geared for melee and in Abyssea what the hell go nuts. On anything meaner than trash mobs the slightly extra melee damage is kind of a push when weighed against stuff like the age old TP arguement or extra risk to the mage meleeing.

[Dallas]

Dallas the TP feed argument isn't "Ugh you're feeding TP stop meleeing" it's actually "That damage you're doing better be worth the TP you're feeding", just thought you should know.

Then level staff and get a real weapon. You aren't qualified to speak about SMN damage, tickler.

Remember my aftermath hits hit harder than your Full Swings. LOL

[Razushu]

Then level staff and get a real weapon. You aren't qualified to speak about SMN damage, tickler.

So sayeth the 1/4 WAR.

[Dallas]

You should learn fractions.

[Razushu]

You should learn fractions.

Forget this already? Posted here

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/9679-Do-Relic-Mythic-and-Empyrean-staves-lack-utility/page44



Pretty much what Byrth said.

I ran WAR at approx 1,000 DPS (991.803) under those conditions, completely ignoring self-Light damage (which is a ton).

SMN is clocking in at 253.401 DPS without Garuda (this is probably still too high, since I'm just editing a WAR spreadsheet a bit haphazardly), and 342.289 DPS when you add in Pclaws. An Avatar's basic melee hit that isn't receiving any outside buffs (namely, Haste) is not going to have a huge impact on that number. Let's be generous and say it bumps it up to 400 DPS even?

I'll definitely admit to potential hyperbole in saying that a WAR is going to do 5x SMN's damage. But even giving SMN a lot of leeway, they're not doing even half as much as the Ukon WAR.

WAR = 991.803

SMN = 253.401

That WAR is doing 3.91 times your DMG on SMN. that makes your SMN very close to 1/4 of a WAR.

[Dallas]

LMAO some idiot told you to throw out avatar damage so you did. I posted correctly adjusted numbers that I bet you don't have the guts to acknowledge. Post it, because picking the wrong numbers is in no way making up for your failure with Full Swing.

[Karbuncle]

First i was like "SAY WAAAT" Then i was all "aight"

Have you noticed we're arguing the same thing in two different threads >_>?

[Malamasala]

I'm pretty sure you two are just wasting time trying to argue what you haven't been able to settle the last months. I'm convinced Raz is underestimating the power of SMN, and Dallas overestimating it. I'm sure the job lies at moderate melee damage, where it should be.

[Razushu]

LMAO some idiot told you to throw out avatar damage so you did. I posted correctly adjusted numbers that I bet you don't have the guts to acknowledge. Post it, because picking the wrong numbers is in no way making up for your failure with Full Swing.

Dallas you don't get to count Avatar damage as a positive point of melee SMN as it's there on both styles. We're talking about SMN melee which is in fact 1/4 that of a DD, and avatar damage has nothing to do with melee.

Those are correct numbers, hell they we're even skewed in your favour.

[Razushu]

Have you noticed we're arguing the same thing in two different threads >_>?

We're arguing? I thought we were reaching a consensus:(

What can I say I like to wander.

[Razushu]

I'm pretty sure you two are just wasting time trying to argue what you haven't been able to settle the last months. I'm convinced Raz is underestimating the power of SMN, and Dallas overestimating it. I'm sure the job lies at moderate melee damage, where it should be.

I'm really sorry Mala but it's still fun to mess with Dallas. I'm really not underestimating it, the bolded numbers reflect SMNs powers as a melee, and since it's a mage they're pretty low as is to be expected.

[Karbuncle]

We're arguing? I thought we were reaching a consensus:(

What can I say I like to wander.

I meant arguing as the basic term for conversation/debate.

Not really a "RAGE FITTTTTTT" Just more of a "we're discussing the same thing". Could have worded it better!

[Razushu]

I meant arguing as the basic term for conversation/debate.

Not really a "RAGE FITTTTTTT" Just more of a "we're discussing the same thing". Could have worded it better!

Ah well that's ok, sorry for making you thread hop.

I think we're fairly close to agreed as it is, or I hope so.

[Korpg]

Karby, you either forget Dallas's argument stating that SMN has to melee on everything, or you never seen it.

Dallas, those numbers you tried to correct was so skewed in your favor that saying 1/4 the damage a WAR can do is actually very very very generous. In reality, that number would be closer to 1/7 the damage a WAR can do.

More if you can get people to help you (buffs and whatnot).

This is not saying that SMNs can't melee on every mob, the trash mobs and exp mobs are ok to melee on because they won't kill anyone from the extra TP the SMN feeds (even Sandsweepers in A-Altep). But saying that SMN melees do a lot more damage than actual SMNs is false, and has been debated for months now. Dallas is the only one who doesn't get it.

[Panthera]

Would it break the game if each avatar got its own Blood Pact time set? I don't think so.

But between -BP gear, and separate timers for buffs and attacks, I think we've exhausted SE's generosity.

[Alhanelem]

If you're trying to describe how little generosity there has been, then yes. Otherwise, no.

[Razushu]

Would it break the game if each avatar got its own Blood Pact time set? I don't think so.

But between -BP gear, and separate timers for buffs and attacks, I think we've exhausted SE's generosity.

Except they're planning on adding an ability to increase our BP rate, so I think we'll all have to wait and see what happens. SE has actually only started to be generous to SMNs since 75-90 cap increase(and these cap raises were arguably very rushed), because of this I have high hopes for what we get 90-95 cap which they have taken their time on that we'll see something big.

[Dallas]

Dallas, those numbers

require 4 people to make the WAR do that much damage and every single one of you think that the WAR alone deserves all the credit. I'm not that stupid. I'm 80% of a WAR without the other 3 exempt-from-your-bad-math members, and 75% with them. That fraction increases with the proposed BP timer reduction.

Once again, I reject the math that you cling to, but had no ability to generate on your own.

If the avatar's damage cannot be counted, nor can the buffs that allow the WAR to do that much damage, you are ZERO fraction of WAR. The only damage you are counting, YOU REFUSE TO DO.

Face it, you have to reduce yourself to absolutely nothing to argue against swinging a staff that takes absolutely nothing away from your playstyle. Of course, if you are nothing, it makes sense that I take nothing away.

Bandwagoner, the "5x" idiot conceded that he was exaggerating because he's a hater. You jumping to "7x" is pathetic.

[Malamasala]

Would it break the game if each avatar got its own Blood Pact time set? I don't think so.

SE just enjoys over compensating too much.

Would it have been unbalanced if Mana Cede cost 0 MP? Not at all. It would be like an ELemental Seal that didn't cost 100 MP to use.
Would it have been unbalanced if perpetuation didn't exist?`Not at all. All level 90 SMNs have free avatars these days, and people still play all the other jobs.
Would it have been unbalanced if it wasn't a 25% damage reduction on favors? Not at all, because avatars were never top DDs anyway.

The job is as far away from being overpowered as a rubber duck. That isn't to say that you can't kill someone by tossing a dozen rubber ducks on them.

[Korpg]

require 4 people to make the WAR do that much damage and every single one of you think that the WAR alone deserves all the credit. I'm not that stupid. I'm 80% of a WAR without the other 3 exempt-from-your-bad-math members, and 75% with them. That fraction increases with the proposed BP timer reduction.

Once again, I reject the math that you cling to, but had no ability to generate on your own.

If the avatar's damage cannot be counted, nor can the buffs that allow the WAR to do that much damage, you are ZERO fraction of WAR. The only damage you are counting, YOU REFUSE TO DO.

Face it, you have to reduce yourself to absolutely nothing to argue against swinging a staff that takes absolutely nothing away from your playstyle. Of course, if you are nothing, it makes sense that I take nothing away.

Bandwagoner, the "5x" idiot conceded that he was exaggerating because he's a hater. You jumping to "7x" is pathetic.

Both situations also give you the same buffs.

Haste (spell) is not hard to give. You want it to be a SMN exclusive spell, by the sounds of it.

"Only SMN melee should get Haste, because it is part of their 'abilities' to do so." Sounds familiar?

Haste (gear) is also not hard to get. You still want to give it only to SMN because they can't cap it. You want to base your numbers against a naked melee using the weapon that they have the lowest skill level for.

Haste (Job Ability) is the hardest of all 3 haste you can get, only because 3 jobs can give them: COR, DNC, and DRK. DRK is exclusive to DRK only.

You reject the math because even though it makes the math so much in your favor and so against everyone else, everyone else still beats you in damage 4 to 1. Avatar damage included. But we are talking about the idiot swinging the staff, not the glowing lady with the claws, aren't we?

Only way you can beat me in damage is if I use Throwing exclusively, not even having my weapon drawn out, but using a level 19 Flame Boomerang for damage. Then you can beat me in damage. Compare an Emp staff to a level 19 Throwing weapon, you barely edge me out. Real smooth.

But of course, I don't mind you swinging your staff like a "special person," but telling everyone you can outdamage everyone because you have a staff, that is a bunch of....stuff I don't want deleted here.

But wait, I thought you didn't accept the math, how can you accept the 5x as an argument if you don't accept the math in the first place?

[Dallas]

I'm sure the job lies at moderate melee damage, where it should be.

Cop out. If melee damage is "moderate," what is wrong with attaching a word significantly better than "moderate" to the combined damage of Avatar + melee? I don't care where the damage comes from, I simply deal as much as I can as fast as I can.

Bandwagoner, didn't read your post. No one really cares what someone else told you to say.

[Korpg]

Hey Dallas, what is the hardest mob you have ever melee soloed before?

If you want people to start believing in you, start telling everyone what you have done, not what you think you have done.

[Razushu]

require 4 people to make the WAR do that much damage and every single one of you think that the WAR alone deserves all the credit. I'm not that stupid. I'm 80% of a WAR without the other 3 exempt-from-your-bad-math members, and 75% with them. That fraction increases with the proposed BP timer reduction.

Once again, I reject the math that you cling to, but had no ability to generate on your own.

If the avatar's damage cannot be counted, nor can the buffs that allow the WAR to do that much damage, you are ZERO fraction of WAR. The only damage you are counting, YOU REFUSE TO DO.

Face it, you have to reduce yourself to absolutely nothing to argue against swinging a staff that takes absolutely nothing away from your playstyle. Of course, if you are nothing, it makes sense that I take nothing away.

Bandwagoner, the "5x" idiot conceded that he was exaggerating because he's a hater. You jumping to "7x" is pathetic.

Dallas in those numbers, the SMN is getting the same buffs as the WAR in fact GG even states that the SMN numbers are taken from the WARs sheet just edited to fit a SMN. The upcoming BP delay ability has no bearing on melee whatsoever, or are you still trying to pretend melee is the only way to keep up MP?

You reject the math because it hurts your cae, and you have no ability to generate your own, because we all know(you secretly) that SMN is incapable of the numbers you claim.

