Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[Insaniac]

There's no way 0.0. Vacuum math maybe it's possible but in situations where TP gets held because SA and TA aren't always available and TP dump situations there's simply just no way.

[Alaik]

I call BS. The spreadsheet and/or your usage is wrong. I'll have to grab it and look at it but there is no THF who is going to match a buffed Ukon WAR/SAM on content that's rated VT-IT for our level. Against trash sure but that's nothing new, we could solo a mob in 6 seconds versus a warrior's 8.

Not meaning that as an insult, but you REALLY might want to double check it. A WAR has NEVER had an issue with floored crit rate. THF however does, and in DD aspects in general just because of how much SE stacks the game mechanics against us. A+ skill vs A-, 160 STR being 120 attack for 2H, but only 80 for 1H, vastly superior WS mods, fSTR capping MUCH lower for 1H weapons, severe lack of attack boosting traits/abilities/gear. The list goes on. Some of those are very noticable, must are marginal, however add all of them together and we have the clusterfuck we do today.

THF is also one of the worst jobs to "pure math" about as all of our abilities can be messed up by anyone, really. We're not like a WAR who knows that a berserk WS is a berserked WS. We have a SAWS, but if that WAR DOES berserk WS right before us, we could get screwed.

[Laphine]

well, i trust Kinematics as one of the most knowledgeable math wizzes out there. But he is human anyway. And this is math too, not the real world.

I really doubt anyone can reach crit cap outside abyssea as easily as us right now. I, for one, melee in 152 dex iirc. War will never reach this amount without some serious trade-off . For WS also, meleeing with capped dex crit is simply impossible for them.

edit: and when i say i beat this simulated war, i don't say i completely crushed him lol. It was just around 7.5% more, 140 dps vs 130.

[Insaniac]

I don't disagree with the idea that THF would have a higher crit rate. SE gave us a lot more DEX to TP in compared to level 75 (love torque and rajas depending on the situation). When haidate used to be the norm we got out critted by anyone who could equip it. That's no longer the case.

[DebbieGibson]

Something like this:


SE: Fish should not dream on flying


SE: there you have it DRKs, your dreams are coming true!


SE: we care about THF, wait and believe, that’s a promise!

While I see the plight of the thf job as illuminated to me by the posters here, I don't think this fits as one of the reasons. Perhaps SE wants drk to be stronger than thf, and therefore they do not feel it is overpowered for drk but it would be on thf. Though sadly watch SE fuck it up and make the cast time too long to be worth using.

[Laphine]

This magic will be as useful as aura steal anyway. So even if the cast is long, you will cast if the bonus is good. And there are a few of those. (Chances are) DRK has two things in advantage tho: higher chance to steal goodies by getting 2 effects and shortened recast. Oh of course, if they use absorb-atb they won't have the other absorb locked, nor will they steal some junk and not get the effect. THF only has the instant cast as advantage. So yay we can steal ufo boosts and DRK can't...meh.

Anyway, it's pretty reasonable that they get this. What i don't think is reasonble is that we get a pile of junk JAs.

[Insaniac]

While I see the plight of the thf job as illuminated to me by the posters here, I don't think this fits as one of the reasons. Perhaps SE wants drk to be stronger than thf, and therefore they do not feel it is overpowered for drk but it would be on thf. Though sadly watch SE fuck it up and make the cast time too long to be worth using.The thing about this is that there really aren't that many damage boosting buffs to steal. The mega hastes are nice and attack bonus is cool but that's about it. It's more utility than it is a damage boost and if SE want's THF to be more utility than damage then they have no ground to stand on with aura steal. There's just no real justification for not putting it on at least a 3 minute timer.

[SpankWustler]

I'm sure this has come and gone before, but I'm really curious. Plus, this discussion actually seems intelligent which isn't terribly comment on the internet.

Let's say SE decided to competently move Thief in a direction that wasn't straight-up damage. The key word being "competently". The job abilities given wouldn't be oriented around damage, but they also wouldn't be absolute junk in the vein of Despoil. The timers would not be two to five times longer than they should be.

What kind of abilities and recasts would be needed for that to work? Furthermore, would that even be a job you guys would want to play?

[Nebo]

The 5/15 minute recast timer has been killing the job for a long time. SE loves to give ridiculously....needlessly long recast timers to THF job abilities. After they do that, they implement these abilities in ways that are overly restricted or do not function in a way that makes any logical sense (to anyone but them I guess).

I hate being as pessimistic as I am about THF's future but if you look at all the things the developement team has been saying....it is very clear that they are very very very out of touch when it comes to THF.

Thet say their vision for THF is that of a "stealthy pickpocket" while in the same breath saying that they don't want to add anything worth stealing and that our ONLY somewhat useful steal ability (Aurasteal) would be overpowered if they reversed the senseless way that they mashed it together with Steal.

It really is beyond me that they think Aurasteal is so powerful. The majority of things we fight don;t have enhancements worth stealing. Most of the effects you would want to steal or dispel....you just can't. Aurasteal can miss. The enhancement effect you steal cannot be specified if the monster has more than one. If the monster has an item, you can get the item instead of the dispel. AND IT IS ON A 5 MINUTE RECAST TIMER.

The very fact that they think an ability as restricted as Aurasteal is overpwered for THF should give you a pretty good idea of just how weak they want THF to stay because of lolTreasure Hunter placebo effects.

I won't even go into the heaping, rotting, pile of useless insulting garbage that is Despoil.

Essentially, they want us to be a "pickpocket" in gimick and name only...not in any kind of functionally useful way.

Then we have the absurd things they keep saying about our ability to "control" enmity. Trick Attack is a useless enmity tool. No tank needs help reaching the enmity cap.

Collaborator once a minute is not controlling enmity in any situation. Accomplice, being on a 5 minute recast, isn't worth using because it prevents collaborator use for 5 minutes.

We cired out for the range oc collaborator to be exteneded...and THEY LISTENED.....with one of the most epic troll updates I have seen in a while lol..... 4 FREAKING YALMS!!!?? 4 yalms is useless, but thanks for the kick in the nuts lol.

I forget where I was going with this...or even what I was responding to. Are we still offering feedback on this garbage like there is anyone actually listening to it? lol

[Insaniac]

Well... SE is clearly scarred to death of steal and for that matter anything about THF that might throw off the delicate balance that they seem to believe they have created. So, anything item based is off the table. As hard as it is for some to accept, TH3 is a looking like a scam. This leaves us with a few reasonable directions to explore that would make sense for THF.

The first and most obvious is enmity control. Karbuncle made a post that was exactly what would need to be done to make us control enmity instead of just kinda maybe doing something that might be marginally helpful for a few seconds.

The basic idea is that we need separated timers on the hate control abilities we already have and a way to put the enmity we steal onto other members of the alliance. Being able to dump enmity on the fly without planting it on someone else was another part of it. The enmity douse JA on a 10 minute timer would be fine with me.

One way to handle teh transfer of enmity that I think would be very interesting would be to store the enmity stolen in a way similar to sublimation and allow us the option to dump that when we do a TA or TAWS. If you wanna make me really happy add a damage boost based on how much enmity we have stored. Could include SA in this as well but instead add the enmity to the THFs if it's not stacked with TA. A 1-3 minute timer on this would make me happy.

The second option is amazingly the most under utilized facet of THF. Stealing... I don't know how this happened but somehow stealing things became the most neglected part of THF. It's mind boggling. There are so many possibilities in the JAs but all 3 or our steal type abilities do little to nothing. Steal can stay as it is.. 5 minutes.. whatever. I don't care i never use it to steal things anyway.

Aura steal on the other hand has an outrageously long recast. Anything over 3 minutes is just absurd. It's a glorified dispel and 90% of the time that's what it's used as. There are a few exceptions like wivre haste yovra boost and hippo boost but that's not a justification to gimp the ability.

Despoil is the absolute worst JA added since the level 75 cap and it's in the running for most useless ever. First and foremost it needs it's own timer. It's never used because aura steal is better. 2nd it needs targeted debuffs (despoil acc, despoil att, ect. ect.) and it needs to work on mobs that have nothing to steal. In fact remove the ability to steal an item at all in exchange for a huge increase to debuff accuracy. Put it on a 3 minute timer and call it a day.

Mug - Cut the gil stolen to 33% of what it was or remove it completely. Lower the recast to 5 minutes. Add a damage and stun effect. Mug fixed.

The 3rd option would be party enhancement. Some things of interest to me would be a JA that drastically raises crit and magic crit rates and adds a moderate crit damage boost against the target for a window of lets say 10 seconds. Long enough to pull off an SC + MB. Put it on a 3-5 minute timer.

A JA that forces a target player to crit on his next swing or WS would be amazing and people would absolutely love THF for it. It would really take cooperation and timing to make it go off without a hitch but when it did it would be glorious. Call it "Tip Off" and put it on a 3 minute timer.

An ability to transfer a buff you have stolen to all party members within range would be neat too.

I could stay up all night posting ideas as they pop into my head so I should stop now. Credit to Karbuncle Nebo and whoever else I stole idea's from.

[noodles355]

The only thing native Dual Wield is good for is so it doesn't unequip my offhand weapon when I change to /BLM for warp when I'm doing quests or something.Actually, that's the one thing I don't like about native dual wield. I've lost count of the times I've turned up to events as /Blm, assuming two daggers = /nin.

[noodles355]

However if both had empyrean, PUP just jumped up big time (Victory smite is boss),Have you ever actually compared Victory Smite and Stringing pummel? Assuming all hits connect and no extra attacks, Smite has 5.25FTP and Pummel has 5.75. Smite has 60% Str, Pummel has 32% Vit 32% Str. They both crit. Victory Smite has extra potential because it has more room for extra DA/TA procs, and a 8hit Smite is 9.25FTP vs an 8hit Pummel's 7.75, but not like pup gets a tonne of DA and TA outside abyssea. If anything, it's the ODD that pushes it ahead, howver a mythic Pup should still destroy an Empyrean Pup. Strining Pummel + WS damage boost from Lv90 Kenonken + OAT > ODD.

[JofJAX]

I've lurked these forums for quite a while, and have to say, I like what they are adding to thief but I also think current abilities need to be adjusted. I can see both sides of the Steal/Aura Steal/Mug/Despoil issue (Mug worst of all). Honestly, I don't know why thieves don't like collaborator, its one of the most useful and effective abilities I know of... Anyway, when neither side of an argument can come to an agreement, they compromise.

I don't think it would be too popular over all with the THF populace in general though.

I've lurked these forums for quite a while, and have to say, I like what they are adding to thief but I also think current abilities need to be adjusted. I can see both sides of the Steal/Aura Steal/Mug/Despoil issue (Mug worst of all).Anyway, when neither side of an argument can come to an agreement, they compromise.

So, in the spirit of compromise I suggest a few changes for the better.


1. Steal/Despoil/Mug/Aura Steal/Feint
No thief has been happy with despoil or mug... they are pretty useless, the Devs think otherwise.
Players hate shared timers, Devs seem to love it. So why not go with the middle ground and give us charges.
I say lump them all into a sub menu and give us a Charge System.

Prowler's/Vagabond's/Vigilante's/Transient (dunno what to call it) Arts/Tech/Ways: 2-5 charges (charges increase as you level) on a 5 min per charge timer. (reducible through the current group 1 steal merits and makes these merits useful!) This would be a job ability much like SCH Stratagems with the abilities nested within. Abilities within are usable as long as a charge is present.

Abilities:
Steal Item: Steals an item like normal (combine the current Despoil item pool)
Steal Gil: Steals gil (the current mug, could reduce the amount stolen if needed, or just get rid of it, none of us would care.)
Mug: Stuns the target
Hide: Removes all hate from the Thief regardless of the mob and allows Sneak attack from any angle, also grants Sneak, Invisible, and deodorize. (This needs to be changed and making it share charges is even more reason to do it)

Replacements for Despoil:
Ransack: Steals 8% of the targets attack. Effect lasts 1 minute.
(mob receives effect of Attack down player receives the effect of Attack up)
Bewilder: Steals 8% of the targets Accuracy. Effect lasts 1 minute.
(mob receives effect of Accuracy down player receives the effect of Accuracy up)

Merit-able abilities:
Aura Steal: Dispels an enhancement from the mob and has a chance to apply it to the player
(chance to gain on player increased by merits)
Feint: reduces enemy's evasion by 50%, grants the player 8% evasion boost. Effect lasts 30 Sec.
(1st merit gets the EVA down then each merit after adds 2% evasion boost)

All of these abilities would be under the "Thief's Art" JA, This would allow players to choose what to use when appropriate and still limit the player to 5 min per steal and make the player plan ahead for the upcoming battle. Placing Feint in this category is a sacrifice I am personally willing to make... This also leaves room for stances later should SE ever decide to implement them.

While this is not as much as players want, its more than we currently have so I see it as a win win situation. Also placing other abilities like Hide with in this would allow it the ability to be upgraded to a more desired level by adding sneak, and/or the ability to loose hate on Sneak type mobs.


2. Perfect dodge:
Thieves were told long ago that they would receive an upgrade to their 2 hour. Currently the ability is purely defensive, I would like it to remain this way but to add more to keep in line with the enmity control aspect of the job. Add an enmity stealing effect when activated that steals the ALL enmity of any and ALL party members located behind the Thief.

This could become a risk/reward factor to the ability and add another positioning aspect to the job. Choose to save the dying PLD of the over-nuking BLM? It would also be nice if ranged attacks are also dodged, Nukes and AoE abilities would still damage the THF.

It would also be nice if you could Sneak Attack from any side while Perfect Dodge is active and allow Trick Attack to transfer 25 - 50% of the thief's hate to the player in front of him in addition to the hate generated by the attack. (A smart THF would pre-charge SA and/or TA before using the 2 hour.)


3. Sneak and Trick Attacks
I don't see this happening but wouldn't mind it either, but placing Sneak and Trick attack in another Charge System scenario.

Assassins Art's: Max charge of 2 with a 30 second per charge timer. SA and TA nested within and working like SCHs stratagems abilities.

The idea here is that every 30 sec, the player chooses Sneak attack or Trick attack or to wait until both are up. This would help us thieves in that if a mob is moving too much we can just use Trick Attack to help keep hate on the tank and forgo Sneak Attack. In the opposite way, the THF could use sneak attack more often if they wish to attain hate and/or co-tank. Both attacks could be used together same as they can be now with SATA if desired every Minute. The Sneak and Trick merits could be combined into 1 and lower the charge timer a few seconds.

Another thing that could make a difference is making both Sneak and Trick attacks have a Boost like effect when used over and over again before hitting a mob. This would help us out in fights where we are in the party mostly for hate control and not allowed to melee as much.

[Karbuncle]

Have you ever actually compared Victory Smite and Stringing pummel? Assuming all hits connect and no extra attacks, Smite has 5.25FTP and Pummel has 5.75. Smite has 60% Str, Pummel has 32% Vit 32% Str. They both crit. Victory Smite has extra potential because it has more room for extra DA/TA procs, and a 8hit Smite is 9.25FTP vs an 8hit Pummel's 7.75, but not like pup gets a tonne of DA and TA outside abyssea. If anything, it's the ODD that pushes it ahead, howver a mythic Pup should still destroy an Empyrean Pup. Strining Pummel + WS damage boost from Lv90 Kenonken + OAT > ODD.

Yes and


If anything, it's the ODD that pushes it ahead,

Yes, It more or less was my point, I think in that post i go on to say how THF needs to use a less powerful WS to keep Aftermath up, that was more of an addendum.

Basically i was saying "Victory Smite is a great WS, so in using it you dont sacrifice damage to keep Aftermath up"

thirdly, I'm aware Kenkoken are powerful, and are better, however, i was just not using it for comparison at the current time.

[Arcon]

Actually, that's the one thing I don't like about native dual wield. I've lost count of the times I've turned up to events as /Blm, assuming two daggers = /nin.

I didn't even think about that, but now that you mentioned it's painfully familiar. My idle-set macro used to be indicator of when I had the right sub. Red error message = /BLM. Don't get that anymore..

[SpankWustler]

Honestly, I don't know why thieves don't like collaborator, its one of the most useful and effective abilities I know of...

You misunderstand. It's not a matter of disliking the ability, it's a matter of disliking the small amount of enmity taken and the recast. At 25% Enmity and 1 minute recast, it's nearly useless on anyone who does a worthwhile amount of damage. This basically leaves Thiefy Thiefington with the ability to make life easier for one single healer after a hate reset, assuming that healer is in Mr. Thiefington's party.

Think of as a delicious slice of pie. Except it's a tiny slice. A very tiny slice. Also, it's hurled into your face rather than being placed on your plate. Also, it's still sizzling hot out of the oven. It's kind of like that.

[Karbuncle]

You misunderstand. It's not a matter of disliking the ability, it's a matter of disliking the small amount of enmity taken and the recast. At 25% Enmity and 1 minute recast, it's nearly useless on anyone who does a worthwhile amount of damage. This basically leaves Thiefy Thiefington with the ability to make life easier for one single healer after a hate reset, assuming that healer is in Mr. Thiefington's party.

Think of as a delicious slice of pie. Except it's a tiny slice. A very tiny slice. Also, it's hurled into your face rather than being placed on your plate. Also, it's still sizzling hot out of the oven. It's kind of like that.

^ Explained it quite nicely.

Its not that we dislike the ability, its that SE gave us 2 abilities on a shared timer, and now think we're "Masters of enmity control" that everyone wants around, When in reality they're both incredibly limited to the point of uselessness.

I.E: You take 25% of 1 Persons Enmity per minute, that 1 person in 17, and 12/17 of those people you can't even touch with this ability, and that 25% Enmity is dumped on to the THF, so if the THF keeps using that 25% Enmity claim, Eventually the THF ends up tanking, read: THF dies.

We have no way to Move that Enmity, or Disperse it. We need a bit more control over Enmity to be considered for that use. I posted ideas a while back, I'll paraphrase them

*Split Accomp/Collab timers
*Reduce Collab to 30sec
*Reduce Accomp to 2min
*Add Ability "Frame". Grants 25% of your Enmity to Party member - 1min timer
*Add Ability "Disperse" Throws away 25% of your Enmity - ?min Timer
*Allow Coll/Acomp to work cross alliances

Thats paraphrasing those ideas.

[Arcon]

Think of as a delicious slice of pie. Except it's a tiny slice. A very tiny slice. Also, it's hurled into your face rather than being placed on your plate. Also, it's still sizzling hot out of the oven. It's kind of like that.

I wanna like all your posts. You're the man. The metaphor man.

[Karbuncle]

Despite our best efforts, It appears the development team still refuses to hear our cries


Thief

Bully (Lv. 93)
Intimidates target

I guess it could be somewhat useful When soloing? I wonder if its a Permanent Effect (ala Gnoles and their Call of the Moon), or its a 1-time thing?

I could see some potential in it, but If its just a 1-time "Stun" Type thing I'm putting this next to Despoil as biggest waste of an update in the history of FFXI.

Heres hoping for the best! (I am really hoping for the best ... )

Edit: And really, "Bully" >_>? What is scared of a THF, its probably not intimidation thats stopping it from attacking, its probably rolling on the floor laughing its arse off at the prospect of THF being intimidating.

[Mirage]

Don't worry guys, we can intimidate mobs now!

edit
Karby's edit stole my funny :(

[Laphine]

man, i have exactly 0 hope for this JA ; ;

probably won't work on NMs, probably won't work if we don't have the mobs attention...

