FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto [Blue Mage]

[SpankWustler]

Shouldn't this be under a "proc" thread...

Maybe. It is the system that's weird, but Blue Mage suffers more from that weirdness than any other job due to the mechanics of changing spells. I personally think it's worth discussing any time comes up, because currently participating in Voidwatch on Blue Mage is a truly miserable undertaking.

[Nightfyre]

Shouldn't this be under a "proc" thread... Seems a waste of space.
I will once again suggest that you read the discussion so that you might understand why it's particularly relevant to BLU.

That said, I should mention that not everything is a proc, but it's quite a large list. Slycer, who leads the Voidwatch group I run with, has been compiling a list of procs (http://bit.ly/voidwatch) post-update from various sources. At this point it's more or less accurate, a few potential procs that haven't been confirmed in-shell yet. It does give us a bit more room to work with for spell sets (assuming nothing's missing of course), but the issue of the global cooldown is still entirely in SE's hands.

Prothescar doesn't seem to have posted his Heavy Strike findings here yet, hope he won't mind me doing so.

Finally got around to testing Heavy Strike on Hahava, and it's kind of bittersweet. Was able to squeeze in 4-5 casts per pop between Fanatic's and landed Sudden Lunges (more below).

In STR gear with Sole Sushi, I was having an astoundingly hard time landing the spell at all, when it did hit it hit for 300~500. On the 4th or 5th run I decided to try TP gear for the extra ACC, and it made a large difference (obviously); landed far more casts, but the damage obviously suffered. CA+Efflux damage was pretty nice considering the mob, but I didn't get a large sample size on that since I didn't feel like running back 50+ times.

A sample of the damage:
No CA:
383
464
465
333
479

CA:
980
1206



Overall the awful accuracy had given me the overwhelming urge to strangle badgers. Would seem that my previous premonitions were wrong and the ACC is pretty damn bad. :\

For comparison, Sudden Lunge and Vanity Dive had more casts and landed almost constantly in STR gear.
While Hahava is relatively evasive at 90, level correction reduction and 7 skill/level on the way to 95 should make him much less difficult to hit in the test server environment. With sushi added in, a noticeably low hitrate on a 90 cap NM is downright ridiculous. If the current trend of high-evasion NMs continues, Heavy Strike's hitrate will be floored on the NMs that it would be most useful on and it may not even be worth casting for anything besides fodder mobs and older content (meaning Abyssea and earlier at 95 cap).

Yes, we can make trades in gear and it looks like we'll be getting a decent amount of acc gear next update. That severely reduces the benefit of the spell though, because we'll have to drop a significant amount of damage gear for the spell to land.

[Helel]

Well that blows. Looks like it's time to work on acc swords I guess. The news that sudden lunge lasts for 10s on hahava is pretty insane though.

Edit: yo devs, increase the mp cost of dark orb to 999 if you'd like, but please lower the acc penalty of heavy strike.

[saevel]

Considering Heavy Strike is like 36MP it's to be expected. Or were people expecting to become like pre-nerf RNG?

SE already said it was meant to be an all or nothing attack. It already hits harder then spells that are double it's MP cost, just use /THF if you absolutely want it to land for high damage. Otherwise it's a gamble.

[SpankWustler]

just use /THF if you absolutely want it to land for high damage.

You're better off with another spell if you're already subbing Thief, since Heavy Strike is a critical hit right out of the bag.

[Tashan]

Looks like I won't be doing much of VW then.

[Helel]

Considering Heavy Strike is like 36MP it's to be expected. Or were people expecting to become like pre-nerf RNG?

SE already said it was meant to be an all or nothing attack. It already hits harder then spells that are double it's MP cost, just use /THF if you absolutely want it to land for high damage. Otherwise it's a gamble.

This comparison doesn't make sense. Originally RNG did not have to worry about pDIF (level correction). I'm not sure how that applies to Heavy Strike. As Spank points out as well, considering Heavy Strike is already 100% crit, /thf is pretty much a wasted SJ, unless you plan on casting another spell instead.

[Prothscar]

Having one spell that makes us a presence in VW is hardly asking for much. Not a single one of our spells before Heavy Strike had any promise of ever performing even close to admirably on anything worth a shit. Heavy Strike was the answer to this problem, and so SE nerfed it into just as much uselessness as any other spell we have. All we are good for is proccing, and even in that we're slow and inefficient.

Recent tests indicate that Sudden Lunge has 70 +/- more accuracy than Heavy Strike. That is completely unacceptable.

[Tashan]

70 ACC is pretty easy to make up in this day and age though.

[saevel]

Having one spell that makes us a presence in VW is hardly asking for much. Not a single one of our spells before Heavy Strike had any promise of ever performing even close to admirably on anything worth a shit. Heavy Strike was the answer to this problem, and so SE nerfed it into just as much uselessness as any other spell we have. All we are good for is proccing, and even in that we're slow and inefficient.

Recent tests indicate that Sudden Lunge has 70 +/- more accuracy than Heavy Strike. That is completely unacceptable.

Take a look at Sidewinder / Slugshot if you want to see what HS was modeled after. One powerful yet unreliable attack.

My comment about /THF and SA was it you absolutely wanted to guarantee it to land, I know its a 100% crit. Seriously what are you guys wanting? To be the best healer, best damage dealer, best crowd control in the game all at once? Currently @90 BLU is beyond a kick a$$ DD, especially in short burst's like how VWNM's work. White's proced you run in and slam all your heavy spells.

You complain that your hitting weapon the T4 Sandy VWNM, guys Fudo SAMs are hitting for 400, Ukon WAR's are getting 300~500, and so forth. The only DD that was dealing somewhat decent damage was the JR RNG. That four armed bandit just has ridiculous -PDT/MDT, nothing we hit him with was dealing large amounts of damage. The other T4's weren't as annoying but nobody did insane damage on any of them.

It sounds too much like everyone wants to be the hero and suddenly out-damage everyone else. The other melee jobs are complaining that BLU's got too much, and the BLU's are complaining that they don't have enough. Hmm..

[Scuro]

with the VWNMs, I believe the problem is our 1 minute down time when putting on new spells, which makes it a bitch to proc when the whole list can be a proc spell. SE does need to limit that, but the people here are not asking for a spell in which, is the god mode of gods, no. Alot of the physical arsenal is fantastic, and I'm sure anyone would agree, its extremely strong, however. If you are wanting to fight the more serious NMs the higher tier, big daddys, the physical spells damage does reduce due to the caps on them. That is what the people here are getting at in this forum, is that the spell should not have recieved a gimp. I on the other hand, see no issues with our spells, and I'm completely content, however I have not used this spell yet so I'm not sure how bad the accuracy gimp was. Yet the problem is having 100% crit doesn't mean a whole lot if you can't hit it, especially with higher tier NMs that have very nasty evasion. Nobody really /THF anymore, and as it has been said, 100% crit makes it pointless. If you really wanna get useful just stack up on the acc and dex when using it, if it is that bad that is. I think you are over exaggerating your claims by saying we are all bitching about these things, because alot of us are not, we are thankful for what is coming and what we have. While there are some minor tweaks and adjustments to the things we desire, we are not as overbearing as some other classes.

The claim you are making is like when the job came out, everybody was like "omg blu is a god mode job! overpowered, gimp it nao!", but in truth it is not, it always has its ways of balancing out, and of course we BLU's want the very best out of our job, because well.... we are the true hybrid class in this game. We deserve to do all the roles, but should we do them the best? No, never. And I really don't think thats what anyone is asking for here, we are simply asking to be competition for w/e may come.

[Prothscar]

Take a look at Sidewinder / Slugshot if you want to see what HS was modeled after. One powerful yet unreliable attack.

You're comparing a melee blue magic spell to a ranged weaponskill. Stop it.


My comment about /THF and SA was it you absolutely wanted to guarantee it to land, I know its a 100% crit. Seriously what are you guys wanting? To be the best healer, best damage dealer, best crowd control in the game all at once? Currently @90 BLU is beyond a kick a$$ DD, especially in short burst's like how VWNM's work. White's proced you run in and slam all your heavy spells.

We aren't even close to being the best healer, we are lightyears away from being the best DD, and even coming close to assuming that we are the best CC in the game is a laughable endeavor. BLU is not a "kick ass DD", unless we're talking about trash mobs T and below. All of our "heavy spells" on a VWNM are absolutely negligible. CDC is our highest and most consistent form of damage on high level targets, and it's hardly much better than any of our pitiful magic. You have absolutely no idea what you're spouting off, I implore you to cease and desist spreading your idiotic misinformation.


You complain that your hitting weapon the T4 Sandy VWNM, guys Fudo SAMs are hitting for 400, Ukon WAR's are getting 300~500, and so forth. The only DD that was dealing somewhat decent damage was the JR RNG. That four armed bandit just has ridiculous -PDT/MDT, nothing we hit him with was dealing large amounts of damage. The other T4's weren't as annoying but nobody did insane damage on any of them.

He doesn't have PDT and MDT, it's called level correction. Go out there on the test server at level 95 and I guarantee you'll be seeing higher Tachi: Fudos and Ukko's Furies than 400-500. You're also ignoring Summoner and Wildfire Corsairs/Rangers, the former has almost completely hate free magical damage and the latter has a consistent and very powerful ranged magic weaponskill.


It sounds too much like everyone wants to be the hero and suddenly out-damage everyone else. The other melee jobs are complaining that BLU's got too much, and the BLU's are complaining that they don't have enough. Hmm..

No, everyone wants to be on even ground. No one wants to be any stronger than anyone else unless they're incredibly greedy and don't understand basic game mechanics. On that note, the melees complaining about BLU getting too much fit into the latter group; they probably look and see the few screenshots of BLU doing 3~5k with all of their cooldowns blown and using sneak attack, meaning it can only be done every 3 minutes as Efflux has a 3 minute cooldown, and assuming that that's the damage we get on everything at every time. No, that is not how this works. BLU does not put out that kind of damage on anything that's worth a f**k, it's been the problem with BLU since its inception.

[SpankWustler]

To summarize everything forever:

Physical Blue Magic has low attack. Very low attack. Unlike other melee job's attack values, nothing can be done by a Blue Mage to increase this low value.

Currently, a Blue Mage is better off focusing entirely on melee against a target of sufficiently high defense and level.

[saevel]

You're comparing a melee blue magic spell to a ranged weaponskill. Stop it.



We aren't even close to being the best healer, we are lightyears away from being the best DD, and even coming close to assuming that we are the best CC in the game is a laughable endeavor. BLU is not a "kick ass DD", unless we're talking about trash mobs T and below. All of our "heavy spells" on a VWNM are absolutely negligible. CDC is our highest and most consistent form of damage on high level targets, and it's hardly much better than any of our pitiful magic. You have absolutely no idea what you're spouting off, I implore you to cease and desist spreading your idiotic misinformation.



He doesn't have PDT and MDT, it's called level correction. Go out there on the test server at level 95 and I guarantee you'll be seeing higher Tachi: Fudos and Ukko's Furies than 400-500. You're also ignoring Summoner and Wildfire Corsairs/Rangers, the former has almost completely hate free magical damage and the latter has a consistent and very powerful ranged magic weaponskill.