Dallas, if the WAR loses the buffs so does the SMN leaving the ratio the same. BPs cannot be counted as a bonus of your melee, because they are not an aspect of SMN melee any moreso than nukes are an aspect of BLM melee.


The argument against mage melee is still there, has always been there and will always be there, why? Because it's valid. This isn't saying that a mage can't melee if the situation allows for it just that it's mostly never worth it and there's always someone better you can et to melee.

As a melee the WAR did 3.91 times the damage of the SMN, thats x4. The SMN did 1/4 what the WAR did its not1/5 but it's close enough. The parse looks better for you because they wrongfully counted the Avatar as well(frankly to be nice), but seeing as this was evidence in the case for/against SMN melee and Avatars can be used just as well from the backline they don't factor in.

[Razushu]

Cop out. If melee damage is "moderate," what is wrong with attaching a word significantly better than "moderate" to the combined damage of Avatar + melee? I don't care where the damage comes from, I simply deal as much as I can as fast as I can.

Bandwagoner, didn't read your post. No one really cares what someone else told you to say.

You can't rely on your Avatars to make up the difference, when you're trying to sell your melee. And please try to remember even with the Avatar factored in SMN was <1/2 of the WAR. Which seems bad, but try to remember we're not DDs we're a pet support/DD hybrid.

[Ravenmore]

Do you really think they're just making stuff up with no intention of actually doing it? Did you know that many of these abilities/spells already have animations in the DAT files as of the most recent update?

This is a result of funny story telling and the telephone game. They NEVER said this. They said we were getting 2 new avatars, and that they wanted us to be able to keep our summons out more. Two seperate things, and both of them were achieved. They said NOTHING about the new avatars specifically being the ones we'd summon longer.

They used the word "example" to say that the exact changes are not set in stone, e.g. they could change. I won't blame you for being skeptical, as SMN tends to get the short end of the stick, but these changes are backed up by new data in the data files.

Finally, to reinforce this further, they would not name SPECIFIC avatars if they were not going to implement them.

They did it before, and it ony took them 3 years to give out 2 new avatars. Sure rng woulda like to have gotten the -emnity for range attacks then they said "made you look" on the day of the update. I don't even play snm could care less but you have to take what ever SE says they going to do with a grain of salt. Till its in the game I won't bank on anything.

[Dallas]

Tell us Raz, if my avatar's damage and buffs are not party contribution, why are you still a summoner?

How about we rephrase your bad fractions to "Dallas is approximately 25% of 3 people buffing a WAR superior to Raz?"

[Razushu]

Tell us Raz, if my avatar's damage and buffs are not party contribution, why are you still a summoner?

Not talking about party contribution. Avatar, buffs, heals etc. can be used backline, so they have no place in a discussion about melee. If you want to justify a mages place upfront with the big boys, you have to do it with your melee alone.You can't rely on anything you can do just as easily, if not more so from the backline.

When arguing for mage melee you can count melee gear, buffs YOU recieve and /ja's that directly enhance YOUR DPS only. You can't rely on buffs you give to people, a pet that doesn't require you to frontline to use or anything else that has no bearing on your melee. A WAR can't count the extra damage done by his team mates when he uses War cry when calculating his own melee damage output, now can he?

[Korpg]

How about you tell us what mobs you have melee'd solo.

[Leonlionheart]

Tell us Raz, if my avatar's damage and buffs are not party contribution, why are you still a summoner?

How about we rephrase your bad fractions to "Dallas is approximately 25% of 3 people buffing a WAR superior to Raz?"

K then SMN is <1/2 of a DRK without any support and <.05% of a WAR with 1 BRD?

[Alaik]

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/topics/backnumber/detail/060330_2.html

Bottom of the page. Unless there was some release I have never saw they never said you guys were getting 2 avatars before this CaitSith and Atomos. Thinking of =! We will. I'm really not sure why SMNs were always up in arms about this.

What gets me is the "We were promised 2 new avatars and didn't get them for 2 years!" is so prominent when the big lie in that post had nothing to do with SMN at all.

[Concerned4FFxi]

i luv smn but shorting bp is too much, i wouldnt mind having each avatars bp set, this would make changing avatars dangerous if not properly buffed so that you can swicth and bp with that new avatart so this to me would be fair as theres a point that you'll have to reapply buffs before you release/summon/bp a new one.

[Korpg]

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/topics/backnumber/detail/060330_2.html

Bottom of the page. Unless there was some release I have never saw they never said you guys were getting 2 avatars before this CaitSith and Atomos. Thinking of =! We will. I'm really not sure why SMNs were always up in arms about this.

What gets me is the "We were promised 2 new avatars and didn't get them for 2 years!" is so prominent when the big lie in that post had nothing to do with SMN at all.

Not sure if I understand you. Can you repost or edit your post to be more understandable please?

[Razushu]

Not sure if I understand you. Can you repost or edit your post to be more understandable please?

I think he's saying that SE never promised us new avatars in '06 or even before they said they're giving us Cait Sith & Atomos, and wondering why SMNs were always so vocal about not getting "promised" avatars for so long.

He may be implying that the "where's our new avatars" discussions that went on for years was silly, and there was a lie somewhere in that post. I really can't be sure however.

[Dallas]

Not talking about party contribution. Avatar, buffs, heals etc. can be used backline, so they have no place in a discussion about melee.

So you are really going to pretend you have some sort of monopoly on avatar buffs because you are too lazy to level staff?

[Razushu]

So you are really going to pretend you have some sort of monopoly on avatar buffs because you are too lazy to level staff?

No I'm saying you can't count non-melee contribution when you're trying to push mage melee. It's a very simple concept, if it's not melee it doesn't count as melee contribution. Party buffs and Avatar damage will always be there front or backline. You can't use them to boost weak melee numbers, and hope nobody notices.

[Karbuncle]

No I'm saying you can't count non-melee contribution when you're trying to push mage melee. It's a very simple concept, if it's not melee it doesn't count as melee contribution. Party buffs and Avatar damage will always be there front or backline. You can't use them to boost weak melee numbers, and hope nobody notices.

Only to the bold. ONLY.

I found, With say, Capped haste values (Double March, Haste, etc etc, You know what i mean!) that Ifrit's new BP:Ward can be a amazing enhancement to damage. Imagine a THF with Soul-voiced March, amongst other buffs, landing an additional 35 damage a swing!

Its a pretty epic BP when utilized correctly.

Anyway, I know thats not exactly what you were talking about of course, I just thought I'd bring it up.

[Leonlionheart]

Only to the bold. ONLY.

I found, With say, Capped haste values (Double March, Haste, etc etc, You know what i mean!) that Ifrit's new BP:Ward can be a amazing enhancement to damage. Imagine a THF with Soul-voiced March, amongst other buffs, landing an additional 35 damage a swing!

Its a pretty epic BP when utilized correctly.

Anyway, I know thats not exactly what you were talking about of course, I just thought I'd bring it up.

BRD+COR+SMN+NIN+NIN+NIN

Marchx2(or with +4 March and Soulvoice March+Minuet)Blitzer's Roll+Crit Roll(or DA, or Attack)+Ramuh's Favor+That Ifrit's BP:W.

Lots o DPS

[Malamasala]

Unless you have a DNC for 10% delay reduction and they don't want en-spells ruining it.

[Razushu]

Only to the bold. ONLY.

I found, With say, Capped haste values (Double March, Haste, etc etc, You know what i mean!) that Ifrit's new BP:Ward can be a amazing enhancement to damage. Imagine a THF with Soul-voiced March, amongst other buffs, landing an additional 35 damage a swing!

Its a pretty epic BP when utilized correctly.

Anyway, I know thats not exactly what you were talking about of course, I just thought I'd bring it up.

The boost to our wards lately have been amazing, I hope they keep up the good work.

[Karbuncle]

Unless you have a DNC for 10% delay reduction and they don't want en-spells ruining it.

Except a DNC isn't required to cap haste =.=a. (I think!)

With Dual Wield being considered in the absolute Delay Reduction, Jobs like NIN, THF, and DNC (ones described) in reality only need about... I can't remember the exact number, But 25% gear haste/+Spell+ Double March should cover that to cap their Delay Reduction, no DNC Required. (This isn't even including Blitzers roll!)

I know Capped Haste from gear is 25% (26% is the Shown Number, You only get 25% in reality its just 26% is required in shown numbers because how its caculated... blah blah), 43% in magical.

That in itself is 68%, I think Dual Wield would cap the rest. This is of course excluding 2handed DD, minus DRK, who can cap JA haste with Desperate Blows.

[Korpg]

Wait, didn't anyone else get what Dallas really ment?

If Infernal Howl ~40 Enfire damage increases damage output on a staff by a lot, isn't that horrible damage output by staff in the first place?

Does that mean that Dallas's number are all a lie and Dallas was the one who proved it? /mindblown

[kingfury]

If someone has already suggested this I apologize, but if you're asking for more activity while on SMN in regards to melee, it would make the most sense to simply allow the Summoner to be Possessed by Avatars in order to toggle between "Stand and watch mode" and "Melee mode". This would open the job itself to new versatility in both solo and party situations while vastly expanding on the current and possible SMN specific "Joint weaponskills" and "Joint spells" that could be birthed from such a union. If a SMN can conjure up an Avatar to fight alongside them, then why not from within as well?

SMN Job Ability- Possession:

Instead of summoning an avatar to fight near by or far away from the summoner, this job ability would summon them to fight from within the summoner themselves. Once this JA is active, the avatar’s strength would now be imbued within the summoner’s melee attacks and new joint weaponskills and joint spells. Additionally, any attack traits associated with the current possessed avatar(such as double attack, Attack speed, def bonus, etc.) would be inherited by the summoner. MP would still be the defining conduit that determines the duration of time the Summoner could remain possessed by an Avatar, and the JA would cease to function should MP fall below a certain amount.
•Possession example (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/SMNPossession-1.jpg)

Similar to how Blood Pacts unlock dozens of individual abilities, Possession would unlock an equally vast number of Joint weaponskills and Joint spells per selected Avatar.

Joint Weaponskills:

A "Joint Weaponskill" would be the combination of an Avatar's special attack with that of the selected weapon being wielded by the summoner. Not so much the marrying of Eclipse Bite with Full Swing per say, but rather the creation of a new weaponskill all together like "Eclipse Smash" that would only be available while wielding a staff and being possessed by Fenrir. These new weaponskills would be dependent on TP rather than Blood Pact timers. The strength of these weaponskills could be drawn from both combat and summoning skill levels.
Joint Spells:

Based on the selected Avatar, the list of Joint spells could be swapped based on the situation at hand. These spells would be considered "Joint" due to the fact that both the Summoner and the Avatar would be casting the spell vs just the Avatar. This could, however, alter certain spells design from being party only spells to being target specific spells like "Hasteja" and "Earthen Mold" for example. Spells cast while Possession is in effect could grant a reduction in MP cost per spell to allow some flexibility since MP will be steadily draining while the JA is in use.
This would not be in any way out of context for what a SMN is in terms of job function within this game, but rather just another mode to perform that job function in. The Dev team wouldn't have to introduce any new gear or abilities that would cause them to rework the job function-wise for this new JA to work. Simply combine the two entities and introduce a myriad of new effects and abilities that would allow SMNs to be more active than ever before.