[Karbuncle]

I hold your exact same fear Laphine.

Like, they want THF to be a party oriented job, But if they give it an Ability that intimidates the mob only if THF is the tank, they must not really be in too many parties. cause a THF is never the tank unless he's the only DD in the group, and by that, I mean he's soloing or Duoing.

This is me holding back my nerd-rage btw, I'll save the heavy stuff once we know the specifics. good or bad.

[Alaik]

No, it'll last for 2 seconds and have a 5 minute recast, will be highly accurate on trash, 95% of NMs will be immune. Absolutely worthless. Though yes, look AT ALL THOSE THINGS THAT MAKE THF shine.


Honestly maybe SE physically can't update THF. Maybe they fired the guy who knew how the THF spaghetti code worked. Honestly they're begging other players to take us, but they won't give them a reason why they should.

(Look at how many threads that say, "Our fix to PLD is bring a THF." "DD, don't fret! You can help manage enmity levels by bringing a THF! You guys think hate reset is cheap difficulty? Bring a THF!"

It's like they KNOW THF is worthless, but they forgot where our sub directory was which held our abilities, JAs, etc.

[Karbuncle]

Or its like they only play their game in vacuum situations that work in perfect tandem with our worthless abilities, and then think that they're okay because of it.

Something tells me they think THF is already a good job, But if thats the case, They couldn't play their game any less. Right now the only Reason THF is so high on the jobs leveled is not because its good, Its because people believe in the power of Placebo Hunter.

"Development Team: The job sucks, No one thinks THF is a good job, The only reason people level or it bother to bring it is because of Placebo Hunter, Can you please give us meaningful adjustments? The job is dying, and if Voidwatch is the best content of the future, The job is as it stands complete dead and worthless"

Collab/Accomp are nice abilities, But they're way too limited, If you want THF to be even considered for Enmity control you need to do something to those abilities, and add/build on them, improve them, They are not fine as is. Please, I know you guys are the Devs of the game, but what ever happen to "The customer knows best"? We play this game in realtime situations, we understand the ups and downs as much as you do. Is it so much to ask you might consider our pleas for use?

[Laphine]

you mean ALL THAT ONE THING THAT MAKE THF shine? that one thing that was found recently to have close to the same effect of the subbed version...

[Karbuncle]

yup, they probably look at the Vana'diel consensus and see THF high on the list and assume that means the job is good.

Which is going to be the death of the job. The assumption its fine, when in reality, Its sitting on the floor bleeding out from gunsoht wounds, and SE just keeps handing us a Band-aid. Shame that won't help...

[Byrth]

I really don't understand why SE is afraid of Treasure Hunter, Steal, or Mug at all. You can enter Abyssea and work up to 500 Cruor/kill (1.3k gil per kill per player via Chocobo Blinkers) pretty quickly. AoE two groups of monsters down to ~20%, alternate which one you kill, pop gold chests and get fragments/weapons/etc., make a mil per hour if you have a few mules. Saying it takes an hour to set up is being generous. The gil mostly comes straight from an NPC, too.

Compared to that, how is a real treasure hunter trait increase going to break game balance? How is increasing Gilfinder, Mug, or Steal going to break game balance?

I think they're worried about increasing our efficiency to the point that we blow through new content like we blew through Abyssea. They know the release schedule is going to be slow, and they're making sure we don't get through it before they move on to the next thing by keeping the drop rates low.

[Karbuncle]

I don't mind no real update to TH if their goal is to keep Content slow/tedious.

But they could at least do other things to the job lol... Like maybe some small damage potential, more control over Enmity, Better uses for Steal/Mug/Despoil. (I.E lower timers, perhaps have them deal damage and grant TP similar to jumps, have them modded by DEX, make people actually use them for more than just maybe getting lucky dispelling something).

As it stands, every THF update so far has just been a Diarrhea cannon pointed at us while we brace for impact.

[Vold]

Since Bully is going to suck and SE apparently wants us to tank in a low man setting despite their best efforts to convince us otherwise, the least they could have done was make this JA so that the mob is frozen in fear and we could realistically run around to the back and SA it. WTF is intimidate supposed to do that our evasion doesn't already do for us?

[Vold]

Honestly maybe SE physically can't update THF. Maybe they fired the guy who knew how the THF spaghetti code worked. Honestly they're begging other players to take us, but they won't give them a reason why they should.It goes back to the whole HNM syndrome thing. They don't like change. HNM was broken forever because they didn't want to do change, so naturally they wait until it was killed by Abyssea and put the nails into the coffin with the KSNM non sense. Right now it's pretty obvious their view of THF is that they trade damage output for treasure rewards. Except now BST has had TH2 for awhile and other jobs are following. So why is THF being restricted now? Because even though they no longer have exclusive TH rights, they now have a THIII trait and +3 in gear and procs.

Wait a minute, you mean the THIII trait with +3 in gear and TH procs that's completely worthless in newly released content because you don't want no one getting through it anytime soon? Right. Okay. Why are you purposely gimping jobs? That is never okay on any level, ever. But yet that's always the answer to a problem to make things "balanced" Souleater being resisted. Gravity, bind, and silence damn near being resisted by anything ever since two years ago. I could very much go on....

But you know what? Whatever, man. I'm sick of this game being held back because of low developer support, that shit has to be gimped in order to stretch content out over the span of three months or longer at a time. It's part of the FFXI experience at this point, as far as I am concerned. From here on out when I see the word "balance", I'm going to think "best way to buy time in between updates"

[Smush]

idk idk, the spreadsheets kinematics made sure show this as well. My thf build is able to beat a equally geared (or the much i know about )/buffed ukon war/sam there. So after i got to this conclusion i kinda stopped my lust for power.

edit: equally buffed is key tho. More haste (mainly) and war starts going crazy. But anyways, i didn't even set magic haste: outside abyssea we both get tp in ~32 secs (5 hit war btw). And this also is another advantage for me because the WSing syncs with SA/TA.

I got the about the same resultes and i know that the spreedsheet is very accurate i did thr spreedsheet on the stats of Bukhis but outside abyssea.


THF:

Results Set 1

Target Bukhis SA Dmg 524
Level 101 SA Round Dmg 0
pDif Correction 0.55
Defense 560 TA Dmg 418
Dia II? 1 TA Round Dmg 0
Final Def 504
Evasion 430 Melee damage per round 101
Vit 110
Agi 100 Damage per second (total melee) 29.092

WS Dmg 0
SA WS Dmg 2097
Over-TP Rnds: 0.5 TA WS Dmg 1814
Avg SATA Dly: 5
Norm Cycle Time 0.000
SAWS Cycle Time 2099.995
TAWS Cycle Time 2099.820
Leftover Cycle Time 0.000

Norm Cycle Dmg 0.000
SAWS Cycle Dmg 3028.212
TAWS Cycle Dmg 2745.131
Leftover Cycle Dmg 0.000

Total Dmg 5773.344

Overall DPS 96.222



WAR:

Target Defbuffed: Level Corr: Food:
Level 97 Red C Bun
Defense 560 504 0.35
Evasion 430 430
Agi 92
Vit 91

Crit merits: 5%
OAT rate: 0%
Over-TP Rnds: 0.5 Hasso1



-Agg/Ber +Agg/Ber
Total Dmg 2560 3122
TP/hit:
Round Dly 482 482 13.0
Magic Haste 0% 0%
JA Haste 10% 10%
Gear Haste 25% 25%
Total Haste 35% 35%
Min Dly 96.4 96.4
Haste Dly 313.30 313.30
Total Dly 1799 1799

DPS 85.384 104.132
Avg DPS: 98.883


I been doing alot of Voidwatch i even parsed a few and before this i had only heard thf was really weak on thes and are dmg was crap. But once i got the the T3-T4 i see that its not even how i read i have 2 masa sams and a ukon war them and me make up the DD pt and its a very close race all the time we only fight mobs posy about 50% or less depending on mob and once we proc'd to the max you get dusty wings and by the time we fight we have 2 so we all start with tp its easy to land SA or TA since pld is the one with hate and hes capped once we start. Rudra storm does 2nd only to ukko furry and thats when it spikes RS is more consistent when you SA or TA and its very easy to land in this situation i have had my share of top parse sheets and right now i feel my thf is good in the DD department now that i have seen what it can do on the VWNMs.

[Khajit]

Make sure Ukyo's has the correct crit rate. IT has something retardedly high like a 25% crit bonus attacked to it at 100tp.

[Smush]

Make sure Ukyo's has the correct crit rate. IT has something retardedly high like a 25% crit bonus attacked to it at 100tp.

i did its 30% at 100 tp and i used the 5 hit setup and the outside abyssea set up i found to try and make it best setup i can

[Laphine]

Indeed my war spreadsheet had only 10% crit bonus. Changed it to 30% but the result didn't change much. 140 vs 132.

Against bukhis i'm still winning 82 vs 79. I'm curious that your overall dps is higher tho.


outside abyssea we both get tp in ~32 secs (5 hit war btw)
I completely forgot about haste from equip here. It's 24 secs for thf vs 21 secs for war.

[Insaniac]

Straight math doesn't work for THF. There's too much x-factor that you just can't math and all of that x-factor results in lower damage where with WAR all the stuff you can't math results in higher damage. If you put both jobs on a training dummy that didn't fight back or move or anything then maybe the results would come out close.

Voidwatch isn't the best place to run parses either. There's too much going on with procs and various other things. Show me a parse in WoE or Einherjar where a THF isn't scraping the bottom of the barrel for damage.

As for the new ability, at least they appear to have removed the party requirement. Maybe this will be moderately useful. I'm not holding my breath but at least it has potential now. I'm not gonna judge it til I see it.

I gotta say though... it's pretty lackluster as our only new JA. Hopefully we get some secret JT levels like DW3 and Crit damage 3.

[Laphine]

Math shows damage potential. The potential is there for thf, we just can't grasp it. And again, low haste really do give us an edge (sa/ta doesn't get any faster). But low haste it's much easier for us to grasp that potential. Anyway, numbers with full on haste(marches+3, magic haste, samba, hasso): war 224 dps, thf 130 against something on bukhis level.

edit: then again, the thf spreadsheet is not using solo ws between sa/taed ones. And we should be able to use SA+RS -> evis -> TA+RS -> evis and still keep the aftermath 100% up with all that haste. I pretty much can do this inside abyssea with magic haste only.

[FrankReynolds]

also please note that if you are anywhere near the same damage as the war, you are going to have to hold back damage anytime you want the mob too look away long enough to land SA, assuming the war is the only person the mob is spinning towards.

[Reaux]

DRK gets Aura Steal yay for more things being given away!

[Insaniac]

What the math doesn't take into account is that you can't reliably SA once mobs start riding spinnars. It doesn't count retaliation damage/TP either I assume? Spreadsheets are good for comparing gear sets but imo when you start using them to compare jobs it's just for shits and giggles.

[Laphine]

Well, if you can't trust math what is it that you are going to trust? Parses? That's even worse. The main issue is off course the human issue. This spreadsheet doesn't account retaliation. But comparing jobs with parses would need big and controlled parses so we remove the luck factor from things like retaliation. Hell, the very basis of damage is luck based (pdif).

[FrankReynolds]

Retaliation proc rate is always going to be > 0 damage. SA damage is always going to be < 100% of potential.

[Laphine]

always is a very strong word..

[Arcon]

always is a very strong word..

It's true though. And I don't believe that math one bit. I find it hard to believe your experiences as well. I'm both THF and WAR, and I've compared against both other THF and other WAR a lot, and every time the difference was more than "noticeable" it was gaping. WAR + THF is pretty much the same as WAR only, DD wise, that's how much THF pales in comparison. I don't know where you're getting your experiences from.

And parses are actually reliable, if done under a large number of varying circumstances (law of large numbers). Math is perfect, but your math isn't. Statistics is also part of the math required to calculate the average damage, which is what the spreadsheet doesn't do. This includes people's behaviour during battle, the expected value for SA/TA uses, the expected value for SA/TA success, the expected Retaliation bonus, the expected Restraint bonus, etc. There are just tons of statistical factors that the spreadsheets don't cover, so that math is partial and unreliable.

The only thieves I've ever seen pull their weight in DD situations were Breaze (Mythic/X's, full Skadi set) and Alljoker (Mandau, full Hecatomb +1 set and all around perfect gear). And that was at 75 on birds.

Sure, if you just take any random WAR... despite what people say about Abyssea's difficulty, it still requires skill to be actually good. The bar for good and bad has just changed, but there's still bad people. They perform better compared to before, but still a lot worse to actually good players.

[Smush]

most times we let tanks cap hate so i can land SA easy and TA for is already easy to land after that mobs dead or almost with 2 masa 1 ukon and my twash + a wildfire cor and if you pull hate on a VWNM T3-4 and your not a pld you will die fast... trust me i have experienced it.
If they make SA easier to land or add a new type of force crit thats easier to land with a good mod then i think thf will be right where it needs to in DD and im sure we will get more DW. could use more hate abilities tho.

[Alaik]

Well there's two sides to that argument. You can't rely on parses for most things as human error will always make it lower than your potential. However, given THF is a job that is hugely based on human interaction, putting it in a bubble is stupid. I will be looking at the spreadsheet tonight, because if you guys are saying it's allowing THF to hit dDEX caps easier than WARs I'm hugely suspicious. On VT/IT mobs we simply are not going to pair up or beat an Ukon WAR, not unless you're comparing an amazing THF vs a bad WAR or buffing the THF all to hell and not the WAR.

EDIT: At work so can't do much but I figured what the hell and got the spreadsheet, and yeah, there's tons missing. Retaliation being a factor as mentioned, but also, I'm getting a huge difference using it on the same target when both jobs have the same buffs in WAR's favor, not THF's. Maybe you guys wouldn't mind posting the two spreadsheets you're using for a better comparison?

[Laphine]

What experieces did i provide? I only did talk about the spreadsheet. The only experience i have versus an ukon war was when my friend and i finished our emps back in january. He, off course, beat me handily and we both pretty much stopped playing ever since. I can't talk about experience and that was an inside abyssea experience. All this current talk is about outside tho. And the fact remains that thf has everything in its favor to decrease difference against war.

[Alaik]

I mean put a link to your modified spreadsheet up. Experiences as in, your experience using the spreadsheet. Kinematics usually does amazing work which is why I was kinda WTFing at you saying it showed THF beating WAR as a DD. So I wanted to see if one of us was using a field incorrectly to cause the pure math to skew in another's favor.

What do you mean, "And the fact remains that thf has everything in its favor to decrease difference against war." also?

[FrankReynolds]

Always IS a very strong word. If the war is going all out (which is the premise of the discussion), he will always pull hate and retaliate eventually.

[Laphine]

That's outside. Since outside we don't have crazy crits, sa/ta means more. Not only comparing against other jobs, that's comparing ourselves too. When we SA the ratio of damage between the main hit and its whole round is bigger outside. But SA/TA can only do so much, and we fall back when haste is stacked in.

The other aspect is that of melee crits. If we take the agi Kinematics uses for lv97 mobs and apply them outside. THF has capped crit while meleeing and war simply doesn't. Meanwhile our af (and we can use 4 pieces unlike most jobs) is a nice mix-match of acc, attack and dex.

edit: the issue was not war not retaliating Frank. It was saying that a thf will always miss at least one SA/TA.

[Alaik]

And as a rule, THF will miss one. A good THF will miss them less than a bad one but to even imply a THF won't is lol.

Also, again can I see your editted spreadsheets? Putting it in again, and I don't see THF capping crit so easily when WAR doesn't. One of us must be doing something wrong.

Also, pick an area inside or outside. Inside every job has capped crits and a WHM can do amazing dmg. You use stats for inside abyssea but then act like SA usage is for outside (AKA, mob not on the fastest attacker or spinning tons). There's also the fact that a stacked WS is going to do as much as an unstacked WS for a WAR. Differences between the two only come down to the fact a THF ends up getting some JA pause to use SA/TA/AC/whatever whereas WARs abilities only incur that penalty once for a much longer duration. (3 minutes vs one hit), etc.

Would you mind posting the spreadsheets with your information plugged in?

[Laphine]

oh yeah, sorry. How can i show them to you tho?

There are situations where we won't miss. If the fight is quick for one. For me, it's simply more reasonable to say we might miss at least one than we will always miss at least one.

[Alaik]

Save the file, put it on google documents and post the link.

As far as the missing SA goes, I believe on Alla Breaze (Maybe Melphina) during einherjar they parsed their ability to land SA and it was at 80% or so. I can't find the thread, but hopefully someone else can.

When I parsed my einherjar events I parsed 80-90%. 80% is one in five. That's hardly a negligible amount.

[Laphine]

war~ (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ara-vwP2rzNWdHU0eWRBWl9fUUNIaHBGNElLRjJZR3c&hl=en_US)
thf~ (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B7a-vwP2rzNWODI1Y2FlYWItNTg4Ni00MDVhLTk5ZDEtYWI3MDUwZTYyMTE4&hl=en_US)

Hope it works. Never used google docs.

[Alaik]

Thanks. Once you post the THF one we'll be able to see what's causing the numbers. I already see we set up the WARs differently. (You didn't factor in DA really) You also have Voracious Violet on one of their atma, yet somehow place their WS DA rate as 15%? That's 20% DA from their absolute base and the VV atma alone. I also have different STR values. +166 STR during WS for a WAR inside abyssea is REALLY low. Keep in mind, that VV atma you use adds 50 alone, an Ukon is 15. Base STR at 90 for an elvaan WAR at least is around the 100 mark. That means excluding all gear but Ukon you're at 165 STR. Needless to say, you can get MUCH higher and inside abyssea, 166 STR on a WS is a pretty bad WAR.

The WAR has no GA merits, on mine I assumed full merits for both, dagger for THF, Gaxe for WAR.

You also show no bonus crit damage or rate though the atmas are on there.

That's just a small glimpse, again, sorry I'm at work and the EMS Gods are very busy today it seems. 6 wrecks so far, joy.

Have fun posting the THF one. I know THF has like, 901 variables you have to plug in.

EDIT: By the time I typed that out you had posted the spreadsheet. iFail.

[Alaik]

Alright, so, basically. The WAR is not buffed, the THF is, the mob is not debuffed for the WAR and it has Dia II for the THF. Those two spreadsheets show the WAR fighting a level 101 target, but the THF fighting a 97.

And I think looking at the WARs again, you're saying his WS dmg with berserk/agg up is 1211 with Ukon? I may be misunderstanding that. Your spreadsheet looks abit different.

All those factors alone I could see making a huge impact in THF's favor.

Oh, the THF is fully meritted, the WAR isn't.

[Laphine]

I removed everything abysseawise from the war spreadsheet. From the start i was talking about outside. War has low str because i removed cruor buffs. And those 3 columns of atmas are so i copy-paste if i wanted to change. The war has Gaxe merits too.

It is 1211 with zerk up indeed. Idk if new spreadsheets changed this. I thought i had the newest one when i decided to compare war and thf. 1211 didn't surprise me so much. It is a lv 101 mob with 560 defense (504 debuffed) we are talking about.

Btw, the thf spreadsheet still has abyssea mode on. Easy enough to change tho. Oh wait ninja edits after ninja edits lol. Yeah thf is completely set to abyssea. Just change target to bukhis and set the 'in abyssea?' variable to 0.

[Alaik]

Yeah I was wanting to see how you set up with the same buffs on the same target with the same debuffs to get that THF was ahead of WAR, which is why me and everyone else was WTFing. Also, once you correct all of that and put them both on equal footing with the same level of merits, on the same mob, with the same debuffs on the mob, with the same buffs, WAR beats THF. By a lot.

