[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RNG

[Inafking]

I don't use RNG for anything but a sub for NMs (yes, it's at 50 instead of 1). But I think they've been overlooking something the cheating software is useful for. RNG should be able to judge distance between himself and the target.

[Felren]

I'd like to see cheaper ammo, no more than 10k/stack for the high end ammo (Which would mean it wouldn't be super rare materials, and you could even buy some of the materials from NPC maybe?). Maybe making it a pre 60 woodworking synth would be nice. In the old days a Rng would be able to level woodworking to make their own ammo, and now its synergy...

Also, unrelated to what Rng can do, but maybe next endgame don't leave Rng out in procs like they are in abyssea? The dynamis JA/WS proc system is a good step, but is still biased in the favor of JA spammers. Being left out on abyssea procs + atmas favoring melee DD is most likely the reason you don't see many 90 rng running around. Also you used to pay for Rng ammo because the damage Rng put out was worth it, now in abyssea you can do more damage without paying 40k+ per 99 attacks, so why choose rng.....

[Inafking]

I agree about ammo. But I was afraid to say it because of the "get moar gil n00b" trolls that inevitably follow.

[Catsby]

Even if you have billions of gil you can't buy ammo if it doesn't exist.

[Ryx]

Personally, I'm jumping for joy at these new announcements. They hit the nail on the head in regards to what ranger actually NEEDS. Not to say your ammo concerns are unfounded, but they're really a minor issue in comparison to the job's inherient enmity problems.

Ranger is being rewarded with subtle blow for behaving like a ranger instead of a dual-axes warrior with sidewinder, and the MUCH-needed enmity reduction based on position that they promised us several updates ago.

Ranger's problem has ALWAYS been enmity. It's been the crippling problem since they added the distance equation, is that ranger deals its best damage at range, but doing their best damage pulls hate, the mob chases them, and they're no longer at range to do their best damage. Ranger has no defensive abilities, we can't handle having the mob in our face, trying to kill us. It's why we've subbed ninja since the dawn of time (that, and dual wield for hawker's knives in the early levels). Camoflage adjustments were cute, but they really weren't the kind of 'fix' we needed. It sounds to me like they've finally accepted this, and plan on giving us the passive effect we need it to be.

The subtle blow thing is also a wonderful addition, being that ranger uses the highest delay weapons, where subtle blow has the most effect.

I'll decide what I think about the new ability when I see it, but in the mean time, I am VERY pleased that they've accepted that ranger's problems AREN'T about our damage-dealing potential. I don't want to hear any whining about how we can't keep up with other DDs in abyssea, unless we have Jishnu's Radiance, blah, blah, blah. Abyssea isn't the end of the game, new content will come, such as more voidwatch, where ranger will be useful again.

Speaking of voidwatch, I would like to point out that the !! system isn't as well-understood at this point as abyssea's, but with the new syncronic blitz in effect, I can see ranger being VERY useful. !! gets proc'd, blitz begins, you deal as much damage as you can before the !! wears off and it raises your allignments across the board. Ranger has that controlled ability to do damage, and doesn't have to run in to melee the mob before you can start unloading the damage.

Ontop of that, ranger shines against harder mobs, which abyssea simply does not have. I'll take the Fiat Lux Shadow Lord for example - I saw well-geared two-handed melee damage go all kinds of random in that fight, but generally stayed double-digits. I saw a decently-geared samurai hit him for THREE damage at one point in the fight (was that his normal damage? No, thank Altana. Regular melee hits, if I recall, were in the 60~80 range for most 2-handers). Ranger? I hit him for 90~120 damage (depending on Minuet) every single hit with my E-bow, unless he was changing forms (and gains arrow shield for a few seconds). That was staying outside of all of his AoE attacks, providing shadowbind if things got sticky, even holding him by shadow-tanking on Rng for several minutes (never before had I been so grateful to carry haste gear for shadows on Rng). Mind you: This example was at lv75, during the first week that Asura had Fiat Lux open.

Sum things up tho: I am VERY pleased with the manifesto commentary on ranger, and that the Dev. Team has realized the problems of the job AREN'T about our damage-dealing capabilities, or what we have to offer the party.

Disclaimer: I *AM* a lv90, decently-geared & fully-merited ranger, BUT I don't get to play it very often. Voidwatch will not change this, on the grounds that I'm needed to tank them on paladin (and I enjoy doing so).

Disclaimer #2: Note that the Manifesto uses "Example" adjustments, which is to say that they're not a complete or gauranteed list of what we'll actually get. To SE: I offically APPROVE of your proposed adjustments for ranger, PLEASE don't steal the enmity reduction thing from us AGAIN.

[Spiritreaver]

I like your thinking Ryx

[Catsby]

Sure. We still need more and better ammo.

[Hoshi]

I am happy to see the enmity suggestions but I was kind of hoping for a new damage related ability as we close in on 99. Assuming enmity will no longer be an issue it will be nice to keep up with other DD without concerns of moving the NM but I worry that we'll be outdone by SAM and WAR since they're getting damage related boosts. It will definitely be nice not to have to /drg any more!

