[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] NIN [Archive]

Greatguardian

07-16-2011, 03:03 AM

Gil is easy to obtain now and the tools are cheap, especially combined with the ninja tool expertise merits, gear and bonus from yonin. Nin is very cheap to play and if you're struggling to pay for your daily allotment of tools, I feel bad for you.

On a better note; from the language used, it appear they're looking to design an ability that would essentially allow a nin to avoid a mobs tp move. That's my interpretation of it anway. Anyone else have ideas or thoughts on that?

Wishful thinking interprets that as Utsu: San, but I'm not really sure that NIN needs it anyways given that they already have 9 shadows with +2 feet.

Maybe a spell that blocks an AoE move or -ga spell? I can't think of much else that Utsusemi doesn't already cover.

Sidenote: 400k Cruor = 1M+ gil. Chocobo Blinkers or bust.

Edit: Troll? No kidding. It's pretty much become synonymous with "Person who disagrees with me and/or thinks I'm doing it wrong" on these forums.

Bagel

07-16-2011, 03:09 AM

I would think San is out of the question for the reasons you stated. 9 shadows? There isnt much that you cant tank with 9 shadows. I am just hoping this new ability to turn aside enemy attacks isnt some migawari clone or parrying boost.

Diemond

07-18-2011, 06:58 AM

NIN
add a perfect parry stance
increase evasion for HNM's (bringing back nin tanks)
but i guess the real prob is magic absolutely rapes nin, so increased mag evasion or def wouldn't hurt
the nin 2hr should have been changed at day 1. how about making it where our shadows do dmg until they are struke down. and as long as our 2hr is active re-summoned shadows continue to do dmg.

wish12oz

07-19-2011, 01:40 AM

new ability to turn aside enemy attacks

When I saw this, I thought of enmity dose or however you spell that BLM ability. Something that lets you reduce your enmity to 0, turning the mob away from you. Not some new defensive ability like 3rd eye or God forbid utsusemi san.

increase evasion for HNM's (bringing back nin tanks)

Lack of being able to do damage and keep hate is what prevents ninja from tanking, not lack of evasion.

but i guess the real prob is magic absolutely rapes nin, so increased mag evasion or def wouldn't hurt

Suck less and get an MDT set, MDT caps at 50% for everyone. (unless you have an aegis, as of the last update aegis breaks mdt cap) Even then....... If you're getting hit by single target spells, or can't time utsusemi to land right after an aga spell goes off, you should get better at ninja. This is just user error on your part IMO.

the nin 2hr should have been changed at day 1. how about making it where our shadows do dmg until they are struke down. and as long as our 2hr is active re-summoned shadows continue to do dmg.

While ninja 2hour is terrible, this idea isnt that good either. Esspecially if they all come into play with as much enmity as you, and could pull hate, and cause problems with mobs that require exact positioning. What if your shadows get on the side of a wyrm and pull hate and flail your alliance?

Concerned4FFxi

07-21-2011, 04:01 AM

i'd like to see nin get the ability or nin spell that uses a smoke bomb to immidiately lose hate and detection on all mobs in zone (except true sight/sound/and smelling tracking mobs) and gain the temporary effect of invis and snkl for 30 seconds. This would be similiar to super jump but adds the effect of invis and snk, but short duration like current /dnc jig.

Diemond

07-21-2011, 09:34 AM

your totally right about the not being able to hold hate enough to tank, that totally skipped my mind. shows how long its been since I used nin besides solo stuff.

I was indeed talking about mobs who get aga happy, my nin had a decent MDT set but that gimped evasion so shadows took a beating right at the time for an aga spell lol. Its tough to think of ways to help with magic dmg. but i guess i was focusing more on my solo stuff for magic def. maybe a way for nin to absorb remaining shadows to heal would be a better idea.

my 2hr idea involved the shadow system working the same way. Just add the extra damage as if the nin was attacking an extra 12 times per round. This would even help by giving nin a spike dmg/hate ability to tank.

Faule

07-25-2011, 04:36 AM

I'd still like to see a job Trait that allows for higher potency/damage/acc on the next action performed out of Invisible status. Spell, melee, ranged, or what have you. Even if it's only good for once and rarely twice a battle, it would be a fun addition.

Komachii

08-03-2011, 09:33 PM

think the planned update to nin is trash, well ability could be good, but not holding my breath. StoreTP ninjutsu seems to be a joke, casting ichi every 3min so i get 5tp/hit? Give this us as trait, if you really worrying about tp gain, it wouldnt break the game in any way, wouldnt help even a little bit.
I dont really see what they up to with nin, "both offense and defense", so basically nothing will change, wouldnt mind removing positioning at least from innin because critrate is what helped nin a lot, or give lower critrate bonus when not behind.
So, i really feel, we have still no idea what we want with you guys, so we give you some shit.

Alderin

08-07-2011, 12:42 AM

I disagree with the haters in here.

Not sure what to make of the "turn away enemy attacks" as that could mean anything. We already have a lot of those abilities due to shadows, migawari & high parry. Eh, I am open to it..

STP ninjutsu however will be great for those of us with Kannagi. Providing it has a decent duration and will last half the fight, with a decent amount of potency. I consider myself as a ninja having quite good DPS, however when having to stop and recast shadows, and the odd proc spell, enfeeb spell etc - TP gain takes a hit and aftermath sometimes wears before I can get it back up. (Keyword "sometimes" to the trolls & elitists).

In comparison to other jobs I think NIN has it pretty good for the time being. They are in a high demand (pretty much every group needs one, if nothing more then red & yellow procs), have decent DPS in Abyssea compared to a lot of the jobs that need a rework, and all in all have a decent Empyrean weapon as well. I think a lack of job adjustments just shows that SE is quite happy with the direction they have taken NIN. So are most of the players.

As for tanking HNM's. Don't know what you're talking about with that one. DPS on nin even without atmas is still reasonably decent - there is also a lot more enmity + gear out there for us then there used to be. Have tanked a few now and had no issues holding hate.

Of course if you have an ukko WAR spamming WS's on it you're going to have an issue but for the most part there isn't a huge issue with holding hate.

The only thing I can think of that we suck at is tanking any of the Voidwatch NM's. However I believe they will become a lot easier with the level cap rises.

Oh I wouldn't mind some kind of accuracy bonus (that doesn't nerf our evasion) so we can full-time Yonin while tanking and not have to miss 80% of our hits. Maybe give us an A+ in Katana or something. (Am I the only one that notices this?)

Vortex

08-07-2011, 07:20 AM

Kirana

08-11-2011, 01:57 PM

If it's a Ni spell i would approve, but why is every new Spell "ichi" only, in some cases casting slow spells can even get you killed. we don't need a new spell that will just make nins MORE vunurable, i'm still waiting for that Jubaku Ni that makes no sense not to have at this point.

"ichi" is Japanese for "1", and "ni" is Japanese for "2". Asking for a Ni spell before ichi would be like asking for Fire II before Fire. It's merely a semantics issue; they could easily grant us an "ichi" ninjutsu with the casting/recast of a "ni" ninjutsu.

Ezrin

08-13-2011, 01:51 PM

Nin needs to get some love from Camate. =/

Cursed

08-15-2011, 03:11 AM

I don't think this job needs anything at all.
Scratch that - Native Throwing weaponskills and inexpensive/ middle tier / lower tier shurikens.

Economizer

08-15-2011, 03:57 AM

While ninja 2hour is terrible

Are you kidding? Ninja's 2hour is currently one of the best, since it essentially allows Ninja to remove weakened. Whenever White Mages talk about how terrible our 2hour is, or a suggestion to allow White Mage to remove weakened in some other way, the discussion inevitably comes down to "you can't do that, Ninja 2hour". While dying kinda sucks, I really doubt this 2hour will be changed, especially with how popular it is. The only boost I could see is auto-reraise on 2hour, but that seems like something the Mythic weapon should do...

On Ninja in general, the job is very powerful, meaning that even if you have something that fits the job's flavor and is interesting and widely asked for that Ninja deserves (like say, Throwing Weaponskills) SE has a hard time giving it to Ninja, because Ninja is so powerful that a slight misstep could crush any game balance like a Ninja crushes its foes. Ninja isn't exactly a silent assassin of the night in this game. It is more like a force of nature that will kill you and then steal your materia.

That said, here are a few suggestions for Ninja:
Throwing WS
A piece of gear that has a protective gauntlet that originates from a single pauldron on a shoulder. It should enhance throwing.
Some ability that summons a dog to do a single attack for you.

wish12oz

08-15-2011, 04:21 AM

Oh man, the people who don't understand game mechanics and think throwing can be saved have shown up. Someone light the Akujima signal!

Are you kidding? Ninja's 2hour is currently one of the best, since it essentially allows Ninja to remove weakened.

Maybe you missed the update announcement that WHM is getting a spell to remove weakness? And if you don't die like an idiot all the time it doesn't matter and is useless.

On Ninja in general, the job is very powerful, meaning that even if you have something that fits the job's flavor and is interesting and widely asked for that Ninja deserves (like say, Throwing Weaponskills) SE has a hard time giving it to Ninja, because Ninja is so powerful that a slight misstep could crush any game balance like a Ninja crushes its foes.

SE has already said that because of the way the game is coded they can not add throwing WS's. Do some research before you spout out this stupid crap 100 other people have already said. And ninja sucks on anything that isn't weak, and even on weak mobs, it doesn't do as much damage as real DDs.

That said, here are a few suggestions for Ninja:
Throwing WS
A piece of gear that has a protective gauntlet that originates from a single pauldron on a shoulder. It should enhance throwing.
Some ability that summons a dog to do a single attack for you.

lolnothanks

Economizer

08-15-2011, 08:52 PM

Maybe you missed the update announcement that WHM is getting a spell to remove weakness?

Source? I looked high and low and couldn't find it myself, and this is the sort of information I'd like to see firsthand for a comprehensive list. Thank you, in advance.

And if you don't die like an idiot all the time it doesn't matter and is useless.

Bad stuff happens. That's what 2hours are there for. But while your judging the play style to be that of one idiots use:

And ninja sucks on anything that isn't weak, and even on weak mobs, it doesn't do as much damage as real DDs.

Being able to do an extreme amount of damage using its many tools, I've seen Ninjas mess things up fairly reliably while being able to tank. Maybe it won't be able to do as much damage as another job, but being able to survive while doing the damage is pretty darn powerful. SE already told Paladins "lolno" to more damage, an most players assume that Ninja is a better DD then PLD.

SE has already said that because of the way the game is coded they can not add throwing WS's. Do some research before you spout out this stupid crap 100 other people have already said.

I am aware of this. That said, we're also talking about the same team that said they'd never go beyond 75, or that Ninja isn't a tank job, or any number of other things. There is a different team in charge of FFXI now too, meaning they might actually be willing to put it in, and considering the number of effects and job abilities added, I don't think it would be impossible, regardless of what the previous team, notorious for blaming PS2 limitations (some of their excuses turned out to be bunk) said.

Please don't assume people are stupid, it doesn't help constructive conversation on these forums.

Cursed

08-15-2011, 09:28 PM

was going to reply but Eco pretty much summed it up.
only an idiot would accept the "coding limiations" response from SE.
Since the "coding" response they've released a lot of new jobs, a lot of redesigned/reskinned old content.
FYI, its less coding to introduce throwing weaponskills than it is to introduce pankraton, chocobo circuits, MMM.. all of which are wasted resources and server space.

wish12oz

08-16-2011, 01:04 AM

If you don't like the coding limitations issue, how about we talk about why it's just dumb to add throwing WS's, which is simply that unless they do more damage then Blade: Hi there's no point in doing it because no one will use them because they will not be worth using! So hey, good idea, let's ask SE for stuff no one will use! Then they can waste their time doing a ton of coding and adding stuff, just so no one can use it! That sounds like an amazing awesome super idea! (As a side note, yes, Blade: Hi, don't give me any crap about how you don't have it or it's to leet for you or whatever. You could solo Kannagi at 85, and it's only gotten easier at 90, and we're about to be 95, there will be no reason to not have it except for pure laziness. If you just spent 1 hour a day and do 1 pop a day working towards it, you can have Blade: Hi in under 3 months by yourself will very little effort. OMGZ I DONT HAVE TIEMZ I R CASUL PLYR ONRYZ is not an excuse, and neither is not having friends.)

And maybe you guys missed the last 6 years before Abyssea when NO ONE played NIN, because everything was to hard to make it useful. Hard mobs make ninja junk, and on weak mobs, you don't need a tank anyway and other stuff will out damage it. The only reason NIN is doing good now is because of the false impression people have of it being super duper amazing. Granted it has a crit based WS (jin) and it's empyrean is very good because it is also crit based (hi) so it's better then stuff without good WS's, but it's really not that good compared to real melees.

