Dragoon Manifesto thoughts

[OMEGA_HACK]

Level55: Wyvern learns Elemental Breath II (damage without any bonus: 300ish)
Level55: Wyvern learns Dragon Scales Trait (-10% Damage(any) reduction)
Level65: Wyvern learns Healing Breath IV (no bonus cure amount: 300-350)
Level65: Wyvern learns Dragon Scales II Trait (-20% Damage(any) reduction)
Level80: Wyvern learns Elemental Breath III (damage without any bonus: 400ish)
Level80: Wyvern learns Adaptability Trait (Wyvern gains 25% of bonus from equipped gear effects)
Level85: Wyvern learns Dragon Scales III Trait (-30% Damage(any) reduction)
Level95: Wyvern learns Healing Breath V (no bonus cure amount: 400-450)
Level95: Wyvern learns Dragon Scales IV Trait (-40% Damage(any) reduction)
Level99: Wyvern learns Elemental Breath IV (damage without any bonus: 500ish)
Level99: Wyvern learns Adaptability II Trait (Wyvern gains 35% of bonus from equipped gear effects)


Level25: Dragoon learns Cleansing Breath* (removes 1 status ailment from target; Recast 2min)
Level45: Dragoon learns Cleansing Breath* (removes 2 status ailments from target; Recast 2min)
Level55: Dragoon learns Dragon's Vision *** Job Ability
Level65: Dragoon learns Dragon's Rage**** Job Ability
Level70: Dragoon learns Dragon's Stamina***** Job Ability
Level95: Dragoon learns Cleansing Breath* (removes 3 status ailments from target; Recast 2min)
Level95: Dragoon learns Comet Jump****** Job Ability
Level99: Dragoon learns Dragon Heart** Trait

*Its the same ability it just gets stronger, also with this they should get rid of the Wyvern learning only a handful of Removal Breaths at staggered levels; or as it gets stronger then allow more of a variety of ailments to be removed
**If Dragoon is to die with a Wyvern out, it will sacrifice the wyvern in order to bestow a special RR wherein the Dragoon will be revived with 50% of his HP and no weakness (this is inspiration from the FFT games)
***Recast 3min, stance ability; grants the Dragoon a "Sphere Effect" of Evasion+20, Crit Def bonus+15 and Increases chance to parry/block/guard
****Recast 3min, stance ability; grants the Dragoon a "Sphere Effect" of Attack+20 Crit Hit Rate+15 and Accuracy+10
*****Recast 3min, stance ability; grants the Dragoon a "Sphere Effect" of Refresh(1/tic), Matt Bonus+15, Cure Potency+10%
******AoE jump that gives TP based on the number of targets hit (1hit = normal TP return; each additional target = +5TP) range 5' from target

(Sphere effects work just like from the new gear sets; could have a different range though)

It's a long post with A LOT of content I know; but honestly it's like the stopped leveling the Wyvern @50, so that's why they'd be getting so much; it also has to do with the "making Wyvern more of an aspect and not being able to be killed in 3 seconds in a critical/boss fight" Some of the ideas might seem too over powered (but before you comment don't just say "overpowered" look at what the other melee jobs can do and at what speeds, then evaluate).

[Coldbrand]

Nope we're stuck with our breaths doing +50 damage while WAR will permanently have some flat damage+% from always doing the mob's damage type weakness. Then not using the old jumps because they're pathetic compared to the new, and then people complaining when we can't save them on time since we don't not use our jumps to save for saving them. The wyvern saving thing will probably be an activated ability to detract from our damage with it's JA that interrupts our high delay weapon from attacking.

We don't need stuff like Lancet or more damage oriented traits or JAs, what are you, crazy?

Please, please don't let them give Dragoons wyverns in FFXIV.

[Dauntless]

I like their vision for DRG, as I do want to see DRG more jump oriented but I don't like their ideas with jump and high jump working with Enmity unless they removed spirit/soul jump sharing timers with jump/high jump.

I do like that they're thinking of giving Wyverns more survivability.

[Coldbrand]

Oh I agree that jump should be the main focus of Dragoon by far, I wish we had classic jump really with full invincibility (staying up in the air for a second or two, with damage to compensate for the lack of auto-attacking) and 100% accuracy, the latter of which Ryunohige achieves, but really, if they put this on the old jumps that's just incredibly stupid and agitating to Dragoons. I'm plenty happy helping other people do well with (post buff) circle, dragon breaker, angon, and healing breath. I didn't sign up for a support class, I signed up to play Dragoon.

Really though, my main concern for Dragoon is that whatever we're getting keeps us competitive with how ridiculous SAM and WAR will be at the end of all this, and that the WS rebalancing fixes Camlann's Torment so that Rhongomiant users prefer it to Drakesbane (likewise for Geirskogul and Gungnir) but no matter how much I post on that topic it always gets buried by some ridiculous relics vs empyreans war.

I'd also like better itemization options so I don't have to look completely ridiculous for my 5 hit haste cap build. (Zelus Tiara, Emp body/legs/feet, dusk hands) Seriously, if you community reps do read this stuff, do me a favor and look up how attrocious that is. Please add haste/stp augments (or better yet trials to the af/relic) to either relic/af+1, askar, homam or aurum sets.

That and Lancet, I mean really, come on already, it's time.

Of course, we'll probably just get like weak para/blind/slow breath etc. that gets overwritten by RDMs, minor elemental resistance debuff so we can make BLMs look even better, and some JA with a 5 minute recast that'll save the wyverns from one AoE if the notes are to go by. We won't need to remove hate from other people if we're not using spirit/soul jump since there's no way in Hell we'd be taking hate off SAM/WAR at this rate.

[Dauntless]

Healing Breath 4

Remove Silence breath

No more shared timers on Soul/Spirit and jump/high jumps

Jump based weaponskills

More Wyvern survivability

These are the things I see DRGs needing more than anything.

[Arlan]

Healing Breath 4

Remove Silence breath

No more shared timers on Soul/Spirit and jump/high jumps

Jump based weaponskills

More Wyvern survivability

These are the things I see DRGs needing more than anything.

I approve the OP's thread and this guy's Quote.
Enough said! =)

[Panthera]

I really liked the adjustment to the Wyvern to where it's behavior was more independant of the Dragoon's Support Job. However, it often feels like the Healing Breath is too little, too late. Dragoon needs either a trait or a new Helm that raises the minimum HP at which a Wyvern will cure. Not only that, but the flying companion is long since overdue for a new tier of Healing Breath.

I do like the idea of making the Wyvern capable of debuffing, and I'm glad to see that SE is clearly listening to it's player base in this instance. However, I'd hope for the debuff to be different in nature, like the grown up Wyvern's Radiant Breath.

Perhaps the debuff could be related to the element of the Breath it's doing. For example, the Earth Breath could have a chance of inflicting Slow, Ice Breath inflicts Paralyze, etc.

As for making jumps a dynamic part of combat... perhaps they could have Skillchain Properties?

[Malamasala]

Although I hate global timers with a passion. I could almost see DRG work with just a global timer Jump menu, in which you have plenty different ones to pick. More like QDs than BPs perhaps.

Though it is impossible to deny that is more fun with like 2-5 job abilities available to use.

[Seha]

Why doesn't DRG have lancet?
It should, it's a classic!

[OMEGA_HACK]

Spirit Surge = Lancet (they just didn't use the same wording for whatever reason; more than likely it was because a while back there was a big bit about who should get the ability...BLU or DRG)

[AyinDygra]

Spirit Surge is only Lancet in name, not function.
And it clearly should go to Dragoon.

[Leonlionheart]

Woah, Lancet should be a BLU thing, obviously. Khimari was a BLU with a lance, not a DRG that can use the abilities of enemies.

[Coldbrand]

You don't know your FF history then. Dragoon's before that furry had Lancet (or Lancer in some translations.) And Spirit Surge has jack to do with Lancet, who cares if the JP name for it is Lancet? Change it. Sucking up my wyvern's soul back into my body =/= hp/mp drain offensive attack.

But it's not a concern because we'll be getting tier 1 overwriteable wyvern breath debuffs, a JA that'll stop one aoe, and we get to make BLMs look better and help people who got real damage buffs (oh hey 1.25x damage against any mob with a weakness now every time on WAR with Ukon, sup permanent TP bonus on SAM) not die by lowering their hate instead.

I wouldn't be so harsh or negative about these changes honestly if not for the WAR/SAM ones which will clearly put them back into their own upper top tier echelon especially post Abyssea in the case of SAM in particular.

[Seha]

Woah, Lancet should be a BLU thing, obviously. Khimari was a BLU with a lance, not a DRG that can use the abilities of enemies.
/facepalm!

[Leonlionheart]

FFX was better anyway

I said this in another thread, but, I think what SE is trying to do with DRK and DRG is take them in other directions than just heavy DD. DRG more of an enmity control (which I honestly think will give it a place in HNM situations), while DRK's direction is just kind of silly atm.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Don't get me wrong Lancet is definitely a DRG thing and not a BLU thing, I'm just stating what has been stated already.

Also I am a little erked at why people claim DRG is overpowered already when these other jobs can dish out twice as much dmg easily, you know with SAMs new abilities they can deal ~15k in spike damage every 3min? (That isn't including their dot and ws in between that), what other job can honestly do that?

[Leonlionheart]

Don't get me wrong Lancet is definitely a DRG thing and not a BLU thing, I'm just stating what has been stated already.

Also I am a little erked at why people claim DRG is overpowered already when these other jobs can dish out twice as much dmg easily, you know with SAMs new abilities they can deal ~15k in spike damage every 3min? (That isn't including their dot and ws in between that), what other job can honestly do that?

15k Spike damage every 3minutes is very poor dps. 5k/minute is INCREDIBLY BAD in abyssea when DRG can do 2~5k/10s (No, it's not farfetched that Drakesbane can do 5k damage, and at 78% haste with a 6hit build DRG should be getting 100% in 10.68 seconds without DA, TA, Meditate, or Jumps.)

WAR>DRG>DRK>SAM abyssea
WAR>SAM>DRG>DRK other
DRG>WAR>SAMDRK Ryunohige (debatable)

DRG's damage is really good at the moment, just it doesn't have red procs like WAR does so no one is very interested.

[OMEGA_HACK]

um...Leon that 15k spike happens between Masamune's 2-4k ws that go off every 15seconds, SAM's @99 will be the top dogs, hands down. The 15k dmg happens in like 5seconds every 3min (recast timers) you've misread what I was trying to say.

[Yinnyth]

My opinion of DRG is that it has always been the least pet-oriented of the pet jobs. My opinion of the pet jobs is dragoon is a heavy DD with a slightly versatile pet that can cure or deal breath-type damage, beastmaster is a light DD with the ability to charm enemies and exploit the food chain, PUP is an extremely light DD with a very powerful pet, SMN is an ultra-light DD with super-powerful pets they can't maintain for long periods of time. Granted that's not the way it works in reality since SE is an absolute dunce when it comes to bringing pets in line with players, but that's the way I feel it should be.

That being said, I think the drg vision you list in the OP is too pet-centric, and would bring wyverns up to a level where they give puppets and avatars a run for their money. If you want the wyvern to be that powerful, you should be willing to sacrifice DRG's position as one of the highest damage dealers, and possibly even their ability to shed hate. The 3 other jobs who rely more heavily on their pets could use some of your listed improvements much more than dragoon could.

[Malamasala]

DRG's damage is really good at the moment, just it doesn't have red procs like WAR does so no one is very interested.

Obviously DRG is the weakest DD, because it loses all power when its pet dies!

[Ravenmore]

WTF does not hving red procs have to do with the pet dieing we lose all our power? If we could do more damage then war in abyssea no matter what we doing and still get passed over since we don't have as many red procs as war.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Actually we lose the Wyvern we lose over half of our TP gain...So making the DRG have a stronger pet is not out of the question at all, in fact I feel it should be the center point of the dragoon.

[Leonlionheart]

WTF does not hving red procs have to do witht he pet dieing we lose all our power? We could do more damage then war in abyssea no matter what we doing and still get passed over since we don't have as many red procs as war.

I don't know what you're so worked up about, I'm not even talking about pets. I'm just talking about the DRG.

But no, without Ryunohige there is no mathmatical way DRG, at this point in the game, could possibly do more damage than WAR. (assuming Ukon)

[Malamasala]

Oh right. Doesn't wyverns "feed TP" to the monster? I can now see why everyone hates DRG.

Honestly though. No pet should give any TP, just to avoid all the yelling from no-pet jobs about how we are ruining the evening with our massive TP spam. (Like 0% haste pets would come near the 50% haste melee with DA)

[Coldbrand]

Wyverns do have subtle blow.

[Dauntless]

WAR>SAM>DRG>DRK abyssea
WAR>SAM>DRG>DRK other
WAR>DRG>SAM>DRK Ryunohige

Fixed. haaaawhiteletters

[Ravenmore]

I don't know what you're so worked up about, I'm not even talking about pets. I'm just talking about the DRG.

But no, without Ryunohige there is no mathmatical way DRG, at this point in the game, could possibly do more damage than WAR. (assuming Ukon)

Wasn't reponding to you and I left out "IF we could do" drg would still get passed over. I will go edit it now so no more misudersatndings. We loss some tp gain we don't loss half our damage like pup would.

[Ravenmore]

Just to add more its been beaten to death but outside of lolexp it doesn't matter how much damage you can pump out. Who cares about that if you can't get the proc you need on the KI mobs to pop the mob your really after. I solo KIs to its fun but if I getting help i'm not going to waste the help by not taking one of them war or at the least nin.

[Dauntless]

Wasn't reponding to you and I left out "IF we could do" drg would still get passed over. I will go edit it now so no more misudersatndings. We loss some tp gain we don't loss half our damage like pup would.

Except our TP gain IS our damage.

[Ravenmore]

Except our TP gain IS our damage.

Still have a 6/5 hit and med and conserve tp and reg jumps and gear that enhaces tp on them easy to get to haste cap as well. We lose damage but we can live for a bit with out our pet, pups don't do as well unless they have emp. weapon. Still doesn't fix you can do all the damage you want in abyssea not going to make more useful then a 5/5 pearle war with all weapons skilled. A nin whm and war can farm emp. weapon all day with no problems. You can take more people but any gains you make in kill speed starts getting eaten by the herding factor.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Ravenmore, nothing you say about having good gear will top Spirit Jump and Soul Jump having the possibility (and a more frequent chance that most) to give 100+TP instantly. Having our Wyvern alive is KEY to making pretty numbers on Dragoon, hands down. When that little bugger dies my parses go out the window, and SAM WAR DRK can even outparse or tie (DRK) with DRG in terms of damage.

If the Wyvern was updated to lv90 (as it really stopped getting stuff back in the 50s) then I am sure it will be a much needed adjustment.