[noodles355]

The subtle blow thing is also a wonderful addition, being that ranger uses the highest delay weapons, where subtle blow has the most effect.You got that the wrong way around. Mob TP is the TP you gain+3 per strike. If you have a very high delay and gain 25TP per shot. Then when you get 100%TP, the mob will have gained 112 TP.
Compare this to a very low delay weapon. If you get 5TP per hit, then when you get 100%TP, the mob will have gained 160TP.

If you have 50% Subtle Blow, then on the high delay 25%TP/hit weapon, the mob would have only gotten 56 less TP, compared to getting 80%TP less with the low delay 5%TP/hit weapon.

Subtle Blow is most important for low delay jobs.

[Ryx]

You got that the wrong way around. Mob TP is the TP you gain+3 per strike. If you have a very high delay and gain 25TP per shot. Then when you get 100%TP, the mob will have gained 112 TP.
Compare this to a very low delay weapon. If you get 5TP per hit, then when you get 100%TP, the mob will have gained 160TP.

If you have 50% Subtle Blow, then on the high delay 25%TP/hit weapon, the mob would have only gotten 56 less TP, compared to getting 80%TP less with the low delay 5%TP/hit weapon.

Subtle Blow is most important for low delay jobs.

I'm aware of all this. And I'll admit that what I said was wrong. Subtle Blow takes off more TP/hit given to the mob on higher delay weapons, which allows us to feed less TP overall to the mob than the lower-delay weapons, especially when paired with the Store TP we have at our disposal to get bows into 5-hit /nin, and 4-hit /sam.

You are correct: Subtle Blow IS more important for the low delay weapons, which is why Ninja, Monk, and Dancer have it naturally, and plenty of gear to enhance them on it: They NEED it. It takes them far more hits, and thus feed more TP, when compared to the higher delay weapons.

The point I do mean to make is that subtle blow lets us feed less TP overall, relative to our TP gain. When you start talking about 5-hits /nin through the use of store TP, one doesn't even have to gear for subtle blow in order to feed less TP to the mob than we gain in the process. Subtle Blow as a passive effect for doing our job properly is a welcome addition, helping us further the gap between our TP gain vs. TP given.

The main thing I want to push is that I APPROVE of the direction SE is showing us for RNG, and want to see it stay on that course. They do pretend to listen to us on these forums, and as such, I don't want everything they hear from rangers to be a post about ammo concerns or how we should have auto-shoot. I may not be thrilled at their "example" adjustments for paladin, for example, but ranger's definately have me jumping for joy, provided SE delivers on them.

To SE:
YES to Subtle Blow for distance.
YES to Enmity- for positioning.
Maybe to the Trick Attack-esque ability.
And add more challenging content. Kick it up a notch in Voidwatch Part II, kthx.

/end discussion.

[noodles355]

Subtle Blow takes off more TP/hit given to the mob on higher delay weapons, which allows us to feed less TP overall to the mob than the lower-delay weaponsAlmost. If Player A (5TP/hit dagger) and Player B (25TP/hit gun) both have 0 Subtle Blow, then the Gun will give less TP to the mob over time. If they both have max Subtle Blow, the Gun will still give less TP to the mob over time. Adding Subtle Blow does not make the gun suddenly give less TP than the dagger with the same subtle blow, it always gave less TP to begin with.

To be honest, giving Subtle Blow to Ranger and not to Thief is completely rediculous. The fact that Monk, Dancer and Ninja, the other three low-delay 2-hit per round (DW or H2H) jobs get it and thief doesn't is stupid.

I'm not saying it's bad that Ranger gets it. I'm saying it's stupid that they got it over Thief. But then again, everyone seems to be getting shit over thief. Thief's Force critical ability? Meh, give it to Dnc and War too. Thf's enmity transfer? Can give that to Drg and Rng np. Thief's triple attack? Give it to Dnc, it's cool.

[Mirabelle]

-enm for distance is only useful if they fix the whole enmity equation. If it takes you two shots longer to get max enm built-up, you haven't saved the job. We need an enmity decay or shedding trait more than a reduced enmity gained for standing at a distance.

[Feliciaa]

My guess is we will get something like -10 enmity with the new trait/ability... let's hope I'm wrong and the design team shoots for something game changing instead.

[Alkalinehoe]

IDK my first impression was that it was an active duration and whenever you shot the person that was in front of you would gain the enmity for that strike (think of like an always on TA that works for Ranged Attacks). Now that I reread it, it seems less likely.

[Mojo]

Subtle Blow doesn't favor any kind of delay or weapon. It's a percentage reduction in mob TP gain. Mob TP gain itself favors higher delay weapons because there's a static +3.0 base TP gained per strike which becomes less significant with higher player weapon delay. Subtle Blow is applied after the terms (3.0 + player base TP) are summed, it is unbiased.

I think the ideas they had were alright, although to be honest what really needs to be done is an overhaul of the enmity system. Even something as simple as a cap increase would do wonders. It's a completely ridiculous when a player can cap their enmity in a single lucky weaponskill (8k+ damage will do it, not hard to achieve in Abyssea.) Enmity reduction traits just slow the inevitable reaching of the hate cap, at which point positioning gets screwed up, sometimes catastrophically.