I also seriously think it's less effort to add pancration, chocobo racing and whatnot, then it is to go redo the main code the game runs on that would be required to make throwing/ranged attacks useful and give throwing WS's. If it was something SE could actually do, it would of been done already, ranged attacks have sucked for years. Instead SE is simply moving on, and not adding shurikens because they recognize that it's junk and not useful. It's time for you guys to recognize it too.

Economizer

08-16-2011, 02:35 AM

I didn't catch that source of where White Mage was getting a way to remove weakened. Since anything I say might distract from this point, I am not going to bother adding a retort to anything you said, since I am genuinely more interested in finding the source of where SE said that they were giving White Mage a way to remove weakened.

Economizer

08-17-2011, 03:45 AM

Okay, it has been over a day, so I guess I can't really expect you to answer.

SE is about to release notes on Ninja (they already did on the JP forums).

Despite the garbled machine translation that I can read currently, I think I can clearly make out two major points. Forgive me if I misinterpreted it, like I said, garbled machine translation.

1. Throwing is really powerful currently, but not widely used due to cost. (And probably something along the lines of a "no we won't buff it directly.")

2. Lol no, NIN is not going to self heal.

Assuming that one is a no to throwing weapon skills also falls into my points. Ninja wouldn't get throwing weapon skills because Shuriken have high damage base and it would do lots of damage, and Ninja already does a lot of damage with a melee weapon, even ignoring OPTIONAL Empyrean weapons.

Ninja's who currently use throwing can output absurd amounts of damage in addition to their other abilities, but cost definitely holds back on this.

On the second one, who assumes that SE will make Ninja self heal without having to rely on a subjob?

Camate

08-17-2011, 08:50 AM

Ninja feedback!

Go ninja, go ninja, go! <3

I want shurikens to be improved.

Shurikens are not weak weapons, but they are not used very much because they are expensive, and it is difficult to obtain a shuriken that fits your level. We are working towards addressing these issues.

Regarding adjustments to ninja itself, we are planning on focusing on merit point categories initially. Concurrently, we would like to work on adding high level shuriken and increasing accessibility. We have received requests for adding additional effects and enfeebling effects to shuriken, but it would be very inconvenient to have to carry various types of shuriken in addition to ninja tools, so we plan to continue to separately utilize ninjutsu for enfeebling effects and shuriken for damage.

I would like Yonin/Innin to be sustained abilities.

In exchange for the effects wearing off after a predetermined time, we were able to craft effects that are very powerful. It is possible for the ability to be changed so that the effects are sustained for a long period. In this case, the effects will not wear off, and a weaker version of the effects could be maintained. However, the strong effects that exist currently would have to be weakened, so we don’t think this is desirable.

I want an ability that resets hate by throwing a smoke bomb.

For a job that has the versatility of not only dealing damage but also the ability to tank quite efficiently, we don’t have any plans of adding an ability that controls hate.

I would like the power of elemental ninjutsu increased.

The power of elemental ninjutsu can be increased through ninjutsu skill, skill bonuses, abilities such as Innin and Futae, and gear with magic attack bonus. We believe that elemental ninjutsu is sufficiently effective when used in conjunction with the above. However, we do think there is an issue with accuracy, so we are looking into a solution.

I want the duration of Monomi/Tonko to be increased to a length similar to the duration of magic spells.

Ninjutsu doesn’t have the downside of being detected by magic aggressive enemies when casting, so it’s much easier to recast ninjutsu than magic spells. Thus, the duration of ninjutsu is shorter than magic spells.

I want some way to recover HP using ninjutsu.

We have no plans of adding recovery type spells for ninjas. We would like players to choose a job with recovery spells as their support job or have their party members cover them.

I would like “Ni” and “San” upgrades added to enfeebling ninjutsu.

If we are to add upgrades to ninjutsu, we would like them to be learned as merit points similar to red mage, so we will look into this during our adjustment of merit points.

I would like ninjutsu that protects players from AoE spells added.

We have decided that ninjas will be weak against AoE spells in exchange for having strong defense against single attacks, with Utsusemi being the focal point.

Ninja Tools: I want to be able to create inoshishinofuda/shikanofuda/chonofuda through synthesis.
We are planning on implementing this.

Soundwave

08-17-2011, 09:23 AM

Ninja feedback!

Go ninja, go ninja, go! <3

TMNT II The secret of the ooze!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFLGRidfFo4

Unctgtg

08-17-2011, 09:30 AM

Oh my did he really go there. Camate is now known at Vanilla Ice.

Darkwizardzin

08-17-2011, 09:37 AM

Ninja Tools: I want to be able to create inoshishinofuda/shikanofuda/chonofuda through synthesis.

We are planning on implementing this.

Woodworking profit ftw.

Camate

08-17-2011, 09:42 AM

Oh my did he really go there. Camate is now known at Vanilla Ice.

I am strangely okay with this...word to your mother.

Andrien

08-17-2011, 09:47 AM

Oh snap!

yay for new shurikens ^_^

Soundwave

08-17-2011, 09:54 AM

I am strangely okay with this...word to your mother.

Do I win a cookie yet?:cool:

Camate

08-17-2011, 10:10 AM

Do I win a cookie yet?:cool:

Yeh, you get a cookie. :p

Washburn

08-17-2011, 10:13 AM

I am strangely okay with this...word to your mother.

I remember that... it came out the same time as "The Land Before Time"... and that Pizza Hut was promoting TMNT by selling their music on cassette lol...

skipping stones....

Soundwave

08-17-2011, 10:36 AM

SWEEEEEEEEEEET~

kingfury

08-17-2011, 11:49 AM

Ninja feedback!
Regarding adjustments to ninja itself, we are planning on focusing on merit point categories initially. Concurrently, we would like to work on adding high level shuriken and increasing accessibility. We have received requests for adding additional effects and enfeebling effects to shuriken, but it would be very inconvenient to have to carry various types of shuriken in addition to ninja tools, so we plan to continue to separately utilize ninjutsu for enfeebling effects and shuriken for damage.
----------------
I'm not a NIN, but I did post a possible solution to this very issue in my Creating "Job Abilities" for Throwing, Shield, Parrying, and Guarding (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking) thread. The Throwing weapons themselves would not necessarily have to have the enfeebling effects attached to them in order for players to benefit from having the ability to add enfeebles to what they're throwing. With abilities such as the ones myself and others are proposing within the thread, the NINs would be able to simply carry around any Shuriken they want and still have the added flexibility of enfeebling a target without worrying about bloated inventory issues. I ended up calling these "Enhancement Abilities" since they would work for every job that has the appropriate combat skill to access them (unlike "Job specific Abilities"). In regards to Throwing specifically, here's a few suggestions from the post:

• Throwing:
Like all the other Combat Skills listed above, throwing could be enhanced through a number of methods that perhaps have 3-5 tiers based on combat skill level. Instead of seeing something like a WS animation based on TP, a list of Throwing-based Enhancement Abilities would now be nestled within our "Ranged Attack" option of which to choose from. Some examples of the "enhanced" Throwing could be:

-Doubled Mark: Causes each of your throwing attacks to hit a target twice. (Timed duration of effect) »Doubled Mark Example (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-DoubledMark-Web.jpg)
------
-Goliath Shot: Causes your next throwing attack to be a head shot that may stun or cause amnesia. (Instant Single use) »Goliath Shot Example (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-GoliathShot-Web.jpg)
------
-Toe Shot: Causes your next throwing attack to be an attack that may bind or weigh a target down. (Instant Single use) »Toe Shot Example (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/soulchld4/CombatSkillJAs-ToeShot-Web.jpg)
-----
*(Multiple ideas) ——— AyinDygra ——— (Read full descriptions from post #25 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=114168&viewfull=1#post114168))

•"Thorn in the Side" - Throw a Shuriken at a spot that is hard to reach, creating great annoyance. (Provoke-like effect and Damage over Time, recast 30sec)
•"Armor Wedge" - Lodge a Shuriken in the enemy's body so those attacking the Shuriken cause extra damage to the enemy.
•"Shadow Shuriken" - For the duration, you have a chance of throwing an extra Shuriken (no ammo consumed) for each Utsusemi shadow active.
-----------------
*(Multiple ideas) ——— Karbuncle ——— (Read full descriptions from post #34 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=114259&viewfull=1#post114259))

•"Brain Spike"- Additional Effect: Amnesia. This shuriken, While it will not make up for the damage of lost swings, Might be useful for pulling, Have the Amnesia last up to ~1minute, and you have a method of pulling that prevents most/all Exp mobs from Being able to TP.
•"Silence Shuriken"- Additional Effect: Silence. This one, Like the above, Won't make up for lose TP/DMG For attack rounds, But if used for pulling on a casting mob, Might save your shadows from Diaga II or Poisonga II (which they love to cast).
-----------------

•"Syphoned Mark" ——— Kingfury ——— Enhances Throwing by causing your next throwing attack to drain either TP, MP, or HP. (Instant Single Use) ( From post #127 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/8178-Creating-Job-Abilities-for-Throwing-Shield-Parrying-and-Blocking?p=133880&viewfull=1#post133880))

Andrien

08-17-2011, 04:19 PM

Elexia

08-17-2011, 04:28 PM

Need some shuriken as strong or stronger like the ones called "artic wind" dropped from sky gods. 250 base damage and stack-able. those even have hidden effects to dispel their en-spell so i'm sure something similar can work out.

Well, those have only one purpose and one purpose alone and aren't exactly used widely (therefore they're balanced for what they do.)

Deadvinta

08-17-2011, 04:37 PM

Economizer

08-17-2011, 07:25 PM

Ninja Tools: I want to be able to create inoshishinofuda/shikanofuda/chonofuda through synthesis.

We are planning on implementing this.

Missed this. This is great, unless it requires Synergy, in which case, it is terrible unless subcraft is limited to one, such as woodworking OR clothcraft OR alchemy, but not a combination of them. But really, it would be ideal if current crafters could make the tools, even if the tools required multiple synths between different crafters before the finished product could be made.

Edit: Also, in order to not sound ungrateful, let me again say how wonderful this is, particularly for crafters. It rocks.

Panthera

08-18-2011, 06:05 AM

"blah blah blah ....

I would like “Ni” and “San” upgrades added to enfeebling ninjutsu.

If we are to add upgrades to ninjutsu, we would like them to be learned as merit points similar to red mage, so we will look into this during our adjustment of merit points.

wait what? Did I almost kinda hear that we might get Jubaku: Ni? or possibly San?

I would go to Abyssea for this. Need merit points!

What I do wonder is how broken certain San level enfeebling spells would be, particularly Hojo and Kurayami.

However...

What about Utsusemi: San?

Blue Mages already get a crazy number of shadows with Occultation. How is it that Blue Mage outshines Ninja at Shadow tanking?!

Can you hear me, Vanilla Ice?

Greatguardian

08-18-2011, 06:45 AM

Blink somehow outshines Utsusemi at Shadow tanking?

What is this?

Economizer

08-18-2011, 06:53 AM

What about Utsusemi: San?

Ichi + Ni currently gives more shadows then Occulation. Also, Utsusemi is better then Blink. Also, the recast time isn't crappy. Also, Ninja has better Parrying and Evasion then most jobs. Also, your boots should be called Utsusemi: San. Also, also... also.

Gotterdammerung

08-18-2011, 08:04 AM

I am strangely okay with this...word to your mother.

Rag top down so his moogle pom pom can blow.

Bulrogg

08-18-2011, 08:52 AM

^ Mithra's on stand-by waving just to say hi.

So.... what's this about throwing?

Regarding additional effect on shuriken, could they not add an ability similar to angon/tomahawk (but with a different 'effect') that consumes shurikens to do damage with an additional effect? The effect could be determined by what stance you are in. Yonin would proc the added effect of amnesia and Innin the additional effect of terror. Or something...

If SE listened to people like you, I would quit.

Vortex

08-18-2011, 09:51 AM

Missed this. This is great, unless it requires Synergy, in which case, it is terrible unless subcraft is limited to one, such as woodworking OR clothcraft OR alchemy, but not a combination of them. But really, it would be ideal if current crafters could make the tools, even if the tools required multiple synths between different crafters before the finished product could be made.

Edit: Also, in order to not sound ungrateful, let me again say how wonderful this is, particularly for crafters. It rocks.

Are you kidding me? i IMPLORE that it is for synergy, last thing i want is to make tools only to have random "opps it broke" and lost mats

Syngery is MUCH less stressful when crafting, you don't lose ANY materials if you fail because nothing "breaks" and HQing is relitivly easier due to how synergy.

i actually did midly level throwing back in the dark Ixion farming days..but have yet to get it past 200 due to use. would love for nin to finnaly get something to use for long range other then ninjitsu. (that actually does lots of damage)

What about Utsusemi: San?

We already get Utsusemi "San" it's called Iga Kyahan +2

Blue Mages already get a crazy number of shadows with Occultation. How is it that Blue Mage outshines Ninja at Shadow tanking?!

You definatly should be a comedian, you are one funny dude.

