Completely gut and rework WS accessibility

[Rayik]

I have a proposal. Whatever system SE used to come up with which jobs get what Weapon Skills, at this point, is completely out-dated and indefensible. The accessibility of native job's Weapon Skills needs to be completely reworked, and the restrictions lifted.

In a nutshell, here's my proposal; skill level-based Weapon Skills should be usable by any job that can reach the required level to use the skill, with the EXCEPTIONS being Weapon Skills unlocked via Empyean, Mythic, Relic, and Trial (Blue !! Proc) means. Weapons Skills earned through skill level (i.e. Red Lotus Blade, Earth Crusher, etc) should be usable by any job who can attain the appropriate level of skill with that weapon.

Seriously, it's ridiculous. Why is it that the main healer of the party(WHM) can use a devastating club Weapon Skill, Hexa-Strike, that a Paladin, a front-line job with a HIGHER skill level in the weapon, cannot? Why is it that a Warrior can use magic/elemental Weapons Skills like Red Lotus Blade, Sanguine Blade, etc, and a job that's main weapon IS a sword, and USES magic, cannot? What is the possible explanation for this? Game balance?

In doing this, yes, many more jobs would gain access to Red !! proc Weapon Skills. By golly, you might see shouts for more than the same 4 jobs from people looking to fight NM's... It makes no sense to me that jobs such as DRK get access to superior Weapon Skill for weapons they do not use, such as sword, over jobs like RDM, who's main weapon(when not stuck in the backline pretending to be WHM) is in fact, a sword.

If there is a logical explanation for the way the system currently works, I would love to hear it.

[Rayik]

Really, if a Dev could come in here and explain why certain jobs have certain Weapon Skills, and others don't, I'd be happy with that much. RDM gets Aoelian Edge(dagger), and not Sanguine Blade(sword), meanwhile we get Magian swords and not daggers... Um, ok...

[Vold]

They probably did it to encourage using different sub jobs. A rdm gets those sword weapon skills with war sub for example. And I prefer exclusive weapon skills to stay exclusive. Hexa to whm. Swift blade to PLD. DE to THF onl.... Yeah ok whatever DNC. You only got it because SE lacked imagination on an exclusive WS for you. Etc examples.

Sure, I agree. RDM should have those weapon skills as standard. But will you ever sub a melee job on RDM after you got them? Probably not short of THF or DRK if the BLM isn't leveled for stun/comes with warp. And that's probably why you won't see things adjusted in this department. But on the other hand what's right is right, and it is right for a RDM to have all native sword weapon skills.

[Rayik]

They probably did it to encourage using different sub jobs. A rdm gets those sword weapon skills with war sub for example. And I prefer exclusive weapon skills to stay exclusive. Hexa to whm. Swift blade to PLD. DE to THF onl.... Yeah ok whatever DNC. You only got it because SE lacked imagination on an exclusive WS for you. Etc examples.

Sure, I agree. RDM should have those weapon skills as standard. But will you ever sub a melee job on RDM after you got them? Probably not short of THF or DRK if the BLM isn't leveled for stun/comes with warp. And that's probably why you won't see things adjusted in this department. But on the other hand what's right is right, and it is right for a RDM to have all native sword weapon skills.

Good points. I can see how it gives job some variety, but at the very least I think it's in dire need of revision.

Yes, I can sub a melee job and get access to those ws's, but my point is the player shouldn't have to, when comparable jobs get them natively. The bulk of any jobs damage output with one-handed weapons comes from Dual-Wielding, but for RDM you have to choose to either Dual-Wield with crappy ws's, or single-hand it and have better ws's(and horrid TP generation). The way the ws's are distributed just seems sort of random and half-assed, like the way RDM's best ws's are with daggers, yet it's Mythic, Empyrean, Magian, and most job specific weapons are swords. Getting Shield Mastery with a F skill in Shield is a funny one too, but that's a whole other thing.

If there was more of a standard for DRK's(a job that gets the best sword ws's) to use swords, for example, I would gladly use sword on that job too, but the game itself works against it(2H bonuses, Desperate Blows, etc.). It just seems very sloppy to me; I'm just asking the Devs to clean things up and make things a bit more consistent. I'm not asking for new gear or JA's, just fix what we have.

[Razushu]

Yes, I can sub a melee job and get access to those ws's, but my point is the player shouldn't have to, when comparable jobs get them natively. The bulk of any jobs damage output with one-handed weapons comes from Dual-Wielding, but for RDM you have to choose to either Dual-Wield with crappy ws's, or single-hand it and have better ws's(and horrid TP generation). The way the ws's are distributed just seems sort of random and half-assed, like the way RDM's best ws's are with daggers, yet it's Mythic, Empyrean, Magian, and most job specific weapons are swords. Getting Shield Mastery with a F skill in Shield is a funny one too, but that's a whole other thing.

I think that was done on purpose, as a mage/melee hybrid you have to chose between higher DPS or better WS. I'd say they'll fix shield skill sooner or later, it's pretty silly as is.