[Feliciaa]

Too bad they won't just give rng its own enmity reduction JA on a decent timer like DRG's jumps. That alone would fix a lot.
Also, a upgrade to make rapid shot actually be effective should be something the design team looks into.
Why put rapid shot on our af3 if I can only get rapid shot to work once or twice out of a 1000 shots?

[Bayohne]

Time for some ranger love! Remember, keep the feedback and comments coming, and we'll do our best to address it!


I want the ranged attack distance correction functionality to be removed.
The distance correction functionality of ranged attacks greatly affects rangers, and based on the opinions of players, we understand that some kind of adjustment is necessary.

With that said, simply removing the distance correction functionality will not solve every problem, so we are working on adjusting the system to be more positive.


Even if the distance correction functionality can’t be removed, I at least want the range of the “sweet spot” to be increased.
We will look into this as part of the adjustments stated above.


I want the range of ranged attacks to be farther than spells.
This will make it extremely easy to dominate worm type monsters, so we have no plans of extending the range of ranged attacks.


Blast Arrow is commonly used as a close range WS, so it shouldn’t be affected by distance correction functionality.
We will look into some kind of adjustment.


I don’t like that TP is consumed even if a WS is not successful because it is out of range.
It is pretty heartbreaking when you misfire, isn’t it? This is a problem that occurs frequently for rangers that keep their distance in battles, so we will look into devising a solution.


I would like hate to decrease proportionately to your distance from the enemy.
This is part of the distance correction, but we are looking into lowering hate when using ranged attacks from the enemy’s sides or rear. Also, some ranged attack weapon skills have effects related to hate, which will also be taken into consideration.


How long will the "ability that increases enmity towards party members positioned between the ranger and his/her target" last?
This ability will last around 3 minutes, and effects will take place for every ranged attack during this time. We do not plan on implementing a long recast time.


I would like the effects of Subtle Blow to take place regardless of distance.
We are currently debating how the effects of Subtle Blow will be implemented. We are also working on adjustments for sweet spots and ranged attacks, so all of this will be decided in a balanced way. Either way, Subtle Blow will be applied with abilities, rather than as a constant job trait.


I would like Eagle Eye Shot to be reevaluated. It is a big gamble, but as you reach higher levels, it sometimes yields less damage than weapon skills.
Eagle Eye Shot has the advantage of having high accuracy, but we are looking into adding additional benefits. We think it will be best if we can add some kind of benefits other than simply yielding high damage.


I would like a hate reset effect to be added to Camouflage.
We currently have no plans of adding an ability that resets hate for ranger. We suggest forming a party with a job that can control hate, such as thief, to get around this issue.


I would like Rapid Shot to be activated every time.
This will be very difficult, since Snapshot is a trait that can be enhanced to further reduces the time in between ranged attacks, and these two would become very similar.


I would like the recast time for Stealth Shot to be lowered.
We would like to look into this when reviewing merit points, but we think that the effects of Stealth Shot are sufficient as is, so this is pretty unlikely.

[esoR]

We currently have no plans of adding an ability that resets hate for ranger. We suggest forming a party with a job that can control hate, such as thief, to get around this issue.



please tell the dev team they have greatly saddened every ranger who has played the job recently. this is the single most important ability we need to stay competitive and not die. thieves rarely are in the same party as rangers, even in low man situations, and collaborator isn't enough to keep us going.

black mages recieved enmity douse, which is what we need. it's simply not fair rng get "ask a thief" and blm gets their own JA.

[xbobx]

wow nothing about the ammo issue? That is probably the most important issue right now when rangers can't even buy ammo and when we do it is at really stupid prices.

make all ammo be able to be done via synthsis and lower the level it can be done.

[xbobx]

And how picks these stupid questions.. I want rapid shot to activate everytime, what the hell type of question is that, and noone uses blast arrow so why you asking a question about blast arrow.

[esoR]

And how picks these stupid questions.. I want rapid shot to activate everytime, what the hell type of question is that, and noone uses blast arrow so why you asking a question about blast arrow.


1/2 the questions are from the other language job forums

[Feliciaa]

What's going on???

There is nothing about the Major Ammo issue...
No Enmity Shed Job ability for a job that NEEDs to stay away from mobs and has very little defensive ability besides /nin or /sam...

And I'm 100% sure the Blast Arrow thing is someone super Trolling RNG. There is no reason to even use that WS....

RNG can't use any form of haste from others besides a roll no cor would waste their time doing unless it's a RNG only PT. How can RNG even compete with others when they have capped gear + magic haste? They can't...

[Nebo]

I would like a hate reset effect to be added to Camouflage.
We currently have no plans of adding an ability that resets hate for ranger. We suggest forming a party with a job that can control hate, such as thief, to get around this issue.

:confused:

All the proof that you will ever need that the developement team does not play this game (or just knows nothing about THF at all). :(

In what part of Vana'Diel is thief controlling enmity on anything? Trick Attack being is tied to weak relatively damage. Collaborator and Accomplice recast timers are way too long to even think about control anything....and using Accomplice prevents Collaborator use for 5 minutes (Hint: Accomplice isn't worth using...Accomplice isn't even worth its OWN 5 minute timer, let alone sharing one with collaborator)

Even if the recast was short enough to be relevant, the distance is STILL too short (thanks for that 4 yalms "increase" btw:rolleyes:). How are we supposed to Accomplorater the RANGER when we have to be right up close to do it?

