[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM [Archive] - Page 2

Supersun

08-16-2011, 07:57 PM

The idea of hitting more things with more swords being the direction the job should go because of what the job was in single-player games a decade ago, however, confounds me.

Well, let me ask this. What makes a Final Fantasy, a Final Fantasy?

It's not simply just sticking on the Final Fantasy name on a game. I mean there's a few games out there that brandish the name Final Fantasy yet a lot of people probably wouldn't consider them one.

A lot of what makes a game part of the Final Fantasy series is the shared expectations behind the genre, some basic commonality of the lore itself that people tend to expect in a Final Fantasy game.

Red Mage's not being proficient with the sword is probably the biggest breech of lore in XI from what's expected of the Final Fantasy series.

Now, the importance of lore varies from person to person and what each person considers an unforgivable discrepancy is different, but just because you don't consider it important doesn't mean plenty of other people do.

People bring up that Red Mage wasn't very good at melee in previous titles, but that's not an entirely accurate statement. Sure, specialized DD jobs like Mnk and War would outperform Rdm, but Rdm actually did better then other light DD jobs like Thf and *gasp* Blu.

Now I'm not saying that just because Rdm could do more then a Blu in previous FF titles that they should do more now. XI's version of the Blue Mage added a melee twist to it's backstory where it's more fitting for its stronger prowess, but this is a case of adding to the history of a job as opposed to taking away from it.

Red Mage on the other hand has only lost its history as time has progressed in this game. If you look carefully at what Red Mage had at launch and the appearance of its AF there are very strong hints that tie it into a Magical Musketeer. The Rapier and dagger specialty with the marksmanship skill along with the more formal looking garb with items named Fencer and Duelist all backed this idea of a Musketeer themed job.

This was a unique twist to the XI Red Mage. All previous Final Fantasys set as groundwork was above average white magic, above average black magic, above average melee...well, and Fast Cast. Red Mage certainly didn't obtain the rapier as the iconic Red Mage sword from other Final Fantasys and Sorcerer/Mystic Knight was the mystic swordsman.

When Red Mage was revamped though it lost all the XI specific backlore that made it special. Convert and Refresh are instead just thrown at the job with no real rhyme or reason. Nearly every other job you could ask the SE developers to map within the lore why specific jobs have specific updates and they could give you a clear and concise answer, but if you asked why Red Mage has convert and refresh I'd be surprised if they could give you a decent answer.

This is really odd considering that even now every other job is delegated buffs and abilities because they fit withing the theme of the job. I mean how many times have you read those job manifesto posts and their response is that an idea is better suited for another job or they don't want the job in response to compete with the specialist.

The problem is nearly every other job is more fitting for just about any other type of proposed idea because Red Mage has no thematic backing to claim anything as its own. The only thing that Red Mage can even attempt to claim is enfeebling, but even then SE is too scared to actually release powerful enfeebling spells that make a noticeable difference compared to what other jobs can contribute.

While they say that Enhancing is our role as well, frankly, I'm afraid that we'll only be left with the scraps after Brd, Cor, Smn, Whm, and Cors are done claiming what should be theirs and all we'll be left with are single target spells that we are expected to keep on the party of already pre-existing spells that other jobs already have more potent or AoE versions of.

I mean for crying out even Bard is getting delegated the idea of a Magic Defense down song before Red Mage.

This is ultimately the problem. You may say you are optimistic of SE's vision of the future, but let's actually look at the past. Red Mages have been clamoring for ANY sort of change over the last 5+ years and have received virtually nothing. If we continue to receive the hand me down of spells that other specialized classes have outgrown, Red Mage will be in a sad spot when content leaves abyssea.

Everything will be fine and dandy if they follow through with their manifesto post and revolutionize the job with new enfeebling and enhancing spells. You might debate whether that is Red Mage or not, but at least it will have its own lore and things to claim its own. SE's track record has shown that their bark is bigger then their bite and more often then not they under balance jobs as opposed to overbalance them. I'm going to remain skeptical of anything they say until I can see the results with my own eyes.

I'll be realistic, the only way I can see SE fulfilling their demi-god creating manifesto post for Red Mage is if they give us Haste II exclusively.

If they do that I'll be hanging up my feathered hat for good. I refuse to be put through ToA all over again.

Duelle

08-16-2011, 09:31 PM

Red Mage on the other hand has only lost its history as time has progressed in this game. If you look carefully at what Red Mage had at launch and the appearance of its AF there are very strong hints that tie it into a Magical Musketeer. The Rapier and dagger specialty with the marksmanship skill along with the more formal looking garb with items named Fencer and Duelist all backed this idea of a Musketeer themed job.

This was a unique twist to the XI Red Mage. All previous Final Fantasys set as groundwork was above average white magic, above average black magic, above average melee...well, and Fast Cast. Red Mage certainly didn't obtain the rapier as the iconic Red Mage sword from other Final Fantasys and Sorcerer/Mystic Knight was the mystic swordsman.The class would have been rather plain if it had nothing more than just auto attacks with some white and black magic. Console FFs didn't require actual synergy between different aspects of each class because the way combat was set up didn't permit for said synergy and was trivial given the way console FFs' battle systems are set up.

Looking at RDM, its versatility actually hurt the job more because, again, the different aspects of the class were not working in synergy with one another. Rather than design the class in a way that these different trades work together to help the RDM earn their spot, the devs gave us a job that for all intents and purposes was as close to a carbon copy to the console RDM as you can get from a design perspective...with shortcomings that were trivial in console games but make or break your game in an MMO.

When Red Mage was revamped though it lost all the XI specific backlore that made it special. Convert and Refresh are instead just thrown at the job with no real rhyme or reason. Nearly every other job you could ask the SE developers to map within the lore why specific jobs have specific updates and they could give you a clear and concise answer, but if you asked why Red Mage has convert and refresh I'd be surprised if they could give you a decent answer.If you want to talk about the lore, I can tell you this: our job has next to nothing as far as XI is concerned. Someone tried to bring up Rainemard in the melee thread, but the AF story has next to nothing about RDM itself, and instead talks about a guy named Rainemard who happened to be a RDM, was an excellent swordsman and got quartered and stuffed in a box for sticking his nose where it didn't belong. That's not much to go by, really.

This is really odd considering that even now every other job is delegated buffs and abilities because they fit withing the theme of the job. I mean how many times have you read those job manifesto posts and their response is that an idea is better suited for another job or they don't want the job in response to compete with the specialist.The main issue here is that as is so clear, we are not unanimous on what the theme of RDM is.

While they say that Enhancing is our role as well, frankly, I'm afraid that we'll only be left with the scraps after Brd, Cor, Smn, Whm, and Cors are done claiming what should be theirs and all we'll be left with are single target spells that we are expected to keep on the party of already pre-existing spells that other jobs already have more potent or AoE versions of.This is just another example of concept and practice clashing. We wouldn't have this problem if the job was called something else and was built around a different archetype.

cidbahamut

08-16-2011, 10:34 PM

Curious how I'd destroy RDM without taking away from it.

But as you can see, Spanky, stuff like that.

Well here's how I see it, correct me when I steer off course.

You want Red Mage to be asked to jump to the front lines for content beyond trivial stuff like exp mobs, right?

To do this Red Mage has to offer something from the front line. At the moment all it has to offer is inferior damage.

For meleeing on Red Mage to be viable in the metagame it has to bring something to the table and there are only two things I could see it bringing: Damage or some sort of utility.

