Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[Alaik]

Oh I see...

Well, do what most other rational people do and read the actual data. What they're saying is true, backed up by numbers.

[DebbieGibson]

Well, do what most other rational people do and read the actual data. What they're saying is true, backed up by numbers.

There's no numbers saying that TH9 is the same as TH2. You can't eyeball such small percentages. Just because it isn't noticeable doesn't mean it doesn't work.

[SpankWustler]

Would comparing a Thief's drop rates against a level 90+ Dipper Yuly's drop rates be a good way to determine if Treasure Hunter beyond 3 is worthwhile, since the effete insect and it's master would kill weak stuff significantly faster and with more ease than a melee stuck subbing Thief?

I shudder to think what the sample size would have to be, but I'd be willing to kill a lot of pink birds and record the results if it would be helpful. It would probably need to wait until after the level cap is 95, though, to eliminate any chance of a level 89 ladybug mucking up the results.

Edit: I'd just be the doing the Dipper Yuly bit, to be really clear. I'd have to rely on someone else to provide Thief drop rates from 900000000000000000000000 and two pink birds.

[FrankReynolds]

There's no numbers saying that TH9 is the same as TH2. You can't eyeball such small percentages. Just because it isn't noticeable doesn't mean it doesn't work.

You are missing the point. If treasure hunter 2 is an obvious boost to drops ..... and treasure hunter 9 is such a trivial increase to drops that you have to kill hundreds of monsters to even know if its real...... then why bother with bringing a thief main?

I was stating that it should be the other way around. People should see barely any effect from treasure hunter 2, and a huge increase from treasure hunter 9. Furthermore, they shouldn't be using treasure hunter as an excuse for thief being weak in other areas, when anyone that subs thief gets increases in drops that are indistinguishable from treasure hunter applied by a thief.

[Alaik]

There's no numbers saying that TH9 is the same as TH2. You can't eyeball such small percentages. Just because it isn't noticeable doesn't mean it doesn't work.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12798-Treasure-Hunter-Testing

That took almost 10 seconds to get. If you've taken a statistics class you should know the sample size is enough to base a general impression about. It won't be accurate at the current data input rate for another week or two, at least in terms of <5% margin of error. Either way, yeah, guess what, the statements are not 100% correct, but they are more correct than your's.

[DebbieGibson]

You are missing the point. If treasure hunter 2 is an obvious boost to drops ..... and treasure hunter 9 is such a trivial increase to drops that you have to kill hundreds of monsters to even know if its real...... then why bother with bringing a thief main?

I was stating that it should be the other way around. People should see barely any effect from treasure hunter 2, and a huge increase from treasure hunter 9. Furthermore, they shouldn't be using treasure hunter as an excuse for thief being weak in other areas, when anyone that subs thief gets increases in drops that are indistinguishable from treasure hunter applied by a thief.

Because an increase from 10% to 15% is both unnoticeable and at the same time a massive boost. That is more effective than all the damage in the game and is absolute justification for making thf do crap dmg.

You keep assuming th9 does nothing compared to th2 and that iisnt proven at all.

[DebbieGibson]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12798-Treasure-Hunter-Testing

That took almost 10 seconds to get. If you've taken a statistics class you should know the sample size is enough to base a general impression about. It won't be accurate at the current data input rate for another week or two, at least in terms of <5% margin of error. Either way, yeah, guess what, the statements are not 100% correct, but they are more correct than your's.

That thread shows nothing at aall about the effecrs of th9 vs th2. There is currently nothing showing that th9 has no effect over th2

[Alaik]

That thread shows nothing at aall about the effecrs of th9 vs th2. There is currently nothing showing that th9 has no effect over th2

Page 5, post 47. There's mention of more as well.

Also in a later post about THF rolling (Which is TH6+ I believe, not 100% sure but I want to say he was using the 3 TH items) he actually got LESS. Which is of course due to a smaller sample size but again, statistics, 100 is sufficient for a broad general impression.

[DebbieGibson]

Page 5, post 47. There's mention of more as well.

Also in a later post about THF rolling (Which is TH6+ I believe, not 100% sure but I want to say he was using the 3 TH items) he actually got LESS. Which is of course due to a smaller sample size but again, statistics, 100 is sufficient for a broad general impression.

It says nothing about th9, sorry. And we dont eeven know if theres caps and floors to drop rates that can be affecting it.

[Insaniac]

It says nothing about th9, sorry. And we dont eeven know if theres caps and floors to drop rates that can be affecting it.
If there is a cap that is the absolute worst case scenario and a floor would be the base drop rate. You are still missing the point.

Curing is the only thing that sets WHM apart at all. It is heads and tails above anyone else capable of curing. WHM is the king of cures.

TH is the only thing that sets THF apart at all. It's TH abilities over those of RNG BST or anyone /THF are as of now unable to be nailed down or even discerned. THF is the shift manager of TH.

[FANCY60]

i aggree thf should get abilities that enhances their assassin traits which is what its all about or make mug do crazy dmg like in ff of the past

[DebbieGibson]

If there is a cap that is the absolute worst case scenario and a floor would be the base drop rate. You are still missing the point.

Curing is the only thing that sets WHM apart at all. It is heads and tails above anyone else capable of curing. WHM is the king of cures.

TH is the only thing that sets THF apart at all. It's TH abilities over those of RNG BST or anyone /THF are as of now unable to be nailed down or even discerned. THF is the shift manager of TH.

Take a mob that has a 5% droprate on some item with TH2, say now that TH10 gives you a 10% droprate. If you needed 50 of these items from this monster, you've now gone from having to kill it 1000 times to 500 times. This is a stupid broken benefit and it's quite possible TH can do this, there's been nothing that proves or shows that it can't/doesn't.

Diorite is a terrible test subject in my opinion because it is a pop item in a pop system and therefore it's possible SE has a low droprate ceiling for it in order to facilitate the amount of crowding they want on through higher tiers of that system. Byakko's haidate would be a much better test, or anything that is actual gear, really, rather than pop items and crafting ingredients.

[Insaniac]

So you're suggesting someone kill 100+ byakkos? If SE puts a cap on anything that they want to remain rare then TH might as well not exist.

Somehow you are STILL missing the point. TH+ does not -->DOES NOT<-- work like that. From the numbers myself and others have recorded there is simply no way. It's impossible that it's a static increase capable of making a 1% drop rate into a 11% drop rate. Ridill's new drop rate is sub 2%. 9/10 fafnirs killed are killed with TH9-10. If TH+ worked in any way shape or form like you suggest then ridill would have a minimum of a 9-10% drop rate and that's assuming its base drop rate is .01%. And if you say that there is a cap on ridill drop rates then I ask you again, wtf would the point of bringing TH for the sake of getting a rare drop?

I don't know what else to say to you. We have numbers in the other thread that show th+ to have almost no effect on multiple different drops but all you keep saying "but maybe it does did you ever think of that?" Yes we did think of that. That's why we are in the process of trying to show some noticeable difference.

Now before you go back to one of your other points I want to refer you to the fact that we can know the margins of error based on our sample sizes and you don't need a 10,000 kill sample to prove the lack of a significant increase. You would only need something like 10k kills to nail down an almost exact number. It's pretty easy to see from the data we've collected so far that a THFs TH is not noticeably better than a /THFs TH. <<<----- Please take note of that. That is the concern here. TH is the bread an butter of THF. The only thing keeping it relevant. Just as a WHMs superior curing ability is what keeps them relevant. The difference is that a WHM is a vastly better healer than the next best option. THFs TH ability above the other options are not only insignificant but we have yet to find any proof of their existence. Therefor not making TH a good reason to gimp the other aspectsof the job to the level that they have been gimped.

[FrankReynolds]

Diorite is a terrible test subject in my opinion because it is a pop item in a pop system and therefore it's possible SE has a low droprate ceiling for it in order to facilitate the amount of crowding they want on through higher tiers of that system. Byakko's haidate would be a much better test, or anything that is actual gear, really, rather than pop items and crafting ingredients.

