Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[Nala]

This is probably the only thing I can understand and agree on as we get subtle blow from the support jobs we generally use on THF and the use of Conspirator.

I may be widely mistaken but im pretty sure that giving us DW was a ploy to encourage other SJ usage in order to augment our damage, like war, but in doing so you sacrifice subtle blow and surviavability. At the very least when it comes to abyssea im asked to come/war because it allows me to cover more procs that way we have back ups when some one goofs.

thats how i read the adding of DW to thief, which is counter to your point, if we have DW and are expected to sub more damage enhancing subs that dont give SB then why cant we get it naturally? but as i said perhaps i read the Dev team wrong in their intentions of giving us DW.

[Alaik]

Lets not talk about "max level of TH" like it matters, for two reasons:
1) Trait level TH has a dramatically higher effect than the TH proc system they introduced. The difference between a TH3+3 and TH3 THF is going to be almost undetectable unless you have a well-controlled test with a high sample size, and if you do I'd love to see it.
2) TH in gear just determines your starting point for the TH proc system. Though I have no formal testing, I feel confident that the odds of a TH level proc decrease as the level gets higher, so starting at TH level 5 vs. TH level 6 probably doesn't matter much on stuff with high HP that you're going to have plenty of opportunity to proc.

Also, even if it did matter it wouldn't be hard to get. My THF mule has TH3+3 for his level 90 THF and I have TH3+2 for my level 50 THF (stored on the Porter Moogle). Durinn is easy, TK is cheap, and Ass Armlets are soloable by quite a few jobs.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/63785-Drop-Rate-Analysis-and-Treasure-Hunter

Everyone knows gear has less effect than the traits (I assume they do anyway), but that's never stopped people for saying "TH4 or GTFO" at 75 or the same about TH6 now.

Also, I personally think the gear isn't hugely necessary though only the knife is something I ditch. (DMG increase is way more important than the small bonus it gives), though many believe the THF must use all of the items, their reasoning being that mobs die so quickly (Dyna, abyssea, etc) that having the gear on will GREATLY add more procs than meleeing will, compared to losing the gear. In a way they're right, if a mob dies in 5 seconds and you get 3 melee attack rounds in, there's a good chance you won't see a single TH+1, but having a +1 in gear affects it from the getgo. Several events feature this type of fighting.

Of course the later example is equally a design problem as a playerbase problem. THF really has nothing else to bring to the table, so maximize what you have, I guess.

[Laphine]

That and it's not a golden ticket. Unless you're the only THF around with max level TH, and if you don't have max level TH it's not. People generally bring one THF and only for TH, and once that quota is filled, no more THFs are getting in.
Oh i meant TH is a golden ticket for the job. It's very different than being a golden ticket for the player. There would always be a THF where TH worked, doesn't matter his skill/gear sets, just like death and AH taxes lol.

[Alaik]

Yeah, I assumed. I just hate the phrase golden ticket, and want to punch anyone who thinks it really is.

Pet peeve, etc. lol

[Kuraudo]

I'm not a THF, but I know enough about the job to know it needs improvements. I do remember in the other Final Fantasy games that Steal was used to obtain rare valuable items. Right now there is nothing worthwhile to Steal in our current endgame.

I would love to see THFs steal something of value in endgame.


I want to thank you, Camate, and the development team for taking the time to attempt to address our concerns.

I am really at a loss for words on some of these responses. I am very sorry that this is going to sound disrespectful because this is most certainly not my intention.

But it really does feel that the developement team is very out of touch with the difficulties that the job faces and the actual utility of the unique abilities that THF has left.



This, specifically, worries me greatly. What the treasure hunter melee update has done is create a situation where the mechanics of how the THF job functions are in direct contradiction.

We are supposed to be engaging the monster to enhance treasure hunter? OK. But with A) the extremely low proc rate on Treasure Hunter for melee swings, and B) the sheer amount of TP we feed to high level Notorious Monsters, this has simply created a situation where THF will not be allowed to engage and forced simply to Sneak Attack and Trick Attack the Monster as timers allow while disengaged. Even with subtle blow gear, it is not worth it for a THF to engage for the purpose of Treasure hunter procs on normal attacks.

And quite honestly....I can see no visible difference between treasure hunter effectiveness level 6 and treasure hunter effectiveness level 13. How about throw us a bone and actually TELL us what it does? (I know, I know....what a crazy idea.)



This kind of reply makes me think that no one on the Dev Team has ever tested or played THF to know why this won;t work. The dev team removed the possibility for this tactic to work a very long time ago. For 1) Hide doesn't work on much of anything at all (thanks for that btw). 2) After this adjustment, you can only steal from a monster once and then you need to kill and respawn it to be able to steal again.

You must understand the frustration here. The developement team has taken so much from us in this area without giving anything to fill that void. The adjustment to steal to address the gold coin situation, the removal of valuable items from treasure coffers, the phasing out of Mug by refusing to give any new monsters any gil to steal, etc.

I understand this is a difficult issue, but the idea that seperating aurasteal from steal would be overpowered? Especially given that they are tied to a (needlessly long)5 minute recast timer? I don't understand that logic. They are completely seperate abilities with completely seperate functions that, because of the way they were combined, are often in contradiction with each other.

Seperating Aurasteal would not make it overpowered. The fact that it is tied to a 5 minute recast timer AND combined with Steal make it severely underpowered as a 75+ job ability. What seperating them would do is give us our very first steal ability that was acutally useful for its function.

I don't understand this need for the development team to sort of, kind of, almost give THF something that is useful. And then completely kill its relevance with either a needlessly long/shared recast timer or really messed up functionality. There is nothing about THF right now that is even remotely close to thinking about the possibility of being overpowered. Really? REALLY? It would be Overpowered!? THAT is your reason? Are you kidding me with this?



Adding things to Despoil is not going to fix Despoil. The ability itself really needs to be taken a look at and reconsidered. The items that despoil steals are of no use to anyone at this point in the game's lifespan. Adding Despoil as a post-75 level cap ability really accentuates the serious disconnect between the playerbase and the Developement team. I really don't think they understand how taxed our inventory is....that aurasteal and despoil both require you to have inventory space to even attempt to take advantage of their effects

But even the fact that Despoil attempts to steal an item as a requsite for its enfeebling effect to occur is useless at this stage in FFXI's lifespan. The variability of that enfeebling effect, should the steal be a success, is useless in any situation you would want to enfeeble any enemy. A variable enfeebling effect on a 5 minute timer is really quite useless. But most importantly, the fact that it takes away the ability to (aura)steal (the ONLY remotely useful steal we have) makes it exceptionally useless.

Again, I am sorry to sound disrespectful. I know what I knightmare it must be to address agnry and whiny players demading changes for their job.

But the disconnect between the playerbase and the Dev Team on these key issues really worries me. After seeing their vision for the job and hearing these responses, I find myself very discouraged for the future of my beloved THF.

You are so worried about making us "over powered" that almost everything you have given us has been "under powered" to the point of functional uselessness.

I agree with everything Nebo said and others that have posted like Karbuncle.

Camate, thank you for your hard work on delivering us important information, but please tell the Dev Team to pay close attention to what the players want and how the players play the job.

[Babygyrl]

Pretty much steal will still be useless :p lol but im okay with it i guess, i hardly use it anyway except in Dynamis.. Though since steal can Proc it really should have a higher success rate in Namis... especially with a 5 min recast.. i am lucky to steal 1 coin in an entire run..