Bringing damage to the table doesn't make sense as it would have to be equal to or better than a dedicated DD class. This is because the usefulness of DDing is dwarfed by the usefulness of having a competent mage in the backlines. DDs are a dime a dozen and mages bring more to the table right from the start, so we have our current situation in which Red Mage's best contribution is to be a mage for the party.

The other route would be to add some sort of utility that can only be applied from the front lines. This means we would have to muscle in on Dancer's turf and outdo them as well. Dancer's a cool class, don't get me wrong, but there isn't an overwhelming demand for their services. If we're going to fill their role, our front line services need to eclipse the monstrous utility that we can already offer from the back line.

Both of these scenarios are enough to make even the most brain dead game designer sit up and go "hey, this seems a little off, maybe we shouldn't do that".

As long as we're a powerhouse of a mage, we're going to be called on to head to the back line because that's where we can be most useful to a party. The only way to change that is to either take away from our mage side or add such amazing front line functionality that we become Dancer 2.0 premium edition, both of which strike me as radically altering the class to the point where it is no longer the class I have been enjoying for years.

The conclusion I keep coming back to is that you wish to play Red Mage as something it is not and wish to alter it until it meets that vision and is no longer the Red Mage I know and love. That is why I give you grief, because your vision threatens my favorite job. Surely you can understand that.

Rayik

08-17-2011, 02:30 AM

I made one post with a very specific purpose. Separating the archetype in other media from the character class in this game. If other people like the name, like the message, or just plain like me, that's cool with me. I'm glad people like the ways in which I express ideas.

The SpankWustler analogy has nothing to do with "ruffling feathers" or antagonism. It has to do with pointing out a very real fallacy in the way people perceive the Red Mage job. If the job was named something completely different, but had the exact same traits, gear, and spells, a good chunk of this argument would no longer exist.

I disagree. Regardless of whatever the job is called, I came to the job because it was advertised to me, in-game, as a "magic swordsman." I ran around East and West Ronfaure hacking up bunnies and beetles, and casting spells. If it were identical to the other mage jobs, it would've been a staff or club, not a sword.

Yes, I was initially interested because of the FF lore of previous entries RDM's, and when I first took the job out of my Mog House I was pleased. Hacking and slashing, casting and enfeebling, I was having a blast. But, eventually I hit level 51 and those happy fun elemental staves reared their head, and if you were caught wielding a sword in a party you caught hell about it.

BRB, gotta go rub woad and warpaint all over me, so I can run around screaming "magic swordsman!"

Rayik

08-17-2011, 03:25 AM

cidbahamut

08-17-2011, 03:57 AM

I advocate melee RDM because it is a living, existing facet of this HYBRID job. Currently, a facet of the job is not working, so I am here voicing my opinion.

I love our mage-side. I am in no way calling for any kind of nerf to our magic, nor am I in any way trying to say that we should be melee DD's 24/7. RDM is a versatile hybrid job; not a pure mage, not a pure DD, a hybrid. One thing most of us can agree on, is that one part does not work in a group setting. Hence, the cries of the pro-melee side for a fix, since our magic is already fairly group-friendly.

I'm think I'm ok with this so far. Magic side's doing ok, melee side not so much.

Being a Pure-mage RDM is completely ignoring much of the job's versatility and the fact that it is a hybrid, and not a pure mage. If you're content to play this way, you're the one with the screwed up "vision" of the job. Play what you like, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're some kind of expert if you can't acknowledge one of the major parts of the job. Melee is there, it's in the game, it's our lore, our AF/Relic/Mythic/Empyrean/Magian weapons, it's right in front of our faces, and it doesn't work as advertised. Stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala cant hear you" all you want, but it's there. If you choose not to acknowledge a sizable facet of the job, you can in no way say your "vision" of the job is correct.

This is where I start to take issue. Melee is not and never has been a "sizable facet" of the job. Red Mage has be capable of engaging enemies, but that's not quite the same. Red Mage's claim on melee is limited to outdated and broken enspells, composure, and the names their AF sets bear. Red Mage in FFXI has never had the tools to put itself on the front line and simultaneously make the claim that it is providing more there than it would in the back. No amount of lore can change the unpleasant realities of the game mechanics, design, and the metagame that inevitably arose from them.

My vision of the job isn't any more right or wrong than your own, it's simply based in the reality of the here and now rather than the fuzzy ideals of "what Red Mage should have been"; And much is it may surprise you, I do maintain a melee build, it's just that I've found I can always do a lot more in just about every situation if I'm geared strictly for maging it up. It's not that I don't care about melee, I've simply come to terms with the limitations it has and have accepted that the mage side overwhelms it so completely that it may as well not be there. Red Mage's melee capabilities are vestigial at best.

Just because you happen to enjoy one side of it, doesn't make the rest of us wrong for enjoying the other. That's why I advocate fixing melee without hurting the magic.

I don't want "Overpowered", I just want "functional."

I just don't see how they can be made "functional" to the satisfaction of the Red Mage community without crossing the line in "overpowered". For the most part Red Mage melee is already "functional", it just has no place in the metagame because it's so inconsequential when stacked up against what Red Mage can do in full mage mode.

How would you change Red Mage so that it would be viable on the front lines without being required? Because I can't think of any way to pull it off that doesn't result in serious balance issues or fundamentally changing the job.

Rayik

08-17-2011, 04:35 AM

Short answer? Fix the EX WS's. Not a perfect answer, but a start. I'm not asking for a complete tear down and rebuild of the job, and yes, melee is a "sizable facet" when the vast majority of job-exclusive gear and some of the very few JA's the job gets are melee-centric. It may not be a sizable facet to your personal play style, but it's there in the game engine. Just because people choose not to use it, doesn't it make it suddenly not exist.

Ketaru

08-17-2011, 04:38 AM

You guys do realize that a good number of posters here are just BG trolls right? Their actually trying to stir up sh!t to create lolz discussions over on their board.

You do realize this doesn't add to the discussion at all, right?

cidbahamut

08-17-2011, 04:57 AM

Greatguardian

08-17-2011, 04:58 AM

Quetzacoatl

08-17-2011, 05:09 AM

Ketaru

08-17-2011, 05:13 AM

You could say the same thing about WHM's AF/Relic and we have no problem with them meleeing. loldoublestandards

Actually, people do.

Greatguardian

08-17-2011, 05:34 AM

You could say the same thing about WHM's AF/Relic and we have no problem with them meleeing. loldoublestandards

WHM's JSE has a ton of Haste, and comprises some of its best TP pieces. People also know damn well that White Mage doesn't melee on anything more than trash mobs, same as Red Mage can now. That's not the point though. I'm replying very specifically to Rayik's claim that the "Vast Majority of RDM JSE is melee-based". Incoming edit with quote.

Edit:

melee is a "sizable facet" when the vast majority of job-exclusive gear and some of the very few JA's the job gets are melee-centric.

Supersun

08-17-2011, 05:37 AM

What "vast majority" of RDM JSE is melee-centric? AF1 is almost exclusively mage stats, AF2 is exclusively mage stats, AF3 is exclusively mage stats, Wise gear is almost exclusively mage stats. Those are the only 4 RDM-only armor sets in the game, and they all have Mage-centric stats (keeping in mind Parrying and Shield skill on AF1, and like 5-10 total accuracy on full wise/chasuble, lulz).

I don't see ANY RDM Job-Specific armor that's designed for melee, anywhere. Care to point some out for me?

War AF has enmity!

Why aren't they tanking!

Besides there are more melee related pieces then you think.

AF 1 has the warlock gloves which when upgraded to +1 is one of the best CDC hands for Rdm.

AF Legs have enhancing magic which benefits melee a great deal. An enhancing set is almost a requirement for Rdm melee. Not as much for magery.

