[dev100x] Relic & Mythic Weapon Adjustments

[Kiba]

I was asked to post this in suggestions so please excuse me.

[dev100x] Relic & Mythic Weapon Adjustments
(Yes I really hope that this becomes a dev topic)

Problem: While adventurers are enjoying abyssea and treasures attained including the mighty empyrean weapons, balance between these new weapons and the previous top tier weapons introduced(relics & mythics) are being ignored. We understand the development team's support on making the game oriented for casual playing(less time grind, enjoy the game more) however this should not be a reason to ignore the balance and disregard the efforts put in by players whom attained relic and mythic weapons. Although the concept of relics will be the best is no longer justified due to times changed, relic/mythic weapon owners still believe that relics and mythic weapons should still be comparable to empyrean weapons considering the amount of time and effort spent.

Solution: Please adjust the Weapon Skill Damage Modifiers for the Relic & Mythic Weapon Skills to be on par with Empyrean Weapon Skills. Relic & Mythic Weapons do not necessarily need to be better than Empyrean Weapons but the damage output difference of thousands is not really acceptable. So please, Development Team, give attention on this area and apply adjustments.

Further Notes:
A few weeks back there was a twitter post on Aegis and Ochain. The twitter post had good intentions of addressing balance between the two shields, however the following was ignored- with shell a paladin with aegis can cap magic defense. So applying more -magic damage taken serves no purpose of improving the situation. So unless a relic job ability, trait, weapon skill, or adjustment to shield bash timer or damage for Aegis is introduced, further enhancements in magic defense would accomplish nothing. Development Team please review this and reconsider your plans on this.

[dev1000] Dynamis Reborn: With dynamis being adjusted as a relic owner I hope the Development Team considers not making relic weapons easier to attain but change the means of attaining to be more possible. For the longest time players have expressed that building a relic weapon requires mostly time to attain currency which puts a large number of the player base at a disadvantage. Following the success of how empyrean weapons are attained through work fighting notorious monsters and trials to upgrade weapons the same should be applied with relic weapons so that these are possible to attain for the average player who is willing to put in the effort. So instead of downgrading the difficulty of making a relic weapon to what is done with walk of echoes weapons, introduce a new means to build relic weapons that is acceptable to everyone.

Thank you. /bow

[Unctgtg]

This needs to stay on front page until Developers understand they have some very upset player base. Until they post something about it, it will stay on front page.

[Malacite]

Why should weapons from 2004 be on par with gear from 2010?

Dynamis was one of if not the single worst designed end game content in the game, and it's nice to see they're (finally) taking steps towards fixing it, but I still don't see why Relics & Mythics should be equal to Empyreans. Comparable certainly, but we don't need the same old weapons dominating. Enough with the Zilart-era gear.

The fact is SE has already powered up the Relics via the level 90 versions by increasing the WS power. In fact, Amanomurakumo is only just barely second to Masamune because of Masamune's aftermath - Kaiten & Fudo are very close in performance with the 90 version.

Mythics were never meant to be high DPS weapons either. Their intent was to enhance their respective jobs, which some like Yagrush & Kenkonken do exceptionally well.

[Humie]

regarding the balance between Aegis and Ochain

Aegis at 75 with Shell V would capp the -% magical damage taken, with the new magian trials this increases to -40% magic damage taken which is pointless as PLD gets shell IV putting it way above the cap for -% magic damage taken with a spell they always have acsess to efectivly leaving the magian updates completly pointless.

Combined with the fact that you can obtain -25% magic damage taken with easily abtainable armor to macro in for all Ochan users, with a shield that has a much higher block rate and damage mitigation factor this leaves aegis ( a much more dificult shield to obtain ) a far inferior shield to ochan.

To keep Aegis current the stats need to be altered increacing the block rate and maybe to
-% damage taken
-25% magic damage taken and occationaly absorbs magic damage
-25% magic damage taken and magic damage occationaly boosts enimity
or -25% magic damage taken and 10% of magic damage converted to MP.

Relics take years to obatin with a imense comitment where as emperium weapons can be fully upgraded in as little as a week (I have obtained 85 Almace in 2 weeks as have other people).
I feel the finished item should reflect the time and effort taken to obtain them as it stands relic weapons are lacking in almost every factor compared to the easyer to obtain emperium weapons.

[Siviard]

The only people that are "upset" are the people who are relic owners who use their relic/relics as an excuse to feel they are superior to other players who have yet to obtain one, so lets keep it real here shall we? I bet Unctgtg is one of those players with his Apocalypse (I see 90 DRK on him, so it's a pretty educated guess)

I welcome this change to dynamis, as I enjoyed it since I first started doing it, and am looking forward to trying out this new "Dynamis v2.0"

[Humie]

The only people that are "upset" are the people who are relic owners who use their relic/relics as an excuse to feel they are superior to other players who have yet to obtain one, so lets keep it real here shall we?

I welcome this change to dynamis, as I enjoyed it since I first started doing it, and am looking forward to trying out this new "Dynamis v2.0"

Most don't think they are superior just because they have a relic they are just proud of there achivment, I have said many times that i know of better none aegis PLDs than me.

The thing that bothers me is Aegis is getting enhancments wich make no difrence what so ever due to the -% magic damage taken + shell cap the trials dont lower the damage you take from magic at all.

SE have said they want to preserve the balance between relic-emperium by inreasing aegis's magic defence more which as many people have pointed out is a waste of time unless the cap for -% magic damage taken is raised

[Kitkat]

Taking in consideration there are NM that remove or even absorb buffs I can see a point to increasing the -% value of Aegis. I think the thing that upset my friend who has one the most is the fact that the Ochain blocks much more frequently than his Aegis and restores MP.

Also, while I am not a relic owner (yet) I am on the road to finishing one. It has been a long one, but I am a little disappointing to see that another individual I know who has the same Relic I am working on doing thousands less in WS damage compared to Emp weapon of equal type. Even with the "Higher DPS rating", the overall output is significantly lower mainly due to the WS.

It isn't about "reigning on top" so much as the time and effort to complete a relic compared to the time and effort to completing an Emp weapon only to see it do substantially less damage. It is like the Developers circling you, pointing, and laughing in unison for wasting your time to complete the weapon. Not just you, but your LS, friends, and LS members who spent hours, days, weeks, and months helping to finish that relic, all of them share in this circle of shame the Developers have created by giving Emp Weapons the potential to do thousands more damage than Relic weapons. In most cases, even the most "lol" of the Emp Weapon skills still outshine Relic WS in comparison.

[Showmo]

Why should weapons from 2004 be on par with gear from 2010?


The only people that are "upset" are the people who are relic owners who use their relic/relics as an excuse to feel they are superior to other players who have yet to obtain one, so lets keep it real here shall we?

It has nothing to do with superiority. It's the simple fact that many relic holders have spent 1-3 years obtaining their relics, only to have the relic outclassed by some weapon that only takes 1-2 months at most to complete. Because the endeavor of attaining a relic is a long one, many players who have finally finished their relic feel that it was unfair (or unjust) of Square to allow a player to sink up to 3 years to obtain a weapon/shield/instrument which was supposed to be the best, only to add something significantly* better (and easier to acquire) shortly after obtaining it.

*Significantly, as in most of the relic weapons don't even come close to being equal or on par with their counterpart empyrean.

I personally have no issue with empyrean weapons being powerful and easy to obtain for casual players as they are now. But Square should at the very least balance these weapons more properly (i.e.: Rather than nerfing anything, just boost the weapons that take more work and dedication to get, which in this case, relics).

[Dazusu]

The only people that are "upset" are the people who are relic owners who use their relic/relics as an excuse to feel they are superior to other players

People need to stop using this crap as an argument.

Relic holders are rightly agitated and upset due to spending six months to three years, more in some cases, obtaining a Relic; only for it to be worthless 10 levels later. Completely outdone by a weapon which takes no more than 3-4 days to obtain (max. a couple of weeks). If SE didn't agree with this, there wouldn't have been trials from Level 80 for Relics.

It's evident that those trials don't upgrade the Relic weapons enough.

It's the same argument for people asking for a challenge in gameplay "the only people who want that are elitists"

Really, dream up a decent argument.

[NotAzure]

People need to stop using this crap as an argument.

Relic holders are rightly agitated and upset due to spending six months to three years, more in some cases, obtaining a Relic; only for it to be worthless 10 levels later. Completely outdone by a weapon which takes no more than 3-4 days to obtain (max. a couple of weeks). If SE didn't agree with this, there wouldn't have been trials from Level 80 for Relics.

It's evident that those trials don't upgrade the Relic weapons enough.

It's the same argument for people asking for a challenge in gameplay "the only people who want that are elitists"

Really, dream up a decent argument.

10 levels, sure.

Let's also gloss over just how long the level cap was set to 75.

As an addendum:
I should specify that I think, given the dynamic established in FFXI, that it would be perfectly okay for SE to introduce trials of a sort to bring the relics up to par with their Empyrian counterparts. In the event of this, I do not thing either should surpass the other. Options over "mine is better than yours" idiocy any day of the blasted week.

If you feel that the extant trials aren't doing what they're supposed to (I cannot speak on this intelligently, lacking a relic) then that's an alright complaint to make.

[Charismatic]

That's exactly what the complaint is. Lv90 relics are pretty bad (generally speaking) compared to Lv90 Empyreans, and every level you can have them both at too, actually.
Relics even today are still harder to obtain as well. It's pretty silly.

[Corres]

The only people that are "upset" are the people who are relic owners who use their relic/relics as an excuse to feel they are superior to other players who have yet to obtain one,
Wrong! i don't own a relic. but for me a Relic weapon has far more value to me than an empyrean ever will. Relics take a lot more time and friends willing to help you out (animated weapons i am looking at you). it is a shame that Relic Weapons have become the "lol"-version of the legendary weapons obtainable by their respective jobs.

[brayen]

Fact of the matter is the game started as a big group effort with alliance etc. Game is now at a point where for all intents and purposes alliances are just an option not a necessity. If anything comes with the new dynamis change making relic more attainable it should be welcomed.

As for the whole argument about relics being outclassed by emp weapons, i am not sure they have changed much. If i am not mistaken relics have only fallen to second best (not including the ones that were never that great to begin with). As of the lv 90 magian trials they have shown signs of improving the WS and such of both mythic and relic, so they will becoming more powerful so in this regard i honestly just say let's see where it ends up.

Relic is not harder to attain then an emp as a post right before mines mentions. It just costs more in terms of money. Otherwise ur only effort goes into finding the coins to buy. Thus my disagreement at the start of my post with the OP, where as relic and mythic should be made as available as an emp. and previous time spent should never be a reason to be disappointed at newer development.

[Nosboh]

I would like to see BLU, PUP, COR, DNC, SCH added to a relic weapon. That would make me happy.

[Unctgtg]

The only people that are "upset" are the people who are relic owners who use their relic/relics as an excuse to feel they are superior to other players who have yet to obtain one, so lets keep it real here shall we? I bet Unctgtg is one of those players with his Apocalypse (I see 90 DRK on him, so it's a pretty educated guess)

I welcome this change to dynamis, as I enjoyed it since I first started doing it, and am looking forward to trying out this new "Dynamis v2.0"

Yes I am level 90, with Apoc. I also spent 18 months getting one. I also spent 24-30 days EVERY SINGLE update when cap was increasing, doing the trials (before they lowered it to 400 killshots) only to watch Emp completely blow relics out of the water. I would spend 2-3 hrs a night soloing for my kill shots, 9500 mobs that I had to kill with WS Killshot. Don't tell me I haven't put in my time.

When I see a person do an entire emp in 4 days from start to finish Its very disheartening to see them completely outdamage me along with other relics/mythics.

SE needs to fix these in the next update.

Edit: and calling me an elitest, ask anyone that truly knows me, I am far from it.

[Crysten]

If you consider the factors going into both weapons, I honestly feel relics are not that hard to get. For everyone throwing around the argument that "baaw, my relic is crap compared to something I could get in a week," here's a crazy thought: why don't you get an Empyrean? You just said it was easy, right?

Relics only need money and two NMs in Dynamis. People are only restricted by the amount of currency they can buy/handle at any given time. One of my friends completed Spharai in around 3 months just by bazaaring in Upper Jeuno. The majority of time spent upgrading a relic is simply through farming Gil and buying currency. To me, that isn't hard. Yes, you could throw in the "2 years of sponsored Dynamis" argument, but really, money is all it essentially boils down to.

Empyreans, by comparison, are all time investment and work, made easier by the constant level cap increases. If you were one of the pioneers, going for say, a Masamune at level 80, you'd have probably needed an alliance to take down Carabosse. Anyone can get a relic. Dynamis isn't hard, especially now. Relic owners obtained their weapons through monetary investments. Empyrean owners obtained their weapons through time investments.

I will agree the original relic trial upgrade criteria were absolutely crazy though.

The only weapons that desperately need a fix at this point are Mythics. SE came so close to making that questline great until they plopped the 30,000 Alexandrite requirement on it, making it nigh impossible to complete a Mythic at this point now that Salvage is dead.

I just feel this argument is going exactly the same way as those nostalgic people from the CoP era. You got a relic when it was hard, and now you're upset that years and 15 levels later, there's now something better.

Boo freaking hoo. It doesn't cheapen the achievement, just get with the times.

[Wheels]

As a relic owner myself(Mandau and Annihilator both lvl 90) I can honestly say my damage is pretty close to the empyrean weapons of the same type. Mercy Stroke is too spread out with damage but Eviceration does 3.8k-4.2k damage almost all the time. Coronach does alot as well around 3k-6k and have seen barrage do as high as 10k with triple proc of course. It just seems that certain weapons(Relics) can still maintain their sweet damage while others seem to be greatly needed of improvement. I have several Apoc's in LS and these guys that have it, upgraded Empyrean great axe because Apoc damage is suffering. And yes the trials before nerf for relics/mythics were severally painful and always fighting for mobs when an alliance shows up to kill the same thing you are killing. I tried to do trials with these alliances but they never got the concept that I need killshot so wasted my time and rolled out of alliance. All in all yes I agree relics/mythics really do need a damage boost for some weapons but like I said there is a few that already is good.