[Dauntless]

as it really stopped getting stuff back in the 50s

Hit the nail directly on the head. Our Wyverns have gotten NOTHING since super climb. Not another healing breath tier, not another ailment removal breath, nothing.

Also, I'm not sure I like the vision of "Dragoon: Enmity controller" at all. We're DDs with a pet that helps us outparse most jobs. I really do not want the focus of our job to be flipped so our main focus is controlling and diverting hate.

[Leonlionheart]

Fixed.

Very very wrong.


Just to add more its been beaten to death but outside of lolexp it doesn't matter how much damage you can pump out. Who cares about that if you can't get the proc you need on the KI mobs to pop the mob your really after. I solo KIs to its fun but if I getting help i'm not going to waste the help by not taking one of them war or at the least nin.

I care about how much damage it can do actually, since when I farm empyreans all I do is get the KI then get the kill with TH, I don't bother with any procs on the NM as long as the THF has initially hit the mob. Faster = better.

90% of Abyssea LS events are Empyrean farming anyway.

[Dauntless]

Very very wrong.


Gimp sam spamming 5k Fudo says hi.

[Leonlionheart]

Gimp sam spamming 5k Fudo says hi.

Gimp DRG spamming 5k Drakesbane says hi.

1.5k Jumps say hi.

TP gain is definitely on par with SAM, if not higher.

Math isn't wrong.

Plus 5k Fudo isn't as common as 5k Drakesbane.

[Dauntless]

Gimp DRG spamming 5k Drakesbane says hi.

1.5k Jumps say hi.

TP gain is definitely on par with SAM, if not higher.

Math isn't wrong.

Plus 5k Fudo isn't as common as 5k Drakesbane.

Don't see it. No matter how well geared the DRGs I've seen have been, never before have I seen a Dbane go above 4k unless a TA procs unless we're talking Ryunohige. Which I doubt we are since it has it's on category in your comparison.

1.5k jumps? My ass. Even when my jumps double attack they rarely go over 1.1k. Again, been with some pretty badass DRGs and 1.5k isn't close to the average. I'm fairly certain you're pulling these numbers out of your ass.

[Ravenmore]

So not procing red since thats what the post was about? learn to read. A war with all the weapons war can proc with with nin covers all red procs. Which trumps all jobs damage if you can get KIs every time.

[Seha]

I don't know about jumps but, you've never seen a Drakes go over 4k in Abyssea...?

Weird.

[Leonlionheart]

You must play with some really silly DRGs, SS+RR+Apoc should cause Drakesbane to do 4~6k.

Along with the proper gear ofc.

Sh!t, I've seen Drakesbane do 4k outside of abyssea.

I can't say the same for non-Trick Attack Fudo.

Even inside, it commonly does 2~3.5k.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Got a friend with a lv90 Masa he usually crits for ~600 reg attacks, Fudo usually dealing anywhere from 2.5k-5k with light landing for ~5k-10k and he is ws every 30 seconds or so (maybe faster never really timed it) and with all the new goodies SAM has received (for no apparent reason mind you) it makes them only stronger.

Compare that with a lv90 Rhongo and you won't even see close to those numbers, also mind you that those numbers are with /dnc. The only way my DRG can keep up is with /sam (again I have to rely on my subjob in order to make my job...that shouldn't happen imo; and without my Wyvern out I get hit even harder...)

Slice and dice it whatever way you want, we've parsed numerous times and he ALWAYS comes out on top, and my Drakes land for ~3k-5k but it's just not possible to keep up with him without a Wyvern, its IMPOSSIBLE. Which is why I am suggesting getting - damage taken traits to the Wyvern. The poor little beastie is stuck @lv50, why can't he just level up? (yes I know he "levels up to 90" but he doesn't get anything)

[Seha]

I thought oat spear was better than lolrhongo.

[Leonlionheart]

I thought oat spear was better than lolrhongo.

I think DA spear is better?

Well, Oa2 or DA is better than Rhongo.

Although I guess Rhongo would be good practice for using Ryunohige, since you should play them both in the same style.

[OMEGA_HACK]

yeah OAT spear is better but it still wont hold a candle to a 90Masa if you don't have your wyvern lol

[Leonlionheart]

Masa isn't very good.

[Coldbrand]

I just wanted to add in to the person who said we're not interested in being the masters of manipulating enmity, that's always been Thief's job and I'm sure Rangers feel the same way with the whole trying to bleed THF into our jobs. DRG is in a good spot right now and it's going to be really sad if they ignore the damage dealing aspects of MNK/DRG/RNG to try and make them more utility oriented. History has shown that people tend to care more about damage than utility, so it'd be really nice if we could get some kind of acknowledgement that the dev team understands this.

That or make the utility so great that it makes it worth sacrificing superior damage if you aren't going to keep damage in check. But really, I never signed up for a pet or support job. I signed up to jump. I'd go blow in a horn or pluck a harp if I cared about helping my teammates out so badly.

[Leonlionheart]

I just wanted to add in to the person who said we're not interested in being the masters of manipulating enmity, that's always been Thief's job and I'm sure Rangers feel the same way with the whole trying to bleed THF into our jobs. DRG is in a good spot right now and it's going to be really sad if they ignore the damage dealing aspects of MNK/DRG/RNG to try and make them more utility oriented. History has shown that people tend to care more about damage than utility, so it'd be really nice if we could get some kind of acknowledgement that the dev team understands this.

That or make the utility so great that it makes it worth sacrificing superior damage if you aren't going to keep damage in check. But really, I never signed up for a pet or support job. I signed up to jump. I'd go blow in a horn or pluck a harp if I cared about helping my teammates out so badly.

Well DRG has gotten some really good damage dealing jumps since 75, but hasn't DRG always had a support side to it?

People subbed BLU and RDM for a reason, though usually solo.

Funnest party I had was at lvl 61 birds, WAR+ 5x DRG/BLU. WAR for initial voke, then the thing just got penta thrusted to death. No one ever died either.

[Coldbrand]

Yeah, that's not really relevant to an endgame event at all. This content is being balanced around level 99 endgame content as is stated clearly at the start of the manifesto.

Our original hate management was because of the damage we'd put out (penta spam) and keeping the mob off OUR backs. I'm not looking to cover for other people, hate shedding is supposed to be one of the few things we have for ourselves as an advantage. I'd just like to hear what SE will be doing to keep DRG's damage relevant to what'll be happening to WARs and SAMs so that we actually have a need to shed hate to begin with.

Really not a fan of homogeous design, the whole point of the job system is to have unique options that stand out from each other that players can identify with and grow attached to. Making all the jobs do the same stuff is really annoying and cheapens the unique factor of each job. (Enmity Douse, Bounty Shot, Konzen-Ittai) Not to mention that homogeny has got to be the laziest form of balance and just results in exaggerating the differences between which jobs are better once they all present the same options.

[Leonlionheart]

Really not a fan of homogeous design, the whole point of the job system is to have unique options that stand out from each other that players can identify with and grow attached to. Making all the jobs do the same stuff is really annoying and cheapens the unique factor of each job. (Enmity Douse, Bounty Shot, Konzen-Ittai) Not to mention that homogeny has got to be the laziest form of balance and just results in exaggerating the differences between which jobs are better once they all present the same options.

Well as it stands the job's ... job description... is blurred with WAR's right now anyway.

DRG: JUMP JUMP WS WS WS WS JUMP WS WS WS JUMP JUMP WS WS WS WS oops forgot Hasso, JUMP oh hey look my wyvern's still alive lol cool JUMP WS WS nope nevermind it died.

WAR: BERSERK BLOOD RAGE RETALIATION WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WAR CRY WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS oops forgot Hasso RETALIATION WS WS WS WS BERSERK WS WS WS WS

I don't know if continuing to add jumps that do nothing other than damage is really what players want to separate DRG from WAR. Plus, jumps have that enmity reduction factor on them already. High Jump = -30%, Super Jump = -50%, allowing for them to keep pounding on the mob without being detected, while WAR just get's beat up on constantly and has always been an MP sponge.

I personally like the idea of enmity control for DRG. Granted it is THF's past role- but if you're going there then it was also DRK, SAM, and WAR's role too. Considering in the classic tank and spank scenario they all subbed THF for enmity control. I think that DRG getting it's own version of enmity control will allow it to sub SAM while DRK and WAR have to sub THF if we ever revert to tank and spank methods.

Edit: However I realize that players want is more damage rather than more utility, but that's not what makes it a unique job.

[Karbuncle]

No job wants to be a master of Enmity >_> not even THF.

[Leonlionheart]

:\ I think the game will really need it assuming we don't go for more easy mode events like Abyssea anymore.

I mean if the actual enemies are strong?

And you need a PLD, because it two hits MNK

but you need a WAR too, because it's not dying fast enough

and the BLMs and WHMs keep getting hate,

Everyone will be all like "Damnit gotta go sub THF!"

[Malamasala]

No job wants to be a master of Enmity >_> not even THF.

Pretty sure it isn't job based, but player based.

Like I want Summoner to be a jack of all trades, not master of anything, just good enough at spirits, rages, wards. But you'll still find a bunch of people that just want Summoner to be the best spike damage for no hate job.

I'm still not sure why, but almost all people playing a standard melee job only want to do damage. I guess the simple truth is that nobody wants strategy involved. Just engage, drink coffee, WS play. Which is a shame, since this game could be plenty fun if we needed another job than WAR in it.

[Karbuncle]

No job wants to be a master of Enmity control because most people can already control their own enmity through basic intelligence and precautions.

Each job has its own method of controlling Enmity, even a job that doesn't and Collaborator becomes useful, it absorbs 25% of that persons enmity, it doesnt erase it completely, it goes to the THF... so Eventually that THF will tank and die. (if its on content harder than Abyssea)

On the topic of SMN, SMN is the best Hate-less DD. They have a great role in events like Voidwatch. Everyone whines about it being useless when they really shine in certain events. Voidwatch is one, The only thing i can truly think of for 90 cap, but thats because most content is Abyssea related atm.

I want SMN buffs to be buffed a bit, But they're far from useless unless you just dont play the job well or go with bad people who don't understand its uses. for instance back at 75 cap, SMN was useful for Tiamat, KSNM99 Wyrm and Behemoth, Ouryu, Most Jailer fights, Any kited HNM fight (Like say, King Behemoth), to a lesser Extent things like Perfect Defense on AV, or a lot of different Zerg fights.

They could solo KSNM's like E-Vase-Ive action, and ENMs like "Like the Wind" or w/e the devil that Eft fight was... SMN is an amazing job for its niche, Hateless Spike Damage.

I'm not saying it doesn't need buffs but its not really a bad job, Its just hurt in Abyssea, like DRK, PLD, and a few others. But Abyssea isn't going to last forever and we're already moving away, Hell PLD is already useful again for Voidwatch. Once the Abyssea-high is over it'll fall back into decent routines.

Anywho, Enough about that eh!

[Leonlionheart]

No job wants to be a master of Enmity control because most people can already control their own enmity through basic intelligence and precautions.

I can control my own enmity on war.

If control means get it to 100% in 1~3 WS's.

Somehow I don't think it does.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're trying to say but, THF is the only one at the moment that has any form of hate control (Can take and give it).

[Karbuncle]

I can control my own enmity on war.

If control means get it to 100% in 1~3 WS's.

Somehow I don't think it does.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're trying to say but, THF is the only one at the moment that has any form of hate control (Can take and give it).

By enmity control I mean not going up and spamming Ukkos and getting 3-shotted there-after, like for instance, on BLM, most BLMs know the golden rule of not nuking Big nukes non-stop back to back unless they want to get stomped or have Enmity Douse up.

You are correct, maybe i should be a little more clear on the matter, right now THF's abilities in Enmity control are very situational. Collab/Accompl are great for quick moments if a mage/DD gets hate... But that 25% per use adds up over time to eventually the THF is the one getting hate, and he has no way to shed it outside of dying, or if he's really lucky, Hide (That doesnt work on 99% of NMs).

If they gave us a lot more useful Enmity control it wouldn't be too bad, Because it could speed up battles if a THF could take say, 25% of some BLMs enmity and dump it into oblivion instead of on himself, a BLM could nuke more, and thus kill faster.

But what i meant originally when i said most jobs know how to control their Enmity, I meant "A WAR knows to let his VE go down before blowing more WS's in the mobs face". Theres little you can do about CE though, it'll add up. Anyway, Performing actions to minimize the time you have hate is what i meant by "Enmity control", rather it be a WAR only going in to WS a mob, or a BLM nuking in longer intervals than normal... or a SAM who gets hate immediately putting on a PDT set and letting the mob beat the CE out of him with minimal MP sponged.

Edit: and of course I'm not referring to Abyssea. Abyssea is god-mode land where you rarely have to care about Enmity. I'm talking about harder content such as say, Voidwatch. I go to that example a lot as its the only real endgame content thats remotely difficult, and requires a bit of enmity controlling/restraint.

[Seha]

Accomplice->Trick attack. It's not hard to dump enmity.

[Karbuncle]

Accomplice->Trick attack. It's not hard to dump enmity.

Trick attack doesn't give any of the THFs enmity away. There is no dumping of Enmity involved. It only gives the enmity that the THF would have gained from the Damage of Trick attack to the person trick-attacked.

[Seha]

That's why you use it with a ws, so that the tricked gets a big enmity spike.

[Karbuncle]

That's why you use it with a ws, so that the tricked gets a big enmity spike.

But that still wouldn't dump the Enmity :X, which is where the problem lies. It would eventually, through Collaborator, Cap the THF on Enmity, Which could prove troublesome. Especially say if hes in Voidwatch and, what with collaborator being only 12' range, He uses Collaborate at a BLM, the mob turns (because he has capped Enmity from repeated use) and uses say.. Arm cannon on the THF, and it hits the BLMs because of it.

if THF is going to be the master of "The tides of battle" and "enmity control" they need an ability to dump that enmity into nothing-ness or the only solution would be the THF repeatedly dying to clear his enmity >.<

[OMEGA_HACK]

How did the DRG thread turn into thf and smn thread?

Back on topic, I don't need any more enm- SE I have Super Jump, and if I REALLY have to I can sacrifice using Soul Jump to use High Jump, and my enmity is usually gone. My god, we don't need anymore enmity control on our job. Just give us what was listed in the original post to our Wyvern at least and we'll be dandy for a while.

[Yugl]

The biggest problems with DRG are...

1. Abilities tied to Wyvern
2. Abilities tied to other abilities

Issue (1) is that wyvern durability is almost nonexistent. SE can resolve this by making wyverns survivability greater or by reducing the recast of wyverns significantly (1-3min perhaps). If you're going to tie our melee capabilities to our wyvern, you need to make access to a wyvern as easy as it is for SMN and BST. Ignorant people will probably respond by demanding enhanced melee capability for SMN and BST, but they forget that the damage potential of our pets is leagues apart. The OP has made an effort to resolve this, but I don't think that his or her suggestions necessarily fix the problem. Instead, we should grant the wyvern near invulnerability while placing restrictions on wyvern tanking. For example, you can have wyvern's enmity rapidly reduce over time (Stopping at a certain VE/CE value if necessary).