Relic hands are the same as above.

Relic Feet are an awesome Ele WS piece.

Same with Emp hat and legs.

and every piece of wise has as much accuracy as it does M.Acc (though the numbers are so low that it's still lol wise)

Greatguardian

08-17-2011, 05:41 AM

Read one post up =/.

Barspells and Phalanx are also Enhancing-dependent, as is Stoneskin (lol). Don't kid yourself into thinking a Magic Skill boost is somehow a "Melee-centric" trait. There's a difference between something being obviously designed for melee, and something that just so happens to boost a melee trait while being designed for magic.

cidbahamut

08-17-2011, 05:47 AM

War AF has enmity!

Why aren't they tanking!

WAR AF has +INT!

Why aren't they nuking?

AF Legs have enhancing magic which benefits melee a great deal. An enhancing set is almost a requirement for Rdm melee. Not as much for magery.

Wow...really? You don't make use of an enhancing set except for enspells? Are you for real?

Relic hands are the same as above.

Yeah, and they were half decent INT hands back at 75 if you were too cheap to buy errant cuffs. Also: MDT set. They're multi-purpose, so no you don't get to point at them and say "oh it's clearly designed to let us melee".

Relic Feet are an awesome Ele WS piece.

Relic feet are an awesome nuke piece.

Same with Emp hat and legs.

Right, except they're better as magical pieces seeing as how they've got M.ACC tacked on, refresh effect enhancement, and enfeeble casting time reduction. Totally designed for melee.

and every piece of wise has as much accuracy as it does M.Acc (though the numbers are so low that it's still lol wise)
If you count ranged accuracy (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Wise_Cap), sure. I guess we're magical archers now too.

Ketaru

08-17-2011, 05:55 AM

I'd be asking for current buffs (and cures, for that matter) to affect pets, with scaling changes if needed. Then again, I'm of the opinion the whole pet:stat thing on gear was just aimed to create a timesink for pet jobs.

The dev team is so convinced that pet jobs are just a stone throw away from being overpowered that they would refuse to do anything that will make them competitive with more conventional jobs.

It doesn't help that, when other players express their opinions about them, it's always in terms of inconvenience to other players. Why, over on the main forum, there is a new thread about how NMs should rage, which is all well and good. But it doesn't take long for somebody to chime in on how SMNs that exploit atma PDT are annoying and take too long to kill their stuff.

The dialogue behind BST especially has always been framed with a kind of Us vs Them edge to it: BSTs take up party camps. BSTs don't kill their pets and screw up mob EXP. BSTs hold NMs for way too long. Blah. Blah. Blah. How on earth are we going to integrate them into the endgame scene to be cooperative with other players?

Fine, I can see where they are coming from. So let's indirectly update these jobs so that they can receive these buffs, but only through cooperation with another person. And what better job to do that the Enhancing specialist, RDM, who ought to receive niche buffs not available to any other mage?

The question I'm wondering is how would any of you feel about that if the update announcement came and this was the main bullet point?

"- Red Mage will be receiving exciting new spells designed to augment the effectiveness of another player's pets."

Economizer

08-17-2011, 06:00 AM

You could say the same thing about WHM's AF/Relic and we have no problem with them meleeing. loldoublestandards

Actually, White Mage has the Healer's Mitts (+1). Definitely melee oriented unless someone thinks +15 Healing Magic skill does something functional.

Although if that's acceptable, then most of the Red Mage Artifact/Relic has stats that would work well for Dagger. The problem with this is a good portion of the Red Mage melee people doesn't accept melee boosts unless it comes from a Sword.

cidbahamut

08-17-2011, 06:07 AM

The question I'm wondering is how would any of you feel about that if the update announcement came and this was the main bullet point?

"- Red Mage will be receiving exciting new spells designed to augment the effectiveness of another player's pets."

I think my initial reaction would be "oh crap, now I have to redo my macro palettes again", followed shortly by "oh crap, now I have to switch off the 'ignore pet' option". I don't like pets getting in the way when I'm trying to select stuff with the cursor, so that's a mark against them right from the start, and then there's no good way to target them aside from tabbing around on-screen since they don't get to show up on the side bar with the rest of the party. There's a lot of core design working against incorporating pets into the party even before we start addressing how this would affect Red Mage specifically.

If they were going to allow us to buff up pets, I'd want it to be something I could cast on the Beastmaster and just have it channel out from him to the pet. That would be ideal.

Beyond that it seems like something that would be overly niche. I don't think I'd turn it down if given something like that, but I wouldn't start hunting down pet jobs just to use it either.

Necromage

08-17-2011, 06:23 AM

Ok maybe this is off topic; but back on the subject of spells (just have an idea that would maybe be nice?).

Have like a reverse stun enhancing spell for rdm. Instead of stunning the monster, rdm has a spell that casts almost instantly, and creates say like a 90% damage reduction for the next hit the person was going to take. Recast similar to stun as well.

Another spell that was mentioned somewhere was a spell like Regen, but made like a helix kinda so it only has like 5-10 tics, but cures for 100 - 200 hp a tic?

I dunno just throwing stuff out there.

SpankWustler

08-17-2011, 06:30 AM

The question I'm wondering is how would any of you feel about that if the update announcement came and this was the main bullet point?

"- Red Mage will be receiving exciting new spells designed to augment the effectiveness of another player's pets."

I know this isn't what you mean, but lowering a monster's defense and evasion through enfeebling spells is already pretty awesome for a Beast Master's pets. Well, until the day Beast Masters develop the animal husbandry skills required to make rabbits and ladybugs eat pizza.

So, stronger enfeebling magic of that sort would benefit pets by virtue of actually affecting them. If things had gone in a different direction long ago and crippling the monster was as beneficial as enhancing other players, I think pet jobs would be in a much better place right now.

Things are what things are, though, and I can't imagine that even happening for anybody to react to it. The only thing I can say for sure is that there would be RAGE if the spells had to be cast on the pets themselves an not the players controlling them.

I just skimmed the last couple of pages, but I saw the word "Wise" scroll past a few times. I have no idea why anyone would see any part of that set as an indication of anything. The only idea to be gotten from that junk is that there was a dark time when some folks at SE had no idea how to make a piece of equipment.

Supersun

08-17-2011, 07:23 AM

Read one post up =/.

To be fair, that post didn't exist yet when I started writing mine.

Wow...really? You don't make use of an enhancing set except for enspells? Are you for real?

I'd appreciate not being straw manned.

cidbahamut

08-17-2011, 07:43 AM

Neisan_Quetz

08-17-2011, 08:44 AM

There is no job in FFXI that has equal magic/melee aspects, they all have drawbacks in one way or another.

Seriha

08-17-2011, 08:57 AM

Which is why I tend to advocate RDM's martial buffs come through self-cast spells with an MP cost prohibitive enough to leave them incapable of main healing or nuking like a BLM. An emergency cure and MB here and there, yes, but the fear the job would be the only one people would ever level then is rather unfounded, as being limited to sword and dagger is own kind of restriction.

SpankWustler

08-17-2011, 09:21 AM

There is no job in FFXI that has equal magic/melee aspects, they all have drawbacks in one way or another.

To expand on this...

Even if there were, given how casting stops auto-attacking cold, I don't see it doing very well. There's a reason beyond MP that Dark Knights don't bother casting most of the time, and a degree of delay reduction that makes even physical Blue Magic eschew more damage than it would produce. FFXI's battle system isn't designed to be friendly towards casting while engaged, and that's unlikely to change.