[Cenz]

Yes I am level 90, with Apoc. I also spent 18 months getting one. I also spent 24-30 days EVERY SINGLE update when cap was increasing, doing the trials (before they lowered it to 400 killshots) only to watch Emp completely blow relics out of the water. I would spend 2-3 hrs a night soloing for my kill shots, 9500 mobs that I had to kill with WS Killshot. Don't tell me I haven't put in my time.

When I see a person do an entire emp in 4 days from start to finish Its very disheartening to see them completely outdamage me along with other relics/mythics.

SE needs to fix these in the next update.

Edit: and calling me an elitest, ask anyone that truly knows me, I am far from it.

uncle tug tug!!! Your an elitest!! lol j/k we still <3 u!

[Porcius]

I think the best way to fix Relic weapons is to make them break caps as well as the already implemented %dmg of ws increase. i.e. Catastrophe: Additional effect 10% haste instead of replacing 10% gear haste. Aegis should break MDT cap. Amano should give tp return as if it were 450 delay on top of the 10 store tp. These are just a few ideas they could add to the 95 version. It gives them an edge to keep up with the aftermath of empyreans.

[Cream_Soda]

lol, didn't read the stickes, oh well. Still a lot of mayad up in here

[Michaeluk]

I think the best way to fix Relic weapons is to make them break caps as well as the already implemented %dmg of ws increase. i.e. Catastrophe: Additional effect 10% haste instead of replacing 10% gear haste. Aegis should break MDT cap. Amano should give tp return as if it were 450 delay on top of the 10 store tp. These are just a few ideas they could add to the 95 version. It gives them an edge to keep up with the aftermath of empyreans.

This would be a start, they also need to boost the hidden odd. Crysten up there doesn't feel its hard to get a relic funny she doesn't have one she also tells us relic holders to get a empyrean well i did and i still say as a owner of both relics need fixing and empyreans are a joke to get.

Also getting sick of people saying relic holders are butthurt we can't look down on people anymore lol please its more about the 3 months to 3 years some people put into getting relics to only be shit on by se. As i pointed out in a earlier thread it takes longer to take a 85 relic to 90 than it does to make a empyrean weapon.

[Unctgtg]

This would be a start, they also need to boost the hidden odd. Crysten up there doesn't feel its hard to get a relic funny she doesn't have one she also tells us relic holders to get a empyrean well i did and i still say as a owner of both relics need fixing and empyreans are a joke to get.

Also getting sick of people saying relic holders are butthurt we can't look down on people anymore lol please its more about the 3 months to 3 years some people put into getting relics to only be shit on by se. As i pointed out in a earlier thread it takes longer to take a 85 relic to 90 than it does to make a empyrean weapon.

Ah good point on 85-90

[Reiokyu]

Wow...these complaint threads are everywhere...

[Ganukay]

The only weapons that desperately need a fix at this point are Mythics. SE came so close to making that questline great until they plopped the 30,000 Alexandrite requirement on it, making it nigh impossible to complete a Mythic at this point now that Salvage is dead.

this. so hard to find alexandrites, lately.

[Crysten]

This would be a start, they also need to boost the hidden odd. Crysten up there doesn't feel its hard to get a relic funny she doesn't have one

Or it might be because I don't want one.

I was happily working on Aegis until SE decided to kill my main job. I then went for Masamune instead.

Less assuming/mad, please.

[Rambus]

If you consider the factors going into both weapons, I honestly feel relics are not that hard to get. For everyone throwing around the argument that "baaw, my relic is crap compared to something I could get in a week," here's a crazy thought: why don't you get an Empyrean? You just said it was easy, right?

Relics only need money and two NMs in Dynamis. People are only restricted by the amount of currency they can buy/handle at any given time. One of my friends completed Spharai in around 3 months just by bazaaring in Upper Jeuno. The majority of time spent upgrading a relic is simply through farming Gil and buying currency. To me, that isn't hard. Yes, you could throw in the "2 years of sponsored Dynamis" argument, but really, money is all it essentially boils down to.

Empyreans, by comparison, are all time investment and work, made easier by the constant level cap increases. If you were one of the pioneers, going for say, a Masamune at level 80, you'd have probably needed an alliance to take down Carabosse. Anyone can get a relic. Dynamis isn't hard, especially now. Relic owners obtained their weapons through monetary investments. Empyrean owners obtained their weapons through time investments.

I will agree the original relic trial upgrade criteria were absolutely crazy though.

The only weapons that desperately need a fix at this point are Mythics. SE came so close to making that questline great until they plopped the 30,000 Alexandrite requirement on it, making it nigh impossible to complete a Mythic at this point now that Salvage is dead.

I just feel this argument is going exactly the same way as those nostalgic people from the CoP era. You got a relic when it was hard, and now you're upset that years and 15 levels later, there's now something better.

Boo freaking hoo. It doesn't cheapen the achievement, just get with the times.

problem, you said relics are easier now becauase of new level caps right? well emps are the same way. emps got drasically easier then relics did, you went from allys to solo/duo.

can you solo the dyna nms?
can you solo dyna?

you can solo emps though.

people really need to stop saying its only money and money is easy to get.

[Alderin]

The only people that are "upset" are the people who are relic owners who use their relic/relics as an excuse to feel they are superior to other players who have yet to obtain one, so lets keep it real here shall we? I bet Unctgtg is one of those players with his Apocalypse (I see 90 DRK on him, so it's a pretty educated guess)

I welcome this change to dynamis, as I enjoyed it since I first started doing it, and am looking forward to trying out this new "Dynamis v2.0"

I am replying blindly for the rest of the thread but read this and disagree entirely.

I am a non relic or mythic owner and believe that Relics / Mythics should at least be boosted to the extent of at least comparable, if not - better augmented (with aftermath effects etc) then they currently stand vs. Empyrean weapons.

[Anethia]

I am in no way againts making relic weapons easier to obtain. In fact I welcome it. since i started playing in 2004 i've been wanting an excalibur, aegis, and gungir. the biggest issue i had was how much time it was going to take, time that i frankly didn't have. I like the idea of relic weapons being easier to obtain cause that means I might be able to finish more than one and not have to spend 4-5 years doing it.

I applaud you relic holders for getting your relic weapons, good for you. I was happy to finally get my valor surcoat after waiting for 2 years to get one, an armor piece which has been pretty much outdated since the release of ToAU. That being said, was I upset to see SE start adjusting relic drop rates when myself and many others i know waited months, if not years to get a specific relic piece? I was a little irritated, until I realized that it also works in my favor, making it easier for my to get relic for my other 4 jobs.

As for making them more powerful, you have magian trials to upgrade them, and who knows it might have a synergy recipe too to add more stats. All the time you spend crying that your weapon is outdated could be spent making it better or working on another one. Let the rest of us who have spent the last 7 years in the shadows finally have some time in the sun.

[Alderin]

As for making them more powerful, you have magian trials to upgrade them, and who knows it might have a synergy recipe too to add more stats. All the time you spend crying that your weapon is outdated could be spent making it better or working on another one. Let the rest of us who have spent the last 7 years in the shadows finally have some time in the sun.

A lvl 90 Empyrean vs. lvl 90 Relic (obtained via Magian trials since the cap rise) is still massively underpowered compared to their less-effort counterparts.

They are complaining for a valid reason - Even the magian moogles won't give them a weapon that is up to par for the time spent.

[Crysten]

problem, you said relics are easier now becauase of new level caps right? well emps are the same way. emps got drasically easier then relics did, you went from allys to solo/duo.

can you solo the dyna nms?
can you solo dyna?

you can solo emps though.

people really need to stop saying its only money and money is easy to get.

Dual/Tri-boxing =/= Soloing. If you can box Empyreans, you can box Dynamis.

While you can solo certain mobs without any major issue these days (Briareus and Cirein-Croin come to mind specifically, POSSIBLY Sobek if you're lucky), I would love to see you solo Carabosse, Bukhis, Glavoid and numerous other Empyrean NMs without a second character.

Dynamis can be lowmanned easily. Dynamis 2.0 is probably going to make it several times easier.

Money isn't hard to get unless you're stupid. Have you even seen the amount of money people will pay for stupid things like Ironclad drops and Catarae kills now, as well as HNM drops back in the day?

Anethia put it by far the best way. You can continue sitting around crying for your updates. An easy, cheap and low risk alternative is sitting right on your lap and you're turning your nose up at it. The only reason I can even fathom people getting upset over this is pride. You spent time getting your awesome weapon, but now there's something better.

If you're going simply by difficulty and time spent obtaining the weapon, then Mythics need to be adjusted with way more urgency before ANY Relic or Empyrean.

I spent 2 years and 20 million Gil in Salvage to get my full Usukane set and Empyrean armour slaps all that work in the face. Does that mean I'm automatically entitled to Salvage upgrades and get to whine when they won't be on par with AF3+2? Of course not, I just set myself new goals to improve my character!

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Problem: While adventurers are enjoying abyssea and treasures attained including the mighty empyrean weapons, balance between these new weapons and the previous top tier weapons introduced(relics & mythics) are being ignored.This is like saying there needs to be a balance between an onion sword and excalbur.

[Rambus]

Dual/Tri-boxing =/= Soloing. If you can box Empyreans, you can box Dynamis.

While you can solo certain mobs without any major issue these days (Briareus and Cirein-Croin come to mind specifically, POSSIBLY Sobek if you're lucky), I would love to see you solo Carabosse, Bukhis, Glavoid and numerous other Empyrean NMs without a second character.

Dynamis can be lowmanned easily. Dynamis 2.0 is probably going to make it several times easier.

Money isn't hard to get unless you're stupid. Have you even seen the amount of money people will pay for stupid things like Ironclad drops and Catarae kills now, as well as HNM drops back in the day?

Anethia put it by far the best way. You can continue sitting around crying for your updates. An easy, cheap and low risk alternative is sitting right on your lap and you're turning your nose up at it. The only reason I can even fathom people getting upset over this is pride. You spent time getting your awesome weapon, but now there's something better.

I spent 2 years and 20 million Gil in Salvage to get my full Usukane set and Empyrean armour slaps all that work in the face. Does that mean I'm automatically entitled to Salvage upgrades and get to whine when they won't be on par with AF3+2? Of course not, I just set myself new goals to improve my character!

No i mean solo, you can brew anything you want, you can brew any emp NM and take it down with one brew.

for 75>80 have exp pt, solo farm KI, or solo kill normal mob and get KI. use brew to kill NM if needed, some job can solo 75>80 NM and solo the KI NM too, depending on the emp

80>85 is a bit more tricky but common to get groups that want +2 gear. If needed you can solo farm KI and brew NM. You can collect KI tell people you can lot xxx but the emp items are mine to save brewing. Collecting any emp KI is soloable from what I seen. Maybe there is a few that is very hard solo I do not know.

85>90, same as 80>85

you can really speed it up having 2 to 4 people each doign a weapon but the 85>90 will still need to be brewed.

I would LOVE to see 4 people clear dyna at 90 and not only that pop and kill paper NM, and pop and kill shard NM.

mythic? you really think 1-4 people can kill those NMs?

you spending 2 years on salvage gear is your fault , it did not take much thought to know those drop rates where too poor to deal with.

I never did salvage hard core, the drop rates made me mad, I helped others though, Once i made a pact in saying I get no drop for alex.

besides salvage armor =/= relic weapons. you your self said 20 mil for subpar armor ( i really dont understand why you would go for more then feet) most of salvage gear was weak to begin with, I did not hear SE say salavge gear is the best so we are making it hard to get. SE did however say relics where suppose to be the top and mythics under them when mythics came out.

new =/= better


This is like saying there needs to be a balance between an onion sword and excalbur.

how do you figure?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

how do you figure?I'm saying that they're trying to update something that is old making it unnescisarily as powerful as something new. An onion sword doesn't need to be on par with excalabur just as much as excalabur doesn't need to beat an Empyrean in stats. Are you still using 32RSE legs over empyrean+2?

[Rambus]

I'm saying that they're trying to update something that is old making it unnescisarily as powerful as something new. An onion sword doesn't need to be on par with excalabur just as much as excalabur doesn't need to beat an Empyrean in stats. Are you still using 32RSE legs over empyrean+2?

Depends on the job... and macro, yes my rse can be more useful in some macro situations then emp +2 legs.

that onion sword does not take years to get, the logic is not the same

new=/= better!!! it is true with some things but not all the time, before abyssea the game had a BIG theme in having older gear be better then the newer gear, the newer gear was more for have nots.That is EXACLTY the same idea with emp weapons.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

That still dose not include a nescessity to update older weapons.

[Kiba]

Tsukino_Kaji,

Although it is clear you do not support the purpose of this thread to address the issue that relic and mythic weapons need adjustments, I thank you for your input. As the purpose is clearly stated to assemble input from players who share the same concerns we just want to have the opportunity to address this just like any other player hoping for their ideas and suggestions to reach the development team. Please be considerate on this. Whether our concern is valid or not will be determined by the community reps and development team. In my opinion, old content updated and changed turns into new content which is how the game has been developing, but I understand my opinion may not be the same as others and I do not enforce that upon others. Thank you again.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

But I still see no justification why an older weapon needs to be updated to the same power as the new ones.

[Crysten]

No i mean solo, you can brew anything you want, you can brew any emp NM and take it down with one brew.

for 75>80 have exp pt, solo farm KI, or solo kill normal mob and get KI. use brew to kill NM if needed, some job can solo 75>80 NM and solo the KI NM too, depending on the emp

...seriously?

So if you were to solo brew everything, let's say for the sake of an example: Masamune.

Assuming you want to brew the lesser NMs (which, if you are, you're automatically stupid) - 25 times each minimum assuming you get red/KI every time:

La Theine Leige: 25 times, 8 brews (assuming a one shot on brew, and 3 kills a brew), 1.6 million Cruor.
Baba Yaga: 25 times, 8 brews, 1.6 million Cruor.
Carabosse: 25 times, 8 brews, 1.6 million Cruor.

EDIT: Slight exaggeration on my OP, I didn't factor in killtime.

I dunno about you, but we're looking at a fair bit of time just to get the cruor you need to brew everything for the level 80 version. It's certainly gonna take you more than a week!


