Scholar adjustments: Recall and Retrace

[Edyth]

I think scholar should get Recall and Retrace. In my opinion it makes more sense for scholars to get those spells than white and black mages. Scholars are mages from that time period, and anyone who's completed Survival of the Wisest knows that scholars are tied to the past and have been eradicated (with the exception of adventurers who travel through time). So, scholars retracing others to the past and recalling their age of glory makes more sense than WHMs and BLMs doing this. Also, I do think that the grimoire HAS to mention the telepoints in Jugner, Meriphataud, and Passhow somewhere in its pages.

Scholars recalling and retracing especially makes sense since they actually have a book to aid in that endeavor (using the words with their real meanings, not their FFXI spell meanings). Also, if Retrace could work with Accession, that'd be just wonderful. But I'd be happy just to get the spells that WHM and BLM shouldn't have gotten anyway, at least not before SCH. I would be ecstatic.

[Elexia]

In before haters.

It does however indeed make sense as you said. Yeah BLM and WHM get teleport and Warps, but Recall and Retrace are indeed a different type, given lore.

[OMEGA_HACK]

It okay, SCH is getting Ultima (via usage of their 2hr), SE said so! (pure speculation as a set spell has not been identified)

[Olor]

I think this is a reasonable request

[Tezz]

+1

I've actually never thought about this, but now i believe it NEEDS to be done. Also, when they add them, they should obtain the spell naturally before BLM & WHM do.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Not hating on lolsch, but to be honest, you are not a whm or a blm. Sch has it's own way to be played and dose not need to "step on" other jobs more then it already dose.

[Korpg]

Why not ask for All WHM and BLM spells also.

[Raksha]

Why not ask for All WHM and BLM spells also.

Sounds like a good start.

(yes, sarcasm)

[OMEGA_HACK]

Yeah because we should only have 2 jobs that have utility spells X.x /sarcasm


As a SCH main, we are basically a quicker buffer (able to AoE things), better at crowd control (Sleepga, SleepIga, SleepIIga, Bindga, Graviga, Animus- spells), but lack in the Healing and AoE magic damage areas. That's what a SCH is.

Just like when you think of BLM or WHM you don't say "Oh thats a teleporter that can heal, or a home-pointer that can Magic Damage" Those are just bonus utilities they have, why does it have to be secluded to two jobs? If you can give a VALID reason (not just "QQ they have too much already" or something of the like) I would like to hear it.

[Malacite]

Not hating on lolsch, but to be honest, you are not a whm or a blm. Sch has it's own way to be played and dose not need to "step on" other jobs more then it already dose.


Thank you. Glad someone said it. Most of WHM's transportation spells can be used via /WHM now, as can Warp II be used /BLM. Let them at least keep some of their convenience magic.

How about more SCH-only magic instead, and enhancing the potency of Regain because 1/tic doesn't justify the MP & stratagems cost in my eyes. Accession + Haste would also be wonderful.


Actually, SCH is all about studying, learning etc... so how about a spell to increase critical hit rate and/or damage? SCH are master tacticians, which means they should be well versed both in magical and martial implements of war.

[Miera]

inbeforecureV

Seriously though, this is my only issue <__<

[Korpg]

Just like when you think of BLM or WHM you don't say "Oh thats a teleporter that can heal, or a home-pointer that can Magic Damage" Those are just bonus utilities they have, why does it have to be secluded to two jobs? If you can give a VALID reason (not just "QQ they have too much already" or something of the like) I would like to hear it.

Because you want to take more away from what a BLM or WHM really is. They are specialist who excel at what they do. Your greatest strength is the ability to change jobs midbattle. Can you ask a BLM to do awesome AoE buffs and cures midbattle? Can you ask a WHM to make almost as good nukes midbattle?

Besides, its not like it is hard to level WHM to 56 or BLM to 55. If you are a good SCH, you should have both jobs at 49 by now anyway.

[Alhanelem]

Those abilities should remain exclusive to WHM and BLM.

[Tezz]

Those abilities should remain exclusive to WHM and BLM.

No they shouldn't, i want them now. If i don't get them i will throw a sh!t fit and demand Ultima instead.

[OMEGA_HACK]

lol...Ultima and this are two very different things, Ultima makes complete sense, while this suggestion I don't really care either way, if it did I wouldn't be sad, if it didn't I would be sad. Quite frankly not many ppl need the Recall/Retrace due to lack of pull to the past so would it really matter?

[Malamasala]

I think SCH should have spirits. That would overpowered them just right.

[Sotek]

inbeforecureV

Seriously though, this is my only issue <__<

I'd say the same, but I have oh so many issues.

OT: Who the hell cares? Recall and Retrace are completely redundant spells. I can count the number of times I've needed a Black or White Mage to cast them for me on one hand. WotG itself is pretty redundant in itself, unless WoE actually gets a decent patch, in which case they're all still redundant since none of them take you anywhere near WoE.

I honestly don't know what I'm more amazed at. The fact people want these spells on Scholar, or the fact people would think these spells are so intrinsic to White/Black Mage that giving them to any other job would have any negative effect.

Oh and my obligatory "Hey SE fix Modus Veritas already" comment for this thread. That should really get done before anything else gets changed on Scholar. Really.

[Raksha]

I'd say the same, but I have oh so many issues.

OT: Who the hell cares? Recall and Retrace are completely redundant spells. I can count the number of times I've needed a Black or White Mage to cast them for me on one hand. WotG itself is pretty redundant in itself, unless WoE actually gets a decent patch, in which case they're all still redundant since none of them take you anywhere near WoE.

I honestly don't know what I'm more amazed at. The fact people want these spells on Scholar, or the fact people would think these spells are so intrinsic to White/Black Mage that giving them to any other job would have any negative effect.

Oh and my obligatory "Hey SE fix Modus Veritas already" comment for this thread. That should really get done before anything else gets changed on Scholar. Really.

I pretty much agree. Everyone likes getting christmas presents, but the only thing SCH actually needs is some oomph in our cures, along with the rest of the T5 nukes.

The merit revamp is gonna help too so that's the thing I'm most looking forward to. The "Adjusment Manifesto" didn't do much for me.

[Sotek]

I'm dreading merit revamp. I guess I should be more positive, but all I see coming is "Changing Modus Veritas Duration to Modus Veritas Recast/Accuracy" as an incredibly cheap fix to Modus.

[Covenant]

Hmm, I wish SE WOULD have given scholar only access to Recall and retrace via Arts respectively. However, unfortunately WHM and BLM already have these spells so taking them "away" isnt fair. I am for sharing these spells though. And as another poster said accession-retrace & recall would be sweet even if niche.

[Coldbrand]

Why not ask for All WHM and BLM spells also.

What a constructive post.

[Delsus]

WotG itself is pretty redundant in itself, unless WoE actually gets a decent patch, in which case they're all still redundant since none of them take you anywhere near WoE.

So running from jeuno to batalia maw, from batalia to xarcabard [s] is faster than retrace, run to warp npc, then run down the hill to the conflux? What logic is this?

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

Is there anything that you might want to use Modus Veritas on that it actually works on? I seem to get "no effect" 100% of the time these days. (Given that Helices aren't even worth casting, let alone MVing, on non-NMs.)

I understand they wanted to fix the MV-swarm bug/exploit, but really, they could have done it without breaking MV completely. Even making MV completely nonstackable would have been an improvement over making it completely nonfunctional.

Also: second the idea that biggest problem with SCH right now is too-small heals. It's fine to be a second-rate healer and a second-rate nuker that can switch from one to the other as needed, but a second-rate nuker and inadequate healer that can switch between them as needed isn't deriving any value from that versatility. You need a really good tank to survive a NM fight with a SCH healer, but any fool can smash his face into the keyboard and win with a WHM. Result: everyone wants a WHM.

Second biggest is lack of yellow proc spells (which are more important for some purposes than SCH's actual damage output as a nuker, which remains respectable), but that might go away if there's non-Abyssea content that will actually get played and have desirable rewards (unlike WoE and VW).