[Laphine]

wait...
they are on the same grounds. Where are you getting they aren't?

Thf was inside abyssea because i play around a lot with the spreadsheet. But it's easy enough to change it there. It's a 2 cell change. Everything else is the same. Both with dia2 up, both with capped weapon and crit merits. None of them buffed but war with hasso. That's being on the same ground for me. If you change target to bukhis and in abyssea to 0 thf will have 84 dps. War is there with 79.5.

Outside abyssea was all i cared about. No surprise that war beats thf inside.

[Alaik]

That's interesting.

http://s724.photobucket.com/albums/ww242/FFXI_User/?action=view&current=THF.jpg

http://s724.photobucket.com/albums/ww242/FFXI_User/?action=view&current=WAR.jpg

Those are what your spreadsheets are showing for me, and those stats are vastly different.

Some seem to have changed recently, however several of the issues are still there.

Though again, it's INSIDE that lets THF not be so far behind WAR. Outside on VT-IT stuff WAR decimates us.

[SpankWustler]

The job updates in general made me happy. The Thief update, however, is sad.

No matter how many times I read the text for Bully, all I can see is "Feral Howl II: A Job Ability Sucks Again"

I'd like to think it's better than it sounds, given what other jobs are getting, but given the development team's weird ideas about Steal and Mug I am less than optimistic. The robotic pterodactyl named BAD END is circling.

[FrankReynolds]

Somehow i picture this being a cheap stun that they intended to be our version of perfect counter.

[Vold]

The job updates in general made me happy. The Thief update, however, is sad.

No matter how many times I read the text for Bully, all I can see is "Feral Howl II: A Job Ability Sucks Again"

I'd like to think it's better than it sounds, given what other jobs are getting, but given the development team's weird ideas about Steal and Mug I am less than optimistic. The robotic pterodactyl named BAD END is circling.I like the wording of Bully. It certainly fits THF. It's a rogue. It's a tough guy. Generally when you bully(and I say this with zero experience as being a bully nor being bullied so I guess I'm kind of pulling crap from my ass here)you strike fear into the victim, hence my idea that in game it freezes your foe in fear aka terror so you can run around and SA it.

Even if this ability worked without the mob facing you, I think THFs in general are tired of JAs that help anyone but themselves. It won't be long before we're considered a support job at this rate.

[Khajit]

I personally would have called it extortion. Sounds cooler.

[Karbuncle]

I personally would have called it extortion. Sounds cooler.

the "X" in Extortion makes it sound cool.

[Khajit]

20% cooler!

[Insaniac]

Xtreme Xtortion!!!

[Motenten]

then again, the thf spreadsheet is not using solo ws between sa/taed ones. And we should be able to use SA+RS -> evis -> TA+RS -> evis and still keep the aftermath 100% up with all that haste. I pretty much can do this inside abyssea with magic haste only.

The spreadsheet should be able to manage that mix of SA+WS/TA+WS/solo WS. I can only see solo weaponskills not showing up if the total time for gaining TP for SA+WS and TA+WS (in the spreadsheet calculations) puts the SA timer back up. Possibly an issue with the spreadsheet configuration?


What the math doesn't take into account is that you can't reliably SA once mobs start riding spinnars. It doesn't count retaliation damage/TP either I assume? Spreadsheets are good for comparing gear sets but imo when you start using them to compare jobs it's just for shits and giggles.

The spreadsheet can be configured to not use either SA (can't get behind mob) or TA (no second person to TA onto), so you can look at how your damage changes based on what sort of conditions you're operating under.


To those doubting the full validity of the spreadsheets, please continue to do so. I'm the one who wrote them, and I'm well aware of the gaps in what they can account for. But also look into what shows the greatest weaknesses, and what may be getting blown out of proportion. For example, in the config I have on mine right now (high haste config), going from solo SA to no SA at all drops DPS from 361 to 358; almost inconsequential. In the other config (low haste), it drops from 232 to 224, somewhat more significant. Either way, even if you only land SA 80% of the time, it shouldn't be hurting your total DPS *too* much.

It's easiest for me to work around the gaps, though, since I know where most of those are, and can account for them. It may be more difficult for someone who's not intimately familiar with all the things the spreadsheet does, though I've tried to streamline and simplify things as much as possible.

Also, the spreadsheets take a lot of time and work to put together, and different spreadsheets are at different stages of 'advancement'. The thf spreadsheet was probably the most complicated to put together, and I welcome any feedback on ways to improve it. The war spreadsheet is one of the older ones, and could probably use some updates.


(and after writing this all out, I see a slew of additional posts on the comparison being made; I'll have to poke around with those)

[Alaik]

Please do, given both of us are probably botching somewhere (Make no mistake I don't claim to be a spreadsheet master) it'd be nice for you to give them equal buffs/etc inside and outside of abyssea. I'm sure every THF would appreciate it, and it'd at least stop the "THF is bad DD" vs. "THF is a mediocre DD" or "THF is a good DD" debates for awhile.

Also, I propose Shake Down as the new ability's name.

[Insaniac]

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the spreadsheets. I'm saying there are some things you just can't quantify. They are a useful tool to an extent but trying to apply the math to in game situations rarely ever works.

[Laphine]

That's interesting.

http://s724.photobucket.com/albums/ww242/FFXI_User/?action=view&current=THF.jpg

http://s724.photobucket.com/albums/ww242/FFXI_User/?action=view&current=WAR.jpg

Those are what your spreadsheets are showing for me, and those stats are vastly different.

Some seem to have changed recently, however several of the issues are still there.

Though again, it's INSIDE that lets THF not be so far behind WAR. Outside on VT-IT stuff WAR decimates us.

I thought you were going to download them and experiment with things lol. Well i reuploaded them with some changes. Linky. (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B7a-vwP2rzNWNjUwYTUyNjctYmIyMy00MDJjLThkNmMtZTU4NTQwODA3MDcx&hl=en_US) I just noticed that war doesn't have base DA at 15%, oh well.


The spreadsheet should be able to manage that mix of SA+WS/TA+WS/solo WS. I can only see solo weaponskills not showing up if the total time for gaining TP for SA+WS and TA+WS (in the spreadsheet calculations) puts the SA timer back up. Possibly an issue with the spreadsheet configuration?
Yeah this is curious. I think i remember it behaving like that before. But that was what i got now. I do use excel 2010, i wonder if that's the issue...

[noodles355]

What the math doesn't take into account is that you can't reliably SA once mobs start riding spinnars.You can. it's not hard. Tell the other melee(s) to stand opposite you. Once you're hate capped, pretty much every action will spin the mob. Just hit SA as soon as you see the other hate-capped melee land a hit. You can land SA very reliably once you realise that the mob doesn't spin randomly, but spins on last actions. Sure, you wont land it all the time, the War could land an attack round, then get critted in the face, losing enmity and forcing the mob to spin back whilst you're waiting on JA delay, but it works the majority of the time.

[Motenten]

Presumed constant elements:

Target: Bhukis
Area: Outside Abyssea
Buffs: Haste
Food: Pizza +1 (acc is a real issue here for both jobs)
Merits: full weapon (GA or dagger), 5% crit, 5 str (forgot to change to 8; don't feel like redoing)
Weapons: Empyreal for both
Gear: tricky to be completely fair, but I'll try to set up solid sets for each
War gets /sam
Thf gets /nin


Variables:
War with/without Berserk/Agressor, with/without Hasso, plus overall average
Thf with various combinations of SA and TA use and stacking


Complications on war:
Percentage distribution of combinations of Berserk/Aggressor/Blood Rage

For Berserk/Aggressor:
3 minute fight: 100%
5 minute fight: 60%
7 minute fight: 71%
10 minute fight: 50%
Very long term average: 43.2%

In the abstract, the 43.2% number should be used. However one can almost always expect that timers will be reset by the time of the next fight, so will mostly be using numbers that are more biased towards matching up. I'm going to use the 50% value.

Likewise odds of neither buff being up can be as high as 28% (at about 4 minutes), but drop down to 11.5% at about 13 minutes. I'm going to use 15% here.

That leaves 35% of the time with one or the other buff up. Giving the advantage to merited Berserk here, I'll put those at 20% Berserk only and 15% Agressor only.

I'll be highly optimistic and place Blood Rage in periods with both Berserk and Aggressor active.

So we have:

Berserk+Aggressor+Blood Rage = 10%
Berserk+Aggressor = 40%
Berserk = 20%
Aggressor = 15%
Neither = 15%

And the same with and without Hasso (depending on the conditions of the fight).


Hasso Seigan
BAR 113.001 93.756
BA 101.179 83.956
B 101.053 82.815
A 75.866 62.912
N 75.768 62.023


With overall weighted averages:


Bison Steak (first pass on numbers)
Total 92.823 72.949
Pizza +1
Total 94.727 78.261



Now for thf:

Will consider various combinations of being able to land SA and TA, with or without Rudra's (ODD adjusted appropriately).



No SA/TA or Rudra's: 51.876
No SA, Solo TA, solo Evis: 54.658
Solo SA/TA, solo Evis: 58.585
Solo SA, TA Rudra: 68.822
Solo TA, SA Rudra: 69.240
SA & TA Rudra: 78.499
No SA (miss), TA Rudra: 63.101


So best case for thf matches the war's damage if war can't use Hasso, but short term (when all of war's JAs line up) war will do a lot better. If war can use Hasso, they win by a fair margin (~20%) both short and long term.

Most likely the thf is going to lose a few points from missing SA+Rudra (get ODD, don't get stacked ws) some of the time (3% DPS loss from missing 1 in 5).


Also, I'll be uploading new versions of the war and thf spreadsheets shortly (general cleanup on war, a couple minor fixes for thf), so you can see what gear I happened to pick for the comparison (didn't spend a lot of time trying to optimize the gear).

[SpankWustler]

Target: Bhukis
Area: Outside Abyssea


Even though the hypothetical healer for this hypothetical situation is only hypothetical, I can hear him crying and screaming and pounding his hypothetical Cure V macro. He's pounding that hypothetical Cure V macro as if it's the reason for every hypothetical problem in his hypothetical life.

The result is interesting. As somebody who is usually on a support job or a weird melee job, I did not expect Thiefy Thiefington to come that close to Warry Warrington going all-out. It makes me wonder how Thief's damage would fare if it ever gains Dual Wield III naturally, and could sub Warrior when damage taken wasn't a concern.

[Insaniac]

You can. it's not hard. Tell the other melee(s) to stand opposite you. Once you're hate capped, pretty much every action will spin the mob. Just hit SA as soon as you see the other hate-capped melee land a hit. You can land SA very reliably once you realise that the mob doesn't spin randomly, but spins on last actions. Sure, you wont land it all the time, the War could land an attack round, then get critted in the face, losing enmity and forcing the mob to spin back whilst you're waiting on JA delay, but it works the majority of the time.I know this stuff but what isn't being and can't be quantified is the extra time you spend looking for the right moment to SA. If you ride the timer on SA you are gonna miss way more than 80% of them or you will have to turn for a second or 2. For instance if you activate SA the WAR takes a hit you get hate back and the mob turns and starts casting so either you run around to the other side or count that SA as a loss. You also can't put all the other DD on 1 side of the mob on tons of NMs. For example Bhukis.. if they are all standing on one side you are looking at getting everyone of them doomed except you just so you can land SA more reliably. You just can't do that on any mob with a cone attack. It's not reasonable to ask people to do that on an ironclad type mob with cone melee or a MNK mob because of counters and guards. TA is easy and you can ride the timer no problem but with SA there's a whole series of variables that are stacked against you getting the max potential out of it.

[Motenten]

Just a minor note regarding the issues Insaniac brings up:

Yes, that's certainly an issue. It's roughly accounted for in the spreadsheet by allowing you to specify an average amount of time beyond the recast timer for you to be able to use the abilities. The default is 5 seconds, which corresponds to being able to use the ability anywhere from 0 to 10 seconds after the recast is up, which should cover most minor fluctuations. It does not, however, account for lost melee damage from the times you may need to turn away briefly.

As for the conal issue, no, you don't want all the DDs stacked on one side of the mob. At the same time, most of the DDs don't want to be in front of the mob anyway, so usually they'll try to let the 'tank' keep hate as much as possible rather than spin the mob and have to eat that doom move, which in turn makes it easier to land SA.

[Insaniac]

Just a minor note regarding the issues Insaniac brings up:

Yes, that's certainly an issue. It's roughly accounted for in the spreadsheet by allowing you to specify an average amount of time beyond the recast timer for you to be able to use the abilities. The default is 5 seconds, which corresponds to being able to use the ability anywhere from 0 to 10 seconds after the recast is up, which should cover most minor fluctuations. It does not, however, account for lost melee damage from the times you may need to turn away briefly.

As for the conal issue, no, you don't want all the DDs stacked on one side of the mob. At the same time, most of the DDs don't want to be in front of the mob anyway, so usually they'll try to let the 'tank' keep hate as much as possible rather than spin the mob and have to eat that doom move, which in turn makes it easier to land SA.
I think your spreadsheets are an amazing work. I'm not trying to take anything away from them. I would never try to blame you for not quantifying things that can't be quantified. The only thing I'm trying to get across are that these X-factors for THF only widen the gap between the THF and WAR spreadsheet results.

[Motenten]

It makes me wonder how Thief's damage would fare if it ever gains Dual Wield III naturally, and could sub Warrior when damage taken wasn't a concern.

In that hypothetical case, using the best combo (stacked SA and TA Rudra) but no other changes, DPS is 102.990 with Berserk up and 82.315 with Berserk down; weighted average is 94.72, on par with war using Hasso.

[Insaniac]

I made some edits to the OP like I said I would weeks ago. Mostly trying to better represent the content of the thread since it has become much more than just THF rage (which there is still plenty of) The main thing was links to adjustment ideas posted in the thread. I tried to catch as many as I could but may have missed them if they were short posts. If anyone has one they would like included find it and post the link and I will add it if it's not already covered in one of the other posts.

It was funny skimming back through the pages and seeing the different directions the thread had taken. The basic cycle is:

SE posts something > We rage > we calm down and discuss > we digress a bit > SE trolls us again and the process repeats

[SpankWustler]

Thanks for taking the time to plug in numbers from what was just me day-dreaming. I wasn't expecting that.

So all it would take for Thief to stand on fairly level ground with the most damaging jobs at 99 is if their Dual Wield grew every eight levels, similar to the growth rate of Critical Attack Bonus. That doesn't sound unrealistic at all, which makes it all the more depressing that it's very unlikely to happen.

[Motenten]

Will also add one extra note to the factor of scaling damage with haste. When adding just one March (not double-march; am allowing the second to be scherzo or mambo or whatever is appropriate for a dangerous mob), war's DPS increases by 33% (Hasso) or 27% (Seigan), while thf's DPS increases by 12.5% with both SA/TA stacking, and up to 19% with only TA stacking (though the total DPS is lower than in the 12.5% increase's case).

Hasso war ends up about 42.5% ahead of best-case thf, while Seigan war ends up about 12.5% ahead. The hypothetical DW3+/war thf improves by about 20%, so the gap between fully offensive thf vs fully offensive war would still remain at about the 20% range.

So even for the comparisons where, under optimal conditions, thf can match war, as soon as a brd is added war pulls waaay ahead of thf. Thf gets too bogged down in JA timer limitations to be able to take full advantage of the extra haste (though part of that is the fault of the spreadsheet which can't easily deal with complex mixtures of stacked and held TP).

And of course as Insaniac points out, war pretty much always works at best-case or better (Retaliation), while thf usually works below best-case.

On the other hand, thf has faaar better raw survivability than war. Any time I'm not on thf, dnc or mnk, I always feel like I'm naked and have a massive target painted on my back (and front.. and head). War can manage with good support, but it's always painful to watch them try to survive anything even mildly difficult if they're not being constantly babysat.

I could certainly live with the trade-off in survivability vs offensive power if SE would make a more serious effort to work on the utility aspects.

[Arcon]

Stats, etc.

I'm gonna need to check the math behind this at some point. I have plenty of experience of THF not being able to get 25% of the WAR's damage, so much in fact that I'd call it the average. I have a very hard time accepting that THF can get even near the ballpark of WAR's overall numbers. I know that this still isn't fully accurate and doesn't account for many things that rate WAR further up (Retaliation bonus, Restraint bonus, JA recast bonus in between fights) and others that would rate THF down (SA/TA reliability), but it still seems way too close to be even remotely believeable. I consider both my WAR and my THF great, in fact I'd say my THF is even better geared overall. And just yesterday I killed Koios on THF (~3min55s) and on WAR (~1min20s). I didn't use SA/TA on THF at all, but SA/TA don't give as much bonus as some people make it out to be. Even perfectly SA/TAing I couldn't see me get under 3min on THF (probably not even under 3min30, as I said, it's very overrated), which would still be noticeably less than 50% of the WAR. And it was inside Abyssea, where THF gets a larger boost, outside my THF might as well be throwing pebbles compared to my WAR.

I'll need to find a decent outside NM to test it on, to get some actual numbers. Any suggestions? Right now, those numbers seem quite impossible to me.

[Motenten]

@Arcon:

Well, you don't really have to go outside to test. You can pick a mob inside Abyssea and just not get any atma or cruor buffs (well, maybe HP buff).

Am trying to think of one that would be decently difficult without risking debuffs that can randomly vary per fight (eg: paralyze, stun, absorb damage, plague, etc). And really, Koios is probably one of the easiest choices. Occasional stoneskin is the main issue if you have a tough time getting through it without buffs. Hmm. Maybe the lizard Sirrush in Mis Coast? Also may be a more manageable fight if you're doing without buffs.

A couple fights each, where you can compare average melee and weaponskill damage, plus average time per weaponskill, etc. Should be able to get at least a ballpark DPS. Would probably also suggest war fight at least once both with and without Retaliation.

[Arcon]

@Arcon:

Well, you don't really have to go outside to test. You can pick a mob inside Abyssea and just not get any atma or cruor buffs (well, maybe HP buff).

Am trying to think of one that would be decently difficult without risking debuffs that can randomly vary per fight (eg: paralyze, stun, absorb damage, plague, etc). And really, Koios is probably one of the easiest choices. Occasional stoneskin is the main issue if you have a tough time getting through it without buffs. Hmm. Maybe the lizard Sirrush in Mis Coast? Also may be a more manageable fight if you're doing without buffs.

A couple fights each, where you can compare average melee and weaponskill damage, plus average time per weaponskill, etc. Should be able to get at least a ballpark DPS. Would probably also suggest war fight at least once both with and without Retaliation.

Good ideas. For that matter, could leave out Restraint as well, to see if it approaches the predicted numbers with those things out of the balance. Without those it should be ~95 for WAR, ~52 for THF?

[SpankWustler]

Sirrush would be a really good choice. No note-worthy defensive strengths, and he's almost as dangerous as a sharpened bread crust. He has lots of HP in spite of these things, so you could see the effects of the Warrior's berserk going down for a bit.

[Corvin]

what do u guys think warrior be doing on the VWNMS the same things they do in abyssea?

[Alaik]

Will also add one extra note to the factor of scaling damage with haste. When adding just one March (not double-march; am allowing the second to be scherzo or mambo or whatever is appropriate for a dangerous mob), war's DPS increases by 33% (Hasso) or 27% (Seigan), while thf's DPS increases by 12.5% with both SA/TA stacking, and up to 19% with only TA stacking (though the total DPS is lower than in the 12.5% increase's case).

