DRK Adjustments via Manifesto

[Urteil]

Example Adjustments
A new ability that sacrifices TP gain to make attacks more powerful.
A new ability that raises the amount of damage the dark knight takes, but also raises the amount of magic and elemental weapon skill damage it deals.

The "price" that we pay is far too expensive for the mediocre results we can achieve.

Terrible ideas SE.

*Revamped the original OP from only whining to what I have carefully considered,via the DRK job forum, and myself.* 7/30/2011




SE please consider the following:

DRK requires more survivability "Making us take more damage," leaves many of us scratching our heads, I am not sure we have any more to sacrifice in the defense department.


However TP is certainly not what we should be sacrificing.


Bolster our job with something else to provide a buffer between us and death, when we are fulfilling our role as a "premier damage dealer"!




Blood Weapon

Square Enix, please make Blood Weapon a normal job ability for Dark Knight not a two-hour.

Give us a real two-hour. (Chainspell and Hundred Fists I'm looking at you.)

Dark Knight being praised for using a club (WHM weapon) or a dagger (Defnitley not a DRK weapon) is very silly, trite, stupid, boring, and retarded.


As such please balance Blood-weapon in the following way:


Blood Weapon:
Duration: 60s (1 Minute)
Recast: 480s (8 Minutes)

Heals the Dark Knight for the damage inflicted through melee swings, and physical Weapon Skills.

Effective only with a two handed weapon equipped.

Meaning that if you are using a Sword, Dagger, Club, Axe the Job ability will be 100% useless and provide no benefit whatsoever.





Souleater

Souleater currently has gotten an upgrade that I find most favorable, logical and most importantly useful. The only request I can see that makes any sense is that we get at least one more tier of Stalwart Soul nativley.

Lv. 95DRK Stalwart Soul V - Reduces HP consumption from souleater by 60%

Alternatively in addition to another tier of Stalwart soul allow us to merit the potency of souleater.

1 Merit: +2% additional damage to souleater that is not taken from HP.
2 Merits: +4% additional damage to souleater that is not taken from HP.
3 Merits: +6% additional damage to souleater that is not taken from HP.
4 Merits: +8% additional damage to souleater that is not taken from HP.
5 Merits: +9% additional damage to souleater that is not taken from HP.




Last Resort

Total win.



Dark Seal

Make this Job Ability maximize the magical accuracy of all spells of the darkness element and Dark magic spells: Sleep, Sleep II etc.

It would be nice to have some better utility from this skill.

The only reason its merited is because Diabolic Eye and Muted soul are garbage not even fit for blowing a commoner's nose.




Diabolic Eye

This Job Ability reduces our Maximum HP by 15% for a measly 20 accuracy, there are many ways to get accuracy and not be incompetent by sacrificing your HP.

You keep wanting us to sacrifice something, well MP is something we have in general abundance! So let's use that!



Diabolic Eye:

"The Dark Knight's killing intent allows them to percieve their enemies weaknesses, and the most effective and brutal ways to exploit them. Putting strain on the Dark Knight's mind lowering their total effective amount of MP."


Duration - 2minutes
Recast Fully Merited - 5 minutes

-15% Max MP for all Tiers.

Diabolic Eye I: -15% Max MP and + 2% physical and magical accuracy and damage.
Diabolic Eye II: -15% Max MP and +4% physical and magical accuracy and damage.
Diabolic Eye III: -15% Max MP and +6% physical and magical accuracy and damage.
Diabolic Eye IV: -15% Max MP and +8% physical and magical accuracy and damage.
Diabolic Eye V: -15% Max MP and +10%physical and magical accuracy and damage.


I could buy for a few seconds that for people in terrible gear or who put no effort into their job, the original Job Ability made sense at one point in time back in the day.

However this person is not me, and if it is you, you should feel bad.






Tactical Parry:

With DRK in its current state, this job trait makes zero sense. Please SE do a combination of the following:

Increase Dark Knight's parrying rating to at least B+.

Give Dark Knight a Job Ability that works along the same lines of Perfect Counter or Third Eye that allows the Dark Knight to parry the next 1-3 attacks directed at them on command.



Weapon Bash:


Weapon Bash sorely needs to be looked at. I'm very certain that if I walk over and bash my Caladbolg into your face, it is going to hurt just as much if not more than any other hard object.

Also, why does Samurai have a meritable Weapon Bash that also inflicts Plague.

Does anyone not notice that this makes absolutely zero sense. And is a shining example of Samurai SE favoritism? It makes no sense thematically at all, if anything DRK should have gotten plague on its weapon bash via an update a long time ago.

That was then this is now, simply give it to us too and I don't see any of us making a fuss about it.


Weapon Bash needs some the following adjustments:

+ Damage to target based on the damage rating of your weapon or weapon bash needs to do as much damage as a normal swing, with the chance to crit.

- Weapon Bash and Blade Bash should not be allowed to multi-strike under any circumstance.

+ Dark Knights deserve to have Plague on their weapon bash .

+ Blade Bash and Weapon Bash should both give the user the TP return.









Magic:

SE is resolute Dark Knight becoming more magical, I see that their decision cannot be swayed. Let's try to make it bearable.


Notes on the current state of Dark Knight casting:

Absorb Spells: Need to not decay, there are a lot of them and they don't last very long. This needs to be adjusted by either keeping the duration at its current and removing decay, or slowing the rate of decay/increasing potency.

Dark Knight is in desperate need of gaining some magical celerity if you will. Our spells take too long to cool down, and too long to cast. Absorbs decay far too quickly, and don't even get us started bout the inefficiency of elemental magic.

A combination of any of the following would be appreciated, here are some ideas:

Dark Celerity - Dark Magic casting times and recast times are reduced, stackable with all other forms of Fast Cast and Dark Arts.

Lv. 60 - 15% Casting time and recast time reduction.
Lv. 95 - 20% Casting time and recast reduction

Magical Attack Bonus - We need at least Tier I, with all this talk about Elemental Magic and Elemental Weapon Skills I am still wondering why we did not have this with the advent of Occult Acumen itself.

Avarice - A straight % increase to the potency and effect of Dark Magic, mainly Drain and Aspir and Dread Spikes.

Lv. 45 - +5% Potency to Drain and Aspir and Dread Spikes.
Lv. 65 - +10% Potency to Drain and Aspir and Dread Spikes.
Lv. 85 - +15% Potency to Drain and Aspir and Dread Spikes.

Black Mages have Elemental Celerity, we are sort of cousins or whatever. (Since you keep trying to push us in that direction perhaps you wish to give us tier 1 of that. . . this all seems incredibly backward. . .)







NEW DARK MAGIC:


Drain/Aspir III

Bio III (SE said they are revamping merits, so I'm hopeful that will fix many problems like this.)

Dispel: One of the few Darkness based enfeebling debuffs, DRK has native Enfeebling
Magic and nativley has Sleep/II, Poison/II, and Bind.

Absorb-ENH:Absorbs a Beneficial effect from the target to the Dark Knight. Blue Mage can do this, why can't we. Some DRK mobs can do this by simply swinging. Seeing as how there is a weapon in the game that can do this simply through melee (Sagasinger), this update is long overdo.

Absorb-ATK: Absorbs a straight percentage of the target's attack (with a cap) and bestows it upon the Dark Knight, stackable with all other forms of attack down.

Absorb-DEF:Absorbs a straight percentage of the target's defense (with a cap) and bestows it upon the Dark Knight, stackable with all other forms of attack down.

Absorb-SPD:Haste in the form of Dark magic that also slows down the afflicted, stacking with all other forms of slow. Reducing their attack speed and recast timers.

+15% "Haste" to DRK and -15% to the afflicted.

As far as this stacking with Haste itself, I am not too sure about that. It should be effective in its enfeebling aspect for sure however I see it stacking with other forms of magical haste as overpowered.


Plague: Reduces enemy tp and mp, pretty logical and standard stuff here folks. Blue Mage also has Plague, thematically this makes little sense for us to not possess it.

Terror: Again I don't see this as a stretch.

Stun II: Everyone gets stun, we are the first to get Stun, I think a new stun with noticable potency would be good.

Darkness: Analogous to Holy instant cast, instant damage good synergy with occult
acumen.

[Siiri]

The ideas SE posted are not what is needed. Elemental weapon skills are horrible, their is no need to enhance them. Why would anyone want to give up TP to do extra damage. Weapon skills for 2 handed DDs make up a significant portion of damage. Unless we are hitting for 1000 a swing no one in their right mind would use this job ability, unless for 2 hour only. While suggesting these for DRK , once again SAM and WAR get instant win job abilities with no down side.

I am baffled that SE is so out of touch with job balance and game mechanics. If they want DRKS to cast, I would suggest a Dark Celerity like blm gets for elemental magic, and cut down casting timers overall. Also, add Stun II and other spells. For melee side I would have given DRK the war ability to crit the next hit.

I don't pretend to know it all, and these are just my brief thoughts, its like almost anything is better than the stuff they suggested.

[Coldbrand]

Actually your ideas sound terrible. TP bonus and WS DMG is far more relevant then bad magic.

[Bagel]

Shoudln't this and the smn thread go in their job specific forums?

[Karbuncle]

According to a friend, the "French" Version notes say that DRKS will gain 0 TP per hit for the DMG boost. so its not a "nerf to TP Gain", You literally gain no TP.

Not sure if old news.

[Urteil]

According to a friend, the "French" Version notes say that DRKS will gain 0 TP per hit for the DMG boost. so its not a "nerf to TP Gain", You literally gain no TP.

Not sure if old news.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHA.

[Airget]

You aren't thinking outside the box.

-A new ability that sacrifices TP gain to make attacks more powerful.
Could be pretty potent for kraken club + soul eater combo. Heck you never know keep in mind they said

""We are working hard to ensure that each job plays an equally important role in the new systems and NM battles, and we welcome any comments you may have that will help us accomplish this objective.""

Which means maybe we'll face mobs that have abilities like WS aura lock which would lock out ability to use WS so we'll have to focus on making our melee attacks stronger or magic damage.
---
-A new ability that raises the amount of damage the dark knight takes, but also raises the amount of magic and elemental weapon skill damage it deals.

With this you aren't considering areas where maybe meleeing the mob isn't the best option or they are straight up immune to the damage. In those cases you can sacrifice your defense to assist with dealing damage through magic.

You have to stop thinking about things in terms of how much damage I can do overtime and more so what are my damage type options. With more options you are given more opportunities to assist with defeating a mob in cases where maybe your main source of damage is negated against the mob.

If you can think of it in that way then all the job adjustments work with what they are aiming for. While they are trying to give all jobs a fair boost, they are also trying to define them and make each melee unique from one another. if you take a look at what they said I would say they are off to a good start when it comes to actually making every job unique from one another rather then just another DD job.

[Greatguardian]

According to a friend, the "French" Version notes say that DRKS will gain 0 TP per hit for the DMG boost. so its not a "nerf to TP Gain", You literally gain no TP.

Not sure if old news.


Ajout d’une aptitude améliorant petit à petit les capacités des attaques normales mais réduisant le gain de TP à 0.

Seems that way. Ha.

[Karbuncle]

-A new ability that sacrifices TP gain to make attacks more powerful.
Could be pretty potent for kraken club + soul eater combo. Heck you never know keep in mind they said

I like here you're going, But very few mobs don't full-resist Souleater after a few hits, I think even the new Voidwatch NMs are resistant to Souleater.

It would be adding an ability for a part of the game dead. Unless they're planning to add a mob that Halts TP gain as a TP move (then again it would have to last significantly to make this ability not seem like a nerf)

You're right theres a lot of possibilities, But realistically it would become an incredibly situational Job Ability, something DRK does not need more of.

[StingRay104]

Ok so we aren't gonna gain tp while we have this ability up, fine, can we also ws with 0% tp while this thing is active?

I know that sounds dumb but this whole concept that SE seems to giving us is much dumber. I know nothing is set in stone, but we drks like our ws's SE, don't try to take that away from us, besides I like many other drks have worked hard to get my empy (Caladbolg) and it would really suck to have my ws and aftermath taken away.

[Zoner]

Shoudln't this and the smn thread go in their job specific forums?

It's obvious SE doesn't visit dark knight forums when looking for input or ideas, so our dissatisfaction has spilled out here.

[Ravenmore]

If it stacks SA and works with WSs, but really when was last time any half way dencet drk used /thf. Might be some fights it could be useful but can't be many, really feel for drks.

[Urteil]

It's obvious SE doesn't visit dark knight forums when looking for input or ideas, so our dissatisfaction has spilled out here.
No they didn't visit the Dark Knight Forums.

[Luciola]

On the French translation it also notes that your normal attacks gradually augments in capacity. So maybe you gain Att, acc, and deal more dmg.

[Dauntless]

If that isn't able to be transferred over to weaponskills, that is still terrible.

[hiko]

we don't know how it will work but hiting 5times for 200 and wsing for 2000 is the same as hiting 5times for 600, can be used with multi attack weapon (oa2-4),

[Dauntless]

Question is how often that would be useful considering most aby fights either last 10-30 seconds or require fighting an NM where you TP on outside mobs.

Even outside Aby I can't think of too many uses for that. and this is assuming the reduced tp gain at least triples your DPS.

[Vagrua]

I can see this new ability (sacrifices tp to enhance attack) only being used for WSs when sekkanoki is active then being clicked off afterwards or being used during zergs where tp doesn't really matter for drks.

[Dauntless]

I can see this new ability (sacrifices tp to enhance attack) only being used for WSs when sekkanoki is active then being clicked off afterwards or being used during zergs where tp doesn't really matter for drks.

AKA more situational uses for DRK. Yay. Because we needed more of those.

[Tagrineth]

I love how everyone just automatically assumes it will DEFINITELY FOR SURE ABSOLUTELY NOT add enough damage to make up for the loss of TP gain.

Isn't one of peoples' big problems with DRK now that it lacks that powerhouse WS in abyssea? And now losing out on WS entirely is definitely bad because they won't get to use their powerhouse WS... oh wait

Make up your dang minds, people.

[Dauntless]

It's rather easy to be a cookie-cutter job and make fun of less pampered jobs, isn't it?

What I'm saying is that through our lack of crit our WS damage is currently lacking in power, and all SE wants to do is try to shove gimp magic down our throats.

I don't like this new JA in particular because we attack slow, monsters tend not to be alive long, and DD's rely on WS damage for...damage. The only way this JA would make the hit for hit worth the loss of TP would be if they increased the hits to average 600+. This would make it almost twice as effective as souleater, another reason why I don't see it likely.

But we'll see what happens. As it stands, I'm deeply dissatisfied.

[Greatguardian]

You're lacking in WS power specifically because you're lacking crits? Nah.

You're lacking DD power in Abyssea because you lack a crit WS? Sure.

It's too bad Abyssea has absolutely zero bearing on levels 91-99, huh? Well, I mean, for people who are capable of moving beyond Abyssea content-wise.

[Raxiaz]

*Haven't read topic*

I'm still hoping SE will give DRK auto-refresh. It's probably negligible at this point in the game, but if they want DRKs to be magic casters, then DRKs need a way to restore MP.

Perhaps giving them the all-mighty spell idea of "HP damage, caster gains MP proportionate to damage dealt" would be the better fix to that. Would make so much more sense for DRK. ...Only my 2 cents, DRK isn't past level 37 on either of my chars.

[Dauntless]

You're lacking in WS power specifically because you're lacking crits? Nah.

You're lacking DD power in Abyssea because you lack a crit WS? Sure.

It's too bad Abyssea has absolutely zero bearing on levels 91-99, huh? Well, I mean, for people who are capable of moving beyond Abyssea content-wise.

Well yes, I still feel DRK is a decent enough DD outside of Abyssea even with all the lolupdates SE has thrown at us.

Still, as is I don't see DRK being used much outside of Abyssea either unless some useful updates are made, and sacrificing TP for hit damage does not count as useful unless the JA can be used at 100+ tp and the damage counts towards weaponskills.

Oh, and auto-refresh would be lovely.

[Coldbrand]

ahaha I just remembered catastrophe is an elemental WS rock on patch notes! I'm being serious by the way, looking into making an Apoc myself.



*Haven't read topic*

I'm still hoping SE will give DRK auto-refresh. It's probably negligible at this point in the game, but if they want DRKs to be magic casters, then DRKs need a way to restore MP.

Perhaps giving them the all-mighty spell idea of "HP damage, caster gains MP proportionate to damage dealt" would be the better fix to that. Would make so much more sense for DRK. ...Only my 2 cents, DRK isn't past level 37 on either of my chars.
A way to restore MP huh? If only they had some magical spell that drained it.

[Dauntless]

ahaha I just remembered catastrophe is an elemental WS rock on patch notes! I'm being serious by the way, looking into making an Apoc myself.



A way to restore MP huh? If only they had some magical spell that drained it.

Yeah, and if only that spell didn't have a semi-long cooldown and is only able to be used on mobs that..dunno..actually have mp? Oh, and if only dark magic wasn't gimped. That would be cool too.

[Zatias]

Maybe if the increased melee damage drained MP instead of raping the TP gain it would be nice. Not the first to say: "Son I am dissapoint."

Ability
Soul Tap: Gradually reduces MP for a significant damage increase.
Recast:10min
Duration:5min or until MP reaches 0.

This will increase your damage per swing (and all weaponskills) by maybe 15-20%. Was thinking along the lines of 10mp/tic to upkeep this.

See, now we know we have an MP pool!

Can I has it SE? lol

[Zeroe]

I agree with the OP. Dark Knight right now gets outmatched DOT (obviously) by nin, but I don't see them nerfing there DEF just to put up high Numbers. Don't even get started when it comes to Blade: Hi / Quites for damage. With dark, we honestly need a way to survive. Drain II just dosn't cut it anymore. I understand that we arn't a class thats ment for high DEF, but still we lose too much DEF for what feels like so little gain.