80>85 is a bit more tricky but common to get groups that want +2 gear. If needed you can solo farm KI and brew NM. You can collect KI tell people you can lot xxx but the emp items are mine to save brewing. Collecting any emp KI is soloable from what I seen. Maybe there is a few that is very hard solo I do not know.

Same thing applies here. Grouping up with people at this point automatically makes your argument of "soloing an Empyrean" invalid if you're going to brew it all. So assume another 4-5 million cruor for this stage at least (though of course you can solo Croin on RDM, so you could argue it both ways)!


85>90, same as 80>85

Sure is.


mythic? you really think 1-4 people can kill those NMs?

You didn't read what I said. Mythics need a huge adjustment in their difficulty/performance ratio. Mythics need to be better than Empyreans, I believe.


you spending 2 years on salvage gear is your fault , it did not take much thought to know those drop rates where too poor to deal with.

Spending 5 years on a Yoichi is also your fault/decision. Pot, this is the kettle. He's black.


besides salvage armor =/= relic weapons. you your self said 20 mil for subpar armor

You've never played MNK before, have you?

[Rambus]

You can solo KIs without brew! and some of the NMs can be soloed without brew!

I do not think your understanding me.

its simple concept, you can solo emps if you choose too, you cannot solo emps or mythics.

getting 4 people is around what you need to do emp in 1 week, you can not do parts of relic or mythic with 4.

I really think your not understanding or trying to understand what I say


You didn't read what I said. Mythics need a huge adjustment in their difficulty/performance ratio. Mythics need to be better than Empyreans, I believe.


not what SE said! SE just made the quest too hard without thinking.


Spending 5 years on a Yoichi is also your fault/decision. Pot, this is the kettle. He's black.
troll comment? I do not understand this

[Crysten]

You can solo KIs without brew! and some of the NMs can be soloed without brew!

I do not think your understanding me.

its simple concept, you can solo emps if you choose too, you cannot solo emps or mythics.

Oh, I agree. What I'm saying is you can't truly solo an Empyrean without a significant time investment farming Cruor for brews, assuming you go for the harder NMs and you're not dualboxing. This is the part of the argument that I find dumb - people shouldn't overexaggerate and say "you can solo it in a week!" when in actuality most people are actually dualboxing and doing these in groups anyway, exactly as for relics and mythics.

I don't think relics need adjusting. Mandau, Annihilator and Amano (to name a couple), fully upgraded are still better and/or on par with Empyreans.

There are shitty relics, and there are shitty Empyreans.

[Michaeluk]

Crysten if any one is comeing across as mad it's you with your deranged rants. We have reason to be justified with how bad se have shit on relic holders, if only you had finished that aegis you may understand but no because your a terrible player you never managed to fund it in time, so you went with massa the easiest path of empyreans and still want these joke to get weapons to be the best in game.

Btw woman/thing/it the level 85-90 relic alone takes longer to do than your joke of a weapon did, but as i said you were so terrible you couldn't get one made even though you fully admit to working on a aegis then in the same thread spew your nonsense about how easy relics were to get yet you never managed it. Stupid woman.

[Michaeluk]

I don't think relics need adjusting. Mandau, Annihilator and Amano (to name a couple), fully upgraded are still better and/or on par with Empyreans.

There are shitty relics, and there are shitty Empyreans.

Wow you do talk some crap, first off the aftermath from massa 90 will destroy amano sill.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

It sounds like your argument is that relic took you longer, so it should be better then something that it naturaly 15 levels higher then it.

[Rambus]

Oh, I agree. What I'm saying is you can't truly solo an Empyrean without a significant time investment farming Cruor for brews, assuming you go for the harder NMs and you're not dualboxing. This is the part of the argument that I find dumb - people shouldn't overexaggerate and say "you can solo it in a week!" when in actuality most people are actually dualboxing and doing these in groups anyway, exactly as for relics and mythics.

I don't think relics need adjusting. Mandau, Annihilator and Amano (to name a couple), fully upgraded are still better and/or on par with Empyreans.

There are shitty relics, and there are shitty Empyreans.

pretty sure its understood your having help getting them done in a week, but the thing is people can get them all done in a week if it is a small group 2-4 useally, for most anyway maybe need brew for stuff like gavoild ( the dagger 75>80) but stuff like brutas ( sword, katana , dont know what else) are ALL completely soloable, the KI and that NM.

The fact is relics and mythics can't be soloed while emps can. Emps can be done in small groups ( that are like a week, some report doing them in less then a week) where those small groups would still fail doing parts of relic and mythic. Relics and mythics are harder to get then emps and should be better regardless when they came out. How meny relics do you see? how meny mythics? how meny emps? I see too meny emps and not enough mythics, that alone should show you somethign is wrong.

There was gear that was out in RoZ that remained top till abyssea came out. This game in general has a history of making new gear bridge the have- and the have nots, and that is where emp weapons sit.

new=/= better.

Just wondering, when did you start to play?

[Crysten]

Crysten if any one is comeing across as mad it's you with your deranged rants. We have reason to be justified with how bad se have shit on relic holders, if only you had finished that aegis you may understand but no because your a terrible player you never managed to fund it in time, so you went with massa the easiest path of empyreans and still want these joke to get weapons to be the best in game.

Btw woman/thing/it the level 85-90 relic alone takes longer to do than your joke of a weapon did, but as i said you were so terrible you couldn't get one made even though you fully admit to working on a aegis then in the same thread spew your nonsense about how easy relics were to get yet you never managed it. Stupid woman.

Childish, immature posts insulting me aren't mad?

I stopped upgrading my Aegis due to PLD becoming redundant. If I'd have finished my Aegis, yeah, I'd be raging, but only because I'd never get a chance to use it.

Instead, I sold my currency, made some nice money, and spent my time upgrading numerous Empyreans for me and my LS.

The irony of your post is the fact you're wanting a relic upgrade when Mandau is better than Twashtar!


new=/= better.

Just wondering, when did you start to play?

By that logic, there should never be vertical progression in a game. Ever. :/

Also, been playing since EU release.

[Crysten]

Wow you do talk some crap, first off the aftermath from massa 90 will destroy amano sill.

I made the right choice to upgrade the joke weapon then ^_^

[Michaeluk]

Play it however you like miss fact is you still never managed to get a relic even though by your own admission you tried/failed to get aegis. Then to top it off you claim relics were easy to make. Totally forgetting the trials from 75-90 relic take longer than empys to make :S even after they nerfed the trials.

As another relic holder in another thread said who has both apoc90 and massa90


"
This is very true. I put in 100x the effort for my 90poc then I did my 90masa. Anyone that had an 85 relic before the trial nerfs and now has a 90 relic would find doing any Emp easy, fast and enjoyable in comparison. My Apoc still means a ton more to me even though DRK is a dead job and Apoc is now the 3rd best Scythe."

[Cream_Soda]

It takes a lot longer to get 5/5 on their relic set than 5/5 on af3+2. They should increase dyna gear so that it's the best because if it takes longer, it by default should be the strongest.

[Crysten]

It takes a lot longer to get 5/5 on their relic set than 5/5 on af3+2. They should increase dyna gear so that it's the best because if it takes longer, it by default should be the strongest.

^ The smartest thing I've read in two pages.

[Michaeluk]

It takes a lot longer to get 5/5 on their relic set than 5/5 on af3+2. They should increase dyna gear so that it's the best because if it takes longer, it by default should be the strongest.

Comparing relic gear to relic weapon really now, almost as bad as that one guy who tried to compare them to leveling a job lol.

[Rambus]

Childish, immature posts insulting me aren't mad?

I stopped upgrading my Aegis due to PLD becoming redundant. If I'd have finished my Aegis, yeah, I'd be raging, but only because I'd never get a chance to use it.

Instead, I sold my currency, made some nice money, and spent my time upgrading numerous Empyreans for me and my LS.

The irony of your post is the fact you're wanting a relic upgrade when Mandau is better than Twashtar!



By that logic, there should never be vertical progression in a game. Ever. :/

Also, been playing since EU release.

Yeah I am going off a guess and saying people that ague against relics and mythics are new players ( you are new compared to me).Like I said till abyssea came out SE never REPLASED gear, 90% of the gear was more bridging the have and have not's. That is why content never got replaced and that is why FFXI had so much to do. I think the older players want that returned I am sure a lot of us are burned out on abyssea only. Even now a lot of older gear even AF and AF+1 are still used for macros. I dought SE will ever truly replace gear.
Also remember I was just talking getting relics or mythics, they still have their own trails to do as well, so the time investment is way more for relics and mythics then emps ever be.

IF SE was going to make them trash they should never had trails for them.

for the relic armor comments, waiting for loldrops is not hard and relic gear are still used in macros. meaning YES there are times AF, AF+1, relic, relic+1 better then emp +2 armor.

if you are going to compare getting armor and getting weapons on the same view point, i guess changing weapons should not loose tp

[Cream_Soda]

Comparing relic gear to relic weapon really now, almost as bad as that one guy who tried to compare them to leveling a job lol.
It has nothing to do with relic gear to relic weapon directly, it was to show that time invested doesn't always = better. I could use non relic gear examples if you preferred, but it'd be the same outcome in the end.

[Rambus]

It has nothing to do with relic gear to relic weapon directly, it was to show that time invested doesn't always = better. I could use non relic gear examples if you preferred, but it'd be the same outcome in the end.

and new= doesn't always better.

we can go on all night with logic like this

[Vinceroth]

SE has not increased the lvl cap to 99 yet, so until then people complaining about the numbers on gear that has not been increased to 99 is pointless. for all we know when the lvl 99 cap comes out relic/mythic/empy weapons will all have their own benefits and drawbacks, relic could have great WS's, mythic awsome aftermath, and empy the occ double dmg...

[Cream_Soda]

and new= doesn't always better.

we can go on all night with logic like this
You're 100% right. It doesn't always = better. I can think of many examples that back your statement up.

However "doesn't always" doesn't = never. Emps can be better than relics and still fit your model perfectly, as long as there are newer items that aren't better than some of the older items, your statement still holds true (which is a statement I was never trying to say was wrong to begin with).

[Michaeluk]

It has nothing to do with relic gear to relic weapon directly, it was to show that time invested doesn't always = better. I could use non relic gear examples if you preferred, but it'd be the same outcome in the end.

Didn't se say they are boosting old gear via synergy and other means to be comparable to af3+2 with hq results funny that even with our relic trials were not on par we are miles behind.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

You're 100% right. It doesn't always = better. I can think of many examples that back your statement up.

However "doesn't always" doesn't = never. Emps can be better than relics and still fit your model perfectly, as long as there are newer items that aren't better than some of the older items, your statement still holds true (which is a statement I was never trying to say was wrong to begin with).And then after you spent a lot of time completeing your empyrean and we reach the 99 cap, I supposed that you'll complain that your empyrean weapon needs to be better then what ever then new weapon is?

[Cream_Soda]

And then after you spent a lot of time completeing your empyrean and we reach the 99 cap, I supposed that you'll complain that your empyrean weapon needs to be better then what ever then new weapon is?
I spent a longer time getting a single piece of usukane than I ever did on completing my emp.

I was one of those people 0/150+ on usu body alone.

I was more than happy to swap out of usu when something better came along, wasn't bitter a single bit. What makes think I'd be mad if they made something better than my emp?



Didn't se say they are boosting old gear via synergy and other means to be comparable to af3+2 with hq results funny that even with our relic trials were not on par we are miles behind.
and relics/mythics were boosted last update and will most likely continue to be boosted. If you think emps are going to be miles ahead at 99, you're crazy. That being said, there is 0 reason they deserve to be absolute best like "oh hey I got a reilc, crown me".

I believe that some relics will be better than some mythics and emps.

Some mythics will be better than some relics and emps.

Some Emps will be better than some relics and mythics.

I don't think relics just auto deserve to be crowned as 100% undisputed king, however. (same goes w/ mythics and emps)

[Rambus]

regarding a comment about vertical progress, I made a picture to show my point
how I feel about wow:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9718/wowprograss.th.jpg

there is a consisnt progress of level cap up and getting new gear. those updates are a lot shorter time span then FFXI ( level 75 for 7 years)

even though there has been newer content with newer gear, in most cases they did not replace old gear, so you have a flat line of progress but not a flat line of content. SE gave us more to do without replacing old contant so you have that flat line.

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/6281/abyssea.jpg
then you get to abyssea and now it is just abyssea only, that concpet causes a lot of problms and this relic and mythic issue is one of them.

also one last thing, this is more then relics vs emps, mythics a LOT of mythics need to be better then common weapons. A lot of mythics are horrible and need to be changes

[Cream_Soda]

I'm not following too well. You trying to say that emps should take years to get? lol

[Rambus]

I'm not following too well. You trying to say that emps should take years to get? lol

If this is to me, no I was not commenting on such things, I am saying you do not need new gear to replace old gear to make new events relevant. SE lasted on that concept for 7 years

[Tsukino_Kaji]

If this is to me, no I was not commenting on such things, I am saying you do not need new gear to replace old gear to make new events relevant. SE lasted on that concept for 7 yearsThen the game would never change. New gear is supposed to replace the old otherwise teh game doesn't go anywhere. This is called progress, it's a good thing. Let go fo the past.

[Crysten]

Cream Soda, have my babies. <3

[Rambus]

Then the game would never change. New gear is supposed to replace the old otherwise teh game doesn't go anywhere. This is called progress, it's a good thing. Let go fo the past.

Then why people play this game for 7 years? 9 years? 5 years? there is other things about a NMO then "progress". " Progress" =/= replacing everything.

If you think we need progress and forget about the old then why magin trails for relics and mythics? Why does SE still have level 75 concepts? I have to disagree if you think we have truly progressed past 75.
And here is the other issue, with all the “PS2 limitations" SE needs to get rid of limbus, salvage, assault, so on and turn them into events that are relevant to 99.
I know, lets get rid of them and make them in abyssea, that’s what new people want right? Easy game?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Then why people play this game for 7 years? 9 years? 5 years? there is other things about a NMO then "progress". " Progress" =/= replacing everything.

