Thoughts on the FFXI Job Adjustment Manifesto

[SpankWustler]

I'm glad to hear the guy who designed Adloquium is still hard at work on Scholar spells and abilities. This is because I suspect he would have a lot of trouble finding other work given his crippling fear of large numbers and the hatred for all mankind that he expresses in his work, but I'm still happy for him.

Embrava is better than I expected in regards to Haste, and as mediocre as expected in all other regards. I love that it's exactly one more HP a tick than an optimal Regen IV. It lets you sit in for a Bard during a zerg, so I suppose that's something.

[Ank]

Did a quick test before bed, dunno about kaustra - damage doesn't seem too impressive but main thing I noticed was I didn't see any slip damage on 2 out of 3 casts. Glitch, added effect chance, or inattentiveness I suppose.

For embrava I got something like 39/tick regen 4/tick regain, didn't test haste but this thread

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/24945/kaustraembrava/1/

seems to claim ~16% haste, so I don't know who's right about that at the moment.

Happier with blizzard v than kaustra right now.

[Eric]

It's definitely 30% haste. I only posted a few screenshots, but i asked several scholars, and I did several (naked) tests involving reraise III, and whacking flamingos with a staff. The real question is whether or not it counts towards the magic haste cap.

[SpankWustler]

If it depends on maximum MP as some tests have implied, maybe the lower maximum MP the Scholar in the FFXIAH tests possessed due to being weakened affects the potency of the Haste?

30% is a huge number, effectively what Bard can provide with Soul Voice, so I think it's a safe assumption that Embrava will be subject to the magic haste cap. It will be very cool if it's not, but I'd be shocked.

[Eric]

If it depends on maximum MP as some tests have implied, maybe the lower MP due to being weakened affects the potency of the Haste?

30% is a huge number, effectively what Bard can provide with Soul Voice, so I think it's a safe assumption that Embrava will be subject to the magic haste cap. It will be very cool if it's not, but I'd be shocked.

Oh no no. I didn't mean that I used Reraise III because I died. I meant that I used it because it's a long-recast spell that I can cast repeatedly without much trouble. I compared the recast times with and without embrava to help determine the amount of haste it gives. That combined with the weapon delay testing I did is what led me to agree with everyone else in saying that it's 30% haste.

Also, there's a big possibility that MP may have an impact on embrava's potency, because I've seen varying numbers for the HP regen.

[SpankWustler]

Oh no no. I didn't mean that I used Reraise III because I died. I meant that I used it because it's a long-recast spell that I can cast repeatedly without much trouble. I compared the recast times with and without embrava to help determine the amount of haste it gives. That combined with the weapon delay testing I did is what led me to agree with everyone else in saying that it's 30% haste.

Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the FFXIAH tests that were done using Reraise III while weakened (and resulted in 15~16% Haste), but I was half-asleep and didn't specify that.

[Ank]

After some reraise casting I agree with the ~30% haste, though I got two different recasts (43 seconds and 48 seconds) so not sure where the variance comes in. Also it definitely stacks with haste spell (35 second recast)

[Camate]

Here are a couple of things related to Kaustra that you all have been quickly trying out on the test server.

• Kaustra’s DoT effect is not activating
This was listed in the confirmed bugs on the test server, but we confirmed that if Kaustra is used on an unclaimed monster (yellow name), a problem occurs where the damage over time will not activate. We are planning to fix this.

Make sure that when you change your level or jobs via the =TEST= Moogle GM in your mog house that you check to make sure your skill levels are raised.

When job changing via the Moogle GM, depending on the job combination you select, there are cases where the maximum skill will not be set properly.*

*Specifically, when the job your are changing into does not have the same skills as the previous job, the skill value will not be set properly.

Since Kaustra’s damage over time effect duration depends on your dark magic skill, if it is zero it will deal no damage over time.

In order to avoid any confusion, when job changing at the Moogle GM please make sure to reset your level once again. This will ensure that your job has the maximum skill values (blue numbers).

• Kaustra isn’t dealing damage
Kaustra was designed with the idea that it deals initial damage plus damage over time, but for the initial damage, INT plays more of a role as a damage modifier than magic attack bonus, making the spell stronger.

If you feel like that initial hit isn’t dealing much damage, make sure to check your equipment. As stated above, don’t forget to check you dark magic skill!

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Here are a couple of things related to Klaustra that you all have been quickly trying out on the test server.

• Klaustra’s DoT effect is not activating
This was listed in the confirmed bugs on the test server, but we confirmed that if Klaustra is used on an unclaimed monster (yellow name), a problem occurs where the damage over time will not activate. We are planning to fix this.

Make sure that when you change your level or jobs via the =TEST= Moogle GM in your mog house that you check to make sure your skill levels are raised.

When job changing via the Moogle GM, depending on the job combination you select, there are cases where the maximum skill will not be set properly.*

*Specifically, when the job your are changing into does not have the same skills as the previous job, the skill value will not be set properly.

Since Klaustra’s damage over time effect duration depends on your dark magic skill, if it is zero it will deal no damage over time.

In order to avoid any confusion, when job changing at the Moogle GM please make sure to reset your level once again. This will ensure that your job has the maximum skill values (blue numbers).

• Klaustra isn’t dealing damage
Klaustra was designed with the idea that it deals initial damage plus damage over time, but for the initial damage, INT plays more of a role as a damage modifier than magic attack bonus, making the spell stronger.

If you feel like that initial hit isn’t dealing much damage, make sure to check your equipment. As stated above, don’t forget to check you dark magic skill!

What about Klimaform as it's an AF(weapon/spell) will it be blocked from sub-jobbing /sch as in the test server it is not currently.

[Sotek]

Since Klaustra’s damage over time effect duration depends on your dark magic skill, if it is zero it will deal no damage over time.

Two things:
1) Is there a cap on the number of tics for Klaustra or are we free to just stack a godly amount of dark magic skill for better results?
2) When do the devs plan on adjusting Helices to have a number of tics based on elemental magic skill? Honestly, a toss up between stacking INT and skill is a really attractive idea, considering skill is a complete joke in this day and age. Would effectively hush any complaints at a lack of tII Helices post 75, too. Throw that at the Healing Helix idea and for once in this game healing magic skill isn't completely worthless.

Also, did anyone check to see if base Sublimation is 2HP -> 8MP at Lv.95 yet?

[Ank]

Thanks Camate! Considering that, did a quick one shot kaustra in sea on an ul'aern, 881 damage with weather, obi, twilight cape, plutos, mostly int gear, dark neck.

Did about 24% hp damage, damage from dot took the 76% remaining, didn't think to time it.

[Ank]

Also, did anyone check to see if base Sublimation is 2HP -> 8MP at Lv.95 yet?

Easiest way to test that?

Based on charging time I'd say yes? 2minutes 34 seconds @90, 2 minutes 19 seconds @95

[Fredjan]

I did a couple tests with Sublimation at 95 using no gear.

Starting HP: 1338
First use: Had 1316 HP after, MP restored: 96.
Second use: 1316 -> 1296 HP, MP restored: 88.

It appears to have indeed reached a new tier.

[Eric]

This puts sublimation on a level higher than refresh 2. If you have a max HP of ~1100 and have sublimation merits(since nothing else is really worth it at this point), you will regain about 325 mp per 2:30(it takes 2 minutes for sublimation to charge, 30 seconds before you can use it again). That's 25 more mp than refresh II when cast on you, and 85 more mp than when a RDM casts refresh II on themselves. When compared to composure refresh II it also gives 75 more mp than when a rdm casts it on you, and 155 more mp than a rdm casting it on themselves. All of this math doesn't take into account sublimation+ gear.

I have class right now, so I can't really double check my work, but if sublimation was upgraded from 7 to 8, it's just another thing to look forward to with this update.

[Camate]

Don't know why I added an "L" to Kaustra...fixed. My bad.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This puts sublimation on a level higher than refresh 2. If you have a max HP of ~1100 and have sublimation merits(since nothing else is really worth it at this point), you will regain about 325 mp per 2:30(it takes 2 minutes for sublimation to charge, 30 seconds before you can use it again). That's 25 more mp than refresh II when cast on you, and 85 more mp than when a RDM casts refresh II on themselves. When compared to composure refresh II it also gives 75 more mp than when a rdm casts it on you, and 155 more mp than a rdm casting it on themselves. All of this math doesn't take into account sublimation+ gear.

I have class right now, so I can't really double check my work, but if sublimation was upgraded from 7 to 8, it's just another thing to look forward to with this update.

Only downside.... It's not instant like Refresh II.

[Eric]

It's a double-edged sword, because with Refresh, if you have full MP, it's just going to waste, but sublimation can hold that extra MP until you need it. On the other hand, with sublimation if you really need MP, but it's not completely charged, you're also wasting MP(by stopping its effects for the 30 seconds until you can reuse the ability).

[Karbuncle]

Don't know why I added an "L" to Kaustra...fixed. My bad.

Kaustra
Claustrum.

KLAUSTRA(m)

Thats my guess.

[Camate]

Kaustra
Claustrum.

KLAUSTRA(m)

Thats my guess.

Haha, yeh I think that's actually it. Derp :/

[Crossarius]

I ran a test myself on sublimation and came to the same conclusion of a new tier@level 95. I had the same 88 MP return after the initial 30 seconds until the recast is back at 0.
In my idle gear it caps at 350ish for me (Taru + Sublimation Merits) and takes about 1 minute and 33 to 36 seconds to be fully charged fulltiming AF Hat, Relic Body and Savant's Earring.

With four pieces with an enhancing effect for sublimation we can reach a 6hp/tick = 12mp/tick @95.

[Karbuncle]

Haha, yeh I think that's actually it. Derp :/

Its the first connection i made :X

Great minds think alike!

[Ophannus]

Looks like Sublimation is 8MP per tick now, after a 30 second charge and 22 HP loss I got 88 HP from Sublimation, that's pretty amazing and makes it better than Refresh II(60MP in 30 seconds), not even counting Sublimation gear.

[Lordscyon]

Sotek that is a nice pic frame ^^ & great ideas that gives bonus too players instead of nerfs i support!

[Dragoy]

Great minds think alike!
And fools rarely differ!
Sorry... couldn't resist. ^^;


On another note... I do wish they had gone with Merton, really. Would have been a nice 'touch'.

[brayen]

Enbrave or whatever is enhanced by enhancing? is this true? I read it somewhere as a theory but i since lost where i had read that. Has anyone done testing? could give reason as to why i keep seeing different haste values for it.

[Melraen]

Hi people, haven't really posted before, usually just read. XD Anyways, wondering if anyone else has had Kaustra completely resisted by a monster? Something along the lines of "<target> resists(or resisted) Kaustra." Happened to me when I tried it on the magic pot enemies in Ru'Aun Gardens yesterday... Didn't cause any damage at all that time. ; ;

[Rambus]

Two things:
1) Is there a cap on the number of tics for Klaustra or are we free to just stack a godly amount of dark magic skill for better results?
2) When do the devs plan on adjusting Helices to have a number of tics based on elemental magic skill? Honestly, a toss up between stacking INT and skill is a really attractive idea, considering skill is a complete joke in this day and age. Would effectively hush any complaints at a lack of tII Helices post 75, too. Throw that at the Healing Helix idea and for once in this game healing magic skill isn't completely worthless.

Also, did anyone check to see if base Sublimation is 2HP -> 8MP at Lv.95 yet?

Like to quote this since it seems it has been missed talking about how to spell a name of a spell.

Like to quote this since it seems it has been missed talking about how to spell a name of a spell.

I like to add we need better spell progress, why are jobs getting to sub our weather spells and we are stuck on the same spell as a main? Make all level 1 weather spells subable and make weather II spells? Game needs better spell progress then it has. I made a lot of posts explaining why but here I will keep on the SCH subject.

Why are we stuck on same cure spells off sub too? Why is healing magic, elemental magic, and divine skill at this point so useless?

Bit off subject but it can go with how enhancing magic skill is hell right now. How come skill up gains does not match level progress? It is still too slow. When we leveled slower in 2003-2005 it was easy to keep capped doing your job, why is it different now? Cluttering inventory with food and gear for faster skill ups is not a fix.

I have 19 jobs at 90 and did lots of events, EXP doing nothing for 5 or so months now 20/20 9999 limit points and I am still not capped in a lot of skills. That did not happen back in 2005

[Ahrana]

Hi people, haven't really posted before, usually just read. XD Anyways, wondering if anyone else has had Kaustra completely resisted by a monster? Something along the lines of "<target> resists(or resisted) Kaustra." Happened to me when I tried it on the magic pot enemies in Ru'Aun Gardens yesterday... Didn't cause any damage at all that time. ; ;

Pots do that move that prevents all magic damage, something like "magic barrier." I would bet that's what happened, because magic damage usually isn't totally resisted, just reduced.

[Melraen]

Pots do that move that prevents all magic damage, something like "magic barrier." I would bet that's what happened, because magic damage usually isn't totally resisted, just reduced.

Oooooh, wow... Obviously I haven't fought them often enough! /blush Feeling kinda silly now! Thanks for clearing that up! ^^

[zell_]

kaustra durations: no arts up 1:39.45(give or take a second or two); 310 dark skill; 1026 initial damage; 244 int

dark arts up 2:00.63(this one was pretty spot on); 410 skill; 974 initial; 224 int

looks like skill would be the better option on mobs with higher hp if you are trying to counteract a regen trait or just kill it quicker.

skill set consisted of af1 body, af+1 legs, dark torque and merciful cape.

[zell_]

blizzard > nocto = compression + mb kaustra does work. kaustra and helix do stack, helix wearing before kaustra effect.

skillchain mb took maybe 10% or a little more of marvins hp.

helix wore at about 30% of his hp. and kaustra took him down to about 10-15% hp. quite impressive if you ask me.

level one skillchains are the way to go in terms of efficiency.

screenshot shows helix wearing before kaustra effect to verify that they do stack:kaustra and helix stack (http://s1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/zell_/?action=view&current=kaustra.png)

id also like to note that kaustra dmg is determined by int and duration is determined by dark magic skill.

"Here are a couple of things related to Kaustra that you all have been quickly trying out on the test server.

• Kaustra’s DoT effect is not activating
This was listed in the confirmed bugs on the test server, but we confirmed that if Kaustra is used on an unclaimed monster (yellow name), a problem occurs where the damage over time will not activate. We are planning to fix this.

Make sure that when you change your level or jobs via the =TEST= Moogle GM in your mog house that you check to make sure your skill levels are raised.

When job changing via the Moogle GM, depending on the job combination you select, there are cases where the maximum skill will not be set properly.*

*Specifically, when the job your are changing into does not have the same skills as the previous job, the skill value will not be set properly.

Since Kaustra’s damage over time effect duration depends on your dark magic skill, if it is zero it will deal no damage over time.

In order to avoid any confusion, when job changing at the Moogle GM please make sure to reset your level once again. This will ensure that your job has the maximum skill values (blue numbers).

• Kaustra isn’t dealing damage
Kaustra was designed with the idea that it deals initial damage plus damage over time, but for the initial damage, INT plays more of a role as a damage modifier than magic attack bonus, making the spell stronger.

If you feel like that initial hit isn’t dealing much damage, make sure to check your equipment. As stated above, don’t forget to check you dark magic skill!"

once again, very interesting stuff here. ill edit my post later to test duration with varying skill levels. and i guess i can do initial damage too, but if there is anyone else out there on the servers, feel free to test it also.

[Sotek]

Was it really necessary to repost information that was posted just three pages ago?


level one skillchains are the way to go in terms of efficiency.

Aero V > Noctohelix = Gravitation seems like a better option to me.
Though if Blizzard Vs cast time isn't an issue (I don't like to assume) I suppose it would win out in terms of raw damage.

[zell_]

yea that one works too. just as long as the second spell in the chain and magic burst spell are of the same element so we can have the skillchain and the burst benefit from the weather we are wearing. at that point, i believe that is maximum efficiency. there are many combos that do work.

[Pebe]

Ok I did some Kaustra testing today to test out the effect of int:

-None of these test were done on Darksday
-None of these test used kilmaform, voidstorm, or Ebullience unless stated
-Only parsimony and alacrity were used unless stated otherwise
-Each test was done twice on two different lvl 0 mob types(mandies and bees) in Sarutabaruta to ensure consistancy.
-Crap I forgot to take note of my dark magic skill geared, however no dark magic skill geared was used unless noted. So dark magic skill = lvl 95 SCH with dark arts up. No dark magic skill merits. I believe it was around 376, in my dark skill test coming later I was wearing af3+1 body, relic legs and the aesir torque and had 405 skill, so working backwards that should put me at 376.

Job: 95 SCH/BLM
Race = Tarutartu
Base Int = 106 (8 int merits)

Test 1 - No gear
Kaustra Damage - 543

Test 2 - No gear - Voidstorm (3 int stormsurge)
Kaustra Damage - 548

Test 3 - Anrin Obi - Voidstorm(3 int stormsurge)
Kausta Damage - 602

Conclusion so far - Unlike helixes, Kaustra does not automatically gain the storm bonus without obi.

Test 4 - 7 int(Icesoul Ring)
Total Int = 106 +7 = 113
Kaustra Damage = 564

Test 5 - 10 int(Icesoul Ring + snow pearl)
Total Int = 116
Kaustra Damage = 575

Test 6 = 17 int (Icesoul ring x2 + snow pearl)
Total Int = 123
Kaustra Damage = 601

Test 7 = 20 int (Ring x2 + snow pearl x2)
Total Int = 126
Kaustra Damage = 612

Test 8 = Full int gear, 0 MAB in gear, no staff
Total Int = 183
Kaustra Damage = 829

Test 9 = Full geared (please refer to full gear set at end of this post)
Total Int = 155, Total MAB = 39 from gear, No klimaform or Ebullience yet
Twilight Cape, obi, weather
Kaustra Damage = 1242

Test 10 - Same as above + klimaform and ebullience
Total int = 150 (Dropped 5 from hat change for ebullience), Total mab from gear = 39
Kaustra damage = 1734

Test 11 - Remove all gear and replace with dark magic skill gear, no buffs
Total int = 106+8, Dark magic skill = 405 (wearing af1+1 body, relic legs and aesir neckpiece)
Kaustra Damage = 570

Conclusion from test 11 - dark magic skill probably does not increase damage. If it does, it is not noticeable at all.

Test 12 - no gear. no buffs, 3 monsters, Manifestation
Base int = 106, 0 mab
Kaustra Damage on all 3 mobs = 406

Test 13 - no gear, no buffs, 10 monsters, manifestation
Base int = 106, 0 mab
Kaustra damage on 9/10 mobs = 217
1 mob half resisted me for around 108

Edit: I posted post so it wouldn't accidently get deleted halfway through and I'd have to rewrite everything, here is the rest of it.

Full gear set for test 9 and 10:
Pluto's Staff (Don't laugh >.>)
Elemental Grip (Don't laugh >.>)
Witchstone
Scholar mortarboard +1 (Changed to Savant's Bonnet +2 for test 10)
Savant's Chain
Novio earring
Hecates earring
Savants Gown +2
Vicious mufflers
Iceosul ring
Strendu Ring
Twilight Cape
Anrin Obi
Cybele Pants (Is this the right spelling? the 10 int ones from smok)
Savant's feet +2

So this is all i was able to get for now/think of recording. If you want more data for calculations let me know.

Edit 2 for comparison:
Did a Blizzard V in the same full gear set, switching to aquilo's staff and hyorin obi and hail storm.
With klimaform and ebullience Blizzard V did 3699.
Cryohelix did 479.

[zell_]

Test 11 - Remove all gear and replace with dark magic skill gear, no buffs
Total int = 106+8, Dark magic skill = 405 (wearing af1+1 body, relic legs and aesir neckpiece)
Kaustra Damage = 570

Conclusion from test 11 - dark magic skill probably does not increase damage. If it does, it is not noticeable at all.



skill will only effect duration of the spell. tested it in an earlier post.

[Raksha]

Base Int = 106 (8 int merits)


I hate you.

/jelly

[TimeMage]

Ok I did some Kaustra testing today to test out the effect of int:


Excellent tests, thanks. Can you test next time if maximum MP affects it? Considering it always consumes 30% of the maximum, it isn't unreasonable to think that the more MP spent, the better the effect. 2-3 tests with different MP totals with the same INT would suffice, I guess.

[Pebe]

I can say with confidence mp doesn't affect it. I parsimony/alacrity Kaustra'd about 6 times per 2hr (yes this is possible, it's recast is extremely low with alacrity), i started at around 1100 mp and ended with about 300 mp. The results remained un changed. Actually now that you mention it, i forgot to post that before I did all this testing I did a few kaustra's in a row in 1 2hr just to make sure the damage was consistant and to see how many kaustras i could get off.

[Pebe]

The next thing I plan to test when i get around to it is kaustra's skillchain property, if it has one, I'm hoping that it is gravitation and not compression. Darkness skillchain via magic, yes please! Might be able to pull a magic burst to the skillchain as well since kaustra's recast is so low with alacrity. Although would probably need haste and fast gear to precast it in to lower that recast a little bit more. It might just be possible since Kaustra's animation takes forever and a day and there is a delay before the darkness skillchain appears.

[TimeMage]

I actually mean that the base MP cost can affect it. Parsimony cuts the MP consumption, but the base cost remains the same. I don't know if max MP will affect it, of course, but I think it isn't a ridiculous idea, either.