If they did that....Why wouldn't they cap the drop rate on haidates or w/e other rare drop that you can come up with in the same fashion? this seems like a pretty far-fetched and unlikely to be proven theory. Even if you prove that dio drops are capped, that would likely cause people to think that all r/e items may be capped until proven otherwise, further decreasing the perceived usefulness of bringing a thief to proc TH in higher tiers.

If I proc yellow, I see immediate visible increase in drop rate.

If W/E job Procs TH on the mob I see another obvious increase in drop rate.

If a thief procs up to TH10 on 10000 different mobs, we might be able to prove there is a significant increase in drop rate......

see the problem?

[Byrth]

You guys should go play BRD/THF. Sing two Mambos when you want to be evasive.

[Insaniac]

You guys should go play BRD/THF. Sing two Mambos when you want to be evasive. Nah I'll just use atma of dread and a +1 TH sash and sub something useful.

[FrankReynolds]

Hmmm. not a bad idea, I do need to level bard on my main. Battle bard RAWR!

[Byrth]

Nah I'll just use atma of dread and a +1 TH sash and sub something useful.

As far as I know, there hasn't been any testing on TH+2 vs. TH2. I'd assume that TH2 is very different from TH+2 though.

[Arcon]

As far as I know, there hasn't been any testing on TH+2 vs. TH2. I'd assume that TH2 is very different from TH+2 though.

I'd love for someone to test those, because I believe they're the same XD Unfortunately I have neither Dread Atma nor an augmented Tarutaru Sash, or my WAR would go nuts with those.

[Insaniac]

As far as I know, there hasn't been any testing on TH+2 vs. TH2. I'd assume that TH2 is very different from TH+2 though.
Yeah I'm just assuming the worst. Seems to be the only way to not go into full rage mode these days

[DebbieGibson]

Somehow you are STILL missing the point. TH+ does not -->DOES NOT<-- work like that.

You don't know how it works lol. There can be caps and floors you aren't aware of. It could be far more complex than you're assuming. It could only work on some drops and not others. You have nfc how it works.

[DebbieGibson]

see the problem?

The problem is extrapolating assumptions from useful data that in reality only pertains to the single test. We know that on colibri feathers, TH3 does nothing over TH2. We know, possibly, that on diorite, TH2 equal to TH6-7. That is it, that is all we know, you can't make assumptions about other things from those two tests.

[Insaniac]

Then I repeat. If SE can just arbitrarily set caps on drop rates then wtf is the point of treasure hunter. They would just set drop rates to be what they want them to be. You seem to be the one who has "nfc" how it works because the stuff you are suggesting makes no sense. All previous TH testing points to rerolls for TH1 and 2 and ???? for TH3. We don't know exactly how all of it works but we do actually have a clue where as you certainly do not. And FFS stop saying they could set floors. The minimum drop rate something can have is it's base drop rate not a "floor". There's no such thing as TH- gear that would require the existence of a "floor" lol. You just look silly when you say that.

[Nebo]

The problem is extrapolating assumptions from useful data that in reality only pertains to the single test. We know that on colibri feathers, TH3 does nothing over TH2. We know, possibly, that on diorite, TH2 equal to TH6-7. That is it, that is all we know, you can't make assumptions about other things from those two tests.

Even if you were right about this (you aren't), that would mean that TH+ just simply has no effect on a number of things.....

....how is that in any way something NOT to be pissed off about?

Bringing a WHM/THF gets you the same drop on diorite as a THF main? As if THF utility, as a job needed to be more marginalized.

If what you are saying is true, bringing a THF is pointless on anything they feel was deemed to be worthy of such a droprate cap, and TH becomes as useless as steal...effective for a chance at getting useless fodder items but can't get you anything of rarity or value?

[Insaniac]

The problem is extrapolating assumptions from useful data that in reality only pertains to the single test. We know that on colibri feathers, TH3 does nothing over TH2. We know, possibly, that on diorite, TH2 equal to TH6-7. That is it, that is all we know, you can't make assumptions about other things from those two tests.
And mythril ores and golem shards and raxa and ridills right? Maybe the only 2 mobs in the game with TH caps are Aura statues and Lesser colibris!?! I guess to prove anything we need a 1000 kill sample from every mob in the game?

[Byrth]

WHM/THF is pretty awesome. Even outside Abyssea it's not hard to keep MP with some Refresh gear and AF3+2 legs.

[Insaniac]

And SA spirit taker!

[DebbieGibson]

And mythril ores and golem shards and raxa and ridills right? Maybe the only 2 mobs in the game with TH caps are Aura statues and Lesser colibris!?! I guess to prove anything we need a 1000 kill sample from every mob in the game?

Technically you would yes(though not 1000 kills, depends on the loot droprate), unless SE comes out and tells us how it works. Also keep in mind that is older content. Why don't you try on something like Awahondo?

[FrankReynolds]

Technically you would yes(though not 1000 kills, depends on the loot droprate), unless SE comes out and tells us how it works. Also keep in mind that is older content. Why don't you try on something like Awahondo?

Do you still think the world is flat?

[DebbieGibson]

Do you still think the world is flat?

No, and you can't assume th is broken on everything just because th3+ doesnt affect colibri feathers and possibly diorite. I'm just as hopeful as tthe rest of you that thf main is indeed useless but you can't say its broken on everything just from the one example we have so far.

[Zirael]

Guys, you've been trolled for like last 5 pages by now, plz /ignorelist and move on. Debbie has been told to gtho from all other threads, so he's feeding here now.
What's the point discussing with 7-yo RDM1?

[FrankReynolds]

Guys, you've been trolled for like last 5 pages by now, plz /ignorelist and move on. Debbie has been told to gtho from all other threads, so he's feeding here now.
What's the point discussing with 7-yo RDM1?

Actually, your right. just read some other threads. moving on.

[Alaik]

Guys, you've been trolled for like last 5 pages by now, plz /ignorelist and move on. Debbie has been told to gtho from all other threads, so he's feeding here now.
What's the point discussing with 7-yo RDM1?

Ditto. I feel ashamed, I should have known no one could be THAT dumb.

[Karbuncle]

Well at least all of this was interesting for me to read and a nice way to burn 10 minutes.

As far as TH Testing goes, I'll try to make an effort to mass-farm some popular enemies and take down their drop rates... i think Dynamis might be a good place to start.

when i do Dynamis, I'll record all of my Drops rates as BST/DNC (Dipper Yuly, Assuming TH2) Vs when i go THF Main. Dynamis seems like the perfect spot to test this with how many drops are there (Relic, Relic weapons, Currency, Synth Mats).

I'll posti t in the TH Testing thread when i get enough data.

[Insaniac]

Yuly actually has TH3 supposedly. I guess someone procced to TH4 with bounty shot after Yuly planted TH.

[Vold]

Diorite is a terrible test subject in my opinion because it is a pop item in a pop system and therefore it's possible SE has a low droprate ceiling for it in order to facilitate the amount of crowding they want on through higher tiers of that system. Byakko's haidate would be a much better test, or anything that is actual gear, really, rather than pop items and crafting ingredients.I had 3 diorites in my pool last night during thf/nin testing. That good enough for you?

It's hardly diorite testing at this point anymore. It's obvious it got a drop rate boost. It's more about everything else those statues drop. I also have a need to mass farm them for the diorites. And byakko isn't something I can really test on because I'd need another THF for certain to be able to SA often for procs. I think so far the best I've seen on Byakko is maybe TH8. I rarely proc it as solo THF DPS. But sure, okay, I'll keep track of Byakko kills. I'll slow kill him for procs even though it'll take for fricking ever. I'll even kill his ass on WAR for TH2 vs TH6+ comparisons. He'll probably be the easiest of the bunch to kill on WAR. I wouldn't dare try the others with RDM cures and little evasion. Might get killed, might not. I just know I can nearly duo Kirin now with WHM and probably will when I stop goofing up my attempts at doing it, like forgetting a buff or food or whatever. Last time he hit me with quake and used AF like instantly to kill me by the skin of his teeth before cure could land...

[Karbuncle]

Yuly actually has TH3 supposedly. I guess someone procced to TH4 with bounty shot after Yuly planted TH.