I really have to wonder if the Dev team ACTUALLY knows what these abilities do...and how they (don't) work? (Serious Question)

This imaginary Vana'Diel that they have in this "vision"....does NOT EXIST

/facepalm

[Ryx]

Time for some ranger love! Remember, keep the feedback and comments coming, and we'll do our best to address it!

Ask, and you shall recieve.


I want the ranged attack distance correction functionality to be removed.

The distance correction functionality of ranged attacks greatly affects rangers, and based on the opinions of players, we understand that some kind of adjustment is necessary.

With that said, simply removing the distance correction functionality will not solve every problem, so we are working on adjusting the system to be more positive.


I would like the effects of Subtle Blow to take place regardless of distance.


We are currently debating how the effects of Subtle Blow will be implemented. We are also working on adjustments for sweet spots and ranged attacks, so all of this will be decided in a balanced way.

I've got mixed feelings on the fact that you even brought these notions up. The initial thought that comes to mind is: WHERE DO YOU FIND THESE PEOPLE TO "QUOTE" FROM? Thinking about it tho, I realize you're probably just summarizing the worst ideas people have brought up, and being polite to a level that I will probably never manage, do your best to tell them off.

In that sense, allow me to place some emphasis on your behalf: RANGER IS NOT A MELEE!

The distance factor is fine as it is, but if you want to adjust it, make the distances further. Gun users suffer from close range "sweet spots" that often have them caught in more AoEs than their Archery counterparts.



I want the range of ranged attacks to be farther than spells.
This will make it extremely easy to dominate worm type monsters, so we have no plans of extending the range of ranged attacks.

A little bit of clarification on this one (rough numbers):
Ranged WS: 15 Yalms
Player Magic: 20~22 Yalms
Ranged Attacks: 25 Yalms
Monster Magic: 30 Yalms
Average Monster AoE: 10, 15, or 20 Yalms.



I don’t like that TP is consumed even if a WS is not successful because it is out of range.

It is pretty heartbreaking when you misfire, isn’t it? This is a problem that occurs frequently for rangers that keep their distance in battles, so we will look into devising a solution.

If you're going to do this, you might as well make it for all weapon skills, since Ranger is by no means the only job to ever encounter this problem. On the other hand tho, you could increase the distance of ranged WSs to match the TP shots, and let us keep outside of the larger AoEs (like Norn Arrows).



How long will the "ability that increases enmity towards party members positioned between the ranger and his/her target" last?

This ability will last around 3 minutes, and effects will take place for every ranged attack during this time. We do not plan on implementing a long recast time.

Okay, let me be the first to say: ^^! This is GOOD news for us. Or at least it is on the assumption that we're generating less hate in the process for having someone else in front of us.


Either way, Subtle Blow will be applied with abilities, rather than as a constant job trait.

And this is a downer. The way they worded it in the manifesto leads to believe it was going to be a trait. It's not a deal-breaker tho....just don't mess up with the PASSIVE enmity reduction, or the arrows shall rain down upon you in numbers to blot out the sun.

Eagle Eye shot...I know you just said you won't be adding a hate reset to ranger, but is it too much to ask for our 2-hour? It's less about the two-hour and more about the need for a hate reset, but hopefully the devs will come through for us in the overall enmity reduction methods they're supposedly giving us. A controlled ranger should be able to keep themself out of trouble in a difficult fight, a suicidal one...meh, you can't fix stupid.

I do want everyone to stop crying tho "We need a hate reset, and nothing short of one is acceptable!" when they are working on ways to reduce our generation in the first place. Just because it's not the solution YOU want doesn't mean it's automatically doomed to fail. They MIGHT make it potent enough.

And while I'm talking about repeated ideas, let me comment on this one: Ranger's relationship with Haste. STOP! We are NOT a melee DD, stop trying to insist we be treated like one. We're NOT going to be as strong in tearing through the easy mobs, why do you want to be? The easy stuff is irrelevant. We shine better against the hard stuff, where you can't just mindlessly zerg with abandon. We're a strategic job, & always have been. There's more to strategy than who can do the most damage.

The ammo concern is a minor problem, not a major issue. Fix the major issues, and the minor ones should work themselves out. I say minor because you CAN get the ammo you need, you just need to farm the materials yourself, make friends with a couple crafters. They DO exist, you just won't find them on the AH that often. Like with hallowed waters: The AH almost never have them, yet I keep a VERY healthy supply, thanks to having an Alchemist minion who makes them for me.

Blast Arrow IS a melee WS, which makes NO sense to me in that it's an Archery WS, except that you're literally hitting the mob with your bow and THEN shooting it at point blank with an arrow. It's fine to make it a 2-hit WS, where the first hit misses if you're out of range, but to make the entire thing miss when you're trying to proc a blue !! in abyssea? It gets annoying. It's a minor concern tho, especially as we move outside of kiddie-land abyssea.

And that's my two gil on the matter.

P.S: Give us more insanely hard mobs, on behalf of Ranger AND Paladin.

[Washburn]

"Time for some ranger love!"

Wait... What? All i read was:

Player A: "id like to see this happen!"