No, everyone wants to be on even ground. No one wants to be any stronger than anyone else unless they're incredibly greedy and don't understand basic game mechanics. On that note, the melees complaining about BLU getting too much fit into the latter group; they probably look and see the few screenshots of BLU doing 3~5k with all of their cooldowns blown and using sneak attack, meaning it can only be done every 3 minutes as Efflux has a 3 minute cooldown, and assuming that that's the damage we get on everything at every time. No, that is not how this works. BLU does not put out that kind of damage on anything that's worth a f**k, it's been the problem with BLU since its inception.

WTF are you smoking.... Seriously you need to share it. BLU's not one of the best DD ... seriously WTF! I know your just trying to beg on SE to give you more damage output, but at least try to hide it.

Literally all your saying is "HS can't out damage out jobs emp WS, SE please make it better". It's 32MP and 2 set points, you want to know what else is 32MP?

Blizzard (yes Tier 1) 30MP
Thunder Tier 1, 37MP

But your BLU's not BLM's, So,

Mandibular Bite, 38MP
Delta Thrust 28MP
Empty Thrash 33MP
Vanity Dive 58MP

And you can sit there and straight faced tell me that SE should just let Heavy Strike be a heavy damage spell that beats all the others...


On that note, the melees complaining about BLU getting too much fit into the latter group; they probably look and see the few screenshots of BLU doing 3~5k with all of their cooldowns blown and using sneak attack, meaning it can only be done every 3 minutes as Efflux has a 3 minute cooldown, and assuming that that's the damage we get on everything at every time.

And yet .. blowing all my cooldowns on every other spell, none of them reach the highs of HS except VC, and that's only with SA. HS on the other hand can hit $K+ with just CA and Efflux.

Seriously ... wtf did you expect with a 32MP 2set point spell ....

[Prothscar]

Your post just strengthens the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Troll harder, sir.

Also while we're on the topic of comparing completely ridiculous things, compare any average BLU spell with one melee round of a melee DD. 0 MP, same or more damage. Your BLM gets to stand out of range and away from the powerful AoEs that NMs do these days, BLU does not.

[Tashan]

To summarize everything forever:

Physical Blue Magic has low attack. Very low attack. Unlike other melee job's attack values, nothing can be done by a Blue Mage to increase this low value.

Currently, a Blue Mage is better off focusing entirely on melee against a target of sufficiently high defense and level.

I don't even think increasing the ATK of Blue Magic Spells will be enough tbh.


WTF are you smoking.... Seriously you need to share it. BLU's not one of the best DD ... seriously WTF! I know your just trying to beg on SE to give you more damage output, but at least try to hide it.

Literally all your saying is "HS can't out damage out jobs emp WS, SE please make it better". It's 32MP and 2 set points, you want to know what else is 32MP?

Blizzard (yes Tier 1) 30MP
Thunder Tier 1, 37MP

But your BLU's not BLM's, So,

Mandibular Bite, 38MP
Delta Thrust 28MP
Empty Thrash 33MP
Vanity Dive 58MP

And you can sit there and straight faced tell me that SE should just let Heavy Strike be a heavy damage spell that beats all the others...


You're not listening to what's being said carefully enough. Allow me to assist and elaborate.

--

1) Blue Mage currently has no options for reliable damage on high-level notorious monsters. That includes meleeing, weaponskills, and spells. Even our Empyrean Weaponskill, while much better than anything else, is still not enough to be comparable.

--

2) Unlike jobs such as Black Mage, increasing MP spell costs does not reward Blue Mage with more respectable damage spells against high-level notorious monsters.

--

3) In regards to MP:Damage ratio Blue Mage excels in neither. In the game currently, a Blue Mage loses out against high-level monsters because:
--> A) The MP it spends over time does not reward it with good damage.
--> B) An Inherently low MP pool and few recovery MP recovery options.
--> B i)And in cases where there is the option to invest in bettering these (e.g. Atma, Equipment) it must be done at the loss of more damage, scaling MP:Damage even more unfavourably.

--

4) Heavy Strike is singurlarly a spell which finally takes steps in the right direction for Blue Mage options. Keep in mind that a Blue Mage's only options are Chant Du Cygne and Heavy Strike.

Now scratch CDC as not everyone has that option.

--
5) vs High Level NMs:

--> A) Against a High-Level NM, a 2-Handed Weapon User can do 400-600 damage within 10 by meleeing alone. Within 30, you'd expect at least triple of what a Blue Mage can do. And then there will be weaponskills. These lead to good Damage over Time.

--> B) Against a High-Level NM, a BLM can do 2000+ within 30 seconds pessimistically. This also can be extended similarly to SMNs. This leads to good spike damage.

--> C) Against a High Level NM HS only does 400-600 damage. This only comes every 30 seconds. Better damage (1000-1200) can be done with Chain Affinity and Efflux, but this can only be used once every 3:20 Minutes optimistically.

Extend this over a period of time and you neither have good DoT or Spike Damage.

--

6) The best thing a Blue Mage is likely to, and can, get is a spell which does average damage. In order for this to work, the spell would need to be "spammable" with a low MP cost in order to keep up the DoT.

A higher MP cost cannot be justified because of the lack of options elsewhere.

[Prothscar]

Also, he's not taking into consideration TP feed from most BLU spells. Every hit that lands off of a blue magic spell = 10 TP before subtle blow.

[Tashan]

Subtle blow affects our spells? Wow that's news to me.

Either way, I personally like to turn a Blindeye to that arguement xD.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Subtle blow affects our spells? Wow that's news to me.

Either way, I personally like to turn a Blindeye to that arguement xD.

http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Subtle_Blow

* Despite its name, Subtle Blow also reduces the TP given to enemies from damaging spells.

[Covenant]

Originally Posted by SpankWustler
To summarize everything forever:

Physical Blue Magic has low attack. Very low attack. Unlike other melee job's attack values, nothing can be done by a Blue Mage to increase this low value.

Currently, a Blue Mage is better off focusing entirely on melee against a target of sufficiently high defense and level.
I don't even think increasing the ATK of Blue Magic Spells will be enough tbh.
WTF are you smoking.... Seriously you need to share it. BLU's not one of the best DD ... seriously WTF! I know your just trying to beg on SE to give you more damage output, but at least try to hide it.

Literally all your saying is "HS can't out damage out jobs emp WS, SE please make it better". It's 32MP and 2 set points, you want to know what else is 32MP?

Blizzard (yes Tier 1) 30MP
Thunder Tier 1, 37MP

But your BLU's not BLM's, So,

Mandibular Bite, 38MP
Delta Thrust 28MP
Empty Thrash 33MP
Vanity Dive 58MP

And you can sit there and straight faced tell me that SE should just let Heavy Strike be a heavy damage spell that beats all the others...
You're not listening to what's being said carefully enough. Allow me to assist and elaborate.

--

1) Blue Mage currently has no options for reliable damage on high-level notorious monsters. That includes meleeing, weaponskills, and spells. Even our Empyrean Weaponskill, while much better than anything else, is still not enough to be comparable.

--

2) Unlike jobs such as Black Mage, increasing MP spell costs does not reward Blue Mage with more respectable damage spells against high-level notorious monsters.

--

3) In regards to MPamage ratio Blue Mage excels in neither. In the game currently, a Blue Mage loses out against high-level monsters because:
--> A) The MP it spends over time does not reward it with good damage.
--> B) An Inherently low MP pool and few recovery MP recovery options.
--> B i)And in cases where there is the option to invest in bettering these (e.g. Atma, Equipment) it must be done at the loss of more damage, scaling MPamage even more unfavourably.

--

4) Heavy Strike is singurlarly a spell which finally takes steps in the right direction for Blue Mage options. Keep in mind that a Blue Mage's only options are Chant Du Cygne and Heavy Strike.

Now scratch CDC as not everyone has that option.

--
5) vs High Level NMs:

--> A) Against a High-Level NM, a 2-Handed Weapon User can do 400-600 damage within 10 by meleeing alone. Within 30, you'd expect at least triple of what a Blue Mage can do. And then there will be weaponskills. These lead to good Damage over Time.

--> B) Against a High-Level NM, a BLM can do 2000+ within 30 seconds pessimistically. This also can be extended similarly to SMNs. This leads to good spike damage.

--> C) Against a High Level NM HS only does 400-600 damage. This only comes every 30 seconds. Better damage (1000-1200) can be done with Chain Affinity and Efflux, but this can only be used once every 3:20 Minutes optimistically.

Extend this over a period of time and you neither have good DoT or Spike Damage...

@tashan AND other crybabies. You use jobs whose only purpose is to do specific damage.. DoT(DRK, SAM, etc) and spike damage(BLM) to explain why blues are unfairly limited. This is the reason ALL jobs that cry foul for additional melee/magic options.

HOWEVER, blue mages are a "HYBRID" job. Like a lot of the other "HYBRID" jobs blue does a lot of other things other than the specific types of damage you mentioned. The cost of doing "OTHER" things is a lowered performance in the "MAIN" melee/magic areas. A blackmage can't cure bomb magic fruit and healing breeze. A warrior or samara can't diamond hide a party, nor conal breath a group of mobs at once.

Not only that but you use a specific mob(HNM, VNM, "high" mobs) in your arguments why blue are unfairly weak against. ALL jobs take a hit to their productivity when talking about these specific mobs.

THIS IS GAME BALANCE.

[Tashan]

@tashan AND other crybabies

Don't ever refer to me like that again.

My reply was not intended for you. It was an explaination for Saeval. But since you want to be captain obvious, I'll indulge you.

It was not a discussion about a Blue Mage being a Hybrid Job.

It was not a discussion about being able to cure, enfeeble, buff or proc.

It was not a discussion about every job's productivity.

It was not a discussion about Notorious Monsters.

It was a discussion about Saeval's statement, Level 95 Findings and Voidwatch mechanics:


Considering Heavy Strike is like 36MP it's to be expected. Or were people expecting to become like pre-nerf RNG?

SE already said it was meant to be an all or nothing attack. It already hits harder then spells that are double it's MP cost, just use /THF if you absolutely want it to land for high damage. Otherwise it's a gamble.



Literally all your saying is "HS can't out damage out jobs emp WS, SE please make it better". It's 32MP and 2 set points, you want to know what else is 32MP?

Blizzard (yes Tier 1) 30MP
Thunder Tier 1, 37MP

But your BLU's not BLM's, So,

Mandibular Bite, 38MP
Delta Thrust 28MP
Empty Thrash 33MP
Vanity Dive 58MP

And you can sit there and straight faced tell me that SE should just let Heavy Strike be a heavy damage spell that beats all the others...

If you want to discuss your views on Blue Mage's productivity, then make a proper post.

But know you will just be wasting time if you can't even read the damn thread.

[Prothscar]

He's a disgruntled melee RDM who I doubt even has BLU leveled, I wouldn't expect him to care about BLU's shortcomings and instead is one of those who seems to want to inflate our abilities into godliness even though every role we can fill is filled at 66% the efficiency and productivity as any other job that can fill that role.

[Nightfyre]

It's not like Covenant ever stops to think about what he's posting or responding to anyway.

Large groups benefit from specialization because they have enough party slots to fill all needed roles with the best instead of hybrids. Small groups can become more functional with hybrid jobs, but Blue Mage's design (utility, notably in debuffs) and the mechanics of current lowmannable content (easymode) are at odds and it often finds itself without a strong place in these settings. When specifically discussing high-level content (read: non-easymode), Blue Mage falls behind more than most due to mechanics Covenant has probably never even looked at, much less attempted to comprehend. Attack is more valuable as enemy level increases. Our spell attack is lower than any melee's, so we suffer more than most. I've covered issues with debuffs previously.