WARs have Berserk and Defender to toggle between during combat. SAMs have Hasso and Seigan. NINs have Innin and Yonin. This would be the SMN's equivalent. It would also be friggin' awesome to see.

[Dallas]

No I'm saying you can't count non-melee contribution when you're trying to push mage melee.

I sure can, and I do. My pet deals damage which supplements my melee damage. It's called addition, and it's a pretty easy concept. My buffs add damage to all melee. "Add" is the verb form of "addition."

If you start today, I bet you could master addition before FFXI dies. Get started, because I hate dumbing my posts down this much.

[Leonlionheart]

Except a DNC isn't required to cap haste =.=a. (I think!)

I know Capped Haste from gear is 25% (26% is the Shown Number, You only get 25% in reality its just 26% is required in shown numbers because how its caculated... blah blah), 43% in magical.

That in itself is 68%, I think Dual Wield would cap the rest. This is of course excluding 2handed DD, minus DRK, who can cap JA haste with Desperate Blows.

I think DW would only cap it on NIN? I'm really confused as to how DW works in conjunction to haste, considering NIN's base trait is 35% (IIRC) and that with Gear Haste would be 60% already, making Haste get it to 75%. AF1 body is 5% DW, which would cap it.

However any NIN that's played with a BRD knows that March breaks your swing animations @_@

[Karbuncle]

I think DW would only cap it on NIN? I'm really confused as to how DW works in conjunction to haste, considering NIN's base trait is 35% (IIRC) and that with Gear Haste would be 60% already, making Haste get it to 75%. AF1 body is 5% DW, which would cap it.

However any NIN that's played with a BRD knows that March breaks your swing animations @_@

I'm confused on how Haste/Dual Wield interact as well, I do know they both count toward the 80% "Haste Cap" though, So with high Dual Wield you rarely need JA Haste throw in the mix, Even then theres Blitzers Roll for 1 handed DD, and Hasse/LR(DRK) for 2handed.

[Mordanthos]

why not just have the summoner control the....Summon. I'd rather run around as Fenrir and control his movements and skills/abilities at the same time. Whats wrong with losing control of your character and gaining full control over the Avatar.

However, something tells me, that SE just cant code that if there career depended on it. Because things like Mind Control in WoW are just too hard to convert into FFXI.

[Dallas]

Eww, no. The taru SMN need to keep faceplanting.

[Razushu]

I sure can, and I do. My pet deals damage which supplements my melee damage. It's called addition, and it's a pretty easy concept. My buffs add damage to all melee. "Add" is the verb form of "addition."

If you start today, I bet you could master addition before FFXI dies. Get started, because I hate dumbing my posts down this much.

No they don't supplement your melee damage, they deal damage on their own. You also can't count buffs the other party members recieve into your melee damage. Avatars will deal the same damage if you aren't meleeing and you can still apply the buffs from there too. If you're ever going to justify SMN melee it needs to be from the melee alone. The only things that can count is your personal DPS, buffs you recieve from gear, spells and job abilities.

You can't use hastega on a party and then claim you're doing 15% of the damage. You're not they are you just gave them hastega. The BP hastega is not factored into your melee damage, the haste you recieve is though. Get it? It's a really simple concept.

Your posts are dumb already and not on purpose.

[Razushu]

Eww, no. The melee SMN need's to keep faceplanting.

I fixed this for you.

[Leonlionheart]

Eww, no. The melee SMN need to gtfo ffxi.

fixed it better

[Malamasala]

No they don't supplement your melee damage, they deal damage on their own. You also can't count buffs the other party members recieve into your melee damage. Avatars will deal the same damage if you aren't meleeing and you can still apply the buffs from there too. If you're ever going to justify SMN melee it needs to be from the melee alone. The only things that can count is your personal DPS, buffs you recieve from gear, spells and job abilities.

You can't use hastega on a party and then claim you're doing 15% of the damage. You're not they are you just gave them hastega. The BP hastega is not factored into your melee damage, the haste you recieve is though. Get it? It's a really simple concept.

Your posts are dumb already and not on purpose.

You keep making the same mistake yourself. If Dallas can't use his Summoner tools to advocate melee, then you can't use them to advocate backline play. That leaves the discussion at "Melee staff damage vs cures/-na spells".

And I'd say which of these are better, simply depends on party setup. You got a WHM? Go melee. You have no healing support? Please help cure.

I.e. Melee on Summoner when the situation allows it. Else it is like playing WAR and never tanking, because you think the job is only about doing damage. Most jobs can cover more than one role. (Don't try and tank on SMN though)

[Leonlionheart]

You keep making the same mistake yourself. If Dallas can't use his Summoner tools to advocate melee, then you can't use them to advocate backline play. That leaves the discussion at "Melee staff damage vs cures/-na spells".

And I'd say which of these are better, simply depends on party setup. You got a WHM? Go melee. You have no healing support? Please help cure.

I.e. Melee on Summoner when the situation allows it. Else it is like playing WAR and never tanking, because you think the job is only about doing damage. Most jobs can cover more than one role. (Don't try and tank on SMN though)

1. WAR can't tank, outside of getting cure bomb'd in abyssea (which I do all the time), in which case even SMN can tank. WAR's only real role is DD. Nothing else.

2. The situation that calls for SMN to be meleeing is only in EXP parties. Otherwise you are potentially causing harm to other players by feeding the mob needless TP, as SMN gets 0 Subtle Blow traits. Meaning 10tp per time you hit it. If you're hasted and geared correctly, and assuming you're hitting the target, it becomes a serious issue on mobs that like to AoE (Orthrus, Azdaja, Etc.) Now you will say that WAR, DRG, DRK, or SAM also have no native Subtle Blow, which is correct. The difference is the damage dealt per tp given. The ratio of damage dealt by WAR to TP given to mob is vastly different from that of SMN. The highest damage I've seen a SMN do with a staff is 400. RR+SS+MM Crit, on a blunt weak mob. That's 40:1. WAR on the other hand, can easily deal up to 1200 per hit, and even up to 2000. 120:1, or 200:1. This is all before factoring in WS's, which would increase the DMG:TP ratio of WAR, DRG, DRK, and SAM greatly. I think you are starting to see why SMN Melee really doesn't contribute.

3. Additional Cures are always preferred in my opinion, since it alleviates much stress on the WHM- even if the WHM's MP is fine. Cure VI does have a recast you know, and Curaga IV over and over will drain MP, even in Abyssea.

[Razushu]

You keep making the same mistake yourself. If Dallas can't use his Summoner tools to advocate melee, then you can't use them to advocate backline play. That leaves the discussion at "Melee staff damage vs cures/-na spells".

And I'd say which of these are better, simply depends on party setup. You got a WHM? Go melee. You have no healing support? Please help cure.

I.e. Melee on Summoner when the situation allows it. Else it is like playing WAR and never tanking, because you think the job is only about doing damage. Most jobs can cover more than one role. (Don't try and tank on SMN though)

SMN isn't a melee, just so you know. So meleeing is not something that you can or should expect to do in a party. As a non-melee melee you'll need to convince people that your melee is worth it. Predator Claws is not a case for SMN melee because you don't need to be engaged to do it. As such they don't factor into a case for mage melee.

Your melee damage needs to stand on it's own if you want to be accepted(I'm pretty sure you said somewhere that you only consider your melee damage a bonus, so this doesn't really apply to you). If you're doing 1/4 of the damage of a melee, you're not justifying a melee slot, and you can't start adding non-melee elements into it to make up the numbers.

My point is if you're going to justify a place up front you can't use tools that are available totally seperate to melee. For instance you can't say I'm hasting the party so as a melee I'm doing 15% of the party's damage.


I've said the bolded from the start.

[Korpg]

Get started, because I hate dumbing my posts down this much.

But you are so good at it though. I mean look, Melee only SMN is probably the dumbest post ever. Right next to beating Ukon WAR and only Emp Staff has unlimited MP posts too.

[Karbuncle]

Wouldn't it theoretically be possible to perform your backline duties (Curing, -na's, Etc) on some mobs while still Meleeing? I mean, Typical Exp Mob A) Dies at decent past, no Silence-AoEs, No horrible AoEs period, Isn't it still possible in that situation to melee and perform your backline tasks, without running of dying/etc?

Meh, whats his name has been saying this so its more or less talking in circles. I think what i'm trying to say is you can do both, But i truly agree Razushu, In reality its more about convincing your party your damage is worth it (really in an exp alliance who cares). Outside of exp though i can't speak on it.

I'd like to run a Melee-SMN parse like someone did a Melee-RDM parse in that one thread, just to truly see where it stands. You would have to count the Avatar, to be frank its a part of the job, just like Automatons to PUPs, and Jugs to BSTs!

[Malamasala]

I'd like to run a Melee-SMN parse like someone did a Melee-RDM parse in that one thread, just to truly see where it stands. You would have to count the Avatar, to be frank its a part of the job, just like Automatons to PUPs, and Jugs to BSTs!

It would be fun indeed, though you basically need an empyrean staff to be able to tell how far off Dallas is.

[Karbuncle]

Actually, as crazy as this sounds, One of my good SMN friends (well, my GF, yay sani :3) Is working on that Staff. We figured it'd be fun to do.

We'll try to get her to the 85 sometime and try this out. She owns a Zelus Tiara and other basic gear, saddly her SMN ASA pants are used for Elemental Siphon Atm, Doubt she'd change it... She doesn't have perfect Melee gear either so its a toss up.

I'm going to try and parse it though, No doubt, just to see exactly how far behind it falls. I'll probably parse it against my THF, WAR, MNK, and maybe something like my DRK and PUP, just to see where it stands against each one.

[Razushu]

Wouldn't it theoretically be possible to perform your backline duties (Curing, -na's, Etc) on some mobs while still Meleeing? I mean, Typical Exp Mob A) Dies at decent past, no Silence-AoEs, No horrible AoEs period, Isn't it still possible in that situation to melee and perform your backline tasks, without running of dying/etc?

Meh, whats his name has been saying this so its more or less talking in circles. I think what i'm trying to say is you can do both, But i truly agree Razushu, In reality its more about convincing your party your damage is worth it (really in an exp alliance who cares). Outside of exp though i can't speak on it.

I'd like to run a Melee-SMN parse like someone did a Melee-RDM parse in that one thread, just to truly see where it stands. You would have to count the Avatar, to be frank its a part of the job, just like Automatons to PUPs, and Jugs to BSTs!