Dev: "ehh, thats too hard to do"

Player B: "oh! What about this?!"

Dev: "umm, nah, we dont think were gonna do that"

Player C: "ok... Maybe this? Its kinda shitty, but itd help a little"

Dev: "... Really? ... I dont want to have to work on that... In fact, i dont know what im going to do, but ill headline this dev post with "showing love" since we at least replied, even though our answered were non-informative of what we are doing to fix RNG. Peace losers, have fun wasting time and never being a key player, oh and have fun playing red rover with all the monsters in vana diel."

[Ryaan]

please tell the dev team they have greatly saddened every ranger who has played the job recently. this is the single most important ability we need to stay competitive and not die. thieves rarely are in the same party as rangers, even in low man situations, and collaborator isn't enough to keep us going.

black mages recieved enmity douse, which is what we need. it's simply not fair rng get "ask a thief" and blm gets their own JA.


I have leveled both BLM and RNG and RNGs do have an ability to lessen hate they can get. It was added to Camouflage in an update a few years ago. With camouflage up you pretty much pull zero hate with each regular hit. This also does not cause camouflage to ware. Yes so its an ability thats on what a 5 min timer. Emnity Douse is on a 10 min timer. It works wonders from keeping RNGs from getting hate its how my old einherjar shell use to have us RNGs fight odin. We could push out the big numbers without pulling the hate. Don't see where that has changed at all even with the addition of abyssea. The same strats can still work. So BLMs got something finally to help them manage what they pull hate wise. RNGs have had it for a few years now.

[esoR]

camouflage is -25 enmity for attacks, while in effect. it doesn't help you if you pull hate (which you can and will if you are trying to be competitive.) the fact that it wears when it feels like, doesn't help either.

dragoon can put out the same ws dmg numbers, and higher DoT, then super jump to refocus hate to the tanks. but since they are a melee, they don't have to worry about th enemy walking 15-20 yalms away and smacking them in the face.
rng don't have the ability to make the monster turn around and go away. ideally, camo would be like thf's hide, but instead its a stance that doesn't fix the actual issue if you're doing your job right.

example: one weapon skill with camouflage up, in the sweet spot, will pull hate from a pld (who had nearly capped hate before firing.)

[Feliciaa]

Camouflage has a very random duration. Some times it can last 5 shots other times it can last 1 shot. So it's not something a well geared RNG can really rely on and it does not help at all once you hit the enmity cap.

Also, ammo IS a major issue if you have to lvl up 3 different crafts and farm all the materials just to play the job properly. Having the right ammo should be something trivial to playing the job and not something worth noting when you /check a RNG.

Sadly, this still sounds like the same old RNG (depending how the enmity change actually works) with super high cost, really clunky/slow attack method and mediocre damage.

[Washburn]

How about ammo with an added effect of "emnity - 5"?

Thatd allow for your pick of a decent dmg ws with - emnity, or to tp without gaining much emnity then macro in better dmg arrows for weaponskills?

Only drawback is, its be useless on xp mobs...and would only be noticeable on stuff like kirin, shinryu, abysses zone bosses etc.

[esoR]

enmity - arrows goes back to the ammo problem, rare material (most likely) and no one to make it. on top of high costs

[Unctgtg]

Shuffles you never are happy are you :)

[Xellith]

Shuffles you never are happy are you :)

I personally haven't been happy since they broke ranger 6 years ago.

[xbobx]

Well Unct that was some serious stupid shit he was answering questions on.

[noodles355]

Haven't you realised? Dev's only like to answer questions to things they were already working on, or had already looked into and declined, and then make it appear that they got the ideas from the players. They won't respond to something that they hadn't thought about.

[Alkalinehoe]

How about ammo with an added effect of "emnity - 5"?

Thatd allow for your pick of a decent dmg ws with - emnity, or to tp without gaining much emnity then macro in better dmg arrows for weaponskills?

Only drawback is, its be useless on xp mobs...and would only be noticeable on stuff like kirin, shinryu, abysses zone bosses etc.
Enmity -5 would not fix RNG or come close to it. Any RNG worth their salt would be capping hate in the first 1-3 WSs.

[Washburn]

Right, but for new rangers that arent familiar with the amount of damage they can do without pulling hate, it would help. I, have been ranger main since the summer of 2004, im pretty good at knowing when to slow the arrows and when i can let em fly. -emnity arrows would be good on longer fights to drop your hate so you could land large weaponskills without keeping the monster on you for 5 rounds of attacks.

Sadly, jobs like RNG and DRG have always been plagued with spastic "lookie me" kind of players who blast as much damage as possible atthe start of a fight, then die every damn time bc thy didnt know how to manage emnity.

[noodles355]

DRG have always been plagued with spastic "lookie me" kind of players who blast as much damage as possible atthe start of a fight, then die every damn time bc thy didnt know how to manage emnity.Drg? Really? As When a drg goes out and does the whole sekka>drakesbane>drakes>mditate>drakes>Soul jump>drakes>spirit jump>drakes shit, they immidately super jump after for 99% hate shed.

[Swords]

It can still be unbelievably easy to get hate back before Super Jumps cooldown timer is up, but that just further proves the point it would have to be a very significant -enimity adjustment in order to make any real difference for RNG or at the very least some sort of rapid enimity decrease trait.