[Merton9999]

I actually mean that the base MP cost can affect it. Parsimony cuts the MP consumption, but the base cost remains the same. I don't know if max MP will affect it, of course, but I think it isn't a ridiculous idea, either.

I wouldn't be surprised if MP affected it either but I'm really hoping it won't. Um...

Mordru starts casting Voidstorm on Mordru
Mordru uses a Lucid Ether III
Mordru uses Dark Arts
Mordry uses Parsimony
Mordru uses Alacrity
Mordru uses Ebullience
Mordru uses Manifestation
Mordru uses Tabula Rasa
Mordru starts casting Kaustra on the Akrab
Mordru hits 3 more macros to equip bonnet, obi, and INT or dark gear depending on whether I want large initial damage or more ticks.

Meanwhile the BLM has already killed all the mobs with Blizzaja.

Take the Lucid Ether III part out and we're a little more balanced.

Seriously, with all the reigns on this 2-hour only spell already, that doesn't even seem that impressive numerically, having the damage gimped by lower MP would make me insane. They can't even decide what to call Merton/Kaustra/Klaustra/Kamasutra yet, please not another roadblock.

[Eric]

The next thing I plan to test when i get around to it is kaustra's skillchain property, if it has one, I'm hoping that it is gravitation and not compression. Darkness skillchain via magic, yes please! Might be able to pull a magic burst to the skillchain as well since kaustra's recast is so low with alacrity. Although would probably need haste and fast gear to precast it in to lower that recast a little bit more. It might just be possible since Kaustra's animation takes forever and a day and there is a delay before the darkness skillchain appears.It doesn't work with Immanence. Look at my post a while back. It's under Edit #4. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11525-Thoughts-on-the-FFXI-Job-Adjustment-Manifesto?p=182771&viewfull=1#post182771

[Sotek]

I wouldn't be surprised if MP affected it either but I'm really hoping it won't. Um...

Mordru starts casting Voidstorm on Mordru
Mordru uses a Lucid Ether III
Mordru uses Dark Arts
Mordry uses Parsimony
Mordru uses Alacrity
Mordru uses Ebullience
Mordru uses Manifestation
Mordru uses Tabula Rasa
Mordru starts casting Kaustra on the Akrab
Mordru hits 3 more macros to equip bonnet, obi, and INT or dark gear depending on whether I want large initial damage or more ticks.

Meanwhile the BLM has already killed all the mobs with Blizzaja.

Take the Lucid Ether III part out and we're a little more balanced.

Seriously, with all the reigns on this 2-hour only spell already, that doesn't even seem that impressive numerically, having the damage gimped by lower MP would make me insane. They can't even decide what to call Merton/Kaustra/Klaustra/Kamasutra yet, please not another roadblock.

Damage would be based off the spells MP cost which is 30% of your maximum MP. Casting with 400MP when you have 1000MP should be exactly the same as casting with 1000MP. Casting with 400MP when your max is 1100MP should do more than casting with 1000MP when your max is 1000MP. As far as I know no one has tested this by stacking MP gear (Pluviale springs to mind).
I'm not going to dig it up, but I saw someone post that Embravas Regen/Regain/Haste was based off maximum MP and Enhancing skill, it doesn't seem too unlikely Kaustra would be the same assuming that source is correct.

[Pebe]

Ty Eric, Sorry I missed that. Kind of sucks though Q.Q

And sorry I was misunderstanding what you meant by maximum mp. I'll try to test it out if no ones beats me to it :P But, my crysta billed today and i don't know if there is money in my account >.>. And whether or not that will restrict me on the test server, time to find out!

Edit: If max mp does affect it, that would explain why i can't do as much damage as that dang sch in the video, and also why we was nuking in hvergelmir. I know the could have just tweak the damage for video purposes, but you never know! As soon as this dang update finishes i'll see what i can find out.

[TimeMage]

Damage would be based off the spells MP cost which is 30% of your maximum MP. Casting with 400MP when you have 1000MP should be exactly the same as casting with 1000MP. Casting with 400MP when your max is 1100MP should do more than casting with 1000MP when your max is 1000MP. As far as I know no one has tested this by stacking MP gear (Pluviale springs to mind).
I'm not going to dig it up, but I saw someone post that Embravas Regen/Regain/Haste was based off maximum MP and Enhancing skill, it doesn't seem too unlikely Kaustra would be the same assuming that source is correct.

THANK YOU, I though no one understood what I was saying. More max MP = more MP per cast consumed = higher damage???

[Pebe]

ok max mp kaustra testing.

-All tests use alacrity and parsimony unless stated otherwise

LVL 95 SCH/BLM
Base Int = 106
Base MP = 1002
Dark magic skill = 376

Test 1 - Naked
Kaustra = 543

Test 2 - Pluviale
Max mp = 1102
Kaustra = 543

Test 3 - Full MP Gear(I made sure absolutely no stats known to effect kaustra were in this set)
Max mp = 1447
Base Int = 106
Dark magic skill = 376
Kaustra = 543
Note - I wore morgana's choker during this test so I had -5 mind, which was different from usual. Since there was absolutely no change in damage, we can assume that mind does not affect this spell, unless it affects Dot, which I doubt. This is as expected but just a verification.

Test 4 - Same set up as above, but did not use parsiomony. I wanted to test to see if parsimony cutting the mp used in half affected Kaustra's damage. I assumed no from the results of Test 1-3 but just wanted to make sure.
Kaustra - 543

Conclusion: Current MP, MAX MP, Mind, and Parsimony all do not affect Kaustra's initial damage. (Thank God) However, I am unsure if any of these will affect the duration of the DoT along with dark magic skill. That remains to be tested.

Edit: (Just posting test results before gear so it didn't get accidently deleted like what happened to me a few times. My computer likes to go back pages by accident, making me lose everything I was in the middle of posting.)
Full mp gear set:
Savant's Bonnet +2
Pluviale
Vate's Cape (the 22 hp to mp one with -7 enmity)
Serpentes cuffs
Serpentes saboots
Goliard trews (I beleive this is what the pants are called)
Bifrost ring
Dusksoul ring (the one from the moogle)
Gifted Earring (the one from t3 vnm in grauberg)
loq earring
Morgana's Choker

Random thought - I should have done testing with max mp and the distrubution of damage via manifestation as a result of max mp. I doubt it will affect it at all, so I'll only test this if someone thinks it viable or if I'm bored and decide to get around to it :P !

[Pebe]

Btw, Sotek where did you find the post about Embrava and mp? Now I'm curious since Kaustra isn't affected by mp, unless i did something horribly wrong :P

[Raksha]

Btw, Sotek where did you find the post about Embrava and mp? Now I'm curious since Kaustra isn't affected by mp, unless i did something horribly wrong :P

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/24945/kaustraembrava/2/#1518747

[Pebe]

Ty! Btw Raksha, You may be jealous of my sexy taru int, but my jealousy of your signature knows no bounds +.-

[TimeMage]

Thanks a bunch, Pebe, it's clear that max MP doesn't affect it at all. Sooooo, it's INT for damage (MAB will play a factor too, of curse), and Dark magic skill for effect duration.

[Pebe]

Some very incomplete Embrava testing (Did not test haste, focused on regen and regain). I decided to do this test after they said they lowered the requirements to hit tiers of embrava.

-This test tests Enhancing magic skill, Mind, and MP, and thier how they affect Embrava
-All tests use only celerity and penury unless stated otherwise
-Lvl 95 SCH/BLM (warp purposes <.<)

Test 1: No Gear
-Enhancing Magic skill - 376
-Max MP - 1002
-Mind - 77
Embrava - Regen = 54, Regain = 4

Test 2: Enhancing Gear
-Enhancing Magic Skill - 418
-Mind - 92
-Max MP = 1345
Embrava - Regen = 60, Regain = 5

Notes - In this test enhancing,mp, and mind all increase making it very inconclusive. I realized this, but decided to keep it in after the results of my next test. I believe enhancing is what made the increase in embrava here. You'll see why soon.

Abyssea Tests~

Test 3
Enhancing magic - 418
Max Mp - 2057
Mind - 92
Embrava - Regen = 60, Regain = 5

Notes - As you can see from this test, there was about a 700 increase in mp, without an increase in mind or enhancing magic, but no increase in embrava. So it can be concluded that either enhancing or mind made the difference in test 2. What led me to believe that mind plays a role is that when the person who tested in ffxiah said he did test in abyssea he did not specify whether or not he only got mp buffs like i did in this test or other buffs as well. Since mp doesn't seem to play a huge role, I assumed another factor was adding to embrava and that led me to mind. The poster who tested on ffxiah said he also saw an increase when he used a brew. Which led me to believe that it either took a huge amount of mp to see increases or an increase in mind since brew also gives capped mind. (I'm assuming mind since int effects kaustra, it was the first thing that came to mind. Heck, it could even be affected by chr...) Which leads us to test 6! But before that, test 4 and 5 test the affects of penury and rapture on Embrava.

Test 4 - Same as test 3, without the use of penury (Remember all tests use penury and celerity unless otherwise stated)
Embrava - Regen = 60, Regain = 5
Conclusion = Penury doesn't affect Embrava potency. We couldn't rule this out automatically because of test 3 because we are still unsure as to whether or not a really large mp boost does indeed affect embrava. Although, whether it does or not serves no purpose because it is unrealistic to reach those values without a brew.

Test 5 - Only Rapture is used in this test (Didn't have time to penury or celerity, 2hr was wearing off soon! Although, because of test 4, not having penury on shouldn't make a difference)
Embrava - Regain = 5.

Notes = Now I was unable to get the regen values for this one. I forgot to record them before my hp maxed out. 60 hp a tic caps out a mages hp fast >.>. But there was no new tier on regain, so i'm going to say rapture doesn't affect Embrava but I am not sure.

Post Break - I am posting this now to save it, I need to use bathroom! Mind testing will be posted in about 15 mins!

Edit: Here is the rest

Test 6
Enhancing magic - 418
MP = 1345 (just in case, i brought my mp back down)
Mind=202

Embrava:
Regen = 66 (hmmmm......)
Regain = 5 (hmmm.. no change.... -.-)

Notes - this is where things got confusing, you'll see after next test

Test 7 - Aurastorm
-Same as above but with aurastorm
Embrava:
Regen = 63 (hmmm....)
Regain = 5

Ok, now, I'm sure what to make of this. Also i noticed when i clicked off embrava I still had some regen going. Very low, like 1 a tick, now that I think back on it, it was probably my serpentes saboots which I was using for a quick mp set. Very stupid of me to wear them. Although they only give 1 regen so they shouldn't make much difference, the increase should be easy to see. But I'm curious as to why the decreases after i casted aurastorm. These two tests were done under the same 2hr with the same buffs. It is possible that i accidetly recorded the wrong numbers for before and after when calculating the regen on this one. However, for now, I'm going to conclude that mind does not have a huge impact on embrava. I need to redo all these tests using the recast of a spell (probably reraise) so they will be more accurate. Specifically the last two. It is also possible that the three aspects of embrava cap of at different lvls of enhancing and possibly mind. I may just be thinking to much into it. I'm not sure when I'll get around to the recast testing.

[Pebe]

Last two tests added

[Merton9999]

Thanks, Pebe!

This is getting better. 5 Regain is the least I expected from a 2-hour spell in an update where we get no help to healing. 60 Regen isn't too shabby either (or did test 3 really push it to 66?). Meh on it not being a Regen V, castable any time, but kudos to the dev team for at least pumping this up a bit.

A few other questions for you:

1. This seems obvious but just to verify: Penury does reduce the MP cost to 15% of MP, yes?
2. What is the casting time, before Celerity?
3. What is the duration now, without Perpetuance?
4. Is the animation interesting? If it's the Brave spell from the dats it looked kinda boring :(

[Pebe]

1. Didn't check will next time.
2. Didn't check will next time :P
3. Didn't check, will next time XD
4. Ehh it kind of like brave.

Let me go get the answers for your questions now, brb in 5 mins

[Pebe]

Ok sorry it took so long, stupid embrava duration.
-All tests done as lvl 95 SCH/BLM with no gear
-All test done with light arts up ( i wanted to do without but needed to use penury to answer merton's question)

Mp cost with penury = 150/1002 = 14.97%
-This is interesting, it doesn't seem light arts benefit works for Embrava (Spell MP cost -10% i believe it is)

Casting without celerity = 3 seconds
-I want to say give or take .3 seconds because of light arts benefit, but now i'm not sure.

Duration without perpetuance - 5 mins

I wonder if this means the dark arts penalty would not affect these spells either hmmm.. But who would want to cast it in dart arts enhancing skill >.>

[Merton9999]

Ok sorry it took so long, stupid embrava duration.
-All tests done as lvl 95 SCH/BLM with no gear
-All test done with light arts up ( i wanted to do without but needed to use penury to answer merton's question)

Mp cost with penury = 150/1002 = 14.97%
-This is interesting, it doesn't seem light arts benefit works for Embrava (Spell MP cost -10% i believe it is)

Casting without celerity = 3 seconds
-I want to say give or take .3 seconds because of light arts benefit, but now i'm not sure.

Duration without perpetuance - 5 mins

I wonder if this means the dark arts penalty would not affect these spells either hmmm.. But who would want to cast it in dart arts enhancing skill >.>

The 10% LA reduction never applies to Penury - you get the flat 50% reduction (plus the AF3 pants Conserve MP)

3 second casting time is good. What about the recast? 5 minute duration is a great base. Does Perpetuance extend that to 10 minutes, and do AF+2 hands extend it to 12.5?

Thanks again man!

[Pebe]

<< Is not staring at a screen to 10 mins to wait for embrava to wear off, at least not today XD The recast is low I'll get the value for you tomorrow probably, ls event starting soon. Since Accession works, I'm assuming perpetuance works. Will test later when i do the haste test on embrava. Thanks btw for pointing out the bonus doesn't apply with penury, I completely forgot.

Edit: Now i also need to test exactly how much mp is taken with light arts only and not penury.... Whether its 27% or 30%, although it doesn't really matter.

[Eric]

Perpetuance works. I would post some screenshots, but there's really no way to prove it from a screenshot lol.

[Pebe]

Mega edit: I made a mistake, test 4 regen is 60 not 66. My bad.

[TimeMage]

Thanks a lot Bepe for the tests, they're really insightful. Could you test haste next? I'm sure you're doing it or will do soon, but wanted to ask anyway ;)

As for Casting Embrava in Dark Arts, don't worry: You're using your 2HR, so of course skill is B+ in all magic skills. I don't know if you'll get the +15 from AF1 legs, though.

[Sasaraixx]

Thank you for all of the testing Pebe. Those of us not on the test server really do appreciate it. And thanks to all those folks testing and posting feedback, it seems that SE is paying attention.

There was a new post on the JP SCH forum today. They are reducing the MP cost of both Embrava and Merton from 30% to 20%. Tabula Rasa's duration is being extended from 90 seconds to 180 seconds. Embrava will be castable on PC's outside of your party and they slightly increased the damage on Merton it seems.

They're also going to give us the reason for the addition of 2hr spells and they will continue adjusting Tabula Rasa at a later date. There are a lot of other items they want to adjust and going forward they are going to make SCH adjustments a priority.

I say we keep providing our constructive feedback. They are aware that SCH needs some work. If they tweak the right elements we'll be back in business.

I appreciate the Dev team being so open, transparent and willing to quickly make adjustments. The test servers are a great way to facilitate change. We may not always agree with their vision but I do think that they are hearing our concerns.

[Ank]

Sweet, I'm glad you or someone that could read it saw that post - so impatient for info but my google translate fu is poor.
180 seconds, that's really interesting, they've tripled the original duration from 1 minute to 3 - makes me wonder what they're really planning.

[Sotek]

I do hope they're finally going to make Stratagems not wear off when casting under Tabula, though if they're increasing the duration to 180 seconds I highly doubt they will - unless they have plans to increase the duration of Chainspell and Manafont - since that just becomes highly overpowered. Hopefully they do some minor adjustments to it, making Tabula Rasa its own Arts (so it replaces Light/Dark rather than going alongside it) for starters, with full Addendum access and access to all Stratagems. It is fairly annoying to switch Arts during Tabula Rasa, especially with the 60 second recast on them.
I'd still rather have a 60 second duration provided that Stratagems don't wear off above all else though, but I'm not going to complain too much if they're tripling its duration. Still, it's annoying to have to reapply 3~5 Stratagems every spell; then again it is called Blank Slate.

Still, if they're looking for feedback it can't hurt for me to repost everything I've already suggested, again.
We really should have a single thread for feedback, having our suggestions sporadically spread across several threads can't make it easy for whoever has to go through these forums looking for it. Two thread, one for suggestions and one for discussion of suggestions seems like a good idea, though we'd need a moderator to have that work properly. I do have to wonder why SE doesn't just give two or three regulars from each job section demi-mod status and have them relay our suggestions to the actual mods who then take them to development, it would be far more efficient than having three or four mods cover the entire forum.

[Pebe]

3 min tabula Rasa.... So I can cast Kaustra x15 in one 2hr @.@ MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA! On another note, I guess i'll retest Kaustra when that update hits on same mobs to show the difference in max damage. Ty btw for pointing out that you get the skill benefit in both arts when under tabula rasa, you can tell that I didn't use it much :P. I probably won't get around to testing anymore for a little while as I have a lot of school work to do. I think having all stratedgems up for the entire duration of tabula rasa would be as you said, extremely overpowered. I could just go Ebullience >> parsimony >> alacrity >>Focalization >> enmity down one which i forget since its not merited >> manifestation >>> Blizzard V >> Kaustra >> Fire V >> Kaustra >> Blizzard V >> kaustra >> etc
Toss in a sublimation and convert maybe an aspir halfway through and that would just own manafont XD

[Eric]

Thank you for all of the testing Pebe. Those of us not on the test server really do appreciate it. And thanks to all those folks testing and posting feedback, it seems that SE is paying attention.

There was a new post on the JP SCH forum today. They are reducing the MP cost of both Embrava and Merton from 30% to 20%. Tabula Rasa's duration is being extended from 90 seconds to 180 seconds. Embrava will be castable on PC's outside of your party and they slightly increased the damage on Merton it seems.

They're also going to give us the reason for the addition of 2hr spells and they will continue adjusting Tabula Rasa at a later date. There are a lot of other items they want to adjust and going forward they are going to make SCH adjustments a priority.

I say we keep providing our constructive feedback. They are aware that SCH needs some work. If they tweak the right elements we'll be back in business.

I appreciate the Dev team being so open, transparent and willing to quickly make adjustments. The test servers are a great way to facilitate change. We may not always agree with their vision but I do think that they are hearing our concerns.

This makes me so happy.

[Raksha]

Tabula Rasa's duration is being extended from 90 seconds to 180 seconds.


Any improvements are welcome, but I hope this doesnt make people think that this will 'fix' SCH.



Embrava will be castable on PC's outside of your party


I wonder it they'll make haste accessionable now too.



They're also going to give us the reason for the addition of 2hr spells and they will continue adjusting Tabula Rasa at a later date. There are a lot of other items they want to adjust and going forward they are going to make SCH adjustments a priority.


Maybe i'm just delusional, but I've never really thought that SCH needed major fixes to begin with. Sure adloq/animus spells suck, but it's not like they're a nerf. SCH has pretty much kept pace with the other mages except for light arts.



I say we keep providing our constructive feedback. They are aware that SCH needs some work. If they tweak the right elements we'll be back in business.

I appreciate the Dev team being so open, transparent and willing to quickly make adjustments. The test servers are a great way to facilitate change. We may not always agree with their vision but I do think that they are hearing our concerns.

Agreed! Thank you for all of your consideration devs.

[Merton9999]

Thank you for all of the testing Pebe. Those of us not on the test server really do appreciate it. And thanks to all those folks testing and posting feedback, it seems that SE is paying attention.

There was a new post on the JP SCH forum today. They are reducing the MP cost of both Embrava and Merton from 30% to 20%. Tabula Rasa's duration is being extended from 90 seconds to 180 seconds. Embrava will be castable on PC's outside of your party and they slightly increased the damage on Merton it seems.

They're also going to give us the reason for the addition of 2hr spells and they will continue adjusting Tabula Rasa at a later date. There are a lot of other items they want to adjust and going forward they are going to make SCH adjustments a priority.

I say we keep providing our constructive feedback. They are aware that SCH needs some work. If they tweak the right elements we'll be back in business.

I appreciate the Dev team being so open, transparent and willing to quickly make adjustments. The test servers are a great way to facilitate change. We may not always agree with their vision but I do think that they are hearing our concerns.

You just made my day again Sasaraixx. This all sounds very encouraging, both in terms of looking forward to the changes and in the dev team's willingness to adjust based on test server feedback.

[Sasaraixx]

You just made my day again Sasaraixx.

I aim to please :)

I haven't translated posts lately because Camate's posts usually follow not too long afterwards. I figured with the holiday today there may be bit of a delay. Hopefully I didn't make any errors!

I will say that if they do stick with making Tabula Rasa 3 minutes, then I withdraw my request to make stratagems last the duratioin of the 2 hour.

[Merton9999]

I will say that if they do stick with making Tabula Rasa 3 minutes, then I withdraw my request to make stratagems last the duratioin of the 2 hour.

