Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments. [Archive]

Insaniac

07-15-2011, 09:42 PM

This feels like an exercise in futility since we have been saying this for months now and SE clearly didn't read any of it or just doesn't care.

Vision
Stealthy pickpockets that duck and weave to land sneak attacks while keeping party enmity under control from the shadows. This is complete nonsense. 2 minutes into a fight a THF has almost no impact on enmity. TAing a tank with capped hate does nothing. Collabo on a DD gets hate off of them for a total of 1 second. Collabo on a BLM gets hate off of them for 1 nuke. THF is useless in this dept.

We wish to see thieves further develop the cunning they are so aptly known for by providing them with even more means of manipulating enmity and continuing to fatten the party's coffers.This is the part that makes me think I shouldn't even bother. What kind of a role is this to play? We all know our enmity abilities do pretty much nothing anymore which leaves us with the job of hitting the enemy twice every minute and then being blamed when we don't get what we want.

Example Adjustments

Adding a new ability that complements Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.

This one could be something good but even if it is it's not enough of a damage buff. THF is completely outclassed by dancers when it comes to daggers. This is NONSENSE. This would be along the lines of PUP being better at HtH damage than MNK... or SCHs having Cure 6.

Raising the chances of successfully executing Steal and Despoil commensurate with Treasure Hunter.

Really SE? Higher steal rates? Higher despoil? First off both of these JA are useless in an HNM setting. USELESS. The only thing steal is good for is aura steal and by raising the success rate of steal you are lowering the success rate of the only good thing about the JA.

Adding a new ability that intimidates an enemy in proportion to the number of members in the party.

Cool another JA that will not help us with the one thing we are actually still good at. Low man tanking. This will surely be a warcry type ability and only affect the members of your party so unless the thf is in the tank party, which it won't be, this JA will suck and bring almost nothing to the table.

So.. Here we are again. TH whores. Why has every post on this forum been completely ignored? I admit some of the ideas are terrible and unbalanced/unrealistic but a lot of them are reasonable requests for more DD power (at least enough to put DNC back in 2nd place when it comes to daggers) and steal type abilities that actually do something. How could you possibly think the 2nd and 3rd examples are things we would be interested in?
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MAJOR EDITS!!!

Since this has turned into much more than just the rage thread it started as I went through and tried to gather some stuff that shouldn't be lost in the vastness of the thread.

First we have the ComRep reply. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11492-Screwed-again-Proposed-THF-job-adjustments.?p=153704&viewfull=1#post153704")

And then -Adjustment suggestions that have been peppered throughout the thread.

Finally - The perceived problems that we ,for the most part ,were able to agree on once the RAGE settled

1) THF has no real use. TH2 is the best form of TH in terms of noticeable boosts, anything past that is all pretty much unnoticeable/unseeable boosts. So we're not even good for that beyond placebo effects.

2) We have no real DD capabilities, similar to a lot of lesser DD jobs, Except THF falls further behind than others in this Gap. Since 75 the gap between THFs power and the next best DD has widened much further. In this field, we don't ask to be top tier DD, simply to have the gap lessened.

3) Devs want us to be support class and "Control enmity" and as it stands THF has no real methods to "Control" enmity. 2 Abilities on a shared timer and no way to disperse extra Enmity does not a master make. So as far as the Devs "vision" of the job goes we even lack capabilities there

4) Over-all Lack of Uniqueness of the job, usefulness of the job. Right now the only thing keeping THF relevant is ignorance of Treasure Hunter, But once that becomes common knowledge I doubt THF will keep its head above water.

5) We're all disappointed by the BS Responses we got earlier, which basically to summarize tell us things like "Aura Steal is too powerful to separate from Steal, or Reduce timer", and "You can't have Subtle Blow because You melee for TH upgrades, and we feel that balances it", etc.

6) Practically 0 job growth since the level cap increases. THF is more or less the same exact job it was at level 75 where most other jobs have grown either slightly or exponentially. TH3 and the proc system seems to have been just a placebo put in place to keep THFs from being completely forgotten when TH2 became sub-able.

Nebo

07-15-2011, 10:46 PM

Adding a new ability that intimidates an enemy in proportion to the number of members in the party.

STOP. GIVING. THF. THESE RETARDED. PARTY ONLY RESTRICTIONS. ON JOB ABILITIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Insaniac

07-15-2011, 10:50 PM

STOP. GIVING. THF. THESE RETARDED. PARTY ONLY RESTRICTIONS.ON JOB ABILITIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

^ DNC and NIN already solo far better than THF so why can't we get some solo buffs?

Nebo

07-15-2011, 10:57 PM

Raising the chances of successfully executing Steal and Despoil commensurate with Treasure Hunter.

The chance of steal and despoil success is not the problem. The problem is that the abilities themselves are useless compounded by the fact that they don't work on NM's or any worthwhile content.

First and foremost, their recast timers need to be seperated and lowered. If you don't start with this, just leave them alone. Anything you do with them is just going to make people angry.

Second, despoil needs to have NOTHING to do with stealing items. IT is a half assed joke of an ability that lives between stealing useless crap items that NO ONE cares about and inflicting a variable enfeebling effects that we cannot make use of.

Despoil should inflict and then steal its enfeebling effect. And you need to be able to specificy which effect it will be....or it will remain.....USELESS.

Steal and Aurasteal need to be seperated. Non negotiable. If you are increasing the success rate of steal, that only means that it proc before aurasteal more often.

That aside, the issue with steal is not its success rate. It is the stupid 5 minute recast timer that you attach to everything, compounded by a retardedly low success rate, made largely irrelevant due to the fact that there is nothing really worth stealing in this game.

HAVE YOU BEEN LISTENING TO US AT ALL????

Alukat

07-15-2011, 11:15 PM

piece of gear which augments trick attack to transfer x% of thf's enmity to the TA'd target, makes sneak attack possible and will do significant changes to thf's dmg output.

THF needs to get rid of some enmity somehow, otherwise Sneak attack will still be useless!!!!!!

steal/despoil. to make them usefull the timers needs to be seperated & lowered and items need to be added on NMs/HNMs.
this items should be only obtainable via steal/despoil and they should be ingredients for high end gear/food.

otherwise steal/despoil will still be useless!!!!

JA for intimidation? seriously? that's beastmasters job (killer instinct)!!!!!

Edit:
and since weakness targeting th isn't required as it was without it,maybe th isn't neccessary at all anymore

StingRay104

07-15-2011, 11:45 PM

Btw did you all see that war is getting their own version of sneak attack, from any direction, ty SE............/rage.

Laphine

07-15-2011, 11:51 PM

I'm not going to rage i swear...lol

I didn't think the vision of THF was so bad actually. Kinda unreal: if we duck and weave, the mob is targeting us and there sure won't be any sneak attack happening then lol. But not so bad anyway.

This makes me worry about that JA to complement SA/TA. If it's an instant use JA, this could mean we will become more JA spammy and lose even more dps due their delay. So i hope it's something like a stance, 5min recast/duration, and as long as its up, it's affecting our sa/ta in some way.

War is also getting a force crit attack ja...This comes easy for them since they already had mighty strikes i guess. But really, THF losing what i thought was the only thing unique sucks. A lot.

DNC getting AC...haha...Where in their vision of DNC implied anything about them as DDs? I can't see it. This JA,climactic flourish, and probably more i can't remember, certainly have nothing to do with buffing the pt and debuffing the enemies that they talked about there.

Insaniac

07-16-2011, 12:35 AM

The WAR ability says "the next melee hit" so I don't think it will work with WSs. At least I hope not.

StingRay104

07-16-2011, 01:28 AM

The WAR ability says "the next melee hit" so I don't think it will work with WSs. At least I hope not.

A lot of ppl say the devs don't play the game and thus they suck at giving us good updates. I how ever disagree, they do play the game but they only play the job war. It all makes since seeing as how war gets everything while other jobs suffer, hell sam only got 1 update til this past one (No one counts hamanhoa because its a useless effect). Its most likely gonna be ws acceptable because god forbid they deny war all the damage goodies.

Laphine

07-16-2011, 01:29 AM

Oh i checked the french version and wording is a bit different on the sa/ta thing. Gotta say that i don't speak french lol (so i could be wrong), just used the powah of having a latin based mother language.

Anyways, it actually says something about a new skill on the lines of sneak attack and trick attack. So, a new crit forcing ja for us too?! Quite promising actually!

Winrie

07-16-2011, 01:58 AM

A lot of ppl say the devs don't play the game and thus they suck at giving us good updates. I how ever disagree, they do play the game but they only play the job war. It all makes since seeing as how war gets everything while other jobs suffer, hell sam only got 1 update til this past one (No one counts hamanhoa because its a useless effect). Its most likely gonna be ws acceptable because god forbid they deny war all the damage goodies.

False. You nor anyone else in the game except for SE know what jobs they play, you cannot forge a false fact off air. Secondly warrior has only gotten massive updates since abyssea, anything else before that has been useless job updates with pup ect. and SAM has been the update baby for years until abyssea came along. THF has always been stuck in this position of having nothing going for it except treasure hunter, this to be quite honest should not be a surprise to anyone, nor should this even be a thread. 8 year fact just sending you a reminder.

Laphine

07-16-2011, 02:11 AM

8 year fact that we are trying to change? This is why this and other threads exist. Posting in a official forum must have some kind of reverberation. The reason these forums exists is to demolish that wall between the devs and the players after all.

If the players give up, if the players don't voice their disatisfaction. How is it that SE will know anything? how is it that anything is going to change?

Insaniac

07-16-2011, 03:05 AM

Karbuncle

07-16-2011, 03:15 AM

Find a THF Main thats happy with the job? That shit can't be done.

Adding a new ability that complements Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.
Raising the chances of successfully executing Steal and Despoil commensurate with Treasure Hunter.
Adding a new ability that intimidates an enemy in proportion to the number of members in the party.

i smell a nerd-rage coming.

This crap is just proof SE's vision for thief sucks. They might as well delete the job now and give TH to someone else, because none of the above will fix or make THF any more desirable in anyway. at all.

The only thing slightly exciting is them doing something to SA and TA, however knowing the level of shit stew we usually get i can assure you it will have something to do with Enmity, meaningless crap considering the Enmity system is this game is retarded and any adjustments they can make to THF in that department are ultimately worthless and futile 1 minute into the fight when everyone worth a damn is capped on Enmity.

At least now we know THF will remain a useless sack of crap in the eyes of the community in every single way outside of Treasure Hunter.

I don't know why their Description of THF didn't just say "Weak useless masters of nothing whos only marketable skill is making more things drop, We plan on adding more useless junk to the job because we think Treasure hunter is enough"

Urthdigger

07-16-2011, 03:25 AM

Would drastically raising the enmity cap fix the problem with THF? Just curious as to what people think THF could use.

Nebo

07-16-2011, 03:33 AM

Would drastically raising the enmity cap fix the problem with THF? Just curious as to what people think THF could use.

No.

The enmity game is a futile one. No Tank/DD jobs that want a monster's attention have problems gaining and maintaining lots of enmity to keep hate. WHMs have low enmity cures. BLMs have enmity douse and a crap ton of survivability options etc etc.

They would have to retool the way enmity works in this game to make THF enmity manipulation abilities worth anything other than their secondary functions:

Trick Attack deals damage while ignoring evasion. Collaborator allows us to keep enmity in low man tanking situations.

These are their only practical uses. The the dev team seems to have no idea what a THF does or how it is played.

Karbuncle

07-16-2011, 03:35 AM

Just curious as to what people think THF could use.

The ability to be more than a TH Whore.

No THF (well, good THF?) Wants to be a TH whore and the guy who sits in the back hitting collaborator every minute. We want a reason to Melee, and we want our melee damage to not suck.

We're not asking to be the Kings of combat holding up to ~95% of a good WAR's damage, Just simply not so weak as we are now.

Right now, as it stands, rather THFs intend to face reality or not, outside of Abyssea, THF is so weak on new content (Read; Voidwatch, and future content to come) that we're almost completely pointless to bring. For Voidwatch we were completely worthless before they updated it to where TH effected lights.

But even thats not really a good enough reason to bring a THF. Outside Abyssea, We're the worst of all Melee DD. We are literally back of the line/bottom-of-thebarrel in Melee DD. Even PUP out-damages a THF. yes, go parse it, They do. Their puppet is part of the job.

All we(I?) Want is to be at least a semi-respectable DD, if i take my time to get a Mandau and the best gear, I should at least be able to do ~75/80% of the Damage a WAR does.

-----

And to answer your Enmity question, a Rep said it was impossible to "increase" the cap for Enmity (or in fact do anything meaningful to it), But if they did raise the cap, I don't think it'd help much.

I was too harsh in an earlier statement, In Voidwatch its not all about zerging, But as Collab/Accomp can't work across alliances, and the range is still too short, Its a very situational ability. Plus most jobs these days have ways ot keep themselves alive long enough to lose enmity, and WHMs to recover the HP lost during that time.

Enmity control abilities just are not useful when they involve trying to control others. because most players can already do that themselves, and if they get hate, Most of them will be fine thanks to things like PDT sets, MDT sets, etc.

Its not that i hate the THF job completely, I just hate how SE is trying to make us into something that is worthless in a game like FFXI. No one goes "OMG WE NEED A THIEF FOR ENMITY CONTROL", that hasn't happened since 2004 when SATA and first vokers were in style.

Nothing will change that :\

These are their only practical uses. The the dev team seems to have no idea what a THF does or how it is played.

I agree. Its funny, in the gaming industry some of the best advice is learning to take advice, and accept your vision might not always be paramount. You'd think after opening these forums maybe SE would actually see that we dont want to be masters of the Useless art of controlling Enmity, that we want to be an acceptable DD. thats all.

But i think they're sticking with "We know best for THF! Give them more Enmity control! since you know, everyones jumping for joy over collab/accomp.... right?"

That, or the JP THF's are splooging for more Enmity control updates. Anyone wanna read their forums and judge their reaction? I do. Brb.

Karbuncle

07-16-2011, 03:47 AM

Also, I read over the ~3 posts in the JP Thread, And i can't make it all out, But they seem to be on the side of "Useless junk, wheres our abilities to do more damage?"

I think one of them was complaining WAR is getting an ability to force a crit (I.E the trademark of SA and TA).

Google translate isn't wonderful but thats the gist of what i got. They werent exactly full-nerd-rage, But they definitely did not seem "Happy" about the idea of the THF update. They're asking for more damage output as well.

So I don't think this is a case of "JP asking for enmity control and NA wanting damage (being ignored", its more of "Everyone is being ignored and they're doing what they want".

Way to make use of the forums?

Laphine

07-16-2011, 03:48 AM

Know japanese karb? you should check what their wording on thf update too and give us a heads up^^. I bet it's different (not even google translate helped me there lol). The french and german ones sure were different and gave me some hope.

edit: nvm lol. you googled too^^

Zirael

07-16-2011, 03:48 AM

Find a THF Main thats happy with the job? That shit can't be done.

i smell a nerd-rage coming.

This crap is just proof SE's vision for thief sucks. They might as well delete the job now and give TH to someone else, because none of the above will fix or make THF any more desirable in anyway. at all.

The only thing slightly exciting is them doing something to SA and TA, however knowing the level of shit stew we usually get i can assure you it will have something to do with Enmity, meaningless crap considering the Enmity system is this game is retarded and any adjustments they can make to THF in that department are ultimately worthless and futile 1 minute into the fight when everyone worth a damn is capped on Enmity.

At least now we know THF will remain a useless sack of crap in the eyes of the community in every single way outside of Treasure Hunter.

I don't know why their Description of THF didn't just say "Weak useless masters of nothing whos only marketable skill is making more things drop, We plan on adding more useless junk to the job because we think Treasure hunter is enough"
Hmm, just had an idea how to fix Thief:
Job Ability: Treasure Samba (Inflicts the next target you strike with Treasure daze, giving it Treasure Hunter effect and allowing anyone striking the enemy a small chance to raise it's TH level); Dancer, lv.95
Job Ability: Treasure Step (Increases target's chance to be inflicted with higher level of Treasure Hunter. If successful, you will earn two Finishing Moves.); Dancer, lv99

There, I'd take it and live happily ever after.

Seriously, Dancer and even Ranger are to become Thief clones? Why can't Thief become a clone of Warrior, Ninja, Monk or Dancer? Steal/despoil update? The most valuable item we can currently Steal is Lesser Chigoe, Despoil Murex Spicule and some sushi maybe... I'm not looking forward for TH at level 99 to improve chances of doing that. The picture showing Thief farming Gold and Mythril Beastcoins in Beadeaux is very adequate here. I'd rather take Aura Steal, thank you.
Intimidation doesn't sound that bad, but rather, give that to BST, and give THF Blood Rage working in similar way.
No idea what endgame content is coming at 99, but we'll be probably sitting with mages again and running in every 50s to TA the frontliners/tanks? ;(

StingRay104

07-16-2011, 04:14 AM

False. You nor anyone else in the game except for SE know what jobs they play, you cannot forge a false fact off air. Secondly warrior has only gotten massive updates since abyssea, anything else before that has been useless job updates with pup ect. and SAM has been the update baby for years until abyssea came along. THF has always been stuck in this position of having nothing going for it except treasure hunter, this to be quite honest should not be a surprise to anyone, nor should this even be a thread. 8 year fact just sending you a reminder.

Who's forging a false fact? Ever hear of sarcasm. For your information the last things sam got are Konzan, Sengikori, sc bonus, Sekkanoki, Hasso/Seigan. Those are the only useful abilities sam has got goin back to the Hasso/seigan update that made sam "Overpowered." Since then sam has been nerfed many times, including my favorite the 2 handed down grade which also saw a nerf to sam's main ws's making it so the only weapon a sam can use is Hagun. Btw back during those post 2handed pre nerf days I would tp burn with a war in my ls who would use fort axe and constantly out ws dmg my sam, by a large margin. After the 2 hand update I swapped to drg to bird camp tp and the same story a war with fort axe would out damage a drg with mezraq on birds consistantly. That shouldn't happen, birds are weak to polearms and the fort axe is a weak axe. Nowadays war just keeps getting more and more, the point that really ticked me off was restraint, a ja that seemed to work better with any other dd job, but hey it at least removed the ability to crit, until the devs took that off for some reason. Now war gets to have a thf ability on its main job and could even sub thf for 2x the sneak attack, hell it should be called "Lolthf Attack" then we'd at least know what the devs are thinking. As for this being a thread, duh this is more than justified to being a thread, these threads exist to bridge the gap between us and the devs and we want to let them know we are pissed and to stop making things in this game flat out bullshit. Finally 8 year fact, thf has had very useful spot in any pt until dnc started taking all the unique thf abilities away and becoming the new thf while thf just becomes nothing.

Insaniac

07-16-2011, 04:16 AM

Would drastically raising the enmity cap fix the problem with THF? Just curious as to what people think THF could use.

It would have to be a complete rebuilding of the enmity system which isn't going to happen. If they want to make collabo useful, apply the enmity stolen as damage to the next SA or TA and make it work across partys.

Leonlionheart

07-16-2011, 04:25 AM

Btw did you all see that war is getting their own version of sneak attack, from any direction, ty SE............/rage.

Ignorance.

Sneak Attack =/= next melee hit is a crit

SA adds a DEX modifier for that attack or ws coupled with it (on thf main).

To me the fact that they are giving WAR a auto-crit JA is saying that they are going to do more Tank and Spank fights, like how everyone used to do Sky gods. Get 100 TP doing minimal damage, then bust out huge WSs. Not having to sub THF to do those WS's is a plus, and in such fights only really increases WARs defense.

Does it subtract from THF? No.
Does it overpower WAR? Well, yes. In Abyssea, but we all know we're leaving.

Insaniac

07-16-2011, 04:55 AM

Ignorance.

Sneak Attack =/= next melee hit is a crit

SA adds a DEX modifier for that attack or ws coupled with it (on thf main).

To me the fact that they are giving WAR a auto-crit JA is saying that they are going to do more Tank and Spank fights, like how everyone used to do Sky gods. Get 100 TP doing minimal damage, then bust out huge WSs. Not having to sub THF to do those WS's is a plus, and in such fights only really increases WARs defense.

Does it subtract from THF? No.
Does it overpower WAR? Well, yes. In Abyssea, but we all know we're leaving.
Forced crits have still always been THFs domain. As long as it doesn't work on WSs I don't care really but if they are giving them something they used to have to /thf for when they are already overflowing with DD abilities I will be annoyed just like I was with climactic flourish.

P.S. People will be in abyssea til the servers go down.

Kari

07-16-2011, 06:09 AM

Does it overpower WAR? Well, yes. In Abyssea, but we all know we're leaving.

And you talk about ignorance.
Like the above post said, Abyssea will always be around.
Just because there will be new, higher level content, does not mean Abyssea doesn't have things we'll want/need.
As we've already seen, Voidwatch is a new and on-going endgame event that we'll be working with, probably til 99, and it takes absolutely nothing away from what we use Abyssea for.

Anyway, as far as the topic goes, being a DNC and THF player, I find a lot of the comments to be hilarious.
Personally, I think THF and DNC could both use some improvements in certain sections, and people who think these adjustments are going to be useless for THF are ignoring the fact that this is just vague foreshadowing. >_>

Karbuncle

07-16-2011, 06:34 AM

and people who think these adjustments are going to be useless for THF are ignoring the fact that this is just vague foreshadowing.

I agree nothing is set in stone!

What worries me is Last time they released something like this they stuck to it pretty closely.

Unless they literally snap back to reality and completely rethink their idea of what they want THF to be, I think we'll end up with Abilities very similar to this level of useless.

Their idea of THF seems to be "Get more Loot, Control Enmity", and as i tried to explain no one really needs to worry about enmity control as most jobs have a form of Enmity shed already, or the intelligence for a PDT/MDT Set if they get hate. Even then taking 25% of someones enmity per minute will eventually add up on the THF, and only effects 1 person per ~17 if you're in an Alliance. not to mention only 1/5 because Collab/accomp doesn't work cross-Alliance.

Like i said, Even the JP are pretty much saying "Meh, Wheres our damage boost?". They're excited about the prospect of a boost to SA and TA (That was mentioned) but I don't think even they want THF to be some "Master of Useless Enmity" that SE seems to be force feeding us.

Has anyone really used a THF For Enmity since early 2004 SATA+First Voke Exp parties?

Its not because we dont have enough Enmity controlling Abilities, its because since then we've learned so much about the Enmity system those types of abilities are less than useful as intelligent players can regulate themselves!

Laphine

07-16-2011, 06:45 AM

Karbuncle

07-16-2011, 06:51 AM

How is it that such ability doesn't overpower WAR outside? WAR would certainly run into some trouble fixing equip around dex to reach crit cap. They are going from around 10% crit rate + ws bonus to 100%. Inside abyssea it's from 55% to 100%. They also gain the ability of building a ws completely around str with no discretion, and taking something like UF, this is huge.

I agree its pretty powerful.

But, I've actually tried to not freak out entirely over this, and calm down a little >_>.

After all if THF does continue to become a shit sandwich no one uses for anything but TH and all efforts to DD are ultimately futile due to SE's warp perception of the job as some master of useless Enmity, I have WAR and 13 other jobs at level 90 I can play.

I ain't gotta worry too much :D!

Laphine

07-16-2011, 07:05 AM

Oh yeah...still waiting for august here. But i'm trying hard not to go crazy lol.

Kit_Katz

07-16-2011, 07:44 AM

Dear Square, learn2Thf.

While the proposed Thf changes do surprisingly enough interest me every so slightly, it helps Thf in no relevant way in most all situations. Dispoil/Steal/Mug are already useless on all "End Game content", just leave them be, you messed up and they are worthless, I can live with that. The only use for Steal now is Aura Steal, the other 2 have no use whatsoever (and a 5min recast dispel is pretty shitty anyway).

All I really see in this Job Adjustments mention, is that you are taking away things specific to THF and giving them to other jobs, while supplementing the THF you just got finished b**** slapping with something totally useless.
Is that War "Sneak Attack" I see there? Even a Rng & Drg Version "Trick Attack"? Why not just delete the job and call it a day Square? Come on you know you want to, you have been trying for a good while now.

I have come to terms with being a TH tool, though I despise admitting it. Mostly thanks to abyssyea allowing Thf to do pretty dang respectable Dmg compared to other classes. But if voidwatch is any indication of future content, I see much lower prospects for one of the jobs I love.

My suggestion would be to continue to explore Thf in a damage dealing sense, not in w/e this nonsense is you are aiming for. Sort of like the ninja "sneaky massive dmg while maintaining control of enmity" thing. In many cases though, enmity has no need to be maintained or controlled by any source outside of the current tank and his/her whm. If they are doing their job right, a Thf has no highly useful asset to contribute to them. Likewise for a thf in a Blm party or other "DD Party", a Blm should know not to spam Tier 5 back to back non stop until they get all the mages killed, its really just common sense (a rare trait I know, but still).

Laphine

07-16-2011, 07:56 AM

lol didn't read your post but thumbs up for that learn2thf! lol

Atomic_Skull

07-16-2011, 08:50 AM

And they want to give DNC Assassin's Charge too. I guess giving them a non directional Sneak Attack just wasn't enough.

EDIT: No it wasn't because they want to give SA to WAR too.

Alaik

07-16-2011, 12:47 PM

Insaniac

07-16-2011, 04:09 PM

Guys, this has been going on since the beginning of the game. We REALLY shouldn't be surprised. 8 years. 8 YEARS. They haven't ever listened to us. Not when they didn't give a damn about anyone and now that they seem to care about everyone. It's not going to change.

Not trying to bust balls here, but before I quit, I leveled DNC and finally realized just how little SE cares about THF. :\
THF was an underrated job 8 years ago because no one knew how to play/gear it. As I already said, at the 75 cap, a good THF could hold their own and enmity control still had it's uses. Now we just keep sliding further and further down the totem pole. It's kind of hard not to be surprised when every single THF in the community is complaining about the job and being ignored and every other job is getting JAs and JTs that make sense and make them more specialized. It's surprising that SE had made DNCs better with daggers, given TH to 2 other jobs, given RNG and DRG hate control abilities, and in the process given THF absolutely nothing to set it apart. The only thing that sets THF apart from anything is it's TH level. That's surprising to me.

The only reason I come on these forums is to ATTEMPT to communicate with the dev team and try to get my 2 cents in conversations that they may see and take advice from. I already said it seems like an exercise in futility but I gotta try. Otherwise what is the point of this forum even existing?