[esoR]

sekka>drakesbane>drakes>mditate>drakes>Soul jump>drakes>spirit jump>drakes s=etc

just want to clarify for others reading this thread; this is what rng have to do to stay in the fight (dmg wise.)
as a gandiva rng, it looks like so:
sekka >jishnu > jishnu >(light) >barrage> jishnu> (second light?)> meditate > 2 shots > jishnu. by the end of this, the ranger is either dead, or tanking. and really, only in abyssea can this be done, because you wont have the HP outside to survive the whole string. adding a camouflage at the end (or beginning) wont help. not to mention, in 5 minutes, you're repeating the string (if the target is still alive)

[Catsby]

This is really sad and I don't mean it in an insulting or mean spirited way. Visiting these forums and seeing how little interaction there is between CR and fans literally triggers depression. It seems as if the representatives only come to post when they are ordered to and when they do there are hardly ever any follow ups or actual discussions. It's like they have nicely written document they were scheduled and tasked with writing, they post it and move on to whatever is next on the list. Now I've met some of these guys at conferences so I know they aren't just robots and can carry on a conversation about one topic or another so I really can't explain why they are so infrequent or short with the community. The posts in this and the THF thread are just so confusing.

The most recent (alleged) questions by the community really appear to be manufactured since there were no player names behind them. I don't think somebody would be pissed to see their name attached to a question since... well people like having their questions answered and your real name is already hidden behind a screen name. Some of these questions weren't even related to topics that are discussed here.( Blast shot ... really? ). Lastly, many topics have appeared several times over the last few months weren't even addressed like ammo scarcity, which is possibly the result of many other problems but still a topic that's been in or the topic of about a dozen threads.

Honestly, these little stop by to see how the fans are doing posts do more harm than good. When you just post and take off it seems so cold and absolute. If development is really concerned and wants our input then they could benefit from back and forth discussions with us.

[noodles355]

I agree with the above. Quite why they commented on Blast Shot and not ammo I don't know. It's rediculous.

More and more, people are starting to realise that these forums aren't the close link to the development team that they were advertised as, and in fact have almost no impact on the development team's choices whatsoever. The dev team only responds to a topic that they were already working on before hand. If they were working on problem "A" and a player posts about problem "A", they will get a response. But if they post about problem "B", which the dev team hadn't concidered, they will be ignored.

[Alkalinehoe]

Right, but for new rangers that arent familiar with the amount of damage they can do without pulling hate, it would help. I, have been ranger main since the summer of 2004, im pretty good at knowing when to slow the arrows and when i can let em fly. -emnity arrows would be good on longer fights to drop your hate so you could land large weaponskills without keeping the monster on you for 5 rounds of attacks.

Sadly, jobs like RNG and DRG have always been plagued with spastic "lookie me" kind of players who blast as much damage as possible atthe start of a fight, then die every damn time bc thy didnt know how to manage emnity.
Doesn't really matter how long you've been playing RNG, -5 Enmity arrows (Or honestly any amount of -enmity arrows) are not going to slow your hate accumulation when you've already capped hate, and at this point in the game, it's an extremely easy thing to do.

[Hoshi]

I don't think it's fair to say that the dev's aren't listening. They're hearing some of what we're saying. There have been several updates and changes to the game that have been taken from these forums (although not from the ranger section). As far as the Q and A goes it sounds like /drg is still the only viable subjob for ranger and that's a shame.

Also Bayohne, I'd like to address this statement:
We currently have no plans of adding an ability that resets hate for ranger. We suggest forming a party with a job that can control hate, such as thief, to get around this issue.

I play ranger weekly for voidwatch (which is a heck of a lot of fun by the way). I always allow the tanks to establish proper hate before starting to fight the NM. I usually have a thief in my party and the thief uses collaborator on me frequently. Regardless of collaborator I am the first person on the hatelist the moment the NM uses an AoE hate reset or if the tank dies. I also find that my hate by the end of the fight is quite high and I have to hold back on damage as the fight goes longer to avoid moving the monster. While I don't mind being hit or dying, I feel terrible to move the monster because it makes all of my friends' jobs that much more difficult. It also makes them less likely to want a ranger in the alliance for any NM where non ranged DD are involved. Because collaborator only works on one target none of the mages or other DD in my party are able to gain the benefit of enmity reduction from the thief in our party. Collaborator/Accomplice are not sufficient to manage ranger hate and I think a ranger specific hate reset ability would be quite helpful. With that being said we will have to see how much the proposed enmity reductions and sharing hate with people between you and the monster things work, perhaps a hate reset won't be necessary at that time.

[Swords]

Granted it doesn't seem like SE is taking anyone seriously on these forums, but I think what they're doing is a good start in the right direction with RNG. On it's own it doesn't seem like much, but looking at the bigger picture the enmity transfer ability does address 3 big issues, RNG gets hate too easily, traditional tanks can't keep hate, and RNG has difficulty finding a place in a party outside of a situational setting.

The new ability would kill our enmity gain, we'd help the tank keep hate, and if anything RNG could be used and sought after for hate control giving us some sort of niche. Of course this make's RNG seem more like a THF, but most light DD job classes are JA utility types rather than just outright DD's.