THIS IS GAME BALANCE is the funniest thing I've ever heard given the quality of his "balanced" suggestions.

[Scuro]

@tashan AND other crybabies. You use jobs whose only purpose is to do specific damage.. DoT(DRK, SAM, etc) and spike damage(BLM) to explain why blues are unfairly limited. This is the reason ALL jobs that cry foul for additional melee/magic options.

HOWEVER, blue mages are a "HYBRID" job. Like a lot of the other "HYBRID" jobs blue does a lot of other things other than the specific types of damage you mentioned. The cost of doing "OTHER" things is a lowered performance in the "MAIN" melee/magic areas. A blackmage can't cure bomb magic fruit and healing breeze. A warrior or samara can't diamond hide a party, nor conal breath a group of mobs at once.

Not only that but you use a specific mob(HNM, VNM, "high" mobs) in your arguments why blue are unfairly weak against. ALL jobs take a hit to their productivity when talking about these specific mobs.

THIS IS GAME BALANCE.

I'm not going to lie dude, I read your posts to laugh. You see when I or some of these other fellows pitch an idea, it has negatives, and most importantly it has positives! Your suggestions, are making crap that nobody cares about anymore, be used, even though we have out grown them. The point that these gents are trying to get at, that you are obviously lapsing in, is that BLU is desired NOW because it is a yellow procer, and it procs in VW. THAT IS IT, if content were to shift, do you know just how useless we would be in the community? We can be out tanked, we can be out DD'd, we can be out enfeeble, out buffed, and out healed.

While I have always said this class should never overshadow another class, this class is the TRUE DD MAGE. Its I'm willing to bet that 85% of the BLU community AT LEAST is a DD, therefore we should be on par with other DDs. Right now we have a nice spot light because we can do things that only our job can do, but if that were to change, if new content were introduced or made extremely relevant, many of us would be back to where we were. Solo'n in campaign and imps in the mire. I believe that is what these people are trying to get at, that we can shred fodder mobs like they are nothing, but when it comes to the big kahunas, we got nothing. The spells of HNMs in the days were breaths and cannonball SATACA, and even that was sheer garbage in comparison to other DDs.

The whole point of these updates as mentioned form the beginning of when Abyssea was introduced, was to give the game options for minimal players to accomplish goals that would take 18 people. So again, the job shouldn't eclipse all other forms of DD, and honestly, I doubt it ever could, but it should be at least in the same league, and as it stands we are not even in the same ball park. We finally got in the same sport, but that doesn't say much.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's a better DD mage than all the others, but it's still a Hybrid so... inferior to the actual jobs.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Sadly there's no real prize for outmeleeing BLM/SMN/SCH/RDM/WHM(and bard).

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Sadly there's no real prize for outmeleeing BLM/SMN/SCH/RDM/WHM(and bard).

True enough.

But the point was more that it out-melees the mages but not the DD, therefore it's the hybrid it ultimately is.

[Tashan]

It is a hybrid, and in small group content it truly shines. However, with newer content moving towards old school 3 Party Alliances, being a hybrid loses to teams of specialists.

That, in actuallity, is how Blue Mage should be.

For Blue Mage to find a place in newer content it needs to have something which makes it into a specialist. However, at the same time you risk the job becoming over dominant. Or rather, LV75 Red Mage.

Back before the LV cap raise to 80, Red Mage was practically "God Tier". There wasn't a single Strategy in the game which didn't involve having a RDM besides KSNM30 BLM Burn. It was a hybrid job turned specialist as it was the only one which could Refresh & Haste cycle, stun, main heal, and enfeeble all in one slot. If it wasn't for RDM, TP Burns would never have worked.

Nowadays RDMs have lost their speciality and whilst still nice to have around they bring nothing unique to the table anymore.

This is the same issue Blue Mage faces. Amongst teams and teams of specialists, a weaker hybrid begs little requirement.
The only way it can work is if it were within a team of hybrids.

Right now the only specialist things a Blue Mage brings to the table are:

1. Weakness procing - This doesn't work too well and suffers from being a token job, arguably neglectable.
2. Weakened DD - Physical spells are not affected by weakened state. This was a strategy for many LS' for fighting Pandemonium Warden at LV75.
3. Multiple stun options - A single BLU can lock a HNM down by rotating 2-3
Different stun spells if they don't build resistance (which they virtually all do).

That's it. Unless I missed something.

Now unfortunately there are many jobs in this position. DNC, DRK, DRG, PUP, BST, COR and THF all suffer from lack of speciality.

For Blue Mage, one recommendation I'd have is to change the weakness procing system in voidwatch/dynamis so that all spells have a CHANCE of procing if the same element, rather than being one specifically of that element. That way you could set 1-2 spells of every element and keep trying them again and again for a proc, rather than having to unset and reset spells and suffer he 1 min cooldown.

The problem with this though is that it would still be a token job and once at one person has filled that spot mo others are needed.

[Nightfyre]

I'm hoping for an enhancement to our discernment abilities down the line that will tell us what magic type (elemental, enfeebling, dark, ninjutsu, singing, blue) a magic weakness is. It doesn't completely solve the issue, but we'd need to set/cast fewer weakness spells and do so less frequently.

I can't speak for Dreamlands Dynamis procs, haven't been in there yet, but unless they've drastically reworked the system for the new zones then Dynamis procs are already as you've suggested. There's a set chance per action to trigger a weakness. The chance varies by action type though, JAs > WS > magic iirc.

[Tashan]

...I KNEW I WASN'T INSANE.

[Scuro]

It's a better DD mage than all the others, but it's still a Hybrid so... inferior to the actual jobs.
We are the better DD mage, solely for the fact that we are the DD mage. The only one that would be arguably close is SMN because in some occasions they choose to melee next to their avatars (rarely anymore now).

This job can be set at a level that can contend with a WAR, SAM, DRG with out tipping it over. That isn't a stretch of the imagination. While before I argued that BLU's weakness in HNMs honestly didn't mean much because most gear from HNMs were not very desirable by BLU's, yet now that has changed and my attention is brought back to this issue. The content is changing, and we can't stay in Abyssea forever (or hell this game will just fall apart), and as it stands, unless BLU has some proc'n niche or again something only it can do, it will fall to the way side with out a doubt. Atmas and Cruor Buffs can only go so far.

[Defiledsickness]

well you can count dnc as a blu rival or nin. dnc has better survivability, nin has better tanking, and blu is the better DD. imo of course. thf really is just TH now, rng still is good at... ranged. and cor/sam/drg/blm etc are great damage (with almost no healing). so i mean, pros and cons to everything.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Did... did you just call blu a better DD than NIN? Am I reading that right?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

We are the better DD mage, solely for the fact that we are the DD mage. The only one that would be arguably close is SMN because in some occasions they choose to melee next to their avatars (rarely anymore now).

This job can be set at a level that can contend with a WAR, SAM, DRG with out tipping it over. That isn't a stretch of the imagination. While before I argued that BLU's weakness in HNMs honestly didn't mean much because most gear from HNMs were not very desirable by BLU's, yet now that has changed and my attention is brought back to this issue. The content is changing, and we can't stay in Abyssea forever (or hell this game will just fall apart), and as it stands, unless BLU has some proc'n niche or again something only it can do, it will fall to the way side with out a doubt. Atmas and Cruor Buffs can only go so far.

Two things..

1. No BLU "MAGE" should never compete with a DD who's only ability is to DD, improving BLU anymore in melee would do exactly that.

2. LOL SUMMONER!?! are you serious!!!! (PS. Summoner isn't a Mage)

[Afania]

Did... did you just call blu a better DD than NIN? Am I reading that right?

If you're in Heroes zone and DD on a higher lv NM, most likely NIN is a better DD than BLU, since they attack way faster and has higher DPS, and blue magic spell dmg sucked on them.

If you're doing old lv 75 content like Einherjar/Nyzul/Salvage etc, it's hard for a NIN to out DD BLU when blue magic spell rape stuff in those areas, and new Azure lord 2hr update murders Nyzul Floor boss/Salvage chariot etc.

They're pretty much on the same lv IMO, in different situation it may be stronger than another.

[Afania]

While I have always said this class should never overshadow another class, this class is the TRUE DD MAGE. Its I'm willing to bet that 85% of the BLU community AT LEAST is a DD, therefore we should be on par with other DDs. Right now we have a nice spot light because we can do things that only our job can do, but if that were to change, if new content were introduced or made extremely relevant, many of us would be back to where we were. Solo'n in campaign and imps in the mire. I believe that is what these people are trying to get at, that we can shred fodder mobs like they are nothing, but when it comes to the big kahunas, we got nothing. The spells of HNMs in the days were breaths and cannonball SATACA, and even that was sheer garbage in comparison to other DDs.



How's SATA cannonball "Sheer garbage" in comparision to other DDs in the old days, when it's ranged + can transfer enmity. Other DD is either ranged but generates tones of enmity(such as RNG), or can transfer enmity but not ranged(SAM/THF). There are other options like SMN but I don't think it is that good to a point to make cannonball sheer garbage(Avatar still dies from AoE, and it doesn't transfer enmity to the tank).

Do I miss any other good DD option to replace cannonball and makes it garbage on strong NMs with AoE?




For Blue Mage to find a place in newer content it needs to have something which makes it into a specialist. However, at the same time you risk the job becoming over dominant. Or rather, LV75 Red Mage.


Now unfortunately there are many jobs in this position. DNC, DRK, DRG, PUP, BST, COR and THF all suffer from lack of speciality.



When we have 20 jobs I guess it's inevitable that some jobs has to be replaceable. But THF is just fine really, ppl always whined about TH, which is THF's specility. And it will always has it's place unless one day TH isn't important anymore.

Also I thought BST is currently the best dynamis currency solo job and DRG is nice to have(Although I'm not sure replacing a DRG with Ukon WAR may yield better result or not) for Angon when you zerg?


I remember when BLU can trigger 2 yellow proc in Abyssea and an efficent job to farm blue chests, ppl complained about how BLU is needed for abyssea because they don't want to spend extra time to find a BLU. I personally don't want BLU to be "useful" in VW because of proc(proc is really a dumb way to make a job useful....plenty of jobs can duo KI NMs in Abyssea just fine, but we all use NIN because of red proc). SE mentioned they want BLU's role to be "Veritable shape shifters on the battlefield who adjust their tactics to fit the constantly changing nature of a conflict", and that should be BLU's speciality, to be able to get things done when certain roles are needed. It doesn't need to be top DD since you have to be REALLY top DD that beats WAR SAM MNK DRK DRG to be useful as a DD job in this game, and you make BLU top DD, inc more DRK Q.Q

Personally I think BLU is just fine as it is. At lv 75 ppl kept saying it has no use for endgame, I had no problem using it on many event and still contribute, such as VNM fight as a stun whore/cannonball DD(a very nice way to deal dmg on T4 black dragon), no problem to use it in Einherjar T3 since stun spam makes it much easier, and light dispel(only this job and BRD can dispel soulflayers) for Nyzul. Although I admit I don't have a lot of job leveled, so I stuck with BLU most of the time. If I have 20 jobs leveled I probably won't use it as much.