Zirael

07-16-2011, 04:45 PM

I just did Dynamis - San d'Oria first time after this update and it is no longer possible to Hide from orc enemies. When asking for Dynamis adjustments (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10930-My-issues-with-neo-Dynamis) in this thread I mentioned that we're using Hide as a tool of hate management/shredding in Dynamis (depopping junk links and mage agros) and Hide was probably ninja fixed, so you can't any more Hide from Dynamis orcs.

Wow at breaking Hide because it's being used just as per their description of job's role in an event that has just been revived. Then again, it seems orcs follow by scent in outside world, so it was more like 'fixed', but it would be nice to read so in the update notes. Now, before everyone starts panicking, Hiding from Colibri still works fine, haha. /derail

Eadieni

07-16-2011, 05:14 PM

Totally agree with making Aura Steal its own ability on its own timer. That ability should be on like a 1 minute timer, 5 minute wait for a chance to dispel assuming you don't accidentally steal a crappy item?

Thief just needs a few abilities to be on par with how players want to play it. A retaliation-like move that gives TP for evading attacks would be great.

I've always wanted thief to get enfeebles on next attack. Like poisons. For example, trigger the move, and the next attack drops their defense severely. We have Feint, and that's great. That's the only one though, and it's a merit. It would be nice to have them for other effects, like Paralyze, Blind, etc. ... Yes I know we have crossbows, but the point is those aren't limited to Thief. A ranger can do that as well. I'm saying something only thief can do.
Acid Bolts are great... but having a series of thief-specific enfeebles would increase the classes usability against NMs.
I know in Sky Feint was very useful at the start of weaponskills, and more weakening attacks would be nice.
Even if said moves took a tool, like a thiefs poison consumed each time one of these JAs was used.

Babekeke

07-16-2011, 05:52 PM

It's hard to decide just how good or bad these new abilities are until we see the actual facts.
Assassin's Charge on DNC and Sneak Attack on WAR make me cringe, BUT if they are on a 5 or 10 min timer, I don't see it as much of a problem. DNC AC might even use up 50tp, which would mean it's only good for a ws, but would the damage be worth the loss of tp? I would doubt it.
The buff to SA/TA might be the stance that we've been asking for all this time. It might reduce recasts on the JAs by 50 or 75%? Or allow them to be done regardless of having someone to hide behind, or positioning on the mob.

I shan't start Q.Qing until I see the update in August. 6 Maat fights to do before then though so I'd better get keeling!

Byrth

07-16-2011, 08:55 PM

Insaniac

07-16-2011, 09:54 PM

You guys kinda misunderstand Dancer. It's incredibly unlikely that this "Assassin's Charge" Flourish is going to be useful. Assassin's Charge doesn't make weaponskills 45% stronger and doesn't let us self-skillchain. It's going to be a waste of finishing moves compared to Reverse (2 FMs = 40 TP, realistically only need 90 TP after WS to WS again).

In short: you can silence the alarm, because we've had a superior JA since level 40.I understand that this triple attack flourish might end up being useless but it's still a bit of a slap to the face and it still doesn't change the fact that DNCs have a higher potential for dagger output than THF. As I said before, imo, this would be like PUPs putting out more HtH damage than a MNK or a DRK nuking for more than a BLM or SCHs getting Cure 6.

Covenant

07-16-2011, 10:35 PM

Byrth

07-16-2011, 10:37 PM

Insaniac

07-16-2011, 11:04 PM

Or SCHs getting Tier 5s and nuking for more than BLMs? Or Samurais doing better Namas Arrows than Rangers? Or Samurais using Polearms better than Dragoons (at 75)? SE hasn't been incredibly consistent with game mechanics, but at least you guys are being outclassed by another job whose primary weapon is dagger.

As for the rest of it, I wrote a wall of text here (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=1310416442266022552&h=50&p=3#124)and I don't feel like rehashing it. xD

I'll admit I'm no SCH expert and I know they can put out big nukes but they aren't outclassing BLM in the over all nuking game. If I cared about BLM I might look into it more and complain about it if it was a problem.

Don't have much experience with this either but I did have a few colibri parties with Yoichi SAMs and they were nothing special and SAM never threatened to be better at the overall ranged damage game.

SAM -> DRG with polearm was a myth. I parsed my DRG against dozens and dozens of SAMs and none of them ever came anywhere close to beating me. The only way that would be possible is if I listened to people when they asked me to /nin on DRG.

Laphine

07-16-2011, 11:57 PM

Alaik

07-17-2011, 05:50 AM

THF was an underrated job 8 years ago because no one knew how to play/gear it. As I already said, at the 75 cap, a good THF could hold their own and enmity control still had it's uses. Now we just keep sliding further and further down the totem pole.

We must have played 2 different games. Back before the dagger damage upgrade hitting 0 on exp mobs was extremely common. No other jobs had that problem. And back then I was still a good geared THF. SH when it was hard as fuck, etc. THF has NEVER been considered a great job. We had a brief period where we were desired 30-60, but guess what? 60 comes around and suddenly all those /THF whipped us. From WARs, to MNKs to DRKs.

Byrth

07-17-2011, 06:37 AM

I liked your idea on TH a lot. For sure, if TH wasn't so passive and luck based, things would be very different. Currently, simply being the TH guy is just not fun. So we need to hold onto something most players define as fun, and that's dealing damage. And this is probably where some give up on THF and look for fun on another job. Good for them i say. But others (myself included) are still here, waiting for fun to be added to our table, be it something obvious as moar DD power, or something innovative (and useful - we have enough of nearly useless abilities).

Thanks! Haha.

It would force parties to do something other than pull, have their THF/BLM mule cast Sleepga, and kill to maximize their drop rate. If it had been this way since the beginning of the game, player equipment would minorly indicate something other than amount of time spent playing. Splitting SA and TA and using them as often as possible would become a strategic thing to maximize TH on monsters. SATA->WS would be reserved for big baddies that everyone wants drops from. It would change the way we play the game and our strategic approach to events. Good Thieves would be valued, while bad Thieves would be mocked.

Apart from the gameplay improvements, it would make daggers like Twashtar, Vajra, and Mandau indirectly add TH through added WS damage. Also, the alleged players that insist on TK Main-hand still (I've never met one) would be forced to shove off.

Here's the kicker:
It really wouldn't be difficult to implement. They have all the raw parts of the system right there in the game already. It's just an extension of their current TH system.

Potential criticisms:
It would make the some events very Thief-centric. However, if SE is honest about the "THF=Treasure Hunter" views that seems to permeate all of their updates to the job, then forcing people to bring along a Treasure Hunter when they're Hunting Treasure isn't really that out of line. Thief is one of the original 6 jobs, after all.

And it isn't like it excludes other jobs. You know the saying... It takes three to SATA! Oh ho ho, I should be put in jail for my bad jokes.

Lokithor

07-17-2011, 07:17 AM

The thing that SE doesn't realize is that EVERY melee job wants to do good damage. In order to keep the melee classes happy, you need them to have parity for their damage capability FIRST and then differentiate with other abilities.

Karbuncle

07-17-2011, 07:24 AM

I'm so disappointed in the player base across all jobs. All post ever say no matter what job is "...I WANT MORE DAMAGE". I know I'm preaching to the deaf, blind, and dumb but here goes anyway... If you want straight damage play Warrior or black mages any other jobs combines elements of party dynamic with job abilities.

We don't want to do epic damage, We want our damage not to be mediocre to the point of pointlessness. We're not asking for some godly Buff, We're asking to be ACCEPTABLE DD. Voidwatch is the only out-side Abyssea content i can think of besides KCNMs, so using that as an example, THF's damage on Voidwatch mobs is exceptionally worthless. To the poin their 1 and only use is TH whore.

Bonus: Their TH isn't really even worth it either, You can do everything they can do with TH just by simply capping your spectral alignment, Because from what i gather, TH bonuses dont take it over the cap. yay

Its not a sin to want our job to be able to melee effectively, and not having to default to gimmick crap either no one wants (Enmity "control"), or Treasure Hunter.

Now as far as the SE post...
We don't know the kind of "numbers" SE is talking about. Intimidation via party member, while sounds like "Killer Effects" might actually raise the cap of what, 8%? If each member were to say give 5% towards the "intimidation", then a thief could end up having a 25% "killer effect". If you can't see that this will help in "thief tanking" well, you blind and dumb.

What good is killer Effects if you aren't tanking? This would only be slightly useful in Abyssea, While thats wonderful, Our problems don't really exist there. There is absolutely no point to giving us an intimidation effect when we wouldn't be tanking (I.E Any "party" scenario). While i admit it would have very situational uses, We don't need more incredibly limited and situational Abilities.

I like that you're trying to look at this in the positive, I however cannot ignore your insults about us being dumb/deaf/blind to anything throughout your posts so you have to forgive me if it feels like i'm cutting the niceties for you.

The "warrior crit", we don't know the timer, nor the bonus %. A 5min timer one a single attack or weapsonskill is hardly going to steal a thief's role. If a 1min timer then yes, we can scream foul.

Its true, We know little about it, however it still does not ease the pain that SE is siphoning off what used to be signature THF traits. Triple Attack to DNC (As byrth explained will likely be useless though), A "Trick attack" Sounding ability to RNG, and a Forced-Crit (SA/TA) Ability to WAR.

While i have 1/3 of the above jobs leveled, and am happy for an update, I Think we're allowed to be a bit P.O'd they have yet again refused to give THF any meaningful reason to be active during combat. upgrading TH at a 0.00003% Chance per melee swing is not enough, especially when that chance is being given through the damages of 1-15 dmg a hit (I'm estimating here, haven't done much voidwatch on THF......... I wonder why?)

People say, the whole enimity thing is broken and can't compete with damagers. Well if you combine the new thief's enimty skill, whatever it is with the new paladin enimty "constant"(lowered enimty decay), depending on the "numbers" this could keep Paladins much higher on the enimty list. Once again, we need to know by a factor of what?

Well, The only real problem i have with the Enmity cap is that its too low. Plus, Collaborator is on a 1 minute timer, and it only effects 1 Person per 5 in your party (not including you), If you're in an alliance its 1/5 for 17 because you cant even use it on Alliance members. Its party only.

Unless we wanna bring a THF to every party for Collaborator Rotations? That sounds quite silly even to you doesn't it... FFXI isn't played that way. Good players know how to control their Enmity when its needed, a THF is not required, Not to mention draining 25% of a persons Enmity every minute will eventually add up to the point the THF will have hate.

*GASP* a reason for the Intimidation JA?!? Shame the THF would be dead or already losing hate in a matter of milliseconds considering they wouldn't even be able to hit the Enemy for more than 10-20dmg (or lower) a swing.

1/Treasure Hunter trait actually lowering recast timers on all "steal" moves by a factor of X%.

Not a bad idea.

2/Treasure Hunter "Sekkeanoi" or whatever its called, allowing failed steal to have chance at immediate recast.

Hmmm, Not sure.

3/I don't agree that aurasteal be a "separate" /JA. However, expanding it into other /JA could be fun. To include mug and SATA.

Do... Do you have THF leveled? This i disagree with completely. Aura Steal is a great part of THF, solo or in groups. I think what really needs to happen is to lower Steal to a 1 minute timer. Its not that broken to the point its going to cause the Economy to crash at this point.

and we need to separate Steal/Despoil timers, it was a bad idea to begin with, We're level 90, Is 2 steals really so broken?

Mug needs to be significantly reduced as well, Possibly under 5 minutes. I Do agree adding Aura Steal to mug would be very acceptable.

4/ on Despoil, this move similar to a mob move should un-equip mobs. With higher tiers of TH, more equip. This translate to a armor down effect of X% per "piece of mob armor".

lower a mobs DEF% Per Despoil? I kinda like the Idea, But i also liked the Idea of Despoil inflicting Ailments based off whats stolen.

(I.E If people haven't noticed. A Despoil effect is linked to the item stolen. IF you steal a Buffalo hide from a Buffalo, it will always inflict Evasion down, If you steal a Meat, Its always Slow, and so on)

Would this be a side effect or a 100% thing? How long would it last? etc. The idea is pretty decent but i like despoil how it is now.

I just wish they'd make Despoil/Steal work on NMs, you know SE, Endgame content?. That way its not useless.

Edit: And in case people have seem to have forgotten, I'm aware none of these changes are set in stone. stop bringing it up, It doesn't change the fact their "Job direction" For THF seems to be focused entirely on being a Loot-whore and a Enmity Controller, TH Whore, I'm okay with, it is the only positive to the job, an Enmity controller, While i could accept this, They would need to fix THF's damage first.

More Edits below, spoilered

Laphine

07-17-2011, 09:32 AM

I just wish they'd make Despoil/Steal work on NMs, you know SE, Endgame content?. That way its not useless.
So true...i think if it worked on nms we wouldn't laugh so much at this JA. Most times i don't even use steal/aura steal on nms, so the shared timing would be hardly an issue. But yeah, nms, (Yes, please.).

Karbuncle

07-17-2011, 09:38 AM

So true...i think if it worked on nms we wouldn't laugh so much at this JA. Most times i don't even use steal/aura steal on nms, so the shared timing would be hardly an issue. But yeah, nms, (Yes, please.).

Yah, Thats one of my biggest peeves with Steal/Despoil, is its inability to work on NMs (only place i can think that breaks this is Dynamis).

I just think it wouldn't be game breaking to add Despoil pools to NMs, so we can inflict something other than an Exp mob with ailments :|

Laphine

07-17-2011, 09:56 AM

oh despoil works on dyna? never even bothered lol

Karbuncle

07-17-2011, 10:03 AM

oh despoil works on dyna? never even bothered lol

Meant Steal >.O, I don't think Despoil does.

Alaik

07-17-2011, 06:01 PM

It does not.

Seankp

07-18-2011, 03:53 AM

I agree with much of what has been posted and honestly think THF is getting screwed yet again on any potential DD power that the job has, and honestly, the job has the potential to be one of the better DDs in the game, if played right.

While other jobs are getting bonuses to their DD abilities or even new ones, THF is getting further and further behind and has to work that much harder just to keep up. This is something that a THF can't keep doing, because at some point, the THF is reaching their maximum potential and in the past they may have put them in the top tier, if these trends continue, a maxed out THF is just going to be behind all those token WARs and SAMs and NINs.

There are many ways I could list that would be beneficial to make THF a top contender still, but really only 2, maybe 3 that I would love to see actually implemented.

Give THF Quadruple Attack Job Trait - This should be a no brainer. Triple Attack used to be our baby, now every job is getting some form of it and it's not so special nor specific to THFs anymore. Sure, other jobs can get it with Tiwlight Knife and Ganesha's Mala, but give it to THF, let it be something they get naturally!

Job Trait for Critical Hit Rate Increase - It's no surprise that THFs main source of damage come from critical hits. THF currently has a Job Trait for increased Critical Hit damage, so why not one for increased Critical Hit rate? This would need to be something special and specific to THF, give us things that other jobs can't get other than being TH tokens!

There are many other ways one could improve THF, like Subtle Blow, DEX Bonus Job Trait, AGI Bonus Job Trait, better Dual Wield levels, hell, even A+ Dagger skill would help, even if it's only 7 levels of skill, but the 2 above traits would help establish THF more than all these, and I really wish SE would give them to us.

Karbuncle

07-18-2011, 07:03 AM

Theres a few fields where THF falls short on HNM Level content.

1) Attack Values.
2) Over-all DPS.
3) WS Damage.

To fix these types of things. I have some proposals. I've mention these in other THF-related threads, But thanks to spoiler tags, I can post them now without being worried of spamming up the place :D!

Alaik

07-18-2011, 09:44 AM

Laphine

07-18-2011, 09:48 AM

lol i would be happy even if we get only one of those.

Insaniac

07-18-2011, 11:18 PM

Since we have established that we all pretty universally hate the direction SE has picked for THF we should post what we would like to see. Let's try to be reasonable with our ideas so as not to start any arguments. If you don't like someones idea try to be constructive about it. Tell them why and tell them what you would change.

I think Seanpk and Karbuncle have hit the nail on the head. Those are the kind of reasonable DD enhancements that THF deserves. They make sense for the job. They don't break it in any way. They just make it better at the stuff it's already doing.

I personally would love to see:

•Capitalize - JT that increases the chances of a critical hit after evading an attack.

•Triple attack II (Or Quadruple attack either one would make me happy)

•Tactical Evasion - Same thing as Tactical parry but with a lower TP return. 1tp would be fine. Or don't make it proc on 100% of evades.

•Separated Despoil options (similar to Quick Draw) that don't steal items. See below. Credit to Nebo.

Some of these would need to be dialed back a bit, but it would be a great step towards making Despoil a cool ability instead of the most useless JA added since level 75.

•A tweak to Accomplice/Collaborator:

First, separate their timers. Next, make that enmity transferable via TA or SATA so you can spam these abilities without eventually capping your hate and dying. These abilities do very little in the first place once enmity is high and usually just result in 5 minutes of weakness before the fight ends.

I would love for the job to be tilted more towards critical hits and stealing (a.k.a thievery). FYI , SE, just cause you put the word "steal" in the description of collaborator and accomplice doesn't make it a "steal" ability. If someone takes something from me that I don't want, that's not stealing. For example I have never called the cops on my garbage man.

Phen

07-19-2011, 01:51 AM

So a general question since part of this topic is a lack of ANY kind of feedback. Has anyone seen a community rep post in any of the job forums? I never noticed anything in those forums on the dev tracker.

Karbuncle

07-19-2011, 02:21 AM

Alaik

07-19-2011, 03:53 AM

No, I've never noticed a Rep response to a job Forum.

But i haven't looked. I think they said something in a BST topic once about never letting our pets zone because of game balance.

I dont remember.

I believe that was posted with a dev tag in the general forum. Don't quote me on that though.

Insaniac

07-19-2011, 04:08 AM

I think there was post by them in the COR forums? I was hoping maybe they would take notice because this thread has been in "Hot topics" for a few days now.

StingRay104

07-19-2011, 04:19 AM

along with every other job that got screwed over by their Job manifesto lo. I hope SE finally listens to all of us.

Karbuncle

07-19-2011, 04:22 AM

For the sake of more reasons to bitch. I went through all jobs forums and have found out that...

1) They've only commented on 4 threads across every single Thread in all Job forums
2) 2 of them were to say "no" (Wyvern "Color" Thread, and BST "Zoning" Thread)
3) One of them had nothing to do with the jobs (a Guarding/Parry Skill up comment in MNK Forums)

Now, I know they read Job forums because of the above, But either they cannot comment on job forums very freely, Or the DEV team is really slow at getting back to them in regards to job-specific Adjustments.

Whatever the case, it seems clear the Devs (not Community reps) don't seem to care about our opinions on the jobs. Especially with how some of these "Visions" Look. THF i think its the single most disappointing one because they continue to ignore just how mediocre and terrible THF Damage is in every single meaningful way (Outside of Abyssea Content).

Safe to say we probably shouldn't expect any responses, But for the benefit of the doubt, I doubt this is the Reps fault, and probably falls more to the Dev team either giving them slow responses or stone-walling them on meaningful information specific to jobs.

Still, What are the point of job forums when it seems obvious the devs dont listen to it? I can look in the THF forum itself and a good chunk of "THF Suggestion" related ideas are asking for a buff to our damage. (with the occasional buff Steal(lol?) threads, I guess some people just like us being useless gimmicks >______>?)

Edit: Plus, i Cannot say they completely ignore Job Forums, Sometimes they just don't respond about it. For instance, I've asked for a way to make it easier to skill up Automaton countless times, and we finally got a skill up Attachment. They do listen, Even if they don't always respond to us or tell us they do.

So in a way, I give them the benefit of the doubt, I know they're here and i know they listen, Its just a matter of the Devs either going "yah THF needs more damage" or "Fuck that pile on the Enmity control abilities that are ultimately useless, maybe we'll buf steal next too. Everyone knows how useful steal is on endgame conten...OHWAIT ITS NOT"

Cowardlybabooon

07-19-2011, 04:49 AM

Phen

07-19-2011, 04:50 AM

Well even a "we mentioned to this team no feedback at this time" would be helpful. The thing is as a lot of the general issues are the same in the thf forum: we dont parse well, our unique abilities are functionally useless (steal/lockpick/hide on most things). And what use to be class defining, evasion, Triple atk, and Even Treasure hunter is not unique anymore. When so the community is identifying the key issues consistently why not address it, hell make a quick sticky of issues per job the dev team is aware of and lock it.

a side note: Their vision of hate control thf doesn't work if we cant put out damage. Really hope its damage and not hate on the proposed vision change to sa/ta.

Phen

07-19-2011, 05:02 AM

The thing is i would easily sas war is more survivable than thf has in damage- if that makes sense. That being that with /sam /nin defender/base stats etc etc war is able to easily play full force or tank. Secondly if these are both "melee dd" then the gap shouldn't be quite so large.

Karbuncle

07-19-2011, 05:11 AM

I think their problem is, they don't think THF should be a good DD, I concur it should not be Better than a WAR, or DRK, or SAM, because their strong points are all in their Melee capabilities.

But their other problem is, they're massively under-minning THFs DD potential to the points its completely worthless to bring. I don't think SE realizes we're smart enough to kill NMs without needing a THF running around making sure someone doesn't die because they have hate.

They seem to assume we're so stupid we need a third party to control our enmity to keep a fight going. Hell even the current hardest content (Voidwatch) no one needs or even bothers bringing a THF too, Because 1) TH Doesn't do anything you cant already do with lights in Voidwatch, and 2) They're useless in DD department and Enmity control is pointless in alliuance seetings.

They clearly either hate the job or don't understand how the playerbase plays the jobs, and how a job designed to control Enmity and do mediocre-terrible damage will never be needed or brought. The only thing we're useful for again is TH, and thats even completely useless in our Current endgame, Voidwatch (all it does is help caps lights easier, it doesnt break the cap or anything, So its more or less a crutch for those who cant already cap lights easilY)

Zyla420

07-19-2011, 05:32 AM

I didn't read all posts, but I read quite a few and came up with two comments. First, a lot of people phrase their comments as if these other jobs are unavailable to them. If you want war's dmg, play war. Second, If you want survivability, you're going to have to sacrifice dmg. Sorry, thf will never kill as fast as war, but war dies a LOT. If they gave thf both, it would rule the world. Now in everyone's defense, I do think the suggested improvements are pretty boring. Something along the lines of a 3 hit force perfect dodge sounds a lot cooler to me.
i love how it's always the lvl 90 war's that use this excuse. we don't want to play war... if we did, we'd play war. it's not about boosting thf's dd capability to ungodly proportions that they put war/sam/drk to shame. it's about making us not useless outside of abyssea. it doesn't matter which melee job you're using, nobody wants to hit endgame mobs for 0-10 dmg on melee hits. nobody.

stop bringing this "go play war" argument to the table, as it's not a valid argument to the subject at hand.

Insaniac

07-19-2011, 05:35 AM

I didn't read all posts, but I read quite a few and came up with two comments. First, a lot of people phrase their comments as if these other jobs are unavailable to them. If you want war's dmg, play war. Second, If you want survivability, you're going to have to sacrifice dmg. Sorry, thf will never kill as fast as war, but war dies a LOT. If they gave thf both, it would rule the world. Now in everyone's defense, I do think the suggested improvements are pretty boring. Something along the lines of a 3 hit force perfect dodge sounds a lot cooler to me.

THF dies just as quickly as WAR does on the current "hard stuff". In abyssea no one with a WHM should ever die. NIN does better damage than THF and has far better survivability and the same goes for DNC.

I also don't see where anyone asked to be as good of a DD as WAR or any 2-hander but THF is falling further and further behind even in the 1h game. We are voicing our frustration with the lack of attention to that aspect of the job. Their vision for the job stinks and is the exact opposite of what the entire english speaking community of THFs on these forums is asking for.

Phen

07-19-2011, 05:59 AM

I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a update. Everybody's out of work or scared of getting nerfed. 1000 gil buys a 100s worth; LS are going bust; everyones at their moogle on job change;monks are running wild in the street, and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it.

We know the job is unfit to dd and our food is unfit to give enough bonus stat. And we sit watching our PCs while some job manifesto tells us that today we get two enmity control ja and three useless steal buff, as if that's the way it's supposed to be!

We all know things are bad -- worse than bad -- they're crazy.

It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go play thf any more. We sit in the house, and slowly our job functionality is getting smaller, and all we say is, "Please, at least leave us alone in our treasure hunter. Let me have my triple attack and my drop rate and little white hood, and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone."

Well, I'm not going to leave you alone.

I want you to get mad!

I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot. I don't want you to write to camate, because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the drk and the enemity cap and the relics and the gilsellers.

All I know is that first, you've got to get mad.

You've gotta say, "I'm a thf, for Altana's sake! My job has value!"

So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs(actually get back in them). I want you to grab your mouse right now and go to forum tab, open it, and stick your little blinky cursor thing and yell,

"I'm as mad as dynamis,

and I'm not going to take this anymore!!"

Insaniac

07-19-2011, 06:05 AM

^
This made me do one of these. :)

EDIT: Of course it's a new page.

Lokithor

07-19-2011, 07:13 AM

So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs(actually get back in them). I want you to grab your mouse right now and go to forum tab, open it, and stick your little blinky cursor thing and yell,

"I'm as mad as dynamis,

and I'm not going to take this anymore!!"

Oh - oh. I remember what happened to Howard Beale.

Alaik

07-19-2011, 01:05 PM

Taken from alla, this is why we can't have nice things.

Thf's complaining "WE'RE ONLY USEFUL AND ALWAYS WANTED BECAUSE WE INCREASE DROPS RATE BY A LOT!". Man, I wish I had something that made me so useful, wanted, and in such demand that I basically had a free ride ticket into any party anytime I wanted. It sure must suck being a THF :(

I personally think THFs should be the masters of hate control though, would be really fun.

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 9:17pm by ShiyoKozuki

You heard it here first. THFs get an instant invite to any party any time they want, all due to TH. You fools should stop complaining.

Insaniac

07-19-2011, 03:15 PM

Cross forum trolling. It's the new thing.

Insaniac

07-20-2011, 12:27 AM

We need a controversial topic like RDM melee to keep this thread in the "Hot topics" section. Someone think of something to bait the flamers.

Phen

07-20-2011, 01:02 AM

Start suggesting blanket nerfing of other jobs to below thf current, other jobs will descend upon the thf forum like the huns.

Here are some ideas to incite riot:
DNC is healer/dd take away haste samba and change feather step to increases drain samba drain by 2.
Ninja shadows should lose more hate or having them drop completely causes half damage the shadows took.
Does rdm really need enfeebles when they could just give buffs?
Pup AI can be fixed by making it so they melee or ws only- thatd fix that!
Shouldnt beserk act like charm for warriors blocking them from commands till the monster is dead?