I always thought this would be a good idea if they did it with everything but Accession and Manifestation. There are some circumstances where I wouldn't want AOE buffs (storms) or enfeebles (fighting NMs amongst non-aggro mobs for example). I'd be fine with hitting just the AOE strat. But you're right, with a three minute duration this is less than necessary now. I'd still like it though. Even if it's technically easy to do and the time cost isn't as noticeable, it's still kind of messy looking and annoying to spam them all.

[Sasaraixx]

My idea was to make it so that you could toggle them on and off. For example, you use Accession during Tabula Rasa and the icon remains up for the full duration. You cast Embrava and what ever else you need and then you click the icon to toggle it off.

So much of the time of TR was eaten up by using charges. A 3 minute duration would alleviate that hassle a bit. 3 minutes of focalization, alacrity, parsimony and ebullience would be a bit much compared to other 2 hours I think. Having to use the strategems balances it out quite a bit imo.

[Delvish]

I agree. It balances out quite nicely, considering you spend practically the time you gain from Alacrity/Celerity just using all the stratagems.

[Eric]

I'm fine with stratagems taking up a few seconds before every cast, it means I can have 50% mp usage, 50% recast time, and 25% more damage to my nukes in the same amount of time that a BLM would cast one spell with manafont.

EDIT: Not that we're trying to out-do BLM or anything. It is just a 2hr spell after all.

[Sasaraixx]

More SCH news today. I'm home sick, so I'll post my little translation. :)

Just like PUPs yesterday, the dev team decided to give us an idea of what they are thinking about for us on the road to 99. I'm . . . well. Take a look for yourself.

1. Have Light Arts affect Regen effects and Dark Arts affect Helix spell effects.
2. Adjust the levels at which Regen III/IV are learned.
3. Adjust the levels at which Helix spells are learned and adjust MP cost.
4. Adjust the recast for Modus Veritas.
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform.
6. Tabula Rasa adjustments.

Also, the version update is confirmed for next Monday.

I am happy that some of these changes are directly from the feedback we've been giving them.

I guess this confirms that we will be receiving Regen IV. (I don't see why they would comment on adjustments to the WHM spells in the SCH forum).

However, I'm very concerned about item #3. I really do not see the need for Helix spells to become subable. I assume they are doing this because we will receive Tier II helix spells but I really don't see the need to adjust the Tier I helices. This is particularly true if the change to Dark Arts will be available via /SCH. I think I would have rather this change be made for weather spells so that we could receive double weather effects.

I also hope that the boost to Klimaform is for SCH main. It seems as though the spell is going to be available from /SCH. I would hope that our AF spell could be better utilized by SCH mains.

I still see no mention of adjusting Aldoquium or Animus spells either :/ It is a start though. Let's keep reminding them of our issues!

[Sasaraixx]

And just as an FYI, the Japanese Scholars are NOT happy!

[Merton9999]

And just as an FYI, the Japanese Scholars are NOT happy!

This is really what I was afraid of when they said they'd be paying more attention to SCH. Another move in the style of past adjustments - sounds promising at first, then the result is a letdown.

1. Regen and Helix adjustments again could be nice, or lolmehwhocares. As usual they say "affect" with no indication of in what way or how much. I really wish they wouldn't mention it at all. It makes me hope for the best and fear the worst, which I'm really sick of at this point. To make me even care about Regen light arts would have to increase the potency, reduce casting time more and increase duration without purpetuance, especially if this is the help we're getting in the healing department without Cure V.

2. I also hope this means we get Regen IV, but again "adjust" is meaningless. They might as well say "We're going to do something with something." ><

3. I agree with you on Helix levels. I don't want other jobs subbing these or subbing them myself on other jobs. I also agree I'd rather see this with weather so all jobs can sub all tier 1 storms, but SCH main can then boost them to tier two with a geomancy spell or JA.

4 and 5 sound OK but not exciting. I'm not looking forward to MV missing every 5 minutes instead of 10. Maybe if it were 2 minutes. Again I agree Klimaform should not be boosted as a subjob spell. I don't mind that it's available to subs but it should be more potent in SCH's hands.

As far as Adloquium is concerned, I keep thinking about this in relation to Embrava. If you think about it, they took the suggestions we've had for Regen, Regain and Haste and mashed them up into one spell we can only use as a 2 hour. Want to AOE Haste? OK, every two hours. Want a higher tier regen? OK, every two hours. Want a more potent Adloquium? OK, every two hours.

I wouldn't be surprised if SE added tier 2 weather effects for SCH now given this new trend. Except we can only grant the effect every 3rd real life day on a full moon. Oh, and only under Tabula Rasa ... and they can miss ...

[Raksha]

Just posting to say that sasa and merton said everything i was thinking.

[Camate]

I got some info to give you all an idea of what the development is already working on for future scholar adjustments.

The next job adjustment focus will be on Light Arts and Dark Arts.
Below is the concept:

1. Make adjustments so that Light Arts affects the effect of Regen and Dark Arts affects the effect of Helix spells
2. Adjust the level Regen III/IV are learned
3. Adjust the level Helix spells are learned as well as their MP cost
4. Adjust the recast timer of Modus Veritas
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform
6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

We will be posting more information here on the forum as well as adding things to the test server some time after the September version update.

[Eric]

I wouldn't be surprised if SE added tier 2 weather effects for SCH now given this new trend. Except we can only grant the effect every 3rd real life day on a full moon. Oh, and only under Tabula Rasa ... and they can miss ...

LOL I died. I'm sure that's what they mean by "6. Tabula Rasa adjustments. "

Speaking of. . . I love the fact that our 2HR is getting buffed, but really . . .? They can't find something more important to change? I am perfectly happy with the new adjustments to Tabula Rasa that are coming on Monday.

I also want to say that I agree with everything sasa and merton are saying. It also gives me some comfort to know that the JP scholars are just as annoyed as we are.

[Oscar71]

Wondering if helix spells are going to become sub-able

[Granny]

what happened to adjustments to Light and Dark arts effects scaleing to the level of the scholar like casting time/recast time reduced, and mp cost reduced as level increase. Is that still coming...?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Wondering if helix spells are going to become sub-able

They wont be done to learn later, so one or two may be sub-able. I see the only reason for this so they can add tier-2 helix's later down the line.

[Granny]

Also what use is recast of Modus Veritas being "adjusted" if the ability still never lands on anything?

[Kogenta]

They wont be done to learn later, so one or two may be sub-able. I see the only reason for this so they can add tier-2 helix's later down the line.

It's probably to trigger on voidwatch with /sch at least on the yellow portion

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's probably to trigger on voidwatch with /sch at least on the yellow portion

Yeah, but Helix's are unique to SCH if they didn't add tier II then they've removed another unique thing to SCH. They might as well just remove the job if they continued that way.

[Zhronne]

6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

Isn't Tabula Rasa already "adjusted" with the new stuff currently on the test server and scheduled for late september?
Or is this exactely what you mean?
Hope those "adjustements" don't mean you're gonna nerf how Tabula Rasa works on the test server, because I'm personally loving it a lot :)

[Rexen]

Maybe the development team can start by explaining exactly what the Empyrean body enhancments are for Scholar. Seems strange that they're leaving it so open right now. "something to do with enmity" is vague at best.

I remember in the .dats that there were 4 spell animations added that people though might be tier II storm or helix spells, I forget which now. Maybe they're going to add dual element ones.

[Sargent]

The best SCH adjustment to Modus Veritas they can do it make it land on anything worthwhile, especially since it's a Voidwatch proc. Or just remove it as a Voidwatch proc all together, the whole concept of making a 10min JA that will most likely miss as a proc in a 30min fight is pretty ridiculous.
Still, these adjustments are great. I don't think Helix spells will be subbable, I see it as they'll just make all 8 of them learnable at the same level. The adjustment to Klimaform is gonna break the AF3 Feet even further.

[Leonlionheart]

I think the DEV team should seriously consider a cure type helix spell.

[Economizer]

Unlike storm spells, Helix spells don't really have to be sub useable. Ancient Magic is not sub usable, it is purely a Black Mage thing.

There is a big difference, since support magic tends to be subbed.

Getting tier 2 Helix spells does not mean Scholar has to share Helix spells, but getting tier 2 Storm spells would probably be overpowered unless every tier 1 Storm spell was sub usable.

Another thing that makes sense to request is Klimaform 2 or a way for SCH main to boost it, since it is now sub usable. Tier 2 weather spells should do this ideally though. Saying that other jobs shouldn't get this is like expecting White Mage to have Regen IV removed when Scholar gets it however.

[Raksha]

What would a klimaform 2 do though? Same thing just last longer? Double the amount of +macc?

[Economizer]

What would a klimaform 2 do though? Same thing just last longer? Double the amount of +macc?

I don't know that more mACC could be added, but it could do any number of other things, like Conserve MP, Magical Crit rate plus, increased duration to helix spells, or even a Conserve Stratagem trait. Conserve Stratagem would work much like Conserve MP on spells matching the weather, giving a chance to refund the Stratagems used on that spell.

[Raksha]

I don't know that more mACC could be added, but it could do any number of other things, like Conserve MP, Magical Crit rate plus, increased duration to helix spells, or even a Conserve Stratagem trait. Conserve Stratagem would work much like Conserve MP on spells matching the weather, giving a chance to refund the Stratagems used on that spell.

Might as well call it something else then.

[Sira]

it could be extended to work on job abilities, i know im personally supersticious about using it for modus veritus and i have managed to land it on T4 vwnm many a time. it is good to see that my report was not made in vain though, kudos SE.

[brayen]

I got some info to give you all an idea of what the development is already working on for future scholar adjustments.

The next job adjustment focus will be on Light Arts and Dark Arts.
Below is the concept:

1. Make adjustments so that Light Arts affects the effect of Regen and Dark Arts affects the effect of Helix spells
2. Adjust the level Regen III/IV are learned
3. Adjust the level Helix spells are learned as well as their MP cost
4. Adjust the recast timer of Modus Veritas
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform
6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

We will be posting more information here on the forum as well as adding things to the test server some time after the September version update.

1- Just affect the regen? something tells me this wont mean anything (prolly not even clsoe to the regen hlix ppl are talking about) also this will prolly affect sub thus removing it being exclusivity to sch so meh, the helix effect thign im not sure what to say, i have no faith in helixes at current.
2- not sure what the lv regen is learned matters at this point
3- hope this means they are going to either add helix 2 or something cuz otherwise what does it matter? or they going to give it as subjob like they like giving all our spells to sub lvl.
4- timer could be good if they actually make it land
5- klimaform duration would be mouthwateringly yummy
6- more 2hr adjustments, more then this update? hope its just as sweet.

[Sasaraixx]

Another thing that makes sense to request is Klimaform 2 or a way for SCH main to boost it, since it is now sub usable. Tier 2 weather spells should do this ideally though. Saying that other jobs shouldn't get this is like expecting White Mage to have Regen IV removed when Scholar gets it however.

Actually they are two entirely different things. One is an artifact spell that like all other artifacts in the game should be job exclusive. The other is one spell in a line of spells that is shared by multiple jobs. They really aren't comparable.

There is no reason to remove Regen IV from WHM however. I do not see the rationale behind that either.

I have been advocating a Klimaform 2 type spell for some time now. I think it is absolutely necessary now since the spell will be usable from /SCH. It should give a different bonus depending on which weather the player has, i.e. magical crit rate, conserve mp, -mdt, etc.

I also welcome changes to Light/Dark Arts, but they should be for SCH main only. The current bonuses should remain for /SCH. It is a fantastic subjob and should stay that way.

[Economizer]

Actually they are two entirely different things. One is an artifact spell that like all other artifacts in the game should be job exclusive. The other is one spell in a line of spells that is shared by multiple jobs. They really aren't comparable.

No other job has an artifact weapon of any sort that is useful by level 90, so you can't really compare Klimaform to other artifact weapons either. At best, it can be compared to something one job has had, like Refresh.

[Sasaraixx]

No other job has an artifact weapon of any sort that is useful by level 90, so you can't really compare Klimaform to other artifact weapons either. At best, it can be compared to something one job has had, like Refresh.

Usefulness is irrelevant. The spell was included within the artifact line of quests for SCH. As such, it is a piece of artifact. No other job has an artifact that can be used by other jobs. Whether you view the spell as useful or not does not change that fact.

[Zhronne]

Maybe the development team can start by explaining exactly what the Empyrean body enhancments are for Scholar. Seems strange that they're leaving it so open right now. "something to do with enmity" is vague at best.
Didn't they already find it out?
When you're in Grimoire and you use spells related to your current Arts you have a chance that the spell will generate 0 enmity.

So for example you're in Light Arts and using Cure IV? You have a low chance your Cure IV will generate zero enmity.



I think the DEV team should seriously consider a cure type helix spell.
I'd love it so much! Altough in all honesty it wouldn't solve the issues SCH have with the need of a spell stronger than CureIV.
A healing Helix would be a fresh and new concept in FFXI, but it's something we've seen in many other MMORPG (a HoT that heals a small amount at start, and keeps healing the target for a while) but it wouldn't really represent the solution to that issue, would it?

[Sasaraixx]

Follow up today from Foxclon to some of the concerns from the JP Scholars. (I told you they weren't happy! hehe)

(S)he says that they are thinking of making the adjustments to the grimoire for SCH main only. Foxclon also says that in the future they are thinking of adding a higher tier Regen spell and are planning on making it SCH exclusive.

This has potential if it heals enough HP over time. In conjunction with Cure IV, enhancing spells and hopefully some more buffs to Light Arts, that just might be enough. SCH won't be as safe a healer or as skilled at healing multiple members as WHM, but could be a passable healer on some harder content. I am fine with that. WHM should be the best healer in just about every situation, but I think having a viable second choice on more content is a good thing.

The question then becomes, will we also see improvements to the spells that we've been asking for since they were first implemented? Will the TP down spell actually be useful? Will Stormsurge be improved? Realistically, the job will need more than just a better healing spell to be invited for it's Light Arts. Why would you ever sacrifice the superior healing (and enhancing) capabilities of a WHM to invite a SCH? The answer would have to be that in exchange for losing some healing capacity, the SCH brings with it useful enhancing and enfeebling magic. Embrava is great but we'll need a bit more to warrant a spot. (The other answer of course is, "We couldn't find a WHM." Given how popular that job is, I can't imagine that often being a problem).

The other option of course is to make it worthwhile/necessary to have back-up healers in parties again. That is an issue that goes far beyond SCH main problems. And with the direction the team seems to be going, I think they are setting up RDM to fill that spot. I'm not sure how successful that will be however. It would be interesting if the new magic/abilities added made RDM + SCH a desirable combo. (As it stands now that combo is pretty redundant.) The jobs should provide the best enfeebling spells and very strong enhancing buffs. This is all in theory of course. Both jobs need some work to make that a reality.

As far as Dark Arts is concerned, I think the job really only needs minor tweaks. Modus Veritas aside, I'd only really like a slight fast cast added to the grimoire. Tier II storms would be more useful for curing imo, but I would welcome them and I'm sure the rest of the community would not mind if the remaining weathers became available via /SCH. It seems like tier II helices are on the way as well. Again, a welcomed addition but really only a perk.

[Zhronne]

I think Regen IV (and possibly Regen III too) are strong enough already. The main concern I have with HoTs in FFXI is the fact that they don't last enough (no, I'm not taking into account Perpetuance of course).
Having an exclusive to SCH HoT that heals as much as Regen III (or even slightly less) but does a big tick at start and lasts double the time regen does would be enough for me, probably.

[Sasaraixx]

That is a valid point. With AF3+2 head I think Regen IV would heal 34HP per tic. With gear and merits a WHM can increase this to 39HP/tic for 75 seconds. I don't think that 40HP+ is too much to ask for. I like the idea of the healing helix doing a a big tic at the start. If that is not implemented, perhaps a mild passive bonus could be added for the duration of the helix - something like shining ruby.

The other concern with these kind of spells (and this goes for WHM too) is the long casting time and as you mention, the duration of the spell.

[Zhronne]

The current casting times I could deal with if the spell lasted long enough. 60 seconds is not enough, imho.

[Sasaraixx]

The duration is a problem, but also as a main healer it can be a bit risky to spend 5 seconds casting a regen spell if you are fighting anything dangerous. A lot can happen in those few seconds. That is party of the reason why I don't use those spells during battle.

[Raksha]

Didn't they already find it out?
When you're in Grimoire and you use spells related to your current Arts you have a chance that the spell will generate 0 enmity.

So for example you're in Light Arts and using Cure IV? You have a low chance your Cure IV will generate zero enmity.





I never saw any testing that indicated this, only speculation.

[Zhronne]

I think I saw some moderate testing on BG? But maybe I'm just thinking about something else.


@Sasa
fair point, that's why if regen effects were to last long it would be easier to find a moment to place it on targets. But anyway, let's see what happens with the adjustements to Light Arts, hopefully it will be about speedcasting and lasting, instead of just potency ;)

[Raksha]

I think I saw some moderate testing on BG? But maybe I'm just thinking about something else.


I've kept my eye open for info ever since it was released, and I haven't come across it. There was a lot of testing in the final magian empyrean armor thread but no confirmations of any effect(s). if it was posted in the random question thread I might've missed it, but none of the wikis have any links to testing.

[Urteil]

I got some info to give you all an idea of what the development is already working on for future scholar adjustments.

The next job adjustment focus will be on Light Arts and Dark Arts.
Below is the concept:

1. Make adjustments so that Light Arts affects the effect of Regen and Dark Arts affects the effect of Helix spells
2. Adjust the level Regen III/IV are learned
3. Adjust the level Helix spells are learned as well as their MP cost
4. Adjust the recast timer of Modus Veritas
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform
6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

We will be posting more information here on the forum as well as adding things to the test server some time after the September version update.


o_o Amazing.

[Raksha]

o_o Amazing.

more like a-meh-zing

Will have to wait and see though.

[SpankWustler]

I got some info to give you all an idea of what the development is already working on for future scholar adjustments.

The next job adjustment focus will be on Light Arts and Dark Arts.
Below is the concept:

1. Make adjustments so that Light Arts affects the effect of Regen and Dark Arts affects the effect of Helix spells
2. Adjust the level Regen III/IV are learned
3. Adjust the level Helix spells are learned as well as their MP cost
4. Adjust the recast timer of Modus Veritas
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform
6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

We will be posting more information here on the forum as well as adding things to the test server some time after the September version update.

If nothing else, this post is an excellent example of when to use the words "affect" and "effect". Folks don't call Camate a linguist for nothing!

I think it's safe to assume that everything is so vague because exact ideas are still being hammered out, so it seems a little early to start complaining. They're headed in the right direction by making spells and abilities unique to Scholar more potent or easily used, at least, so I'm okay with waiting to see exactly what they're going to do.

[Sira]

I've kept my eye open for info ever since it was released, and I haven't come across it. There was a lot of testing in the final magian empyrean armor thread but no confirmations of any effect(s). if it was posted in the random question thread I might've missed it, but none of the wikis have any links to testing.

there was testing on BG (please dont ask for a link as i do not have it, i did not think i would have to keep it for proof) using libra and i think dia, dont quote me on the spell used. the spell occasionally generated no enmity.

[Raksha]

there was testing on BG (please dont ask for a link as i do not have it, i did not think i would have to keep it for proof) using libra and i think dia, dont quote me on the spell used. the spell occasionally generated no enmity.

any idea who did the testing? which forum it was in? random question thread? mathy parts? any information at all?

[Sira]

i believe it was in one of the ask a question threads, and i believe the way he tested it was he had someone pull via missed boomerang. he posted his test sample on the forums somewhere.

edit there was also some testing done in the final magian empyreal armor thread.

[Raksha]

i believe it was in one of the ask a question threads, and i believe the way he tested it was he had someone pull via missed boomerang. he posted his test sample on the forums somewhere.

edit there was also some testing done in the final magian empyreal armor thread.

I've searched bg, ffxiah, alla, and the official forums and still haven't found it. How long ago was it posted?

[Zhronne]

there was testing on BG (please dont ask for a link as i do not have it, i did not think i would have to keep it for proof) using libra and i think dia, dont quote me on the spell used. the spell occasionally generated no enmity.
Yep that's the one I Read. It had a very small sample though, and they didn't use Dia only, that was just the main spell of the test.
Think it was BG for sure! But it might have been Alla.

I guess the sample was so small that we can't be sure that's the effect, but if I had to give a % estimate it would be over 90% as far as I can tell :P


@Rak
As for when it was posted uhm... I dunno, but I more or less remember when I read it, and I think it was around may 2011

[Raksha]

Well I've been searching for 2 hours now and still haven't found it, so I'm going to have to call shenanigans.

Anyone else know/remember this testing?

[Sira]

seriously? lol

with a vague search i've come across testing that shows reduction of VE, kegsay did it and afaik he's pretty reliable when it comes to testing.

if you cant find anything in 2 hours, and i found something in 5 minutes, you are obviously doing it wrong.

[Eric]

seriously? lol

with a vague search i've come across testing that shows reduction of VE, kegsay did it and afaik he's pretty reliable when it comes to testing.

if you cant find anything in 2 hours, and i found something in 5 minutes, you are obviously doing it wrong.
How about you post a link instead of just complaining about how she can't find it?