Issue (2) is resolvable by significantly reducing the recast of tied abilities when opting for one jump over another. However, I think most players would prefer untied abilities.

Lets look at DRG's DD abilities by situation:

1. Dragon mob, wyvern up (best case scenario)
- Ancient Circle (3/20ths the fight with Brais)
- Dragon Breaker (3/10ths the fight)
- Spirit Jump
- Soul Jump
- Angon (1/2 the fight)
- Deep Breathing (Marginal at best)
- Spirit Link (Assuming Empathy even copies haste buffs)
- Smiting Breath

2. Wyvern up (Common for certain XP mobs)
- Spirit Jump
- Soul Jump
- Angon (1/2 the fight)
- Deep Breathing
- Spirit Link
- Smiting Breath

3. Dragon mob, no Wyvern
- Ancient Circle (3/20ths the fight)
- Dragon Breaker (3/10ths the fight)
- Jump
- High/Soul Jump (Decreased enhancement)
- Angon (1/2 the fight)

4. No Wyvern or Dragon mob (Common scenario against tougher NMs)
- Jump
- High/Soul Jump
- Angon (1/2 the fight)


That's an overly generous list. Realistically, Deep Breathing, Smiting Breath, and Spirit Link shouldn't make the list. Furthermore, the DD potential drops significantly once we resort back to Jump/High Jump. Notice that our best ability, persistently, is Angon. SE should make DRG a DD that enhances the PT's DD potential. AOE Buffs and debuffs is the best direction to take DRG. This need not conflict with mages as there are a variety of AoE buffs/debuffs you can offer us that will not allow us to replace mages. Buffs from mages tend to focus on haste/attack enhancements. Debuffs from mages, on the other hand, tend to cripple the mob's offensive. I think mages would like to branch out into crippling the mob's defensive stats more than they currently do, but that will be for the dev team to work out.

[Leonlionheart]

By enmity control I mean not going up and spamming Ukkos and getting 3-shotted there-after, like for instance, on BLM, most BLMs know the golden rule of not nuking Big nukes non-stop back to back unless they want to get stomped or have Enmity Douse up.

You are correct, maybe i should be a little more clear on the matter, right now THF's abilities in Enmity control are very situational. Collab/Accompl are great for quick moments if a mage/DD gets hate... But that 25% per use adds up over time to eventually the THF is the one getting hate, and he has no way to shed it outside of dying, or if he's really lucky, Hide (That doesnt work on 99% of NMs).

If they gave us a lot more useful Enmity control it wouldn't be too bad, Because it could speed up battles if a THF could take say, 25% of some BLMs enmity and dump it into oblivion instead of on himself, a BLM could nuke more, and thus kill faster.

But what i meant originally when i said most jobs know how to control their Enmity, I meant "A WAR knows to let his VE go down before blowing more WS's in the mobs face". Theres little you can do about CE though, it'll add up. Anyway, Performing actions to minimize the time you have hate is what i meant by "Enmity control", rather it be a WAR only going in to WS a mob, or a BLM nuking in longer intervals than normal... or a SAM who gets hate immediately putting on a PDT set and letting the mob beat the CE out of him with minimal MP sponged.

Edit: and of course I'm not referring to Abyssea. Abyssea is god-mode land where you rarely have to care about Enmity. I'm talking about harder content such as say, Voidwatch. I go to that example a lot as its the only real endgame content thats remotely difficult, and requires a bit of enmity controlling/restraint.

Well let's hope SE realizes this, and allows these abilities to become more in depth.

Somehow though, I get the feeling that SE really is too lazy, or the budget is simply too small, to deal with enmity in advanced ways considering Enmity Douse is the most simple of all enmity control (Just puts you at the bottom of the list).

But, doesn't High Jump already have a -30% enmity reduction effect? And Super Jump -50%?

Edit: Apparently /DRG is -30%, DRG main is -50%, and Super Jump is -99% of "Accumulated Enmity"

[OMEGA_HACK]

yeah they want to basically say those effects will be added to the person behind you and call it a DRG update...

Oh thanks SE, how kind of you; lol... /sarcasm

[Leonlionheart]

I wouldn't mind if it had nothing to do with placement. Or if it shared the same timer as Super Jump.

[noodles355]

nice to see threads about Drg, a job with comparitively few problems, in general forum stays here, but a topic about thief, which has much more issues, gets moderated and moved to the job specific forum where it is left to rot without any other cknowlegement from SE.

[Seha]

nice to see threads about Drg, a job with comparitively few problems, in general forum stays here, but a topic about thief, which has much more issues, gets moderated and moved to the job specific forum where it is never acknowleged at all.
Whining will help your cause for sure.

[Karbuncle]

Whining will help your cause for sure.

If history is any indication the sarcasm is meaningless as it actually will. >___>

[Leonlionheart]

THF has problems? I thought 8k Rudra's Storms were good, I guess I was wrong.

TH7 is something to complain about too

Not to mention it is by far the most wanted job for empyrean farming, along side WAR NIN and WHM.

I'll add it has the most evasion, and can actually pull off evasion tanking as /war in some cases.

[Karbuncle]

Spoilered for off-topic-THF related content in DRG thread.

[Coldbrand]

Guess which job this thread isn't for.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, I know my discussion was off topic and i apologize.

Knowing it was off topic is why i Spoilered it, hoping it wouldn't take the original topic too far off course, By making it to where people wouldn't have to read it if they chose not too... If i could have PM'd him i would have.

I Even labeled it so people knew it was off-OP topic.

I was simply responding to a post made in my direction. In an attempt to be courteous and knowing my discussion was off topic, i Spoilered it to keep it from blowing up too big, and to allow the readers of the DRG thread to not be forced to read it.

You can continue your DRG related discussion any time you wish. I do not (and did not) intend to take the discussion any further.

[noodles355]

THF has problems? I thought 8k Rudra's Storms were good, I guess I was wrong.

TH7 is something to complain about too

Not to mention it is by far the most wanted job for empyrean farming, along side WAR NIN and WHM.

I'll add it has the most evasion, and can actually pull off evasion tanking as /war in some cases.
8k WS. That's great, except that that is linked to SA and TA, it's timers and it's positioning. One of those and you're pretty much hate capped. Making it even harder to pull it off again.

If Thief was Warrior, this is basically what the update would have given you:
We're going to focus on buffing Warrior's Defence Bonus and Resist Virus traits.
We're going to give Warrior's Charge to Samurai as well.
We're going to give Berserk and Aggressor to Dragoon and Dark Knight as well.

Thief is good in abyssea because it can tank and apply TH at the same time. It's damage is good and on par with any other crit WS job, however it's far from the strongest.

On remotely hard content we do shit. SE won't even give us Subtle Blow traits to offset our sub-200 delay daggers.
Thief was screaming for DW for years. they gave it to Dnc. They gave a force crit ability to Dnc. They want to give Triple Attack ability to Dnc.

The problem with Thief is that SE only wants to boost Steal and Enmity control. Steal is a steaming pile of shit, and all they want to do is up success rate so we can steal more Bone Chips and inflict random statuses on unimportant mobs with a 5 minute recast. Sounds awesome.

SE ignore the playerbase, and what they want from thief, they go back on their plans to enhance our DD capabilities and they give our signature abilities to other jobs.

[Leonlionheart]

Should THF be a great DD?
You need to ask yourself what it should be better than while still being able to give the ABSOLUTE best trait in the game. TH.

Better than PUP? Well yeah, if the PUP is using WHM frame.
Better than COR? Yeah, COR has great party utility.
Better than DNC? It should be. DNC can do so much in both solo and party settings.
Better than NIN? I don't know. NIN has less evasion than THF, and it's the premier evasion tank.
Better than RNG? Well RNG is kind of a Dedicated DD, isn't it? It gets TH now but its much less potent than THF TH.
More damage than DRK? No. THF should never do more damage than DRK. All DRK is is DD, it contributes nothing else to the party except for stuns.

You want to be doing more damage than dedicated DDs, while still maintaining incredibly high evasion(easily the highest), while still having some remnants of enmity control, while still having TH.

Though I agree; the THF update is awful, but THF is already an incredibly useful job. Everyone needs it just for TH, and would invite it even if it did absolutely nothing else but sit there and increase the drop rates of items.

[Karbuncle]

I appologize to the DRG community again.

[Leonlionheart]

I appologize to the DRG community again.




I don't think the update for THFs is good, but it's particularly hard to keep THF below a certain level, while still keeping it above a certain level.

Abyssea kind of shows this, making THF better than the truest dedicated DDs, like SAM and DRK.

Though I don't disagree with you, outside it does need buffing. But at what slot should it go in, that it doesn't already?

[Karbuncle]

I don't think the update for THFs is good, but it's particularly hard to keep THF below a certain level, while still keeping it above a certain level.

Abyssea kind of shows this, making THF better than the truest dedicated DDs, like SAM and DRK.

Though I don't disagree with you, outside it does need buffing. But at what slot should it go in, that it doesn't already?

[Leonlionheart]

I'm surprised it doesn't already have that JT lol

off topic too long,

DRG is cool

[noodles355]

Inside Abyssea, any job with a critical hit WS is strong. That's not a comment on Thief as when those WSs most used (outside of empyrean) were introduced, there probably weren't any plans for abyssea.

If you want a good direction for Thief that isn't pure DD, then take a look at some of the great steal ideas that SE has decided to completely ignore in favour of just upping the success rate.
Upping the success rate on steal is like polishing a turd. It may be shiney, but it's still a turd. The whole steal system needs a re-work, and there are really good suggestions about what should be done.

Currently, the only good steal ability is Aura Steal, and it has a 5 minute timer and is cockblocked if the mob holds something. Apart from a certain Qiqirin in Salvage, and Brigandish Blade, there's really nothing worth stealing. Despoil is just steal but inflicts a random debuff. Useless on NMs as they don't carry stuff. Useless in general because you can't plan around it to make it useful.

Ideas have been thrown out like:
Make Aura Steal own ability, lower recast, merit catagory just increase success rate (dispel only @ 0/5, +X% absorb rate per merit).
Make Steal steal tempory items. The quality varying with the mob.
There's really fantastic despoil suggestions, like making them work like stratagems or quick draw and be a catagory with different debuffs you can despoil, and most importantly making it have nothing to do with the item stolen.

Things like this, and suddenly you get Thf from tagging the mob and AFKing, to being able to contribute more stuff outside of direct damage as well.

[Karbuncle]

Lets go here

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11492-Screwed-again-Proposed-THF-job-adjustments.

[noodles355]

Let's go there to look, but come back to discuss. At least in this forum there's a tiny chance someone from SE may reply.

It's obvious the SE reps read a lot of the topics, through the nature of some of their replies, and through the fact that some are moderated and moved. Yet they won't even bother to reply to any single thief topic about the issues that are raised time and time again.

[Karbuncle]

I just don't want to continue here because it will likely be moderated for off topic discussion, no matter what we say :\

I'd like to think they have a reason that they never post in Job Forums. I assume they don't respond because they don't have the answers. I can't blame them. I know they read and send it off we cant be mad at them for anything :X

Plus when they do respond they still get hate-responses sometimes. Its a thankless job sometimes, They're only human, Shit If i was them I'd probably stop responding to so many threads if no one ever appreciated the work i did -.-

[Malamasala]

Currently, the only good steal ability is Aura Steal, and it has a 5 minute timer and is cockblocked if the mob holds something. Apart from a certain Qiqirin in Salvage, and Brigandish Blade, there's really nothing worth stealing. Despoil is just steal but inflicts a random debuff. Useless on NMs as they don't carry stuff. Useless in general because you can't plan around it to make it useful.

I wish SE realized that debuffs are meant to have short recasts so you can use them, not long ones so you use them occasionally if you feel like it. Imagine if Dispel had a 5 min recast for RDM, or if Flash had a 5 min recast on PLD. Even aspir and drain tend to be on the too long recast scale. (Except for PUP maybe, since if the recast isn't done I guess it can cast a nuke?)

[noodles355]

I'm not looking for answers. I'm looking for acknowlegement. I can see at least 5 topics related to steal in the first page of the thief forum. Yet not even a quick note saying "Looks like a lot of people are unhappy with steal, we'll pass this feedback on to the dev team." That sentance took me about 10 or 15 seconds to write.

[Yugl]

This is a DRG thread. You guys can make your own THF thread if you want to complain about that.

[Karbuncle]

This is a DRG thread. You guys can make your own THF thread if you want to complain about that.

Theres plenty already, I tried directing it there :(

[OMEGA_HACK]

I am sure the forum reps have sent these DRG ideas over to the dev team, (as they try to get as much feed back and information from us to them) so I wonder if the devs have a particular comment on what has been presented for the topic of DRG updates.

If they will not give us traits to the Wyvern like listed in the Original Post then why, I guess would be my reason. Something more than a malarkey response of 'It would overpower the job' (since it really wouldn't it would at most put it on par with the other heavy DD jobs) would be greatly appreciated. So, any word yet forum reps?

[Leonlionheart]

I am sure the forum reps have sent these DRG ideas over to the dev team, (as they try to get as much feed back and information from us to them) so I wonder if the devs have a particular comment on what has been presented for the topic of DRG updates.

If they will not give us traits to the Wyvern like listed in the Original Post then why, I guess would be my reason. Something more than a malarkey response of 'It would overpower the job' (since it really wouldn't it would at most put it on par with the other heavy DD jobs) would be greatly appreciated. So, any word yet forum reps?

I'd like to know too, I enjoy playing DRG.

It's really not a great job in a party setting at the moment though, not on high level mobs anyway

[noodles355]

This is a DRG thread. You guys can make your own THF thread if you want to complain about that.So it's moved from general to thief forum, making topic number 6 (at least) relating to steal, without actually replying to it?

[Yugl]

Care to rephrase that in English?

[Camate]

Sorry to jump into the discussion, but I bring some information regarding the feedback we have been receiving!


“Adding the effect of reducing magic resistance to certain wyvern breath attacks” is the same effect as elemental ninjutsu spells, isn’t it? Additionally, you are able to select your ninjutsu, so shouldn’t you add some kind of selection process to this, too?

The effect will be different than elemental ninjutsu spells.

During the most recent version update, the following feature was introduced: “During the window of time in which players may perform magic bursts after a skillchain, the target's resistance to the skillchain's corresponding element(s) will now decrease.” Along those same lines, we are considering making the same adjustment to a wyvern’s breath attack. This effect would be added to the breath itself, so you won’t need to worry about intricate timing to reap the benefits.

In regards to whether we can make it possible to select the type of elemental breath to use, since it’s already possible to do this with support jobs and the drachen armet, we are planning to keep it as is for now.