Alaik

07-20-2011, 01:05 AM

Cross forum trolling. It's the new thing.

You have to admit, the quote was funny. :|

As for flame bait... Uh... SAM and WAR need more DD updates, RDM needs cure VI, WHM needs a lowered cast time on regen to offset this, PUP is too powerful it should be nerfed, THF is the best job ever solely due to TH, SCHs nuke better than BLMs, BLMs nuke better than SCHs, SMNs are only good for curing /WHM, and the cake is a lie.

That's bound to make someone rage, somewhere.

Nebo

07-20-2011, 01:09 AM

I personally think THFs should be the masters of hate control though, would be really fun.

My issue with enmity control is that any player worth their salt is very aware of their own enmity and the tools their job has to manage it.

The only real way to make THF desired for enmity management is to make groups NEED a THF to effectively manage the flow of enmity. Which would require a DRASTIC overhaul of our enmity manipulation abilities that we are never going to see. Hai2U Shared timer/party only/retarded range Accomplorator, Trick Attack based on (weak)Damage, and that craptacular 4 yalm range increase to Accomplorator.

And quite honestly, I would hate a FFXI where it was really necessary for a THF to manage enmity. SE would have to make it so that tanks couldn't hold hate effectively without one. That every other DD and mage would get their face murdered for lack of a THF there to manage their enmity.

That is what it would take for groups to desire THF for enmity control. And I have a very hard time believing anyone would be happy about that.

Insaniac

07-20-2011, 01:52 AM

Alaik

07-20-2011, 02:52 AM

My guess is the party only limitation on collabo is a much more deeply coded problem. I think anything you are able to use on alliance members has to be something you can use on anyone anywhere. There's nothing in the code to allow for an alliance only option. In other words, if you can use it on anyone in your alliance you could use it on anyone not in your alliance also. That would cause huge problems. IDK what it would take to change that but I'm sure there's some PS2 limitations involved. Although.. TA works across parties so maybe there's some hope.

As far as making us wanted for our enmity control, I don't think that's their concern. They already know we are wanted for our TH. They think of enmity control as an "icing on the cake" but it's really more like a fly on top of a turd sandwich.

AnywHay.. I thought of a couple other things I would like. Warning, these 2 are slightly less reigned in:

•THF has no damage boost for zergs but we're always in them. Yes we get feint but even AV doesn't require feint anymore. Now, don't get me wrong, PD has saved my ass plenty of times but I would much rather have a nice damage boosting 2hr. So...

Triple Strikes - 100% Triple attack for 30 seconds.

As for PD, make it just like perfect counter.

•Job trait: Solo artist - When not in a party the positional requirements of SA and TA are removed.

Funny thing about PD - http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/topics/backnumber/detail/060330_1.html

Same announcement that made SMNs QQ until they got Alex/Odin. Well, except they said "They're thinking of new avatars" whereas they said "We will be adding a bonus to the Steal job ability and changing the 2-hour ability Perfect Dodge to be more beneficial in offensive situations. When thieves stands behind the enemy while Perfect Dodge is active, they will receive a damage bonus to their attacks." Note: We WILL be adding.

GG SE?

Honestly Mighty Strikes would be the most useful 2H for THF, as it helps our severely lacking attack value. But SE would never give a unique job specific.. Oh wait.

Insaniac

07-20-2011, 04:07 AM

Yeah I remember that. I guess it slipped their minds.

EDIT: Just noticed the DRK emo thread posted in general got a response. It's a pretty universal response but it sure would be nice to get our own. Then we would know we aren't being overlooked because we actually post our suggestions in the right sub forum.

Alaik

07-20-2011, 04:30 AM

They also flat out said BLM will be getting comet AND meteor. But well, those jobs aren't lolTHF.

AKA: What they said to DRKs and BLMs cost nothing and ultimately, those jobs have always had pros and cons which were at least marginally equal. (Before any DRKs go epic QQ on me I've played DRK before, and no it didn't match SAM for the long period SAM was busted, but it didn't suck either).

Thief's issues are way more complex as SE refuses to even ackowledge any problems with it.

Karbuncle

07-20-2011, 06:07 AM

I feel like just about everything that can be said has been said.

I'm actually quite surprised just as many THFs hate our over-all lack of well...... everything in all fields except Loot-whoring. Honestly felt like there'd be more people going "ENMITY CONTROL AND DESPOIL UPDATE ROXXXXX".

And despite my obvious NERD-RAGE Earlier, i feel i should at least acknowledge i know the reps are reading here. I know they're looking at our ideas and sending them off if they think they're good.

We just have to hope the Dev team feels our requests are Valid. We love TH, We just don't think thats an excuse to keep the THF job so mediocre in combat that we have no place meleeing anything stronger than a Land worm.

Please note im not talking about Abyssea, Abyssea we're fine, Its outside content that will cause the problem, and outside content is where we're heading. It will be exactly like level 75 all over, Even the best THF is still the worst DD in the party, and your only goal is to make sure you have TH on it, Where a THF is judged only by "Do you have TH4?". I wonder if they notice these things...? I don't want to go back to those days.

Phen

07-20-2011, 08:25 AM

Karbuncle

07-20-2011, 10:47 AM

I honestly did not even notice both of those were in General until you said something.

I guess job forums are basically no-mans land for Reps lol

Alaik

07-20-2011, 11:42 AM

Honestly, you can't blame them. Between RDMs who want everything, PLDs who want to be the absolute best attackers and defenders in the game, SMNs who want a "life-sized bahamut that you can ride that one shots everything, can kill players who annoy them, and destroy cities all while restoring MP instead of costing it.", etc, it'd be a headache. However, that could be wrong given they answered job threads, even if they're in the wrong forum.

PS: Those examples are not literal, nor are they saying those jobs don't need fixing as well. (Actually, anyone who thinks PLD is fine is off the rocker and should be banned from any job discussion)

Insaniac

07-20-2011, 06:58 PM

Just being all nerdrage by comparison and going to note both of those are in general forum and i think the last thf topic there got moderated back to here. Maybe I should attempt to make a "heres a quick digest of our forums-- not a single person is defending the way steal works etc etc."

You should do it. It seems like most of the com.rep. replies come from general discussion which is where none of the threads they are replying to belong. It's pretty annoying. Every job with valid concerns deserves at least an acknowledgement that they have been heard.

Karbuncle

07-20-2011, 08:47 PM

Smush

07-20-2011, 09:54 PM

I noticed that and I tried posting there but no real comments >.>

Smush

07-20-2011, 10:17 PM

Maybe we should bring these ideas to the general forum we might get a response

noodles355

07-21-2011, 01:41 PM

Cross forum trolling. It's the new thing.It's not new. (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/40756-Alla-pics!)

Babekeke

07-21-2011, 06:48 PM

Don’t fret dark knights! These example adjustments are just that…examples. It doesn’t mean that every single thing is going to be implemented as stated. All of your suggestions and opinions on these concepts will be relayed to the development team and they will of course consider them when actually creating the adjustments to be implemented. Just keep in mind that their concept of dark knight, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice something in return for something else.

That is the reply to the Dark Knights complaining about their new JAs. It can be slightly re-written to show what they would respond to this thread, if they could be bothered:

Don’t fret thieves! These example adjustments are just that…examples. It doesn’t mean that every single thing is going to be implemented as stated. All of your suggestions and opinions on these concepts will be relayed to the development team and they will of course consider them when actually creating the adjustments to be implemented. Just keep in mind that their concept of thief, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice damage and usefulness in exchange for gilfinder, steal and treasurehunter.

Laphine

07-21-2011, 07:49 PM

yeah lol got that right

Alaik

07-22-2011, 07:36 AM

Game, set, match Babe. lol

StingRay104

07-24-2011, 01:04 AM

I honestly think that SE won't respond to anything in the job forums. That DRK thread was in general forums, so perhaps you should start this up in there. Hope SE finally gives you guys something cuz I agree its complete bs that war gets everything and other jobs get ignored.

Knives

07-24-2011, 03:01 AM

I posted something in the feedback section of the Forums. Whether they see it or not is beyond me- seems like that place is barren of views, for the most part.

Babekeke

07-24-2011, 07:07 AM

I posted something in the feedback section of the Forums. Whether they see it or not is beyond me- seems like that place is barren of views, for the most part.

You posted that in the forum designated to feedback about the Official FFXI website and forums. You will know when it has been read, because it will be moved^^

Washburn

07-24-2011, 07:49 AM

Hey i heard this funny joke ata bar:

Scavenge

Insaniac

07-24-2011, 08:10 AM

Yes, scavenge is stupid, but it's a JA that was made 10 years ago. Despoil is new and there is no excuse for stuff coming out now to be that useless.

Raxiaz

07-24-2011, 08:13 AM

All triggering weakness does is open up more slots for stuff to drop IIRC, for yellow weakness. TH still heavily affects drop rates of seals and other equipment.

Karbuncle

07-24-2011, 01:31 PM

Hey i heard this funny joke ata bar:

Scavenge

Yah Scavange is useless. But so is a lot of THF jobs. No reason both cant be updated. Its not like because 1 job has a bad ability no other job deserves updates!

Besides, Scavange is useful for 1 thing! Firesand :O! for bullets. and keeping a timer on NMs with 5 minute respawn placeholders :3

Babekeke

07-24-2011, 04:57 PM

Besides, Scavange is useful for 1 thing! Firesand :O! for bullets. and keeping a timer on NMs with 5 minute respawn placeholders :3

That's what hide is for too^^

Karbuncle

07-24-2011, 05:07 PM

Hide is also useful for Hiding from Sight Aggressive Enemies and being able to SA from anywhere.

Could also use SATA > hide before a battle and initiate it on the tank without needing a first voke :D! this works great for exp parties too.

Did you know you can use Trick Attack without dropping hide o-o?

Babekeke

07-24-2011, 05:34 PM

Hide is also useful for Hiding from Sight Aggressive Enemies and being able to SA from anywhere.

At the risk of being the vicitm of sarcasm (dam not being able to tell from the written word!), yes, I've been using this since I got my AF coffer in monastic cavern all those years ago^^

Could also use SATA > hide before a battle and initiate it on the tank without needing a first voke :D! this works great for exp parties too.

Think I first used this in quicksand caves on ants^^

Did you know you can use Trick Attack without dropping hide o-o?

This I actually only learned in the last year, but have still never used it. Sneak Attack on the other hand, would be far more useful.

Feel free to Whooooosh me if appropriate lol {I'm Sleepy}

Knives

07-24-2011, 05:43 PM

You posted that in the forum designated to feedback about the Official FFXI website and forums. You will know when it has been read, because it will be moved^^

Ugh, seriously? I thought it was also for feedback on the game itself. Looks like I wasted a bunch of time, unless I repost it elsewhere and look stupid in the process.

Babekeke

07-24-2011, 08:38 PM

Ugh, seriously? I thought it was also for feedback on the game itself. Looks like I wasted a bunch of time, unless I repost it elsewhere and look stupid in the process.

Yep unfortunately, sorry to be the bearer of bad news :(

Washburn

07-25-2011, 03:30 AM

Yah Scavange is useless. But so is a lot of THF jobs. No reason both cant be updated. Its not like because 1 job has a bad ability no other job deserves updates!

Besides, Scavange is useful for 1 thing! Firesand :O! for bullets. and keeping a timer on NMs with 5 minute respawn placeholders :3
It's funny you say that, b/c all i've ever used it where it was worth anything was camping Valkurm Emporer. other than that, the materials are old news and not used anymore. It'd be ok if they updated it and made stuff like actual quivers of usable arrows scavengable.

Sorry for wrecking the THF thread with RNG crap.

Tokiro

07-25-2011, 04:34 AM

Hi, just thought I'd add some thoughts from the JA forum, since I can speak Japanese and Karbuncle among others seemed to be wondering about it.
There is now a thread about THF damage and whether it should be raised. シーフの火力(THF damage)
Almost all of the posts are leaning towards not raising THF's DD abilities but giving the job more of a unique place in the party. Most of the posts acknowledge the uselessness of THF's enmity control (or lack of it) and seem to want abilities that are particular to THF which can enhance the party's success. Enhanced dual-wield, enhanced subtle blow, enhanced triple attack, more abilities that can debuff the mob or weaken it (more use of throwing weapons like tathrum (but more like angon) was also mentioned).
That seems to be the general feel of the JA forums. Please remember, none of these are my personal opinions so don't rant at me, ok?

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 04:46 AM

Draylo

07-25-2011, 05:02 AM

I'd like for them to add more utility to thief. In past FF games, THF was never a damage dealer, it was mainly something you used to get more loot and gil. I think it should be the same in this game, add more steal abilities and other unique utility moves. Being able to mug everything would be nice, we rarely fight beastmen anymore. They could also add "mix" to thief and be able to mix together some things like Rikku in FFX and enfeeble and heal and such. Would make soloing easier too for people who want it.

I just mainly feel more steal options should be available. Being able to steal low end equipment (steal head, steal hands, steal legs) while enfeebling (lower stats from stealing, mnd int etc) and not sharing a timer with despoil or steal. I think more emphasis should be placed on utility and not damage, we already have enough damage dealers in this game. Let's face it, THF wasn't a big DD before abyssea and won't be after. It wasn't the intention in past games either, like I said, it was mainly for enhanced loot/gil.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 05:11 AM

Past games aside, console based Single Player RPGs often play differently than MMOs :| If our job was good for nothing but stealing items and mugging it would be completely useless outside of fun little RP gimmicks.

TH is the only thing keeping us afloat. While i definitely would not discount any more THF-RP-like elements to the job, I don't think it should be the only thing we're good at.

I'm asking for a little versatility, in the DD department, as well as unique things. Theres no reason a job can't have both...

Draylo

07-25-2011, 05:17 AM

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 05:43 AM

THF does have versatility in that department. It is a mediocre DD at best outside of Abyssea, just like it should be. How are those things nothing but "little RP gimmicks"? They enhance everything the party would want, more loot and gil. I hope you aren't asking THF becomes a top tier DD, that is a little ambitious considering the amount of DD already in the game that are made for that role. Why not ask for something else?

Are you trolling Draylo? I know you're not that daft. THF are great as Treasure Hunters, I've admitted this pages back. My only want is to be worth more than TH.

Take BLU, for example. You can DD fine, You can tank to some good extent, You can Cure well ,and you can buff nicely, you cover a lot of different aspects. THF? We're good for Treasure hunter. Nothing else, at all. My only want is for us to be good for things that TH isn't helping us on.

KCNMs, Voidwatch, BCNMs, any Battle-field event really... On Voidwatch as, TH doesnt raise lights above cap so it doesn't do anything you can't do without a THF. Which is sad. I expect more Voidwatch Content and as such THF would be rather pointless to bring to that.

On the bold, If you read the thread or any of my 1000 posts on this subject you know thats not even remotely what i want. right now our DD is mediocre, I want it to be a little above mediocre. Small buffs like say

Triple Attack II (10%) over our normal Base 5%
Dual Wield III~IV (same level as DNC)

Small things like that. Simple boosts to our overall DPS. I don't care what the job was in past Final Fantasy, In past Final Fantasy's Summoners were god-tier, RDMs Meleed, and WHM's shot bows. It doesn't matter what happened in past FF and its the worst argument on the board.

What matters if FFXI, and as such, I'm concerned that THF as a job is condemned to mediocrity simply because players who feel the job should remain garbage because it has TH.

I'm not asking us to out DD WARs, I'm asking for a small boost in the DD department, So when we're invited to TH whore a mob, We can actually contribute a bit more meaningful damage to the battle

Edit: For fairness sake, I'd take some meaningful buff in a support role too. Maybe Traits that hinder the enemy, Rather it be a JA that inflicts the Target with specific Ailments thats not linked to a 10% chance proc, Not working on NMs, and a 5-minute timer, or something that sets the enemy up to be more vulnerable to future attacks.

maybe a JA that increases the damage the enemies takes for a short period? Or an Ability that enhances the potency of Debuffs landed on the enemy after striking it. Something that aids a group like that i would take.

Nynja

07-25-2011, 05:51 AM

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 05:55 AM

In Voidwatch TH only ups your lights a small amount, Doesn't raise it beyond the cap or anything.

At best its just lets you hit light cap a teensy bit quicker :|

Draylo

07-25-2011, 05:56 AM

Which is why I suggested they added more utility to the job. You think adding more DD is going to make people wanna take THF over MNK or WAR or some other better DD for an event where TH isn't needed? I highly doubt that.

@Karbuncle, No I'm not trolling, and I'm not being daft either. I was asking a question, not stating something. If you aren't advocating for THF to be top tier DD then good, if so, get your head out of the clouds. THF only doing one thing? Hello, have you met White Mage, Bard, Black Mage?

I never said THF should remain mediocre (this is a bad statement too, THF is extremely important in this game. I use it for almost EVERYTHING due to increase drop rates which lowers the amount of time you spend doing X thing.) They should be given more utility, yes they can upgrade damage but that shouldn't be a primary focus as it seems you want it to be. If you wanna play a DD job go job change to WAR.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 06:04 AM

Which is why I suggested they added more utility to the job. You think adding more DD is going to make people wanna take THF over MNK or WAR or some other better DD for an event where TH isn't needed? I highly doubt that.

I don't want the Useless kind of Utility is all. a DD improvement and some unique aspects to the job? I could accept either/or.

Secondly, No I don't think they'd invite THF for DD, You don't get it... Thats probably my fault for not spelling it out enough. I'm saying that this tiny DD boost will make us replace a SAM or WAR, Duh, Thats not what i want.

I want, that when Invited to TH whore a mob, That i can at least pull off acceptable numbers that its worth meleeing the mob. Right now its really not, the only reason a THF DDs now is because they cant do anything else. I just want our DD to be a little better so its not so pitiful.

I don't expect to replace a DD, i want to improve damage a bit so when i am invited for TH, i can at least contribute to the party in more than just that 1 way. contribute well.

@Karbuncle, No I'm not trolling, and I'm not being daft either. I was asking a question, not stating something. If you aren't advocating for THF to be top tier DD then good, if so, get your head out of the clouds. THF only doing one thing? Hello, have you met White Mage, Bard, Black Mage?

Try reading the thread before posting then? No i dont want THF to be a top tier DD. I'm sorry if i gave that impression.

On 1-thing jobs

WHM - Cure and Buffing both well.
BLM - Enfeebling and Nuking
BRD - you got me there, All they do is sing.

I never said THF should remain mediocre (this is a bad statement too, THF is extremely important in this game. I use it for almost EVERYTHING due to increase drop rates which lowers the amount of time you spend doing X thing.) They should be given more utility, yes they can upgrade damage but that shouldn't be a primary focus as it seems you want it to be. If you wanna play a DD job go job change to WAR.

If you read my Edit, I said I'd take utility gain. As long as its not worthless utilities like Enmity control like their "Vision". no one has invited or needed a THF for Enmity control since i started this game in early 2004.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 06:09 AM

I don't want the Useless kind of Utility is all. a DD improvement and some unique aspects to the job? I could accept either/or.

I agree, but how are additional steals for more loot/gil useless utility?

Secondly, No I don't think they'd invite THF for DD, You don't get it... Thats probably my fault for not spelling it out enough. I'm saying that this tiny DD boost will make us replace a SAM or WAR, Duh, Thats not what i want.

I want, that when Invited to TH whore a mob, That i can at least pull off acceptable numbers that its worth meleeing the mob. Right now its really not, the only reason a THF DDs now is because they cant do anything else. I just want our DD to be a little better so its not so pitiful.

Um, what about THF DD is "pitiful" atm? I assume you are referring to Voidwatch? Otherwise I hope this is a joke in regards to old content(which THF DD'd just fine on at 75 cap aside from few high end NMs) and Abyssea.

I don't expect to replace a DD, i want to improve damage a bit so when i am invited for TH, i can at least contribute to the party in more than just that 1 way. contribute well.

Try reading the thread before posting then?

WHM - Cure and Buffing both well.
BLM - Enfeebling and Nuking

We are talking about primary roles here, BLM is a nuker and WHM is a healer, buffs fall under healing and light enfeebling (uh sleep?) doesn't really count as a huge secondary role.

Aside from that, I tank almost everything on my Thief. Thief is a DD, a Tank, Utility in TH, one of the few ability to reduce hate (WHM don't regain hate that quickly, BLM can deal more damage when a THF steals enmity even if it only lasts for 3 nukes or so before they start getting beat.) Thief is a great soloer, can hold mobs very well with evasion, in the past was a decent puller, can enfeeble with bolts (zomg look, same thing you did for BLM). etc etc, stop trying to seem like THF does nothing but TH.

If you read my Edit, I said I'd take utility gain. As long as its not worthless utilities like Enmity control like their "Vision". no one has invited or needed a THF for Enmity control since i started this game in early 2004.

I agree, why you are attacking my thoughts though, I don't know.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 06:11 AM

In abyssea a lot of your points stand. My concerns were never with Abyssea, or out-dated 75-level content.

Its Endgame out of Abyssea, and Endgame through 99 Cap. Where THF will be as weak as we were at 75 (Even further back now if you consider how much the other DD jobs were buffed).

Edit: A bit more...

I agree, but how are additional steals for more loot/gil useless utility?

Steals that do something more than take an item would be nice. Taking an item doesnt help your party. at all.

Steals that work on ANYTHING MEANINGFUL (I.E Endgame content, NMs, etc) would be nice too. I would accept them so long as they didnt share timers and actually did something useful.

Um, what about THF DD is "pitiful" atm? I assume you are referring to Voidwatch? Otherwise I hope this is a joke in regards to old content(which THF DD'd just fine on at 75 cap aside from few high end NMs) and Abyssea.

yes, we're fine in Abyssea, another point i brought up in one of my countless posts in this very thread...

We are talking about primary roles here, BLM is a nuker and WHM is a healer, buffs fall under healing and light enfeebling (uh sleep?) doesn't really count as a huge secondary role.

Aside from that, I tank almost everything on my Thief. Thief is a DD, a Tank, Utility in TH, one of the few ability to reduce hate (WHM don't regain hate that quickly, BLM can deal more damage when a THF steals enmity even if it only lasts for 3 nukes or so before they start getting beat.) Thief is a great soloer, can hold mobs very well with evasion, in the past was a decent puller, can enfeeble with bolts (zomg look, same thing you did for BLM). etc etc, stop trying to seem like THF does nothing but TH.

THF can't do any of those things you listed very well outside Abyssea. Have a THF Tank any T3+ Voidwatch NM... My concern isn't about Easy-mode Abyssea. Its Outside of Abyssea that worries me.

I agree, why you are attacking my thoughts though, I don't know.

Because your thoughts seemed to be, judging only your first post "THF is fine you have TH, Give it more Steal and Mug abilities".

Which alone didn't sound very.. intelligent. but the elaboration did help

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 06:15 AM

Wait a sec!

Nynja

07-25-2011, 06:17 AM

(1)Thief is a great soloer, (1)can hold mobs very well with evasion, (2)in the past was a decent puller, (3)can enfeeble with bolts (zomg look, same thing you did for BLM). etc etc, stop trying to seem like THF does nothing but TH.

1-awesome for party aspect...what part of an instanced fight will reqire holding mobs with evasion? Most are 1 boss...
2-in the past...key word, PAST
3-good luck

Draylo

07-25-2011, 06:19 AM

I guess we just have two opposite viewpoints here. I feel they should increase THF utility instead of focusing on DMG. I know what you are saying, a little boost in DD so THF can help DMG the mob is fine. I don't think there needs to be that when you can SA/TA for moderate dmg and do something else though. I feel we have a lot of DD already in the game, THF should have something unique that makes people wanna bring it to events, that something is enhanced loot atm and should be in the future. Most high end NM fights never even have more than a few people on it, THF can at least hit it with SA/TA. I don't think I would ever want a THF hitting away at a high end NM in end-game unless they dealt a large amount of dmg, which shouldn't define THF since it isn't a top tier DD. THF can also deal moderate numbers (and did at 75) with SA+WS. I would agree that a job ability to enhance dmg in that respect would be fine.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 06:23 AM

1-awesome for party aspect...what part of an instanced fight will reqire holding mobs with evasion? Most are 1 boss...
2-in the past...key word, PAST
3-good luck

1- If there is a fight with a mob that pops multiples copies ? I can think of Blodbignag and a few others.. It was an example.
2- Yes the past... there hasn't been a need for a "puller" anymore, but fights can be invented that use that. A lot of people used THF to kite off Jailer of Prudence with flee for example.
3- Good luck? It is the same deal as BLM, it can be used to crowd control if needed, sleep bolts etc.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 06:24 AM

Why not simply Improve SATA? that gives a bit more utility too. Add a JA that increases the mods of SA with each hit landed. 1) an excuse to melee, 2) Meaningful reason to do said act.

I'm all for more Utility as long as its the right kind of utility. Enmity control was not the right direction in my eyes.

Nynja

07-25-2011, 06:24 AM

Except now SE is obsoluting TH...and the change to Voidwatch is garbage for TH. Isnt it like...an extra 2% to light for every level of TH, and some lights go up to 250%?

Nynja

07-25-2011, 06:26 AM

1- If there is a fight with a mob that pops multiples copies ? I can think of Blodbignag and a few others.. It was an example.
2- Yes the past... there hasn't been a need for a "puller" anymore, but fights can be invented that use that. A lot of people used THF to kite off Jailer of Prudence with flee for example.
3- Good luck? It is the same deal as BLM, it can be used to crowd control if needed, sleep bolts etc.

1-The only way a thf is going to get hate on those extra copies that spawn attacking a different target would be to attack them, but they cant attack and hold multiple enemies at once.
2-Any job /thf could kite off JoP and die as well...
3-Good luck means with our C+ Marks you're not going to hit a god damn thing.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 06:28 AM

Steals that do something more than take an item would be nice. Taking an item doesnt help your party. at all.

Broad statement, you don't even know what item I am referring to. If you were able to steal a lower tier drop, that eliminates competition for that item due to the THF getting it and maybe passing it on to other people, or stealing valuable synth materials to craft something for the group, like the voidwatch items. I did suggest steals that do other things though, they were all merely suggestions.

Steals that work on ANYTHING MEANINGFUL (I.E Endgame content, NMs, etc) would be nice too. I would accept them so long as they didnt share timers and actually did something useful.

Agreed

yes, we're fine in Abyssea, another point i brought up in one of my countless posts in this very thread...

I didn't read this whole thread, deal with it. I stated my opinion and I am responding to the responses.