[Sira]

i gave her a name, which makes it oh so much easier to find, im not here to baby you. additionally for those skeptical about what you hear about the testing, you should probably go test it yourself.

the seriously comment was that her saying the people that told her this, being told the same information by more than one person, and she pulls the shenanigans card. gives me reason to believe that she is no where motivated to actually find out the effect.


seriously though, it's incredibly easy to test to verify it yourself, we would have no reason to lie about it, so i cannot understand why you want to pull the bullshit card and expect people to hold your hand through the entire process. if it really took you 2 hours, which i seriously doubt, in that time you could have an extended test sample even on worms in la thiene.

or is it that bad that you would like me to go give you a sample myself?

[Raksha]

Did you find it on BG? i did a search for gown and posts by kegsay and all i came up with was this:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/98420-Final-Magian-Empyreon-Armor.?p=4417687&highlight=gown#post4417687

And the post right after that is me telling him "Nice work"

That post actually shows no effect.

And as for the other stuff, i was at work while i was searching, so couldnt test. I did a small test myself way back when but couldn't identify an effect.

On a personal note, sorry for coming off as hostile, I'm just tired of all these half baked theories popping up and people who "read something somewhere some time about a thing that might do something" and then getting it muddled up in their heads that it was proven.

P.S. I'm actually a dude, character is a chick (long story)

[Sira]

equally as sorry, i have witnessed the 0% enmity on nukes myself, so i know full well it works. and i know how you feel about it, it's precisely why i and many other dnc mains have issues with rosina.

and lol at the gender confusion, seems to be a lot of it.

[Raksha]

equally as sorry, i have witnessed the 0% enmity on nukes myself, so i know full well it works. and i know how you feel about it, it's precisely why i and many other dnc mains have issues with rosina.

and lol at the gender confusion, seems to be a lot of it.


Did the dia tests suggest a proc rate? If I find time to test it i want to get an idea of how many trials i'll need to see an effect.

[Sira]

i dont recall how large of a test sample it was, so no i dont know the proc rate, im expecting a 5% rate though

[Jamesy]

i'm personally excited for Regen IV that means scholar can heal up to 1,700 hp over time which is awesome

[Sira]

more depending on how light arts affects it

[TimeMage]

You can heal much more than 1700 HP if you spam Cure IV in that period of time. We need an increased HP healed per time, not even more MP efficiency (which is what Regen spells are for).

Don't get me wrong, I love having regen IV, but it isn't fixing anything.

[Zhronne]

Ehr... sorry about the thing on the Gown testing, wasn't really my intention to have people fight about it.
I just said I remembered reading something somewhere but I wasn't really sure myself.

As for experiencing myself that effect, I've been playing SCH 99% of the times in Abyssea only, and enmity there is so crazily spread around that I honestly never noticed the effect of "no enmity" proccing.

[Rambus]

I got some info to give you all an idea of what the development is already working on for future scholar adjustments.

The next job adjustment focus will be on Light Arts and Dark Arts.
Below is the concept:

1. Make adjustments so that Light Arts affects the effect of Regen and Dark Arts affects the effect of Helix spells
2. Adjust the level Regen III/IV are learned
3. Adjust the level Helix spells are learned as well as their MP cost
4. Adjust the recast timer of Modus Veritas
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform
6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

We will be posting more information here on the forum as well as adding things to the test server some time after the September version update.

Why are storm spells subable without strom II spells?
Why are we stuck on the same cures a sub gets?
Why are we /rdm only for enfeebling magic and magic attack bonus?
How come we cannot AoE light enfeebling magic?
Why is healing magic skill useless?
Why is elemental skill useless?
Why is divine skill not even used when light arts improves it?
Why do we need Addendum black for elemental magic rdm gets?
I/E needing Addendum black for stone IV - Thunder IV at 95/99 is stupid

[MDenham]

Why is divine skill not even used when light arts improves it?What spells linked to Divine skill do you even want?

Keep in mind that chances are the only ones you'd get are Banish, Banish II, Banish III (assuming WHM gets Banish IV next cap raise), and maybe Repose.

[Katalsar]

If you know they have Comet/Meteor you know they're gonna have Ultima. Ultima as I believe is light based magic so that means divine magic so I won't be so down towards divine magic until 99.

[Ahrana]

If you know they have Comet/Meteor you know they're gonna have Ultima. Ultima as I believe is light based magic so that means divine magic so I won't be so down towards divine magic until 99.

I'm going to disagree with this. Luminohelix works off elemental skill, so I don't see why ultima wouldn't also (considering they even give it to scholar). I also think that it would be a poor decision to add a high damage spell that would function well in light arts. Keep add.black for damage, add.light for curing.

[Ank]

Ultima as I believe is light based magic

Not really.


so that means divine magic

Not really.


I agree that its kind of weird to boost divine and not have a use for it though, but I also definitely agree that damage should stay on dark arts.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Don't forget RDM also has Divine Magic skill but no Divine Magic, I know Dia was once divine but it's not now.

Seems to me that SE just decided early on if we'll give 'em Dark magic we have to give Divine too.

[Merton9999]

I think I'll skip the divine magic spells on SCH, unless the same update also includes a gobbie bag expansion.

As far as having to be in Add: White to do high damage I actually wouldn't mind that aspect. If I was main healing it would be nice to be able to toss out a big nuke without switching arts and wasting charges. This kind of fits my request as of late to allow us to function between arts more efficiently.

But, if they did add Ultima for SCH at this rate I'd expect it to be under TR only, in which case it wouldn't matter where they put it and I'd be back just to the inventory problem.

[Fredjan]

I got some info to give you all an idea of what the development is already working on for future scholar adjustments.

The next job adjustment focus will be on Light Arts and Dark Arts.
Below is the concept:

1. Make adjustments so that Light Arts affects the effect of Regen and Dark Arts affects the effect of Helix spells
2. Adjust the level Regen III/IV are learned
3. Adjust the level Helix spells are learned as well as their MP cost
4. Adjust the recast timer of Modus Veritas
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform
6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

We will be posting more information here on the forum as well as adding things to the test server some time after the September version update.

1) While the ideas there are quite nice (I'd also hope that'd apply when SCH is main job :p) one of the first things I'd directly think of for LA/DA adjustments is like what people've said beforehand - effectiveness of Light/Dark Arts scaling by level. The reason is anytime I play Scholar I feel slow compared to White Mage and Black Mage - BLM's got the Elemental Celerity advantage (even if I pop Alacrity on SCH main, I feel like it's STILL slower than BLM/RDM, something's wrong with that picture - the plus side is SCH is capable of beating BLM on damage comparing the exact nuke), and WHM has massive cure cast time- gear/merit options. Through this method, I was thinking of something such as the following (as a suggestion):


By default, Light Arts and Dark Arts reduce MP cost by 10% and casting time by 10%. My suggestion if this is adjusted to scale by level would be around the following:

Level 10 - Original effect
Level 35 - 15%
Level 60 - 20%
Level 85 - 25%

Or something like that, but people'd get the idea. Of course by the term of "scaling" here not only does it make the arts more effective as a SCH main, but it also improves it a bit as a support job. These thoughts are similar to how they improved Sublimation, but instead of seeing an improvement every 10 levels, I listed this based on every 25 levels after level 10.
2) The first thing that this implies is that Scholar will likely learn Regen IV, since as things are, Regen IV is currently WHM only (Lv86). I never understood why SCH learned Regen III 17 levels later than WHM, considering they learned Regen I and II both earlier (Level progression and all). I personally wouldn't mind seeing a final Regen that is for SCH only, even though I'm a WHM main. It'd fit the Scholar "theme".



3) Unless tier II helix spells are being considered, I don't see much of a reason to adjust their levels, unless they'd go as far down as below 50 (which I'd honestly doubt). I'd definitely welcome T2 helix spells though.

4) This has been needed for a long time ever since it was "broken" in the eyes of many Scholars. I hate using Modus Veritas, because it's not 100% accurate like it used to be, and having a JA that can miss with a 10-min recast isn't exactly encouraging to any of us. However, I'd gladly accept a reduced timer given the situation we're expected to deal with now.

5) I'd definitely welcome this change. I've used Klimaform much more often ever since I obtained Savant's Loafers +2. The duration's extremely short in my opinion as it is, and it's not compatible with Perpetuance, due to being dark magic and thus compatible with Manifestation. Possibly it could gain an additional boost if SCH is set as main job, because /SCH people can use it as well at this point. I'm not sure what I'd suggest... like enhanced magical crit rate, perhaps, since the AF3+2 boots increase damage. (Such as through an additional piece of gear designed to enhance the effect.)

6) Embrava and Kaustra were nice additions to get people to use Tabula Rasa. Before these were added, I don't think I ever used Tabula Rasa ONCE, probably because I never got into situations where I'd want to. Given that it is our two-hour ability, I don't think it's too unreasonable to make some stratagems always active with it up, such as Penury/Celerity/Rapture/Perpetuance as well as Parsimony/Alacrity/Ebuillence/Immanence, perhaps with reduced effectiveness for balance (Probably still too overpowered tho, maybe it's just my mind thinking at 12AM). Given that our two-hour spells are compatible with Accession/Manifestation, I'd want the option to use those or not to use those.

Another point: I know merits will be looked into as we approach 99, but I don't see any reason at all for our merit stratagems to justify costing 2 charges. Even if they were one only, I'd rarely use them.

And that's my two gil on the matters concerning Scholar. ^^

[Daniel_Hatcher]

25% Casting time isn't over powered, but 25% recast is IMO.

How about a 2.5% scale instead.

Level 10 - Original effect
Level 35 - 12.5%
Level 60 - 15%
Level 85 - 17.5%

[Rambus]

What spells linked to Divine skill do you even want?

Keep in mind that chances are the only ones you'd get are Banish, Banish II, Banish III (assuming WHM gets Banish IV next cap raise), and maybe Repose.

Repose would be the only thing I can think of that they can add for us that would play a tactical importance. I do not really need or want divine spells past Repose but at the same time it makes no sense for light arts to improve divine skill. RDM/SCH can't use it because of no spells ether. So right now all it can be used for is on PLD ( i know lol pld/sch) and WHM with underleveled Divine skill. So if Divine skill being improved though light arts has no use, then why does it does light arts improve divine skill? Do something with divine skill or get rid of the divine skill improvement, I like logic.

They can make a new series of spells for us that makes use of the skill, like a buff that has better potency with higher divine skill but I really cannot think of anything right now.



4) This has been needed for a long time ever since it was "broken" in the eyes of many Scholars. I hate using Modus Veritas, because it's not 100% accurate like it used to be, and having a JA that can miss with a 10-min recast isn't exactly encouraging to any of us. However, I'd gladly accept a reduced timer given the situation we're expected to deal with now.



With how that job ability is now and all they do is change the recast, it better reset in 1 or 2 minutes. 3+ will still be retarded.


[I don't think it's too unreasonable to make some stratagems always active with it up, such as Penury/Celerity/Rapture/Perpetuance as well as Parsimony/Alacrity/Ebuillence/Immanence, perhaps with reduced effectiveness for balance (Probably still too overpowered tho, maybe it's just my mind thinking at 12AM)

The notes did say it lasts 3 minutes now right? It would make your idea broken then. I would rather have the 1 minute with the always active all job abilities though; it gets annoying to use all those job abilities with spells.


Another point: I know merits will be looked into as we approach 99, but I don't see any reason at all for our merit stratagems to justify costing 2 charges. Even if they were one only, I'd rarely use them.

And that's my two gil on the matters concerning Scholar. ^^

I have said that over and over and over and over and now I feel like a broken record talking about it. I wonder why SE is ignoring about having useless things.

[Fredjan]

25% Casting time isn't over powered, but 25% recast is IMO.

How about a 2.5% scale instead.

Level 10 - Original effect
Level 35 - 12.5%
Level 60 - 15%
Level 85 - 17.5%

That isn't a bad idea either. My idea seemed to reach into Red Mage's Fast Cast territory by 85, as a RDM's natural fast cast by 95 is -30% casting time and -15% recast time, without using any fast cast gear. I would still want my RDM to be able to cast faster and have a quicker recast time (barring Celerity/Alacrity use), because that's sort of RDM's thing.


With how that job ability is now and all they do is change the recast, it better reset in 1 or 2 minutes. 3+ will still be retarded.

I could see them reducing it to 5. Less would be ideal though.


The notes did say it lasts 3 minutes now right? It would make your idea broken then. I would rather have the 1 minute with the always active all job abilities though; it gets annoying to use all those job abilities with spells.

Duh moment. Yeah, I wasn't really considering the duration boost Tabula Rasa gained. That is a bit too overpowered for three minutes. I wouldn't want them ALL to be active at once, just something like the cast time-/MP cost- at least. Time spent activating stratagems = less you benefit during the 2hr phase.


I have said that over and over and over and over and now I feel like a broken record talking about it. I wonder why SE is ignoring about having useless things.

It's likely they will examine it during the re-examination of merit points, to be honest. Way things are now, I can justify having fully merited Stormsurge and Enlightenment vs. meriting those stratagems. Oh yeah, they need to fix Enlightenment to work like it is supposed to. I do hope to see that fixed at the very least.

[Merton9999]

I agree with the recent suggestions on lowering MV recast to 2-5 minutes, obtaining Regen IV before WHM and adding Regen V for SCH, reducing the merit strategems to 1 charge, and providing a scaling fast cast to arts that brings us closer but still below other mages in their specialty spells.

One thing I'm extremely happy with now though is Tabula Rasa. Embrava is spectacular. The duration, potency, target behavior, and even the icon and sound effect are all excellent. Three minutes is just enough time to AOE + Perpetuance every buff, including Embrava on players outside the party, and have some time left over for a Kaustra or two.

I'm not sure about Kaustra yet. Of course it looks amazing. Damage wise, I'm getting the same initial numbers reported earlier of 3k+ on regular mobs in Abyssea. I like the DoT frequency and duration, and what looks to be a potency of about 25% of the initial damage. My problem is it hasn't been so good for me on HNMs. Maybe that's to be expected as we've seen with helix spells and Zantetsuken, or I'm not targeting the right modifiers.

The only thing that's really bothering me is the way these two spells fit together in Abyssea. I want to Embrava everyone to start a battle, but I don't want to Kaustra at the start because we need to proc. Of course both are viable during farming, but on proc NMs I miss out on being able to do damage with Kaustra. I wish there was a way you could pause the 3 minute window :p

[Rambus]

It's likely they will examine it during the re-examination of merit points, to be honest. Way things are now, I can justify having fully merited Stormsurge and Enlightenment vs. meriting those stratagems. Oh yeah, they need to fix Enlightenment to work like it is supposed to. I do hope to see that fixed at the very least.

eh, right now it is like merit Enlightenment and have your cat 2 merits be 6/10 where you can claim to be a fully merited SCH. free RR without going to light arts weeeeee.

really though, i been asking for that fix since that thing came out, /sigh.

needs to be less then 5 for it to be not retarded with all those stupid reist rules, like vw ><.

make it 1-2 mins or change the damn rules over it.

edit, 6/10 because i forgot stormsurge was cat II, we actally have something good there >< though i have to admit since the game will be 99 now, the stat jump needs to be higher.

[Sasaraixx]

A SCH post is incoming. On the JP forum Foxclon posted about changes for SCH on the test server. They are exactly what Camate posted about previously:
1. Make adjustments so that Light Arts affects the effect of Regen and Dark Arts affects the effect of Helix spells
2. Adjust the level Regen III/IV are learned
3. Adjust the level Helix spells are learned as well as their MP cost
4. Adjust the recast timer of Modus Veritas
5. Adjust the effect duration of Klimaform
6. Make adjustments to Tabula Rasa

There is just a bit more detail.
1. The change will be that the effect and duration of both spell lines will be affected by Light/Dark Arts.
2-4. Exactly as previously stated.
6. You will receive a bonus to the effect and effect duration of Regen and Helix spells while under Tabula Rasa. Also, (I think I'm reading this correctly) they will remove the recast time for Light/Dark Arts while under the two hour.

Expect an official translation soon. I just thought I'd jump the gun a bit :)

[Rambus]

what is the point of changing the level of helix spells learned unless they plan to make the first 8 subable and make helix II?

why is our weather buffs subable? they should make them all subable then and give us double weather effect spells.

[Sasaraixx]

I don't really see the need to make available via SJ either but perhaps the thought is that it would be silly to have tier II helices right after the tier one line ends. They could also jusy make them all available from lv50-60. We'll see.

The proposed changes to Dark Arts to enhance helix spells makes me think that they will be available pre lv50 though. As it stands, BLM and RDM could probably cast those spells more effectiely than SCH (barring Ebuillience. I've given up on MV at this point.) The buffs to SCH main would be justified in my opinion.

I'm interested to see how strong our Regens will become. I think SE really is running with the DOT/HOT concept. I just wish they would deal with aldoquium and the enmity spells!

[Camate]

We are planning to update the test server extremely soon and we will be releasing the exact schedule in the information section. Below are the planned adjustments for scholar:


• Light Arts will give a bonus to the effect and effect duration of Regen
• Dark Arts will give a bonus to the effect and effect duration of Helix spells
• Tabula Rasa will give a bonus to Regen and Helix spells’ effect and effect duration
• While under the effects of Tabula Rasa, there will be no recast times for Light Arts and Dark Arts
• The levels at which you learn Regen III/IV will be adjusted
• The levels at which Helix spells are learned, as well as their MP cost will be adjusted
• The recast time for Modus Veritas will be adjusted
• The effect duration of Klimaform will be adjusted

[Merton9999]

I'm as apprehensive about the lower helix level requirement as the rest of the comments here. I suspect it's happening so /SCH can proc with helix spells in VW, which will actually make SCH main less desirable. We still have Libra and MV I guess. I hope that the DA bonus to helix is actually a bonus compared to what we see now, and not actually an additional nerf when cast in LA.

I do have high hopes for Klimaform duration. Despite the fact that I think it's fine to allow it on /SCH, it does bother me that RDM/SCH can fulltime it with Composure active and SCH currently can't.

Regen III and IV learning level adjustments are long overdue for SCH. I'd also like to ask the devs to decrease the casting time of regen for SCH under LA. If the other mage jobs have such huge bonuses to spell casting time in their specialty spells, SCH at least needs to be able to cast enhancing spells faster.

I'm anxious to see results from the test server but I'm reserving excitement like I've learned to do with SCH announcements since level 76.

[SpankWustler]

• Light Arts will give a bonus to the effect and effect duration of Regen
• Dark Arts will give a bonus to the effect and effect duration of Helix spells
• Tabula Rasa will give a bonus to Regen and Helix spells’ effect and effect duration
• While under the effects of Tabula Rasa, there will be no recast times for Light Arts and Dark Arts
• The levels at which you learn Regen III/IV will be adjusted
• The levels at which Helix spells are learned, as well as their MP cost will be adjusted
• The recast time for Modus Veritas will be adjusted
• The effect duration of Klimaform will be adjusted

All of this sounds very interesting, but there's so much riding on the actual numbers involved that it's hard to get excited or infuriated yet.

I eagerly await the return of the test server. I haven't felt infuriated for a while, and I miss the sensation.

[Raksha]

We are planning to update the test server extremely soon and we will be releasing the exact schedule in the information section. Below are the planned adjustments for scholar:

• Light Arts will give a bonus to the effect and effect duration of Regen
• Dark Arts will give a bonus to the effect and effect duration of Helix spells



I hope these are significant.



• Tabula Rasa will give a bonus to Regen and Helix spells’ effect and effect duration


More 2hr buffs. /confused.



• While under the effects of Tabula Rasa, there will be no recast times for Light Arts and Dark Arts


Good good. Been wanting this for a while.



• The levels at which you learn Regen III/IV will be adjusted


Goes along with the light arts bonus.



• The levels at which Helix spells are learned, as well as their MP cost will be adjusted


Like others have said, no reason for this except to add Helix II spells. Are they gonna be part of the new merit system though?



• The recast time for Modus Veritas will be adjusted
• The effect duration of Klimaform will be adjusted

Good stuff.

[Sasaraixx]

I'm as apprehensive about the lower helix level requirement as the rest of the comments here. I suspect it's happening so /SCH can proc with helix spells in VW, which will actually make SCH main less desirable. We still have Libra and MV I guess. I hope that the DA bonus to helix is actually a bonus compared to what we see now, and not actually an additional nerf when cast in LA.

I do have high hopes for Klimaform duration. Despite the fact that I think it's fine to allow it on /SCH, it does bother me that RDM/SCH can fulltime it with Composure active and SCH currently can't.

Regen III and IV learning level adjustments are long overdue for SCH. I'd also like to ask the devs to decrease the casting time of regen for SCH under LA. If the other mage jobs have such huge bonuses to spell casting time in their specialty spells, SCH at least needs to be able to cast enhancing spells faster.

I'm anxious to see results from the test server but I'm reserving excitement like I've learned to do with SCH announcements since level 76.

I agree with all of this. If the intent of including Helix spells to the list of Voidwatch procs was to encourage groups to invite Scholar, making them available via /SCH will pretty much put the nail in the coffin on that idea.

Also, great point about the casting time of Regen spells. That should be another perk given to the Regen bonus. To be perfectly honest, I think another tier of Fast Case should be given to the Grimoire bonuses.

Klimaform - we'll see. It is a bit silly that RDM/SCH can full time the spell, but SCH cannot. We'll see how long they increase the duration for us.

And per tradition, I will mention in every post I make in this forum until we see some feedback: PLEASE adjust Aldoquium and the Animus spells.