[Dauntless]

Dark Knight right now gets outmatched DOT (obviously) by nin

This is essentially the problem, and I doubt neither elemental magic nor elemental weaponskills can remedy this.

[Tezz]

If it's 0TP gain does that mean every hit is like 1k+

[Malacite]

As nice as MAB would be, DRK was never really meant to nuke - Nuking was really just meant for use on skillchains for an extra burst of spike damage.


In keeping with that line of thinking, I propose the following:

Rather than straight up MAB, give DRK varrying tiers of Magic Burst Bonus. So that DRK can nuke hard, but only off of skillchains thus making smart use of our limited MP.

Secondly, change occult accumen to give back TP based on the damage dealt, not MP cost. Either that, or increase the % of TP gained to MP spent because 10% is a joke. Given how small DRK's MP pool is, I don't particularly see what's wrong with Magic Bursting Thunder IV for say 800+ damage and then being able to WS again. Yeah that's a free WS, but Thunder 4 would also suck up over half if not 3/4 of most DRK's MP pools. I think that's a fair trade.

[Eadieni]

I think what DRK needs is something that gives them the ability to instant cast (perhaps at 0 MP even) an elemental nuke.

Like a job ability on a recast timer that gives the bonus to one spell. Or a job trait that procs it, like how Zanshin works.

I've had my uses for elemental magic at times, but right now the damage is very pathetic to use anything other than a scythe, and it would be nice to instantly cast occasionally for somewhat respectable damage. Not saying 5k or anything, but the occasional 800 dmg nuke would be nice.

[hiko]

I think what DRK needs is something that gives them the ability to instant cast (perhaps at 0 MP even) an elemental nuke.

Like a job ability on a recast timer that gives the bonus to one spell. Or a job trait that procs it, like how Zanshin works.

I've had my uses for elemental magic at times, but right now the damage is very pathetic to use anything other than a scythe, and it would be nice to instantly cast occasionally for somewhat respectable damage. Not saying 5k or anything, but the occasional 800 dmg nuke would be nice.

make it proc on every WS that open/close a SC

or give an abilty that make able to swing while casting

[StingRay104]

Dear SE please ignore anyone who suggests that DRK should get t4 elemental nukes, in fact ignore anyone who puts elemental and drk in the same sentence. It would be much appreciated. Also can you please stop coming up with dumb suggestions like sacrificing tp for dmg. We use that tp more effectively than your new ability ever would, unless you make our attacks deal 2k+, which is ridiculous only war would ask for that kind of buff. Of your gonna look at drks magic dept how about you fix our absorb spells, its been said constantly on the drk forum but here it is bold and underlined so you don't miss it.

Absorb spells need to be able to stack with cruor buffs.

Absorbs spells need to have decay removed.

Absorb spells need to have a longer duration.

Absorb spells need to have a greater effect.

See thats not so hard is it?

[Covenant]

This much like all the new adjustments really depend on the "numbers" SquareEnix if offering.

The new O TP gain > increased damage could "POTENTIALLY "be amazing. If the gain to attack damage is significant enough. Say a standard weaponskill does 1K Damage overall, if the new jobabilty adds enough attack % to each melee swing, making an overall impact of over 1k damage, let's say 1.5k in the same "timeframe", then SE just added an extra 500 pts damage to a Darkknight output. With absorb-TP being a 1min timer DRK will hardly miss the extra normal TP gain.

As for the increased damage to DRK > increasing magic and weaponskill damage, what are the "numbers"? First the likely hood of getting hit while moderate to high, there are ways to mitigate it. If the increase to magical/weaponskill are high say, somehow increasing a tier III nuke to tier IV levels, or increase elemental damage of WS 50%~75% overall damage. Could be overpowered?

Yes, we could have used TierII absorb spells(non decaying, fast cast) and dark damage nukes. But overall, I'm pretty excited by what SE mentioned.

[Seriha]

DRK and Magic is basically the inverse of RDM and Melee. Only reason people hate either is they weren't good enough from the start, yet any attempts to actually remedy that are met with angry tirades by people who "know the job" and what it needs. While a healthy dose of skepticism is fine, frankly, I welcome upping the job's magical prowess. Not like it's hurting on gear there except for maybe a good MATK/INT cape.

[Alhanelem]

The TP for damage ability could be really good, if it boosts your damage significantly the way souleater does. I'd imagine you could have both abilities active at the same time. Especially given that most sythe WS have kind of lost their luster.

As well, the dmg taken + for magic damage could also be good if it's significant enough- Since you gain TP for casting nukes now, it doesn't hurt as much as it would have in the past to cast magic.

[Dauntless]

Also, I'd like to see them do something about Insurgency. It looks amazing but it seems to put out less numbers than guillotine, but the numbers spike every once in a while. Could we get some sort of insight on what the deal with it is? As is, the people who have it don't really use it but I'd like to see it become actually useful, something King's Justice or Drakesbanesque

[StingRay104]

The TP for damage ability could be really good, if it boosts your damage significantly the way souleater does. I'd imagine you could have both abilities active at the same time. Especially given that most sythe WS have kind of lost their luster.

As well, the dmg taken + for magic damage could also be good if it's significant enough- Since you gain TP for casting nukes now, it doesn't hurt as much as it would have in the past to cast magic.

The problem is scythe ws's are indeed lackluster but they might not always be. Weapon skills are getting an update, which could mean scythe and gs are getting nice boosts to ws dmg, or it could be crap. The real problem which is a growing one is people that have empy's use the aftermath to unleash hell and if we can't ws then we can't use aftermath and then why in the hell did we make this goddamn thing. Thats not the most important issue, as I'm sure everyone has noticed not a single drk wants to give up their ws's, its just not what we want, besides we have other useless things we'd be glad to give up in exchange for a dmg increase, for instance mp. Yet SE insists on forcing us to use our magic, well SE let me remind you what the original vision of drk was.

DRK was supposed to be the opposite of PLD. PLD was supposed to be this holy warrior who was an Ultimate Shield to his comrads. DRK was supposed to be a arcane warrior who was the Ultimate Blade. Each had their unique tricks to help show off their prowess in these regards. Pld was not a strong DD and Drk spent a lot of time dead from damage overload. Now tho both have been passed over for their respected roles by other jobs. Thus the constant screams for balance have begun and will continue until SE wises up or we all leave.

[Malacite]

Dear SE please ignore anyone who suggests that DRK should get t4 elemental nukes, in fact ignore anyone who puts elemental and drk in the same sentence. It would be much appreciated. Also can you please stop coming up with dumb suggestions like sacrificing tp for dmg. We use that tp more effectively than your new ability ever would, unless you make our attacks deal 2k+, which is ridiculous only war would ask for that kind of buff. Of your gonna look at drks magic dept how about you fix our absorb spells, its been said constantly on the drk forum but here it is bold and underlined so you don't miss it.

Absorb spells need to be able to stack with cruor buffs.

Absorbs spells need to have decay removed.

Absorb spells need to have a longer duration.

Absorb spells need to have a greater effect.

See thats not so hard is it?


What's wrong with my idea? Making DRK's elemental skill (it is B+ after all) viable for spikes off magic bursts sounds just fine to me. It's about the only conceivable time you should even consider nuking as a DRK, so why not make it at least worth doing - especially if you get a free WS out of it.

Otherwise I agree, there needs to be more unique dark magic like Plague & Terror - both of which suit DRK thematically more than any other job. I'd also love to see an Absorb-Critical spell to increase DRK's crit rate & damage while making the enemy more vulnerable to criticals.

How about an ability that allows DRK to share the effects of it's Absorb-spells with the party? That's be so pro. The rest you already mentioned and I agree with 100% such as removing the decay.

Oh yeah and please fix Absorb-TP so it doesn't suck anymore. It was amazing when we first got it then it got nerfed into obscurity.

[Zeroe]

I really wish square would stop forcing us to buff our magic, when we hardly use it the first place. That job resides with a black mage. I'm tired of being out hit by a ninja, thf, whatever it may be. I just want us to be able to buff attacks while having for once a decent survival rate.

[StingRay104]

Back in the early days there was an experiment going on. They took the best taru whm and taru blm into a room and diced them into pieces. They then feed these pieces to warriors and behold PLD and DRK were born.

PLD the Ultimate shield able to cast holy magic and defend even the weakest of allies against the toughest of foes.

DRK the Ultimate Blade able to debilitate its enemies and then use every ounce of his own existance to smite down any foe. Side effects include elemental magic.

Ok on a serious note, the problem with elemental magic is that t3 or t4 spells aren't meant for us. We drks shouldn't be using blm spells unless they are dark magic spells. If anything we should have our own type of elemental nukes that serve a purpose to debilitate our foes and increase our own advantage. Otherwise what your asking is to be Rdm and well lets face it with rdm asking to be drk if drk starts asking to be rdm we'll be combined into pink mage, and no one wants that.

Absorb Tp used to be so awesome, and yes it needs a buff to it. Another important point is that everything in this game has such ridiculous resistance to dark magic spells, that really needs to be fixed, and soon.


P.S. Drk should get a terror aura at 99, don't you think? Vote Yes.

[Taint2]

If they get rid of the 80% delay cap (like they should) the new JA would be awesome for zergs when you are swinging so fast WSs slow your damage. Anyone that experienced 93.3 can attest to that.

[Leonlionheart]

(like they should)

um........ no

[Dauntless]

The way I see it, we need more dark magic, less elemental magic, adjustments to Scythe weaponskills, and buffs to absorb spells.

[StingRay104]

The way I see it, we need more dark magic, less elemental magic, adjustments to Scythe weaponskills, and buffs to absorb spells.

And Greatsword ws adjustments, after all we are the best with both weapons.

[Urteil]

The way I see it, we need more dark magic, less elemental magic, adjustments to Scythe weaponskills, and buffs to absorb spells.


This, this, this, this, a thousand time this.

[Malacite]

I really wish square would stop forcing us to buff our magic, when we hardly use it the first place. That job resides with a black mage. I'm tired of being out hit by a ninja, thf, whatever it may be. I just want us to be able to buff attacks while having for once a decent survival rate.


Speaking of which, SE kinda screwed up the weapon specializations early on (something they corrected in XIV). Greatsword should really be WAR's primary weapon, with Great Axe as DRK's. DRK looks far, far more menacing holding a giant Executioner's Axe instead of a freaking farmer's tool. But it's far too late to change that now.

Even so, I'm getting sick of seeing Scythes as weapons in RPGs - BECAUSE THEY AREN'T! Developers keep taking the symbolism of the scythe too literally, making it a weapon when it has no business being one. The reason Death is often depicted holding one is because he's the reaper, harvesting our souls and not because scythes are particularly effective at anything other than harvesting wheat!

/rant off

[Dauntless]

Scythes are badass.

/rant

[StingRay104]

Speaking of which, SE kinda screwed up the weapon specializations early on (something they corrected in XIV). Greatsword should really be WAR's primary weapon, with Great Axe as DRK's. DRK looks far, far more menacing holding a giant Executioner's Axe instead of a freaking farmer's tool. But it's far too late to change that now.

Even so, I'm getting sick of seeing Scythes as weapons in RPGs - BECAUSE THEY AREN'T! Developers keep taking the symbolism of the scythe too literally, making it a weapon when it has no business being one. The reason Death is often depicted holding one is because he's the reaper, harvesting our souls and not because scythes are particularly effective at anything other than harvesting wheat!

/rant off

Except in all past FF's with drk's they wield Greatswords, for instance Cecil was a DRK with Greatswords in FF4, and of course Cloud in FF7. Even in fiction whenever a Dark Knight or black knight would appear his main weapon would be a Greatsword. As for scythe and RPG's I partially agree, scythe does look ridiculous. As for the story on the reaper you hit the nail on the head.

[Alhanelem]

I really wish square would stop forcing us to buff our magic, when we hardly use it the first place. They're buffing your magic because they want you to use your magic. Magic would get used if it was better than it is now.

[Dauntless]

They're buffing your magic because they want you to use your magic. Magic would get used if it was better than it is now.

Alright, well then buff them to the point that they make up for the lack of physical buffs we get that results in us getting outdamaged by anything that can melee.

Oh, and while they're at it, give us some sort of refresh so we don't run out of MP after every spell.

While we're on the subject, we should probably get some better spells as well.

Or we could do the rational thing and improve what's inherently our forte, big damage and dark magic, as those are the things we're best at and the things we're seriously lacking.

[Zoner]

They're buffing your magic because they want you to use your magic. Magic would get used if it was better than it is now.

If they want us to use magic how about giving us some unique fast-casting hard-hitting DRK ONLY spells, not some gimp spell other jobs had access to 30 levels ago.

[Dauntless]

Something else you can add to the list. Bio I'd say we should have it, bio 2 is one of our most used dark magic spells

[Coldbrand]

I would have to agree Dark Knight should get access to more DRK only spells and, who would of thought, be the specialist on dark magic.

[Seriha]

Alright, well then buff them to the point that they make up for the lack of physical buffs we get that results in us getting outdamaged by anything that can melee.

Over-exaggerate much? STR is tied with WAR. Highest base ATK with the ability to buff LR beyond Berserk with merits. A lot of the highest damage weapons currently in the game. Another JA on top of that to boost damage based on your HP, that only got better with recent attention. Capping equipment haste with decent x-hit builds are also possible.

While the lack of crit WS not Rampage hurts in Abyssea, outside everyone else loses all those delicious buffs. Even inside, it's possible to gird yourself with the means to deal consistent 2k+ WS mere seconds within each other (...and they're elemental! *gasp*), while Guillotine can fluctuate wildly based on misses or DA/TAs.

I won't throw a tantrum over Insurgency being made a crit WS, if that's on the plate, but saying DRKs are outdamaged by anything else that melees is folly.

[Leonlionheart]

I won't throw a tantrum over Insurgency being made a crit WS, if that's on the plate, but saying DRKs are outdamaged by anything else that melees is folly.

This is where I come in to the thread to say Ukko's Fury says hi.

But Ukko's Fury says hi to everyone I guess...

[Zatias]

The only spells really worth using are Stun, Endark, Drain/II, Aspir/II, Dread Spikes, and in some cases, Absorb-TP. Bio is situational. These are all Dark Magic, the main magical DRK weapon. Casting a shitty nuke for 80% of your MP pool is not worth it. 20 seconds of non-melee no thanks(exaggeration...)

Ability
Soul Tap: Gradually reduces MP for a significant damage increase.
Recast:10min
Duration:5min or until MP reaches 0.

This will increase your damage per swing (and all weaponskills) by maybe 15-20%. Was thinking along the lines of 10mp/tic to upkeep this.

See, now we know we have an MP pool!
^
This would support use of Dark Magic in some ways due to low mp cost for most of the spells, and Aspir to drain the mana needed to keep this ability working. This ability also tells us not to waste our MP on shit nukes. This is where most DRKs go wrong: it is better to "forget" you have an MP pool than waste time on worthless nuking when you could be meleeing. Yes, permanently silenced DRKs do annoy me. No, I don't think that you should pretend to know the function of DRK by nuking.

While I know some fights require kiting, or absorb certain damage types (magical, physical) where nukes may be required, they are too few and far between nowadays.

These are my opinions on DRK which some may find to be factual.

Would also like to see a "Terror" spell as some have suggested. Could function as a secondary stun.

[Seriha]

I won't deny WAR is in an overall better position for damage. Even without Ukko's, RR isn't shabby.

Figure my earlier points stand, though, in that DRK isn't bottom tier and that the only reason people have trouble with the magic side is it wasn't good enough from the start. Those that play the job as a WAR with Stun will never be happy, as that ultimately ignores a chunk of its concept.

[Zoner]

Example Adjustments
A new ability that sacrifices TP gain to make attacks more powerful.
A new ability that raises the amount of damage the dark knight takes, but also raises the amount of magic and elemental weapon skill damage it deals.

The only way i could see this working is if they made this into a "stance", using this hypothetical stance would open up the ability to use previously unavailable physical spells that are "weaponskill-like" complete with skillchains(think like BLU spells). Base the accuracy and destructive potential of these imaginary spells off of a combination dark magic skill, base dmg of weapon equipped, skill of weapon equipped, and gear equipped.

Of course I doubt this would be satisfying to Relic/Mythic/Empyrean holders, so what if they add something to those weapons that would bypass the TP penalty of the stance, or add regain on the lvl 95 upgrades so they could still use weaponskills?

Unfortunately I doubt SE would do all this work for us dark knights, the black sheep of the FFXI family...

[Leonlionheart]

I won't deny WAR is in an overall better position for damage. Even without Ukko's, RR isn't shabby.

Figure my earlier points stand, though, in that DRK isn't bottom tier and that the only reason people have trouble with the magic side is it wasn't good enough from the start. Those that play the job as a WAR with Stun will never be happy, as that ultimately ignores a chunk of its concept.

I approve of this message.

[hiko]

use the 2 new ja, get TP from spell casting, unleash superbuffed WS

[Dauntless]

Over-exaggerate much? STR is tied with WAR. Highest base ATK with the ability to buff LR beyond Berserk with merits. A lot of the highest damage weapons currently in the game. Another JA on top of that to boost damage based on your HP, that only got better with recent attention. Capping equipment haste with decent x-hit builds are also possible.

While the lack of crit WS not Rampage hurts in Abyssea, outside everyone else loses all those delicious buffs. Even inside, it's possible to gird yourself with the means to deal consistent 2k+ WS mere seconds within each other (...and they're elemental! *gasp*), while Guillotine can fluctuate wildly based on misses or DA/TAs.

I won't throw a tantrum over Insurgency being made a crit WS, if that's on the plate, but saying DRKs are outdamaged by anything else that melees is folly.

Fine, not ANYTHING that can melee can out-damage DRKs, I suppose we can still out damage RDMs SMNs SCHs and PLDs.