THF can't do any of those things you listed very well outside Abyssea. Have a THF Tank any T3+ Voidwatch NM... My concern isn't about Easy-mode Abyssea. Its Outside of Abyssea that worries me.

As it's current use, it does tank end-game, which is still consisting of Abyssea. You are right, it probably won't for newer end-game, but it has its use in Abyssea.

Because your thoughts seemed to be, judging only your first post "THF is fine you have TH, Give it more Steal and Mug abilities".

Which alone didn't sound very.. intelligent. but the elaboration did help

Was that all that was in my first post? Thought I put enhanced utility and had more steal and efficient mugging as examples...

If you didn't reply the exact moment a post was made, and actually read the post thoroughly you wouldn't have to edit all the time, just sayin'

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 06:29 AM

Except now SE is obsoluting TH...and the change to Voidwatch is garbage for TH. Isnt it like...an extra 2% to light for every level of TH, and some lights go up to 250%?

Its something like 20%? I don't remember, But its only when you Upgrade TH i think... I don't think base TH matters.

I'd have to look it up, Either way its very infrequent and as i said, if anything it just helps mediocre groups cap, and Good groups cap 5% Quicker. if even that

Draylo

07-25-2011, 06:31 AM

Except now SE is obsoluting TH...and the change to Voidwatch is garbage for TH. Isnt it like...an extra 2% to light for every level of TH, and some lights go up to 250%?

So TH is obsolete when it works on 90% of the content, but because 10% doesn't work its useless?

1-The only way a thf is going to get hate on those extra copies that spawn attacking a different target would be to attack them, but they cant attack and hold multiple enemies at once.
2-Any job /thf could kite off JoP and die as well...
3-Good luck means with our C+ Marks you're not going to hit a god damn thing.

1- They can be hit with a ranged attack and kited away from the main party, it was done all the time in the past or did you never use that?
2- Yes but why use a different job when you can use THF who can just come back and place TH on prudence? This also wastes that persons sub job when most people do more than one jailer. Again, it was an EXAMPLE.
3- There is a shitload of RACC gear in the game, in addition to sushi.....

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 06:33 AM

Broad statement, you don't even know what item I am referring to. If you were able to steal a lower tier drop, that eliminates competition for that item due to the THF getting it and maybe passing it on to other people, or stealing valuable synth materials to craft something for the group, like the voidwatch items. I did suggest steals that do other things though, they were all merely suggestions.

Then Elaborate? it helps people understand what you're asking.

I didn't read this whole thread, deal with it. I stated my opinion and I am responding to the responses.

Then don't act all hurt when I say things like "I said this before" or "I've addressed this concern" when you're the one whos too lazy to read the thread. You don't even have to read far, I literally addressed it all on like, the second page. My opinion has changed a bit since then. But i do not feel that is a valid excuse not to read a thread and then expect people who you interract with to not get upset you're basically bringing up and saying things that have already been brought up.

Really, It just bugs me when you say things like "LOL YEW WANT THF BE GOOD AS WARS?!!?" When thats the one thing i constantly try to say I do not want.

As it's current use, it does tank end-game, which is still consisting of Abyssea. You are right, it probably won't for newer end-game, but it has its use in Abyssea.

Again, thats my only concern. Inside Abyssea i feel the job is amazing. Its outside content, where the game is going to go, thats worries me the most, Especially considering their recent "Vision" on the job being an insult.

Was that all that was in my first post? Thought I put enhanced utility and had more steal and efficient mugging as examples...

I was paraphrasing, i admit. Looking over i see TH being useful/amazing, and needing more Steal/Mug abilities. Utility is good too.

If you didn't reply the exact moment a post was made, and actually read the post thoroughly you wouldn't have to edit all the time, just sayin'

Actually, I read it all, And made a small post, then decided i wanted to go more indepth.

Don't assume, Makes you look like an Ass.

Edit:

1- They can be hit with a ranged attack and kited away from the main party, it was done all the time in the past or did you never use that?

No, We used RDM's and Diaga, Like good groups usually do. Only exception is the Jailer you need to flee from.

Edit: I should make it clear....er.... That I agree THF getting some unique Utility would be amazing, But almost all Utility is already "spaced out". THF has really no niche outside of TH left to fill. TH is a good niche, i was just hoping it wouldn't be all we're good for.

Nynja

07-25-2011, 06:41 AM

So TH is obsolete when it works on 90% of the content, but because 10% doesn't work its useless?

1- They can be hit with a ranged attack and kited away from the main party, it was done all the time in the past or did you never use that?
2- Yes but why use a different job when you can use THF who can just come back and place TH on prudence? This also wastes that persons sub job when most people do more than one jailer. Again, it was an EXAMPLE.
3- There is a shitload of RACC gear in the game, in addition to sushi.....

When that 90% of content is outdated and useless, and that other 10% doesnt require it...yeah TH is useless broski.

1-Karb covered it, but to illicit a second response: doing /ra and running isnt exactly "evasion holding", its as you said "doing /ra and running away", which any job can do.
2-Why risk the thf dying and then getting no TH, or having to wait for thf to get up, might as well have the smn/thf do it.
3-So, after all this about talking about how weak thf's damage is, you're going to further hinder yourself by using sushi. high five

Draylo

07-25-2011, 06:41 AM

Then Elaborate? it helps people understand what you're asking.

I did elaborate in the exact post you quoted... jesus.

"Eliminates competition for that item due to the THF getting it and maybe passing it on to other people, or stealing valuable synth materials to craft something for the group, like the voidwatch items."

Then don't act all hurt when I say things like "I said this before" or "I've addressed this concern" when you're the one whos too lazy to read the thread. You don't even have to read far, I literally addressed it all on like, the second page. My opinion has changed a bit since then. But i do not feel that is a valid excuse not to read a thread and then expect people who you interract with to not get upset you're basically bringing up and saying things that have already been brought up.

Don't respond to me then, simple enough. Repeating yourself is so terrible, your fingers must be blistering *rolleyes*

Really, It just bugs me when you say things like "LOL YEW WANT THF BE GOOD AS WARS?!!?" When thats the one thing i constantly try to say I do not want.

Yeah I was asking a question... I think you might have took it the wrong way. I don't attack everyone in every post I make, although it seems like people feel that way on the internet all the time.

Again, thats my only concern. Inside Abyssea i feel the job is amazing. Its outside content, where the game is going to go, thats worries me the most, Especially considering their recent "Vision" on the job being an insult.

I understand that, it was a simple example though. Just like you gave enfeebling for BLM as an example, they don't enfeeble NM's in a party setting, especially in Voidwatch.

No, We used RDM's and Diaga, Like good groups usually do. Only exception is the Jailer you need to flee from.

Why waste the RDM when they can be used for healing or additional nukes? THF would only need to place TH, especially on something as evasive/PD spamming as JoP. Good groups? Last I checked, most good groups used THF just for TH in the past and the RDM dealt with the more important roles like... keeping people alive or contributing to the NMs death through nukes. Another example would be Salvage, the gear train or other areas where a THF sacs, also Dynamis.

Nynja

07-25-2011, 06:43 AM

Last I checked, most good groups used THF just for TH in the past and the RDM dealt with the more important roles like... keeping people alive or contributing to the NMs death through nukes.

rifl ^_^ ufunny

Draylo

07-25-2011, 06:45 AM

When that 90% of content is outdated and useless, and that other 10% doesnt require it...yeah TH is useless broski.

1-Karb covered it, but to illicit a second response: doing /ra and running isnt exactly "evasion holding", its as you said "doing /ra and running away", which any job can do.
2-Why risk the thf dying and then getting no TH, or having to wait for thf to get up, might as well have the smn/thf do it.
3-So, after all this about talking about how weak thf's damage is, you're going to further hinder yourself by using sushi. high five

How do you figure Abyssea is going to be useless.... lol. Empy weapons are useless, you heard it here first everyone.

1- Yeah but the other jobs can have more useful functions, it was a secondary role that THF can perform while not inhibiting efficiency much.
2- How do you figure you won't get TH? It takes time for the second JoP to despawn, enough for the THF to make it back and smack TH on. This was before you can just zerg them both down at 90 cap or the increase TH levels.
3- Again, something you seem to not be getting, it was an example. If THF secondary role is to deal with add control it is a viable option. Pro-Tip, sushi doesn't hinder damage if it enhances acc on something that is evasive like new end game NMs might be.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 06:47 AM

rifl ^_^ ufunny

You must have sucked at RDM then :/

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 06:49 AM

I did elaborate in the exact post you quoted... jesus.

Elaborating before it causes a 2 page debate would be insanity then? Is it hard to flesh out your ideas and explain them in a clear concise way on the first attempt =.=a?. I'm not asking for 20 paragraphs just a little elaboration.

When someone sees more "Steal and mug", they will assume the worst. maybe its a human flaw. but should prepare for it...

"Eliminates competition for that item due to the THF getting it and maybe passing it on to other people, or stealing valuable synth materials to craft something for the group, like the voidwatch items."

So, an ability to steal an Item, of some sort, and transfer it to the pool? Good in theory, As long as it was useful items and worked on NMs. However, It would have to be a different Steal JA, I don't think it would be possible to program something like that into the current steal system.

However you could just trade it at the end? Just make steal work on NMs with unique steal pools and this could be interesting.

Don't respond to me then, simple enough. Repeating yourself is so terrible, your fingers must be blistering *rolleyes*

Read the thread then, Simple enough, taking 15 minutes to educate yourself on the posts in a topic must be so irritating. (roundabout is fair game no?)

Yeah I was asking a question... I think you might have took it the wrong way. I don't attack everyone in every post I make, although it seems like people feel that way on the internet all the time.

Bullcrap, Don't play the victum. I stated my opinion same as you and there was never a single personal insult. There was heat behind my words because I'm passionate about the job, You're as guilty as i am for exacerbating the situation.

Why waste the RDM when they can be used for healing or additional nukes? THF would only need to place TH, especially on something as evasive/PD spamming as JoP. Good groups? Last I checked, most good groups used THF just for TH in the past and the RDM dealt with the more important roles like... keeping people alive or contributing to the NMs death through nukes. Another example would be Salvage, the gear train or other areas where a THF sacs, also Dynamis.

And If im not mistaken almost all groups used RDM or some job with Diaga to sac multiple adds. Odin fight comes to mind. if we wanna talk about "Woulda-coulda-shoulda" you're correct. I'm only going by what was actually done.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 06:50 AM

Perfect example of how people are over the internet... I have one opinion about THF and getting extra utility and people come out of the woodwork just to flame for no reason. HERP DERP I AGREE WIT U BUT WE MUST RGUE ADDING ANY JABS OR PASSIVE AGGRESSIVENESS WE CAN MANAGE.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 06:52 AM

Draylo

07-25-2011, 06:55 AM

So, an ability to steal an Item, of some sort, and transfer it to the pool? Good in theory, As long as it was useful items and worked on NMs. However, It would have to be a different Steal JA, I don't think it would be possible to program something like that into the current steal system.

However you could just trade it at the end? Just make steal work on NMs with unique steal pools and this could be interesting.

Yes, for example, some of the newer items added require synth mats from VNM chests. If a THF had an ability to steal those mats they could be used to synth those new equips for LS members or what have you. Yeah I meant for more steal abilities, basically what I am trying to get at with my opinions is that THF should have more utility in enhancing loot/gil for the collective. Being able to steal certain pieces of gear, or hell make some NM fights different by stealing temp items that can be used to paralyze or terror a mob for x amount of time?

Nynja

07-25-2011, 06:55 AM

It is Draylo were talking to...

Draylo

07-25-2011, 06:56 AM

It is Draylo were talking to...

Meaning? None of your posts in this discussion have been particularly exempt of what I just said.

Nynja

07-25-2011, 06:59 AM

Youre giving examples of what you think thf's secondary roles could be, and they're roles that ARE outshined by other jobs. Saccing? ANYONE can sac, theres no skill or talent involved in "aggro that and run and die far away". The only thing is thf has a greater safety net between flee and evasion, but any job can sac stuff.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 07:01 AM

I know that, you realize other jobs can enfeeble besides BLM? It was in response to carbuncle saying THF only did ONE thing and he listed BLM as doing nuking AND enfeebling. My response was listing things THF can do in addition to that one thing, like he did with BLM. Do people use BLMs as primary enfeeblers? No, they don't. Are they able to fulfill the role to some degree? Yes they can. Same thing applies to what I was talking about with THF.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 07:03 AM

Well, then i should clarify what i meant. we're generally only invited for 1 thing, TH.

Looking back, I can agree we're invited to kill ourselves occasionally, But i try not to think of that as a positive for the job, as it simply speaks louder on how bad the job is that the best use they can determine for outside of TH it is sac-pulling.

Nynja

07-25-2011, 07:06 AM

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 07:08 AM

And for what its worth.

My intent is not to "come out of the woodworks and team up against you" (as i've been posting in this thread since about the time it started, So technically i was here first...), I'm only answering questions/concerns/giving opinions on posts i see i could answer.

Nothing more.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 07:12 AM

And I said that your "other roles" are dumb...atleast blm's have UNIQUE enfeebles as well. And your comment about status bolts is dumb. Even with all the racc gear, bumping C+ up with full racc gear is still probably equivalent to a naked A- weapon.

Does it make sense, at all, that one of the more complex jobs, between the multitude of necessary gear and JA/positional micromanagement still fall behind a "engage & hit WS every 30 seconds" job?

Unique enfeebles... wat? Sleep, stun are unique? The other roles aren't "Dumb" they were used all the damn time. Seriously, you are just trying hard to make my opinion seem invalid or something. People sac pulled with THF all the time. THF was a puller in dynamis, THF is a tank now in Abyssea. They are secondary roles... just quit.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 07:15 AM

I would say he's talking about "Break" but i think RDM gets that. Stun DRK has.. Sleepga/Sleepga II perhaps are technically unique, but Manifesto takes care of that.

Either BLM is still a great Enfeebler. Break/Sleep/Stun, and if /RDM, Gravity/Bind all greatly assist a BLM in certain situations.

Just like THF killing itself.

Nynja

07-25-2011, 07:15 AM

unique as in Break and Sleepga2, regardless of practical utility of Break lol...hmm I thought Break was unique to BLM, I never bothered getting it on any of my chars because it was useless.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 07:16 AM

Break isn't unique, SCH and RDM have it. Sleepga2 can be done with /SCH or SCH main or dream flower.

Insaniac

07-25-2011, 07:16 AM

The only reason THF pulled in dynamis was TH.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 07:16 AM

They gave break away to RDM and SCH :(

Nynja

07-25-2011, 07:19 AM

Break isn't unique, SCH and RDM have it. Sleepga2 can be done with /SCH or SCH main or dream flower.

Cant cast Dream Flower on a moving target 21.5' away...and a stretch, but if the sch is on light arts, the time lost on swapping to dark arts then manifesto could be costly (seeing as how people care about 1% FC reduction, those seconds DO matter)

Draylo

07-25-2011, 07:20 AM

The only reason THF pulled in dynamis was TH.

They also had flee which would be a waste to sub thf on other jobs.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 07:20 AM

Cant cast Dream Flower on a moving target 21.5' away

So move up to it, point was it isn't unique. Jesus, do you ever stop attacking people or defending your opinion? Give up.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 07:22 AM

Regardless rather it was unique or not.. It doesn't change that BLM is still a very adept enfeebler. BLM/RDM is very great at survival. Bind, Gravity, Break, Sleep II, Stun, etc.

But again, I admit THF is really good at killing itself.

Nynja

07-25-2011, 07:24 AM

So move up to it, point was it isn't unique. Jesus, do you ever stop attacking people or defending your opinion? Give up.

You never did a ***/thf dynamis? Live a little, lighten up.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 07:24 AM

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 07:27 AM

You know, How about improvements that boost the aspects of the job you think need improving?

Reduce Steal Timer down to 1 minute timer. Have it inflict Damage, Modded by DEX, Similar to Jumps, and grant TP.

Reduce Despoil to 1 minute, and remove its shared timer, Also give Despoil 100% Chance to inflict an Ailment, Regardless of rather or not an item was stolen: Also add sub-category for it.
*Despoil: Head - Induces head related Ailments. Silence/Amnesia/Blind/M.Acc Down/M.atk down
*Despoil: Body - Induces Body related Ailments. Paralysis/Slow/Attack Down/Defense down
*Depoils: Legs - Induces Leg related Ailments. Gravity/Evasion Down/Accuracy down

This gives you some control over which ailment to inflict. Could even go more indepth.

Mug*
Reduce mug to 2min~3min timer or less. Add "Aura Steal" to mug. Allow Mugging of Cruor.
Allow mug to deal damage, Modded by your DEX, and grant TP. Similar to jumps.

Edit:

New Job ability: (Both Similar to Feint)

Set up
*Enfeebling Magic Cast on the enemy after this JA is activated will gain a Boost in potency.
*3min Recast
*1min duration (or until next hit lands)
*25% boost to enfeebling magic potency/duration

Treachery
*Your next hit will increase the amount of Damage the Enemy takes
*5min Recast
*1min Duration (Or until you land a hit)
*Lasts 3 minutes.
*Enemy takes 10% more damage across the board.

exposure
*Your next hit will decrease the enemies critical hit evasion
*3min recast
*1min Duration (or until next hit is landed)
*Lasts 2 minutes
*Decreases Their Crit.Evasion by 15%

disperse
*Sheds 25% of your current Enmity.
*1min recast
*Useful to use with Collaborator. Allows THF to truly control Enmity.

Frame
*Grants 25% of your enmity to a party member
*1min recast
*Shares timer with Disperse
*Can only be used on someone who has hate on current enemy (I.E you couldn't use it on someone who hasn't acted on the mob, thus MPKing them technically)

Insaniac

07-25-2011, 07:30 AM

They also had flee which would be a waste to sub thf on other jobs.There was almost never a reason to flee in dynamis unless you were sacing.

Nebo

07-25-2011, 07:32 AM

The main problem with THF in this "utility" regard is that our abilities are in conflict.

For example: for most of the game's life, our only enmity manipulation ability was Trick Attack. Trick Attack requires you to deal DAMAGE with it to be useful at all as an enmity tool. Preferably, combined with a weapon skill. To weapon skill, you need to get TP, to get TP you have to melee....etc etc....

Which is in direct conflict with several aspects of THF melee. TP feed due to no native subtle blow, Low attack for high defense HNMS, Lower than average accuracy due to A- Skill, poor DEX/STR to ACC/ATT ratio, no accuracy traits etc.

The only place Trick Attack was ever even remotely useful (HNM level endgame) is where trick attack just so happens to be the weakest.

The only thing we are useful for is Treasure Hunter. People only use THF's over other "tanks" inside abyssea BECAUSE of Treasure hunter. If we didn't have that, there are many, many other jobs better suited to DD tank there.

You cannot have a utility melee job if the melee of that job is not USEFUL. They attempted to adjust this with the TH proc update, but they missed the mark.

You want to know why THF's are whining about "being on WAR level DD?" (Which No one in this threads ever has btw)? I want to know why BLM's can make seals drop better than I can. I want to know why A WAR can make loot rain better than I can with all of their weapon procs.

I want to know why I'm supposed to be the utility loot whore and I'm literally the worst job at it?

No. THF definitely needs a relevant THF utility update. But as a job, it needs to be a DD as well. There is no amount of utility that SE could give us that would amount to much of anything if we weren't a viable melee DD as well.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 07:33 AM

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 07:37 AM

I see how it is, I come to an understanding and now everyone wants to stop posting.

Nynja

07-25-2011, 07:41 AM

Uhhh yeah, these threads dont work with understamding, there must be disorder and chaos, there is no discussion in agreement, only in disagreement.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 07:43 AM

I like the idea of "Disperse" and "Frame", it really fits in their idea of THF at least. It would add a new level of use to Collaborator.

Nynja

07-25-2011, 07:45 AM

I do wish there were a way to drop enmity...Its kinda hard to SA when the mobs facing you because of enmity cap.

SE really should consider restructing their enmity design. If they want PLD's to tank, they really should have a higher enmity cap, and let certain JA or actions bypass it. It shouldnt be "ok youre all capped enmity so I'll just attack whoever has the lowest attack delay since they'll be poking me non stop", when someone drops a 6k WS, it should bypass the enmity cap, if only for a short while.

Insaniac

07-25-2011, 07:45 AM

I'll go through the thread at some point and add peoples suggestions to the OP. I like a lot of your ideas too.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 07:46 AM

If they really want THF to control enmity they have to give us Abilities like that.

Give us an ability to shed a % of our hate, or give it to someone else. This would truly "Control the tides of battle" as SE wants us too.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 08:48 AM

Nynja

07-25-2011, 08:56 AM

Thats awesome utility, really...you just need a mule because at the rate TH goes up, your best bet is to /ra with TH/AA/RP+2 equipped and then afk.

Zyla420

07-25-2011, 08:59 AM

^this

really sick of ppl thinking that TH is so powerful that it completely justifies the rest of the job being mediocre.

Laphine

07-25-2011, 09:01 AM

I like these ideas And i'm not losing them to page spam >:O

You know, How about improvements that boost the aspects of the job you think need improving?

Reduce Steal Timer down to 1 minute timer. Have it inflict Damage, Modded by DEX, Similar to Jumps, and grant TP.

Reduce Despoil to 1 minute, and remove its shared timer, Also give Despoil 100% Chance to inflict an Ailment, Regardless of rather or not an item was stolen: Also add sub-category for it.
*Despoil: Head - Induces head related Ailments. Silence/Amnesia/Blind/M.Acc Down/M.atk down
*Despoil: Body - Induces Body related Ailments. Paralysis/Slow/Attack Down/Defense down
*Depoils: Legs - Induces Leg related Ailments. Gravity/Evasion Down/Accuracy down

This gives you some control over which ailment to inflict. Could even go more indepth.

Mug*
Reduce mug to 2min~3min timer or less. Add "Aura Steal" to mug. Allow Mugging of Cruor.
Allow mug to deal damage, Modded by your DEX, and grant TP. Similar to jumps.

Edit:

New Job ability: (Both Similar to Feint)

Set up
*Enfeebling Magic Cast on the enemy after this JA is activated will gain a Boost in potency.
*3min Recast
*1min duration (or until next hit lands)
*25% boost to enfeebling magic potency/duration

Treachery
*Your next hit will increase the amount of Damage the Enemy takes
*5min Recast
*1min Duration (Or until you land a hit)
*Lasts 3 minutes.
*Enemy takes 10% more damage across the board.

exposure
*Your next hit will decrease the enemies critical hit evasion
*3min recast
*1min Duration (or until next hit is landed)
*Lasts 2 minutes
*Decreases Their Crit.Evasion by 15%

disperse
*Sheds 25% of your current Enmity.
*1min recast
*Useful to use with Collaborator. Allows THF to truly control Enmity.

Frame
*Grants 25% of your enmity to a party member
*1min recast
*Shares timer with Disperse
*Can only be used on someone who has hate on current enemy (I.E you couldn't use it on someone who hasn't acted on the mob, thus MPKing them technically)

I like them too! so i'm copying them as well! lol

But man you are creative, i wish you were a dev lol.

Nynja

07-25-2011, 09:08 AM

I have a question Draylo...your're 3boxing an empryian...what would finish to the lv85 version fastest (lv90 is more difficult to compare since some are just cleave and some are putting your balls in a vice):
Group 1: NIN WAR WHM for KI's, then changing to THF MNK WHM for killing NM's
Group 2: NIN WAR/thf WHM for KI's, then kill NM with the TH3 /thf (Take Dread atma)

Draylo

07-25-2011, 09:22 AM

WAR THF whm. You lose three procs but you can just kill it fast.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 09:24 AM

^this

really sick of ppl thinking that TH is so powerful that it completely justifies the rest of the job being mediocre.

Seriously... I don't even. I use THF all the damn time lol, how is it mediocre. Especially in Abyssea, you people act as if 90% of the game is outside of Abyssea, hint: its not. You don't even know what they are doing.

Draylo

07-25-2011, 09:25 AM

Thats awesome utility, really...you just need a mule because at the rate TH goes up, your best bet is to /ra with TH/AA/RP+2 equipped and then afk.

Not really, I proc plenty of times to TH7~9 in almost every fight.

Alukat

07-25-2011, 09:34 AM

Nynja

07-25-2011, 09:47 AM

WAR THF whm. You lose three procs but you can just kill it fast.

So you waste time killing a NM you wont get KI from, awesome.

Pop Olphanim...darkness weakness...ED fails, SoD fails....attempt to deaggro to change weakness, gets stolen, waste 15 minutes.

Yugl

07-25-2011, 10:20 AM

THF should have a sideline utility rather than a melee focus. Logically, you're either participating in events for loot or XP. The latter has become irrelevant with the introduction of Abyssea. The former only sees two instances that undermine THF's utility (Proc!! situations and coffers/NPCs). Abyssea content that excludes THF (Hint: Not Empyrean Farming) is dwindling. Furthermore, the exclusiveness of proc!!s is not limited to THF, but to many DDs as well. Hence, it is not an issue regarding THF, it is an issue regarding the general mechanics.

BCNMs (And box type events in general) tend to be all inclusive (Meaning, what you bring doesn't matter if your general set up is correct) or exclusive. Everyone tends to suffer in the latter scenario. The former scenario allows for THFs. Even in events such as VW the exclusiveness is not limited to THFs alone.

In all other cases, the most optimum set up is 1x THF to the extent that victory is assured safely and in a timely manner because the goal is loot, not necessarily doing XXXX DMG WS. Anything else is a necessary condition for meeting one of those two criteria. This means other classes are inferior with respect to THF from the outset. Of course, it is rarely the case that one THF alone can safely, and in a timely manner, assure victory. Consequently, we begin to add to this configuration. For all non-WAR DDs, it appears as if their role as physical DD will gradually become suboptimal. For all non-BLM nukers, it appears as if their role will remain suboptimal (Unless SE fixes SCH). For all non-WHM healers, it appears as if their role will remain suboptimal.

Given this scenario, you have to realistically ask to what extent THF's DD potential can remain in balance with further enhancements. For DRG, DRK, and SAM, their only PT role is DD and WAR has monopolized that position. Given this reality, there's not much room for improvement. If THF's damage is slightly less than the other DDs, then is there really going to be a gap between success/speed? If not, then why not just maintain a THF over other DDs and reduce the number of people you have to bring? If you already have a THF, then why not optimize with the best DD (WAR)? That's the problem that most of you fail to recognize. SE has to maintain a gap between THF's DD and suboptimal DD in order to maintain balance.