Economizer

08-18-2011, 09:59 AM

Syngery is MUCH less stressful when crafting, you don't lose ANY materials if you fail because nothing "breaks" and HQing is relitivly easier due to how synergy.

Ideally, they'd implement both for people that like one or the other. Crafting would high better HQ yields, Synergy would allow you to make much more at once.

My main fear about Synergy is requiring a ton of sub crafts. Maybe it is an irrational fear, but on a consumable I don't want to have to either find five people or level five crafts.

user201108211515

08-18-2011, 09:39 PM

Um.. nin has been nerfed for about 6ish years now.. may be 7.. Anyway utsuemi use to block AoEs. It was nerfed thx to rdm/nin = invincible.

So how about main job nin utsu can block aoe but not as sub job...

edit: i supose i should add AoEs would only remove 1 shadow.. I can see removing all shadows but taking no damage to be a reasonable medium.

at least then nin wouldnt be so totally sad aginst mobs that arent a joke/every aby nm...

wish12oz

08-19-2011, 01:28 AM

Shurikens are not weak weapons, but they are not used very much because they are expensive, and it is difficult to obtain a shuriken that fits your level. We are working towards addressing these issues.

How is it that the dev team doesn't understand that throwing is garbage? Throwing is not used because it is garbage more so then because shurikens are not available. Adding new shurikens is a waste of time, please do not do it, do something worthwhile for ninja instead of bullcrap no one will use except the Naruto fanboys.

Do me a favor Camate, show this to the devs:
Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.

And just to point it out, a decent ninja with just the haste spell and gear is already around 65 to 70% delay reduction. Hitting that capped 80% is very very easy.

In exchange for the effects wearing off after a predetermined time, we were able to craft effects that are very powerful. It is possible for the ability to be changed so that the effects are sustained for a long period. In this case, the effects will not wear off, and a weaker version of the effects could be maintained. However, the strong effects that exist currently would have to be weakened, so we don’t think this is desirable.

Yonin and Ininn suck and need reworked. If you can use Innin it's because the mobs you're fighting are way to hard and you do junk damage and you shouldn't be playing ninja. If you can use yonin and still hit stuff even though you use 1 handed weapons and have poor accuracy to start with, the mobs you are fighting are very weak, and you don't need a ninja to tank them anyway and you'd be better off on a different job that does more damage. To make them usable as they were probably intended, yonin needs to ADD accuracy, not remove it, so you can actually hit things and keep hate over the other melees when you're only doing 50% of the damage they are. And Innin needs the directional component removed entirely so when you actually can do decent damage and the mobs face you most of the time Innin still works.

Making these changes and allowing these abilities to be used while nin is set as a sub job could also fix the inherent problems thf and dnc have with being able to do damage as well. It's a little bit silly that 2 handed weapon users gain so much over 1 handed weapon uses when it comes to accuracy and attack honestly. I won't get into the specifics of this, but it is a real problem now, and will become much worse at 99, unless you plan to make abyssea type buffs for every event ever for the rest of FFXI's life.

Komachii

08-19-2011, 08:57 PM

[dev1024]: go to hell SE

Mmcxii

08-29-2011, 07:29 PM

Maybe this has been asked and answered, I don't know. What I would like to see most is to finally have Dokumori:Ni and Jubaku:Ni. This may seem trivial to some, but it has been a long time desire for me, and I've been playing ever since the first day of US launch.

Innin, Yonnin, I don't have much use for these, nor do I for some of the new ninjutsu spells. I'd like to see the :Ni and :San version for both of these, but I realize that is probably asking too much.

Just my $0.02.

Mmcxii

Yawaru

09-20-2011, 03:45 AM

I'd like to see NIN with a better hate tool. Something like provoke, or a ninjutsu spell. Though if they reduce the resistance to elemental spells then it probably wouldn't be much of an issue, cause 8 dmg elemental spells don't pull much hate. A decent throwing weapon would also give some spike damage for hate, but it'd have to be like 300-500 dmg in a shot otherwise you might as well just keep meleeing. I think that's the biggest problem people have with the idea of throwing on NIN, a decently geared NIN with cap haste gear and a AF3+2 head and AF body will swing nearly constantly without haste, so there's no point losing an attack round or two for a 200 dmg ranged attack. It might make Sange a useful ability if you can put out 1K+ dmg in a shot but otherwise just making shurikens available won't make people want to use them.

Kincard

12-02-2011, 12:45 AM

If we are to add upgrades to ninjutsu, we would like them to be learned as merit points similar to red mage, so we will look into this during our adjustment of merit points.

Bleh, no no no! I've been hearing this forever and it has never made sense to me. Please add in Ni spells naturally. San spells as 99-merits wouldn't be unreasonable, but making Ni spells as merits would be a waste of what otherwise would probably be in those slots. The Ni spells as natural spells would NOT be overpowered:

-Dokumori: Ni is a lame 3HP/tick poison and wouldn't be overpowered when any mage job with Poison II can do 10HP/tick. It would only be used as a quick hate-generating tool.
-Jubaku: Ni probably wouldn't be of much use either, given the comparison of Slow 1 VS Hojo: Ni, so this idea that those two spells somehow lessen the usefulness of RDM is ridiculous. The only use it would have is for cases where white magic paralyze isn't available and, again, hate generation.
-Aisha: Ichi is garbage. Blue Mage gets an equivalent potency of spell at level 40 that also does damage and has a shorter cast time. Even if the potency of Aisha: Ni wasn't higher, it'd make it worth casting just by virtue of it being so fast to pump out. It'd also gain value as a hate-generating tool. The same patch also added Infernal Scythe which I believe reduced attack about the same amount.
-Yurin: Ichi is an interesting spell, but since you want to cast it during combat, the amount of TP it cuts isn't worth 4 whole seconds.
-Myoshu: Ichi lasts way too short, so in any battle where you might want to limit your TP feeding (One that will probably last a while) you're going to want to reapply it, so you end up witht he same issue as Yurin. With this spell either increase the duration to be much longer (Utsusemi lasts 15 minutes if it's not dispelled or used up, why can't this?) or add a Ni spell with a lower casting time.
-Kakka: Ichi: Exact same problem as Myoshu. Like Myoshu, it's a bonus that would be nice to have if it wasn't so irritating/inefficient to keep the damn thing up.

Basically, stop giving NINs buffs and debuffs that only have Ichi levels. The issue isn't even the potency in a lot of cases- it's just the casting time and nothing else. I would love to have Myoshu and Yurin up a lot, but the four-second casting time is just way too much of a tradeoff. Even the 1.5 second + the spell delay from casting Nis puts a tink in the Ninja's DPS if you cast a lot of spells, so what makes the developers think 4 seconds is reasonable? The only spell where it made some sense to have the long cast of Ichi time was Migawari given the purpose of the spell. It's reasonable at low levels where everyone still takes a week to swing a weapon, but not at the high levels we're getting these spells.

Also some other general suggestions:
-Make Ninja Tool Expertise work with Futae please.
-Throwing in another vote for removing Innin's directional requirement.

Thanks.

Cdryik

12-07-2011, 08:24 AM

-Make Ninja Tool Expertise work with Futae please.

I would say to better add "Ninja Tools Expertise" as a natural job trait (without merit) and expend it the more lvl you gain, like the dual wield trait for example,

Lv.15 Ninja tools expertise (10%)
Lv.30 Ninja tools expertise II (+10%)
Lv.45 Ninja tools expertise III (+10%)
Lv.60 Ninja tools expertise IV (+10%)
Lv.75 Ninja tools expertise V (+10%)
Lv.90 Ninja tools expertise VI (+10%)
Lv.99 Master ninja tools expertise (+30%)

For a total of Ninja tools expertise of 90% at Lv.99 . (90% is the cap, so you can't go for more)

Put off the "Ninja Tools Expertise" from merit/stuff/skills.
Make things cheaper, make think more enjoyable, make people doesn't depend on money for their own jobs.

Same things with Recycle.

Nexxus - Cerberus

Eric

12-10-2011, 07:42 AM

I would say to better add "Ninja Tools Expertise" as a natural job trait (without merit) and expend it the more lvl you gain, like the dual wield trait for example,

Lv.15 Ninja tools expertise (10%)
Lv.30 Ninja tools expertise II (+10%)
Lv.45 Ninja tools expertise III (+10%)
Lv.60 Ninja tools expertise IV (+10%)
Lv.75 Ninja tools expertise V (+10%)
Lv.90 Ninja tools expertise VI (+10%)
Lv.99 Master ninja tools expertise (+30%)

For a total of Ninja tools expertise of 90% at Lv.99 . (90% is the cap, so you can't go for more)

Put off the "Ninja Tools Expertise" from merit/stuff/skills.
Make things cheaper, make think more enjoyable, make people doesn't depend on money for their own jobs.

Same things with Recycle.

Nexxus - Cerberus
Everyone who has ever crafted tools for gil just cried in pain at your terrible idea.
If NIN is too expensive for you, go play another job.

Nightfyre

12-10-2011, 09:21 AM

Everyone who has ever crafted tools for gil just cried in pain at your terrible idea.
If NIN is too expensive for you, go play another job.

Universal tools from the Bastok vendor rendered other tools almost obsolete for NIN main, so who cares? I only carry Shihei and universal tools in active inventory when on NIN due to inventory restrictions. I keep a stack of Monomi/Tonko tools in sack but that's moreso for when I'm /NIN really, on NIN I never remember/care to take them out. Only reason I'd ever consider buying non-universal tools is if I had to cover NIN procs in Voidwatch while on a different job.

The numerical values provided are pretty unrealistic, but it's not a terrible idea.

Eric

12-10-2011, 12:27 PM

Universal tools from the Bastok vendor rendered other tools almost obsolete for NIN main, so who cares? I only carry Shihei and universal tools in active inventory when on NIN due to inventory restrictions. I keep a stack of Monomi/Tonko tools in sack but that's moreso for when I'm /NIN really, on NIN I never remember/care to take them out. Only reason I'd ever consider buying non-universal tools is if I had to cover NIN procs in Voidwatch while on a different job.

The numerical values provided are pretty unrealistic, but it's not a terrible idea.

It slipped my mind that this would only apply for NIN main. I guess it's not a bad idea after all.

Concerned4FFxi

12-10-2011, 02:49 PM

When I saw this, I thought of enmity dose or however you spell that BLM ability. Something that lets you reduce your enmity to 0, turning the mob away from you. Not some new defensive ability like 3rd eye or God forbid utsusemi san.

I always said nin should be able to use an ja called "smoke bomb" like in teenage mutant ninja turtles, ninja vanish, where the nin gets the hide ability + enmity douse, 10 minute recast.

Cdryik

12-11-2011, 02:51 AM

Everyone who has ever crafted tools for gil just cried in pain at your terrible idea.
If NIN is too expensive for you, go play another job.

It slipped my mind that this would only apply for NIN main. I guess it's not a bad idea after all.

Yes, Nin only, but, the fact is, i really have thoses ninja tools expertise number (merit + yonin + AFv2+1 hands (+ katana)), so.. why not just put them as job trait, and get them off the stuff/skills/merits. So we could merit something more usefull.

Dont think i'm poor, but i just think main jobs doesn't have to be based on your moneybag to be played.

Nexxus - Cerberus

Kincard

12-11-2011, 11:58 PM

"So we could merit something more usefull."

lol

wish12oz

12-13-2011, 10:53 AM

"So we could merit something more usefull."

lol

Maybe he thinks SE will make something in the NIN merit catagory worth having and using as well as adding NTE!
I would be all for this btw, but I don't think it would ever happen~

Rohelius

12-21-2011, 10:20 AM

And ninja sucks on anything that isn't weak, and even on weak mobs, it doesn't do as much damage as real DDs.

While i dont care for trowing WS and trowing dogs i just had to say something about this lol
First off No. no.....no.
My ninja can solo Indrik just because of one spell i don't know what kind of ninja u got or hang with but things like Ningishzida and Alfard are not weak enough that other people solo them all the time.
Maybe you want to solo Ground kings and all Caturae and Zone bosses too? some zone bosses are also soloable by ninja no brew fyi~

I lol at people who always slap that "Game Mechanics" comment to the things they say as if saying it like that would make people think they have the "FFXI-Mechanics DOs and DONTs Handsbook"..
Look, if you think ninja sucks at killing shit perhaps one of those game mechanics classes you attend would show you what your ninja can do lol?

Anyway the 2hr is okay, not crazy about it but its fine.

Nightfyre

12-24-2011, 02:16 PM

Did you even read what you responded to?

wish12oz

12-25-2011, 01:44 AM

Look, if you think ninja sucks at killing shit perhaps one of those game mechanics classes you attend would show you what your ninja can do lol?

No matter how much you think the best ninja in the world can out damage a half decent warrior with an ukon, it will never happen, ever. As for the rest of what you said.... How does any of that pertain to the amount of damage NIN does compared to real DDs? Soloing Indrik means you can outparse other jobs? Cool, I wasn't aware your damage compared to others revolved around what you could solo.