If there's any hybrid job that needs to be fixed, it's SCH DNC COR and maybe DRK....I added "maybe" because I found DRK to be the best job to zombie hold NMs outside of abby :cool:


You complain that your hitting weapon the T4 Sandy VWNM, guys Fudo SAMs are hitting for 400, Ukon WAR's are getting 300~500, and so forth. The only DD that was dealing somewhat decent damage was the JR RNG. That four armed bandit just has ridiculous -PDT/MDT, nothing we hit him with was dealing large amounts of damage.

Wildfire can hit 1~2.3k on it at lv 90, you need magic dmg.
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5522/wf2d.png

No job can be the best DD in every situation.

[Tashan]

How's SATA cannonball "Sheer garbage" in comparision to other DDs in the old days

It's one attack every 1 Minute. It's like having a weapon with 3600 Delay.

RNGs will be shooting arrows in between.

SMNs will be allowing their avatar to be melee or resummon spam.

A BLU could supposedly healing or casting support spells in the meantime, but if you're using a strategy where you're fighting for a Ranged Attack distance noones taking damage. Neither are there any Blue Magic spells which can support efficiently.



Also I thought BST is currently the best dynamis currency solo job and DRG is nice to have(Although I'm not sure replacing a DRG with Ukon WAR may yield better result or not) for Angon when you zerg?

I'd argue Blue Mage is better than BST, but I'm biased.

For Zerg strategies the damage Angon + DRG + Wyvern provides in one slot shouldn't do more than a SAM or a WAR in that same slot. In addition Angon won't stack so where it's important to have, once one person fills that spot none other are required.


I personally don't want BLU to be "useful" in VW because of proc(proc is really a dumb way to make a job useful....

I agree. However, I will argue that having some job demand is better than next to none at all. At LV75, the only job demand a Blue Mage would have is Einherjar, and that was a dying event anyway. It didn't mean you were alienated from other content, but you were replaceable.

In Abyssea the procing system made having a Blue Mage a requirement, and it definently helped me to make progress.

The other alternative would of been having to level a new job that I don't want to play just to get things for my BLU. Doing that though would mean having to work on making that other job as productive as my BLU is.


SE mentioned they want BLU's role to be "Veritable shape shifters on the battlefield who adjust their tactics to fit the constantly changing nature of a conflict", and that should be BLU's speciality, to be able to get things done when certain roles are needed.

I have a challenge for you. And please don't take it as I'm just setting it to prove a point. That's just how I come across sometimes.

I would like you to write full Blue Magic Spell Setups to fulfill the below roles:

1. Healing
2. Enfeebling
3. Enhancing
4. A mix of the above
5. Ranged Attacking

You can choose either LV75 Cap, LV90 or LV95. Then we'll debate and evaluate their effectiveness.


It doesn't need to be top DD since you have to be REALLY top DD that beats WAR SAM MNK DRK DRG to be useful as a DD job in this game, and you make BLU top DD, inc more DRK Q.Q

Yep, agreed.



Personally I think BLU is just fine as it is. At lv 75 ppl kept saying it has no use for endgame, I had no problem using it on many event and still contribute, such as VNM fight as a stun whore/cannonball DD(a very nice way to deal dmg on T4 black dragon), no problem to use it in Einherjar T3 since stun spam makes it much easier, and light dispel(only this job and BRD can dispel soulflayers) for Nyzul. Although I admit I don't have a lot of job leveled, so I stuck with BLU most of the time. If I have 20 jobs leveled I probably won't use it as much.

Totally agree with you. After I quit RDM about 4 years ago, I picked up Blue Mage and have found myself being able to join in almost every activity in this game ever since. I never play any other job but Blue Mage.

I feel this is partly because I am also usually an organiser for any events I participate in and often I will build a party keeping my role options in mind.

However, it's vary rare I let another person in my events play Blue Mage, ironically.

[Afania]

It's one attack every 1 Minute. It's like having a weapon with 3600 Delay.

RNGs will be shooting arrows in between.

SMNs will be allowing their avatar to be melee or resummon spam.

A BLU could supposedly healing or casting support spells in the meantime, but if you're using a strategy where you're fighting for a Ranged Attack distance noones taking damage. Neither are there any Blue Magic spells which can support efficiently.


At lv 75 if you used a PLD tank, their enmity generating ability was no where near as good as a well geared RNG(there were no CDC at that time for PLDs, they had even less enmity generating tool). There's no way RNG can go all out and do dmg without taking the risk of screwing up the pt formation. They need to hold back, and there's still the risk after they WS.

SMN is decent though, although I'm not sure in the process of resummon and such will lower too much dmg output or not.

BLU cannonball spam may not be irreplaceable when there's other option like SMN and RNG, but it's still not "sheer garbage" level since it has it's own advantage compare with RNG.




I agree. However, I will argue that having some job demand is better than next to none at all. At LV75, the only job demand a Blue Mage would have is Einherjar, and that was a dying event anyway. It didn't mean you were alienated from other content, but you were replaceable.

In Abyssea the procing system made having a Blue Mage a requirement, and it definently helped me to make progress.



And Abyssea also created a lot of bandwagon BLUs that doesn't enjoy play the job and just lv it for yellow proc, and never bother to get any spells/gears besides proc spells because they just lv BLU as a proc whore. I'm not looking down on ppl who lv the job as a proc whore and gimping it, I can understand where it's come from since I have a lv 75 THF with no gear except TH hands and knife because I need TH sometimes.

Plus ppl complained when they can't find a BLU for AF3 pt.

Having a job as a requirement because of proc is making this game less fun than it should be. Ppl who doesn't enjoy playing BLU is forced to play it for proc, while making others that spent the time on the job feel sad to see others gimping it for the sake of efficency. Ppl who just want to get shit done is forced to find specific job for proc, which can be a bit painful sometimes. Of course we all want our main job to be needed for everything, but sometimes it just created more pain.

Seriously, why do I need to lv NIN to solo/duo empy trials(that's my friend's suggestion when I told him I want to make an Almace....he told me to go lv NIN) when it's soloable/duoable on BLU ._.


Proc, stupid proc :(:(:(


I have a challenge for you. And please don't take it as I'm just setting it to prove a point. That's just how I come across sometimes.

I would like you to write full Blue Magic Spell Setups to fulfill the below roles:

1. Healing
2. Enfeebling
3. Enhancing
4. A mix of the above
5. Ranged Attacking





Hmmm do you mean what spell to set for specific role? Tbh it really depends on the situation, but I'll try to do the list regardless.

I'll do lv 90 since I haven't play FFXI since 95 update.

1. Plenilune Embrace+magic fruit+winds of promy? Some +MND stat spells are good although it's not really needed IMO, would rather set usual DD/stun/sleep spells to keep some form of versatility when situation changes.

2.Sub-zero smash(para)/Filamented hold(slow)/Actinic Burst(flash)/headbutt(stun)/dream flower or sheep song(sleep)/blank gaze or geist wall(dispel)/Disseverment(Poison)/Aureral drape(blind and silence)/benthnc typhoon(def/mdef down)/Magnetite Cloud(gravity)/Regurgitation(bind)/Demoralizing Roar(attack down)/Infrasonics(eva down)

Depending on the mob may remove some if it doesn't land or not needed on the target.

3. I don't consider BLU to be enhancing job at all with long recast time of Diffusion. I guess AoE refresh in Salvage if healer is a WHM? Or AoE attack buff before zerg? Or diamondhide which isn't that effective and would rather accession SS......

4. Would probably keep magic fruit/P.embrace/winds of promy/Sub-zero smash/Filamented hold/Actinic Burst/benthnc typhoon/disseverment at least, other debuff depends on what benefits the situation the most I guess.

5. That I'm totally not sure, I haven't play BLU to deal ranged dmg only for very long time since I have an empy COR if I need ranged dmg, and most of the time ranged dmg are not really really needed nowadays(even in VWNM I just run in and efflux QC and run away)

I guess Cannonball+ powerful nuke spells like everyone's Grudge or dark orb at lv 95, and rest of the spells being +STR? Although setting both physical ranged spells and nuke spells at once will lower the dmg, but still better than just sit there and wait for recast time.

My question is if ranged dmg is really really needed nowadays though?

[Scuro]

Two things..

1. No BLU "MAGE" should never compete with a DD who's only ability is to DD, improving BLU anymore in melee would do exactly that.

2. LOL SUMMONER!?! are you serious!!!! (PS. Summoner isn't a Mage)

Yes Summoner's used to DD with their pets with their staves, and in some cases that was fantastic, in others, not so much. Thats why you have to pick your battles. (P.S, the job uses MP, thats mage enough for me, even the abilities cost MP, so quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and flys like a duck, its probably a duck).


How's SATA cannonball "Sheer garbage" in comparision to other DDs in the old days, when it's ranged + can transfer enmity. Other DD is either ranged but generates tones of enmity(such as RNG), or can transfer enmity but not ranged(SAM/THF). There are other options like SMN but I don't think it is that good to a point to make cannonball sheer garbage(Avatar still dies from AoE, and it doesn't transfer enmity to the tank).

Do I miss any other good DD option to replace cannonball and makes it garbage on strong NMs with AoE?

Alright to be fair, and since I was that shmuck using Cannonball back in the day for NMs, I may have exagerated in saying it was sheer garbage, I will correct myself in saying its a dim light bulb, for the reasons that Tashan has stated. Cannonball in prespective really wasn't fantastic, did it help? Sure but so does a Poison DoT (again not the exact comparison of DoT, but you get the general idea that anything helps but doesn't make it worth while).

[Afania]

I agree. However, I will argue that having some job demand is better than next to none at all. At LV75, the only job demand a Blue Mage would have is Einherjar, and that was a dying event anyway. It didn't mean you were alienated from other content, but you were replaceable.

In Abyssea the procing system made having a Blue Mage a requirement, and it definently helped me to make progress.



Tbh I still don't think "replaceable" is that much of a big deal. On the other hand irreplaceable isn't always better. There used to be so many player leveled BRD at lv 75 so they can join merit pt or EG event, and ended up stuck with BRD forever and not allowed to play other jobs, and complained etc.

You used Einherjar as an example, I'll just use it to explain. Having a BLU for T3 used to be very good because of stun at lv 75, and it will make T3 much easier. But if you can't find a BLU(or if LS BLU doesn't feel like wanting to play BLU that day), that's just fine. Replace the BLU with another DD or healer. You lost stun, but you get more dmg or healing, in the end the difference isn't that big, you lost some advantage, you gain other advantage. It may not be the most optimal result, but it's at least 75%~85% as effective as optimal setup. This applies to all contents that doesn't involve proc besides zerging to use BLU. It's not irreplaceable for most optimal pt setup for most of the situation, but it's at least 75% as effective as specialists and BLU has some advantage other jobs doesn't have. That's already enough to get you into the pt if you don't have other jobs leveled.

But if you added proc, then the difference gets a LOT bigger. If you're not factoring proc, soloing KI NM on NIN is probably only 10~15% more efficient than BLU due to faster killing speed. If you're factoring red proc, soloing KI NM on NIN will be 3x more efficient than BLU in terms of time and money spent on pops. And that's just not acceptable. I can accept spending 10% more time on farming KI on BLU, but not 66% because of lack of WS. And that's what happen when this game rely on proc to make a job "special" and "useful".