Oddly enough, this ties into what Seriha just said. The dude's right that adding a high MP cost, very long duration buff would be the best (reasonable) boon Red Mage melee could get. The spell would have to be so extreme to bring the job up to 50/50 or make it's melee contribution valuable or whatever standard the "hit things with things" camp holds, though, I can't imagine what it could be much less that such a spell would actually be added.

Quetzacoatl

08-17-2011, 09:48 AM

There is no job in FFXI that has equal magic/melee aspects, they all have drawbacks in one way or another.

BLU with an Almace says hi? Considering they're only geared for Frontline and not anything else.

Supersun

08-17-2011, 09:49 AM

You made it pretty clear you thought an enhancing set did more for melee than for mage work. I'd say it's about even, so saying enhancing skill gear is there specifically to help your melee capabilities is kind of silly.

Except that it helps melee more?

If you are backlining all your enhancing set is going to help you with is Phalanx, Barspells, and Gain-Spells. It's certainly nice to be able to bump up your spells power up a bit, but if you were to leave your enhancing set in your MH no one's going to really care.

Forgetting your enhancing set when meleeing as Rdm on the other hand is about as bad as a DD forgetting his WS set. You are going to lose 10% to 20% dps from the lack of potency on those enspells and more importantly accuracy.

and besides... you said

Wow...really? You don't make use of an enhancing set except for enspells? Are you for real?

I didn't say anything even remotely close to that. All I said is that enhancing magic does more for melee then magic, but apparently everyone who talks about Rdm melee is automatically a gimp noob that melees in errant and casts in DD gear.

You say that SE should work on a jobs strengths, but isn't Rdm's strength being a well rounded generalist able to fill any hole necessary with a minor niche in enfeebling?

Doesn't it make sense that we rally for some form of a melee buff to enhance our weakness to amplify our greatest strength of being a generalist?

Of course at the same time it's not that any of these things are mutually exclusive. Enhancing both Red Mage's melee and enhancing their enfeebling isn't going to create some overpowered job.

The problem is that you aren't actually listening to what we say. If you are still saying stuff like...
For meleeing on Red Mage to be viable in the metagame then either you are taking Duelle's opinion to reflect that of us all or you just aren't paying attention.

Really, the greatest danger to Red Mage isn't a melee buff or a mage buff. It's people that say that Red Mage is fine and doesn't need anything. Abyssea has shown us what Red Mage looks like if the game continues on its power curve (albeit abyssea is slightly exaggerated vision). If people continue to preach that Red Mage will be fine other jobs are going to continue zooming past us on the way to 99 until Red Mage becomes even more lulworthy then when the job was first released.

I can't think of any other job that has received less than Red Mage with the break of the level cap so far. Rdm's nuking has improved, has gain spells, and refresh II. If this is only what's in store for us for the rest of the game then I think many people will be surprised at what Red Mage will be delegated to at 99.

-----
Edit:

I would like “Ni” and “San” upgrades added to enfeebling ninjutsu.
If we are to add upgrades to ninjutsu, we would like them to be learned as merit points similar to red mage, so we will look into this during our adjustment of merit points.

:(

Ketaru

08-17-2011, 01:00 PM

If things had gone in a different direction long ago and crippling the monster was as beneficial as enhancing other players, I think pet jobs would be in a much better place right now.

Things are what things are, though, and I can't imagine that even happening for anybody to react to it.

"Things are what things are, though" is pretty recurring theme of this thread, and while it is arguably appropriate to use here for RDM, it is that kind of mindset that I think got my other job into such a mess in the first place.

For years and years, BSTs told themselves that the job is fine so long as it can solo things. And looking at some of the comments over on that forum:

If you are adding onto what a bst can bring to a party then this is fine with me.
BUT if you are considering taking away a bst's ability to solo, I am against this new direction. And the majority of the bst community will be as well.

It looks like some of them are still perfectly happy with being the job that mindlessly throws NPCs at mobs, even as the rest of the playerbase can see the gaping holes and shortcomings of it. It got a pretty big boost with the introduction of Abyssea, but in the end, the boost only makes it so even the most undergeared player can do modest damage.

Our pets don't receive buffs from other players aside from COR (which has all kinds of limitations on its own that spellcasters don't have). And we have a lot of potential flexibility that goes wasted by an ability system that takes all the worst points of PUP and SMN with none of the advantages. It has no interactivity with other jobs aside from being a low maintenance damage dealer. But at least we can solo Cerberus in exchange for a Fort Knox worth of fodder and food. And that's all that matters, right?!

Everything some of you have said about how the spells I would like need to be casted on the master itself and it'll work on the pet through that. But unfortunately, as you said, it's unlikely we'll ever see such an update. And the latest Dev Q & A in that forum just makes me all the more disappointed by how mum they stay on the subject of just how they want to actually want to integrate the job into the group setting.

All well, at least my idea for new RDM spells has been put out there. I really think that, coupled with competent updates to the target jobs themselves, they could be potential game changers as well as add a type of support to the game that is under-served and unexplored.

Seriha

08-17-2011, 01:52 PM

While I noted earlier I'm okay with pet buffs, one job looking for fixes through another is probably not the best way to go about it. As is, settling for something can be very dangerous, a recipe for stagnation in a genre where classes should always be undergoing steady growth to remain fresh and useful with bug fixes on top. Pet jobs also need to be wary of the line of control in their pet, its power, and how close one person could potentially be to 2 party members, one disposable with little penalty to the master (In FFXI's case, waiting on a timer and/or some gil). I can't say I sympathize with BSTs stuck in the Charm days. Charm is arguably one of the most broken abilities in the game. Not only does it have the potential to disable a monster, but you can make that monster turn around and beat on crap for you. Prior to the new jugs, BST mains were also cranky about how anyone could sub BST and be just as good, if not better than them... RDM being one of the notorious examples cited since mischarms could be slept/bound while primary targets can be enfeebled down to further the longevity of your pet. And if a camp had no local mobs for the BST to charm? Well, there goes their desirability in a group. I know some still wanna froth over the MPK patch and loss of zookeeping, but even without despawning, mobs slowly pathing back at a snail's pace was always pretty stupid, both as a risk to people randomly passing through and just in general.

On a simpler level, pet jobs should just have some tiered traits that passively transfer a percentage of active buffs onto the pet. BST could be most proficient, PUP next, then SMN and DRG. Maybe at 90 or something it could be 100% of what the BST has to the pet, though just thinking of Nazuna in a high haste situation with berserk up could be scary, as BSTs aren't exactly slouches in a good DD build, either.

saevel

08-17-2011, 05:15 PM

Enhancing magic skill is a requirement for any attempt at serious melee, period. It's what we do and hopefully SE realizes this and utilizes enhancing magic for any new buffs.

And buffing BST pets ... wtfo. That's for the BST discussion not the RDM one, take it over there.

Most of RDM specific gear has mixed stats on it, the lv 50 JSE body for example (RDM/BLU), the wise gear (acc and m.acc) and such. The problem is that SE watered them down to the point of them being nearly useless and RDM just used other alternatives. SE never expected us to gear switch as much as we do, and it took them 7+ years to realize this. That is why your Emp armor has such bad a$$ casting stats on it. Having full +2 it's used in my "enhance other" macros, my nuking macros and my enfeebling macros (combined with other gear) and my "magic WS" macro that I use for A.Edge and S.Blade. It's also why we should be getting S.Blade natively, it would be leveraging our class's strengths into a melee aspect.

Which leads to the suggestion of giving RDM an ability that changes all it's melee damage into magic type damage, kind of like a permanent formless strikes (turn on / off as a JA). On monsters that take reduced physical damage but full magic damage this would give us an edge on. FS Ability + Enspell + Magic WS basically means we're dealing magic type damage through melee stats. And interesting twist and definitely within the theme of the job.

