The Future Example Dragoon Adjustments (2011)

[Xaander]

#1- Adding an ability that makes wyverns more difficult to KO.

Wyvern survivability should have been dealt with a long time ago. An ability that makes wyverns more difficult to KO will not be much help unless it is a severe form of both physical and magical damage reduction for the pet that can be up full time. What Dragoon really needs is a job ability that is the equivalent of the Puppetmaster's "Deus Ex Automata". Deus Ex Automata is a 1 minute recast job ability that revives the pet with half of its maximum HP. A job ability like this for Dragoon would be a simple fix to the issue of a Dragoon not having its wyvern. The days when wyverns were 2 hour abilities has long since passed and SE understood the need to shorten the recast to 20 minutes. The game we play in now is one of new challenges and monsters with increasing strengths and frequent use of incapacitating area-of-effect abilities. A new ability like Deus Ex Automata would give the wyvern the edge it needs to be useful in the game we play today.

#2- Adding an effect to Jump, High Jump, and Super Jump that reduces enmity of the player behind the dragoon.

Support functions to other party members are fine, but the next two adjustments are evidence that SE intends ignore Dragoon's main role as a damage dealer in future updates. SE should give Dragoon useful support functions, but should never lose sight of the damage focus Dragoons are accustomed to.
Two main problems with SE giving Jump, High Jump, and Super Jump enmity reduction to other party members behind the Dragoon are the obvious logistical problems, and, that Jump and High Jump share timers with Spirit and Soul Jump. Most people who have played PLD understand the typical difficulties of trying to run in front of another player to access their job ability. Also, many times mages who are likely to pull hate stand at max casting range. Max casting range far exceeds the distance Dragoon's can jump, which means that the only way Dragoon would be able to clear the hate of a mage in an intense fight is if the monster is barreling towards or in the process of destroying them. By that time it is usually too late to make use of a hate diminishing ability that erases hate based on positioning. Currently, Super Jump partially erases the hate of the player standing behind the DRG when under the effect of Spirit Surge and is difficult to execute quickly and properly in intense battle situations.
Another problem with SE giving hate diminishing support functions to Jump and High Jump is that that the timers are shared with Spirit and Soul Jump. Dragoon's would need to sacrifice the ample TP gain of Spirit and Soul Jump to use the inferior Jump and High Jump. Unless TP gain of Jump and High Jump were increased to useful levels, using these jumps to lower the hate of a party member would harm the Dragoon's damage output in such a way as not to be worth using unless it were certain to save the party member from an untimely demise.


#3- Adding the effect of reducing magic resistance to certain wyvern breath attacks.
As I sit here wondering if this was the best thing they could do to balance the Dragoon job class with other jobs, I feel the need to slam my head into the floor repeatedly. The only way this wyvern breath alteration could be useful is if the DRG could physically choose which breath the wyvern would do. Wyverns try to target a mobs weakness, with "try" being a key word here. Some gear, like AF helm, up the chance that a wyvern will target a foe's weakness. But unfortunately, some mobs have no weaknesses or have weaknesses to elements like Light or Dark that a wyvern does not have a corresponding breath to use. And even still, some battle circumstances make it so some elements are still more powerful to use than the monster's actual weakness. I highly doubt that the party members with magical capabilities will all sit around the wyvern with bated breath praying that it uses the element they want it to then shout, "HOLY MOTHER OF GOD IT ACTUALLY DID FLAME BREATH! EVERYONE NUKE FIRE FAST!".

In comparison to some of the proposed adjustments for other jobs like Samurai- "Adding an ability that increases accuracy and damage of weapon skills" and how could we forget, "Adding an ability that augments the next weapon skill used with a TP bonus"- It is a real let down for people who actually care about Dragoon. As I fall asleep to ponder these adjustments, I begin to wonder if there is boom in elementary school drop outs that make up the pool SE hires from. I try to convince myself that maybe, just maybe, SE developers might read their own forums and learn something from the people who experience the game on a regular basis. God bless the Dragoons.

-Xaander

[StingRay104]

Deus ex automata does not give you your pet back at 50%, at most it gives you your pet at about 1/3 hp. As for the reduces breath resistance comment SE made (They stated this very poorly) I believe they mean they are gonna make mobs weaker to our wyverns breath attacks, so more dmg from our pets when we ws (I think this is what they are saying). Other than that you hit the nail on the head with this post.