Yes and BSTs and PUPs both also have to prove themselves to be good frontline DDs before pets are counted. They are invited to groups as DDs because the master is also a good source of damage, otherwise they would be backline only and use the pet to do the bulk of the work. Pets count as part of the job and are counted when deciding if the job is contributing well as a whole. But when deciding they're a worthwhile melee or not it's different, the master needs to perform well as a standalone melee.

[Karbuncle]

Yes and BSTs and PUPs both also have to prove themselves to be good frontline DDs before pets are counted. They are invited to groups as DDs because the master is also a good source of damage, otherwise they would be backline only and use the pet to do the bulk of the work. Pets count as part of the job and are counted when deciding if the job is contributing well as a whole. But when deciding they're a worthwhile melee or not it's different, the master needs to perform well as a standalone melee.

Its the reason i really wanna see how far back SMN stands through a parse or something similar. MATHS would work as well though

[Razushu]

Its the reason i really wanna see how far back SMN stands through a parse or something similar. MATHS would work as well though

That's fair enough, sorry I misunderstood your post.

Only maths I've seen on the subject puts a SMN melee at about 1/4 of a WAR.

[Malamasala]

Remember to compare WAR with staff vs SMN with staff too. I'm quite certain the only reason WAR is so far ahead, is their WS selection.

[Razushu]

Remember to compare WAR with staff vs SMN with staff too. I'm quite certain the only reason WAR is so far ahead, is their WS selection.

That honestly is desperate grasping, and I wouldn't have expected it from you. Why on earth would the WAR use a staff? The reason the WAR is so far ahead is because it's a DD class. There is no trick there it was a SMN with it's best melee weapon vs a WAR with the same, recieving the same buffs. The WAR is ahead because it was designed as a DD with, armor choices, jas, stats, and traits designed to make it one of the most physically imposing job classes in the game. Comparing SMN to a WAR as a melee and expecting the SMN to even place, is like backing a bucket of KFC in a cockfight. You will be disappointed.

[Raxiaz]

Haven't we already decided that tying one's arm behind one's back is not the ideal solution to a problem or comparison in an MMORPG?

@Razushu: Haha, couldn't have said it better myself.

[Korpg]

Remember to compare WAR with staff vs SMN with staff too. I'm quite certain the only reason WAR is so far ahead, is their WS selection.

Do you want the SMN to have full buffs and the WAR without buffs, or do you want the WAR to be naked without a weapon while the SMN can be fully geared?

Or both?

[Dallas]

Actually, as crazy as this sounds, One of my good SMN friends (well, my GF, yay sani :3) Is working on that Staff. We figured it'd be fun to do.

We'll try to get her to the 85 sometime and try this out. She owns a Zelus Tiara and other basic gear, saddly her SMN ASA pants are used for Elemental Siphon Atm, Doubt she'd change it... She doesn't have perfect Melee gear either so its a toss up.

I'm going to try and parse it though, No doubt, just to see exactly how far behind it falls. I'll probably parse it against my THF, WAR, MNK, and maybe something like my DRK and PUP, just to see where it stands against each one.

I know Korpg has repeated his illiteracy enough that everyone thinks he knows what I said. It's too much trouble to find the misread post, but I'm sure the gimp twins have it bookmarked. When they post the link to save face, keep reading for GG to ask for clarification and the clarification I give.

When you do your parses, you have a choice: play to SMNs weaknesses or play to WARs weaknesses. A WAR/SAM isn't soloing squat, and an avatar isn't going to cap haste. Choose the answer you want before asking the question. That's what everyone else does.

[Leonlionheart]

Remember to compare WAR with staff vs SMN with staff too. I'm quite certain the only reason WAR is so far ahead, is their WS selection.

Same skill, let's say 400 attack base.

Showing Attack:
WAR:
AF3+2 Body: 20
AF3+2 Legs: 15
AF3 Earring: 3
Atheling Mantle: 20
AF3 Ammo: 8
=66 ON TP SET.

SMN:
Um... Aesir Earring: 7
Aesir Mantle: 8
Keen Ring: 7
Torque: 7(From skill)
Danger Grip(LOL): 5
Ammo: At most I think 4? IDK but I'll give it to you.
=38 ON TP SET

Half. Accuracy is worse.

Berserk: +25%
Warcry: +35

SMN:

Warcry: +35

Best WS: Cataclysm for both.

Even if SMN had A+ Skill, and a weaponskill on par with Ukko's, pDIF would be SEVERELY undercapped, meaning you'd be doing 25~50% of the damage a WAR would be with it.

[Dallas]

LLH, you do realise that 400+38 is not half of 400+66, right? It's 94%.

[Leonlionheart]

Actually, as crazy as this sounds, One of my good SMN friends (well, my GF, yay sani :3) Is working on that Staff. We figured it'd be fun to do.

We'll try to get her to the 85 sometime and try this out. She owns a Zelus Tiara and other basic gear, saddly her SMN ASA pants are used for Elemental Siphon Atm, Doubt she'd change it... She doesn't have perfect Melee gear either so its a toss up.

I'm going to try and parse it though, No doubt, just to see exactly how far behind it falls. I'll probably parse it against my THF, WAR, MNK, and maybe something like my DRK and PUP, just to see where it stands against each one.

You're on Asura, if you see me around I can parse with you. WAR90 Ukon90, MNK90 Revenent Fists +2, and a poorly geared DRK with Twilight Scythe, probably will have a DRG90 with some crap gear by the end of today.

I also have SMN90 if you want another SMN, but I won't have comparable gear to your SMN gf.

[Dallas]

Oh separate post because shame is shame, no matter how you post it:

Cataclysm modifiers are INT and MAB. LOL.

[Leonlionheart]

LLH, you do realise that 400+38 is not half of 400+66, right? It's 94%.

It's 627(Berserk+Warcry), 33% DA, 8% DA ODD, and 15% TA vs 473 Attack (After ifrit's warcry)

Ok you're right it's not 50% its 75%. Only considering Attack and pDIF.

[Leonlionheart]

Oh separate post because shame is shame, no matter how you post it:

Cataclysm modifiers are INT and MAB. LOL.

Edited, you can TP in Aesir and stuff if you have the accuracy anyway.

SMN gets +14 more mab in gear than WAR does, and around 30 more INT than WAR does, so I guess that would be a factor.

[Korpg]

A WAR/SAM isn't soloing squat

Neither is a melee SMN. Unless you want to prove otherwise.

Tell us, for this is the 10th time I asked you this question: What is the hardest mob you have ever melee soloed as SMN?

Not my fault if it is something that is DC or lower to a level 90.

[Dallas]

The shame is ours to share, as I'm pretty sure attack and weapon rating are not modifiers. The best weapon for Cataclysm is OA4 Yantok +2. For WAR, it's Pluto's staff.

WAR's advantage is having the WS natively, as already stated. SMN/WAR is kinda pointless, and SMN/WHM even more so.

EDIT: Korpg, keep asking because you aren't annoying enough yet.

[Razushu]

The shame is ours to share, as I'm pretty sure attack and weapon rating are not modifiers. The best weapon for Cataclysm is OA4 Yantok +2. For WAR, it's Pluto's staff.

WAR's advantage is having the WS natively, as already stated. SMN/WAR is kinda pointless, and SMN/WHM even more so.

EDIT: Korpg, keep asking because you aren't annoying enough yet.

You're aware that this is all theory craft, aren't you? IRL that WAR is bringing a Great Axe and demolishing you, you know that right?

[Dallas]

And 3 flunkies to buff him and only him. We know, so stop posting.

[Korpg]

And 3 flunkies to buff him and only him. We know, so stop posting.

Buff the SMN also, but I guess that doesn't count either.

Also, you don't have an answer for the solo question, don't ya? Cause you never soloed anything?

[Leonlionheart]

The shame is ours to share, as I'm pretty sure attack and weapon rating are not modifiers. The best weapon for Cataclysm is OA4 Yantok +2. For WAR, it's Pluto's staff.

WAR's advantage is having the WS natively, as already stated. SMN/WAR is kinda pointless, and SMN/WHM even more so.

EDIT: Korpg, keep asking because you aren't annoying enough yet.

Um... SMN/WHM?

[Leonlionheart]

And 3 flunkies to buff him and only him. We know, so stop posting.

I only take the one BRD... And I guess A WHM but if you're doing party play you'd want those too.

Even without them WAR, DRK, DRG, SAM, MNK, NIN, THF, DNC, PUP, BLU, am I missing anyone? oh, BST, RNG, BRDmelee, will all do more damage than SMN going and hitting something.

FFS Club Empyrean has only 20 less damage than Staff at 90.

[Razushu]

And 3 flunkies to buff him and only him. We know, so stop posting.

You're getting the same buffs in these comparisions, hell the WAR in this example is even using a staff, and you're still not happy(is it because you know you'll still lose?).

[Korpg]

Um... SMN/WHM?

Yeah, he rather pass up Double Attack and Attack Bonus for that coveted Haste spell he can't get elsewhere as SMN

...oh wai...

[Leonlionheart]

Yeah, he rather pass up Double Attack and Attack Bonus for that coveted Haste spell he can't get elsewhere as SMN

...oh wai...

he needs the MP from /whm to keep his smn out because he keeps wiffing and can't get his TP to use his fabled myrkr...

[Korpg]

he needs the MP from /whm to keep his smn out because he keeps wiffing and can't get his TP to use his fabled myrkr...

That's what TP wings are there for.

But considering that we are talking about abyssea, I think it is safe to assume a 75% hit rate for him.

[Leonlionheart]

This whole melee smn thing is silly.

Fun to play with, no real practicality. Something tells me, though, that Dallas doesn't really play ffxi very much

[Raxiaz]

The shame is ours to share, as I'm pretty sure attack and weapon rating are not modifiers. The best weapon for Cataclysm is OA4 Yantok +2. For WAR, it's Pluto's staff.


what? pluto's staff? i would've thought jupiter's.

[Razushu]

what? pluto's staff? i would've thought jupiter's.

sssshhhhh! He's trying to stack the deck.

[Leonlionheart]

He's right about pluto's for Cataclysm. Darkness Elemental WS. With staff, TP phase doesn't matter as much, since it's the worst weapon type anyway.

[Malamasala]

You're getting the same buffs in these comparisions, hell the WAR in this example is even using a staff, and you're still not happy(is it because you know you'll still lose?).

Well, getting buffs at all sounds like more theory than a melee SMN. I can probably count on my fingers how many times I've had BRD buffs while meleeing on SMN. And that is covering a decade of playing.

Best comparison will be:

WAR + staff + no support
SMN + staff + predator claws + no support

That will show where SMN lies due to armor selection and stats. Everything else is pretty much scaling issues. G.Axe scaling far better than staff in damage for example, or buffs scaling WAR's base stats better than SMN's base stats.