Really, compared to that stuff, who gives a damn about Recall and Retrace? (Can't you buy scrolls of Retrace for like 5 Allied Notes anyway? Provided that you think far enough ahead to buy one when you're in the past and stuff it in your satchel until the next time you want to go to the past, then buy another one when you arrive, etc.)

P.S. Also, I'd still like to see an update that adds SCH wearability to some older "any mage job" pieces/sets that they were left off for no apparent reason, such as Zenith and Nashira, but with higher levels it doesn't matter that much to effectiveness anymore; it's just a pointless insult.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So running from jeuno to batalia maw, from batalia to xarcabard [s] is faster than retrace, run to warp npc, then run down the hill to the conflux? What logic is this?

Get a retrace scroll? The only purpose of the spell really, is for casting on others/saving yourself 1 invo.

[Korpg]

What a constructive post.

It is about as constructive as asking for all Recall spells and the spell Retrace.

[Elexia]

I'm dreading merit revamp. I guess I should be more positive, but all I see coming is "Changing Modus Veritas Duration to Modus Veritas Recast/Accuracy" as an incredibly cheap fix to Modus.

Never remain positive.

What we would like:
The merits were given a proper boost and worthwhile to be merited.

What SE is prone to do:
Somehow make WARs merit Defender without increasing the merit limit.

[Malamasala]

It is about as constructive as asking for all Recall spells and the spell Retrace.

Asking for those is logical. So is asking for haste.

The problem is that SE has set the game up for anti logical designs.

[Saefinn]

In terms of Lore it makes sense, but they were given to somebody else who already uses those type of spells and I suppose it's kind of expected. I think SCH needs to focus on what makes them special. I want to be invited as a SCH not as a weak WHM nor a weak BLM nor a cross between the two.

Fixing Modus Veritas is a cause I can back though. ;)

[Sotek]

Asking for Recall and Retrace may be logical (it isn't), but it's certainly not constructive. Having Recall/Retrace is right up there on my list of useful things for Scholar to have along side the Stout Servant trait.

As for logic. No. There is no logic in giving Scholar these spells. White/Black Mage are already set up as the transporter spell holders. Unless Scholar got Teleport-/Warp as well then it just isn't logical at all. You don't just suddenly get transporting spells just because they send you to your jobs point of origin.
Seriously, being from X place doesn't entitle a job for a spell that sends you there. Or if it does, lets ask for a Blue Magic spell that transports you to Whitegate. It doesn't need to make sense, Blue Mage is from Whitegate, so that's enough logic to give it a warp spell there.

[Korpg]

Asking for those is logical. So is asking for haste.

The problem is that SE has set the game up for anti logical designs.

Why not go both directions?

Why shouldn't RDMs ask for that Regain Spell? Or WHM?

Why shouldn't BLM ask for those Helix spells? Since, you know, they get a lot more DoT spells than SCH does, even at an earlier level.

See the point? We don't ask for those spells (at least most sane WHM/RDM/BLMs) because we know that we don't want to take SCH's role away from them.

Why are SCHs asking to take our roles away from us? Why do SCHs think they deserve to become the better healer than WHM, or better nuker than BLM? Heck, many deluded SCHs thought they were better nukers at 75, but only because they were comparing themselves to gimp BLMs >.>

[Merton9999]

For my favorite job in the game I am racking my brain trying to think of one thing I would want LESS than a line of transport spells that are almost never used, would provide absolutely nothing to enhance the job, and that only require a simple switch to WHM or BLM when needed. Maybe Cover for SCH? That would be logical, right? I mean, it's like, "strategic" and stuff... ugh.

If SE staff are looking for suggestions for SCH please look no further than the SCH job board. Fantastic suggestions abound regarding augmenting healing, fixing Modus Veritas, increasing Libra range, magnifying SCH-specific buffs (storms, animus, adloquium) making Enlightenment actually do what its description says, relieving the macro-mashing requirements that waste time during our already short Tabula Rasa, and an excellent early suggestion involving dual-element magic to go along with Immanance.

Incidentally, one thing you won't find from the enthusiasts on the job board is a native SCH enfeeble (huh?) that gradually reduces enemy TP, let alone a request to add transport spells!

I'm also using this opportunity to vote for Ultima as the Tabula Rasa spell. If it's not Ultima, please make it something unique and powerful and not just another addendum to cast Raise 3...

[Dauntless]

If SE staff are looking for suggestions for any job please look no further than the job board

The issue being that SE never goes to the job board from what I can tell.

[Raksha]

Why not go both directions?

Why shouldn't RDMs ask for that Regain Spell? Or WHM?

Why shouldn't BLM ask for those Helix spells? Since, you know, they get a lot more DoT spells than SCH does, even at an earlier level.

See the point? We don't ask for those spells (at least most sane WHM/RDM/BLMs) because we know that we don't want to take SCH's role away from them.

Why are SCHs asking to take our roles away from us? Why do SCHs think they deserve to become the better healer than WHM, or better nuker than BLM? Heck, many deluded SCHs thought they were better nukers at 75, but only because they were comparing themselves to gimp BLMs >.>


SCH is one of the least played jobs, so when someone posts an Idea like this it seems like OMGWTF why are allllllll the SCHs idiots.

For the record I personally don't care if SCH gets retrace/recall. It might make sense that SCHs were around back then so they mastered those spells, but whm/blms were around back then too so it's a wash.

I don't want to be a WHM or a BLM but I do like nuking and curing, so I don't know what that makes me. (A SCH I suppose).

I would welcome SCH specific spells/abilities, but since SE hasn't added anything worthwhile since lvl cap raise (except perpetuance <3<3<3) I'm not holding out much hope. But since SCH is a fairly complete job as it stands (need a slightly better cure) I'm not too worried.

[Saefinn]

Why not go both directions?

Why shouldn't RDMs ask for that Regain Spell? Or WHM?

Why shouldn't BLM ask for those Helix spells? Since, you know, they get a lot more DoT spells than SCH does, even at an earlier level.

See the point? We don't ask for those spells (at least most sane WHM/RDM/BLMs) because we know that we don't want to take SCH's role away from them.

Why are SCHs asking to take our roles away from us? Why do SCHs think they deserve to become the better healer than WHM, or better nuker than BLM? Heck, many deluded SCHs thought they were better nukers at 75, but only because they were comparing themselves to gimp BLMs >.>

This SCH agrees with you. Lets be reasonable, jobs have their own specialties and SCH has there's. Wouldn't it be better for SCH to keep getting their own stuff rather than compete with others?

[Korpg]

SCH is one of the least played jobs, so when someone posts an Idea like this it seems like OMGQTF why are allllllll the SCHs idiots.

For the record I personally don't care if SCH gets retrace/recall. It might make sense that SCHs were around back then so they mastered those spells, but whm/blms were around back then too so it's a wash.

I don't want to be a WHM or a BLM but I do like nuking and curing, so I don't know what that makes me. (A SCH I suppose).

I would welcome SCH specific spells/abilities, but since SE hasn't added anything worthwhile since lvl cap raise (except perpetuance <3<3<3) I'm not holding out much hope. But since SCH is a fairly complete job as it stands (need a slightly better cure) I'm not too worried.

I didn't call any SCH an idiot. Other than that, no comment

[Malamasala]

The issue being that SE never goes to the job board from what I can tell.

I think I made a quick glance at all forums once, and only saw them replying in BST and PUP forum. Apparently they are aware that pet job users are the least satisfied with the game, sadly they still don't count SMN as a pet user.

[Malamasala]

Why not go both directions?

See the point? We don't ask for those spells (at least most sane WHM/RDM/BLMs) because we know that we don't want to take SCH's role away from them.


I'm not saying it is a good idea. I'm saying it makes sense and is logical. Had SCH existed FIRST, there is no doubt it would have gotten them. But now it was added later, which makes it locked out of key spells it really should have had lore-vise.

In other words, shit happens.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I'm not saying it is a good idea. I'm saying it makes sense and is logical. Had SCH existed FIRST, there is no doubt it would have gotten them. But now it was added later, which makes it locked out of key spells it really should have had lore-vise.