When I cease to see DRKs consistently out damaged by Nins and THFs is when SE will have given us a real update.

[Coldbrand]

This is where I come in to the thread to say Ukko's Fury says hi.

But Ukko's Fury says hi to everyone I guess...

Ryunohige DRG says sod off.

And this is a thread to discuss Dark Knight so why are you even making such a pointless post?

[Leonlionheart]

Ryunohige DRG says sod off.

And this is a thread to discuss Dark Knight so why are you even making such a pointless post?

All 24 of them sure make a good point.

In terms of the actual update information?

Maybe the new ability could work like restraint, except instead of the more time in between hits to increase WS power, this new DRK thing increases white damage and then WS damage based on how long it took you to get from 0~100% TP. Enough to make it usable (At 80% Haste it would have to be like a 250% damage increase in WS). Unless it triples normal damage, then there's no possible way sacrificing STP would ever be worth it.

I don't know what else there is to discuss; in terms of Melee DD DRK got jipped. In terms of Dark Knight from FF, SE is trying.

[Siiri]

How are they trying? Who in their right mind thinks giving up tp is a good idea? Who uses elemental weaponskills that do 350 damage/ Are they getting a 10x increase? This is pure and utter garbage. There have been a lot of great ideas in the Dark Knight forum to increase magic damage if that is what they want. They honestly have no clue about game mechanics apparently. If they did War would get a serious nerf.

[Leonlionheart]

How are they trying? Who in their right mind thinks giving up tp is a good idea? Who uses elemental weaponskills that do 350 damage/ Are they getting a 10x increase? This is pure and utter garbage. There have been a lot of great ideas in the Dark Knight forum to increase magic damage if that is what they want. They honestly have no clue about game mechanics apparently. If they did War would get a serious nerf.

They're trying to make DRK a melee job that can deal damage at the same time. I agree the TP thing is stupid, but the other is hard to argue with. If they made occult accumen actually useful, and scaling with both mp cost and damage dealt, some things might change.

DRK would have to be doing 800 (outside) or 1.5k (inside) with nukes to make it even acceptable to cast ever, the new ability might do that. Probably not, but I like thinking it's possible.

[Malacite]

^ basically what I said in an earlier post. There's no reason to scrap & forgo DRK's elemental skill altogether, just make it strong enough to maybe pop on a magic burst for extra spike dmg & TP. There's just no reasonable means to make nuking practical for DRK outside of magic bursting anyway so why not?


Another small change I'd love to see that I'm sure has not been mentioned yet is change Blood Weapon to last 1 minute already. It's really, really annoying that to this date Blood Weapon will wear off halfway through Souleater. Again nothing major, just a tiny little adjustment that would be appreciated in a crisis, thanks.

Not what else SE can do really, other than fixing Dark Magic. Maybe some good Greatsword WS that don't require Sneak Attack? (Yes I'm aware of Torcleaver but not everyone is going to bother with that.)

[Duelle]

Back in the early days there was an experiment going on. They took the best taru whm and taru blm into a room and diced them into pieces. They then feed these pieces to warriors and behold PLD and DRK were born.Why does it always have to be tarus. -.-;;

We drks shouldn't be using blm spells unless they are dark magic spells. If anything we should have our own type of elemental nukes that serve a purpose to debilitate our foes and increase our own advantage.I agree with this. You can go one of two ways with it. You can create separate "nukes" that break stats (the way Break Attack, Break Speed, Break MP and so on worked in FF Tactics), or have a seal-type JA that adds to the potency/effect/gives a new effect to Absorbs.

Absorb Tp used to be so awesome, and yes it needs a buff to it. Another important point is that everything in this game has such ridiculous resistance to dark magic spells, that really needs to be fixed, and soon.This I've always been curious about. For being part of two elements that are supposed to be equal, darkness has always had an issue with resists.

[StingRay104]

Why does it always have to be tarus. -.-;;
I agree with this. You can go one of two ways with it. You can create separate "nukes" that break stats (the way Break Attack, Break Speed, Break MP and so on worked in FF Tactics), or have a seal-type JA that adds to the potency/effect/gives a new effect to Absorbs.
This I've always been curious about. For being part of two elements that are supposed to be equal, darkness has always had an issue with resists.

Have you seen the new food for improving magic skill ups stuffed pi-TARU!!!!!! LOL is my first response to seeing that cuz its always tarus.

I love that more drks are finally starting to agree with the idea of new drk nukes that inflict some form of status effect or such. I just hope se catches on.

Originally SE was upset with how easy it was to sleep things so they wanted to make things more challenging so that we couldn't just take a break on something keep it slept regroup and kill, or in some rare cases at the time BLM solo, so they increased mob resistance to dark magic spells, and now that we are suffering from this SE has completely forgotten this. A perfect example of how nerfing doesn't work. Also at the time drks were doing some ridiculous drain dmg, I remember doing over 100 on a drain in the dunes none MB.

[Duelle]

Originally SE was upset with how easy it was to sleep things so they wanted to make things more challenging so that we couldn't just take a break on something keep it slept regroup and kill, or in some rare cases at the time BLM solo, so they increased mob resistance to dark magic spells, and now that we are suffering from this SE has completely forgotten this. A perfect example of how nerfing doesn't work. Also at the time drks were doing some ridiculous drain dmg, I remember doing over 100 on a drain in the dunes none MB.Blanket nerfs are never a wise choice.

Either way, that does explain why lv3 Darkness has always seen higher resists than lv3 Light.

[Malacite]

I agree with this. You can go one of two ways with it. You can create separate "nukes" that break stats (the way Break Attack, Break Speed, Break MP and so on worked in FF Tactics), or have a seal-type JA that adds to the potency/effect/gives a new effect to Absorbs.
This I've always been curious about. For being part of two elements that are supposed to be equal, darkness has always had an issue with resists.


Rasp Drown Choke Burn Frost & Shock say hi.

Again, having them inflict direct damage will be silly since DRK has no native MAB unless SE gives DRK several powerful Magic Burst Bonus traits, which I really think it ought to. Makes for excellent synergy between DRK & SAM too :D

[Arlan]

This proves that Sometimes, the players know the game better than the developers themselves.
How sad is it that the players know more and better at their job than the ones who made it!?

We know what we expect from DRK and we want a lot of what DRk lacks...
But sadly SE doesn't and they giving us useless crap that we don't care for at all...

!!!!!!!!

[Duelle]

Rasp Drown Choke Burn Frost & Shock say hi.I am well aware of the elemental enfeebles accessible to BLM. I'd create a Break line of spells for DRK and have those and the enfeebles stack. Win-win.

[Leonlionheart]

Let DRK cast and swing at the same time?

While casting get DA+X% or STP+X?

Problems solved

[Selzak]

DRK needs more stuns and utility. Also, Dread Spikes should last longer + be weaker.

[StingRay104]

Let DRK cast and swing at the same time?

While casting get DA+X% or STP+X?

Problems solved

Been thru this discussion many times and the end result is always the same. If SE can't do something as simple as raise the hate cap or readjust how hate is done then they sure as hell won't allow us to swing while we cast. Also this argument always leads into the make it drk only realm which would lead all the other jobs that can cast magic and melee saying hey we want that too and then it be less of a drk fix and more of a general fix. Finally it won't change the fact that our nukes have no utility, they are too much mp cost for their bang, to long cast time, and offer us no substantial gain. The whole concept of a drk getting MB dmg after a sc is so flawed anyways because we can general strike hard with our weapons and our swings are faster than the cast time of the spell. I for one have Caladbolg and with LR up and RR + VV atmas my swing rate is almost nonstop (With DA and TA procs) and if I do cast, which I do cast the more useful spells and sometimes ele spells for procs (You'd be surprised how often its t3), I end up losing 2-3 attacks.

[Rezeak]

As long as the tp thing is adjusted right it could be an insane boost for DRK but i guess pple don't see that.

While DRK isn't the strongest DD in abyssea when i have Souleater + LR + aftermath lvl 3 not much gets close to me and it's relentless to be able to buff this further with the TP -> DMG thing could be amazing so plz plz plz add this.

DRK has also been a DD that sacrifices something to do DMG and i'm really glad SE is going down that path again because what it should mean is that the buffs should be the strongest given if the cost is so high.

The magic stuff honestly i rather DRK uses magic to augment it's melee/ws DMG and to overcome the costs of the abiltys it uses to push DRK into a nuking roll seems dumb since meleeing and nuke doesn't work.

Either way the tp thing seems like a good thing and i'd have it but i'd trade the magic thing for SE to go over our existing spells and scale them correctly

[JovialRat]

correct me if im wrong, but out of all the suggestions SE has made for these job adjustments, drks are the only job that has a negative side to it? , like you gain attk bonus but lose tp, you gain magic power but lose def. im sure i didnt read anything from the other jobs losing something to gain something.
if im wrong srry XD

[StingRay104]

correct me if im wrong, but out of all the suggestions SE has made for these job adjustments, drks are the only job that has a negative side to it? , like you gain attk bonus but lose tp, you gain magic power but lose def. im sure i didnt read anything from the other jobs losing something to gain something.
if im wrong srry XD

No your not wrong, except we don't lose def per say but take more dmg as in +pdt or +mdt. Hell I remember when restraint came out and I thought hmm stronger ws's but lose the ability to crit thats fair, then they removed the negative aspect because SE loves war. As for the lose of tp for increased dmg, I'm gettin a little sick of having to force dps as my only means of existance, besides aftermath procs rely upon ws's and it would really hurt empy for us. Then theres the fact we DRK's have been screaming give us MP Attack aka souleater that eats mp instead, for so long now. I think if SE put forth the time and effort they could make it worthwhile, but considering how much of an imbalance they've been making I feel kinda doubtful. PLEASE SE JUST READ WHAT WE ACTUALLY POST.

[wish12oz]

According to a friend, the "French" Version notes say that DRKS will gain 0 TP per hit for the DMG boost. so its not a "nerf to TP Gain", You literally gain no TP.

Not sure if old news.


I like many other drks have worked hard to get my empy (Caladbolg)

I'm not sure which of these comments I think is funnier. I only say that cause Caladbolg is Carabosse path, by far the easiest empyrean.

Anyway, even with this 0 tp gain thing, lets say you have Caladbolg, say TP to 300, WS, use new ability with lvl 3 aftermath. If it triples damage or something, this would be the way to use it, and it would be pretty amazing. Anything less than this and it's gonna be crap though.

[StingRay104]

I'm not sure which of these comments I think is funnier. I only say that cause Caladbolg is Carabosse path, by far the easiest empyrean.

Anyway, even with this 0 tp gain thing, lets say you have Caladbolg, say TP to 300, WS, use new ability with lvl 3 aftermath. If it triples damage or something, this would be the way to use it, and it would be pretty amazing. Anything less than this and it's gonna be crap though.

Well if the nm is dead within 3 mins sure, but its gonna be kinda hard to get aftermath back after that, unless you give up all your good atmas for regain atmas. Also taking a shot at someone just because the empy he has just so happens to be one of the easier paths is kinda low. Finally after taking your shots you then agree with us by saying anything less than triple damage and it would be crap. You do realize this is SE we are talking about, and therefore it is most likely gonna be a niche ability at best, and probably only suitable for multihit weapons. Plus I have a string suspicion that the gains resistance to souleater ability these nms have is gonna affect this ability as well.

[wish12oz]

taking a shot at someone just because the empy he has just so happens to be one of the easier paths is kinda low

Is it? I always thought trying to correct misconceptions was a good thing, and didn't make me some horrible person. Next time I'll try and sugar coat my words for you people who can't handle the simple honest truth and need to be told your special and everyone is equal and has valuable opinions.

[Malacite]

The TP thing could possibly good, but it would have to substantially boost your DPS.

i.e. cut your TP gain in half, but also increase dps 50%. This would actually be insane during a "zerg" scenario since at 80% haste a weaponskill actually ends up just wasting time (unless it's a very strong one) due to the lost swings in the in time it takes for the animation to perform.

But then DRK's always been a fairly strong Zerging job... we need it to be generally useful not just in 1 brief fight.


Also lol @ Abyssea.

[Dauntless]

Except for the mobs with all that Souleater resistance.

Again, I'm tired of these situational uses for DRK. Why can't we just be a good job?

For instance, what's the deal with Diabolical eye? We lose 15% of our HP for 20 accuracy? Warriors naturally get a JA that gives them 25 accuracy for a loss of evasion. More gain, less loss, and ours is a merit. Who thought that would be a good idea?

Giving up HP for accuracy is a DRK fitting JA sure, but the boost is nowhere near worth the sacrifice.

[Leonlionheart]

You know what I never really understood?

Why do people cling to a job so much?

I leveled MNK first so I guess it's never really been an issue for me but, I mean when the 2hander update came around I leveled WAR, was lvling SAM until it had the slight gimp of it's big 3.

I can understand why the job should be fixed, and in no way am I saying to stop playing it, but I mean what's the real difference between WAR gameplay and DRK gameplay?

WAR: BERSERK BLOODRAGE WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS

DRK: LAST RESORT SOULEATER WS WS WS WS WS WS WS stun WS WS WS WS

I'm pretty certain that you'll have fun no matter what job you play. Personally I have the most fun playing a job that does the best damage at the time- I even leveled DRK in anticipation for the last resort update, knowing that it would be a huge boost.

Again, the job needs more- but until then why not play another job D:

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Berserk and blood rage take the same slot.

[Leonlionheart]

Berserk and blood rage take the same slot.

what is this i don't even

blood rage and warcry take the same slot gtfo

[Duelle]

You know what I never really understood?

Why do people cling to a job so much?

I leveled MNK first so I guess it's never really been an issue for me but, I mean when the 2hander update came around I leveled WAR, was lvling SAM until it had the slight gimp of it's big 3.

I can understand why the job should be fixed, and in no way am I saying to stop playing it, but I mean what's the real difference between WAR gameplay and DRK gameplay?

WAR: BERSERK BLOODRAGE WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS

DRK: LAST RESORT SOULEATER WS WS WS WS WS WS WS stun WS WS WS WS

I'm pretty certain that you'll have fun no matter what job you play. Personally I have the most fun playing a job that does the best damage at the time- I even leveled DRK in anticipation for the last resort update, knowing that it would be a huge boost.

Again, the job needs more- but until then why not play another job D:Some people identify more with certain jobs than others. Then you have the fact that not everyone is willing to look away from a problem and go with an alternative when the job can be fixed with the proper changes. That's not including the crowd that likes a job more and has to deal with said job being inferior, inadequate or downright useless. Perhaps its a cultural difference, or maybe it was the developers pushing the envelope, but I don't think the right answer to a problem is to just find an alternative and live with it while the guys in charge either have their heads in the clouds or something else.

It kind of goes back to a joke we used to make about Barbarians in Diablo II: "Whirlwind spec was the most popular because people liked it, not because it was the only viable option." Was even eventually included in the barbarian facts, yet still holds true.

[Urteil]

Except for the mobs with all that Souleater resistance.

Again, I'm tired of these situational uses for DRK. Why can't we just be a good job?

For instance, what's the deal with Diabolical eye? We lose 15% of our HP for 20 accuracy? Warriors naturally get a JA that gives them 25 accuracy for a loss of evasion. More gain, less loss, and ours is a merit. Who thought that would be a good idea?

Giving up HP for accuracy is a DRK fitting JA sure, but the boost is nowhere near worth the sacrifice.

Diabolic Eye is a total joke, and needs to be deleted or re-written.

[Dauntless]

Rant about why everyone should be the same

Duelle nailed it. People identify with some jobs more than others. Playing both MNK and WAR makes my stomache hurt for whatever reason. I really just don't like them. Why should I be forced to play one job over another just because SE fucked up on some jobs and overpowered others?

[Leonlionheart]

I never said don't play it, I never said everyone should be the same, I was asking a question.

The gameplay is NEARLY the same. DRG gets to jump, DRK gets to stun, while SAM and WAR are essentially the COMPLETE same. Seriously, just one does more damage and looks different. And while you should fight to fix your jobs, I don't see the need to not have all of them leveled just so you can be at the top for whatever SE brings your way. The only real difference between the jobs is 1. Damage output, and 2. aesthetics. They look different.

Did you wear Walahra Turban because it looked good?

I understand why people want a job to get better, I would love DRK to get better because I love the way it looks. Till then I'm playing WAR.

Now if you had spent 5 years obtaining a Mythic or Relic weapon, I can see why you could complain. However, 85% of the people complaining play casually and with Abyssea you can get the best gear in less than a day.

Question: What is it about WAR that could possibly make you sick? MNK I can understand because TP is so slow in comparison, but WAR? Doesn't make sense since you're literally doing the same thing as a DRK would do.

[StingRay104]

I never said don't play it, I never said everyone should be the same, I was asking a question.

The gameplay is NEARLY the same. DRG gets to jump, DRK gets to stun, while SAM and WAR are essentially the COMPLETE same. Seriously, just one does more damage and looks different. And while you should fight to fix your jobs, I don't see the need to not have all of them leveled just so you can be at the top for whatever SE brings your way. The only real difference between the jobs is 1. Damage output, and 2. aesthetics. They look different.

Did you wear Walahra Turban because it looked good?

I understand why people want a job to get better, I would love DRK to get better because I love the way it looks. Till then I'm playing WAR.

Now if you had spent 5 years obtaining a Mythic or Relic weapon, I can see why you could complain. However, 85% of the people complaining play casually and with Abyssea you can get the best gear in less than a day.

Question: What is it about WAR that could possibly make you sick? MNK I can understand because TP is so slow in comparison, but WAR? Doesn't make sense since you're literally doing the same thing as a DRK would do.

So you come on a DRK thread and tell us all to lvl war?

You say that DRK and war are the same?