As for the kind of ninja I am... I can give you a link to my guild work? or FFXIAH? I have nothing to hide.
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kaerin
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Odin/Kaerin

Psxpert2011

01-26-2012, 05:33 AM

Ninja should be taken to a new level if ppl want to complain on how expensive it is. So many ways to earn gil now'adays. Save it and buy a stack of tool-belts man!

Sage-Ninja: Comments?

vixin

04-14-2012, 08:27 PM

sage mode ftw fire water shurikens lol i was a fuma exclusive to nin works like a chakram it returns but has higher base dmg than thoes.

Babekeke

04-21-2012, 01:00 AM

Soloing Indrik means you can outparse other jobs?

If you're soloing, you always win the parse ;p

wish12oz

04-21-2012, 02:03 PM

These posts probably would have held more weight a year ago.
(`ヘ´)

But since this thread is so out of place and irrelevant now, talking of parses reminds me of what happen today. After killing Prov Watcher, the gimp WAR in my group was like "Omg I won the parse I'm the best ever." My response was "Way to not even try to proc great sword or axe like a real warrior." Then he tried to say he was better than me because I had mercurial sword on half the fight (the battle only lasted 4-5 minutes) and he outparsed me, all I could do was laugh at his incompetence. It's a lot like when Vixen posts here honestly.

Bulrogg

04-22-2012, 03:30 AM

Not sure what any of that has to do with [Job Adjustments Manifesto] NIN (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11520-Job-Adjustmentｓ-Manifesto-NIN/page7).

At any rate... I was a little un-impressed with the proposed adjustment. I think they could have added some RACC/RATK/TP gain bonus for each extra merit and capping the ability would remove the shadow penalty.

That being said. Yes, Sange is useless post 75 update other than a means to gain some TP before engaging a mob. But I am hoping SE gets around to fixing the shuriken problems and possibly some nifty new abilities/traits to play with.

It would be pretty cool to have range attacks proc like kick attacks during normal auto-attacks. Where shurkines would be consumed like virtue/magus stones to increase damage.

vixin

04-22-2012, 04:23 AM

id like to see that for ws where you would marco in shurikens and they could throw a few during ws for extra dmg. i still like that quick draw idea for shurikens where you would only need shurikne equiped it would consume nin tool not the shuriken can call it "Aura throw's" or something. :D

Darwena

04-17-2014, 04:25 PM

Zerowin

04-17-2014, 11:42 PM

San what about NI spells? I'm still for the rest of our buffs and debuffs to come out.

Darwena

04-18-2014, 03:05 PM

• All ninjutsu should get tier III (San).
• shuriken should be available and price should be same as other ammo.
• Fuda tools (universal tools) should be synthetised (craft) in some way.
• Dual wield should be augmented via job points since we lost the exclusivity.
• Mikage should be a job trait.

Camate

04-19-2014, 07:55 AM

Greetings,

So, after almost 3 years, where the update for ninja?

No upgrade San spell.

San what about NI spells? I'm still for the rest of our buffs and debuffs to come out.
A lot of the “Ni” and “San” tier ninjutsu in the game that players are currently unable to use were originally designed specifically for monsters. As the effects and stats are balanced for monsters and not players, the development team will need to look into this extremely carefully.

No new shuriken iLv 119

As there are not very many situations where throwing can be utilized, the development team would like to revamp this and add new shurikens around the same time. However, there are other implementation priorities at the moment and it will take a bit of time to address this.

Vold

04-19-2014, 11:55 AM

Greetings,

A lot of the “Ni” and “San” tier ninjutsu in the game that players are currently unable to use were originally designed specifically for monsters. As the effects and stats are balanced for monsters and not players, the development team will need to look into this extremely carefully.

Don't forget to give us back our 4th shadow from /nin in the process. It was taken away in an era from long ago and is no longer a required nerf now that 'war/nin over nin/war tanks' is long dead.

Blah

04-19-2014, 05:59 PM

As there are not very many situations where throwing can be utilized, the development team would like to revamp this and add new shurikens around the same time. However, there are other implementation priorities at the moment and it will take a bit of time to address this.
Can we take this to mean throwing weapons will be made into actual bona fide weapons to be wielded in the main hand or at least offhand slot?

Karbuncle

04-19-2014, 11:41 PM

Aha... Yah... no. That's significantly unlikely.

They probably just mean making throwing less terrible in general, maybe making it give more TP, lessening the 2s action delay... or something. I thoroughly look forward to what they have planned to make throwing more useful, because that is a huge task.

Blah

04-20-2014, 04:31 AM

Well the only way I can really see it happening is that it somehow "stays" as opposed to constantly having to whip it out then throw it so...maybe if they let ranged weapons themselves stay out as long as there's an enemy targeted or something like that? I mean if they don't move throwing to main/offhand that's just about what they'd have to do.

Darwena

04-20-2014, 05:59 AM

So why an update on Sange then? "Good new we improved sange but it's another useless merit since we don't plan to give new shurikens... We don't plan either to upgrade ninjutsu in case ninja could be fun to play again..." Now with Sony selling Square Enix, I doubt ninja will get real improvement... What a waste...

Darwena

04-20-2014, 06:01 AM

Shuriken should be throwed like a proc. 25% throwing an equipped shuriken will attacking with main hand.

Kaiichi

04-24-2014, 02:18 AM

Going off that 25% Proc. thingy, what if while Shurikens are equipped (in ammo) that the have a chance to be thrown instantly in a way smiler to the way a Monk uses Kick Attacks? Maybe even add a new job trate to 50+ NIN?

Lunatone

04-25-2014, 02:45 AM

Ninja feedback!

Go ninja, go ninja, go! <3

Shurikens are not weak weapons, but they are not used very much because they are expensive, and it is difficult to obtain a shuriken that fits your level. We are working towards addressing these issues.

Regarding adjustments to ninja itself, we are planning on focusing on merit point categories initially. Concurrently, we would like to work on adding high level shuriken and increasing accessibility. We have received requests for adding additional effects and enfeebling effects to shuriken, but it would be very inconvenient to have to carry various types of shuriken in addition to ninja tools, so we plan to continue to separately utilize ninjutsu for enfeebling effects and shuriken for damage.

In exchange for the effects wearing off after a predetermined time, we were able to craft effects that are very powerful. It is possible for the ability to be changed so that the effects are sustained for a long period. In this case, the effects will not wear off, and a weaker version of the effects could be maintained. However, the strong effects that exist currently would have to be weakened, so we don’t think this is desirable.

For a job that has the versatility of not only dealing damage but also the ability to tank quite efficiently, we don’t have any plans of adding an ability that controls hate.

The power of elemental ninjutsu can be increased through ninjutsu skill, skill bonuses, abilities such as Innin and Futae, and gear with magic attack bonus. We believe that elemental ninjutsu is sufficiently effective when used in conjunction with the above. However, we do think there is an issue with accuracy, so we are looking into a solution.

Ninjutsu doesn’t have the downside of being detected by magic aggressive enemies when casting, so it’s much easier to recast ninjutsu than magic spells. Thus, the duration of ninjutsu is shorter than magic spells.

We have no plans of adding recovery type spells for ninjas. We would like players to choose a job with recovery spells as their support job or have their party members cover them.

If we are to add upgrades to ninjutsu, we would like them to be learned as merit points similar to red mage, so we will look into this during our adjustment of merit points.

We have decided that ninjas will be weak against AoE spells in exchange for having strong defense against single attacks, with Utsusemi being the focal point.

We are planning on implementing this.

Well as someone who plays nin and has been playing nin for years I don't think it's as versatile as you guys keep claiming it to be in today's content. As a tank it's alright because of shadows yes, but literally everything wipes shadows with either spells, multi hit WS's or some mobs just wipe multiple shadows on basic attacks. Our evasion means almost nothing now and our damage is waaaay too lackluster.

I dont see a huge deal with ninjutsu, though i'd like a wider variety of spells, not saying they need Ni/San tier's but just more useful ones because atm some are hardly even worth the cast time and most of ours get overwritten by RDMs. Maybe this is where you guys meant for Nin to be in the game atm and I do realize it had its time to shine in the past; however I feel its just one of the more useless jobs now. RUN/NIN does everything nin can do just tons better, and I realize that i'm not the best geared nin nor the best nin player around but I know i'm pretty good at nin and I really think you guys need to take a good look at it and a few other jobs just to keep them from falling off and being completely useless.

And I am completely for having shuriken that have debuffs on them! Sorta makes sense you know...ninja as an assassin...throwing poison covered knives etc. I think it would be really interesting, and you also said it would be inconvenient to carry so many different types of shuriken? Uh..no? everyone's already got soo many storage items, not to try to speak for anyone else but even after I gear up nin with WS sets tp eva etc I still have plenty of space. Most ninja's carry universal tools to save inventory space and I dont think any of us would complain about losing ~4 slots for shuriken that were worth our time having and actually were useful

WoW

05-01-2014, 10:31 AM

Ninja feedback!

Go ninja, go ninja, go! <3

Shurikens are not weak weapons, but they are not used very much because they are expensive, and it is difficult to obtain a shuriken that fits your level. We are working towards addressing these issues.

Regarding adjustments to ninja itself, we are planning on focusing on merit point categories initially. Concurrently, we would like to work on adding high level shuriken and increasing accessibility. We have received requests for adding additional effects and enfeebling effects to shuriken, but it would be very inconvenient to have to carry various types of shuriken in addition to ninja tools, so we plan to continue to separately utilize ninjutsu for enfeebling effects and shuriken for damage.

In exchange for the effects wearing off after a predetermined time, we were able to craft effects that are very powerful. It is possible for the ability to be changed so that the effects are sustained for a long period. In this case, the effects will not wear off, and a weaker version of the effects could be maintained. However, the strong effects that exist currently would have to be weakened, so we don’t think this is desirable.

For a job that has the versatility of not only dealing damage but also the ability to tank quite efficiently, we don’t have any plans of adding an ability that controls hate.

The power of elemental ninjutsu can be increased through ninjutsu skill, skill bonuses, abilities such as Innin and Futae, and gear with magic attack bonus. We believe that elemental ninjutsu is sufficiently effective when used in conjunction with the above. However, we do think there is an issue with accuracy, so we are looking into a solution.

Ninjutsu doesn’t have the downside of being detected by magic aggressive enemies when casting, so it’s much easier to recast ninjutsu than magic spells. Thus, the duration of ninjutsu is shorter than magic spells.

We have no plans of adding recovery type spells for ninjas. We would like players to choose a job with recovery spells as their support job or have their party members cover them.

If we are to add upgrades to ninjutsu, we would like them to be learned as merit points similar to red mage, so we will look into this during our adjustment of merit points.

We have decided that ninjas will be weak against AoE spells in exchange for having strong defense against single attacks, with Utsusemi being the focal point.

We are planning on implementing this.

Shurikens are far from weak weapons. As someone whom used them exclusively at lower lvls; there were extremely strong. berserk + manji shurikens in lvl 50+ colibri parties was fun^^ I would also sange birds in abyssea with Fumas. However, I cannot justify using shurikens atm; currently, they are weak compared to the lvl119 katanas. Also, those Igas are crazy hard to craft.

Magic damage can get pretty high from nin spells though; i agree.

I cannot believe more nins were not using these at lower lvls, the lower ones are pretty cheap and they were a great hate holding tool from lvl 18-60; pre jin. I would recommend these to any low lvl nin; they do get rare post manji; unless you can craft them. I had a crafter on bismarck make these for me; until I lvled smithing. Fun times with throwing^^

Dragomair

05-01-2014, 03:22 PM

Ninja feedback!

Go ninja, go ninja, go! <3

Shurikens are not weak weapons, but they are not used very much because they are expensive, and it is difficult to obtain a shuriken that fits your level. We are working towards addressing these issues.

Regarding adjustments to ninja itself, we are planning on focusing on merit point categories initially. Concurrently, we would like to work on adding high level shuriken and increasing accessibility. We have received requests for adding additional effects and enfeebling effects to shuriken, but it would be very inconvenient to have to carry various types of shuriken in addition to ninja tools, so we plan to continue to separately utilize ninjutsu for enfeebling effects and shuriken for damage.

In exchange for the effects wearing off after a predetermined time, we were able to craft effects that are very powerful. It is possible for the ability to be changed so that the effects are sustained for a long period. In this case, the effects will not wear off, and a weaker version of the effects could be maintained. However, the strong effects that exist currently would have to be weakened, so we don’t think this is desirable.

For a job that has the versatility of not only dealing damage but also the ability to tank quite efficiently, we don’t have any plans of adding an ability that controls hate.

The power of elemental ninjutsu can be increased through ninjutsu skill, skill bonuses, abilities such as Innin and Futae, and gear with magic attack bonus. We believe that elemental ninjutsu is sufficiently effective when used in conjunction with the above. However, we do think there is an issue with accuracy, so we are looking into a solution.

