Thoughts on the FFXI Job Adjustment Manifesto

[Sotek]

Well, not every event had atma, but a melee job not having a critical hit weaponskill killed it in Abyssea. If the new armor in this new event is highly saught after then it would make sense really lol.

There's no confirmation of this new event, though. In fact, they only event they've really detailed in coming updates is Voidwatch, so lets drop this hypothetical event for now; the matter still stands that Helix ~ Helix IV is still a better solution than this idiocy. Feel free to bring Abyssea up as well though. We were completely screwed out of that, too.

[Dantedmc]

It's pretty obviously that they didn't do this to makes schs feel more "scholar-like" early on. If this was the actual reason the spells would have been sch exclusive like afflatus for whm and voidwatch wouldn't have even been an issue. It seems SE just wants sch to be a subjob. First accesion / manifestation were given away. Then most of storms and klimaform. Now the helices are purposely lowered to subjob level. I'm waiting for SE to make all storms subbable too. What will we have at 99 that really matters? All that we have gained from the level cap is some lame 1 tp/tic regain and some enmity spells that barely make a difference. We also have immanence which we can't use in a party set up because of all the wss and perpetuance which is hindered by nms constant use of dispeling abilities.

The Regen enhancements also do nothing for schs healing issues. 50hp/tic isn't even that much. It's roughly 1000hp/minute which is less than 1 cure V that can be done in around 1 second.

This update seems more for whm and blm to use /sch in voidwatch than for sch.

[Alhanelem]

since none of us currently benefit from lower level Helices, we're all already Lv.95.Sorry, not everyone has leveled every job to 95. Some haven't by choice, and there are still newer and returning people from time to time.

[Sotek]

Oh look who it is bring not-posts to the table once more.

Yes I'm aware there are people so wrong in the head that they'll reach Lv.30 and choose not to level in Abyssea. That's completely beside the point.

[Merton9999]

Well I obviously don't know what new events are coming but if they are level capped and that's why helix spells have been lowered then I'd rather SCH just have nothing unique to do there. Seriously, level capped garbage is about the worst thing I can imagine for future content. We spend 2 years making level 80+ armor and they add level cap junk for the future? A huge no thanks on that.

In any case, I don't understand the point of scaling the spells instead of just adding more tiers like EVERY OTHER JOB. Those tiers could be used to proc in VW so we don't have this obsolete SCH end game situation getting worse.

This is one of those times I really want a dislike button. A lot.

[Sasaraixx]

Oh Camate, how I hoped my Japanese had failed me. Sadly, my translation was correct. I just don't understand the rationale behind this.

Scholar like ability at low levels. There are a few things wrong with this. While I do think it is important to consider all levels, the game has changed so much that I do not think a change of this magnitude is warranted. Considering how incredibly easy it is to level these days, any budding SCH will not be going long before the reached level 50. Also, I think that there are plenty of SCH-like "activities" at those levels already. We have Light/Dark Arts and a few stratagems. Most jobs take a while before they really heat up.

As far as strengthening Helices, that clearly did not require this change. As others have said, additional tiers could have been added. There was plenty of room from 75 onwards to add more spells. Judging by the comments though, it doesn't sound like that is the route the team is headed. (Note: Be prepared for serious anger from SCHs if *at least* tier II helices aren't added.) If we are stuck with the same helix spells, you simply could have had them scale with Elemental Magic or tweak the bonus from Dark Arts.

The Voidwatch comments are also troubling. I would hope that the team would have realized the impact this would have on the job. The fact that it was hotly discussed and still implemented is discouraging. The proc system in VW seemed like it was a direct answer to Abyssea's. So many jobs were left out of that system and it seemed like the team was looking to make Voidwatch more inviting. This change really pins the nail on the coffin for SCH in that respect.

As someone else said, perhaps the team is coming up with more events that would require SCHs to have those spells at lower levels. (I cringe at the thought of more level caps.) Those events would have to be real endgame activities with endgame rewards to balance this out. I am highly doubtful that will be the case though.

This was more of a buff for /SCH than SCH main. The dev. team has to understand this. Making Helix spells more powerful for SCH main won't fix this. No group invites BLM because Tornado or WatergaIII are great spells. They do because they are potential procs. Unless you buff Helix spells to such a level that they are broken, it will not convince most groups to take a SCH because it simply isn't needed.

I'd also like to add the the JP SCH's are equally upset. I've posted there and read the comments. The feelings are pretty universal. I hope you will consider them carefully. This adjustment may have created more problems than it actually fixed. :(

[Sasaraixx]

In any case, I don't understand the point of scaling the spells instead of just adding more tiers like EVERY OTHER JOB.

I'm beginning to wonder if it is because of limitations to how many new spells the game can hold. They don't want to "waste" spells on more tiers of Helices, so they are doing this instead.

[Merton9999]

I'm beginning to wonder if it is because of limitations to how many new spells the game can hold. They don't want to "waste" spells on more tiers of Helices, so they are doing this instead.

Yeah I keep hearing this. If that's the case my vote still stands. I'd rather be able to come SCH in current end game that will probably continue for a while than whatever this hypothetical new activity is. We already managed to get left out of Abyssea with a grab bag of practical joke additions. I don't want to see it again here with VW. And like I said if the new event is level capped I'll be skipping it entirely, so no need to worry about bringing my SCH to it.

[Economizer]

While I won't pretend to understand what job will benefit from sub usable Helix spells in a major way, I think I have a solution for all the Scholars who want Scholar only Helix procs.

Only allow Helix spells under the effect of Immanence to proc.

Yes, it costs a stratagem, but it would allow the devs to have their sub usable Helix spells without hurting Scholar only proccing too bad (while I'm not going to debate whether or not Scholars would get invited or not if they didn't have unique procs, I will strongly state that there are other good reasons for Scholars to come to Voidwatch aside from proccing welfare). Also, it would sortof fit the picture of Scholar's being tactical mages.

[Sasaraixx]

While I won't pretend to understand what job will benefit from sub usable Helix spells in a major way

I give up!


I will strongly state that there are other good reasons for Scholars to come to Voidwatch

I've still yet to hear you give a good one.

[SpankWustler]

We understand your concerns very well, but it has been difficult for us to focus on anything other than Voidwatch. With that said, we have decided to consider not only the current situation, but also the future, which is why we decided to allow scholar-like activity from a lower level so that they can participate more actively in the battle content that will be added in the future.

Thank you for removing my hopes for tier II helices and replacing them with an all-consuming fear that level-capped content is on the dark and perilous horizon.

[Merton9999]

While I won't pretend to understand what job will benefit from sub usable Helix spells in a major way, I think I have a solution for all the Scholars who want Scholar only Helix procs.

Only allow Helix spells under the effect of Immanence to proc.

Yes, it costs a stratagem, but it would allow the devs to have their sub usable Helix spells without hurting Scholar only proccing too bad (while I'm not going to debate whether or not Scholars would get invited or not if they didn't have unique procs, I will strongly state that there are other good reasons for Scholars to come to Voidwatch aside from proccing welfare). Also, it would sortof fit the picture of Scholar's being tactical mages.

The problem is there are any number of things they could do, I can think of a million easy tweaks. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than removing the spells from subjobs like the Afflatus JAs. And I understand that Mocchi said they want to look at ways to make SCH main more useful, but regardless of the words we have two years of 76-95 actions that say the exact opposite, including one of the worst ones with this update after they already made the "SCH main more useful" statement. I'm not holding my breath any more, and at this point I'm kind of done making suggestions just to see this kind of nonsense in the end.

EDIT
Yeah so I just told my LS about this helix adjustment and naturally the first response was "lol I guess you get to come WHM/SCH to VW now..."

Before I go to bed infuriated by this new nerf to SCH, I'm going to second Sotek's suggestion that SE just scrap the helix adjustments for this update completely. In fact, I'd prefer absolutely no updates to SCH than to have helix spells subbable. Whatever miniscule amount of utility would be added with the regen adjustments, it's going to be completely washed out by the helix change.

Just do something simple and make MV stop missing and not stack. That can't be hard, and every SCH would like it.