For the ability that makes wyverns more difficult to KO, would the recast time be really long? Is this going to be a base reduction in damage they sustain, adding a really potent regen, or something completely different?

The recast time really depends on the effect we introduce, but we are not at the stage where we can divulge any details. However, we are aware that wyverns are quite easily KOed and feel this is a very important point.

As for the specific stats, we are thinking more along the lines of a stoneskin-like effect.


Wouldn’t “adding an effect to Jump, High Jump, and Super Jump that reduces enmity of the player behind the dragoon” off-set its usability?

1) Since Spirit Jump/Soul Jump is so powerful, if a wyvern is present, Jump/High Jump is not used.
2) Since the current ability range is short, in order to shed enmity on a back-row job, wouldn’t they have to run into the enemy’s attack range? It seems like it would be necessary to increase the jump range as well as give separate recast timers for each one.

We are also aware of these things and will be looking into it.


Make the haste effect from Spirit Surge just like the haste of Hasso and Last Resort (desperate blows), not magic-related haste. Also, make it so our wyverns don’t disappear upon its use.

Since it’s a two-hour ability, we will be looking into the haste-related aspect of the ability. However, in regards to wyverns disappearing, since players’ stats are boosted significantly more than when the wyvern is present we plan on keeping it the way it is for now.


Make Angon’s defense down effect higher in priority so it cannot be overwritten.

We will be looking into this along with the revamping of merit point job categories.


Make it possible for wyverns to grow in size and let us ride on them.

While we really want to make is possible to ride wyverns and have them grow in size, unfortunately system wise this is difficult. (It MIGHT be possible to make them bigger though...)

[Leonlionheart]

Thank you Camate.

[Gokku]

if they get bigger im leveling drg...

[Alhanelem]

bigger wyvern = cooler :p

But 'd rather them use real wyvern models ;p

[Coldbrand]

So basically:

[Leonlionheart]

why in hell's name do people think SAM deals good damage in abyssea?

I can see outside, where the line is more skewed, but inside DRG beats the shit out of SAM

[Reiterpallasch]

Since it’s a two-hour ability, we will be looking into the haste-related aspect of the ability. However, in regards to wyverns disappearing, since players’ stats are boosted significantly more than when the wyvern is present we plan on keeping it the way it is for now.
Spirit Surge haste being JA based instead would be a HUGE improvement to our 2hr.

The other issue with our 2hr though, is that it effectively completely nullifies both spirit/soul jump effects as well as our AF3+2 set bonus. If we must absolutely lose our wyverns during 2hr (understandable) we should still retain the effects that are based on a wyvern being present. After all, you ARE merging its power with your own.

[Ophannus]

Fervor - Increases Attack Speed but reduces Wyvern Breath Accuracy.
Gives +10% Job Ability Haste to the DRG for 3 min.

I was thinking since SAM has a Haste ability, and WAR has attack abilities, why does DRG not have a single self buffing Job Ability besides Ancient Circle? Can we get a self buff ability like berserk/hasso/innin/velocity shot/last resort? Just something that either increases our attack, damage, weapon skill damage, critical hit rate or attack speed for a moderate duration of 3-4 minutes? I just think DRG deserves a self buff ability besides hasso/seigen from our subjob. Maybe a wyvern breath that increases attack, or haste?

[Leonlionheart]

Fervor - Increases Attack Speed but reduces Wyvern Breath Accuracy.
Gives +10% Job Ability Haste to the DRG for 3 min.

I was thinking since SAM has a Haste ability, and WAR has attack abilities, why does DRG not have a single self buffing Job Ability besides Ancient Circle? Can we get a self buff ability like berserk/hasso/innin/velocity shot/last resort? Just something that either increases our attack, damage, weapon skill damage, critical hit rate or attack speed for a moderate duration of 3-4 minutes? I just think DRG deserves a self buff ability besides hasso/seigen from our subjob. Maybe a wyvern breath that increases attack, or haste?

I was thinking about that, but...

Jumps are pretty powerful.

[Amador]

Hello Camate! I've been a career Dragoon for years and while I do welcome any and all job adjustments, some haven't been making a lot of sense to me.

It sounds as if you're stating that wyverns will either be able to:

A: Further reduce the magic defense of that elemental breath to cause more damage for other party members' magical attacks, as well as subsequent breath attacks.

B: Reduce the magical resistance of the elemental breath used to improve consistency of damage for party members' magical attacks, and subsequent breath attacks.

If A1, would it be a flat increase that is only applicable once, or stack-able through subsequent breath uses of the same element?

If A2, should your Wyvern use: Flame Breath -> Frost Breath, would the Fire defense down effect be over written by the by the Ice defense or would we have two separate defense downs on the target at this point?

Side-note: Any thoughts on allowing the Wyvern’s Breaths to inflict enfeebling effects on Enemies?
IE: Frost Breath - Paralyze

Now, as far as the survival of the Wyvern wouldn't it simply be easier to allow the Wyvern to be curable by the mages in the party? The biggest issue with Wyvern survival is versus notorious monster type enemies, which make quick work after Spirit Link and Pet related potions have been used. Even if you added a stoneskin effect to the Wyvern that lasted for 500 hit points, it still wouldn't save the Wyvern from immediately being taken down shortly after especially on enemies whom use magic often and area of effect abilities.

That in consideration, would it be possible if there was an implication where as the Dragoon description goes, Warrior's who leap in and out of the fray of battle. Why not allow our Wyvern to do the same, and remove the penalty for Dismiss?

Then if so, why stop there? Why not remove the penalty of not being able to re-summon your Wyvern if you dismiss it when HP isn’t full? I understand this seems much like Super Jump, but that's an impractical solution, especially when trying to maintain the monsters attention.

The above would allow a player to control, and secure his Wyvern from being killed during heated battles, while still being able to re-summon at will given the Wyvern isn't killed before hand. Keep in mind I am not saying lower the Call Wyvern Ability down to 10 minutes like Beastmaster Jug Pets, but honestly that's an idea too.

However, wishes aside if stoneskin-like ability is introduced, could it by chance have the effect of Sentinels' Scherzo or Earthen Armor?

Simply on the mindset that, having a 3-5 minute recast stoneskin for a Wyvern and having it absorb anywhere from 300-500 damage wouldn't really move the Wyvern away from death against a monster like Amarok. It would simply delay an inevitable outcome of the Dragoon waiting on a 20:00 Min recast to summon Wyvern.

As far as Jumps go, could it possible to apply a attribute for damage increase on High/Soul/Spirit Jumps much like that of Jump and it's correlation with Vitality?

This would make the use of the original Jumps more favorable in the given situation, as well as improve what the newer jumps can do in the occasion that the Wyvern is not alive, and highly benefiting when it is alive.

Personally, as far as hate shed for party members being applied towards: Jump, High Jump and Super Jump seems rather lackluster. In the event that a strategy involves tanking in front of the enemy, and should for some reason a tank position behind you, the use of these abilities would cause nothing but issues and even lead to a potentially deadly ending: IE Spiked Flail.

I've always wanted Jump, High Jump and Super Jump to provide positive effects, for the Dragoon and the Wyvern and or negative effects for the enemy much like what they do during Spirit Surge. Enmity Down for party members addition on paper seems like wasted potential and impractical to a point.

[Ophannus]

DRG, the way it's been developed thus far is too multifaceted. We're an accurate melee pet job with high tp gain that also heals and will soon be able to debuff the target with breaths. We also lower the mob's defense and erase others people's hate as well as shed our own.

DRG has too many little things it does but in the bigger picture our role is hazy. We're more hybridy than any other hybrid. We heal, we debuff, we shed hate, we DD, we shed other's hate, we gain lots of TP, we have high acc. Our traits and job abilities are so underdevleoped and lack focus that jobs like WAR DRK SAM MNK NIN have. Those jobs have specialties like damage, HP and counter, evasion, attack speed, TP gain etc.. I suppose our specialty is our wyvern but the wyvern too is underdeveloped. It's a floating Enfire with an HP bar, that occasionally adds 40-200 damage to our weapon skills, and heals us once a minute depending on subjob. It need more though.


Also...care to explain why the modifier for Geirskogul on the DRG relic WS is Agility? Why is the modifier for our Empyrean WS VIT? Why not put VIT on the MNK emyrean WS and put STR on the DRG one? After all MNK has more VIT gear available and DRG has more STR gear available. DRG can't be taken seriously when SE puts silly modifiers on our weapon skills to make us seem 'different'. I feel like DRG is the hipster of DDs. "Our emp weapon has VIT on it and our WS is 60% VIT unlike the rest of you melees with your 60% STR modifier on WS and +15 STR on your weapons..ooh we're different"

Also answer the age old question. Gungnir. Geirskogul. Shockspikes. WHY? Maybe if they were badass shockspikes that dealt 50-80 damage and had a high chance to stun or a super long stun duration. But in practice it's a normal shock spikes effect that deal 11-18 damage with low chance to stun. Why would SE have thought that would be useful for a job that struggled to get hate back in the days when our best WS (Wheeling Thrust) did 100-300 damage while SAM/WAR/DRKs were doing 5-10x more...

[Kiroko]

Bigger = Better, Make them bigger!!!!!!!!

[OMEGA_HACK]

oh no, don't give into the "We'll make the Wyverns bigger!" idea...it's gonna be Wyvern emotes all over again D:>

(In case you are not familiar of what I speak of, there was once an update where all the jobs got goodies...but Dragoon's just got Wyvern Emotes while everyone else got practical updates)

[Coldbrand]

Yeah, that's what these people aren't getting is that WAR is literally getting 125% damage while we get a completely aesthetic addition. My beef is that all these changes aren't about me the Dragoon itself. My wyvern is not me, the black mage I hook up is not me, the newly top tier again SAM whose life I save isn't me.

What am I a bard? I'm not looking to be a support class, I'm looking to compete with those WARs and SAMs after the content shifts away from Abyssea and the loss of Razed Ruins and the HNMs etc. who are a level much higher than I am with significant defense pulls all the SAMs and RNGs out of the woodwork. Things will be LESS balanced after this list of ideas they have are implemented which is frustrating to say the least.

But hey, it's cool, the rep posted in here and showed us all a treat instead of talking about their plans for keeping our damage on the competitive edge, so let's all lay down and roll over like good boys.

[Leonlionheart]

Yeah, that's what these people aren't getting is that WAR is literally getting 125% damage while we get a completely aesthetic addition. My beef is that all these changes aren't about me the Dragoon itself. My wyvern is not me, the black mage I hook up is not me, the newly top tier again SAM whose life I save isn't me.

What am I a bard? I'm not looking to be a support class, I'm looking to compete with those WARs and SAMs after the content shifts away from Abyssea and the loss of Razed Ruins and the HNMs etc. who are a level much higher than I am with significant defense pulls all the SAMs and RNGs out of the woodwork. Things will be LESS balanced after this list of ideas they have are implemented which is frustrating to say the least.

But hey, it's cool, the rep posted in here and showed us all a treat instead of talking about their plans for keeping our damage on the competitive edge, so let's all lay down and roll over like good boys.

I agree, the lack of attack on DRG is a big issue. Not to mention that unlike WAR DRG doesn't get much in terms of Critical Damage Bonus, other than AF3+2 legs (while WAR gets AF3+2 Feet with the same value, and 8% in traits).

Since critical damage is now a HUGE part of DRG (Drakesbane+Soul Jump make up for most of DRG's damage) DRG should at least get a bonus in critical rate, to offset the failure to bring good attack to the picture.

DRG is essentially forced to /SAM, like all two-handers. If you lose out on Hasso and STP(allowing a decent xhit) your DPS drops significantly. So it's not like /WAR is really an option.

Enmity control is nice, but on high defense, high agility enemies the enmity shedding capabilities of DRG are kind of useless, considering they won't be getting hate like WAR will.

[Amador]

This is indeed true, they haven't given Dragoon anything that makes them a true stand alone job. Regardless of the fact that it's a "Pet job" the pet is beyond fragile. Even with Empathy Shell V + Protect V. Not to mention Empathy transfers worthless buffs like Seigan and Hasso over from time to time.

Dragoon is in need of additional critical hit rate, and an attack booster to help it better compete. It seems like every other job is getting a solid damage increase, while we're basically keeping the same, and simply getting a wyvern beef that should of been there from the start.

[Tagrineth]

The biggest thing DRG falls short in is Attack.

[Leonlionheart]

In Abyssesa DRG is amazing. Drakesbane for 4~7k and Spirit Jumps and Soul Jumps for 700~2k depending on DA TA.

Not to mention those jumps when TA'd or DA'd give 50~120 TP. On DRG I seem to WS more than on WAR, unless the target can TA or DA itself.

[Malacite]

Yeah except Abyssea is over, so it's back to regular game mechanics.


At this point, I'd settle for at least Healing Breath V and for Elemental Breaths to be bumped up to roughly 1/2 WS damage. Dunno if that should apply to Smiting Breath as well however, as that would be somewhat crazy. But the little guy is definitely in need of a big power boost given the lack of durability.

Also, can we make DRG's "alternate" version of Super Jump function like classic jump? Leap into the air for a set period of time, totally invincible, and then come crashing down for double damage. Aftermath/DA/TA etc should also be able to proc on this.

[Amador]

Perhaps the dev team should consider Jump and High Jump giving Attack or Critical Hit Rate boost for a short duration instead of enmity down for other people :|

[Karbuncle]

I wonder if anyone remembers Earth Greaves exist?

Wonder why they don't just fix the useless duration on those in concert with the new "Stoneskin like" wyvern ability.

[Amador]

Because duration alone wouldn't do anything. They said "Stoneskin-like" so hopefully it won't be simply Stoneskin. Hopefully it'll be something substantial that will allow the Wyvern to live through devastating attacks/magic.

It's just sad that right now, the only way to cure your Wyvern is to either A: Spam Spirit Link, whenever it's up. Spam your Cure Salve II for Pets, and or use the newly released pet medicine, which doesn't stack. It's just rather silly. Especially for Dragoon since out set bonus depends on our Wyvern as does our use of Spirit Jump, Soul Jump and use of Breaths both healing and offensive.

Stoneskin period, or stoneskin boots with 3 min recast, 15 second use 300 damage absorb, won't do a thing to change the outcome.

[Karbuncle]

Stoneskin Boots can be used every 1 minute, and do not need to remain equipped.

Increasing the Duration of the boots to 5minutes~10 minutes would go a good way in helping Wyvern survivability.

plus when i used the phrase "in concert with", I meant The new ability and These boots if updated could work well together in keeping a wyvern alive.

[Leonlionheart]

I hope its just simply Scherzo/Migawari/Earthen Armor

And, if you know what Kingdom Hearts is,
maybe something along the lines of
Once More and Second Chance
(Ensures you retain 1 HP after taking damage from a combo) and (ensures you retain 1 HP after taking massive damage)

Along with a shorter recast on Spirit Link, or something else entirely that restores Wyvern HP.