Also guys don't forget, we're getting Gain-DEX and Gain-STR very soon. With my current setup I can get +17 stat on myself, with the expected 6 skill per level increase of the upcoming cap that would be 54 skill (assuming no other gear chances) from 90 to 99, so +22 by the time we're 99, assuming no other changes. That is nice no matter how you cut it, hopefully SE will do the same for other stats and we can stack them (Gain-Atk + Gain-DEX and so forth).

Duelle

08-17-2011, 05:17 PM

Doesn't it make sense that we rally for some form of a melee buff to enhance our weakness to amplify our greatest strength of being a generalist?Except we go back to the point where generalist design doesn't work in MMORPGs. Multi-classing (AKA the subjob system) and gear were supposed to help alleviate that, but it's not been enough due to many reasons already covered.

It looks like some of them are still perfectly happy with being the job that mindlessly throws NPCs at mobs, even as the rest of the playerbase can see the gaping holes and shortcomings of it. It got a pretty big boost with the introduction of Abyssea, but in the end, the boost only makes it so even the most undergeared player can do modest damage.

Our pets don't receive buffs from other players aside from COR (which has all kinds of limitations on its own that spellcasters don't have). And we have a lot of potential flexibility that goes wasted by an ability system that takes all the worst points of PUP and SMN with none of the advantages. It has no interactivity with other jobs aside from being a low maintenance damage dealer. But at least we can solo Cerberus in exchange for a Fort Knox worth of fodder and food. And that's all that matters, right?!So I guess complacency and fear of change is not unique to the RDM forums. Color me surprised. Not kidding, either.

Supersun

08-17-2011, 05:30 PM

Except we go back to the point where generalist design doesn't work in MMORPGs.

Generalists work when in numbers they put the specialist to shame, but actually striking a balance between a generalist and a specialist is a near impossible task that realistically has to rely more on how content is developed then how the jobs are balanced themselves.

Duelle

08-17-2011, 06:21 PM

Generalists work when in numbers they put the specialist to shame, but actually striking a balance between a generalist and a specialist is a near impossible task that realistically has to rely more on how content is developed then how the jobs are balanced themselves.There's a reason I mentioned multi-classing and gear. The generalist is very dependent on mechanics within and outside the class to work properly (if it is possible at all). Yes, this includes the TP system, how job abilities are assign/designed, how multi-hitters affect that part of the game, relative strength of mobs, general expected tactics, and encounter mechanics and so on.

Ketaru

08-17-2011, 07:30 PM

And buffing BST pets ... wtfo. That's for the BST discussion not the RDM one, take it over there.

If the people in charge want to think the job will become overpowered if they give it a lot of buffs that makes them even more independent than they are now, fine, I'll let them think that.

That's why I suggested, in the interest of job balance, that maybe some enhancements can come in the form of enhancements provided by other jobs, to encourage cooperation between players. RDM seems like as good a choice as any for this.

But I suppose that is to be expected from you, since all you think Enhancing magic ought to be good for is melee.

Rayik

08-17-2011, 07:48 PM

I'll agree that reworking EX weaponskills would be a nice buff to RDM melee. It won't change how RDM gets used, but it'll be a nice boost for those who dabble in melee.

Job exclusive gear? You mean like War Hose (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/War_Hose)? As for Composure, that was as much a mage buff as it was a melee buff. If they could pull off more stuff like that I might be able to get behind it.

Similarly, just because it's in the game doesn't mean it's worthwhile.

The last thing we want is to have Red Mage's mage side neglected just so we can get a Tactical Parry update.

Unfortunately, I agree with this. Once in a great while an awesome update for a job comes along(Last Resort fix for DRK was amazing) but more often than not, we(all jobs in general) get something lame like Tactical Parry, or that game-breaking JT where we get 2 TP for casting a spell with a 5 second or more casting time, Occult Accumen or something? Composure was nice because it did benefit both melee and spellcasting. More of this would be great, but unlikely at this point.

Gear-wise, much of the AF1 set benefited both melee and casting, with buffs to Parrying, Shield Skill, Evasion, nice DEX bonuses, as well as Enfeebling, Enhancing, Elemental, etc. But, in hindsight, some of the other gear I was referring to, such as Ogre Ledelsens +1 (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/14159/ogre-ledelsens-1) appear to have a whopping one other job tag on it (BST). Even the Wise set, while still being terrible, at least added Accuracy and such. EVen beyond this, RDM was added to a lot of nice new gear in the past year, which we've gone over multiple times in this thread already(Atheling Mantle, Calmecac Trousers, ALMACE, etc).

If SE supposedly has absolutely no intentions for RDM to melee, then why did the job get added to those? Why do we get Almace, instead of a club or staff?

Other job forums have been getting comments from the actual Devs regarding future updates and intended direction, with as heated as these threads are getting in the RDM forum, it' be nice if maybe we could get something "official" stated regarding the future of RDM other than our lolEnhancing?

EDIT: Found the official response from the Devs several pages back. I'm slipping in my old age, that one got right by me. If all we get(for melee) is an adjustment to our WS's, I'm honestly fine with that. Give RDM a sword WS worth a damn that doesn't require an Empy and I will gladly tip my hat, bow out of these threads, and not bother anyone anymore. Though, I may start a few threads out of sheer glee, discussing melee gear and such. ^^

Supersun

08-17-2011, 08:37 PM

If the people in charge want to think the job will become overpowered if they give it a lot of buffs that makes them even more independent than they are now, fine, I'll let them think that.

That's why I suggested, in the interest of job balance, that maybe some enhancements can come in the form of enhancements provided by other jobs, to encourage cooperation between players. RDM seems like as good a choice as any for this.

But I suppose that is to be expected from you, since all you think Enhancing magic ought to be good for is melee.

To be fair he does have a point. You aren't as much asking for Red Mage to get pet buffs as you are for Pet jobs to get more pet buffs in general. There's nothing about Rdm in particular that screams that we should get new pet buffs exclusively (and if anything I'd think Bards would be the best candidate for them).

Asking for more pet specific buffs is better suited for a pet job forum and would probably reach SE's ears a lot easier then posting your ideas here.

Not that I think adding more pet exclusive buffs is that great of an idea anyway. I mean do we really need any more of them when the current existing ones aren't even used?

What really needs to be looked at is how when buffs start entering the picture that only half of a pet jobs damage is increased while every other job skyrockets ahead.

I can understand SE's concerns with buffing pet jobs. I mean pet jobs would clobber dedicated DDs if both the master and the pet received the full power of every buff the master received in high buff situations.

I think the real issue lies in the attack speed of pets compared to fully buffed players. It's not as much all buffs as it is Haste. Players suddenly gain a +500% damage increase with 80% haste while pets still stay the same.

One solution might be to add a job trait that transfers a portion of the masters delay reduction to the pet as well. Not the full amount necessarily since a 80% hasted sheep would pretty much murder everything that lives and breaths while being disposable.

Either way what pet jobs really are asking for is for their pets to scale in power along with players so that Bsts have more of a place in high buff scenarios. I don't think pet exclusive buffs are the best way to accomplish this though and other alternatives should be considerded.

-----

it' be nice if maybe we could get something "official" stated regarding the future of RDM other than our lolEnhancing?

Doesn't really matter to me since I'll take what they say with a gain of salt until I actually see them follow through myself.

-----

Edit: Can we stop treating that triangle at the bottom of everyone's post like a ratedown button. We do NOT need to start a post banning gang war between the pro and anti melee crowd as all it's going to accomplish is essentially erasing this thread.