[Economizer]

It doesn't have to be any more complicated than removing the spells from subjobs like the Afflatus JAs.

Bad design. Good design would be allowing the JA but with nerfs like they did it for years before on things that would be considered too powerful. Some buffs aren't too powerful, like Convert. Some would be considered too powerful from a sub job, like Accession or Meditate.

From a sub Scholar perspective, I don't see a strong reason for Helix spells being at a sub usable level, outside of a proc system. Jobs that nuke will be able to nuke without them, and jobs that don't won't really use them anyways at higher levels from what I see. Maybe there are niche uses (a level capped BCNM or two comes to mind), but generally this won't be affecting job balance outside of proc welfare.

From a Scholar main standpoint, in terms of flavor of the job, Scholar is augmented by heavy use of job abilities. Rather then adding more spells, I'd rather see these job abilities augment the spells in major ways, especially for Scholar main. While things like tier 2 helix spells and tier 2 storm spells would fit Scholar well, being able to get the equivalents of these via arts and stratagem usage would fit Scholar better, at least in my opinion, even when it comes to proc welfare. Even if it took more coding work.

On Helix spells in general, if SE decides they are going to go ahead with lower level Helix spells that scale with level, I think a passable alternative to straight up Helix 2 spells would either be my previous suggestion. A good alternative to Helix 2 spells would be dual helix spells that work with Immanence to create more complex skillchains, and happen to be the new procs.

Helix spells usable at a lower level may or may not be a good idea dependent on how SE deals with it, but ultimately, I'm not going to spend my time arguing against the direction SE wants to go with the game considering that they still are going in that direction despite some protests on the JP and NA boards, at least in this case. I'm going to try to suggest something that fits both the dev's goals and the player's. It might not be the best solution for players, people might spew venom rather then explain their feelings rationally about it on occasion, but I feel that it is the more realistic solution.

[Merton9999]

I'm not at all concerned with whether or not it's considered "bad design" from some sort of scholastic or purist point of view. I'd prefer a simple pragmatic solution to a problem everyone else sees. No one would miss subbable helix spells. You can keep following the FFXI 101 design handbook, I'll keep suggesting they stop going this direction since we have a test server and a feedback forum for such things.

[Economizer]

I'll keep suggesting they stop going this direction since we have a test server and a feedback forum for such things.

Perhaps Scholars will manage to get sub usable Helix spells blocked. I don't think it would overly affect anyone outside of procs. This has a pretty good chance of even being the best solution to the issue - even if SE went along with Helix spells scaling up with level, I don't think there would be much difference if Helix spells were just learned at level 50 or 55 if they really wanted to lower the level on them.

All that said, I just think that given how much SE's team seems to want this change, there should be suggestions that work with it too, in addition to just saying that Helix spells shouldn't be adjusted in level. If the dev team is willing to be flexible, we should be too in our feedback. It is more of a back up plan of sorts, kind of like saying, "I would much prefer A, but if you must go with B, please make C adjustments to the idea."

So please, keep up the pressure in what you want, I don't think it is unreasonable to say Helix spells shouldn't be sub usable. Just be willing to discuss alternatives if the changes SE is making end up going through. :D

[Creelo]

We understand your concerns very well, but it has been difficult for us to focus on anything other than Voidwatch.

First, I don't think the dev team or the community reps understand our concerns very well.

And if the dev team truly can't focus on anything other than VW at the moment, then how about they finally add that "Add spoils to treasure pool" option we've all been asking for.

kthxbai <.<

[Sotek]

All that said, I just think that given how much SE's team seems to want this change, there should be suggestions that work with it too, in addition to just saying that Helix spells shouldn't be adjusted in level. If the dev team is willing to be flexible, we should be too in our feedback. It is more of a back up plan of sorts, kind of like saying, "I would much prefer A, but if you must go with B, please make C adjustments to the idea."

The issue I have with this is that there is literally no reason for them to lower the level of Helices. When they have no conceivable reason to do this it's very hard to cut them some slack.

Letting lower level Scholars feel more scholarly is a non-reason and quite clearly bullshit, or at the very least extremely poorly thought out; be it through a new level capped end game event that the majority of people are going to hate, or simply not understanding the current level system that badly.
Adjusting the strength of them, again, doesn't require their level to be dropped. Another non-reason.

I'd be flexible with them if they'd be honest with us. If they came out and said "We don't want Scholar to be useful for our stupid Stagger system", I'd be flexible, pissed off, but flexible. As it is, I'm just pissed off. Eight Helices isn't exactly the twenty four unique spells Black Mage gets for Stagger, but it was a start. Now White Mage gets them all, thanks SE.

[Zhronne]

I'm beginning to wonder if it is because of limitations to how many new spells the game can hold. They don't want to "waste" spells on more tiers of Helices, so they are doing this instead.
Was about to say.
They already mentioned in some post in the past that they are "running out of space" for new JAs and new spells.
It's fine, we don't need Tier II helixes. Making Helixes stronger is very welcome indeed but losing our uniquness totally is not.

I still don't get the point of this choice, Mocchi's post makes no sense to me. Either I'm missing something to understand their perspective, or it's an excuse.

[Bayohne]

Mocchi made a lengthy follow-up to yesterday's post, and I want to make sure you're aware of some of the reasoning behind some of the changes that are taking place.



Let me start by explaining our new policy.

As you all know, the level cap will be raised to 99 soon. After that, as I mentioned elsewhere, we are planning on implementing various other adjustments, such as reviewing merit point categories.

Considering these changes, although it may take longer to finalize, some jobs will require fundamental overhaul instead of minor adjustments.

For example, for puppetmasters we plan on re-examining every attachment and the AI logic of automatons. For corsair we plan on re-evaluating every roll. Similarly, we would like to adjust the fundamentals of scholar, namely light & dark arts and Helix spells.

I’m sorry for making similar requests two days in a row, but please understand that we are making adjustments so that scholar becomes a useful job all around and not just a tool for procing weakness in Voidwatch content.

Regarding whether being able to use Helix spells starting at a lower level is right or wrong, we understand that it is possible to level up in Grounds of Valor and Abyssea with the help of other players, but we do not consider that standard procedure. This is the same reasoning as why job adjustments do not factor in leveling in Abyssea areas as a standard issue.

Next up are Helix spells.

Instead of shortening the time in between damage dealt over time, we would like to establish that damage is dealt every 10 seconds. We also plan on increasing the amount of damage dealt and fixing the effect duration at 90 seconds instead of 45-90 seconds. We will prepare these changes in time for the next test server update.

Regarding accuracy, Helix spells are set to have similar accuracy as tier IV black magic spells, so we will not be adjusting their accuracy. Instead, we decided to stabilize Helix spells by fixing damage dealt and their effect duration.

This is a bit off-topic, but regarding the effects of "Adloquium," we decided not to adjust its base stats. In the future, we plan on looking into introducing gear that enhances the effect.
*Updated the statement regarding "Adloquium" as it was unclear.

[Asymptotic]

Wait, there's gear that enhances Adloquium? This is news to me.

[Alhanelem]

Wait, there's gear that enhances Adloquium? This is news to me.

1234567890

[Kimble]

Maybe its enhancing magic based? like how boost and gain spells are?

[Bayohne]

Fixed! Man, you guys are callin' me out non-stop today. Spelled scholar wrong, Bayohne! I've never seen Adloquium-enhancing gear, Bayohne! We miss Camate, Bayohne!

Man... :(

[Economizer]

Wait, there's gear that enhances Adloquium? This is news to me.

I think they mean gear that boosts the stratagems that can be used with it, like making it last longer. Either that or they're going to release gear that makes it more potent. I really hope so too, because I'd die of a laughing fit if they really meant equipping gear to boost Accession and Perpetuance.

Edit:


In the future, we plan on looking into introducing gear that enhances the effect.

Yup, edited very quickly to reflect what they meant. Poor community reps almost got schooled by a horde of angry Scholars who are acting like they just lost Tenure.

Actually, I think Tenure should be a new Scholar ability of some sort.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: Post corrected

[Byrth]

Also, you'd have to be a little bit willfully blind to not consider Grounds of Valor and Abyssea "standard procedure."