It does. For the sake of the Test I'll likely assume TH3 though, Since there will be 2 of us.

[FANCY60]

we need ability to compliment the assassin in thfs like backstab, side step, short range teleport or something of that nature

[Vortex]

we need ability to compliment the assassin in thfs like backstab, side step, short range teleport or something of that nature

THF already has those abilites, they are called Sneak attack (back stab) Trick attack or hide if you want to get techinal
(side step) short range teleport? that actually makes no sense. what possible use does that have.

[Karbuncle]

I believe their "idea" was to have you warp to the back of the mob and SA instantly. But that idea wouldn't work well in FFXI...

[Kysaiana]

I honestly wish they would add a job trait similar to Assassin, but it allowed you to use SA from any side of the mob as long as you don't currently have the mob's attention. I'm sure others have suggested this before.

[Catmato]

Thank you Camate for relaying our concerns to the dev deam. I'm glad we'll be able to upgrade TH with stacked WSs now. That should be a big help. I do have an issue with this though:


Depending on how many players are in the battle, the rate of intimidation will increase.

Could you relay to them that making more THF abilities useless when solo is ridiculous? Currently while soloing, 8 of our 13 job abilities have no effect whatsoever. Adding a new ability that might stop 1-2 attacks every three minutes is not the right direction.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, i do kind of hate that, with our evasion, THF can make a pretty decent solo job on THF/DNC on weaker content... But almost every ability we have is fundamentally worthless unless we're grouped. I think the entire Thief job is just royally bone beyond repair thanks to the job itself being one big design flaw. The amount of time it would take to fix the job is simply not within realistic reach. We have nearly no abilities that work well solo.

Not that being in a group is a bad thing, But its naive and ignorant to think everything is done in parties of 6 with a real tank. A lot of the game is devoid of that content, even with Voidwatch, stuff like Dynamis and Limbus will still be relevant for Relics and Stuff like Brutal Earring, and those are generally low manned...

Still, The entire idea of a job that helps drop rates in itself is a huge design flaw in an MMORPG, Nothing should increase drops except what we do in battle (Think SCNMs, Where killing xx mobs yielded better rewards). a type of proc system or something done in battle to increase drop rate, should have been in FF since day 1, and Treasure Hunter should not exist.

Wishful thinking at this stage of the game, Maybe FFXIV will learn from this mistake and never condemn a job to TH whore by creating a job with the ability to enhance drop rates.

But this is just one mans rantings. Camate is doing a lot for us, Sometimes i wish he was on the Dev team.

[FrankReynolds]

they should have given every job an equal chance to proc as well. The crap in abbysea is pretty lame.

[RygaenYuui]

I honestly wish they would add a job trait similar to Assassin, but it allowed you to use SA from any side of the mob as long as you don't currently have the mob's attention. I'm sure others have suggested this before.

A trait that increases the flanking range of when Sneak Attack lands would be tremendously helpful when we're trying to land spike damage, even in larger parties where enmity bounces. It'd be a godsend, honestly.

Either that, or lowering the recast timer and getting rid of the restrictions for Hide+SA, since stacking both makes it so that SA lands from any direction at that point.

[Nebo]

A trait that increases the flanking range of when Sneak Attack lands would be tremendously helpful when we're trying to land spike damage, even in larger parties where enmity bounces. It'd be a godsend, honestly.

I wonder if they would reconsider this nerf now and change their thinking. The range for landing sneak attack actually used to be much larger (you could land it from the side). But it was viewed to be too powerful for some crazy reason and nerfed accordingly.

[Insaniac]

I still don't understand the gimping of THF JAs in solo and low man settings. There are already more powerful soloers and low man tanks.

[RygaenYuui]

I remember the nerf (the constant nerfs from Sneak Attack, Steal for RMT countermeasures I guess, TP gain nerf since we were easily out-damaging 2H weapon jobs.) And it makes sense at lower levels that this would be a problem or an issue, but since the rules for enmity and the like have changed, and closing Skillchains w/ TA are no longer a staple to keeping hate on tanks anymore (contrary to popular belief, this is a pretty awesome tactic, but people would rather spam WSes anyhow for damage), you would think that something would have to give.

Lower levels, you want most players to understand the basics of the game. Generally it was required that you consider positioning when you're fighting regardless what level you were at; THF is so heavily dependent on positioning that if people decide to ignore it or if the situation does not allow it, then our output will suffer for other people's lack of concern or knowledge.

It would make sense that at a higher level a THF would develop a wider flanking range for backstabbing or at least some heavier multiplier for SA or allowing SA to be carried over to multiple hits or Double Backstabs (Of course Dev team would definitely think that idea is completely absurd, since they think that actually allowing THF signature skills more lead way would cause imbalance in the game); Maybe that's the difference between most Western RPGs and Japanese RPGs when it comes to this concept.

[Laphine]

I really don't mind that we are less effective solo. Imo though, our party aspect really is weakish considering this trade-off. We go from 0 utility solo to something just a bit higher with a party.

So yeah, i like ideas that increase sa/ta efficacy, specially because they didn't change at all from lv15/30 to lv99. If the dex/crit bonus on SA could affect triple attack (on ws too) it would be the juiciest of the juices lol. But really, not receiving something like SA2/TA2 is crazy. Even drg got some love - a job that from 50-75 was essentially dead in terms of new JA/traits (not counting merits). So it makes sense that these tools of ours are updated as well. Or at the very least, we get new ones which are completely different (which is what i think it will happen).

[SpankWustler]

I still don't understand the gimping of THF JAs in solo and low man settings. There are already more powerful soloers and low man tanks.

You have Aura Steal, which is clearly the most powerful job ability in all of FFXI.

[Nebo]

You have Aura Steal, which is clearly the most powerful job ability in all of FFXI.

*IT IGNORES RESISTANCES!!!!!!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!!

* Unless there is a bone chip involved, then you are SOL.

[FrankReynolds]

*IT IGNORES RESISTANCES!!!!!!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!!

* Unless there is a bone chip involved, then you are SOL.

Whoa! We can still steal bone chips?!?! I'm gonna be rich! rich! rich!

[RygaenYuui]

Whoa! We can still steal bone chips?!?! I'm gonna be rich! rich! rich!

I also do quite enjoy the fact that when I really just want the buff, but I end up with are bone chips. Boned. Ironically.

[Nebo]

I also do quite enjoy the fact that when I really just want the buff, but I end up with are bone chips. Boned. Ironically.

Who doesn't enjoy a good boning now and then?

[SpankWustler]

Well, if you don't want the bone chips than you could always use Despoil and get...oh...apparently nothing was added to Despoil from that monster. Bone chips for all, than!

[Camate]

We are planning to update the test server extremely soon and we will be releasing the exact schedule in the information section. Below are the planned adjustments for thief:


• Making it so an increase in the effect of Treasure Hunter is possible when using a close range physical weapon skill (*1)
• When using a weapon skill by itself, the rate of increase will be the same as a normal close range attack
• When combining a weapon skill with Sneak Attack/Trick Attack, the rate of increase will be the same as using Sneak Attack/Trick Attack.

(I am sure the next comment is going to make you say “WE KNOW! GEEZ!” but one last time…）
As stated previously, with the current system we are unable to display Treasure Hunter effect increase in the log when using weapon skills.

If we were to try and make it so it is displayed in the log, the work load would be roughly equivalent to the amount of work needed to adjust multiple jobs, so because of this we are not planning to make adjustments to this. Likewise, we do not have any plans of adding the effect increase animation for the same reason. We apologize.

*1 If it is a multi-hit weapon skill, the increase will occur on only the first hit.

[FrankReynolds]

We are planning to update the test server extremely soon and we will be releasing the exact schedule in the information section. Below are the planned adjustments for thief:


• Making it so an increase in the effect of Treasure Hunter is possible when using a close range physical weapon skill (*1)
• When using a weapon skill by itself, the rate of increase will be the same as a normal close range attack
• When combining a weapon skill with Sneak Attack/Trick Attack, the rate of increase will be the same as using Sneak Attack/Trick Attack.