Think of it like searching for an elemental spells base damage. You are looking for a SMNs base "WAR" value. It won't mean much for an actual battle, but it shows the initial gap.

[Razushu]

Well, getting buffs at all sounds like more theory than a melee SMN. I can probably count on my fingers how many times I've had BRD buffs while meleeing on SMN. And that is covering a decade of playing.

Best comparison will be:

WAR + staff + no support
SMN + staff + predator claws + no support

That will show where SMN lies due to armor selection and stats. Everything else is pretty much scaling issues. G.Axe scaling far better than staff in damage for example, or buffs scaling WAR's base stats better than SMN's base stats.

Think of it like searching for an elemental spells base damage. You are looking for a SMNs base "WAR" value. It won't mean much for an actual battle, but it shows the initial gap.

That's a terrible comparison. Unless they're using the same staff, and you take garuda out of the equation(and they both use the same WS). It would also prove nothing. I do understand what you're saying, but finding the base difference is meaningless. You would see it nowhere else but this test.

Some people, if this test was ever done would deliberatily misinterpret the findings. Claiming that it was a true representation of SMN vs. WAR.

[Leonlionheart]

I went down to your level and compared WAR w/ STAFF with SMN w/ STAFF

If we're adding in Avatar's, no way in hell I'm going to do that.

Honestly, how is it even POSSIBLE TO THINK that there is competition between SMN Melee and WAR, when there's barely any competition between WAR and the next best runner up in terms of DD?

[Tagrineth]

I still say if you want to melee so badly on SMN that playing SMN feels like "watching paint dry", you need to have a chat with that white blob in your Mog House. I hear he can fix the problem for you.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

Everything else is pretty much scaling issues. G.Axe scaling far better than staff in damage for example

What weapons a job is skilled in is part of the job. SE knows perfectly well that staff, 1h sword, and clubs other than a few WHM only clubs suck. They're supposed to, because jobs that rely on those weapons aren't intended to melee for a lot of damage (in PLD's case it's a designed tradeoff for tanking, which used to work when PLD's mitigation was actually good and meaningful, and BLU is expected to make up the damage difference from a stronger weapon by casting blue magic). Real weapon-based DDs have access to stronger weapons with stronger WS.

I think daggers aren't supposed to suck, but kind of do, which is an ongoing problem for THF. But that's a different thread.

[Korpg]

Well, getting buffs at all sounds like more theory than a melee SMN. I can probably count on my fingers how many times I've had BRD buffs while meleeing on SMN. And that is covering a decade of playing.

Best comparison will be:

WAR + staff + no support
SMN + staff + predator claws + no support

That will show where SMN lies due to armor selection and stats. Everything else is pretty much scaling issues. G.Axe scaling far better than staff in damage for example, or buffs scaling WAR's base stats better than SMN's base stats.

Think of it like searching for an elemental spells base damage. You are looking for a SMNs base "WAR" value. It won't mean much for an actual battle, but it shows the initial gap.

You want a true comparison between WAR and SMN (melee)?

How about no gear, no support, no buffs, and no spells each?

Since you think that a WAR without its best weapon available is "fair," why not strip SMN of the same weapons?

[Alhanelem]

Mekki-shakki go!

:p

[Mightyg]

I see no reason why summoners couldn't get a charge system like cor and sch for pet abilities. That way they're balanced in that they can't just spam all of the pets abilities, but you still have the freedom to use multiple attacks as you please. they're should probably be a short recast on individual blood pact abilities, but nothing that keeps you too limited.

[Malamasala]

Charges only work for things you use occasionally. Like QD charges is good because you might need to do 2 sleeps at once. At other times you might be able to just let the charges refresh. On SMN though, it would mean you do 2 predator claws in 1 minute, but then wait 2 minutes until you do next, to get the charge back. In other words, it is only useful if you put SMNs in a zerg alliance and kill something in 30 seconds. If the fight lasts longer, like 2 minutes, charge system isn't very helpful.

However, for wards it could be a little help. You could throw up 2 defensive pacts at once, instead of waiting a 1 min cooldown between them. Wards last a while, rages are instant and then the effect is gone.

Personally I wouldn't mind a 3 timer system though.

Low level rage pacts, could have 3 charges. This is for applying debuffs, or making a weak level 1-2 skillchain to lower elemental resistance.

Ward pacts, again 3 charges. So you can add multiple buffs in a short time.

High level pacts, 70+. As today. No charges, because it would never make a difference.

[Malamasala]

You want a true comparison between WAR and SMN (melee)?

How about no gear, no support, no buffs, and no spells each?

Since you think that a WAR without its best weapon available is "fair," why not strip SMN of the same weapons?

I actually just want an INTERESTING comparison. But I'm quite flexible on this test. You can skip the avatar if you want to.

What you'd get with this test, is an example of how much melee traits and difference in armors make between the jobs. The idea to include the avatar were to see if having 0 traits but 1 avatar balanced it all out. I.e. a quick test to see if DA + attack bonus + better haste gear = 1 avatar pet.

And the reason G.Axe isn't part of any of these tests, is because I'm already pretty sure using the best weapon for WAR puts it as a better melee than SMN... else why would anyone play WAR over SMN? (Discuss this with Dallas though. He likes the discussions about WARs being half as good as SMNs)

[Korpg]

I actually just want an INTERESTING comparison. But I'm quite flexible on this test. You can skip the avatar if you want to.

What you'd get with this test, is an example of how much melee traits and difference in armors make between the jobs. The idea to include the avatar were to see if having 0 traits but 1 avatar balanced it all out. I.e. a quick test to see if DA + attack bonus + better haste gear = 1 avatar pet.

And the reason G.Axe isn't part of any of these tests, is because I'm already pretty sure using the best weapon for WAR puts it as a better melee than SMN... else why would anyone play WAR over SMN? (Discuss this with Dallas though. He likes the discussions about WARs being half as good as SMNs)

Ask yourself this: What is the purpose of this test?

And let us know what you come up with.

I see what you think this test will do, but in all honesty, what is the purpose of this test? Is it to determine how SMN can stack up to WAR given a solo situation? Party situation? Really, what is the purpose of the test, you think?

[Leonlionheart]

SMN gets its best weapon
WAR gets its 7th best weapon

Comparisons.

[Babekeke]

Except a DNC isn't required to cap haste =.=a. (I think!)

With Dual Wield being considered in the absolute Delay Reduction, Jobs like NIN, THF, and DNC (ones described) in reality only need about... I can't remember the exact number, But 25% gear haste/+Spell+ Double March should cover that to cap their Delay Reduction, no DNC Required. (This isn't even including Blitzers roll!)

I know Capped Haste from gear is 25% (26% is the Shown Number, You only get 25% in reality its just 26% is required in shown numbers because how its caculated... blah blah), 43% in magical.

That in itself is 68%, I think Dual Wield would cap the rest. This is of course excluding 2handed DD, minus DRK, who can cap JA haste with Desperate Blows.


I think DW would only cap it on NIN? I'm really confused as to how DW works in conjunction to haste, considering NIN's base trait is 35% (IIRC) and that with Gear Haste would be 60% already, making Haste get it to 75%. AF1 body is 5% DW, which would cap it.

However any NIN that's played with a BRD knows that March breaks your swing animations @_@

68% haste requires 37.5% DW (Edit: because they are multiplicative [you have to * them not + them])

69.3% (rounded) haste is required to cap at 35% DW (naked NIN)
71.5% (rounded) haste is required to cap at 30% DW (naked DNC)
73.333333333% haste is required to cap at 25% DW (naked /NIN)

The closer you get to cap, the less DW is affecting you. Magic cap + fully merited samba means there's no point in equipping any DW gear because you're already capped. regardless of 25% DW or 50% DW (not sure how much a NIN or DNC can actually achieve), however, drop the haste samba and a NIN only needs 2.5% DW to cap haste. DNC needs 7.5% and /NIN needs 12.5%.

The maths is in the Spoiler so as to not clutter the page up:

[Leonlionheart]

(and strangely, I thought LLH was one of them?!)

I was probably posting about 2hander haste numbers, I don't (or didn't) know anything about dual wield.

But that's different now, thanks for the info!

[Korpg]

Now, to have our resident SMN-melee trolls to discount the math again because it goes against them, again.

[Alhanelem]

I see no reason why summoners couldn't get a charge system like cor and sch for pet abilities. I would totally love for this to happen. First SCH, then COR, why not SMN?


Now, to have our resident SMN-melee trolls to discount the math again because it goes against them, again. You'd better not be lumping me in there. Dallas is the only such troll on these boards. I have the intelligence and wisdom to recognize everything you could ever imagine doing on the job- including looking hot for the ladies.:cool:

[Korpg]

You'd better not be lumping me in there. Dallas is the only such troll on these boards. I have the intelligence and wisdom to recognize everything you could ever imagine doing on the job- including looking hot for the ladies.:cool:

Don't worry, I was only lumping Dallas and Mala together. You are safe as long as you don't state that Emp staff SMNs are the best and outdamages everyone.

[Dallas]

Now, to have our resident SMN-melee trolls to discount the math again because it goes against them, again.

Last I checked, dual wield is not a relevant topic for SMN, but you absolutely love talking about every job but SMN. Learn some social skills, and maybe I'll start caring that Korpg wants to talk about some other job.

[Babekeke]

"This message is hidden because Dallas is on your ignore list."

I hope the rest of you are starting to get the idea and should all be seeing that message too instead of biting every time he trolls a thread!

[Leonlionheart]

"This message is hidden because Dallas is on your ignore list."

I hope the rest of you are starting to get the idea and should all be seeing that message too instead of biting every time he trolls a thread!

You're right. Ignoring a troll is their weakness.

[Tagrineth]

You're right. Ignoring a troll is their weakness.

!!

Your attack staggers the fiend!

[Leonlionheart]

!!

Your attack staggers the fiend!

lolol

but off topic off topic,

guys playing SMN is like watching paint dry

unless of course you're doing your job and erasing, curing, and controlling your avatar. Maybe even going up and using TP- if you already have it and don't need to obtain it by swinging.

[Malamasala]

lolol

but off topic off topic,

guys playing SMN is like watching paint dry

unless of course you're doing your job and erasing, curing, and controlling your avatar. Maybe even going up and using TP- if you already have it and don't need to obtain it by swinging.

Remind me again why it is:

If you want to play a real melee, change job.

but not

If you want to play a real healer, change job.


Obviously you are just randomly picking your facts to create your own truth, when in fact melee and /WHM are two sides of the same coin.

[Leonlionheart]

Remind me again why it is:

If you want to play a real melee, change job.

but not

If you want to play a real healer, change job.


Obviously you are just randomly picking your facts to create your own truth, when in fact melee and /WHM are two sides of the same coin.