[Ryx]

The new ability would kill our enmity gain, we'd help the tank keep hate, and if anything RNG could be used and sought after for hate control giving us some sort of niche.

This is an assumption, that I'd personally like some confirmation on. We're ASSUMING that we generate less hate in the process, by having someone in front of us when the ability is active. The Manifesto description was "increases enmity towards party members positioned between the ranger and his/her target." That says that the "buddy" is generating more hate, but does that necessarily mean that we're generating less in the process? Is it going to be worth standing in front of the mob, giving up the PASSIVE enmity reduction in order to plant more hate on the tank? Until I see confirmation, I'm assuming this is more of an old SATA setup situation, where you have a two tanks on opposite sides of the mob, with the rangers standing behind the tank that doesn't have hate.

Given how easily hate caps these days, even outside of abyssea, we're not going to benefit in a long fight just by increasing someone else's hate, if we're not reducing our own in the process. Remember what Bayohne said:
This ability will last around 3 minutes, and effects will take place for every ranged attack during this time. We do not plan on implementing a long recast time.

Which means this isn't a carbon copy of trick attack for ranger. Even if we do generate less hate because of this ability, we will still be generating some. To make it place ALL hate on the "buddy" for 3 mins would be farrr too overpowering, especially in a zerg. Realistically, it'll probably be something more like a 25% transfer. I'd hope for more, but I don't like to set myself up for disappointment. We'd be generating 3/4ths of our normal hate per shot (can we get confirmation as to whether or not this effect will apply to weapon skills? It'll be worthless if it doesn't >_>), while the person in front of us gains the missing quarter.

I also have to wonder, if you have multiple people standing in front of you, if it increases the hate for all of them, if it's an even distribution, etc.

This ability will be one to watch with interest, I'm curious about it, but I'm not going to place faith in it until I see it in action.

[Nynja]

So job manifesto revision has no mention of Dead Aim not working on WS despite there having been multiple bug reports submitted and had been checked by admins in regards to it....NIIIIIIIIIIIIICEEEEEEEe

[Helel]

Dead Aim works perfectly fine with Heavy Shot, that's for sure. I have annihilator so I'm not sure if you're referring to jishnu's?

Anyway, the real problem with ranger is the delay in between ranged attacks (the delay between shots, not the actual shooting). Remove that and we'll be all set. Thanks!

Quick Edit: Perhaps your critical damage+ is already capped? It's quite easy to cap it inside abyssea with just RR and some critical damage gear (RR + DA is +70% out of a possible +100%).

[esoR]

Dead Aim works perfectly fine with Heavy Shot, that's for sure. I have annihilator so I'm not sure if you're referring to jishnu's?

Anyway, the real problem with ranger is the delay in between ranged attacks (the delay between shots, not the actual shooting). Remove that and we'll be all set. Thanks!

Quick Edit: Perhaps your critical damage+ is already capped? It's quite easy to cap it inside abyssea with just RR and some critical damage gear (RR + DA is +70% out of a possible +100%).

atleast for jishnu's and arching arrow, its plain to see that dead aim dosen't effect ws. day 1 when we got dead aim, did some ws, and ther was no difference in the dmg before. (40% crit dmg should show a signifigant boost in dmg) try a ws in abyssea without RR/SS then try it with. thats the dmg increase dead aim should give, and it doesnt. or someone can show you the formula and expected dmg vs actual.

[Atomic_Skull]

RNG needs auto attack for ranged attacks.

The way I see it working is that when you initiate ranged auto attack, ranged attacks will repeat automaticly until you move. While moving it just gets interrupted as it does now, until you stop moving again at which time it starts repeating again. Simply replacing ranged attacks with ranged auto attacks could cause problems in certain situations so a separate macro command could be implemented for ranged auto attack on/off. Alternatively, ranged auto attack could be designed to only work while engaged with a target (you'd still want a separate macro command for ranged auto attack on however because otherwise it could cause problems for jobs that use status bolts)

[noodles355]

Dead aim doesn't work on heavy shot

[Atomic_Skull]

There's no ammo on the AH because RNG is a dead job. Fix RNG and the ammo shortage will correct itself.

[Xellith]

RNG isnt a dead job by any means. I sometimes go as a naked RNG in tahronghi or another area to widescan the NM location!

[Glamdring]

Time for some ranger love! Remember, keep the feedback and comments coming, and we'll do our best to address it!


The distance correction functionality of ranged attacks greatly affects rangers, and based on the opinions of players, we understand that some kind of adjustment is necessary.

With that said, simply removing the distance correction functionality will not solve every problem, so we are working on adjusting the system to be more positive.

Honestly, even tho' I'm sure you don't want to "ape" other games I would sugest a "crosshair" icon when you've engaged an enemy (attacked) that continually displays. have it change colors to indicate that you are in the "sweet spot" (if you insist on maintaining this system). considerring the way hate fluctuates (under the current unbalanced play system) this will also help when you've found the sweet spot only to lose placement because player X has decided to pull hate for their DPS bragging rights and the mob moves out of said sweet-spot.

[Glamdring]

RNG isnt a dead job by any means. I sometimes go as a naked RNG in tahronghi or another area to widescan the NM location!