(I am sure the next comment is going to make you say “WE KNOW! GEEZ!” but one last time…）
As stated previously, with the current system we are unable to display Treasure Hunter effect increase in the log when using weapon skills.

If we were to try and make it so it is displayed in the log, the work load would be roughly equivalent to the amount of work needed to adjust multiple jobs, so because of this we are not planning to make adjustments to this. Likewise, we do not have any plans of adding the effect increase animation for the same reason. We apologize.

*1 If it is a multi-hit weapon skill, the increase will occur on only the first hit.

Any chance you could just make treasure hunter work better? Its popular belief that bringing Thief has no benefit over /THF at this time. while this may not be true, it is so indistinguishable that whatever benefit there may be is so small that it has yet to be proven to exist. Adjusting the proc rate of the increase seems pointless when the actual number has virtually no effect on drops. Why waste the time?

[Arcon]

The difference is noticeable. Only TH 2 > 12 is about the same as TH1 > Th2. It's an ok boost, but it's odd that 10 tiers of TH are less extra bonus than what's available when subbing THF. If people are scarce (2boxing), then /THF is enough for most purposes. Still, for any serious farming you'll always want a main THF with you.

About the changes... I thought they were implemented this update already? I've been WSing with SA/TA happily since the last update...

[Asymptotic]

It's more likely that each level adds a decaying boost, so it takes summing them up to see the difference.

[Falseliberty]

yeah.... cuz thats what thfs want.... more TH crap good lord NO! More DD! more utility! more group buffs!
get rid of despoil and mug and try again please

[Zirael]

We are planning to update the test server extremely soon and we will be releasing the exact schedule in the information section. Below are the planned adjustments for thief:

• Making it so an increase in the effect of Treasure Hunter is possible when using a close range physical weapon skill (*1)
• When using a weapon skill by itself, the rate of increase will be the same as a normal close range attack
• When combining a weapon skill with Sneak Attack/Trick Attack, the rate of increase will be the same as using Sneak Attack/Trick Attack.(I am sure the next comment is going to make you say “WE KNOW! GEEZ!” but one last time…）
As stated previously, with the current system we are unable to display Treasure Hunter effect increase in the log when using weapon skills.

If we were to try and make it so it is displayed in the log, the work load would be roughly equivalent to the amount of work needed to adjust multiple jobs, so because of this we are not planning to make adjustments to this. Likewise, we do not have any plans of adding the effect increase animation for the same reason. We apologize.

*1 If it is a multi-hit weapon skill, the increase will occur on only the first hit.
Wow, and with that THF is finally fixed! We'll be allowed to SA/TA-WS in ~2months without everyone butt-hurt that we waste SA/TA-TreasureHunter timers in try to raise from bottom-feeder-DD spot.
Sarcasm aside, this thing should have been included in yesterday's emergency update.
Keep up the.. good work, I suppose.

[Sekundes]

So if it's so hard to make an additional message saying the TH has increased, how about make a JA that has a 1 min recast that allows you to see what the th level is? At least we wouldn't spend an absurd amount of time trying to cap th when we aren't 100% sure it isn't already...

[Asymptotic]

yeah.... cuz thats what thfs want.... more TH crap good lord NO! More DD! more utility! more group buffs!
get rid of despoil and mug and try again please

THF is a TH totem that can occasionally save a mage, get over it.

[Arcon]

At least we wouldn't spend an absurd amount of time trying to cap th when we aren't 100% sure it isn't already...

Cap TH how? I've never heard of anyone trying to cap TH on purpose, before killing something. This update isn't great, but it's not bad, it's what should have been done already.

[FrankReynolds]

So if it's so hard to make an additional message saying the TH has increased, how about make a JA that has a 1 min recast that allows you to see what the th level is? At least we wouldn't spend an absurd amount of time trying to cap th when we aren't 100% sure it isn't already...
or better yet just a command like: /echo "Treasure Hunter Level"

[Khajit]

Or you could just keep on meleeing it as thf like normal nonsucky people would. or bother to read the chatlogs.

[Nynja]

theres a cap?

[Sekundes]

Cap TH how? I've never heard of anyone trying to cap TH on purpose, before killing something. This update isn't great, but it's not bad, it's what should have been done already.
By hitting, wsing and SA and TA'ing the mob until you can't get any more TH procs? I was under the assumption that you could only get it so high before you could not get any more increases... I'm no thf though, so if I'm wrong please point it out for me... On high time investment things like say going for KB pops, I sure as hell want TH as high as I can possibly get it.

[Karbuncle]

Highest seen was ~13 or so. But it can almost certainly go higher. Just a really low chance...

[Arcon]

By hitting, wsing and SA and TA'ing the mob until you can't get any more TH procs? I was under the assumption that you could only get it so high before you could not get any more increases... I'm no thf though, so if I'm wrong please point it out for me... On high time investment things like say going for KB pops, I sure as hell want TH as high as I can possibly get it.

I don't disagree, but what is the cap? How do you know you can't get any more TH procs? Unless you're willing to solo AV for five months, and see how many upgrade procs you get, I doubt anyone can confirm an upper cap for the TH effect. It's hard to even get to 9 most of the time, even soloing NMs like Orthrus I don't often get to 9. And people have confirmed TH13 already, so how likely is it that you're ever going to get 14? In your lifetime? Practically zero. So we just don't know how high the cap is, it just depends on how much you're willing to let a THF hit a mob before it dies.

[Retsujo]

I thought I remembered someone stating it could only go to TH10. With a confirmed TH13, it makes me think that maybe it would only go to 10 levels higher than your current gear, to TH16 cap... I don't even know if that's true, but for some reason I remember "10" being a magic number.

[Falseliberty]

Btw I thought the SA TA buff that the devs hinted at was gonna be in this update
thf still needing alot of love atm

[Insaniac]

Bully becoming a moderately useful JA kind of threw us all for a loop. I think It's time we started complaining about steal/aurasteal/mug/despoil again.

[noodles355]

Bully is amazing though. And the intimidate rate for me has been pretty decent even with only 2 man parties, usually tend to get 1-3 intimidates per 30 seconds on average.

[Vold]

13 is news to me. I'm half tempted to go fight Aspid or something that heals itself for a hour and see how high that TH will go 'cause I'm doubting anyone has cared enough to try.

[FrankReynolds]

13 is news to me. I'm half tempted to go fight Aspid or something that heals itself for a hour and see how high that TH will go 'cause I'm doubting anyone has cared enough to try.

We did Nidhogg the other night with no one attacking it for most of the battle besides the thief using TA on the Ninja, and SA when bully was up. We couldn't get it past 10. Who knows though, maybe with like 10 thiefs using nothing but SA / TA? :P

[Kitkat]

Max I've heard of is th15, max I've seen proc is TH13 myself but it was a long fight and 2 thf.

[Einalem]

If you guys think the Enmity distribution JAs are junky, I've got a SCH that'd love to have something useful to do post Libra than talk at my party about Enmity. Just get the Devs to send those JAs SCH's way, k? ^_~

[Vosslerr]

(at least enough to put DNC back in 2nd place when it comes to daggers)


I was just interested in why you believe DNC trumps THF with Dagger? Unless you are talking about having to offhand a Theif's Knife, which I completely understand the frustration. Otherwise, most Daggers I have seen are always THF/DNC or THF Ex. THF also has a bit higher Dagger skill cap. THF's also have more DEX to modify with both Evis and Rundras. Take out the fact that DNC can Darkness skillchain with Rundra's, and I dont see any obvious thing that makes DNC trump THF with Dagger skill. But maybe I'm just missing something.

[FrankReynolds]

I was just interested in why you believe DNC trumps THF with Dagger? Unless you are talking about having to offhand a Theif's Knife, which I completely understand the frustration. Otherwise, most Daggers I have seen are always THF/DNC or THF Ex. THF also has a bit higher Dagger skill cap. THF's also have more DEX to modify with both Evis and Rundras. Take out the fact that DNC can Darkness skillchain with Rundra's, and I dont see any obvious thing that makes DNC trump THF with Dagger skill. But maybe I'm just missing something.


Accuracy bonus, native subtle blow, higher dual wield and big double attack rate from saber dance come to mind.