Neisan_Quetz

08-17-2011, 09:37 PM

BLU with an Almace says hi? Considering they're only geared for Frontline and not anything else.

Except for the part they have to set their spells, they get penalized for having to change spells, and their magical nukes have long casting and recast times? In fact with or without Almace Blu is better off meleeing for most of their damage than casting spells on harder mobs due to their physical spells scaling horribly on anything without paper thin defense. They are not equal.

And I forgot the part where most of them have retarded range.

Heabea

08-18-2011, 12:11 AM

i think with SCH's ability to use most of RDM's single target spells and cast them on the entire party it would be nice if RDM got enspells3, stoneskin2, phalanx3, blink2, aquaveil2 etc. It sucks for a RDM to have to burn merits into phalanx2 and see a SCH just phalanx-aga for a better effect. Either make SCH the ultimate buffer and give RDM a whack of debuffs, or vice-versa

Ketaru

08-18-2011, 05:18 AM

Composure was nice because it did benefit both melee and spellcasting. More of this would be great, but unlikely at this point.

I don't see why. There have always been spells in the game that deal 2 effects, though they've mostly been of the debilitating nature (though, just as a buffing example, SCH's Stormsurge trait allows them to bestow both weather and an attribute boost): Dia and Bio, the elemental debuffs, Gravity, and now Addle. I don't see the harm of adding new Enhancing spells that also have 2 effects. The Manifesto discussion post already alluded to new Enspells that aren't really Enspells.

Earth Force
Adds additional earth damage to all attacks and reduces physical damage taken.

Water Force
Adds additional water damage to all attacks and increases Magic Accuracy.

Wind Force
Adds additional wind damage to all attacks and reduces spell recasting time.

Fire Force
Adds additional fire damage to all attacks and increases weaponskill damage.

Ice Force
Adds additional ice damage to all attacks and increases Magic Attack Bonus.

Thunder Force
Adds additional lightning damage to all attacks and increases critical hit rate.

Can even add a little bit of Seriha and SpankWustler's discussion in here and make the MP costs just prohibitive enough that, whether you use them for casting or melee purposes, it would be impractical to switch between them to meet immediate needs.

SpankWustler

08-18-2011, 05:57 AM

"Things are what things are, though" is pretty recurring theme of this thread, and while it is arguably appropriate to use here for RDM, it is that kind of mindset that I think got my other job into such a mess in the first place.

For years and years, BSTs told themselves that the job is fine so long as it can solo things. And looking at some of the comments over on that forum...

I don't really see it as the same argument, even though it's the same statement. To make Red Mage as viable a melee as it is a spell-caster, multiple elements of the job would require radical additions and even then it would be swimming against the current of FFXI's battle system. That kind of goal just doesn't seem reachable, in a big part because it goes beyond the job itself.

The changes to Beast Master would be as simple as job abilities that forfeit pet and master survivability for offense, but the anti-social elements in the Beast Master community would never ask for something that's actually useful. I swear, for people who like to be alone they sure talk a lot. Which bugs me as well to be honest, since I like the aesthetics of the job so much that I leveled it.

Of course, if the goal is just "stuff better than current en-spells by a large margin", I'm sure nobody would complain about Red Mage gaining a few more self-buffs for the purpose of hitting things with things. Well, I probably would complain if they did that instead of adding new enfeebling magic, but the new team seems to at least WANT to add stuff so I guess they would do both.

Quetzacoatl

08-18-2011, 09:29 AM

Except for the part they have to set their spells, they get penalized for having to change spells, and their magical nukes have long casting and recast times? In fact with or without Almace Blu is better off meleeing for most of their damage than casting spells on harder mobs due to their physical spells scaling horribly on anything without paper thin defense. They are not equal.

And I forgot the part where most of them have retarded range.

1 minute is all the time you need to prepare your spells anyway. Usually you're swapping your spells when you're preparing for a fight, right? I can't think of a situation where you have to swap your spells mid-battle.

Not to mention, doesn't CA+Efflux QC close an SC for a little boost in damage?

This is all not counting using magical spells to proc yellow and CW Burn when needed.

Neisan_Quetz

08-18-2011, 09:49 AM

I am not stating BLU's spells are not powerful where applicable, but you cannot say there are no drawbacks to them. If you are meleeing with Almace on Blu you aren't spending anywhere near half of your time casting spells or being asked to cast spells (maybe if you're tanking I suppose). If you are CW burning you aren't even using a sword most of the time except for trials.

VW is a situation where you would have to swap spells mid fight, and it is a giant hindrance to BLU.

Quetzacoatl

08-18-2011, 10:31 AM

I am not stating BLU's spells are not powerful where applicable, but you cannot say there are no drawbacks to them. If you are meleeing with Almace on Blu you aren't spending anywhere near half of your time casting spells or being asked to cast spells (maybe if you're tanking I suppose).

I'm not saying there aren't, but the drawbacks are oftentimes minor to really care too much about them.

VW is a situation where you would have to swap spells mid fight, and it is a giant hindrance to BLU.

I'd inquire more on how this is if I cared about VW, but I'll do so anyway.

Seriha

08-18-2011, 11:25 AM

VW is total crap on BLU. Basically any time a high element is found, you'll want to swap on any offensive spell of that element and try it. While some have tried to compile lists, I wouldn't exactly call it complete. And like in Abyssea, if it might be a debuff you can't land due to mob resists/traits, you're SOL. For some elements, unless you want to wait on multiple cooldowns, you've basically got gut your primary spells. Of course, your reward for jumping through all these little hoops while hanging back and not feeding TP will likely be a gold thread and a potion. Terrible event in its current incarnation.

SpankWustler

08-18-2011, 11:55 AM

This is way off-topic, but I can not contain my true feelings any longer.

VoidWatch is a really depressing event. There are several well-designed monsters to fight, but it all gets ruined by using a horrible proc system to fight desperately against horrible drop rates within an already horrible system of drop allocation. I'd rather use sandpaper to massage ghost pepper extract into my eyes than try to cast the right Blue Magic on a VoidWatch monster.

saevel

08-18-2011, 06:04 PM

If the people in charge want to think the job will become overpowered if they give it a lot of buffs that makes them even more independent than they are now, fine, I'll let them think that.

That's why I suggested, in the interest of job balance, that maybe some enhancements can come in the form of enhancements provided by other jobs, to encourage cooperation between players. RDM seems like as good a choice as any for this.

But I suppose that is to be expected from you, since all you think Enhancing magic ought to be good for is melee.

Your advocating a buff to pet jobs on a RDM update thread. While the idea isn't a bad one, and I do agree pet jobs need fixed, this is not the place to do so. And kindly GTFO with the strawman arguments. At no point in time did I EVER say enhancing was for melee only, I said it was critical for a melee build and that SE should pursue that route for potential melee buffs. Our enhancing spells are as follows,

Enspells -> Melee orientated
Phalanx -> Melee orientated, although can apply to any situation where your getting beat on
Aquaveil -> same as Phalanx
Spikes -> Melee orientated similar to Phalanx
Barspells -> generic resistance, WHM's overshadows us so much it's not funny
Gain Spells -> generic stat up, once Gain-STR / DEX are out then it effects both sides equally
Stoneskin -> easy to cap with half enhancing magic

Then
Haste / Refresh / Regen / Blink -> just as effective at 0 enhancing as at 426 enhancing.

I'm fairly sure everyone can see where this is going. Outside Gain-INT / Gain-MND SE simply hasn't given us any magic enhancing spells that actually use enhancing magic. This goes back to the "mage only" RDM's who leveled it for merits and gear. They have absolute sh!t enhancing magic and won't macro swap to case whatever little spells they do cast. As enhancing is notoriously annoying to cap, these people have ~zero~ interest in any adjustment that would force them to go out and cap enhancing magic.