Hasso war ends up about 42.5% ahead of best-case thf, while Seigan war ends up about 12.5% ahead. The hypothetical DW3+/war thf improves by about 20%, so the gap between fully offensive thf vs fully offensive war would still remain at about the 20% range.

So even for the comparisons where, under optimal conditions, thf can match war, as soon as a brd is added war pulls waaay ahead of thf. Thf gets too bogged down in JA timer limitations to be able to take full advantage of the extra haste (though part of that is the fault of the spreadsheet which can't easily deal with complex mixtures of stacked and held TP).

And of course as Insaniac points out, war pretty much always works at best-case or better (Retaliation), while thf usually works below best-case.

On the other hand, thf has faaar better raw survivability than war. Any time I'm not on thf, dnc or mnk, I always feel like I'm naked and have a massive target painted on my back (and front.. and head). War can manage with good support, but it's always painful to watch them try to survive anything even mildly difficult if they're not being constantly babysat.

I could certainly live with the trade-off in survivability vs offensive power if SE would make a more serious effort to work on the utility aspects.

This sounds more correct. 42.5% ahead of a best case THF. I don't really care about the "survivability" unless I'm solo/duo with my wife's WHM. If I'm in an alliance on real stuff, we have a tank, if it's trash, she can heal through. Worse case scenario I pop seigan for a few third eye hits then swap back, and I didn't have to do that much.

[Laphine]

There are some issues with the war spreadsheet inside abyssea but doesn't change anything to discuss outside stuff.

I liked these new numbers too. The main reason my war was worse was probably the lack of Blood Rage. Another thing was 5 hit (which i was using) being worse than 6 hit outside. On the overall comparison i should have used an elvaan war with 8 str merits vs my mithra with 8 dex merits. I imagine elvaan war should pull ahead of hume by the same amount a mithra thf does.

My comparison also had no haste with the exception of hasso for war. This was another edge for thf like a said from the very start. Without haste, and using the new spreadsheets kinematics uploaded, i got war with 81 dps and thf with 72. With haste thf sits at 78.5 dps and war JUMPS to 101 dps. A very big difference. Part of this difference is, i imagine, what kinematics said: the spreadsheet can't deal with complex mixture of stacked and held tp.

Out of curiosity Kinematics, how do you control the uptime of the WAR's JAs? Manually at their bonuses? Seems like blood rage has a 100% uptime as it is. This could represent a quick fight, but it's certainly an edge for war currently. But i guess i would have to do the overall average like you showed before. When i get 113 dps on set 1 and 93 on set 2, is it BAR up vs BAR completely down? A problem i see is that Blood rage can only be up 50% of the zerk and aggressor do. Is it like that currently?

Here is what i'm understanding. Set 1 is Berserk and Aggressor up. Set 2 is no Berserk or Agressor up. If i use 50% of the bonus of blood rage on set 1 and 0% on set 2, does it sound reasonable? I got a 96 dps like that. Pretty close to your 94 average. Actually the ratio between the sets are swapped now (probably related to set1 being no berserk before). 180 should be set 1 and 120 set two. I would change blood rage bonus to 33% on set one then. I got 99 dps with these changes lol.

Actually it's all wrong! Thf had 85 twash on and war was with ukon 90! bad bad! lol War also had an issue with hasso only being up on set 1.

But i gotta say. This was still all thf/nin, and fighting such a tough mob outside, thf/war is an obvious choice for me. And the difference between thf/war and war/sam is very small.

New numbers:
THF/NIN (hume + using love torque for more crits)
no haste at all: 79.2 dps
hasted: 86.1 dps

THF/NIN (le pwners = mithra thf = capped crit rate)
no haste at all: 82.4 dps
hasted: 89.9 dps

THF/WAR (le pwners more = mithra thf)
no haste at all: 93.9 dps
hasted: 101.3 dps

WAR/SAM (hume)
no hasso: 73.4 dps
only hasso: 86.2 dps
hasso+haste: 108.6 dps

WAR/SAM (elvaan)
no hasso: 75.4 dps
only hasso: 87.8 dps
hasso+haste: 110.6 dps

[Karbuncle]

even on THF I 8/8'd STR merits :X Never would change that.

Anyway, on the Vacuum-Math Theorycraft: I'm skeptical, very very very skeptical, because it logically defies all experience i've ever had. I'd say I'm too used to Abyssea but even then I do outside Abyssea content with a DRK, and he usually curb-stomps me in damage as well (and the fugger subs THF), then again, he has Caladbolg, and I currently have no Relic or Empyrean... Plus Last Resort is pretty boss...

However if all of this is true, I'd like to see some real practical parses, despite popular belief, human error is normal, and I'd like to see some results where human error is factored, because it will play a role in final results every time, since none of us are robots.

Thanks in advanced :O

[Vortex]

Sheesh, THf already steals from mobs, now they get to "bully" them, who dosn't want a job that is a comepelte A-hole to mobs.

Next on the list "Push" : knocks the mob back and occasionaly takes thier lunch money while shouting profanity.

[Alaik]

Well of course, parses will never be taken seriously. The closest thing we'll get is what Kin just put up factoring in missed SAs. It's easy enough to keep your WAR JAs on cooldown, and the chance of overflow TP can be held true for both, etc.

It also gives a fairly accurate description. I erased every parse I had (I stopped playing awhile ago) but on tough stuff outside, even my near perfect geared THF would be outdone by a near perfect geared WAR by 40%~. As stated before, my SA miss rate was around 15% on average.

[Laphine]

i posted some new numbers back on the last page~

[Insaniac]

Decided to record einherjar because we had a lvl90 Ukon and a lvl90 twash. Unfortunately someone decided to mpk most of our DDs with some blizzaga IIIs. Anyway the only 2 DDs that didn't die were me on DRG and the 90 twash THF so this turned into 90Rhongo vs. 90Twash. Neither one of us had any outside buffs other than tect and shell (lazy whm). The mobs where triple bats ghosts and a corse boss so there was a copious amount of att down and a little paralyze. AnywHay. On to the results.


Damage Summary
Player Total Dmg Damage % Melee Dmg Range Dmg Abil. Dmg WSkill Dmg Spell Dmg Other Dmg
THF/NIN 58073 15.72 % 32015 0 0 26058 0 0
DRG/SAM 74064 20.05 % 33090 0 4366 36608 0 0
Wyvern 6437 1.74 % 3906 0 2531 0 0 0

So, with the wyvern included a lowly goon still beat THF by 27.8% with no haste other than hasso on old content mobs.

[Motenten]

Actually it's all wrong! Thf had 85 twash on and war was with ukon 90! bad bad!

.... doh! Only checked that empyrean weapon was in hand, forgot to check level.



Out of curiosity Kinematics, how do you control the uptime of the WAR's JAs?

From what you wrote in your post, it seems you expect the spreadsheet to give you overall averages. It doesn't. Each set is used to set up a single specific state (Berserk up, Agressor up, different gear, etc). It's impossible to pre-configure appropriate blend values for all possible JA combinations, so it's up to you to work out the math on that yourself (such as my B/A/R distributions).

You then set one of the sets to the state you want values for. The second set allows you to do direct comparisons, or simple blendings. For example, Blood Rage was active because I was checking the configuration with that +B+A. It's not active 100% of the time; I weighted that result as 10% of the total DPS.


On the overall comparison i should have used an elvaan war with 8 str merits vs my mithra with 8 dex merits.

That would not be a valid comparison, then.

[Motenten]

Had forgotten about Restraint til Arcon reminded me. Worked out calculations for it and added it to the war spreadsheet (new version uploaded). That gives war another ~6% boost in DPS on average (12%-13% DPS gain, up 50% of the time).

Top end values (since I don't feel like re-running the full average):

War/sam, all JAs, Hasso: 127.332 (111.983 without Blood Rage)
Mnk/war, all JAs: 112.657 (war is 13% ahead, or on par when Blood Rage is down); drops to 79.242 if /nin
Thf/nin, best case, lvl 90 Rudra: 82.234 (mnk is 37% ahead, war is 55% ahead with Blood Rage); /war is basically the same DPS

[noodles355]

What are we trying to figure out anyway now? That War is stronger than Thf for DD? Didn't we already know that?

[Laphine]

yeah, but ppl always say "thf is so weak lolz" and assume it as unchangeable truth. I think what we are trying to do is move away from old definitions and check the current real numbers. If by some miracle thf did do better than the champions, that's a complete change in paradigm. And actually, maybe we might have come close to that, considering thf/war on low haste and against such a hard target does very well comparativelly.


Thf/nin, best case, lvl 90 Rudra: 82.234 (mnk is 37% ahead, war is 55% ahead with Blood Rage); /war is basically the same DPS
Same dps as before or same dps as nin? if the latter, did you set berserk up? lol

[noodles355]

However as soon as you bring in difficult targets with no haste buffs (read a difficult or high leveled fight that isn't zerged) you often move into the realm of dangerous TP moves. So essentially we're descovered that the situations where thief would do well comparable to other heavier DDs are situations where you dont want many melees anyway.

[Laphine]

kinda lol. But Bukhis as parameter isn't much different than gods at lv 75. I never really (needed to) zerg gods. I imagine the middle tier vnms and new dyna nms should be around lv 100 as well. I don't think we need to zerg them.

Well might as well check weaker targets too~

Lv 97 with Dia and red curry as food. The max performance to be quick is the following.
THF/NIN
no haste: 139.7
haste: 152.9
THF/WAR
no haste: 166.1
haste: 181.1
WAR/SAM
no hasso: 148.9
just hasso: 172.2
just haste: 182
haste+hasso: 217

War is super valued by haste again. A reasonable "just haste" war (with seigan) is 19% better than THF/NIN with haste. If the war can go crazy with haste+hasso i see no reason why thf can't go crazy with thf/war. The difference is close to 20% on this case, but at least the war doesn't wipe the floor with the thf/nin lol.

[Ragni]

From what i read here...

You guys want to be the best DDs, the best tanks etc... You have already very good evasion for tanking, good melee capabilities and th!

The best make THF the best in everything! SE give them black magic/dark magic/white magic too! ^^

This is response to people who still complain, why his job can't out damage WAR or other top DDs - face it THF isnt heavy DD its TH whore lol with some nice tool for fun.

[Laphine]

You guys want to be the best DDs, the best tanks etc... You have already very good evasion for tanking, good melee capabilities and th!
You should have gotten the other way around. I think in almost every single page of rage we had, we said we didn't want to be the best, we just wanted the gap between the best and us decreased.

No one is complaning we can't out dd a war, a war exists for the sole reason of damage, of course it deserves to be the best. But TH cannot be used as an excuse anymore. Not when subbed TH is very much the same of the main TH. And not when a bunch of jobs is getting TH now.

[Smush]

http://s1099.photobucket.com/albums/g399/smushpics/

here some pics from T4 VWNMs of rudra strom and there is one fudo. There stacked ofc but easy to land SA and TA on thes things unstacked i got up to 1.5k.

im tryin to get ls mate to post the parses from that day but i know me and a ukon topped the parse and where really close togeather to be that close is way good enough for me in thf DD. So far only one i cant rape is havhava but no melee can really rape him he has somekinda phy dmg taken -% effect but i did do a 1.5k highest i seen was a 2k ukko on him.

[Alaik]

Ragni, that's because you can't read. ^^;

[Ragni]

Ofcourse i can read. You guys want to decrease gap between the best DD and thf? Seriously what gap? You can DD very well (good example Smush pics), have good evasion and th. Seriously you guys want to be DD like WAR or something lol. THF can do very good dmg. Maybe its time to learn how to play properly on this job instead rage on forums? ^^

[Smush]

Indeed thf can do very well on thes new nms.
I do think we need better hate management and support abilities tho.

also we get DW2 faster 8 lvls 5-7 i say from DW1 so we could end up with higher then 3 if the trend cont. im sure i read a lvl 88 thf had DW2 on alla before thats 5 lvls after DW1 ill try and find a link.
but if so 93 DW3 and 97 DW4 that could be the case and maybe they will let us merit it if we get DW4 /war will be crazy.

[Laphine]

THF falls behind with stacked haste, as shown by the numbers. THF has a huge variable to dd like no other job, and odds are we probably won't have 100% performance even if we wanted (hit every sa/ta). Finally, a thf without Rudra or Mercy access isn't really on the DD fight.

ohh, 88 with dw2? very interesting. I never really saw any specifics on this.

[Insaniac]

From what i read here...

You guys want to be the best DDs, the best tanks etc... You have already very good evasion for tanking, good melee capabilities and th!

The best make THF the best in everything! SE give them black magic/dark magic/white magic too! ^^

This is response to people who still complain, why his job can't out damage WAR or other top DDs - face it THF isnt heavy DD its TH whore lol with some nice tool for fun.
600+ posts saying the exact opposite... I just don't know sometimes....

[Smush]

THF falls behind with stacked haste, as shown by the numbers. THF has a huge variable to dd like no other job, and odds are we probably won't have 100% performance even if we wanted (hit every sa/ta). Finally, a thf without Rudra or Mercy access isn't really on the DD fight.

ohh, 88 with dw2? very interesting. I never really saw any specifics on this.

true when haste is a factor we fall behind but most NM are not full time melee unless zerg.
also if you dont have RS or MS mandlic stab is a great choice on high lvl nms ill post some pics when i can of it. and i think for the new nms you need emps on most jobs to see super high # i seen drakebane only max at 1.2 and avg less then 800 same with gekko i expect around that from RR on war with no blood rage.

and im sure i seen a lvl 88 thf test and they had DW2 ill have to find it wish i could test it myself ill have to find a lvl 88 person to sync too ill get on this

[Karbuncle]

You guys want to be the best DDs

No.


the best tanks

No.


You have already very good evasion for tanking

No.

Tanking something harder than Potato (read: Beyond Abyssea), Our Evasion might save us from a few Physical hits, But nothing beyond that, and a tank needs more than "evading physical hits".

Sure, You'll evade a few hits, but the second it uses something other than a physical attack? have fun eating dirt lol. Evasion is nice but it really doesn't hold water against real mobs. THF is not a good tank on anything outside of trash, Like it has been since level 75.

Our Evasion makes us good for nothing but sack pulls and trash mobs, and even on trash mobs a NIN Tanks better, having more shadows and the ability to sub /DNC without losing out on shadows/survivability.


good melee capabilities

Yes and no, Our Melee capabilities are mediocre at best, We shine brightest on fights where everyone stands around doing nothing, since our SA and TA is actually tolerated and in a way bolstered due to limited meleeing.

So in a way, While our DD isn't the best, We shine in hard fights were Melee is not an option. But this is more irrelevant to me, as I've moved beyond the idea of a true DD. I realize our DD isn't the best but i also realize DD is a hard role to fill and unless you're the best you're likely not getting invited, so THF filling a secondary role would help us a lot more.


and th!

While there is a miniscule difference, the difference between Sub-job TH (TH2/TH3(Taru-sash) and Main job TH6+ is nil visible to the point its benefits are largely undetermined. Our TH is best, But likely by 1%. not really enough to justify our place in a party.


The best make THF the best in everything! SE give them black magic/dark magic/white magic too! ^^

I can smell your sarcasm, but it doesn't make it any less silly you would suggest this. No one in this thread has ever asked for anything this unreasonable, or come close too.


This is response to people who still complain, why his job can't out damage WAR or other top DDs

No one wants that. We've never even asked for that. At least, i can say, I never wanted this.


Face it THF isnt heavy DD its TH whore lol with some nice tool for fun.

We know THF isn't a heavy DD, but we also know TH and mediocre support abilities no one utilizes due to their horrible limited uses and horrible recast timers does not a job make.

The only thing keeping us in parties is our ignorance of how TH works, and with the mist rising on that it looks like bad news for THF.

------------------------------------

So what do we want to take away from all of this? THFs here aren't asking to be the best DD, or the best Tank, we want a real reason to be in a party, Placebo Hunter is not a real reason.

If SE wants us to Control Enmity, Give us more than Collaborator. 2 JA on a shared timer is not enough to make THF desired for Enmity control, its a stupid gimmick like TH. We're asking for more power in the field they want us to have power in, Support and Enmity control.

That is not asking too much. You may be comfortable with THF being a lowly TH whore (and not a good one at that) and a sub-par DD only invited to parties due to a Job trait that kept the job hideously mediocre since level 15, But we are not outside of our boundaries when we ask for something more to the job.

Bully has potential, I'll save my response to that when i see how it works.

[Motenten]

Same dps as before or same dps as nin? if the latter, did you set berserk up? lol

/war's DPS was roughly the same as /nin's. And I *thought* I was factoring in Berserk, but double checking it, it seems I wasn't. So ignore that bit.

Also, since it's not really fair to just give top-end numbers on war, I got unlazy and redid them while including Restraint (50% uptime).


Hasso Seigan
BAR (10%) 120.167 99.675
BA (40%) 106.581 88.412
B (20%) 106.443 87.160
A (15%) 80.065 66.378
N (15%) 79.958 65.403

Total 99.941 82.521


And redoing thf/war (60% uptime for Berserk):


No SA/TA or Rudra's: 62.087
No SA, Solo TA, solo Evis: 64.904
Solo SA/TA, solo Evis: 69.271
Solo SA, TA Rudra: 81.325
Solo TA, SA Rudra: 81.907
SA & TA Rudra: 93.218
No SA (miss), TA Rudra: 76.397

So top end on thf should only be a little behind average war with Hasso. However missing stacked weaponskills, or just not being able to stack half the time, drops overall DPS quite a bit. Though even there, it should be roughly on par with a war that's forced to use Seigan.

On shorter fights (anything up to 3 minutes), war should be significantly ahead due to having JAs up all the time. Even for the values that consider the two DDs on par, war gets a significant additional advantage from using Retaliation, while thf loses DPS from the usual noted issues.


Overall, it seems that *in theory* thf is not in too bad a position, DD-wise, as long as fights last long enough. Parsed data, however, paints a far weaker picture. So I think it would be best to fully lay out how current mechanics are dragging performance down. Making suggestions to relieve thfs of some of those hobbles would probably be a better tack to take in terms of suggestions to SE (but given their response on things like Collaborator and Aura Steal, still not holding out too much hope).


Going /war is the most obvious damage boost, but that's a player choice, not a mechanic for SE to (directly) work on (aside from the fact that 2-handers that go /sam can choose between offense and defense on the fly, while other jobs have to pick one and stick with it for the duration).


Primary weakness of depending on SA/TA: Missing said attacks. Some have suggested adjusting the target arc or something similar. I'd probably suggest going the other direction, and make SA/TA like Feint, where it doesn't wear off until you successfully land the attack (or the 60 seconds duration runs out, whichever). It allows you to maintain a more constant DPS, rather than it falling off just because the mob changes position slightly. It's not a direct boost to DPS, it just pulls the damage values up closer to their true potential.

If SE feels like there's some need to at least have the basics mastered at earlier levels, add it as a job trait: Opportunity Strike (Sneak Attack and Trick Attack are maintained until an opportunity to use them can be found). Can make it like level 75-80 or so.

[Smush]

i think if we could SA just outside of mobs view i.e. side of mob like it was @ 1st i read then it would be fine. i wonder what that ability that complements SA and TA will be maybe it will help.

And you check how good /war would be with DW3 or 4?