If you think we need progress and forget about the old then why magin trails for relics and mythics? Why does SE still have level 75 concepts? I have to disagree if you think we have truly progressed past 75.
And here is the other issue, with all the “PS2 limitations" SE needs to get rid of limbus, salvage, assault, so on and turn them into events that are relevant to 99.
I know, lets get rid of them and make them in abyssea, that’s what new people want right? Easy game?And again, why are you so hard set they relic needs to be on par with empyrean?

[Cream_Soda]

Then why people play this game for 7 years? 9 years? 5 years? there is other things about a NMO then "progress". " Progress" =/= replacing everything.

If you think we need progress and forget about the old then why magin trails for relics and mythics? Why does SE still have level 75 concepts? I have to disagree if you think we have truly progressed past 75.
And here is the other issue, with all the “PS2 limitations" SE needs to get rid of limbus, salvage, assault, so on and turn them into events that are relevant to 99.
I know, lets get rid of them and make them in abyssea, that’s what new people want right? Easy game?

Ffxi has always been an easy game. If you want a hard game, go play ninja turtles on NES.


Cream Soda, have my babies. <3
14/M/CA, you?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Ffxi has always been an easy game. If you want a hard game, go play ninja turtles on NES.And Zanac. >.<

[InfamousDS]

First off: As a career Dancer, I have spent the last 4 years praying for the update that makes Mandau usable for me. In the meantime, I have desperately wanted a Mythic. I don't want or care for Twashtar for any reason other then it looks cool. Rudra's Storm is not as good as Evisceration in a decent critrate/DEX build, especially in Abyssea. However, all I would have to do is this:

/check friendlist
/tell "Hey, I'd love a Twashtar. Lets go make one"
*3 days later, after killing the Timed NMs*
/p "Awesome, lets finish this up!"
*1-7 days later*
/p Kewl!
Reply: Grats!


Now, lets see the same with Mythic/Relic{for SMN}

/tell "Let's make a Mythic!"
Reply: "Good luck with that!"


In short: People will help with the least time-consuming option. Due to entry restrictions on Salvage and Dynamis, they are not only ridiculous to obtain, but you end up spending so much gil trying to overcome it that you bankrupt your character and they become the sole focus of your attention. Abyssea has NO restrictions, Abyssea has NO limiting factor, Abyssea does NOT impose a forced RL wait in between upgrades. All arguments stating Empyrean are hard are made by imbeciles who have never attempted something truly difficult. Relic/Mythic should be better by virtue of what they represent, not what they are. I still respect players with legitimate Relics far more than I respect Abyssea-nubs who (judging by the vast majority of opinion) burned the job from 30+ to cap and then had their LS get them an Emp "for the hell of it."

Oh, and I hated SMN burning too. Before Abyssea, I soloed all the way to 68, because SMN is expected to magically break the job gap and be a main heal because "they have lotta MP!". I'm a shitty WHM, I'm willing to admit that. Why would I want to be a shittier one with more mp?

[Rambus]

And again, why are you so hard set they relic needs to be on par with empyrean?

explain why relic are the highest D but underperform emps because of WS.

Because I can, like with PW staff, ZNM t4 staff and other weapons like that SE does thow RANDOM things on weapons / gear and hope it works. emps outdoing relics is most likey a mistake since magin trails have one consisnt

relics have the TOP D

[Tsukino_Kaji]

explain why relic are the highest D but underperform emps because of WS.Old. New. Done.

[Rambus]

Old. New. Done.

must be new player.....

new =/= better .....

in FFXI new gear ment more macro gear or bridging have and have nots, in 7 years before the cap 80 there was never gear replacment.

please understand this

[Tsukino_Kaji]

must be new player.....Wrong again. I'm just more excepting of change obviously.
And they relased all kinds of new and better bear before the 80cap. Everyone expansion added something.

[Cream_Soda]

explain why relic are the highest D but underperform emps because of WS.

Because I can, like with PW staff, ZNM t4 staff and other weapons like that SE does thow RANDOM things on weapons / gear and hope it works. emps outdoing relics is most likey a mistake since magin trails have one consisnt

relics have the TOP D
Higher DMG doesn't always equal better.

Delay and additional stats have always played a major role.

Are you basing your argument as "Relics have higher DMG so they should be the best?"

[InfamousDS]

Wrong again. I'm just more excepting of change obviously.
And they relased all kinds of new and better bear before the 80cap. Everyone expansion added something.

And yet nothing destroyed the game as a whole. Funny how it worked until now. It can't be that you can have the best weapon and a capped job in less than a month.

[Cream_Soda]

And yet nothing destroyed the game as a whole. Funny how it worked until now. It can't be that you can have the best weapon and a capped job in less than a month.
So would you be happy if emps just amounted to farming a lot of gil to pay for some sort of upgrade item to go w/ the trials?

Cause that's basically what a relic is. As far as all of the non gil work that goes into making a relic, it's not something that takes an incredible amount of time.


Mythics are the only thing that takes a huge amount of time aside from their gil.

[Dakotacj]

must be new player.....

new =/= better .....

in FFXI new gear ment more macro gear or bridging have and have nots, in 7 years before the cap 80 there was never gear replacment.

please understand this

We understand very well. Some gear is still great. Some relic weapons could use a boost. However what's going on here, is you're bawwing and crying about how whatever weapon you spent AGES getting (apparently a Yoichi from your sig), is being outclassed on what, weaponskill damage and overall parsing? I have some news for you friend: in most cases, it's not the weapon that's failing, its the person using it. Yes, Empyreans are far quicker to get. However, most Emp users I've seen in action completely fail. Most Relic users I've seen completely fail. I've only seen one Mythic in action, and that was a badass DRG with Ryunohige and he was a freaking beast with it. You've gone on for the past several pages and hours about how there is 0 balance between Empyrean, Mythic and Relic weapons. In your mind, because Square-Enix said so, the Tiers would go Relic >> Mythic >> Empyrean. Now, when has anything we interpreted from SE come out exactly as we interpreted? Not often. There IS a balance of weapons among the jobs, you just have to pull your head out of your arse and look closer. As cream soda said, some Emps are better than some Mythics and Relics. Some Relics better than some Mythics and Emps, and some Mythics better than some Relics and Emps. In your case of butthurt, yes I can see how you're so upset over your Relic being upstaged after 5 years of work. Namas Arrow is complete fail for damage, the best thing it's for is the Aftermath. Gendiva beats Yoichi as far as WS DMG and Aftermath is concerned. Yoichi can still have it's strong points, but you're too busy bawwing about its weak points. The fact you go on about "gear not getting replaced" says it all. You're not replacing your gear, so your Relic DMG is falling far behind.

The point of this is: Stop whining about it. If it's really bugging you that bad, try different gear setups, or heck, go make an Empyrean then. Stop crying to us and do some actual research.

[InfamousDS]

So would you be happy if emps just amounted to farming a lot of gil to pay for some sort of upgrade item to go w/ the trials?

Cause that's basically what a relic is. As far as all of the non gil work that goes into making a relic, it's not something that takes an incredible amount of time.

I don't pay to be spoonfed equipment. There are more than enough free MMOs that can do that for me. Relics take MINIMUM 1month, 1week, and 1day if you completely exclude gil acquisition. That's 5x the amount of time for an Emp. There is a clear difference. Including Gil adds anywhere from 1 day (RMT) to a few Months (if you have a reliable supply) to a few years (if you spend time actually playing and not grinding gil). I'm siding with relic because relic requires being a real player, not a gear-whore or an abyssea-spammer.

[Rambus]

Wrong again. I'm just more excepting of change obviously.
And they relased all kinds of new and better bear before the 80cap. Everyone expansion added something.

Like what?

HQ staffs, Mahatma Houppelande Set, HQ staffs, AF, AF+1, relic, relic +1 never really got replaced till abyssea. A lot of gear I just listed can still be used in macros though. HQ staffs can still match up to magin staffs when under potency atma, you thnik that is intended? salavage gear did not even replace a lot of gear for a lot of jobs, take the morri set, a MIX set still could be out perfromed with some gear that came out in 2003/2004. That mini expand hat made those situations larger for the mix set of winning.


Higher DMG doesn't always equal better.

Delay and additional stats have always played a major role.

Are you basing your argument as "Relics have higher DMG so they should be the best?"

No, but there is a reason SE made relics such high D in trials no? don't it seem that was an attempt to work around the things you just listed and trying to make them better then emps?

Like i said before the way SE has some stats on gear it seems random stats are thown on them and hope it works, that never gets tested so we tell them why it does not work as it should.

goign with new should be bettr why didn't PW staff outdo ele staffs? or mythic? because SE does not know how to, they just thow a random MAB on a weapon and hope it does outdo them.

I am not crying Dakotacj, i am trying to understand why people feel the need relics should be left in the past in the name of progress.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Don't worry, once the servers are back up none of us will be here and you can spend the time making it look like you have a good point about increasing the power of out dated relics uncontested.

[Rambus]

Don't worry, once the servers are back up none of us will be here and you can spend the time making it look like you have a good point about increasing the power of out dated relics uncontested.

Be nice if you answered my question, what new gear came out that replaced old?, before abyssea.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Be nice if you answered my question, what new gear came out that replaced old?, before abyssea.Every expansion had it, there are too many count. In every expansion what people were using was replaced by what was new. If not, you'd still be wearing your full RSE all the time.

[Rambus]

Every expansion had it, there are too many count. In every expansion what people were using was replaced by what was new. If not, you'd still be wearing your full RSE all the time.

No, nothing ever got replaced, there was what i call bridges of have and have nots, like v-fork for non relic users that replaced AH alts

what did THF and such tp in before homan?

How meny thf at 75 use level 50 body? and later dnc?

people use PW staff over HQ staff? people use ZNM T4 staff over HQ staffs?

I can't think of anything that replaced sky gear.

oh wait... when your magic caped I guess you get faster tp in Byakko's Haidate over emp +2. yeah sure... progress....

you can't name any, try naming a few so i can counter it

how meny salavge amor was real improvement? I count morr body, morr pants, morr feet ( RDM)
full mori set for magic casting ( blu) skadi hands for ws ( RNG), skadi pants for tp ( in specific STP setups, RNG) usu feet ( SAM ) full usu ( pup I guess)

[InfamousDS]

The inherent problem here is the intentional ignoring of valid arguments. Up until ~3 years ago, getting anywhere appreciable in FF required a significant amount of effort. The source for that goes even further. Bear in mind, we now get 4x (EP--)-(DC++) exp to the original design. Things are easier, and there is no respect for hard work anymore. My arguments are irrelevant to anything except time investment. Rambus wants the game to use the same tried-and-true formula that has existed since... forever. Abyssea destroyed FF as many players knew it. The first expansion (predating Empyreans), allowed any person to hit the new 80 cap in a matter of hours. The second was post Empyrean, and added new JSE that pretty much thrashed all gear beforehand. We want relics to be better because they ARE better, not because some misguided concept of hatred of the new or "its better because it takes longer". 99% of people who pull excessively high numbers do so in Abyssea-zones. If Abyssea wasn't the new core of gameplay, then I would be ok with an easy to get weapon that was at its best there. But, unfortunately, Abyssea is now where everything is at. There is a huge disadvantage to being able to kill 20+ mobs with 1 WS over not being able to kill even 1 unless it was near dead (in terms of AoE only and exp giving monsters only). Relic and Mythic are superior because Empyrean is a misused system and was meant to be the same difficulty. By overstepping how easy Abyssea is and adding in how easy it is to acquire the drops, Empyreans are now jokes with far too much power. They only inspire awe in newish players, and are to me a major nuisance when compared with everything that predates them.

Edit: Proof of concept; There are no other WS only parties except Fell Cleave, an Emp Weapon Skill. There never was UNTIL Emp Weapons came out, just like no SMN burns or manaburns (outside merit) until Level Sync. The difference between them is that Fell Cleave is supposed to be an achievement, well-earned. It isn't, whereas Level Sync is universal (which is where Emp is heading).

[Tsukino_Kaji]

We want relics to be better because they ARE betterBut they're not. And they shouldn't be. They WERE good, people just need to move on to bigger and better things.
I bet if empyrean upgrade items were sellable/tradable, none of the desperatly holding onto the past threads would exist.

[Rambus]

The inherent problem here is the intentional ignoring of valid arguments. Up until ~3 years ago, getting anywhere appreciable in FF required a significant amount of effort. The source for that goes even further. Bear in mind, we now get 4x (EP--)-(DC++) exp to the original design. Things are easier, and there is no respect for hard work anymore. My arguments are irrelevant to anything except time investment. Rambus wants the game to use the same tried-and-true formula that has existed since... forever. Abyssea destroyed FF as many players knew it. The first expansion (predating Empyreans), allowed any person to hit the new 80 cap in a matter of hours. The second was post Empyrean, and added new JSE that pretty much thrashed all gear beforehand. We want relics to be better because they ARE better, not because some misguided concept of hatred of the new or "its better because it takes longer". 99% of people who pull excessively high numbers do so in Abyssea-zones. If Abyssea wasn't the new core of gameplay, then I would be ok with an easy to get weapon that was at its best there. But, unfortunately, Abyssea is now where everything is at. There is a huge disadvantage to being able to kill 20+ mobs with 1 WS over not being able to kill even 1 unless it was near dead (in terms of AoE only and exp giving monsters only). Relic and Mythic are superior because Empyrean is a misused system and was meant to be the same difficulty. By overstepping how easy Abyssea is and adding in how easy it is to acquire the drops, Empyreans are now jokes with far too much power. They only inspire awe in newish players, and are to me a major nuisance when compared with everything that predates them.

Edit: Proof of concept; There are no other WS only parties except Fell Cleave, an Emp Weapon Skill. There never was UNTIL Emp Weapons came out, just like no SMN burns or manaburns (outside merit) until Level Sync. The difference between them is that Fell Cleave is supposed to be an achievement, well-earned. It isn't, whereas Level Sync is universal (which is where Emp is heading).