Ideally, DRG, WAR, MNK, DRK, SAM, NIN, PUP, and so forth will equal offensive and defensive capabilities. However, even if that were the case, you would still need to undermine THF's DD potential. This would ultimately mean THF remains the worst DD and the complaining you see here will continue.

A quick summary before continuing:
* Non-Loot events undermine THF, but they are insignificant because...
1. Abyssea content that excludes THF is dwindling
2. Abyssea Proc!!s exclude many classes, not just THFs
3. BCNMs tend to favor a niche selection of classes or allow for any class to participate

* When drops are concerned, THF is central and all other additions are simply necessities to assure victory
* You need a gap that is enough to not default to THF over other DDs when optimizing
* Other melee DDs tend to be suboptimal to WAR and SE seems to intentionally maintain this balance; hence, THF would need to be less than suboptimal so as to not drive other DDs out of business
* If other melee DDs evened out, maintaining the gap would mean THF defaults to the worst DD and complaining will continue

So when you combine this information, to the extent that TH remains relevant to obtaining gear, THF melee potential must remain less than suboptimal and this is not fixed by making all other melee DDs equal. Hence, it is better to siphon THF towards another form a utility. I doubt enmity is the best direction, but melee certainly is not the path for THF.

Laphine

07-25-2011, 11:12 AM

The main issue and the reason i think THF is broken is because it revolves around a passive trait. A player as THF is completely unnecessary. It's wasted resource. This player would be better off being something that can contribute to the success of the effort at hand. And that's how it always went anyway. A THF would only be assigned if the jobs that mattered were already defined. And really, this is simply just wrong...

When SE implemented the TH boosts, it was certainly a step in the right direction. From then on we kinda gained a reason to actually do something, not simply /ra and afk. Still, these boosts probably only do counter the access to TH2 that everyone can get now. After all, the marginal gain from going from TH2 to TH3 is smaller than TH1 to TH2.

An overhaul to TH is certainly the best gift we can get. This is why i really loved the idea Byrth proposed somewhere back in this thread. If TH were to become proportional to our performance, it would actually matter being a good THF. LSs would go after their best THF, not some gimp ass that luckily has TH6. The concept of TH mule would drop dead too.

Of course, when we tie TH to the THF damage like he proposed, it makes no sense that we don't get a DD boost lol.

Insaniac

07-25-2011, 01:02 PM

The real issue here is that every job capable of physical damage output has had their potential significantly raised by either JTs or JAs or a combo of the 2. THF has gotten a level of DW surpassed by /nin (may not be the case at 99) and critical bonus. The balance gap that you are talking about has been widened to an unbalanced level. No one in this entire thread has asked for THF to be as powerful a DD as jobs who's only utility is dealing damage but something to give us a real reason to pull out our daggers other than pure boredom would be lovely.

Byrth

07-25-2011, 01:23 PM

When I do the math on SA vs. Climactic Flourish, I get that SA is better pretty much all the time. I know I've done pretty significant Climactic Flourish'd Rudra's to stuff. So you wouldn't actually need a DD buff to make the idea I propose here (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=1310416442266022552&h=50&p=3#124)viable. The problem is that you guys don't often get a chance to use the mechanics of your jobs, SA and TA. That problem would be taken care of by changing the TH system to what I described.

Fringe benefits:
1) As content gets outdated, THF max damage rises and drop rates effectively are increased.
2) Having relic/mythic/empyrean weapons primarily boost your single-hit SA/TA WS damage, which would also boost your Treasure Hunter through this system. Mandau > Thief's Knife. Heck, Oneiros Knife or X's Knife > Thief's Knife offhand.
3) People start playing with playstyle focused around THF mechanics. They actually set up SATAWS situations, because that gets the highest THF damage and the highest drop rate.
4) As long as you make it only spike damage that matters, THF doesn't become the only melee. Dragoon, for instance, would get a sideways HNM buff from this because Angon would be useful for improving THF damage. People will do anything in the pursuit of loot.

Insaniac

07-25-2011, 02:07 PM

I think your idea could work to get THF more involved in the fights but only if it was a cumulative. I didn't see where you specify but I assume since you say "The highest tiers of TH would be unobtainable on anything notable." that you would want it to be based off of a single WS. No group of people I have ever played with would put forth the effort to set up perfect WS conditions for a THF more than twice in a fight. I think your idea is headed in the right direction but that alone wouldn't really make THF that much more fun to play in any real HNM/endgame situations.

Yugl

07-25-2011, 02:54 PM

No one in this entire thread has asked for THF to be as powerful a DD as jobs who's only utility is dealing damage but something to give us a real reason to pull out our daggers other than pure boredom would be lovely.

That's exactly why you're going to keep complaining. Anything they give, that maintains less than suboptimal DD damage, will be underwhelming.

When I do the math on SA vs. Climactic Flourish, I get that SA is better pretty much all the time. I know I've done pretty significant Climactic Flourish'd Rudra's to stuff. So you wouldn't actually need a DD buff to make the idea I propose here (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=1310416442266022552&h=50&p=3#124)viable. The problem is that you guys don't often get a chance to use the mechanics of your jobs, SA and TA. That problem would be taken care of by changing the TH system to what I described.

Fringe benefits:
1) As content gets outdated, THF max damage rises and drop rates effectively are increased.
2) Having relic/mythic/empyrean weapons primarily boost your single-hit SA/TA WS damage, which would also boost your Treasure Hunter through this system. Mandau > Thief's Knife. Heck, Oneiros Knife or X's Knife > Thief's Knife offhand.
3) People start playing with playstyle focused around THF mechanics. They actually set up SATAWS situations, because that gets the highest THF damage and the highest drop rate.
4) As long as you make it only spike damage that matters, THF doesn't become the only melee. Dragoon, for instance, would get a sideways HNM buff from this because Angon would be useful for improving THF damage. People will do anything in the pursuit of loot.

The two issues I see with your idea when looking at the complaints in this thread is that:
1. THF still remains nothing more than TH (Optimization on spike damage)
2. Against difficult foes, the value of maintaining a THF actually diminishes
3. That's not really a melee buff
4. Although you suggest spike damage wouldn't encourage "THF Only" when possible, it actually does because in situations where you can win while maintaining only THFs, you're better off solely using THF to increase drop rates. One, since THF spike damage is the only form of damage capable of imposing those TH bumps, you will want most or all of your spike damage to come from THFs. Two, having only THFs cuts down on the NoiseDOT:THSpike ratio, so you conserve HP for spike damage. Three, in grossly divergent situations (Behemoth, for example), THFs will actually be inclined to reduce their TP damage.

Insaniac

07-25-2011, 05:14 PM

That's exactly why you're going to keep complaining. Anything they give, that maintains less than suboptimal DD damage, will be underwhelming.THF has a ton of room to grow before it threatens to overtake the pure DD jobs. I don't think there has been a single suggestion in this thread that would bring THF even close to top tier DD damage and any one of them would make us happy.

Yugl

07-25-2011, 06:19 PM

THF has a ton of room to grow before it threatens to overtake the pure DD jobs. I don't think there has been a single suggestion in this thread that would bring THF even close to top tier DD damage and any one of them would make us happy.

I don't know why you keep using terms such as "Top Tier DD" when the concern is whether they're even on par with suboptimal DDs. Using the examples posted earlier, one is an oddly placed enfeebling skill (Which goes with what I'm saying about taking THF away from the melee scene), one skill is potentially more powerful than Angon, Critical Evasion doesn't make much sense given that critical hit rate is a function of dDEX+Merits+Base+Gear, and the last deal with enmity, which is one of the major complaints about these updates. Also, I think you meant to say that the ideas make *you* happy.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 07:19 PM

I don't know why you keep using terms such as "Top Tier DD" when the concern is whether they're even on par with suboptimal DDs. Using the examples posted earlier, one is an oddly placed enfeebling skill (Which goes with what I'm saying about taking THF away from the melee scene), one skill is potentially more powerful than Angon, Critical Evasion doesn't make much sense given that critical hit rate is a function of dDEX+Merits+Base+Gear, and the last deal with enmity, which is one of the major complaints about these updates. Also, I think you meant to say that the ideas make *you* happy.

On the critical hit Evasion part.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Oirandori - From what i understands, Its basically "Critical hit rate +x%" for people in range.

1) Enhances the Enfeeble of the target. COR can do this too with Quick shot, So its not far fetched to think THF could do something similar. Effects could stack for more bonus. It would give a THF meaning to the fight after the inflicted the mob with TH. Something that would enhance/help the party.

2) That Ability would also Stack with Angon, So it wouldn't outclass the DRG, because both effects would help greatly. It still would not create Zerg windows because most new mobs have immunity/build Immunity to stun and have very powerful AoEs that will wreck a group. SE has shown they can create mobs that aren't zerg Friendly (Damage absorbtion, Mobs like Rani (Charmga, Resistance building, Meteor every xxx%), Etc etc.

I think it would be another great tool for the job

3) The enmity ones I tried to make because i know its where SE wants THF. Which i don't mind if its done correctly. There should be a 50% Equivalant for both similar to Accomp/coll. But i think Accompl/those new ones should be lowered to 3 minutes. 5 minutes is way to restricting when it comes to an endgame fight.

Zyla420

07-25-2011, 09:09 PM

Seriously... I don't even. I use THF all the damn time lol, how is it mediocre. Especially in Abyssea, you people act as if 90% of the game is outside of Abyssea, hint: its not. You don't even know what they are doing.
it's not inside abyssea that's the problem... as it's been said to death already, figured ya'll would get the hint already we're fine with abyssea. it's outside abyssea that is an issue, we don't want to see the days where we're hitting for 0-10 on hnm content. this will equate to us hitting the mob once then finding a corner to sit and cry in like we did years ago...

inside abyssea yea we're near godly, just like every other job but pld. outside abyssea thf is a mediocre dd at best with a shit ton of useless utility. you can sit here and argue all you like that i'm wrong, but when the vast majority of the thf community seem to share the same opinion that i do, that gives me the inclination that i'm correct sir.

Byrth

07-25-2011, 10:09 PM

That's exactly why you're going to keep complaining. Anything they give, that maintains less than suboptimal DD damage, will be underwhelming.

The two issues I see with your idea when looking at the complaints in this thread is that:
1. THF still remains nothing more than TH (Optimization on spike damage)
2. Against difficult foes, the value of maintaining a THF actually diminishes
3. That's not really a melee buff
4. Although you suggest spike damage wouldn't encourage "THF Only" when possible, it actually does because in situations where you can win while maintaining only THFs, you're better off solely using THF to increase drop rates. One, since THF spike damage is the only form of damage capable of imposing those TH bumps, you will want most or all of your spike damage to come from THFs. Two, having only THFs cuts down on the NoiseDOT:THSpike ratio, so you conserve HP for spike damage. Three, in grossly divergent situations (Behemoth, for example), THFs will actually be inclined to reduce their TP damage.

Well:
1) I think that's fine. That's pretty blatantly SE's opinion of what THF should be. SE thinks THF = TH + whining
2) If you're fighting difficult foes, you want the drops that much more and it becomes harder to obtain higher and higher tiers of TH. The value of a good THF increases, the value of a THF mule decreases.
3) I didn't claim it was, and I didn't claim THF needs one.
4) In a certain sense that's true, but in a certain sense that's already true. CoP Dynamis monsters die so quickly that players should split up and take multiple monsters on the pull to avoid disengage/re-engage time wasted. As such, you should really be doing CoP Dynamis with nothing but a bunch of Thieves already. On things with big HP pools, I don't think it would take a THF very long to hit their "best tier" and people to just say, "Okay, trash it." The ranges I gave for that were pretty large. If a THF can take out 15% of an HNM's HP in a full-hits WS, it seems unlikely that they're going to be able to take out 20%. Or if something has 700 Defense, it seems unlikely THF could expect to better their best (on something with 700 Defense) by another 700 damage. Behemoth, for instance, would perhaps encourage the THF to lower their TP phase damage, but if they're aiming to do huge damage with their WSs then they only get a few shots anyway. It wouldn't slow down the fights that much, and I'd have to laugh at people doing Behemoth with a full alliance these days. Minor difference in playstyle. Two melee + mage vs. two melee + mage that are actually using SATA.

If you want to be more inclusive, you can have TH be determined by the total value of any skillchain including the THF, and added MB damage. People would start using, "I wanted the drop, but I didn't have 16 BLM friends to help me" as an excuse though.

Also, I don't really understand why you guys keep saying that people wouldn't accommodate the THF if this system was implemented. If being a THF (or seeing horrible TH4 Thieves get LS invites back in the day) has taught you anything at all, it should be that people will do ANYTHING to slightly increase their drop rates. If this change was implemented, the game would become THF mechanism centered overnight.

Karbuncle

07-25-2011, 10:35 PM

And for the record, someone stating we wouldn't be happy with a small damage boost. If they gave us Dual Wield III~IV, and Maybe Triple Attack II (10%) I would be very much happy with it in terms of our "DD" boost.

As far as helping us with TH, I don't want it. If we get buffs at this point I'd like it to be away from TH. TH is fine as is, the only improvements i could think of is drastically raising the chance to upgrade TH with SA and TA.

If we're going to have to deal with being a TH whore, and Enmity controller, I'd like to expand on our Support role at this point. I don't mean buffs to our existing support, i mean adding more meaningful buffs that help the party as a whole.

I've already listed a few, and i can't think of more than those. They gave SCH Enmity+ and Enmity- Spells which in my mind quite literally contradicts the idea of THF controlling enmity, But at the same time it raises a good idea for some JA That fall right in line with SE's vision.

-----

Job Ability:
Prevents the Target from generating Enmity for a short period.
*Recast: 2minutes
*Duration: 15 Seconds
*Target will not generate any CE or VE for his actions for duration of the ability.

Job Ability:
Stops Enmity decay on Target for a short time
*Recast: 2minutes
*Duration: 30 Seconds
*Targets CE and VE will not drop during this period.

----------------------------------------------

How about some more fun gimmicky things?

Job Trait:
Increases success rate of Steal, Despoil, and Lock Picking
THF-20/40/60/80
*Increase Success rate of each by 5% per level.

Job Trait:
Increases Potency of Despoil Effects
THF:91/96
Increases Despoil Potency by 5% per effect per level. (this would go great with the despoil suggestions i listed pages back)

(This ones considering the suggestion i made a while back would come into the game)

Job Trait
Increases TP gain and damage of Steal and Mug.
*35/50/75/90
Increases TP Gain by 3, and Damage by 3%.
*More into this^. a THF's average dagger hit is about 5TP, Using Steal/Mug would give THF 5TP, at level 90 it would give 17TP. The timer i suggested be set at 1min(steal) and ~3min(Mug). The Damage of Steal/Mug would be modified by DEX. Similar to Jumps. (note THFs would still do much less damage than Jumps, due to low base weapon dmg)

-----------------------------

Some of these would help party situations, Some of them help our Damage a bit, i think it would help THF become a more defined role in group setting outside of simply "Making loot drop".

Smush

07-25-2011, 10:52 PM

I used Kinematics excel-Spreedsheet to put my thf setup to a Ukon war setup to see how big the gap is OUT of abyssea i used the stats of Bukhis because thos are known stats and im sure new HNM's will be very simuler. Also this is /war which is all we have atm outside to do good on HNM with stats like this and when i put it in spreedsheet it came up abit better then /nin i also used red curry.

THF:

Results Set 1

Target Bukhis SA Dmg 524
Level 101 SA Round Dmg 0
pDif Correction 0.55
Defense 560 TA Dmg 418
Dia II? 1 TA Round Dmg 0
Final Def 504
Evasion 430 Melee damage per round 101
Vit 110
Agi 100 Damage per second (total melee) 29.092

WS Dmg 0
SA WS Dmg 2097
Over-TP Rnds: 0.5 TA WS Dmg 1814
Avg SATA Dly: 5
Norm Cycle Time 0.000
SAWS Cycle Time 2099.995
TAWS Cycle Time 2099.820
Leftover Cycle Time 0.000

Norm Cycle Dmg 0.000
SAWS Cycle Dmg 3028.212
TAWS Cycle Dmg 2745.131
Leftover Cycle Dmg 0.000

Total Dmg 5773.344

Overall DPS 96.222

WAR:

Target Defbuffed: Level Corr: Food:
Level 97 Red C Bun
Defense 560 504 0.35
Evasion 430 430
Agi 92
Vit 91

Crit merits: 5%
OAT rate: 0%
Over-TP Rnds: 0.5 Hasso1

-Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Total Dmg 2560 3122
TP/hit:
Round Dly 482 482 13.0
Magic Haste 0% 0%
JA Haste 10% 10%
Gear Haste 25% 25%
Total Haste 35% 35%
Min Dly 96.4 96.4
Haste Dly 313.30 313.30
Total Dly 1799 1799

DPS 85.384 104.132
Avg DPS: 98.883

Also this is with no outside buff which might changes things alot but most times im used to just having haste on most DD's but from what i can gather if a thf subs war on a high lvl nm thfs dps is good enough to melee and this is with DW2 so it will be better once we get that upgraded.

I still agree with Karbuncle and everyone that thinks we need a boost in both dmg and utility but i think with the ability to sub /war we are not that bad atm outside abyssea
and i didnt think we was that bad before when we just subbed nin

the link to the spreedsheets: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=10&mid=1302591885208714538
its real easy to use so you guys should check it out.

Note my thf setup is pretty good also i have lvl 90twash.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/224267 ws set

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/202340 tp set

Byrth

07-25-2011, 11:04 PM

If you guys want to be DDs, you should really play another job. THF hasn't gotten a real DD buff since Assassin.

Laphine

07-25-2011, 11:47 PM

If you guys want to be DDs, you should really play another job. THF hasn't gotten a real DD buff since Assassin.
That's kinda part of the problem too lol. Well, not problem, but the reason we are whining. Most of us here is playing thf for this long, and seeing no real change to our dd aspect year after year is just sad ;; (receiving mostly useless JAs also complements this)

Nynja

07-25-2011, 11:49 PM

2) If you're fighting difficult foes, you want the drops that much more and it becomes harder to obtain higher and higher tiers of TH. The value of a good THF increases, the value of a THF mule decreases.

I'm pretty sure my thf isnt a mule...and their attempt at being able to melee to raise TH was a step in the right direction, but a bad one. When the KS99/kings was new, I fought a NQ behemoth in an attempt to raise TH as high as possible. Heres what happened after 30 minutes of a non-stop SA/TA battle, since SE stated that SA/TA attacks would have a higher chance of raising TH:

[02:23:17]Nynja is no longer quickened.
[02:23:19]The Behemoth misses Nynja.
[02:23:31]Nynja scores a critical hit!
[02:23:31]The Behemoth takes 563 points of damage.
[02:23:32]Additional effect: Treasure Hunter effectiveness against the Behemoth increases to 6. (oops forgot to hit /ra, should have started at 6 and raised to 7)
[02:27:02]Nynja hits the Behemoth for 105 points of damage.
[02:27:02]Additional effect: Treasure Hunter effectiveness against the Behemoth increases to 7.
[02:29:31]Nynja scores a critical hit!
[02:29:31]The Behemoth takes 591 points of damage.
[02:29:31]Additional effect: Treasure Hunter effectiveness against the Behemoth increases to 8.
[02:34:06]Nynja hits the Behemoth for 80 points of damage.
[02:34:06]The Behemoth misses Nynja.
[02:34:06]Additional effect: Treasure Hunter effectiveness against the Behemoth increases to 9.
[02:36:46]Nynja hits the Behemoth for 53 points of damage.
[02:36:46]Additional effect: Treasure Hunter effectiveness against the Behemoth increases to 10.
[02:48:24]Nynja defeats the Behemoth.
[02:48:24]Nynja gains 31 limit points.
[02:48:24]Nynja obtains 10,104 gil.
[02:48:24]yYou find a Thundercloud on the Behemoth.
[02:48:24]yYou find a behemoth hide on the Behemoth.
[02:48:24]yYou find a behemoth hide on the Behemoth.

For 12 minutes I was fighting exclusively with SA/TA, and I couldnt get a TH+ proc, the only reason I stopped was because it ran out of HP.

I understand raising TH to levels like 20 and 30 might not make sense, but I did EVERYTHING I could to raise TH, and still failed to get the drop I really wanted. Which basically makes me think "just get the initial TH6, and hope for the best, because a rare drop is still going to go to the garbage players"

Nebo

07-25-2011, 11:56 PM

If you guys want to be DDs, you should really play another job. THF hasn't gotten a real DD buff since Assassin.

That is not really true.

Native Dual Wield, Critical Attack Bonus since the level cap. The dagger base damage buff was post assassin as well if I'm not mistaken.

Most of our Group one and two Merits are DD merits.

THF getting on Homam, Heca, salvage gear at 75 etc. Look at the stats on our AF3+2 gear, it is heavily DD centered. It gives a few buffs to some of our utility stuff, but for the most part, it is DD gear. And damn good DD gear at that.

To say that THF is not a DD is simply not correct. I do not think THF should be the "best" DD or a "Heavy DD" or whatever terms I've seen floating around this discussion.

But THF most certainly is a DD job.

Byrth

07-25-2011, 11:59 PM

Yeah, they implemented it in a stupid way and gave you the equivalent of "TH3+10" instead of "TH13"

I don't know how much TH+1 is even worth. It's probably not 1% to the base rate, which would have a large effect on low drop rate items, because the "level system" would have made this incredibly obvious. Ridill drop rate +10% before applying TH levels would have increased its drop rate something like 6 times. If you let the TH/damage relationship determine the effective "trait level" then you get a system that isn't batshit retarded. WSing for more damage gets you TH4 or 5, and your drop rate goes up 30% instead of 10% while you kill the monster faster.

Also, we don't know how TH affects slots with multiple potential drops.

And I could be wrong, but I thought Assassin was added after group 2 merits. It was certainly after group 1 merits. Native Dual Wield will always be a joke if you can get better through sub. Your only group 2 merit that's a pure damage buff is Assassin's Charge, which is somewhat wasted given the high fTP of Dagger WSs.

Crit Attack Bonus is a DD buff, but everyone and their mom got hit with it. You guys actually ended up lower than most of the other jobs that get the trait because your AF3+2 didn't include any enhancements. DNC gets +5 from AF3 ammo. WAR gets +10 from AF3+2 feet. DRG gets +10 from AF3+2 legs.

In fact, your AF3+2 kind of points this out. SA/Collaborator/Accomplice enhancement. Augments Despoil/Conspirator. TH+1. It certainly has melee stats on it, but the special effects are 1-for-5 on being DD-related.

SE has a role in mind for you, but it's not as a "great" damage source. It's "a damage source that comes with TH and a few JAs."

Insaniac

07-26-2011, 02:36 AM

I don't know why you keep using terms such as "Top Tier DD" when the concern is whether they're even on par with suboptimal DDs. Using the examples posted earlier, one is an oddly placed enfeebling skill (Which goes with what I'm saying about taking THF away from the melee scene), one skill is potentially more powerful than Angon, Critical Evasion doesn't make much sense given that critical hit rate is a function of dDEX+Merits+Base+Gear, and the last deal with enmity, which is one of the major complaints about these updates. Also, I think you meant to say that the ideas make *you* happy.I feel like you are skimming. The theme permeating this entire thread (to put it into your words) is "We want to be sub suboptimal instead of sub sub sub optimal." Almost all of us have predicated, while making our suggestions, that we don't want to be on the same level as WAR or any "top tier DD". We accepted that role when we leveled the job but I promise you no one who mains THF leveled it to fill the roll it's filling now in post-abyssea content. I completely understand the balance gap you are talking about but I also understand, having mained THF for 7 years now, that this gap has widened and become unbalanced.

And, no, I meant *Us*. It's clear to me after having read every post in this thread and the THF subforum and speaking with multiple THFs in game that all most of us want is a little DD love.

Yugl

07-26-2011, 03:39 AM

1) Enhances the Enfeeble of the target. COR can do this too with Quick shot, So its not far fetched to think THF could do something similar. Effects could stack for more bonus. It would give a THF meaning to the fight after the inflicted the mob with TH. Something that would enhance/help the party.

2) That Ability would also Stack with Angon, So it wouldn't outclass the DRG, because both effects would help greatly. It still would not create Zerg windows because most new mobs have immunity/build Immunity to stun and have very powerful AoEs that will wreck a group. SE has shown they can create mobs that aren't zerg Friendly (Damage absorbtion, Mobs like Rani (Charmga, Resistance building, Meteor every xxx%), Etc etc.

1. COR is a support class, but I don't see the ability as necessarily problematic anyways.
2. That's not necessarily true though. Remember that from an optimization standpoint, you want to limit the number of people you bring to the point where it's the difference between safe victory and a risk. By your logic, if the buff stacks with others, the class using the buff will not eclipse other classes. Consequently, if berserk+retaliation+WAR'sNewCritMove+Angon+LR+Blood Weapon+SE+Mighty Strikes stack with other buffs and do not overwrite other's debuffs, a melee having access to all of that wouldn't eclipse competing melee. I'm not sure that's necessarily the case.

Well:
1) I think that's fine. That's pretty blatantly SE's opinion of what THF should be. SE thinks THF = TH + whining
2) If you're fighting difficult foes, you want the drops that much more and it becomes harder to obtain higher and higher tiers of TH. The value of a good THF increases, the value of a THF mule decreases.
3) I didn't claim it was, and I didn't claim THF needs one.

Yes, I know you didn't say that. I'm saying that's the general spirit of this thread. "Do not make our abilities depend on PT members", "Give us melee enhancements", and "Do not give us enmity abilities" seems to be the slogan of the thread. Hence, why I'm saying even your suggestion wouldn't satisfy the angry mob. However, I think we both agree that melee is not the general direction for THF.

4) In a certain sense that's true, but in a certain sense that's already true. CoP Dynamis monsters die so quickly that players should split up and take multiple monsters on the pull to avoid disengage/re-engage time wasted. As such, you should really be doing CoP Dynamis with nothing but a bunch of Thieves already. On things with big HP pools, I don't think it would take a THF very long to hit their "best tier" and people to just say, "Okay, trash it." The ranges I gave for that were pretty large. If a THF can take out 15% of an HNM's HP in a full-hits WS, it seems unlikely that they're going to be able to take out 20%. Or if something has 700 Defense, it seems unlikely THF could expect to better their best (on something with 700 Defense) by another 700 damage. Behemoth, for instance, would perhaps encourage the THF to lower their TP phase damage, but if they're aiming to do huge damage with their WSs then they only get a few shots anyway. It wouldn't slow down the fights that much, and I'd have to laugh at people doing Behemoth with a full alliance these days. Minor difference in playstyle. Two melee + mage vs. two melee + mage that are actually using SATA.