Now please continue the trolling.

user201108211515

08-18-2011, 10:08 PM

ok please forgive me I didnt read all 300 posts.. I dont know if this has been mentioned.. And considering how many "i want to melee" posts I did see...

I have 2 words for ya...

Runic Blade

Must have main weapon as sword to even work. Even willing to say must be attacking the mob...

All magic spalls mobs cast are absorbed to your MP.

I'm sure SE will make it weak and it will only absorb one spell per JA use with 50 min recast but w/e

Considering how silence is next to useless on most high LV nms... I would say this would only be a fair alternative.

Along the lines of spells..

a dia/bio type spell that effects mob TP and MP(seperate spell for each)

regain... (I wonder how many rdms are curse me for even mentioning another spell they would have to cast in rotation)

a useless aginst NMs silence type spell.. amnseia ish... Prevents TP/JAs(yes mobs dont use JAs.. ballista hello =P )

Since we wont ever be seeing time mages...

How about... stop, quartr, demi, doom, death, curse, lol xzone, can go on and on here with old school spells..

If SE can give drks a scythe that rarely procs then why cant we have some spells that never work.

Back to reality though.. Rdms really should tell SE how badly RDM needs runic blade

user201108211515

08-18-2011, 10:47 PM

Forgot to add confusion to the list of spells we wont ever see. It would be more of a hate reset. How fun would that be.. Oh you thought you were tanking PLDs but now the whm has it lol. But seriously it would be interisting aginst hate rest mobs and kite fight mobs to have a rdm ready to reset hate if the blms take hate or w/e.

Again this is considering how we will never see time mage =(

Economizer

08-18-2011, 10:55 PM

Rdms really should tell SE how badly RDM needs runic blade

I find it funny that the most powerful abilities that each job is clamoring for all come from the same FF title.

cidbahamut

08-18-2011, 11:18 PM

Our enhancing spells are as follows,

Enspells -> Melee orientated
Phalanx -> General purpose
Aquaveil -> General purpose
Spikes -> General purpose
Barspells -> General purpose
Gain Spells -> General purpose
Stoneskin -> General purpose

You can make the case for enhancing magic being more important for melee, but please don't pretend that anything in that list other than enspells is melee oriented.

This goes back to the "mage only" RDM's who leveled it for merits and gear. They have absolute sh!t enhancing magic and won't macro swap to case whatever little spells they do cast. As enhancing is notoriously annoying to cap, these people have ~zero~ interest in any adjustment that would force them to go out and cap enhancing magic.

Now please continue the trolling.
What do full AF idiot RDMs have to do with anything?

user201108211515

08-18-2011, 11:47 PM

I find it funny that the most powerful abilities that each job is clamoring for all come from the same FF title.

Prolly cauz #6 is still the best FF ever ^^

Wars need dw 2h weapons
mnks need buton combos to do WS.. so they will be less bored.
... this game needs mimic job...
screw blu.. give us gau...
Ninjas that can throw any weapons.
A class that can throw tarus to deal damage...
I could really go on and on...

Rayik

08-19-2011, 03:38 AM

Prolly cauz #6 is still the best FF ever ^^

Wars need dw 2h weapons
mnks need buton combos to do WS.. so they will be less bored.
... this game needs mimic job...
screw blu.. give us gau...
Ninjas that can throw any weapons.
A class that can throw tarus to deal damage...
I could really go on and on...

FF6 had a BLU, it was the old man Strago.

Rayik

08-19-2011, 03:48 AM

You can make the case for enhancing magic being more important for melee, but please don't pretend that anything in that list other than enspells is melee oriented.

Ok, I gotta ask. How on earth are self-only spells like Phalanx, Spikes, and SS "general purpose" when they directly deal with something being in melee range and pummeling you? Bar spells I can sort of see being useful at all times, but those other ones literally have no effect unless you are in melee-range with a mob. Maybe Phalanx and SS against some AoE attacks, but Spikes?

What do full AF idiot RDMs have to do with anything?

This goes for both sides of the argument. Idiot players are not job-specific in this game. I've seen some RDM's melee'ing in full AF1, single-wielding, and it makes me want to pull my hair out. I know, I know, it's their money and they can play how they want, but they're doing more to hurt our melee cause than help it.

cidbahamut

08-19-2011, 04:19 AM

Ok, I gotta ask. How on earth are self-only spells like Phalanx, Spikes, and SS "general purpose" when they directly deal with something being in melee range and pummeling you? Bar spells I can sort of see being useful at all times, but those other ones literally have no effect unless you are in melee-range with a mob. Maybe Phalanx and SS against some AoE attacks, but Spikes?

Being in melee range is not the same thing as meleeing. As you mentioned yourself, Phalanx and Stoneskin act as damage mitigation, which is always useful. It's less about meleeing, and more about having hate. If you're gonna have hate, you may as well get some free damage from spike spells, and a free effect as well for two of the three options. Spike spells are pretty niche any way you slice it though, since unless you're soloing, chances are you won't have a mob wailing on you all the time. But I was under the impression that the never-ending melee discussion was more in the context of a party scenario rather than solo.

This goes for both sides of the argument. Idiot players are not job-specific in this game. I've seen some RDM's melee'ing in full AF1, single-wielding, and it makes me want to pull my hair out. I know, I know, it's their money and they can play how they want, but they're doing more to hurt our melee cause than help it.
Agreed. Idiots will be idiots no matter what job they exit the mog house as. So I'm understandably perplexed as to why saevel would bring them up at all.

Neisan_Quetz

08-19-2011, 04:35 AM

You don't even have to be in melee range for SS/Phalanx to be useful since they mitigate (at least some part of) any kind of damage, calling them melee oriented is silly.

Supersun

08-19-2011, 08:26 AM

At the same time if you are back lining properly against most mobs you aren't getting hit.

If you are in melee range some level of AoE damage is usually inevitable and Rdm's defensive spells do help quite a bit with that.

So yes, while they are useful for both front and back, just because of the frequency of damage you will be taking in the front, defensive spells tend to be more useful there than in the back.

user201108211515

08-19-2011, 09:21 AM

Ketaru

08-19-2011, 02:04 PM

Your advocating a buff to pet jobs on a RDM update thread. While the idea isn't a bad one, and I do agree pet jobs need fixed, this is not the place to do so. And kindly GTFO with the strawman arguments. At no point in time did I EVER say enhancing was for melee only, I said it was critical for a melee build and that SE should pursue that route for potential melee buffs. Our enhancing spells are as follows,

Actually, I was proposing spells for RDM that are on-topic in the Job Adjustments Manifesto thread, because you know, the Manifesto did say RDMs would be "support specialists who excel at transforming their allies from mere mortals into demigods with their enhancements." How do you know I'm necessarily asking for this from the non-RDM perspective? Maybe I've duoed with friends that have pet jobs before and would love the opportunity to buff them as I would any NIN or WAR.

You can take your strawman BS somewhere else because, to begin with, it's not like I suggested something totally out of topic. In fact, one of the support jobs, COR, already has Rolls that hint at this kind of support, so it isn't as if I asked for something totally out in left field either.

Rayik

08-19-2011, 07:37 PM

yes Strago is a blu but seriously.. who ever used him beyond the 1st event @ the fire house. Was always 2 characters to sit out and he was such a bench warmer.. Realm with fake mustache was much better and fun.