In other words, shit happens.Which spells should they have by lore?

[Raksha]

Which spells should they have by lore?

I know you're a troll who is just upping his post count and everything, but you don't have to be retarded when you do it.

inb4 moderated.

[Habiki]

Hmm, I wish SE WOULD have given scholar only access to Recall and retrace via Arts respectively. However, unfortunately WHM and BLM already have these spells so taking them "away" isnt fair. I am for sharing these spells though. And as another poster said accession-retrace & recall would be sweet even if niche.

It wouldn't be the first time SE took spells away from a job look at rdm SE took Flash Cure V and Dia III away.

I think they should put the recall and retrace spells where they belong strip them from Blm and Whm and give them to SCH.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I know you're a troll who is just upping his post count and everything, but you don't have to be retarded when you do it.

inb4 moderated.Assuming someone is trolling just because they have a high post count and calling them retarded just makes you look stupid and only helps to invalidate anything you're trying to say.
I am honestly asking what spells you're talking about and what possible lore you think makes it valid, because I'm not seeing it. There is no lore what-so-ever that would even hint at the fact that sch should get retrace or recall. But it's looking like the only point you're trying to make here is "I'm right and you're an idiot for not agreeing."

[Korpg]

But it's looking like the only point you're trying to make here is "I'm right and you're an idiot for not agreeing."

That argument has been working for Dallas for months now. /sarcasm

[Saefinn]

Nobody was accusing you of trolling because you have a high post count, but they are saying your are troll who is upping their post count. I'm an English person posting in this thread, but I am not posting in this thread because I'm English.

But for the record, I'm not agreeing with said person that you're trolling (I believe the question you made was meant ironically, not to troll), I'm just being a pedantic prick.

[Korpg]

I'm an English person posting in this thread, but I am not posting in this thread because I'm English.


Sometimes I wish those who can read and type basic English only posts here....

nvm.

[Meyi]

No. That's ignorant. Stop being ignorant.

Maybe ask for them to reduce Retrace and Recall spells down to sub levels, but other than that...no. Like Korpg said earlier, we don't ask for your spells so please don't ask for ours.

[TimeMage]

What I can't believe is the fact that some people consider Recall & retrace interesting additions to SCH...

We have much important issues to address, like getting Cure V or a different spell that fills a similar role, making Enlightment what it is supposed to do (that is, in addition to let us cast a spell from any addenda, thay spell should also function as if we were in the correct arts), fixing Modus Veritas so it doesn't suck (which will require more than just making it 100% acc like before, but also lower the recast timer to at least 5 mins, it ISN'T overpowering to halve the duration of an Helix while doubling its damage), and while we're at it, make the 3 new spells added (Animus augeo, Animus Minuo, Adloquium) suck less.

[thenewzero]

No. That's ignorant. Stop being ignorant.

Maybe ask for them to reduce Retrace and Recall spells down to sub levels, but other than that...no. Like Korpg said earlier, we don't ask for your spells so please don't ask for ours.

Well, you don't ask for our spells because they all suck.

Having said that, I'm okay not having Retrace/Recall on SCH. As TimeMage said, I'm much more interested in having our healing potential increased (Cure V or a new spell), and making our unique spells suck less.

[Korpg]

Well, you don't ask for our spells because they all suck.

Having said that, I'm okay not having Retrace/Recall on SCH. As TimeMage said, I'm much more interested in having our healing potential increased (Cure V or a new spell), and making our unique spells suck less.

I don't think RDM would mind having that Regain spell of yours tbh.

[thenewzero]

I don't think RDM would mind having that Regain spell of yours tbh.

Honestly, you can have it. 60 TP over 3 minutes is not exactly impressive.

[Alhanelem]

I'm okay not having Retrace/Recall on SCH. We're glad you're OK with it, because it's not going to happen. It would just be stealing more thunder from WHM and BLM with no real reason behind it whatsoever.

[thenewzero]

We're glad you're OK with it, because it's not going to happen. It would just be stealing more thunder from WHM and BLM with no real reason behind it whatsoever.

I was replying to the OP expressing that it's not exactly something important.

If you want me to reword it in a way that you might not find somehow personally offensive, I'll just say "Scholar should not get Retrace/Recall."

[Edyth]

My responses:

To the angry white mage and black mage players: Do you really feel that threatened that Scholars casting Retrace and Recall will make your jobs irrelevant?

To the angry Scholars: Why should I just parrot what every other Scholar is saying? All that stuff has been said and repeated endlessly and many things are inevitable, like Adloquium II and Cure V, in my opinion. Retrace and Recall are things I feel Scholars should have logically, but aren't inevitable because of spell-job trends.

To the people acting like transportation spells are exclusively white mage and black mage affairs: Dark Knight gets Tractor. Of all other magic users, it's Dark Knight that is casting a transportation spell. Preemptive strike on whiners: Yeah, it only works on dead players. So what? That is NOT relevant. That's as irrelevant as the fact that Retrace requires you to have a past nation of affiliation (so what?) or that Recall-Jugner requires the Jugner Gate Crystal (so what?).

To the ridiculous blue mage comment: no monster teleports itself to Whitegate. Blue mages use enemy abilities. Your...argument, if it can be called that, doesn't amount to anything other than fondling in the dark for self-righteous indignation at a logical request.

To the Yuke lover: there is a reason. It makes sense.

[Alhanelem]

I was replying to the OP expressing that it's not exactly something important.

If you want me to reword it in a way that you might not find somehow personally offensive, I'll just say "Scholar should not get Retrace/Recall."
I wasn't offended. I'm sorry if you were put off by how I worded my post.

[Meyi]

My responses:

To the angry white mage and black mage players: Do you really feel that threatened that Scholars casting Retrace and Recall will make your jobs irrelevant?

Yes. I really don't mind if scholars can retrace or recall themselves -- what other people can do on their own isn't a concern of mine -- but it's the principle of giving Scholar more things that had once been White Mage or Black Mage exclusive. I don't like the feeling of my toes being stepped on, that's all.



To the people acting like transportation spells are exclusively white mage and black mage affairs: Dark Knight gets Tractor. Of all other magic users, it's Dark Knight that is casting a transportation spell. Preemptive strike on whiners: Yeah, it only works on dead players. So what? That is NOT relevant. That's as irrelevant as the fact that Retrace requires you to have a past nation of affiliation (so what?) or that Recall-Jugner requires the Jugner Gate Crystal (so what?).

To the ridiculous blue mage comment: no monster teleports itself to Whitegate. Blue mages use enemy abilities. Your...argument, if it can be called that, doesn't amount to anything other than fondling in the dark for self-righteous indignation at a logical request.

I had forgotten that DRK also get Tractor. That is a good point. However, if anything, that proves that Dark Knight deserves Retrace and warp spells over Scholar because it already has access to one of those spells, while Scholar does not.

That point further continues to that, if Blue Mage is restricted by the lack of monsters having teleport-whitegate, then scholar is also restricted by the fact that it has no native understanding of teleports (crags still existed in the past, they were just closed off) or warp/warp II (home points also existed then). Scholar has no access to any transportation spell and therefore doesn't necessarily deserve the right to recall/retrace.

Edit: Completely off topic, but I was wondering why Alhanelem's personality was so familiar, and now I realize it's Tahn, haha.

[Yugl]

Why not go both directions?

In terms of level, not chronology, WHM has stolen Regen prowess from SCH. All mages have stolen Accession/Manifestation and Penury/Parsimony, which are SCH's best JA assets. Again, the former only appears irrelevant due to the chronology of SCH's emergence (WoTG rather than earlier).


Why shouldn't RDMs ask for that Regain Spell? Or WHM?They can have the regain spell. It's shit.


Why shouldn't BLM ask for those Helix spells? Since, you know, they get a lot more DoT spells than SCH does, even at an earlier level.At what point is the OP's argument that earlier acquisition of a type of spell demands superiority over competing classes over those type of spells? You're the only one coming up with these ridiculous arguments.


See the point?If the point was to show that you're a moron, the point has been made loud and clear.