Ninjutsu doesn’t have the downside of being detected by magic aggressive enemies when casting, so it’s much easier to recast ninjutsu than magic spells. Thus, the duration of ninjutsu is shorter than magic spells.

We have no plans of adding recovery type spells for ninjas. We would like players to choose a job with recovery spells as their support job or have their party members cover them.

If we are to add upgrades to ninjutsu, we would like them to be learned as merit points similar to red mage, so we will look into this during our adjustment of merit points.

We have decided that ninjas will be weak against AoE spells in exchange for having strong defense against single attacks, with Utsusemi being the focal point.

We are planning on implementing this.

Just my idea for improving shuriken for level 99+:
(probably been suggested before.)
Maybe a job point or merit job ability (that would work similar to the rune enchantment job ability for RUN) that would add certain effects to the ammo?
(Example:
Enchantment #1: Silence effect
Enchantment #2: Stun effect
Enchantment #3: Attack down effect
Enchantment #4: Evasion down effect
Enchantment #5: Accuracy down effect)

There are probably many more effects that would be better, but I can't think of anything that wouldn't be thought of as 'game-breaking'.

Camate

06-20-2014, 03:12 AM

Greetings, everyone.

Bumping this thread to share a bit about future ninja adjustments.

Moving forward we would like to make adjustments to ninja that improve on their ability to switch between Yonin and Innin allowing them to function as a tank or as a damage dealer when necessary.

In the June version update we added a ninjutsu that facilitates enmity generation and another ninjutsu that suppresses enmity generation.

Though it will be after the August version update, we are planning to make adjustments to their damage dealing capabilities. We’ll be introducing high item level throwing equipment and making it so throwing can be put to good use, and additionally we will be changing the effect of Sange.

Also, we will be adding new katanas as rewards for wildskeeper reives in the July version update.

Once there are more details, I’ll be sure to share!

Raydeus

06-20-2014, 03:28 AM

Woot, how did you know I was going to level NIN-NIN to 99 around that time? =P

WoW

06-20-2014, 03:52 AM

Nice^^

Throwing is (Or was....) too good to be wasted.

WKR katanas with +crit could equate to some insane throwing damage if the shurikens are lvl119-ish.

Edit: Wonder how they will make throwing serviceable vs katanas? Especially with the OAT augments. Either way, nin is gonna be insane^^

Zerowin

06-20-2014, 03:57 AM

While your throwing out good news left and right will you also change our One hours?

Vivivivi

06-20-2014, 04:29 AM

While your throwing out good news left and right will you also change our One hours?

I see what you did there.

WoW

06-20-2014, 05:41 AM

As it pertains to the "High level throwing equipment," I assume that nins will not be the only job receiving gear which helps them; perhaps they will introduce nin and other emp armor?

Orestes

06-20-2014, 03:37 PM

This sounds like great news, and a step in the right direction.

It would also be very nice if the development team would consider lowering the penalty on TP return from equipping large amounts of dual wield. It doesn't need to be changed much, but a subtle adjustment would go a long ways in balancing NIN against other damage dealers.

The changes brought forth in the June update are very noticeable for single one-handed weapons, and even 2-handed weapons in some cases. Sadly, NIN gains TP about the same as before. (1-2% difference)

Looking forward to the WKR / Delve Katanas and Throwing stars!

Thanks!

WoW

06-21-2014, 02:09 AM

If nin receives two OAT Katanas, that will be insane on its' own, with DW penalty and all :)

Zerowin

06-21-2014, 08:46 AM

Oh better question will we finally get Ni version of ninjustu?
Oh and why are we just now getting these weapons?

Babekeke

06-22-2014, 01:49 AM

If nin receives two OAT Katanas, that will be insane on its' own, with DW penalty and all :)

Except that with only 188 skill instead of 242 like you get on 119 weapons, you're never going to hit anything, regardless of how many times you swing. I don't quite understand how 54 skill over 4 levels is possibly balanced.

WoW

06-23-2014, 04:36 AM

Except that with only 188 skill instead of 242 like you get on 119 weapons, you're never going to hit anything, regardless of how many times you swing. I don't quite understand how 54 skill over 4 levels is possibly balanced.

Did not experience acc issues on normal with the bst axes, don't know about difficult; 119 crap, you should be fine. That is just me, not gonna speak for anyone else; perhaps I should say "for me, those katanas will be insane."

WoW

06-23-2014, 04:42 AM

Except that with only 188 skill instead of 242 like you get on 119 weapons, you're never going to hit anything, regardless of how many times you swing. I don't quite understand how 54 skill over 4 levels is possibly balanced.

Also, i was referring to the tp penalty XD; other jobs have the OAT 115 weapons as well. Nin is not a "meh" bad job; You even mentioned how Nin can tank well in AAs. Just use a 119 weapon if you run into acc issues "Shrugs"

Camate

06-25-2014, 03:34 AM

Greetings,

It would also be very nice if the development team would consider lowering the penalty on TP return from equipping large amounts of dual wield. It doesn't need to be changed much, but a subtle adjustment would go a long ways in balancing NIN against other damage dealers.

Currently the system has been set to cap attack delay so it cannot go lower than 75 regardless of how much haste and dual wield you have. This was a necessary limitation so that animations could keep up with the shortened attack delay. However, we understand that this limitation has created a disadvantage to TP gained when stacking dual wield, and we would like to improve this as we move forward.

We’ll be looking into adjustments to the dual wield feature after the September version update. As this is something that is directly tied to battle balance, it will require a bit of time to look into.

Orestes

06-25-2014, 04:28 AM

Genoxd

06-25-2014, 02:08 PM

Greetings,

Currently the system has been set to cap attack delay so it cannot go lower than 75 regardless of how much haste and dual wield you have. This was a necessary limitation so that animations could keep up with the shortened attack delay. However, we understand that this limitation has created a disadvantage to TP gained when stacking dual wield, and we would like to improve this as we move forward.

We’ll be looking into adjustments to the dual wield feature after the September version update. As this is something that is directly tied to battle balance, it will require a bit of time to look into.

Obviously the community might be wrong, but isn't the cap 80%? Taken from bluegartr wiki

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Attack_speed

"Damage per second goes to infinity as Delay goes to 0, so Square has placed several caps on the Haste categories.

Equipment haste has its own cap of 25% (256/1024).
Magic haste caps at 43.75% (448/1024).
Job abilities haste is the third and final category, and it also caps at 25% (256/1024).

In addition to this, there is a general 80% Delay reduction cap that was added to the game as delay-reducing options became more readily available. Before this, it was possible to attain Haste values up to 93.75%, as can be seen in the UNCTGTG's video below. All types of Delay Reduction fall under this cap, from Sword Strap to Martial Arts to Dual Wield. In order to calculate your current delay reduction (and how close you are to the cap), you need to determine your % delay by multiplying all your Delay reductions together. "

Trumpy

06-25-2014, 02:44 PM

Camate

06-28-2014, 02:19 AM

Obviously the community might be wrong, but isn't the cap 80%?

Yes, 80% is the cap. Put in another way, regardless of how much haste and dual wield you stack, the system is set so you cannot exceed 20% of the original attack delay. The value used in my previous post was the actual delay value.

MDenham

06-28-2014, 12:53 PM

I dont think he meant cannot go lower than 75 % delay reduction. i think 75 is the actual delay number. The shortest amount of time possible between strikes before animation looks too wanky. Like how Sandung has a delay of 200.This does mean that, under certain circumstances, the maximum delay reduction is less than 80%. (You'd need weapons with combined delay of less than 375 for this to happen.)

Camate

07-19-2014, 03:39 AM

Greetings,

Previously I mentioned that we will be adding new throwing weapons and changing the way Sange functions, but to start out the team is currently looking into changing the application of shurikens for the September version update and plans to follow-up on this with the Sange changes.

Also, in the August version update we will be adding the “Max HP Boost” trait to a couple of jobs which includes ninja. At level 99 ninja will have the fifth tier of this trait, which will make them stronger than before.

Malthar

07-19-2014, 06:01 AM

How does having more hp make a job stronger?

Zerowin

07-19-2014, 06:11 AM

I don't think it will just be the HP boost we will be getting, I'm sure we will get more.

Louispv

07-19-2014, 07:18 AM

How does having more hp make a job stronger?

The entire reason MNK is useful but other melees aren't is that they have enough HP to actually absorb enemy attacks without dying. If NIN had as many (or more, considering BLM's conserve mp I vs GEO's conserve mp VII) HP bonuses as MNK, they'd be a lot more useful as DD's. Especially since other DD's have to lose /WAR to get shadows from /NIN, but a NIN can still sub WAR. Damned near every fight now has "Keep shadows up, or be one shotted by AoE's" as the basic rule now, anyway.

Zerowin

07-19-2014, 09:20 AM

What type of AOE's are we talking here magic based?

Babekeke

07-19-2014, 05:38 PM

What type of AOE's are we talking here magic based?

Most of the TP moves in the AA fights.

Louispv

07-19-2014, 07:23 PM

Most of the TP moves in the AA fights.

And Ouryu, both dukes, the shadow lord, the sagelord, and you have to block ws's from tenzen and the shikarees with shadows, because even a PLD with ochain won't always survive a 3 step skillchain above Normal difficulty.

Tiktaks

07-19-2014, 07:24 PM

Most of the TP moves in the AA fights.

Those are physical, thus why many of them can be absorbed with shadows.

Ophannus

07-19-2014, 09:33 PM

An extra 250 HP on NIN is gonna be sweet, also makes /NIN a bit better.

FrankReynolds

07-20-2014, 10:10 AM

The entire reason MNK is useful but other melees aren't is that they have enough HP to actually absorb enemy attacks without dying. If NIN had as many (or more, considering BLM's conserve mp I vs GEO's conserve mp VII) HP bonuses as MNK, they'd be a lot more useful as DD's. Especially since other DD's have to lose /WAR to get shadows from /NIN, but a NIN can still sub WAR. Damned near every fight now has "Keep shadows up, or be one shotted by AoE's" as the basic rule now, anyway.

In that case, paladin is the best DD evar!

No seriously though, Monks pump out a crap load of damage AND don't get one shotted. The first part is probably the most important in most cases though.

Afania

07-20-2014, 05:57 PM

In that case, paladin is the best DD evar!

No seriously though, Monks pump out a crap load of damage AND don't get one shotted. The first part is probably the most important in most cases though.

PLD's dmg is crap, NIN's dmg is a lot closer to a real DD. Also I'm pretty sure MNK is no longer the top DPS after last update, they just have higher HP.

Babekeke

07-20-2014, 06:03 PM

Those are physical, thus why many of them can be absorbed with shadows.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to clarify that. I thought it was obvious?

Malithar

07-20-2014, 10:59 PM

I'm not sure why you felt the need to clarify that. I thought it was obvious?

You responded that to someone saying "What type of AOE's are we talking here magic based?" Seemed reason enough to clarify. :P

Nin DD still not quite high enough to just up and take them along to fill in for a top tier run, but well geared Nin are pretty useful for melee strats on most BCs with their mix of just nice enough DD and survivability. Capped haste Migawari is really nice for things like AA EV, Arch Duke Kam, etc. And for when you get screwed by the mob doing it back-to-back, you can use Mijin to shed weakness.

Zarchery

07-21-2014, 03:48 AM

No one is trolling. Nin is not prohibitively expensive, outside of perhaps new players who still need to obtain utsusemi:ni. For anyone who has a lvl90 job however, getting gil to pay for ninja tools should prove to be no challenge.

Edit: also, people keep using that word... I do not think it means what they think it means.

I thought Inafking had been banned. Bagel, I should have warned you last week, Inafking uses the word "troll" to describe anyone who disagrees with him. Best leave the guy alone.

Dragoy

07-21-2014, 05:11 AM

[...] Bagel, I should have warned you last week [...]
You may need to go back a bit further than last week, considering the age of that particular post. ^^;

Babekeke

07-21-2014, 02:32 PM

You responded that to someone saying "What type of AOE's are we talking here magic based?" Seemed reason enough to clarify. :P

Well, I could have just responded with the word "No", but I needed 10 characters ^^

I figured by giving an example of when shadows are required that he could go and look them up himself. Shadows have never absorbed magical AOEs so it really didn't seem like it needed explaining further.

Malithar

07-21-2014, 03:45 PM

Shadows have never absorbed magical AOEs so it really didn't seem like it needed explaining further.

Thats not quite true though. They don't absorb -ga, -ja, and -ra, those wipe them and still do damage to the character. Admittedly, most magical TP moves either go through shadows or wipe them, similar to the spells, but there's a fair number that Utsu still works against. Case in point, Eald'narche (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/The_Celestial_Nexus) in Celestial Nexus. He likes to spam his Vortex and Stellar Burst quite a bit during his second phase, but as long as he doesn't cast a -ga prior to them, 2-3 shadows will absorb it.