[SpankWustler]

I guess the general theme of the Scholar adjustments is "We're working on a lot of stuff with Scholar right now, it's a process, please be patient and don't expect any one change to move mountains."

Given that the Regen changes are pretty decent and that the few job over-hauls have gone well in the past, I'm okay with believing the current state of Helices is just one phase of a larger change. Well, assuming that large change doesn't involve level-capped content and me feeling sad because of level-capped content.


This is a bit off-topic, but regarding the effects of "Adloquium," we decided not to adjust its base stats. We recommend increasing its effects by adjusting equipped gear.

I recommend developing a piece of gear that enhances the potency of "Adloquium" some time between now and level 99. I love equipment that affects spells or abilities, but such equipment needs to actually exist in order to have such effects.

Edit: A lot happened while I was going to the bathroom with my post half-typed, apparently! I see gear that enhances "Adloquium" is already planned. Cool.

[Ank]

Vague future adjustments are great and all, just remember that we live now and saying "yeah this adjustment sucks now and only serves to lessen your importance, but we've got a plan" is hard to swallow.


I love equipment that affects spells or abilities

I do to but... I've got a lot of gear on sch. Why can't adloquium just not suck?

[Sasaraixx]

I’m sorry for making similar requests two days in a row, but please understand that we are making adjustments so that scholar becomes a useful job all around and not just a tool for procing weakness in Voidwatch content.

I would ask how that adjustment makes SCH more useful all around. I also would ask you to question the wisdom of making yet another endgame event where SCH lacks any spell procs. Many jobs were left out of Abyssea. You've added a new one to Voidwatch.


Regarding whether being able to use Helix spells starting at a lower level is right or wrong, we understand that it is possible to level up in Grounds of Valor and Abyssea with the help of other players, but we do not consider that standard procedure.

I think it is pretty standard. While key spots in Abyssea parties should not be considered the norm for leveling up, you cannot deny that standard parties are without a doubt the least used method of the three. I can't understand making an adjustment that really isn't that helpful based on a fairly underutilized form of leveling.


Instead of shortening the time in between damage dealt over time, we would like to establish that damage is dealt every 10 seconds.

Even slower tics? You have to increase the damage and duration then. Is the 90 second duration included in the Dark Arts bonus? Will it be available to /SCH jobs as well? You seem to be creating more problems with Helices than actually making them better for Scholars.


This is a bit off-topic, but regarding the effects of "Adloquium," we decided not to adjust its base stats. We recommend increasing its effects by adjusting equipped gear.

How? No gear in the game adjusts the effect, only the duration. Or are you saying that Enhancing Skill now affects potency?

Edit!!
Don't think about adding this gear. Do it!

[Sasaraixx]

Edit:

Yup, edited very quickly to reflect what they meant. Poor community reps almost got schooled by a horde of angry Scholars who are acting like they just lost Tenure.

Actually, I think Tenure should be a new Scholar ability of some sort.

I have a feeling you are about to get it a lot worse than Bayohne.

[Atomic_Skull]

Considering these changes, although it may take longer to finalize, some jobs will require fundamental overhaul instead of minor adjustments.

But not THF.

[Merton9999]

If the aim of subbable helix spells is to make SCH useful in an unspecified upcoming event then I ask that you wait until that event is introduced to make the helix adjustments. At least I could continue to participate in Voidwatch on Scholar for a while. The idea that something no one here likes is going to be great someday doesn't leave me any more optimistic than Libra, Animus and Adloquium that could have been useful in 2007 but not today. SE's timing is severely off on SCH.

Adloquium potency based on gear is discouraging. Maybe because of the 5 million gil price tag that will accompany its Voidwatch 0.01% drop rate, or if rare/ex the fact that the first time my group sees it will probably be when someone in my LS who's never actually used an MP bar opens his pyxis. Either that or when it shows up in mine it won't fit in my 80/80 SCH gobbie bag. I'd be elated if it just scaled with enhancing magic.

This logic that lower level helices are geared toward "standard" leveling practices is backwards. Instead of looking at how people actually play and designing SCH to fit it, you're making development choices around the way we somehow "should" be doing it but few people actually do. I get that this has been standard SE practice for a multitude of jobs, but it's getting ridiculous on SCH.

Yesterday I was scared of new CoP style level cap content. Now I'm scared of a job overhaul that is designed to fit us very well into the CoP era of partying. I shudder to think what's coming tomorrow - I'm going to have nightmares about using yellow liquids on Mammets while capped at level 20 for my SCH 96 solo limit break.

At least I will be able to helix them.

[Raksha]

If these things are supposed to make SCH more desirable in the future, then the only possible course I can see is SE nerfing the ever-loving-shit out of all the other jobs.

[Merton9999]

If these things are supposed to make SCH more desirable in the future, then the only possible course I can see is SE nerfing the ever-loving-shit out of all the other jobs.

Or the NMs that make buffs useless or even harmful. I can't wait for my 50/tic 2.5 minute regen to be dispelgad or stolen. At least I won't be silenced, zombied, plagued, poisoned and petrified while reapplying it.

[Mizuharu]

Just a small thing about Modus Veritas...

Couldn't you (the dev team) just make the first Modus Veritas used on a target 100% acc for landing, then any other MV used on said target has the current acc. check? It's near impossible to stagger anything in voidwatch; and even with the 3min recast that's duo, this really won't be too much help if it just keeps missing.

[Delvish]

Just a small thing about Modus Veritas...

Couldn't you (the dev team) just make the first Modus Veritas used on a target 100% acc for landing, then any other MV used on said target has the current acc. check? It's near impossible to stagger anything in voidwatch; and even with the 3min recast that's duo, this really won't be too much help if it just keeps missing.

Or an even better option. A second SCH in any group is so rare... I would have no qualms what-so-ever if Modus just didn't stack anymore. That simple. Give us back the accuracy but get rid of the multiplicative bonus. Seriously, it isn't used anymore.

[Zhronne]

Thanks Bayohne. Mocchi's clarification offers a better insight on the development team's perspective. I don't know if I agree with them, but at least now I can understand better that they're doing.

As for Adloquium it's a bit of a shame it will be enhanced through gear and not through Stratagems (inventory+1? No thanks! ; ; ) but I guess that's better than nothing :)

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Thanks Bayohne. Mocchi's clarification offers a better insight on the development team's perspective. I don't know if I agree with them, but at least now I can understand better that they're doing.

As for Adloquium it's a bit of a shame it will be enhanced through gear and not through Stratagems (inventory+1? No thanks! ; ; ) but I guess that's better than nothing :)

Taking up inventory to increase a Regain effect is fine. Depending on how high it goes it could be one of the deciders on if a SCH actually becomes useful in a party situation.

[Zhronne]

Yes yes, I agree. It's just that I have some sort of obsessive compulsive disease when it comes to inventory, and often I prefer a single generic piece that offers a performance of 8 (on a scale from 1 to 10) compared to 3 specific items that grant me a performance of 10 but in specific field.
I know that's not the way high-end players are supposed to behave, but when possible I always try to do that.

Of course in the end, as I mentioned before, I can only welcome an enhancement to Adloquium, even if it comes in the form of gear and not a JA/Stratagem.

[Mayoyama]

We miss Camate, Bayohne!

Man... :(

Um.. did something happen to Camate? ):
Hope he is still around, his posts are funny ^^

[Keyln]

Fixed! Man, you guys are callin' me out non-stop today. Spelled scholar wrong, Bayohne! I've never seen Adloquium-enhancing gear, Bayohne! We miss Camate, Bayohne!

Man... :(

You need the marbolo avatar before you'll be taken seriously around here.

You with the moogle...just not working.

[Delvish]

Yes yes, I agree. It's just that I have some sort of obsessive compulsive disease when it comes to inventory, and often I prefer a single generic piece that offers a performance of 8 (on a scale from 1 to 10) compared to 3 specific items that grant me a performance of 10 but in specific field.


That isn't OCD, that is just efficient and often much more accepted nowadays given the inventory issue.