We don't ask for those spells (at least most sane WHM/RDM/BLMs) because we know that we don't want to take SCH's role away from them.Oh ok, so the sum of your opinion on the matter is...

1. SCH's role is to regain (lol1TP/tick) and Helix (Same base damage as Aero II + Broken MV). Somehow, these roles are so important and valued that it would be just awful for WHM or BLM to obtain these abilities!
2. WHM's role is to recall and BLM's role is to D2 others. Well then!


Why are SCHs asking to take our roles away from us? Why do SCHs think they deserve to become the better healer than WHM, or better nuker than BLM? Heck, many deluded SCHs thought they were better nukers at 75, but only because they were comparing themselves to gimp BLMs >.>
SCH were considered better nukers because of MP longevity. How the hell did you not pick that up by now?

[Cymmina]

In terms of level, not chronology, WHM has stolen Regen prowess from SCH. All mages have stolen Accession/Manifestation and Penury/Parsimony, which are SCH's best JA assets. Again, the former only appears irrelevant due to the chronology of SCH's emergence (WoTG rather than earlier).

They can have the regain spell. It's shit.
At what point is the OP's argument that earlier acquisition of a type of spell demands superiority over competing classes over those type of spells? You're the only one coming up with these ridiculous arguments.
If the point was to show that you're a moron, the point has been made loud and clear.
Oh ok, so the sum of your opinion on the matter is...

1. SCH's role is to regain (lol1TP/tick) and Helix (Same base damage as Aero II + Broken MV). Somehow, these roles are so important and valued that it would be just awful for WHM or BLM to obtain these abilities!
2. WHM's role is to recall and BLM's role is to D2 others. Well then!
SCH were considered better nukers because of MP longevity. How the hell did you not pick that up by now?

Korpg has been an authoritative "expert" at all things SCH for years now /sarcasm.

What hurts SCH the more than anything is that they have no place in the game. Battles where they are considered an asset over other jobs don't exist anymore. In the past, Ouryu, Omega, and Ultima would have been ideal places for SCH to be a key member of a manaburn party, both as a buffer and in their own right as a nuker. We got the lovely Imminence stratagem at 87, but nowhere to use it. There's no strategy anymore, just put a bunch of melee jobs on it and stomp on it until it is dead. The WHM has infinite MP and can cure through all the TP spam.

SCH is the best crowd control job in the game, and we only get 2/4 of the "crowd control" spells (sleep and break, missing gravity and bind). On top of that, content like Dynamis, where they can disable large groups of mobs for as long as necessary, has been effectively deleted. There's always Dreamlands (and SCH is still fantastic there!), but I worry that is on the chopping block next.

Giving them Recall/Retrace will change nothing for the job.

[Saefinn]

My responses:

To the angry white mage and black mage players: Do you really feel that threatened that Scholars casting Retrace and Recall will make your jobs irrelevant?

To the angry Scholars: Why should I just parrot what every other Scholar is saying? All that stuff has been said and repeated endlessly and many things are inevitable, like Adloquium II and Cure V, in my opinion. Retrace and Recall are things I feel Scholars should have logically, but aren't inevitable because of spell-job trends.

To the people acting like transportation spells are exclusively white mage and black mage affairs: Dark Knight gets Tractor. Of all other magic users, it's Dark Knight that is casting a transportation spell. Preemptive strike on whiners: Yeah, it only works on dead players. So what? That is NOT relevant. That's as irrelevant as the fact that Retrace requires you to have a past nation of affiliation (so what?) or that Recall-Jugner requires the Jugner Gate Crystal (so what?).

To the ridiculous blue mage comment: no monster teleports itself to Whitegate. Blue mages use enemy abilities. Your...argument, if it can be called that, doesn't amount to anything other than fondling in the dark for self-righteous indignation at a logical request.

To the Yuke lover: there is a reason. It makes sense.

I respect your opinion. I think Recall and Retrace are less important for us, but you're welcome to disagree. Personally I'd prefer people to get into the mindset that SCH is its own job and not a combination of WHM and BLM or a RDM without a sword. I want our exclusives to be given the attention they deserve. I wouldn't complain if we got the spells, but I just don't think they're important enough.

[Alhanelem]

To me, giving SCH all these spells is a slippery slope toward just giving SCH all spells (That's another thing by the way, SCH doesn't learn AoE spells so why would they learn teleports?).

There's no good reason to put these spells on SCH other than "I want them." The last thing WHM and BLM need is SCH to take more of their spells.

[Airget]

the MV nerf was poorly done, they could have limited it to overlapping only 3 times rather then kill it's success rate. As for the meaning behind SCH. Adding recall and retrace wouldn't help SCH one bit and overall it's kind of pointless to add spells that in themselves aren't really that useful. It's kinda like asking SE to give PLD deodorize because it's a White Magic spell. Or maybe Repose would be a better example since it is a divine magic spell and the challenge could be DRK gets sleep! If you take a look at the manifest for BLM RDM WHM and SCH they are attempting to give them the defined role.

BLM is seen as the overall mega nuker and to support that they will add abilities that will almost make them as suicidal as a DRK in order to incrase their damage, however they still have the JA Enmity douse so even if say the new JA which sounds like it will increase MAG crit % and dmg but also give enmity + is used you'll be able to counter it's effect with enmity douse if you end up doing an obscene amount of damage while that JA is active. I kind of imagine that if the new JA is going to be the way it is, the main strat behind BLM is they'll have the JA active and focus on nuking during SC so there normal 1.5k MB turned into a 4k MB that draws hate towards them. I guess what they are going for is increased damage to conserve on MP but also a way to speed up the battle. Since SCH does have similar spells at it's disposal it's hard to really define them from BLM so in order to do that they have to define BLM by giving them abilities that support their elemental skills.

WHM is mainly seeing focus on being able to heal status ailments. Most likely since they have been given Cure VI we might not see any more single target cure spells. They are also trying to give them more support through the ability of lowering mag dmg taken which is always welcomed.

RDM is being focused more on enfeebling capabilities so it's very possible that they may be given JA or even 50+ trait that enhances their chances of landing an enfeeble against mobs with high resist. I guess a prime example of this is Yaguarogui a tiger NM is highly resistant to the enfeebling magic of para and para 2 even from a RDM with an insane enfeebling gear setup. However a simple NIN that only has capped ninjutsu skill can easily land jubaku:ichi on the same NM with no problem. It's this very example where I do see the need of enfeebling skill to be balanced better and I can see abilities being given to RDM to make them the prime enfeebler for high tiered NMs. As for the supportive side I'm not sure why they say RDM are the "enhancers" to an extent. The ones who should be the main enhancer should be WHM though I guess they do want to balance it a tad. Basically WHM is the cure/ailments, BLM is a nuker/??? and RDM is the enfeebler/enhancer.

Though I guess one would say in their bare form that's the vision for those 3 jobs, while sure they may have curative abilties, enhancements and enfeebling skill they want it so that the above is their most definitive trait that can't be overcome by other jobs.

Now one may wonder where this leaves SCH. We have the potential for strong cures through strategms but are still limited by Cure IV(which I don't see changing). We were given tier V elementals though this is most likely due to RDM getting IV and DRK getting III(Basically is one job was going to get a tier up then all three should get a tier up.)

While we have control of the weather and use of DoT known as helixes their roles in combat are limited by the nerfing of MV. Are defining ability are charges which allow use to customize the spell we cast to an extent as well as unique enhancements. Klimaform which allows us to which increases MAG ACC which is a good combo for enfeebles and possibly helixes. Though that magic spell will lose it's luster once it becomes a subbable magic.