I do admit that zerging high lv NM is one aspect that BLU is absolutely shit and no where close to optimal result though. The only advantage it has but other DD doesn't have is just def down spell and AoE attack buff. And it's really hard to contribute in zerging situation. In that case I'd say nerfing heavy strike is really a bad decision. BLU doesn't need to deal as much dmg as 2h DD during zerging, but at least it should be able to contribute decent amount of dmg while having advantages other DDs doesn't have such as def down/aoe attack up spell, to make it replaceable but still able to contribute in it's own way. The point of of heavy strike is not to replace WAR DRK SAM for zerging, but if you want to play BLU or only have BLU, you can still contribute and able to get something done that WAR DRK SAM can't. Just like previous arguement about DRG v.s WAR, DRG is just fine for def down, but you don't need it and you can replace it with another Ukon WAR with more dmg. But if someone only has DRG or just want to play DRG, he can still contribute in a way WAR can't.

Lack of red/blue proc is also a difference you can't make up no matter what, and I really don't want another event that only certain jobs are allowed to play because they make a huge difference in terms of efficiency. Making a job useful because of proc really just make the game no fun at all tbh.



Alright to be fair, and since I was that shmuck using Cannonball back in the day for NMs, I may have exagerated in saying it was sheer garbage, I will correct myself in saying its a dim light bulb, for the reasons that Tashan has stated. Cannonball in prespective really wasn't fantastic, did it help? Sure but so does a Poison DoT (again not the exact comparison of DoT, but you get the general idea that anything helps but doesn't make it worth while).

If you're looking for a game changing spell/ability for this job, I'd say at least 80% of the job on the job list offers nothing game changing and fantastic, those job that has fantasitic ability often being forced to play it and don't have other choice, while some others lv it just for efficiency. It is not just this job, it's a problem many other job has.

When RDM was useful for everything, RDMs Q.Q about being forced to play as RDM healer and not allowed to play anything else. Now RDMs Q.Q about not having Cure V, which is just ironic. Trust me, if SE give BLU something omgwtf fantasitic irreplaceable and game changing, inc more Q.Q.

[Tashan]

At lv 75 if you used a PLD tank, their enmity generating ability was no where near as good as a well geared RNG(there were no CDC at that time for PLDs, they had even less enmity generating tool). There's no way RNG can go all out and do dmg without taking the risk of screwing up the pt formation. They need to hold back, and there's still the risk after they WS.

SMN is decent though, although I'm not sure in the process of resummon and such will lower too much dmg output or not.


In regards to PLD's emnity you address that with TA Emnity management, but yeah RNGs did have to watch themselves a little.

As for SMNs, in all honesty I know nothing about how SMN works. All I know is I have seen many a HNM been Garuda Predator Claws spammed to death.


And Abyssea also created a lot of bandwagon BLUs that doesn't enjoy play the job and just lv it for yellow proc, and never bother to get any spells/gears besides proc spells because they just lv BLU as a proc whore.

Anything popular will have a bandwagon following it. I was on the LV75 RDM bandwagon, people rode the LV75 SAM train and right now NIN is a bus in rush hour.


Having a job as a requirement because of proc is making this game less fun than it should be. Ppl who doesn't enjoy playing BLU is forced to play it for proc, while making others that spent the time on the job feel sad to see others gimping it for the sake of efficency. Ppl who just want to get shit done is forced to find specific job for proc, which can be a bit painful sometimes. Of course we all want our main job to be needed for everything, but sometimes it just created more pain.

There will always be some level of required job in this game, whether it's imposed by us or SE. At LV75 any strategy which involved a BLM could not be done by anything else. If you want to merit effectively, you'd need either a BRD or COR setup, a TP melee and a Healer, preferably RDM or WHM/SCH.

The procing system at the very least expanded upon our chosen requirements by creating roles in addition to Tanking, Damage Dealing, Support and Healing.


Seriously, why do I need to lv NIN to solo/duo empy trials(that's my friend's suggestion when I told him I want to make an Almace....he told me to go lv NIN) when it's soloable/duoable on BLU ._.

Don't do it. I've done up to my LV85 weapon so far by having other people play NIN. It's tricky and subjob dependant, but a BLU can proc the following Red Weakness:

Red Lotus Blade, Seraph Blade, Seraph Strike, Sunburst, Earth Crusher, Cyclone, Raiden Thrust.

It's not enough to replace the 2 Slot NIN + WAR combo, but it gets a lot done.

[Tashan]

1. Plenilune Embrace+magic fruit+winds of promy? Some +MND stat spells are good although it's not really needed IMO, would rather set usual DD/stun/sleep spells to keep some form of versatility when situation changes.

2.Sub-zero smash(para)/Filamented hold(slow)/Actinic Burst(flash)/headbutt(stun)/dream flower or sheep song(sleep)/blank gaze or geist wall(dispel)/Disseverment(Poison)/Aureral drape(blind and silence)/benthnc typhoon(def/mdef down)/Magnetite Cloud(gravity)/Regurgitation(bind)/Demoralizing Roar(attack down)/Infrasonics(eva down)

Depending on the mob may remove some if it doesn't land or not needed on the target.

3. I don't consider BLU to be enhancing job at all with long recast time of Diffusion. I guess AoE refresh in Salvage if healer is a WHM? Or AoE attack buff before zerg? Or diamondhide which isn't that effective and would rather accession SS......

4. Would probably keep magic fruit/P.embrace/winds of promy/Sub-zero smash/Filamented hold/Actinic Burst/benthnc typhoon/disseverment at least, other debuff depends on what benefits the situation the most I guess.

5. That I'm totally not sure, I haven't play BLU to deal ranged dmg only for very long time since I have an empy COR if I need ranged dmg, and most of the time ranged dmg are not really really needed nowadays(even in VWNM I just run in and efflux QC and run away)

Where noteworthy, can you evaluate your view on a Blue Mage fulfilling on those roles with the tools you've suggested at hand?

1. Healing - MP Efficient Cure 4.5 and Cure 5.5 Spells, coupled with an AoE Erase. In my opinion this put's BLU in the same bracket as DNC-Like support healing, and not enough for a BLU to fulfill that role effectively.

It get's better with a WHM support job, and -na spells. With /WHM this setup can easily allow a Blue Mage to effectively main heal most parties. For an alliance, more healers will be required for the other parties.

2. Enfeebling - A solid set of options. The issue here is whether the enfeebles will be required or outranked by NIN and RDM.

4. Hybrid - True it is quite situational.

5. Ranged - Sorry when I said Ranged Attack, I also meant to include nuking. Basically fighting from a distance.



My question is if ranged dmg is really really needed nowadays though?

In situations where you want noone in range of a HNM, yes.

[Tashan]

Tbh I still don't think "replaceable" is that much of a big deal. On the other hand irreplaceable isn't always better. There used to be so many player leveled BRD at lv 75 so they can join merit pt or EG event, and ended up stuck with BRD forever and not allowed to play other jobs, and complained etc.

True.


You used Einherjar as an example, I'll just use it to explain. Having a BLU for T3 used to be very good because of stun at lv 75, and it will make T3 much easier. But if you can't find a BLU(or if LS BLU doesn't feel like wanting to play BLU that day), that's just fine. Replace the BLU with another DD or healer. You lost stun, but you get more dmg or healing, in the end the difference isn't that big, you lost some advantage, you gain other advantage. It may not be the most optimal result, but it's at least 75%~85% as effective as optimal setup. This applies to all contents that doesn't involve proc besides zerging to use BLU. It's not irreplaceable for most optimal pt setup for most of the situation, but it's at least 75% as effective as specialists and BLU has some advantage other jobs doesn't have. That's already enough to get you into the pt if you don't have other jobs leveled.


Fair enough.


But if you added proc, then the difference gets a LOT bigger. If you're not factoring proc, soloing KI NM on NIN is probably only 10~15% more efficient than BLU due to faster killing speed. If you're factoring red proc, soloing KI NM on NIN will be 3x more efficient than BLU in terms of time and money spent on pops. And that's just not acceptable. I can accept spending 10% more time on farming KI on BLU, but not 66% because of lack of WS. And that's what happen when this game rely on proc to make a job "special" and "useful".

You're talking about soloing though. A solo NIN is still not more effective than a party.



I do admit that zerging high lv NM is one aspect that BLU is absolutely shit and no where close to optimal result though. The only advantage it has but other DD doesn't have is just def down spell and AoE attack buff. And it's really hard to contribute in zerging situation. In that case I'd say nerfing heavy strike is really a bad decision. BLU doesn't need to deal as much dmg as 2h DD during zerging, but at least it should be able to contribute decent amount of dmg while having advantages other DDs doesn't have such as def down/aoe attack up spell, to make it replaceable but still able to contribute in it's own way. The point of of heavy strike is not to replace WAR DRK SAM for zerging, but if you want to play BLU or only have BLU, you can still contribute and able to get something done that WAR DRK SAM can't. Just like previous arguement about DRG v.s WAR, DRG is just fine for def down, but you don't need it and you can replace it with another Ukon WAR with more dmg. But if someone only has DRG or just want to play DRG, he can still contribute in a way WAR can't.

Agreed.


Lack of red/blue proc is also a difference you can't make up no matter what, and I really don't want another event that only certain jobs are allowed to play because they make a huge difference in terms of efficiency. Making a job useful because of proc really just make the game no fun at all tbh.

True.


When RDM was useful for everything, RDMs Q.Q about being forced to play as RDM healer and not allowed to play anything else. Now RDMs Q.Q about not having Cure V, which is just ironic. Trust me, if SE give BLU something omgwtf fantasitic irreplaceable and game changing, inc more Q.Q.

lolrdm.

[Afania]

Where noteworthy, can you evaluate your view on a Blue Mage fulfilling on those roles with the tools you've suggested at hand?

1. Healing - MP Efficient Cure 4.5 and Cure 5.5 Spells, coupled with an AoE Erase. In my opinion this put's BLU in the same bracket as DNC-Like support healing, and not enough for a BLU to fulfill that role effectively.

It get's better with a WHM support job, and -na spells. With /WHM this setup can easily allow a Blue Mage to effectively main heal most parties. For an alliance, more healers will be required for the other parties.

2. Enfeebling - A solid set of options. The issue here is whether the enfeebles will be required or outranked by NIN and RDM.

4. Hybrid - True it is quite situational.

5. Ranged - Sorry when I said Ranged Attack, I also meant to include nuking. Basically fighting from a distance.



In situations where you want noone in range of a HNM, yes.

Healer:IMO it can't replace WHM for anything serious. BLU cure spell generates too much enmity, I probably won't replace a WHM with a BLU for heroes T2 NM at lv 90 to cure spam MNK tank in duoing situations because of enmity. I also won't replace a WHM with a BLU for voidwatch. But BLU as healer works decently for easier content when you need some heal, and some dmg may help it get done faster. For example I sometimes trio Salvage (at lv 90)and I play BLU/WHM as a healer because I don't have RDM or WHM, and need other ppl on THF and DD. I can still keep ppl alive no problem, but when situation need fast dmg to zerg an NM down(such as BLM rat in AR), I can spell spam and zerg with everyone else, that's something WHM RDM can't do, BLU can also AoE sleep without relying on SJ, and it can be useful. Also I sometimes duo some easy Abyssea NM such as Audumbla with another BLU friend of mine, with COR/SAM+BLU/WHM setup. I zerg the NM down with Wildfire spam while he keeping me alive on BLU. He can deal dmg and B.typhoon for magic def down (it makes very noticeable difference on Wildfire dmg) on that NM and still able to keep me alive no problem. In the end I'd rather use BLU as a healer rather than WHM or RDM for this NM, since a BLU is enough to keep me alive, and it has ability to do magic def down debuff and do dmg on the same time for faster kills.