[Vosslerr]

Hmm, good point, but wouldn't it be offset by what I mentioned and SATA + THF's other traits? DNC accuracy bonus is to help in building TP, which in some situations a DNC may need to cure etc. THF is just straight DD unless /dnc of course, and I'm usually very outdamaged by THF's performing just regular Evis, by at least usually 200+ damage. Not to mention using SATA, lol. I think its definately on the THF side on Dagger control.

However I do think THF's need more potential, and have been neglected in updates.

[FrankReynolds]

Hmm, good point, but wouldn't it be offset by what I mentioned and SATA + THF's other traits? DNC accuracy bonus is to help in building TP, which in some situations a DNC may need to cure etc. THF is just straight DD unless /dnc of course, and I'm usually very outdamaged by THF's performing just regular Evis, by at least usually 200+ damage. Not to mention using SATA, lol. I think its definately on the THF side on Dagger control.

However I do think THF's need more potential, and have been neglected in updates.

I have never run numbers to compare the two jobs, but I imagine that they are very close in terms of damage. SA/TA are cool, but I doubt they beat %10 full time haste. I dunno, maybe I'll get out ye'ole spread sheet and compare today while I'm at work. I think it really boils down to : If you don't need treasure hunter (either because you already have a thief, or you are more concerned with yellow, or you just need ki etc.) then dancer adds a lot more support.

[Vosslerr]

Yeah thats for sure :/ I also forgot to mention THF's Triple Attack, I think THF's could use some gear to maybe enhance this trait to offset the gear that allows any job to use it. At least a bit more than they already have with the Raider and Assassin gear.

[Arcon]

Yeah thats for sure :/ I also forgot to mention THF's Triple Attack, I think THF's could use some gear to maybe enhance this trait to offset the gear that allows any job to use it. At least a bit more than they already have with the Raider and Assassin gear.

THF just got Triple Attack II. It's 1% more than Triple Attack I. Yay.

[FrankReynolds]

THF just got Triple Attack II. It's 1% more than Triple Attack I. Yay.

/sigh I was hoping for a higher dual wield trait. has anybody tested that?

[Motenten]

/sigh I was hoping for a higher dual wield trait. has anybody tested that?

Thf gets DW 3 at level 98.

[FrankReynolds]

Thf gets DW 3 at level 98.

This just made me feel all warm and fuzzy. Wish it was dual wield IV, but still all fuzzy.

[Arcon]

This just made me feel all warm and fuzzy. Wish it was dual wield IV, but still all fuzzy.

It's actually my sole motivation for the 99 cap quest. So I can /WAR and feel good about myself.

[Laphine]

So, we've been seeing a lot of adjustments to JAs recast. Bashes, circles, and the the biggest one, Jumps. I wonder i wonder, will we see sa/ta recast shorted to fit the new world FFXI? I used to think we would get a new force crit JA back when they announced the update concept, but considering we are also at the 12 JA recast cap, that dream is gone. Adding a new JA with shared recast with either SA or TA would be (probably) silly. I'm really keeping my hopes up for lowered recast now...for some reason. Maybe i am masochist lol.

[Babekeke]

Unfortunately, I really can't see this happening. They wouldn't lower the recasts on steal/aura steal or mug because of game balance, lol! Dropping flee down to maybe 3 mins would be nice too, but again people would likely be able to abuse it, so it can't be implemented due to balance ><

[FrankReynolds]

They have been telling the dragoons that they are working on increasing the 12 timer limit, and that some of the shared timers are only temporary. Perhaps they could consider moving some less used JA's to shared timers on thief temporarily so that they could add new ones. I don't think anyone would mind if flee and hide shared a timer for example. There's probably a few other things they could get creative with as well.

[Babekeke]

It's 13 already, apparently... not 12.

[Lokithor]

I would not want flee and hide on the same timer. Put Mug and Steal on the same (5 min or less) timer. Who the hell cares about Mug anymore anyway when nothing can be mugged for anything worthwhile?

[Arcon]

It's 13 already, apparently... not 12.

Maybe with and without counting two-hour abilities?

[Babekeke]

Maybe with and without counting two-hour abilities?

Possibly. I didn't count up how many jobs like drg and thf have to see. It's just what Camate posted today.

[FrankReynolds]

I would not want flee and hide on the same timer. Put Mug and Steal on the same (5 min or less) timer. Who the hell cares about Mug anymore anyway when nothing can be mugged for anything worthwhile?

Yeah, I just thought of hide, because I can't think of a time in years where I have used both at the same time. Also keep in mind that I was talking about a temporary change, just so that they could add more abilities sooner than later. I agree about mug too. I wouldn't mind loosing a little functionality on mug (they apparently don't like us using it anyways), if it meant getting a new JA that was actually good. I would gladly just delete mug for something as useful as bully. Maybe legion NMs will be mug worthy?

[Babekeke]

Yeah, I just thought of hide, because I can't think of a time in years where I have used both at the same time.

Flee >> Deodorizer >> Silent Oil >> Hide. Ok I haven't done it since I was coffer hunting for my AF, back when exp mattered.

[Duelle]

To open, I want to apologize for posting in this format. My little conversation with Karbuncle got me looking over the THF forums and I'm doing some back-tracking as a result.

1) THF has no real use. TH2 is the best form of TH in terms of noticeable boosts, anything past that is all pretty much unnoticeable/unseeable boosts. So we're not even good for that beyond placebo effects.TH should really be nothing more than a slight bonus. At least that way you have a reason to look over the job and start boosting some of the other facets of THF. The problem with this is that such an approach clashes with point 4. I just don't know how career THFs would react to FFXI THF emulating Locke and Zidane more than the FFTactics THF (AKA the "all I'm good for is stealing rare equipment off bosses" job).

2) We have no real DD capabilities, similar to a lot of lesser DD jobs, Except THF falls further behind than others in this Gap. Since 75 the gap between THFs power and the next best DD has widened much further. In this field, we don't ask to be top tier DD, simply to have the gap lessened.A second tier of Assassin to add a small damage multiplier to SA & TA (buff the multiplier if it's not enough) and one additional attack JA on it's own one minute cooldown may be a good place to start. As per the raise dagger damage thread, dagger damage should be bumped up a bit, or add a JT to THF to give the slight boost to dagger damage in order to not mess with itemization (call it Dagger Mastery or something like that). By the way, Aura Steal is a terrible idea, and whoever thought it belonged on THF has been playing too much FFTactics.

3) Devs want us to be support class and "Control enmity" and as it stands THF has no real methods to "Control" enmity. 2 Abilities on a shared timer and no way to disperse extra Enmity does not a master make. So as far as the Devs "vision" of the job goes we even lack capabilities thereMaking a guy with big crits and daggers "support" is a losing proposition. That being said, enmity is a cluster-f of epic proportions. No easy way to fix it without massive changes that affect everyone. Then again, enmity control is a really bad gimmick to stick on a melee combatant like THF.

4) Over-all Lack of Uniqueness of the job, usefulness of the job. Right now the only thing keeping THF relevant is ignorance of Treasure Hunter, But once that becomes common knowledge I doubt THF will keep its head above water.

5) We're all disappointed by the BS Responses we got earlier, which basically to summarize tell us things like "Aura Steal is too powerful to separate from Steal, or Reduce timer", and "You can't have Subtle Blow because You melee for TH upgrades, and we feel that balances it", etc.Indeed. I'm surprised at the amount of BS that was flung your way. Most disappointing.

6) Practically 0 job growth since the level cap increases. THF is more or less the same exact job it was at level 75 where most other jobs have grown either slightly or exponentially. TH3 and the proc system seems to have been just a placebo put in place to keep THFs from being completely forgotten when TH2 became sub-able.Agreed. THF growing as a melee job instead of relying to bad gimmicks is not going to suddenly take over the game. The only real concern I ever had about the job was the fact that THF/NIN and THF/DNC is pretty effective...soloing. Other than that, the job needs lots of help.

If the above has been disproven or debunked or argued against, consider this a friendly bump from an outsider to the job. =P

[Babekeke]

TH should really be nothing more than a slight bonus. At least that way you have a reason to look over the job and start boosting some of the other facets of THF.