I wish thief was getting some kind of voke type thing.. We are suppose to be "hate controllers" that would be nice to have...

I am really excited for the new job abilities!!

[Byrth]

I see your 2008 thread and raise you a 2010 thread (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/95489-TH-testing-final-results).

Neither of them are relevant to the new proc system, or the effect of Treasure Hunter +1.

[Karbuncle]

I somehow doubt TH1/2 Were changed with the new proc system.

I wish people would test TH+1, I'm still convinced it falls into the "+1% drop rate" theory. Which means TH11 is basically +8% on top of the improvements from TH1/2 and untested TH3.

that thread was a nice one...

[Tokiro]

I assure you, It was not our priority either :x

Given some time to think I could like THF as a support/DD/TH-whore so long as they did it right and updated a lot of our JAs.

Me, too. Just give THF stuff to do that actually means something. I get a kick out of aura steal (when it works) and though there are usually strained silences when nothing interesting drops after getting TH up to 10, it is nice to be appreciated if only for TH. THF was fun in the beginning because we could do a lot of stuff in EXP parties that would make the EXP fly through the roof. We could also have a fairly big effect on hate management. I agree with most of the posts here that the TH whore just isn't going to kick it. The AF3 gear is awesome in theory. In practice, you're just a superfast TP donor with reasonable survival skills. Oh, and TH... If we're supposed to be ducking and diving so much, why are we standing around, out of range, waiting for SA/TA to recover? Why not give us an ability that puts damage at zero and hacks away at stats or something? It could be linked to AGI or DEX or, heaven forbid, CHR! It could be made situational, whereby according to the build, you hack at a certain stat. High INT takes down MND, DEX takes down AGI, AGI takes down DEX etc etc. It would make equipping a nightmare, but also great fun. That would solve the TP donor problem and if it were not as unreliable as steal and the TH proc, could actually save the job. I'm just brainstorming here, but something where we could actually debuff real stuff instead of a hit-and-miss dispel's poorer cousin and the occasional acid bolt would be a big improvement. While we do that, we could go back to SA/TA when we have them to inflict some damage and raise the ever-awesome TH ;) Any thoughts?

[Byrth]

I really liked that thread too, but it left three questions unanswered:

1) How does TH affect the drop rate of slots with multiple possible drops? (ie, if it was 10% Dhalmel Hide/20% Dhalmel meat in a slot, how would it work?) - Never explicitly tested, though Bahamut v2 implies it likely works using my "no drop" rate calculation.

2) How does TH+1 work? - Also never explicitly tested. I'd like the +1% thing except for one major problem with it:
* Assuming we're going off the "no drop" rate thing, where a slot is "rerolled" if it fails to be filled, then items with low drop rate would be really dramatically affected by TH+10. I don't know about you guys, but personal experience for me seems to point to this not being the case.
* For instance, say you have something with a 5% drop rate that is in an unshared slot. TH3 would turn the 5% drop rate into an 18% drop rate. TH Level 10 (+10% drop rate) would make it a 15% drop rate base, which would turn into a 50% drop rate. The difference between an 18% and a 50% drop rate should be pretty incredibly obvious, and I don't feel that just putting a high level of TH on Blue-dropper monsters gets you a 50% drop rate.

3) Does TH3 follow the pattern set up by TH1 and TH2? - Implied assumption is that it does, but I might as well list it.


An alternative to the TH+1% per Treasure Hunter +1 would be:
* Treasure Hunter +1 gives you a 1% chance of another "re-roll"

[Babekeke]

To Camate and all at the dev team: Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to our gripes and groans :D
I don't wish to shoot the messenger, so please don't take this personally, Camate.

However, though it's all been covered, I shan't go into how the vision kind of sucks for us thieves.

I do, however feel sorry for all non-war DDs after this coming update, especially thf drg and rng, and I suppose mnk itself even falls into this category: The 1 place where war didn't outshine the other DDs was vs mobs resistant to piercing or blunt damage. Now SE is planning to fix this, good show! No longer will people need to seek out thf/drg/rng to kill birds (should the best exp spot for 99 be vs them) nor find 3-5 mnks for a pt vs pots/bones. WAR is the only melee you'll ever need if TH isn't required.


Where TH IS REQUIRED then we thieves get to replace 1 of the war in that pt, so maybe we should think ourselves lucky? A little bit at any rate, as long as the mob won't wipe the pt if we feed it tp so we can /war with no subtle blow >.>

Otherwise, we're the prize turkey sat in the corner. Maybe it's just time that we all turn in our triple attack merits (don't want to feed too much tp if it kicks in) and go 5/5 trick, 5/5 sneak so we can use a JA every 25 secs, on top of conspirator, feint (yep, toss out the AC merits too), and hit steal to dispel some buff that's of no use to me (because I neither have hate, not am I meleeing) so that I can save the rdm or /rdm 25 mp (assuming we tossed all of our haste and tp gear because... what's the point anymore? Better to not be 80/80 inv slots so that we can aura steal).

Ok, so I'm a little bitter.

To cheer myself up a little, here's a blast from the past on page 10. A little inb4udevs!


Howdy! We spoke to the development team about your feedback on thief and they provided some commentary. The below is a compilation of responses to both the English and Japanese suggestions/feedback. Hopefully it will give you a better idea of what is planned for thief in the future.

With the large amount of job adjustment discussion going on we have A LOT of feedback to sort through, so while this might not answer every single thing being discussed at the moment, we will try our best to update when we can. Likewise, we will be making our rounds to other job related threads as well!

So, without further ado…



By adding attractive items to monsters, we fear that it would be re-creating the scenario from the past regarding beastcoins (stealing and then hiding right after), making this pretty difficult to implement. If there were a good countermeasure for this it could work, but currently revamping or adding items to monsters is quite difficult.



That’s what Aura Steal is for! The effects stolen by Aura Steal are essentially the raw stats that the monster possesses.



We believe making Aura Steal a separate ability would be over-powered. If we did do this, it’s likely that its use on notorious monsters would be removed and it would have even less of an effect than it does now.



Though we haven’t decided if it will be Aura Steal or not, we do have some rough plans for adding some kind of additional effect to Despoil.



We are looking into separating the two. However, we are close to reaching a point where there are too many recast timers going on simultaneously, so this isn't something we can implement right away.



While thieves possess superior stats for all of the above, we do understand your concerns. I apologize that I can’t go into detail about specific abilities, but we are planning to make adjustments so that thieves are really able to shine.



Due to the fact that normal attacks now increase the effects of Treasure Hunter, we chose to forgo the addition of Subtle Blow as a trade off.



Don’t worry, it will be separate!


It can be slightly re-written to show what they would respond to this thread:


Don’t fret thieves! These example adjustments are just that…examples. It doesn’t mean that every single thing is going to be implemented as stated. All of your suggestions and opinions on these concepts will be relayed to the development team and they will of course consider them when actually creating the adjustments to be implemented. Just keep in mind that their concept of thief, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice damage and usefulness in exchange for gilfinder, steal and treasurehunter.


Thankfully, Camate was kind enough to go into far more specifics for us than for the DRKs, but the general jist of what he said and what I said are the same. :)

Like I said at the start Camate, if you read this, I understand that you are just the messenger so it's nothing personal against you. If someone from the actual dev team posted here, I'd be more than happy to shoot them instead XD

[Yugl]

I can agree to this. But then we have to look at what THF was used for by the Community. I'd say people invited THF for 2 Reasons. 1) to DD (back in old school? SATA + Viper bite better than all, Magic burst freeze? yes), 2) Trick Attack. So we have 2 base roles. DD, and Enmity.