I liked Strago! He was one of the only characters that actually looked like he should be using magic, very old-school wizardy-looking guy. His blue magic was kind of lame compared to the other spells everyone else had access to through Magicite. I think the Magicite ruined everyone's unique abilities in FF6, since everyone can just learn Ultima and be done with it.

user201108211515

08-19-2011, 07:44 PM

Dont get me wrong, I got him all his spells every time I played through.. But yea his spells were kinda weak

lol yea but why ultima when you can 8hit everything for 9999 a hit lol

I had thought that before too.. Why can everyone use magic.. only tera and cells shoulda got them really

Rayik

08-19-2011, 10:05 PM

New Job stuff (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13085-dev1024-Job-Adjustments?p=173468#post173468)

So, RDM did get a Fast Cast JA. Not really sure how useful that's going to be except between battles.

Temper sounds interesting; allows target to occasionally attack twice.

Gain-STR; another nifty spell.

Not much really exciting for RDM on this one. Nice things, but nothing jaw-dropping.

cidbahamut

08-19-2011, 11:02 PM

The wording on the JA sounded like it was something we could use to target other party members, although that could just as easily be a bad translation.

Rayik

08-20-2011, 12:49 AM

Re-reading the post a bit, If Temper really is "occasionally attacks twice" and not just some form of DA%, then could actually be pretty massive. I posted the link first thing this morning, I don't think my brain was quite awake yet. OAT activates way more than DA in the case of weapons, so maybe this spell will mimic that.

Seriha

08-20-2011, 01:05 AM

I'm hoping for DA% over OAT like on Joyeuse and such. Latter doesn't work on WS, former can be further enhanced by gear like Brutal Earring and Atheling Mantle. And as Hyrist pointed out in another thread, it could mean it could also stack upon the DA trait if /WAR. So, if it happens to be 15%, that plus 10% /WAR, 5% Brutal, 2% trousers, and 3% Atheling, you're looking at 35% DA for any weapon you happen to pick up. Might not be Joyeuse's ~45%, but it's also a jump up from a D35 sword where current magians are mid-50s or higher. Could also maintain this /NIN with a DA% sword, similar to BLUs, who are likely to have DA set if focusing on melee (and that is seemingly going to evolve into TA with more spells).

Yeah, 15% is hypothetical, but something like this is one of those baby steps we've needed to steer melee away from lol status. I'm curious to see what gear could come along with this update along with the general WS adjustments.

FioryGriever

08-20-2011, 04:02 AM

Wondering if this is the new EN style spell they were referring to, and would it stack w/ EN spells if so.

Daniel_Hatcher

08-20-2011, 04:46 AM

The wording on the JA sounded like it was something we could use to target other party members, although that could just as easily be a bad translation.

JAP site (google translate) states Gain-STR is Self-Target only but doesn't do the same for this new spell.

Ketaru

08-20-2011, 05:11 AM

cidbahamut

08-20-2011, 05:22 AM

Everything like what Temper turns out to be (whether it can be cast on others or not, whether it'll have a duration that won't suck) remains to be seen, but I feel kind of belittled that they have given WHM Addle...not so much BRD because BRD will likely stack with us. But looks like my hopes of having job exclusive enfeebles has just been thrown out the window.

They did that when they handed Break to Black Mage so I can't really say I'm surprised by it. Disappointed, but not all that surprised. Masters of enfeebling, my ass.

Duelle

08-20-2011, 04:58 PM

JAP site (google translate) states Gain-STR is Self-Target only but doesn't do the same for this new spell.I saw that. So it'll be refresh II, haste, and temper post-95. =/

saevel

08-20-2011, 06:36 PM

Duelle

08-20-2011, 08:06 PM

I'd wait on that. The Gain spells have their WHM variants which hit other players, thus SE has always stipulated that the Gain's are self target only. I somehow doubt they'd give us another cycled spell after all the yelling we've been doing that we hate cycles.You're right, but we should keep in mind that us being in the right with how we hate cycles has close to nothing to do with whatever it is the devs want to do to RDM.

Though even then I'd still argue that most of the post-abyssea spells should have really come into the game much earlier to help flesh the job out better. As I mentioned in the melee thread, the Gain line should have come into play in the 60's (there's really no reason to keep RDMs waiting this long for Gain STR and Gain DEX). Temper would have been ideal at around 55-ish (provided it's self-only). All that being linked to my "grow into" argument.

saevel

08-20-2011, 08:22 PM

Yes it was a plain cop-out on SE's part to only introduce many of these things post-80. It should of been Temper in the 50's then Saber or Temper II in the 70~90 range. Just like the GAIN's should of been spread out more, it makes no sense to get Gain-DEX / Gain-INT in the last four levels (96-99), we should of got STR + either INT or DEX going from 90 to 95, then the last one between 96 and 99. That or they should of implemented these in the 60's and created tier II variants of them for 80+.

And while I'd normally take a very weary position when it comes to SE and RDM, lately they've actually been listening to our feedback. I'm hoping they might of taken a hint as the sheer venom expressed towards cycles and single targeting spells on 4~6 people, make it aoe-able or don't bother. (I wouldn't mind temper working with accession or some naitive RDM JA).

saevel

08-20-2011, 09:13 PM

Another thing to look at is how they listed the job abilities.

Black Mage
Manawell (Lv. 95)
Eliminates the cost of the next magic spell the target casts.

Red Mage
Spontaneity (Lv. 95)
Reduces casting time for the next magic spell the target casts.

Common sense indicates that these JA's effect the caster only, but the way SE laid them out is that they could be other target-able. Of course I doubt they would do that and it's probably bad wording on their part.

CapriciousOne

08-25-2011, 12:33 AM

It's more convenient for Reds as players to lug around an extra set of gear that give fencer trait rather than coding that in.
Just see it as the overall effort going towards RDM.

I'd be overjoyed if they'd just give me the option of transferring my Red levels to another job.

A good Red is dependent on gear swaps so they probably figured, 'they're used to it, so why not'.

Um that is what you call "LAZY" but right now I dont really care since I solo but swaping gear especially weapons is bs and wipes tp gained but since most parties b & moan about meleeing I guess that makes it a non issue. in any case I"m not filling up my hard earned inventory space with crapload of gear.

Doombringer

09-25-2011, 03:55 AM

not swapping gear leaves you effectively half naked all the time... or not naked sometimes and fully naked the rest of the time. think about it. any haste gear you ws in is wasted, anything that doesn't have casting stats on it when you cast may as well not be there.

i know it's a bitch to hit 3 macros per spell, but there's less than NO reason not to have at least ONE macro worth of gear swaps on every action you perform regularly. think of the macro as a hotkey and the gear swaps as gravy. 5 empty lines in there... may as well fill em (also, se... if you're listening.. why not more lines? i want more lines..... like, so bad..)

if you can't at least do that then it's not a matter of lazy.. it's actually EASIER to hit a macro than scroll all through the spell list to find the 1 out of 200 spells you need. cuz lets be honest, how often do you cast stuff like thunder2 poison1 and refresh1 at lvl 90? (now 95) you just don't macro EVERY spell. you cherry pick it down into a nice manageable amount.

as for your hard earned inventory space... wtf are you doing with it if not filling it with gear? you can only full-time 16 pieces.. what's clogging up your other 64 slots?

all that being said, yah you don't swap weapons while meleeing, but you can swap everything else......

and while i'd love for SE to add gear for rdm that is legitimately full-timeable just as much as the next guy, to save space and macro lines... until they DO, i'll be gear swapping.. and so should everybody else.... that is not an opinion, that is a fact. you just get better results if you gear for what you are trying to do.. why not change the way you're geared when you change what you're doing?