Just for clarity I have no problem with bridging have and have nots. I do not mind a weapon for have nots that can get close to me or do better with better mixes of gear then me. I am talking about the weapon itself in saying this. Mythics and relics should have the capacity to outperform emps. This should be on all jobs, not this some relics outdo emps in abyssea, and some emps destroy relics in abyssea. Leaving mythics in an usless limbo unless you mean SMN staff or WHM club

Someone can correct me if my view is wrong but to me it seems people want relic weapons to be left in the dust because people think the users are stuck up, rmt, whatever else. I do not think it is right to stereotype in such a faction and i think people are using "everything new should be better" argument as a buffer from their real insecurity. I am trying to find the truth and trying to figure out what could make everyone happy. I really do not understand when people say “no emp should be best that is that” when I say relic are hard to do they should be top due to their history and I do not mind you getting close to a relic.

Fell Cleave is a 300 skill ws. That last part is confusing me. It is an Impaction, scission, detonation, does not have a level 2 or level 3 property.

Still waiting for an asnwer to my question Tsukino_Kaji

[InfamousDS]

Fell Cleave is a 300 skill ws. That last part is confusing me

That is an error on my part. I'm only intimately familiar with Dagger Magians, I know the paths for perp- and that's it for my other weapon. I just see so many people using Emp and Fell Cleave together (I know what it looks like) without actually having checked them to see the WS on it.

[Cream_Soda]

No, but there is a reason SE made relics such high D in trials no? don't it seem that was an attempt to work around the things you just listed and trying to make them better then emps?

Like i said before the way SE has some stats on gear it seems random stats are thown on them and hope it works, that never gets tested so we tell them why it does not work as it should.


maybe, maybe not, but at this point, it's all speculation.


I don't pay to be spoonfed equipment. There are more than enough free MMOs that can do that for me. Relics take MINIMUM 1month, 1week, and 1day if you completely exclude gil acquisition. That's 5x the amount of time for an Emp. There is a clear difference. Including Gil adds anywhere from 1 day (RMT) to a few Months (if you have a reliable supply) to a few years (if you spend time actually playing and not grinding gil). I'm siding with relic because relic requires being a real player, not a gear-whore or an abyssea-spammer.
The only reason it even takes that long is because of the time you have to wait between dynamis runs, that's not time spent doing work.

If you did an emp, and only put in the same number of hours as you did on a dynamis weapon, it'd take longer if you're excluding the gil.

For example, 2 nights a week dyna, 4 hr runs. Do 4 hrs and 2 nights a week upgrading an emp. The only diff is that you can do an emp whenever you want and for dyna you have to wait (which won't even be the case as of next update)

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Still waiting for an asnwer to my question Tsukino_KajiWait for an answer and not accepting the answer you were given are two differnet things.

[Rambus]

That is an error on my part. I'm only intimately familiar with Dagger Magians, I know the paths for perp- and that's it for my other weapon. I just see so many people using Emp and Fell Cleave together (I know what it looks like) without actually having checked them to see the WS on it.
DRK and WAR can use Fell Cleave, the emp ws for GA is called Ukko's fury.

Fell Cleave is for AoE farming in abyssea but.. blu does it best XD

Cream_Soda relics are a MIN 10 days, and thats assuming you have all the money on the first day.

1>2: JP midnight
2>3: 1 week from trade
3>4: 82 hrs
4>5 : no wait

and you are assuming things, you do not know if that update is going to allow you to make relics faster, it might we do not know, like you said speculation.

relics and mythics take more work and time then emps, should be no argue to that.

Tsukino_Kaji , answer my question to show your not making a false statment:


Every expansion had it, there are too many count. In every expansion what people were using was replaced by what was new. If not, you'd still be wearing your full RSE all the time.

I disagree with that, i told you why, ball is in your court.

[Cream_Soda]

how meny salavge amor was real improvement? I count morr body, morr pants, morr feet ( RDM)
full mori set for magic casting ( blu) skadi hands for ws ( RNG), skadi pants for tp ( in specific STP setups, RNG) usu feet ( SAM ) full usu ( pup I guess)
Ares legs for ws. Then those got beat out by the later released hachiryu haidate.

Usu was definitely an upgrade for mnk.

[InfamousDS]

maybe, maybe not, but at this point, it's all speculation.


The only reason it even takes that long is because of the time you have to wait between dynamis runs, that's not time spent doing work.

If you did an emp, and only put in the same number of hours as you did on a dynamis weapon, it'd take longer if you're excluding the gil.

For example, 2 nights a week dyna, 4 hr runs. Do 4 hrs and 2 nights a week upgrading an emp. The only diff is that you can do an emp whenever you want and for dyna you have to wait (which won't even be the case as of next update)
I didn't mean "exclude" as in farm. I meant exclude as in "oh look, I have a few million gil in currency just sitting here, as well as the drops from the NM". Those are the ACTUAL RL waits you are required by SE to follow before you can fight the final Weapon NM. I was being exceptionally generous and giving you all the items you would need.

[Taint]

I bet if empyrean upgrade items were sellable/tradable, none of the desperatly holding onto the past threads would exist.

Many people including myself would have 5-10 Emps if the items were sellable.
Relics do take more then some mindless killing...I went 1/35 for my Yoichi test sitting on full currency for 10 months before giving up. (got test doing Apoc 90 trial 18 months later) I didn't finish a Mythic because I couldn't find a competent group to kill the 3 Toau kings, or a group that cared to. I had the alex (18k/30k barely trying), nyzul and einherjar parts done. My 90 emp was done 1/3 in LS, 1/3 with friends and 1/3 just standing near the ??? and helping randoms proc blue/red in exchange for hearts, it took a little over a week. Relics/Mythics deserve a boost because they were once and still are a major accomplishment. Emps are a dime a dozen. In my LS which has been around for years we have 1 Relic remaining and a dozen or so emps, most were done since Feb 1st. Yes the novelty of a Relic/Mythic is long gone, but the effort and accomplishment far exceeds what they are doing with Emps. And dont get me started on the 8k or so mobs I grinded through, most relics quit because of the gayness of those trials.

[Cream_Soda]

We want relics to be better because they ARE better
If they were better, then you wouldn't have all these "zomg why do relics do less damage than emps" threads would we?

[Krashport]

[dev100x] Relic & Mythic Weapon Adjustments
(Yes I really hope that this becomes a dev topic)

Problem: While adventurers are enjoying abyssea and treasures attained including the mighty empyrean weapons, balance between these new weapons and the previous top tier weapons introduced(relics & mythics) are being ignored. We understand the development team's support on making the game oriented for casual playing(less time grind, enjoy the game more) however this should not be a reason to ignore the balance and disregard the efforts put in by players whom attained relic and mythic weapons. Although the concept of relics will be the best is no longer justified due to times changed, relic/mythic weapon owners still believe that relics and mythic weapons should still be comparable to empyrean weapons considering the amount of time and effort spent.

Solution: Please adjust the Weapon Skill Damage Modifiers for the Relic & Mythic Weapon Skills to be on par with Empyrean Weapon Skills. Relic & Mythic Weapons do not necessarily need to be better than Empyrean Weapons but the damage output difference of thousands is not really acceptable. So please, Development Team, give attention on this area and apply adjustments.


I Agree but we still have 9 more levels to go w/in updates, I'm sure SE will make it right.

[InfamousDS]

If they were better, then you wouldn't have all these "zomg why do relics do less damage than emps" threads would we?

Because you are a mindless number zombie, incapable of seeing beyond high damage.

[Cream_Soda]

Because you are a mindless number zombie, incapable of seeing beyond high damage.
You seem to be the same, because if that were not the case, you'd be fine w/ them currently "being better" and not need to see the highest damage on them.

but the fact you aren't seeing those high numbers on relics and crying about it means you're exactly what you're accusing me of.

[Rambus]

Ares legs for ws. Then those got beat out by the later released hachiryu haidate.

Usu was definitely an upgrade for mnk.

yeah i didn't get into ares, body is good for soloing drg/mage and ws piece for all jobs i think? that use it

I wanted hachiryu haidate so bad for rng ><

about mnk, full time 5/5 when it came out?

I was not calling salvage useless jsut people overrate all 5 and fulltiming all 5 and that those 5 did not replace everything before it.

[InfamousDS]

You seem to be the same, because if that were not the case, you'd be fine w/ them currently "being better" and not need to see the highest damage on them.

but the fact you aren't seeing those high numbers on relics and crying about it means you're exactly what you're accusing me of.

I have said at least once my only complaint is with them being better without requiring the same or more effort. I have also said that if everyone didn't live in Abyssea, I wouldn't even care about them being better at all, because that is where these weapons are so overpowered. Your chief argument against relic supporters is "get over yourself, get over it, and go make one". My chief argument is that, even if you were magically given all items for both, the Empyrean would 38x faster (38 days if you use a 30 day month, and a 7 day week, using the minimum absolute, and unchangeable 1 month, 1 week, and 1 day) because there isn't any restriction holding back their acquisition. I want relics to be better because the system is abused and drastically unfair. You want things to stay the same so you can keep bragging about 5k+ damage on your "got it yesterday without trying" weapon.

[Cream_Soda]

about mnk, full time 5/5 when it came out?


Full usu was better for all things concerning damage since day 1 and was until af3+2 came out. Even a hachiryu haramaki mix and match didn't beat full usu back at 75


I want relics to be better because the system is abused and drastically unfair. Well, they're lifting restrictions on dynamis soon and you'll be able to spam it all you want. So that covers that complaint.


"got it yesterday without trying" weapon. I tried very hard for my weapon. I've no clue what you're talking about.

I leveld whm on a second character and did the majority of it myself. Some people spend 12 hours in Tahrongi to finish their first stage ukon, vereth, etc, but I spent 6-12 hours a day for two and a half weeks straight to do mine.


I have also said that if everyone didn't live in Abyssea, I wouldn't even care about them being better at all, because that is where these weapons are so overpowered.
considering Abyssea is done and the next content to come out is going to be outside of abyssea, this will very soon be an invalid argument as well.

[Rambus]

Just wondering if anyone read this:


Many people including myself would have 5-10 Emps if the items were sellable.
Relics do take more then some mindless killing...I went 1/35 for my Yoichi test sitting on full currency for 10 months before giving up. (got test doing Apoc 90 trial 18 months later) I didn't finish a Mythic because I couldn't find a competent group to kill the 3 Toau kings, or a group that cared to. I had the alex (18k/30k barely trying), nyzul and einherjar parts done. My 90 emp was done 1/3 in LS, 1/3 with friends and 1/3 just standing near the ??? and helping randoms proc blue/red in exchange for hearts, it took a little over a week. Relics/Mythics deserve a boost because they were once and still are a major accomplishment. Emps are a dime a dozen. In my LS which has been around for years we have 1 Relic remaining and a dozen or so emps, most were done since Feb 1st. Yes the novelty of a Relic/Mythic is long gone, but the effort and accomplishment far exceeds what they are doing with Emps. And dont get me started on the 8k or so mobs I grinded through, most relics quit because of the gayness of those trials.

I am going to side with InfamousDS and that it does not work the other way around mr soda. Abyssea and its dang Atmas, with the amount of them there are and the little time they where made, you REALLY think there was thought and testing behind them? They are random stats like how I claim PW staff was made.

I would like some details on what emps outdo what relics outside abyssea.

When I say mythics need boosting its because stuff like BLM mythic, SCH mythic and so on underperform magin staffs no matter where they are, and HQ staffs prob outdo SCH mythic under potency atmas ( may get close to blm mythic, I dont know for sure I never ran the numbers) My statments is based on the math I know at level 75.

hey taint how do you make your money now a days anyway? its liek abyssea killed everything, or at lest feels that way.


Well, they're lifting restrictions on dynamis soon and you'll be able to spam it all you want. So that covers that complaint.
you atre assuming drop rates will be the same and that people will sell them for the same.

[Cream_Soda]

I would like some details on what emps outdo what relics outside abyssea.
I can't speak for all weapons, but Vereth outdo Spharai for sure, just not as huge of a margin as inside of abyssea.

[InfamousDS]

Dynamis isn't the issue. Look-up the relic weapons, you'll find yours is still twice as fast as the absolute minimum to make them Cream. Trial of the Magians is, at the very root, the problem. You can, at best (with no 100s), get ~400 city currency a run. You need at least 1 10,000 currency to make a weapon, which means every Dynamis gets you .04% closer to finishing just 1 part. However, the Empyrean needs only 50 of an enemy drop, and with 18 spawns, you can (at best) get 36 drops. That's 72% a run. No, that isn't easier in any way. And while Dyna saves the 10k for last, Emp use the constant 50 after the last timed NM. The systems are nothing alike and they strongly favor Emp weapons. This is my problem, notice damage is only mentioned here at the end.

[Cream_Soda]

Well obviously your problem is with relics then, which they are adjusting dyna, so they'll be easier to get in the end. Well more take less time than being easier. They're already easy, just time consuming.

[Gaspee]

Well obviously your problem is with relics then, which they are adjusting dyna, so they'll be easier to get in the end. Well more take less time than being easier. They're already easy, just time consuming.

Relics for everyone!

[Rambus]

It does not matter if they are changing dyna.....

Relics and mythics still take more time then emps.

even if you can enter everyday it is ppossible they take longer to make then what we know now (not likey but they can change drop rates) . you're assuming.


Relics for everyone!
like how i see emp weapons?

[Cream_Soda]

It does not matter if they are changing dyna.....

Relics and mythics still take more time then emps.

even if you can enter everyday it is ppossible they take longer to make then what we know now (not likey but they can change drop rates) . you're assuming.


like how i see emp weapons?
It really comes down to how much money you have. If you have money and only need fragments and papers, then relics can very well take less time than emps, provided you can enter all you want.

[Gaspee]

like how i see emp weapons?

That will likely be the case.

[InfamousDS]

Well obviously your problem is with relics then, which they are adjusting dyna, so they'll be easier to get in the end. Well more take less time than being easier. They're already easy, just time consuming.

Or they could instead make Empyreans a real challenge.

Farming Only (using previous numbers):
Relic: 2500 runs, or 2500days (in the new system), which amounts to ~83 months(30day) of daily dynamis. For just the 10k currency. Buying is only viable option.
Empyrean: 2 runs @ 4hours each, 8 hours total. If you can recruit more spawns, you can cut just 1 stage down to around 6 hours, mats cannot be bought.

The difference is extremely clear, the only reason relic is "easy" is if you have unreasonable amounts of gil. And if you go 1/1 on the rare NM that are required kills. Oh, and if you find some way to bypass the 38 day wait, which is far longer then any empyrean story from the last 3 months. They were hard at first, but not anymore, and it was better when they were.