Thinking about SCH they are a strategist concept at least based on what they have and the manifest that's what they are aiming for. the Regain 1 tick move is tad underwhelming perhaps a unique twist could be to make it work like the BRD relic where different effects are active based on if you are engaged or not. Basically when you engage the mob it grants 1TP a tick, however if you aren't engaged you'll be given 3tp a tick which would add an element of strategy for SCH allowing them to be more supportive to melee that have to stand back and wait to attack. Instead of making the regain spell static, make it more dynamic. engaged you get a 1/60 cap in the 3 minute period, unengaged you get 3/180 cap allowing you to engage and WS the mob at least once in that 3 minute time frame then only need a tad more to WS again which could alrdy be gained from the Ws's TP return. Basically every tick could determined if you are engaged or unengaged but the "cap" will be like x/60 x/180 so you get a tick 1 1 1 1 then you disengage and get 3 3 3 3 3 so at this point you'll have 9/60 27/180 duration of the ability. I"m pretty sure they would be able to code it so that each tick can easily define whether one is engaged or disngaged and at least make the spell a tad more useful rather then a ooh this one time I actually needed that extra 1 TP to WS.

Another point about the manifest though is we see tp diminishing and status enhancement duration being lowered. Since there are certain enhancements that can't be dispelled at times this would allow SCH to sign in those areas. A spell that comes to mind when I consider how SCH could work is they support through strategy and trumping the mobs moves making them unable to strike in the way they wish to. At least that's the impression I get from SE.

What just cam to mind as I was writing this is in the same manner that using a 2hr at the right time can lock AV's use of a 2hr, ina similar manner SCH can be given a "stun" like speed spell or a JA that can lock the mobs use of a TP move that it's readying. So like let's say Tonberyy readies "Everyone's Rancor" since I do think that takes time to ready a SCH could easily prevent the move and at the same time lock the enemies use from using it again for a certain duration. It would be a unique magic or JA that only SCH could use but it would support their ability to diminish a mobs threat without using enfeebles that already exist.

Another idea that comes to mind is creating a series of "enhancements" that only work when the player is enfeebled with a certain status ailment para/silence/bind etc.

Basic examples of what i'd like to call "Backfires"
Paralyze=Impulse (Increased att speed)
Blind=True sight (ACC + Crit hit rate+)
Silence=Voice of Gaia (MAG Crit rate + MAG ACC +)
Bind=Float(evasion + movement speed +)
Sleep=Insomnia (Attribute +)
Petrify=Golem (-dmg taken)

basic ideas but the general idea is these wouldn't replace WHM's status ailment but be a means of options if say the PLD was petrified cast Golem and now they can take less dmg rather then using stona. The way I would balance it is I would make the casting time the same as a -na spell but the recast would be like klimaform at 3 minutes. Which would mean that while these could be useful they wouldn't be a replacement for curing status ailments. I also think this would support what a SCH is suppose to be. They have a good grasp of the light and dark arts, so one would think that through studying both arts they discovered chants and rituals that could be used to counter a negative effect rather then cure it.

I just think if SCH was given an ability like that it would really allow them to have their own footing as a unique job rather then half a whm and blm. Another balance for the effect itself is that you could only have 1 backfire active at a time, so you can't get hit with bad breath and have the SCH cast all the spells on you since, while a backfire is active you are immune to that status ailment til it wears off.

Another neat thing about this concept is it would make a majority of the useless alchemy enfeeble drinks more useful. That's my suggestion(s) though, rather then ponder why SCH doesn't get certain spells it would be better to focus on what would make SCH a unique class that can stand on it's own. I would really like to have something close to the backfire concept allowing us to play the role of enhancer in a more unique way rather then piggybacking on already used enhancements.

[Raksha]

To me, giving SCH all these spells is a slippery slope toward just giving SCH all spells (That's another thing by the way, SCH doesn't learn AoE spells so why would they learn teleports?).

There's no good reason to put these spells on SCH other than "I want them." The last thing WHM and BLM need is SCH to take more of their spells.


Kinda like how SMN got Hastega and Stoneskinga and Phalanxga and shock spikesga?

That's just a slippery slope to giving SMN ga versions of every spell!

I like to call this the "Slippery Bullshit" argument.

[Yinnyth]

I think scholar should get Recall and Retrace. In my opinion it makes more sense for scholars to get those spells than white and black mages. Scholars are mages from that time period, and anyone who's completed Survival of the Wisest knows that scholars are tied to the past and have been eradicated (with the exception of adventurers who travel through time). So, scholars retracing others to the past and recalling their age of glory makes more sense than WHMs and BLMs doing this.

And if sch didn't exist, and the added job was instead berserker, would it still make more sense for DNC or berserker to get the recall/retrace spells simply because they're from the alternate reality that the spells transport you to? Transportation spells are mostly a matter of magical proficiency. WHM casts recalls and teleports because they're the only job that focuses completely on white magic instead of black magic and white magic or defensive skills and white magic. If you use time period as an argument, you should also concede that RDM deserves warp spells and teleports because they're from the same time period that the spells transport you to.


Scholars recalling and retracing especially makes sense since they actually have a book to aid in that endeavor (using the words with their real meanings, not their FFXI spell meanings).

......what? It makes sense that they should get a spell because schs have a book, and in this book there are words, and contained in those words are real meaning? I honestly don't get what you're getting at here.

I have nothing against schs getting some transportation spells. I think the job could use a bit of help right now anyways. But the arguments given in this thread so far make no sense. The primary concerns when implementing new things are balance (does it overpower/underpower a job/playstyle/etc if we implement this?) and time required to implement. These changes bring SCH closer to balanced with other jobs and would take very little time to implement, and that's why it would be a good idea.

[Raxiaz]

I haven't used either of the Recall or Retrace spells in months.

With that said, I'm all for SCH getting them. There's absolutely no harm in it for BLM & WHM - anyone who thinks that is just... I don't know, ignorant?

I can't see adding Retrace/Recall spells to SCH making it "overpowered" or creating any kind of job imbalance.

[AyinDygra]

Another point about the manifest though is we see tp diminishing and status enhancement duration being lowered. Since there are certain enhancements that can't be dispelled at times this would allow SCH to sign in those areas. A spell that comes to mind when I consider how SCH could work is they support through strategy and trumping the mobs moves making them unable to strike in the way they wish to. At least that's the impression I get from SE.

What just cam to mind as I was writing this is in the same manner that using a 2hr at the right time can lock AV's use of a 2hr, ina similar manner SCH can be given a "stun" like speed spell or a JA that can lock the mobs use of a TP move that it's readying. So like let's say Tonberyy readies "Everyone's Rancor" since I do think that takes time to ready a SCH could easily prevent the move and at the same time lock the enemies use from using it again for a certain duration. It would be a unique magic or JA that only SCH could use but it would support their ability to diminish a mobs threat without using enfeebles that already exist.

Another idea that comes to mind is creating a series of "enhancements" that only work when the player is enfeebled with a certain status ailment para/silence/bind etc.

Basic examples of what i'd like to call "Backfires"
Paralyze=Impulse (Increased att speed)
Blind=True sight (ACC + Crit hit rate+)
Silence=Voice of Gaia (MAG Crit rate + MAG ACC +)
Bind=Float(evasion + movement speed +)
Sleep=Insomnia (Attribute +)
Petrify=Golem (-dmg taken)

basic ideas but the general idea is these wouldn't replace WHM's status ailment but be a means of options if say the PLD was petrified cast Golem and now they can take less dmg rather then using stona. The way I would balance it is I would make the casting time the same as a -na spell but the recast would be like klimaform at 3 minutes. Which would mean that while these could be useful they wouldn't be a replacement for curing status ailments. I also think this would support what a SCH is suppose to be. They have a good grasp of the light and dark arts, so one would think that through studying both arts they discovered chants and rituals that could be used to counter a negative effect rather then cure it.

I just think if SCH was given an ability like that it would really allow them to have their own footing as a unique job rather then half a whm and blm. Another balance for the effect itself is that you could only have 1 backfire active at a time, so you can't get hit with bad breath and have the SCH cast all the spells on you since, while a backfire is active you are immune to that status ailment til it wears off.

Another neat thing about this concept is it would make a majority of the useless alchemy enfeeble drinks more useful. That's my suggestion(s) though, rather then ponder why SCH doesn't get certain spells it would be better to focus on what would make SCH a unique class that can stand on it's own. I would really like to have something close to the backfire concept allowing us to play the role of enhancer in a more unique way rather then piggybacking on already used enhancements.