On one hand, if THF quickly hits a TH cap, I can see your idea working out. It would anger the people in this thread to the extent that they're told to go afk afterwards. On the other hand, if not, then it's better to maintain THFs because it's easier to maintain a stream of SA (Since in instances where THF has hate, he cannot SA, but if two THFs are on the mob, they can rotate SA at least). I also agree that THFOnry happens already to an extent (Behemoth was the primary example in my last post; THF + Healer (Optional tbh).

Also, I don't really understand why you guys keep saying that people wouldn't accommodate the THF if this system was implemented. If being a THF (or seeing horrible TH4 Thieves get LS invites back in the day) has taught you anything at all, it should be that people will do ANYTHING to slightly increase their drop rates. If this change was implemented, the game would become THF mechanism centered overnight.

I think the system already accommodates THF where relevan. The only reason people think otherwise is because of the introduction of proc!! system that undermines, but doesn't replace THF (Evident if you fight mobs with rare blue!! drops).

Tokiro

07-26-2011, 05:04 AM

In my defense Enhanced Triple Attack and Dual wield fall in line with enhanced Damage :\
True enough. I wasn't trying to show you up, just summarize comments. What I meant to say was they weren't all out on increasing the direct damage stats on daggers. Most people seemed to want increases through abilities and conditions that make THF fun to play. Just turning it into "SuperThief - The Revenge" was not on their list of priorities.

Karbuncle

07-26-2011, 05:07 AM

True enough. I wasn't trying to show you up, just summarize comments. What I meant to say was they weren't all out on increasing the direct damage stats on daggers. Most people seemed to want increases through abilities and conditions that make THF fun to play. Just turning it into "SuperThief - The Revenge" was not on their list of priorities.

I assure you, It was not our priority either :x

Given some time to think I could like THF as a support/DD/TH-whore so long as they did it right and updated a lot of our JAs.

Babekeke

07-26-2011, 05:18 AM

Bind, Gravity, Break SLeep don't work on most End game NMs. Stun, I will give you that. The point I am making is THF does have more than one role available besides TH whore, if you don't use that secondary role it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I never use BLM to enfeeble when I have a RDM.

What everyone seems to have missed here are the 6 words: Burn, Choke, Frost, Drown, Rasp and Shock. Maybe because none of you are Taru, idk, but at level 75 I had a 150 INT build on my BLM which gave -13 to enemy's stat, and 5 hp/tick DoT damage, and you can stack 3 of them (sometimes only 2, depending on enemy's resistant elements). Now at 90 and inside abyssea I hit 250 INT (without food or buffs from any other players). I haven't seen any evidence of there being higher tiers of these spells, but if there are... I'm there.

THAT is a primary example of using a BLM to both nuke AND enfeeble, where a RDM, WHM, BRD, DRK etc don't get the same ability. 2 pages of arguing this, and everyone missed this?!

Sorry to bring it up again, it was 3-5 pages ago, but I was at work for that argument.

Also at Draylo - I really don't care about anything that you say in this thread after reading the comment "I haven't read this whole thread, deal with it".
If I come in to a thread on page ~12 or whatever, I'll at least read the first 2 and last 2 pages. Then, when I comment, I'll start with "I'm sorry if this has already been covered, but it's a long thread and it would take me forever to read it all".
Your comment was just rude, and insulting to everyone who posted here.

Insaniac

07-26-2011, 05:40 AM

True enough. I wasn't trying to show you up, just summarize comments. What I meant to say was they weren't all out on increasing the direct damage stats on daggers. Most people seemed to want increases through abilities and conditions that make THF fun to play. Just turning it into "SuperThief - The Revenge" was not on their list of priorities.
Toriko, there's a Com.Rep. reply on the JP THF thread. If you could translate that for us it would be super amazing.

Camate

07-26-2011, 06:25 AM

Howdy! We spoke to the development team about your feedback on thief and they provided some commentary. The below is a compilation of responses to both the English and Japanese suggestions/feedback. Hopefully it will give you a better idea of what is planned for thief in the future.

With the large amount of job adjustment discussion going on we have A LOT of feedback to sort through, so while this might not answer every single thing being discussed at the moment, we will try our best to update when we can. Likewise, we will be making our rounds to other job related threads as well!

So, without further ado…

Instead of increasing the chances of successfully executing Steal and Despoil, can you actually add some attractive items to monsters for us to target?

By adding attractive items to monsters, we fear that it would be re-creating the scenario from the past regarding beastcoins (stealing and then hiding right after), making this pretty difficult to implement. If there were a good countermeasure for this it could work, but currently revamping or adding items to monsters is quite difficult.

Steal has no effect on notorious monsters…

That’s what Aura Steal is for! The effects stolen by Aura Steal are essentially the raw stats that the monster possesses.

Make Aura Steal its own ability.

We believe making Aura Steal a separate ability would be over-powered. If we did do this, it’s likely that its use on notorious monsters would be removed and it would have even less of an effect than it does now.

Add Aura Steal to Despoil as well.

Though we haven’t decided if it will be Aura Steal or not, we do have some rough plans for adding some kind of additional effect to Despoil.

Split up the recast timers for Steal and Despoil.

We are looking into separating the two. However, we are close to reaching a point where there are too many recast timers going on simultaneously, so this isn't something we can implement right away.

With ranger getting Treasure Hunter, dancer getting Triple Attack, and warrior having critical hits, I feel like all of thief’s big selling points have been taken away by other jobs.

While thieves possess superior stats for all of the above, we do understand your concerns. I apologize that I can’t go into detail about specific abilities, but we are planning to make adjustments so that thieves are really able to shine.

Add Subtle Blow to thief.

Due to the fact that normal attacks now increase the effects of Treasure Hunter, we chose to forgo the addition of Subtle Blow as a trade off.

I really hope that the new ability that complements Sneak Attack and Trick Attack is not on a shared recast timer with one of the two abilities.

Don’t worry, it will be separate!

Insaniac

07-26-2011, 06:34 AM

Thank you for the translation, Camate! And thank you for stopping by the thread.

Alaik

07-26-2011, 06:39 AM

Is it bad that I reread that, then reread it again, then checked to see if it was in a job forum, THEN got hit with shock?

I believe most players disagree with the idea that a dispel/low chance buff-steal on a 5 minute timer would be broken, but even if aura steal was a seperate ability on a 1 minute timer, it's not like it would fix us.

Otherwise vague, but way more specific than I had hoped.

I understand you guys can't give an exact "New JA/JT/etc" layout because stuff changes, hasn't been fully thought through yet, etc. However, I believe I can say without a doubt every THF that plays THF for anything more than "Tag TH, go read a book." thanks you immensely for at least acknowledging our feedback.

Nebo

07-26-2011, 07:43 AM

I want to thank you, Camate, and the development team for taking the time to attempt to address our concerns.

I am really at a loss for words on some of these responses. I am very sorry that this is going to sound disrespectful because this is most certainly not my intention.

But it really does feel that the developement team is very out of touch with the difficulties that the job faces and the actual utility of the unique abilities that THF has left.

Due to the fact that normal attacks now increase the effects of Treasure Hunter, we chose to forgo the addition of Subtle Blow as a trade off.

This, specifically, worries me greatly. What the treasure hunter melee update has done is create a situation where the mechanics of how the THF job functions are in direct contradiction.

We are supposed to be engaging the monster to enhance treasure hunter? OK. But with A) the extremely low proc rate on Treasure Hunter for melee swings, and B) the sheer amount of TP we feed to high level Notorious Monsters, this has simply created a situation where THF will not be allowed to engage and forced simply to Sneak Attack and Trick Attack the Monster as timers allow while disengaged. Even with subtle blow gear, it is not worth it for a THF to engage for the purpose of Treasure hunter procs on normal attacks.

And quite honestly....I can see no visible difference between treasure hunter effectiveness level 6 and treasure hunter effectiveness level 13. How about throw us a bone and actually TELL us what it does? (I know, I know....what a crazy idea.)

By adding attractive items to monsters, we fear that it would be re-creating the scenario from the past regarding beastcoins (stealing and then hiding right after), making this pretty difficult to implement. If there were a good countermeasure for this it could work, but currently revamping or adding items to monsters is quite difficult.

This kind of reply makes me think that no one on the Dev Team has ever tested or played THF to know why this won;t work. The dev team removed the possibility for this tactic to work a very long time ago. For 1) Hide doesn't work on much of anything at all (thanks for that btw). 2) After this adjustment, you can only steal from a monster once and then you need to kill and respawn it to be able to steal again.

You must understand the frustration here. The developement team has taken so much from us in this area without giving anything to fill that void. The adjustment to steal to address the gold coin situation, the removal of valuable items from treasure coffers, the phasing out of Mug by refusing to give any new monsters any gil to steal, etc.

I understand this is a difficult issue, but the idea that seperating aurasteal from steal would be overpowered? Especially given that they are tied to a (needlessly long)5 minute recast timer? I don't understand that logic. They are completely seperate abilities with completely seperate functions that, because of the way they were combined, are often in contradiction with each other.

Seperating Aurasteal would not make it overpowered. The fact that it is tied to a 5 minute recast timer AND combined with Steal make it severely underpowered as a 75+ job ability. What seperating them would do is give us our very first steal ability that was acutally useful for its function.

I don't understand this need for the development team to sort of, kind of, almost give THF something that is useful. And then completely kill its relevance with either a needlessly long/shared recast timer or really messed up functionality. There is nothing about THF right now that is even remotely close to thinking about the possibility of being overpowered. Really? REALLY? It would be Overpowered!? THAT is your reason? Are you kidding me with this?

Though we haven’t decided if it will be Aura Steal or not, we do have some rough plans for adding some kind of additional effect to Despoil.

Adding things to Despoil is not going to fix Despoil. The ability itself really needs to be taken a look at and reconsidered. The items that despoil steals are of no use to anyone at this point in the game's lifespan. Adding Despoil as a post-75 level cap ability really accentuates the serious disconnect between the playerbase and the Developement team. I really don't think they understand how taxed our inventory is....that aurasteal and despoil both require you to have inventory space to even attempt to take advantage of their effects

But even the fact that Despoil attempts to steal an item as a requsite for its enfeebling effect to occur is useless at this stage in FFXI's lifespan. The variability of that enfeebling effect, should the steal be a success, is useless in any situation you would want to enfeeble any enemy. A variable enfeebling effect on a 5 minute timer is really quite useless. But most importantly, the fact that it takes away the ability to (aura)steal (the ONLY remotely useful steal we have) makes it exceptionally useless.

Again, I am sorry to sound disrespectful. I know what I knightmare it must be to address agnry and whiny players demading changes for their job.

But the disconnect between the playerbase and the Dev Team on these key issues really worries me. After seeing their vision for the job and hearing these responses, I find myself very discouraged for the future of my beloved THF.

You are so worried about making us "over powered" that almost everything you have given us has been "under powered" to the point of functional uselessness.

Zyla420

07-26-2011, 08:26 AM

By adding attractive items to monsters, we fear that it would be re-creating the scenario from the past regarding beastcoins (stealing and then hiding right after), making this pretty difficult to implement. If there were a good countermeasure for this it could work, but currently revamping or adding items to monsters is quite difficult.
1. hide only works on mobs that are sight only tracking
2. Instead of steal giving actual items, make it steal AoE based temp items that can benefit the pt as a whole. you know? like the abyssea temp items. makes the above concerns invalid.
3. for the love of all that is good and holy.... 1... min... recast..........

We believe making Aura Steal a separate ability would be over-powered. If we did do this, it’s likely that its use on notorious monsters would be removed and it would have even less of an effect than it does now.
the fact that any mage job can cast dispel makes this point invalid, making this a separate ability on a 1 min timer as well wouldn't break the job or be overpowered. if anything it'd go a long way towards helping fix the job.

Due to the fact that normal attacks now increase the effects of Treasure Hunter, we chose to forgo the addition of Subtle Blow as a trade off.
i personally would rather have native subtle blow than a +.000000001% increase on an item that has a 5% drop rate. wonder if anyone else playing thf feels the same? (for the record yes i know that's not the actual % at which TH increases drop rates, but tell me it don't feel that way sometimes....)

Nala

07-26-2011, 08:48 AM

I know your just relaying the information Camate, but i cant help but feel deeply disapointed... the information you have relayed has left me feeling that the dev team has no clue... this both deeply disturbs and sadens me.

honestly, since your worried about game balance in terms of steal/aura steal/despoil why are you so intent on improving upon it? your not going to add anything to make these abilities worth using, or increase their utility to a player, beyond the fact that these abilities are damn near useless, adjusting them will do nothing for a thief main.

the last good DD'esc buff you gave us was Assassin, a good 5? 6? years ago... thats just sad, when half our main DD ability is wrought with difficulty to utilize (sneak attack), you tell us to beat on mobs for TH but say no to subtle blow, you out source the abilities that make our job unique whats left?

If you want to take this back in the right direction keep the TH system as it is and start giving us abilities that encourage/enhance our DD capabilities, like subtle blow.

Coldbrand

07-26-2011, 09:18 AM

So you don't want to add items worth stealing because then people might want to steal them?

Alaik

07-26-2011, 09:32 AM

When you put it like that it sounds silly.

Alhanelem

07-26-2011, 10:29 AM

We believe making Aura Steal a separate ability would be over-powered.

...

Due to the fact that normal attacks now increase the effects of Treasure Hunter, we chose to forgo the addition of Subtle Blow as a trade off.Neither of these abilities have any direct combat function whatsoever, so I don't see how adding effects to them that do have a combat function would be overpowered.

Thief needs to have more attraction to it than just a boost to drops.

Deadgye

07-26-2011, 10:30 AM

You've added NMs to the game that set every single magic spell and ability to full recast, which means that giving us more recast timers has nothing to do with server load and all to do with player ability. We are the players and we're telling you we WANT our recast timers to be separate for steal and despoil.

Along with making them separate recast timers, reduce the cooldown on them to 1-2 minutes. (At the very least reduce steal to 1-2 minutes if you don't want to reduce both.)

Furthermore, aura steal requires you to put many merits into if if you want to steal the buff. If you're going to say that aura steal is for NMs and that's why they don't have steal pools then you have to make aura steal not a merit or at least change the way the merits work. (IE: 0/5 is just dispell, 1/5 is 50% steal, 2/5 is 100% steal, 3/5 4/5 5/5 is increased buff duration.)

You say you don't want thieves just hide+stealing again, but we can't do that anyway. Did you forget that the mobs steal pool doesn't refresh until we kill it? If abyssea depop respawn is different from aggro depop it's still okay because we can't hide from many of the mobs in that zone. We can't hide from any of the new NMs because they're all true sight/sound. And last but not least hide will still be 5 minutes long meaning we can't just hide+steal every 1-2 minutes.

Also, it seems apparent that you've completely forgotten about the existence of mug. Mug is on a fifteen minute cooldown and does absolutely nothing. Reduce it's cooldown, and make it do something.

Nebo

07-26-2011, 10:59 AM

I have to wonder if negative feedback is filtered?

Coming from the marketing world, I know how easy it can be to want to view negative feedback as not constructive or just internet nerds raging...and there is some of that here for sure...

...but the Dev team really needs to know, and if they are smart,PAY ATTENTION to how negative this feedback is. It is the most valuable feedback you will recieve.

To seemingly ignore a playerbase that is literally begging you to give them more reasons to keep giving you their money is probably the reason FFXI has never been as successful as it could have been. As it SHOULD have been.

"It will be too difficult to do this" and "PS2 limitations" that is getting very, very, very old.

It has taken you this long to engage us in conversation...

...why are you still not listening? It's bad for business. I can't speak for everyone, but it will most certainly lose you mine.

Byrth

07-26-2011, 11:51 AM

So, Camate's post honestly, left two routes open:
1) Nonspecific DD buffs
2) TH whore for life.

Nynja

07-26-2011, 12:07 PM

I can't speak for everyone, but it will most certainly lose you mine.

I doubt that lol...

Draylo

07-26-2011, 12:14 PM

What everyone seems to have missed here are the 6 words: Burn, Choke, Frost, Drown, Rasp and Shock. Maybe because none of you are Taru, idk, but at level 75 I had a 150 INT build on my BLM which gave -13 to enemy's stat, and 5 hp/tick DoT damage, and you can stack 3 of them (sometimes only 2, depending on enemy's resistant elements). Now at 90 and inside abyssea I hit 250 INT (without food or buffs from any other players). I haven't seen any evidence of there being higher tiers of these spells, but if there are... I'm there.

THAT is a primary example of using a BLM to both nuke AND enfeeble, where a RDM, WHM, BRD, DRK etc don't get the same ability. 2 pages of arguing this, and everyone missed this?!

Sorry to bring it up again, it was 3-5 pages ago, but I was at work for that argument.

Also at Draylo - I really don't care about anything that you say in this thread after reading the comment "I haven't read this whole thread, deal with it".
If I come in to a thread on page ~12 or whatever, I'll at least read the first 2 and last 2 pages. Then, when I comment, I'll start with "I'm sorry if this has already been covered, but it's a long thread and it would take me forever to read it all".
Your comment was just rude, and insulting to everyone who posted here.

Oh boo hoo, I'm not reading 17 pages just to post my opinion and respond to someone who is responding to me. I could care less if they said it once before, if they don't wanna say it again then don't. You don't *have* to post and respond.

@the THF stuff, I think it sucks they feel players would actually wanna use steal more often... In past FF games (yes I keep referencing them because they are important) there were tons of battle where you wanted to steal items all the time, most important was FF9 boss battles. THF should be able to steal more items, useful items. I haven't used steal to get an items in over 2 years, almost certainly... I use it exclusively to claim or aura steal.

Yugl

07-26-2011, 12:15 PM

So, Camate's post honestly, left two routes open:
1) Nonspecific DD buffs
2) TH whore for life.

Called it before the reply.

Airget

07-26-2011, 12:25 PM

Perhaps give THF the ability to choose whether they would want to increase TH potency or subtle blow.

You could make it where a THF's TH potency increase is always active however you could create a JA that increases subtle blow potency but negates the TH effect from going off.

What would be nice about this is there are mobs where at times TH isn't useful so it would be nice to give THF the ability to enhance their abilities by other means when TH is deemed useless to them.

In terms of steal and balancing it out. You could possibly do this. I think it would be very simple to code but basically create this code.

When you steal from x mob type you are unable to steal anything from that mob until you kill that mob type.

So basically the idea of a person stealing then running from a mob would be invalid since they would need to kill said mob type in order for them to even have a chance of stealing from them again. From what you've said your main concern about steal is the fact that a person would steal then make the mob despawn rinse repeat. If you setup a code that prevents said player from stealing unless that mob is killed by them or in the same party then I think it would be possible to add more items to steal.

However as another suggestion granted it's far away from now but I believe it would be possible to give THF a boost in dungeons and make steal potent within dungeons to make things easier. While most all other jobs would have to find keys and such within a dungeon the THF would be able to lockpick it.

Anyways while I can sort of understand the caution of adding certain abilities, the main issue THF's have is they feel SE has delegated them to TH onry. But ya I'd be curious to see another response from the devs as to a more detailed idea of what kind of abilities they wish to give THF's if perhaps we could have a taste or idea of actual abilities and traits it may help to ease peoples worries of the future of THF.

Suirieko

07-26-2011, 12:26 PM

Also, it seems apparent that you've completely forgotten about the existence of mug. Mug is on a fifteen minute cooldown and does absolutely nothing. Reduce it's cooldown, and make it do something.

Somewhat incorrect. Mug only works on mobs that actually carries gil (IE, if they drop it upon defeat, you can mug it.) I did made quite a bit of money mugging NMs in sky, and occasionally running by shadow dragon every time I go to Dynamis - Xarcabard.

I do agree with one thing, 15 minutes is kind of too long for mug, but eh.

By adding attractive items to monsters, we fear that it would be re-creating the scenario from the past regarding beastcoins (stealing and then hiding right after), making this pretty difficult to implement. If there were a good countermeasure for this it could work, but currently revamping or adding items to monsters is quite difficult.

This generally only works on mobs that only track (and aggro) by sight. IE: Goblins and Yagudos for the most part, when it comes to the said issue in question. Not to mention, once you steal from a mob, you can't steal again til they are killed. So to be honest, I really don't see how this is an issue.

Alderin

07-26-2011, 12:50 PM

There is nothing wrong with THF and the role it is played. Get a grip of yourselves. If you don't like it, level another job.

THF has TH - Yes you will be a TH whore but get a WHM & Tank that doesnt suck so you call full-time it, not pull hate and not die.

SA & TA vs. the new WAR JA - If I am reading it correctly, a JA to force the next melee hit to crit is nothing too special on WAR. The reason SA & TA is so powerful is because of their DEX / AGI mods, which I am guessing WAR won't get. This JA will only be useful outside abyssea as crit hit rate is usually capped in abyssea apart from some of the higher level nm's.

If you think THF is in the class of a heavy-DD, you are insanely wrong. Yes they deal more damage now that crit hit rate can be capped easily with atmas & buffs, however THF was never designed to deal heavy damage. It will never deal heavy damage in comparison to jobs designed for this so stop trying to moan about DD's getting job abilities that will let them do their jobs better - and that is Damage Dealing.

Before you start the /emorage, no I do not have a level 90 WAR, yes I do have a level 90 THF and I think it is stupid to think that THF will ever be more then hate control & TH.

A useful update? Perhaps a JA that forces a TH build proc with a recast of 1 or 2 mins would be nice. Apart from that THF has all the tools it needs in order to do it's job - and that is to get gear / items to drop.

Selzak

07-26-2011, 01:21 PM

So uh...What is the intended use of "Steal" then?

Nebo

07-26-2011, 01:51 PM

There is nothing wrong with THF and the role it is played. Get a grip of yourselves. If you don't like it, level another job.

Riiiiight. This is clearly the answer to the problem. :rolleyes:

SA & TA vs. the new WAR JA - If I am reading it correctly, a JA to force the next melee hit to crit is nothing too special on WAR. The reason SA & TA is so powerful is because of their DEX / AGI mods, which I am guessing WAR won't get. This JA will only be useful outside abyssea as crit hit rate is usually capped in abyssea apart from some of the higher level nm's.

No, this JA is retarded. Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS. If they get the ability to force Crits outside on non-empyrean WS that can't crit naturally...WITHOUT the retarded positional restrictions...seriously, gtfo with that bs.

If you think THF is in the class of a heavy-DD, you are insanely wrong.

Seriously, why does every herp a derp come in here after not reading the thread, or the concerns mentioned and throw this retarded statement around. NO ONE in this thread has asked for this.....or said THF should be this.

Before you start the /emorage, no I do not have a level 90 WAR, yes I do have a level 90 THF and I think it is stupid to think that THF will ever be more then hate control & TH.

I think it is pretty stupid to think that a THF can "control" hate in any endgame situation....at all. Trick attack is dependant on *GASP* DAMAGE.....like nowai. And Accomplorator timers are too long/shared (not to mention party only) to be able to control....anything.

I think maybe....juuust maybe, you just don't know what you are talking about.

THF has all the tools it needs in order to do it's job - and that is to get gear / items to drop.

See above.

Nala

07-26-2011, 02:09 PM

or how about, being a TH whore only is just about as fun as watching paint dry? we were one of the original 6 jobs, and originally we were a DD.

just because you only care to TH whore doesn't mean that the rest of us want that to be our ONLY role in anything, i dont want to be the top DD in the game, hell i dont care if they even give us some kind of weak buff, but at this point any augment to our damage capabilities would be nice (DW1 aside... though that can hardly be called a buff)

and as the previous post states, war getting the ability to force crit outside abyssea without a positional restriction is just wrong, yeah yeah we get DEX mods, when the NM's in the middle of doing the normal whirlwind hate dance when are we suposed to sneak attack? oh wait lets hid... opps that doesnt work on NM's hmmm.... i got it control hate with accomplise!! nvm i have hate now.

i've been a thief since day one of my time playing this game, and ive waited, very patiently, for 4/7ish years ive been playing very patiently for any life signs on the matter on hand, this manifesto has crushed any hope i had that they may ever do anything for thief besides forcing the job into a TH only role. This is a game after all, i play to have fun, fun isn't running in and getting scolded for feeding tp, or trying to chase an NM's back for sneak attack, fun isn't tickling mobs outside abyssea.

For those of you who would argue go level another job, well what if im told to come to an event on thief what then? your argument fails, im now without choice on the matter.

As a closing statment its not just in the NA forums that DD augments are being requested, so if you want to jump in here and go LOLTHFDD LEVELAREALJOBNOOB, GTFO not only are you a minority in this matter but you're a damn retard.

Seankp

07-26-2011, 02:14 PM

That’s what Aura Steal is for! The effects stolen by Aura Steal are essentially the raw stats that the monster possesses.

Aura Steal should not be required to make Steal useful. If the Dev Team is saying this, then it needs to be a natural Job Trait or even it's on Job Ability on a 1 minute timer to be useful like other forms of Dispel since none of them come even close to a 5 minute timer.

The same can and should be said about Shellra V/Protectra V, Dia III, Bio III, Paralyze II, Slow II, Blind II, and Phalanx II, as well as all the SMN Group 2 merits.

None of these things should be required, and if the Dev team starts saying they are required to make something useful, then they need to make them available naturally to jobs and fix the merits completely.

Zirael

07-26-2011, 02:15 PM

I want to thank you, Camate, and the development team for taking the time to attempt to address our concerns.

I am really at a loss for words on some of these responses. I am very sorry that this is going to sound disrespectful because this is most certainly not my intention.

But it really does feel that the developement team is very out of touch with the difficulties that the job faces and the actual utility of the unique abilities that THF has left.

This, specifically, worries me greatly. What the treasure update has done is create a situation where the mechanics of how the THF job functions are in direct contradiction.

We are supposed to be engaging the monster to enhance treasure hunter? OK. But with A) the extremely low proc rate on Treasure Hunter for melee swings, and B) the sheer amount of TP we feed to high level Notorious Monsters, this has simply created a situation where THF will not be allowed to engage and forced simply to Sneak Attack and Trick Attack the Monster as timers allow while disengaged. Even with subtle blow gear, it would not be worth it for Treasure hunter procs.

You must understand the frustration here. The developement team has taken so much from us in this area without anything in its place. The fabled gold coin adjustment, the removal of valuable items from treasure coffers, the phasing out of Mug by failing to give any new monsters anything to mug, etc.