Edit: Although Wyvern buffs are just diverging from what DRG really needs: More Attack OR (not and) more critical rate.

[Logandor]

So loving the idea of having a large Ember to fight along side with :D
I could see doing campaign fight and feel even more powerful with her easily intimidating presence following close behind as we charge into battle.

[Amador]

Why not more attack -and- critical hit rate? Multiple jobs got these, Dragoon just wasn't one of them. I'd say both would be a good adjustment for the job.

[Amador]

Earth Greaves<20/20 0:30/[1:00, 0:30]>

Wyvern Stoneskin

The Stoneskin effect granted to the wyvern will absorb 200 points of damage.

So... this is what you want to be better in conjunction with a new 'Ability' and such.

1: 200 points of damage
2: Inventory -1
3: Time it takes to activate the boots.

I'm not sure what you mean by duration, but 5-10 min stoneskin I'm assuming is what you mean. If so, this 200 damage stoneskin probably wouldn't even out live Dia II. Let alone a Thundaja, Thundaga IV, Blizzaja Blizzaga IV tier caliber of magic. Maybe if they added Wyvern "New Ability" boosting items that allowed it to be much better, maybe.

I'm crossing fingers hard for a Scherzo/Earthern Armor type effect. That would be perfect, would be very Spirit Link friendly. So who knows.

[Leonlionheart]

Why not more attack -and- critical hit rate? Multiple jobs got these, Dragoon just wasn't one of them. I'd say both would be a good adjustment for the job.

If I remember correctly, no one as of yet has a higher critical hit rate job trait other than lolfencer. Blood Rage and Impetus are the only ones, and I'm talking traits, not abilities.

I think that having both in excess would be overpowered on a lot of content. The only time DRG really doesn't shine is in high level end game play, in which case it needs a lot.

I think a good 10% would be fantastic for DRG, seeing as how WAR can cap crit rate in abyssea on Ukko's Fury anyway. So it's not like DRG is going to steal its thunder.

[Yugl]

In my experience with SE, the most we can expect from spirit link is the removal of HP taken, full recovery from spirit link, and stoneskin equaling the HP of the dragoon.



What am I a bard? I'm not looking to be a support class, I'm looking to compete with those WARs and SAMs after the content shifts away from Abyssea and the loss of Razed Ruins and the HNMs etc. who are a level much higher than I am with significant defense pulls all the SAMs and RNGs out of the woodwork. Things will be LESS balanced after this list of ideas they have are implemented which is frustrating to say the least.

Dragoon is more likely to compete with WAR as a support DD rather than as a main DD. Given what WAR's current capabilities and future capabilities, it is unlikely that SE will ever level the field. The best way to counter this issue when competing for a spot within the PT/Alliance is to offer total damage enhancements. Total damage enhancements aim to facilitate the damage of the group overall rather than specifically the player. For example, an AOE haste buff to complement the haste received from Spirit Surge, Wyvern-named gear, and Lancer's Pelerine. An existing example that has locked DRG's position in many scenarios has been Angon.

Quite frankly, if we can continue to receive bonuses such as Angon that facilitate total damage, it's foolish to compete for the top melee spot if our damage remains at the level of a heavy DD. Only one melee can occupy the top spot and the rest are second hand choices. Given the number of DDs in this game, it's smarter to focus on a melee position that will provide PT enhancements. As mentioned earlier, mages currently cripple the enemy's offensive, but only DNC has taken a serious step towards crippling the enemy's defensive capabilities. If DRG can latch onto a few of these techniques and add in a few AoE Buffs, our role is more secure than secondary DDs even if their raw output is greater because we'll provide enhancements to total damage.

[Karbuncle]

So... this is what you want to be better in conjunction with a new 'Ability' and such.

1: 200 points of damage
2: Inventory -1
3: Time it takes to activate the boots.


Depending on the Duration, You could activate it before a fight. During a fight its a different story, It'd be more like a "Pre-buff", Like when you pro/shell yourself before a fight. It would help your wyvern live a little big longer.


I'm not sure what you mean by duration, but 5-10 min stoneskin I'm assuming is what you mean.

The stoneskin from the boots only last 1 minute. I'm saying the boots are hindered that way, Extending the Duration to that of the spell would help. It fathoms me people complain about Wyverns dying then scoff off any way to help prevent it. Especially Items like Dawn Mulsum.


If so, this 200 damage stoneskin probably wouldn't even out live Dia II. Let alone a Thundaja, Thundaga IV, Blizzaja Blizzaga IV tier caliber of magic. Maybe if they added Wyvern "New Ability" boosting items that allowed it to be much better, maybe.

Except its 200HP your wyvern didnt have before, its the same reason people bother casting Shell, Protect, Phalanx, Utsusemi, Blink, Stoneskin, etc. They're all buffs that extend how long you can take a beating, Just like a 200HP stoneskin would.

I understand it doesnt sound like a lot of HP, but its 1 preventive measure. Plus you can remove the boots after using the effect.

They would really be like a Reraise Hairpin, Something you use before a fight as a preventive measure, not something you use during. It would just be a little extra boost to the Wyverns survivability. The only problem is their duration is too short. That was the improvement i asked for.


I'm crossing fingers hard for a Scherzo/Earthern Armor type effect. That would be perfect, would be very Spirit Link friendly. So who knows.

Of course that would be a good idea. My point was not that the new Ability should be a Stoneskin effect. In case you missed it it was

"Maybe with this new defensive ability, they can udpate Earth Greaves to be more useful/effective, I think both of them, the new ability, and the shoes, Might work well together in increasing our wyverns life span"

I'm asking they maybe buff Earth Greaves as a combined effort along with their already-in-motion plans to keep wyverns alive longer.

The biggest problem would be Inv-1 for some, But you could simply put them in your sack/Satchel after use. use them between fights. I'm not saying its a perfect solution, but like Dawn Mulsum, its another step in preventing wyvern death i think would work well with the new abilities.

Edit; Edited a lot.

[Leonlionheart]

I think AoE Haste is getting ahead of yourself, since Haste can already cap somewhat easily.

AoE attack bonus that can last longer than 45 seconds? K.

For instance: AoE Attack Bonus: Recast 5min, duration 3min. Boosts the user's Attack significantly, and his party's attack slightly. Slowly decaying the user's attack bonus over two minutes to the point of the party's attack bonus.

Or a similar ability regarding critical rate.

Has anyone ever mentioned Blood Rage is freaking over powered?

[Dauntless]

Last Earth greaves on my server was sold a month and a half ago.

[Yugl]

I'm going to agree with Amador on this one. The boots are a waste of inventory space to the extent 200HP starting HP won't save your wyvern. Most NMs either burn wyverns via one-hit TP moves or a consecutive series of a AoEs that outpace Spirit Link. You already said the boots are a pre-fight antique, so they won't solve the latter issue. The boots solve the former issue only if the NM's most powerful AoE to land is the initial AoE and that AoE occurs within the duration of the stoneskin. This is almost never the case since most NMs save their most powerful AoEs for near the end of the fight.



Except its 200HP your wyvern didnt have before, Except it prevents a chunk of the damage. By your logic why bother Casting Shell V? Protect? Stoneskin? Blink? Phalanx? Utsusemi? I mean you can still die with them on! why bother buffing yourself?


Not only is that item annoying to craft every 20th NM, but his logic is sound if you phrase it properly by replacing "can" with "will", which more accurately describes the wyvern with a 200HP bonus. There's no point in buffing if the outcome is the same. If those spells will one-hit the wyvern regardless of buffs, then what is the logic in applying those buffs exactly?


I think AoE Haste is getting ahead of yourself, since Haste can already cap somewhat easily.

For DRG without 2hr buffs? Since when? I wouldn't mind having the bonus on the DRG equal the bonus on PT members for an ability like Impetus/Blood rage (A critical hit type ability) if, in total, we contribute more to overall damage than another heavy DD.

I'm getting roughly 73% haste with March 2x + Haste + Gear + Hasso.

[Karbuncle]

Not only is that item annoying to craft every 20th NM, but his logic is sound if you phrase it properly by replacing "can" with "will", which more accurately describes the wyvern with a 200HP bonus. There's no point in buffing if the outcome is the same. If those spells will one-hit the wyvern regardless of buffs, then what is the logic in applying those buffs exactly?

I don't think I've met a mob yet that will 1shot a wyvern that a player should be meleeing on anyway... But i see your point in that subject, and it makes it a little clearer.

But i still think my point stands. Not every NM in the game is going to have a TP move that 1 shots your wyvern, for the 99% of the game that doesn't, These boots would go a long way to helping your wyvern survive.

Plus, on buying them, its really cheap to get synth'd for you, and the materials are easy to come across as well. They don't take long to get.

If i had the ability to grant my Wyvern Scherzo, and Stoneskin, I'd do both, not one or the other. I just don't understand the logic of "It'll eventually die so why bother". I still believe its the same logic behind buffing yourself before a fight, every bit counts.

The concern about 1 shotting is real, But theres still multiple mobs that do not 1 shot a pet where a stoneskin would be a decent preventative measure. Plus, From the sounds of "Only spirit link cures our pets" I don't think some people even know that Dawn Mulsum exists :X

BTW, If its not clear I'm admitting earth greaves suck right now, Its the reason they aren't sold ever, but if they were buffed out of useless there would be market for them. Same as when Dawn Mulsum was discovered.

My point is still, If they buffed Earth Greaves (I specifically mention Duration) it would be another step in preventing wyvern death, and i think it would. I'm not implying its all that needs to be done, I'm not implying it makes your wyvern immune. I'm saying it would be another small step to help the problem

[Amador]

Depending on the Duration, You could activate it before a fight. During a fight its a different story, It'd be more like a "Pre-buff", Like when you pro/shell yourself before a fight. It would help your wyvern live a little big longer.

Except its 200HP your wyvern didnt have before, its the same reason people bother casting Shell, Protect, Phalanx, Utsusemi, Blink, Stoneskin, etc. They're all buffs that extend how long you can take a beating, Just like a 200HP stoneskin would.

I understand it doesnt sound like a lot of HP, but its 1 preventive measure. Plus you can remove the boots after using the effect.

They would really be like a Reraise Hairpin, Something you use before a fight as a preventive measure, not something you use during. It would just be a little extra boost to the Wyverns survivability. The only problem is their duration is too short. That was the improvement i asked for.


Thing is, everything else you just mentioned is infinitely more useful than a 200 damage stoneskin. There's nothing you'll fight other than EP that won't break through that 200, regardless. In your prior statement you said that's 200 HP your wyvern didn't have before. It wouldn't matter. Those spells one shot our Wyverns outside of Abyssea, which is why I mentioned them.

I'm sure better items will come in time, but hoping they revise something like Earth Greaves is just wishful thinking. They should just stick to abilities traits, passive traits that affect our wyverns and or the ability to have our wyverns cure themselves with their own Healing Breath.

As far as 'over powering' Dragoon. That's just something you can't do. They haven't given the job enough to even consider this simply by adding an Attack Boost, and Crit Boost. If anything, they over powered Warrior with what they're giving them. 100% Crit hit ability coming up, Blood Rage. Shall I go on? They cater to certain jobs, mainly the jobs played by a vast majority.

They can't over power something they have never catered to.

AoE abilties that increase attack or haste would be a bit much, and probably be low durations like Warcry or Blood Rage. Dragoon needs something for it's own caliber perhaps it's own set of stances, that define it's job even more. Something that can take it away from the binds of /SAM.

Dragoon isn't the only job SE hasn't catered to, there are others that are in desperate need for revision that are still waiting.

[Leonlionheart]

For DRG without 2hr buffs? Since when? I wouldn't mind having the bonus on the DRG equal the bonus on PT members for an ability like Impetus/Blood rage if, in total, we contribute more to overall damage than another heavy DD.

Haste: 14.65%
Gear: 25%
Hasso: 9.96%
=
49.61%

March1+3: 12.31 (Assuming March+1 = +1000/1082 haste)
March2+3: 15.43 (Assuming March+1 = +1000/1082 haste)
=
27.74% + 49.61% = 77.35% (Same as WAR)

Ok. It's not cap.

Edit: Spirit Surge will only get you to 78.71%.

[Karbuncle]

An Ability for Wyverns to cure themselves with Healing Breath would be nice, but it might cause problems to a DRG soloing, could cause a death.

But i like the sound of it.

Also, i can admit wanting Earth Greaves to not suck is wishful thinking. There were just so many items that could have been semi-useful if they werent so terribly thought out. that was one of them...

Edit: Also i can't understand some of the hostility from some of you, Its not like I'm here saying DRG doesnt need an Update, I was just pointing out an Item, That if "fixed" could help with wyvern survivability.

[Leonlionheart]

An Ability for Wyverns to cure themselves with Healing Breath would be nice, but it might cause problems to a DRG soloing, could cause a death.

But i like the sound of it.

Also, i can admit wanting Earth Greaves to not suck is wishful thinking. There were just so many items that could have been semi-useful if they werent so terribly thought out. that was one of them...

Edit: Also i can't understand some of the hostility from some of you, Its not like I'm here saying DRG doesnt need an Update, I was just pointing out an Item, That if "fixed" could help with wyvern survivability.

Damnit Karbuncle stop picking fights

[Amador]

If that was part of the update, I could do without it.

Resorting to an item that would have a delay, of give or take 10 seconds to cast, probably 5 to allow you to use an ability after would really be horrible. A waste of time, and a waste of potential FF updates. :|

[OMEGA_HACK]

Something I made for DRG's stances in the DRG forum:




Also, I don't like the idea of more gear to give the Wyvern added effects...I'm tired of being forced to sacrifice slot space (when other jobs just get the damn abilities forever) this is why I don't really care for those Wyvern: Stoneskin boots, and more than likely if they make the Ability a stoneskin effect the boots won't stack (as no stoneskin effects do currently)

And to further the note on Stoneskin effect, it will more than likely be 300-350 dmg absorbed, does anyone look at their logs when a Wyvern takes damage from a high tier elemental spell/ability from a NM? You can assume if you get hit for 600 the tack an extra 300 dmg and that is what your Wyvern is taking, and the Wyvern has what, 990HP @75 (not sure what its at @90 but I'm sure its no more than 1300 or so and that I feel is being a generous increase).

More than likely one of the two things will be problems with this "Stoneskin Ability" it will have a 3min recast OR it will sacrifice your own HP to give your Wyvern a Stoneskin effect and share a recast timer with Spirit Link (they will name it Soul Link I am sure...)

Problem with that is: 3min is a long time a NM is going to use that devastating attack again before that 3min recast is back up, also if you have to lose HP to do it, healers are not going to want us in the party, I know it pisses Healers off already when I Spirit Link (since the ratios for PChp <-> Whp is severely skewed out of our favors)

Honestly the ONLY way to make the Wyvern live longer (and reps PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE forward this to those devs, is to give Wyverns -damage (all types) taken traits; silly stoneskin effects are a novelty at best, and please don't make that little Wyvern grow in size if it means sacrificing REAL job improvement as this has happened in the past, note my previous post on details)

Well this post as gone on for long enough, I'll end it here although I could say more on the matter.