[Raksha]

Yes yes, I agree. It's just that I have some sort of obsessive compulsive disease when it comes to inventory, and often I prefer a single generic piece that offers a performance of 8 (on a scale from 1 to 10) compared to 3 specific items that grant me a performance of 10 but in specific field.
I know that's not the way high-end players are supposed to behave, but when possible I always try to do that.


I wish I had that disorder, I have the opposite one which compels me to carry around all 4 of the "Enhances Stoneskin" items. ... >_<

[Merton9999]

I wish I had that disorder, I have the opposite one which compels me to carry around all 4 of the "Enhances Stoneskin" items. ... >_<

Me too, along with eight obis, 16 staves, blah blah. It's already gotten to the point where SCH not only has to decide between optimizations based on available strategems (which is enough, imo) but also based on what gear we care to fit in our bag. It seems like the plan is to only make this worse, unless the Adloquium gear introduction comes with another gobbie bag quest.

[Economizer]

Me too, along with eight obis, 16 staves, blah blah.

I don't think getting an extra 120 or so HP from Stoneskin is a good gear choice, but the eight obis and the staves are pretty much neccisary to be fully effective.

Of course, I'm just repeating this, but maybe this time we'll get it.

The Elemental Obi need to be combined. The quest for this should be easy.

The elemental staves should at least be combined by element (combine the Accuracy, Damage, and maybe the avatar perp) in a quest for each. Plus side if they also combine after that by skillchain parings like Fusion, Fragmentation, Gravitation, and Distortion. After this they should combined for Light and Darkness staves, and then to a single staff, through increasingly harder and harder quests.

Thus, even if having a megastaff is only a dream for most people, most mages will only have to carry four or five staffs.

[Raksha]

All 8 obis and 16 staves is a bit overkill, if you ask me. I really dont see much use for fire or water staves at all, nor do I see much use for the macc staves. (At least not enough use to justify building them).

The last time I cast a fire spell for damage and not procs was Bomb Queen.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There's no real need to have all 8 obis in inventory at the same time either. 16 staves is beyond overkill.

Extra HP on stoneskin is a good gear choice... bar the earring.

[Jamesy]

There's no real need to have all 8 obis in inventory at the same time either. 16 staves is beyond overkill.

Extra HP on stoneskin is a good gear choice... bar the earring.

really? so you are going to limit your scholar's potential by not having every obi?

and i dont know where your getting 16 staves from the max my scholar has on at a time is 9 possibly 10

although i do agree the acc staves are pretty pointless as a scholar Ive never had a problem with acc the mab ones should do just fine for anyone or regular HQ

to be honest any scholar whose worth his or her grimoire would honestly have all the obis or work towards it since they are the best to have for sch atm and quite easy to obtain just time consuming.

[Delvish]

At a minimum, all scholars should have or be working towards Light, Dark, Ice, and Thunder obi as we are just as subject to the spell damage variations that Black Mages are. The only spells that didn't work like that were their AM2 spells, which everyone hopes we can match with Helix 2.

I never did crunch the numbers personally, but since helixes always take the full weather bonuses, are they affected more by the elemental obi (and by extension Twilight Cape) or a high INT piece?

[Raksha]

At a minimum, all scholars should have or be working towards Light, Dark, Ice, and Thunder obi as we are just as subject to the spell damage variations that Black Mages are. The only spells that didn't work like that were their AM2 spells, which everyone hopes we can match with Helix 2.

I never did crunch the numbers personally, but since helixes always take the full weather bonuses, are they affected more by the elemental obi (and by extension Twilight Cape) or a high INT piece?

I'm pretty sure obi has no effect, but the cape should. Dunno if anyone has actually posted testing. I use INT belt for my helixes.

As for obis I carry dark/light/ice/thunder/wind (wind because it took too long for us to get blizz5).

[Neisan_Quetz]

really? so you are going to limit your scholar's potential by not having every obi?

and i dont know where your getting 16 staves from the max my scholar has on at a time is 9 possibly 10

although i do agree the acc staves are pretty pointless as a scholar Ive never had a problem with acc the mab ones should do just fine for anyone or regular HQ

to be honest any scholar whose worth his or her grimoire would honestly have all the obis or work towards it since they are the best to have for sch atm and quite easy to obtain just time consuming.

I didn't say don't have the obis, but I really don't feel you need all 8 of them in your immediate inventory at one time. Satchel them out as necessary. 16 staves was in response to Merton.

[Sasaraixx]

I don't think getting an extra 120 or so HP from Stoneskin is a good gear choice, but the eight obis and the staves are pretty much neccisary to be fully effective.

I disagree. I cannot remember the last time I needed Stone or Fire nukes outside of procs. I think it would be a much wiser choice to carry around the extra stoneskin items then those two obis. You are no less effective. Of course you are not maximizing your potential damage (although it is unlikely you will be using those spells) but you can say the same for not maximizing your stoneskins.


The Elemental Obi need to be combined. The quest for this should be easy.

This I can agree with. My inventory on SCH is out of control. I've stopped carrying an hMP set. I just don't have room for it.

My inventory in general is being stretched thin with 7 jobs that are all well or fairly well geared.

[Camate]

Um.. did something happen to Camate? ):
Hope he is still around, his posts are funny ^^

Aw thanks! Nothing happened to me and I am still here^^ Was on a work trip for the week :)

[Kalilla]

Missed you Camate! WB /o/

[Babekeke]

Aw thanks! Nothing happened to me and I am still here^^ Was on a work trip for the week :)

Anywhere nice?
Sorry, not trying to derail the thread >.>

[Zhronne]

Aw thanks! Nothing happened to me and I am still here^^ Was on a work trip for the week :)
I wanna breed your children *_x


I mean... Welcome back!!! °_°'''

[Urteil]

/sch wee.43515

[Mayoyama]

Aw thanks! Nothing happened to me and I am still here^^ Was on a work trip for the week :)

Good to hear ^^

Although I think Bayohne was more than a bit upset that we were all calling him out on stuff and were wanting to see the posts from you >.> lol

Fixed! Man, you guys are callin' me out non-stop today. Spelled scholar wrong, Bayohne! I've never seen Adloquium-enhancing gear, Bayohne! We miss Camate, Bayohne!

Man... :(

[Camate]

Anywhere nice?
Sorry, not trying to derail the thread >.>

Austin, Texas for Game Developers Conference Online. The BBQ was out of this world! lol

Bayohne was calling me saying he missed me too! Couldn't handle the FFXI forum pressure I guess...

[Babekeke]

Austin, Texas for Game Developers Conference Online. The BBQ was out of this world! lol

Bayohne was calling me saying me missed me too! Couldn't handle the FFXI forum pressure I guess...

Well, we did give him some grief to test his mettle :D

[HimuraKenshyn]

Austin, Texas for Game Developers Conference Online. The BBQ was out of this world! lol

Bayohne was calling me saying he missed me too! Couldn't handle the FFXI forum pressure I guess...

Small world hope you enjoyed my little town lucky the heat broke lol.....

[Babekeke]

Small world hope you enjoyed my little town lucky the heat broke lol.....

Wiki says Austin, Texas has a population of 797,390... if it were in the UK that would make it the 3rd most populated city (after London, then Birmingham, unless I missed one). Just shows how perspectives differ, eh?

[Agetos]

i love living in austin, not too many people, and not too few. plus there's always a chance you'll run in to something strange. Those of you who have been here might have heard of leslie the hobo lol.

[Zhronne]

So, was anybody expecting the SCH fix (the one currently on the test server) to be released live with tuesday's patch?
I wonder when we'll see it. Compared to the past, this time they're taking more time to release content on live severs from the first time it appeared on test servers.

[Raksha]

Yeah I figured they'd toss it in there but they didnt. Guess we'll have to wait a while longer.

[Merton9999]

I thought so too, and now there's a post apologizing for the delay of items planned for October, and it doesn't even list the SCH changes. Oh well, I have mixed feelings about them anyway.

[Zhronne]

That post apologizes for the delay in the release of new content on the TEST SERVER, it's not about live servers at all.
But still yeah, the fixes to those 3 jobs have been on the test server for quite some time, it was definitely expected for them to include them in tuesday's patch.