[Laphine]

If sa/ta worked like feint, yummy!^^

Based on the original manifesto in other languages and camate's post, i have high hopes that it is going to be a new forced crit JA. A very nice boost to our table too, but hopes and dreams can be shattered lol.

[noodles355]

I really liked the idea about SA and TA always force criticaling from any position, but only getting the DEX and AGI bonuses from the correct position. Think that would be a pretty huge boost.
I also really liked making Steal take temp items, and on NMs taking r/e items and putting them in the drop pool.
Despoil giving a fixed debuff on a separate timer from steal, not linked to steal is also a great idea (as long as debuff and recast were close).
Accom/Collab having lowered recasts and separate timers, and thf having a means to dump that enmity on someone or altogether (hide fix) would also be awesome.
Aura steal having a lower timer and separate from steal would also be epic (but they'd have to nerf absorb rate).

Those are the kind of ideas that get thrown about the most for thf, excepting the first point, none of those are really DD related. Thfs aren't complaining about DD so much. Yeah it's lower than other DDs, but theoretically it's because we have our TH/debuffing/enmity management to fall back on too. Problem is those factors fail to deliver right now.

[Alaik]

I really liked the idea about SA and TA always force criticaling from any position, but only getting the DEX and AGI bonuses from the correct position. Think that would be a pretty huge boost.
I also really liked making Steal take temp items, and on NMs taking r/e items and putting them in the drop pool.
Despoil giving a fixed debuff on a separate timer from steal, not linked to steal is also a great idea (as long as debuff and recast were close).
Accom/Collab having lowered recasts and separate timers, and thf having a means to dump that enmity on someone or altogether (hide fix) would also be awesome.
Aura steal having a lower timer and separate from steal would also be epic (but they'd have to nerf absorb rate).

Those are the kind of ideas that get thrown about the most for thf, excepting the first point, none of those are really DD related. Thfs aren't complaining about DD so much. Yeah it's lower than other DDs, but theoretically it's because we have our TH/debuffing/enmity management to fall back on too. Problem is those factors fail to deliver right now.

Don't bother recapping, the fail troll (or idiot, either/or) will appear again and disregard how many times this has been said and make another retarded Ragni post. If they haven't read that this was being said before, they won't just because someone recapped it.

[Alaik]

Also Kin, out of curiousity, can you put a the above WAR's comparison against a BRD?

[Motenten]

A DD bard? Or when getting brd buffs?

[Alaik]

A DD BRD with BRD buffs. Thanks again for doing all this for us.

[Motenten]

Ok, that'll take some some work since I don't have a brd spreadsheet; would have to create a new one, though it could be somewhat easier since I can pull Evisceration from the thf spreadsheet. Still, won't be soon.

[Concerned4FFxi]

climactic flourish is bs, so is war crit hit which more than likely will be used with ws just like the new drk ability that nerfs tp gain for increased damage will be used with ws

[SpankWustler]

just like the new drk ability that nerfs tp gain for increased damage will be used with ws

This doesn't even exist yet. Scarlet Delirium is being implemented instead, I assume, because it was a stupid idea.

I guess you aren't concerned enough to actually read the Job Adjustments post?

Edit: Also, Climactic Flourish works the way it does because Dancer gets saddled with weapon skills like Rudra's Storm which are designed to be forced to critical though job abilities. Rudra's Storm also happens to be the only reason a Dancer would use Climactic Flourish.

Edit II: The Editing: Man, the more I read this tiny post the more it confuses me. The Warrior ability to force a critical hit doesn't exist yet, either.

[Alaik]

Ok, that'll take some some work since I don't have a brd spreadsheet; would have to create a new one, though it could be somewhat easier since I can pull Evisceration from the thf spreadsheet. Still, won't be soon.

I'm OK with that.

[Laphine]

you could make a close simulation of a brd with the thf's spreadsheet if you want Alaik. Change the skill and stats values, change/add some gear, disregard sa/ta variables, and you've got yourself very close to what a brd is. Only thing missing is melee downtime due song casting.

[Alaik]

I'm aware. However I'm not comfortable with the spreadsheet yet. I would be more likely just using a calc/mental math and writing it done if anything. But alas, I am scheduled to work 120 hours this week, so it's not getting done on my end.

[Babekeke]

I am scheduled to work 120 hours this week

Ouch! You might as well sleep there, and you still don't get 8 hours sleep if you collapse when you finish every night and start as soon as you wake up o.0

[Alaik]

Paramedic, I get paid to try and get 8 hours at least. However most stations I work during the day keep me running around til at night. (OK so I don't get paid for 8 hours, but more like 5 naps that take 8 hours combined through the shift)

Posting from my droid after going to the hospital, coincidentally.

[Byrth]

Arcon! Quick question~!

Could you have your parser separate procced from unprocced monsters in Dynamis? You could tell which color proc it is by the KIs received so far. I can't imagine it would be that different from pulling out TH levels. That way I have a large TH2 sample (a lot of DNC/NIN + WHM/THF runs) if anyone has a TH3 sample to compare it against.

[Arcon]

Arcon! Quick question~!

Could you have your parser separate procced from unprocced monsters in Dynamis? You could tell which color proc it is by the KIs received so far. I can't imagine it would be that different from pulling out TH levels. That way I have a large TH2 sample (a lot of DNC/NIN + WHM/THF runs) if anyone has a TH3 sample to compare it against.

I'm sure I could. But I have no idea what you just said. I only did Newdyna about two times, so not really sure how it works. Could you /PM me details on FFXIAH?

[litedragon]

i think only thing that thf is missing is widescan... what good is treasure hunter ability if u spend all ur time looking. people use thf for farming. drop rates sux as it is but and never know when nms are up. widescan ability for a farming job will create the ultimate thf.

[FrankReynolds]

i think only thing that thf is missing is widescan... what good is treasure hunter ability if u spend all ur time looking. people use thf for farming. drop rates sux as it is but and never know when nms are up. widescan ability for a farming job will create the ultimate thf.

go back under your bridge

[noodles355]

Wouldn't mind getting Widescan to be honest. Help with a few things, but not enough relies on it that it would be game breaking anymore.

[Insaniac]

go back under your bridge
I didn't know how to reply to that post lol. I knew it was a troll but I also actually wouldn't really mind getting widescan haha.

[Laphine]

truth be told, it surely would fit us to have widescan for treasure chests~

[FrankReynolds]

you guys gotta stop falling for this crap. devs read my 1 negative comment and your 3 positive and think "well they don't seem to like bully much... lets give them wide scan instead...".

[Camate]

As there have been a lot of concerns and comments cropping up about thief lately, here is some additional feedback from the development team.

Regarding the Efficacy of Aura Steal
When compared to Voracious Trunk, Osmosis, and Absorb-Attri, Aura Steal’s superiority really shines due to the fact that it is possible to elicit a dispel effect regardless of an enemy’s inherent resistances. Also, depending on how many merit points you’ve used to upgrade it, when you consider that you can reach a 100% rate of absorption, despite the recast timer being slightly long, the effects of Aura Steal are by no means weak.

While this is only one example, it might be possible to make Aura Steal its own ability and keep its recast timer shared with Steal. However, there is a high possibility that we will need to balance this by reducing the absorption rate as a trade-off, and I don’t think this would be very desirable.

We will be carefully looking into things for the revamps to the merit point effects, so we would like to take a good amount of time and hear all of your feedback.

Regarding Trick Attack and Decoy Shot
Decoy Shot, which is scheduled to be implemented in the upcoming version update, has been balanced more around the idea of controlling your own enmity. (We understand that the effects of Yoichinoyumi/Annihilator/Armageddon are similar, but since this is comparing an ability to a relic weapon, we think that’s an entirely separate discussion.)

Let’s take a look at the below comparison:

• Decoy Shot
Recast: 5 minutes
A set amount of enmity can be diverted to another player and any excess enmity will remain on the ranger.

• Trick Attack
Recast: 1 minute
All of the enmity generated at that time can be diverted to another player.

In regards to determining the stacking of the Treasure Hunter effect via TA WS, SA WS, and SATA WS
The reason why you cannot tell if the effect is increasing is due to the fact that it is difficult to make the log display the Treasure Hunter enhancement effect during a weapon skill.

If we try to make the increase display in the log during a weapon skill, the amount of work would be on par with multiple job adjustments, so we do not have any plans of making this particular adjustment. However, the fact that it is difficult to tell when the Treasure Hunter effect increases, means that we will be looking into other adjustments.

[Manque]

It's nice to have confirmation that TH can proc during a WS. That is, by the way, what I interpret the latter half of this to mean.

I don't think I would ever swap my merits out for more Aura Steal merits... I get by with 1 in it.
I guess that's my style choice, but can anyone make a case for dropping other merits to make aura steal a high absorption rate?

I guess it would be nice to have the timers separated for things like THFAF1 or stealing cells from qiqirn in Salvage. That's about the best thing I see in these notes... and, that's pretty bad imho.

[Karbuncle]

I thank you for a second Update Camate :)

That being said, With the RNG Ability, Even if its only 10% of the Enmity per shot, it was said it would last 3 minutes. a RNG Shooting that for 3 minutes will likely give their target many many many times more enmity than a Trick attack would in that time. (Assuming no WS' are involved)

This might not be because TA is bad, Its simply THF is laughably weak. In the interest of Making Trick Attack not terrible, are there in plans to boost the damage through those abilities?

Perhaps add an Attack multiplier to SA and TA? Since the problem with those on hard enemies is that your attack is so low the damage is not great. If you can add a 2.0 or 1.66 Mult. to SA/TA it could go a long way in improving those abilities.

Perhaps even look into making SA and TA like Feint too? Meaning, The effect stays on until requirements are met. Further example: You use SA and the mob turns, SA does not wear off if you hit it, it will only wear off when the SA is successful or 1minute has passed.

Could that be worked?

On the note of Aura Steal, I understand is uniquesness, But 5 minutes is a bit long. Realistically, How many fights last more than 10-15 minutes? not even voidwatch mobs take that long. being able to dispel a mob once a fight is not really as broken as the devs make it sound.

Could you at least ask them if they could introduce something to reduce Steal's recast timer... Maybe to a max of ~3 minutes? It truthfully wouldn't be a big improvement but it would help in a small way. I understand the idea of maintaining balance, But as it stands THF is a very undesirable job for anything outside of Treasure hunter, and even then, well.. I don't need to repeat why TH has ruined the job.

Either way, You talk of Splitting Steal/Aura Steal. If you could put Aura Steal on a 1min~2miin timer, and make it share recast with steal in exchange for a much lower "Absorb" rate, not a single THF here would object to that. No one uses that ability to really "Steal" the buff, Its more of a "Dispel" thing, the absorb is a bonus.

So yah, If you're talking about Making Aura Steal separate than steal with a much lower Delay, Have at it. .If you're saying split them but make them share timers and both be 5 minutes still? Then yah, Keep them the same, that would be stupid of us too want..

Thanks again for the second update, Even though its kinda... grim, in terms of where THF is going. very very grim. I can be a little upset at the direction THF is going....

----

Oh, Any more info on Bully? If its AOE, Single Target, THF only?

[Karbuncle]

Really i wish just once We'd get a Rep response that brings good news

I know its not your fault Camate :( Don't think I'm blaming you.

Edit: I mean, Does the Dev team just not see the only real endgame role THF Fill is Treasure Hunter whore and Sac-puller? How can they justify leaving this job so undesirable that their only logical use is making them go suicide on a bunch of mobs to make a pull eaiser?

Why are they so afraid of giving us something useful?

Can you present these questions to them too. You can leave out the anger.

[Washburn]

Even if aura steal processes on 100% of steal processes, steal process rate is still garbage, especially on NM's.

[Byrth]

PS. How does Treasure Hunter work?

[Karbuncle]

Now now Byrth, If they told us that, Their magical Life-raft of mediocrity that keeps THF Afloat in terms of semi-relevance would pop and all the THF's would drown in an ocean of useless.

Right next to SCH and DNC, Drowning and hoping SE throws them a life-jacket, but alas, We drown.

Bully was like throwing us a Life jacket made of Lead :O!

[Coldbrand]

Plus they're not adding anything worth stealing because then people might want to steal things. As they told us.

[Laphine]

i actually only do use aura steal for its buff steal aspect lol. Many jobs have way more reliable dispel than us, so i think i wouldn't want it to turn into a dispel only thing.

I still believe Aura steal is really limited because it is only able to dispel buffs we can steal. Our dispel list is much smaller then. Plus, we can only dispel if we can't steal something from the mob. This pretty much removes the best mobs to absorb buffs out of the equation (beastman).

I don't get the devs' proposition as well. Making aura steal its own JA while still making it share the recast with steal is essentially what we currently have right now. Well, not so much. We would be able to aura steal beastman.

[Karbuncle]

also since Despoil doesnt work on 99% of mobs, could you at least make it have a chance to inflict an Ailment even if nothing is stolen?

I mean a good chance, like 80% or higher? I mean, Unless they think a THF being able to inflict a minimum yield Slow 1 on a mob once every 5 minutes is far too broken because it ignores resistances. (Which i hope its not...)

Its bad enough this epitome of useless abilities shares timers with our one moderately useful steal ability (Aura Steal), But its made worse by the fact Despoil misses 60% of the time and most if no all endgame enemies have No despoil pool.

can't despoil in Salvage, Dynamis, Einherjar, Abyssea NMs, etc. Why give us an ability that only works on Normal non-event enemies...?

[Karbuncle]

i actually only do use aura steal for its buff steal aspect lol. Many jobs have way more reliable dispel than us, so i think i wouldn't want it to turn into a dispel only thing.


I use it to dispel something quickly, and if i manage to steal the bonus its just that, a bonus.

Also, We can dispel things we cant absorb. the Haste from Wamoura can be dispelled by us but we can not absorb it.

[Laphine]

Hmm, indeed. I wasn't remembering counter example when i wrote that.

Copy pasting this here because i think this is the most important issue with our "Steal" stuff right now.

Its bad enough this epitome of useless abilities shares timers with our one moderately useful steal ability (Aura Steal), But its made worse by the fact Despoil misses 60% of the time and most if no all endgame enemies have No despoil pool.

can't despoil in Salvage, Dynamis, Einherjar, Abyssea NMs, etc. Why give us an ability that only works on Normal non-event enemies...?

[Zirael]

As there have been a lot of concerns and comments cropping up about thief lately, here is some additional feedback from the development team.

Regarding the Efficacy of Aura Steal
When compared to Voracious Trunk, Osmosis, and Absorb-Attri, Aura Steal’s superiority really shines due to the fact that it is possible to elicit a dispel effect regardless of an enemy’s inherent resistances. Also, depending on how many merit points you’ve used to upgrade it, when you consider that you can reach a 100% rate of absorption, despite the recast timer being slightly long, the effects of Aura Steal are by no means weak.

While this is only one example, it might be possible to make Aura Steal its own ability and keep its recast timer shared with Steal. However, there is a high possibility that we will need to balance this by reducing the absorption rate as a trade-off, and I don’t think this would be very desirable.

We will be carefully looking into things for the revamps to the merit point effects, so we would like to take a good amount of time and hear all of your feedback.

Thank you for an update.
I assume you've read 64 pages of this thread and similar ones. Can I ask you how many Thieves have you seen talking about absorbing enemy attributes and using this trait as a viable battle strategy? I've seen none. There are Thieves that use this for fun on Jailer of Love Fluorescence to see a 999 Attack for once, but, as everyone repeats, it's used more for fun and nice screenshots. People who use Aura Steal (if you read carefully) mention dispelling effects at best. This ability is already broken and is not used as per developer's design, because that design was flawed, there is no need to nerf it any more.

In order to absorb something good:
- Steal (5min recast) must fail to obtain an item
- 1 to 5 merit points need to be spent for a 20-100% chance of absorbing an effect
- monster/NM can not be immune to Aura Steal (try stealing Blazing Eruca's Blaze Spikes, any Stoneskin effect, etc, there are surprisingly many examples)
- if lucky, one, randomly chosen of monster's effects will be dispelled or absorbed and will remain active on you for a minute or two (unless you make a trip to Sky and absorb Mother Globe's Shock Spikes, I give you that)
That's a lot of IFs and BUTs for THF for a chance to get something random, whilst, for comparison, anyone can use Elemental Seal + some dispelling spell for pretty much the same result. Hell, DRK will be able to Absorb-Arrb+Nether Void+Dark Seal (assuming fully merited) every 5min for almost guaranteed absorbtion of 2 effects and if Dark Seal is not merited, every 10min with Elemental Seal. Where's that Aura Steal's superiority you've talked about?

Lately you have been fixing many annoying things in this game that have been lurking around and taking away fun from people without any reason. You've fixed Kirin room teleport, made so that BLU set spells remain saved after changing jobs, you will be fixing Quicksand Caves doors, etc etc etc. After 5 years of begging PUPs were promised you will 'look into' Scanner being bugged (casting Silence on crabs and immune monsters) and Damage Gauge prioritizing Blindna over Cure when master is in red HP, etc.

When you have 60+ pages of Thieves repeating over and over again that Aura Steal, Steal, Despoil, Mug, Accomplice and Treasure Hunter III+ (and our damage output outside Abyssea) are broken and useless, could you at least stop and reconsider that maybe, just maybe you are wrong in your presumptions and your design has failed or there's something wrong with the spaghetti code? Many of us play Thief maybe even every time we log in into your game. You see THF from perspective of game code, excel spreadsheets, equations etc, we put your theory into practice in Voidwatch, Abyssea and any other new content. This is our feedback. And from our first hand experience, we tell you that many of the tools we were given to our disposal do not apply to the realities we currently play in. We give you feedback, alot of serious feedback, sometimes with good ideas and numbers behind them. We do not bother doing this because we want be top overpowered DDs etc (we'd go play WAR, SAM, MNK etc instead), but because what we have now is in many cases a bunch of fail. So we look forward to something useful and good and make reasonable (I think) proposals.

Be honest with yourselves and ask yourselves this question: "What current endgame content an ability like Despoil can be used to turn the tide of battle from looming defeat into victory?" What for did you add it, many of us keep wondering... What about Steal, Aura Steal, Mug, Accomplice, Ambush? When I use Conspirator on my party, I can not see any difference (accuracy wise), so I think to myself, why did I even bother macroing it in and why did you bother adding it? Maybe you haven't realized it yet, but there's something wrong here, hence we speak up.

(sorry for boring wall of text :()

[Economizer]

all the THF's would drown in an ocean of useless.

Right next to SCH and DNC, Drowning and hoping SE throws them a life-jacket, but alas, We drown.

It hasn't ceased to astound me that people consider SCH, DNC, or THF useless. Either my linkshell has the single best PR team for these jobs in it, or the worlds best players for these jobs...

[Atomic_Skull]

Can you present these questions to them too. You can leave out the anger.

I think this is a fairly accurate representation of how THFs are feeling right now.

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/4208/angrythf.png

[Karbuncle]

It hasn't ceased to astound me that people consider SCH, DNC, or THF useless. Either my linkshell has the single best PR team for these jobs in it, or the worlds best players for these jobs...

I included DNC and SCH because those are the jobs i see on here complaining the loudest outside of THF... What with SCH and its jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none playstyle, and DNC with its universally shared waltz timers, and if i left them out, someone would inevitably bring it up.

Should add SMN in there too, maybe RDM for good Measure.

Second, If you Think THF is not useless outside abyssea? Yah, You got Snake Oil Salesman in your group if they convinced you it wasn't. You yourself i know keep up with recent TH Testing, There really is no reason not to just bring someone of little consequence in your group as /THF (A BRD perhaps? or hell a BST with Dipper Yully is more damage and productive than a THF).