Louispv

07-21-2014, 04:06 PM

In that case, paladin is the best DD evar!

No seriously though, Monks pump out a crap load of damage AND don't get one shotted. The first part is probably the most important in most cases though.
MNK never really did the most damage (Except for the first few weeks of delve, where oats were easy to get, but no one had any other 119 weapons because they came from harder bosses.) they just didn't die nearly so easily. Every fight was "Keep mantra up full time so nothing kills you" or bust.

And especially after the skillchain update, every 2 handed job can outdo MNK with a good enough store TP set. They however, will die horribly and never get to use it. Damage barely matters anyway. Some people cleared Very Difficult fights with just PLD and some PUP's as DD's. (Because they can dump all their hate onto a puppet outside AoE range every minute and send it away, thus never pulling hate.) And every delve boss can be killed by BRD/1 DD/WHM. The enemies don't have that much HP or that much defense. Surviving the fight's the hard part.

FrankReynolds

07-23-2014, 05:16 PM

PLD's dmg is crap, NIN's dmg is a lot closer to a real DD. Also I'm pretty sure MNK is no longer the top DPS after last update, they just have higher HP.

That was sarcasm. People aren't going to start bringing ninjas to everything just because they got a few more hit points.

MNK never really did the most damage (Except for the first few weeks of delve, where oats were easy to get, but no one had any other 119 weapons because they came from harder bosses.) they just didn't die nearly so easily. Every fight was "Keep mantra up full time so nothing kills you" or bust.

And especially after the skillchain update, every 2 handed job can outdo MNK with a good enough store TP set. They however, will die horribly and never get to use it. Damage barely matters anyway. Some people cleared Very Difficult fights with just PLD and some PUP's as DD's. (Because they can dump all their hate onto a puppet outside AoE range every minute and send it away, thus never pulling hate.) And every delve boss can be killed by BRD/1 DD/WHM. The enemies don't have that much HP or that much defense. Surviving the fight's the hard part.

I'll believe it when I start seeing shouts for ninjas in PUG. Until then, the extra HP is pretty much useless.

Damane

07-30-2014, 06:11 AM

PLD's dmg is crap, NIN's dmg is a lot closer to a real DD. Also I'm pretty sure MNK is no longer the top DPS after last update, they just have higher HP.

that depends on the pld, i have seen plds do respectable dmg while main tanking. it all depends if they get the same proper support like any DD would get. obviously a pld with only shit buffs like ballad isnt gonna pull his weigh, but an ochain pld that doesnt have to worry about getting 1 shot due to ochain and/or sherzo can pump out respectable dmg if buffed like a melee. PLD is also one of the jobs to reach some of the highest accuracy numbers by itself by gear/selfbuffs without outside buffs.

Grekumah

08-06-2014, 04:00 AM

Zerowin

08-06-2014, 05:27 AM

So does that mean we can look forward to seeing Ni version's or even San in the future?

WoW

08-06-2014, 05:29 AM

PLD's dmg is crap, NIN's dmg is a lot closer to a real DD. Also I'm pretty sure MNK is no longer the top DPS after last update, they just have higher HP.

I agree with this.

Also; nin are very good dd, but if you are comparing them to a sam; yea......sams are just plain broken atm (or rngs whom have the comfort of safety and great damage).

If shurikens and Ninjutsu are brought back, nin will be insane. I miss the utility at lower lvls; thrashing colibri outside of Whitegate with manji and the elemental wheel in the 40s. Good times.

Selindrile

08-06-2014, 08:15 AM

Hello,

The development team will be looking into adjustments for several ninjutsu for the future, but first they are prioritizing adjustments for shuriken. They’d like to make ninjutsu easier to use in battles which are becoming faster paced.

I feel bad for picking on so much of what you say today Grekumah, but, I'm pretty sure almost nobody thinks this is a good idea, at all, throwing weapons, jeez.

WoW

08-06-2014, 09:13 AM

I feel bad for picking on so much of what you say today Grekumah, but, I'm pretty sure almost nobody thinks this is a good idea, at all, throwing weapons, jeez.

Throwing was and can be great.

Ppl bash throwing, but it was a nins most explosive form of offense at lower lvls (From my experience).

Not sure what they have in mind, but I am all in on shurikens; we have two A skills, which are hardly used now :(. An instant damaging attack with skill-chain properties (Akin to sam's chain-bound, but damaging) would be nice :). Nin has all these skill-chain and magic bonus traits, why not put em to work? Shurikens can work, even in this fast paced era (Instant spike damage, etc).

dasva

08-06-2014, 11:42 AM

Throwing was and can be great.

Ppl bash throwing, but it was a nins most explosive form of offense at lower lvls (From my experience).

Not sure what they have in mind, but I am all in on shurikens; we have two A skills, which are hardly used now :(. An instant damaging attack with skill-chain properties (Akin to sam's chain-bound, but damaging) would be nice :). Nin has all these skill-chain and magic bonus traits, why not put em to work? Shurikens can work, even in this fast paced era (Instant spike damage, etc).
Yes and no. Part of what made it great at lower lvls is 2 things.

1. They had really high base dmgs and low delays. For example let's say you were level 30 throwing around Juji Shuriken. They have 41 dmg and take 1.75 seconds to throw... technically there is that wait time after throwing where you can't throw again but auto attacks work then and I'd assume you are meleeing so that time isn't really lost since you'd be meleeing then either way. Compared to the best kat at the level (Nikkariaoe) having 19 dmg and base 3.8 seconds to melee. Sure that will be slightly lower with dw trait but throwing would still be almost twice as fast AND be twice the dmg. So for them to make throwing a shuriken do as much dmg per hit compared to melee hit they'd have to make a shuriken first with 242 throwing skill and then also give it something like 250 base dmg.

2. We have a ton more delay reduction compared to low levels but not really snapshot for nin (well and a lot more multi hit). Like at that level 30 nin was probably rocking like no haste and just the normal 15% dual wield so total of 15% delay reduction while now can almost guarantee they will be capped so from 30 to now we'd see a 325% increase in attack speed. While for snapshot I know not all pieces have been tested but nin is only has gear for around 20%... yay 25% increase in throw speed. Well and there is the new rdm spell I suppose but that hasn't really been quantified and iirc it shares a slot with haste so that could effect your meleeing so probably not a good idea for nin. So for them to experience a similar increase in speed that melee gets over the lvls they'd have to either give them basically more snapshot than rng gets on it's own or lower the delay of the shurikens a lot....

Alternatively instead of making throwing faster they could just make you throw more... like for example turn Sange into a 3rd stance where instead of wearing off instantly it lasts 5 min and only has 3 min recast and while it's up will always throw shuriken equal to the number of shadows+1 you have. And get the full tp from that of course. As far as what to do with the merits you could possibly just shift everything over one. Like just make the ja available with no merits. Then make each merit give it's same old +25% chance not to consume with 4 being no shadow consumption and 5 merits being no shadows consumed and 25% chance to give you a shadow

And of course these shuriken can't cost huge amounts like they used to at higher levels and possibly need to give them recycle too.

Either way it would take major major changes to make it good. Like I said huge Ds on it and the ability to throw a lot more in a smaller amount of time then we can now and of course the ilvl skill

Kari

08-06-2014, 12:46 PM

Hello,

The development team will be looking into adjustments for several ninjutsu for the future, but first they are prioritizing adjustments for shuriken. They’d like to make ninjutsu easier to use in battles which are becoming faster paced.

Please think of Dancer and any other job that loses a ton of damage from JA delay.

WoW

08-06-2014, 01:47 PM

Yes and no. Part of what made it great at lower lvls is 2 things.

1. They had really high base dmgs and low delays. For example let's say you were level 30 throwing around Juji Shuriken. They have 41 dmg and take 1.75 seconds to throw... technically there is that wait time after throwing where you can't throw again but auto attacks work then and I'd assume you are meleeing so that time isn't really lost since you'd be meleeing then either way. Compared to the best kat at the level (Nikkariaoe) having 19 dmg and base 3.8 seconds to melee. Sure that will be slightly lower with dw trait but throwing would still be almost twice as fast AND be twice the dmg. So for them to make throwing a shuriken do as much dmg per hit compared to melee hit they'd have to make a shuriken first with 242 throwing skill and then also give it something like 250 base dmg.

2. We have a ton more delay reduction compared to low levels but not really snapshot for nin (well and a lot more multi hit). Like at that level 30 nin was probably rocking like no haste and just the normal 15% dual wield so total of 15% delay reduction while now can almost guarantee they will be capped so from 30 to now we'd see a 325% increase in attack speed. While for snapshot I know not all pieces have been tested but nin is only has gear for around 20%... yay 25% increase in throw speed. Well and there is the new rdm spell I suppose but that hasn't really been quantified and iirc it shares a slot with haste so that could effect your meleeing so probably not a good idea for nin. So for them to experience a similar increase in speed that melee gets over the lvls they'd have to either give them basically more snapshot than rng gets on it's own or lower the delay of the shurikens a lot....

Alternatively instead of making throwing faster they could just make you throw more... like for example turn Sange into a 3rd stance where instead of wearing off instantly it lasts 5 min and only has 3 min recast and while it's up will always throw shuriken equal to the number of shadows+1 you have. And get the full tp from that of course. As far as what to do with the merits you could possibly just shift everything over one. Like just make the ja available with no merits. Then make each merit give it's same old +25% chance not to consume with 4 being no shadow consumption and 5 merits being no shadows consumed and 25% chance to give you a shadow

And of course these shuriken can't cost huge amounts like they used to at higher levels and possibly need to give them recycle too.

Either way it would take major major changes to make it good. Like I said huge Ds on it and the ability to throw a lot more in a smaller amount of time then we can now and of course the ilvl skill

Instant/damaging was mentioned in my first post.

I also bolded was. Obviously, i do not use shurikens on my lvl99 nin lol^^ Usually, when I back shurikens, ppl throw the game mechanics and whatnot at me lol^^ i understand where you are coming from Dasva, as a 99 nin, I took all of this into consideration; delay (Throwing and melee). Even with 300dmg shurikens, sange must deal weaponskill -esque damage to compete. i used sange pre-ilvl, but only in abyssea (on birds), were it would crit often on distant mobs (And only on pulls). 2.5-9k on a distance mob is not too shabby. I made my own fumas and money is not really an issue now and days (Salvage,dyna farming, etc). Sange was useless outside, because it would not crit as often. In abyssea, i had a macro for distance mobs out of range. Ppl would say, "Wtf did you hit that bird with" good times^^

I stand firm, throwing can work; for instance, in an old throwing thread, I mentioned an instant damaging throwing ability, akin to konzen-ittai which chainbounds the mob; which allows the nin to follow up with a weaponskill. i mean, nin has burst and skillchain bonus, not entirely far-fetched. Throwing can be done; it is not impossible. Example scenario, throwing skill > 6k damage > chainbound > Blade:whatever > 7k damage > darkness/light > 7k etc. Not saying they will do that, just something I am throwing out there. Dnc can self chain as-well as sam; they both have bonuses. We have bonuses, but cannot skillchain without the aid of another individual.

dasva

08-06-2014, 02:39 PM

Instant/damaging was mentioned in my first post.

I also bolded was. Obviously, i do not use shurikens on my lvl99 nin lol^^ Usually, when I back shurikens, ppl throw the game mechanics and whatnot at me lol^^ i understand where you are coming from Dasva, as a 99 nin, I took all of this into consideration; delay (Throwing and melee). Even with 300dmg shurikens, sange must deal weaponskill -esque damage to compete. i used sange pre-ilvl, but only in abyssea (on birds), were it would crit often on distant mobs (And only on pulls). 2.5-9k on a distance mob is not too shabby. I made my own fumas and money is not really an issue now and days (Salvage,dyna farming, etc). Sange was useless outside, because it would not crit as often. In abyssea, i had a macro for distance mobs out of range. Ppl would say, "Wtf did you hit that bird with" good times^^

I stand firm, throwing can work; for instance, in an old throwing thread, I mentioned an instant damaging throwing ability, akin to konzen-ittai which chainbounds the mob; which allows the nin to follow up with a weaponskill. i mean, nin has burst and skillchain bonus, not entirely far-fetched. Throwing can be done; it is not impossible. Example scenario, throwing skill > 6k damage > chainbound > Blade:whatever > 7k damage > darkness/light > 7k etc. Not saying they will do that, just something I am throwing out there. Dnc can self chain as-well as sam; they both have bonuses. We have bonuses, but cannot skillchain without the aid of another individual.

You vaguely mentioned it could be nice...

But yeah was just listing why it worked at lower levels that it wouldn't at higher if they just did a normal let's raise dmg a little and give it some skill ilvl treatment and specifics on why and what it would need to be as competitive as it was at lower levels.