I'm not saying play a healer

I'm saying play SMN and do something useful with it

Swinging a stick aint so useful, Paralyna is.

[Malamasala]

I see what you think this test will do, but in all honesty, what is the purpose of this test? Is it to determine how SMN can stack up to WAR given a solo situation? Party situation? Really, what is the purpose of the test, you think?

I'm pretty sure I said it is like a BLM nuking level 1 mobs to find base damage on nukes. It is not for checking if a BLM in a party will own level 1 bunnies, but out of curiosity.

In this SMN test, it will show how much of a difference traits and armor selection does. This is a bit more unknown than if there is a difference between G.Axe damage and Staff damage, which for some reason you people want to compare. I mean... what do you expect to find? Staff out-DDing G.Axe? You are only making a mock test to troll.

You could honestly do the same with WAR and DRK if you want to. Equip both with staffs, check how different they are in damage output from traits/armor/spells. That would tell you how close DRK is to WAR, ignoring multi hit crit WSes (which DRKs cry for).

tl;dr it compares melee trait importance, and some armor importance. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Malamasala]

I'm not saying play a healer

I'm saying play SMN and do something useful with it

Swinging a stick aint so useful, Paralyna is.

It is if the monster has no paralyze.

Might also add that you can swing a stick AND paralyna without any problem at all.

[Leonlionheart]

If it doesn't cause any problems, TP feed, stress on WHM.

Undoubtedly though, on any NM worth it's mettle, SMN melee is more hurtful to the party than beneficial.

The situations where SMN can melee are few and far in between.

[Korpg]

Remind me again why it is:

If you want to play a real melee, change job.

but not

If you want to play a real healer, change job.


Obviously you are just randomly picking your facts to create your own truth, when in fact melee and /WHM are two sides of the same coin.

But it is like that. SMN is neither a melee job nor a healer. The best thing a SMN can do is solo. Second best? Deliver TP free damage, you don't even have to release the avatar to do that! Curing Status effects is probably the 4th or 5th best thing, curing HP is just below that, melee is dead bottom.

I'm not saying that you can't do more than one thing at a time. In fact, it is very helpful to do TP free damage AND cure status effects AND help cure HP, much more than swinging a staff.

[Razushu]

It is if the monster has no paralyze.

Might also add that you can swing a stick AND paralyna without any problem at all.

Being paralyzed while trying to cast paralyna is a problem though.

[Alhanelem]

Swinging a stick aint so useful, Paralyna is. Swinging a stick doesn't prevent you from casting Paralyna.

I'm perfectly fine with people not liking the idea of melee, but the above isn't a valid reason. Having your weapon drawn does not in any way stop you from casting spells. Paladins do this all the time. Some people claim it's more difficult, but I don't find it more difficult at all.


Being paralyzed while trying to cast paralyna is a problem though. Yes, but if you try to remove paralyna from yourself, that means the WHM or whoever else has it can focus on other people and not put any attention on you. This is why /WHM has good utility for the job even if you're not curing much of anything.

[Korpg]

Swinging a stick doesn't prevent you from casting Paralyna.


It does when you go /SAM so you can swing the stick faster and more accurate.

[Alhanelem]

My SAM isn't even high enough to sub, so that's not a problem. :p

[Malamasala]

I'm not saying that you can't do more than one thing at a time. In fact, it is very helpful to do TP free damage AND cure status effects AND help cure HP, much more than swinging a staff.

I could compare it to DNC. While dealing damage + healing is useful, it isn't always I need to do both. Same with SMN. Sometimes I do not need to cure status effects or cure... should I only stand there and do TP free damage and watch paint dry? No, I'll go poke it with a stick so I have something fun to do.

Do I always melee? No, sometimes I go post on these forums instead between pacts. Why heal if it isn't needed? Better to do something else.

[Korpg]

My SAM isn't even high enough to sub, so that's not a problem. :p

No actual melee job leveled?

[Alhanelem]

PUP and DNC were my only "melee jobs" until recently I finished DRK. I have WAR and MNK in the 50s,

[Korpg]

PUP and DNC were my only "melee jobs" until recently I finished DRK. I have WAR and MNK in the 50s,

Get SAM in your life, and you will wonder what in the heck you were missing from your life.

[Alhanelem]

Get SAM in your life, and you will wonder what in the heck you were missing from your life.
SAM isn't a good sub for PUP and is only good for DNC because of meditate essentially being refresh for the job.

[Korpg]

PUP and DNC were my only "melee jobs" until recently I finished DRK. I have WAR and MNK in the 50s,

That is why you would like /SAM....

[Dallas]

We've reduced the world of SMN to paralyna spam today? If the WHM had time to spam a Haste rotation, surely they've been freed up by Hastega to cast Paralyna.

And a quick reminder: when the SMN is proccing red (not the useless non-meleeing SMN, of course), the SMN is subbing /WHM. That means better heals than /RDM, -na spells, and Reraise. Still accurate, and still more MP than /RDM.

[Alhanelem]

Oh, go stick your manhood in the forge. Come on, don't you realize almost everyone has blacklisted you by now?

[Korpg]

We've reduced the world of SMN to paralyna spam today? If the WHM had time to spam a Haste rotation, surely they've been freed up by Hastega to cast Paralyna.

And a quick reminder: when the SMN is proccing red (not the useless non-meleeing SMN, of course), the SMN is subbing /WHM. That means better heals than /RDM, -na spells, and Reraise. Still accurate, and still more MP than /RDM.

ITT: SMN has Red/Blue procs that a WAR doesn't

[Razushu]

ITT: SMN has Red/Blue procs that a WAR doesn't

Yeah didn't you know they took WAR off the staff procs beacuse they can't keep up with Dallas' hyper charged imaginary melee SMN.

[Karbuncle]

To play the devil's advocate here.

Theoretically if it was say, Light for red, You could have the WAR doing Shinning Blade, and Seraph Strike, while the SMN did Sunburst.

Or if it was Staff for BLU, theres 5 procs, You could have the WAR take 3, and the SMN take 2, and speed up the process.

But i see the point being made.

[Leonlionheart]

To play the devil's advocate here.

Theoretically if it was say, Light for red, You could have the WAR doing Shinning Blade, and Seraph Strike, while the SMN did Sunburst.

Or if it was Staff for BLU, theres 5 procs, You could have the WAR take 3, and the SMN take 2, and speed up the process.

But i see the point being made.

2 people to do the job of 1

is what abyssea is all about

[Karbuncle]

2 people to do the job of 1

is what abyssea is all about

I'm only assuming you have both in the party already :X

[Korpg]

I'm only assuming you have both in the party already :X

Well, if the WAR is there just to proc, and the SMN is there to tank, then yeah, that would make sense.

[Karbuncle]

SMN tanks?! More likely than you think :O! SMN/MNK GO!

lol but no... not really.

[Korpg]

SMN tanks?! More likely than you think :O! SMN/MNK GO!

lol but no... not really.

SMN/PLD or GTFO

[Yarly]

level a new job, problem solved.

[Tagrineth]

Remind me again why it is:

If you want to play a real melee, change job.

but not

If you want to play a real healer, change job.


Obviously you are just randomly picking your facts to create your own truth, when in fact melee and /WHM are two sides of the same coin.

I'll tell you exactly why this is the case and yes, admittedly it's a fault of FFXI's game design.

From /WHM you get Cure I through Cure IV. That's the same amount of healing prowess that any non-WHM Main gets. You also get more than enough Healing skill from the sub, and base MND, to hit the soft cap on all four of those cures. So with a /WHM sub on any job that has native MP, you're basically a mini RDM/SCH/PLD, and if you wear any compatible +MP or +Cure potency or +MND gear, your cures can stack up pretty well. Your cures will never "miss", either.

Melee wise, though, you are very much bound by your main job's prowess. You cannot feasibly, say, go WHM/MNK, equip Trainee Scissors, and expect to hit anything let alone deal relevant damage, since your combat skill is so incredibly significant to your ability to wield and swing the weapon. Even among main jobs, you don't see competent Warriors trying to main Dagger or Polearm instead of axes because the skill deficit just plain hurts too much (that and the severely nerfed weapon selection of course).

Even more relevant example: you never see Dragoons maining Staff. Dragoons are infinitely more capable of wielding a staff well than a Summoner - they get Accuracy Bonus job traits, and their combat skill at 90 is only 10 points below Summoner's. It's just not worth the severe cut to your attack and accuracy compared to a primary weapon.

Puppetmasters are permanently hobbled by their weak h2h skill cap, and it's 6 points higher than SMN's final Staff cap. Even when PUP's skill cap was raised from ~C to B+ it was still considered a bit of a slap in the face, since B+ is still a whopping 13 points behind an A- weapon - that's 13 attack and ~12 accuracy lost.

And that's all before even considering the actual Melee jobs' exclusive gear (SMN maxes out at 23 haste from gear, EVERY dedicated melee can hit 26 comfortably alongside other relevant stats) and job abilities/traits which can't be subbed.


Oh, and if you want to play a real healer, play WHM. Cure V&VI really are THAT important. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Korpg]

Oh, and if you want to play a real healer, play WHM. Cure V&VI really are THAT important. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Quoted for the absolute truth. I love hitting my 2600 Cure VIs. On Darksday too. Outside Abyssea.

[AyinDygra]

Another thought I had, in addition to SE's vision example:

Job Ability: Urgent Plea
(Stores 1 charge per minute, up to 5)
Allows the Summoner to activate any Bloodpact:Ward, even if another avatar is currently active.
* Doubles the MP cost of the ward.
* The avatar will still appear graphically, temporarily, but will not have a real Pet-style presence in the battle.

There are probably a few technical hurdles to overcome with this idea due to the avatar not being physically present, such as targeting and range of the ward (I'd make the target be the center of the range) but it allows the Wards to be used more freely, while keeping the Rages separate, perhaps using the proposed ability in SE's vision statement to lower rage timers in exchange for higher costs.

Clearly the idea needs refining, but it has potential.

[Duelle]

Job Ability: Urgent Plea
(Stores 1 charge per minute, up to 5)
Allows the Summoner to activate any Bloodpact:Ward, even if another avatar is currently active.
* Doubles the MP cost of the ward.
* The avatar will still appear graphically, temporarily, but will not have a real Pet-style presence in the battle.

There are probably a few technical hurdles to overcome with this idea due to the avatar not being physically present, such as targeting and range of the ward (I'd make the target be the center of the range) but it allows the Wards to be used more freely, while keeping the Rages separate, perhaps using the proposed ability in SE's vision statement to lower rage timers in exchange for higher costs.

Clearly the idea needs refining, but it has potential.I like where that's going. It basically mimics how summons act in other FFs, adds to what SMN can do, and I can think of no negatives from it.