You are very ignorant about DRK. First off DRK does have mp and that cna lead to several advatages. Absorb TP means faster ws's, Drain I & II means longer life, Dread spikes means mild tanking, and endark means more dmg. Second we are the premier stunners as we are the only job with 2 native stuns. Finally you play DRK and war completely different.

I would never ever say to someone stop complaining and level this job instead because this game is about having fun and if you enjoy the job then your having fun. Now imagine if you enjoy the job but SE is constantly buffing everyone else's jobs to god level and not helping your? Then you'd be upset. Now you have war lvl 90 so obviously your not complaining because you have the mother of all broken jobs at level 90. The rest of us are rather upset at SE because they keep messing up the balance of the game.

I too have mnk lvl 90 and I enjoy playing mnk, however I enjoy PUP and DRK far more, and war just upsets me, even before abyssea getting it to 37 was very annoying. Still if someone was complaining about a job I would never tell them go level PUP or DRK because I like them more or go level mnk and war because they deal the most damage because thats not the issue, the issue is balance.

[Camate]

Don’t fret dark knights! These example adjustments are just that…examples. It doesn’t mean that every single thing is going to be implemented as stated. All of your suggestions and opinions on these concepts will be relayed to the development team and they will of course consider them when actually creating the adjustments to be implemented. Just keep in mind that their concept of dark knight, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice something in return for something else.

[Raxiaz]

But casting magic isn't something that DRKs excel at. It's not the way DRK is played by a majority of the players. I don't have to have it leveled to 90 to know that.

[Airget]

But casting magic isn't something that DRKs excel at. It's not the way DRK is played by a majority of the players. I don't have to have it leveled to 90 to know that.

You're stuck in the box. You need to step outside and consider how having different damage types can be used to ones advantage. People are getting to stuck on the fact that they could take more damage for the sake of dealing more magical damage but fail to realize that there are instances where maybe magic is the only form of damage possible or an enemies AOE is threatening so it's better to stand back and attack from afar.

You also need to keep in mind DRK does have Occult amen, so what if with this ability in mind, while the first one they consider lowers TP gains, the one where you can deal more magical based damage but take more damage could increase the amount of TP you gain through occult amen. The JA they had in mind says nothing about lowering your offensive power or anything like that but a chance to enhance your magical damage.

Comments like this just don't consider the advantage of being versatile in combat. It's better to be able to do magic and melee damage cause sure while maybe your magic isn't as strong you aren't hindered by mobs with high evasion, that resist melee damage, or use PLD/THF 2hrs multiple times. In all those instances you may find yourself able to perform better by activating the JA that would increase your dmg you take for the ability to dish out more damage with your magic.

[StingRay104]

Thank you Camate for at least answering us, I can speak for everyone who has posted or read this when I say that any response from SE is welcome. I still really hope that they take more ideas from the DRK forum or at least base ideas from there. Also as stated the magic ability would be a decent idea if used as a stance with the other side being a more physical side, kinda like Hasso/seigan being offensive and defensive but with drk being pure damage just physical and magical. Finally please come up with some new nukes for drk only, ones that play the role of enfeebling an opponent while doing some extra damage.

[Finuve]

im all for sacrificing to gain, as long as the gains arent elemental in nature

[Horadrim]

Seems that way. Ha.

Get 100 TP.
Activate Ability
???
Profit.

I think the ??? is obvious.



You're stuck in the box. You need to step outside and consider how having different damage types can be used to ones advantage. People are getting to stuck on the fact that they could take more damage for the sake of dealing more magical damage but fail to realize that there are instances where maybe magic is the only form of damage possible or an enemies AOE is threatening so it's better to stand back and attack from afar.

You also need to keep in mind DRK does have Occult amen, so what if with this ability in mind, while the first one they consider lowers TP gains, the one where you can deal more magical based damage but take more damage could increase the amount of TP you gain through occult amen. The JA they had in mind says nothing about lowering your offensive power or anything like that but a chance to enhance your magical damage.

Comments like this just don't consider the advantage of being versatile in combat. It's better to be able to do magic and melee damage cause sure while maybe your magic isn't as strong you aren't hindered by mobs with high evasion, that resist melee damage, or use PLD/THF 2hrs multiple times. In all those instances you may find yourself able to perform better by activating the JA that would increase your dmg you take for the ability to dish out more damage with your magic.

One possibility would be allowing Dark Knight to convert any damage into the element of their choice... Effectively allowing them to do things like deal unresisted magic damage based on their STR/ATK by sacrificing TP gain. Would effectively let them bypass high mob defense and deal massive damage in the element of their choosing.

Just an idea

[Duelle]

Don’t fret dark knights! These example adjustments are just that…examples. It doesn’t mean that every single thing is going to be implemented as stated. All of your suggestions and opinions on these concepts will be relayed to the development team and they will of course consider them when actually creating the adjustments to be implemented. Just keep in mind that their concept of dark knight, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice something in return for something else.I don't think anyone here is opposed to making sacrifices for boosts on DRK. The approach is what is angering people. Sacrificing TP means that you're making the 5-hit builds even more important to DRK play than before, and you're therefore inflating the value of store TP and haste (even more than they already are). Sacrificing TP gain for boosted auto-attacks doesn't do much when the majority of damage is actually through weapon skills (hence all the complaints about the lack of a crit WS for use in abyssea). Buffing elemental magic use is simply a bad idea since you'd need to build DRK use of elemental magic from the ground up due to them not having any native caster traits (unless you're looking to introduce the mechanics that would make this possible through gear, at which I'll be very disappointed). Then you have cast times on spells that are not stun, which so far the developers have not done anything about.

That being said, thanks for trying to reassure the DRK players out there. Now please do me a favor and do the same for the Thief and Red Mage players. DRKs aren't the only ones negatively reacting to this manifesto of yours.

[Leonlionheart]

So you come on a DRK thread and tell us all to lvl war?

You say that DRK and war are the same?

You are very ignorant about DRK. First off DRK does have mp and that cna lead to several advatages. Absorb TP means faster ws's, Drain I & II means longer life, Dread spikes means mild tanking, and endark means more dmg. Second we are the premier stunners as we are the only job with 2 native stuns. Finally you play DRK and war completely different.

I would never ever say to someone stop complaining and level this job instead because this game is about having fun and if you enjoy the job then your having fun. Now imagine if you enjoy the job but SE is constantly buffing everyone else's jobs to god level and not helping your? Then you'd be upset. Now you have war lvl 90 so obviously your not complaining because you have the mother of all broken jobs at level 90. The rest of us are rather upset at SE because they keep messing up the balance of the game.

I too have mnk lvl 90 and I enjoy playing mnk, however I enjoy PUP and DRK far more, and war just upsets me, even before abyssea getting it to 37 was very annoying. Still if someone was complaining about a job I would never tell them go level PUP or DRK because I like them more or go level mnk and war because they deal the most damage because thats not the issue, the issue is balance.
I get the feeling you think that absorb tp is worth casting when you are engaged. You should be getting that much tp anyway from normal swings, depending on caladbolg/scythe, the delay of actual spell and afterdelay leads to less tp. I mentioned stuns being the only thing different, and it still is. All 2 handers are just buff, swing, ws. Drk and drg are only different in jump and stun. Drains and spikes are only worth casting out of battle, along with endark.

So essentially people play the job of their choice for the aesthetics. Not the gameplay.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, you can keep playing DRK and DRG and SAM, but having the option of WAR just for abyssea, since its really nothing different, just much better, shouldn't be an insult. Everything is much more level outside anyway.

[Elexia]

Don’t fret dark knights! These example adjustments are just that…examples. It doesn’t mean that every single thing is going to be implemented as stated. All of your suggestions and opinions on these concepts will be relayed to the development team and they will of course consider them when actually creating the adjustments to be implemented. Just keep in mind that their concept of dark knight, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice something in return for something else.

Indeed. I'd so nuke you on my DRK but it would do no damage. As stated, it's mainly the fact it seems a lot of DRK adjustments are gravitating toward our elemental nature when no one harnesses said nature.

[Gotterdammerung]

What is wrong with all of you =/

You don't even know what the bonus in damage is yet.

yes typically more dmg is done thru WS's than thru melee swings. But this ability is supposed to spike your melee swings. They could very easily surpass WS damage. Especially when used in conjunction with drks newfound superhastability, souleater, high crit rate, and high crit dmg.

And as for a magic boost. Just because you like to play "your" drk like a warrior doesnt mean everyone feels that way. Again you don't even know what your booing at. In exchange for taking more damage per hit, you get an unknown bonus to casting damge and magic WS damage. It could be a million % boost, and you wouldn't know because you /panic boo'd b4 it even hit the ground. But Even at a moderate bonus it could still work wonders with drain II stacked with wat alredy exists. It could bring darks brew potential to competitive. It could be useful in situations where melee WS's don't cut it. And its quite possible drk could get tier IV's or something stronger by 99 and who knows what this skill could bring that potency up too. I don't see any pld's complaining about there recent magic dmg boost... i guess they like 4-7k holy's. Since when is versatility a bad thing? Oh yeh i forgot, since people decided the game should be mindless.

Did u know that with occult accumen gear and about 30 store tp you can get 100 tp return from casting impact? And theres several spots left over for fast cast gear and/or magacc. I know its an expensive casting but how many times have u wasted temp ethers. and elixers in abyssea? stop complaining about how worthless your casting abilities are and start owning them.

[Dauntless]

I never said don't play it, I never said everyone should be the same, I was asking a question.

The gameplay is NEARLY the same. DRG gets to jump, DRK gets to stun, while SAM and WAR are essentially the COMPLETE same. Seriously, just one does more damage and looks different. And while you should fight to fix your jobs, I don't see the need to not have all of them leveled just so you can be at the top for whatever SE brings your way. The only real difference between the jobs is 1. Damage output, and 2. aesthetics. They look different.

Did you wear Walahra Turban because it looked good?

I understand why people want a job to get better, I would love DRK to get better because I love the way it looks. Till then I'm playing WAR.

Now if you had spent 5 years obtaining a Mythic or Relic weapon, I can see why you could complain. However, 85% of the people complaining play casually and with Abyssea you can get the best gear in less than a day.

Question: What is it about WAR that could possibly make you sick? MNK I can understand because TP is so slow in comparison, but WAR? Doesn't make sense since you're literally doing the same thing as a DRK would do.

Alright, so your point is that even if we like the job, since it's been underdeveloped and nerfed we should simply play the popular job even if we don't like it?

I spent roughly 2 years getting DRK to 75 when I first started playing and a couple months getting WAR to 75 when ToAU came out. I know the ins and outs of DRK and it is in no way the same as WAR. At least, it wasn't designed to be.

Naturally less strong than Warriors, we use Dark Magic and sacrifice HP and defense to equip ourselves with strength far beyond that of the natural strength of Warriors for high spike numbers. We use absorb spells that significantly increases our damage for a short period of time. We have to use perfect timing to stun mobs with deadly TP moves. We were naturally weaker than Warriors, but we were versatile and able to dish out more spike damage at will.

Now? Absorb spells do nothing. Everything is resistant to Souleater. Dark Magic is easily resisted, and SE wants to throw elemental magic at us?

Perfect example: Warrior in Besieged in full AF3+2 was spamming Ukko's Fury for 4-6k. DRK also in full AF3+2 was using Quietus and I didn't see him hit anything higher than 3k. With Souleater. Why the hell is that fair?

My point is this: DD's in general used to be similar, and they all had their ups and downs. Some were better than others, but by no huge margin. Now it's war/mnk or gtfo, and I despise that.

[Francisco]

Just keep in mind that their concept of dark knight, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice something in return for something else.

Like sacrificing being a good DD in exchange for looking cool?

Sorry, had to go there.

[Leonlionheart]

My point is this: DD's in general used to be similar, and they all had their ups and downs. Some were better than others, but by no huge margin. Now it's war/mnk or gtfo, and I despise that.

I agree, it's not good that the game is that way. However there will ALWAYS be a better job, perfect balance is completely impossible. It's not SE's job to make everyone equal, but to make them unique in their role so much that they are desired, and that's where the problem is. WAR: top DD, no defense. MNK: powerful DD, high defense. PLD: No DD, top defense. DRK: hi guyz i have magic but am gonna play like a war anyway, and if you dare tell me to cast magic I WILL EAT YOUR BRAINS.

That's the issue: as long as DRK maximizes damage in the same way as WAR, DRG, and SAM, the jobs will completely blend in to each other and there will always be a clear winner. It was RNG, it was SAM, now it's WAR.

I think that SE realizes this, and that's why they are trying to bring both DRK and DRG in different directions (DRG into a more enmity control position, which would make it prime for tank and spank fights considering it's accuracy.)

I don't think SE is going about changing DRK in the right way though, and it's very difficult to see how to fix it. Although like I have suggested in the past I think an ability where DRK could swing during casting and not be dragged down by the delay after cast, then that would really make DRK's magical capabilities shine while keeping the DD side happy. (Animation wise the DRK could still look like he's casting and his/her weapon could fly like an animated weapon. Too grandiose? See: Retribution. So no telling me that's the drawback. )

[Dauntless]

I agree, it's not good that the game is that way. However there will ALWAYS be a better job, perfect balance is completely impossible. It's not SE's job to make everyone equal, but to make them unique in their role so much that they are desired, and that's where the problem is. WAR: top DD, no defense. MNK: powerful DD, high defense. PLD: No DD, top defense. DRK: hi guyz i have magic but am gonna play like a war anyway, and if you dare tell me to cast magic I WILL EAT YOUR BRAINS.

That's the issue: as long as DRK maximizes damage in the same way as WAR, DRG, and SAM, the jobs will completely blend in to each other and there will always be a clear winner. It was RNG, it was SAM, now it's WAR.

I think that SE realizes this, and that's why they are trying to bring both DRK and DRG in different directions (DRG into a more enmity control position, which would make it prime for tank and spank fights considering it's accuracy.)

I don't think SE is going about changing DRK in the right way though, and it's very difficult to see how to fix it. Although like I have suggested in the past I think an ability where DRK could swing during casting and not be dragged down by the delay after cast, then that would really make DRK's magical capabilities shine while keeping the DD side happy.

It's not that we don't like to cast magic. It's that our elemental magic isn't worth the time nor mp and the dark magic is ineffective and easily resisted.

Give us some effective magic and we sure as hell will use it. It's not that we want to play like warriors, it's that any other style of playing is inefficient since our casting side is horribly lacking.

When I played DRK, the absorbs and drains were worth using. Now? Not at all. Not even close.

The Absorb spells either need a buff or an Absorb II series that doesn't decay and gives a larger boost. Also, seeing as we're the first job to get most dark magic spells, I wouldn't see it too farfetched for us to get Bio III. Buffing drain or giving us a 3rd drain would be welcome because the drains have become mostly ineffective.

I would also LOVE to see a spell that converts a mobs HP to your MP. Like Aspir, but instead of draining MP it drains HP. Due to the lack of mobs actually having MP, aspir is often ineffective. With this spell, you could drain MP on any mob. I don't see any way this could be broken.

As well as this, making Dread Spikes weaker, lengthening it's effect, and lowering its casting time would be lovely because as is, it's to be casted before a fight and it lasts for a few seconds then you're not to use it again until the next fight thanks to the long casting time preventing you from having any hopes of recasting it during a fight.

These are just some magic related suggestions off the top of my head. Notice how they're all oriented towards dark magic. That's because we're DARK KNIGHTS. Dark Magic is our forte, and we're lacking in it. I don't want more elemental magic, I need Dark magic. I'm fairly certain most DRKs will agree.

Edit: Being able to swing during casting would be welcome. It's a great idea.

[Gotterdammerung]

Swing during casting for darks. More than reasonable fix.

[Dauntless]

We get Drain 1 at level 10. Why shouldn't we get at least Drain 3 by level 99?

[Malamasala]

Swing during casting for darks. More than reasonable fix.

Yea, it always amazes me how SE can overlook that simple solution.

It is also the reason I claim SMN is better designed for melee than DRK is. You trigger a BP, which is an instant JA, then you keep on swinging. If SMN and DRK shared stats and weapons, but differed in magic, SMN would come out top. DRK would benefit greatly from not being stuck in casting animation.

[Leonlionheart]

I'd make a topic about it on the DRK forums, but I've never seen a job-specific forum get very much attention. It'd probably get more views here in general, but I don't like to be the guy posting about something in general that has it's own forum section.

[StingRay104]

Wow I woke up and the thread has completely lost it. Seriously what the hell happened here. SMN better than DRK at melee, swing while casting the simple fix, and leonlionheart is still thinking he knows about DRK, this is unreal.

For those of you who don't know let me re-educate you on DRK. PLD and DRK are 2 sides of the same coin, one deals in holy magic the other in arcane magic. One deals in defense the other in attack. In essence PLD is supposed to be the ultimate shield, and DRK the ultimate blade. Now we also have access to magic, and we use this magic to help us achieve our respected roles, for instance pld has flash for hate control, cures and reprisal for longevity, and phalanx, protect and shell for defense. DRK however has a different way of using its magic, it takes from its enemy to make himself stronger. Drain and aspir are self explained, but others are dread spikes (able to drain the damage one receives to 1/2 your current total hp from attacker), Absorb stat spells, and of course Absorb TP (it really does need its own category cuz not everything always has tp). DRK also has 3 other very useful spells called sleep, endark and stun. Aside from these job enhancing spells these 2 jobs have other spells that have very limited to no use, for instance PLD has the banish line of spells which are useless given the degree pld can use them. They also have enlight and holy, altho enlight could add some more damage to pld its effect is minimal and holy on pld has only 1 use, yellow proc. DRK also has spells like that, being the tier 1-3 nukes. Meant for use on blm but given to drk just because SE had no other idea for spells and felt it would be nice to give them something (Ok originally SE had a lot of stock put into SC/MB and DRK was supposed to utilize that for additional damage but nowadays that's just too much of a hassle as the damage isn't worth the time or the mp). Now some of your are saying "What about bio?" Well thats simple, mostly people want the def down from Dia and Bio and Dia cancel each other out, so in an alliance situation Dia is used, and for soloing I can't Imagine a DRK wanting to keep a dot on something just incase they need to sleep it so therefore bio is kinda useless. Poison is an interesting spell, for one its intended purpose is useless as it doesn't help an pretty much all applications, but the spell itself is a very good way to pull mobs so that you don't waste stun.