[Coldbrand]

I have to say I'm not really that excited about the Dragoon updates either honestly, but knowing Camate this thread we'll just be ignored. Also pretty funny that we're just never going to get Lancet. The only one they got right was methods to keep wyvern alive, but really, that shouldn't be treated as what we got for 90-99, that's just like a bug fix practically considering it dies to any and all aoe on endgame bosses in a heartbeat and cripples us since they insist on making us rely on the thing instead of making jumps the central focus of the dragoon as they should be (though not by dividing their abilities up between two sets of timers, imagine if SAM's new JA's were give up meditate and you can do this niche utility thing.)

I don't think SE gets that people only care so much about utility with these Monk and Dragoon updates. If WAR and SAM are just gonna' pull back ahead post abyssea then it's going to be pretty damn boring again.

[Xaander]

I apologize, Deus Ex Automata is 1/3 max hp. But even 1/3 HP would get the job done. The main point is the benefit in having a move to revive the pet that has a very low recast delay. With the right spirit link gear and your own HP near full, a spirit link would fill a wyvern with 1/3 HP full (or very near to full).

If what SE did intend is that the monster becomes weaker to our own breath attacks and not a general element resistance reduction, then it is even more useless than I had originally anticipated.

[OMEGA_HACK]

What needs to happen?

Level55: Wyvern learns Elemental Breath II (damage without any bonus: 300ish)
Level55: Wyvern learns Dragon Scales Trait (-10% Damage(any) reduction)
Level65: Wyvern learns Healing Breath IV (no bonus cure amount: 300-350)
Level65: Wyvern learns Dragon Scales II Trait (-20% Damage(any) reduction)
Level80: Wyvern learns Elemental Breath III (damage without any bonus: 400ish)
Level80: Wyvern learns Adaptability Trait (Wyvern gains 25% of bonus from equipped gear effects)
Level85: Wyvern learns Dragon Scales III Trait (-30% Damage(any) reduction)
Level95: Wyvern learns Healing Breath V (no bonus cure amount: 400-450)
Level95: Wyvern learns Dragon Scales IV Trait (-40% Damage(any) reduction)
Level99: Wyvern learns Elemental Breath IV (damage without any bonus: 500ish)
Level99: Wyvern learns Adaptability II Trait (Wyvern gains 35% of bonus from equipped gear effects)


Level25: Dragoon learns Cleansing Breath* (removes 1 status ailment from target; Recast 2min)
Level45: Dragoon learns Cleansing Breath* (removes 2 status ailments from target; Recast 2min)
Level55: Dragoon learns Dragon Scout*** Job Ability
Level65: Dragoon learns Dragon Rage**** Job Ability
Level70: Dragoon learns Dragon Stamina***** Job Ability
Level95: Dragoon learns Cleansing Breath* (removes 3 status ailments from target; Recast 2min)
Level95: Dragoon learns Comet Jump****** Job Ability
Level99: Dragoon learns Dragon Heart** Trait

*Its the same ability it just gets stronger, also with this they should get rid of the Wyvern learning only a handful of Removal Breaths at staggered levels; or as it gets stronger then allow more of a variety of ailments to be removed
**If Dragoon is to die with a Wyvern out, it will sacrifice the wyvern in order to bestow a special RR wherein the Dragoon will be revived with 50% of his HP and no weakness (this is inspiration from the FFT games)
***Recast 3min, stance ability; grants the Dragoon a "Sphere Effect" of Evasion+20, Crit Def bonus+15 and Increases chance to parry/block/guard
****Recast 3min, stance ability; grants the Dragoon a "Sphere Effect" of Attack+20 Crit Hit Rate+15 and Accuracy+10
*****Recast 3min, stance ability; grants the Dragoon a "Sphere Effect" of Refresh(1/tic), Matt Bonus+15, Cure Potency+10%
******AoE jump that gives TP based on the number of targets hit (1hit = normal TP return; each additional target = +5TP) range 5' from target

(Sphere effects work just like from the new gear sets; could have a different range though)

[Ophannus]

I would like to see updates to not only the Wyvern but also the Dragoon itself. We lack any real 'special buff' ability that all other melees have. Other melee jobs have Berserk,Warcry,Sneak Attack,Last Resort,Hasso,Souleater,Boost,Dodge,etc...

Rend
"The next physical attack will ignore the target's defense."
3 min recast.

Or another variation of this job ability can be a trait.

"Piercing Rend"
"Attacks occasionally ignore defense"

This trait can activate 5-10% of the time in a similar fashion as Double Attack, Triple Attack, Kick Attacks, Zanshin etc. When this trait procs on a hit or WS defense is ignored.