[Dallas]

And that's all before even considering the actual Melee jobs' exclusive gear (SMN maxes out at 23 haste from gear, EVERY dedicated melee can hit 26 comfortably alongside other relevant stats) and job abilities/traits which can't be subbed.


SMN gets its CHOICE of: 15% Haste, 30-50 Acc, 30 Att, 22 MAB (Cata), 24% DA, ??% Crit Rate

No subjob, not counting any gear. I consider all of these to be relevant melee stats.

[Razushu]

SMN gets its CHOICE of: 15% Haste, 30-50 Acc, 30 Att, 22 MAB (Cata), 24% DA, ??% Crit Rate

No subjob, not counting any gear. I consider all of these to be relevant melee stats.


Yet even with all those at a SMN's disposal(forgetting the fact they're party buffs), you can only manage a fraction of a DD's damage.

[Dallas]

Yet even with all those at a SMN's disposal(forgetting the fact they're party buffs), you can only manage a fraction of a DD's damage.

LOL. I know you know of the buffs Raz. Everyone told you to level BRD when you told them that cycling them is a good use of a party slot. Do you honestly believe, based on Tag's post, that he has no knowledge of SMN's buffs? Or, do you agree with me, that he is purposely ignoring them like so many people seem to do?

Yes, they are party buffs, meaning they are more powerful than just job traits. Chances that anti-melee will admit that? I'm guessing zero.

Voidwatch released a lot of armor with Spheres, party buffs that DON'T buff the wearer. Everything that SMN does works better than that.

[Leonlionheart]

LOL. I know you know of the buffs Raz. Everyone told you to level BRD when you told them that cycling them is a good use of a party slot. Do you honestly believe, based on Tag's post, that he has no knowledge of SMN's buffs? Or, do you agree with me, that he is purposely ignoring them like so many people seem to do?

Yes, they are party buffs, meaning they are more powerful than just job traits. Chances that anti-melee will admit that? I'm guessing zero.

Voidwatch released a lot of armor with Spheres, party buffs that DON'T buff the wearer. Everything that SMN does works better than that.

I thought you only played with BSTs?

[Tagrineth]

>implying that actual DDs won't get those buffs anyway with or without an SMN giving them

[Dallas]

I thought you only played with BSTs?

And Korpg thinks I claim to outdamage Ukon WAR.
And Raz thinks I die against everything I fight.
And GG thinks every WAR has been surgically attached to a DNC, WHM, and BRD in some sort of human centipede.

People think stupid things.

[Leonlionheart]

And Korpg thinks I claim to outdamage Ukon WAR.
And Raz thinks I die against everything I fight.
And GG thinks every WAR has been surgically attached to a DNC, WHM, and BRD in some sort of human centipede.

People think stupid things.

Stop comparing yourself to real DDs, at all, and this issue won't arise.
IDK how much you die, but if you play with BSTs I doubt you would die often, since it would destroy the purpose of pet burning if you were meleeing lolol.
My WAR did have a surgically attached DNC, WHM, and BRD for about 2 months.

[Dallas]

Stop comparing yourself to real DDs, at all, and this issue won't arise.

That was GG, not me. It's all a big fat lie told by Korpg. The WAR butthurt is real.

[Alhanelem]

Just blacklist dallas and all your SMN thread troubles will go away.

[Malamasala]

You have got to include me, Korpg, Raz and Leon to remove the discussions completely though.

[Malamasala]

I like where that's going. It basically mimics how summons act in other FFs, adds to what SMN can do, and I can think of no negatives from it.

x2 seems a bit too high to me. It means for example that tossing out Earthen Armor costs like 200+ MP, while a BRD does it for free. It is a bit too large difference in my opinion. I'd find it more fair if we tweaked the cost the opposite way. Using this Ability would make a Ward cost 100% its cost (same as it costs now) and using it without the ability would give us half cost wards (50% of currrent cost).

And yea, this is according to my godmode plans. Since a SMN paying half price on pacts, will be able to out-melee WARs, out-tank PLDs, out-buff BRDs, out-run THFs, and even fly.

[Razushu]

You have got to include me, Korpg, Raz and Leon to remove the discussions completely though.

Don't Blist me.:(

But at least if Dallas was gone they would only be useful discussion, not wild trolling.

[AyinDygra]

I agree, in retrospect, that x2 is too much. (it's all part of the refinement thing I said), and I've read plenty of threads comparing SMN buffs to others, and how they're not balanced cost-wise with other mages, which I agree with. It's like Summoner pays a ton more MP for everything because they have MP to spend. I never play Summoner, but it doesn't look fair to me.

[Korpg]

And Korpg thinks I claim to outdamage Ukon WAR.


Didn't you claim that your staff is only 7.5% DoT damage less than an Ukon? Without avatar damage included, basically meaning that you outdamage an Ukon? Why, yes you did (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/9679-Do-Relic-Mythic-and-Empyrean-staves-lack-utility?p=121254&viewfull=1#post121254)

[Alhanelem]

and how they're not balanced cost-wise with other mages, which I agree with Cost doesn't have much to do with it. Hastega is an MP saver over casting haste on 6 people. The problem is casting different buffs from different avatars is a huge pain.

[Malamasala]

Cost doesn't have much to do with it. Hastega is an MP saver over casting haste on 6 people. The problem is casting different buffs from different avatars is a huge pain.

Speaking of Hastega, it is silly that it had to be hastega to begin with. Calling it something else would have allowed it to stack, and made SMN one of the most popular support jobs 2003. Instead we aren't even considered support jobs at 2011.

[Alhanelem]

Calling it something else would have allowed it to stacklots of things with different names give the same effect. Refresh, every drink under the sun, FoV buff all want a word with you.

[Babekeke]

Just blacklist dallas and all your SMN thread troubles will go away.

Not quite true unless everyone does it. I blisted him about 5 pages ago, but every time he posts, the post under it quotes him >.>

The same people that agreed with me about ignoring him to stop feeding the troll are still quoting and arguing with him. /sigh

[Malacite]

Speaking of hastega, why is that still our only unique buff?

I mean honestly, there's no real good reason to bar Accession + Haste at this point. If SMN is the only reason SE can come up with, then that just shows how much trouble SMN is really in.


Separate timers would be great, but there's a lot of potential for abuse there, especially in abyssea where MP isn't an issue.


I'd love to see avatar's stats scale up with summoning skill instead of just job level for one thing. How about fixing it so avatars don't lose TP when not actively engaged with an enemy? The list just goes on really...

[Elidani]

Do you really think they're just making stuff up with no intention of actually doing it? Did you know that many of these abilities/spells already have animations in the DAT files as of the most recent update?

This is a result of funny story telling and the telephone game. They NEVER said this. They said we were getting 2 new avatars, and that they wanted us to be able to keep our summons out more. Two seperate things, and both of them were achieved. They said NOTHING about the new avatars specifically being the ones we'd summon longer.

They used the word "example" to say that the exact changes are not set in stone, e.g. they could change. I won't blame you for being skeptical, as SMN tends to get the short end of the stick, but these changes are backed up by new data in the data files.

Finally, to reinforce this further, they would not name SPECIFIC avatars if they were not going to implement them.

{*Multiple example adjustments follow each job vision. These are provided merely to illustrate the general direction we intend to take each job—actual adjustments implemented may differ from what is written.}

This was also in that announcement in bright red writing. Not saying it won't happen, just pointing out that even SE is saying it isn't written in stone. I hope that they do implement the changes they *envisioned,* not only as a SMN, but as every other job I play.

[Elidani]

The point in telling certain jobs not to melee is so that enemies are not fed godly amounts of tp with least amounts of damage. i.e. If your melee smn/rdm/whm/blm...etc...you are hitting for very little damage per staff swing. You aren't doing much damage at all. At the same time though, you are feeding TP to the mob which allows it to use those horrible JAs available to mobs called *my party just wiped.* Hence the reason most people get bent out of shape over mages meleeing.

On a personal note, I don't really care one way or the other. When I am in a party or alliance I try to play my job as the situation calls for whether I am a mage or not. It simply all depends on what is most beneficial to my team, because to me the only reason to be on a team in the first place is to help, not hinder.

[Leonlionheart]

Elidani knows whats up.

Mages shouldn't melee in team play.

[Alhanelem]

This was also in that announcement in bright red writing. Not saying it won't happen, just pointing out that even SE is saying it isn't written in stone. I hope that they do implement the changes they *envisioned,* not only as a SMN, but as every other job I play.
mayThe key word here is "may." They already have their ideas at this point, it's game balance or design/implementation problems that could change things, or input from the community. No, it's not set in stone, but clearly they have a plan laid out. But by all means, continue to play the semantics game.


The point in telling certain jobs not to melee is so that enemies are not fed godly amounts of tp with least amounts of damage. i.e. If your melee smn/rdm/whm/blm...etc...you are hitting for very little damage per staff swing. You aren't doing much damage at all. At the same time though, you are feeding TP to the mob which allows it to use those horrible JAs available to mobs called *my party just wiped.* That's why you learn which mobs have "My party just wiped" and which ones don't and adjust your behavior accordingly. The best players are the ones who are able to adapt themeselves accordingly to changing circumstances. Things aren't as black and white as you portray them to be.

[Malamasala]

Elidani knows whats up.

Mages shouldn't melee in team play.

And when you've made the perfect team, you'll notice healing on SMN is not needed. And we are right back on my initial post, watching paint dry as we do nothing. Melee isn't desired, Healing is pointless.

I agree with you when you got a crappy team though. Then you do not want mages to melee.

[Elidani]

I never said it was black and white. I was simply stating that is the way most people play the game. As for meleeing on smn during a party, I have it pretty easy. The linkshell I am with is fairly laid back and we do w/e during Aby exp parties. During serious events we do what we need to to help the team as a whole. We don't usually have smn out unless we mean to use the avatars. I guess it helps when many of the members also play smn and whm. They understand the difference between the two. Personally I mostly soloed my smn to 66, because I refused to be a subpar whm. My point in stating the info about tp is because that is how it was explained to me a few years back when I asked the same question about why my mage isn't allowed to melee even though I can weild a weapon. I'm quite happy in the frontlines as my dancer or on the backline as my whm. SMN I simply prefer playing that as a soloist job or strictly during stress-free ls parties. It makes the game more fun if I am not stressed about being told how to play my job.

[Neonii]

I'll tell you exactly why this is the case and yes, admittedly it's a fault of FFXI's game design.

From /WHM you get Cure I through Cure IV. That's the same amount of healing prowess that any non-WHM Main gets. You also get more than enough Healing skill from the sub, and base MND, to hit the soft cap on all four of those cures. So with a /WHM sub on any job that has native MP, you're basically a mini RDM/SCH/PLD, and if you wear any compatible +MP or +Cure potency or +MND gear, your cures can stack up pretty well. Your cures will never "miss", either.