Now for all you wars out there you really have lost what your job is supposed to be. War was the original tank job but it was always intended that PLD replace it in this role, so war was the all purpose melee. You have both strong offensive and defensive capabilities, berserk and defender, warcry and retaliation. Now SE also made sure that you would hold your own as a front liner with double attack, attack bonus, crit attack bonus and fencer, but they also gave you some defensive traits also 2 tiers of def bonus, shield defense, shield mastery and resist virus (I kno rite). Now DRK on the other hand has only offensive capabilities, everything it does is for pure damage, even its 1 semi defensive spell Dread Spikes, yet you all are saying war is supposed to be king of the mountain on damage. We have tier 5 attack bonus, LR, souleater, and critical attack bonus. We can cap attack so easily but that doesn't matter in this game. SE really doesn't know what its doing atm and we DRK's are upset that we are constantly being shoved out of our jobs spot, we are supposed to be the highest damage you'll ever see, but we kill oursleves to do that. Its ultimate physical power at a cost, thats our niche.

Now to address those that I called out. First and foremost, smn will never be as good of a melee as DRK, not now, not ever, and I feel sorry for anyone who thinks otherwise. As for the subtle point hidden in your post see the next response.

As for the melee while casting fix, SE has said, and the post is still easy to find, that a complete rework of the enmity systems is not possible. Now if SE can't do something as simple as implement a enmity change/fix, then how the hell do you expect them to implement this? As for it being a simple fix, let me cruch that notion right now, there are no easy fixes for drk atm, we need several fixes (arguably each one being somewhat easy) and until we get that and our balance is restored then there will continue to be problems.

Leonlionheart. Please understand that you know nothing about how a DRK plays. Now you are a war and you enjoy war and there is nothing wrong with that so please leave the DRKs issues to the DRKs and we will leave the wars issues to the wars. However in response to your previous post, yes people are tired of not getting the interaction with the devs that they were promised so everything has seemed to been shifted to the general section for some answers. Interestingly enough according to the job forums, they were created so that players (no mention of the devs) can discuss their jobs and ideas to fix them, but the general section is for contact with the devs. I know and I agree it should be in the job specific forums but hey if SE wants it in general I guess we posting in general now for some answers.

[Dauntless]

Playing DRK again as a lowbie I realize again what SE had in mind for DRK. On no other lowbie job can I dish out weaponskills for 200 (Level 10), but I have the defense of a kitten. It seems as time went on, SE lost that vision and here we are. We still have the defense of a kitten, but now we also have the strength of a dead chicken.

[Panthera]

The "Absorb" series of spells is in many ways the heart and soul, as morbid as they are, of the job. Dark Knight can absorb just about anything; base stats, HP, MP, TP, and Accuracy. And yet the ability to absorb Attack is missing. Dark Knight is defined by it's Attack stat as much as anything else; it's even a Job Trait. So what could be more essential to the job than to combine Absorbing with the Attack stat? It's also worth considering Absorbing the enemy's Evasion and Defense. Perhaps a super spell that absorbs several things at once? Similar to the effect of the Weapon Skill "Full Break."

[StingRay104]

Lots of people (Myself included) have suggested absorb att, and it really should be made a spell, as well as the other stats not mentioned, def, eva, Matt, and Mdef. Another popular idea is DRK only nukes that have status effects on them, kinda like a mini impact (which has all base stats down 20%) except more mp proficient. It would be cool to have some other ideas of spells that went along these lines but it also needs to consider the DRK's main role, killing things.

[Unctgtg]

Learn to adapt to play the job at its max.

[Malamasala]

Playing DRK again as a lowbie I realize again what SE had in mind for DRK. On no other lowbie job can I dish out weaponskills for 200 (Level 10), but I have the defense of a kitten. It seems as time went on, SE lost that vision and here we are. We still have the defense of a kitten, but now we also have the strength of a dead chicken.

I don't know. I think most armors still are PLD/WAR/DRK, so you got the defense of a Paladin, and the strength of a dead chicken. Naturally, defense is pretty pointless and useless.

[Dauntless]

Learn to adapt to play the job at its max.

Yeah, that's the problem. Its "max" is pathetic. The way DRK is right now, there really is nothing to adapt to.

[Leonlionheart]

StingRay104

wut

1: I been saying that about DRK all this time. The only problem is none of those spells are worth casting. If you cast Absorb-anything other than tp then you are severely gimping your DRK. Absorb-Accuracy maybe if you have a NIN or DNC tank. Dread Spikes is pre-battle. Drains are a destruction of your DPS, unless you absolutely need them for your HP. So I ask, how in hell is swinging while casting a bad idea? It lets you be the melee you always wanted, while being the arcane master you always wanted.

2: WAR hasn't been intended for tank capabilities since a very long time ago. Everything past level 25(defender) should lead you to believe that WAR is nothing other than an amazing DD. Seriously, access to 2 of the top WS (Rampage and Raging Rush) along with Double Attack makes WAR what it is. Not to mention Warcry, Berserk, and the famous Steel Cyclone + Warrior's Charge + SA. You'd notice this when you realize that WAR gets pummeled by everything. DRK is a more survivable tank than WAR is.

You have to be completely ignorant to say that WAR could possibly be intended for tank after a certain point. Provoke and Defender are nice, but that's all they were, and they aren't anymore. Neither of them are even close to useful at this point.

Enmity reworking is not possible because it would break the way the game is played, and it would break levels 1~75 where PLD or NIN, or anyone else who wants to tank really, have no real issues keeping hate in most situations. It's not a coding problem iirc. Not an implementation problem, though there may be some issues with that, rather than a battle system breaking problem.

Swinging while casting for one job isn't really a complete reworking of the battle system, now is it?

StingRay104 please understand that you know nothing of how damage is dealt. It's like there are no real players in the DRK player base, just fanboys who think that their spells can do something as they are now. They are nice, but only absorb-TP and dread spikes, and only while disengaged. (and obviously stun and, though rarely, sleep.)

[StingRay104]

So lemme get this straight, war/pld/drk all have access to the super heavy gear, and the good -dmg gear, war also sports the shield abilities that pld has, and war also gets 2 tiers of defense + and defender yet a drk is a better tank than a DRK?

Sounds silly now doesn't it, I thought I explained it very well when I said DRK's only defensive ability was dread spikes, yet this one thing apparently negates all the defensive abilities war has because you say so. Sure you probably don't want to use this stuff after all your a war all you do is berserk blood rage ws ws ws ws ws ws, to hell with anything else right?

I also explained quite clearly why melee while casting wouldn't work because it is along those same lines as the enmity cap problem, and SE specifically said that they couldn't do that due to issues involving the game. Also it won't change the fact that our nukes and yes you were right our absorbs atm aren't worth casting, which is one of the hot topics we DRKs keep bringing up for SE to fix (our absorbs not nukes, too much mp to consider using).

Btw I know a lot more about DRK than you and I think its sad that someone who just joins jobs because they are the new hot damage jobs is pretty pathetic. I like to fully utilize all the jobs capabilities, example when I play mnk I don't just impetus ws ws ws ws, I use all those job abilities, counterstance, boost, focus, dodge, chakra, chi blast, and of course perfect counter. I take full advantage of my jobs capabilities and not just do what all the cool kids are doing. As for my knowledge of damage, I know lots about damage, for instance until the big souleater nerf DRK was the king of damage thanks to KC zergs. Altho magic can be useful it has never been effective part of DRKs repitoire which is why we DRKs have been asking SE to stop trying to push all this increase elemental bs on us.

Finally once again I'm gonna say it clearly, you know nothing about DRK, please leave your misconceptions about the job somewhere else and go back to spamming your ws's on war. Shame really if you were really all about the ws's you'd probably play sam, but now sam is going back to sc master.

[Leonlionheart]

*spouting really amateur arguments*

Holy crap the ignorance is unbearable.

ITT: Defense is a good stat.

Edit: To expand, there's a reason why PLDs don't use defender either. Defense has severely diminishing returns, and at high levels it's completely useless. That's why MNKs can go counterstance crazy, because the difference between 900 defense and 90 defense is probably only 50~100 damage on high level mobs (Rani says hi, especially to mnks because he has en-dispel, preventing counterstance from being a viable tank solution).

However DRK gets this cool thing that completely negates the mob's offensive stats by draining an amount based on the amount of damage done! Oh and DRK can cure itself with Drains!

Do you guys know what that means? DRK can take more damage!

It's like I'm talking to someone who's played the game for all of 2 months. Learn how stuff is done before you go spouting nonsense.

You keep telling me I know nothing about DRK, yet you say the things I've already said about the job.

Also: until I hear a definitive answer from SE (Camate I need you), I don't believe that enmity mechanics and swinging while casting mechanics have anything to do with each other. Logically they shouldn't have anything to do code wise, I have no idea why you insist they are even similar. Please stop that, you sound so silly right now.

I can however believe that it can't be done because swinging mechanics and casting mechanics have very little to do with each other, but again that's up to how SE coded the game.

[Korpg]

Geeze Kurttray, you are a little "WAR envy" aren't ya?

[Riggs]

Be nice if drk got the double attack trait, would give them the option to use different subs

[Korpg]

I wouldn't mind giving all jobs DA trait as long as WAR gets higher tiers.

[Leonlionheart]

Be nice if drk got the double attack trait, would give them the option to use different subs

DRK should always be using SAM anyway.

[StingRay104]

Holy crap the ignorance is unbearable.

ITT: Defense is a good stat.

Edit: To expand, there's a reason why PLDs don't use defender either. Defense has severely diminishing returns, and at high levels it's completely useless. That's why MNKs can go counterstance crazy, because the difference between 900 defense and 90 defense is probably only 50~100 damage on high level mobs (Rani says hi, especially to mnks because he has en-dispel, preventing counterstance from being a viable tank solution).

However DRK gets this cool thing that completely negates the mob's offensive stats by draining an amount based on the amount of damage done! Oh and DRK can cure itself with Drains!

Do you guys know what that means? DRK can take more damage!

It's like I'm talking to someone who's played the game for all of 2 months. Learn how stuff is done before you go spouting nonsense.

You keep telling me I know nothing about DRK, yet you say the things I've already said about the job.

Also: until I hear a definitive answer from SE (Camate I need you), I don't believe that enmity mechanics and swinging while casting mechanics have anything to do with each other. Logically they shouldn't have anything to do code wise, I have no idea why you insist they are even similar. Please stop that, you sound so silly right now.

I can however believe that it can't be done because swinging mechanics and casting mechanics have very little to do with each other, but again that's up to how SE coded the game.

So you think that editing what I said in the quote is professional? Not to mention you think I'm ignorant, but thats fine think what you like, I honestly could care less about what you think, your nothing more than a bandwagon DD, and no Korpg thats not a shot at war this guy believes in switching jobs to the highest damaging job at the time. Now I've personally witnessed wars tanking mobs my DRK and its almighty dread spikes can't tank so your point remains invalid. Now I'm not saying dread spikes suck because its a great spell, 2nd most used DRK spell in the game, stun of course being number 1. Now for something you didn't know, mobs in the game have high resistance to dark magic spells, its why my drains with capped dark magic skill and merits can't keep a consistant amount drained, and they only max at 200 hp on drain 1 no nether void. How often does that happen, not often enough, so your idea that DRK can effectively heal itself is invalid. I suppose it probably doesn't matter to you that the recast time on drains and aspirs is also ridiculous, but hey that would imply you knew something about DRK, which I maintained from the beginning you had no clue. Finally dread spikes acts just like dark magic spells, it pits your dark magic skill versus their resistance to determine what % of damage you can absorb. One of the nice things about Bale Cuirass +2 is it boosts the amount of total damage it can drain, and it also I've notice I hit the higher percents more easily with this on, but the grand total it can drain is equal to half your hp total 62.4% with Bale Cuirass +2. This does not include TP attacks or attacks that can KO the DRK before it drains. I noticed you mentioned nothing about the wars ability to wield shields or -pdt armor, DRK can match on the armor for -pdt but DRK can't compete with wars ability to use a shield. So despite all the evidence thats plain as day you refuse to accept that perhaps war can do more than you previously thought, but honestly idc what you think as I stated before.

However I find your closing statement the funniest part of your whole post. After debating that swinging while casting would in fact be a simple fix to DRK, and might I add claiming that I was a supporter of elemental nuking on DRK which I have never supported for many reasons involving that damage thing I supposedly know nothing about, after all that you say what I said. You said "I can however believe that it can't be done," due to swinging and spellcasting having little to do with one another. I just think its funny that after all the immaturity you come right out and agree with me, of course after you've taken your shots.

Finally Korpg, how is defending my jobs unique qualities and the origins of the DRK in FFXI even remotely war envy? Am I upset that war can spam 10k ws's in abyssea, yes because the balance is broken due to things like that. You know me I hate having the balance broken in this game, its why I support so much of what your trying to do in the smn forums, with the exception of your comment about it being equal to call a smn a main healer as often as a thf a main healer.

[Leonlionheart]

More of nothing

All stuff that I know, however still more than WAR has. But FFS anyone can tank in Abyssea, don't use that as an example DRK has way more survivability there. You still stand by WAR being more defensive than DRK, and that's just stupid. Stop it.

I'm not agreeing with you, I'm saying that it could be impossible due to other reasons than you said. Stop nitpicking.

I don't think I can continue arguing with you, since you don't seem to know anything about what you're talking about.

[Leonlionheart]

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/topics/backnumber/detail/060330_1.html

Thanks to someone from the SMN version of this thread for the link.

So SE hasn't considered WAR for defense, since 5 years ago.

DRK was meant to cast more, making it a unique job, since 5 years ago.

The fact that they're still not achieved is disconcerting, although WAR did indeed get out of the /nin slum (at which time it was still not meant to tank, though had more defensive properties than it does now from ni). Thank God.

DRK only uses Great Sword again, hello Caladbolg.

[StingRay104]

I can however believe that it can't be done because swinging mechanics and casting mechanics have very little to do with each other, but again that's up to how SE coded the game.

You said it can't be done, I said it can't be done, we may disagree on the reason but we both agree that it can't be done. Even if we disagree with the manner, we still agree on the result which is what I meant and clearly demonstrated.

So you dug up some article stating that war is no longer for defense and DRK is meant to cast more, well actually it states meant to use its drk exclusive spells more. Tell me something I didn't already know. Its funny how well SE's plans turned out, war throws their axes, not really, DRK uses their unique spells, not so much, thf's 2hr gets damage to it, lol, man SE sure can drop the ball. Its almost as if we really need to let them know what we think of their ideas, so as to help the job become what it was intended to be and something we can all enjoy. Or we can bandwagon to the job that deals the most damage.

Well I'd say I'd miss dealing with your ignorance but really its all for the best, so I bid you farewell, and may you have more fruitful conversations elsewhere.

[Leonlionheart]

:| I said maybe it can't be done, and that would be more of a reason than enmity lulz.

I can't believe how stubborn you are.

[StingRay104]

:| I said maybe it can't be done, and that would be more of a reason than enmity lulz.

I can't believe how stubborn you are.

If I'm the stubborn one then how come you can't admit we atleast agree that it can't be done even if we disagree on the reason? Or should I say we both believe it can't be done. Not that it matters but my point was if updating the enmity system was too much for the dev team to do then this would also fall into that category, as in its a complete update to the battle system as we know it and would most likely take the same amount of work and resources to accomplish.

[Leonlionheart]

If I'm the stubborn one then how come you can't admit we atleast agree that it can't be done even if we disagree on the reason? Or should I say we both believe it can't be done. Not that it matters but my point was if updating the enmity system was too much for the dev team to do then this would also fall into that category, as in its a complete update to the battle system as we know it and would most likely take the same amount of work and resources to accomplish.

If: the original code does not allow for swinging during casting, it can't be done.

If not, then it can be done.

I don't actually know if there's just a switch that turns off auto attacks, that if that switch doesn't get activated, you keep swinging. It could be done like that, in which case it's very much so possible.

[Dauntless]

Even if we could swing while casting, it still wouldn't be the end all be all fix. Being able to swing while casting would be dandy, sure, but even then our magic is still pitifully weak and often resisted.

Also, please don't say Dread Spikes makes DRK able to tank. I've never had D spikes last more than 20 seconds while I had aggro.

[Korpg]

I wish WAR had an ability to mitigate damage fully when they get hate....

[Dauntless]

Boy, I wish DRK had one of those too. I'd LOVE to see a DRK manage to get off the full cast of Dread Spikes while they had aggro. I'd love to.

And oh boy, DRKs have a spell that lets them survive aggro for 10 minutes if the mob doesn't use any TP moves. That obviously makes them a better tank than WAR, PLD, NIN, and MNK, right? Right? Right? Doesn't it? Huh? Yeah?

No, it doesn't. Anyone who says otherwise has no fucking idea what they're talking about.

[Korpg]

inb4moderation

Also, I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that DRK is a better tank than anyone.

[Zatias]

Also, I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that DRK is a better tank than anyone.

DRK is a better tank than anyone. LOOK HOW MUCH HATE WE CAN GENERATE OMG!!

[Leonlionheart]

Guys. WAR has no defensive skills.