[Karbuncle]

If that was part of the update, I could do without it.

Resorting to an item that would have a delay, of give or take 10 seconds to cast, probably 5 to allow you to use an ability after would really be horrible. A waste of time, and a waste of potential FF updates. :|

They could throw it in the mini updates :O? Fix a bunch of crappy old items!

[Amador]

Those stances would be horrendous. Absolutely, just no. God no, please no.

I love how many Dragoons like playing the role of "Back up DD", instead of taking head charge and being one of the "Main DD". I personally enjoy -tanking- nms, and I am a main dd in my party always. The idea of switching into a stance, and taking +10% Critical Hit Damage is just evil. I would cry, and honestly it would ruin the job for me for what it is.

Look at Samurai, what sacrifices do they make? Spell Casting +50%! Oh no, they wept. Then they gained you know, +10% Ability, +15 STR or whatever, and other stuff.

I'd say stances implemented while they should be defensive and offensive, should not have a ton of negative effects. As I said, check SAM.

[Leonlionheart]

I think they could have some sort of stance, maybe reduce the cooldown of jumps for one, reduce the cooldown of restoring/smiting breath and boost the potency for the other.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Well when I made that post I was trying not to be instantly flamed for making abilities that were "too powerful and would make them the top tier DD without competition" so I threw in negative effects, the effects could obviously be reworked instead of just shooting them down (as that is just the easy way out and a preferred choice by some it would seem). Also some of the negative effects could just be down right dropped off the list as +10% Crit damage taken does see a little extreme in hindsight.

[Leonlionheart]

Well when I made that post I was trying not to be instantly flamed for making abilities that were "too powerful and would make them the top tier DD without competition" so I threw in negative effects, the effects could obviously be reworked instead of just shooting them down (as that is just the easy way out and a preferred choice by some it would seem). Also some of the negative effects could just be down right dropped off the list as +10% Crit damage taken does see a little extreme in hindsight.

Someone will always be able to pick something out of your post and make you look bad

internet

[Yugl]

Haste: 14.65%
Gear: 25%
Hasso: 9.96%
=
49.61%

March1+3: 12.31 (Assuming March+1 = +1000/1082 haste)
March2+3: 15.43 (Assuming March+1 = +1000/1082 haste)
=
27.74% + 49.61% = 77.35% (Same as WAR)

Ok. It's not cap.

Edit: Spirit Surge will only get you to 78.71%.

And interestingly enough, an AoE haste granting 15% haste (Looks like 13-14% at minimum?) will solve the attack problem you mentioned by allowing for sub WAR.


Those stances would be horrendous. Absolutely, just no. God no, please no.

And this.

[Amador]

Think he meant more along the lines of having nothing but positive effects without any consequences would lead to being flamed.

However, those consequences in this case seem down right sadistic. I'd say if Dragoon did get stances they should be penalized as Samurai was. Yet even then, can it even be called a penalty to have your magic recast increased by 50% on a job like Samurai? I don't really think so. If anything that would really affect DRG/MAGE combinations.

Furthermore, I'd be willing to sacrifice evasion since it's low enough as is on anything that would matter. Though I don't think that's a direction I see SE taking DRG.

They seem interested in prolonging defensive traits, such as our Critical Defense Bonus trait.

I'd say, a stance much like Hasso although different would be good.

[Leonlionheart]

And interestingly enough, an AoE haste granting 15% haste (Looks like 13-14% at minimum?) will solve the attack problem you mentioned by allowing for sub WAR.

WOOOOOAH THERE...

Haste cap is 80% broseph.

STILL won't allow sub war, since SAM is the only one with native STP. Going from 6hit to 7hit is a problem.

[Amador]

It's not just about Haste and a 5-6 Hit either. It's about the survival that /SAM offers too.

Third Eye + Seigan is very valuable, and can't be replaced easily regardless of another option. The only way you could consider subbing /WAR is if A: You maintain a 5-6 hit, and are a responsible non-MP Sponge DD wherever you go.

It's no Myth that /WAR is POWERFUL. It's just that in the end, Berserk 10% DA and Warcry can't compete with the safety of Seigan/Third Eye. It's not about Hasso.

[Seha]

While we really want to make is possible to ride wyverns and have them grow in size, unfortunately system wise this is difficult. (It MIGHT be possible to make them bigger though...)Om nom nom.

[Leonlionheart]

It's not just about Haste and a 5-6 Hit either. It's about the survival that /SAM offers too.

Third Eye + Seigan is very valuable, and can't be replaced easily regardless of another option. The only way you could consider subbing /WAR is if A: You maintain a 5-6 hit, and are a responsible non-MP Sponge DD wherever you go.

It's no Myth that /WAR is POWERFUL. It's just that in the end, Berserk 10% DA and Warcry can't compete with the safety of Seigan/Third Eye. It's not about Hasso.

Ok, well I'm not sure about actual parses, but with March+haste+hasso, you will without a doubt do more damage than /WAR possibly could

[Dauntless]

Ok, well I'm not sure about actual parses, but with March+haste+hasso, you will without a doubt do more damage than /WAR possibly could

Parsed myself against a bud of mine who was using lolGungnir back in a bird party @75 cap. I was /sam he was /war, and I outparsed him fairly well.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Ability Name: Spirit Scout (Stance 1):
Flavor Text: Sends your Wyvern high into the sky to keep a watch out for the Dragoon.
Effects: While under this stance the Wyvern disappears from combat (is still considered out though), not being able to be attacked from any damage nor can it attack any target. Dragoon gains the ability of Wide Scan III, gains an increase to defensive stats: Vitality+10, Agility+10, Defense+45, Magical Defense+15, Enemy Critical Hit Rate-15%, Parry+25. CANNOT use Breath Commands while under this stance.
Duration: 2 hours
Recast: 3 minutes

I don't think this stance is really too bad and I think its a fair trade off, if anything you could use it as a "oh crap get that Wyvern out of the damage" and then switch to another stance after the spell/ability goes off

Ability Name:Spirit Bond (Stance 2)
Flavor Text: The Wyvern and Dragoon share their strengths and weaknesses.
Effects: Grants the Dragoon an increase to offensive stats: Strength+10, Dexterity+5, Attack+25, Critical Hit Damage+15%, Store TP+30 while decreasing their defensive stats: Vitality-10, Agility-10, Defense-25. Grants the Wyvern an increase to offensive stats: Attack+30, Accuracy+30, Critical Hit Rate+10%, Haste+15%.
Duration: 2 hours
Recast: 3 minutes

Removed the magic defense decrease as well as the enemy crit hit rate penalty, that should make it more on par with Hasso/Siegan stances in terms of the trade off, increased the Crit damage by +5%, took out the accuracy buff and replaced with store TP+

Ability Name: Spirit Breath (Stance 3)
Flavor Text: The Dragoon focuses his strengths within the Wyvern to increase survivability.
Effects: Grants the Wyvern with various beneficial stat increases: Wyvern HP+500, Healing Breath Potency+10%, Elemental Breath Potency+10%, Wyvern Damage Taken-30, Breath Recast-10. Grants the Dragoon with various stat alterations: HP-250, Spell cast/recast+50%.
Duration: 2 hours
Recast: 3 minutes

Took out the "slow" effect that the Dragoon would suffer from, as that seems too severe of a penalty for a stance as well as took out the Wyvern Def/mdef since it would be getting a straight -damage taken effect, and increased the HB pot by +5%, also changed the penalties for drg to be less severe

What about those stance revisions? While I would love to be the omg pwned you job I would rather have a realistic suggestion that "might" be considered.

[Amador]

That would be a rough one, Hasso is give or take 9.?% Haste /WAR would provide +10% DA and +150~ attack give or take. During Berserk it's be interesting to see if 9% Haste is worth 150 attack, and 10% DA. If the attack is needed and pushes your damage up, I figure the ATK would win out.

But yes, in all zergs /SAM is amazing. If you're not taking of course. It's just common knowledge how strong /WAR Drakesbanes are, and jumps with that substantial boost.

In the end though, /SAM is just too valuable to pass up.

[OMEGA_HACK]

yeah /sam is too valuable and imo kind of sad, I wish I could use other subjobs (which is why I threw in the STP in those stance revisions to maybe sway away from /sam dependence).

[Dauntless]

That would be a rough one, Hasso is give or take 9.?% Haste /WAR would provide +10% DA and +150~ attack give or take. During Berserk it's be interesting to see if 9% Haste is worth 150 attack, and 10% DA. If the attack is needed and pushes your damage up, I figure the ATK would win out.

But yes, in all zergs /SAM is amazing. If you're not taking of course. It's just common knowledge how strong /WAR Drakesbanes are, and jumps with that substantial boost.

In the end though, /SAM is just too valuable to pass up.

Well this is factoring out STP and Meditate.

[Amador]

You get an A for Effort Hack :D

Decent Ideas like I said, just would require tons of balancing and revising.

[Amador]

No it's considering STP only, for a 5-6 hit. It's not in regards to meditate though. It's just a flat: 9% haste vs 150 attack 10% da consideration only. We all know /SAM works best, not trying to dig into that. Don't mind it :|

[Leonlionheart]

Parsed myself against a bud of mine who was using lolGungnir back in a bird party @75 cap. I was /sam he was /war, and I outparsed him fairly well.

Note to the population of FFXI: DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE HASTE. IT IS, BY FAR THE BEST STAT YOU COULD EVER HAVE.

[Leonlionheart]

No it's considering STP only, for a 5-6 hit. It's not in regards to meditate though. It's just a flat: 9% haste vs 150 attack 10% da consideration only. We all know /SAM works best, not trying to dig into that. Don't mind it :|

Closer to 10% than 9%

[Leonlionheart]

@Omega_Hack's stances:

STP+30 would require 22 additional STP in gear for 5 hit, and if you continue to sub /sam only 44 for a 4hit (VERY possible). Way too much. 15 would be strong, 10 would be more reasonable. Critical Hit Damage should only be at most +10%.

The defensive stats are a bit overpowering too, though not nearly as much as STP+30...

Edit: Triple post, don't know why i didn't just edit one post... my bad :[

[Yugl]

Ok, well I'm not sure about actual parses, but with March+haste+hasso, you will without a doubt do more damage than /WAR possibly could

Good point! Lets you change a song though. Even if that's not the case, AoE buffs and enfeeblement were the general idea, not necessarily haste.

[azjazo]

Diabolos sized wyverns with diferent texture colors depending on subjob, {yes, please}

[Dauntless]

I'm fine with changing how Wyverns look but I feel if they were made bigger they'd just be more of a pain, obstructing my vision and getting in my way in small spaces and such.

[Aequis]

SE actually replied? But not on the DRG forum itself, where most of us discuss changes. *sigh*

Would absolutely love for them to concentrate on what our job actually needs, and not just for them to make wyverns bigger. That is most certainly something that we don't need.

[xbobx]

Stoneskin for wyvern is just stupid. They should have something like pup where you can recall it weakened. Stoneskin does not do anything.
the one thing I have always wanted for dragoon was the wyvern raised so it doesn't keep impeding your movement. Is your wyvern scared of heights?

[Amador]

This is why the Dragoon community sometimes get's pretty emotes versus useful abilities. Because half of the community wants more colors, bigger wyverns, and of course. They want to ride them.

It's not a flat stoneskin ability, it's stoneskin-like. So we've yet to see what it is they have to offer the job for that. As far as summoning a weakened Wyvern, that is a terrible idea. They die to everything as is already at full hp, let alone half.

[Seha]

Stout servant would be a good improvement for starters.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Amador the stoneskin-like ability probably means you sacrifice your HP to give the Wyvern the stoneskin effect.

And since they are on this "Spirit > Soul" progression thing, I can only imagine it being called Soul Link and share the same recast timer as Spirit Link. In turn making another useless ability.

[Leonlionheart]

Damnit guys if you keep telling SE you want bigger wyverns you know what you'll get?

Bigger Wyverns.

You know what you won't get? Everything else.

Stop asking for aesthetic updates when the job needs attack or critical rate so you can play it on HNM and high end content!

[OMEGA_HACK]

I agree, let's just drop the "O.M.G. bigger wyvern?! hell yahz!" mentality, we need so many OTHER IMPORTANT updates that lolaesthetics...

I just have a feeling that is all DRG is gonna get in the next update and then I will rage on these forums to all these people who wanted that change so badly as DRG gets bumped down to the loldrk level of melee. D:>

[Seha]

You know that fanservice doesn't hurt guys, don't you?
If they add it, it means it's an easy thing, so it doesn't take away time from the important stuff. Stop crying, it's just a fanservice.

[Leonlionheart]

You know that fanservice doesn't hurt guys, don't you?
If they add it, it means it's an easy thing, so it doesn't take away time from the important stuff. Stop crying, it's just a fanservice.

Because it hasn't happened before where they added "Fan service" and NOTHING else?

MMMM HMMMMM I bet you use your wyvern emotes ALL THE TIME.

[Seha]

You don't even make sense in your replies.

[Dauntless]

You don't even make sense in your replies.

It makes perfect sense. There was once an update where every other job got actual updates and what did DRG get? Cool new buffs? An awesome new job trait? Nah, we got wyvern emotes.

We're not trying to see that catastrophe happen again.

[Seha]

MMMM HMMMMM I bet you use your wyvern emotes ALL THE TIME.This makes no sense at all.

[Coldbrand]

SE thinks giving everyone else buffs vicariously though us is the same as giving us something considering that's what all the JAs and new features to existing ones do is help other people. But hey, pumping up BLMs even further asumming the wyvern even uses an element they're casting is almost the same as 1.25x damage on WAR, right?

[Amador]

Assuming the Dev team does take player considerations, and browse these threads to see, and consider what the player base wants and needs then people who highly vote for emotes/graphic changes, usually get that and that's all.

I'd be sad. The reason they gave DRG these emotes however, was due to PUP emotes in which case everyone thought they were adorable and a few Dragoon thought it'd be cute.

This is basically our chance to try to steer that direction into: Hey, wait a minute. You're beefing everyone elses melee capabilities to the highest, while you're leaving us behind with minimal capabilities.

[Leonlionheart]

This makes no sense at all.

Sarcasm must fail you...

[Seha]

Sarcasm is witty, that was just stupid.

[Leonlionheart]

Sarcasm is witty, that was just stupid.

Do you use Wyvern Emotes often?

Do they help you at all?

[Dauntless]

Do you use Wyvern Emotes often?

Do they help you at all?

Of course they help! That's the fix DRG needs! MORE WYVERN EMOTES!

[Leonlionheart]

/sigh at the attitude of so many players.