[Rambus]

That will likely be the case.

cool ill try get all the relics and emps in a month and get back to ya how that goes.

what is this 38 wait? relics are at smallest 10 days, that gives you a few tries getting paper and drop if you have money before hand.

[Cream_Soda]

The waits add absolutely nothing to the challenge. You have to wait for the goblin to upgrade it. What's the challenge in that? "oh hey, it's so difficult to trade him a couple items and not even have to log on till he's done upgrading it!"

[Gaspee]

cool ill try get all the relics and emps in a month and get back to ya how that goes.

Good luck with that.

[Rambus]

The waits add absolutely nothing to the challenge. You have to wait for the goblin to upgrade it. What's the challenge in that? "oh hey, it's so difficult to trade him a couple items and not even have to log on till he's done upgrading it!"

still a limit on how meny can be made, 4 emps for every relic if all done at min time.

mythics and relics are rarer, take longer then emp weapons.

So what is the issue with buffing these? emp should be best cuz its new? lol

[Cupofnoodles]

lower the alexadrite from 14,000 to like 5000

[Rambus]

lower the alexadrite from 14,000 to like 5000

you really a grey hair taru? or brown? hard to tell anyways creepy sig

You need 30k atm, used to be 50k I could with 5k but you still have the problems taint talked about and who does ein anymore?

[Gaspee]

emp should be best cuz its new? lol

My new iPhone is definitely better than my old one. Hurray for apples and oranges! xD

[Gaspee]

lower the alexadrite from 14,000 to like 5000

Love your sig, lol!

[Tsukino_Kaji]

you really a grey hair taru? or brown? hard to tell anyways crappy sig

You need 30k atm, used to be 50k I could with 5k but you still have the problems taint talked about and who does ein anymore?They 4-6 man it to get the stuff for thier individual mythics.

[Rambus]

My new iPhone is definitely better than my old one. Hurray for apples and oranges! xD

FFIX=/= RL
FFXI =/= wow

like i said earlier how often did SE replace weapons or gear in being 75? Almost none.

Some gear was improvement, small though. for most new gear coming out it meant a new macro more than anything.

2003/2004 gear was still good the days before level cap.

so yeah new =/= better.


They 4-6 man it to get the stuff for thier individual mythics.

I never tried at 90 but a troll that keeps spitting out trolls then does a heavy damage aoe + bad breath effect must be really easy for 4-6 people

[Cream_Soda]

still a limit on how meny can be made, 4 emps for every relic if all done at min time.

mythics and relics are rarer, take longer then emp weapons.

So what is the issue with buffing these? emp should be best cuz its new? lol
I've no issue w/ anything being buffed. If that's what they want to do, then so be it. My issue is w/ relic owner's sense of entitlement, like SE owes them something, lol.

[InfamousDS]

I finally figured out a solution that will please everybody. SE should release Aliment Weapons, you get one of every type as soon as you log-on, 2 if they are 1-hand weapons. There would also be a shield involved. All weapons are all jobs @ level1, and have every WS for that weapon class. DMG is Level*3, CritRate +50%, CritDamage +100%, All stats +100. Then everything we're talking about would be completely irrelevant.

[Rambus]

I've no issue w/ anything being buffed. If that's what they want to do, then so be it. My issue is w/ relic owner's sense of entitlement, like SE owes them something, lol.

Are you kidding??? this thread been so much shorter if it was not for this nonsense.

I never said I was entitled to anything I never said I should do 40% damage and you 20% because I have a relic. I just don’t like what the opposing stance is, "you should get crap oned because you are suck up and RMT for your weapon" "new = better so relic needs to be outdated." Such things seem really shallow to me and I do not make sense of it.

Some relics really suck, some mythics really suck. Like I have said many times now people are only speaking out on that fact now that emps exist.
Since SE shown ignore to mythics I find the need to speak out and say “Hey it is time to fix this”


I finally figured out a solution that will please everybody. SE should release Aliment Weapons, you get one of every type as soon as you log-on, 2 if they are 1-hand weapons. There would also be a shield involved. All weapons are all jobs @ level1, and have every WS for that weapon class. DMG is Level*3, CritRate +50%, CritDamage +100%, All stats +100. Then everything we're talking about would be completely irrelevant.

So mages are still crap on -.- yay

[Cream_Soda]

I never said I was entitled to anything
You specifically, no, but it was a general statement, not one specifically to you. Go look at all the other fix relic threads. They definitely have a sense of entitlement issue.

[InfamousDS]

You specifically, no, but it was a general statement, not one specifically to you. Go look at all the other fix relic threads. They definitely have a sense of entitlement issue.

Real Life Comparison:

You spend 6 years saving up to buy a nice house. It is a lot of work, but you are happy with your decision. Your look at your neighbor's home, and decide to start a conversation because it is larger and is aesthetically nicer. You assume they have worked longer than you, and thus have also earned it. When speaking with them, you learn that you are relatives, and they were left the house in a will for an uncle you both knew quite well (despite never seeing each other). Would you not feel the least bit entitled to the nicer home, considering the relative did almost nothing compared to you?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Real Life Comparison:

You spend 6 years saving up to buy a nice house. It is a lot of work, but you are happy with your decision. Your look at your neighbor's home, and decide to start a conversation because it is larger and is aesthetically nicer. You assume they have worked longer than you, and thus have also earned it. When speaking with them, you learn that you are relatives, and they were left the house in a will for an uncle you both knew quite well (despite never seeing each other). Would you not feel the least bit entitled to the nicer home, considering the relative did almost nothing compared to you?Not at all. And any real life compairison to justify a digital one is a bad example.

[Cream_Soda]

Real Life Comparison:

You spend 6 years saving up to buy a nice house. It is a lot of work, but you are happy with your decision. Your look at your neighbor's home, and decide to start a conversation because it is larger and is aesthetically nicer. You assume they have worked longer than you, and thus have also earned it. When speaking with them, you learn that you are relatives, and they were left the house in a will for an uncle you both knew quite well (despite never seeing each other). Would you not feel the least bit entitled to the nicer home, considering the relative did almost nothing compared to you?
Not at all. Why would I care that someone got their house willed to them? That has 0 to do with me. If I wasn't such an Ahole, maybe my uncle would have left me something, but I'm not in any way shape or form entitled to him leaving me something.

[Rambus]

You specifically, no, but it was a general statement, not one specifically to you. Go look at all the other fix relic threads. They definitely have a sense of entitlement issue.

and the opposing side has more of the rest of my post you replayed to.

both sides are getting a bit obnoxious i guess.


Not at all. And any real life compairison to justify a digital one is a bad example.

like the car one you did to me?


A valient effort Dew but his ears are def to opinions in conflict of his own. He's lost his old trophy to new toys and is scrambling to keep up to the sport car with his station wagon.

[Gaspee]

Real Life Comparison:

You spend 6 years saving up to buy a nice house. It is a lot of work, but you are happy with your decision. Your look at your neighbor's home, and decide to start a conversation because it is larger and is aesthetically nicer. You assume they have worked longer than you, and thus have also earned it. When speaking with them, you learn that you are relatives, and they were left the house in a will for an uncle you both knew quite well (despite never seeing each other). Would you not feel the least bit entitled to the nicer home, considering the relative did almost nothing compared to you?

Hmmm... but I was just told....


FFIX=/= RL

I don't know what to believe anymore!

[InfamousDS]

Not at all. And any real life compairison to justify a digital one is a bad example.

Funny thing about human emotion, it isn't bound by programming code. Why wouldn't you feel entitled? You knew the uncle very well, and for the sake of argument, they spent less time with him. You essentially wasted 6 years, when you could have had one for nearly nothing like the relative.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Funny thing about human emotion, it isn't bound by programming code. Why wouldn't you feel entitled? You knew the uncle very well, and for the sake of argument, they spent less time with him. You essentially wasted 6 years, when you could have had one for nearly nothing like the relative.You're claiming I should just sit around and wait for to drop into my lap out of some sense of self entitlement.
It's that same sense self entitlement that lead to this thread's creation.

[InfamousDS]

You're claiming I should just sit around and wait for to drop into my lap out of some sense of self entitlement.
It's that same sense self entitlement that lead to this thread's creation.

No, its that same sense of anger and betrayal that started this thread. You loved your uncle, and this other relative you've never met is given something your uncle knew you were saving to get. He could have left it to you, but instead he allowed you to spend all that time and energy going into something that is now actually less.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

No, its that same sense of anger and betrayal that started this thread. You loved your uncle, and this other relative you've never met is given something your uncle knew you were saving to get. He could have left it to you, but instead he allowed you to spend all that time and energy going into something that is now actually less.That's still misguided self entitlement.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

No, its that same sense of anger and betrayal that started this thread. You loved your uncle, and this other relative you've never met is given something your uncle knew you were saving to get. He could have left it to you, but instead he allowed you to spend all that time and energy going into something that is now actually less.And, mayeb the uncle know you were better off. Maybe your cousin is too stupid to do thing for themself and needed all the help they could get.(No, that's not a game analogy. It's a realistic view of the situation you put forth.)

[Cream_Soda]

No, its that same sense of anger and betrayal that started this thread. You loved your uncle, and this other relative you've never met is given something your uncle knew you were saving to get. He could have left it to you, but instead he allowed you to spend all that time and energy going into something that is now actually less.
That's entitlement, buddy. There's nothing that says he has to give you anything at all.

[InfamousDS]

You only see it as negative because it suits your argument.

The Uncle is, of course, SE. The relative is, oh lets say Cream because they are readily available example. You are the relic owner. The only investment they have made is time. That's it. You have spent 6 years making and saving for your relic, and they spent 2 weeks making an Empyrean at no cost.

I don't own one, but I'm willing to take the banner of their side because no matter how you explain it away the fact remains: They got more for less, and I at least deserve the money I've spent since I can't get the time back. The actual least they could do is make Empyreans harder or relics more effective in Abyssea. The scales are not balanced. It may be entitlement, but it is righteous entitlement and not as self-serving as you are trying to say. If Empyreans were even CLOSE to the challenge of relics, then the fact they are better would be well-deserved. But they aren't, and so Empyreans are now owned by every jerk-off with an excess of 2 friends, a LS, or enough patience to shout. Which, btw, you can't do even with the dynamis adjustments more than once every day.

[Cream_Soda]

I never said the words "Self serving". I send "sense of entitlement" which is 100% correct. Thank you for clearing that up.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

You only see it as negative because it suits your argument.

The Uncle is, of course, SE. The relative is, oh lets say Cream because they are readily available example. You are the relic owner. The only investment they have made is time. That's it. You have spent 6 years making and saving for your relic, and they spent 2 weeks making an Empyrean at no cost.

I don't own one, but I'm willing to take the banner of their side because no matter how you explain it away the fact remains: They got more for less, and I at least deserve the money I've spent since I can't get the time back. The actual least they could do is make Empyreans harder or relics more effective in Abyssea. The scales are not balanced. It may be entitlement, but it is righteous entitlement and not as self-serving as you are trying to say. If Empyreans were even CLOSE to the challenge of relics, then the fact they are better would be well-deserved. But they aren't, and so Empyreans are now owned by every jerk-off with an excess of 2 friends, a LS, or enough patience to shout. Which, btw, you can't do even with the dynamis adjustments more than once every day.You gone from a self imposed sense of entitlement to just plain greed. Trying to keep what you achieved for yourself all the while feeling self pitty because some one else achieved the same thing earlier.

[InfamousDS]

I wasn't saying they aren't entitled. In fact, I was saying they were and using a very real example. You can say you wouldn't resent the relative, but unless you a soulless drone, you will feel avarice, anger, resentment, and even entitlement. You will hate the relative and forget everything you loved about your uncle for some time. You will complain to friends and family, and investigate why it wasn't you. This is how people react when they aren't grief-stricken, and while I never outright said it, you knew the uncle had died and had even went to the funeral (the relative didn't of course, you had never met). I took the time to include grieving into the story, you assumed it was recent.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

You can say you wouldn't resent the relative, but unless you a soulless drone, you will feel avarice, anger, resentment, and even entitlement. You will hate the relative and forget everything you loved about your uncle for some time. You will complain to friends and family, and investigate why it wasn't you. This is how people react when they aren't grief-stricken, and while I never outright said it, you knew the uncle had died and had even went to the funeral (the relative didn't of course, you had never met). I took the time to include grieving into the story, you assumed it was recent.That's nothing but plain old greed. And makes the one seeking entitlement a bad person.

[Cream_Soda]

You can say you wouldn't resent the relative, but unless you a soulless drone, you will feel avarice, anger, resentment, and even entitlement. You will hate the relative and forget everything you loved about your uncle for some time. You will complain to friends and family, and investigate why it wasn't you. Maybe that's what you would do. I'd do nothing of the sort. If he leaves me something, great. If not, oh well. I'm not that crazy over things that never belonged to me to begin with, lol.


I took the time to include grieving into the story, you assumed it was recent. I didn't assume anything. Who ever said anything about grieving. It'd still make no difference.

I'm a low maintenance person, I don't need shit from other people when they die. Getting mad because someone didn't leave you something just makes you a selfish ahole, lol (which is probably why they didn't leave you anything to begin with)

[Unctgtg]

The trial from 85-90 relic takes 2 1/2 weeks MIN. You can do 3-4 emp in that time. So SE fix the relics and Mythics.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

The trial from 85-90 relic takes 2 1/2 weeks MIN. You can do 3-4 emp in that time. So SE fix the relics and Mythics.So your request is to leave them as is, trials included, but to lower the trial requirments. That I can support.

[ffxkenshin]

You only see it as negative because it suits your argument.

The Uncle is, of course, SE. The relative is, oh lets say Cream because they are readily available example. You are the relic owner. The only investment they have made is time. That's it. You have spent 6 years making and saving for your relic, and they spent 2 weeks making an Empyrean at no cost.