Another reason why enmity loss during Jump/High Jump/Super Jump is a useless enhancement to the DRG job is because most of the time when fighting HNMs in an alliance, mages are in a separate party from the melees. This means unless the hate shedding properties added to the 'old' jumps can work across alliances, it's completely pointless. Furthermore another reason why hate shed is a lousy idea for jump enhancements is that Dragoon's main priority is to deal damage meaning they will be using Spirit/Soul Jump as soon as they are available. No DRG will save his Jumps for when a mage pull hate because it would be an inefficient loss of potential TP and damage for the DRG.

One suggestion I can offer is decouple the shared timers of the old jumps and new jumps because no dragoon will use an old jump over a new jump. If the Devs want DRG to use the Old Jumps, then give them useful effects. Make Jump stun the target for a few seconds or make it not stun but give it an extremely(95%) chance to interrupt a target that's casting a spell. Give High Jump some kind of evasion or attack down on the target.

My last suggestion is to allow Spirit and Soul Jump to have the Wyvern special bonus attributes during Spirit Surge. While SPirit Surge is active, Spirit and Soul Jump cease to crit or give extra TP since the wyvern is gone, although technically the wyvern's spirit is absorbed into the Dragoon. Additionally, since Jump/High Jump/Soul Jump have special effects under Spirit Surge, give Spirit and Soul Jump a special effect too.

[Aequis]

The main problem with Dragoon and SE is that they're trying to give us something that will get us back into Abyssea (or end game) parties. But seeing as though they don't understand their game well enough lately, they think that hate-mitigation tools will give us that niche.

Absolutely and completely the wrong direction to take, as most of us know. We are damage dealers at our core and capable solo-ers in some situations, but overall a team with our wyverns. Our companions need either -50% dt similar to avatars and more HP, or the range at which they can be damaged needs to be adjusted.

Our Empyrian weaponskill also need some fixes (I have a Lv.90 Rhongomiant). It needs to be able to crit, it needs to ignore more defence at 100% TP and above or it plain just needs modifying so it's capable of higher damage. Some might argue its true power is self-making a Light skillchain with Drakesbane, but that's possible only with certain subs and certain situations.

I don't agree with our wyverns needing Healing Breath V. HB IV may be passable Lv.90+, but if you gear properly for HB III and use Deep Breathing, you can expect to see well over 1000 HP return - that's pretty powerful as is. It would be nice to have a "Remove Silence" or "Remove Slow" breath, and I don't think that's too outrageous to ask for.

Elemental breaths, yeah. They need boosting a bit, but what I got from their notes was something similar to skillchain weakness. ie. My Ginger will use Flame Breath and the mob will take increased damage vs. fire for a short time. Which isn't all that useful...

As for other ideas for our job, can't think of too many. Perhaps new jumps with an added effect like evasion down / paralyse / stun. Maybe something for wyverns like, temporarily give them a % of our attack, or allow them to take a stance above the battlefield that enables them to deal ranged damage and avoid AoEs.

We really need something to get us back into the fray and give the job a bit more appeal. Half the battle is convincing people we can do decent damage and we are flexible.

[Diemond]

DRG
every jump should have its own timer. this will enhance drg DD capability and make the jumps more of a for front of the job.
Parry rate for lance should be higher
Wyvern
implement a slot system for wyvern like the one for pup's. I would love to armor up my little guy. using synergy to create armor with various color options to personalize our partners. give our wyvern 4-6 slots to add pieces that have benefits such as: add HP, add DEF, add double att, add magic def, enhance wyvern breath....etc

being that wyverns are flying creatures. I would like to see them stop taking damage from ground strike type aoe's. this also goes for drg's in mid highjump and soul jump

This is a re post this area seems to be where most ppl are adding ideas and not just complaining.

[Ophannus]

Another problem with adding enmity reduction for players behind us for old Jumps is that it most likely won't work across parties in an alliance. Since most players structure alliances by putting mages in one party and DDs in another, there will seldom be an opportunity during a HNM fight that DRGs will erase a player's hate. Since a DRG's main priority is dealing damage, most DRGs will be riding their Spirit and Soul Jump timers, using them as soon as they're available. No sane DRG will save his Jump for when some other melee pulls hate.

I know the Devs want to add functionality to Old Jumps, but adding enmity reduction for other players while behind us isn't that amazing or useful. So maybe you can add Stun/Terror to Jump, Attack or Evasion down to High Jump and Super Jump leave be.