SCH and DNC, Again, i Just see them complain a lot, But honest to god I've never been in a situation where I've heard someone utter the phrase "We can't do this fight without a DNC" or "We cant do this without a SCH", same can be said for THF too, THF is not needed to win anything, They randomly and uncontrolably occasionally cause more items to drop, and even now theres better methods of doing such in most events (Procs), and the difference between TH2 and TH20 is very very minimal, to where you're better off going for killspeed and excluding a THF and bringing some job /THF.

Need to face the facts and realize THF brings absolutely nothing of use to an Alliance fight. Collab/Accomp are the closest things we have to uses and even those are constricted thanks to timers and hindered due to a bad Enmity system in general.

Our best marketable skills are Suicide and Loot-bringing, And the second one we dont even do much better than others can /THF.


Edit: Sorry if i come off stingy or irritated... I'm a bit upset :(

[Francisco]

I'm not a THF (or a PLD) - but what about a stance ability?

Basically every hit is a "trick attack" if you're behind another player... except without the boosts from Assassin... just regular damage a THF would output, with the enmity stuck on someone else.

Such an ability would be a boon to paladins, and bring back a bit of the THF + PLD dynamic.

If the THFs here like it, maybe Camate can pass this on to the dev team.

Example: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/MrBill82x/ffxinmfight.jpg

[Laphine]

It's a nice idea, but they pretty much just gave that to ranger lol. The trick is maybe this stance would be much stronger? sounds good to me^^

[Economizer]

Second, If you Think THF is not useless outside abyssea? Yah, You got Snake Oil Salesman in your group if they convinced you it wasn't.

The main Thief that has me convinced otherwise is pretty amazing to be honest. The guy is the freaking NM whisperer... I've seen him walk into a zone just passing by, and the rarest NM will walk up to him, and stab itself to death on his daggers, until it bursts open, revealing a perfectly wrapped drop item, and a tip.

A few months before the change to the HNM pop conditions we even killed Fafnir/Nidhogg a few times for some Black Belt items. Never got a Ridill for him, unfortunately, but keeping the hate off the Red Mage and White Mage and making sure it stayed on the Ninja while we lazily killed the thing was some of the most fun I've had - not counting waiting for it to spawn of course.


Edit: Sorry if i come off stingy or irritated... I'm a bit upset :(

Even the before-mentioned Thief has complained about some of the job changes. Thief has a lot of room to complain, although I think a lot of jobs have room to complain about various things, regardless of if others deem their job useful or not.

Personally, I hope that SE makes sure to boost Thief's enmity control abilities a bit, and encourages situations where Thieves close skillchains more. My Thief friend's main suggestion was to break timers from sharing as much as they do.

[Manque]

Now now Byrth, If they told us that, Their magical Life-raft of mediocrity that keeps THF Afloat in terms of semi-relevance would pop and all the THF's would drown in an ocean of useless.

Right next to SCH and DNC, Drowning and hoping SE throws them a life-jacket, but alas, We drown.

Bully was like throwing us a Life jacket made of Lead :O!

Actually, I'd love to just put it to them. Put the cards on the table! haha

Doubt they would ever say anything though.

[SpankWustler]

Stuff the Development Team Said

Thanks for keeping in touch, bros, but I don't think the issue is Thief's abilities compared to similar abilities. The issue is Thief's abilities compared to functional abilities that can serve an intended purpose. Functional abilities that serve an unintended purpose would be okay too, I guess.

Five minutes is an eternity to wait for an ability that dispels an effect, even if it has a chance to place that buff on the player. I can count on one hand the number of times that I have used Voracious Trunk or Osmosis to take a buff from an enemy, and this isn't because of their success rate. It's just not that useful an effect.

Trick Attack is insufficient to control enmity to a reasonable degree, and I suspect Decoy Shot will be as well. The primary purpose of Trick Attack is currently damage, and the primary purpose of Decoy Shot will be to reduce the enmity of the Ranger itself. Even combined with Accomplice and Collaborator, this sort of ability just isn't as effective as it's envisioned to be.

The additional information about Treasure Hunter is good to know.

[Yinnyth]

When compared to Voracious Trunk, Osmosis, and Absorb-Attri, Aura Steal’s superiority really shines due to the fact that it is possible to elicit a dispel effect regardless of an enemy’s inherent resistances.
If the enemy is highly resistant to buff absorbtion, blu has dispel options, and if absorb-attri follows the pattern of other DRK magic, it would be really unfair for thf to complain about because it'll likely suck in its own right.

Also, depending on how many merit points you’ve used to upgrade it, when you consider that you can reach a 100% rate of absorption, despite the recast timer being slightly long, the effects of Aura Steal are by no means weak.
If the steal succeeds. The steal can always miss (yes, I've had cases of stealing nothing off yags who had just used parry in Dynamis, so it's not just that some effects are immune to being stolen). As such, it's my opinion that aura steal is largely worthless anyways, and not something worth focusing on for thf. There are several jobs that are good at removing status effects, I don't think thf needs to be one of them.

But I DO think the new rng thing is pretty bogus. Not that rng doesn't deserve some love of their own, but a trick attack substitute that can be used from outside an enemy's AoE? Yeah, that's stripping thf of one of its last remaining bastions of usefulness, but at least now there will be another job that will feel the frustration of fidgeting tanks. Then again, trick attack wears off if the tank moves and TA fails. The new RNG ability stays on even if the tank moves for one shot.

[Nebo]

As there have been a lot of concerns and comments cropping up about thief lately, here is some additional feedback from the development team.

Regarding the Efficacy of Aura Steal
When compared to Voracious Trunk, Osmosis, and Absorb-Attri, Aura Steal’s superiority really shines due to the fact that it is possible to elicit a dispel effect regardless of an enemy’s inherent resistances. Also, depending on how many merit points you’ve used to upgrade it, when you consider that you can reach a 100% rate of absorption, despite the recast timer being slightly long, the effects of Aura Steal are by no means weak.

This is simply not true. There is nothing superior about Aurasteal. Aurasteal, as an ability, is SEVERELY underpowered. This is just further proof that no one on the developement team that had any hand in designing this ability has ever played THF and tried to use it in all the various situations where it is functionally useless.

Most of the enhancement effects you would like to use it on....you can't (Turul Shock Spikes...etc). Most of the things that are usually stolen with Aurasteal (Blaze spikes, Protect)...are useless to a THF. ANd we usuelly get those when we are TRYING to steal something else (like Beast coins or Dynamis Currency)

Aurasteal most certainly is not worth 5 merits. Most career THFs will put one merit into it just to have a utility Dispel...not because the ability to steal enhancement effects once every 5 minutes is even remotely close to being useful....

...only being able to use this ability once every 5 minutes IS NOT USEFUL! I don't care what you do with steal and despoil...those two are even more useless than Aurasteal. For some reason you saw fit to mash these three useless abilities together and restrict them further still by making them share a recast timer.


While this is only one example, it might be possible to make Aura Steal its own ability and keep its recast timer shared with Steal. However, there is a high possibility that we will need to balance this by reducing the absorption rate as a trade-off, and I don’t think this would be very desirable.

No. Just no. Aurasteal is not as strong as you think it is. How many times do you need to be told this? A 5 minute dispel that is tied to the success rate of Steal is useless.


We will be carefully looking into things for the revamps to the merit point effects, so we would like to take a good amount of time and hear all of your feedback.

Why? We keep repeating ourselves and you consistantly don't listen.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

See? It's still not sinking in. Neither Steal, nor Aurasteal, nor Despoil are worth their OWN 5 minute timers, let alone having all three tied to the same needlessly long 5 minute recast timer. The fact that you are considering NERFING Aurasteal for the prospect of seperation while STILL having it share a recast timer with Steal? Are you serious? lol. This is absurd.

What....The F*CK....DOES AURASTEAL HAVE TO DO WITH STEALING ITEMS!?


Let’s take a look at the below comparison:

• Decoy Shot
Recast: 5 minutes
A set amount of enmity can be diverted to another player and any excess enmity will remain on the ranger.

• Trick Attack
Recast: 1 minute
All of the enmity generated at that time can be diverted to another player.

As others have said, Decoy shot is set to last 3 minutes and Trick Attack is dependant on the DAMAGE dealing capabilities you are so against giving us. IF you can't see that decoy shot is going to be more powerful for the purpose of enmity transfer, there is NO hope for THF lol.


In regards to determining the stacking of the Treasure Hunter effect via TA WS, SA WS, and SATA WS
The reason why you cannot tell if the effect is increasing is due to the fact that it is difficult to make the log display the Treasure Hunter enhancement effect during a weapon skill.

If we try to make the increase display in the log during a weapon skill, the amount of work would be on par with multiple job adjustments, so we do not have any plans of making this particular adjustment. However, the fact that it is difficult to tell when the Treasure Hunter effect increases, means that we will be looking into other adjustments.

This really doesn't mean anything when Treasure Hunter beyond Treasure Hunter II doesn't really seem to do much of anything.

[Vold]

The main Thief that has me convinced otherwise is pretty amazing to be honest. The guy is the freaking NM whisperer... I've seen him walk into a zone just passing by, and the rarest NM will walk up to him, and stab itself to death on his daggers, until it bursts open, revealing a perfectly wrapped drop item, and a tip. That makes him pretty much me then. It is why I don't know what to make of my successful farming with my THF right now... I don't know if it's my luck factor or stuff is working as intended. I should run around as /thf for a bit and see what I come up with. If stuff is still dropping left and right then I can safely assume drop rates were bumped up...I think..

[Alhanelem]

While this is only one example, it might be possible to make Aura Steal its own ability and keep its recast timer shared with Steal. However, there is a high possibility that we will need to balance this by reducing the absorption rate as a trade-off, and I don’t think this would be very desirable.I do not see why a "trade off" would be needed here. Making these seperate abilities is a very minor enhancement- Considering players feel an improvement is needed, I don't think a change like this would necessitate a decrease in the effectiveness of the ability, which would negate the improvement.

Nebo: What Camate is trying to point out, which you might be missing, is that Aura Steal can work even when all other methods of dispelling effects would fail. The Devs apparently feel that this advantage is worthy of a long recast time. That being said, he does make it sound as if Aura Steal is 100% effective, when it's really not, because, as you said, it's tied to the success (or not) of Steal.

I do think making it its own ability with a shared recast is fine, because that would eliminate the faliure rate. Because of how vehemently you spoke out against this, I ask you: how many (primarily non-normal) monsters could you think of needing to dispel that can also be stolen from? Usually, I would think you'd only want one effect or the other. So what's the problem with a shared recast?

[Byrth]

Whatever... you whiners can steal MG's Shock Spikes and have Shock Spikes for 3 hours at the cost of one measily 5 minute JA. It'd be totally broken if you could steal those shock spikes AND fail to steal items from any of the monsters in Sky within the same 5 minute window.

[Vold]

Thf stuffsBut see, if the devs are thinking about balance then they should consider starting by actually making steal and the stuff that revolves around it worth it's programming space. Why, for example, does the programming tend to follow the 'challenging encounter' ideal where each job does whatever for said encounter to make it useful, yet most of them have like nothing whatsoever for a THF to steal? Was it so terribly bad to throw a bone and have the incredibly crappy steal rate keep balance in check?

Look at Bladewhatshisface. Dude was a perfect solution. It required a THF to steal the Bucc knife to get the killing blow. And you had to resteal more often than not when there's a quest right there to motivate you to throw away the bucc knife for the other one. Why not have more of those around? Make steal more useful in the end game setting, something more than a beastcoin producer. For the love of game design, make these things useful, and stop worrying so much about balance. Toss toys at mobs for us to steal. It doesn't have to be kraken clubs. It just needs to be something worth the effort that may take many kills to succeed. Like a new THF earring. Or neck. Or ring. Or whatever. It doesn't need to be something so great it will disrupt the balance of the force. And even if it is something THAT great, why not? Why not make THFs obtain some of their best gear via steal? It makes 110% sense.

If after wards you see stuff that you don't like and I'm sure you have all those fancy gadgets to know things one way or another, you can swing the nerf bat at it.

In regards to aura steal and steal: Why must we have three trade offs for a lone aura steal JA? Shared timer, can't steal both items and buffs, AND absorb rate less than 100%? 3 for 1 is a pretty high number, but I guess it sounds about right looking at 3 for 1 for seal exchange...

[Economizer]

Trick Attack is insufficient to control enmity to a reasonable degree

What if Trick Attack stacked somewhere between 10~25% of a Thief's enmity onto the party member if a Thief was to stack it with a weapon skill, or if that's not enough for SE, as part of a skillchain?

[Karbuncle]

What if Trick Attack stacked somewhere between 10~25% of a Thief's enmity onto the party member if a Thief was to stack it with a weapon skill, or if that's not enough for SE, as part of a skillchain?

Someone mentioned this in another thread, but i would feel more comfortable if this was on a Piece of Equipment. If it was permanent it would be a nerf to low man THFs.

For instance, When i do low man stuff, rather it be something small like ZNM (Ob), or something like Abyssea, I use Trick Attack on my Duo mage partner to upgrade TH, because i know the enmity from it is laughable and minimal. If it transfered my Enmity, it would almost erase that factor.

Then again you could simply Collaborator right after. Still seems a bit dangerous. a piece of Armor like....

Assassin's Band(R)(EX)
(Ring) All Races
AGI+5 Augments "Trick Attack"
Lv.85 THF

*Augment's Trick Attack - Transfers 20% of THFs Enmity to target when using Trick Attack.

---

This not only makes it semi-useful for TA macro, But also wont bring about unintentional nerfs from something like that being permanent or a job trait.

[Yinnyth]

Or a JA that shares a timer with TA. Has the exact same effect as TA, plus it sheds a set % of the thief's hate onto the recipient.

[Karbuncle]

I think a ring with an added effect would require much less development time, and be a bit less redundant :X

I was going for the short and simple route >.O

[Yinnyth]

Players making things simple for developers?! That's almost as preposterous as socks with sandals!

I honestly have no idea what is simple for them and what is complicated, so you may be right. But I know I would have an easier time making a macro for a seperate JA than I would have making 2 macros for TA with just 1 piece of equipment changed. Plus, I'd save an inventory slot. Plus, it would be less discriminatory towards players who don't use windower macros.

[Karbuncle]

Mayhaps, Its either convenience for the player or the devs in that case.

Personally, I'd be happy with them giving SA and TA an attack multiplier like some WS get. 1.5, 1.66, 2.0, Something that makes SA and TA more powerful of a tool.

Maybe a JA That increase the Damage from SA and TA? Could even be a stance... I.E

StanceTHF
Lowers Critical hit Rate, But increases Attack and Damage from SA and TA
Lowers Critical hit rate by 10%, Increases Attack by 10% and SA/TA DMG by 15% each.
*Now you may think the trade off is wierd, But this stance would be really useful in tough content like Voidwatch, where the THF is mostly only using SA and TA then moving out of range.

As a secondary stance

StanceTHF2
Lowers Defense, and damage from SA and TA, but increases Accuracy, Attack, and Critical hit rate.
*Lowers DEF by 10%, Lowers SA/TA damage by 15%
*Increases Accuracy, Attack, and critical hit rate by 10% each.
Now, This stance would be useful in non-tanking, but able to fight situations, Especially high haste situations where SA and TA can be detrimental. It would also help THFs who Low man a lot, since they cant normally do SA and TA often.

[Kari]

Aura Steal is garbage.
Devs need to stop thinking it's amazing.
It has it's uses every now and then, like lolMotherGlobe...
Usually when I Aura Steal an effect from an NM, they recast it soon afterward.
Usually multiple times before I can Steal again.

And as it's been brought up before, SE, we don't really use THF as this amazing enmity tool that you guys seem to think it is.
I also find Trick Attack to be way too unnoticeable as a method of enmity transferring.
In Voidwatch [at least Tier 4s], attempting to have your tank move away from the wall, so you can get behind them, so you can do one Trick Attack and possibly WS with it...
Especially when you're doing this with PUGs, and half of them being JP, it's too much of an annoyance, with a chance of my face getting ripped off from an AoE as well. Even after pulling it off, nobody would notice any significant change in enmity.

Trick Attack sucks. Collab/Accomplice can only be used inside your own party, with high cooldowns and situational use.
If you want to make THF an enmity controller, give them better tools to do such.
But, regardless, a lot of us never use them. =P

[Economizer]

Someone mentioned this in another thread, but i would feel more comfortable if this was on a Piece of Equipment. If it was permanent it would be a nerf to low man THFs.

You mean how Tranquil Heart nerfed Red Mage tanking, particularly in duo situations? Eat your low man nerfs like the Red Mages do! j/k :p


a piece of Armor like....

Back on topic here, either a piece of gear or armor would be the best way to implement this. The gear would probably be easier for SE to rationalize probably, and easier to program in.

While they are at it, maybe they'll add some sort of Synergy/Magian Trials for the Thief's Dagger. I cry a little inside every time I see a Thief forced to use such a weak dagger for Treasure Hunter, but I know they can't just throw some TH on another dagger since people would just carry both...

[Karbuncle]

God, That should be its own Thread.

Upgrade Thief's Knife through Synergy please. Im sick of it being weak :(, I Don't have to keep it on for longer stuff but for Large mass Farming like Dynamis or Limbus, I need to keep it on for the Added Placebo.

Doesnt need nothing fancy, Just a DMG Boost, Maybe some fluff stats (Acc, atk, Delay:-) etc.

In fact, I am going to make a thread. BRB

[Economizer]

Doesnt need nothing fancy, Just a DMG Boost, Maybe some fluff stats (Acc, atk, Delay:-) etc.

Triple attack rate up or even occ. attk. x times would be nice, since it is usually offhand, or more advanced efforts to upgrade it. If it can be synergized, it should be upgradable somehow. And of course, make sure the thing can be sent to a mule if you ever want to farm another.

[Karbuncle]

Triple attack rate up or even occ. attk. x times would be nice, since it is usually offhand, or more advanced efforts to upgrade it. If it can be synergized, it should be upgradable somehow. And of course, make sure the thing can be sent to a mule if you ever want to farm another.

Turning it into an Occ.Atk.2-3x weapon wouldn't be a bad idea, but i feel SE would think that it'd take away/ruin that Magian trial path, and probably wouldnt do it :(

[Economizer]

Just make a synergy recipe that merges the two. :p

Although that would probably end up with Thieves being able to make two Occ. Attk. X weapons, which kinda kills the rare tag on that... although why anyone would want to mainhand one of these when you have Dual Wield is beyond me.

In the end, upping triple attack rate is probably the best bet.

[Yinnyth]

Thief's knife has it's own purpose. I have macros to equip it on my offhand, then other macros to put one of various other things on my offhand depending on the circumstances. True, it's annoying that it eats up my TP to do that, but it's pretty much my job when I'm a thief. Find shiny, get out of the way.

[Karbuncle]

Thief's knife has it's own purpose. I have macros to equip it on my offhand, then other macros to put one of various other things on my offhand depending on the circumstances. True, it's annoying that it eats up my TP to do that, but it's pretty much my job when I'm a thief. Find shiny, get out of the way.

I have a TH Macro as well to equip THF knife in offhand and re-quip a good one after the initial hit for harder NMs, but in events like Dynamis and Such its not an option as the TP given up so often is unreasonable.

If the item is going to be forced in our slot to be effective, we should not have to be gimp in using it in my eyes.