[Alhanelem]

I'm as apprehensive about the lower helix level requirement as the rest of the comments here. I suspect it's happening so /SCH can proc with helix spells in VW, which will actually make SCH main less desirable.You're jumping the gun in assuming this means that they will be subbable. Helixes can drop by up to 10 levels without being subbable. Even if the intent is to make procing in voidwatch easier, scholar will still be desireable because they will be likely most effective when used by a scholar, and helixes being potent DoTs, should be desirable for more than just procing.

As everyone has said though, it will most likely be to make room for helix II.

[Economizer]

Regen spells could use a casting time reduction in general, Light Arts isn't going to make it MP efficient for White Mages unless White Mages are getting the full buffs Scholars are and it doubles the effect or duration.

I'm almost as disappointed in the White Mage AF3 gloves effect as I am that Scholars didn't get Regen IV. White Mages haven't really been getting enough boosts to Regen spells to really make the spell worth casting as a White Mage (and nor do I care about the ones we have in the slightest), whereas, Scholar has. While it make sense for White Mage to get Regen IV, considering spell list and merits and such, it is terribly silly that Scholar hasn't yet, let alone that they didn't get it first.

Scholar getting more boosts to Regen spells makes a lot of sense, especially since they currently have the tools to make the Regen spells work MP efficiently, whereas White Mage does not.


Klimaform - we'll see. It is a bit silly that RDM/SCH can full time the spell, but SCH cannot. We'll see how long they increase the duration for us.

And per tradition, I will mention in every post I make in this forum until we see some feedback: PLEASE adjust Aldoquium and the Animus spells.

If they increased Klimaform even by 20 seconds, you could full time it between strats and gear if I remember correctly, but I don't see why they'd do something so minor. I think they're going to increase it to somewhere in the neighborhood of three minutes.

As per your other suggestions, the Animus spells need to be buffed just as badly as the barailment spells. Adloquium could use a boost with Light Arts or skill.

[Katalsar]

I think since rapture enhances the potency of WHM spells this should enhance the potency of not just cure/dia/banish but stoneskin/phalanx/blink/bar-spells/regen/enmity spells/haste/aquaveil.

Ebulliennce should enhance spike damage even AoE.

I also feel that Immanence should have skillchain bound(like SAM) or something to increase the time to SC or MB

Also it would be great to have the Addendum icon w/ a number on the side just like ninja utsusemi.

Helix II spells are good but it must have some added effect to seperate it from tier I. I was thinking lower resistence or even add ailments. However, if they don't add anything SE would just lower the lvl to learn spells and have tier II do almost the same dmg or a little more as our tier I.

sooo pisses me off to see that WHM (I can see RDM) can give status buffs (boost-spell) more than my merited stormsurge. Please consider this..this is a disappointment.

Since we already have Kaustra which is the ultimate dot. Why not make other spells w/ different elements do same thing. For those mobs that have a resistant to darkness damage I would rather want to use a taby spell that the mob is weak to that way i get the full potency.

[Economizer]

I think since rapture enhances the potency of WHM spells this should enhance the potency of not just cure/dia/banish but stoneskin/phalanx/blink/bar-spells/regen/enmity spells/haste/aquaveil.

Rapture shouldn't increase the potency of Haste, Phalanx, or Bar-spells. Haste in particular because it is a incredibly powerful spell that makes or breaks game balance.

That said, it would make a lot of sense for Regen/Regain spells to be able to be augmented with Rapture.

[Yugl]

Rather than improving the duration and magnitude of the heal, SE should just make it so that Regen is retroactive to damage under light arts. Thus, if regen lasts (X) ticks, you only use a tick when the person is sub (H) HP and have (H) increase as the level of regen increases. This would be different from PDT in that you take the full effect of the damage. This would be different from regen which "wastes" ticks. This would be different from cures in that you cannot use this method to cap HP and the effect is over time. This has much better utility prospective and aligns with SCH's emerging "over time" role.

[Zhronne]

And per tradition, I will mention in every post I make in this forum until we see some feedback: PLEASE adjust Aldoquium and the Animus spells.
What kind of adjustment do you think it's needed?

[Sasaraixx]

What kind of adjustment do you think it's needed?

They should increase Aldoquium to 2tp/tick and the Animus spells should decrease/increase enmity by a set percentage over time, instead of applying a straight +/-. It doesn't have to be a huge percentage but it would actually help to pull DD's back from the enmity cap. That alone would make it worth casting.

[Zhronne]

Animus Augeo works pretty fine, +20 enmity constantly on you is a good boost...
...in theory.
I said in theory because from my experience (which is very limited, not denying that) there are very few situations where such a spell is effective, and in those situations it usually doesn't really make a big difference.
Makes me wonder, is there a +enmity cap? Because if I recall there is a -enmity one.

The Minuo one is pretty lame instead, sure I'm not spitting on -10 enmity... I use it on myself from time to time, but it's not really a huge difference. Were they afraid people would have abused of this spell, dealing too much damage without gaining any hate, almost?
As far as I know it doesn't even count beyond the -enmity cap, so yeah, I agree that it would be awesome for them to tweak these 3 spells a bit.

Alas, I don't see it coming. Think that after the upcoming Grimoire patch (and subsequent small tweaks) we won't see all this attention on SCH anymore =/

[Raksha]

There are gear caps of +100 and -50 enmity.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Enmity
(contains links to kaeko's journal also)

[Sasaraixx]

Straight plus and minus enmity really aren't that useful. Almost no job in the game would have a problem capping enmity. The + from Animus would help them do it faster, but the best tanks in the game alreay do thy quickly as it is. Straight -minus doesn't help at all once you hit the the cap and it already pretty easy to reach the -enmity gear cap for healing jobs. I always thought the concept for thes spells was to help SCH manipulate the flow of battle. You can't do that with these spells.

Something needs to be done with them because there is no reason to use them.

[Zhronne]

Thanks.
Guess it has already been tested that neither of the Animus spells can exceed the enmity caps, right?

[Raksha]

Thanks.
Guess it has already been tested that neither of the Animus spells can exceed the enmity caps, right?

I thought i remembered reading somewhere that that is the case, but I can't seem to find it anymore, so it would need to be re-checked.

Tranquil heart and the merit stratagems break the cap (but they are multiplicative instead of additive.)

[Zhronne]

You mean the group2 merit stratagem that consumes 2 charges? (and that doesn't stack with Animus -.-)
Yes I supposed so because I was using it generating almost no enmity at all, so I pretty much assumed that :)

[Sasaraixx]

Same here and I'm at work so I can't look for it. I should have waited and looked that up before I responded so as not to talk out of my backside :)

I'll check when I get home.

[Muras]

Regen spells could use a casting time reduction in general,

This. I came to reply specifically to this, and I'm glad to see someone else feels the same way. I've talked about this before with friends of mine in game as well and we all agreed that it was too inefficient to use Regen spells because of their long cast time.

For example, I suppose the theory behind Regen spells is that they're used to complement the main cures. However, if your tank or whatever is taking damage, he usually needs a cure right now, so you use basic cure spells. You usually top off their HP and at that point, so there's no reason to use a Regen spell because his HP is full, and higher tier Regen spells last such a short time that if the HP is topped off, the extra HP from Regen may never have been any use since the target never took damage during the window Regen was up.

Basically, I think it should be looked at like this:
Regen: Slow HP recovery, so faster cast time.
Cures: Instant HP Recovery, slower cast time (In comparison to Regen).

This way, Regen spells can be something you can toss up in between cure spells, which would be awesome.

However...


Light Arts isn't going to make it MP efficient for White Mages unless White Mages are getting the full buffs Scholars are and it doubles the effect or duration.

If I'm not mistaken, I think they've said in a previous post that these changes to Light/Dark arts would only effect SCH main. And I don't think WHM benefiting from this is supposed to be the point, either. SE has said that instead of giving us Cure V, this is supposed to be SCH's "healing fix", or something. I'm not entirely sure though, so it would be great if Camate or another rep could give us details on this.


Adloquium could use a boost with Light Arts or skill.

This too. 1 TP a tick is waaaay too little and not worth my 40 MP (Light Arts) and 5 seconds of wasted cast time. Not only is it 1 TP a tick, it's only 60 TP for it's full duration (Or 150 with Perpetuance and +2 hands over 7.5 mins). 60 TP isn't even a single WS, and it's over the course of 3 minutes. That doesn't sound silly to the dev team? I pretty much use the spell as a joke:


Me: Here ya go, Regain!
NIN: Yay~!
Me: You'll have 150 TP in 7.5 mins. Enjoy.
NIN: :(

Another way to look at it is 5 TP a tick would be 1 extra WS per minute (100 TP per minute). Now THIS may be too much, maybe, but keep in mind that when I'm on DRK (Or any melee) I kinda get 100 TP every 25 seconds anyways so... I dunno.

Overall:
1/tick is 20 TP per minute, 60 per cast.
2/tick is 40 TP per minute, 120 per cast.
3/tick is 60 TP per minute, 180 per cast.
4/tick is 80 TP per minute, 240 per cast.
5/tick is 100 TP per minute, 300 per cast.

I'd say the perfect balance is 3/tick. I think a lot of us SCHs were hoping the Regain spell would make us desired in groups similar to how Refresh made RDM desired. 1 TP a tick doesn't do this, so please reconsider the workings of this spell.

[Zhronne]

To fix Adloquium there are several ways:
Release new gear with "enhances adloquium" stat
Make so Rapture doesn't just empower your next Curing spell, but your next buff as well (this would be beyond a fix for Adloquium though)
Make so Adloquium scales with your Enhancing magic skill, going up to 3 tp/tic past 400 enha (just like Embrava is 5tp/tic after 400)


My personal opinion about these options:
1) Oh god another inventory +1, please no!
2) This solution has a lot of potential, also because it could fix other spells as well, but if it starts working on everything it might become too powerful (Stoneskin, Phalanx, Shell...), and in all honesty I'm not really fond to have yet another stratagem to waste, I already don't have enough!
3) I think this is the easier solution and the one I like most


They should deploy some sort of fix to Animus spell as well. Those had so much potential, yet they're so useless atm...
I think someone suggested changing them into "%" instead of fixed values. That might be too complicated for them, but something they could easily do is using solution 3), i.e. making them scale with your enhancing skill AND making so those values go BEYOND the respective +enmity and -enmity caps. That way it would be a situational but welcome spell even for people who already dedicated time and effort into building +enm/-enm sets.
Or they could change it completely to work similarly to another effect which is already coded inside the game: Foe Sirvente.
Haven't read tests done on this spell and I have no clue if it's any good or not (don't have it on my BRD), but the mechanism behind it sounds more useful than Augeo's +20 enmity.
Basically it supposedly reduces the rate at which you lose Cumulative Enmity.
Think PLDs have a Job Ability which gives them a similar effect.
Also, since there is such an effect already coded in the game, giving it to Animus Augeo would be easy.
Just like it would be easy to create an opposite effect (cumulative enmity degrades faster) for Animus Minuo.
This solution sounds way more efficient (but also more complicated for them to realize, maybe?).
Were they to use the previous option (effect scales with enha skill, stacks beyond caps) I'd consider myself happy already.

[Ank]

The MP cost and learnable level of Helix spells will be adjusted.
*Planned future adjustments call for the effect duration of these spells to vary by job level, starting at a shorter duration and gradually increasing to its original duration at level 60.

Why?

Reserving judgement on most adjustments but some reasoning for this would be nice.

[Zhronne]

My guessing is that they watn to make all helixes at the same level and under 50 so that /SCH can use them, but their potency will be greatly inferior to that of SCH, which will actually be even more powerful than before if used at level 95+

On one hand it makes me mad (the uniqueness of bringing a SCH to voidwatch and similar places...), on the other hand we get more powerful Helixes so we can't really complain.

[LancerLeon]

Anyone know if they are gonna make "Regen IV" AoE-able now that it's gonna be a SCH mainpoint? Cause seem retarded if they didn't.

[Zhronne]

Accession doesn't work with Regen IV on WHM/SCH?
I didn't know and I agree at least SCH main should be able to accession it (and Haste as well, imho...)

[Sasaraixx]

To play devil's advocate, we don't know if helices will continue to strengthen after lv60. The wording only speaks to the strength of the spell at 60.

And I think it's a pretty poor move to make them subbale *just* so that groups do not need to bring a SCH to Voidwatch. But if we ultimately get stronger Helices *outside of the Dark Arts bonus* OR tier II helices, then I guess we can't complain. Otherwise they really did just make the change because of VW.

[Ank]

But if we ultimately get stronger Helices *outside of the Dark Arts bonus* OR tier II helices, then I guess we can't complain.

Well there is still some minor cause for discontent, as stronger helixes don't really matter if they're actively giving a reason to not bring a sch at all.

Also, they didn't say the dark/light arts changes were main only, so what exactly is a subbed helix going to be like?

[Kaisha]

All helix are subbable on the test server (with Anemohelix being lvl32 at the highest). Seems like its utility in Voidwatch just got thrown off the cliff.

[Zhronne]

/sigh :(
Hope we'll receive a compensation good enough to make us forget that... Will be harder to get a slot in VW now, tbh it wasn't that easy before either, at least judging from my experience.

[Kaisha]

Well, SCH's regen capabilities are through the roof now. 46hp/tic off Regen IV, lasts 150 seconds.

Light Arts bonus on regen is main job only also.

[Sotek]

Complete and utter bullshit.

Lowering the level of Helices makes absolutely no sense bar practically screwing Scholar out of Voidwatch.

Seriously, I'd love to hear the logic behind this. The only possible benefit is a lower MP cost and lower cast time - and they failed to mention cast time while specifically mentioning MP, which isn't all that great considering their MP cost is already negligible - there is no reason to lower the level for Helix II, you learn Stone IV one level after Thunder III, we could learn Geohelix II at level 85 - ten levels after Luminohelix - and then the next every two levels like previous Helices and that would have been perfectly fine. Making their duration based off level certainly doesn't require them dropping 33 levels. In fact, basing duration off level is a poor boost anyway. Do like I said for a change and make it based off Elemental skill (since the duration of Kaustra is based off Dark skill), you could even cut out that "Dark Arts enhancing the duration of Helices" since Dark Arts gives an extra couple ranks in Elemental skill as it is. Don't do that now though, though that's actually what probably will happen. Go for it SE, give Black Mage more powerful Helices than Scholar, it's OK, we can use an ability (just to cut from the ranting, what is the recast on Modus now? Duration of Klimaform, too) with a 90% miss rate - thought they probably ninja edited its accuracy without admitting how horribly broken it is/was - that either does nothing but speed up DoT or has a rather minor damage increase should anyone still have it merited.

inb4 "Scholars' getting lots of attention compared to jobs that are practically near perfect as is". Granted Red Mage should get substantially more attention than Scholar; I'd have high hopes for the enfeebling adjustment that's planned but SE have gone back to proving incompetents at every turn.

[Zhronne]

Well, SCH's regen capabilities are through the roof now. 47hp/tic off Regen IV, lasts 150 seconds.

Light Arts bonus on regen is main job only also.
All of that WITHOUT Tabula Rasa active? (because there's a bonus from Tabula Rasa as well).
Did you check if Savant's Head+2 affects Regen IV somehow?
It gives different bonuses to Regen I, II and III

[Seriha]

I haven't tried a Helix spell with SCH subbed, but if Regens are any indication, /SCH will have a weaker Helix spell by default and perhaps a harder time landing them with shorter duration Klimaforms.

[Zhronne]

Did some quick tests with Regens, here's what I found out:

Regen IV is already available at level 90 (maybe earlier too?)
The amount of bonus Light Arts provide seems to be fixed and not related to some other stats (like enhancing skill etc). At 90 my Regen IV was healing just as much as at 95 (??? see below)
Savant's Bonnet +2 works, and provides +4 bonus just like expected, following the pattern of +1 for Regen I, +2 for Regen II and +3 for Regen III
Regen IV was giving 46 hp/tic (without bonnet), Regen III was providing 39 hp/tic (think this was with bonnet, so real value should be 36). Regen IV without Light Arts was providing the basic value of 30 hp/tic
Lenght seemed to be 160 seconds to me? Whatever it is, it lasts a lot. Packed with Accession and Perpetuance this is getting really nice.
I admit I just eyeballed stuff but I didn't notice a "faster casting time" for regen spells



Since Kaisha got 47 mp/tic instead of my 46, I suppose I was wrong above with saying that there is no stat influencing it.
Either the stat is not enhancing skill but something else (MND? Sounds strange to me...) or the enhancing magic tiers for Regen are really large, because as I mentioned I couldn't see any difference between level 95 and 90, that's at least 30 Enhancing skill difference.
The gear I used for this test is: Full Empyreal Armor +2, WoE +2 staff, Bugard Strap +1, Incantor's Stone, Twilight Cape, Savant's Neck, Argute Belt, Omega Ring, Refresh/MP+25 WotG Earring, and I don't remember ear 2/ring 2 but they had irrelevant stats.
I have no enhancing magic merits either.

I mentioned 2 hypothesys above:
1) there is a stat affecting Regen but it's not enha skill
2) enha skill affects it but it has wide tiers
I'd like to add a third:
3) Kaisha made a typo, wrote 47 but meant 46.

[Kaisha]

I edited that post an hour ago. It was 46hp, I just forgot I had /WHM on at the time. With +2 hat you get 50hp/tic.


Regen IV is lvl79 for SCH.


Something has an effect on the regen potency though, as lvl18 for Regen1 with Light Arts up has zero bonus. Could just be strictly level related though as SE mentioned is the case for the helix series.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Accession doesn't work with Regen IV on WHM/SCH?
I didn't know and I agree at least SCH main should be able to accession it (and Haste as well, imho...)

Regen yes, Haste NO.

[Zhronne]

Waiting to read news on Helix Spells, Modus Veritas (3 mins recast? Same shitty accuracy?) and Klimaform. Also waiting to see how Tabula Rasa further enhances Helixes and Regen.

In theory we shouldn't see the duration buff/nerf for Helixes, since it's mentioned they're gonna put it at a later time, but just the increased potency and duration.
Can someone check if ticks still happen every ~9 seconds like they used to? I suck with these things, need someone better than me to have a more reliable measurement.

[Kaisha]

Klimaform lasts 3min vs. the old 1min. I'll actually bother using the thing now. Shame you can't use perpetuance with it. ;/

Helix ticks are same as usual. I'm currently looking for a higher-lvl mob to see what the new duration is though.

[Zhronne]

Regen IV is lvl79 for SCH.
Can you check how much it regens at level 79 and level 80? If it is level-dependant and nothing else I guess the buffs might happen in tiers too (like... every 5 levels?) and not every level.
Sounds like your level hypothesys is likely anyway.


Could just be strictly level related though as SE mentioned is the case for the helix series.
I *THINK* SE said they're gonna do the level thing for Helix sometime in the future, but it's not currently developed.
They wrote:

"*Planned future adjustments call for the effect duration of these spells to vary by job level, starting at a shorter duration and gradually increasing to its original duration at level 60."

Sounds to me that atm on test server the duration is still the same.




Regen yes, Haste NO.
Why? I mean I fully agree in Haste not being accessionable with /SCH, but imho SCH main should be able to, why not?
From next level cap we're gonna get haste from /RDM, would be a nice SCH-only thing to be able to accession Haste. Why are you against it?
And that Regen IV not being accessionable is so bullshit.
Did they mention that in official patch notes (like haste, refresh II etc) or is it something "unintentional"?
I see no reason not to make it accessionable, even for WHM.
Can anybody test if it works on test servers atm?

[Neisan_Quetz]

No spell Scholar cannot access via main or sub is accessionable, nor is haste/reraise/ probably something else I can't remember.

[Zhronne]

Klimaform lasts 3min vs. the old 1min. I'll actually bother using the thing now. Shame you can't use perpetuance with it. ;/
Wow... means you can fulltime it.
Previously I used to go with Alacrity+Klimaform to reduce the recast.
A bit off-topic, but anybody did thoroughful tests on Savant's Loafers+2 and Klimaform?
Do you need to have them equipped when you finish casting the spell, or can you swap into them whenever the buff is active to receive the bonus?
If it's the first (as I think), do you lose the bonus if you unequip them?


Waiting to see how mighty Regen will be under Tabula Rasa. Let's suppose 2x Time 2x Potency: 100 hp for ~400 seconds (perpetuance) and that stacks with Embrava's ~50 hp.
Whoa... 150hp regen, that's hot lol xD (wow... I just unwillingly made a genious word-joke with that "HoT" there xD)
What can I say... I'm really happy so far.
Bit sad about the long casting time, but hopefully at 99 we'll get another fast cast trait for Grimoire, can also use Siegel Sash etc.

This totally does NOT fix the issue of missing a stronger single target heal (be it C5 or C4+ or whatever else) and so, all in all, it doesn't fixes the issues SCH is currently experiencing while trying to be a healer. But nonetheless it's a welcome and nice buff which can only make things better compared to now.
There's still hope that they're gonna add some more bits here and there before they release this update anyway :)

[xStealth]

First post, and I didn't read the entire thread and I'm certain its been said more than once, but I just wanted to take this time to thank SE for their brilliant work in making SCH useless for yet another event, Voidwatch. Really SE? Good job.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Why? I mean I fully agree in Haste not being accessionable with /SCH, but imho SCH main should be able to, why not?
From next level cap we're gonna get haste from /RDM, would be a nice SCH-only thing to be able to accession Haste. Why are you against it?
And that Regen IV not being accessionable is so bullshit.
Did they mention that in official patch notes (like haste, refresh II etc) or is it something "unintentional"?
I see no reason not to make it accessionable, even for WHM.
Can anybody test if it works on test servers atm?