A few issues with your argument:
1. If we agree with SE's original plan for THF, I don't see how it's a problem to maintain that track
2. People invited people for TH purposes, why is that not listed?
3. How else could THF have been played?
4. Remember that we didn't have knowledge of THF's TH mechanics, so part of the reason for melee focus was the belief that it enhanced TH
5. The RDM community believed they would be on track as melee RDM, should we then give into their demands as well because they "believed this is how SE would develop them"?
6. THF's abilities were actually more prominent as a sub rather than as a main, which means SE should focus on features of THF as a sub right?


This just goes back to THF being mislead as they leveled earlier in the game, Today its more obvious (Except maybe to people who don't research all the time), But back then when you leveled THF you expected to hit 75 DD'ing and helping Enmity with Trick Attack, In reality you were a TH whore. That really makes no sense. TH is irrelevant for XP mobs, but THFs need XP nonetheless. What else were they going to do in PTs? If they expected enmity control, then how is the community's original expectation different from SE's plans? The truth is that even if one considered how underdeveloped the TH system was back then, the playerbase made arguments for THF DD, not in the name of damage, but in the name of TH. Remember the beliefs about TH approximating the damage done by THF? Remember the beliefs about THF needing to get the last hit? Even though these were false, they were beliefs and TH bolstering strategies upstarted by the community.



I don't deny the amazingness of our one unique Specialty, I just want a Specialty that lasts more than 1 Melee hit.
Then make plans to develop the TH system further (And SE has already started that). For example, make TH apply to caskets and so forth. I've seen very few "ideas for SE" that compliment this notion.



No i don't really remember SE modeling them off EverQuest... Either Way you bring up another point I would like THF to expand on. Give us more ways to hinder/hurt a mob, Even if its through increases other players. Like i listed a while back, a JA that increases Debuff potency on a mob, Or increases Damage dealt to the target for a small window, Stuff that gives us a use for the other 10 minutes of a fight.EQ was successful prior to WoW and given the similarity in FFXI's and EQ grinding system, the connection has been made. Quite frankly, the role of additional debuffs should go to other melee whom neither have TH nor will compete with WAR. It's unreasonable to demand that WAR, BST, DRK, SAM, DRG, RNG, MNK, BLU, and NIN DD at the same capacity. Some of them will ultimately have to default for suboptimal positions, and in doing so, will need features that make them worth inviting. Siphoning RNG into the TH realm may not be a bad idea, but it will not work for the rest of melees. For those that will be difficult to buff to the realm of top DD, it is more practical to have them function as supportive melees, such that we have...

Healers
Mage Support (BRD/COR)
Primary DD
Secondary DD (Enhances overall, rather than personal, damage at the cost of suboptimal damage output)
Treasure hunter classes (Allow THF to remain leagues ahead of RNG to compensate for damage differences)
Nukers



This is where our Opinions Differ. No other job in the game was completely rejected for 1 piece of armor. If your WAR didn't have Dusk+1, You'd still invite him to DD. Point was THF was completely judged based on those 2 single pieces of Armor, no other job in the game was judged this harshly.

and its all because THF was useless (in the communities eyes) outside of TH. I'm pointing out the Extremes of it. Of course you would check most people gear first, But if someone was a little less than perfect they'd be acceptable.

I have a feeling I know where you'll take this from here but i'll stop and respond to that when the time comes... :XPeople rejected players for not having ACC rings way back. People rejected others for not having Turban during the ToAU era. The present system undermines your point further since TH gear is incredibly easy to obtain now with Dynamis revisions and, as Byrth mentions, the difference between TH gear is somewhat irrelevant since you can easily upgrade from lesser tier TH. By this, I mean that even though a TH5 will trump TH4 at reaching TH12, they'll probably both end up at that value due to the difficulty of gaining further increases. This also means that it's more important for THF to melee.




Still, WHM may only be good for curing (which is bull itself, They have Pro/Shell V at higher potency, and Barspells at higher potency/unique buff to them), but they cure the entire fight. They can even go as far as haste cycles if a RDM isn't covering it. they have something to contribute the entire fight.

Same goes for WAR, they DD the entire fight, They're actively participating int he event in a meaningful way that isn't generally regarded as "Worthless damage that feeds too much TP".And without acceptance of soft cap TH, you have the duty of pumping TH from start to finish. Shell/Prot V is the same for WHM as it is for RDM and SCH (AoE version is what's different). Any sub WHM (And soon sub RDM) member can toss out hastes. None of this response means anything with regard to the central point. If TH becomes irrelevant, then so does THF. However, this is true for the aforementioned classes. If healing is irrelevant, then WHM is is too. If melee damage is irrelevant (Think manaburns), then so is WAR. That's the price of specialization, but as you can see by the examples, specialization is much more significant in this game.



I Don't belittle Treasure hunter in any way, I like the Ability, I acknowledge its the only thing keeping our job relevant, I just want other reasons for our relevance. Thats not asking too muchOk, lets try this with other classes then.

WHM acknowledges its superior healing capabilities and general enhancements, but would like more than that.
WAR acknowledges its superior DD capabilities, but would like more than that.



Edit: And to be frank you'd have almost no chance at Ambusher's hose without Blue proc, If you had to pick a THF+WHM, or a MNK+WHM to get Ambusher's Hose, what would you chose? The MNK, because on Blunt he can do every Blue proc, which ups the drop rate of Ambusher's hose far far more significantly.And guess how many Ambusher's Hoses that person wants to get after obtaining theirs? Compare to how many buds a person starting X Empyrean items wants after obtaining 1-2. We've been over the "boxes and proc!! undermine TH" dilemma. Why not ask for TH to become relevant in those instances? Or even better, an ability to floor drops at the benefit of greater melee action? It really makes no sense how one can acknowledge these facts and decide that improving TH is not the way to go. It's like RDM asking for melee buffs the moment their role is eclipsed/becomes irrelevant.

What I find interesting is how several THFs talk about proc!! undermining the role of THF in abyssea, but don't make that association with DDs. Brews and Atmas undermine melee equipment and MP management (Hello SCH!), but no mention of that. Why's that?

[Insaniac]

I don't buy that you actually believe what you are saying. I feel like you are just here to argue. Accidentally making things drop is not the answer to a job being fun and in the end SEs first priority on all jobs needs to be making them fun to play. Yes it gets at least 1 THF involved in most group events but in most cases they have less fun than anyone else there because their "specialization" is standing around and their mastery of that specialization is measured only by a flip of a coin and the contents of a loot pool. You can't rationally compare that to being the best DD or the best healer or the best tank. It's just not the same. TH is not an excuse for the mediocrity of our damage and the near uselessness of almost all our JAs.

[FrankReynolds]

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=10&mid=1311630190156445174

there's my post on alla, if anyone really cares to read anymore ranting about just how stupid the DEV response was.

What I really came here for was to beg people: Please. For the love of god, STOP POSTING IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO MAKE STEAL/AURASTEAL/DESPOIL BETTER!

They are crap job abilities. They don't need to be tweaked, they need to be replaced. Posting ideas about how to fix them is just going lead to more crappy tweaks on them.

[Nebo]

What I really came here for was to beg people: Please. For the love of god, STOP POSTING IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO MAKE STEAL/AURASTEAL/DESPOIL BETTER!

They are crap job abilities. They don't need to be tweaked, they need to be replaced. Posting ideas about how to fix them is just going lead to more crappy tweaks on them.