CASUALS MAN! casuals..

[Seha]

Again, you just make no sense. Even answering you would be silly.

[Leonlionheart]

Again, you just make no sense. Even answering you would be silly.

lol what is this...

I'm making fun of casual players who care more about aesthetics (Like the cool kids who wear NQ af3) than about gameplay

[OMEGA_HACK]

Seha, I don't know how long you've played the game or how long you've had DRG leveled up but by you saying "It doesn't make sense" when we say "No to the bigger Wyvern pleas" just answers the fact that you haven't been a DRG (if you are at all, I'm not sure and frankly I mean no offense) for a long time.

And yes, in the past there was an update (in particular an ALL JOBS UPDATE); while some jobs didn't get all the glam they still received something beneficial towards making the job better in party/solo; Dragoon on the other hand received WYVERN EMOTES and that was it, nothing else. It was because people like you said over and over and over and over about how gaga they would be if the Wyvern could mimic the puppet's emotes...and it happened, and all the REAL dragoons felt it was a complete insult to the job as there were many other ideas that were being offered at the time (this was all before these official forums were released) that could have replaced the 'update' SE gave the job.

So in short, yeah Dragoons should all feel upset when the only thing a person has to offer is "Yay bigger Wyvern! /glee" without having anything to say other than they feel DRG only needs an aesthetic update. :(

[Logandor]

I understand we need better buffs and stuff like that I really do, but in all truth begging on hands and knees the develop team won't stop and think "hmm...why is dragoon becoming the only job left behind on the goods like buffs, ect." instead they just go "oh sense people still play the job, *tosses a cookie (something not really useful but fun in our down time)*" and goes back to work on other jobs. I get that and I see it, hell it's one reason why I'm thinking of hanging up drg till something useful comes to us. I seriously love dragoon, in fact it was my very first 90 job and I took great pride leveling it the entire way. When do you guys seriously think the develop team will actually look, read, listen, and think about us not as a last place job but as one of the best jobs out there? I had to ask because it seems like instead of demanding from the develop team to look and read you guys want to attack each other over simple things. I am just glad they didn't go "oh dragoon is doing fine, they don't need anything this update" and leave us out on anything and that includes the cookie. I do apologize now if it seemed like I was attacking anyone but I just think we need to focus on getting the development team's attention instead of going off on each other---Dragoons unite!

P.S. in short don't sweat the small stuff and lets unite and get the development team's attention to actually pay attention to us.

[Seha]

You misunderstood what I was saying. Nevermind.

[Thonuwan]

Logandor, if you love DRG that much, why would you give it up just because the Dev Team isn't (seemingly) looking our way as much as some other jobs? I look forward to every post about upcoming job updates just to see if DRG will get anything new, but I won't stop playing it if it doesn't. Perhaps I haven't been playing as long as you and haven't seen a history of being ignored?

[Dauntless]

Logandor, if you love DRG that much, why would you give it up just because the Dev Team isn't (seemingly) looking our way as much as some other jobs? I look forward to every post about upcoming job updates just to see if DRG will get anything new, but I won't stop playing it if it doesn't. Perhaps I haven't been playing as long as you and haven't seen a history of being ignored?

Indeed. DRG isn't in nearly bad enough shape right now to warrant quitting it. If we were talking DRK, sure, but my gimp full perle DRG outdamages pimped out DRKs these days.

[Yugl]

In Abyssea *

[Dauntless]

In Abyssea *

In and out, unfortunately.

Not saying DRG doesn't need an update, but it's not bad enough to warrant quitting.

[Yugl]

In and out, unfortunately.

Not saying DRG doesn't need an update, but it's not bad enough to warrant quitting.

You're not playing with "pimped DRKs" then.

[Leonlionheart]

You're not playing with "pimped DRKs" then.

I've played with the pimpest of DRKs, DRG still seems to out do them.

[Dauntless]

I've played with the pimpest of DRKs, DRG still seems to out do them.

This. lolignorance

[OMEGA_HACK]

I'm sure its odd to parse with a weapon that has instant KO..?

[Leonlionheart]

Why would I call Twilight Scythe users the pimpest of DRKs?

Caladbolg or go home, srsly.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Don't know, don't play DRK, and rarely seem them (pre- and post- abyssea) anyway

[Dauntless]

Why would I call Twilight Scythe users the pimpest of DRKs?

Caladbolg or go home, srsly.

This again.

[Yugl]

I've played with the pimpest of DRKs, DRG still seems to out do them.

Gimp DRGs? That's the topic; not a well geared DRG.

[Dauntless]

Gimp DRGs? That's the topic; not a well geared DRG.

Would've parsed myself against a DRK in my next event but I've already cancelled my account but trust me, DRK numbers make me want to cry. And I ain't biased, because I would LOVE for DRKs to out-DD DRGs but the sad fact is that they simply can't.

DRG needs a buff, DRK needs a much bigger buff.

[Amador]

This thread derailed quite a bit. Dragoon's, stop picking on the Dark Knights.

Dark Knight right now, both in and out of Abyssea still requires a lot of work. It's currently being readjusted so that it can be a better job all around. It hasn't obtained any major updates to make it a very devastating job.

This thread should focus on what type of boosts Dragoon requires, what would be good ideas in a full spectrum area all around.

2 Hour Revising? Magical Haste -> Ability Haste -> Making full use of Jump High Jump Super Jump Spirit Jump and Soul Jump during 2hr without Jump High Jump affecting the recast of Spirit and Soul Jump. Added Effects to Spirit and Soul Jump to coincide with Spirit Surge.

Wyvern Revising, beefing our little guy making him stronger, faster, better! Earthern Armor/Scherzo lines of defense as an ability or basic triat.

Wyvern Breaths, adding Light and Darkness Elemental Breaths that Trigger during "Light or Darkness Skill Chains"?

Adding potentially enfeebling abilities/strikes to Wyvern's hits/Breaths not limited to Elemental Defense Down.

Addition for new job traits, abilities that enhance needed status effects!

Dragoon Stances!?

I mean, this thread can go places, if the general public in here cares to voice out reasonable additions to the job.

Team Work!

[Logandor]

Honestly never have teamed up with a drk in aby :/ the reason I have been considering quitting drg was multiple things. If we could just be brought up to an even level in aby, atmas, gear, whatever, even job traits I would most likely re-pull the job out and try my luck on it. Like when the new update comes out with level cap increase I will bring her back out to repimp her for 99 first over any of my other 90s. I am not saying this is the same for all servers about parties or saying I am lousy. I am decent on dragoon, not perfect, but put me up against some mobs outside aby and that's when I feel dragoon rains and shines supreme. This game was not designed for soloers that I do know and I fully believe to this day to be true but when you have to because no one wants to team up on mobs even with the gear/items being free lot except for certain seals here and there you start to feel outta place referring to offering gil and lots of it or (in my instance my service of whm to whatever mob they want for hours on end just for one or two seals.) Probably because I am a nice person but very few instances when a dragoon can sit in jeuno and do shouts for hand seals, body seals, leg seals, feet seals, or head seals help and actually get help. Now enough about my reasons because other then aby I have nothing to complain on with it.
What I would like to see is some job traits added though to put us on a little bit of level ground with others.
Job Traits: (names can be changed for these later)
Emergency Evasion: if your character drops below 40% health your evasion increases by 50% and your regen you automatically have increases how much hp you recieve with +5% tic increase instead of it's current. This gives the dragoon an advantage that if they are in a sticky situation to move out of it and hopefully get in range of a healer or escape the pending death by mass dance/heals. If equipped with eva atmas this stacks on top of it.This trait stays in effect till hp recovers to 75%.
Emergency Attack: hp drops below 40% our attack increases by 50% untill hp is back at 75%. This does stack with the atmas just like the other.
Wyvern traits:
Emergency breath: if wyvern's hp hits below 40% she cast healing breath III on her self, this will not interrupt or interfere with other breaths caused by weapon skilling or forced breaths. It will also allow the dragoon to spirit link without worry that it will be too late to save their little comrade.

Other then that I can't really complain but I felt like tossing my two cents out there as ideas. Sense these are traits they won't take up needed macro slots or give us insane list of j.a. to have to scroll through. I feel they would put us up on a decent level with the other jobs and yes I do know we have atmas and gear to help with it already but with these little add-ons I would gladly pull my dragoon out of retirement for a good old aby party any day. ^.^ Outside aby I use the job a ton it's only inside aby I've had to hang up the job.

[Ophannus]

I wish there was a way to inhibit a Wyvern from using Elemental Breaths after your WS so you can use Spirit Link's TP transfer easier to use. Maybe make it a pet command?

Vanguard
Level 1
Wyvern's breath potency and accuracy is enhanced, but defense is lowered

In this state breath potency is enhanced but they take 25% more damage from physical/magical sources.

Rearguard
Level 1
Wyvern will not use breaths regularly and will take reduced damage.

In this state, the wyvern won't use Healing Breath from a spell or Attack breaths from a WS but will still use them via Restoring/Smiting Breaths. In addition the wyvern will suffer 25% less damage from physical and magical sources.

This would be good for things like HNM or Battlefields where Wyvern breaths already suck in terms of damage while letting the wyvern build up TP without it being expended on said weak breaths. This in turn would let the DRG spirit link and take 50% of their TP store(which I imagine could be pretty high on long fights) giving the DRG a TP battery not unlike an instant Meditate every 3 minutes(only giving you 150ish TP assuming the wyvern can keep up 300% TP every 180 seconds)

Also I understand that SE said they wish to rebalance combat skills for jobs in the future. If that's the case can DRG get a B+ in evasion like MNK and SAM? The reason is, SAM already has tools to reduce damage but DRG barely has any. DRGs are also nimble and jump super high yet our evasion skill is awful. We also tend to(well in FFXI's earlier days) wear lighter armor than SAM. ALternatively, give us a higher parrying skill. Historically, Samurai did not parry with their blades. Katanas make super poor tools for absorbing the shock of another blade, wheres broad swords were better tempered for this. Additionally a lance, being a pole of solid metal can parry a lot easier. Also give DRG an A- in Staves and let us use Exclusive Staff weapon skills. A staff is exactly like a polearm, without the point. This will offset the piercing penalty DRG suffers on things like Skeletons.

I think DRG could benefit from stances too Amador(btw this is Seraphus, hii!) but I feel they won't give them to us since our Wyvern is a cheap cop out reason to not give DRG nice things that other melee have(like damage mitigation and self enhancing buffs i.e berser/hasso/yonin). I'd like to see some self buffing abilities though:

Fervor: "Increases attack speed of players in an area of effect." Basically a Haste version of Blood Rage/Warcry/Rampart. For 30-45 seconds, it grants a 10-15% JA haste to players in range.

Job Trait: Rending Attack. "Attacks occasionally ignore defense". This will be DRG's Zanshin/Double Attack/Triple Attack/Kick Attacks-type trait. 5-10% proc rate, can proc on WS and Jumps too. When it procs, a large portion of defense is ignored for that hit.

Wyrm Charge: Next attack ignores defense. Basically a JA that forces Rending Attack to activate on the next attack not unlike Warrior's Charge/Assassin's Charge.

Siege: Increases attack speed but weakens Wyvern attack.
A weaker version of Berserk, more like Last Resort, 3 min duration

[Coldbrand]

A Dragoon should never be using anything but a lance in my opinion.

[Ophannus]

Situational. Every job should have at least one other weapon with a high skill. PLDs have club and GS, DRK has GS, WHM has Staff, DNC has sword and h2h, THF has sword, BLU has club. DRG using staff, like I said, could be good for Cataclysm or for when fighting something weak to blunt and strong to piercing like Skellies

[Karbuncle]

I wouldn't Consider h2h/sword on DNC/THF "High Skills", THF Has D Sword, and DNC has D Sword and D h2h.

While i do agree with the basic principle of each job having ~2 fallback skills, DNC and THF got f*cked hard there.

[Ophannus]

Meh DNC/THF can dual wield and they both have Jesus evasion and can solo 90% of FFXI.

[Seha]

Abyssea isn't 90% of FFXI.

That being said, go on.

[Yugl]

The following are ideas that don't necessarily reflect the best changes, but most accurately reflect changes SE would approve

Stances
Defensive (Probably a flat DT enhancement) + Rapid enmity build per action (Wyvern: Locks Offensive Breaths + Gains Potent Regen)
Offensive (Partial ignore defense/Flat cratio boost + Bypass ACC cap while under this effect) + Enmity rapid enmity decay/suppressed enmity generation (Wyvern: Locks Healing Breaths + Gains Regain)

Wyvern
Flat DT traits
Reduced spirit link recast + Stoneskin based on current HP
*Inc boooo* Ability for the wyvern to steal enemy's TP
Note: SE needs to fix the wyvern before looking at melee capabilities since they have a habit of tying DRG's abilities to the wyvern

Stand-alone abilities
Gain stoneskin based on wyvern's HP (Assuming they fix wyvern survivability)
Impart a flash type effect on the mob (Complements DRG's lightning property; maybe use Shin no Kaminari for the name as that one JP suggested)
AoE short duration critical hit rate enhancement (Haste would be a bad idea considering the duration; most of those abilities are reserved for spike damage)
10% Defense reduction ability (Overwritten by Angon)
*Inc booo* JA to gain Wyvern's base damage
Steal Wyvern's TP on the next WS as TP Bonus and cancels the next breath attack (Short recast)
AoE 10% bonus to WSC% of next WS/AoE fTP bonus
Aftermath on Jumps? Haste/Critical hit rate boost (Take your pick)
JA Attack or STR+DEX bonus based on number of PT members (Maybe even grant to PT members)


Traits
Consolidate Conserve TP's TP return (Perhaps 19TP?)
5% Haste trait/Randomized haste bonus each hit

[Reiterpallasch]

Meh DNC/THF can dual wield and they both have Jesus evasion and can solo 90% of FFXI.
Last I checked Jesus didn't have the best eva since he couldn't dodge a handful of nails and some wood. Even gimps can get apoc atma though so at least he had that going for him.

[Yugl]

Your signature is amazing.

[Urteil]

I heard DRK in this thread, but I'll be the bigger man, and GTFO.




Shame on you DRG's.

For shame, DOTH HAVE SO MUCH, YET ACKNOWLEDGE SO LITTLE.

[AoiX]

Here some ideas I got after reading this thread.

Jumps:

All jumps have at the moment one thing in common: They all attack from above. How about adding jumps that don't attack from above, like a jump that goes over the enemy and pierces it from behind? This way Jumps that go behind the target can have other kind of effects or even reset hate on mobs or confuse enemies for a few seconds.

Wyverns

Wyverns have an advantage of mastering breath attacks. How about using this to their advantage and after a breath attack granting them the effect of En-Breath for a limited time. This could also be linked with Deep Breathing where the Wyvern has a powerful breath attack and it's effect ends with the en-breath effect.