If there was more of a standard for DRK's(a job that gets the best sword ws's) to use swords, for example, I would gladly use sword on that job too, but the game itself works against it(2H bonuses, Desperate Blows, etc.). It just seems very sloppy to me; I'm just asking the Devs to clean things up and make things a bit more consistent. I'm not asking for new gear or JA's, just fix what we have.

Looking at who WS and weapon skill levels are awarded to jobs to sort of reflect how someone would learn things in real life(I'm aware magic doesn't exist fyi), but if you divide your focus over multiple topics you'll learn lots of each although never as much as someone who focuses on less topics. I think it is fairly consistent as is.

In the example of RDM, a RDM is someone who spends their time divided up between learning to fence, use black magic and learning to heal. As a result of this divided focus they never reach the peak of any one of these fields but have decent knowledge of all. This means they never learn the most powerful techniques of them, but will have a variety of skills.

When looked at against a DRK, someone who has focused on offense and has only dabbled in black magic themselves and completely ignored healing magics. As they are more focused on fewer skills(in this case the martial arts) they will be better with any weapons they've picked up.

[Malamasala]

Seriously, it's ridiculous. Why is it that the main healer of the party(WHM) can use a devastating club Weapon Skill, Hexa-Strike, that a Paladin, a front-line job with a HIGHER skill level in the weapon, cannot?

My guess is that if PLD and WHM both had Hexa strike, everyone would go "Why are you meleeing on WHM? The PLD can do Hexa Strike!" SE probably just wanted to toss a hint that they'd like to see WHMs meleeing.

I'm more confused why they gave them both the club and staff EX-skills. Would have made more sense to make WHM the club master, and then SMN the staff master.

[Razushu]

My guess is that if PLD and WHM both had Hexa strike, everyone would go "Why are you meleeing on WHM? The PLD can do Hexa Strike!" SE probably just wanted to toss a hint that they'd like to see WHMs meleeing.

I'm more confused why they gave them both the club and staff EX-skills. Would have made more sense to make WHM the club master, and then SMN the staff master.

PLD gets all the good sword and Great Sword WS because they're based on knights pretty much. WHM gets all the good club and staff WS, because they seem to be influenced by the D&D cleric class. Which was a melee healer that could only use blunt weapons. So it makes pretty perfect sense to make them masters of the blunt weapons. BLM, SMN, SCH etc. don't get all the WS of they're class because they we're implemented as mages pure and simple. The exception to this is RDM who is missing the heavy hitting WS natively(whether right or wrong) for balance issues. As in if they're DDing they have to choose between big WS numbers or higher DPS.

[Kristal]

In the example of RDM, a RDM is someone who spends their time divided up between learning to fence, use black magic and learning to heal. As a result of this divided focus they never reach the peak of any one of these fields but have decent knowledge of all. This means they never learn the most powerful techniques of them, but will have a variety of skills.

Elemental weaponskills are a combination of magic and melee. The very thing that defines Red Mage. We even get spells to enhance our regular melee strikes with added magic damage. But not on weaponskills, no...

Red Lotus Blade, Seraph Blade and Sanguine Blade are all WS that should have been RDM main from the start.

[Rayik]

Elemental weaponskills are a combination of magic and melee. The very thing that defines Red Mage. We even get spells to enhance our regular melee strikes with added magic damage. But not on weaponskills, no...

Red Lotus Blade, Seraph Blade and Sanguine Blade are all WS that should have been RDM main from the start.

What's hilarious, is that RDM gets some of the dagger elemental WS, and not sword. What the Flying Fuuuu..............

[Razushu]

Elemental weaponskills are a combination of magic and melee. The very thing that defines Red Mage. We even get spells to enhance our regular melee strikes with added magic damage. But not on weaponskills, no...

Red Lotus Blade, Seraph Blade and Sanguine Blade are all WS that should have been RDM main from the start.

By that logic jobs without elemental magic shouldn't get access to elemental WS. WS distribution tends to be based on the questions, Is this weapon a focus of the job? Or do we[the devs] feel it is balanced to give them these skills natively? RDM isn't a single focus job it's a 3-way hybrid and lack of top tier in any one field is just a pitfall of this style. As it stands they seem to want RDM to have to choose between high DPS(/NIN) and access to better WS(/WAR etc.).

RDM is fine as a light DD/support role. I'd happily party with one. The biggest obstacle to RDM melee is community viewpoint. If we had more RDMs that could melee while providing support where needed, this viewpoint would change.

On Red lotus blade I could agree with you. But Seraph /Sanguine blade are light/dark element which RDM doesn't really have access to. Plus in the case of Sanguine blade it's highest level WS sword skill gets you. Seeing how RDM is a "part-time" melee it makes no sense that they should learn the strongest attacks with a weapon.

[Ironside]

Plus in the case of Sanguine blade it's highest level WS sword skill gets you. Seeing how RDM is a "part-time" melee it makes no sense that they should learn the strongest attacks with a weapon.