I'll see your naked ranger ad raise you my naked beast with a pet that solos the mob without my even staying in damage range

[Feliciaa]

Posting actual feedback today! :)

Ranger Improvements:

We currently have no plans of adding an ability that resets hate for ranger. We suggest forming a party with a job that can control hate, such as thief, to get around this issue.
***If this is the direction the design team wants to go please have them consider giving Camouflage a Static duration. Even a 1min duration would be MUCH better then the random duration it currently has.

I would like Rapid Shot to be activated every time.

This will be very difficult, since Snapshot is a trait that can be enhanced to further reduces the time in between ranged attacks, and these two would become very similar.
***A 100% chance to Rapid shot would be way too strong. However, Rapid Shot atm only has a 5-10% chance to even proc. Since it seems there are no plans to add snapshot to haste,haste samba, or march songs consider adding a plus Rapid Shot to the new Subtle Blow JA (maybe +10-15%). This way RNG can compete a little better vs. high haste situations but still has a timer to balance out the extra damage.

Eagle Eye Shot has the advantage of having high accuracy, but we are looking into adding additional benefits. We think it will be best if we can add some kind of benefits other than simply yielding high damage.
***Consider having Eagle Eye Shot add an Enmity Suppression for the next 30 seconds. A RNG could then go all out with what they have but they are not gaining nor losing Enmity.

Lastly, I know it's not mentioned in the Manifesto, but there really is a major ammo issue for both RNG and COR as mentioned a few times on both forums. The design team should look into adding more ways to obtain ammo whether it's buying the ammo from a NPC or adding the synthesis materials to a NPC.

[noodles355]

Lastly, I know it's not mentioned in the Manifesto, but there really is a major ammo issue for both RNG and COR as mentioned a few times on both forums.The fact they replied to some random point on Blast Shot but ignored the whole ammo issue is completely uunacceptable.

[Leonlionheart]

How to fix RNG forever:

Make Haste, March, and Hasso affect the delay of ranged attacks, along with capping at 80% along with EVERY OTHER PHYSICAL DAMAGE DEALER?

How is this unbalanced, since everyone else has it?

At least give BRD a song that reduces the delay of ranged attacks... or SCH a spell that does so...

[Feliciaa]

Haste, march, and hasso should just have snap shot added to them. Rng is not the super dd it was pre ranged attack nerf so no idea why they can't use them.

[Leonlionheart]

Or, similar to Hasso's STR increase works, increase the potency of Velocity Shot's snap shot per x amount of levels.

45: 10%
55: 12%
65: 14%
75: 16%
85: 18%
95: 20%

There. I fixed it for you SE.

[Lokithor]

My biggest gripe about ranger (other than enmity issues) is barrage and sharpshot. Fix barrage so that each shot is calculated independently and not cause subsequent shots to miss if one in the sequence misses. The way it works now, gear that adds additional shots to barrage is next to useless because of the diminishing probability that the extra hits will even have a change to hit.

Either that or make sharpshot GUARANTEE hits while active. If you load up on accuracy, I don't think sharpshot actually does anything at all because it can't push through the accuracy cap.

Better yet, do both.

[esoR]

Fix barrage so that each shot is calculated independently and not cause subsequent shots to miss if one in the sequence misses.


i believe this was changed last patch.


Accuracy calculations for Barrage will be eased in proportion to the maximum number of shots.

[Lokithor]

Screw "eased in proportion to the maximum number of shots". They need to change barrage so that each shot is 100% independent of the shot before. This bull shit about missing all the rest of the shots as soon as one misses has got to go.

Face it, Ranger is a dead job. You're not going to get life back into it through little tweaks here and there. It needs some major adjustments.

[noodles355]

Not sure how it can be eased in proportion to the max number of shots. Are they going to raise the acc cap for subsequent shots or something? Because just adding an accuracy boost won't do shit. 95% Acc is 95% Acc and for 8 hits in a row that's still capping at 66% chance to land them.

[esoR]

i'm sure there were actual notes somewhere as to how the system was changed, that's all i could locate in the recent changes though.

[Saelae]

It's certainly not all shots are independent now, I've still missed barrages completely. I think they just do 1 accuracy check every couple shots, instead of every shot. (i.e. first check passes, shots 1-2'ish land, next check 3-4, ect.)

[Catsby]

That seems more likely. I wish they would just make it one shot with damage x (level of barrage)

[Fyreus]

Can someone tell this guy that dominating worms is meaningless?

[noodles355]

To be fair, it is, concidering most NM worms have Draw-In anyway, and lol @ soloing worms for exp.

[Mirabelle]

Can someone tell this guy that dominating worms is meaningless?

This, so much.

There is no place in Vanadiel where being a superior worm killer gives you an unacceptable advantage. They are worthless to farm (yay, flint stones), they give crap xp compared to other opportunities, and any of the important NM's have draw-in.

BLM's can walk around one -shotting most everything they see and RNG's being able to plink-plink worms is a big concern.

[esoR]

unless there was a joke somewhere, there was probably a mistranslation of concern about wyrms, not worms.

[noodles355]

Wyrms can move to you if you get hate. Worms can't. Hence SE's argument.