Polearms

Dragoons are not just masters of Jumps and Wyverns, they also excel in Polearm mastery. Taking this into account how about adding different job abilities that take advantage of what a polearm can do. Example: Pierce Enemy makes the target bleed giving a damage over time attack and maybe add a gravity effect on the target. Something similar to Shield Bash, Weapon Bash but unique to the Polearm class and of course Dragoon.

Just some ideas, hope they are interesting.

[Camate]

Dear Dragoons,

I’m happy to inform you that your wyverns will take less damage and will be harder to KO in the next version update.

Sincerely,
Camate

[Yugl]

Ember will be pleased to hear he can go SSJ.

[Coldbrand]

Great news, any word on camlann's torment, unlinking jumps, adding new haste/stp gear, or lancet?

Also, sounds like you dropped the idea of it being a JA which is very nice considering our high delay means any and all utility JA hamper our DPS much worse than say a thief or ninja etc.

[Camate]

Actually, it will be in the form of an ability and a job trait:

-Steady Wing Lv95
Puts up a barrier that nullifies damage dealt to your wyvern for a period of time

-Adding wyvern job trait “Reduced damage taken”

We will continue to look into adjustments for Jump and breath attacks for a future version update.

[LancerLeon]

Actually, it will be in the form of an ability and a job trait:

-Steady Wing Lv95
Puts up a barrier that nullifies damage dealt to your wyvern for a period of time

-Adding wyvern job trait “Reduced damage taken”

We will continue to look into adjustments for Jump and breath attacks for a future version update.

That's just awsome. Thank you Camate, for brighting up my day.

[Coldbrand]

Fair enough, here's hoping the devs look at working on camlann's torment for this patch.

[Logandor]

That sounds great :D

[Deadvinta]

I think this is the first official named content we've seen.

[Ophannus]

I hope the Devs make DRG a 'specialist' at Stout Servant and give us many more tiers of the damage reducing trait than BST/PUP/SMN. This is important because BST pets, Automatons and Avatars are already, without the Stout Servant Traits, MANY, MANY times more durable than a Wyvern. Avatars without Stout Servant already sustain 50% Damage Taken. BST pets have over 3,000 HP, and Automatons have more HP and more defense along with self cures, maneuvers. DRG hopefully will get 4-5 Tiers of Stout Servant starting at lower levels compared to SMN/PUP/BST which receive their first tier of the trait starting at level 78-85.

I also hope the 'short duration' is at least 2-3 minutes with a 5 minute recast since many NMs can instantly kill our wyvern in a single AoE attack, it'll be difficult to gauge when the proper time would be to use such an ability if the duration were to be set at like 30 seconds or something.

It makes sense that Avatars sustain -50% damage since Summoners 'pay' for their avatars with MP, BSTs 'pay' for their pet with Jugs and PUP's 'pay' for attachements and have weaker physical abilities than a DRG and therefore are more reliant. Knowing this, it makes sense why Wyverns take the most damage and why DRG is the 'weakest of the pet classes' in terms of pet survivability and pet functionality. Even still, I can't express more strongly the need for DRG to have many, many tiers of Stout Servant over the other pet jobs, we need it more than they do. Call Beast is such a short recast, Puppets can be deployed from a distance and use magic or ranged attacks, Avatars can and are resummoned when KO'd for pittance cost of MP. The Wyvern is integral for DRG's damage output(which is already much lower than WAR, SAM, MNK). A DRG can Spirit and Soul Jump for TP with the Wyvern and do a 2,500 or 3k Drakesbane while a SAM having no pet can casually Meditate-> Konzen-ittai->Tachi:Fudo for 3k damage + 3k light then Tachi: Fudo for another 3k with a 4.5k light thereafter for MASSIVE damage which DRG cannot compare with even with our pet alive.

What I'm saying is, DRG is a weaker damage dealer than WAR, SAM, MNK even with or Wyvern and top of the line DRG gear. So since our damage potential is much lower than WAR/SAM/MNK even at DRG's full potential(best gear, empyrean,wyvern alive) when our pet dies it knocks DRG's potential even lower down on the rungs of usefulness as a damage dealer making us almost worthless to our party compared to the unfettered and unrelenting 4-5k damage weaponskills and useful hugely damaging array of enhancing abilities that MNK,SAM and WAR such as Konzen-ittai, Berserk, Impetus,Perfect Counter, Hasso etc.

Hopefully after the next update SE can look into giving DRG more damage potential via a stronger Empyrean WS or more importantly a buff that enhances our Attack, weaponskill damage or a massive increase to Wyvern Breaths so that we don't look silly doing our meager 2k Drakesbanes while a WAR does a 6k Ukko's Fury into another 6k Ukkos' Fury for a 6k Light or a SAM doing three 3k weapon skills into a 5k light skillchain or MNK's hitting for 400 damage every second with 5k Victory Smites and all the Countering/Damage they mitigate with their high Evasion/HP/Counter abilities.

[Sasaraixx]

SCH had its two-hour spells named a couple of weeks ago and BLU was told it is getting White Wind next update. I'm not sure if there are others, but nonetheless good news for your wyverns :)

[Camate]

While some fine tuning is still being performed, the stats for abilities to be introduced in the upcoming version update have been pretty solidified, so here is some follow up information.



Steady Wing (Lv. 95)
Creates a barrier that temporarily absorbs a certain amount of damage dealt to your wyvern.


The amount of damage nullified:
In instances where the wyvern’s HP is full: 20% of the wyvern’s max HP
In instances where the wyvern’s HP is not at max: 20% of the wyvern’s max HP + the amount of HP lost.



The amount of damage wyverns take will be reduced.


The amount of damage reduction is 40%.

Looking at the details of Steady Wing, some of you might be thinking, “Only 20%!?” However, please take into consideration that a constant 40% reduction in damage will now be applied to wyverns as well.

[Leonlionheart]

Holy crap, that's amazing.

[Limecat]

Hrm, interesting. The 40% damage reduction alone is going to help a lot.

[Babekeke]

So when wyvern is down to 1% hp it's 119% of max HP is nullified o.0

[Thala]

No, I'm pretty sure it works like this.

Reasonably presumed Wyvern max HP (for example purposes): 1200
Wyvern HP at 1%: 12
Formula under Steady Wing: 20% * (Max wHP + wHP lost)
Actual numbers: 0.2 * (1200 + (1200-12)) = 0.2 * 2388 = ~478

That's...quite nice actually, particularly on top of the other 40%.

Also, question. The ability description says absorbs, but your details say nullified. Which is it?

[Sekundes]

No, I'm pretty sure it works like this.

Reasonably presumed Wyvern max HP (for example purposes): 1200
Wyvern HP at 1%: 12
Formula under Steady Wing: 20% * (Max wHP + wHP lost)
Actual numbers: 0.2 * (1200 + (1200-12)) = 0.2 * 2388 = ~478

That's...quite nice actually, particularly on top of the other 40%.

Also, question. The ability description says absorbs, but your details say nullified. Which is it?

They most likely mean the effect absorbs it like you would say stoneskin absorbs something, not that it cures the wyvern.

[Thala]

Oh, hmm, I was thinking on per hit terms. Reading things over again, a Stoneskin effect sounds more accurate. Makes sense!

[Deadvinta]

I would EXPECT it to be more like Phalanx than Stoneskin, based on the description.

[Tannlore]

40% constant damage reduction... ooooh you made my day <3

[Coldbrand]

So Camate is tonight the night where you'll finally address Camlann's Torment needs fixing? How about Lancet?

[SpankWustler]

So Camate is tonight the night where you'll finally address Camlann's Torment needs fixing? How about Lancet?

I believe it shares a naming scheme with Cloudsplitter. Clouds aren't very hard, and Camlann's Torment isn't meant to be fun to use.

[Coldbrand]

It's called that because King Arthur died in the Battle of Camlann.

[Ophannus]

Spirit Surge is Lancet.

[Yugl]

Epic win for DRG updates!

[Ophannus]

Honestly hope the duration is longer than "Earth Greaves" and "Gargoyle Boots" (Grants a 30 second Stoneskin Effect yet takes 10 seconds to use and disable actions for another 10 seconds).

[Sekundes]

I would EXPECT it to be more like Phalanx than Stoneskin, based on the description.

I'm not really sure I quite understand how this conclusion was reached? Depending on duration, I wouldn't mind that but the way the description is worded could not possibly mean phalanx.

"The amount of damage nullified:
In instances where the wyvern’s HP is full: 20% of the wyvern’s max HP
In instances where the wyvern’s HP is not at max: 20% of the wyvern’s max HP + the amount of HP lost."

When your wyvern has max hp he gets 20% of his hp as a barrier that nullifies damage. Wyvern has about 1300 hp at level 90 iirc. 1300*.20=260 I would not believe for a moment that se would give anyone a 260 phalanx effect. Now the next part. If your wyvern does not have full hp then it gets the 260 base and then you add the amount of hp lost. Lets say he has 100 hp left. he's missing 1200 hp. 260+1200 is 1460. This amount is rather insane for a stoneskin effect as it is but as a phalanx effect my wyvern could solo god.

[Ravenmore]

Don't get to happy when we first get to play with this you know they are not going to test this to the point it should be and theres a 90% chance its going to be broken on top of they might not test it with all the atma combos. holding judgement till the players test it.

[Ophannus]

Will probably have a 30s-1min duration to prevent abuse from atmas. Wyvern solo go! (Would take forever to kill something using only a DRG wyvern)

[Byxfluzba]

Just nitpicking. 90Wyverns have 1216HP... Assuming they gain the exact same 10hp per level they've been gaining since 75 (at least), 1226HP at 95...

Meh.. read http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=14&mid=1313781638282911426&p=1#10

[Thonuwan]

Just nitpicking. 90Wyverns have 1216HP... Assuming they gain the exact same 10hp per level they've been gaining since 75 (at least), 1226HP at 95...

Meh.. read http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=14&mid=1313781638282911426&p=1#10

Wouldn't the wyvern have 1266 HP then since it would gain 50 HP from 90 to 95?

[Kensagaku]

Some pretty nice effects. I imagine the JA is like a stoneskin as people have mentioned over a phalanx, and depending on the recast of this it is nice for keeping your pet alive while preventing it from becoming an overpowered tank. Sure your wyvern could solo an NM with atmas (think PDT/MDT is capped at 87.5% for ALL pets now... does the trait tie into this as well?) between the new trait and this JA but it would take ages, a big waste of abyssea time.

One thing I wonder now that I've brought up PDT/MDT - first off, is the trait a constant PDT- or DT-? The wording makes it sound like the latter, but I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to make it just as nuke-squishy. Typical SE nerf etc etc. I am looking forward to seeing this trait though, and then tossing on the Stoneskin JA to keep my wyvern even more durable. It'll give me a chance to pull my DRG out of storage once in a while. :3

[Ophannus]

Lest you all forget, the Wyvern gains +25% HP from 1,000 EXP bonus.

[Ultima]

This is great news for DRG. Drgs rejoice.

Also, Ophannus, it's
Konzen> Kasha > light > Fudo > Double Light.

Konzen> Fudo > light > Fudo > nothing.

It really is fun too lol

[Kiroko]

What happened to the idea of making our Wyverns bigger?

[Kensagaku]

Why are we so obsessed with that again? They're fine at their size. They're PETS. And I lag enough in certain areas without needing an extra-sized sprite following me and blocking my camera. But this is beside the point, we're talking about the new JA/JT. Let's not derail this please.

I wonder if the EXP bonus to Wyverns works too? For example, if they have 1216 (I'm assuming this is before 25% HP boost) and then go up to 1520 HP, does that boost the JA's effect from 243 (assuming they round down) to 304 HP? Or will it be based on original HP? Will wyvern HP+ gear affect it, such as equipping wyvern HP+ gear then using the JA before switching gear? Because that could be useful, macro in all that gear like for Healing Breath, and get 394 damage reduction when you switch back? (I calculate 1973 HP with every piece of Wyvern HP+ gear including +1 AF legs, aside from the Perch) Something to consider.

[Reiterpallasch]

That's actually a really good question. Not only would swapping in gear to raise their max HP add to the base stoneskin, but you could also get the missing HP on top of it.

So 394 for having a max HP of 1973, and jumping up from 1520 w/o gear would give you another 453 (assuming you get the full missing HP added to the SS and not just 20% of that)

That said, too bad gearswaps are the devil and require 3rd party tools. I can see the hordes of DRG/DNC crying about how weak the new JA is already.

[Byxfluzba]

What's a drg/dnc?

[Limecat]

What's a drg/dnc?

A miserable little pile of sambas.

[Kensagaku]

Amen to that. And you don't really require Windower for it, though I'm certain it's 100% more convenient. Just have to put several macros next to each other for swapping. At least there's not too many for Wyvern gear; I actually only count six--no wait, seven, I forgot Ostreger's, but that's only 10 HP for 2 more Stoneskin? Meh--pieces to macro in. Technically you could ditch the gloves and still be good with one macro in and out.

[Sekundes]

Wyvern Perch: 50
Chanoix's Gorget: 50
Lancer's Earring: 20
Wyvern Mail: 65
Ostreger Mitts: 10
Lancer's Pelerine: 30
Drachen Brais +1 : +15%
Homam Gambieras: 50

Clearly the perch is only useful if you are willing to sacrifice whatever tp you have. But even if you nix the perch and the mitts that's still 6 so you'd have to give up the earring to be able to put the ja line in the macro. Luckly with the adjustments you could put the needed wait in there to make sure your wyvern hp procs before the ja goes off as it can take a few seconds for it to update.

So unless I forgot something that's 275 hp plus and then 15% on top of that. 25% bonus if you can get exp which is overall a nice addition.

[Kensagaku]

I think the 15% is based on the baseline HP; I took it as 15% from whatever the current base HP with experience is. So my number's a rough guesstimate; I'm not sure if it comes before or after other HP modifications.

[Sekundes]

I think the 15% is based on the baseline HP; I took it as 15% from whatever the current base HP with experience is. So my number's a rough guesstimate; I'm not sure if it comes before or after other HP modifications.

I'm relatively certain that the hp% includes other HP gear just like character hp.

[Kensagaku]

I wouldn't be surprised; I haven't actually looked up information or tested it myself. Thanks for the clarification, I can actually bump those numbers up. :D

[Coldbrand]

Spirit Surge is Lancet.

No, the japanese name for spirit surge is lancet, it does not function as lancet does in any shape or form.

[Lordscyon]

Sounds awesome.
Ive always wonder why DRG was able too use sword xD.

[Coldbrand]

The first appearance of DRG had them using swords, and they also use them prominently in legend of dragoon.

[Ophannus]

No, the japanese name for spirit surge is lancet, it does not function as lancet does in any shape or form.

Neither does Temper.

Also why do you want a crappy 100 dmg HP/MP drain?

[Coldbrand]

I'm glad you're from the future and know the exact numbers.