I think the confusing part about RDM not getting Sanguine Blade is that their usual melee, exclusive, and iconic weapons are swords, while they get the high-end weaponskills (including Aeolian Edge, which is the skill equivalent of Sanguine Blade) of Dagger but not Sword.

[Razushu]

I think the confusing part about RDM not getting Sanguine Blade is that their usual melee, exclusive, and iconic weapons are swords, while they get the high-end weaponskills (including Aeolian Edge, which is the skill equivalent of Sanguine Blade) of Dagger but not Sword.

That is a weird one. Maybe SE are playing the same game as with the subjob. High DPS or strong WS, not both. Good WS poor weapon selection vs. good weapon choice poorer WS.

[Malamasala]

because they seem to be influenced by the D&D cleric class.

I recall them using clubs much much much more than staffs. Staffs were more for tossing spells than hitting.

[Razushu]

I recall them using clubs much much much more than staffs. Staffs were more for tossing spells than hitting.

Yeah, which is how they tend to be played in ffxi when meleeing lol. They could use both and were locked off edged weapons. So they only had a choice of club or staff, which could argualy be the reason SE gave the best of both to WHM.

[Malamasala]

Yeah, which is how they tend to be played in ffxi when meleeing lol. They could use both and were locked off edged weapons. So they only had a choice of club or staff, which could argualy be the reason SE gave the best of both to WHM.

Honestly though, I don't get why WHM is locked out of bows. In the past bows were even more of their main attacks than clubs or staffs. I guess they felt like a healing RNG would remove the need for the job RNG. That or SE just wanted to avoid using old content for new FFXI mechanics.

[Razushu]

Honestly though, I don't get why WHM is locked out of bows. In the past bows were even more of their main attacks than clubs or staffs. I guess they felt like a healing RNG would remove the need for the job RNG. That or SE just wanted to avoid using old content for new FFXI mechanics.

I think it's the influence of "Cleric". Weapons designed to kill aren't allowed. Blunt weapons are defensive, so they're ok. It kind of makes sense when you think the job is dedicated to keeping others alive(I'm aware they still bludgeon things to death, hence the "kind of").

[Ironside]

Honestly though, I don't get why WHM is locked out of bows. In the past bows were even more of their main attacks than clubs or staffs. I guess they felt like a healing RNG would remove the need for the job RNG. That or SE just wanted to avoid using old content for new FFXI mechanics.

Minor nitpick: which games aside from FF4 let WHMs use bows? They've been using hammers and staves since FF1 otherwise, from what I can remember.

[Rayik]

On Red lotus blade I could agree with you. But Seraph /Sanguine blade are light/dark element which RDM doesn't really have access to. Plus in the case of Sanguine blade it's highest level WS sword skill gets you. Seeing how RDM is a "part-time" melee it makes no sense that they should learn the strongest attacks with a weapon.

Highest level does not equal strongest attacks. Raging Rush out damages Fell Cleave against single mobs by a long shot. Vorpal Blade trounces Sanguine unless you're brewing. And by this logic, RDM shouldn't have Aoelian Edge, but they do.

[Solonuke]

My biggest gripe about weapon skills are that 90% of them are never used besides for staggering. Most weapon skills are very weak as they either are elemental weapon skills, enfeebling ones that really don't seem to help much on enfeebling the mob. Why would I use Full Break if I could just use Raging Rush and do 1-2k damage outside and 4k inside Abyssea for other reasons than stagger the mob?

Basically this thread demands that warriors should get every single red and blue proc, so you might as well skip the other jobs in this game.

[Atomic_Skull]

I think it's the influence of "Cleric". Weapons designed to kill aren't allowed. Blunt weapons are defensive, so they're ok.

Except that blunt weapons are not defensive. They are in fact very effective melee weapons against armor. Put a steel helm on and then let someone hit you in the head with a warhammer or a morningstar and see how well it protects you (it doesn't).

Maces, morningstars, hammers, mauls, etc. were very brutal, nasty weapons. There was nothing "non killing" about them at all.

[Razushu]

Except that blunt weapons are not defensive. They are in fact very effective melee weapons against armor. Put a steel helm on and then let someone hit you in the head with a warhammer or a morningstar and see how well it protects you (it doesn't).

Maces, morningstars, hammers, mauls, etc. were very brutal, nasty weapons. There was nothing "non killing" about them at all.

They're more defensive than edged weapons, which is usually enough for video games lol. It's far easier not to kill someone with a blunt weapon, than it is to not kill with a sword( /poke = dead:D)

[Razushu]

Highest level does not equal strongest attacks. Raging Rush out damages Fell Cleave against single mobs by a long shot. Vorpal Blade trounces Sanguine unless you're brewing. And by this logic, RDM shouldn't have Aoelian Edge, but they do.

SE seems to want to make RDM choose between things when it comes to melee. Your choice of sub job will give you either higher DPS(NIN) or stronger WS(WAR), and with weapons you get great selection but lesser choice in WS, or poor selection in weapons and good WS.