I feel the request is reasonable :)

[Economizer]

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to be an effective mid-tier damage dealer while being able to stack TH on a mob. There will still be better knives for Thieves that want to maximize damage over all else, but the Thief's Knife should at least be decent.

[Phen]

Im sure everyone else hates us by now with the amount of bitching we are doing, but its one thing to for us to say its clearly not overpowered- why dont we ask the other jobs what they think? Direct your friends here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13522-SURVEY-Anyone-but-thieves-please-give-some-feedback-on-Thief?p=179766#post179766

[Alhanelem]

THF's enmity control capabilities would be great if anyone even thought about controlling enmity anymore. it's a futile effort to try to do that right now.

[FrankReynolds]

Regarding the Efficacy of Aura Steal
When compared to Voracious Trunk, Osmosis, and Absorb-Attri, Aura Steal’s superiority really shines due to the fact that it is possible to elicit a dispel effect regardless of an enemy’s inherent resistances. Also, depending on how many merit points you’ve used to upgrade it, when you consider that you can reach a 100% rate of absorption, despite the recast timer being slightly long, the effects of Aura Steal are by no means weak.

No, it doesn't shine. in fact, if it was a BLU spell, I suspect that BLUs would never set it.



While this is only one example, it might be possible to make Aura Steal its own ability and keep its recast timer shared with Steal. However, there is a high possibility that we will need to balance this by reducing the absorption rate as a trade-off, and I don’t think this would be very desirable.

Judging by the tone of this thread, I doubt people would miss either abilities much if you did away with them entirely. It sounds like any reworking of them would be too hard for the Developers to get right. Please consider removing them and increasing damage output from daggers instead. It sounds like you guys can't figure out how to make them work right anyways.


We will be carefully looking into things for the revamps to the merit point effects, so we would like to take a good amount of time and hear all of your feedback.

Is that Swahili for "we are going to see how long we can ignore your requests"?



Regarding Trick Attack and Decoy Shot

• Decoy Shot
Recast: 5 minutes
A set amount of enmity can be diverted to another player and any excess enmity will remain on the ranger.

• Trick Attack
Recast: 1 minute
All of the enmity generated at that time can be diverted to another player.

The other player usually has capped enmity already. There is no benefit other than damage for the THF, but the RNG gets to shed hate. FAIL.



In regards to determining the stacking of the Treasure Hunter effect via TA WS, SA WS, and SATA WS.......

Nobody really cares about that. We already figured out that it doesn't matter much if it procs or not.




No. Just no. Aurasteal is not as strong as you think it is. How many times do you need to be told this? A 5 minute dispel that is tied to the success rate of Steal is useless.

Why? We keep repeating ourselves and you consistently don't listen.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

Aurasteal is NOT worth a 5 minute recast timer or a shared timer with Steal and Despoil.

This really doesn't mean anything when Treasure Hunter beyond Treasure Hunter II doesn't really seem to do much of anything.

I couldn't have said it better. They are not listening.

[Economizer]

Im sure everyone else hates us by now with the amount of

Have you ever visited the Scholar subforums? I think if anyone has the most posts it would be them, even with Karbuncle posting in here so much. :p

[Insaniac]

Camate - I don't know if you ever meet personally with the Devs but if you do... could you kindly knock their teeth out with a claw hammer?

I ran 5/5 AS for an extremely long time. It is not and I repeat IT IS NOT 100% absorb at 5/5 merits. It's a much higher rate than 1/5 but I know for a fact that it's not 100%. The dispel isn't even 100% at 5/5. From my experience in extended fights like JoL or cerberus where there actually was something for us to dispel the first 5/5 aura steal was very accurate while still not 100%. Beyond that first AS though mobs seem to build a resistance to the effect.

Cerberus for example built this resistance extremely fast. The first AS was 80-90% accurate the second was no more than 25% and beyond that it was pretty much impossible to land. And I'm not just talking about the absorb I'm talking about the entire dispel effect in general. Factor in that the effect we are stealing is blaze spikes (useless), the effect we dispel is reapplied almost immediately, our next chance to dispel comes in 5 minutes and has little to no chance of working and you are left with complete and utter uselessness. What other mob in the game are you talking about that some other job cant dispel reliably on a 20 second timer? Are you talking about darkness and light resistances? If dispel has any effect on the outcome of a fight you bring a job that can dispel that specific monster.

On JoL and ovni ---> the only NMs where aura steal makes any difference at all <--- the first 2 absorbs were reasonably high. Maybe 80% but beyond that the rate gets lower and lower. By the 3rd AS the absorb rate drops significantly and if you make it to a 4th even the dispel starts being resisted and this is a mob with no natural resistance to any other dispel in the game.

Even in old school melee burns 5/5 AS used to fail on a regular basis against Mamool Jas warm-up buff. And no not just the absorb aspect, the dispel too. When did you ever see finale or dispel resisted on a mamool?

This ability has been nerfed from EVERY direction possible. Why is useful synonymous with overpowered when it comes to THF? A 3 minute unlinked timer would make almost everyone happy. JUST DO FREAKING DO IT! And don't mess with absorb rates. It's not going to hurt anyone. In other words my message to the Dev team is plain and simple. "YOU ARE BEING STUPID AND YOU ARE WRONG!!" Maybe this seems like an arrogant thing to say to a group of professional game designers but I know for a fact that the reply they sent you here with is just incorrect.

Maybe this stuff comes across as "QQQQ I want my job to be the best" but FFS 95% of the posts made by THFs on these forums are angry or disappointed. I understand that the Devs have to take anything we say with a grain of salt but they are completely ignoring everything we say. It makes them seem arrogant and it makes me hate them.

[Insaniac]

I just want to reiterate and get this point across so it can be taken to the dev team.

Not a single response to their ideas about aurasteal is positive. No one agrees with or understands their reasoning.

This is important. Every decision SE makes has white knights that show up and defend them. Except this one. Doesn't that say something?

[noodles355]

Think I speak for most when I say I would hapilly accept a greatly nerfed/reduced absorb rate from aura steal if it meant a shorter recast and separate timer. Absorbing sometimes is nice, and we understand how powerful this ability can potentially be, but we all use it much more for the dispel than for the absorb.

Dropping it to a 1 minute timer, on a non-merited ability with a bas of 0% absorb chance and each merit giving like 2% or 5% chance to absorb would be great. Max you could achieve is 10% or 25% absorb rate if you merited it to 5/5, but you would have to sacrifice other merits like Assassin's Charge or Feint to do so. That would keep it balanced.

[Economizer]

OK, to be clear, I'm staying out of the discussion about Aura Steal for now, since the discussion is pretty heated.

I believe this is the Japanese thread for Thief. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11498-%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%96%E8%AA%BF%E6%95%B4%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BB%E3%83%97%E3%83%88-%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E3%83%95%E7%B7%A8)

Now, the best way to get a feel for where the other side of the discussion is going would be to get someone who can read Japanese to read that thread and give an impression of thoughts. Considering the shear amount of specialized terms used to talk about Thief, like Treasure Hunter, SATA, and so on, it is hard enough to get a feel for what the general opinion is from our fellow players while reading machine translations, so I can't actually give even a slightly accurate guess for what the opinion is there.

I think the moral of the story here is that I need to learn Japanese the next time I'm learning another language...

[Raksha]

So what are these awesome buffs that can be dispelled anyway?

Can you Aurasteal AV's bracelets or something?

[Yinnyth]

I have a TH Macro as well to equip THF knife in offhand and re-quip a good one after the initial hit for harder NMs, but in events like Dynamis and Such its not an option as the TP given up so often is unreasonable.

If the item is going to be forced in our slot to be effective, we should not have to be gimp in using it in my eyes.

I feel the request is reasonable :)

That is quite true. There are situations in which switching to thief's knife, then switching away are quite impractical. For dynamis, I consider whoever is playing thf for my LS (usually Heri or me) to be the lowest of DDs, and if more than 3 show up, the thf gets kicked out of the party with the bard (usually me) in it. That is a somewhat depressing scenario. It would be nice if thf got pushed back up to nearly the same level as other DDs seing as how Heri has mandau and twash(both 90), and I have twash(90).

[Karbuncle]

I think the best buff a THF Can steal is likely the Haste from Wivre's, or E-peen DMG Shots via Boost by Hippo's or UFOs.

We cannot steal Wamoura's Haste last i checked, but that was a long time ago. We can dispel it, but not take it.

[Longshot]

I don't post much but here's my 2 cents:


Aura steall:

Can't say how many times I've stolen something like ice spikes only to have the mob immediately cast it again. Also as already stated it doesn't have a high accuracy and most of the stuff you really want to dispel cannot be.

Is it fun to try and absorb a buff now and then? Sure. Is Aura steal useful? Once in a while it saves your butt, but most time its doesn't make much of a difference in a fight.

Do I care if they separate steal and aura steal timers or lower recast? No.

If they are not going to put anything worth stealing into the game, maybe they could get rid of the steal ability altogether and just make it aura steal for those THF that do seriously use it. It seems silly to have a job called "Thief" with an ability called "Steal" and nothing worth stealing anyway.


Accomplice/Collaborator:

Neither of these are very helpful in a real party situation after most of the party hits the enmity cap. At level 95, that will not take long at all (it doesn't now). You might buy a party member a few seconds with Accomplice but not much else. Above all, I don't want anybody's enmity. I'm not trying to tank, I want to make use of SA and TA etc.


I am interested to see how effective Bully is going to be.


I would like Rudra's Storm beefed up a bit. If not stacked with SA or TA or Climactic Flourish, the damage it deals feels very low for an empyrean weapon and is very inconsistent.


To Camate, this thread seems pretty heated right now while some people express their frustrations and disappointments about the direction that THF seems to be headed, but do we have any offensive abilities or traits to look forward to?

[Monchat]

Finale and Dispel have like 10seconds recast and almost never resist, and even if they do you can recast 10 seconds later. Very few mobs fully resist. Aura steal has a 5 minute recast, a high but not 100% dispel effect, and a high chance of missing. come on. This ability is USELESS. end of the story. If i want to dispel a mob I'll be 100x more efficient subbing RDM, as dispel is rarely resisted.

What would fix it:
-1minute recast, separate ability, 100% dispel, absorb rate not 100% or...
-30s recast, not 100% dispel.

Nobody cares about the absord effect. Nothing is worth abosorbing. When it came out people were saying its amazing to absorb a warcry from dyna mob and have attack at 999 for 15 seconds... no its not awsome lol. It's useless. The only reason I put one merit in it is to dispel the spikes frome the soulflayer NM from salvage because rdm couldn't and I didn't bring BRD.

While we are at it:

- Mug is useless. remove it from our job abilities.
-Steal is useless. reduce the recast time to 1 minute, or remove it. Nothing is worth stealing. Nobody cares. Look at Neo dynamis and how useless steal is. Omg, the single coin I manage to steal during the 2h is so awsome. And I only managed to proc TWO ability mobs since May with steal, doing dynamis almost daily. lol.
- Despoil is useless. See above.
- Hide is almost useless: Either leave its effect and reduce the recast to 1 minute, OR leave it a 5 mn but make it 100% and not just one specific mob families/remove the no enimity rule on NMs and unhidable mobs.

Once you get rid of those useless abilities, give us real hate transfer tools and I might play THF again, I like the stance ability from above, and the reverse collaborator.

Stop giving our defining ability ( Treasure hunter) to other jobs, and make its effect more noticable.

[Insaniac]

I would like Rudra's Storm beefed up a bit. If not stacked with SA or TA or Climactic Flourish, the damage it deals feels very low for an empyrean weapon and is very inconsistent.The catch with single hit dagger WSs is that they can't be made very powerful unstacked because they would be extremely overpowered when stacked with SATA. The reason DE and Evisc can do reasonable damage unstacked is because when you stack them with SA and TA only the first hit of the WS receives the base damage increase and auto crit and they receive a far lower damage increase. Mercy stroke and Mandalic stab both suffer from the same limitations. The only option for RS would be to make it a multi hit WS and lower it's fTP to ~1.0 depending on how many hits there wer ein the WS which would have it's ups and downs outside of abyssea. For instance on HNM level mobs it's spike damage would probably be lower than SB but in events like WoE or einherjar it would be more realistic to full time the WS even when your timers were down to keep your aftermath up. Inside abyssea the WS would be far worse off than it is now.

[Zirael]

It has been said by numerous people already (directly and indirectly), but I'd like to say it in simple words as well to the Developers:
You are wrong in your judgement.
You are unfair in your judgement.

Your arguments brought up to this conversation were weak and misinformed at best. We have told you how reality looks like. If a player came in here saying what you have sad, I would ask him "Do you have THF leveled? Do you even play THF at all? Have you ever taken THF75/THF90 to any endgame content and tried doing anything meaningful beyond Treasure Hunter --> afk?" It really feels like what the Developers have said might have come from someone who's skimmed through THF's wikipedia page and writes in here to score a post count, it really does to me.
People who leveled THF beyond 37 tell you over and over again how the reality looks like. If you still don't believe, level THF, join any endgame linkshell and see for yourself how it feels like.

[Atomic_Skull]

StanceTHF
Lowers Critical hit Rate, But increases Attack and Damage from SA and TA
Lowers Critical hit rate by 10%, Increases Attack by 10% and SA/TA DMG by 15% each.
*Now you may think the trade off is wierd, But this stance would be really useful in tough content like Voidwatch, where the THF is mostly only using SA and TA then moving out of range.



15% attack and lowered critical hit rate is going to lower your damage on voidwatch NMs because daggers have low weapon rank Voidwatch NM's have crazy DEF and 15% attack isn't going to raise your overall damage as much as 10% critical attack rate.

Give THF a force crit JA that works from any direction which provides a cRatio bonus in place of the DEX and AGI based weapon DMG bonus of SATA. Said ability would have a 20 second cooloff, and share it's timer with Sneak Attack *and* Trick Attack.

Give THF a stance that increases attack and critical hit rate 15% but lowers evasion and defense by 20%

Give THF a stance that increases defense and lowers enemy critical hit rate by 15% and lowers critical hit rate and attack by 10% (this is mutually exclusive with the above like Hasso and Saigen)

[Juxtaposition]

It's great to have job loyalty and all, but SE is making it super clear that they don't intend to ever give THFs buffs they exactly need. You really would be better suited using the effort you put into giving THF fixes and put that into an Abyssea party with a job SE will actually improve.

[Laphine]

man the discussion heated over night.

Closing 700 pages replies (lol) with 40 days of existance. I hope the devs wake up <.<

[Insaniac]

It's great to have job loyalty and all, but SE is making it super clear that they don't intend to ever give THFs buffs they exactly need. You really would be better suited using the effort you put into giving THF fixes and put that into an Abyssea party with a job SE will actually improve.
I guess I should just /toss my mandau then?

[Insaniac]

man the discussion heated over night.

Closing 700 pages with 40 days of existance. I hope the devs wake up <.<The craziest thing is there's no real controversy in the thread to fuel the posts. I skimmed the RDM melee thread and the Billing petition thread (the only 2 threads longer than this one that I see.) and it's just a bunch of back and forth about controversial subjects. Everyone is pretty much in agreement that SE has no freaking clue what they are doing with THF even if opinions vary on what they need to do to fix the job. RDM got their DD spell and new billing options are otw. When's it THFs turn?

[FrankReynolds]

Maybe you will get lucky and they will give mandau to dnc next update too. :P

[Alaik]

So because Aura Steal works on things dispel sometime can't it won't be helped out. Even though there's stuff dispel can take that aura steal can't..

Here's an idea. 5 minute recast on headbutt. It can stun stuff that stun sometimes can't and stun doesn't do damage. I'm sure BLUs would totally agree with this logic.

If Aura Steal could actually remove an otherwise permanent effect or hell, if mug could, I'd be content with the 5 of 15 minute recast. As someone mentioned before, removing Turul's Shock Spikes is worth a hella long recast. Gaining blaze spikes from trash if you don't steal a yagudo feather, not so much.

[Juxtaposition]

I guess I should just /toss my mandau then?

Don't worry, there's always RDM.

[Insaniac]

Wait for the dagger and join me in saying OMFG! (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4930-%E6%96%B0%E6%94%BB%E7%95%A5%E5%9E%8B%E3%83%90%E3%83%88%E3%83%AB%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%83%86%E3%83%B3%E3%83%84%E3%80%8C%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%83%89%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A9%E3%83%83%E3%83%81%E3%80%8D%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6?p=179987&viewfull=1#post179987)

First good news for THF in months!!!

[Laphine]

lol fun, and an unusual model to boot, yay

And look at the base damage of this baby. I wonder if we are going to see some big boost on the base damage of relic/mythic/emp.

[Byrth]

Unlike Oneiros Knife, I notice that Dancer is on that dagger. Imma be in ur voidwatch arriances steeling ur daggurz (from chests).

[Karbuncle]

15% attack and lowered critical hit rate is going to lower your damage on voidwatch NMs because daggers have low weapon rank Voidwatch NM's have crazy DEF and 15% attack isn't going to raise your overall damage as much as 10% critical attack rate.

Give THF a force crit JA that works from any direction which provides a cRatio bonus in place of the DEX and AGI based weapon DMG bonus of SATA. Said ability would have a 20 second cooloff, and share it's timer with Sneak Attack *and* Trick Attack.

Give THF a stance that increases attack and critical hit rate 15% but lowers evasion and defense by 20%

Give THF a stance that increases defense and lowers enemy critical hit rate by 15% and lowers critical hit rate and attack by 10% (this is mutually exclusive with the above like Hasso and Saigen)

Sorry for the mega bump, But the idea of this ability was to be used on fights where you did not melee. You know, the Ironclad Voidwatch mob, the Chloris one, the harpy... Pretty much all of the ones with annoying AoEs and heavy damage AoEs where most people play it safe and not put 17DD on it and generally try to proc before killing.

It would be a stance used specifically for far away fights, Not melee. I'm sorry if you missed that part. I imagined that your crit rate wont matter too much when your only goal is to run up > SA > TA > Run away, And it would be a decent trade off.


Wait for the dagger and join me in saying OMFG! (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4930-%E6%96%B0%E6%94%BB%E7%95%A5%E5%9E%8B%E3%83%90%E3%83%88%E3%83%AB%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%83%86%E3%83%B3%E3%83%84%E3%80%8C%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%83%89%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A9%E3%83%83%E3%83%81%E3%80%8D%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6?p=179987&viewfull=1#post179987)

First good news for THF in months!!!

I don't think a dagger is going to fix the job, but even i have to admit, that it one bad ass weapon.

[Phen]

i wonder what severe damage is on that @_@

[Karbuncle]

Probably a fancy way of saying Occ. Deals Triple/Quad damage.

[Camate]

I understand all your concerns and I am doing my best to communicate them all to the development team. Just hang in there a bit while I try to get some additional comments.

[Karbuncle]

I know Ive said it before but i don't blame you for any of this camate :(, And i know you're absolutely doing your job to your fullest. I do not doubt that.

I'm actually thrilled you've taken such an interest in our concerns... It really does make me a bit happy to know you're trying your best for us. Even if they only give you what we think is bad news :X

[DebbieGibson]

Wait for the dagger and join me in saying OMFG! (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4930-%E6%96%B0%E6%94%BB%E7%95%A5%E5%9E%8B%E3%83%90%E3%83%88%E3%83%AB%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%83%86%E3%83%B3%E3%83%84%E3%80%8C%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%83%89%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A9%E3%83%83%E3%83%81%E3%80%8D%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6?p=179987&viewfull=1#post179987)

First good news for THF in months!!!