Past TH2/3, it is. And they still won't.


A second tier of Assassin to add a small damage multiplier to SA & TA (buff the multiplier if it's not enough)

Critical Attack Bonus IV gives an extra 14% damage to not just SA and TA, but every crit that lands.


and one additional attack JA on it's own one minute cooldown may be a good place to start.

Yes, though it's already been said, and all we got was 'too many JA timers' from the devs.


Making a guy with big crits and daggers "support" is a losing proposition.

It's called 'Dancer'.


That being said, enmity is a cluster-f of epic proportions. No easy way to fix it without massive changes that affect everyone. Then again, enmity control is a really bad gimmick to stick on a melee combatant like THF.
Indeed. I'm surprised at the amount of BS that was flung your way. Most disappointing.

It was actually a really good idea when it was released, it was useful, and made the job far more interesting than the likes of MNK of old which was just swing swing swing WS etc. Since TP zerg however, it has become far more redundant, and with no rise to the enmity cap, it is capped within a few mins even on the highest def mobs. It is still moderately useful on the few mobs where taking a PLD is worthwhile, however on those mobs (generally VW) 1 TA WS to help the PLD in the first minute of the fight isn't enough to warrant taking a THF and losing out on other procs.


THF growing as a melee job instead of relying to bad gimmicks is not going to suddenly take over the game. The only real concern I ever had about the job was the fact that THF/NIN and THF/DNC is pretty effective...soloing.

And yet our best DD abilities are almost useless in a solo situation. No TA partner to TA on, and SA only every 3 mins with Bully.

Increasing the Eva cap would actually help THF quite a lot. Being able to cap out eva on a lot of mobs, but still getting hit every 5 attack rounds is ridiculous. Or as I believe has been mentioned before, a JA like perfect counter, but perfect evade. 1 min JA lasts for 30 seconds or until hit: "Evades the next attack that would have hit you". This would at least boost capped eva up to getting hit once every 11 attack rounds, making /war tanking much much better and mp efficient.

[Duelle]

Past TH2/3, it is.I meant as a whole. As in, it's miniscule and there mostly for thematics instead of having notable effects in combat.

Critical Attack Bonus IV gives an extra 14% damage to not just SA and TA, but every crit that lands.Still does not mean an additional damage modifier wouldn't hurt.

Yes, though it's already been said, and all we got was 'too many JA timers' from the devs.BS response is BS.

It's called 'Dancer'.Which is so much more relevant and far out-classes THF and is always brought to events...oh wait. Really, a job that relies on high critical hits, has abilities that fascilitate them and built-in triple attack should not be pushed into being "support". That's as demeaning as RDM's time as refreshbot. Not to mention by doing that all you're doing is keeping a potentially great damage dealer down.

It was actually a really good idea when it was released, it was useful, and made the job far more interesting than the likes of MNK of old which was just swing swing swing WS etc. Since TP zerg however, it has become far more redundant, and with no rise to the enmity cap, it is capped within a few mins even on the highest def mobs. It is still moderately useful on the few mobs where taking a PLD is worthwhile, however on those mobs (generally VW) 1 TA WS to help the PLD in the first minute of the fight isn't enough to warrant taking a THF and losing out on other procs.The game has changed, but some jobs never changed along with it. That needs to be corrected.

If you want to get into nitty gritty, it's a bad gimmick in the long term. It expects things to stay a certain way, which all went down the toilet once people started easily hitting the enmity cap. 1-50 and 51-75 were already different enough, and then 76-99 came in and everything that was set in place suddenly became very outdated. The developers need to go back and either update certain systems or rework jobs in a way that they actually are functional, useful and relevant in events for those who enjoy said jobs. Raising the enmity cap is only going to prolong the problem instead of solve it, by the way.

And yet our best DD abilities are almost useless in a solo situation. No TA partner to TA on, and SA only every 3 mins with Bully.The concern was more for survivability. I used to see people two-box Abyssea content with a THF/NIN or THF/DNC tanking everything and a WHM attached to them. Then I realized THF has high evasion and can gear for it. Again, it's not a big deal, though if the devs came to me and said "we're being careful because THF with the proper support can tank things" I may consider that a legitimate concern and not a nugget on the pile of BS they've been giving you for responses.

If you want to get inside my head and see what I feel THF needs, or at least what direction it could potentiall grow if someone in the developer team cared about the job, I do have some very rough ideas:

Job Abilities



Job Traits

You may not like them, but I do admit that I take issue with treasure hunter, Steal, Despoil, and Aura Steal being used as excuses for denying the job growth as a melee damage dealer. Specially when the foundation is there.

[Byrth]

I leveled Thief to 99 and have hardly used Dancer since. I took it to kill Proto-Omega because TH doesn't matter much there.

I picked up 5-10 Alexandrite per run when I swapped to Thief with macroing in AF2+2 hands and AF3+2 feet for one round on each gear. It's worth the extra ~5-10 minutes it takes me because Thief is a substantially worse DD than my DNC. Most of what takes time is the running around in there, anyway.

[Babekeke]

I leveled Thief to 99 and have hardly used Dancer since. I took it to kill Proto-Omega because TH doesn't matter much there.

I picked up 5-10 Alexandrite per run when I swapped to Thief with macroing in AF2+2 hands and AF3+2 feet for one round on each gear. It's worth the extra ~5-10 minutes it takes me because Thief is a substantially worse DD than my DNC. Most of what takes time is the running around in there, anyway.

I guess you didn't mean Proto-Omega? Or you switched to a different event without mentioning it lol.

[Byrth]

Yeah, one of them is Limbus (I did not use THF) and the next is Salvage (I used THF).

[Ophannus]

I'd love to see THF get a trait called Tactical Evade where they get +1-2 TP for every successful evasion. Or if that's too strong, could make it a JA called Artful Dodge with shared timer with Mug or something(If mug is used, 15m recast, if the JA is used, its 5 min recast). As an added bonus Perfect Dodge could enhance the effect of the trait further and give like TP+5-10 for every evasion(similar to how Light Arts or Tabula Rasa enhance Regen), making it less sucky and goes along with what SE said like 3 years ago about making Perfect Dodge more useful and possibly more offensive.

[Huevriel]

I still love THF either way. Picking chests never gets old. I would like to see SE give boosts to THF that use Shield + Dagger rather than Dual Wield. Or perhaps make a shield that "Enhances Sneak Attack" or something.

[Ophannus]

^Reminds me of pre TOAU days when I'd see THF/WAR running around with Mandau/Tatami Shield, messing stuff up for ridiculous damage. You could sub WAR now and benefit from like TP Bonus+20 and a pretty significant bonus to Critical Hit rate from Fencer actually (Crit+5%). They could even make sneak attack do increased damage if you only wield one weapon in your hand rather than dual wielding, though dual wielding fits THF better to be honest.

I was thinking if they implemented better bolts for high level (HQ Blood/Acid/Sleep) that had 1.5-2x the effect that current bolts have, THF would be pretty sweet on stuff, maybe even a increase to B+ or A- marksmanship so we could use xbow better. I gotta say, I've been in love with xbow since I leveled THF and find that 12.5% defense down from acid bolts(which procs on almost everything even VW) beats the 3% DW from Raiders. If they increased Acid Bolt's effectiveness or added stronger Acid Bolts that did like 15-17% Defense Down, it would definitely be awesome. By the way I've ben screwing around with Paralyze Arrows on my THF when soloing Dynamis, have you guys any idea how potent these things are? They're like Ice Spikes potency or Paralyze II 5/5 from RDM! Seriously the paralyze proc's on mobs' actions like 30-40% of the time, it's nuts. People underrate how good status bolts/arrows can be.

[Aana]

I dont see any value in trying to boost up single wielding. It would need such a huge boost to keep up with DW (30%+ delay reduction is HUGE for both TP speed and DoT, not to mention the extra hit on WS) its just impractical to boost single up that much just to MATCH what we have now. Whats the point? Especially after years of bitching/whining for DW and we FINALLY got it. Now people want to go single wield again?