[Zhronne]

Unless there's a typo it seems the new Test Server patch finalized the Helix changes and tweaked a bit more our Regen:
1) Potency furtherly increased (o.O wow?)
2) Lenght shortened (Q____Q)

Number 2 was totally un-necessary... hope it won't be a huge difference.
Helix changes are kinda meh, people using /SCH will get 60 seconds Helixes.
I think this applies only to /SCH and to SCHs not using Dark Arts.
Because a level 95 SCH using Dark Arts should see an even longer lasting time than 90 seconds, right?


Edit:
Yes, according to THIS (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/15845-dev1029-Job-Adjustments?p=209857#post209857) post I'm right.

[Sasaraixx]

I'm losing faith . . .


Scholar

The potency of Regen while Light Arts is in effect has been increased, and its duration shortened.

The effect duration of Helix spells will now be based on the caster's level.
Level Duration
20 — 39 30 seconds
40 — 59 60 seconds
60 and up 90 seconds

Unless the boost to Regen is substantial this isn't helpful at all. Having the duration last a long time was important given the casting time of the spell.

I really have no idea what they are doing with Helices. Where is the boost SCH main is supposed to get from Dark Arts? It sounds to me like some jobs can still cast these spells more effectively than the main job it was intended for.

[Sasaraixx]

Helix changes are kinda meh, people using /SCH will get 60 seconds Helixes.
I think this applies only to /SCH and to SCHs not using Dark Arts.

Edit:
Yes, according to THIS (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/15845-dev1029-Job-Adjustments?p=209857#post209857) post I'm right.

Are you sure? The post only mentions job level. That could just mean your main job level and not SCH job level.

[Zhronne]

The way I got their announcement is:

SCHs levelling up will see their helixes have different lasting times. Up to level 39 just 30 seconds, up to 59 => 60 seconds, then from level 60 onwards 90 seconds.
A level 99 job going /SCH will have its helixes last 60 seconds (30 seconds less than live servers?)
SCH main using Dark Arts will receive a further bonus to potency and lasting time of their helixes (see the post I linked in my earlier post, those changes supposedly apply to SCH main only)

Have no clue about the "dark arts buff to helixes", I didn't test them myself on the test server last time, only tested the Regen/LightArts stuff.

[Kaisha]

New test server update shows further tweaks to the Regen.

Done naked, using Regen IV:
Old Test Server - 46hp/tic 150s Duration
Current Test Server - 54hp/tic 112s Duration

[Daniel_Hatcher]

New test server update shows further tweaks to the Regen.

Done naked, using Regen IV:
Old Test Server - 46hp/tic 150s Duration
Current Test Server - 54hp/tic 112s Duration

Still rather disappointing.

[Zhronne]

Need to test if the new regen stacks with Enhancing skill.
Previously it didn't, it only stacked with Level.

Might be a bit hard to test it since it always gets maximized with Light Arts on, and without Light Arts we don't get the bonus.
Can anybody try to break at least the 400 enha skill tier to see if something changes?
112 seems a bizarre number, unless it's 110, that would be a 50 seconds increase over normal Regen.
How much can WHMs get with all their enhancements, 90 seconds?


Still meh... 58hp/tic... Sigh, 40 seconds less is a lot.

[Kaisha]

I timed it manually so it could be off by a couple seconds.

Will check it with some enhance gear later, busy with some lolPUP stuff atm.

[SpankWustler]

How much can WHMs get with all their enhancements, 90 seconds?

Yeah, it's 90 seconds with Orison Mitts +2.

Gaining more bonus potency and less bonus duration is a good concept, since Regen can't keep ticking on dead folks, but losing ~40 seconds of duration to gain 8 HP a tick doesn't seem like the fairest trade.

[Zhronne]

I would have preferred 8 hp less for 40 seconds more actually, but maybe it's just me hey.
Regen is potent enough, and tbf Regen IV (WHM version) would be good already. The problem is its casting time and the fact it doesn't last enough (90 seconds).

Being able to have regen ticking, even if for less, for like 7+ minutes (perpetuance +2) was awesome and would have allowed us to focus on our lolC4 while we have a powerful and lasting Regen on our party targets. Sigh...

[Sasaraixx]

The way I got their announcement is:

SCHs levelling up will see their helixes have different lasting times. Up to level 39 just 30 seconds, up to 59 => 60 seconds, then from level 60 onwards 90 seconds.
A level 99 job going /SCH will have its helixes last 60 seconds (30 seconds less than live servers?)
SCH main using Dark Arts will receive a further bonus to potency and lasting time of their helixes (see the post I linked in my earlier post, those changes supposedly apply to SCH main only)

Have no clue about the "dark arts buff to helixes", I didn't test them myself on the test server last time, only tested the Regen/LightArts stuff.

That is one possible interpretation, but it is not clear. I will wait fr confirmation from the test server.

The Dark Arts bonus also is not mentioned. One would assume that SCH main would have a longer duration but with the way these updates have been going, I no longer take anything for granted.

The Regen adjustments are incredibly disappointing and a step in the wrong direction. Let's hope there is something we are missing.

I agree with you that I would have taken 8 less HP for a 40 second duration boost. It's just not realistic to expect is to recast these every 110 seconds. Even with perpetuance it's still not great. 150 seconds should be the base duration with all of the SCH main bonuses.

[Merton9999]

Still rather disappointing.

Absolutely.

Given the current mob dispel obsession, I don't disagree with a shorter duration with more potency. The current trade-off seems disproportional though. If I'm recasting Regen every 20 seconds anyway, I'd honestly take 30 seconds for 225 per tick and a one-second casting time before I actually cared about a regen adjustment. Something like a Divine Benison and Modus Veritas combined for enhancing magic:

SCH level 90 Job Trait
Decreases casting time and duration, and increases potency for enhancing magic spells while lowering their enmity generation. Provides a dispel and absorption resistance to enhancing magic.

SCH level 90 Job Ability
10 second recast
Allows your next self-target enhancing spell to be cast on another party member.
If I can't cast Cure V from a distance I'd at least like to be able to use my set of lackluster alternatives without getting killed.

/SCH needs nothing to make it more attractive. Levels below 75 need nothing to make them more attractive given the way people actually play. The helix adjustments are still unwanted, unnecessary and damaging to the job.

[Zhronne]

I don't think they intentionally wanted to make /SCH more attractive, it's just a consequence of choices made for other purposes.
Still, it's true they are refusing to acknowledge the issue and underestimating it.
/SCH is already an insanely powerful subjob, the recent changes (and level increase) are making it even more powerful...
Perma Klimaform on /SCH? All helixes?

I dunno... they should really:
1) Acknowledge the issue
2) Promise they'll do something

I'd feel more comfortable, were that to happen.
But atm, altough probably not intentionally, /SCH is becoming more and more interesting, and that was completely unnecessary given how /SCH was really good to begin with.

[Smokenttp]

i belive 2hrs are optimizing de damage of the helix some how, i downgraded my sch to lvl 20 and went to quifim for some testing, i was having a hard time hitting good helix on worms (min 3 max 32 damage altou rare ones , usually stayed arounnd 14 dmg) but when i throwed tabula rasa i sundelly started hitting a whomping 58-59 helix (2 casts both with close numbers and all of those casts including the non 2hrds was on thunder weather), and while i was not sure i think my regen got abit more of power too, im going to reset my 2hrs and retry regen, yes confirmed that right now 2hrs infact affects regen, gone from a punny 8 regen to a huge 41.

[Zhronne]

Yes, it was said in the previous test server patch. Tabula Rasa furtherly increases the bonus Light Arts gives to Regen and Dark Arts gives to Helix.

[Sotek]

So at low levels Helices will do ~3 tics and ~32 damage? Well that is impressive SE, Thunder nearly has the same base damage as Helices will do overall, truly a worthwhile addition.

I'm amazed that they're going through with this when it has been meet with absolute rejection. Leave Helices as they were and just scale them up from there, though I guess that's meaningless now since they've already wasted the development time with this idiocy, maybe they should detail what they want to do first so we can tell them it's stupid before they waste time implementing it.