Can someone tell me the stats on it, I can't see the video at work.

[Karbuncle]

Can someone tell me the stats on it, I can't see the video at work.

DMG:49 Delay:iforgot(Low, Like 180 low)
Critical hit Rate +5% Occasional Does severe damage.

[DebbieGibson]

DMG:49 Delay:iforgot(Low, Like 180 low)
Critical hit Rate +5% Occasional Does severe damage.

Wow it's a mandau o_O

[Riggs]

I understand all your concerns and I am doing my best to communicate them all to the development team. Just hang in there a bit while I try to get some additional comments.

Dude please express to the dev team that we don't want their ridiculous stat steals, what we want is an increase in triple attack stats an increase in dual wield and an attack bonus, not abilities make them job traits

[Karbuncle]

I'm sure Camate's seen my http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13211-The-THF-Master-Suggestion-Thread-Compilation.-Read-Contribute! thread.

He knows what we want :) He'll do his best to relay it to them.

[Karbuncle]

Wow it's a mandau o_O

Yah its an epic weapon... No doubt in my mind its very very magnificent. I'm just sad in knowing it will be almost impossible to obtain. But i'll be getting it no matter what.

Mandau/Newweapon is going to be a combo to rock the ages.

[Byrth]

Right next to SCH and DNC, Drowning and hoping SE throws them a life-jacket, but alas, We drown.

Bully was like throwing us a Life jacket made of Lead :O!

Additional Enmity on Animated Flourish . . . increase hit rate for Desperate Flourish . . . 3 FM Triple Attack Flourish . . . . . . . saying they'll never split Waltz timers. I'd say you guys aren't the only ones getting a lead vest, but at least I can use Dancer to easily duo with myself.

[Karbuncle]

No, DNC's wasn't a lead Vest, it was an Iron Ball'n'Chain tied to your ankles.

[Camate]

I know Ive said it before but i don't blame you for any of this camate :(, And i know you're absolutely doing your job to your fullest. I do not doubt that.

I'm actually thrilled you've taken such an interest in our concerns... It really does make me a bit happy to know you're trying your best for us. Even if they only give you what we think is bad news :X

I love this game just as much as you all do and I have no doubt in my mind that the reason why people get so heated is because they care about this game a lot.

[Panthera]

Regarding the Efficacy of Aura Steal
While this is only one example, it might be possible to make Aura Steal its own ability and keep its recast timer shared with Steal. However, there is a high possibility that we will need to balance this by reducing the absorption rate as a trade-off, and I don’t think this would be very desirable.

Nononononononono! Please don't steal my 100% absorption rate!

[Alhanelem]

The one little thing that the devs need to remember about any job feature that many users are critical of is they are critical of it for a reason. In this case, the developers seem to think that Aura steal is a really good ability, but for the most part, players don't think so and don't get/use it. I think especially in the case of a merit ability that people don't obtain often, that they need to take a more careful look at it. After all, if you put something in the game and nobody uses it, it was effectively a waste of effort to add unless it gets improved down the line.

That being said, I'm sure everyone here appriciates your efforts. I just hope something nice comes out of this :)

[Karbuncle]

I don't think a single person with a brain in this thread Blames Camate or the Representatives for the information they bring us.

If anything i feel sorry for them, Must feel like dipping themselves in a raptor pit :X

[Nebo]

I love this game just as much as you all do and I have no doubt in my mind that the reason why people get so heated is because they care about this game a lot.

I realise there has been a lot of negative feedback on these issues...and is "heated" as you say...

My oppinion is that the reason for this is the large disconnect between developer vision for THF and actual gameplay in today's FFXI.

I only hope that negative....even "heated" feedback is not viewed as "not constructive." I really hope that when the feedback is conveyed to the developers, that they know how negative and "heated" it is.

I think this is important.

But I really do want to thank you for your efforts, Camate. I know how hard your job can be, dealing with all of these frustrated people.

[Phen]

Jumping on the camate love train to feel good station. Seriously we appreciate it. Please don't take it as shooting the messenger, besides since its thief our marksmanship level means we'd probably miss (BA-DUM TSSH).

[Babekeke]

DMG:49 Delay:iforgot(Low, Like 180 low)
Critical hit Rate +5% Occasional Does severe damage.

DMG:49 Delay:189 DEX +15
Crit hit rate +5% Occasionally deals Severe Damate (most likely a spelling mistake)
Lv95 THF BRD COR DNC

Close, just wanted to add the DEX you missed off, and clarify delay^^

[Byrth]

ftr, no form of crit rate on weapons has been known to affect any other weapon.

[Karbuncle]

Even so, that'd make a damn solid Main Hand weapon for non-Relic/Emp Holders, and a very respectable off-hand for those Relic/Emp holders.

DEX+15 alone would make it a beast for Rudra's, combined with its stellar DPS and yet to be known Added effect.

(Note Byrth: I know you're not discounting the weapon, just laying a fact :))

[Byrth]

Oh yeah, it'd be an awesome mainhand/offhand for sure, I think. I'd guess it'll be the best non-big-3 DD mainhand weapon for sure for any dagger job outside Abyssea.

The downsides are, it has lower DPS than the level 90 Twashtar (let alone 95 Mandau or Twashtar) and the crit rate will likely only affect the hand it's in. We can probably expect Twashtar to go up to 20 DEX in the next update, too, which continues to be the most undervalued part of the weapon (hello capped dDEX), and combined with this dagger (35 DEX on weapons) I think we'd be able to cap dDEX on damned near anything.

[Supersun]

Occasionally deals severe damate

So... is that dagger supposed to say "Occasionally deals Severe Damage" or "Occasionally deals Severe Camate"

...Honestly, I'm not sure which one is scarier.

Edit: Damn, Krab beat me to it in the other thread D:

[Insaniac]

I love this game just as much as you all do and I have no doubt in my mind that the reason why people get so heated is because they care about this game a lot. I always try and remember to preface my disappointed/angry replies to your posts with a disclaimer that I am in no way mad at you. I imagine you might be as frustrated as us when you have to give us info from the devs that you know is gonna make us rage after you spend time trying to convey to them that we are unhappy. Keep up the good work!!

[Insaniac]

Oh yeah, it'd be an awesome mainhand/offhand for sure, I think. I'd guess it'll be the best non-big-3 DD mainhand weapon for sure for any dagger job outside Abyssea.

The downsides are, it has lower DPS than the level 90 Twashtar (let alone 95 Mandau or Twashtar) and the crit rate will likely only affect the hand it's in. We can probably expect Twashtar to go up to 20 DEX in the next update, too, which continues to be the most undervalued part of the weapon (hello capped dDEX), and combined with this dagger (35 DEX on weapons) I think we'd be able to cap dDEX on damned near anything. This dagger is gonna let me use my glavoid shells on an ukon with a clear conscience. Mandau/SparkleKnife for life!!

[SpankWustler]

I love this game just as much as you all do and I have no doubt in my mind that the reason why people get so heated is because they care about this game a lot.

Still, I bet it sucks reading through a Thomas Pinchon novel worth of disgruntled posts about a video-game. Thanks for understanding.

[noodles355]

I understand all your concerns and I am doing my best to communicate them all to the development team. Just hang in there a bit while I try to get some additional comments.
After this, and when you said you're hounding the dev team for info on rng/cor's ammo issues, I have to say I love you. It's nice to know we are being heard because tbh I think a lot of people were beginning to doubt.

[FrankReynolds]

After this, and when you said you're hounding the dev team for info on rng/cor's ammo issues, I have to say I love you. It's nice to know we are being heard because tbh I think a lot of people were beginning to doubt.

Now that we know that you are reading this stuff, is there any chance that you could mention that so far bully sucks?

[Camate]

First off, I just want to let you know that I have already delivered all of your concerns expressed in this thread thus far to the development team, however, I have not received a comment as of yet.

Putting that aside for the moment, I do have some additional information about stacking the effect of Treasure Hunter when using SA-WS/TA-WS/SATA-WS.

Based on feedback we have received we will be performing the below adjustments:
• Making it so an increase in the effect of Treasure Hunter is possible when using a close range physical weapon skill (*1)
• When using a weapon skill by itself, the rate of increase will be the same as a normal close range attack.
• When combining a weapon skill with Sneak Attack/Trick Attack, the rate of increase will be the same as using Sneak Attack/Trick Attack.

As stated previously, with the current system we are unable to display Treasure Hunter effect increase in the log when using weapon skills.

If we were to try and make it so it is displayed in the log, the work load would be roughly equivalent to the amount of work needed to adjust multiple jobs, so because of this we are not planning to make adjustments to this. Likewise, we do not have any plans of adding the effect increase animation for the same reason. We apologize.

As for the implementation timing, it will most likely be some time after the version update scheduled for the end of September, so please check it out on the test server. As we get information we will let you know.

Another adjustment we will be making is reducing the recast timer for “Bully” from 5 minutes to 3 minutes based off feedback and what we have been monitoring on the test server


Depending on how many players are in the battle, the rate of intimidation will increase (*2), so please try it out (of course there is a cap).

*1 If it is a multi-hit weapon skill, the increase will occur on only the first hit.
*2 If a player outside of the party has generated enmity on the enemy (for example, an outside WHM curing a THF in the party), even players outside of the party will be considered as participating in the battle.

[Insaniac]

Thank you Camate!

Does this post mean that at the moment WSs can not increase TH?

And could you tell the dev team that bully not being so terrible during solo/duo play would be awesome since that is one of the only places a THF really shines. I am fine with scaling effects based on party size but starting the scaling at useless seems kinda mean ;_;.

[Nebo]

Another adjustment we will be making is reducing the recast timer for “Bully” from 5 minutes to 3 minutes based off feedback and what we have been monitoring on the test server


Depending on how many players are in the battle, the rate of intimidation will increase (*2), so please try it out (of course there is a cap).

A 30 second duration is still too short.

[FrankReynolds]

Little rays of sunshine. Glad to hear that they are trying to make bully better.

FYI, I don't think anyone is nearly as interested in seeing treasure hunter level as they are in seeing what the actual drop rate increase is. This may have been lost in translation?

I want to see something that says " Hey every body! The Thief just increased drop rates by ----- amount! aren't you glad you brought a Thief?"

Of course this would also require that Thief main actually had that effect, which we currently don't.

I could be way off on this, but I don't remember the chat log part being the real issue. Anyways, Thanks for the hard work.

[Zirael]

Thank you Camate!

Does this post mean that at the moment WSs can not increase TH?

And could you tell the dev team that bully not being so terrible during solo/duo play would be awesome since that is one of the only places a THF really shines. I am fine with scaling effects based on party size but starting the scaling at useless seems kinda mean ;_;.
Oh, bugger, so my original assumption of it not working on SA/TA-WS and SA/TA-Feint might've been correct... And here, after reading this thread, I told my friends that; I'm still upgrading on those SA-Rudras, but they just can't see it, hahaha. They'll burn me alive ._.

[Karbuncle]

I figured it didn't proc on WS...

Either way, Thanks VM Camate, It may not be exactly what we want, but everything you gave us right now is positive, so its good news :)

Could you possibly convince them to make Bully last 60sec? 3min rec 1min dur allows us to keep it up 33% of the time, Which would make it quite useful, but i dont think overpowered. They might... Its shaping up to be pretty nice, lets take it just one step further!

[Byrth]

Holy lolTHF, batman.

I guess it's good news that they're going to let you proc more, but I was already assuming TH could upgrade on any WS hit (like all 6 hits of Evisceration). Not to mention that the whole proc system doesn't matter at all until someone figures out what it does, if it does anything.

Camate, could you please reassure us that the proc system (and TH III) give a drop rate increase? So far we have been unable to confirm it ourselves. If possible, could you just tell us how Treasure Hunter works?

[FrankReynolds]

If possible, could you just tell us how Treasure Hunter works?

Or better yet, Just make it powerful enough that we don't have to WONDER if its working. It shouldn't take killing and documenting 10,000 monsters and the drop rates just to prove that the benefits of higher tiers actually exist. That should be a giant Flashing red warning light to the Developers that the effect is broken and or worthless.

They have no problem doing this with !!! procs. I don't see why it should be a problem for Thief.

[DebbieGibson]

THF main being required just for the one job trait would really suck. Though I guess having to level another alt is better than having to do everything twice as much as I would have to otherwise.

[Juxtaposition]

Or better yet, Just make it powerful enough that we don't have to WONDER if its working. It shouldn't take killing and documenting 10,000 monsters and the drop rates just to prove that the benefits of higher tiers actually exist. That should be a giant Flashing red warning light to the Developers that the effect is broken and or worthless.

They have no problem doing this with !!! procs. I don't see why it should be a problem for Thief.

Have you not done seal farming with and without a THF? The effect of TH is very noticeable. Grellow with TH you get 3-4 (+1 timed NMs) with an occasional 2; Grellow without TH nets you 1-2, with an occasional 3 and very rare 0.

What you are asking for is for TH to turn on staggers, with +70% increases to the treasure pool.

I wouldn't be surprised if TH multiplies the chance for an idea to drop, so if TH7 gives a +10% increase to drops, something like seals who drop 90% of the time with Grellow, go up to 99% drop. However, something that has a terrible drop rate, like Kings pop items, say 10% drop rate would only go up to 11% total drop chance - not as big of an impact.

It goes without saying those numbers are ones I pulled from my bum to illustrate my point.

It would be nice, though, if the Tanakan powers that be would tell us exactly how it works, but I expect we will never get such a mechanical question answered.

[Nebo]

Have you not done seal farming with and without a THF?.

All the time. Especially low man, you make sure you have your essential jobs first: DDTank/WHM/Weakness trigger jobs, etc and THEN if you have a non-essential slot left over you see about bringing a THF main for TH & drops.

Anyone else can /THF (or BST or RNG for that matter) for TH II (usually the WHM/THF) and get very similar results as THF main. THF main has been third string for making things drop for quite a while....especially since all the new endgame events started to have weakness trigger requirements for good droprates (Or worse events like Voidwatch or any KSNM/BCNM/ENM etc where TH doesn't do anything).

Weakness Trigger > THF main every time. If someone needs seals/+2 items and there isn't a BLM coming with us, I CHANGE from THF to BLM to get better drops.

That. Shit. Is F*cked up.

[Insaniac]

Have you not done seal farming with and without a THF? The effect of TH is very noticeable. Grellow with TH you get 3-4 (+1 timed NMs) with an occasional 2; Grellow without TH nets you 1-2, with an occasional 3 and very rare 0.

What you are asking for is for TH to turn on staggers, with +70% increases to the treasure pool.

I wouldn't be surprised if TH multiplies the chance for an idea to drop, so if TH7 gives a +10% increase to drops, something like seals who drop 90% of the time with Grellow, go up to 99% drop. However, something that has a terrible drop rate, like Kings pop items, say 10% drop rate would only go up to 11% total drop chance - not as big of an impact.

It goes without saying those numbers are ones I pulled from my bum to illustrate my point.

It would be nice, though, if the Tanakan powers that be would tell us exactly how it works, but I expect we will never get such a mechanical question answered.
The concern is that the difference between TH2 and TH10 is un-noticable not TH as a whole is un-noticable.

[Monchat]

not really... it is probably not noticable on rare drops [Blue proced Indrik with Th7-8, 1/4 droped in 20 fights], but very noticable on common ones ( example farming pop items).The other days I farmed ulhuadshi. the first 6 I yellow proced and TH6 only ( THF range attacks). Only got 2 jewels. Next round I proced 6 Ulhuadshi and did TH9-10, got 6 jewels.

I got other examples with emperador de altepa where yellow proced, TH6' d Nms drop almost no seal, while TH9-10 would guarrante 2-3.

In dynamis I got ~175 coins the few times i entered w/o THF, and I usually get 250+ with TH6. Etc.

[FrankReynolds]

The concern is that the difference between TH2 and TH10 is un-noticable not TH as a whole is un-noticable.

Exactly. Treasure Hunter 10 should be MORE noticeable than Treasure Hunter 2. Also, to further add to Nebos Point..... That Thief that swaps to BLM is most likely coming /BRD. not /THF. Procs are that much more powerful.

So far all evidence points towards all upgrades to Treasure Hunter from gear or Damage as being nothing more than an excuse to nerf all other aspects of Thief.

On the flip side, Maybe now that the cats out of the bag, the Developers can justify making Thief a real DD or Support class, and tell people " Well, Treasure Hunter doesn't do much so we had to give them something." .

Crossing my fingers that something good happens.

[Insaniac]

not really... it is probably not noticable on rare drops [Blue proced Indrik with Th7-8, 1/4 droped in 20 fights], but very noticable on common ones ( example farming pop items).The other days I farmed ulhuadshi. the first 6 I yellow proced and TH6 only ( THF range attacks). Only got 2 jewels. Next round I proced 6 Ulhuadshi and did TH9-10, got 6 jewels.

I got other examples with emperador de altepa where yellow proced, TH6' d Nms drop almost no seal, while TH9-10 would guarrante 2-3.

In dynamis I got ~175 coins the few times i entered w/o THF, and I usually get 250+ with TH6. Etc.I'm on THF probably 80% of the time for events and I honestly see no increase from anything above TH3. On big stuff I'm killing for myself I have tried TH2 TH3 and TH6+ and none of them seem any different to me.

[DebbieGibson]

Don't understand this whole noticeable/unnoticeable thing. If something is 10% droprate, you aren't going to be able to eyeball the difference. "noticeable" is not what you should be concerned with. The hard testing over in the TH thread is what matters.

[Nebo]

Don't understand this whole noticeable/unnoticeable thing. If something is 10% droprate, you aren't going to be able to eyeball the difference. "noticeable" is not what you should be concerned with. The hard testing over in the TH thread is what matters.

The hard testing over in the TH thread is what we are referring to when we say "no noticable difference"

[DebbieGibson]

The hard testing over in the TH thread is what we are referring to when we say "no noticable difference"


Exactly. Treasure Hunter 10 should be MORE noticeable than Treasure Hunter 2.


I'm on THF probably 80% of the time for events and I honestly see no increase from anything above TH3. On big stuff I'm killing for myself I have tried TH2 TH3 and TH6+ and none of them seem any different to me.

Oh I see...

[Kysaiana]

This is merely allegorical so take from it what you will. I was farming a coffer key in Davoi on THF for the AF gloves I had never bothered to get before. I spent a good 2 hours there and never saw a key drop with TH 6-8 on all the mobs. I eventually just opened the coffer with Living keys after three or so failed attempts. Later I was fighting mobs in Toraimorai Canal on SMN and a coffer key drops on the 3rd mob with 0 TH...

[Babekeke]

Don't understand this whole noticeable/unnoticeable thing. If something is 10% droprate, you aren't going to be able to eyeball the difference. "noticeable" is not what you should be concerned with. The hard testing over in the TH thread is what matters.

If we only killed a mob 10% slower by being on THF instead of WAR or MNK, or even other sub-par DDs, this might be acceptable. At least for a NM where you don't need to farm 4 KIs to pop it. Unfortunately, even my gimp geared war deals at leas 33% more damage then my well geared THF, and the low HP of THF means there's more chance I'll die to AOE magic too. No subtle blow combined with low attack speed and high triple attack means I have to disengage and run away for most of the fight when not landing SA/TA or procing a ws.

[Lordscyon]

Funny but true why not give us thief more solo job traits that works without a party member in party.
I think they don't because thief has too much evasion like ninja xD