It saddens me that I agree so much with this now.

I'm guilty...I posted a lengthy thread of thought and ideas regarding these abilities....I think that steal abilities could have great potential to be ACTUALLY useful. But I have no faith in the Developement team to do anything good with them.

If they think that a 5 minute recast dispel seperated from something as useless as steal would be "overpowered"....we are sooo screwed lol. I would be angry but all I can do is laugh at that.

It will just be more of the same. Shared recast timers. Recast timers that are way too long. Retardedly low success rates to go with the the retardedly long (shared) recast timers. Retarded party only or "doesn't work on the current enmity target" restrictions to go with the retardedly long shared recast timers. Oh and the absolute thrill of not knowing what the ability will do when you press the macro. Will I get an item? Will I get an enhancement effect? Will it miss? Which enfeeble will I enflict?

NOBODY KNOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA The overpoweredness is just too much! lol

I SO wanna put a picture here of Xibit all like "Yo Dawg I heard you like restrictions so we put a restriction on your restrictions so you can fail while you fail.

[Phen]

Yet again thanks Camate -though apparently the dev team i just dont even know. Also if you are going to live in fear of RMT you need to seriously change our job away from item functionality. Dont push us that way while constantly nerfing abuse. I'm referring to treasure chests removed, stealing useful items, gil from monsters removed. These all targeted thief specific abilities and nothing was given back to compensate for the removal.

I just want to compare some visions with reality:

Dev Team Vision:
-Drop rates and items
-Aura steal/despoil useful
-Hate control
-Positional DD

Issues with Dev team vision:
-TH not nearly as effective as team play (procs) increase still negligible to majority of player base
steal is useless- aura steal requires 5 merits be decently useful and even then fails. If any other job fails dispel they can try again in 90 seconds maximum. Not all of these absorb and all cost mp or an item. Still even at a two minute timer for a chance that would still put it behind all other dispelling jobs.
-Collab and Trick attack equate to nothing---- TA ws still amount to maybe an extra ws by tank, half of a major melee damage or blm spell (therefore getting a little extra on tank) Collab is probably just as useful animus in hate control. Good idea but the current enmity system severely hinders its usefulness.
-Position, like dark, requires sacrifices and strategy--- increase in damage will still put you at half the damage of most melee making perfect positioning vital to keep the job lagging behind by a huge margin. Also last I checked
So you need a significant change in all three categories. A damage increase or many more abilities that can do things like bleed hate away or lower the enmity cap for a support role. TH needs a more discernible change in drop rates--- if a good half the player base says "placebo hunter" something is WRONG. Seeing as whats wrong with steal/despoil/aura steal has been beaten to death i wont mention it agian.

Player Vision from thf forums(feel free to correct me):
-DPS DD
-Utility Roles
-TH

Issues with Player vision:
-DPS is tp spam, still gain tp at same rate despite multiple hits. If the idea is lower damage, more ws ---the tp system doesnt work this way.
-Utility on thf is minimal--- i already addressed above what hate control doesnt do. The tanks have better and more abilities for these anyway. As far as debuff(none since despoil doesnt work on nms) and aura steal isnt consistent enough to work.
War has better buffing for the party for gods sake. Utility outside of battle. Flee- useful. Lock picking nope and dont say that one door in reef. Steal- nope. Despoil- bad food buffs? nope.
-TH isnt enough----- the tp feed to proc is not worth the increase on major fights, isnt useful in most battlefields(chests), proc systems way outweigh meaning that certain jobs are better at drop rates. There is an early nebo post i think says it best.

The fact is we dont meet the dev teams vision atm. We need not only additions but major FIXES.

[Yugl]

That depends, what special kind of retard are you? Are you really trying to argue that TH'ing a mob is skill dependant?

Ironically, your buddies in this thread are a perfect example of why it is. Anything a melee has to do, a THF will have to do as well. This include very very basic stuff like PDT/MDT sets, TPing, WSing, and using JAs. Unlike these other melees, however, THF has to to position themselves properly for SA/TA, which supposedly improve the rate of TH enhancement. According to people whining in this thread, they apparently can't do it because of hate issues. So yes, according to the complainers in this thread, THF does take more skill (knowledge of enmity) than other melees.


OK, no you aren't, you are agreeing with me. Did you read that post you quoted?The post that you pointed to made the retarded assertion that skill determines the melee you bring and said that, unlike melee, determining your THF is by gear. This completely misses the fact that gear determines your damage. You cannot will more damage per hit if your gear is inferior. You cannot will more damage per weaponskill if your gear is inferior.



This is a fallacy. You don't get an equal comparison when playing with individuals.Equal comparison means DRG v DRG or WAR v WAR. Are you honestly trying to suggest no one has had to choose between two of the same class before?



You get the guy that maybe WS's at ~180% if he remembers to. Doesn't eat proper food. Might not have a clue how to land his procs clean. Does he have the combat skills leveled, with the weapons to trigger all the weaknesses his job can? Is he flexible? Does he know how to react to various situations? Does he even have PDT/MDT sets if things go south?Does the THF know how to handle capped enmity situations so he can SA properly? Does the THF even bother to TA? Do they even bother to position themselves properly? Note that these are treasure hunter enhancing. PDT/MDT applies to THF as well. Is your dagger skill leveled up to land TH? Does he have an evasion set for duo situations where needed? Does he know how to react to bad situations? What exactly are you trying to get at when most of these apply to THF as well. Quite frankly, anyone who does do what you call "skillful acts" is utterly stupid and will make as many mistakes (or more) trying to heighten TH on THF.


Obviously this is is gear dependant, but you are only making my point here. It's about multiple gear swaps for many different situations with the knowledge and skill to use them with appropriate timing. It is an active process that takes a bit of knowledge, skill, rare gear collection.

Applying TH is non of that. It is a passive trait. All the pieces are stupid easy to obtain. No one cares what you do, or what other gear you have. As long as you have TH6. You can literally main hand a THF knife, nothing in the offhand, be wearing nothing but the hands and feet and still do your job the exact same. You either have TH6 or you don't. Beyond that, a discussion of player skill never enters the equation for bringing TH.Maybe the old TH, but the new TH seems to branch from that concept entirely with new emphasis on SATA abuse. What even more interesting is that according to your logic, BRDs are in dire need of an upgrade as well. They only need roughly 3 pieces of gear to match a "well geared" BRD's marches and the rest is duration, which is irrelevant when you can just cast the song again. Prior to abyssea (And I only say this because I'm uncertain if it's still the case) BRDs bragged about how Elegy (Their most potent debuff) landed on most mobs with just Terra's staff. However, I think most people would agree that BRD is fine. Hence, I don't think the criteria you set up accurately captures the issue with THF.




THF was supreme in all aspects? When was this? Prior to abyssea, who, besides THF, reigned supreme at making items drop? No one.



Actually, they can both reach the -50% MDT cap with gear and shellra V so...no. They don't. The point of that was in response to the comment that "THF should not get updates and is fine because it is a defensive job." Which is not true.Read carefully bud. I said easier access. The number of MDT pieces for THF outweighs WAR.



This is why I think you aren't reading what is being written. No one is crying "overpowered" at WAR. That comparison I used to THF damage compared to other WAR DD can be used for any other DD. You would have to be blind to not see the number of posts directed against WAR.


Its just today the gap between a Good THF and a Good WAR has widened to a point where the THF is largely undermined as a DD and defaults to TH whore. Closing the gap a tad won't nerf other jobs or make them less desirable.

Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS. This one cannot apply to all melee (BST, and mob depending, DRG).


war getting the ability to force crit outside abyssea without a positional restriction is just wrong

I agree its complete bs that war gets everything and other jobs get ignored.So uh... no one is complaining about WAR huh?



In the DD department, we are not saying we want to be the best, or on top of the pile, or a heavy-DD or any herp a derp nonesense. What we HAVE been saying for quite a while now is that the gap is currently too large. Show me where I said THFs are looking to be the best DD. Having trouble finding that part? That's probably because I never said that. What I did say is that THF should remain at less than suboptimal damage. This means you need to stop using WAR as your example and compare the lesser tier DDs such as BST. Even your buddy RNG gets rocked in the DD department once we start stacking haste buffs.



Especially given that our enmity utility is not useful to anyone, from the response we just got, our steal abilities are going to stay useless because SE is afraid of them. And Treasure Hunter is going to remain marginalized due to Weakness trigger procs, and being given away to other jobs.TH only remains marginalized to the extent that the proc!! system remains relevant to content people do. Abyssea's proc!! system will soon favor TH as people begin to focus solely on Empyrean weapons. VW I already said is the bane for THF and suggested that THF be given the ability to affect casket rewards.


Actually THF was skewed towards parties with tanks, SATA lines, closing distortion skillchains and raping faces with......DAMAGE!!!!! YAY!!!!!! SATA damage and stacking WS was a MUCH bigger relative damage payoff than it is today. THF was a great DD for all of its early life.Yes, SE look at THF and gave their WS distortion property so they could be awesome DDs. That clearly didn't happen by chance. Know what THF did with those tanks? They managed enmity, so hey, you can get all the enmity quarks you need! The best part about THF as a DD was SATA, but that was merely because pDIF was ridiculous business for DDs back then. If anything, the abilities had more to do with lore than with a concerted effort towards THF's melee capabilities. The introduction of sub THF further marginalized their role as DD as DRKs and WAR came to dominate the SATA WS scene.


Going from the origional description of the job...SE described THF as a "stealthy attacker," that looks for the perfect opportunity to attack from behind and suprise its enemies.

And we've been over this about a million times on this forum. You are barking up a very wrong tree if you are trying to argue things like gilfinder, steal, despoil, mug, coffer picking to help your case. All of these things were taken away or made useless because SE is afraid of them. Whatever their "vision" for the job was then, it has most certainly changed.Do you not read? The entire reason we're reviewing those is because the person made the claim that THF is a DD because a majority of their Traits/JAs are centered towards DD. Turns out that's not the case though!

[Yugl]

I don't buy that you actually believe what you are saying. I feel like you are just here to argue. Accidentally making things drop is not the answer to a job being fun and in the end SEs first priority on all jobs needs to be making them fun to play. Yes it gets at least 1 THF involved in most group events but in most cases they have less fun than anyone else there because their "specialization" is standing around and their mastery of that specialization is measured only by a flip of a coin and the contents of a loot pool. You can't rationally compare that to being the best DD or the best healer or the best tank. It's just not the same. TH is not an excuse for the mediocrity of our damage and the near uselessness of almost all our JAs.
What I have said is where I think THF is realistically going. Statistically, having more THFs should improve drop rate, so where secure/timely victory is not of concern, THF provides more utility than any other DD in TH applicable situations. I don't know where you all get this notion of THF sitting around. THF's new system encourages melee; you all are just too into the LV75 era to recognize this. In fact, THF is the only member I'll allow to melee against risky targets such as Pantokrator and it's precisely because of the new TH system. Any other melee (Perhaps there for blue!! on a non-blunt proc) I'll tell to gtfo and after they've proced blue!! on the mob. Their specialty is measured by improving the odds of gear dropping such that you can do the coin analogy rather than a 1/52 card analogy. What you fail to realize is that there is only one best DD, one best nuker, one best TH, one best support, and one best healer. What about the other 15 classes that don't have this luxury? Also, the game revolves around obtaining gear. It doesn't matter if you do 90000000 damage if that means you floor drop rates. It doesn't matter if your healing practically makes them invincible if you floor drop rates. This reality is actually the sole reason why classes that would normally benefit greatly from abyssea, such as DRG, haven't played a primary role.

[Alaik]

I don't know if I should just ignore this guy for being so silly, or assume he's trolling.

PS Mister Frank, that's my thread. See how the signature now says Alaik? :P

[FrankReynolds]

PS Mister Frank, that's my thread. See how the signature now says Alaik? :P

I didnt really feel like checking to see if I could link a <div id="Mypost"> tag to this forum, so i just linked the whole thread. guess i shoulda just quoted the whole wall of text i wrote.

Oh, and for the people that keep saying that Thiefs are now allowed to dd all they want in order to increase the drop rate....

NO. You just get to run in when SA/TA are up and hit the mob once, then run back out and wait for the timers. You will reach max procs with just that and avoid the TP spam. No TPing on NMs with no subtle blow thief.

[Insaniac]

This means you need to stop using WAR as your example and compare the lesser tier DDs such as BST.

I lol'd. BST was never a job meant for party play. They just, in the last couple years, started shifting it over to being able to participate in party exp. If we're comparing THF to BST we might as well start comparing NIN to BLM. If you wanna talk about RNG we can talk about how it can proc TH, is getting subtle blow and enmity tools, and takes no AoE damage to do any of it. At the same time they are actually there to do damage as well. In the fights you want RNGs for they are gonna do more damage than a WAR does over the course of the battle and they are going to require far less support to do so.

[noodles355]

Read carefully bud. I said easier access. The number of MDT pieces for THF outweighs WAR. I was fairly sure it was the other way around.
Both get:
Coral harness set
Merman's Earrings/Rings
Dark Rings
Shadow Ring
Twilight Torque

Thief gets:
Lore set
Denali Hands
Avalon Breastplate

Warrior gets:
Coral scale set
Askar feet
Valhalla breastplate

Looks pretty even but war also has:
nirenschuz
Valhalla helm

Warrior also gets these for MDB:
Medb Gauntlets
Noesis Helm

Edit: I also forgot to add the Iron Ram hauberk set. Warrior probably has one of the best selections of MDT and MDB gear in the game.

[noodles355]

Interesting to see that 90% of the responses to Camate's thread are negative. I bet when they sent him to post in the forum they were all smug and thinking "that'll shut them up for a while!". My oh my, how wrong they were. I hope they're starting to realise just how unhappy the thief playerbase is becoming.

I feel sorry for camate, as many have said: you're just the messenger. But as a messenger, I hope you relay back to the dev team just what a load of absolute garbage they are throwing at us.

We believe making Aura Steal a separate ability would be over-powered.Absolute bullshit. Steal doesn't work on 99% of NMs. You would go from:
Using Aura Steal, and not being able to use Steal
to
Using Aura Steal, and still not using steal because it doesn't hold anything anyway.

People use Aura-Steal 90% for the dispel. Not the absorb. Bard and Red Mage have sub-30 second dispels. Blue has 2 sub-2minute dispel/absorbs. If you think absorbing all these supreme mob buffs (what are they by the way? Last I checked you can't steal 2hrs. All I can think of that's awesome is JOL's Boost) is overpowered then change the absorb properties of the ability.

It's nice to see you ignored the fact that Steal and Despoil are 90% worthless abilities due to the fact that important monsters don't hold shit. Despoil? Well as a NM doesn't have anything to steal, we can't inflict a status. Even if we could, what kind of stratagy is going to include a 5 minute recast random status ailment?