Additionally since New Jumps have been added whose bonus attributes (Extra TP, 100% chance of critical hit) are predicated on the Wyvern being alive, I think it would be fair and logical to give Spirit and Soul Jump these effects during Spirit Surge. Presently under Spirit Surge, Spirit and Soul Jump are weaker than Jump. This shouldn't be since technically during Spirit Surge, the essence of the wyvern fuses with the Dragoon. This would make our 2hr slightly less 'meh'. As an added boon, could the Devs add bonus effects to spirit and soul jump during our 2hr? I mean Jump got defense down, High Jump erases TP proportionate to damage. Maybe Spirit and Soul Jump can drain HP/TP or reduce attack speed or magic defense etc..

[Mookie]

I'd wish they'd put jump/spirit jump and high jump/soul jump on different fricking timers. Now THAT would be a REAL improvement.

[Anucris]

Of course every drg wants the timers split. Or they could throw in a
flash jump for norm or less DMg and stun. 1 min recast
The enfeeble breaths
I like the wyv survivability idea as well as the potential for increased breath DMg because as it is now if a mob is weak to fire and it uses flame breath. It usually doesnt do anymore DMg than any other breath or a regular attack.

[Anucris]

And how bout shadow jump. 3hit jumping attack (or 1) that generates 3 shadows. Then spirit link em to wyv recast 5 min.
It's not hard to come up with decent ideas. Some of SE's just seemed out of touch with the game. If they want drg to be pt friendly go ahead with HB 4. And split jump timers but the old jumps can do a debuff each or grant the entire party the tp from jump and high jump. Each person 14-15 tp. Pt would definitely want that

[Meldity]

My feelings are on par with xaander. It seems like we constantly get worthless adjustments while other jobs get even more buffs that are already ssj9000 that can tank+ do more damage+more damage just from tanking. Even if you could heal up to 1/3 of the health of a wyvern+spirit link(with a redundant 3min recast) it doesn't stop the fact that just a few aoe hits can kill it or be typically one shotted by any normal hnm type mob. The thing i'm more annoyed about is the fact that wyvern recast is still 20 minutes. When the wyvern itself only deals out like 1% of the overall damage in an alliance of a few or more empyrean weapons+1 minute heal breath recast that doesn't really hold an impact except for when you use spirit link on it or everyone is brb for 5 minutes in dynamis. Not to mention still be easily killed and gimping up your damage even more(ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU GOT RYUNOHIGE AND AF3 ARMOR). I know this job is kind of a solo job(hopefully still considered a dd job), but what can a drg solo that a ninja can't(implying drg can solo anything)? If you try to par it with any other job in terms of damage you'd still be pretty disappointed when twilight set comes into play.

From what I understand, when is hate really an issue in any part of the game besides hnm? Most of the time your ally dd have twilight set which dieing will reset their hate anyway, and once they get back up and swing at it they have hate again even IF the pld knows what he is doing.. If your job was meant to lower the hate of other people, I don't think it would work out very well especially when you have horrible recast timers. The only person i'd imagine using the jump hate reducers for would be the white mage concentrated solely on the pld and you probably won't even be in their party for it to work anyway.

[Amador]

I'd wish they'd put jump/spirit jump and high jump/soul jump on different fricking timers. Now THAT would be a REAL improvement.

This is beautifully said. If they want us to use the old jumps, to use their new worthless augments of enmity decrease. They should be on different timers. Not shared, at all.

[Amador]

What it looks like, is as if the new Dev team is trying to correct the paths the old dev team took 11 in with Jobs.

However, they do take considerations from the community who has actually played the job for a very long time.

Jobs tend to get what the issues are to adjust them well, while remaining balanced. The Dragoon community has always buckled down, and just took whatever we got because we never got jack.

The issues that need to be addressed are what we lack, with what we currently have. Not new upgrades to old and outdated abilities, not more accuracy, and certainly not a care to how big your Wyvern is or what color it is. Ridiculous. Get a Chocobo and dye it. Get away from your Wyvern with that dye bottle.

[noodles355]

The Dragoon community has always buckled down, and just took whatever we got because we never got jack.Wat.
Just because we didn't get a bunch of job ability/trait fixes? What about having an expansion where most of the popular exp camps from 55-75+ were piercing weak? Or getting put on new "heavy armor" options to make up for not being on hauby. Or getting one of the strongest empyrean WSs.