DRK has 5, no matter how useful they are. (Dread Spikes, Drain, Drain II, Stun, Absorb-Accuracy- yes I know DRK can't evasion tank). So like 3 that really matter (D Spikes, Drain II, Stun)

3>0 iirc.

Even if you honestly believe that defender does more than diddly squat, 3>1.

[Dauntless]

Guys. WAR has no defensive skills.

DRK has 5, no matter how useful they are. (Dread Spikes, Drain, Drain II, Stun, Absorb-Accuracy- yes I know DRK can't evasion tank). So like 3 that really matter (D Spikes, Drain II, Stun)

3>0 iirc.

Even if you honestly believe that defender does more than diddly squat, 3>1.

Alright, I'm about sick of this.

Dreadspikes. Now, unless you know in advance that you're going to get aggro, dreadspikes is not a viable option whatsoever due to the obnoxiously long casting time. So unless you know in advance that you're going to get aggro, dreadspikes is out the window.

Now lets say do do get dreadspikes on while you had aggro. The longest it can possibly be on is one minute. Now in this one minute damage is nulled until you've received half of your max hp in damage. This generally happens in about 30 seconds max. Dreadspikes also doesn't activate for spells or tp moves.

Keep in mind this spell can only be used once every 3 minutes. Not quite the most efficient "tanking" spell, is it?

So dreadspikes is out the window. Drains? Yeah, dark magic is broken. You' gain back, on average, 300 hp with both drains (assuming you have capped dark magic and merits). This will be gone in less than 2 hits from the average mob.

Stun? Really? The mob can't move for about 2 seconds, so chalk that up to a tanking spell, right? You can't be serious. You've got to be trolling us.

Now on to warrior. Defender, increases your defense by 25%. Doesn't sound too useless to me. Sure as shit more useful than anything DRK has.

Defense bonus 2. +22 natural defense. Nothing amazing, but again, sure as shit more than anything DRK has.

Shield Defense bonus. Shield Mastery. C+ Shield rating. Fencer. Hint hint, you can use shield and a one handed weapon. Hint hint.

Not even gonna post a score because DRK has nothing that would make them remotely useful as a tank. Please stop talking out of your ass.

For fucks sake we have Attack Bonus 5. We are obviously geared towards being the heaviest DDs in the game. Why in the world are we currently the lightest?

[Leonlionheart]

Alright, I'm about sick of this.

Dreadspikes. Now, unless you know in advance that you're going to get aggro, dreadspikes is not a viable option whatsoever due to the obnoxiously long casting time. So unless you know in advance that you're going to get aggro, dreadspikes is out the window.

Now lets say do do get dreadspikes on while you had aggro. The longest it can possibly be on is one minute. Now in this one minute damage is nulled until you've received half of your max hp in damage. This generally happens in about 30 seconds max. Dreadspikes also doesn't activate for spells or tp moves.

Keep in mind this spell can only be used once every 3 minutes. Not quite the most efficient "tanking" spell, is it?

So dreadspikes is out the window. Drains? Yeah, dark magic is broken. You' gain back, on average, 300 hp with both drains (assuming you have capped dark magic and merits). This will be gone in less than 2 hits from the average mob.

Stun? Really? The mob can't move for about 2 seconds, so chalk that up to a tanking spell, right? You can't be serious. You've got to be trolling us.

Now on to warrior. Defender, increases your defense by 25%. Doesn't sound too useless to me. Sure as shit more useful than anything DRK has.

Defense bonus 2. +22 natural defense. Nothing amazing, but again, sure as shit more than anything DRK has.

Shield Defense bonus. Shield Mastery. C+ Shield rating. Fencer. Hint hint, you can use shield and a one handed weapon. Hint hint.

Not even gonna post a score because DRK has nothing that would make them remotely useful as a tank. Please stop talking out of your ass.

For fucks sake we have Attack Bonus 5. We are obviously geared towards being the heaviest DDs in the game. Why in the world are we currently the lightest?

You must be a total idiot.

Find out how defense works before saying its even useful for tanking.

What WAR in their right mind will ever use a shield?

Difference in taking damage between no defender and defender: 5~15.

Difference in taking damage between Dread Spikes and no Dread spikes 100~400.

Stun TP moves. K.

Drain cures you a bit. K.

End discussion.

[Dauntless]

You must be a total idiot.

Find out how defense works before saying its even useful for tanking.

What WAR in their right mind will ever use a shield?

Difference in taking damage between no defender and defender: 5~15.

Difference in taking damage between Dread Spikes and no Dread spikes 100~400.

Stun TP moves. K.

Drain cures you a bit. K.

End discussion.

/facepalm ..............fucking moron

[Taint2]

DRK is a better tank than anyone. LOOK HOW MUCH HATE WE CAN GENERATE OMG!!

At 75 DRK was a premier tank, now not so much, DDs all cap hate too fast for it to matter.

[Leonlionheart]

/facepalm ..............fucking moron

I've explained it before, Defense is essentially a completely useless stat.

You're completely retarded if you think otherwise.

[Greatguardian]

inb4moderation

Also, I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that DRK is a better tank than anyone.

Huh? Dark Knight is an awesome, beast of a tank outside of Abyssea (lolnoCritWS). Has this really never come up on here or FFXIAH before? DRK had replaced PLD at HNM camps on Cerberus as early as late 2009.

[Neisan_Quetz]

We get Drain 1 at level 10. Why shouldn't we get at least Drain 3 by level 99?

Sorry, Blm is still waiting for Drain 2.

[StingRay104]

Wow Leonlionheart still thinks he knows what he is talkin about.

Drain can cure you he says, well if you ever played DRK then you would notice the really long recast time and would find yourself dead before you cast it again. Difference in damage for defender 5~15? I'm sorry we aren't on the same language here I speak "I know what I'm talking about," who knows what your speaking, but if I had to guess your claiming 5-15 damage is all defender saves you right? Well I've used it on my DRK before and got a whole lot more damage reduction than that. Hell maybe you mean per hit and the ability lasts for 5 mins as opposed to the 1 min max our dread spikes has with its capped damage mitigation to 1/2 or HP. So even if you were fighting the slowest attacking nm in the game you'd outdamage mitigate us DRKs.

Hey look at that someone else brought up shields, hey look at that war has a useful defense ability. You know just because you hate shields doesn't mean that you can't effectively use them, and therefore become a much better tank than you claim war is only capable of. Which once again brings up the bandwagon card, all you do is focus on damage never learning your job or trying to maximize your jobs capabilities, all you want is more damage and faster.

You know anyone who calls stun and drains defense moves is completely retarded. Stun is a completely situational improvement spell that requires multiple people with it to fully utilize it. Hell if stun had a recast of 15-20 secs you'd have a somewhat valid point but it takes 45 seconds to stun a creature and the effect only lasts 1 second, thats right the message stating stun wore appears before the message stating stun landed, some defensive spell. Drain, dear lord as I've already explained to you so many times that I'm starting to think your brain just can't comprehend anything more than I like shiny damage, drain deals very little damage, it's not affected by magic acc, its damage is completely random, and it has a 1 min recast. Drain 2 is similar to drain except it averages higher damage and can increase ones hp if you drain more than your total hp, cept this doesn't work in abyssea because of cruor buffs. Not to mention thet fact that drain 2 has a 3 min recast time, another thing you'd know if you ever leveled DRK.

So all in all you think that war and DRK are the same job except that war is better at doing damage and DRK is better at tanking, even tho war has 5 defensive abilities and DRK has 1, 5<1, ok from now on anytime you post something mention that you believe that 5 is less then 1, but be forewarned, unless its a golf forum your gonna get laughed at alot.

Dauntless you were right. /facepalms all around for having to listen to leonlionhearts crap

[Dauntless]

Sorry, Blm is still waiting for Drain 2.

Like you need it.

DRK got Bio before RDM. Why shouldn't we get Bio 3 before em too?

[Korpg]

Now on to warrior. Defender, increases your defense by 25%. Doesn't sound too useless to me. Sure as shit more useful than anything DRK has.

Defense bonus 2. +22 natural defense. Nothing amazing, but again, sure as shit more than anything DRK has.

Shield Defense bonus. Shield Mastery. C+ Shield rating. Fencer. Hint hint, you can use shield and a one handed weapon. Hint hint.


You have no clue what a WAR is, do you?

Defender? Sure, lets cut off 25% of our attack to increase a useless stat by the same % amount. Real great ability to use.....not.

Defense bonus 2. So what? Defense is a useless stat. Unless you have over 10k defense, you won't see the difference between 1 defense and 9999 defense.

Shield....yeah, I would really use a shield with my GA. Yeah.....tell a WAR that they can onehand something, why don't you. Oh wait, you did....

You tell us to not tell you how to do your job, why can't you do the same? Because you got no clue what a WAR is now.

Our best defensive ability is Retaliation. You know why? It is because it is a counter for your counter, so you can TP while you TP.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Like you need it.

DRK got Bio before RDM. Why shouldn't we get Bio 3 before em too?

No, just so you don't cast it after I've put Dia 3 on the mob.

[Leonlionheart]

Our best defensive ability is Retaliation. You know why? It is because it is a counter for your counter, so you can TP while you TP.

I don't understand why DRKs don't like being more defensive then wars

I guess it hurts their souleater pride, since they are supposed to die more than anyone?

Personally when I play DRK I enjoy not dying half as much as when I play WAR.

[Leonlionheart]

Also:
ITT: Stun sucks

That's why BLU can't tank either guys. It's because Head Butt is useless

[StingRay104]

Also:
ITT: Stun sucks

That's why BLU can't tank either guys. It's because Head Butt is useless

Ok I get it know, shoulda seen it when Kor asked if I was jealous of war, but now it all makes sense. Your just trolling in here and no surprise Kor is instigating it just like he does with Dallas on smn threads. Well I'm out you can have your little troll fest without me.

[Korpg]

Kurd, because somebody disagrees with you, doesn't make them a troll.

Makes you trollish for thinking so though.

I don't think that DRKs make great tanks, they get hate really easy (but now, who doesn't?) but they have the defense of a BLM. And the smell of one too (pew).

[Kwate]

I'll take tanking on my WHM, at least I'll have cure 5&6 with some SS relief. This DRK tanking argument is garbage to say the least.

[Dauntless]

You have no clue what a WAR is, do you?

Defender? Sure, lets cut off 25% of our attack to increase a useless stat by the same % amount. Real great ability to use.....not.

Defense bonus 2. So what? Defense is a useless stat. Unless you have over 10k defense, you won't see the difference between 1 defense and 9999 defense.

Shield....yeah, I would really use a shield with my GA. Yeah.....tell a WAR that they can onehand something, why don't you. Oh wait, you did....

You tell us to not tell you how to do your job, why can't you do the same? Because you got no clue what a WAR is now.

Our best defensive ability is Retaliation. You know why? It is because it is a counter for your counter, so you can TP while you TP.

I never said you should be tanking. What I'm saying is if you're going to tell me DRK is a better tank than WAR, I will give you the things WAR has that DRK lacks.

Of course I don't expect WARs to tank. Your damage is broke as fuck, no one should expect you to tank, but given the situation I would ask a WAR to tank 10000x sooner than I would ask a DRK to tank.

[Korpg]

I never said you should be tanking. What I'm saying is if you're going to tell me DRK is a better tank than WAR, I will give you the things WAR has that DRK lacks.

Of course I don't expect WARs to tank. Your damage is broke as fuck, no one should expect you to tank, but given the situation I would ask a WAR to tank 10000x sooner than I would ask a DRK to tank.


Also, I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that DRK is a better tank than anyone.

I am not saying that DRK is a better tank than WAR, I'm saying that neither WAR nor DRKs are made for tanking jobs in the first place. That is PLD, NIN, and to some extension, DNC. But in the terms of tanking ability, WAR > DRK

[Dauntless]

I am not saying that DRK is a better tank than WAR, I'm saying that neither WAR nor DRKs are made for tanking jobs in the first place. That is PLD, NIN, and to some extension, DNC. But in the terms of tanking ability, WAR > DRK

Tell that to Leon.

[Korpg]

Think he agrees with me.

[Dauntless]

Guys. WAR has no defensive skills.

DRK has 5, no matter how useful they are. (Dread Spikes, Drain, Drain II, Stun, Absorb-Accuracy- yes I know DRK can't evasion tank). So like 3 that really matter (D Spikes, Drain II, Stun)

3>0 iirc.

Even if you honestly believe that defender does more than diddly squat, 3>1.

lolwhat???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????//

[Korpg]

lolwhat???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????//

That is true, WAR has no defensive skills at all.

[Leonlionheart]

I'm not saying WAR nor DRK should be tanks.

DRK has more defensive capabilities. By a good amount. Anyone can get off Dread Spikes if you use stun or weaponbash before it, (assuming seigan/hasso are off) unless the mob is stun resistant.

WAR tanks better than DRK, simply because of Retaliation, meaning the mob dies faster. Not because it has defensive capabilities

My point is, DRK is more defensive than WAR if all your counting is defensive skills.

(Offense is the best defense though, so retaliation makes WAR prime in abyssea, where defensive capabilities really don't mean squat.)

[Mordanthos]

This proves that Sometimes, the players know the game better than the developers themselves.
How sad is it that the players know more and better at their job than the ones who made it!?

We know what we expect from DRK and we want a lot of what DRk lacks...
But sadly SE doesn't and they giving us useless crap that we don't care for at all...

!!!!!!!!

This is laughable. If players knew more about the job, then they wouldnt be using stupid GS Torcleaver. Drk is built for Scythe period. No ifs, ands, or buts. How much sense does it make to use a WS that is modified by vitality when nothing you get has any vitality. The scythe on the other hand is modified by 2 stats that are on your emp armor. Don't get me wrong, you can Torcleaver just fine, but requires the gathering of vitality gear to fill up your bag slots. At the same time, ive seen plenty of Quietus for the same amount of dmg as Torcleaver.

Bottom line is, Scythe is for DRK, stop using a stupid GS

[Leonlionheart]

This is laughable. If players knew more about the job, then they wouldnt be using stupid GS Torcleaver. Drk is built for Scythe period. No ifs, ands, or buts. How much sense does it make to use a WS that is modified by vitality when nothing you get has any vitality. The scythe on the other hand is modified by 2 stats that are on your emp armor. Don't get me wrong, you can Torcleaver just fine, but requires the gathering of vitality gear to fill up your bag slots. At the same time, ive seen plenty of Quietus for the same amount of dmg as Torcleaver.

Bottom line is, Scythe is for DRK, stop using a stupid GS

First off, lol.

Secondly, you can get Caladbolg in like 4 hours, where as Redemption is the hardest Emp to make.

Next up, Torcleaver is probably the best non-crit ws.

[Mordanthos]

First off, lol.

Secondly, you can get Caladbolg in like 4 hours, where as Redemption is the hardest Emp to make.

Next up, Torcleaver is probably the best non-crit ws.

WTF is so hard about Redemption. Chloris can be ROFL stomped with a Retaliation Ukko spam in less than 30 seconds, and Ulhuadshi is a push over. I understand Carabosse and CC are pretty freeeeeking easy. But with a Retaliate Ukko, Chloris falls like, 20 times faster than Carabosse. I;m not worried about how long it takes to build a pop set, because like all of you seem to fail to understand, Time does not = difficult

[Leonlionheart]

WTF is so hard about Redemption. Chloris can be ROFL stomped with a Retaliation Ukko spam in less than 30 seconds, and Ulhuadshi is a push over. I understand Carabosse and CC are pretty freeeeeking easy. But with a Retaliate Ukko, Chloris falls like, 20 times faster than Carabosse. I;m not worried about how long it takes to build a pop set, because like all of you seem to fail to understand, Time does not = difficult

If time =/= difficult, then FFXI is the easiest game I've ever played. It's just a huge time sink, nothing is really hard.

Every single NM in Visions and Scar zones are easy as pie with Ukko's Fury. I've duo'd every single one of them, besides some of the niche ones, like Glavoid and Turul.

Chloris just takes FOREVER to farm.

[Mordanthos]

If time =/= difficult, then FFXI is the easiest game I've ever played. It's just a huge time sink, nothing is really hard.

Every single NM in Visions and Scar zones are easy as pie with Ukko's Fury. I've duo'd every single one of them, besides some of the niche ones, like Glavoid and Turul.

Chloris just takes FOREVER to farm.

Chloris takes exactly as long as everything else to farm, build amber, build pearl, build azure, commence cleave. If your building pop sets running around the zone thats great. But who builds one pop set. You're just doing it wrong. get 4-5 friends, and cleave capped amber, you'll build 5 sets rather quickly.

[Leonlionheart]

Chloris takes exactly as long as everything else to farm, build amber, build pearl, build azure, commence cleave. If your building pop sets running around the zone thats great. But who builds one pop set. You're just doing it wrong. get 4-5 friends, and cleave capped amber, you'll build 5 sets rather quickly.

Have you ever even farmed Carabosse? It litterally takes 3 minutes to build a popset.

[Mordanthos]

Have you ever even farmed Carabosse? It litterally takes 3 minutes to build a popset.

/sigh. No i have never built a single pop set in my life. I only have an Ukon, and steal carabosses. I completely understand your logic. But no one goes in and just burns stones to build pop sets, to leave, to re enter, to refresh time to 120. It just doesnt work effectively that way. All good statics are going to farm up 400+ minutes, and at the same time while doing that, you get the KI from chest, and then you burn the 400+ minutes down unloading KI and gathering more.

[Mordanthos]

Different Strokes for different folks man. Let this post go back to its topic. I still believe DRK is meant for Scythe, and when i see one with GS and Torcleaver, it just makes me puke. To be honest. A PLD would wreck some serious face with that thing with more Vit gear options.

[Leonlionheart]

I don't understand why a job is built for a weapon...

I mean the only difference is the skill and available WS... PLD gets the same VIT gear (thats usable with the WS lol koenig doesn't count) that DRK does...