What is the point of upping the success rate of steal if there's still nothing actually worthwhile to steal?? (outside of plat beastcoins and dyna currancy)
If you want to avoid the beastcoin fiasco of the past, how about you take one of the supremely great ideas from this very forum and make steal steal tempory items??

I mean seriously, what the hell is up with this?
You don't want to add useful things to steal to avoid the gold beastcoin fiasco again.
You want to up the success rate of steal, which is only used on dynamis mobs for currancy.
So you don't want to steal good things, but you do want to steal good things.

I sware the only logical thing in your post was that you didn't give Thf Subtle Blow because it gets En-Treasure Hunter.

[Karbuncle]

A few issues with your argument:
1. If we agree with SE's original plan for THF, I don't see how it's a problem to maintain that track

Said that already, but reading I've come to terms with said original Plan. But said Original plan also included DD, which we are not considered, While I'm not as upset about this as i used to be, i still see why THFs would be upset.


2. People invited people for TH purposes, why is that not listed?

I was talking about Exp-Party Situations. I acknowledge its uses end-game. My argument was an addendum to when i mentioned THF not being prepared for its end-game role throughout the game.


5. The RDM community believed they would be on track as melee RDM, should we then give into their demands as well because they "believed this is how SE would develop them"?

I don't know what RDM has been advertised as. If from the beginning they have been advertised as "Combat ready" or some form of "Uses their weapons" then it would technically fall in line with a vision SE had, and me denying that would be hypocritical.

We were advertized as Stealthy Attackers, We're Treasure Hounds at this point. I'm okay with a vision including Enmity control so long as its done right.


6. THF's abilities were actually more prominent as a sub rather than as a main, which means SE should focus on features of THF as a sub right?

This is a lie, SA and TA were always more powerful as a Main job. Your argument would be valid if SA and TA received DEX/AGI bonuses while subbed still, or if Trick Attack subbed had Assassin qualities.

DRG jumps work better with a Great Axe, and as a SAM, because it gives those jobs more TP, DRG should be sub only too now? Dodge worked better for THF and NIN, Boost worked better for jobs with higher base attack power, They should focus MNK on support job too?

That argument is silly, even if it was correct, which its not.


That really makes no sense. TH is irrelevant for XP mobs, but THFs need XP nonetheless. What else were they going to do in PTs? If they expected enmity control, then how is the community's original expectation different from SE's plans? The truth is that even if one considered how underdeveloped the TH system was back then, the playerbase made arguments for THF DD, not in the name of damage, but in the name of TH. Remember the beliefs about TH approximating the damage done by THF? Remember the beliefs about THF needing to get the last hit? Even though these were false, they were beliefs and TH bolstering strategies upstarted by the community.]

Early on we weren't the best, but we were darn good DDs, Today the gap has continued to widen and it feels THF is standing still.

I'm not sure if you even believe what you're saying, I don't think Ignorance is a good argument. "Belief THFs needed to get the last hit?" yes, This is ignorance, and only idiots believed it.

How is this remotely related to us wanting improvements to the job that go above and beyond TH in whatever way?


Then make plans to develop the TH system further (And SE has already started that). For example, make TH apply to caskets and so forth. I've seen very few "ideas for SE" that compliment this notion.

The reason you probably don't see a lot of suggestions like that is because they still don't help THF at all in endgame content. We want more involvement outside of that. Even if that means Enmity control in a meaningful way.

We just want to participate more than 2 times per minute, whatever that means or involves. "Melee for TH upgrade" is not great, You'll end up eatin AoEs, being an MP sponge, and feeding the mob full of TP, beyond that the chance to upgrade is incredibly low after the first upgrade


EQ was successful prior to WoW and given the similarity in FFXI's and EQ grinding system, the connection has been made. Quite frankly, the role of additional debuffs should go to other melee whom neither have TH nor will compete with WAR. It's unreasonable to demand that WAR, BST, DRK, SAM, DRG, RNG, MNK, BLU, and NIN DD at the same capacity. Some of them will ultimately have to default for suboptimal positions, and in doing so, will need features that make them worth inviting. Siphoning RNG into the TH realm may not be a bad idea, but it will not work for the rest of melees. For those that will be difficult to buff to the realm of top DD, it is more practical to have them function as supportive melees, such that we have...

Who says THF cant be updated and those jobs? How many Defense down abilities/WS/spells do we have? Evasion down? Attack up? Accuracy up? You can give THF one thing and still be able to give it to another DD in another way. Just because a THF gets the ability to do xxx doesn't mean another job can't get a meaningful buff in the same area.

If you want to use Everquest as an example, Rogue class was the best DPS class that was "in some cases was outclassed by Berserker(WAR)"

It had a lot of abilities related to lock picking and disarming traps, but also a lot of Support/damage (like Poisoning the Mob, Intimidation/etc) and was a solid capable DD. It could do all that, Why is asking for it in FFXI insane?


People rejected players for not having ACC rings way back. People rejected others for not having Turban during the ToAU era.

This is true, but you're lying to everyone, including yourself, if you honestly believe this kind of thing happened as often as a THF being declined for not having TH4. Shouts actually including along the lines of "BRD, WHM, TH4", We weren't a job, We're a number.

Even you know THF was judged far more strictly and unfairly based on TH, This here is another reason I don't think you believe the crap your saying.


And without acceptance of soft cap TH, you have the duty of pumping TH from start to finish.

So my duty is to stare at a mob for 55 seconds each minute, riding the SA/TA Recast. that doesn't sound exciting. we just want more involvement. Melee is not an option as i told you above on any meaningful endgame content, We can bring up abyssea where I admit THF is glorious, But outside on Harder content like Voidwatch, our melee is more of a detriment than an improvement.


Shell/Prot V is the same for WHM as it is for RDM and SCH (AoE version is what's different). Any sub WHM (And soon sub RDM) member can toss out hastes. None of this response means anything with regard to the central point. If TH becomes irrelevant, then so does THF. However, this is true for the aforementioned classes. If healing is irrelevant, then WHM is is too. If melee damage is irrelevant (Think manaburns), then so is WAR. That's the price of specialization, but as you can see by the examples, specialization is much more significant in this game.

A good argument.


Ok, lets try this with other classes then.

WHM acknowledges its superior healing capabilities and general enhancements, but would like more than that.
WAR acknowledges its superior DD capabilities, but would like more than that.

Okay? Let them have it. Why is it you people seem to think because we're asking for a THF update means we're asking all other jobs stop getting updates?


And guess how many Ambusher's Hoses that person wants to get after obtaining theirs? Compare to how many buds a person starting X Empyrean items wants after obtaining 1-2.

How is this relevant at all? Stop changing your arguments. You said something regarding ambushers hose, I said "If you had to pick between a THF and a MNK for Ambusher's Hose, you'd chose the MNK", and you would, and i was right, Which is why you decided to change the argument to Empyrean weapons.

I know Empyrean Weapon Upgrade items are vastly effected by TH, That was not the argument. Everyone reading this knows TH is the best thing for Empyrean Weapon upgrades.


What I find interesting is how several THFs talk about proc!! undermining the role of THF in abyssea, but don't make that association with DDs. Brews and Atmas undermine melee equipment and MP management (Hello SCH!), but no mention of that. Why's that?

Because Procs and Brews are entirely different things.