These are some of the best Scholar ideas I've seen. Battlefield strategy that doesn't step into either White or Black mage's realms of proficiency, combining them in a unique way. (It'll take good party communication to make use of these in strategies also, so Whm's know not to remove an ailment before the Scholar uses a "backfire", for instance.)

Edit: Personally, I see nothing wrong with Scholar gaining the teleports and recalls and retrace, regardless of the reasoning used to promote this change.

[Sotek]

Christ, this thread has circled about three times since I last visited it. I'd rant at the OP but they actually seem to have read the responses in this thread, unlike damn near everyone else (and now I'm going to ignore most of the responses teehee).

Aw heck, I'll do it anyway:


To the people acting like transportation spells are exclusively white mage and black mage affairs: Dark Knight gets Tractor. Of all other magic users, it's Dark Knight that is casting a transportation spell. Preemptive strike on whiners: Yeah, it only works on dead players. So what? That is NOT relevant. That's as irrelevant as the fact that Retrace requires you to have a past nation of affiliation (so what?) or that Recall-Jugner requires the Jugner Gate Crystal (so what?).

Not really. Dark Knight are masters of Death, what an amazing surprise that it can lift dead bodies up and carry them twenty paces. Scholar is Scholar, not Time Mage. Oh wait, I forgot it's from the past! Along with everything else in your bucket of irrelevant facts.


To the ridiculous blue mage comment: no monster teleports itself to Whitegate. Blue mages use enemy abilities. Your...argument, if it can be called that, doesn't amount to anything other than fondling in the dark for self-righteous indignation at a logical request.

It's not logical. I don't know how you missed the point when I stated it so damn clearly.
Just because a job is from an area a spell sends you doesn't mean it's entitled to the damn spell. There, I even made it pink to stand out this time.
Scholar getting Recall/Retrace isn't logical, nor is Blue Mage getting a teleport spell, that's basically why I proposed such a ridiculous analogy. Recall is AoE, Scholar gets no AoE, that's pretty much a damn rule. Cross it off your list. Retrace... I'm actually going to give you Retrace, it's a strategists job to call for a retreat. Scholar is a strategist and Retrace may as well be retreat given the context. Enjoy you're cookie.


To the angry Scholars: Why should I just parrot what every other Scholar is saying? All that stuff has been said and repeated endlessly and many things are inevitable, like Adloquium II and Cure V, in my opinion. Retrace and Recall are things I feel Scholars should have logically, but aren't inevitable because of spell-job trends.

I'd be fine with this, but your thread has more views, more comments and more likes than damn near any constructive thread in the Scholar section. Do you know how a brick wall like SE listens to the communities ideas? When the shear volume of people asking for something becomes impossible to ignore. The fact that a thread asking for damn near complete worthless crap like Recall and Retrace currently out weights every single good and constructive posts anywhere else about Scholar is the just damn retarded. If experience is anything to go by, SE is now more likely to give Scholar Retrace than they are to bloody fix Modus Veritas. Thanks a bunch.
As for certain things being inevitable, when did start playing SEs little toy? Really, I'd love to know. They're only just implementing things that should have been in the game from the start. Unless I bitch about it I don't expect to see Modus fixed for another nine years.

@"Scholar should be a pretty and unique flower!": No. Go read what Scholar is again. Go play FFXI in 2005. Go learn what game balance is. Go look at the last three unique things Scholar got.
Scholar is White Mage and Black Mage. That is the basis of the whole damn job. Wait wait, let me correct myself. Scholar is White Mage or Black Mage. That 'or' is the all important thing that stops the whole job from being overpowered while providing competition for two jobs that were (and are) pretty much unrivaled for their position in any party, alliance or linkshell.

You know, White Mages really are the worst offenders. I don't hear it from Black Mages so much - though the general message to them is much the same - probably since SE has actually been competent balancing the two, but Christ do White Mages complain at other jobs "stepping on their toes"? Grow the fuck up. White Mage is a job that has very rarely been rivaled for a space in any party since the dawn of the damn game, do you idiots even know what it's like to have to work for a position in anything? Of course you don't. The moment Scholar or Red Mage becomes better than you you throw a shit storm so SE puts you back on top as the only main healer in the game and any other jobs as support healers, because "White Mage is the main healer, screw game balance I never had to deal with parties disbanding over and over because there weren't any White Mages around, or any job that could fill their roll at all in the whole damn game". I probably wouldn't be so bitter if any reasonable suggestion to balance a triad of healers instantly gets shot down because it's stepping on toes. I know things were unbalanced in the past towards Scholar and Red Mage, but if you can't see how horribly unbalanced having only one real healer is in the whole game, then you're an idiot. Seriously, I could understand hostility if I was saying "Give Scholar Cure VII, Raise V, Reraisega IV and Holyga IX", but no, I'm saying "Give Scholar Cure V in such a way that if I cast it twice I get hate and die" and suddenly I'm crushing the toes of White Mages everywhere and relegating them back to the bench for another three months or however pathetically short the time was when White Mage wasn't top dog. Seriously, I've waited for parties longer than White Mage wasn't the best.
Heck, I probably wouldn't mind the role of support healer if such a thing even existed in this day and age.

Nah screw all that, Scholar should be its own pretty little unique flower, that can control enmity in a game where everyone can either shed their hate, tank or just don't gain hate altogether (those last two are both thanks to White Mage, how swell). A game with twenty jobs is perfectly balanced when two jobs can tank kill and heal, with the other eighteen being unique. I'm kind of glad SE hardly listens to us, the future prospects of FFXI based on popular player suggestions makes FFXIV look fun.

Oh and before anyone takes that little rant on Scholar uniqueness - or any job really, I'm sure Dark Knight would rather be brought up to par before SE tries to make them melee Black Mages, not after. Heck, I'm not sure, I'm damned certain - too seriously, I don't necessarily think they're bad ideas, hell I've posted a sizable amount myself, I'm just giving them the same stance I give Recall now. If I can't get something like
Modus Veritas is still broken. Fix it for Christs sake.
through, I'm not going to try - or even advocate - suggesting anything revolutionary. Something like Backfire would be great in the game I played three years ago, where bringing only two people and a mule wasn't commonplace.
Preemptive umad.

[Panthera]

If Scholar got access to those spells via Addendums, I for one would be fine with that, but only via Addendums. After all, Scholars were of that time period.

It is an issue worth mentioning and discussing yea or nay, but I think this is far from the most pressing issues with this job.

[Yugl]

This isn't 2004; transportation spells are not a reason to pick one class over another when thinking about battle. The OP isn't saying these transportation spells will "fix" SCH. He or she is saying that it makes sense because of their ties to the past.


Korpg has been an authoritative "expert" at all things SCH for years now /sarcasm.

Seems he believes himself to be authoritative over every class from what I've seen.

[Cymmina]

Modus Veritas is still broken. Fix it for Christs sake.
through, I'm not going to try - or even advocate - suggesting anything revolutionary. Something like Backfire would be great in the game I played three years ago, where bringing only two people and a mule wasn't commonplace.

I agree with the sentiment behind most of what you say, but I don't get your fixation with MV. Helix spells just aren't a big enough deal that MV is worth caring about. Even before it was nerfed, it wasn't "good". Fixing MV is significantly less important than giving SCH a legitimate place in a party or alliance. Even if they fixed MV enough that it was worth using/meriting like you so desperately want, it won't make us any more desirable than we already are.

SCH has received buff after buff after buff (and the MV nerf) since the job came out, but it still doesn't matter. We can't take the WHM's holy position as healer because they do it 100x better and are necessary for grellow/blue triggers, we can't take the BLM's spot in a grellow party because we can only cover half of the spells they can and no one takes a BLM unless they absolutely have to because melee jobs are better DDs.

And for the record, BLMs did bitch and moan to no end back at 75 after Kaeko showed how "good" SCH could be, and demanded SCH get their Tier4s taken away because it steps on BLM toes. Of course, everyone looks the other way when it's pointed out that automatons get tier4/5s and easily outnuked most BLMs at 75. Automatons have cure5/6, too, but can't be reliably used as a healer.

[Korpg]

Geeze, what is up with all this hate?