Melee wise, though, you are very much bound by your main job's prowess. You cannot feasibly, say, go WHM/MNK, equip Trainee Scissors, and expect to hit anything let alone deal relevant damage, since your combat skill is so incredibly significant to your ability to wield and swing the weapon. Even among main jobs, you don't see competent Warriors trying to main Dagger or Polearm instead of axes because the skill deficit just plain hurts too much (that and the severely nerfed weapon selection of course).

Even more relevant example: you never see Dragoons maining Staff. Dragoons are infinitely more capable of wielding a staff well than a Summoner - they get Accuracy Bonus job traits, and their combat skill at 90 is only 10 points below Summoner's. It's just not worth the severe cut to your attack and accuracy compared to a primary weapon.

Puppetmasters are permanently hobbled by their weak h2h skill cap, and it's 6 points higher than SMN's final Staff cap. Even when PUP's skill cap was raised from ~C to B+ it was still considered a bit of a slap in the face, since B+ is still a whopping 13 points behind an A- weapon - that's 13 attack and ~12 accuracy lost.

And that's all before even considering the actual Melee jobs' exclusive gear (SMN maxes out at 23 haste from gear, EVERY dedicated melee can hit 26 comfortably alongside other relevant stats) and job abilities/traits which can't be subbed.


Oh, and if you want to play a real healer, play WHM. Cure V&VI really are THAT important. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Why bother even having a smn or any variety of jobs for that matter? Just level whm and call it a day.

[Sasaraixx]

I must be in the minority on this, but I do not find SMN boring and I've been playing this game for a long time. I can understand the OP's point about "watching paint dry" between BP's but it *appears* that our timer limitation is going to be addressed in the near future. If we can get the timer down to 30 seconds, without it costing a ridiculous amount of extra MP, then I think the issue will be fairly well addressed. (By the issue, I mean being bored in between BP's. There are other issues that obviously need to be addressed.) Splitting the Blood Pacts into 3 or 4 categories would help even more so. I don't think that each BP should have its own timer or that each avatar should have separate timers. Splitting into damage - enfeebling - enhancing/healing would be nice. You could possibly break up the enhancing/healing into separate categories or split damage into physical and magical. Either would be a nice boost.

Everyone has their own idea of how SMN should play. Personally, I don't want to melee on my SMN. I don't want to nuke on my SMN. I have BLM, SCH and RDM for that. I'm perfectly fine with providing support healing from /WHM, /RDM or /SCH and if more healing is required I'll switch to a healing class. I play SMN to *summon* That is all I'm concerned with when I put on that pointy horn. I'm cautiously optimistic that the coming updates will allow me to focus on that.

Now there are plenty of other issues that need to be addressed. Avatar DOT, BP delay (buff hopefully incoming), avatar's favor, Ward potency, and I'm sure I've forgotten others. These are the areas I'd like to see SE focus on.

I also don't want to have to sub WAR to give my avatars double attack. They should have it naturally. I shouldn't have to sub BLM to improve nuking damage. They should already be powerful. Our subjob should be used to provide utility to the party and ourselves (MP recovery, survivability, etc). SE decided not to give us native spells and magic skills and that may have been a poor design decision. I don't see it changing after almost 10 years and I'm fine with that.

And perhaps it's because FFX was my first Final Fantasy game but I liked that the Aeons were all unique, not just in their elements/attacks but also their stats. (I know. I'm a late comer to the series!!) I can definitely see the advantage of all the avatars being roughly the same as it allows you more flexibility in which avatar you use. If Shiva was clearly the best nuking avatar, then there would be less reasons to use Garuda or Titan for that purpose. Even acknowledging that, I still wouldn't mind a little variation. Fenrir, Carbuncle and Diabolos have some nice unique quirks. I'd like the other avatars to as well. This could be done by giving them their respective avatar's favors and removing the penalties or just giving Shiva extra tiers of the MAB trait or Garuda a higher evasion rating. Again, that is just a personal wish of mine :)

[Korpg]

And when you've made the perfect team, you'll notice healing on SMN is not needed. And we are right back on my initial post, watching paint dry as we do nothing. Melee isn't desired, Healing is pointless.

You forget the whole reason why the SMN is there. They are there for 2 things: Deal TP-less damage and to hold a pop set.

Does dealing TP-less damage worthless? Heck no. SMN is the only job that can do it. And holding a pop set is more important than wiping a party/alliance because you feel like whacking a mob. But you don't have to stand back and do damage from afar on most stuff. Go ahead and melee on Aquarius. Just don't melee on Isgebind (seen too many people wipe on that Dragon because they had too many melees on it. That dragon is not zergable yet).

I agree with you when you got a crappy team though. Then you do not want mages to melee.[/QUOTE]

[Tagrineth]

Why bother even having a smn or any variety of jobs for that matter? Just level whm and call it a day.

I dunno. Blame Abyssea with its 2-3k HP totals and NMs that can thwack players for 1-3k damage on a whim. Keep up with that damage using only Cure IV and don't die in the process from all the enmity!

[Dallas]

Cure IV on one of 2 mage combinations that has no native Fast Cast: SMN/WHM, BLM/WHM. Worst cure whore ever.

[Razushu]

Cure IV on one of 2 mage combinations that has no native Fast Cast: SMN/WHM, BLM/WHM. Worst cure whore ever.

I know it's almost as bad as meleeing on the weakest class in the ga.....

[Dallas]

Meleeing as RDM, BLM, or SCH? No, much more pathetic than that. 23% haste (mage) versus 26% haste (melee) is much closer than Cure 4 is to Cure 6.

[Razushu]

Meleeing as RDM, BLM, or SCH? No, much more pathetic than that. 23% haste (mage) versus 26% haste (melee) is much closer than Cure 4 is to Cure 6.

I was talking about SMN, it's ok it's forgivable for you to forget it(seeing as you don't have it leveled). Outside Abyssea Cure IV does fine. There's lots more factors that go into making an effective melee than haste, if you ever level a job you'll learn this. Don't worry we were all new once.

[Leonlionheart]

Meleeing as RDM, BLM, or SCH? No, much more pathetic than that. 23% haste (mage) versus 26% haste (melee) is much closer than Cure 4 is to Cure 6.

RDM can cap haste, which is a big deal with marches. Although I agree, the difference between Cure IV and VI is just... well Cure VI is 300% better.

[Babekeke]

I dunno. Blame Abyssea with its 2-3k HP totals and NMs that can thwack players for 1-3k damage on a whim. Keep up with that damage using only Cure IV and don't die in the process from all the enmity!

However, SMN CAN hit the 50% cure potency cap, and if you're there INSTEAD of a WHM (which is the only time you'll be spamming cure 4s enough for enmity to be a problem), you can pop Allure atma for -enmity and +MND too. So now you're popping a 6-700hp cure4, with much less enmity from doing so, whilst supplementing this with Healing Ruby 2 or whispering wind.

I've duo'd several Abby NMs as THF with a SMN friend for support/occasional hate steals so I can pop sneak attack, or they run in so I can trick attack (for TH+ only). They never took hate and the avatar did probably as much damage as me from BP alone (it didn't melee because we didn't want to feed tp - so obviously neither did the smn).
For the record, he has lvl 90 whm too, but even as a Taru THF, I got by just fine with cure 4s. BPs sped the fight up a load though :)
I'm almost certain that at no point could he have turned around and said "This is like watching paint dry".

If you're there to help proc staff/club as well, and healing is already covered, sub war. You have the choice of war, whm, pld, mnk. War offers aggressor to help our sucky acc; berserk to add a little damage if you want to speed things up; defender if it's taking a while to proc and you want to deal as little damage as possible; double attack to get tp faster.

Yes SAM is a better sub for melee, but you lose the proc ws. WHM is better if extra healing is required. SCH or RDM are better if mp might be an issue, but again you lose procs.

[Dallas]

RDM can cap haste, which is a big deal with marches. Although I agree, the difference between Cure IV and VI is just... well Cure VI is 300% better.

RDM just starts so far behind... It's really embarassing. They are better than BLM or SCH for melee, but I can't even construct a scenario where RDM spells match an avatar's damage.

[Razushu]

RDM just starts so far behind... It's really embarassing. They are better than BLM or SCH for melee, but I can't even construct a scenario where RDM spells match an avatar's damage.

Why would you try match RDM spells and Avatar damage, when you're talking about melee?

[Korpg]

Meleeing as RDM, BLM, or SCH? No, much more pathetic than that. 23% haste (mage) versus 26% haste (melee) is much closer than Cure 4 is to Cure 6.

Because with 23% haste, 9 hit staff, 0 WS damage, Accuracy rate of 75% and no attack help at all are pretty close to a 26%, 5 hit, 11k WS on average, Accuracy rate of 95% and 999+ attack melees? And before you say "thats impossible without help" I'm talking about WAR here, which is very easy to do without any help at all. With help, can hit 80% haste, everything else stays the same.

[Leonlionheart]

It's not the RDM spells that pull it ahead, RDM would have to completely rely on Chant Du Cygne to pull head. Having self haste helps, and RDM get's quite a bit of attack gear pre-76 that would help. Also, RDM doesn't need MM to keep MP flowing so 3/3 DD atma's.

[Korpg]

You know, I have never been in a party with a CDC wielder. How much damage does CDC do?

[Malamasala]

You know, I have never been in a party with a CDC wielder. How much damage does CDC do?

I got damage filtered, but I'm usually annoyed at how fast the mobs I want to TP on die from CDC. I'd assume 3k at least?

[Malamasala]

I know it's almost as bad as meleeing on the weakest class in the ga.....

Thus the thread. "Watch paint dry". Because your alternatives is to be the worst healer or worst melee. And while I'd ask SE for a boost to any of these, I'm too afraid I'd get 100% cure potency boost and have to regret it.

[Korpg]

Thus the thread. "Watch paint dry". Because your alternatives is to be the worst healer or worst melee. And while I'd ask SE for a boost to any of these, I'm too afraid I'd get 100% cure potency boost and have to regret it.

How about, instead of focusing on what Summoner can not do, why not focus on what Summoner can do?

Will it be a great melee? No. Was it intended to be a great melee? No.
Will it be a great healer? No. Was it intended to be a great healer? No.

It is a great solo job. It also provides a lot of damage for free TP feed. Why not focus on being an actual summoner instead of a melee mage or gimp healer?

If you really want to be a melee, level WAR/DRK/DRG/MNK/SAM.

If you really want to be a healer, level WHM/SCH/RDM.

[Razushu]

Thus the thread. "Watch paint dry". Because your alternatives is to be the worst healer or worst melee. And while I'd ask SE for a boost to any of these, I'm too afraid I'd get 100% cure potency boost and have to regret it.

But why ask SE to boost either of these? We're a pet mage, for the love of god ask them to buff our pets lol