Enfeebling:
I rarely invite a debuffer in pt just for debuff. Since many jobs that cover other pt position can do it.
WHM NIN BLM DRK is not created to be debuff expert, but they also has debuff spells that can be useful in pt. While RDM isn't useful just because of debuff, refreshII and cure IV counts too, it is that other aspect of the job that add up together.
Personally I'd use RDM for most of the debuff, slow/para/bind/gravity/bio etc. But BLU still has some unique debuff no? Attack eva magic def down etc. I agree that most of the time you probably won't invite a BLU just for those unique debuff and not really needed, it's probably other advantage BLU has and combine with unique debuff to contribute to the pt.

Hybrid: See above. The above example is more like hybrid than one single role.

Ranged: Nuke dmg is no where near as good as BLM. Cannonball has it's unique advantage of enmity, but probably not as important nowadays since PLD has more hate tool now. Personally I wouldn't invite a BLU if I want ranged dmg, unless I can't get anyone else. However nowadays there are rarely, really rarely any NM that you can't get in the range at all. For most of the NM with AoE run in efflux QC do dmg back off is just fine. BLU can take hit with higher surviveability than other DD if you're well prepared, and it can self cure when taking hit and got out of AoE. Unless the NM has something as bad as AoE instant death or AoE charm, get into AoE isn't that bad.

Of course I admit I probably won't invite a BLU over SMN BLM RNG COR SCH for such situation no matter what, unless I got no one else. But BLU still has higher ranged dmg ability than MNK WAR etc.

Still, BLU has above average in terms of usefulness for every single situation besides zerging higher lv NM(Only zerging high lv NM is way below average). While specialists may be perfect for one situation, but below average usefulness for another. The reason why many ppl think BLU useless is because players got way too many jobs nowaday when you lv them so fast, gear them so fast. Otherwise BLU is just fine in terms of usefulness. If you want to look at other Q.Q jobs, look at DNC SCH DRK and RDM, they are in worse position than BLU(Although I'd still use RDM outside of Abby for refreshII). Personally I also Q.Q a lot about COR being useless for everything besides regain whore in Voidwatch as well. But BLU I'm happy with it, as long as I can get shit done with this job when I need to.

If there's anything that need improvement, it really just need a little boost for zerging high lv NMs. Then it'd be perfect.

[Prothscar]

Of course I admit I probably won't invite a BLU over SMN BLM RNG COR SCH for such situation no matter what, unless I got no one else. But BLU still has higher ranged dmg ability than MNK WAR etc.

Sorry to interject, but weren't you just talking about problems with enmity for BLU vs. WHM healing? We have the exact opposite issue with ranged damage. Sure you can only SATACA a cannonball every minute, but you can also use Regurgitation for an essentially free 500-600 damage which supplies 1CE 640VE no matter how much damage you do. You'll essentially never have to meter yourself in terms of MP or enmity, a large advantage over any of the other jobs above. Will you do as much damage in a short burst? No. But over time you could be comparable while still sustaining other types of damage or other roles if necessary.

[Tashan]

Still, BLU has above average in terms of usefulness for every single situation besides zerging higher lv NM(Only zerging high lv NM is way below average). While specialists may be perfect for one situation, but below average usefulness for another. The reason why many ppl think BLU useless is because players got way too many jobs nowaday when you lv them so fast, gear them so fast. Otherwise BLU is just fine in terms of usefulness. If you want to look at other Q.Q jobs, look at DNC SCH DRK and RDM, they are in worse position than BLU(Although I'd still use RDM outside of Abby for refreshII). Personally I also Q.Q a lot about COR being useless for everything besides regain whore in Voidwatch as well. But BLU I'm happy with it, as long as I can get shit done with this job when I need to.

If there's anything that need improvement, it really just need a little boost for zerging high lv NMs. Then it'd be perfect.

You've pretty much answered it but my final question is, "Do you feel that with the tools a BLU has to satisfy different roles it is well-developed as a hybrid?"

Sorry to interject, but weren't you just talking about problems with enmity for BLU vs. WHM healing? We have the exact opposite issue with ranged damage. Sure you can only SATACA a cannonball every minute, but you can also use Regurgitation for an essentially free 500-600 damage which supplies 1CE 640VE no matter how much damage you do. You'll essentially never have to meter yourself in terms of MP or enmity, a large advantage over any of the other jobs above. Will you do as much damage in a short burst? No. But over time you could be comparable while still sustaining other types of damage or other roles if necessary.

In her defense she's not really suggesting that emnity control is the reason for choosing a job, but just that's a disadvantage it has in comparison to WHM.

[Darkvalkyr]

I dunno. With my tanks I can just throw magic fruit like no tomorrow without getting hate. Maybe I just wear enough enmity- gear? *shrug*

On top of that, if I do ever get hate BLU has enough survivability to last longer than most mages anyway.

[Tashan]

DV you are so win for giving props to Camate like that.

Nice one.

[Afania]

You've pretty much answered it but my final question is, "Do you feel that with the tools a BLU has to satisfy different roles it is well-developed as a hybrid?"




I think the crowd control tool worked pretty well, unique debuff is ok too(but not needed most of the time). Everything else I'd say no XD.

Especially the fact that BLU cure can't cure alliance members killed it's use as a real healer.

[Darkvalkyr]

I got quoted by Camate. #Achievementunlocked.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I love Google Translate.


Blue Magic will be introduced for
I love the planting, hello. I look now and then that, hey are many strong tricks Yappari. Currently, we do not consider the introduction of special techniques for knowledge of the following notorious comments was raised from.



Absolute Terror
Gates of Hades
Rick cable network pie

Breeze Spring / Summer Breeze / Breeze Autumn / Winter Breeze is a family of Pixie was considered too strong for even one skill, I think ... and difficult to achieve. Related to the quest-like missions and also battlefield, where there is no learning on their right to challenge, because if you do not have a clear plan, "halo sword," I'm sorry to say that such is the feeling completely. This area and I hope you understand.

What the hell is: Rick cable network pie. :)

[Bayohne]

Hey blues! Got some tidbits for you about upcoming spells that we're currently looking into adding while under the effects of Unbridled Learning:

Absolute Terror
Gates of Hades
Pyric Bulwark

We'd consider the Pixie special abilities Spring Breeze, Summer Breeze, Autumn Breeze, and Winter Breeze, but they are too powerful, so they are pretty unlikely to be implemented.

We don't have any plans to allow spell Learning in areas that are related to missions and quests that players cannot repeat, so I’m sorry to say that Light Blade will not be added.

[Darkvalkyr]

YESSSSS.

Absolute Terror sounds like...it won't get much use.
Gates of Hades is BRILLIANT. I get to use it for the win, now.
Pyric Bulwark is VERY surprising. I'm sure it gets nerfed for -DT% effect instead of downright immunity.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

YESSSSS.

Absolute Terror sounds like...it won't get much use.
Gates of Hades is BRILLIANT. I get to use it for the win, now.
Pyric Bulwark is VERY surprising. I'm sure it gets nerfed for -DT% effect instead of downright immunity.

More like a Stoneskin effect knowing SE.

[Septimus]

Hey blues! Got some tidbits for you about upcoming spells that we're currently looking into adding while under the effects of Unbridled Learning:


Absolute Terror
Gates of Hades
Pyric Bulwark


We'd consider the Pixie special abilities Spring Breeze, Summer Breeze, Autumn Breeze, and Winter Breeze, but they are too powerful, so they are pretty unlikely to be implemented.

We don't have any plans to allow spell Learning in areas that are related to missions and quests that players cannot repeat, so I’m sorry to say that Light Blade will not be added.

Please don't make us kill pixies, Pixies cure people and are nice. Won't somebody please think of the Pixies?! (Yeah, I know there are mean pixies like in VWNM and Abyssea, but you know that lazy people would kill all of the helpful pixies because they would be easy to kill.)

And we could always have the option to redo mission fights so that we could learn things like Light Blade. Or just for the fun of it. ;)

[Economizer]

And we could always have the option to redo mission fights so that we could learn things like Light Blade. Or just for the fun of it. ;)

Easy to implement repeatable missions. Memory Orb. Could either be sold from a Goblin who actually explains it (like the cutscene Goblin if you trade Beastmen Seals instead of other items), or Shami.

The Memory Orb has to be brought to the relevant location. When it opens, it doesn't call forth a monster, but instead your memories of a fight.

This would fit the lore and be easy enough to implement.

[xbobx]

fyi incase you haven't realize they will be all on that 5 minute timer guaranteed.

[Prothscar]

Absolute Terror seems kinda silly. Spike Flail to give us a physical damage spell for Unbridled Learning or Dragon Breath to give us a much needed new breath spell would have been much more appropriate in my opinion. I can't imagine Absolute Terror will land on anything.

[Economizer]

I can't imagine Absolute Terror will land on anything.

Actually, on a five minute timer, I'd imagine it would land on things (whereas it wouldn't otherwise).

I just wouldn't expect it to last very long. Basically, it will probably be a glorified Stun.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

fyi incase you haven't realize they will be all on that 5 minute timer guaranteed.

Yes, they're under Unbridled Learning we know that already.

[Prothscar]

Actually, on a five minute timer, I'd imagine it would land on things (whereas it wouldn't otherwise).

I just wouldn't expect it to last very long. Basically, it will probably be a glorified Stun.

Bet it'll have a stupid long casting time to make up for it if it does happen to land on anything. The 5 minute timer doesn't mean a whole lot.

[Erics]

I am very interested in these spells. Spike flail or dragon breath would've been cool. Oh well. I am still excited for this.

[Arcon]

I can see Gates of Hades becoming the new Charged Whisker.

[Mightyg]

Still wanting a nice strong physical attack. honestly would rather not be spike flail because animation is not that great, but I do want something for high physical damage.

On a side note regarding Pyric Bulwark, This is a very powerful ability full of win and overpowerednessess. I suggest it be balanced by giving it a 5 second cast time and a 5 second duration. ;)

[Prothscar]

Still wanting a nice strong physical attack. honestly would rather not be spike flail because animation is not that great, but I do want something for high physical damage.

On a side note regarding Pyric Bulwark, This is a very powerful ability full of win and overpowerednessess. I suggest it be balanced by giving it a 5 second cast time and a 5 second duration. ;)

So you want them to make it useless. Yes.


I would much prefer a Scherzo/Earthern Armor effect with a decently high duration that stacks with those two effects.

[Atoreis]

I can see Gates of Hades becoming the new Charged Whisker.

Thunderbolt is new Charged :)

Damage is a little lower but stun that comes with it let you cast it w/o recasting and debuffs/buffs after dream flower and just finish with whirl of rage. It's just faster. Can also just do thunderbolt > charged ^^

[xbobx]

I can see Gates of Hades becoming the new Charged Whisker.

never did a charge whisker burn before, but would that work on a 5 minute timer?

[Quetzacoatl]

Gates of Hades, Absolute Terror and Pyric Bulwark?!