Edit: and to be perfectly clear, If they gave us some update to TH that truly made us participate in the fight more than twice per minute, I'd take it too. If they gave us meaningful Enmity control abilities, I'd take it, If they gave us a DD boost, I'd take it.

I'd take anything that helps THF as long as it actually HELPS them. Giving us Intimidation would not help us, improving Despoil and Steal would not help us (unless done right, Which according to them, Dividing aura Steal is far to broken, so i severely doubt any update to steal/despoil will be "right).

Even you have to see how depressing it is looking at what we have in store, and the responses recently basically describing Aura Steal and Steal as too powerful to adjust, and what that says for the future of the job.

Edit2: Also to the Reps i know reading this. I don't hate you. Its not your fault the Development Team thinks THF is too powerful to adjust, and that We're doomed to suck ass because RMT abuse our Abilities, so we're punished for it. Like Fishing, and Gardening.

[Laphine]

"Melee for TH upgrade" is not great, You'll end up eatin AoEs, being an MP sponge, and feeding the mob full of TP, beyond that the chance to upgrade is incredibly low after the first upgrade

I can't really agree with this karb. I do think this is great; a step in the right direction. Melee is the second best thing we can provide to a party and something completely underestimated. Tying them was a very nice move. Also, THF is a tp feeding machine (and will stay like that it seem lol), and if ppl want drops, they will have to accept the trade-off. The only real problem for me is that these boosts doesn't seem to be as effective as the traits, which makes them not as necessary and the same goes to our melee. So imo what we have is a great concept but with an implementation that is okish at best.

[Karbuncle]

I can't really agree with this karb. I do think this is great; a step in the right direction. Melee is the second best thing we can provide to a party and something completely underestimated. Tying them was a very nice move. Also, THF is a tp feeding machine (and will stay like that it seem lol), and if ppl want drops, they will have to accept the trade-off. The only real problem for me is that these boosts doesn't seem to be as effective as the traits, which makes them not as necessary and the same goes to our melee. So imo what we have is a great concept but with an implementation that is okish at best.

Well the problem is, Try meleeing on a mob like Voidwrought, You'll never upgrade TH and you'll like get 1 shotted by his first AoE. On Easier mobs, and in Abyssea, its not a big deal, But on soon to come strong End-game Content its where im worried.

Plus, as a THF You must know, You can solo a mob from 100% to 0% and you'll likely never see more than 1 TH upgrade from just meleeing, the rate is horrendous.. Any THF would be better off not meleeing, and sitting back using SA and TA when the timers are up, out of AoE range, not TP spamming the mob, and not being an MP sink

And most people think so too. (Again not in Abyssea/Weak shit, but on truly harder content).

[Melphina]

Camate
I understand that you are just a messenger, but I don't believe the devs realize that their view of how thief should be played is not how the players view thief. You are living in fear of RMT so badly that you nerfed almost every selling point of the thief job. Your idealistic views of thief have been implemented in a functionally flawed way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
The flaws within "the stealthy pickpocket"

Your devs believe thief should be "a stealthy pickpocket", however my only "pickpocket" abilities are steal and mug. Mug only works on beastmen and steals about 80-100 gil, or a few K from Nms once every fifteen minutes. I can average 3K cruor in a few minutes inside abyssea which nets me 7K, and many players are walking round with millions and tens of millions of gil in their pockets. Mug is worthless.

Aura steal requires me to spend my precious tier 2 merits to even unlock it, and I chose 5/5 feint and 5/5 assassin's charge because aura steal doesn't play out in practice as well as it does in paper. If by stealing a mobs "raw stats" you mean dispelling a random buff on a mob that uses many buffs, then ok? Aura steal almost never absorbs the buff you want, so instead of dispelling dread or ice spikes I'll probably hit the mobs protect/shell, and unless I sink five merits into aura steal I often won't absorb the buff. Buffs like ice spikes or metallic guard are worthless because I am using utsusemi with naturally high evasion to not get hit in the first place. there are literally very few mobs with aura stealable buffs that I care about.

Despoil is terrible. It only works on trash mobs which die in 20 seconds anyway. The random debuffs are worthless because trash mobs ar enever dangerous. Why would I want to lower the magic attack bonus on a hill lizard anyway? the thing doesn't even nuke.......

I will bold this section because it seems your devs have forgotten they implemented it. Thieves CAN'T steal a beastmans treasure pool and use hide then repeat the trend. You nerfed us in 2006/07 already when you made respawned mobs the identical mob that got despawned. If a thief steals a mobs beastcoin then flees and despawns him his will respawn as the EXACT same mob, and his beastcoin will be missing until somebody kills him. Furthermore, hide only works on sight ONLY mobs, and 90% of mobs track by sound/scent or use truesound/sight tracking.

You are so terrified of RMT that you can't fulfill the vision of the stealthy pickpocket. You're afraid if you do people may actually make money with thief....which ironically is the very vision you set for us.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The flawed masters of enmty control.

You claim thieves are the masters of enmity control. I'll give you a hint. We're not. And I'll explain why below.

First and foremost the hate system itself is not conducive to our control. Paladins can cap their hate on HNMs and have been doing so since 2007. Taking 25% hate from ONE person once a minute or 50% once every 5 minutes is laughable when the tanks are capped on hate and melees are controlling their pummeling on the mob.

Secondly, you tout trick attack for its hate control. guess what, trick attack's enmity generation is only as good as the damage we can create with it, and if we're fighting HNMs that damage is... not much. I'm sorry, but when mages are nuking for 1500-2500 damage and melees are weaponskilling (often) for 2-3K damage my once a minute trick attacked weaponskills don't do crud for hate control.

Next, collaborater and accomplice need to be usable from MAXIMUM range. You slapped us in the face by expending accompolater by almost nothing. If I am supposed to be meleeing on the front lines to trick attack the tank while running to the back lines to grab hate, should the amount of hate I steal get me the mobs attention he will leave the front lines to come and get me. This results in his AoEs devastating the back line ranks. I have KILLED mages before because when I ran to the rear lines to accomplice them the mob chased me down and used an AoE which hit every back line caster and wiped my group in almost an instant. If you want me to be meleeing up front AND taking take from the back lines, I need to be able to steal that hate WITHOUT leaving my position alongside the tank. Anything less than maximum spellcasting range risks moving the mob and causing casualties.

The REALITY of thief is it doesn't control hate at all. We as players don't use tanks when fighting trash mobs, we use utsusemi and third eye (trash mobs never have dangerous attacks and we always have support anyway). Whenever we are fighting a NM we have a tank who will cap hate naturally, and because stealing enmity repeatedly can cap my own hate I have killed mages by running close enough to get in range to collaborater them only to see the NM charging at me and demolishing our support in one fell swoop. Trick attack doesn't cause enough damage to control hate, it is also worthless.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Summary:

I have played thief for six years and it's my favorite job. Thief is a lot of fun in an experience party setting, but when we're fighting HNMs thief is the least fun job to be on. There is a problem when alliances will fight HNms with two or three paladins, five or six black mages, three white and red mages, .... they'd cram in dozens of warriors and samurais if they could fit them, but there will only ever be ONE single thief. Two thieves is always too many when you're battling HNMs.