[OMEGA_HACK]

I like the backfire idea, but I feel like while its not the same spells as WHM it does the same thing as a -na spell but does it even better; but like I mentioned in your thread in the SCH forums, I would rather see two Strategems one for Dark and one for light that are:

Light Arts: Subsisto*
Allows an enfeeble to be cast on a party member but instead of enfeebling target grants a one time immunity towards the enfeeblement. ie: Subsisto > Silence <party member> > <Party Member> gains Null-Silence effect

Dark Arts: Clausus*
Allows an elemental spell to be cast on a party member but instead of damaging the target it grants a one time immunity towards the element ie: Clausus > Blizzard IV <party Memeber> > <Party member> gains Null-Blizzard

*To balance these spells if the target would be hit with a version of the spell that is of a higher tier then there is a chance the spell will only be resisted slightly and not completely nullified. So for example if you only use Blizzard I to give someone a Null-Blizzard and the monster is casting Blizzard V there is a low low low chance the spell will block all the damage. Same with the enfeeble spells.

[Korpg]

Light Arts: Subsisto*
Allows an enfeeble to be cast on a party member but instead of enfeebling target grants a one time immunity towards the enfeeblement. ie: Subsisto > Silence <party member> > <Party Member> gains Null-Silence effect


While that is a nice idea, half of the enfeebling spells are dark based (Sleep, Blind, and Break). So, it would suck to have a light art only give Null-Light based enfeebling spells, since you can't really do Light Arts with Dark Spells.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Light Enfeebles
Slow, Paralyze, Silence, Dia, Flash

Dark Enfeebles
Blind, Sleep, Poison, Gravity, Bio

But if I recall correctly there was a problem when sch was first released which is why when we use Light Arts we get an increase to Enfeebling Magic because the (arguably) 3 most important enfeebles are Light based (Slow, Para, Silence).

[Korpg]

Light Enfeebles
Slow, Paralyze, Silence, Dia, Flash

Dark Enfeebles
Blind, Sleep, Poison, Gravity, Bio

But if I recall correctly there was a problem when sch was first released which is why when we use Light Arts we get an increase to Enfeebling Magic because the (arguably) 3 most important enfeebles are Light based (Slow, Para, Silence).

I didn't include Gravity, Bio, Dia, or Flash because SCH doesn't get it without subjob help.

[OMEGA_HACK]

But it would still work regardless.

[Covenant]

Even though it seems as if the scholar has learn the WHM and BLM spells, in actuality the Grimoire has reveal this spells to the scholar. The Grimoire is semi-intelligent and evolving. When did WHM and BLM learn not only to warp or tele, but time travel as well?

Thw Scholar's/Grimoire's knowledge is tied to that era in the past, after all why was it a "good" idea to exterminate all the scholars I n the past if not for their taboo knowledge and fear of their grimoires?

But...it is too late to just give them this spell. Nothing makes these spells unique to either WHM and BLM considering that subbing these jobs grant access to most types already. Getti g to the past inst all that difficult.

[Korpg]

I don't mind if SCH gets Recall/Retrace at all.

Only thing I do mind is that SCHs are demanding to get another BLM and WHM only spell. That they are entitled to it because it teleports them in the past and that without them, the spells wouldn't exist and all that.

It wasn't that long ago that SCHs were demanding T4 nukes from BLMs, and they got them.

It wasn't that long ago that SCHs were demanding more MAB gear, and they got them (somewhat).

I'm sure that SE will eventually give SCHs their MAB trait that they have been demanding also though....

[OMEGA_HACK]

I don't really care about MaB traits...I like my SCH because outside of abyssea I can consistantly deal more dmg per mp than any BLM can do anywhere.

[Alhanelem]

I don't really care about MaB traits...I like my SCH because outside of abyssea I can consistantly deal more dmg per mp than any BLM can do anywhere.
Thing is, as long as you don't run out of MP, no one cares about how much damage you do per point of MP. They only care about how much damage you do per X amount of time.

Being efficient is only especially valuable if it makes the difference between running out of MP or not, thus meaning that you are able to do more things per X time without hitting the 0 MP wall.

[Yugl]

Thing is, as long as you don't run out of MP, no one cares about how much damage you do per point of MP. They only care about how much damage you do per X amount of time.

Actually, the bold portion is all that matters. It just happens that the former explains superiority in doing X DMG/Y Time.

[Korpg]

I don't really care about MaB traits...I like my SCH because outside of abyssea I can consistantly deal more dmg per mp than any BLM can do anywhere.

ITT: SCHs can only nuke effectively. /SCH doesn't exist.

[Sotek]

I agree with the sentiment behind most of what you say, but I don't get your fixation with MV. Helix spells just aren't a big enough deal that MV is worth caring about. Even before it was nerfed, it wasn't "good". Fixing MV is significantly less important than giving SCH a legitimate place in a party or alliance. Even if they fixed MV enough that it was worth using/meriting like you so desperately want, it won't make us any more desirable than we already are.

And for the record, BLMs did bitch and moan to no end back at 75 after Kaeko showed how "good" SCH could be, and demanded SCH get their Tier4s taken away because it steps on BLM toes. Of course, everyone looks the other way when it's pointed out that automatons get tier4/5s and easily outnuked most BLMs at 75. Automatons have cure5/6, too, but can't be reliably used as a healer.

I know Black Mages bitched, I said I don't hear it so much from them. Though maybe I've gone soft on them because they finally managed to shut up and SE actually balanced Scholar with them pretty damn well.

As for Modus. You're joking right? Helices don't do enough damage... Christ, be glad I got most of that ranting out the way.
Back when it actually worked, I was pulling off 200~300 damage Helices which is some godly damage for 78MP. When I added merited Modus Veritas to the mix it was even better, roughly 12% better unless my Modus Maths is off (which it damn well could be). Now I can manage 400~500 damage Helices regularly and I'm blocked from making that better because SE decided to make the ability completely worthless.
Back when MP efficiency actually mattered they were the best damage/MP nukes in the game. Even though that's a completely moot point now - apart from completely countering your out right ignorance for how great they were - they're still pretty damn good. You'd be an idiot not to supplement a one minute nuking barrage with a Helix, unless you don't want to deal an extra 2k~4k damage with virtually no MP, time or hate cost at all. In which case more power to you.

No, fixing it won't make Scholar more desirable, I'm complaining more at the fact that they've completely broken something and had the grand pleasure of ignoring it for nearly a year (or has it been longer?). I mean honestly, how does that even happen. Unless they're completely ignoring the damn job I can't see another explanation. I could just as easily highlight "Why did you even add Libra?" or "Why the hell does Libra have such a short range on it?" or even better "Why did you adjust the range on Accomplice/etc. and leave Libra as it is?" Seriously, they were in their adjusting the range of abilities - presumably so Thief could use them on Mages without having to move - but completely ignored the fact that Scholar has to run into AoE to use a damn near worthless ability.

To sum up what I'm saying;
If they can't be asked to change one damn number in their coding to make Libra usable - though still fairly worthless - why would they bother implementing something that could be called a breakthrough?

[Yinnyth]

To sum up what I'm saying;
If they can't be asked to change one damn number in their coding to make Libra usable - though still fairly worthless - why would they bother implementing something that could be called a breakthrough?

Because they are human, and humans don't always make sense.

[Malamasala]

Haha, don't talk about changing one number. It reminds me how it took 6 years for SE to change ward radius. One single integer to change, and it took 6 years to do it.

At least that event showed me that you might as well ask for the impossible, when the trivial is so hard to do.

[Cymmina]

As for Modus. You're joking right? Helices don't do enough damage... Christ, be glad I got most of that ranting out the way.
Back when it actually worked, I was pulling off 200~300 damage Helices which is some godly damage for 78MP. When I added merited Modus Veritas to the mix it was even better, roughly 12% better unless my Modus Maths is off (which it damn well could be). Now I can manage 400~500 damage Helices regularly and I'm blocked from making that better because SE decided to make the ability completely worthless.
Back when MP efficiency actually mattered they were the best damage/MP nukes in the game. Even though that's a completely moot point now - apart from completely countering your out right ignorance for how great they were - they're still pretty damn good. You'd be an idiot not to supplement a one minute nuking barrage with a Helix, unless you don't want to deal an extra 2k~4k damage with virtually no MP, time or hate cost at all. In which case more power to you.