I don't own one, but I'm willing to take the banner of their side because no matter how you explain it away the fact remains: They got more for less, and I at least deserve the money I've spent since I can't get the time back. The actual least they could do is make Empyreans harder or relics more effective in Abyssea. The scales are not balanced. It may be entitlement, but it is righteous entitlement and not as self-serving as you are trying to say. If Empyreans were even CLOSE to the challenge of relics, then the fact they are better would be well-deserved. But they aren't, and so Empyreans are now owned by every jerk-off with an excess of 2 friends, a LS, or enough patience to shout. Which, btw, you can't do even with the dynamis adjustments more than once every day.

Wow, I can't believe I read 14 pages of this going back and forth...

First let me state I own none of the 3 that's mention in the thread (relic, mystic, emp). I have 8 jobs to 90 now, and all was leveled to 75 before level cap, so don't start assuming/accusing me of "that new player that knows no hard work" talk.. I did not level any more new job to 90 since abyssea neither...

I was going to reply after reading what everyone has to say, and if someone already said what I was going to say, I'm just gonna not post at all, but up until your post.. i couldn't help myself but say this:

Something that took more time and effort pre-abyssea time should be of better value to the player? BS to it's core.. it's like saying.. "I spent 5 years in a HNM LS camping everyday for 3 hours for a HNM and waited in lines for all that time to get my XXXX (be it a.body, ridill, n.body, e.body, etc,etc), that XXXX needs to be the top notch piece of gear compare to the easy to get AF3+1, Irongiant gear, etc, etc" (yes I'm saying only +1 b/c they are even easier to get) What kind of argument is that?!

SE already admitted failure in how the original game design was bad and wanted to make a big chance for the better (time grinding on HNM for example), they make quite a few change w/ HNM, but never ever able to simply b/c those are still the considerable "best" piece you can get in game, so in the end, Abyssea came in along w/ the level increase, finally marks the sunset of a problem that EVERYONE, new and old players alike, has complained over many years. Now my question is, why the hack would people keep referring "oh that's how SE has FFXI worked for the many years we played it" ... "it should be that way still" talk.. this bothers me quite a lot..

Someone keep saying SE never meant to replace old gear pre-abyssea.. seriously? yes, there are plenty of gear that is still useful even @ 90 now-a-day, however, to state that there are nearly none is absurd... Cream_Soda already gave a few example.. enough to kick your claim .. then you come back to say .. "oh not the full set is replaced"... I believe initially you were only asking to name some piece for argument sake.. I'm not (and i'm sure those opposing your statement too) are not going to waste time trying to find the gear that did fully replace an older gear.. b/c yes we all know they exist.

To be honest.. IMO...SE did the trials for relic more than likely knowing that there will be these relic owner that will go crazy if they didn't.. maybe not so much really wanting relic.. an older than older content from the old days to still dominates...

and also while you at it.. it's the same argument over other threads about "oh how unfair of SE".. "SE shouldn't this".. "SE shouldn't that".. dynamis WILL be made easier.. ancient currency will "cost" (gil or effort wise) less.. the nm to upgrade due to level increase has become a TON easier than it is pre-abyssea.. so what's your next complaint? "damn i spend good 2 years to get my relic.. why should ppl be able to get it in 3 months or less.. that's so unfair.. SE should make relic that was obtained pre-abyssea 1-2 tier stronger than those newly obtained".... I can see it coming if not already in ppl's mind or already on forum's thread I didn't read...

[Rambus]

5/5 Usukane is not/should not be full time by nin/pup/sam/mnk.

I am sure there is better mix setups for ws ( doono about mnk)

even if mnk can tp and ws in full usu, what about tanking? and so forth..

maybe mnks can full time it but there is a lot of macro gear that uss has not replaced for mnk,nin and guessing pup since there may be pet gear to make it cast more or something? i dont know.

from 2003 to abyssea, there has not been a single piece of gear that i know off of hand that COMPELTEY got replaced.
some of that gear can still be used even now ....

name one....

there is a lot of af, af+1, relic, relic +1, other 70-75 gear that still has not got replaced.

and a level 63 weapon, level 55 belt..
technically you have replaced a set of level 51 weapons but why does it require 20-30 to completely replace those 8? ( though this is talking about past abyssea now)

[Cream_Soda]

5/5 Usukane is not/should not be full time by nin/pup/sam/mnk.

I am sure there is better mix setups for ws ( doono about mnk)
If you're talking about now, then none of the jobs should use 5/5.

If you're talking about lv 75, 5/5 usu was best for mnk and one of the, if not the best set for pup as well. Sam made use out of body and feet. Nin made use of feet.


even if mnk can tp and ws in full usu, what about tanking? and so forth..Again, if you're talking about 75, full usu also won for tanking, using PDT when (well I really never used it unless counterstance was dispelled)...

Now if you're talking about damage, every piece of usu got replaced for all jobs that could use it with the exception of pup using the legs for ws.

from 2003 to abyssea, there has not been a single piece of gear that i know off of hand that COMPELTEY got replaced.
some of that gear can still be used even now ....

name one....


A few pieces of usu still have utility in a lolevasion build, if you're trying to do that, but other than that it's worthless.

[Rambus]

Arguments is for 75, since my statement was "SE really did not replace gear pre abyssea" but the thing is what was usu replacing?

I am sure it was the best for ws/tp for pup but pup does other things.

[Cream_Soda]

Arguments is for 75, since my statement was "SE really did not replace gear pre abyssea" but the thing is what was usu replacing?

I am sure it was the best for ws/tp for pup but pup does other things.
If you're talking about mnk, usu was replacing

Turban/Togi(+1)/Bkote/Byakko's/Fuma. for TP. Usu legs replaced shura haidate+1 until it was replaced by Hachiryu Haidate. Usu shoes replaced w/e the fk mnks used (was limited lol options), until being replaced by af3+1(+2)

If you're talking pup, I had full usu before I lv'd pup, so couldn't tell you there.

[Rambus]

If you're talking about mnk, usu was replacing

Turban/Togi(+1)/Bkote/Byakko's/Fuma. for TP. Usu legs replaced shura haidate+1 until it was replaced by Hachiryu Haidate. Usu shoes replaced w/e the fk mnks used (was limited lol options), until being replaced by af3+1(+2)

If you're talking pup, I had full usu before I lv'd pup, so couldn't tell you there.

I was talking more so of relic/ af macros but I can't remember what was first, usu or relic. With byakko's legs is that it was not replaced for SAM and its still isn't. (pretty sure war, bst still used them for tp)

for sam now in regards with Byakko's pants:
with +2 though you have to say your magic capped and not using the STP witch will not be common. Still has a limited use for sam though, to go with my point SE has a hard time replacing gear.

Bkote was still used by rng then and it was still agured if skadi or bkote was best for ws.

turban was not replaced with all jobs, and now holds true till you get +1, or +2 heads for all your jobs.

even then mages dont have haste on thier heads so it can be used in macros and can be used down to puch some recasts down.

[Penance]

It only takes one week to get an empyrean? What have I been doing wrong...

I understand the problem though, I do believe that those weapons should have a similar increase. Though for one handed weapons like sword/club etc i do not feel that one should be able to dual wield these weapons and be overpowered either. I dont feel that they should be (much) better though.

But there are still updates to come in which im sure the relic/mythic will get another update.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Arguments is for 75, since my statement was "SE really did not replace gear pre abyssea" but the thing is what was usu replacing?So you're saying that pre-TAU you didn't use any gear.

[Rambus]

It only takes one week to get an empyrean? What have I been doing wrong...

I understand the problem though, I do believe that those weapons should have a similar increase. Though for one handed weapons like sword/club etc i do not feel that one should be able to dual wield these weapons and be overpowered either.

But there are still updates to come in which im sure the relic/mythic will get another update.

I am worried about some mythics.

I am talking about the ones that where useless at 75 and still useless

Mainly fits the mage ones.

lifting caps at 75 would help pld with Atonement do more damage, so there is more issues then the mythics them selfs.


So you're saying that pre-TAU you didn't use any gear.
new macro gear =/= replace.
understand this, and maybe you been missing my point.

WHAT gear that was out in 2003/3004 no longer used before abyssea?
i even listed some gear that is still used today from then.

see my usu comments

[Humie]

I think alot of you have lost the point here SE have said they were doing trials for relics to keep them up to date and relics will be the best weapons available.

Relics are no longer lvl75 weapons as they get trials so stop with the 90 emperiums should be better argument
Emperium wepons should be powerfull in there own right maybe even better than relics in some ways just not by the huge diffrence at the moment. All people wanted to do is say to SE they feel the trials havnt gone far enough.

This is a sugestion forum to SE please treat it as such if you want to argue about things there are plenty of forums which you can do so. Players leave sugestions and SE decide to take action on there points or not.

It isnt in anybodys interest for people to argue about peoples points in every thread the only thing this will achive is SE ignoring these forums as players have turned them into constant arguments instead of the feed back they requested

[Sama]

Why should weapons from 2004 be on par with gear from 2010?

Dynamis was one of if not the single worst designed end game content in the game, and it's nice to see they're (finally) taking steps towards fixing it, but I still don't see why Relics & Mythics should be equal to Empyreans. Comparable certainly, but we don't need the same old weapons dominating. Enough with the Zilart-era gear.

The fact is SE has already powered up the Relics via the level 90 versions by increasing the WS power. In fact, Amanomurakumo is only just barely second to Masamune because of Masamune's aftermath - Kaiten & Fudo are very close in performance with the 90 version.

Mythics were never meant to be high DPS weapons either. Their intent was to enhance their respective jobs, which some like Yagrush & Kenkonken do exceptionally well.

Per your interpretation I then don't understand why they WHM cure V and VI, nor any job upgrade after 2004.

[Unctgtg]

I think alot of you have lost the point here SE have said they were doing trials for relics to keep them up to date and relics will be the best weapons available.

Relics are no longer lvl75 weapons as they get trials so stop with the 90 emperiums should be better argument
Emperium wepons should be powerfull in there own right maybe even better than relics in some ways just not by the huge diffrence at the moment. All people wanted to do is say to SE they feel the trials havnt gone far enough.

This is a sugestion forum to SE please treat it as such if you want to argue about things there are plenty of forums which you can do so. Players leave sugestions and SE decide to take action on there points or not.

It isnt in anybodys interest for people to argue about peoples points in every thread the only thing this will achive is SE ignoring these forums as players have turned them into constant arguments instead of the feed back they requested

They outclass my relic by 5k in WS damage per

[Rambus]

in abyssea? ant that a bit overexertion?

what about outside abyssea? i don't see any ws doing 5k unless its on strange damage taken + mobs, lolsavage

[TearValerin]

in abyssea? ant that a bit overexertion?

what about outside abyssea? i don't see any ws doing 5k unless its on strange damage taken + mobs, lolsavage
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/DScythe99/pol2011-02-2614-18-48-82.jpg
^ My damage

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/DScythe99/Jinpu8900Spectator-1.png
^ An acquaintance's damage

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/DScythe99/pol2011-02-2423-13-12-06.jpg
A friend's damage.

How do you not see 5k+ on normal mobs?

[Rambus]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/DScythe99/pol2011-02-2614-18-48-82.jpg
^ My damage

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/DScythe99/Jinpu8900Spectator-1.png
^ An acquaintance's damage

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/DScythe99/pol2011-02-2423-13-12-06.jpg
A friend's damage.

How do you not see 5k+ on normal mobs?

normal mob as in NOT ABYSSEA -.- hate abyssea people always think your talking about abyssea only. can't wait for new content so people stop assuming its abyssea talk

and abyssea or out regardless he said 5K more then his ws.

no idea what a Spectator is

and i think your ws is on in abyssea on weak to ppiercing mob (soulds like a bee mob, I dont know that mob).... with mythic 90 right?
thought i saw that SS before talking about 90 mythics

[TearValerin]

normal mob as in NOT ABYSSEA -.- hate abyssea people always think your talking about abyssea only. can't wait for new content so people stop assuming its abyssea talk

and abyssea or out regardless he said 5K more then his ws.

no idea what a Spectator is

and i think your ws is on in abyssea on weak to ppiercing mob (soulds like a bee mob, I dont know that mob).... with mythic 90 right?
thought i saw that SS before talking about 90 mythics

None of those are weak to piercing, even outside, Drakesbane still hits a good 1500-2k. Regardless, really GOOD drg and war CAN do 5k more than alot of relic ws :\.

[Rambus]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/DScythe99/pol2011-02-2614-18-48-82.jpg

that is not a bee??? ( I dont know abyssea much sorry)


None of those are weak to piercing, even outside, Drakesbane still hits a good 1500-2k. Regardless, really GOOD drg and war CAN do 5k more than alot of relic ws :\.

where? on what?

[TearValerin]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/DScythe99/pol2011-02-2614-18-48-82.jpg

that is not a bee??? ( I dont know abyssea much sorry)

Nope, its a dragonfly.

[Rambus]

weak to piercing -.-

i bet i can oneshot them too on CA quad on blu

wait that those flys in misareaux? might have a ss of that lol

[TearValerin]

weak to piercing -.-

i bet i can oneshot them too on CA quad on blu

Meh, regardless, the Limule is a level 80 mob not weak against anything. Spectator is an Arcana Spheroid, not weak to slashing/wind either.

[Rambus]

Meh, regardless, the Limule is a level 80 mob not weak against anything. Spectator is an Arcana Spheroid, not weak to slashing/wind either.

Oh i remeber that mob too now, that mob is just plan weak.

Limule i am not too sure about those are like elements of abyssea, some are hard on melee and some arnt. I oneshoted some types on blu sc.

my point is, they are not good exmaples, when i mean normal mob even when abyssea, i mean even ground.

There is some confilt of information, some people are saying oh i seen scythe 90 do 2-3k ws.

soo... it might be weak to slash though I do not know but I am intrigued what ws and where hes talking about doing 5k less

[TearValerin]

Oh i remeber that mob too now, that mob is just plan weak.

Limule i am not too sure about those are like elements of abyssea, some are hard on melee and some arnt. I oneshoted some types on blu sc.

my point is, they are not good exmaples, when i mean normal mob even when abyssea, i mean even ground.

There is some confilt of information, some people are saying oh i seen scythe 90 do 2-3k ws.

soo... it might be weak to slash though I do not know but I am intrigued what ws and where hes talking about doing 5k less

These are even ground, they range from decent challenge to very tough @ level 90.