[Duelle]

I don't understand why a job is built for a weapon...

I mean the only difference is the skill and available WS... PLD gets the same VIT gear (thats usable with the WS lol koenig doesn't count) that DRK does...Would this therefore suggest they put the VIT mods on Torcleaver for the luls?

[Urteil]

In the Meteor/Comet thread Camate you state that you'll try to get the more information.

Could you please try and to the same for us Dark Knights,

Thank you.

[Urteil]

Different Strokes for different folks man. Let this post go back to its topic. I still believe DRK is meant for Scythe, and when i see one with GS and Torcleaver, it just makes me puke. To be honest. A PLD would wreck some serious face with that thing with more Vit gear options.

When fighting anything worth mention the hardest part about any WS and torcleaver is no exception, is breaking the mobs def with your atk.

However it does amazing damage because of its obscene TP modifier and triple damage factor.

PLD is going to have an incredibly hard time doing this and have to war more atk gear than vit gear to compensate for their lack of endark, Attack Bonus Trait.

Where I can stack VIT pieces and have the attack needed.

The lower delay allows for very fast swing speed with ODD kicking, I feel that this helps the Great Sword pull head in PVE situations.

PLD also lacks last resort which is really where the Greatsword or Empyrean weapons shine, because the ODD and frequency of attack is the good part.








Any paladin using the Greatsword outside of PvP is retarded because if I could put Ochain on my DRK I'd be wearing that and be invincible.

Even in Ballista (and I am a person who is all for the unconventional) this is also stupid idea:

In Ballista they are both terrible weapons, awful awful awful.
Torcleaver at least does the softcap for damage on most targets save plate-mail classes and guard/block shenaingans.
Quietus just sucks, ass, going to be using guillotine, at least Torcleaver does damage.

However they both suck, be smart and use a Magian scythe.

However the Redemption scythe is Ugly as sin, the greatsword looks half decent at least.

[Urteil]

Hey uh.

SE. . .

It just seems like you're really dead set on this, so, can um . .

Can we start at step one, 2002.


Before you do all this crazy elemental stuff.
Could you maybe...

I don't know...

Give us Magical Attack Bonus Tier I?




Thanks.

Urteil.

[Urteil]

---double-

[Leonlionheart]

All I get from Mordanthos's arguments is


I MAD

Apparently Great Sword was better than Scythe before 2005 too.

[Malamasala]

And once Axes were better than both.

[StingRay104]

Scythe had its lime light after the 2006 update until Naglering came out with znms. Then a DRK with /sam and a high delay GS (Naglering) could build tp faster than a scythe wielder and use ws's that were more consistant. Only advantage scythe could get was on low def mobs or while souleater was active. Also I've gone against redemption DRKs with my caladbolg and the end result is always the same, the redemption DRK wishs they had a Caladbolg instead. The only advantage quietus can ever get is it maintains its damage on high def mobs (Kinda like gs ws's cept torcleaver), but its damage is still ultimately too low. The ws dmg mod if the information I've received is correct on quietus is 3.0 at all tps, while torcleaver is 4.75, 5.75, and 6.50. Thats a huge gain on quietus and with all the attack that DRK can get, it easily out does quietus in damage. The dps on redemption (90) is 16.25 while Caladbolg (90) is 16.74, thus the overall damage on Caladbolg is also higher, so if something has higher ws damage and higher dps which is the superior weapon. Btw DRK has the highest skill in both scythe and GS, and SE always intended us to use both so your points remain invalid.

[StingRay104]

I'm not saying WAR nor DRK should be tanks.

DRK has more defensive capabilities. By a good amount. Anyone can get off Dread Spikes if you use stun or weaponbash before it, (assuming seigan/hasso are off) unless the mob is stun resistant.

WAR tanks better than DRK, simply because of Retaliation, meaning the mob dies faster. Not because it has defensive capabilities

My point is, DRK is more defensive than WAR if all your counting is defensive skills.

(Offense is the best defense though, so retaliation makes WAR prime in abyssea, where defensive capabilities really don't mean squat.)

I think I finally understand what your saying, so lets see if I got it right.

You play DRK/Sam and war/sam when you do fights. On war/sam you fulltime hasso and pop seigan when you need to, on DRK/Sam you fulltime seigan because hasso is useless with LR. When you get in trouble on war/sam depending on how the mob reacts you apply seigan/third eye as needed, but ultimately if you keep hate to long you die. On DRK since your full timing seigan you can pop thirdeye in those situations saving yourself a hit and can then pop dreadspikes and use stun/wb when third eye is down thus keeping yourself up. The problem is that seigan/thirdeye is not a DRK ability and therefore doesn't count towards your defensive capabilities unless your SAM main. Also if you were to go full defensive on war with defender, and use a shield you would survive a whole lot longer, in fact ask any whm who they'd rather have to deal with as a tank, they prefer war over DRK because war is better at tanking than DRK. Finally DRK only has 1 defensive ability which is dread spikes, whereas war has 5, so enough of this DRK has all these defensive capabilities while we wars have none, or defense and defender do nothing useless stats and whatnot, you just don't want to sac any of your offensive power in order to survive longer.

[Korpg]

Also if you were to go full defensive on war with defender, and use a shield you would survive a whole lot longer, in fact ask any whm who they'd rather have to deal with as a tank, they prefer war over DRK because war is better at tanking than DRK.

WAR can survive better because they don't use Souleater to do damage. They don't fulltime it like most DRKs do.

Also, your argument with defender and using a shield.......what the heck? Kurd, just stop, you have no clue what a WAR is, so stop now before you embarrass yourself even more.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The only time I seriously use defender is trying to proc red on weak NMs. Soon as I see red unclick defender.

If I have to use defender during any other time, my support is too godawful for me to be on War.

[Korpg]

I don't even use Defender. If I don't proc Red on the NM before it goes to 25% health or lower, I'll let it beat on me to get TP while I TP on a mob nearby. No point in having defender on at all.

[Zatias]

I like to use Last Resort and Berserk at the same time then take 2k from a mob weaponskill.

Really guys, can any thread stay on topic? XD (knows I am not helping with that)

[StingRay104]

WAR can survive better because they don't use Souleater to do damage. They don't fulltime it like most DRKs do.

Also, your argument with defender and using a shield.......what the heck? Kurd, just stop, you have no clue what a WAR is, so stop now before you embarrass yourself even more.

Your right I'm not a war, I leveld the job to 47 and hated it all the way. If I were a war I would most certainly utilize the most out of my job, and if it came down to tanking I most certainly have the best tanking setup that I could get, which would most likely have a shield, it depends really. Honestly a shield is not needed in abyssea a good atma set will do wonders for you, but the point that I was making and still making to leonlionheart is that war still has shield use and can effectively use it to help it take less damage and thus tank better than DRK. The sooner leonlionheart realizes that war does have more defensive potential than DRK the sooner this whole thing ends. I mean cmon I have given him every benefit of the doubt but he refuses to believe the facts right in front of his face. As for how to play war I leave that to people who hav ethe job leveled at 90, but don't come hear claiming DRK has more defensive qualities when you outdo us in that manner as well.

[Korpg]

Just because a WAR can equip a shield doesn't mean they should.

DRKs can equip shields too, why should they?

[StingRay104]

Just because a WAR can equip a shield doesn't mean they should.

DRKs can equip shields too, why should they?

DRK has no native shield skill war has the 2nd highest, besides Shield Mastery and Shield Def boost are war jt's.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No war is seriously going to use a shield even if they had to tank. If they can't tank it without gimping their damage with a 1H+Shield, a War shouldn't be tanking it.

Actually, Seigan + TE alone is probably more damage mitigation than shield will ever be for War.

[StingRay104]

No war is seriously going to use a shield even if they had to tank. If they can't tank it without gimping their damage with a 1H+Shield, a War shouldn't be tanking it.

Actually, Seigan + TE alone is probably more damage mitigation than shield will ever be for War.

Agreed, but shield is always the forgotten part of war's defensive arsenal. Besides war really is built to last longer on the recieving end of damage, with dread spikes DRK only hopes to last til souleater wears.

[Korpg]

The fact remains, you have dread spikes.

WARs don't.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because it's a fairly useless one that doesn't really accomplish anything other than make you kill slower while still taking damage. The day shield blocks stopped reducing damage to 0 was the day shield tanking lost a lot of its luster (Was still no Seigan for awhile after then though). Pld benefits since shield blocks now prevent spell interruption, but War has no spells natively so this is a moot point. Also Ochain/Aegis, of which War gets neither.

[Korpg]

Lets not forget that Seigan is useless while wearing a shield.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If survivability was a huge enough issue that you had to swap your weapon on War you're probably better switching to Terra's. Or a PDT Gaxe depending on if you have/use one or not would be a decent middle road.

[Leonlionheart]

I wasn't counting Third Eye even.

The fact is Defender is useless, unless you're purposefully trying to lower your attack. Proccing red it can help, but I never take that long anyway.

You can stun the mob long enough to get off a cast of Dread Spikes is what I'm saying, assuming you take off Hasso/Seigan. I've done it before, not 100% reliable but it works most of the time.

DRK just has higher basic survivability at the moment, Dread Spikes is actually pretty damn good.

As for shield, if I'm comparing a DRK using it's best weapon why can't I compare WAR the same way? You have tactical parry, yet you don't wear parry gear.

[Mightyg]

Give drk a solid dark based nuke, Demi maybe. High cooldown, low mp cost. Would be practical for various things and differentiate drk from the other melee.

Toss in a party buff spell that grants an Area of Effect only utsusemi effect. helps protect drk and melee party members from aoe, added bonus of extra protection for ninja. obviously would need a high cooldown, 1:30 to 2 mins. Call it cursed veil or something.

Add a job ability that reflects the next source of damage the drk takes, cutting the damage drk takes by 50% and returns it back onto the enemy. Would only work on special attacks and magic. Also allows drk to target themselves, taking 50% damage and returning 200% to current target with whatever spell used.

Damage over time spell Bleed. Occasionally grants the caster a regen effect when in aura range of the enemy.

[Raucent]

the veil idea seems interesting but i wouldn't give it utsu style shadows too many nins would complain. perhaps as an AoE evasion boost or something instead

[Mightyg]

I think since it would only apply to aoe attacks that it would be acceptable, would also only last for one attack.

[Chriscoffey]

I believe Dark Knight is a fairly dead job when anyone with half a brain can see the overall difference in damage between using it and using another job . That being the case the other jobs bonus abilities in combat by far puts them ahead of dark by leaps and bounds in what one could consider a DD. I honestly believe the K club set a precedence of zerg damage which lead to the Apocalypse being noticed more and thus haste nerf being a product of Rune chopper death.

I mean you guys can argue all this back and forth conversation as much as you desire but comparing my DD vs Dark it has no chance to come close and this being without any emp. weapons which adds more damage. I will wait and see but I lost hope awhile back in SE caring about dark after the zerg years where dark reigned. I guess LR was a step forward but by no means does it blow away the other DD classes just gets them a bit closer.

[Zatias]

I believe Dark Knight is a fairly dead job when anyone with half a brain can see the overall difference in damage between using it and using another job . That being the case the other jobs bonus abilities in combat by far puts them ahead of dark by leaps and bounds in what one could consider a DD. I honestly believe the K club set a precedence of zerg damage which lead to the Apocalypse being noticed more and thus haste nerf being a product of Rune chopper death.

I mean you guys can argue all this back and forth conversation as much as you desire but comparing my DD vs Dark it has no chance to come close and this being without any emp. weapons which adds more damage. I will wait and see but I lost hope awhile back in SE caring about dark after the zerg years where dark reigned. I guess LR was a step forward but by no means does it blow away the other DD classes just gets them a bit closer.

Please let this be your last post. Kthx. lmao

[Mightyg]

How about a trait that activates on melee strikes that makes your next offensive nuke instant cast? That would make casting a little more practical since it wouldn't slow down your melee dps so badly. They should also give drk a few more levels of occult acumen.

[Malamasala]

Know what? I think DRK should have a "zombie" mode they can trigger on. 75% damage reduction, unable to be cured. It would be kind of funny to sacrifice the ability to restore HP, to avoid losing HP. Not that I play DRK.

[Chriscoffey]

You must be one of those dark knights in denial still. I can tell by your quotes that you really just like getting a rise out of people so let me reiterate the concept for you since you didn't read it the first time. I have a good deal of gear for ALL the jobs i play and anyone who has can simply see the difference. Please if you have further comments i will start posting data for my drg/drk/war/nin against what your opinion is apparently.

[Leonlionheart]

Well, WAR is clearly better.
DRG is better too...

But after that it depends on buffs. If you're getting Samba+Marches+haste then SAM will be better

If not, then DRK stands a chance against SAM

For WAR, it depends on retaliation really.

DRG is just freaking amazing from what I've played.

[Zatias]

You must be one of those dark knights in denial still. I can tell by your quotes that you really just like getting a rise out of people so let me reiterate the concept for you since you didn't read it the first time. I have a good deal of gear for ALL the jobs i play and anyone who has can simply see the difference. Please if you have further comments i will start posting data for my drg/drk/war/nin against what your opinion is apparently.

Yeah, I enjoy getting a rise out of people who do nothing but bash to sport their opinions.

My "opinion" is I enjoy playing DRK no matter how many faults it has. It's fun. ^^ Not that it can't use some tweaks and upgrades.

My DNC outdamages my DRK. Hell, my WHM outdamages my DRK. Even my (god forbid) RDM can probably do that. I know most jobs do in abyssea. That doesn't mean that DRK is dead, it means people need to get the hell out of abyssea sometimes.

Sure, show me your numbers. I am in denial that DRK can be outdamaged by everything. Please help me rid myself of this scourge.

[Jar]

they sacrifice something in return for something else.

Sounds like every WAR ability in the game but Provoke..

[Leonlionheart]

Sounds like every WAR ability in the game but Provoke..

See: my point 5 pages ago.

[Leonlionheart]

Yeah, I enjoy getting a rise out of people who do nothing but bash to sport their opinions.

My "opinion" is I enjoy playing DRK no matter how many faults it has. It's fun. ^^ Not that it can't use some tweaks and upgrades.

My DNC outdamages my DRK. Hell, my WHM outdamages my DRK. Even my (god forbid) RDM can probably do that. I know most jobs do in abyssea. That doesn't mean that DRK is dead, it means people need to get the hell out of abyssea sometimes.

Sure, show me your numbers. I am in denial that DRK can be outdamaged by everything. Please help me rid myself of this scourge.

Honestly, it all depends on Haste. If you aren't getting Marches/Hasso, then DRK is probably beating you. If you are, then DRK is probably way behind.

[Zeroe]

I think it would be cool if dark's could implement an ability similar to ninjas, such as dark shadows or something, not just dread spikes to absorb physical damage up to 50 % of our max health. Or maybe have us expend mp to raise defense. Dark's were meant to sacrifice something to gain something in return, so I'm thinking its about time we can raise our DEF a little.

[Leonlionheart]

Well, defense is a pretty useless stat.

Shadows aren't though

[Urteil]

If you look at the other job threads, the thief thread especially.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11492-Screwed-again-Proposed-THF-job-adjustments.?p=153704#post153704

There's highly detailed explanations and posts by camate actually relaying information from the dev team to us the community?

Can we please get a response Camate in realation to:


What direction are the devs taking us with magic: elemental, dark magic?

Are we ever going to see any boosts to drain and aspir potency.

Why do we have TACTICAL PARRY WITH RANK E SKILL. <---


Can we get reduced drain timers?

Are we getting more tiers of Aspir and Drain?

Where is our auto-refresh and magical attack bonus?



Some solid questions and even half-answer from the dev team would be appreciated by everyone.

[Zatias]

I think we got tactical parry because PLD got shield mastery. It's only fair!

In my opinion dark magic should have its own "MAB" since Drain and Aspir are unaffected by it.

Elemental Magic is pretty useless, and as suggested, we should get magic BURST bonus if anything. Auto-Refresh would be widely welcomed, but I assumed we got left out because of Aspir.

That aside I welcome a Dev's answers, see where DRK is going really XD

[Leonlionheart]

PLD gets to boost Holy to up to like, 2k. Who would complain if Drain II did like 1k? The recast is horrendous, specially if you don't take off Hasso before hand, so it's not like it would be OP.

[Korpg]

They have already answered.

DRK: To get something, they must give something for it. That is the whole theme of the job.

Souleater: Increased damage, but giving up HP.
Last Resort: Increased Attack, but giving up Defense (yeah, we know, Berserk for DRKs). Now with Haste.
Diabolic Eye: Increases Accuracy, but gives up max HP.

By the sounds of it, these two new abilities will be along the same route.

All SE is doing is going by their theme. By all means, you don't have to use it. And don't forget, you guys still have access to the only thing that deals out instant death to enemies (Twilight Scythe).

[Leonlionheart]

DRK is on the bottom of the barrel at the moment though. (And it has seen by far the most of it)

It doesn't matter that it's in conjunction with the job's past, the fact that you sacrifice WS damage to deal white damage (auto attack damage) would never be used, unless it was more DPS than using WS's at all. Maybe if it severely increased Souleater damage (the additional damage from souleater, not the base damage before souleater) without expending HP to increase the zerg capabilities of DRK (which haven't REALLY seen the light of day since 75) then it would be useful, but the job needs something that makes it applicable to all team play, not just situations that are few and far in between.

[Urteil]

Uh, what they gave us hardy qualifies as an answer, we got a nod and shoved to the side compared to what has been said in other forums go look, look right now. I'll wait.


They have already answered.

DRK: To get something, they must give something for it. That is the whole theme of the job.

Souleater: Increased damage, but giving up HP.
Last Resort: Increased Attack, but giving up Defense (yeah, we know, Berserk for DRKs). Now with Haste.
Diabolic Eye: Increases Accuracy, but gives up max HP.