Some people can never be happy i guess. Why boost single wield so you can mandau/tatami /war when you can just get 33% DW and STILL /war and destroy the world right now instead? It doesnt enhance thf, it just makes DDing with 1 hand as good as 2 already is. That doesnt fix anything wrong with thf because its a sidegrade at the expense of lots of dev time.

Theres a lot of things SE can do to thf. Wasting time enhancing thf dagger/shield combo by ~30% just to match the existing DW we begged for the last 5 years for because single wielding sucked and bound us to /nin isnt one of them.

[Babekeke]

It would need such a huge boost to keep up with DW (30%+ delay reduction is HUGE for both TP speed and DoT, not to mention the extra hit on WS)

Since they scrapped the tp floor, 30% delay reduction doesn't speed up TP gain, as TP per swing is reduced by the same amount as your delay is reduced.

[Motenten]

Since they scrapped the tp floor, 30% delay reduction doesn't speed up TP gain, as TP per swing is reduced by the same amount as your delay is reduced.

Incorrect. It doesn't increase TP gain *as much* as it used to, but it does absolutely still increase TP gain.



Delay per weapon TP/Hit TP/Second
180 5.0 1.667
175 4.9 1.680
170 4.9 1.729
165 4.8 1.745
160 4.8 1.800
155 4.7 1.819
150 4.7 1.880
145 4.7 1.945
140 4.6 1.971
135 4.6 2.044
130 4.5 2.077
125 4.5 2.160
120 4.5 2.250


For the issue in question, a 190 delay dagger's TP gain rate would be 1.642 TP per second. 30% DW puts the effective delay at 133, which has a TP gain rate of 2.075 TP per second, a 26.4% increase.

A Twashtar, at 176 delay, would have 1.670 TP/second. 30% DW reduction (assuming an identical 176 delay weapon in offhand) puts its effective delay at 123, for 2.195 TP/second; a 31.5% increase in TP gain rate.

[Economizer]

Incorrect. It doesn't increase TP gain *as much* as it used to, but it does absolutely still increase TP gain.

Motenten is right as usual. But I don't think this even accounts for triple attack rounds - the faster you hit the more chances you have for double/triple/quadruple attack to proc.

[Motenten]

But I don't think this even accounts for triple attack rounds - the faster you hit the more chances you have for double/triple/quadruple attack to proc.

Unfortunately, that's not a valid way of looking at it. If you make 10 attack rounds, and get 2 triples in that time, it doesn't matter if each round is 1 second apart or 10 seconds apart, you still do identical damage. You don't get "more" chances to triple attack as you reduce delay, you just compress the damage you did into a smaller period of time.

Yes, you can technically view it as more chances to triple attack within a given period of time, but that's only because of the greater number of attack rounds to begin with.

I'm probably not explaining it well. Triple attack/etc chances do not scale with time, they scale with number of attack rounds. Attack rounds scale with time. Saying that your improvement is because of more triple attacks is viewing the damage schema at entirely the wrong level.

[Economizer]

Yeah, I'm not trying to say the extra damage is due to double/triple/quadruple/occ. attk. X or anything like that, merely that haste amplifies the effects of them more (in this game, what haste doesn't amplify is probably a shorter list then what it does).


Saying that your improvement is because of more triple attacks is viewing the damage schema at entirely the wrong level.

Lets say you have a fight that goes on for a somewhat limited time. You either get those extra rounds due to haste/delay reduction or you don't. If you have some form of multihit trait or weapon then the damage difference is further amplified from someone who doesn't have haste.

Of course, I'm not the legendary Professor Mathematical so I'm either misinformed in my own thinking process or performing some miscommunication in my thinking process. At this point in time I'm erring on the second one however.

[Babekeke]

Incorrect. It doesn't increase TP gain *as much* as it used to, but it does absolutely still increase TP gain.



Delay per weapon TP/Hit TP/Second
180 5.0 1.667
175 4.9 1.680
170 4.9 1.729
165 4.8 1.745
160 4.8 1.800
155 4.7 1.819
150 4.7 1.880
145 4.7 1.945
140 4.6 1.971
135 4.6 2.044
130 4.5 2.077
125 4.5 2.160
120 4.5 2.250


Is this only true for delay under 180? I recall seeing a graph showing delay to TP a couple of years ago and it showed that weapons under 180 produce more TP, but don't recall if it was linear above that? Also, is there a floor at 120, or can TP gained go below 4.5?

[Arcon]

Of course, I'm not the legendary Professor Mathematical so I'm either misinformed in my own thinking process or performing some miscommunication in my thinking process. At this point in time I'm erring on the second one however.

You're correct with that statement, and while you get a higher total bonus with more Haste (or less Delay in general) you get the same percentual bonus.


Is this only true for delay under 180? I recall seeing a graph showing delay to TP a couple of years ago and it showed that weapons under 180 produce more TP, but don't recall if it was linear above that? Also, is there a floor at 120, or can TP gained go below 4.5?

TP always behaves linearly, but with different segments as it's defined partially in certain intervals. Overlapping intervals may produce weird behaviour when trying to calculate the percentual bonus (one such inflection point is at 180 Delay, so if you compare the interval [150;200] you'll get non-linear results). But for delay under 180, this is definitely true.

[Byrth]

Of course, I'm not the legendary Professor Mathematical so I'm either misinformed in my own thinking process or performing some miscommunication in my thinking process. At this point in time I'm erring on the second one however.

Well, if you gain 15% Triple Attack (from 0% TA/DA/QA/OAT/OAwhatever), it will increase your TP gain by 30%. It is true that you will see more Triple Attacks if you have more Haste, but they will still represent the same percentage increase in your TP gain. Thus, the impact of Triple Attack is independent of weapon delay.

This "decreasing delay increases TP gain" is one of the reasons why my Dancer (95 delay per hand) gains TP so much faster than my Thief (~122 delay per hand). All the extra Store TP and Haste Samba also help quite a bit.

[Aana]

I always think of it like dice. Everytime you attack, you roll a 10 sided die. If you roll a 1 you triple. 2-10 and you single. Pick up dice, roll it, see what happens. 10% of the time you triple attack.

Adding haste just makes you attack more, so you grab more dice. Now you pick up 5 dice. or 10, or 999. No matter what, you will still only triple 10% of the time. Addin more dice doesnt 'enhance' triple attack at all. You can roll 1 dice 100 times (it will take a while) or pick up 100 dice and roll them all at once (SUPER HASTE GOO!). Either way, the only way to make triple attack better is to say "Triple attacks now proc on rolling both a 1 and a 2" (20% chance to triple).

In this way, triple attack is completely independant of how many dice you roll. Its always a 1/10 chance to go off. Adding more dice doesnt change that. It just makes the process of rolling dice take less time (like haste makes attacking take less time). It doesnt actually affect your triple attacks. Roll 1 dice slowly 100 times, or m100 dice at once, it wont change how many times you roll a 1.


This "decreasing delay increases TP gain" is one of the reasons why my Dancer (95 delay per hand) gains TP so much faster than my Thief (~122 delay per hand). All the extra Store TP and Haste Samba also help quite a bit.
Little tangent that I have always wondered about. When you play dnc, does your style use steps/flourashes pretty much as soon as their up (assuming a pretty constant melee scenario), or do you just kinda ride haste samba+saber dance into the sunset. While its true dnc has a good chunk of atk speed over thf, i wonder how much of that is eaten up by spaming SOOO many JAs (compared to thf). I remember back in the old days of colibri parties when people started mathing in WS delay that soboro stopped beating hagun and became a wash because so much time was lost in the animations spamming so many weaker WS compared to hagun.

I just wonder if the constant barrage of dnc steps/flourishes messes with all that absurd speed with stop and go pauses. While, comparitively, thf has virtually no JAs.

2JAs a minute at best with SATA. Bully every 3. WS when TP. In a 3 minute cycle thf does (at most)
* ~7-8 JAs (3SA, 3TA, 1bully, 0-1 ACharge) and however many WS we can. Feint once in a blue moon if needed.