...I...I need to go do my laundry after I finish this post. This is awesome, yet I'm not surprised we didn't get Spike Flail. I wonder what we would be getting from Khimaira.


never did a charge whisker burn before, but would that work on a 5 minute timer?

Not really, the recast on Unbridled Knowledge is too long for the usual Charged Whisker burn.

[Tashan]

I think I'm the only one not excited at all.

Edit: I liked Rick Cable Network Pie better.

[Arcon]

never did a charge whisker burn before, but would that work on a 5 minute timer?

It could, technically. Usually I guess it's about 3~4min. Would be a more relaxed burn I guess.

However, I just meant a quick and easy way to get rid of a whole lot of mobs, not just to "burn" for chests or anything like that. Seeing how even Charged Whisker was able to one-shot certain groups of mobs with the right buffs/gear, and I think (or hope) that an ability learned from a creature such as Cerberus named after the god of the underworld himself does more damage than some kitties charging their whiskers. Even just saying it makes me sound stupid.

[Prothscar]

Thunderbolt is new Charged :)

Damage is a little lower but stun that comes with it let you cast it w/o recasting and debuffs/buffs after dream flower and just finish with whirl of rage. It's just faster. Can also just do thunderbolt > charged ^^

Or you could save yourself even the first Dream FLower and one shot the pull with Charged Whisker. Thunderbolt replaces nothing.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Or you could save yourself even the first Dream FLower and one shot the pull with Charged Whisker. Thunderbolt replaces nothing.

Indeed, I've only just started building a CW set, and already I'm doing 4000+ DMG, and I've seen people do upto 7000 DMG.

[Tennotsukai]

Absolute Terror - hope it has a quick cast time and long duration or else it won't be used.

Gates of Hades - I really want this to be our next CW as well or use it for its nice burn effect.

Pyric Bulwark - This is the spell I have my highest hopes for. I would like to see something with a long cast time, long duration (5 min?), and have it prevent a certain number of hits per skill. Course, that's just me dreaming... How about a new stoneskin for just physical dmg that can be combined with Magic Barrier if you wanted. Hmm, but this might just be another useless UL spell we'll learn. I can't wait to hear about more possible blu spells. Keep them coming, Camate!

-edit: Also, wouldn't mind a strong 5 min phalanx

[Demonofhunger]

I think we can just call it now and say that all three new spells are going to be underwhelming if the last update was any indication.

They won't or can't give us anything nearly as good as the HNM moves, so I'm expecting:

Gates of Hades: low-damage fire AOE and 10/tic Burn effect.

Absolute Terror: very low mag-acc Terror with long cast time and a duration of 2 secs on some trash mobs and less on all others.

Pyric Bulwark: Stoneskin that is a little worse than RDM Stoneskin.

[Urteil]

I think we can just call it now and say that all three new spells are going to be underwhelming if the last update was any indication.

They won't or can't give us anything nearly as good as the HNM moves, so I'm expecting:

Gates of Hades: low-damage fire AOE and 10/tic Burn effect.

Absolute Terror: very low mag-acc Terror with long cast time and a duration of 2 secs on some trash mobs and less on all others.

Pyric Bulwark: Stoneskin that is a little worse than RDM Stoneskin.


This is better than what DRK gets, we don't even have a move with Terror in the name.

[Dais]

I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but you guys can keep absolute terror. We already have an underpowered terror spell we never use that dose not share the unbridled learning slot with other effective spells. I would rather see the dev team spend their valuable time making old spells more useful than adding replacements that are also never used. Furthermore Player character terror is little more than a variant stun, which needs to be quickly accessible to be useful, yet wont be with a job ability standing between the urgency of it's use and when you are actually able to cast it -stuns have to be fast.
As far as other spells from wyrms go, I think it will be a let down for a lot of people if it is anything except the mighty and dreaded spike flail we get at 99. People have been dreaming of and joking about that one since 75.
I am also curious: what will make pyric bulwark distinct with harden shell already available and not make one of those two redundant?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Absolute Terror - hope it has a quick cast time and long duration or else it won't be used.

Gates of Hades - I really want this to be our next CW as well or use it for its nice burn effect.

Pyric Bulwark - This is the spell I have my highest hopes for. I would like to see something with a long cast time, long duration (5 min?), and have it prevent a certain number of hits per skill. Course, that's just me dreaming... How about a new stoneskin for just physical dmg that can be combined with Magic Barrier if you wanted. Hmm, but this might just be another useless UL spell we'll learn. I can't wait to hear about more possible blu spells. Keep them coming, Camate!

-edit: Also, wouldn't mind a strong 5 min phalanx

They wont give a spell that lasts the full time of the JA recast, it'd be 3 minutes at most.

Also they gave their version of a Phalanx last update, they wont add another. I'm still calling a ~500dmg Stoneskin.

[Kwate]

Forget the terror effect just give the players what we want "Spike Flail", S. Lunge is enough for me without any gimmicks and consistently lands on any mob with a nice duration. This UL JA is quickly becoming a "joke".

[Tashan]

If it works on high tier NMs, that would be nice.

I know I can't get S-Lunge to work on Apademak.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Forget the terror effect just give the players what we want "Spike Flail", S. Lunge is enough for me without any gimmicks and consistently lands on any mob with a nice duration. This UL JA is quickly becoming a "joke".

I don't want Spike Flail it'd end up being rubbish, I'd rather it stay a pipe-dream.

[Nightfyre]

Enough with the 5 min recast interrupts already. I can already AoE stun weak mobs with one of several spells without burning a 5 minute JA, trying to stun anything of consequence with Thunderbolt or Absolute Terror is largely impractical because anything that needs to be stunned will have already gone off by the time you're halfway through casting the spell, if not by the time you've gotten out of JA lock. Even if you give Terror a decent cast time as opposed to Thunderbolt, you're still looking at an interrupt with a minimum 1.5 second cast time. You could pop Unbridled Learning the moment it comes up, but it only lasts a minute and if you really need the spell that badly what are you going to do for the remaining 4 minutes? I thought Temporal Shift was bad with its 2 minute recast but frankly this is ridiculous.

[Draylo]

There could be something we aren't seeing here as well, the spell itself gives terror but there are no descriptions based on Camates post. What if it had an additional effect like hate reset, similiar to horrid roar. That could be useful haha. (hate reset for the BLU only, obviously)

[THD]

We'd consider the Pixie special abilities Spring Breeze, Summer Breeze, Autumn Breeze, and Winter Breeze, but they are too powerful, so they are pretty unlikely to be implemented.

I'm sorry, but this is a completely unintelligent argument against implementing spells. We all know SE is able and capable of changing spells around to avoid "overpowering" Blue Mages. Take the following scenarios for example:

Example: Exuviation

Player effect: Restores HP and removes one detrimental magic effect.*
Enemy effect: Full Erase. Restores HP based on amount of debuffs it erased from itself.*

Example: Blazing Bound

Player effect: Deals fire damage to an enemy.*
Enemy effect: Deals Area-of-Effect fire damage + Burn.*

*From: http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/

Once again, this excuse is lame and lacks total credibility. If SE does not want to include any Pixie spells, that is their prerogative; just come out and say it. But don't pretend we're idiots with these types of comments.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm sorry, but this is a completely unintelligent argument against implementing spells. We all know SE is able and capable of changing spells around to avoid "overpowering" Blue Mages. Take the following scenarios for example:

Example: Exuviation

Player effect: Restores HP and removes one detrimental magic effect.*
Enemy effect: Full Erase. Restores HP based on amount of debuffs it erased from itself.*

Example: Blazing Bound

Player effect: Deals fire damage to an enemy.*
Enemy effect: Deals Area-of-Effect fire damage + Burn.*

*From: http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/

Once again, this excuse is lame and lacks total credibility. If SE does not want to include any Pixie spells, that is their prerogative; just come out and say it. But don't pretend we're idiots with these types of comments.

Can you blame them, even gimped those spells would be equal to JA'a and way too powerful.

[Zagen]

Can you blame them, even gimped those spells would be equal to JA'a and way too powerful.
Not really, for example:

Spring Breeze - 25% of total TP down + sleep on trash mobs. 10 TP down on NMs if it lands
Summer Breeze - Aoe Erase + self regain at 1tp/tick based on skill say 10 or 20 skill = 1 second.
Autumn Breeze - Self target Cure VI equivalent that doesn't work with Diffusion.
Winter Breeze - Dispel + short Stun on trash mobs. Dispel if it lands on NMs.
Zephyr Arrow - Ranged Damage + Bind on trash. Ranged Damage on NMs.
Lethe Arrows - Same as Zehpyr, with chance of Amnesia on trash mobs.
Cyclonic Turmoil - Damage similar to Leaf Storm + Dispel 1 buff.

There the pixie abilities have been nerfed to non over powered state. THD is right their excuse is BS, there's no reason to make up stupid excuses that hold no water just say no.

[Babekeke]

If a spell is overpowered, it should just have a big mp cost and cost 10+ blue magic spell points to set. That way it becomes 'emergency only', and if you set spells to prepare for that emergency, you have to lose out on several other spells to accomodate it.

That's how BLU works!

[Prothscar]

If a spell is overpowered, it should just have a big mp cost and cost 10+ blue magic spell points to set. That way it becomes 'emergency only', and if you set spells to prepare for that emergency, you have to lose out on several other spells to accomodate it.

That's how BLU works!

No. No this is not how BLU works.

[Darkvalkyr]

She's kiddin around, take it with a light heart and go have a hearty laugh.

[Babekeke]

No. No this is not how BLU works.

The more overpowering a spell is, the harder is should be to accomodate. The 4-5 point spells tend to be thus, so if you want to set them, you can't set as many.
1000 needles was *supposed* to be way overpowering for it's level (unfortunately the broken accuracy made this not so) so it was 5 points to set and 350mp.

Hence, that's how BLU works.

[Zagen]

The more overpowering a spell is, the harder is should be to accomodate. The 4-5 point spells tend to be thus, so if you want to set them, you can't set as many.
1000 needles was *supposed* to be way overpowering for it's level (unfortunately the broken accuracy made this not so) so it was 5 points to set and 350mp.

Hence, that's how BLU works.
Regurgitation says what? Not to mention a ton of other spells we get. So no that's not how BLU works.

[Prothscar]

The more overpowering a spell is, the harder is should be to accomodate. The 4-5 point spells tend to be thus, so if you want to set them, you can't set as many.
1000 needles was *supposed* to be way overpowering for it's level (unfortunately the broken accuracy made this not so) so it was 5 points to set and 350mp.

Hence, that's how BLU works.


First off, 5 set points is not even close to an analog of 10. For its level and any level after it, 1000 Needles has always been complete trash between dealing only 1,000 damage, costing 350 MP and taking 12 seconds to cast; the later nerf to ACC was just an insult. It's the Dev Team's inability to balance and make spells somewhat useful that has led to 90%+ of our spell list being completely useless.

Anyways, tangent aside, no this isn't how BLU works. Having a spell cost 10 set points and cost 350+ MP doesn't fix the spell, it breaks it. There are plenty of ways to balance the effect of a spell besides making it unusable.

If I had to, I could name several spells that SE has reconfigured to make suitable for use by BLU.