I must say I got a giggle out of their plans for merits, "Two hour merits?" I thought, "Why didn't they give us something useful last update and save Embrava/Kaustra for merits?". Then again Embrava pretty much defines Scholar at this point, but that's a whole other problem.

[Smokenttp]

from a bit more testings looks like they nerfed the helixes like hell (even tough the duration is higer) de damage is alot lower, my usual 200 dmg helix turned into jokinglys 80 dmg wich sucks alot, helixes nerf asside the buff on regen while outside 2hrs needs to be revamped as well i belive , altough it ups regen potency in about 60% i have a felling it needs to be bigger to help keeping someone alive maybe at around x3 instead of only x0.6 (considering that the 2hrs one pretty much make regen potency x6 on top of the light arts bonus) i think it wouldnt hurt to power they up a bit, and would turn regen into the main healing force of a sch leting cure being an emergency. back to helix tough i think they really need to give us an helix II now or just makes int even more powerfull for helixes( maybe a more straight int bonus)

[OuShiroHeart]

Now we have
Regen: HP(tick) 21(+16)⇒29(+24) Duration(ticks) 57(+32)⇒41(+16) Total cured 1197⇒1189
Regen II: HP(tick) 28(+16)⇒36(+24) Duration(ticks) 52(+32)⇒36(+16) Total cured 1456⇒1296
Regen III: HP(tick) 36(+16)⇒44(+24)　Duration(ticks) 52(+32)⇒36(+16) Total cured 1872⇒1584
Regen IV: HP(tick) 46(+16)⇒54(+24)　Duration(ticks) 52(+32)⇒36(+16) Total cured 2392⇒1944
Tabula Rasa makes
※White Grimoire has no effect on these values
Regen: HP(tick) 41(+36) Duration(ticks) 49(+24) Total cured 2009
Regen II: HP(tick) 48(+36) Duration(ticks) 44(+24) Total cured 2112
Regen III: HP(tick) 56(+36)　Duration(ticks) 44(+24) Total cured 2464
Regen IV: HP(tick) 66(+36)　Duration(ticks) 44(+24) Total cured 2904
※All these without empyrean hat, amounts checked by making HP1 and checking HP after regen wears off to avoid error

As for the helix change, they were already in place. This update only made it so that they always have the mentioned durations, instead of a possibly resisted duration. i.e Now, a Lv95 Sch can have a 45sec duration helix, if it is resisted. This change will remove that possiblity.

[Merton9999]

OK I must have missed this. Now helix spell potency has been divided in half, even for level 95 SCH, with the duration increased and stabilized?

I can't stop laughing. The whole problem with these spells has ALWAYS been that mobs die too fast to make their DoT worthwhile, or that the damage calculation made them useless on tough NMs. They are making both of these problems worse by requiring a longer duration to do the damage and by making the base damage lower?

How did I know that when the devs said they would be giving SCH main more attention that it would end up to be a very bad thing. Honestly, please just leave the job alone and stop making it worse.

[Zhronne]

But hey! We got Embrava and Kaustra! SCH is totally fixed now! :p

[Raksha]

OK I must have missed this. Now helix spell potency has been divided in half, even for level 95 SCH, with the duration increased and stabilized?

I can't stop laughing. The whole problem with these spells has ALWAYS been that mobs die too fast to make their DoT worthwhile, or that the damage calculation made them useless on tough NMs. They are making both of these problems worse by requiring a longer duration to do the damage and by making the base damage lower?

How did I know that when the devs said they would be giving SCH main more attention that it would end up to be a very bad thing. Honestly, please just leave the job alone and stop making it worse.

Do we have independent confirmation on the helix nerf? That one guy could've just gotten a few resists.

[Merton9999]

Do we have independent confirmation on the helix nerf? That one guy could've just gotten a few resists.

I thought OuShiroHeart was confirming it by saying the helix changes were already in place. I'd love it if it weren't true. I need some reason not to dread seeing another SCH adjustment announcement.

[Raksha]

I thought OuShiroHeart was confirming it by saying the helix changes were already in place. I'd love it if it weren't true. I need some reason not to dread seeing another SCH adjustment announcement.

I thought all that was about Tabula Rasa affecting helix spells. /shrug

[Alhanelem]

I'm not sure where people are getting this damage nerf idea from. (Someone told me that people were complaining about a nerf to helixes here- i haven't read the whole thread yet)

I cast pyrohelix on the test server, on firesday, with fire weather (from storm spell), dark arts, ebullence, with klimaform on and did 432 damage to a steppe hare in la theine plateau.

I cast the same spell under the same conditions on the live server, and did 365 damage.
The difference was more dramatically in favor of the test server in abyssea.
(Getting comprable damage with geohelix on earthsday testing further, so I can be reasonably sure it's not a resist)

How is that a nerf?

On top of that, the max duration is now 90 seconds instead of 60. Am I missing something here? This seems like a buff to me, not a nerf.

I've done a little more testing and the numbers are pretty consistent. So unless I'm experiencing weird freaks of nature or all the planets are alinging, we're not looking at a helix nerf here.

[TimeMage]

Max duration has always been 90 seconds. In the normal servers, duration is random between 45 and 90 seconds (I mean totally random, not affected by anything). The difference with the changes implemented on the test server is that in the test servers they fixed the duration to the max, 90 seconds, at high levels.

[Merton9999]

OK, thanks guys. I guess I need to get busy and sign up for the test server myself. We can only go by what people report here and we had some indication that the base value was lower. I'm glad that appears not to be true.

[Raksha]

(Someone told me that people were complaining about a nerf to helixes here- i haven't read the whole thread yet)



It was pretty much a misunderstanding.

Thank you for the test and confirmation though.

[Alhanelem]

Max duration has always been 90 seconds.Maybe my sense of time is screwed up, but I'm pretty sure its 60 right now (on live)

[TimeMage]

Maybe my sense of time is screwed up, but I'm pretty sure its 60 right now (on live)

Maybe they changed it very recently, but in my fair share of SCH solos I've used Helices countless times and the 45-90 seconds duration variance was always there. It also coincides with the experiences of many other SCHs.

I'll try today again, to see if they reduced duration to 60 s.

[Alhanelem]

It wouldn't be "reduced." 60s is the norm, and it can last longer or shorter under various cases. On average, it's 60s.

[TimeMage]

No, on average was (45+90)/2 = 67.5 seconds, it was a random uniform distribution. Going to test durations right now, let's see what I get.


Editing:

Did a small test, 30 Helix casts on worms on Abyss-Ulegerand.

Raw data, duration in seconds:


46
72
58
62
54
47
79
59
60
56
49
45
83
64
58
51
51
77
48
67
46
72
75
79
63
89
76
56
84
79

Minimum 45 s, maximum 89 s, consistent with my previous assumptions. Average duration 63.5 seconds, lower than expected, but within experimental error.

Did a fast analysis, and the data doesn't seem to follow a gaussian distribution, nor any kind of centered distribution. More data would be needed, but while I had more casts on the lower end of the duration spectrum, It seems that either the distribution is random and uniform, or lower durations are favored.

Considering that the easiest way to program the duration is "roll a random number, and renormalize it to the 45-89 seconds interval", I think the duration is still random and uniformly distributed.

[Alhanelem]

Well, that's interesting, thanks for doing that.

[Sasaraixx]

Has anyone on the test server done any testing on the Grimoire bonus to Helix spells? (I wish I could get on the test server myself!) A Scholar (Tribal) on the Japanese forum is reporting a duration of 170 seconds (base damage 71) as a lv95 SCH/NIN with Dart Arts up and 90 seconds with it down. (I assume the test was done naked.) In fact, his results seem to show a 10 second increase in the difference between the bonus and the standard duration every 10 levels. If the pattern continues it would likely reach 180 seconds at lv99.

Here are his findings. I won't translate the whole post but here is a snippet. It is very easy to follow even if you don't speak Japanese. He used Geohelix and Hydrohelix and all of the tests were done in lowbie mobs outside of Abyssea. He notes that for the test at lv 80 he forgot to remove his Helix merits.