Scythe WS on the other hand are fairly weak in comparison, low FTP/WSC mods, no critting, etc. Hitting 2-3k is a lucky triple attack.

[Rambus]

These are even ground, they range from decent challenge to very tough @ level 90.

Scythe WS on the other hand are fairly weak in comparison, low FTP/WSC mods, no critting, etc. Hitting 2-3k is a lucky triple attack.

I know scythe can use improvement but you cant use his numbers when he might be doing a strong type of mob when your posting pics on weak types ( mob level does not matter)

and one was even weak to the weapon type you are using, I can go on here saying BLU is op because it oneshots 15 mobs at once, its not the job's fault its more of the OP atmas.

Remember my original question was how do other jobs do 5k more then you on ws, not that you are doing 5k with a ws. I was interested in his damage numbers.

[ffxkenshin]

First of all...I don't understand why we are still sticking to the point that old content is not to be replaced by new. EVEN if it was SE's "way of doing" things pre-abyssea (which I don't think it's fully true).. it needs to be changed and is SE direct intention to have it changed b/c of all the issue the community has reflected on SE about waste of time (time grinding) in 1-3 camps.....

so you need example of here fully replace then here it is:
Sarutobi Kyahan (Haste +3%).. once thought to be the best TP piece for MNK/SAM/NIN is fully replaced by Fuma Sune-Ate (Haste +3% HP+12 AGI+3)
so there you have it.. to counter what you say about there isn't a single piece replaced... if your argument is there are still useful gear pre-75 (pre-abyssea we talking about) that is still good @ 75, then of course, any player should knows that already.. but your argument is SE never intent to replace old gear.. that is totally false
in case you say not enough example and that you want something about relic replaced
Healer's Cap fully replaced by Yigit Turban and/or Goliard Chapeau
Wizard's Petasos replaced by Demon's Helm or +1
Myochin Sune-Ate (for evasion in case you need it) fully replace a few feet evasion gear ( one comes to mind is one that offer +6 evasion and parry skill, can think of name at the moment)

Again there are many more, but I'm not gonna waste more time looking.. and more over, stop contradicting yourselves with 5/5 set have to replace 5/5 of another set, and then go and say not using 5/5 but mixing in is better most of the time, b/c yes it's true that mixing gear mostly is best for any given job, which is exactly why we look at individual piece being replaced, not a full 5/5 set being replaced by another 5/5 set.

SE thank you for changing your way of doing things (more time grinder = better geared player) such that we no longer need to grind time everyday to get that 1 or 2 great pieces, b/c now we have better piece of gear to get that isn't a time sink anymore.. ignore the good-old-day-er that just can't take changes.. changes for the better!

[Tummie]

I understand where relic players are coming from. Relics took a lot of time to accomplish and now they are overshadowed by better weapons (Empyereans) that takes less time to upgrade. Relics were supposed to be the top tier in weapons, however, there are some issues with it.

First, you have a high damage weapon, but for the most part, a weaponskill tied to it with less damage than other choices/weapons. They do need to buff the weaponskills by allowing them to auto-crit (Or auto super-crit not stackable with Sneak Attack) or apply a damage modification that is larger than what they currently have on the level 90 verisons. +25% damage or whatever it may be isn't equal across all damage types (1H vs 2H).

Second, they need to increase the super critical rate to be on par with the ODD from empyreans. This shouldn't be too hard for them to do.

And lastly, give players a reason to USE the weaponskills. Some of the aftermath effects on the relics are ok, but why not add a second effect. With Final Heaven not only give enhanced Subtle Blow, why not also add Enhanced Kick Attack Rate? Geirskogul could add a second effect of Haste, Onslaught enhancing Killer Effects, etc.

[Rambus]

First of all...I don't understand why we are still sticking to the point that old content is not to be replaced by new. EVEN if it was SE's "way of doing" things pre-abyssea (which I don't think it's fully true).. it needs to be changed and is SE direct intention to have it changed b/c of all the issue the community has reflected on SE about waste of time (time grinding) in 1-3 camps.....

so you need example of here fully replace then here it is:
Sarutobi Kyahan (Haste +3%).. once thought to be the best TP piece for MNK/SAM/NIN is fully replaced by Fuma Sune-Ate (Haste +3% HP+12 AGI+3)
so there you have it.. to counter what you say about there isn't a single piece replaced... if your argument is there are still useful gear pre-75 (pre-abyssea we talking about) that is still good @ 75, then of course, any player should knows that already.. but your argument is SE never intent to replace old gear.. that is totally false
in case you say not enough example and that you want something about relic replaced
Healer's Cap fully replaced by Yigit Turban and/or Goliard Chapeau
Wizard's Petasos replaced by Demon's Helm or +1
Myochin Sune-Ate (for evasion in case you need it) fully replace a few feet evasion gear ( one comes to mind is one that offer +6 evasion and parry skill, can think of name at the moment)

Again there are many more, but I'm not gonna waste more time looking.. and more over, stop contradicting yourselves with 5/5 set have to replace 5/5 of another set, and then go and say not using 5/5 but mixing in is better most of the time, b/c yes it's true that mixing gear mostly is best for any given job, which is exactly why we look at individual piece being replaced, not a full 5/5 set being replaced by another 5/5 set.

SE thank you for changing your way of doing things (more time grinder = better geared player) such that we no longer need to grind time everyday to get that 1 or 2 great pieces, b/c now we have better piece of gear to get that isn't a time sink anymore.. ignore the good-old-day-er that just can't take changes.. changes for the better!

that is like saying ohh leaping boots was replaced to disprove what you where saying...

but you know what ill use your exmaples anyway.

that 3 % haste vs (Haste +3% HP+12 AGI+3)

that is not thousands of damage difference. Why bring up yiget when there is Mahatma gear?

and guess what? with regards of af for WHM , the af +1 ( omg old gear upgrade) stops on the other gear you listed.

DH+1 is old gear and so is maats cap. the AF upgraded to AF+1 was a good balance of power and -enm, same with the Mahatma hat.

All that gear can be argued what is best in y situation thus goes back to my statement how new gear made new macros.

I find it funny you brought up yiget in the first place, that was mainly for a resting set for all the jobs that used it and an alt body for brd that costs lots of money.

your comparisons is right up there with the guy saying asking relics to compare to emp weapons in abyssea is jsut like trying to get an onion sword buffed.

all you did was prove my point more.

The only change I see that you want is to laugh at people that took the time to upgrade these relic weapons. That is not a good change.

SE had allowed to upgrade gear before ( look what i said about af) why should relic weapons be any different?

[Ethereal]

Not sure if this was mentioned, what about adding occasionally reflects magic damage taken to aegis.

[Rambus]

Not sure if this was mentioned, what about adding occasionally reflects magic damage taken to aegis.

I agree, there needs to be extra bonuses to get around that MDT cap, like allowing blocking on magic damage at a rate the emp shield does on physical.

[Unctgtg]

bump for SE

[Humie]

They outclass my relic by 5k in WS damage per
I also have a relic (aegis) and the emperium shield out classes my relic but this constant arguing over silly little points that dont even effect most people posting needs to stop

This is a forum for feed back not argueing and constant one ups man ship over the previous post please treat it as such or SE will start ignoring these forums due to the crap that litters these forums

[Unctgtg]

I also have a relic (aegis) and the emperium shield out classes my relic but this constant arguing over silly little points that dont even effect most people posting needs to stop

This is a forum for feed back not argueing and constant one ups man ship over the previous post please treat it as such or SE will start ignoring these forums due to the crap that litters these forums

I have stated this many times in different topics, its the trolls that want everything handfed to them. This is not WOW as most players want it to be

[Rambus]

I have stated this many times in different topics, its the trolls that want everything handfed to them. This is not WOW as most players want it to be

Yeah I am sorry for making the problem worse by replaying to them.

ill try to think more with how i replay to things, thanks Humie

[Auredant]

Crysten if any one is comeing across as mad it's you with your deranged rants. We have reason to be justified with how bad se have shit on relic holders, if only you had finished that aegis you may understand but no because your a terrible player you never managed to fund it in time, so you went with massa the easiest path of empyreans and still want these joke to get weapons to be the best in game.

Btw woman/thing/it the level 85-90 relic alone takes longer to do than your joke of a weapon did, but as i said you were so terrible you couldn't get one made even though you fully admit to working on a aegis then in the same thread spew your nonsense about how easy relics were to get yet you never managed it. Stupid woman.
and this is not a frothing at the mouth deranged rant?

[Flunklesnarkin]

Relic / Mythic adjustments .. hmmmm

They should make them into furniture items you can place in your moghouse ;o

/thread

[Auredant]

I don't pay to be spoonfed equipment. There are more than enough free MMOs that can do that for me. Relics take MINIMUM 1month, 1week, and 1day if you completely exclude gil acquisition. That's 5x the amount of time for an Emp. There is a clear difference. Including Gil adds anywhere from 1 day (RMT) to a few Months (if you have a reliable supply) to a few years (if you spend time actually playing and not grinding gil). I'm siding with relic because relic requires being a real player, not a gear-whore or an abyssea-spammer.
Correction...relic requires being a real farmer! Not that I'm diminishing the effort it takes to farm the amount of gil but i would hardly amount that to player skill.

[Auredant]

you really a grey hair taru? or brown? hard to tell anyways crappy sig

You need 30k atm, used to be 50k I could with 5k but you still have the problems taint talked about and who does ein anymore?
more might if they saw a light at the end of the mythic tunnel

[Rambus]

>< creepy i ment opps i hope i did not offend him.
everytime i see it i stare at it.

I think the spell check changed my word, im so sorry ><

[Auredant]

5/5 Usukane is not/should not be full time by nin/pup/sam/mnk.

I am sure there is better mix setups for ws ( doono about mnk)

even if mnk can tp and ws in full usu, what about tanking? and so forth..

maybe mnks can full time it but there is a lot of macro gear that uss has not replaced for mnk,nin and guessing pup since there may be pet gear to make it cast more or something? i dont know.

from 2003 to abyssea, there has not been a single piece of gear that i know off of hand that COMPELTEY got replaced.
some of that gear can still be used even now ....

name one....

there is a lot of af, af+1, relic, relic +1, other 70-75 gear that still has not got replaced.

and a level 63 weapon, level 55 belt..
technically you have replaced a set of level 51 weapons but why does it require 20-30 to completely replace those 8? ( though this is talking about past abyssea now)
this logic is flawed because ur comparing replacing gear with replacing weps....weps get replaced all the time...every 5 to 10 levels in fact...gear is not a suitable comparison because of all the set u need to complete maximize ur character

[Unctgtg]

Bumping this for Returner1

And that SE doesn't forgot to add this for Monday.

[Bersty]

Just some things I've had on my mind for a while now; as discussed on Episode 250 of Pet Food Alpha. The following are some of the things I feel could/should be adjusted to balance the playing field for obtaining a Mythic vs. Empyrean:

1. ZNMs - If there are no plans to change the current format of ZNMs (i.e. maintain them as they are now, farming Zeni, purchasing pop items, etc.) then at the very least, the ZNM kings need to have a drastically higher drop rate for the trophies (I don't think I'm unreasonable in saying they could/should very well even be 100%). This alone would make it more comparable to what you see with Empyrean NM farming (that the drop items have at least 1 that is 100%, the second is 50% or what have you). Personally, I'm not directly opposed to the idea of revamping ZNMs to adopt the VNM format, like VNMs or hate them, either way they provide a much better system overall than the Zeni system.

2. Balrahn's Eyepatch - This is the first of the real tedious items required for advancement in the Mythic quest, personally, my thought process here is it either needs to be a drop from all Einherjar bosses (including Odin) or the cost for this must simply be reduced (assuming the same structure is to be maintained for Einherjar as we know it now). The other suggestion I could present here is a revamp of Einherjar to a similar system of the new Dynamis (i.e. Key Item instead of Lantern, enter once daily, etc.). Either way you look at it, this is one aspect of the quest that does need to be looked at in one shape or another, not that obtaining 100k Therion Ichor is impossible, it is just dauntingly time consuming in comparison to the time one would spend killing NMs for an Empyrean and basically stems back to the limitations on entry conditions.

3. 30,000 Alexandrite - This is seemingly where people focus the most of their attention when they think of the current problems in building a Mythic weapon. It appears the basic consensus on the forums is that Salvage is dead. There was some mention a while back about adjusting it, here is what I believe should/could be done: It all stems back to the tags that are required for both Nyzul and Assault missions. The stones system is quite flawless at the end of the day in comparison. Perhaps what should be done for starters, is allow tags to re-accumulate at par with the rate of stones; consequently, this would allow players to eliminate the issue of choosing Salvage vs. Nyzul Isle vs. Assault missions and having to conserve tags. The main principle behind this idea is that it would allow for more of everything, plain and simple. This way, players could enter multiple versions of these events daily, and allow more flexibility and variety in the activities required for obtaining Mythic weapons.

With regards to the aforementioned Alexandrite, it either needs to become available outside of Salvage (via mobs such as the gears in Abyssea-Uleguerand), or the drop rates need to be increased and added to all mobs inside of Salvage. One thing I had discussed on the Podcast was that it would be quite appropriate for the Salvage chariots to drop a guaranteed amount (be it 100, 200, 1000, etc.) this would allow for people to accumulate more, and in a more streamlined fashion with what we see in Abyssea and Dynamis "2.0".

4. Assault Missions - Personally, I believe the current system of obtaining Captain is an excellent and worthwhile aspect of the quest as a whole. What I do have an issue with is the things highlighted above (limitations to the amount of assaults per day/week) and most importantly, the fact that they need to be done a second time afterwards. My suggestion here is that the second round of these quests should just be removed, entirely.

In conclusion, I think there is still a great deal of players who share a great interest in creating an empyrean; however, the current system in place is neither fun or effective (in terms of a small group focus building one). Many improvements could be done be it through the suggestions I have made; or further, through removing some of the conditions entirely (although I think that personally many of these should remain untouched, such as: The killing of all of the major Aht Urghan beastmen leaders, ZNM kings, and Odin. My hopes are that in the weeks to come the development will shed some light on what they are currently working on in regards to adjustments for the Mythic weapons and other Aht Urghan content (Salvage, Einherjar, Nyzul Isle, etc.).

~B