Compared to 12steps, 6reverses, ~1.5 of a flourish 3. ~1.5 haste samba. 1 saber dance. X for presto(iunno much about dnc post 75 if you use this or not, but seems to net gain of zero since presto+step=2 steps=same JA delay). THEN you add in the WS you get from all that DW/Samba speed and reverse flourishes. Good god thats a crapload of JAs.
~22+WSs in a THREE Minute period.

thats ~14 more 1 second JA delays in a 3 minute period (and however many mroe WS dnc is capable of doing on top of that). just an even 15 second/3 min is 8.3% of your melee time vanished.

Anyway, just wondering how JA intensive dnc really is. Not familiar enough with it to say what teh ost 'efficient' play style is, but it makes me wonder. The soboro vs hagun was the 1st example that adding JAs turned a clear winner (soboro) into a wash at high haste values. At a certain break point of haste and JA spam, less becomes more. Thf is definately on the 'simple' side. Curious if all the crazy JA spam on dnc ends up hurting it. Obviously capped haste things change and dnc needs to start toning down DW gear when it becomes a liability and thf ends up at the same 80% delay cap, so then its just TA vs saber dance and im sure at 80% zerg mode the JAs are really painful, but dnc and thf arent exactly high end zerg jobs, so we can stick to basic buffs :P

[Byrth]

The real answer is that it's very situational, but most of the time when I am playing Dancer (at high Haste lowman or when duoing with a mage mule against trash monsters), it is not worth using Steps/Flourishes at all, in my opinion. Obviously there are times when you want to use Steps/Flourishes even though it hurts your overall damage (like in Dynamis), but it is not very often. That is why I keep advocating for reduced JA delay. The job (played properly) is basically just Thief with more Dual Wield, Haste Samba, and Saber Dance (= Triple Attack, but you have to activate it) in most of the situations where it is useful.


When you do the comparison, you need to account for the fact that things like Presto+Step+Flourish+WS all end up chained and don't actually take an additional 2 seconds each. However, self-skillchaining will overkill everything Dancer fights or be impossible (Voidwatch). Box -> Wild -> Exenterator may be our best use of time, but even that isn't always useful.


If I was in an alliance or even full-party situation where Dancer could survive, I would obviously spam Steps for the sake of the group regardless of my own damage. Weasling your way into a Voidwatch alliance is the only way to get yourself into this situation though, and I'm usually so bitter to be in the mage party (inevitable) at that point that I don't really care anymore. Hell, most of the time mages don't even bother keeping Dia II on monsters, and that's just barely weaker than a level 5 Sluggish Daze and takes almost no time to cast.

I think I went into it more here (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=254&mid=129659689122256658&p=1#8).

[Motenten]

Is this only true for delay under 180? I recall seeing a graph showing delay to TP a couple of years ago and it showed that weapons under 180 produce more TP, but don't recall if it was linear above that? Also, is there a floor at 120, or can TP gained go below 4.5?

As Arcon mentioned, the scale changes at various delays, but the most interesting portion is 180 and below. There's a graph on wiki for it, I think.

There is no known lower bound. I just ran it down to 120 delay since that seemed like a good place to stop.

The lowest practical delay that I can come up with would be:

Nin (DW5): 35%
Suppa: 5%
Iga+2 head: 5%
AF body: 5%
Relic+2 legs: 7%
Nusku Sash: 5%
Iga Earring: 1%

Total: 63% DW

Edit: Actually, could add Blitzer's Roll to that for another ~15%, 78% total (just shy of the delay cap).

Weapons: 150 delay daggers (eg: Hornetneedle, Oneiros Knife, etc)

Effective delay: 55
TP/Hit: 3.9
TP/second: 4.216

Effective delay: 33
TP/Hit: 3.7
TP/second: 6.727

[Byrth]

Does Blitzer stack additively with Dual Wield? I was under the impression that they were separate categories.

[Ophannus]

Would be sweet if our merit 2hr ability gave us Triple Attack+100% for 30 seconds-1min.

[Fupafighter]

Would be sweet if our merit 2hr ability gave us Triple Attack+100% for 30 seconds-1min.

I wouldn't mind stackin my rudra with that lol.

[Karbuncle]

There was a thread a while back about making up 2hours, thats actually exactly what i suggested.

[Motenten]

Does Blitzer stack additively with Dual Wield? I was under the impression that they were separate categories.

Not sure, actually, just a possible additional delay reduction I tossed in. I don't see any testing saying it explicitly does or does not add to DW.

[Aana]

Lulz if we had 100% triple for 2hour, might actually have a use for all that situational TA damage gear that generally sucks.

[Babekeke]

Not, sure, actually, just a possible additional delay reduction I tossed in. I don't see any testing saying it explicitly does or does not add to DW.

Since Blitzers is just delay reduction, it should stack additively, yes.

One thing I'm not sure of though, is if for some reason that NIN with -78% delay then got haste/marces/samba or whatever to put them over the delay cap, do they still only get the reduced amount of TP, or does haste get removed first, then enough delay reduction to hit cap and stop it there? I assume all the delay comes off, but not sure.

[Byrth]

Since Blitzers is just delay reduction, it should stack additively, yes.

That's not actually clear.


One thing I'm not sure of though, is if for some reason that NIN with -78% delay then got haste/marces/samba or whatever to put them over the delay cap, do they still only get the reduced amount of TP, or does haste get removed first, then enough delay reduction to hit cap and stop it there? I assume all the delay comes off, but not sure.

You work with whatever your post-DW TP/hit is when you calculate your TP. Haste/etc don't affect TP, and the overall delay cap is a whole other comparison entirely.

[Babekeke]

That's not actually clear.

Would seem kind of stupid to have it in it's own category. To keep the numbers simple, if you have 50% haste and 50% DW, you're sitting at 75% delay reduction. If blitzers is a 3rd multiplicative to factor in, you need 20% to hit cap. If it's additive to DW you only need 10% to hit cap, just making it even more useless if it's multiplicative (but then, this is SE).


You work with whatever your post-DW TP/hit is when you calculate your TP. Haste/etc don't affect TP, and the overall delay cap is a whole other comparison entirely.

OK maybe I worded it badly, but I am aware haste doesn't reduce TP, just wasn't sure if they stopped reducing your TP from DW when delay got capped.

[Byrth]

Heyooooooo necroooo

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/113244-TH-and-Linen-s?p=5667264&viewfull=1#post5667264

It looks like TH3+ are an improvement over TH2.

[Karbuncle]

At first i read it as TH2 Giving ~9% and TH3 giving ~13%.

but it looks like its sorted as 3+, Meaning Anything above 3 is added into this average? Meaning its probably TH6/7/8 Or so that we're seeing most of these averages from yah?

Seems great TH3+ Has a difference, Seems kinda sad that the difference between TH2 and TH7/8 is only 4% or so lol. Still, I like this database and I hope it helps us build significant Data on Treasure Hunter levels.

[Byrth]

There's already significant data. It's just a matter of analyzing it. The entire site is up.

Check out Hpemdes, for example. You can see that TH2 to TH3+ is a pretty substantial boost in organ drop rate.

[Demon6324236]

I notice that TH1 seems to have 0% on almost everything, which is somewhat annoyingly wrong for sure because of the number of BSTs with Falcor and I know for a fact my RDM uses a TH sash in Dynamis, so 0TH is not quite accurate.

[Arcon]

I notice that TH1 seems to have 0% on almost everything, which is somewhat annoyingly wrong for sure because of the number of BSTs with Falcor and I know for a fact my RDM uses a TH sash in Dynamis, so 0TH is not quite accurate.

That's a limitation that we hope to overcome soon. However, for now we're not detecting any of that, unfortunately.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm more interested in the differences between THs 7 and up.

[Arcon]

I'm more interested in the differences between THs 7 and up.

All I can say at this point is that this is planned as well. If only there were 168 hours in a day.

[FrankReynolds]

All I can say at this point is that this is planned as well. If only there were 168 hours in a day.

To be specific, I'm hoping that the difference between TH7 and any higher level of TH is so minuscule as to completely crush the chances that any more idiots will attempt to make me full time TH gear for entire fights.