学/忍　Lv95　INT86
敵　ミザレオ海岸　鳥
黒のグリモア〇　水門　ダメージ/71　効果時間170秒　ダメージUP/50%
黒のグリモア×　水門　ダメージ/47　効果時間90秒

SCH/NIN LV95 INT 86
Enemy Misareaux Coast Bird
Dark Arts O Hydrohelix Damage 71 Effect Duration 170 seconds Damage Up 50%
Dark Arts X Hydrohelix Damage 47 Effect Duration 90 seconds

Thanks to Tribal for his hard work.

[Sasaraixx]

And as far as Regen is concerned, I really think that the development team needs to consider more changes. I would be all for returning to the original test server values so that we could retain the long duration.

I would also like to see some bonus applied to Regen spells. I've seen a few interesting ideas such as having Regen increase Max HP (once TP reaches 100% the Regen tics continue to increase HP to a fixed amount that remains until the Regen spell wears off) or applying a bonus to the spell depending on which weather the target currently has.

The latter could make for some interesting possibilities, especially if they consider the suggestion that I and many others have made to add another Klimaform type spell (or buff the current spell) to provide a similar weather dependent bonus. The Klimaform bonus could be offensive (double attack, matk, - weapon delay, etc) and the Regen bonus defensive (baramnesia/plague, -mag damage, evasion +, etc). The Scholar would still have 3 spells to cycle through to keep these buffs up, in addition to other spells like Haste, Cures, etc so it would not be overpowered. The effects do not have to be as powerful as a pure Support job like Bard, but even a little bit would help.

If the duration is not going to be lengthened then at the very least the should reduce the casting time. That does not need to be Scholar specific necessarily.

I just feel that the changes of late have been a bit of one step forward and 1.5 steps back.

And now for my obligatory, "Do not forget the Animus spells and Aldoquium (make that gear easily attainable)."

That is all.

[Merton9999]

As far as a longer regen duration I'm still stuck on the dispel issue. I'd be fine with the original test server values if we got a trait like Divine Benison that worked for enhancing magic and provided a dispel resistance. If I'm realistically going to be recasting regen every 30 seconds, I'd like it to be potent for the time it's actually on.

For the Adloquim gear, like I said I want a gobbie bag increase simultaneously. Either that or do something I don't believe has ever been done and add it to an existing gear piece. I was disappointed to find two sublimation enhancements in the Abyssea pieces. I wouldn't mind if one was replaced by an Adloquium bonus, or if it were added to or replaced the addendum: white enhancement on the body.

I agree with everything else. Animus needs to be a gradual increase or decay like helices. We need a trait that reduces casting time and enmity for enhancing spells like Divine Benison and Elemental Celerity did for WHM and BLM primary spells.

It seems like SE is going for:

SCH + WHM + BLM > WHM|BLM + WHM + BLM

but not:

SCH > WHM or SCH > BLM

With the assumption that future end game will not turn into the Abyssea standard of starter job minus RDM plus NIN only. That's hard to do but Regen potency and Klimaform duration help in terms of lessening the curing and accuracy concerns of those jobs.

Along this line is where a Geomancy JA to elevate storm spells fits in. Allowing us to provide additional weather bonuses to WHM and BLM will be better in their hands with their enmity reduction tools/gear/traits/spell behavior. In the case where our potency offerings to those jobs would generate too much enmity we would have better animus behavior to compensate.

This is why I'd also like to see something like "Chain Soliloquy" JA (term borrowed from someone on the RDM board) that allowed Immanence to work with only spells if we wanted. That way we could reliably set up an MB for ourselves or the BLM without the DD cutting in by surprise.

[Zemarin]

Ultima For SCH would be dumb as hell... Just saying, that is and always was and will be a blm spell and should stay that way.

As for buffing Tabula Rasa, I like it now I don't see why they gotta add more to it.

Really SE I don't want my job to be only useful for it's 2 hr.... I mean I'm glad i could say that tho cause as a summoner i def can not say that with confidence.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Ultima For SCH would be dumb as hell... Just saying, that is and always was and will be a blm spell and should stay that way.

As for buffing Tabula Rasa, I like it now I don't see why they gotta add more to it.

Really SE I don't want my job to be only useful for it's 2 hr.... I mean I'm glad i could say that tho cause as a summoner i def can not say that with confidence.

In old games maybe. It's been made as clear as day BLM is the Masters of Elemental Magic in this game, Ultima is NOT now nor has it ever been Elemental. It's been one of two things Light Based (WHM) or Non-Elemental (SCH).

[Merton9999]

This argument over Ultima always crops up and ends up in a scrutinized checklist of exactly who could cast it and what element it was in every FF. The only thing that stands out it is that it is treated differently in every one of them to the point that every mage main could make an objective case that it "should' be theirs, and in the end it doesn't even matter.

As far as my preference, the only thing that wouldn't surprise me is if SE gave it to WHM like everything else. The only thing that would please me is if it went to SCH. And again I say that as someone who plays WHM BLM SCH all a lot. From my perspective WHM and BLM just already have enough for me now, and enough in terms of future hints of mega spells. Comet now and Meteor later. Holy II and Arise later. Kaustra now and Ultima later. Makes sense to me.

I agree I could give a fig about Tabula Rasa being adjusted anymore, save for the adjustments currently being tested. I love its current performance and utility, and am very much looking forward to the removal of arts timers.

[hideka]

Ultima For SCH would be dumb as hell... Just saying, that is and always was and will be a blm spell and should stay that way.

As for buffing Tabula Rasa, I like it now I don't see why they gotta add more to it.

Really SE I don't want my job to be only useful for it's 2 hr.... I mean I'm glad i could say that tho cause as a summoner i def can not say that with confidence.

annnnndddd HOW MANY games was scholar actualy a caster in? i can only think of one game where scholar was ever even used and that was FF3, and its only ability was Peep and scan >_> and it was a horrible class with no magic (the DS version was more akin to FF11's scholar, because it was modeled after it, due to the origonal SCH in the NES FF3 being so god awful).

whos to say sch wont get ultima and black mage wont get it too? whos to say SE wont give SCH access to comet? whos to say SE wont make sch destroy BLMS in DD? nobody. only the SE devs know what is going to happen. the only way to ever know what is going on in their heads is to snort a 30 foot line of cocaine in one shot ( which i might add is a requirement to be a member on the original FF11 dev team :P)

and Abyssea Killed Astral flows usefullness outside of Alexander rape btw :P

[Pebe]

In my opinion. Ultima has always been the end all, be all, non-elemental damage spell. If they implement for a job, I highly highly HIGHLY doubt they will make it easy to obtain. I'm going to shoot myself for saying this, but seeing Ultima on lvl 99 Tupsimati or Laevateiin wouldn't surprise me in the least. The only way to not have to nerf Ultima to hell, thus ruining the idea of the ultimate spell, would be to make it extremely hard to get.

Or option two: Restrict its usage like blue mage NM spells via a job ability. 10 minute timer? 20 minute timer?

The only reason i suggest such restrictions is because when, or if, I ever cast Ultima, I don't want the people around me to be like "Oh, look he casted ultima, that was a cool animation....", I want it to be "O.O wtf was that, that monster just got anhilated!". And knowing SE, they wouldn't implement this spell with the power i want behind it without restrictions.

[Merton9999]

In my opinion. Ultima has always been the end all, be all, non-elemental damage spell. If they implement for a job, I highly highly HIGHLY doubt they will make it easy to obtain. I'm going to shoot myself for saying this, but seeing Ultima on lvl 99 Tupsimati or Laevateiin wouldn't surprise me in the least. The only way to not have to nerf Ultima to hell, thus ruining the idea of the ultimate spell, would be to make it extremely hard to get.

Or option two: Restrict its usage like blue mage NM spells via a job ability. 10 minute timer? 20 minute timer?

The only reason i suggest such restrictions is because when, or if, I ever cast Ultima, I don't want the people around me to be like "Oh, look he casted ultima, that was a cool animation....", I want it to be "O.O wtf was that, that monster just got anhilated!". And knowing SE, they wouldn't implement this spell with the power i want behind it without restrictions.