I'll disagree on money... sure you can make it but in this day and age spending time making money just to refill ammo is too much of a time sink if it's costly in comparison to how it used to be and how it was at times for rng. It would discourage a rather large part of the community if it's decently costly. Why do that when you can put that alex towards a mythic eh? Especially since can pretty much bet your bottom dollar it's not going to make a huge difference in nin dps

I kinda like the skillchain idea... maybe get real creative and make it quickdrawish. Infuse your shuriken with a skillchain element! Maybe give an extra bonus to like a special eneffect

WoW

08-06-2014, 03:08 PM

I cannot disagree with others play-style, so I agree; it can be costly for some. Worth (Of an item) varies among individuals.

I practically have relics on stand-by, lol, in the form of money. My old LS assumed i was building a relic because I stayed in dyna. Personally, I will never make a REM. SE has a habit of releasing equally or near equal strong/obtainable melee weapons. Not sure about instruments, staffs, etc. I could knock out the non-alex stages of mythics, but it is not worth it to me. I main bst and nin, i personally use delve or high tier battle weapons. To each its own I suppose. These new skirmish weapons have me intrigued, i have a good feeling about these.

But yea, i was thinking quickdraw -esque or yag speed. The infusion/eneffect is also a nice idea^^ Hopefully SE delivers, I don't see stronger shurikens being used, unless it is something innovative. Plain ol' throwing without or with the massive delay will not cut it; unless the shurikens deal an insane amount of damage or contains a special effect.

Sapphires

08-09-2014, 03:26 AM

I'd bother playing NIN again if:
Sange was the equivalent of a potent barrage (damage-wise and gave much more TP return, also put on 2-3min timer not 5)
had at least a level 2 skillchain property on use so NIN could self skillchain for spike damage+enmity.

Maybe i'm spoiled playing blu/dnc/sam and used to the ability to self skillchain to make things more fun.
The only time ninja gets interesting for me is with /sam subjob, you can sekkanoki and the nin can then self skillchain and ninjitsu magicburst,
but this is not a practical thing to do in serious party battle content - you get stuck with /war subjob forever.

Anyways if you look at samurai main job, it is just flat out broken right now since they can tank, and do absurd self skillchain damage,
so there isnt really a reason to bring a ninja main job to anything unless you revamp ninja damage and make throwing/sange huge burst TP+damage on par with ranger.

FrankReynolds

08-11-2014, 06:21 AM

There's a huge post on what they would have to do to make throwing a viable option for damage dealing and it's almost universally agreed that SE will never do that. Look it up. This is a huge waste of time.

Zerowin

08-14-2014, 02:19 PM

Still means we can't try to get through to them maybe someday we will.

FrankReynolds

08-14-2014, 03:13 PM

This post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5423-A-Ninja-without-Throwing...?p=74737&viewfull=1#post74737) has dated weapons, but the basic premise is still the same. It explains what would have to be done to make throwing relevant.

Ninja throwing will probably never be a thing that people do for anything more than fun and laughs. Not that I wouldn't love to go ninja to a bunch of AA fights instead of "RNG all the things".

Zerowin

08-14-2014, 04:10 PM

I have really great friends that let me come ninja, I just wish Shadows didn't have a long recast time

Dragoy

08-14-2014, 07:32 PM

Hmmm...

There's a huge post on what they would have to do to make throwing a viable option for damage dealing and it's almost universally agreed that SE will never do that. Look it up. This is a huge waste of time.

Well there is this...

The development team will be looking into adjustments for several ninjutsu for the future, but first they are prioritizing adjustments for shuriken.

Sure, it's not a huge one, that post, and it doesn't say they are planning on making it a viable option, but you know, they're doing something to it. ^^

I remember they mentioned this already a while ago, but I forget the exact words from back then. I'm also too sleepy to find it right now, as it is of so little importance!

(Might have been this or this or this or this. I'll also mention this from some more whiles ago, where it's said that the cost of shuriken is why they are not being used. Hrm... Also notice the plans on making it possible to craft the inoshikasho! >.>;)

FrankReynolds

08-18-2014, 03:04 PM

Hmmm...

Well there is this...

Sure, it's not a huge one, that post, and it doesn't say they are planning on making it a viable option, but you know, they're doing something to it. ^^

I remember they mentioned this already a while ago, but I forget the exact words from back then. I'm also too sleepy to find it right now, as it is of so little importance!

(Might have been this or this or this or this. I'll also mention this from some more whiles ago, where it's said that the cost of shuriken is why they are not being used. Hrm... Also notice the plans on making it possible to craft the inoshikasho! >.>;)

Best case scenario, they could give nin a crazy throwing ws that was better than their katana ones. But they can't really make full time throwing a thing.

I mean try to imagine the circumstances where you're fighting something that's hard enough to need the DDs to stay away from it.... and you're bringing a ninja instead of a cor or a rng.

Dragoy

08-18-2014, 09:04 PM

I mean try to imagine the circumstances where you're fighting something that's hard enough to need the DDs to stay away from it.... and you're bringing a ninja instead of a cor or a rng.

Yeah, I definitely can't imagine that, heh.

All the more interesting to see what they actually will do, if anything. Not exactly expecting much, but we'll see!

Selindrile

08-19-2014, 12:42 AM

I mean try to imagine the circumstances where you're fighting something that's hard enough to need the DDs to stay away from it.... and you're bringing a ninja instead of a cor or a rng.

Present day circumstances? None. Potential circumstances? Sure, they could make a BCNM that's immune/nearly immune to ranged damage and does devastating physical AoE moves that wipe shadows very quickly, but Ninjas can keep up? Is it a cop out, yes, but I guess it could be a way to give Nin a use?

FrankReynolds

08-19-2014, 01:28 AM

Present day circumstances? None. Potential circumstances? Sure, they could make a BCNM that's immune/nearly immune to ranged damage and does devastating physical AoE moves that wipe shadows very quickly, but Ninjas can keep up? Is it a cop out, yes, but I guess it could be a way to give Nin a use?

Then you would probably want a paladin and some mages. One screw up with utsusemi and your dead.

Which brings up another point. Instead of adding all sorts of extra shadows and recast reduction to utsusemi, wouldn't it be better to just make it so that only one shadow is consumed per aoe/spell etc. when you are nin main? Leave it as is for subjob....

Or add a level 99 utsusemi type spell that at least partially blocks aoe / magic damage and put it on a separate timer. Maybe only give it 2-3 shadows, but make it so that they are only consumed by magic / ws etc.

Sandmaste

08-20-2014, 07:57 PM

The above is a nice 'thinking outside the box' idea, Just 2 Shadows that show differently to Utsusemi, call it 'something: Ichi' that adds 2 shadows that eat up AOE moves/spells, 1min timer

Selindrile

08-21-2014, 08:13 AM

In my imaginary BCNM you could make it immune to magical damage as well, mind you, for spite. I'm not calling this a good idea, I'm just "trying to imagine a universe in which Nin has a real use", heh. For what it's worth, I'm entirely on your side, Ninja, Bst, Pup, etc, they need some lovin, so does Blu but, we're much improved lately honestly.... but, not enough to make us competitive sadly.

Sandmaste

08-21-2014, 06:49 PM

In all honesty, I don't give a damn about throwing, I just love Ninja and want the job to be used again. I'm still killing Apad's with a friend who's after horns to, and in spare time rinsing a few Sobeks (amazing how quick you can solo farm skins now IF you wanted to) I didn't jump on the katana bandwagon 3 years back when that multiple groups would be fighting for Guku claims, its nice to sometimes have the zone to myself and have everything in that small area of mis coast. Being a MNK main I should of maybe gone for Vere, but I'm holding out that SE makes Nin, an amazingly put together job, what it needs to be used as a tank again.

If you (SE) only want severly OP Relic or Empherean PLD'd to tank (and there are so many of them out there now because those shields add so much to the job, why not severely increase the DMG on REM Ninja Katana's OR on all 3 of them, add 'Utsusemi: San' so then all tank jobs HAVE to have a REM to compete.

FrankReynolds

08-22-2014, 04:54 PM

Balloon

08-22-2014, 05:10 PM

I'd be happy if they just boosted nin's damage output to be somewhere near monk without a crazy hard to acquire gear set. I don't think being able to tank is a viable excuse for bad damage. Quite a few DDs are used as tanks more often than nin now these days. I see no reason why nin shouldn't output just as much damage.

This is something I was saying in another thread - There really is no place that shadow tanking is viable nowadays, considering most content includes monsters with heavy AoE and AoE magic attacks that bypass shadows. It cannot compete as a tank anymore. Square need to address it from one of the two sides, either you make NIN have some form of mitigation it didn't previously have, or buff it so that it can at least be used outside of a tanking role.

That said, in fights where AoE is a problem, NINs are could be kind of nice - If they could compete damage wise.

Zerowin

08-24-2014, 05:14 PM

We better be careful with what we ask, they might just make it so more mobs have moves that ignore shadows.
Saying that how good of a tank would a pld be without their shield?

Grekumah

08-27-2014, 03:55 AM

Unfortunately the development team is going to need a bit more time to work on the previously announced shuriken revamps and it has been pushed to October. Additionally, the dual wield adjustments that coincide with these adjustments will also take place in October.

Also, while it hasn't been finalized just yet, I can tell you that they are planning to create a new job trait which will be similar to shuriken version of “Kick Attacks” where you will throw a shuriken without consuming an item.

Selindrile

08-27-2014, 04:42 AM

o.o Shuriken version of "Kick Attacks" that means extra TP generation and doesn't expend your ammo slot item?

I am cautiously interested and hopeful!

Xsilver

08-27-2014, 06:39 AM

So you'll occasionally pull a Shuriken/Dirk out of hammerspace and throw it at the mob when it procs on a dual wield auto-attack.

Rubicant82

08-27-2014, 07:42 AM

you will most likely need to have something you can throw equipped in the ammo slot for it to proc if not though, that could be very interesting.

Glamdring

08-27-2014, 08:22 AM

Karbuncle

08-27-2014, 08:41 AM

I'm just going to quietly go back to reread a thread called "a Ninja Without Throwing" from the beginnings of the forums so I can laugh at all the people who flamed him so much for suggesting that throwing could/should be an integral part of nin play... poor guy, turns out he was the one SE listened to.

They didn't flame him in a way that said "THROWING IS STUPID AND SHOULDNT BE A PART OF NINJA", they flamed him in a way that said "Ranged delay and Ninjas naturally high dual wield makes throwing impossible in FFXI for right now". Very very different context. It was shown many a time that even with an absurdly high DPS Shuriken throwing would still hinder a Ninjas TP and WS output, as well as their overall damage.

The fact Square is making it a job trait like Kick attacks is more than clear evidence there was no other way to make throwing useful compared to the melee DPS NIN outputs.

THAT SAID BRUH - This idea they came up with is absolutely great, I think it was even already suggested in that same thread you mentioned (I even made suggestions in that thread lol). I do remember reading a long time ago someone mentioning "Throwing" shuriken like a kick attack or something, except I think they intended it to be consumed, giving it a 100% Recycle chance is also a great idea.

My guess is they'll now be adding some high level r/ex Shuriken with good damage and good buffs... Now i have to wonder will it be based on throwing skill? I think it will be... so level your Throwing friends :D

Glamdring

08-27-2014, 08:54 AM

I think you may want to reread that. my recollection is that most of the flaming was about as baseless as the political troll hate posts you see in other forums. a VERY few discussed mechanics, and frankly, there were a lot of very viable suggestions even with the mechanics as they stood that would make a throwing nin-especially if he interspersed casting-about as useful as the midpoint between cor and rng in the ranged damage category. and it was prophetic in that Aby boss mobs were the beginning of the end for blink-tanking in end-game with all the god-awful AoE damage they've added to end-game content that leave even a good nin's shadows up for what, 5 seconds? so a mechanism that would allow increased DD utility for a nin was a great idea, and not really ahead of its time. what he failed to factor in is that while there have been many things that didn't scale into upper levels-especially ilevel-properly (pet utility to name the biggest to me), the utility/survivability from /dnc is NOT one of them and allows nin to function even without shadows. That said, when is the last time you saw a new end-game strat that involved a nin main? soloing they are ok, but party love... not so much.

of course, you know me, the advocate for all 22 jobs to be equally useful, just via different means...

Karbuncle

08-27-2014, 09:10 AM

It'd be nice if there was a bit more balance between all the jobs though, and some weren't so far ahead useful, and other so far behind useless... but I mean, I was reading over some FFXIV stuff with that live stream, and BLU was mentioned... the excuses and reasons they gave for it being difficult to introduce BLU are more or less the exact problems I want to avoid in XI. They're afraid to add BLU almost entirely because it requires you go out and learn spells from enemies, so they're afraid people won't invite BLUs who dont have the right spells...

Another note was they didn't want Summoner to be more "Pet Job" oriented, and wanted it to remain basically a "DoT" job, because if they put more focus on the pet... your skill for the job will have more impact on how you play and they don't want to make the job too technical (cause they know their demographic lol).