[Babekeke]

First off, 5 set points is not even close to an analog of 10. For its level and any level after it, 1000 Needles has always been complete trash between dealing only 1,000 damage, costing 350 MP and taking 12 seconds to cast; the later nerf to ACC was just an insult. It's the Dev Team's inability to balance and make spells somewhat useful that has led to 90%+ of our spell list being completely useless.

Anyways, tangent aside, no this isn't how BLU works. Having a spell cost 10 set points and cost 350+ MP doesn't fix the spell, it breaks it. There are plenty of ways to balance the effect of a spell besides making it unusable.

If I had to, I could name several spells that SE has reconfigured to make suitable for use by BLU.

You seem to be completely missing the point. SE says it would be broken if we had it. I say let BLU have it at full strength and make it stupidexpensive. Then you ahve to weigh up the pros and cons of setting/using it.

Mind, either way there'll be nothing but Q.Qing from the playerbase.

Q.Q SE gave us the spell, but it's too expensive to set.
Q.Q SE gave us the spell but nerfed it.
Q.Q SE won't give us the spell because they say it'll be broken if we do.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

You seem to be completely missing the point. SE says it would be broken if we had it. I say let BLU have it at full strength and make it stupidexpensive. Then you ahve to weigh up the pros and cons of setting/using it.

Mind, either way there'll be nothing but Q.Qing from the playerbase.

Q.Q SE gave us the spell, but it's too expensive to set.
Q.Q SE gave us the spell but nerfed it.
Q.Q SE won't give us the spell because they say it'll be broken if we do.

Even at 300 MP I still think full-powered it'd be over-powered.

I'm with SE here, don't give it too BLU. Though I'd rather they just say "We have no intention of giving it to BLU" Rather than "It'd be too powerful" when it's obvious SE could gimp it.

[saevel]

The more overpowering a spell is, the harder is should be to accomodate. The 4-5 point spells tend to be thus, so if you want to set them, you can't set as many.
1000 needles was *supposed* to be way overpowering for it's level (unfortunately the broken accuracy made this not so) so it was 5 points to set and 350mp.

Hence, that's how BLU works.

You can't win this argument. Prothscar, along with many other BLU's here, are under the impression that they should be the most powerful job in the game, period. He wants no set points, access to all spells, 95% acc on all spells, high damage on all spells, low cast / recast time on all spells, low MP cost on all spells, access to all DD gear, access to all WS, access to erase, access to erasega, access to curaga, access to cure 4.5, access to several stuns, access to both light and dark aoe sleeps, ability to self SC, ability to self MB, ability to self haste, ability to self refresh, ability to berserk, ability to nuke, native access to 7+ shadows, native access to aoe stoneskin, and a pink pony for christmas.

The pony is considered optional, the rest is mandatory else he feels the world's against him.

Taken from a developer perspective (I've actually worked on a MMO before) BLU is the most overpowered job in the game, simply by it's access to nearly everything in the game. Only way to impose game balance is to restrict it somehow, thus the set point / slot system was put in place. To further limit BLU SE imposed various restrictions on spells and abilities to maintain BLU's balance with respect to the other 20 jobs in the game. Of course SE has an absolute horrible track record for maintaining balance past a release, thus many of BLU's older spells are rather useless, then again most of BLM's spells eventually become useless. When they modify things they also tend to go too far, its either brokenly overpowered or ridiculously weak, Ranged attacks being a prime example of this. Of course trying to explain any of this is fanboi's is rather impossible, they don't want balance, they just want to be broken and feel special.

Yes the feeling of entitlement is that bad. For any BLU feeling that SE somehow "hates" you or "ignores" you, go play fcking Summoner, Beast master, Thief or Ranger for awhile. Or if your feeling particularly masochistic, go play Red Mage, a job SE is so scared of that they've decided to give it nearly nothing. Then come back and complain about SE doesn't "get you" or isn't giving you what you want.

[SpankWustler]

You can't win this argument. Prothscar, along with many other BLU's here, are under the impression that they should be the most powerful job in the game, period. He wants no set points, access to all spells, 95% acc on all spells, high damage on all spells, low cast / recast time on all spells, low MP cost on all spells, access to all DD gear, access to all WS, access to erase, access to erasega, access to curaga, access to cure 4.5, access to several stuns, access to both light and dark aoe sleeps, ability to self SC, ability to self MB, ability to self haste, ability to self refresh, ability to berserk, ability to nuke, native access to 7+ shadows, native access to aoe stoneskin, and a pink pony for christmas.

The pony is considered optional, the rest is mandatory else he feels the world's against him.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_li7lnbG7Y51qafrh6.jpg

I'm not sure how people saying "Spells are typically made weaker rather than being give huge set point and MP costs and I think this trend will continue. Also, some spells are disproportionately useful given the set points required." leads into job balance and stuff.

I hope anybody who does want a pink pony is happy now, though!

[Zagen]

You can't win this argument. Prothscar, along with many other BLU's here, are under the impression that they should be the most powerful job in the game, period. He wants no set points, access to all spells, 95% acc on all spells, high damage on all spells, low cast / recast time on all spells, low MP cost on all spells, access to all DD gear, access to all WS, access to erase, access to erasega, access to curaga, access to cure 4.5, access to several stuns, access to both light and dark aoe sleeps, ability to self SC, ability to self MB, ability to self haste, ability to self refresh, ability to berserk, ability to nuke, native access to 7+ shadows, native access to aoe stoneskin, and a pink pony for christmas.

This made me laugh because obviously I've missed all these posts Prothscar and all these "many other BLU's" have made demanding everything.




Taken from a developer perspective (I've actually worked on a MMO before) BLU is the most overpowered job in the game, simply by it's access to nearly everything in the game.

I'm not sure what you did on an MMO but if it was Game Design then I'm curious how much of a role you actually had in the decisions if any. Even if all BLU spells were unlocked it still wouldn't replace BLM for nuking, it would replace any heavy DD for DDing on anything hard. It wouldn't replace THF for TH. It wouldn't replace WHM as healer. It wouldn't replace RDM, BRD, or NIN as the go to enfeebler. It wouldn't replace BRD or COR as the go to buffer. It wouldn't replace PLD as the go to hard crap tank. The list goes on.

BLU is a powerful job in certain scenarios. Even if you remove the limitations imposed to create play style diversity it still only powerful in certain scenarios.

[Arcon]

I hope anybody who does want a pink pony is happy now, though!

I know I am. Much appreciated.

[Tennotsukai]

They wont give a spell that lasts the full time of the JA recast, it'd be 3 minutes at most.

Also they gave their version of a Phalanx last update, they wont add another. I'm still calling a ~500dmg Stoneskin.

I can understand the pessimistic views on SE making UL spells with a duration not lasting the recast of UL, but there is always a chance. After all, Stoneskin spells (with the exception of SMN) all last 5 min duration.

SE can be full of surprises at times. Remember Occultation? You think if they were to place Occultation under UL it would be only a 3 min duration with 3 more blinks?

Of course, SE likes to fail at times, too. Let's hope for no more fail spells like Feather Barrier, Hydro Shot, and Barrier Tusk.

[Darkvalkyr]

I've wanted more than anything for SE to fix old BLU spells to be workable but at this point it's kinda pointless. My heart finally broke with Asuran Claws after the previous batch of spells.

Ah well~

[Tashan]

Yeah I used Asuran Claws for the first time this week and it was so amazingly luckluster.

It did the same damage as Delta Thrust for me.

[Prothscar]

Yeah I used Asuran Claws for the first time this week and it was so amazingly luckluster.

It did the same damage as Delta Thrust for me.

Surprised it did that much tbh. On paper it's a great spell, but the way fTP works on BLU spells sort of ruins any prospect of it ever doing reasonable damage.

[Demonofhunger]

BLU... the only job where the overwhelming majority of your abilities were terrible at the level you got them and they never had the niche use that people thought they had.

[Tennotsukai]

Wishlist:

I would like a spell that lowers the enemies attack and magic attack, kind of like Benthic Typhoon but the other way around. Spike Flail and Bloody Claws sure would be nice, too....but yahh, hard to ask for.

Also, wouldn't mind a couple more buff spells, a new stoneskin would be handy, can never go wrong with phalanx, though I'm sure SE has made it clear we're not ever going to get a phalanx, and I would like a spell to increase our evasion for longer than 30 seconds (something like 3 minutes would do).

Overall, BLU's got a lot of physical spells that debuff (delta thrust & benthic)...would really like to see more spells like these. Would really appreciate anything with 3 minutes or more for our buffs. Lastly, please fix some of our terrible spells that we never use....ever.... (Feather Barrier, Barrier Tusk, and etc.) Asuran Claws is sad...maybe increase its set points to make it as good as hysteric barrage? I realize this is kind of like a Christmas list so if anything...SE, you can get me all of this for Christmas. Thank you!

[Prothscar]

Bloody Claws would be so sexy. :\

[Dohati]

more slots for blue magic please! i can easily use all 20 of my slots at 95 with points left over.

[Kennx]

Frog Cheer... !!!

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I think this is right:

Spell - Blue Mage Points cost (Job Trait)
Barbed Crescent - 2 (Dual Wield)
Wind Breath - 2 (Fast Cast)
Vapor Spray - 3 (Max MP)
Amorphic Spikes - 4 (Gil finder spells plus this = Treasure Hunter)
Thunder Breath - 4 (Max HP)
O. Counterstance - 5 (Counter)
Quadrastrike - 5 (Skillchain Bonus)

Pythic thingy is broken only get a "Has no effect" error when I use it.

[Varazslo]

more slots for blue magic please! i can easily use all 20 of my slots at 95 with points left over.

I doubt we'll get more slots, because we could set and have every job trait if they did which would make every other job /cry.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I doubt we'll get more slots, because we could set and have every job trait if they did which would make every other job /cry.

Would they really care, they're always weaker than main job anyway?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

What uses barbed and quad?

[Aeonk]

What uses barbed and quad?
Barbed Crescent is a Fomor ability.
Quadrastrike is a Dynamis Kindred ability (probably other ones as well.)

[Dohati]

I doubt we'll get more slots, because we could set and have every job trait if they did which would make every other job /cry.

if they added extra slots via merits, we would only get like 5 tops, and i personally couldn't get every trait with only 5 more slots. even if that's possible, i'm sure it would be highly impractical with little to no useful spells to cast.

[Prothscar]

Kinda ridonkulous that they want us to spend 15 set points and 4 slots for the first tier of fast cast.

[Darkvalkyr]

So many slot costs. Gahhh.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Barbed Crescent is a Fomor ability.
Quadrastrike is a Dynamis Kindred ability (probably other ones as well.)Oh that's right, I remember them both now. I'm pretty sure I've seen quad outside too.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Apparently it's the only move Marquis Sabnock uses.

[Sparthos]

Pretty sure Kindred in Uleguerand Range use Quadrastrike and are the only demons outside Dynamis to use said ability.

It's been a while since I partied in Uleg so yeah..

[SpankWustler]

Pretty sure Kindred in Uleguerand Range use Quadrastrike and are the only demons outside Dynamis to use said ability.

It's been a while since I partied in Uleg so yeah..

At the very least, they use Condemnation like their demonic bros in Dynamis. I remember being hit by it very distinctly. It was many moons ago. I was on White Mage. No matter where I stood, every other person in the group worked together to make sure Condemnation hit me and stunned me and annoyed me. It seems like a safe bet that they have Quadrastrike, too.

I assume the demons in Castle Zvahl (S) have access to Quadrastrike, also.