I understand this is a difficult issue, but the idea that seperating aurasteal from steal would be overpowered? Especially given that they are tied to a (needlessly long)5 minute recast timer? I don't understand that logic. They are completely seperate abilities with completely seperate functions that, because of the way they were combined, are often in contradiction with each other.

Seperating Aurasteal would not make it overpowered. The fact that it is tied to a 5 minute recast timer AND combined with Steal make it severely underpowered as a 75+ job ability. What seperating them would do is give us our very first steal ability that was acutally useful for its function.

I don't understand this need for the development team to sort of, kind of, almost give THF something that is useful. And then completely kill its relevance with either a needlessly long or shared recast timer. There is nothing about THF right now that is overpowered.

Adding things to Despoil is not going to fix it. The ability itself really needs to be taken a look at and reconsidered. The items that despoil steals are of no use to anyone at this point in the game's lifespan. Adding Despoil as a post-75 level cap ability shows a serious disconnect between the playerbase and the Developement team. I really don't think they understand how taxed our inventory is....that aurasteal and despoil both require you to have inventory space to even attempt to take advantage of their effects

But even the fact that Despoil attempts to steal an item as a requsite for its enfeebling effect to occur is useless at this stage in FFXI's lifespan. The variability of that enfeebling effect, should the steal be a success, is useless in any situation you would want to enfeeble any enemy. A variable enfeebling effect on a 5 minute timer is really quite useless. But most importantly, the fact that it takes away the ability to (aura)steal (the ONLY remotely useful steal we have) makes it exceptionally useless.

Again, I am sorry to sound disrespectful. I know what I knightmare it must be to address agnry and whiny players demading changes for their job.

But the disconnect between the playerbase and the Dev Team on these key issues really worries me. After seeing their vision for the job and hearing these responses, I find myself very discouraged for the future of my beloved THF.

^ Pretty much this. These days I use Steal only to dispel something but:
a) Orthrus puts on his Blaze spikes back 15 seconds later anyway (now when I think about it, how about making it so that monster is unable to regain the Aura Stolen effect for the next 5min? one can only dream...)
b) my memory fails here, but there are effects on new NMs that can not be dispelled with Aura Steal, so... where's that overpowerness of the ability you're talking about? (hmm, Pantokrator's shock spikes maybe? anyone got better fail examples?).
To me it looks like Aura Steal has no effect on Notorious Monsters either.

The last thing I'm confident to reliably use Steal for it's actual purpose is Mythril Beastcoins in Sea Serpent Grotto. Any higher level content after that is not worth the trouble. Completing a stack of Gold Beastcoins takes like how long; 2-3 hours if lucky? And it doesn't even buy you 12 Shihei toolbags. Who'd call that overpowered?

Despoiling Ladybug Wings, Goblin Chocolates, Murex Spicules... if I got free space to spare, they feed closest NPC for 30gil or so, if I can't afford having junk in inventory, the ability is never even used. Where's it's utility for anything other than amusement for a laugh? Anyone got any example of lv77 THF job ability contributing to the success of you or your party's battle?

No Subtle Blow (and probably lame Dual Wield) due to chance of upgrading TH effect. Personally I have never seen TH upgrade to more than 11, and that was with me and my friend THF+THF using hand-to-hand on Behemoth and SA/TA each other for 20-25min, at which point it has almost no HP left and we are few minutes away from raging it. Each time we reached TH10, few times 11. And guess what? Out of all the battles only 1 Savoury Shank. Doesn't bump from 8% droprate established in the other thread anyway from what I saw. I want my 99 Kindred Seals back.

Does SE really envision parties and alliances staggering battles in future endgame content for 20-30min+ so that TH goes up to 10-11? Tell me the last time you got that shining Voidwatch body armor thanks to THF efforts. As soon as healers cap their hate outside Abyssea, the battle ends. And please don't bring up the idea of PLD holding hate at that point. If I'm standing with mages to Collaborator them, it has no visible impact aside from me capping hate before them and everyone eating Thundaga III (or Thundaja, the new buzzword) anyway. It is not possible to SA/TA for TH and Collaborator mages in the same time either due to lame range of Collaborator. That is, if you can actually approach AoE spamming monster in content designed so that PLD does not look like a wasted party slot anymore.

As for that third ability, I hope it's something else than Side Attack (hit monster from the side to score critical hit! modificator: Charisma!).

While thieves possess superior stats for all of the above, we do understand your concerns. I apologize that I can’t go into detail about specific abilities, but we are planning to make adjustments so that thieves are really able to shine.

No disrespect Camate, but I saw example of THF adjustments in the latest version update (extended Collaborator/Accomplice range not being even noticable; DNC Climatic Flourish, DRK Last Resort in comparison etc.), so at the moment I'm under the impression THF is not being taken seriously. Right now, from what Devs said about THF's future, it looks very bleak to me (and many others, as you've probably seen).

Nebo

07-26-2011, 02:20 PM

or how about, being a TH whore only is just about as fun as watching paint dry? we were one of the original 6 jobs, and originally we were a DD.

I'll tell you what. I would be perfectly happy (really happy actually) being a loot whore job if being a Treasure Hunter had anything at all to do with the skill of the THF. Or if vastly superior DD jobs with "!!" weakness triggers couldn't increase drop rates better than I could ever hope to.

When a naked, subjobless mule account with only 3 pieces of gear can do the exact same job that a near-decade career THF can....there is really something wrong.

I'm going to link to a post that I think sums up my feelings on this pretty well. Banalaty over on Allakhazam had this to say about THF:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=1310416442266022552&h=50&p=5#210

What Im gettin at is that all the other jobs are chosen based on what player PLAYS their niche the best. If you have 2 whms and you want 1, you pick the one who heals better/more efficiently. Everyone knows the difference between having the 4th string benchwarmer whm in your party instead of your LS A-Team whm. One always seems to have MP and everyone alive. The other is out of MP in 15 seconds and everyone is dead. Everyone knows the difference between a crappy war and a good war they know. When you go through your linkshell/friendlist to fill a job role you try to get the GOOD one 1st.

THe definition of a 'good' whm vs a 'bad' whm is a skill based distinction. One sucks, the other doesnt. There are good wars that rape face and bad ones that just cant ever seem to do any damage. There are plds that cant hold hate for crap and die to 'easy' mobs. There are good ones that can seem invincible. My point is that for virtually every job, when filling a role, the 1st thing you look for is who is better at the job and that difference is skill based. For thf, you ask "Who has TH6?".

Thf is the only job that when choosing one, the priority is made exclusivly by 3 pieces of gear. Hands, Weapon, Feet. It isnt who plays it well unlike, say a whm. If thf is forced into a nich (which every job is more or less) then the difference between a good and bad thf should be skill based (like every other job) and not the aquisition of 3 pieces of gear. (see my example a few posts up about being the 'best' thf in LS but not having TH6). The 'skill' of a thf is rated second to their TH level. The skill should be the most important thing just like every other job.

Nothing wrong with filling a specific niche. Nothing at all. The difference is TH niche has nothing to do with the player and everything to do with 3 pieces of gear, and that is the ONLY niche thf fills. Thus I would propose either: Make TH somehow skill-based (dont know how that would be implemented well) or give them a new niche (tons of way to implement). Id rather not compete in the flooded DD 'niche' so to speak.

There are still times that you dont need a super leet whm, and really any whm will do. This is true for thf as well. SOemtimes you JUST need TH and really any thf will do, but there is not really any time that you NEED a skilled thf, but you do need a skilled (tank, healer, support, DD etc). Something like expanding the hate manipulation or some other 'niche' would mean there ARE times that you would specifically seek out a 'skilled' thf over anyone with TH6. That is the distinction that I would like to see come to thf. A point where it matters at all what you do besides have TH6.

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 03:28 PM

People look at anything other than the general section?

Not to mention that the dev's answer questions from places other than the general section?

what is this

Karbuncle

07-26-2011, 03:59 PM

I'm awake, I'm awake D:!

First Off i'd like to deeply thank you Camate for coming here and speaking to us, and further thank you for speaking to the Dev team on our behalf. I'd like to ask 1 question!

Do you relay any Job Ability/Job Trait Suggestions to them? By their responses it feels like "We already have a plan for THF and aren't taking any advice", to the point i ask, Why bother with these forums?

Maybe I'm reading them wrong but it really feels like these job forums are a charade and any input we have is ignored. I'm not saying you don't deliver the messages, I'm saying it feels like you deliver them into a paper shredder so to speak. Am i the only one who read that and got the feeling they had THF planned out for 91-99 already and had no intention to change or deviate from the plan at all?

Anyway, I'm probably being paranoid, But moving on :X

On the topic of balance, The problem that has occurred many times in trying to "not make a job too powerful" has been inevitably that job will becoming realistically worthless with a slew of worthless abilities. I Admit TH is the one only thing keeping the job afloat, and its a wonderful thing, But as the Subtle Blow comment depicted, THF, and the Devs, Sacrifice far to much for TH...

Examples of jobs becoming worthless because of "Fear" Of overpowering them. - RDM, DRK(Souleater nerfs on everything), RNG... THF now.

After seeing where and why the Devs are concerned about timers. Perhaps i can make just a few more suggestions? Maybe address some of their concerns...

Someone on BG Said it better than i could

I understand that they have a vision of how it should be played, but how can they not realize that NOBODY DOES IT THAT WAY. Instead of trying to cram useless adjustments that are aligned with their own views of how the game should be played, why not make adjustments that are in line with how people actually DO play the game. .

Nebo

07-26-2011, 04:03 PM

One last thing, on Aura Steal being too powerful.

PUP has a Dispel Attachment. short timer
Every Mage can get dispel, its like 10 second recast.
BLU gets like 3 dispels including a dispel that absorbs the buff, 56 second recast (Voracious Trunk)
BLU gets a second dispel that drains HP AND Absorbs a buff. 90 second recast (Osmosis)

THF gets Aura Steal, 5 minute timer, does not always drain the buff, can miss. Has to be merited.

Tell me again, How exactly is balance an Issue when every single job can dispel, and BLU can basically Aura Steal multiple times in a much shorter period of time?

Because you have treasure hunter. Now kindly shut up, stop complaining, tag the HNM with Treasure Hunter like you used to and go sit in a corner.

Actually, scratch that. Switch to BRD or BLM please, because my level 90 THF mule with only 3 pieces of gear and no merits whatsoever can replace you...... <.< lolcareerTHF.

Karbuncle

07-26-2011, 04:04 PM

Because you have treasure hunter. Now kindly shut up, stop complaining, tag the HNM with TH like you used to and go sit in a corner.

That is pretty much exactly what i think the DEVs are thinking when they're presented with our complaints.

Yinnyth

07-26-2011, 04:12 PM

1. hide only works on mobs that are sight only tracking

Something I just wanted to mention really quick because most people, even life-long thieves, don't seem to understand that there are other situations in which you can make hide work. Skeletons are one of the best examples; they detect by sound and HP, yet you can hide from them as long as your HP is above 75%. There are other more annoying ways to hide from other creatures, such as popping a deodorizer before using hide to successfully hide from certain scent-tracking enemies. This is all mostly a moot point though seeing as how hide is largely an underpowered ability. My opinion is that it should automatically succeed on anything that isn't an NM, and on NMs it should still be an automatic hate reset on the thf.

Nebo

07-26-2011, 04:28 PM

Something I just wanted to mention really quick because most people, even life-long thieves, don't seem to understand that there are other situations in which you can make hide work. Skeletons are one of the best examples; they detect by sound and HP, yet you can hide from them as long as your HP is above 75%. There are other more annoying ways to hide from other creatures, such as popping a deodorizer before using hide to successfully hide from certain scent-tracking enemies. This is all mostly a moot point though seeing as how hide is largely an underpowered ability. My opinion is that it should automatically succeed on anything that isn't an NM, and on NMs it should still be an automatic hate reset on the thf.

The major limiting factor with Hide is whether or not the monster tracks by smell. If it doesn't track by scent, or doesn't have True sight/true hearing you can hide from it.

The problem is there aren't very many worthwhile things at all that meet those requirements.

In the case of mobs like Skeletons that detect sound, if you don't run away with the quickness imediately after you hide, they will just reaggro you again because hide doesn't give sneak.

Leonlionheart

07-26-2011, 05:35 PM

Because THF gets TH, they ALWAYS have a spot in a group.

Salvage.
Nyzul.
HNM.
Sky.
Limbus.
Dynamis.
Abyssea.

Everything.

I think this should be very highly noted. I don't think it should make them gimp in every other situation, but I also don't think that THF, which is also, in a way, a high survivability job, needs too much else.

However their "Enmity Control" aspect is completely useless to a point (at least at the moment). If they could shed their accumulated hate onto someone else, it'd be an even more highly desired job.

It seems that SE's "vision" is to have all jobs equally desired, and THF just doesn't have that problem.

Personally I think they should go back to enmity control and spike damage (along with TH), but maybe that's just me.

Alderin

07-26-2011, 05:43 PM

Riiiiight. This is clearly the answer to the problem. :rolleyes:

Yep. If you don't like it, do something else.

No, this JA is retarded. Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS. If they get the ability to force Crits outside on non-empyrean WS that can't crit naturally...WITHOUT the retarded positional restrictions...seriously, gtfo with that bs.

And they arent meant to be. You are comparing a heavy DD to a single-handed dagger wielding job. Of course stacked WS's arent going to compare with WAR ws's. So your having a Q.Q that WAR are getting a JA that they would get with /THF natively, and yet you are whinging that you don't have Dual Wield II+ natively unless you /NIN or /DNC? Same concept here... "Other jobs should stop stealing our unique traits and abilities. Yet I think we need dual wield from NIN & DNC". Q.Q more.

Besides, if you can't land a SA you have a crap tank and should get a better one. If you can't land a TA then you should change jobs. The "positional restrictions" are fine as they are. Lets run upto a mob's face, and "Sneak Attack" his eyeballs..

Seriously, why does every herp a derp come in here after not reading the thread, or the concerns mentioned and throw this retarded statement around. NO ONE in this thread has asked for this.....or said THF should be this.

I would requote what you wrote but ironically it's in the same post. Hell I will do it: "No, this JA is retarded. Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS."...

Comments like that is where I was getting my aforementioned statement from. People Q.Q'ing that their damage does not compare to a WAR.

I think it is pretty stupid to think that a THF can "control" hate in any endgame situation....at all. Trick attack is dependant on *GASP* DAMAGE.....like nowai. And Accomplorator timers are too long/shared (not to mention party only) to be able to control....anything.

Tanks are the hate control, THF is the backup. Always has been like this, always will. If a tank is struggling to hold hate, then the THF is there to support them. A little bit less relevant in Abyssea as the tanks are usually the main DD in the party, however if you do anything outside Abyssea, THF still plays a role in hate control.

As for TA & hate control - Yes of course it has to do with DAMAGE as you put. Learn to increase that damage with modifiers. As mentioned above - has a much less of a point in Abyssea but can still be used efficiently in areas like Voidwatch.

I think maybe....juuust maybe, you just don't know what you are talking about.

Hmmm, I think I seem to be missing something here, what is WHM a specialist for? Healing. What is a BLM a specialist for? Nuking. PLD? Tanking..

What about THF? oh yes right... to get our loot to drop! TREASURE HUNTER!

If you want to play a different role we come back to the original point here - level a different job!

Disclaimer: My THF was the 3rd job I ever had at lvl 90 (Grinded from 1-75 without abyssea of course). It is what I consider quite well geared, and I am not a complete dumbarse because I know the only use for THF's for end-game events is and will always be TH. Apart from TH & the occasional pull - THF will never be able to do anything better then other jobs.

Peace.

Karbuncle

07-26-2011, 06:13 PM

Yep. If you don't like it, do something else.

I don't agree with this. We love the job, and we have the right to ask for improvements. Helping THF isn't going to nerf other jobs.

And they arent meant to be. You are comparing a heavy DD to a single-handed dagger wielding job. Of course stacked WS's arent going to compare with WAR ws's. So your having a Q.Q that WAR are getting a JA that they would get with /THF natively, and yet you are whinging that you don't have Dual Wield II+ natively unless you /NIN or /DNC? Same concept here... "Other jobs should stop stealing our unique traits and abilities. Yet I think we need dual wield from NIN & DNC". Q.Q more.

THF Was originally intended to be a DD. I don't know if you've noticed Job traits like Assassin, and Triple Attack, or Abilities like Sneak Attack, and Trick attack, or Massive boosts to Haste/DD stats on our Empyrean. THF from the beginning was a DPS/DD job. The problem is since level 75 the gap between THF and other DD has widened substantionally. We're asking the gap be lessened a bit.

Secondly, We do have Dual Wield II.

Besides, if you can't land a SA you have a crap tank and should get a better one. If you can't land a TA then you should change jobs. The "positional restrictions" are fine as they are. Lets run upto a mob's face, and "Sneak Attack" his eyeballs..

"I have no idea how Enmity works"?

I'm sorry but even the best tank hits an Enmity cap. While I'm not arguing its easy to land SA or TA as long as you're not Solo or the only Tank, It does not make your response any less uninformed.

I don't deny SA and TA do not need their position restrictions removed, but acting like all you need is a good tank is incorrect. Trick Attack is always easy enough to land, SA is generally the problem if you're getting to hate cap. This is only a big problem in Abyssea, So i don't really even consider it a big issue. Because Abyssea is ending.

I would requote what you wrote but ironically it's in the same post. Hell I will do it: "No, this JA is retarded. Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS."...

Theoretically SE gave us SA and TA to help our WS. I direct your attention to Mercy Stroke, Shark Bite, Mandalic Stab, Viper bite, and Rudra's Storm. all terrible Ws's unless paired with SA or TA. it stands to reason when paired with SA or TA we should do similar damage? Well on somethings we do, So i can't complain too much about this.

Regardless of the fact it all comes back to the fact THF Was originally intended to take a DD's spot, Do you think we had TH for Exp parties? lol... no. We were there for Damage, and Trick Attack. We're not asking to transcend gods, we're asking for the ever larger gap in our power to be shorted a little. if you read the thread, You'd understand that.

Comments like that is where I was getting my aforementioned statement from. People Q.Q'ing that their damage does not compare to a WAR.

No ones QQ'ing to that? We're QQ'ing our damage is awful. We compare it to WAR/MNK/SAM because those are easily identified as the top-tier DD (In/out Abyssea). We never wanted our DD to compare to a WARs, We're asking that the large gap between our powered be filled slightly.

Thats originally all i wanted. I'm leaning more toward party/support utility at this point, But I don't think we'll even see that if the DEV team thinks Despoil is too overpowered.

Tanks are the hate control, THF is the backup. Always has been like this, always will. If a tank is struggling to hold hate, then the THF is there to support them. A little bit less relevant in Abyssea as the tanks are usually the main DD in the party, however if you do anything outside Abyssea, THF still plays a role in hate control.

It has never "Always been like this". THF has never been needed for Hate control short of Exp parties, even then You can make an exp party without a THF, its not required in any way. To be frank, its a useless role.

Beyond that, not a single Endgame event required a THF For Enmity control in the history of the entire game. Ever. Because no one needed it.

Same goes for right now. No endgame event needs a THF for back-up Enmity control, Because if your group has IQ higher than "potato" they can kill an NM just fine without "Enmity control", because everyone there knows how to do that already. Including tanks.

As for TA & hate control - Yes of course it has to do with DAMAGE as you put. Learn to increase that damage with modifiers. As mentioned above - has a much less of a point in Abyssea but can still be used efficiently in areas like Voidwatch.

Point is the "DAMAGE" through "TRICK ATTACK" and its "MODS" is terrible. Even Stacking full AGI/ATK like you're suppose too if you're not meleeing, (Because not meleeing you disregard haste factors into DPS for SA/TA), The Damage is barely a noticeable increase. Ever fought Voidwrought? Go check your Average TA numbers. They're about the same as a Great Axe Critical hit you can do once per minute.

AGI adds 1 base damage to your weapon with TA. Even a MIthran THF in full TA gear outside Abyssea will likely just reach ~180 Base Damage weapon, thats just about 50 away from a normal Great axe.Toss in the fact WARs have much higher attack and buffs than us, including more STR, the damage isn't very far. So when you take into account how little damage trick attack does, you see how its not really great as Enmity control

It doesn't do NOTHING, But its not needed at all.

Hmmm, I think I seem to be missing something here, what is WHM a specialist for? Healing. What is a BLM a specialist for? Nuking. PLD? Tanking..

What about THF? oh yes right... to get our loot to drop! TREASURE HUNTER!

No one has debated that Ever? We know all we're good for is TH. We're asking our role extend beyond that. for instance, WHM is also a great Buffer, and Decent Enfeebler, BLM is a good Enfeebler as well, RDM can Cure, Buff, Enfeebled, etc. PLD can Tank and Cure, as well as provide minimal buffs and Support.

THF right now is TH, and very very limited Enmity abilities. If you read my posts you see im moving slightly away from damage and more toward Utility gains.

Disclaimer: My THF was the 3rd job I ever had at lvl 90 (Grinded from 1-75 without abyssea of course). It is what I consider quite well geared, and I am not a complete dumbarse because I know the only use for THF's for end-game events is and will always be TH. Apart from TH & the occasional pull - THF will never be able to do anything better then other jobs.

The problem is THF was never really prepared for its "Endgame role" early on. Back when i first played FFXI, before CoP release, THF was a DD, SATA>Viper Bite to distortion combo was epic. I leveled the job expecting to be a DD at endgame.

I was wrong, We were TH's. You can't blame THF's for wanting back a little of what they had leveling up, power. Our Party-play is so vastly different than our endgame. Seriously what other job is like that? As a THF in an exp party your job is to kick ass and take names, you did decent damage.

Endgame, You hit the mob and Afk No other job has this massive shift i job role based on exp situation or endgame. It doesn't prepare the job for it.

Party Situations:

WHM - Healer, Buffer, Make-shift Enfeebler.
RDM - enfeebler, Healing, Refresh, Buffing.
BLM - Nuker, Limited Enfeebles, Can Cure.
THF - DD, Limited Enmity control (Trick Attack). Puller.

Endgame
Same roles for WHM, RDM, and BLM.

THF? Treasure Hunter. We're not needed for Enmity control, TA is useless as a tool for that in endgame content, Collab/accomp work well, but with no means to dump said Enmity it adds up on the THF, eventually killing it or giving the THF hate, our Damage is crap so we're not considered a DD anymore either.

I don't know where to go from here, Sorry.

Nebo

07-26-2011, 06:16 PM

Because THF gets TH, they ALWAYS have a spot in a group.

Salvage.
Nyzul.
HNM.
Sky.
Limbus.
Dynamis.
Abyssea.

Everything.

THF does not have a spot in: any mission fight, any add on fight, any KSNM, BCNM, ENM, ANNM, Voidwatch (that little light fix they added did functionally squat), non-abyssean exp party, etc.

I also don't think that THF, which is also, in a way, a high survivability job, needs too much else.

I disagree:

MNK + Ridiclous Counter rates

DNC + Crazy insane survivability

NIN + Way more survivabiliy options than THF could ever dream of

WAR + PDT/MDT sets

etc.

It seems that SE's "vision" is to have all jobs equally desired, and THF just doesn't have that problem.

Yes it does. When you do abyssea (farming emp weapons items aside), you make sure you have your proc jobs first, and then if you have a slot left over, you get TH6. TH6 is an icing on the cake afterthought, not a prerequisit. You would never sacrafice your weakness triggers to bring TH.

This is what baffles me, TH was never a crazy, OMG WTFBBQ increase to good drops because it scaled right down with those single digit drop rates. With the addition of weakness triggers dramatically increasing drop rates on quality items, it has allowed groups to get better drop rates now than they could could ever get with a THF alone, without a THF in the party at all if need be.

Yes, they stack but if your group is ready to go with everything but yellow triggers....guess who is going BLM/BRD and not THF?

How am I the loot whore specialst when BLM/BRD is better at making empyrean upgrade seals/+2 items drop?

How am I the loot whore specialist when VASTLY superior DD's with way more blue trigger procs can make armor drop better than I can?

How am I the loot whore specialist when a NIN can make Key Items drop much much better than I can?

How am I the Treasure Hunter Specialist when my Treasure Hunter means jack squat for voidwatch events?

I have always felt like the stagger system should have been given to THF in some way and not spread out across all jobs. A good THF would be able to stagger well and consistantly, increasing drop rates for his group. A pink bandwagon abyssea THF, not so good. Now a days...if you have staggers, you really don't even need a THF for drops. Yeah, they stack, but if Yellow can get you 3 of a +2 item, and the mob can't drop more than 3....yeah.

THF is not the go-to "We need you for loot" guy any more. We're 3rd string even for that. As if that wasn't enoough, they gave away the almighty Treasure Hunter itself to two other jobs!

I am sick to death of hearing "You have TH, stop QQ and be happy herp a derp derp."

Nebo

07-26-2011, 07:26 PM

Yep. If you don't like it, do something else.

This just so happens to be a negative feedback thread about SE's vision for THF. If you don't like it, post somewhere else....wait a minute, that logic doesn't work does it?

And they arent meant to be. You are comparing a heavy DD to a single-handed dagger wielding job. Of course stacked WS's arent going to compare with WAR ws's.

Yes, I think that with the mechanics, positional restrictions and recast timers of SA/TA, your average stacked weaponskill should be stronger than or at least similar to a comparable WS from a comparably geared WAR.

I don't think you realise just how wide this gap is now. Since we are using WAR as an example, WAR with Haste/buffs/Atma/Retaliation or Counterstance/Hasso/whateverbuffs can literaly spam immensely powerful WS without concern for recast timers or positional restrictions as their TP races up to 100.

If a THF does not stack WS, they are comparatively garbage. So we become limited to 2 Job abilities, dependant on difficult to fulfil positional restrictions at times, that can only be used once per minute to even DREAM of putting out a WS that is on a respectable level. This creates a very serious gap between other DD's and THF, which widens exponentially at higher levels of haste.

So yes, I happen to think that these spike damage abilities should give just that. Spike damage.

So your having a Q.Q that WAR are getting a JA that they would get with /THF natively

Well, first off, not having to sub THF to get it is pretty absurd, since that was the trade off. You sacrafice a sub with obviously superior damage output potential, but you get a 100% acc forced crit WS once a minute, with a hate transfer option.

Second, this is better than /TH becuase there are no positional restrictions attatched to it. Meaning that no matter what is going on, whether you are tanking or not, whether you are pulling hate or not, you can ride the timer for this JA. That. Shit. Is. Busted.

Comments like that is where I was getting my aforementioned statement from. People Q.Q'ing that their damage does not compare to a WAR.