Basically the meaning behind this is the only way to truly balance 22 jobs to be useful and interchangeable more or less would be to remove any uniqueness between them so no one possesses to big of a bonus over another, ala FFXIV. I would not enjoy this type of game...

FrankReynolds

08-27-2014, 12:53 PM

Glamdring

08-27-2014, 01:02 PM

well if it's a straight job trait like the occasional kicks a monk dishes out without footwork I don't think it really matters frank, just stay breathing and the things will fly. interesting to see how it's implemented.

Karbuncle

08-27-2014, 01:09 PM

I fully expect this to get used about as much as kick attacks does on monk. My hopes are not up. I would love to be able to replace a RNG in a PUG, but I just don't see this being something that you can full time. SE's love affair with the yin and yang means that it will probably have some horrible side affect like melee accuracy -100, defense -50% or melee delay +500. and share a timer with whatever ability overwrites it so that once you pop it you're stuck with it for longer than you would like.

Either that or it will only be good when used with a set of macro pieces that come exclusively from high level fights that no one uses a ninja on and don't drop items that are useful for the jobs that are needed.

If it's useful at all for full time range attacks, it will poop all over RNGs single use.

Firstly, you're thinking of "Footwork".

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Footwork

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Kick_Attacks

Two completely different things. They said it will be like Kick Attacks, so basically it'll be a job trait that will automatically throw shuriken, its just like double attack, an additional attack round, except with shuriken and not your foot.

This shuriken thing will probably use the base damage of the shuriken equipped, so no special foot armor required... Not to mention shuriken have generally quite high DPS, so that won't be a problem for NIN if this trait works well. I imagine it'll also grant additional TP. I imagine they'll make shuriken that offer bonuses outside of base damage too, like a shuriken with Acc+ or something to accommodate the use of this new ability.

FrankReynolds

08-27-2014, 02:01 PM

Firstly, you're thinking of "Footwork".

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Footwork

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Kick_Attacks

Two completely different things. They said it will be like Kick Attacks, so basically it'll be a job trait that will automatically throw shuriken, its just like double attack, an additional attack round, except with shuriken and not your foot.

This shuriken thing will probably use the base damage of the shuriken equipped, so no special foot armor required... Not to mention shuriken have generally quite high DPS, so that won't be a problem for NIN if this trait works well. I imagine it'll also grant additional TP. I imagine they'll make shuriken that offer bonuses outside of base damage too, like a shuriken with Acc+ or something to accommodate the use of this new ability.

You're right. I was thinking of footwork.

Unfortunately, I don't think it will really satisfy other people's craving for throwing if it just functions like an additional melee attack. And it will still probably have some awful side effect like increased delay or whatever other horror SE can think of.

Frost

08-27-2014, 09:13 PM

You're right. I was thinking of footwork.

Unfortunately, I don't think it will really satisfy other people's craving for throwing if it just functions like an additional melee attack. And it will still probably have some awful side effect like increased delay or whatever other horror SE can think of.

I'm worried about this too. Like it won't be 'an additional attack' like we know it, i.e. it would be another arm movement in the flurry tossing a star. I'm worried it would be the set of attack rounds then a long pause while my arm is hanging out behind me waiting to throw a "free" star, when I should have just been hitting.

FrankReynolds

08-28-2014, 07:32 AM

I'm worried about this too. Like it won't be 'an additional attack' like we know it, i.e. it would be another arm movement in the flurry tossing a star. I'm worried it would be the set of attack rounds then a long pause while my arm is hanging out behind me waiting to throw a "free" star, when I should have just been hitting.

I'm more worried that they will do something stupid like include the delay from the throwing slot into your next attack round every time it goes off. Or make it so that the item only comes from some obscure piece of content that no one will do any more after the first week it's out.

Glamdring

08-28-2014, 08:14 AM

FrankReynolds

08-28-2014, 08:19 AM

I kind of doubt the delay will be incorporated if they are basing it off monk's kick attacks trait. but the likely requirement of a consumable weapon will certainly require SOME deviation, as well as a recycle check to see if it was consumed. however, as described it's an add-on to a melee attack round, and for that delay doesn't seem to factor in, at least it doesn't seem to on kick attacks, double attack or triple attack which sound more like the analogous mechanisms. I always laugh playing thf/dnc dualing daggers and I get that occasional stretch where triple activates like 5 times in a row, because I'm swinging faster than my Monk using 100 fists. too bad its too unreliable to count on it as part of a strat build or thf might get a bit more love.

I agree that the things I described do sound illogical. I'm just trying to imagine how they are going to add free extra attacks that use powerful weapons and increase TP return. I mean I'd love for nin to get a huge boost like that just straight away, but this is SE we're talking about. They are gonna have to nerf something in order to keep the damage exactly the same or worse than it was before otherwise.... Balance yo.

Grekumah

09-03-2014, 04:46 AM

This shuriken thing will probably use the base damage of the shuriken equipped, so no special foot armor required... Not to mention shuriken have generally quite high DPS, so that won't be a problem for NIN if this trait works well. I imagine it'll also grant additional TP. I imagine they'll make shuriken that offer bonuses outside of base damage too, like a shuriken with Acc+ or something to accommodate the use of this new ability.
Correct, the job trait will use the base damage of the shuriken you have equipped. Also, we’re planning to make it so this will not activate with other types of throwing weapons such as darts – it has to be shuriken.

Additionally, as you’ve imagined, we’ll be adding shuriken with item levels in the October version update as well. Accuracy-wise, it will rely on your ranged accuracy, but as this might make things a bit difficult to hit, we’re also currently looking into having some type of modifier.

Also, naturally you’ll still be able to use shuriken as a ranged weapon, but if you do use them like this, the shuriken will be consumed as usual.

Glamdring

09-03-2014, 07:42 AM

ok, does that mean shuriken will ONLY be consumed if you do a deliberate ranged attack? because that's what it sounds like.

Karbuncle

09-03-2014, 08:50 AM

ok, does that mean shuriken will ONLY be consumed if you do a deliberate ranged attack? because that's what it sounds like.

Correct!

Job trait will throw a shuriken randomly on a normal attack round, and will not consume ammo.

Throwing it like you would a ranged attack will consume ammo.

You can get further clarification if you need it but overall this is how it seems.

FrankReynolds

09-03-2014, 12:32 PM

Correct, the job trait will use the base damage of the shuriken you have equipped. Also, we’re planning to make it so this will not activate with other types of throwing weapons such as darts – it has to be shuriken.

Additionally, as you’ve imagined, we’ll be adding shuriken with item levels in the October version update as well. Accuracy-wise, it will rely on your ranged accuracy, but as this might make things a bit difficult to hit, we’re also currently looking into having some type of modifier.

Also, naturally you’ll still be able to use shuriken as a ranged weapon, but if you do use them like this, the shuriken will be consumed as usual.

Will you be able to get throwing skillups when it activates? Or will you still have to level throwing through traditional means? Will it affect weapon skills? Will any throwing specific weapon skills be added? Or is this basically just kick attacks with bad accuracy and an iLevel item requirement? What is the base activation rate?

Zhronne

09-03-2014, 04:06 PM

The fact that it uses Ranged skill gives me mixed feelings.
On one hand I'm glad they're finally giving a purpose to that skill, but that's the only positive thing I'm afraid.
They mentioned a "secondary modifier"... I hope this is going to be an efficient one. The problem is making so the accuracy of this additional attack can stay within the range of your overall melee accuracy. If you can't do that you'll be forced to use mixed TP setups and strange gear... it's gonna be a bit messy.

Does Sange still consume the shuriken? If it doesn't anymore I think I might remove my Hyoton: San and get 5/5 Sange.

WoW

09-05-2014, 01:26 AM

^^I believe it does; 5/5 only affections shadow consumption iirc. Sange was still pretty "meh" outside of abyssea, but more "meh" post ilvl weapons. Sange was a great ranged attack in abyssea prior to that; if you are properly geared for it. I used Koga/Fumas.

Edit: Fumas may rise in price or become more common, unless they introduce some higher tier shurikens.

Zerowin

10-01-2014, 05:36 AM

Will Sange remain a merit skill and if it does will there be a point to have it 5/5?

Futan

10-01-2014, 03:01 PM

I think the +25 Ranged Accuracy is the boost for additional merits. Could we please get confirmation, Grekumah or whoever? :x

EDIT: Also, we will be bleeding shurikens when Sange is active. Rough estimate of about 30+ per activation. I'm hoping at the least this is factored in when considering the prices(Sparks/Plasm/etc.) for the iLvl shuriken.

Kincard

10-07-2014, 07:26 PM

So, I think Daken's great and all, but why did this happen:

LV60
Fuma Shuriken: 72D
Cermet Knife +1: 21D
Sairen: 31D
Omokage: 66D
Vassago's Scythe (L58): 84D

LV80
Iga Shuriken: 80D
Mandau (80): 43D
Kikoku (80): 48D
Amanomurakumo (80): 98D
Apocalypse (80): 117D

ILV
Happo Shuriken +1 (118): 99D
Togakushi Shuriken (119): 104D
Mandau (119): 91D
Kannagi (119): 106D
Amano (119): 227D
Apocalypse (119): 266D

How did Shuriken go from having comparable damage to 2 handed weapons to being weaker than katanas purposefully low-damage because of their aftermath? I get that maybe they needed to rethink Shuriken damage since they arn't consumed with Daken and I'm not saying they should make them have 200D or whatever, but I figured they'd be stronger than katanas at least. By the way, here's a fun one: Roppo Shuriken (L107) has D71, which is 9 lower than shuriken that is 27 levels below it. What?

I'm glad they remembered to put some decent stats on them though. I think Happo+1 will be standard-use moreso than Togakushi because of the stats it has, despite the lost ranged attack/acc.

Also they'll probably need to consider some form of recycle for Sange, a stack of Hachiya Shuriken costs 7k sparks and I'm pretty sure a Ninja will easily use up about half a stack every time they use Sange. 5 minute cooldown means you'll burn through them pretty fast.

Xsilver

10-08-2014, 06:38 AM

Free damage and TP is free. Would you rather them change it to a 5-10% proc like DA/TA/Kick Attacks but give it the same damage as a Katana?
With Sange you get a Brazen Rush-like effect at the cost of some Sparks/Gil.

Kincard

10-08-2014, 08:04 AM

No, I'd actually rather they keep the proc rate and give it higher damage than a dagger, but thanks for the false dichotomy.
"some" Sparks is an understatement, I don't think you realize just how fast anyone regularly using Sange will burn through Shuriken, and FTR Hachiya are pretty much the only shuriken feasible to use Sange with. Happo Shuriken takes Watkza stuff to make and Togakushi is a drop from hard mode battlefields. The only hope left is Suppa Shuriken since I'm not sure where those are from yet. I'll laugh if you suggest that people should use Sange with Roppo Shuriken.

Futan

10-10-2014, 04:55 PM

Suppa are from Bayld. ~5k/stack. More practical than Hachiya(and better actually for Sange) but I still don't think it's that feasible if this ability is supposed to actually be used anywhere close to every 3 minutes. You're going through at least a stack every 2-3 uses.

I'm really disappointed with the cost of these shurikens too. Sparks shurikens are actually more than the bolts/arrows/bullets. I could partially understand the shurikens being the same cost, although I'd disagree with it, but more? RNGs are getting at least 10x the mileage out of them with their near-capped Recycle and Scavenge.

Camate

10-15-2014, 03:25 AM

Kuroganashi

10-29-2014, 03:44 AM

As long as you're going to make NIN a more effective tank than PLD, Migawari should do more about magic attacks.

Also, something needs to be done about the gil / inventory requirments of tools.

for the Inventory they made "Universal ninja tools" and as far as GIL (Get yourself "NINJA TOOL EXPERTISE") That will make you spend 95% LESS gil XD

amazing to have NINJA TOOL EXPERTISE !!!!! it barely uses the Tools you have and with hands Relic 109 or 119 makes M.ACC+25 (Asuming you are 5/5 Merits on it) whenever it procs....

I Personally got +85~% Ninja Tool Expertise

Kuroganashi

10-29-2014, 03:49 AM

Hello,

We’ve determined that there is a bug with “★Trial by Earth” where only a single Togakushi shuriken drops. As this battlefield is supposed to drop a Togakushi shuriken pouch we will be fixing this in the coming days. Apologies for the inconvenience.

Additionally, we’ve also determined that there is a bug with Unwavering Ironclad in Ra’Kaznar skirmishes where his behavior will change when using Daken. We expect to have this fixed in the November version update as it will take a bit of time to edit the program.

oh........... I been blaming the SAM this whole time for using FUDO >< Thanks for the letting me know it was My NINJA that did that on IronClad ; ;

I Feel Guilty now ._.

Also Would it be possible to UP % on the "Togakushi Shuriken" , "Ptica Headgear" , "Raimitsukane" ?

also make JOB POINT: "Ninjutsu Casting time" ~> "Ninjutsu Cast/Recast Time" that would be THE BEST Update you guys can do.