By the sounds of it, these two new abilities will be along the same route.

All SE is doing is going by their theme. By all means, you don't have to use it. And don't forget, you guys still have access to the only thing that deals out instant death to enemies (Twilight Scythe).

THE VISION:
Sacrificing something for gain is a great idea and is hard to excecute well.

SE's RECORD

Sacrificing something to get basically nothing is a crap 'theme', unacceptable and should be changed.


You Stating that DRK somehow has an edge, because it can use the Twilight Scythe which deals a low chance, unpredictable death to trash mobs; Nothing Impossible Gauge, not even players themselves in ballista, is laughable.

The only place the twilight scythe has any value ironically is PvP because it allows you to mitigate -PDT and -MDT builds, but lets be honest, none of you know crap about that. Nor is it what you are referring to.




Death Effect Useless in:

Campaign,
Any NM in the game.
Dynamis (Unpredictable and messes up staggering for TH)
Ballista, doesn't work on players.
Anything that remotely matters.



The weapon is pretty much subpar:
And there are many better weapons than this, Apocalypse, Redemption, Caladbolg, even Woeborn.

It comes down to a scythe that has a niche use, and by niche use I mean:

Taking off my Caladbolg to hit Kindred Paladins with it during their 2hr. With endark on to make sure I don't insta kill them before we land a stagger, and using slice to try and stagger.




So what you're saying is that every DRK should wield Twilight scythe and they'll be fixed or that somehow matters, outside of Exp parties - oh wait. . .




In fact, the simple idea that you suggested that the twilight scythe somehow factors into this discussion or can be used as a bias to say DRK has an edge or is even a justifiable asset to DRK is incorrect.

If I could wield something like the Sagasinger, THEN I'd say you have a point. But you don't.

[Malacite]

PLD gets to boost Holy to up to like, 2k. Who would complain if Drain II did like 1k? The recast is horrendous, specially if you don't take off Hasso before hand, so it's not like it would be OP.

Even still, that's 1000 damage + 1000 bonus HP if you're at max. That's kinda crazy, especially if Souleater is ready as you just added another 100~120 damage to it.

[Urteil]

Even still, that's 1000 damage + 1000 bonus HP if you're at max. That's kinda crazy, especially if Souleater is ready as you just added another 100~120 damage to it.

Not as crazy as an instant 2000 damage that costs 100mp.

That works in abyssea.

And doesn't kill you.

And doesn't have a horrible recast time.


Thx.

[Leonlionheart]

Even still, that's 1000 damage + 1000 bonus HP if you're at max. That's kinda crazy, especially if Souleater is ready as you just added another 100~120 damage to it.

Lower the HP bonus, or simply give DRK a .5 second cast nuke with a long recast that's worth casting.

[Atomic_Skull]

The only place the twilight scythe has any value ironically is PvP because it allows you to mitigate -PDT and -MDT builds, but lets be honest, none of you know crap about that. Nor is it what you are referring to.


Twilight Scythe is also useful on mobs that can absorb damage because it ignores "absorb damage as HP". A couple DRKs with Twilight Scythe and 80% haste will decimate Glavoid before Last Resort runs out.

[Leonlionheart]

Or on mobs that can absorb damage. A couple DRKs with Twilight Scythe and 80% haste will decimate Glavoid before Last Resort runs out.

I've never tried that, does this actually work?

[Atomic_Skull]

I've never tried that, does this actually work?

Mobs that absorb damage as HP don't absorb damage when hit by the Twilight Scythe. It also bypasses all damage resistance with one exception (it doesn't work on Uragnite's -75% damage received when they are inside their shell) Other than that it ignores all resistance to damage types and general damage resistance and immunity.

Note that this only counts for normal attacks, not WS.

[Leonlionheart]

Mobs that absorb damage as HP don't absorb damage when hit by the Twilight Scythe. It also bypasses all damage resistance with one exception (it doesn't work on Uragnite's -75% damage received when they are inside their shell) Other than that it ignores all resistance to damage types and general damage resistance and immunity.

Note that this only counts for normal attacks, not WS.

Intriguing. Very intriguing.

Edit: I wonder if Dvalinn will still Spell-> Direct TP if you hit him with it when you otherwise would have cured him, or if he actually has to be cured by your attack. Likewise on NMs where curing them triggers different actions

[Muras]

Well, I finally decided to come and post my thoughts on the current situation surrounding DRK. I post because Camate and the other representatives say they read every forum and thread, and that they pass on information to the devs, and so I'm counting on you guys to pass on what I say, and what everyone else has said about the problems with DRK. Also, sorry Camate (And anyone else who reads this) for the long post but darn it, I have a lot to say.

With that said, I do agree the proposed job abilities for DRK leave much to be desired. Us DRKs love our weapon skills... Be it Torcleaver, Guillotine, Quietus, or even Insurgency. Both the new proposed job abilities seem to encourage the use of the lesser loved WS like Infernal Scythe, or let us not use our weapon skills at all if the Japanese and French versions of the description are correct (0 TP gain). The magic boosting JA isn't nearly as bad since nothing is forcing us to use the magical weapon skills, but the loss of TP for damage really feels like an insult. Regardless of which Empyrean, Relic or Mythic weapon a DRK uses, or anyone on any job for that matter, that player wants to use the weapon they worked hard to get. The WS is the core mechanic of any relic/mythic/empyrean weapon, so to take it away is, to say it politely, not smart.

The devs seem to have some odd concept of what DRK is. I've been playing DRK since the North American PC launch, and never once thought of it as a job that sacrifices something for something else. I even have the original manual still, which the job's description reads as:

“Similar to warriors, dark knights can wield a variety of weapons. However, these outcast knights have taken the path of black magic to turn battles to their favor.”

So I believe the concept was, at least to the original development team, a job that's flexible like a warrior with weapons but uses magic to give them an edge. Not a hint about sacrifice. And like others have mentioned, Warriror itself has more “sacrifice one thing for another” Job Abilities than Dark Knight does. It seems the devs themselves are confused and mistaken, and I hope their description isn't an attempt to redefine the job this late in the game's life.

Right now, I won't talk about some theoretical job abilities that I think would be good for DRK (And I do have them), but I'd rather just talk about the “obvious”, a word that seems to elude the devs when it comes to DRK.

I talk of the magic side of DRK, the side that's supposed to turn battles to their favor. I know a lot of my fellow DRKs probably frowned and groaned when I mentioned that, but that's simply because so many of our spells aren't worth using. There are no game changing things here... Most of DRK's spells are just gimmicks. But a few simple additions to the spell repertoire may change that view.

We got spells like Absorb-CHR that serve no purpose, and for years we have been asking for things like Absorb-ATK, Absorb-DEF, Absorb-M.DEF. I personally was excited when, all those years ago, SE added Absorb-ACC because I thought “Finally, we're getting the next tier of absorbs”. And then nothing.

The absorbs have so much potential it's mind boggling why we haven't been given more of them yet. Give DRK more useful absorbs, and it's usefulness will increase due to the fact that it can now act as an enfeebler and a heavy DD. Our Absorbs are something that can benefit everyone, like BLMs and SCHs with their nukes with something like Absorb-M.DEF. Or perhaps give DRK an absorb that steals physical resistance (Absorb-PHYS) so that all the melee deal more damage (You know, Physical Damage Taken +/-%). Like, +15% damage to the mob, -15% physical damage to the DRK. Not only with the DRK itself love it, but all the other melees will too. Increases our survivability a little too, which would be nice for once.

Other things too, like Absorb-SPD that gives a new status called “Speed Down” (Slow) and “Speed Boost” (Haste) to the mob and DRK respectively. That way it can stack with Slow and Elegy. Or what about a spell that steals an enemy's beneficial effect? You know, strip down an enemy's defenses to make them your own? I mean, Blue Mage has TWO spells that do this very same thing... This is right up DRK's alley, so why don't we have one?

When was the last time anyone said “Let's get a DRK to make this fight easier”, or “how can we make this monster go faster from 'alive' to 'dead'” and think of DRK? I certainly don't remember it, and having these new absorbs could certainly help with that. These ideas are something that benefit DRK itself and it's party indirectly. I know BLMs would love to nuke harder. I know WARs would love to see Ukko's Fury do even more damage. I know NIN and PLD would love to see the mob swing slower and hit less harder, and the WHMs to have an easier time for not having to heal as much. DRK could, potentially, give them that.

There's smaller changes too that'd make a world of difference, like making Dread Spikes have a 0.5 cast time, or last longer than a minute so I can put it up ahead of time. It can be hard to deal with the 3 second (4.5 with hasso) cast time when I'm kinda dying right now. I tend to need those defenses now and not later. What about a fast cast trait too, like BLM's Elemental Celerity but for Dark Magic only instead? I mean, what with all the melee and casting totally not mixing at all and stuff. If you can't let us melee while casting, surely this is the least you can do?

This is all obvious stuff to any DRK. I won't claim that I'm completely right, but I do think the above ideas match Dark Knight better than the mythical creature the devs described in their manifesto. I understand that perhaps DRK isn't meant to be the hardest hitting job in the game. I understand we're not tanks, nor are we WS machines like SAM. But in this team oriented game, I'd like to be useful. The above ideas would make me a bit more useful (And maybe even a little (Hold your breath now) unique?). That's all I want, and I'm pretty sure what anyone on any job wants.

- Muras of Leviathan

[Dauntless]

Pretty much hit the nail on the head. The way the job was originally headed was completely redirected.

[Chriscoffey]

Yeah it is sad as it's current state and probably the worst thing about it is just about every other jobs says we are overpowered with LR update. I would love to show them the difference inside and *hold your breath* OUTSIDE considering i still end my dark's damage with my other melee jobs. I have to admit the above poster put time and thought into exactly what happened to dark knight before the redirect and haste nerf to apocalypse.

[Malacite]

Not as crazy as an instant 2000 damage that costs 100mp.

That works in abyssea.

And doesn't kill you.

And doesn't have a horrible recast time.


Thx.

Right, because we're totally not done with Abyssea or anything.

[Dauntless]

Right, because we're totally not done with Abyssea or anything.

We can only hope...

[Leonlionheart]

Depends on gear. If there is stuff better than Empyrean Weapons and +2, (Hard to beat) then we're done. If not, then we're not even close.

[Korpg]

We still have 95 and 99 stuff to do.

I have a strong feeling that the +3 and (possibly) +4 of emp armor will come from seals and +2 items together, which would make sense (16/20 seals for +3 pieces, 12/18 items for +4 pieces).

[Covenant]

When more people complete the "~down" series of magian trials maybe, SE will look at new absorb spells. I've yet to see other than myself a single player get a def down, Mag def down, etc weapon from magian trials. I'd bet top dollar that this is the break down of magian trails in general. Empryean weapons > multistrike weapons > STR weapons > stat boost > pet weapons and way down the list(1%) are the party minded weapons that drop mobs stats.

As a dark knight, I got the -MEva down one and mages are like, "what was that you just did?". I'm work on Mag def down now and maybe armor down and evasion down later. The magian trials scythe are pretty strong now I think mine are 125 damage? And the process rates are very consistent.

As an aside, just in case you didn't know absorb INT and MINd will maka all sorts of enfeebs and nuke that much more effect even with the decay.

[Malacite]

Depends on gear. If there is stuff better than Empyrean Weapons and +2, (Hard to beat) then we're done. If not, then we're not even close.

I meant in the sense that we're not going to see any more expansions to Abyssea. Little tweaks here & there are to be expected though and obviously it's still going to be very busy even at 99. But it's more or less being moved out of the spotlight for Void Watch or whatever the heck new event SE may have planned for us at 99 (that's assuming there isn't a mass-exodus over their retarded new billing system)

[hiko]

Not as crazy as an instant 2000 damage that costs 100mp.

That works in abyssea.

And doesn't kill you.

And doesn't have a horrible recast time.


Thx.

havent played with pld but doesnt holy need divine emblem to do 2k+?
if so how can you say than a 10min recast ja "doesn't have a horrible recast time".

else just ignore this post

[Urteil]

Right, because we're totally not done with Abyssea or anything.


Okay smartass, let me adjust the numbers for you.


Not as crazy as an instant 700-800 damage that costs 100mp.

That would give me around 20 instant TP.

That works EVERYWHERE.

And doesn't kill you.

And doesn't have a horrible recast time or cast time.


Even without Divine Emblem its an instant 250-350 damage, the great thing would be DRK could get TP return from it.


Thx.

[Urteil]

[Standing by.]

[Dauntless]

We've been shafted before, I wouldn't doubt it happening again.

[Urteil]

We've been shafted before, I wouldn't doubt it happening again.

I wouldn't doubt it.

[JovialRat]

i get a feeling if SE dev. team gives us "terror" or "plague" drk magic, and or others.... it'll be realllllllllly gimped.
cause the dev.team is that mean :D

[Urteil]

The manifesto thread now has two scholar posts.

Two.

[Korpg]

The manifesto thread now has two scholar posts.

Two.

Incoming WAR post

[Urteil]

Incoming WAR post

FFFFFUFUFUFUFUFFUFFFFF

[Urteil]

Delete this post.

[StingRay104]

<SE> Dear WAR we have decided that even tho the balance for you has been broken for years we are gonna make it so you can now do 10 regular hits and 100k ws's, you'll have access to ever spell, JT, and JA in the game (Including 2hr's), and finally we are scraping all our current plans to update anyother jobs other than WAR.

Theres your WAR post enjoy.

[Dauntless]

I'm fairly certain SE is content with what they've told us so far.

[noodles355]

Defense is a useless stat. Unless you have over 10k defense, you won't see the difference between 1 defense and 9999 defense.This is bullshit. Stop stating this crap.
It is a useless stat because you blink tank most things. It is not a useless stat because it does nothing. High defence pieces can actually mitigate similar or more damage than PDT gear. For example when that Def+20 ring came out, it was actually better than patronus's 2% PDT for Rdm. There are likely other occurances of this. Probably if you compared things like darksteel harness set with koenig set, you'd see similar results.

Furthermore, the most obvious example to prove to you that your comment of "1 def or 9999 def wont make a difference" is counterstance.
You ever seen a monk take damage with counterstance? I'll tell you it's one hell of a lot higher than they take without it.

[Urteil]

This is bullshit. Stop stating this crap.
It is a useless stat because you blink tank most things. It is not a useless stat because it does nothing. High defence pieces can actually mitigate similar or more damage than PDT gear. For example when that Def+20 ring came out, it was actually better than patronus's 2% PDT for Rdm. There are likely other occurances of this. Probably if you compared things like darksteel harness set with koenig set, you'd see similar results.

Furthermore, the most obvious example to prove to you that your comment of "1 def or 9999 def wont make a difference" is counterstance.
You ever seen a monk take damage with counterstance? I'll tell you it's one hell of a lot higher than they take without it.


I wouldn't say defense is useless.

Example a monk using counterstance on me in ballista: Stun -> Melee Swing -> Hello 500+ normal hit/critical, without souleater.

[Malacite]

Not useless, but certainly not all that effective either.

Wearing big, heavy armor just doesn't mitigate damage the way it should in this game.

[Selzak]

How about:

A 20:00 recast job ability that may be used on yourself or a party member which grants an undead Re-Raise like effect that revives the effected player in an unweakened state upon K.O. No EXP is re-gained with this effect.

A 1:20ish recast job ability similar (or exactly) to Abyssal Strike that stuns the target.

A series of job traits starting around level 60 that increase the likelihood of magical attacks dealing critical damage. This trait could effect elemental weaponskills as well.

An adjustment to the spell Dread Spikes, where the amount of HP drained per hit is reduced and dependent on comparison factors while the duration of the spell (in time, not total HP drained) is increased to 2:30 or so.

[Leonlionheart]

<SE> Dear WAR we have decided that even tho the balance for you has been broken for years we are gonna make it so you can now do 10 regular hits and 100k ws's, you'll have access to ever spell, JT, and JA in the game (Including 2hr's), and finally we are scraping all our current plans to update anyother jobs other than WAR.

Theres your WAR post enjoy.

Took them long enough...

[Urteil]

How about:

A 20:00 recast job ability that may be used on yourself or a party member which grants an undead Re-Raise like effect that revives the effected player in an unweakened state upon K.O. No EXP is re-gained with this effect.

A 1:20ish recast job ability similar (or exactly) to Abyssal Strike that stuns the target.

A series of job traits starting around level 60 that increase the likelihood of magical attacks dealing critical damage. This trait could effect elemental weaponskills as well.

An adjustment to the spell Dread Spikes, where the amount of HP drained per hit is reduced and dependent on comparison factors while the duration of the spell (in time, not total HP drained) is increased to 2:30 or so.


I want the abyssal blast that Jnuns have.

[Jar]

This is bullshit. Stop stating this crap.
It is a useless stat because you blink tank most things. It is not a useless stat because it does nothing. High defence pieces can actually mitigate similar or more damage than PDT gear. For example when that Def+20 ring came out, it was actually better than patronus's 2% PDT for Rdm. There are likely other occurances of this. Probably if you compared things like darksteel harness set with koenig set, you'd see similar results.

Furthermore, the most obvious example to prove to you that your comment of "1 def or 9999 def wont make a difference" is counterstance.
You ever seen a monk take damage with counterstance? I'll tell you it's one hell of a lot higher than they take without it.

From what ive seen most monsters only have around 600 attack(weak mobs ~Even Match not NMs Either) meaning 300 def caps you on PDIF but they have a weapon damage of 200~ that is where the differation in damage comes from with player defense also its why plds dont turtle.

[Urteil]

From what ive seen most monsters only have around 600 attack(weak mobs ~Even Match not NMs Either) meaning 300 def caps you on PDIF but they have a weapon damage of 200~ that is where the differation in damage comes from with player defense also its why plds dont turtle.

This seems surprisingly plausible.