[Amador]

That doesn't mean anything at all. Oh, you got more birds to fight. I mean are you serious? What new Heavy Armor options? Ares's? Everyone got something really. Are you just trolling just to do so? Making that post count go up so you can get pretty medals?

The Dragoon Community, like a lot of other jobs weren't hooked up as heavily, nor as heavily focused as others. They had patches/updates dedicated to 1-2 jobs heavily, then others got junk.

Drakesbane is strong, however it made Dragoon compete with the already beefed jobs out there. Just because content released revolves around "That's a bird!" doesn't mean the idea is: "We need more DRG's for this!" back then it was more "We need RNG's on this!" Especially if it was a bird.

This is a new direction 11 is going in, everything old was from the old dev team, that got replaced. I don't know if you're saying: "DRG doesn't need an improvement" or "DRG is fine as is" either way it sounds like that's all you're really saying.

[noodles355]

Drakesbane is strong, however it made Dragoon compete with the already beefed jobs out thereWell no shit. Drg should be competeing against other heavy DDs, it should not be besting them due to it's amazing solo ability.
Drg almost always had an alliance spot for Angon. Drg was popular for EXP because of piercing weak mobs. Drg was keeping up on damage with the other heavy DDs, thus it didn't need huge fixes.

I don't disagree that drg needs a buff now, after the other jobs have been getting significant buffs, however back in ToAU it really didn't need a serious buff. And that's why people didn't talk much about it. It wasn't some bullshit about our patience and stoic nature etc etc.

[Amador]

Dragoon has always lacked an attack boost, it's always been there and it's always lacked it since even before when we didn't have Drakesbane. It's still an issue, and something we do not have access to.

Wyvern has always needed a survivability boost. The patience/stoic nature isn't even something I was getting it. More so just saying that the Dragoon community didn't care to buckle down and really speak what was needed for the job. That's all.

[Meldity]

Drg should be competing against other heavy DDs, it should not be besting them due to it's amazing solo ability.

it should not be besting them due to it's amazing solo ability.

amazing solo ability

amazing

are you serious? there is like nothing worth while a drg can solo anymore unless you want sky farming. and even by that point you may as well be on thf since evasion is the most broken form of tanking out there now. well you're talking in past tense, maybe that's why you said it..?

[Amador]

are you serious? there is like nothing worth while a drg can solo anymore unless you want sky farming. and even by that point you may as well be on thf since evasion is the most broken form of tanking out there now. well you're talking in past tense, maybe that's why you said it..?

See what I mean? Just garbage.

People seem to think that our Pet Job is amazing for soloing. Who cares about soloing if it's only Party Mobs? They want to keep it that way it is, because we can solo T-VT mobs. Yay. Go level Dancer.

If our Wyvern could out live more than 2 nukes, maybe then we'd be more solo capable.

[Ophannus]

We can solo party mobs but so could almost every job now. DNC/THF/NIN/MNK can solo zone bosses and +2 Emp item NMs, DRG's can't.

[noodles355]

Hey look, I can do annoying quotes too.

are you serious? there is like nothing worth while a drg can solo anymore unless you want sky farming. and even by that point you may as well be on thf since evasion is the most broken form of tanking out there now. well you're talking in past tense, maybe that's why you said it..?
are you serious? there is like nothing worth while a drg can solo anymore unless you want sky farming.
there is like nothing worth while a drg can solo anymore
drg can solo anymore
anymore
The argument was about ToAU times. Keep up.

[Ophannus]

I would love if the Wyvern gained "Remove Petrify" that would trigger automatically if the Wyvern is over 100% TP with a mage support job. Would be nice for T2 Euvhi VNM in Attowha, the one that does Break that lasts for 3+ minutes.

[Nightstrike]

I think they could leave the jumps on the same timers, if they just alter them right. If Jump and High Jump where physical damage and Spirit and Soul Jump where magical damage. Both starting with the same base damage and tp gain. That way it could be a little more situational between the jumps. And i think Smiting Breath is a little on the pointless side.

[Ophannus]

Or keep the shared timers but make it like Collaborator/Accomplice. If Jump is used, the recast will be 60 seconds. If Spirit Jump is used, the recast is 90 seconds. Give Jump a flash or stun effect to make it worthy of using, even if situationally, over Spirit Jump. High Jump could be a 90 second recast if used, but Soul Jump's will be 3 minutes but High Jump could have some kind of low duration aftermath effect similar to Sentinel or something. This way they 'share' timers but depending on which Jump is used, the recast is altered.