The point being Haste is not even learned by SCH, Why should they be the best at using it.

I'd be fine with it being Accessionable if WHM got Hastega, but since they're not it should just stick to being a nice SMN AoE buff only.

---

Regen IV was blocked because originally it was WHM only, the general rule is if SCH can't learn it or /subjob it then it's not accession-able, the only exception to the rule I know of is Haste.

[Zhronne]

No spell Scholar cannot access via main or sub is accessionable, nor is haste/reraise/ probably something else I can't remember.
It's 4:30 AM so my brain is probably not computing something out of your sentence but what do you really mean?
That only spells that SCH gets on its own (without sub involved) can be accessionable?
That's wrong, think about Refresh, you can accession that if I recall and you get it through subjob. Think about Stoneskin, long time ago SCH didn't have it but you could still accession it, same for Phalanx (/RDM), or other spikes spells or en-spells etc.

So, supposing I really got what you meant, you're wrong.
If I missed your point sorry, I blame the late hour!

[Kaisha]

lvl79 - Regen4 - 42hp/tic naked
lvl80 - Regen4 - 44hp/tic naked



Also, something I posted over on BG -

244dmg Cryohelix on an EP eye in Beau[S] w/ Ice weather, Hailstorm, Aquillo's, Ice Obi, Twilight Cape, Klimaform, +2 hat w/ Ebullience and other standard crap. Lasted 130 seconds, took roughly 75% HP away from full.

No idea how that compares to the old helix since I rarely used the damn thing on SCH thanks to its MP cost vs. modern day mobs dying too fast for DoT to matter outside of VW.

For 26mp with the adjustments I'm not complaining though. Best dmg-to-MP ratio in the game now.

[Zhronne]

The point being Haste is not even learned by SCH, Why should they be the best at using it.
Because SCH currently suffer during Light Arts compared to other healers. Well not much compared to RDM maybe (who already have enhanced lasting time for their buffs, thanks to AF3+2, without wasting Perpetuance charges like SCH have to), but definitely compared to WHM.
If they really decide not to give us a new single target healing spell, they could at least give more unique things.
After all "Accession" is a SCH trademark, making it "more powerful" when used on main job (i.e. making it work on spells that wouldn't normally work when /SCH) doesn't seem so wrong to me, does it?
Hope I managed to show what I really meant.

In all honesty it wouldn't be gamebreaking and it wouldn't even make SCH particularly desirable, it would just be a "little bit", but together with many other "little bits" (like the regen stuff etc) it could provide the right amount of "unique" stuff SCH need to stand on its own.


@Kaisha
130 seconds... that's more than 2x the time it used to last before? Impressive. Wonder in change they "nerfed" the formula that calculates the damage of the tics based on the initial damage. Hope that's not the case.
Also the new mp cost... is insane in terms of efficiency.
With such a long last time 5/5 modus veritas in group #1 becomes a powerful instrument. Altough considering its 99,99999% resist rate on NMs I may have been too optimistic :P
Any word on the tics? Still same unique timings as they were before? (round 9 secs if I recall)

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's 4:30 AM so my brain is probably not computing something out of your sentence but what do you really mean?
That only spells that SCH gets on its own (without sub involved) can be accessionable?
That's wrong, think about Refresh, you can accession that if I recall and you get it through subjob. Think about Stoneskin, long time ago SCH didn't have it but you could still accession it, same for Phalanx (/RDM), or other spikes spells or en-spells etc.

So, supposing I really got what you meant, you're wrong.
If I missed your point sorry, I blame the late hour!

Yes, you weren't reading it right. If its a spell Sch main could use, it was accensionable. If it's a spell Sch main could use via subjob, it was accensionable. Bar haste/reraise/w/e else I forgot no other spell was.

[Zhronne]

Yes, you weren't reading it right. If its a spell Sch main could use, it was accensionable. If it's a spell Sch main could use via subjob, it was accensionable. Bar haste/reraise/w/e else I forgot no other spell was.
Now this may sound as I'm trying to play dumb to troll you or something but I'm not, I just AM that dumb :D
I still don't get the point of what you wanted to say.
Yes, Haste is one of the exceptions, one of those spells that are not accessionable (no matter if you're SCH or /SCH) and it was said in official patch notes.
It's indeed that way.
I was just saying that while I agree with this policy for /SCH, I wish they would change it for SCH, making so a SCH main can accession Haste, whereas /SCH still cannot.

[Ank]

I wish they would change it for SCH, making so a SCH main can accession Haste, whereas /SCH still cannot.

Why?

/smn should give hastega by 99, we should all be able to accession haste.

[Sasaraixx]

Also, they didn't say the dark/light arts changes were main only, so what exactly is a subbed helix going to be like?

Yes, they did in a previous post.

[Ank]

It's already been confirmed on test anyways.

[Sasaraixx]

It's already been confirmed on test anyways.

That doesn't change anything about the validity of your previous statement.

[Siiri]

Why?

/smn should give hastega by 99, we should all be able to accession haste.

Seriously haste cycles are just needless busy work, why limit it to anyone? That is really stupid. White mage main would already be limited if haste was accessionable because we only have 2 charges. One less for penury Curagas/Cure V, etc or accession stoneskin. Scholar gets almost unlimited charges comparatively speaking.

As for scholar, I hope they are done buffing it. It was obnoxious before, now even random people who don't browse forums are going wth is up with SE and sch???? Other jobs need attention too.

[Sasaraixx]

Seriously haste cycles are just needless busy work, why limit it to anyone? That is really stupid. White mage main would already be limited if haste was accessionable because we only have 2 charges. One less for penury Curagas/Cure V, etc or accession stoneskin. Scholar gets almost unlimited charges comparatively speaking.

As for scholar, I hope they are done buffing it. It was obnoxious before, now even random people who don't browse forums are going wth is up with SE and sch???? Other jobs need attention too.

They are not done buffing the job. If you ever played it or had any idea concept of how badly it needs work you would understand that. And the notes mention more adjustments are coming.

That is not to say that other jobs don't need work (SMN, DRK, RDM BST, PUP, etc - note WHM is not one of them), but you can rest assured that SCH and THF are going to continue to be jobs that receive attention for the near future. Why? Because while other jobs need work, you'll be hard pressed to find jobs that need *more* attention. The dev team will eventually make it to everyone. Have some patience.

And SCH does not get unlimited charges, regardless of which job you are comparing it to. I am not saying that I think Haste(ga) should be SCH main only, but asking why only one job should be able to to make certain spells AOE and not others is a bit ironic coming from a WHM (see WHM vs RDM pre-Accession). Given that these stratagems are part of what makes SCH unique, I AM for SCH main being able to accession spells not available to other jobs.

I do not, however, think that Haste should be one of them. I don't think it should be possible for any job. Hastega is one of the few pacts SMN has that is unique. The other mage jobs are already able to cover Haste cycles just fine. Also, given the nature of the spell, you would be able to AOE it on alliance and outside parties as well. That is a lot better than what SMN can do.

[brayen]

Regen while seems nice, it seems to lack the potency it would require in any half serious situation where you are healing. the duration is nice and all but just that potency seems to fall short when most mobs will hit for at least 300 usually on a single swing, with the exception of maybe pld but if you are using a pld the mob is probably already doing a lot more then 300.

The helix changes seem meh as well, while the mp reduction and duration seem like a nice plus again the potency remains lackluster at current level cap. mixed in with the fact that helix spells are now open to all jobs you are left with a job that has only 1 proc for the current endgame of Void watch, that being Modus Veritas... which brings me to the next change.

Yet again the reduction in recast to this job ability is nice, the fact remains it does not land on ANYTHING worth mentioning which renders it unusable in the most literal of senses. If that issue could be addressed at the very least i could see helix spells being useful as stacking it with said job ability is frankly the only saving grace that has yet to arrive.

The changes to sch 2hr is a nice addition to the already strong additions recently made to sch 2hr.

Lastly the change to klimaform. Now this is the most positive and the single area where i say thank you. While i understand it will be available to all jobs as it is available as a sub job, the duration finally justifies casting it midbattle now.

So to sum it up, while it is a positive update overall, we have to keep in mind it is an overall positive for other jobs as well, as half od this stuff will be avaiable to other jobs (helix and klimaform)

Personally i would like to see some of the following tweaks:
- Either slight potency increase on the regen effects under light art and/or allow for rapture to affect regen so we are able to capitalize on this healing over time effect
- base dmg on helix OR shorten the "tics" on the damage over time
- Fix Modus Veritas so that it becomes usable instead of always missing
- add regain potency to the light arts and tabula rasa changes so as to add to the "over time" theme we are seeing here.

(note: all of this is without any insight as to weather or not we will see helix tier 2 or anything about future updates so can not take any of that into account)

please let me know what you think about any of this and/or if you support any of this!
in either case regardless of weather by the end sch becomes desirable or not i am thankful for at least getting an opportunity (and people need to stop complaining about which job needs an update especially when it is about a job that is bottom tier of desire.)

[Zhronne]

Given that these stratagems are part of what makes SCH unique, I AM for SCH main being able to accession spells not available to other jobs.
Yes, in the end this was the real point of what I was trying to say.
Stratagems are kinda a SCH trademark, so it sounds only right for them to be more "efficient" when on SCH main.
Being able to accession haste as SCH main would be a small example of what I'm saying.

[Sasaraixx]

Having finally read some of the information coming out from the test server, I have to say that I'm left very torn. I popped over the JP forum and the feeling is similar there as well. As Brayen said, we do not know what is in the works as far as new spells, so some of this worrying may not be justified in the end. It would be great if Camate could get some feedback from the development team on some of these to put our fears to rest. We don't need specifics as I am sure they are still being worked out, but it would be nice to know if they are aware of a few things.

1. Helix Changes
I was concerned that BLM or RDM would be able to make better use of these spells from /SCH, so the proposed future nerfs to them when accessed from /SCH is encouraging. The large problem I think is that this change basically makes SCH unnecessary for VW. You are already going to have a BLM for elemental magic procs and either it or the WHM can now cast the Helix spells as well. Modus Veritas misses so much that it is not even worth bringing a SCH for.

Also, the change in the levels in which the spells are learned was drastic. If tier II helices are going to be implemented, there is absolutely no reason to make a spell that was learned at 75 now available at lv32. Given how low these spells were made, I have to think that we should be getting Tier III Helix spells. I don't know how powerful they would be because I don't really have a sense of how strong the Helix spells are now after this adjustment. But purely from a level progression standpoint, you could easily fit in 2 more tiers: 18-32, 50-64 and 82-96. I am not saying SCH needs Tier III Helices. I've always said that our Dark Arts is pretty solid. I just cannot understand the reasoning behind making dropping these spells 40+ levels. If you were only going to add Tier II, then you didn't need to change the Tier I spells at all. The only reasons I can come up with are to make them available from /SCH for VW or to squeeze in multiple new tiers of the spell.

Also, if more tiers of Helix spells are added, they should become VW procs.

2. Regen Spells
These are great buffs. I still think the casting times are too long. I realize that the increased duration of the spells helps with that some, but you really should save off a second or two from the casting time for SCH.

I also think it would be nice for Regen spells to receive some kind of additional bonus similar to cureskin for WHM. As others have said, it is difficult to rely on these spells when mobs hit so hard these days. Of course we also have Cure IV, but some kind of additional bonus would really help in making SCH a viable healer. I have no idea what that could be of course. lol The other option is to lower the wait in between tics.

3. Modus Veritas/Klimaform
Both are nice changes. The accuracy of MV is still crazy but it doesn't look like SE is moving on this.

4. Further Light Arts/Dark Arts Bonuses
I really like the idea Brayen had of including Aldoquium to the list of spells effected by Light Arts. It should go up to 2tp/tic while under LA and maybe up to 2.5/3 at lv99. I'm not sure how much is too much to be honest. I do know that 1tp/tic is not worth casting.

The idea would also translate well if we receive the TP down spell that was mentioned in the Manifesto. It should be DOT type spell and its potency can be affected when cast under Dark Arts.

5. Animus Spells
Please do something with them! I'm really like the dot/hot/eot approach and these spells should be no different.

[brayen]

Animus spells could increase/decrease enmity over time sort of like a gradual enmity douse/ provoke maxing at around a 25~50%(total gain/loss) effect at the end of duration, personally these spells to me are worthless at current, (they are at the level of uselessness as Modus Veritas currently)

[Crossarius]

Used Regen IV under the effect of Tabula Rasa and it healed 54 Hp/tick. Stacked with Embrava(62 Hp/tick) I had 116 Hp/tick.

Regen III under Tabula Rasa ticked at 44Hp/tick. All tests without Savant's Bonnet+2.

@Light arts
The buff to SCH main LA is really good in terms of Regen! However I would have liked to see a slight decrease in Cast/recast time too. LA/DA should boost a SCH main more than a /SCH, so give it some more bam to cast/recast (Don't even care about more than -10% MP costs)

[Siiri]

They are not done buffing the job. If you ever played it or had any idea concept of how badly it needs work you would understand that. And the notes mention more adjustments are coming.

I don't play scholar, but everyone in my ls knows how much I hate it. So every time sch gets a buff I hear "we were already overpowered now we are more so. The new sch 2 hour is the most overpowered thing in the game" etc etc.




That is not to say that other jobs don't need work (SMN, DRK, RDM BST, PUP, etc - note WHM is not one of them), but you can rest assured that SCH and THF are going to continue to be jobs that receive attention for the near future. Why? Because while other jobs need work, you'll be hard pressed to find jobs that need *more* attention.

I disagree, I think DRK needs more attention than both sch and thf. As for white mage, I agree WHM is fine, although I have a big issue as stated with any other job getting Cure V. My primary reason for protesting scholar buffs is because of the black mage in me, not the white mage. I think Sch is waaaaay too close to black mage. If buffs are needed it should be done on the light arts, not the dark arts.

Unpopular is not the same as underpowered. Sch is relatively unpopular, for many varied reasons. One of them is the same reason pup is unpopular, its job ability heavy and seems complicated to the average DD. I would definitely take PUP off the list of jobs that need updating, it is already plenty powerful, most people just don't want to play it. There are also other reasons scholar is comparatively unpopular, it is a job that encroaches on black mage, white mage and red mage and those 3 jobs have a lot of fervent supporters. I am not the only mage who hates scholar. On vent or skype the mention of scholar gets groans from most of the longtime black and red mages. It also was released poorly with no real role, and its brief fad (when all the HNMLS were leveling sch for AV) was nerfed quickly.

[Merton9999]

Klimaform
No complaints on this. Lasting the full duration of the recast is more than I expected.

Helix
New duration and MP cost sound good. Though a longer duration on mobs I never used them on because they died too quickly is of course useless. And the mobs that don't die too quickly are too resistant or render helix useless with the dINT problem. Called the subbable thing, and absolutely hate it.

Regen
I'm not impressed by the numbers. I'd still rather have a casting time reduction. I'd like SCH to have a job trait similar to WHM's Divine Benison but for enhancing magic that would drastically cut casting time, recast time and enmity values.

Has it been confirmed that Regen IV is still not accessionable on the test server? I agree with Neisan's wording on accessionable spells. With a few timing exceptions while the caps were being raised (Shell V, Refresh) it is now the case that spells unavailable to SCH via main or support job cannot be accessioned. This says nothing about spells SCH can access. Haste and Reraise are not part of this statement because they are spells SCH can use. The issue is that in the current production game, WHM/SCH can't accession Regen IV (or Cure V) presumably because SCH can't use the spell. Since SCH will be able to use Regen IV, it should become accessionable. It would be absolutely ridiculous to allow Regen 1-3 to be AOE and not 4.

I also agree, like I have forever, that haste should be accessionable. I don't think it should be limited to SCH main. I do think the AOE capabilities of SCH should be better than other jobs /SCH, but other jobs /SCH are already severely limited by charge count and recovery. Also, buff cycling is the devil, and should be fought against with religious fervor on all jobs.

As far as SCH being hated and overbuffed: lol. To offer another perspective, my LS that is FULL of BLM and WHM mains, and one lone SCH main (me), has nothing but positive things to say about SCH. Not only do I get to play it in 90% of all current end game events, people constantly express their interest in leveling it now and look forward to their Hailstorm, Aurorastorm, and especially Crackbrava.

[Siiri]

So it is not overpowered, but everyone wants to level it since the buffs? Make up your mind, people don't want to level a bad job.

Oh and the whole point of having a main job, like white mage or black mage you wouldn't level a competitor to replace it. I guess that is the difference in the black mages I know, they love the job and don't want to replace it with scholar.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Klimaform
No complaints on this. Lasting the full duration of the recast is more than I expected.

Helix
New duration and MP cost sound good. Though a longer duration on mobs I never used them on because they died too quickly is of course useless. And the mobs that don't die too quickly are too resistant or render helix useless with the dINT problem. Called the subbable thing, and absolutely hate it.

Regen
I'm not impressed by the numbers. I'd still rather have a casting time reduction. I'd like SCH to have a job trait similar to WHM's Divine Benison but for enhancing magic that would drastically cut casting time, recast time and enmity values.

Has it been confirmed that Regen IV is still not accessionable on the test server? I agree with Neisan's wording on accessionable spells. With a few timing exceptions while the caps were being raised (Shell V, Refresh) it is now the case that spells unavailable to SCH via main or support job cannot be accessioned. This says nothing about spells SCH can access. Haste and Reraise are not part of this statement because they are spells SCH can use. The issue is that in the current production game, WHM/SCH can't accession Regen IV (or Cure V) presumably because SCH can't use the spell. Since SCH will be able to use Regen IV, it should become accessionable. It would be absolutely ridiculous to allow Regen 1-3 to be AOE and not 4.

I also agree, like I have forever, that haste should be accessionable. I don't think it should be limited to SCH main. I do think the AOE capabilities of SCH should be better than other jobs /SCH, but other jobs /SCH are already severely limited by charge count and recovery. Also, buff cycling is the devil, and should be fought against with religious fervor on all jobs.

As far as SCH being hated and overbuffed: lol. To offer another perspective, my LS that is FULL of BLM and WHM mains, and one lone SCH main (me), has nothing but positive things to say about SCH. Not only do I get to play it in 90% of all current end game events, people constantly express their interest in leveling it now and look forward to their Hailstorm, Aurorastorm, and especially Crackbrava.

Regen IV took accession of me but ReRaise didn't, so I'd say it can be Accessioned. Hard to fully test when no one is on the server and the people on it ignore you.

EDIT: Just found a very nice person that allowed me to test, it is Accession-able.

[Merton9999]

Regen IV took accession of me but ReRaise didn't, so I'd say it can be Accessioned. Hard to fully test when no one is on the server and the people on it ignore you.

Nice. Glad to see they thought of this. IIRC in addition to the icon being removed, I think you can also tell if the spell is accessionable by whether or not the MP cost is doubled in the spell list after using Accession.

Siiri I can see your point if people are emotional about their original job, I just don't honestly know that many people who are in the current environment. My perspective is very different at least. I played WHM and BLM for years before SCH was introduced. I leveled it because I thought it would be new and different compared to the 5-button sleepwalking sessions I had grown sick of on WHM and BLM. The first notice I had of all this jealousy and heartache over a competing job was reading forums. I never heard it in any of my LSs over the years.

As far as the contradiction between not being OP but people wanting to level it now: I didn't mean to imply that recent adjustments caused a surge in interest within my group. It's more just watching someone use 4-year-old stuff to do interesting things. They don't know what the job needs at 95 any more than anyone else who judges the OP status from afar by looking at one big nuke number in the chat log on average every 48 seconds.

[Raksha]

So it is not overpowered, but everyone wants to level it since the buffs? Make up your mind, people don't want to level a bad job.

Oh and the whole point of having a main job, like white mage or black mage you wouldn't level a competitor to replace it. I guess that is the difference in the black mages I know, they love the job and don't want to replace it with scholar.

Of the 5 other people in my linkshell who have sch levelled (besides me) all 5 of them also have WHM levelled and 4 of them have BLM levelled.

The majority of those ppl would qualify themselves as "BLM main". Perhaps you just have weird BLMs in your LS.

[Cuelebra]

ok this is not cool. Unless they plan on giving SCH tier2 helix spells go ahead. VW is about process not damage. we have smns and dd's for that. SCH was actually useful because of process and ability to backup heal. now they are totally useless. I agree the buffs to SCH LA/DA are cool. but very few mobs require strong dot to kill in the game.

[Zhronne]

did some tests with Light Arts, Tabula Rasa and Regen

Regen IV adds +8 to potency for a final amount of 58 hp/tic at level 95 (with +2 bonnet)
Regen I was at 29 (without bonnet)
Lasting time during Tabula Rasa is approximatively 210 seconds.

It's +24 hp/tic compared to "normal" Regen IV, altough the more impressive thing here, more than the potency, is the lasting. Especially if paired with Perpetuance it's gonna have a pretty high uptime.

Potency formula for Light Arts looking to be something like: (SCH level / 5) -3
150% of that for Tabula Rasa.
Credit goes to Foldypaws of Lakshmi



Edit:
Oh also I forgot. Regen IV works with Accession! Works even as WHM/SCH.

[Sasaraixx]

I don't play scholar

That's the problem with all of yours posts.