Thank you for putting words in my mouth. I appreciate it. I've been SCH since well before the MV nerf. I know how it worked. I also never said "Helix spells aren't good", I said they "aren't a big enough deal that MV is worth caring about" as in "I don't think it needs to be fixed BEFORE anything else that is broken in the SCH department". It's obvious that my low opinion of MV means that I totally wouldn't cast a helix on anything that's going to live more than a couple minutes.

But that's ok, keep ranting about MV. Maybe they'll fix that instead of making us a contributing and worthwhile addition to any party. I enjoy being stuck playing WHM 99% of the time (No, not really).

[Sotek]

Thank you for putting words in my mouth. I appreciate it. I've been SCH since well before the MV nerf. I know how it worked. I also never said "Helix spells aren't good", I said they "aren't a big enough deal that MV is worth caring about" as in "I don't think it needs to be fixed BEFORE anything else that is broken in the SCH department". It's obvious that my low opinion of MV means that I totally wouldn't cast a helix on anything that's going to live more than a couple minutes.

But that's ok, keep ranting about MV. Maybe they'll fix that instead of making us a contributing and worthwhile addition to any party. I enjoy being stuck playing WHM 99% of the time (No, not really).

I read "Even before it was nerfed, it wasn't "good"." and obviously disagree, mainly because it was great before the nerf because back then mobs didn't live for minutes and was a great addition to a great set of spells. Sorry if I assumed anything; obviously I haven't got all my ranting out of the way.

Though you seem to have missed the point entirely, I only highlight Modus Veritas because it is the perfect example of how incompetent SE is when handling Scholar. I'm ranting equally - if not more - towards "Give Scholar Cure V" as I am saying "Fix Modus Veritas", you'll only see Modus highlighted because I have some hope SE will actually notice such an obviously broken ability and pay attention to any following or preceding suggestions, since they're obviously ignorant of anything related to Scholar. I consider giving Scholar Cure V as an equally obvious adjustment to make as fixing a broken ability, though one is obviously more simple than the other. That and I'm hardly going to highlight half a post explaining the hows and whys Scholar Cure V works.

I'm not quite sure what I'm doing wrong if you see a (fairly long) post with roughly half of it practically dedicated to shouting about White Mage and Cure V, and take the paragraph with an excessively highlighted "Fix Modus!" as the main focus of my post. If my posts were just about fixing Modus you'd have a point, but it's hardly something I'm fixated on, if anything Modus Veritas just happens to be something I'm popularly quoted on - so I probably do end up posting about it somewhat more - but again, that's just because it's so damn obvious that it's in need of an adjustment.

[Yugl]

Haha, don't talk about changing one number. It reminds me how it took 6 years for SE to change ward radius. One single integer to change, and it took 6 years to do it.

At least that event showed me that you might as well ask for the impossible, when the trivial is so hard to do.

Took 6 yrs to find*

Courtesy of spaghetti code.

[Malamasala]

Took 6 yrs to find*

Courtesy of spaghetti code.

Now, now. Don't pretend I'm dumb. All they have to do is search for the number 5!

[Edyth]

By the way, as WHM and BLM, I personally am able to cast all transportation spells. I'd just like to do it as the job I play.

Some more responses:

About Scholar not casting area of effect spells: I concede that that is a great point. However, if it weren't for just one spell, Diaga, Red Mage would not have any AoE spells either.

About the hypothetical Berserker job casting Recall and Retrace if it were from the past: Scholar is a mage, Berserker would not be. End of that argument.

Regarding the mention of crags being sealed off in the past: Recall spells do not use crags; in fact, teleport spells don't all use a crag either. All that's required is a telepoint.

About the grimoire: I still believe, being a book of magic, it HAS to acknowledge the existence of telepoints.

About White Mages and Black Mages suddenly becoming time travel mages: I agree. WHMs and BLMs shouldn't have suddenly become time travelers. Scholars, a job that only existed in the past (except for player Scholars who have traveled to the present via maws), would be a more appropriate job to return itself to that time period.

[Korpg]

About the hypothetical Berserker job casting Recall and Retrace if it were from the past: Scholar is a mage, Berserker would not be. End of that argument.


BLU is a mage, why can't they cast Teleport-Whitegate? Same point.

[Raksha]

BLU is a mage, why can't they cast Teleport-Whitegate? Same point.

Because BLU casts spells they learned from monsters, and no monster can cast Teleport-Whitegate.

Stop making me defend the recall/retrace people.

[Malamasala]

PLD and DRK are also mages, so it is many jobs to feed teleports to.

[brayen]

lol of all the things sch needs fixing and the current cost of retrace and warp scrolls how in the world would you be asking for these spells ? i mean sure it is something nice to ask for but really that has to be so far down the list of things to ask for, for sch i have no idea why not use the time for a more constructive thread.

[Korpg]

Because BLU casts spells they learned from monsters, and no monster can cast Teleport-Whitegate.

Stop making me defend the recall/retrace people.

I'm saying that the argument that because SCH came from the past, they must have the teleport spells is the weakest argument to come out of these forums since melee SMN.

[Sotek]

About the grimoire: I still believe, being a book of magic, it HAS to acknowledge the existence of telepoints.

Grimoire is for Stratagems, not a list of spells. It's only a big book of magic in the sense that it appears and reappears by magic. The article for Scholar basically says Scholars aren't as proficient with magics, but use the Grimoire (Stratagems) to enhance spells. It's a big book of strategies, not magic.


About Scholar not casting area of effect spells: I concede that that is a great point. However, if it weren't for just one spell, Diaga, Red Mage would not have any AoE spells either.

Red Mage doesn't have Manifestation/Accession. Nor does it have Recall/Retrace spells, despite being from the past.


About White Mages and Black Mages suddenly becoming time travel mages: I agree. WHMs and BLMs shouldn't have suddenly become time travelers. Scholars, a job that only existed in the past (except for player Scholars who have traveled to the present via maws), would be a more appropriate job to return itself to that time period.

Actually, it's not that White/Black Mage have time travel spells. They have a continuation of their current transportation spells that sent you to way-points (HP Crystal, 'Crag' Crystals) that aren't there in the present, but if you've happened to have time traveled with a Maw they'll send you through the Maw to that point. But if you want to pretend they're actually time travel spells, Scholar still has no sense having them. If anything Summoner should get them in that case, since they're getting an avatar that controls time meaning they have more control over time than any other job in the game; which isn't hard to do when no job has such a thing.


I'm saying that the argument that because SCH came from the past, they must have the teleport spells is the weakest argument to come out of these forums since melee SMN.

Actually I was saying that about five pages ago (b'-')b

Seriously, there's very little to add to this thread that I haven't already said pages back. I've only continued here to draw attention to things that are actually important and that's worked to a degree - I think six likes is the most I've ever seen in the Scholar section, shame this bullshit has nine, add a dislike button SE - so I'm done here. Arguing against "Give Scholar Recall/Retrace" is completely pointless since it's never going to happen anyway.

[Korpg]

Yeah Sotek, I kindof...um....borrowed or stole, doesn't make any difference, your idea....

Yeah, lets go with that.

[Sotek]

It's actually quite amazing that some people don't know what an analogy is. I even said Blue-Warp was an analogy, the least people could do is google the damn word if they don't know what it means.
If I really wanted to go for "Give Blue Mage Teleport - Whitegate" I'd bring up those event buffalo that would knock you into other zones, technically it's not impossibly for SE to make a monster with a move that can hit you all the way to Whitegate and have Blue Mage learn it and cast it on party members.

Actually, I like that idea. This thread is now about getting Blue Mage this spell.

[Tsuneo]

This whole thread is quite ridiculous. The last thing we need is spells that don't improve the job at all. How about spells that actually make SCH more unique rather than just make us a BLM or WHM clone.