Ah...I see the misunderstanding here. You are mistaking what I think spike damage should be for these 60 second cooldown job abilities for thinking that my Damage should compare to a WAR. These are very different ideas.

THF still plays a role in hate control.

No it doesn't

As for TA & hate control - Yes of course it has to do with DAMAGE as you put. Learn to increase that damage with modifiers. As mentioned above - has a much less of a point in Abyssea but can still be used efficiently in areas like Voidwatch.

No it can't

Hmmm, I think I seem to be missing something here, what is WHM a specialist for? Healing. What is a BLM a specialist for? Nuking. PLD? Tanking..

What about THF? oh yes right... to get our loot to drop! TREASURE HUNTER!

If you want to play a different role we come back to the original point here - level a different job!

Well, I want seals to drop, I can perform that role better on BLM/BRD. If I want Armor, I can change to a job with more Blue Triggers and perfrom that role better. If I want Key Items, I can chance to NIN and do that better. I can go to voidwatch with better trigger jobs and not use a THF at all...I probably won't either because that TH boost to lights was a joke.

Treasure Hunter is third string. They added weakness triggers to abyssea, then voidwatch, and then dynamis. Does it seem to you like this is going away? Because it seems to me like TH becomes less and less relevant with each new endgame content they roll out as long as you have your weakness trigger jobs in place.

Yugl

07-26-2011, 07:47 PM

Karbuncle

07-26-2011, 07:57 PM

Going by the original traits, THF was actually designed to collect items and escape more than DD.

JA
Sneak Attack <=> Steal
Trick Attack <=> Mug
Pick Treasure Coffers
Hide + Flee + Perfect Dodge => Escape mechanisms used in conjunction with Steal/Mug

Traits
Gilfinder <=> Triple Attack
TH1 <=> Assassin (Wasn't even an original trait; was added later)
TH2
A total of 8 Evasion Bonus/Resist Gravity Traits

So no, THF was actually skewed towards obtaining items and escaping (Often times, stuff that went hand-in-hand). Even more evident by the level on Striders.

The Existence of Non-DD abilities does not denote the Idea is was intended to be a DD.

Yes, we had abilities designed to Steal/escape, But they weren't what we were designed to do in parties. I'm quite sure SE didn't intend for THFs to use Flee and hide during a exp party and run in circles, right?

Gilfinder/TH can arguably help an exp party in some small way if you're fighting beastmen or mobs that drop decent items, But its clear these traits were designed for big game.

Also, Hide actually allows you to Sneak Attack from any direction, that had DD implications too. The existence of traits that fit classic THF (Steal, Mug) does not mean its role was not suppose to be a DD. I don't deny SE had other plans for THF than simply a DD, But a DD they were.

Its just today the gap between a Good THF and a Good WAR has widened to a point where the THF is largely undermined as a DD and defaults to TH whore. Closing the gap a tad won't nerf other jobs or make them less desirable.

my point being, THF in a party situation was designed as a DD, with implications toward Enmity control (TA). Their JT obviously role-play the job, but i don't think they were what SE intended the job to do in parties or endgame. I think their role was originally a DD, in fact i think their old Manifesto said that, to the point they were thinking of buffing Perfect Dodge to, when active, your attacks would do more damage from behind.

Their plans changed clearly, But it doesn't change the point at one point, earlier in the games life, We were designed as a DD, and a TH whore, where as today its just TH whore.

We're only asking for the gap in DD to be closed a little. That and if you read my other posts I'm leaning more towards useful utility anyway, Already plenty of DD..

Karbuncle

07-26-2011, 08:08 PM

Also

What kind of retards are you guys using to support your argument?

One bad egg on either side of the argument does not invalidate the argument itself. Most of us here know that each job is judged by their gear.

however, I'd be lying if, back in the day when i had TH3 only, that i wasn't asked to switch jobs because i didnt have TH4.

I'd be asked to change jobs to WAR or something so the TH4 THF in denali Bonnet and DEX rings could be on THF, despite my THF having far superior DD gear and would help us kill quicker. So a far inferior THF whos only marketable skill was owning 2 pieces of Armor and being completely gimp and useless in every other field was desired over a THF with TH3 even if that THF was perfect in every other field.

You could be a Mandau THF with perfect HQ Gear, and if you didn't have TH4? you were switching jobs to let a TH4 THF take your place.

I know his point, Even though its worded wrongly, It still a little F*cked up.

Edit:

Yugl

07-26-2011, 08:34 PM

The Existence of Non-DD abilities does not denote the Idea is was intended to be a DD.

Yes, we had abilities designed to Steal/escape, But they weren't what we were designed to do in parties. I'm quite sure SE didn't intend for THFs to use Flee and hide during a exp party and run in circles, right?

Gilfinder/TH can arguably help an exp party in some small way if you're fighting beastmen or mobs that drop decent items, But its clear these traits were designed for big game.

Also, Hide actually allows you to Sneak Attack from any direction, that had DD implications too. The existence of traits that fit classic THF (Steal, Mug) does not mean its role was not suppose to be a DD. I don't deny SE had other plans for THF than simply a DD, But a DD they were.

Its just today the gap between a Good THF and a Good WAR has widened to a point where the THF is largely undermined as a DD and defaults to TH whore. Closing the gap a tad won't nerf other jobs or make them less desirable.

my point being, THF in a party situation was designed as a DD, with implications toward Enmity control (TA). Their JT obviously role-play the job, but i don't think they were what SE intended the job to do in parties or endgame. I think their role was originally a DD, in fact i think their old Manifesto said that, to the point they were thinking of buffing Perfect Dodge to, when active, your attacks would do more damage from behind.

Their plans changed clearly, But it doesn't change the point at one point, earlier in the games life, We were designed as a DD, and a TH whore, where as today its just TH whore.

We're only asking for the gap in DD to be closed a little. That and if you read my other posts I'm leaning more towards useful utility anyway, Already plenty of DD..

You just stepped on your earlier argument though. You said "THF was originally supposed to be a DD" and supported that argument by listing traits and JAs designed for damage. However, I pointed out that you actually have more 'snatch and run' techniques than you do DD techniques. Hence, you cannot support your argument in that way. Also, I recall that hide's additional effect occurred in the same update as Assassin, which would mean it's not an original trait.

Moreover, you have to remember that SE modeled themselves after EverQuest's grinding system, so they would hesitate to improve TH extensively. Without room to improve these features of THF, what else were they going to do? At the time, THF was already considered a potent enfeebler via bolts (One of the few classes to take advantage of acid bolts).

however, I'd be lying if, back in the day when i had TH3 only, that i wasn't asked to switch jobs because i didnt have TH4.

I'd be asked to change jobs to WAR or something so the TH4 THF in denali Bonnet and DEX rings could be on THF, despite my THF having far superior DD gear and would help us kill quicker. So a far inferior THF whos only marketable skill was owning 2 pieces of Armor and being completely gimp and useless in every other field was desired over a THF with TH3 even if that THF was perfect in every other field.

You could be a Mandau THF with perfect HQ Gear, and if you didn't have TH4? you were switching jobs to let a TH4 THF take your place.

That makes total sense though. Who is better geared to do what they need to do? Well, what do they need to do? They need to make items drop. Who has better gear for making items drop? The TH4 THF. Anything else would be like evaluating a WHM based on their melee set. It's irrelevant to the point in question.

All i want is a reason to be in a party outside of TH. You and everyone else reading knows a THF's place in FFXI. We hit the mob, and we go the Fk away. Its how it was at 75, its how it is now (out of Abyssea), and on our current "Vision" Path, Its how it will be at 99. The only melee I've brought more often than a THF within the past few months is probably WAR, NIN, MNK, and BLU. The last one is primarily an AoE member. Reasons for bringing the other are irrelevant to DD except WAR, which is why I keep saying comparison to WAR is terrible since most DDs don't meet WAR's melee potential. DRG, PUP, BST, DRK, and SAM will sideline more than THF in abyssea. Outside, the situation is similar except for chest drop events (VW for example). In the case of BCNM style fights, who cares? *Any* melee can do those unless it calls for manaburn. "Oh, but you'll pick a WAR over us." Guess what? That applies to *every* other DD except in cases where evasion matters (And NIN + THF hoard that scene).

We are useless in a Endgame situation outside of Loot, and perhaps Killing ourselves (A.K.A Saccing).WHM is useless outside of healing. WAR is useless outside of meleeing. You should celebrate specialization.

When a job has no uses outside of TH, and the only other thing your party can think of having you do is killing yourself again and again *sac pulls* than theres something wrong with the job. I don't feel I'm asking too much. Give us some abilities that really make us contribute. No, there's a problem with your LS. Just recently, I mandated a THF (who meleed with me) to get Ambushers to drop for a friend. When the entire game revolves around loot, you cannot belittle the significance of TH. VW is the big step against this, but that's primarily because if VW style drops didn't exist, WAR THF BRD WHM + Excess would monopolize the scene.

This all seems rather meaningless when the Devs think Aura Steal on anything lower than 5 minutes would break the game, if they feel something like that is too powerful for THF we're all fked and we may as well just switch jobs like its been suggested, because this job is going nowhere and you may as well leave the "FFXI TH-Whore" to the Linkshell Mules like it was at 75.[/HB]Their responses were underwhelming.

Karbuncle

07-26-2011, 08:46 PM

You just stepped on your earlier argument though. You said "THF was originally supposed to be a DD" and supported that argument by listing traits and JAs designed for damage. However, I pointed out that you actually have more 'snatch and run' techniques than you do DD techniques. Hence, you cannot support your argument in that way. Also, I recall that hide's additional effect occurred in the same update as Assassin, which would mean it's not an original trait.

I can agree to this. But then we have to look at what THF was used for by the Community. I'd say people invited THF for 2 Reasons. 1) to DD (back in old school? SATA + Viper bite better than all, Magic burst freeze? yes), 2) Trick Attack. So we have 2 base roles. DD, and Enmity.

This just goes back to THF being mislead as they leveled earlier in the game, Today its more obvious (Except maybe to people who don't research all the time), But back then when you leveled THF you expected to hit 75 DD'ing and helping Enmity with Trick Attack, In reality you were a TH whore.

I don't deny the amazingness of our one unique Specialty, I just want a Specialty that lasts more than 1 Melee hit.

Moreover, you have to remember that SE modeled themselves after EverQuest's grinding system, so they would hesitate to improve TH extensively. Without room to improve these features of THF, what else were they going to do? At the time, THF was already considered a potent enfeebler via bolts (One of the few classes to take advantage of acid bolts).

No i don't really remember SE modeling them off EverQuest... Either Way you bring up another point I would like THF to expand on. Give us more ways to hinder/hurt a mob, Even if its through increases other players. Like i listed a while back, a JA that increases Debuff potency on a mob, Or increases Damage dealt to the target for a small window, Stuff that gives us a use for the other 10 minutes of a fight.

That makes total sense though. Who is better geared to do what they need to do? Well, what do they need to do? They need to make items drop. Who has better gear for making items drop? The TH4 THF. Anything else would be like evaluating a WHM based on their melee set. It's irrelevant to the point in question.

This is where our Opinions Differ. No other job in the game was completely rejected for 1 piece of armor. If your WAR didn't have Dusk+1, You'd still invite him to DD. Point was THF was completely judged based on those 2 single pieces of Armor, no other job in the game was judged this harshly.

and its all because THF was useless (in the communities eyes) outside of TH. I'm pointing out the Extremes of it. Of course you would check most people gear first, But if someone was a little less than perfect they'd be acceptable.

I have a feeling I know where you'll take this from here but i'll stop and respond to that when the time comes... :X

WHM is useless outside of healing. WAR is useless outside of meleeing. You should celebrate specialization.

Yah, But all those things you described keep your attention during a fight. TH can be effectively done by hitting the mob once. You can upgrade it via melee, but the effect chance is so low its not worth it (especially on say, Voidwatch where you'll likely die from AoEs, Cause too much TP feed because SE thinks Subtle Blow job Trait would be too broken for THF, or be an MP sink), So you hit the mob, then default to using SA and TA every minute for a chance to upgrade.

Which i admit is a little more than nothing. So i do concede there.

Still, WHM may only be good for curing (which is bull itself, They have Pro/Shell V at higher potency, and Barspells at higher potency/unique buff to them), but they cure the entire fight. They can even go as far as haste cycles if a RDM isn't covering it. they have something to contribute the entire fight.

Same goes for WAR, they DD the entire fight, They're actively participating int he event in a meaningful way that isn't generally regarded as "Worthless damage that feeds too much TP".

I'm not undermining Treasure Hunter, In fact I've mentioned a thousand times i like it and I know its what keeps our job afloat (which is a big thing), I'm simply asking for more than just TH.

Their responses were underwhelming.

yes, yes they were.

I still appreciate them though...

Edit: whoops

No, there's a problem with your LS. Just recently, I mandated a THF (who meleed with me) to get Ambushers to drop for a friend. When the entire game revolves around loot, you cannot belittle the significance of TH. VW is the big step against this, but that's primarily because if VW style drops didn't exist, WAR THF BRD WHM + Excess would monopolize the scene.

I Don't belittle Treasure hunter in any way, I like the Ability, I acknowledge its the only thing keeping our job relevant, I just want other reasons for our relevance. Thats not asking too much

Edit: And to be frank you'd have almost no chance at Ambusher's hose without Blue proc, If you had to pick a THF+WHM, or a MNK+WHM to get Ambusher's Hose, what would you chose? The MNK, because on Blunt he can do every Blue proc, which ups the drop rate of Ambusher's hose far far more significantly.

Of course you can bring both, I won't deny that, Just trying to show you that TH is not as bad-ass as it used to be, Because All Current endgame events (Save neo-dynamis) have actions that effect drops far better than TH could hope too.

And if the game continues down paths similar to Voidwatch, Where TH is actually completely useless outside of upping lights by an amount you could already do with procs, It will phase THF out entirely.

Its still an amazing Ability, I'm just worried with our current path in the future not even TH will save the job.

Alaik

07-26-2011, 09:47 PM

People who think TH is just as important as !!! proc's: awesome.

People who think THF should be the worst DD due to daggers: lol. DRK should always have endeath then, except on massive mobs cause a giant scythe to the head would kill birds, bugards, crabs, raptors, spiders, etc, etc, etc. See how f***ing retarded it is to base a game's damage potential off of real physics? In fact I state WAR, DRG, DRK, SAM and ESPECIALLY RNG should all have 100% endeath. Oh, and if there's 2 mobs in a direct line in front of the RNG, he should OHKO them both. Bullets go through people, after all and we can't have someone with a freaking SWORD doing more damage than a gun, anyone who took a history class knows that's unrealistic.

Seriously, I don't want THF to be a broken DD but that is one of the weakest forms of logic for a game ever, and if SE was dumb enough to follow it, we'd all be RNGs, the end.

PS: That 2H update? Guess what, it was due to 1 handed DDs (THF, MNK, NIN, WAR with axes especially) beating 2H. The only difference now is SE has refused to address that 2Hs now roflstomp 1Hs.

Current endgame content has TH relevant on the new HNMs, anything else it has 1.) no effect. 2.) diminished effect (Voidwatch) or 3.) Less effect than !!!

Guess what, it was found out shortly after the abyssea expansion that for everything outside of empyrean drops, the proc is better than TH. If you have ever spent time farming Loki's Kaftans and tried one with just blue and one with just TH you know the damn difference. Yes, you can bring both but if you have a MNK/WHM duo looking to add one person for drops, they're going to take the BLM for AF items, or the WAR for KIs, etc.

Low manning is the name of the game now, and rightfully so.

@Karbuncle: Neo Dynamis, last I checked, the proc system still helped more than TH, vastly so.

I'm not even touching the "TH is a golden ticket" shit again, no one who is capable of typing is stupid enough to believe any THF can get into any event scott free. I refuse to believe we can make quark-gluon plasma yet can't see simple shit about a video game.

Karbuncle

07-26-2011, 10:25 PM

The reason i didn't clump Dynamis in it is because Procing simply raises the drop rate to what it was in old dynamis, and thusly TH is quite effect still. But yah, right down to it Proc >>>>>>> Th there too when you get down to it.

Having both is ideal but its hardly an ideal world, and when it gets down to it if you have to chose between a Proc job, or a THF, Irs proc job.

Dynamis is also an exception because THF can proc. Magic(THF/NIN), WS, or JA (THF/DNC best for that).

Trying to acknowledge TH is great but also acknowledging its far less "great" than it was at level 75 is difficult to convey.

Laphine

07-26-2011, 11:34 PM

Nebo

07-27-2011, 12:11 AM

My point is that for virtually every job, when filling a role, the 1st thing you look for is who is better at the job and that difference is skill based. For thf, you ask "Who has TH6?".

What kind of retards are you guys using to support your argument? Melee is even more gear dependent and less skill dependent than THF.

That depends, what special kind of retard are you? Are you really trying to argue that TH'ing a mob is skill dependant?

Lack of difference between two people with TH6 is a fault of the TH augment system more than THF's general melee capabilities.

OK, no you aren't, you are agreeing with me. Did you read that post you quoted?

When you ask who is better at melee, it's not just SAM1 v SAM2. It's WAR v SAM v DRG v DRK v RNG v MNK v PUP? v BST. Furthermore, when you do get an equal comparison, it's who has better gear. Sound familiar?!

This is a fallacy. You don't get an equal comparison when playing with individuals. You get the guy that maybe WS's at ~180% if he remembers to. Doesn't eat proper food. Might not have a clue how to land his procs clean. Does he have the combat skills leveled, with the weapons to trigger all the weaknesses his job can? Is he flexible? Does he know how to react to various situations? Does he even have PDT/MDT sets if things go south?

Obviously this is is gear dependant, but you are only making my point here. It's about multiple gear swaps for many different situations with the knowledge and skill to use them with appropriate timing. It is an active process that takes a bit of knowledge, skill, rare gear collection.

Applying TH is non of that. It is a passive trait. All the pieces are stupid easy to obtain. No one cares what you do, or what other gear you have. As long as you have TH6. You can literally main hand a THF knife, nothing in the offhand, be wearing nothing but the hands and feet and still do your job the exact same. You either have TH6 or you don't. Beyond that, a discussion of player skill never enters the equation for bringing TH.

Even when at their peak, it just meant THF was no longer supreme in all aspects (Though still monopolizing the "TH maker" role in some situations).

THF was supreme in all aspects? When was this?

You heard it here folks! Only WAR can use PDT+MDT sets even though THF has better access to MDT than WAR.

Actually, they can both reach the -50% MDT cap with gear and shellra V so...no. They don't. The point of that was in response to the comment that "THF should not get updates and is fine because it is a defensive job." Which is not true.

The only point you got correct in that post was the proc!! system undermining TH for VW, but most complaints in this thread don't echo that as much as they complain about WAR (Which is a problem of WAR, not a fault of THF since almost every class can point to WAR at this point and scream overpowered).

This is why I think you aren't reading what is being written. No one is crying "overpowered" at WAR. That comparison I used to THF damage compared to other WAR DD can be used for any other DD.

In the DD department, we are not saying we want to be the best, or on top of the pile, or a heavy-DD or any herp a derp nonesense. What we HAVE been saying for quite a while now is that the gap is currently too large.

Especially given that our enmity utility is not useful to anyone, from the response we just got, our steal abilities are going to stay useless because SE is afraid of them. And Treasure Hunter is going to remain marginalized due to Weakness trigger procs, and being given away to other jobs.

Going by the original traits, THF was actually designed to collect items and escape more than DD.

JA
Sneak Attack <=> Steal
Trick Attack <=> Mug
Pick Treasure Coffers
Hide + Flee + Perfect Dodge => Escape mechanisms used in conjunction with Steal/Mug

Traits
Gilfinder <=> Triple Attack
TH1 <=> Assassin (Wasn't even an original trait; was added later)
TH2
A total of 8 Evasion Bonus/Resist Gravity Traits

So no, THF was actually skewed towards obtaining items and escaping (Often times, stuff that went hand-in-hand). Even more evident by the level on Striders.

Actually THF was skewed towards parties with tanks, SATA lines, closing distortion skillchains and raping faces with......DAMAGE!!!!! YAY!!!!!! SATA damage and stacking WS was a MUCH bigger relative damage payoff than it is today. THF was a great DD for all of its early life.

Going from the origional description of the job...SE described THF as a "stealthy attacker," that looks for the perfect opportunity to attack from behind and suprise its enemies.

And we've been over this about a million times on this forum. You are barking up a very wrong tree if you are trying to argue things like gilfinder, steal, despoil, mug, coffer picking to help your case. All of these things were taken away or made useless because SE is afraid of them. Whatever their "vision" for the job was then, it has most certainly changed.

Karbuncle

07-27-2011, 12:15 AM

i keep waiting for Yugl's response because I like debating with him :(

Reaux

07-27-2011, 12:28 AM

While I appreciate the feedback I have some qualms....

By adding attractive items to monsters, we fear that it would be re-creating the scenario from the past regarding beastcoins (stealing and then hiding right after), making this pretty difficult to implement. If there were a good countermeasure for this it could work, but currently revamping or adding items to monsters is quite difficult.

This only works on mobs that track only by sight. Many mobs in recent additions track by multiple avenues, the high recast for Steal and Despoil make neither of them a viable option. Steal is a THF ability that defines the job and it seems the tactic to balance it is to not add worthwhile items to Steal and have a high recast as well as limiting what we/if we can steal from NMs?

That’s what Aura Steal is for! The effects stolen by Aura Steal are essentially the raw stats that the monster possesses.

We believe making Aura Steal a separate ability would be over-powered. If we did do this, it’s likely that its use on notorious monsters would be removed and it would have even less of an effect than it does now.

Allowing us to Dispell effects while simultaneously buffing ourselves is over powered? Most mage jobs have the ability to do both with much smaller recast times. I could see that the concern would be the unique buffs we could steal, but the duration of them is short. With additions of items like Brews that allows us to willingly break all parameters why would this be any different? Also, when compared to jobs like NIN that can effectively escape damage all together that would kill them normally via Ninjutsu I would rethink what being overpowered really is. It could easily be controlled by changing the buffs we can Steal altogether, as not all effects can be dispelled as is.

Though we haven’t decided if it will be Aura Steal or not, we do have some rough plans for adding some kind of additional effect to Despoil.

Why not just give us a separate Dispell or Enfeeble ability? Why do they need to be tied to Stealing abilities with arbitrary conditions?

We are looking into separating the two. However, we are close to reaching a point where there are too many recast timers going on simultaneously, so this isn't something we can implement right away.

Every spell in the game has its own recast timer. Why would separating these abilities be that much more taxing than a WHM or BLM recast timers? Melee jobs as it is have far fewer abilities to use than any spell casting job. THF outright ignores most of its abilities anyway. Steal and Despoil are rarely used by anyone. Accomplice and Collaborator are far too situational to be used regularly, and with party setups that require a full alliance sometimes to defeat an NM they are used even less...add in that we can only target 5/18 members in the alliance the ability is further pushed back from use.

Due to the fact that normal attacks now increase the effects of Treasure Hunter, we chose to forgo the addition of Subtle Blow as a trade off.

This is probably the only thing I can understand and agree on as we get subtle blow from the support jobs we generally use on THF and the use of Conspirator.

Again while I appreciate the response, it is obvious that much of the vision is being made useless by the type of game we are currently playing. If THF is to be a hate controller then we need to go back to NMs that are killable by parties of 6 or increase the need for hate management while expanding our abilities to be used on members within the alliance. While I enjoy the increase in TH as much as the next guy I feel it is our only defining characteristic anymore and it is becoming useless. We can no longer keep up as a DD, we have no use of support abilities in most parties, and many items are not as effected by TH as they are by the triggers.

While I don't I see what you want us to become, and I enjoy the vision very much, the implementation of it won't be feasible with the situations the gameplay is currently heading towards. The reasoning behind many of what was said above are also, let us call them what they are, poor excuses for not knowing how to fix something or change it. Or it may even be a case of lack of motivation to do so. However, I don't think lack of motivation is the dev teams problem, just lack of insight and understanding maybe even inspiration.

Alaik

07-27-2011, 12:31 AM

Why TH keeps coming back as an argument? Of course it is a golden ticket, of course it makes THF one of the most desired jobs. But its importance is decreasing over time. Abyssea decreased it somewhat and now voidwatch (the future of endgame) made it completely irrelevant.

Even if TH remained fully relevant, the fact is its mechanics would still be broken. The passive aspect of this trait is the reason we "THF main" don't like the concept of THF=TH. If TH was fun, if it was skill based, things would probably have been different. We, the players, want something that makes us keep playing. We don't want to get bored. TH never contributed with this in our history.

That and it's not a golden ticket. Unless you're the only THF around with max level TH, and if you don't have max level TH it's not. People generally bring one THF and only for TH, and once that quota is filled, no more THFs are getting in.

A golden ticket implies you can get into any lucrative event you want, no questions asked. If I was the biggest suck up to all my bosses, and there was some trite training that took 2 hours and gave me an additional 10,000 a year, and I knew straight up I was getting in because I wanted to and the higher ups loved me, their bias is a golden ticket. I want the training/raise, I get it. If a project me and 3 other guys are working on fails, I don't get the blame, I have a golden ticket.

A golden ticket is NOT "Hey Boss I want in on this training." "Oh, we already have one suck up with nice hands, boots and a letter opener, sorry." because it didn't get you in at all. In fact given how popular thief is (It's on the decline however in the last few censuses) it's highly likely max TH is already present and you will be told to swap to another job if you have another more liked one. WAR, BLM, MNK, NIN, DNC, BRD, COR, etc, etc.

New idea: Give PLD treasure hunter and remove it from us, a reason to bring a PLD, they can still tank and SE can put the no DPS buffs on a tank class instead of a DPS. *Sarcasm, before anyone goes all ragey because they can't detect sarcasm*

I get that people are saying if you're the one thief around with max TH you'll be allowed to come. But if you're the one DD or good support around that's smart and geared properly you are too, I'm sure. You're also allowed to do more than 2 abilities and duplicates of other jobs are very rarely considered pointless.

Having a second MNK is never considered worthless, they can engage as well or pop a second NM. Another BLM means faster procs or farming time while the other 2-3 kill a NM. No one ever complains about a second Bard. The only other role people were happy with just one of was a tank, and no one uses a traditional tank anymore either.

Hell, even back in 2005 when MNKs Chi Blasted Kirin it was more fun than this.

tl;dr people really need to think about th's relation to thf and their invites or lack thereof and compare it to any other situation they would use the term golden ticket. Unless your syntax is really weird, you'll get what I mean after you try it.