Unpopular is not the same as underpowered. Sch is relatively unpopular, for many varied reasons. One of them is the same reason pup is unpopular, its job ability heavy and seems complicated to the average DD.

You are trying to argue against a point that I did not raise. Where in any of my posts did I say that SCH is either underpowered or needs buffs because it is unpopular? The reason SCH is unpopular is because it serves no useful purpose in this game. If the job were nearly as overpowered as you claim, it would be the bandwagon job for 2011. I don't care how JA intensive it is.The reason it isn't popular is because it has no role and you admit that yourself. All of these SCHs in your LS who go on about how overpowered they are, how often are they asked to come SCH to events? The answer is probably rarely because there is almost never a reason to bring a SCH when you already have a BLM or WHM. THAT is the problem. We are starting to get to a point where that is changing and some people are feeling threatened. I can't for the life of me understand why. I have every mage job leveled and SCH isn't even the job I consider my main.

Buffs are needed to Light Arts because making it a more reliable main healer would help to carve out a role for it in this game. You concede the point that it is Light Arts that needs the buffs and not DA.

To be blunt, I don't care if you hate the job. I find most of your fears to be pretty silly. As long as there is a proc system, BLM will always be taken over SCH. The new defensive tools and mp regeneration available to BLM have also seriously helped the job. BLM can still kill things quicker, but SCH can pull ahead over time. There really isn't very much content out now, however, that rewards the DOT SCH brings to the table.

And there are so many different reasons why WHM is and always will be the #1 healer in this game that I'm tired of listing them. You could give Cure V to RDM and that wouldn't change at all. If SCH continues receive buffs to Light Arts then it will not need the spell.

And get over Tabula Rasa already. It's a two hour ability. And there are some pretty overpowered things that you can do with other two hours in this game.

The job isn't going away and the updates aren't stopping. It would probably be a lot more beneficial to everyone if you would instead offer suggestions of ways to make the job more compatible with other mages instead instead of complaining about nothing.

I also disagree with your opinion of PUP, THF and DRK but it is time for lunch and I've already written too much!

[Siiri]

I don't have to have scholar to post on it. I see it every day. As knowledgeable as you are, Sasaraixx, I am sure you read Kaeko's blogs at 75 where he writes that sch made black mage basically obsolete. A lot of us don't like SE going down that path again.

We bring a scholar to voidwatch, the only real event left in the game. We always brought them to einherjar, limbus, dyna, etc I don't see scholars being left behind in events except abyssea. As for that, welcome to the other 12 jobs left behind by abyssea. I don't see these other jobs abyssea didn't want being buffed.

As for Cure V, I think red mage could get it right now and it wouldn't really affect white mage. I think scholar getting Cure V would cripple white mage.

[Sotek]

I don't have to have scholar to post on it. I see it every day. As knowledgeable as you are, Sasaraixx, I am sure you read Kaeko's blogs at 75 where he writes that sch made black mage basically obsolete. A lot of us don't like SE going down that path again.

Why does everyone always use that blog post as ammunition against Scholar getting buffs?

Kaeko said Scholar basically made Black Mage obsolete but Black Mage never became obsolete and was never replaced by Scholar, quoting that statement holds absolutely no weight whatsoever. The only time Scholar ever replaced anything was White Mage in merit parties, except that was Red Mage since Scholar completely lacked Haste back then. Fuck, Scholar only replaced Black Mage in the sense of MP efficiency and that's something that practically doesn't even matter in the game anymore. Shorter fights, more Refresh gear, higher tiers of Refresh and gear that enhances the effect; MP efficiency is dead.

[Sasaraixx]

Sotek pretty much said it all. Back when there was actually a situation where it SCH was the better nuker, absolutely nothing in the game changed. After all of the buffs BLM has gotten directly and indirectly over the last 20 levels, you can't make that argument with any real sincerity.

And after this adjustment, assuming nothing else changes, there is no reason to bring SCH to Voidwatch. Your LS may bring SCH to VW b/c no one has any other jobs to go as or because your LS leader is nice and lets people go whatever job they want. None of that changes the fact that there really is no need to do so and that your group would probably be better of if those SCHs came as another job. Ein was the one event SCH had some unique utility. That has changed since the level cap increase. Dynamis and Limbus? Seriously?

And I do think you need to play the job to make some of the statements you are trying to. You don't seem to have any real grasp on what these changes are actually doing for the job overall.

[Siiri]

Well what events are YOU talking about where scholar isn't wanted if you think dyna and limbus are lol. I specifically said at 75 when they were real events they came, who cares what people come now. There is 1 event left in the game, voidwatch. Actually I am the ls officer who sets up parties and selects jobs, and I bring a scholar because I think it offers unique abilites, and it does have procs. At this stage of the game I try to let people bring the jobs they want, while helping the group. With 18 people there is a lot of room for flexibility, and scholar is a nice hybrid, I just don't think it should over power the main jobs like it used to do to black mage.

I guess the new high kindred crest battles etc could be called new events. I usually set up those as well, and if its a 6 person one I always bring 2 mages, why wouldn't sch come?

[Sotek]

Oh you're still playing the game with 18 people. This explains everything.

Other than that, do you not read?! Scholar never overpowered Black Mage. Fuck, aren't you the one who complained at us for asking for Storm IIs because the "only good Scholar you knew" bet he could out damage you, didn't share Hailstorm and you still out damage him? I could go find the exact post and replies you never dared respond to if you like. Either stop talking through your ass or leave, your choice.
I'd start ignoring your contributions to the Scholar forums completely, but the way you fly over the massive holes in your logic is just too amazing to leave alone.

There is absolutely no issue with Scholar getting adjustments. It needs adjustments. This is hardly the treatment Samurai got where a perfectly fine job received buff after buff. Other jobs may need adjustments - and more so - as well, but the order SE has done such things has never made sense. If you think a job should have adjustments more than Scholar, go to their forum and complain about it there where they might actually be picked up. Complaining about it here does nothing but give us more reason to post reasons why Scholar needs buffs and suggestions for them, I'd imagine the reason we're getting more adjustments is because we consistently post decent constructive ideas, while something like the Red Mage forum can't even reach a consensus over meleeing and en spells. Giving us reason to flood this place with more posts for Scholar adjustments is counter productive to whatever it is you want to achieve.

[Siiri]

No, the only event we do with 18 is vw. Because no one even has end game link shells anymore, and we have a lot of people who want to come. I have an emperyeon ws static and a +2 gear static with just a few people, although more than recommended because we have a great group of friends who like to hang out on skype etc and just have fun.

It doesn't matter personal player vs player, this was MATH that Kaeko laid out. You bet Kaeko or a really good scholar would obsolete a good black mage at 75. There are spreadsheets out there for DD that you plug in the gear, job, etc and it tells you the math on what is the best job. Same with sch, Kaeko laid out the FACTS, not personal opinions or variations in player's gear/skill/attention span.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yea, and his math as at 75 for single target nuking. If you haven't noticed, the cap is 95 now.

Outside of VW you don't need a large LS for anything.

[Siiri]

Yea, and his math as at 75 for single target nuking. If you haven't noticed, the cap is 95 now.

Outside of VW you don't need a large LS for anything.

I was speaking at 75 when I spoke of black mage vs. scholar., and said I didn't want to go back to that point in time. Also, I specifically said the only large event done anymore is Voidwatch. So we agree on these points.

[Neisan_Quetz]

In response to the 6 man 2 mages why not Sch - Why would you bring Sch over Blm at 95 (other mage being Whm)?

[Sotek]

You know a lot of Rapture theorists laid out maths and facts, too. Still doesn't change the fact that it didn't happen. Complaining at Scholar overpowering Black Mage at Lv.75 when it never happened is idiotic.

Do you want to know why it never happened? Because maths and facts don't fucking matter in real time. MP efficiency doesn't fucking matter. Ever. Plenty of HNMs typically involved tactics where you don't constantly nuke (Wyrms for example), leaving plenty of time to rest and thus damage becomes more important, Magic Bursts too. Then you have things like JoL where -aga are pretty important for dealing with adds. Granted those tactics aren't set in stone and have plenty of variation, but they were common place and the only way one job will render another job obsolete is if it replaces it in a common place situation. Scholar did not make Black Mage obsolete. Ever.

[Economizer]

If I'm not mistaken, I think they've said in a previous post that these changes to Light/Dark arts would only effect SCH main. And I don't think WHM benefiting from this is supposed to be the point, either. SE has said that instead of giving us Cure V, this is supposed to be SCH's "healing fix", or something. I'm not entirely sure though, so it would be great if Camate or another rep could give us details on this.

I was under the impression that the Light/Dark Arts changes were going to be for scaling with level, and the most basic parts of it might be available while /SCH, much like how Sublimation scales up with level currently. In my option, this is the way to go, but I know some people are so opposed to anything that might remotely buff White Mage even in an indirect way that they'd oppose something very logical like this.

Regen isn't very MP efficient vs. cures for White Mages, but is for Red Mages and Scholars, since they can increase the duration, and don't benefit from cheaper cure spells. Nothing, not even SCH, the best sub for White Mage, can make Regen worth it, sort of doubling duration while subbing it.


This too. 1 TP a tick is waaaay too little and not worth my 40 MP (Light Arts) and 5 seconds of wasted cast time. Not only is it 1 TP a tick, it's only 60 TP for it's full duration (Or 150 with Perpetuance and +2 hands over 7.5 mins). 60 TP isn't even a single WS, and it's over the course of 3 minutes. That doesn't sound silly to the dev team? I pretty much use the spell as a joke:


I'd say the perfect balance is 3/tick. I think a lot of us SCHs were hoping the Regain spell would make us desired in groups similar to how Refresh made RDM desired. 1 TP a tick doesn't do this, so please reconsider the workings of this spell.

Something else you might want to consider is if the spell gave 5-10TP a tic, but the tics were on the helix tics. You are more likely to be able to give a DD just enough TP to do a weapon skill with a lump sum payment of TP like this then you would be with more distributed amounts, and on the plus side, it fits Scholar even more.


Why? I mean I fully agree in Haste not being accessionable with /SCH, but imho SCH main should be able to, why not?

Haste is the most important buff in this game. Being able to AOE it across parties is not an ability that should be underestimated, nor snubbed.


Oh also I forgot. Regen IV works with Accession! Works even as WHM/SCH.

Nice to hear, I was worried based on the tone here that it wouldn't work with that despite that not being the trend. I still won't cast it on White Mage except as a joke, even if a minor part of the duration and tic upgrade came to Regen spells from /SCH. But Scholars will have more reason to cast it, which is great. The question now is if it is enough to help Scholars (considering on a ton of the Abyssea content you don't need a White Mage anymore, it might be for that at least baring procs).


And there are so many different reasons why WHM is and always will be the #1 healer in this game that I'm tired of listing them. You could give Cure V to RDM and that wouldn't change at all. If SCH continues receive buffs to Light Arts then it will not need the spell.

It would change a lot of things. People will always go with the least amount of support and healing they can manage. Would you rather have the healer who is "good enough" at healing, has an edge at preventing physical damage, and is just slightly behind at preventing magical damage, and can nuke and enfeeble better while more reliably keeping Haste up, or would you rather have someone who is can cure somewhat better then "good enough"?

The White Mage fears are completely founded and logical. The second anyone is able fill the same role "good enough" there won't be a need to go for anything but all out damage. This has happened time and time again, and will in the future if people are given the chance.


And after this adjustment, assuming nothing else changes, there is no reason to bring SCH to Voidwatch.

Wow. I'm guessing the only reason you are saying this is because some of the weather spells are sub usable, or your group doesn't bring many mages. Scholar's weather spells make mages more efficient, by a pretty sizable amount, and if you have a handful of mages nuking and a Scholar, you essentially have an extra mage nuking in addition to the Scholar's capabilities.

I don't really see the point of Helix spells being sub usable except to make any job able to nuke with /SCH but it definitely isn't the only reason to bring Scholar to large events. Hopefully you can point these out whenever you feel like coming Scholar to an alliance sized event.

-

All in all, ignoring the infighting, Scholars have been getting much needed adjustments. I can't really give a clear judgement on whether the arts adjustments being tested are "enough" but I can say that I still feel that a general boost to cures based on Healing Magic skill would be a nice addition to the game. If we can get the support of all jobs that cast cure spells without being illogically divided, we might be able to get SE to make Healing Magic skill boost the current cures we have over their current limits.

[Siiri]

In response to the 6 man 2 mages why not Sch - Why would you bring Sch over Blm at 95 (other mage being Whm)?

Because sometimes it is fun to let people come the job they want. If we are going to win no matter what, and when I go with my friends we are, its come what you want within reason. Not everyone wants to always go whm, blm and 4 wars or 4 sams or whatever the best DD is now outside abyssea.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That doesn't make Sch any more viable or efficient for the task at hand.

[Siiri]

That doesn't make Sch any more viable or efficient for the task at hand.

If the logic is only one job should be perfect for each role, then I guess I will advance the opinion that the pure job with only one function, IE the black mage and white mage, should be the perfect job over the hybrid that can flip between the 2 roles. So if we are all running the perfect parties at all time we should cut about 12 jobs out of the game.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Now you're getting it.

I say we start with Pup.

[Ank]

I was under the impression that the Light/Dark Arts changes were going to be for scaling with level

Thats the only reference to light/dark arts adjustments I could find that explicitly said for mains only, and it was in "sch adjustment part [x]" talking about a vague possible future. The current adjustment is for mains only though, atleast casting on test shows that.

IIRC these same posts seemed to indicate that the devs thought letting rapture affect adloquium (1.5tp/tick instead of 1tp/tick?) would be over powered so don't hold your breaths for anything there.


If we are going to win no matter what

Well at least I know I can come sch to things we can't lose regardless.

[Economizer]

Thats the only reference to light/dark arts adjustments I could find that explicitly said for mains only, and it was in "sch adjustment part [x]" talking about a vague possible future. The current adjustment is for mains only though, atleast casting on test shows that.

I haven't really seen a lot of the testing info so far, but I'll take your word for it. While I think it would be better flavor wise for the adjustments to not just affect SCH main (unless the changes start happening at level 50) I don't think it will really impact White Mages at all to have some minor changes or no changes from /SCH. Red Mage might be more impacted by this, since Regen is also MP efficient for them under ideal circumstances, but Red Mage's sub job selection isn't as black and white as it is for White Mage.

[Delvish]

I find it most amusing that it was BLMs not too long ago that were complaining about us with dark arts regarding our over-powered abilities. Given what they have, we only stood toe-to-toe with their less experienced compatriots. Now that there are adjustments to Light Arts short of Cure V, we have WHMs paying us visits now. Are we that hated that we can't be allowed a moment's peace when I can't even hold a candle to my AF clad whm level 70 fiancee? We are honestly hard pressed to reach 900 point cures while she can do just that with a single spell. These light arts adjustments are more of a necessity than a nice boost. Enjoy your high chair WHM, because no matter what adjustments we get, you will always have a place, just as you always have (sans merit burns, but those were boring anyway and a relic of the past).

[Boofaceing]

I dont play Scholar. I see that the most fighting on this boards happens over these type of things from War hating on Samurai and back and forth. My opinion is that they are advanced classes. An Advanced Samurai should not have a warrior holding a candle to them. A black Mage studies the White magics and he is then a Scholar and he should be able to well hold a candle to any of the other 2 magic groups. He is an advanced class, a scholar of magics, which if I recall not only from lore but just from a university, a scholar beats out a single mage skilled in one art anyways. Scholars possess great knowledge of magical powers, more so then a simple mage reading scrolls to learn his incantations as the game puts it.

Just my 2 cents, I am in for supporting advanced jobs being advanced. (Have seen you guys in action, it was pretty bad compared to others. My impulses were screaming 'Why didn't this guy just go BLM/WHM or BLM/RDM at the least?'. That was at lower level though, maybe it changes drastically at higher and the people argueing still have a point?)

[Sasaraixx]

I was under the impression that the Light/Dark Arts changes were going to be for scaling with level, and the most basic parts of it might be available while /SCH, much like how Sublimation scales up with level currently. In my option, this is the way to go, but I know some people are so opposed to anything that might remotely buff White Mage even in an indirect way that they'd oppose something very logical like this.

As others have said, you are incorrect. It was specifically addressed in one of the Q&As that these changes would be for SCH main. And there is nothing logical about this being available via sub. These changes are supposed to deal with the current problems SCH is having. It is no different than them adding new spells or JA. It is also no different than Afflatus not being available to other jobs via sub.


It would change a lot of things. People will always go with the least amount of support and healing they can manage. Would you rather have the healer who is "good enough" at healing, has an edge at preventing physical damage, and is just slightly behind at preventing magical damage, and can nuke and enfeeble better while more reliably keeping Haste up, or would you rather have someone who is can cure somewhat better then "good enough"?

No. It wouldn't. People will always go with the least amount of jobs needed. A WHM is always going to be included in that group. SCH and RDM are vastly inferior to BLM when it comes to procs. You are *always* going to have a BLM in your group if you are smart. That makes the added nuking utility from RDM useless. (And if you are main healing on anything remotely difficult you are not going to be nuking.) The edge in preventing physical damage is also debatable given cureskin.

More reliably keep up Haste? A Haste cycle is so hard these days. . . And the superior enfeebling magic is also a weak argument, given how so many NMs are flat out immune to the best enfeebles. Dia III is the one exception, but if you think that plus Cure V is going to be enough to bump WHM back to pre-buff merit party status, then you are incredibly paranoid.

For someone who claims to be a WHM and posts so much about the job, your underestimation of what it brings to the table is astounding. "Can cure somewhat better then "good enough." Are you serious? Unique procs, physical and magical damage mitigation, more efficient and potent cures, useful enhancing magic, quicker cure casting, status removal,


The White Mage fears are completely founded and logical. The second anyone is able fill the same role "good enough" there won't be a need to go for anything but all out damage. This has happened time and time again, and will in the future if people are given the chance.

. . . Guess what? WHM is still the better job of the 3 for going all out! If we were talking about BRDs being able to be passable main healers then the above statement would have some merit. But, we're not.



Wow. I'm guessing the only reason you are saying this is because some of the weather spells are sub usable, or your group doesn't bring many mages. Scholar's weather spells make mages more efficient, by a pretty sizable amount, and if you have a handful of mages nuking and a Scholar, you essentially have an extra mage nuking in addition to the Scholar's capabilities.

No, I'm saying that because SCH now only has one unique proc in VW and that was misses most of the time. There is no *need* to bring a SCH any longer. And bringing a SCH to cast weather spells on other mages (most of which can be cast on themselves) is not a reason to bring SCH to any event. You'd be better off inviting a SMN if you are talking about damage and utility.


I don't really see the point of Helix spells being sub usable except to make any job able to nuke with /SCH but it definitely isn't the only reason to bring Scholar to large events. Hopefully you can point these out whenever you feel like coming Scholar to an alliance sized event.

Yes, it is. You've already said that groups will always use the least amount of people needed to do an event. Old content is laughably easy and casual now, so people will generally go with whatever job the want. Endgame now is VW and maybe Abyssea. The most important element of these events is the proc system. People will always do what is most efficient to get everyone in their groups the most drops as possible. BLM didn't become popular in Abyssea because of all of the great direct and indirect buffs it has received over these levels. It's because it brings so many yellow procs to the table. Guess what this adjustment did? Take away the only unique proc spells SCH had.

The other important considerations are 1)making sure you don't die and 2)being able to kill the thing you are fighting. Because WHM is head and shoulders above on #1, you don't need a SCH to fill that roll. SCH could step in for #2, but given the above, you're better off with a BLM.

You're also making arguments that really have nothing to do with the heart of what we are saying. There is no role, no need, no great ability that would make SCH a staple in lots of different situations. All you've come up with is casting weather spells on other mages, which is weak at best, and arguing that SCH *can* come to large scale events. Of couse, it *can* go. I could bring just about any combination of jobs to events and win. That is not the issue. It is that SCH really doesn't have a defining role or utility that make it either necessary or highly sought after. And as you already admitted, it is the nature to do things as efficiently as possible in this game.



but I can say that I still feel that a general boost to cures based on Healing Magic skill would be a nice addition to the game. If we can get the support of all jobs that cast cure spells without being illogically divided, we might be able to get SE to make Healing Magic skill boost the current cures we have over their current limits.

That has nothing to do with this discussion and I don't know where this "illogical divide" you speak of exists. Everyone realizes that it is silly for /WHM jobs to be able to heal almost as well as SCH or RDM. An adjustment to healing magic would address this. It wouldn't change anything about SCH or RDM current problems or would it be much of a buff for WHM either, given how well it does everything else. Still, I doubt you'll find any SCH or RDM who would oppose it.

[Ank]

I dont play Scholar. I see that the most fighting on this boards happens over these type of things from War hating on Samurai and back and forth. My opinion is that they are advanced classes. An Advanced Samurai should not have a warrior holding a candle to them. A black Mage studies the White magics and he is then a Scholar and he should be able to well hold a candle to any of the other 2 magic groups. He is an advanced class, a scholar of magics, which if I recall not only from lore but just from a university, a scholar beats out a single mage skilled in one art anyways. Scholars possess great knowledge of magical powers, more so then a simple mage reading scrolls to learn his incantations as the game puts it.

Just my 2 cents, I am in for supporting advanced jobs being advanced. (Have seen you guys in action, it was pretty bad compared to others. My impulses were screaming 'Why didn't this guy just go BLM/WHM or BLM/RDM at the least?'. That was at lower level though, maybe it changes drastically at higher and the people argueing still have a point?)