I would have completely agreed with this had the spell been introduced when Impact was, or earlier. My opinion these days is more of a winding down, where we just get to do all the big amazing stuff as a last hurrah or finale of sorts. That doesn't mean I want it to be Kaustra/Embrava easy to obtain though. Something along the lines of Impact's requirements or the price of current BLM scrolls seems reasonable - not instantly available to everyone but something everyone can do with a little work. I do want to put some effort into obtaining the Ultima(te) spell, but at this stage I don't have the interest for that effort to be of "mythic" proportions.

[Zhronne]

So appearently from 96 to 99 we're getting:

1) Regen V (SCH only)
2) Aspir II
3) They changed "something" on Animus Augeo and Animus Minuo (wonder what?)

They might have changed just something in the text/translation of the scroll items as far as I know, but what I'm hoping for is that they changed the effects. At the moment they're almost useless, making so they work in a different way and stack beyond -/+enmity gear cap would be a good starting point.

Also hope at level 99 we're getting either 1 more stratagem charge or a reduction in the stratagems recharge, or even both >_> lol

[Merton9999]

So appearently from 96 to 99 we're getting:

1) Regen V (SCH only)
2) Aspir II
3) They changed "something" on Animus Augeo and Animus Minuo (wonder what?)

They might have changed just something in the text/translation of the scroll items as far as I know, but what I'm hoping for is that they changed the effects. At the moment they're almost useless, making so they work in a different way and stack beyond -/+enmity gear cap would be a good starting point.

Also hope at level 99 we're getting either 1 more stratagem charge or a reduction in the stratagems recharge, or even both >_> lol

Is this from a JP post, the tester server or where? I'd assume the same resource that would list Aspir II would also list Thunder V? No other spells mentioned?

lol@ Aspir II. Somehow SE still thinks SCH needs more MP and nothing interesting to use it on. It's about as exciting as Raise III. If Regen V and "something" with animus is all SCH has to look forward to in a stretch of levels that includes Meteor and Arise, let's just say the "Great Insult of SCH 75-99 Saga" would be complete.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Is this from a JP post, the tester server or where? I'd assume the same resource that would list Aspir II would also list Thunder V? No other spells mentioned?

lol@ Aspir II. Somehow SE still thinks SCH needs more MP and nothing interesting to use it on. It's about as exciting as Raise III. If Regen V and "something" with animus is all SCH has to look forward to in a stretch of levels that includes Meteor and Arise, let's just say the "Great Insult of SCH 75-99 Saga" would be complete.

It was in the Test Server .dat's. Thunder V is lvl. 99 for SCH (http://www.juliandev.com/nov11test)

I don't think these are all the spells coming for the jobs. They've only really uploaded the ones they've already mentioned.

If it is: Wow, they're really kicking SCH and RDM again with what's to come at 99.

[Zhronne]

It's a datamine from the test server file upgrades. Haven't seen T5 for SCH there, either 1) we're not getting it, 2) update is not complete.
If I recall back at 75 we didn't have T4 under dark arts/addendum:black, did we?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's a datamine from the test server file upgrades. Haven't seen T5 for SCH there, either 1) we're not getting it, 2) update is not complete.
If I recall back at 75 we didn't have T4 under dark arts/addendum:black, did we?

http://www.juliandev.com/nov11test/allMagic.txt

If you look here it's already in there, just wasn't posted in the other .txt file

[Merton9999]

It's a datamine from the test server file upgrades. Haven't seen T5 for SCH there, either 1) we're not getting it, 2) update is not complete.
If I recall back at 75 we didn't have T4 under dark arts/addendum:black, did we?

Yeah SCH had access to Thunder IV at 75. I remember thinking it funny that SE was cramming all of them in for SCH to 75 to the point that we ended up learning Thunder IV at the same level BLM did.


I don't think these are all the spells coming for the jobs. They've only really uploaded the ones they've already mentioned.

If it is: Wow, they're really kicking SCH and RDM again with what's to come at 99.

No doubt they are if it's true. Did I count THIRTEEN BLU spell place holders? The RDM in me is dying with laughter (or something like that) at Gravity II being SE's response to all the suggestions for enfeebling on the RDM board. It's like SCH's asking for more Light Arts prowess and getting Reraise III.

I see Regen V is still listed at 6 seconds casting time. It might as well be 60.

One thing is keeping me positive though. Back when Curaga V, Temper, Embrava and Comet showed up in one of these test server .dat mines I don't think Kaustra was in there. Here's hoping there are some surprises. I really hope I didn't hold out for 2 years for Regen V. Talk about anti-climactic :(

[Sasaraixx]

Happy Turkey Day everyone :)

I noticed some SCH notes from the team on the JP forum and thought I'd post a brief summary. I hope Camate is somewhere enjoying a nice meal and not translating for us :)

Currently they are examining greatly reducing the casting time of Regen spells. This change will not be SCH only. Other items to be confirmed on the test server include changing Regen III to lv 59, SCH exclusive Regen V and the Light Arts bonuses to Regen V.

After that, they will look at the MND and Healing Skill changes to Cure spells to increase the current amount cured and also allow SCH's to cast Regen on members outside of the party.

I'm not at all angry that the team is spending time on these spells. They changes are great. I just wish they would also pay attention to the other SCH specific spells and start thinking of some unique or new enhancing magic/bonus effects to go along with them.

[Glacont]

Happy Turkey Day everyone :)

I noticed some SCH notes from the team on the JP forum and thought I'd post a brief summary. I hope Camate is somewhere enjoying a nice meal and not translating for us :)

Currently they are examining greatly reducing the casting time of Regen spells. This change will not be SCH only. Other items to be confirmed on the test server include changing Regen III to lv 59, SCH exclusive Regen V and the Light Arts bonuses to Regen V.

After that, they will look at the MND and Healing Skill changes to Cure spells to increase the current amount cured and also allow SCH's to cast Regen on members outside of the party.

I'm not at all angry that the team is spending time on these spells. They changes are great. I just wish they would also pay attention to the other SCH specific spells and start thinking of some unique or new enhancing magic/bonus effects to go along with them.

I agree with your assesments. I have been thinking of one new thing they can add that may aid the Scholar in the Healing Department. A White Mage when casting cure, under influence of Afflatus Solace, gives the target the status of Stoneskin. Under the same token, a Scholar whom cast cure, within the boundaries of Light Arts, to the presepctive target he or she receives the effect of Phalanx I. What are Your thoughts?

[Sasaraixx]

I agree with your assesments. I have been thinking of one new thing they can add that may aid the Scholar in the Healing Department. A White Mage when casting cure, under influence of Afflatus Solace, gives the target the status of Stoneskin. Under the same token, a Scholar whom cast cure, within the boundaries of Light Arts, to the presepctive target he or she receives the effect of Phalanx I. What are Your thoughts?

I agree that we certainly need something additional to make us attractive to a party. We would make a fantastic back-up healer, if that role were ever really needed on a regular basis.

I could also see a bonus given to Regen spells based on the weather the target is receiving or some additional bonus from Light Arts like Phalanx. I've also suggested a new Klimaform type spell that grants a bonus based on the weather. Tacking these bonuses onto either Regen would make our healing and enhancing more attractive at the same time.

That coupled with some changes to our existing SCH only spells and I would be content. Sadly, I'm starting to lose hope though :/

[Zhronne]

Was about to post those notes from the JP forums a few days ago but then forgot.
They already reduced the cast time of Regen spells for all classes.
Regen V is 2.5 seconds, Regen 1 is like 1 second cast time?

Also, Regen V in light arts lasts around 132 seconds (330 with AF3+2 Perpetuance) and heals for roughly 69 hp/tic. Forgot to check if they updated AF3+2 head to work with Regen V as well. Supposedly should add 5?
Regen V during Tabula Rasa heals for roughly 80hp/tic.

[Merton9999]

Yay for the casting time adjustment. A dispel resistance, at least under perpetuance, is all I'd need to deem the regen changes useful now. They can make whatever adjustments they want to enhancing and enfeebling potency but if they can never remain on the target or hit in the first place, adjustments will never bring us out of "big damage, big cures" boring end game battles. I'm still waiting for the mobs with the zombie auras. Sadly what I see from the test server is more new NMs with Endispel, lol.