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[Zhronne]

The question now is if it is enough to help Scholars (considering on a ton of the Abyssea content you don't need a White Mage anymore, it might be for that at least baring procs).
And the answer imho is "no".
Too early to tell, but it's not enough.
Still, it's a very very very welcome addition which will only make things better compared to the past.
We're not quite where we wanted to be yet, but we're definitely in a better position than we were before imho.

[Zhronne]

As others have said, you are incorrect. It was specifically addressed in one of the Q&As that these changes would be for SCH main.
I remember that, but atm they give a slight bonus to /SCH as well, Foldypaws tried it with me the other day as WHM/SCH on the test server, and he was getting a small bonus to the potency and to the lenghttime of the buff.

[Ank]

Have him retest, 60 second* duration 32 hp/tick with and without lightarts on naked whm/sch

[Siiri]

No. It wouldn't. People will always go with the least amount of jobs needed. A WHM is always going to be included in that group. SCH and RDM are vastly inferior to BLM when it comes to procs. You are *always* going to have a BLM in your group if you are smart. That makes the added nuking utility from RDM useless. (And if you are main healing on anything remotely difficult you are not going to be nuking.) The edge in preventing physical damage is also debatable given cureskin.
.

We seem to be going in circles here. If the agreed scenarios are least amount of people, one healer and one nuker, the only logical conclusion is scholar wants to be the healer or nuker. So the only solution is the hybrid needs to be better than the specialist, which isn't appropriate for a balance scenario. Unless you are saying scholar needs its own niche carved out, who would they be replacing? I am actually not being facetious here, I am trying to figure out what everyone is saying.

I gave the example of voidwatch, in which most of us still go with large groups. I said we always take a scholar to voidwatch. I was then told by Sotek I basically was a gimp who needed 18 people to do things with. I gave the example of old content in which people still screw around and lowman, like dyna. Then I was told lololdcontent. So what situations are you all talking about?

If we talking about Abyssea, there are probably 12 jobs left behind. Why is scholar a special unique snowflake that needs a niche carved out in abyssea. What are some examples in which you would like to come scholar outside of abyssea and are told no?

Is the fact that you can replace a black mage or white mage as needed not a niche? Are you not a support mage? Can groups not take a main healer and a secondary healer? Can you not main heal lower content? Can you not nuke as effectively as a black mage excluding procs in 90% of situations? Would you like more procs than black mage, and then black mages sit on sidelines? Would you like to main heal and then white mage on sidelines? Trying to figure out the buffs that would make scholars happy.

Personally, I think the scholar job was probably just bad game design and was never given a niche. Not sure at this point that can be fixed. In a low man environment a lot of jobs don't have niches. So those are some of my issues and questions.

[Ank]

So the only solution is the hybrid needs to be better than the specialist,

Asking to be capable is not the same as saying to be better than or to replace outright. It does, to an extent, mean replace but not in the "well we have a sch and a whm, lets go with the sch cause whm sucks" sense but in the "well we don't have a whm, but the sch can handle it" sense.

Yes some "lololdcontent" can be main healed by a sch, but most people want better general usability not "well its so easy anyone could do it".


Why is scholar a special unique snowflake

Because we're sch's? Its not like people don't petition the adjustments of their own favorite jobs. Yes sch isn't the only job behind in the race, especially in abyssea, that doesn't negate the need for adjustments.


What are some examples in which you would like to come scholar outside of abyssea and are told no?

I don't usually do pugs, but with the people and friends that I run stuff with its never "sch sucks don't bring it" but instead "well what can we do with the jobs and people that are available right now" and by extension for me personally its "will I be useful on sch, or should I just switch to mnk and ask to borrow my friends character again whose whm I leveled myself just so I could cure with her instead of on sch." (I love both mnk and sch equally, so its not a matter of which job I prefer to be on)


Would you like more procs than black mage

You mentioned VW earlier, part of the issue is that yes you bring sch to void watch but soon sch won't have any procs that blm or whm can't have. This was always my concern in abyssea, not that I had so few procs, but the procs that I had were completely covered by another job. Like I said its not always a matter of "more than" or "better than".

I have no interest in replacing a whm if we have one, I'd like to replace one when we don't and I just don't really feel that capable when I've tried.


Personally, I think the scholar job was probably just bad game design and was never given a niche.

Its true in a six man it can be hard to justify your slot, but as far as niches are concerned it feels like se tries but only half heartedly. Regain, enmity spells, libra, 12 minute haste two hour, these are all potentially niches that have all been given limited scope and utility. It really doesn't have to be that way.

[Zhronne]

Have him retest, 60 second* duration 32 hp/tick with and without lightarts on naked whm/sch
Oh, that's good news then, I was slightly disappointed when he told me that :)

[Sotek]

We seem to be going in circles here. If the agreed scenarios are least amount of people, one healer and one nuker, the only logical conclusion is scholar wants to be the healer or nuker. So the only solution is the hybrid needs to be better than the specialist, which isn't appropriate for a balance scenario. Unless you are saying scholar needs its own niche carved out, who would they be replacing? I am actually not being facetious here, I am trying to figure out what everyone is saying.

Because it's impossible for Scholar to be equal to White Mage and Black Mage, right? Totally a ridiculous thought to want to see shouts for "White Mage or Scholar (or Red Mage)" rather than what we currently get which I (hope) don't even need to explain. One job should not be given sole monopoly over a position in a party, look no further than Abyssea White Mages for proof.

Granted the Stagger system has far more to do with that than anything else, but then again the majority of what people here want adjusted are no where near the level of adjustment you seem to think they are. The number one suggestion here is for Modus to actually land. The second is for Adloquium to do 2TP/tic, third Animus spells to not be worthless (+VE/tic and -CE/tic, just hire me already SE). Even something like Cure V has almost always been advocated as a high enmity spell, which would pretty much make a worthless spell which is only used in an "ohshi-" moment like Cure VI.

It's really not a hard concept for the game to involve inviting a Scholar (Dark Arts) and a White Mage or a Scholar (Light Arts) and a Black Mage, or any other variation on that; including inviting a Black Mage and a White Mage. I'm holding out on Lv.99 to seriously judge the state of balance between Scholar and White/Black Mage, but right now I'd certainly say it's something that's needed some adjustment (which we've possibly got for Light Arts now). Certainly other jobs need more attention, but this isn't the Dark Knight forum, so I'm going to stick to telling people who come here complaining about Scholar updates to shut up and continue posting suggestions for Scholar.

[Sasaraixx]

Sotek and others have dealt with most of your post, but I'll add a bit more.




Is the fact that you can replace a black mage or white mage as needed not a niche?
If that were true we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.


Are you not a support mage?
If we are, we're not a good one. Outside of Embrava, which was *just* added, what other useful support abilities do we have? WHM and RDM can now use Accession for their buffs and BLMs can give themselves weather and Klimaform, save for thunderstorm and voidstorm. And so help me if you mention Aldoquium or the Animus spells, things will get ugly.


Can groups not take a main healer and a secondary healer?
Of course they can, but why would they want to? WHM can heal perfectly fine alone. There is no need for a secondary healer and if your group cares about efficiency, then having SCH in that role is a waste. You'd be better off with a BRD/WHM, who can add more support (as they rightfully should) and cover any additional healing that you could possibly need.


Can you not main heal lower content?
So can a PUP or a SMN. What is your point?


Can you not nuke as effectively as a black mage excluding procs in 90% of situations?
Excluding procs? Yea, nice try. On the majority of content that has procs, people are inviting BLM not for their nuking ability but for their proc'ing ability. SCH could nuke better than BLM and it still would not change anything. And if you're been paying attention to the comments in this thread, I'm pretty sure no one is unhappy with our nuking capabilities.


Would you like more procs than black mage, and then black mages sit on sidelines? Would you like to main heal and then white mage on sidelines?

Would you like to not try and paint everything as black and white and overly simplistic as this? How do you go from reading complaints about SCH's only unique spell procs being removed and then ask if we want more procs than BLM so we can put them aside? Asking to be an effective healer on more content does not mean that it will obsolete WHM.

Your group always took a SCH to Voidwatch because 1) you go with 18 people and have everything you *need* covered 2) SCH actually had unique procs that would warrant bringing the job along 3)your LS leader isn't obsessed with being optimal.

Boost Aldoquium to 2tp/tic, fix the animus spells, implement tier II helices and make them procs (or just return to the pre-adjustment levels for tier I), have Modus Veritas actually land, and give us lower cast time on Regen spells and grant some type of bonus to them. That's what I want. Yes, it's a lot, but none of it will effect your jobs in the way you seem to think.

[Sasaraixx]

Oh, and SCH post incoming. They explain their intentions behind lowering the levels of the helices. I have to say, I don't get it. They wanted to give SCH more of a "scholar-like" role earlier on and at higher levels they can become better. . . Let's hope I am lost in translation. They do acknowledge the VW proc issue and admit that it has been discussed by the team.

Camate-san, we'll wait for your official translation of course! I was scratching my head on this one :)

[Sotek]

Oh, and SCH post incoming. They explain their intentions behind lowering the levels of the helices. I have to say, I don't get it. They wanted to give SCH more of a "scholar-like" role earlier on and at higher levels they can become better. . . Let's hope I am lost in translation. They do acknowledge the VW proc issue and admit that it has been discussed by the team.

Camate-san, we'll wait for your official translation of course! I was scratching my head on this one :)

I really hope there's more to it than that. Giving every other job access to our only unique proc spells (and unless they've fixed it, our only procs) just so low level Scholars can feel more scholarly is beyond idiotic. Catering to the non-existent low level players is idiotic. Acting like anyone at Lv.30 is actually going to play the job and not leech in Abyssea is idiotic.

There are people at low levels but they're so few they might as well not exist, certainly not enough to justify that bullshit excuse. Making Helices stronger at higher levels? They're going to be the same strength at Lv.60, leave them as they are and increase their strength from Lv.60. It's not rocket science. Heck, treat them like a normal bloody spell set and just add a second tier in starting from Lv.85 rather than have some roundabout "they get stronger a you level" bullshit. Not difficult, SE. I know you were too busy thinking Libra and Animus were amazing additions to the game around Lv.85, but you can still go back and add them in now that you (hopefully) realize what awful additions they actually are.
I find it hard to believe they've actually discussed the Voidwatch issue at all. How would that have gone down? Helices are the only unique stagger proc we have for Voidwatch, there should have been absolutely no discussion, there should have been a uniform "Don't give Helices to /Scholar" from all. Once again they're displaying a grand lack of common sense followed by covering it up with complete bullshit. "Modus Veritas is working as expected" all over again.

Hey Camate, I want to feel like I have a more White Mage or Black Mage role at Lv.30, can you tell the development team to lower the levels of Holy, Flash, all Banish spells, Cure V, Ancient Magic, Elemental Celerity and -aga spells to Lv.30? I'd call it fair game then, but since I'll still be /Red Mage I'll have to ask that Red Mage gets all of that by Lv.30 too; poor fellas need a boost anyhow.
I'm being 100% serious by the way, unless the development team decides to have some common sense. They can completely omit the Dark Arts and Helix duration from this update for all I care, currently it's doing nothing more than completely ruining the rest of what is a quite nice update for Scholar.

[Merton9999]

I really hope there's more to it than that. Giving every other job access to our only unique proc spells (and unless they've fixed it, our only procs) just so low level Scholars can feel more scholarly is beyond idiotic. Catering to the non-existent low level players is idiotic. Acting like anyone at Lv.30 is actually going to play the job and not leech in Abyssea is idiotic.

This was my first thought when I read Sasa's preview too. Why are they making a change to SCH's fundamental unique dark arts function aimed at low level players? Do mobs take any longer to die in GoV than they do In Abyssea to the point that helices would be worth casting at that level? Do people use a helix to solo pages?

Even if there is a major benefit in providing low level SCHs some scholarly stuff, I don't mind the concept of providing unique abilities at low levels and scaling them, but what's wrong with the way it's always been done - with multiple tiers of spells? Basically where BLM gets non-subbable -ga procs because they're different spells, SCH is going to get stuck with the same spell that scales, so anyone /SCH can proc with it?

Silly. SE, can you please change Blizzaga 3 to level 40 and scale it? Thanks. Also, AM from levels 40-49. Or, stop this ridiculous scaling nonsense and just add Helix II and make those proc in VW instead.

[Bayohne]

As noted above, Mocchi did make a post regarding your job of choice, Scholar. Here it is!



I would like to explain the adjustments to the level at which Helix spells are learned and their MP cost.
I should have explained this to you earlier and I’m sorry it's taken awhile to do so.

There are 2 main points to these adjustments:

Allow scholar-like activity starting at a lower level
Review Helix spells so that damage and usability are increased at higher levels

We have been reviewing Voidwatch (and its weakness system) within our team, and have been debating this issue pretty heavily.

We understand your concerns very well, but it has been difficult for us to focus on anything other than Voidwatch. With that said, we have decided to consider not only the current situation, but also the future, which is why we decided to allow scholar-like activity from a lower level so that they can participate more actively in the battle content that will be added in the future.

We would also like to increase the merits of using scholar as a main job when using Helix spells, so please continue to submit your feedback on this issue.

[Sotek]

We have been reviewing Voidwatch (and its weakness system) within our team, and have been debating this issue pretty heavily.

We understand your concerns very well, but it has been difficult for us to focus on anything other than Voidwatch. With that said, we have decided to consider not only the current situation, but also the future, which is why we decided to allow scholar-like activity from a lower level so that they can participate more actively in the battle content that will be added in the future.

This makes absolutely no sense.
They're considering the situation for the future and making an adjustment that only has an effect in the past, or rather no effect at all since none of us currently benefit from lower level Helices, we're all already Lv.95. This adjustment is nothing more than a boon to any job that subs Scholar (White Mage springs to mind), Lv.40 Scholars aren't going to be doing Voidwatch or any end game event for that matter, giving them Helices has absolutely no effect. There are no low level events worth mentioning and EXP mobs will die before Helices even manage two tics; though maybe that's appropriate as at lower levels they wont even have a long duration.

Seriously, there is no logic in this move what-so-ever. I'd love to hear their debate over Voidwatch. I seriously have no idea how anyone could have reached the conclusion that this was a worthwhile adjustment to make. It does nothing for lower level players; there are none and even if there are Helices will be worthless at that level. It does nothing but bad for Scholar; you've given away 8/10 of our unique procs to any White Mage, the remaining two don't even work. Lower MP cost is negligible, I'd take lower cast time instead. Stronger Helices don't require dropping their level, be that a second tier, grading them by level or more sensibly grading them by Elemental skill.
Letting us participate more actively in battle content? What does that even mean? The only way that makes sense is that since Helices are a lower level, /Scholar can use them rather than Scholar main using them and that's just a bundle of sheer stupidity. They only other way I can possibly make sense of this is if future content is going back to having level caps and well, I don't even want to consider that.

Cut the Dark Arts and Helix section out of this update completely; heck never consider an adjustment to them again if you're this inept. It does nothing but ruin what is otherwise a great update.
It truly is amazing how they've got me off complaining at a non-update for Modus Veritas with this bullshit.

[brayen]

As noted above, Mocchi did make a post regarding your job of choice, Scholar. Here it is!

Hmm if this is all that is being considered at the moment for helixes i will have to add that they are fairly underpowered for most content. They are good on weak mobs but the duration means nothing in these cases and the low dmg value on top of the slow pace of the damage over time really leave a lot to be desired. Add on top of all that the only respectable way to power it up with our job ability, it will fail to activate on most monsters.
Feedback/opinion to help helix:
- better base damage
and/or
- make the damage over time quicker (normal 1 tic rounds)
(both of these could be adjusted by level as well)

- MAKE MODUS VERITA NOT MISS
(this is a must, there is no reason for them NOT to fix this, it was a terrible solution to the overpower conjunction of this ability across multiple sch and should be addressed)

[Rexen]

It makes me wonder though with all these adjustments to what level spells are learned if the new 99 end game (seperate from Voidwatch) will be something kind of like Salvage, where instead of starting with no access to armor/abilities, your level is scaled down and the higher you climb the higher your level goes. It would make sense as to when they say more battle content to be added because I can't see them adding completly capped events and they made leveling a mute thing so people probably don't even use the spells so much on the climb to 75, and just learn them all when they're there. It's only really 75+ where you start awaiting spells and even then it takes a few hours max to level into the ones you want.

I just think it's too much of a rush to call it all illogical because they do seem to be preparing a lot for what's to come over what is already here.

[Sotek]

Unless every event has a Salvage-style level cap this isn't worth it. We're practically worthless for Voidwatch, but possibly useful for an undisclosed event? Yeah, I'm not buying it. This isn't a fair trade no matter how you paint it.

Even if it was, having Helix II ~Lv.40, Helix III ~Lv.60 and Helix IV ~Lv.80, with III and IV acting as procs, would still be by far the better option than this stupidity.

[Septimus]

This makes absolutely no sense.
They're considering the situation for the future and making an adjustment that only has an effect in the past, or rather no effect at all since none of us currently benefit from lower level Helices, we're all already Lv.95. This adjustment is nothing more than a boon to any job that subs Scholar (White Mage springs to mind), Lv.40 Scholars aren't going to be doing Voidwatch or any end game event for that matter, giving them Helices has absolutely no effect. There are no low level events worth mentioning and EXP mobs will die before Helices even manage two tics; though maybe that's appropriate as at lower levels they wont even have a long duration.

Seriously, there is no logic in this move what-so-ever. I'd love to hear their debate over Voidwatch. I seriously have no idea how anyone could have reached the conclusion that this was a worthwhile adjustment to make. It does nothing for lower level players; there are none and even if there are Helices will be worthless at that level. It does nothing but bad for Scholar; you've given away 8/10 of our unique procs to any White Mage, the remaining two don't even work. Lower MP cost is negligible, I'd take lower cast time instead. Stronger Helices don't require dropping their level, be that a second tier, grading them by level or more sensibly grading them by Elemental skill.
Letting us participate more actively in battle content? What does that even mean? The only way that makes sense is that since Helices are a lower level, /Scholar can use them rather than Scholar main using them and that's just a bundle of sheer stupidity. They only other way I can possibly make sense of this is if future content is going back to having level caps and well, I don't even want to consider that.

Cut the Dark Arts and Helix section out of this update completely; heck never consider an adjustment to them again if you're this inept. It does nothing but ruin what is otherwise a great update.
It truly is amazing how they've got me off complaining at a non-update for Modus Veritas with this bullshit.

I could see dropping the level of Helixes if they are going to add in a few stronger tiers of them; tier 2 stops at around level 75, tier 3 for level 99. This way they could keep them at about the same power for a lower cost and scale up them up by power and cost accordingly. Add in tier 2s to the current Voidwatch procs and tier 3s at the level 99 cap release Voidwatch Ops. You could leave the tier 1s so that it would be a comparable to subbing BLM or WHM, but require tier 2s so that there is an actual reason to bring a SCH even if it is a lame proc reason as opposed to the job bringing something to the table.

[Septimus]

It makes me wonder though with all these adjustments to what level spells are learned if the new 99 end game (seperate from Voidwatch) will be something kind of like Salvage, where instead of starting with no access to armor/abilities, your level is scaled down and the higher you climb the higher your level goes. It would make sense as to when they say more battle content to be added because I can't see them adding completly capped events and they made leveling a mute thing so people probably don't even use the spells so much on the climb to 75, and just learn them all when they're there. It's only really 75+ where you start awaiting spells and even then it takes a few hours max to level into the ones you want.

I just think it's too much of a rush to call it all illogical because they do seem to be preparing a lot for what's to come over what is already here.

Good lord, no, no, no no no no. No more level caps. It was a bad idea when the game started, it is a worse idea now.

I am almost on the floor in the fetal position at the thought of this. I lived through unnerfed CoP, I cannot handle any more level caps in my life.

[Rexen]

Unless every event has a Salvage-style level cap this isn't worth it. We're practically worthless for Voidwatch, but possibly useful for an undisclosed event? Yeah, I'm not buying it. This isn't a fair trade no matter how you paint it.

Even if it was, having Helix II ~Lv.40, Helix III ~Lv.60 and Helix IV ~Lv.80, with III and IV acting as procs, would still be by far the better option than this stupidity.
Well, not every event had atma, but a melee job not having a critical hit weaponskill killed it in Abyssea. If the new armor in this new event is highly saught after then it would make sense really lol.


Good lord, no, no, no no no no. No more level caps. It was a bad idea when the game started, it is a worse idea now.

I am almost on the floor in the fetal position at the thought of this. I lived through unnerfed CoP, I cannot handle any more level caps in my life.
I don't see how it would be so different to Salvage. I'm sure the monsters in there were scaled down the same as you, they died fast even when everyone was naked and had no weapons so I don't see how this would be different, if it existed at all, it is just a theory lol. CoP level caps were there to pose a constant challenge that leveling couldn't over come and, although I didn't do it when they were first added, towards the end when I did do them I had fun and I'm glad I did experience it before the caps were removed.

One thing it would do if anything would make people get to know their jobs for all the levels and it would be something new. Since a lot of the partying is skipped now, and half the levels aren't even seen except with a "/item "forbidden key" <t>" macro, it would give people a chance to see what it was like. I can't think of any other reason why they would be so bothered about levels when people get through them at a ridiculous rate right now.