The HNM role of thief is to hit the monster once to apply treasure hunter and then sit the rest of the fight out because we feed too much TP to justify being allowed to engage the mob. Our damage at HNM is pathetic and we cause more problems meleeing a HNM by making them spam TP attacks than we do any good with hate control (remember, trick attack weaponskills SUCK on hnms in comparison to the damage wars/sams/blms are creating, so it doesn't control crud). It is NOT fun to just stand there on the sidelines WATCHING!!!! your alliance kill the mob only to be swapped in at 5% to hit the mob once, but that is the role thief plays out in HNM. We don't deal enough damage, we feed a LOT of TP, and our hate control tactics are worthless because the hate system is set up in a way that we CAN'T control anything that the paladins aren't already taking care of themselves.

I am going to reiterate a point a colleague of mine on ZAM wrote.

Banalaty wrote

TH is NOT an excuse for poor job design. Stop using it as a crutch to not do anything.

S-E, you need to read.... and LISTEN to your playerbase. Thief is not that bad to play in an experience setting, although it's farther away from your pickpocket model than your devs can ever imagine. However when you're fighting HNMs thief is the ass of the FFXI world... we are the joke in the corner. Our HNM mechanics are broken, and we need to either be able to do better damage so that it justifys our meleeing, or be granted A LOT of subtle blow so we can actually engage a mob without it spamming TP attacks out the ass. Accompoloater is not at all the reason thieves are invited to HNMs. I've been shunted into the treasure hunter whore ONLY role at HNms for years now, and I'm tired of it. If level 99 HNM is more of the same old then I refuse to participate in your end game battles. I will never again be sidelined for hours doing nothing because I'm regarded as "too week to do battle" I just won't play the game.

[Alaik]

Above is what Melphina wrote.

This is what the Dev's translate it as: "Hm, she's right. They do use utsusemi and evasion, so they don't need ice spikes. Let's nerf their evasion and utsusemi for Thief only so they can use them."

[Laphine]

don't jinx it!


Well the problem is, Try meleeing on a mob like Voidwrought, You'll never upgrade TH and you'll like get 1 shotted by his first AoE. On Easier mobs, and in Abyssea, its not a big deal, But on soon to come strong End-game Content its where im worried.

Plus, as a THF You must know, You can solo a mob from 100% to 0% and you'll likely never see more than 1 TH upgrade from just meleeing, the rate is horrendous.. Any THF would be better off not meleeing, and sitting back using SA and TA when the timers are up, out of AoE range, not TP spamming the mob, and not being an MP sink

And most people think so too. (Again not in Abyssea/Weak shit, but on truly harder content).

Hmm i think one-shot is going to be an issue for most melees lol. On TH not upgrading, maybe it is currently related to damage? Because even on abyssea i have a hard time upgrading it on stronger stuff. Or maybe, more reasonably, it's just as passive to resist as other en-effects. The rate on normal melee is indeed horrendous >.<, yeah, more of a reason to ppl make thf only go in to sa/ta. More flaws added to the table.

[Karbuncle]

don't jinx it!



Hmm i think one-shot is going to be an issue for most melees lol. On TH not upgrading, maybe it is currently related to damage? Because even on abyssea i have a hard time upgrading it on stronger stuff. Or maybe, more reasonably, it's just as passive to resist as other en-effects. The rate on normal melee is indeed horrendous >.<, yeah, more of a reason to ppl make thf only go in to sa/ta. More flaws added to the table.

Well yah, on the "1 shot" thing it would be a problem for any melee >_>, its the reason on stronger stuff like that its generally a "Meditate > WS" fight. Which is why THF would be demoted to SA/TA timers. Which is actually more involved than the other DD on most occasions in Voidwatch.

I think it is related to damage in some way, When they originally released it they did say during the SA and TA part "Further chance to upgrade through the damage of SA and TA" (paraphrasing). Could simply have been trying to clarify it would upgrade if the hits connect not when using the ability.

It was a wonderful idea for TH, and did level the ground between THFs (i.E a THF with TH4/5 could upgrade as much as a THF with TH6, the TH6 THF just had a head start), But the low proc rate makes it less of a reason to melee, and more of a "bonus" on mobs you'd already be meleeing. It doesn't create a reason to melee, just adds a bonus to situations you'd already melee in.

Its a step in the right direction, Hopefully the Updates they have for THF really look into what the job needs.

[Alaik]

Question: Does anyone reading this thread read Japanese better than Google? I'm curious to see how they're taking it. Google translate can show general displeasure for sure, but there's alot left to be desired...

[Insaniac]

What I have said is where I think THF is realistically going. Statistically, having more THFs should improve drop rate, so where secure/timely victory is not of concern, THF provides more utility than any other DD in TH applicable situations. I don't know where you all get this notion of THF sitting around. THF's new system encourages melee; you all are just too into the LV75 era to recognize this. In fact, THF is the only member I'll allow to melee against risky targets such as Pantokrator and it's precisely because of the new TH system. Any other melee (Perhaps there for blue!! on a non-blunt proc) I'll tell to gtfo and after they've proced blue!! on the mob. Their specialty is measured by improving the odds of gear dropping such that you can do the coin analogy rather than a 1/52 card analogy. What you fail to realize is that there is only one best DD, one best nuker, one best TH, one best support, and one best healer. What about the other 15 classes that don't have this luxury? Also, the game revolves around obtaining gear. It doesn't matter if you do 90000000 damage if that means you floor drop rates. It doesn't matter if your healing practically makes them invincible if you floor drop rates. This reality is actually the sole reason why classes that would normally benefit greatly from abyssea, such as DRG, haven't played a primary role.

I had written a much longer response to this but it got bagooshed when I hit reply and the forums were in maintenance. So, I'll just say these 2 things.

1) Your comments on TH encouraging THF melee show that you don't understand it enough to participate in an argument about it. If anything the new TH system encourages THF to not melee because it uses up valuable mob HP that should be saved for the only semi-reliable ways to proc TH, SA and TA. Luckily most people have realized the difference between TH6 and TH10 is so small it's not even worth spending the extra time to get in most fights. Also, using Pankrator as an example is flawed. Abyssea refresh and HP allow for this sort of thing. Have a THF full time melee on a T3/4 voidwalker and see how long they last and how quickly their WHMs MP is gone.

2) While you are mostly correct about the game revolving around gear you're forgetting the symbiosis of having fun while obtaining and using that gear. It's extremely important. Without it we have no game. Playing THF in any TH whore situation is plain and simple not fun.

[Insaniac]

I think it is related to damage in some way.

I am of the belief that it works similar to the debuff on status bolts. For example some mobs because of their elemental alignment are resistant to acid bolt procs. I've run in to the same thing with TH procs on mobs that are extremely resistant to magic or status ailments. SA and TA would just increase the "magic acc" of the en-TH effect. Could just be my imagination.

[Byrth]

I am of the belief that it works similar to the debuff on status bolts. For example some mobs because of their elemental alignment are resistant to acid bolt procs. I've run in to the same thing with TH procs on mobs that are extremely resistant to magic or status ailments. SA and TA would just increase the "magic acc" of the en-TH effect. Could just be my imagination.

I'm pretty sure this is correct, or at least there's something more to it. I duoed Temperance with myself a few months ago (DNC/NIN + THF/WHM) and could not get TH to proc at all.

[Karbuncle]

If thats the case I would laugh and laugh...

"Mobs resistant to magic? sucks for TH upgrades!"

[Laphine]

time to full time macc gear yo~

[Insaniac]

Hey it's a light-based en-effect so we should probably start SAing in CHR gear right? OH SNAP!! The CHR on THF relic comes full circle!!

[Byrth]

Well, keep in mind that some additional effects are non-magic related. For instance, Excal's additional effect does Slashing damage. I don't know what Jinx Discus's additional effect is, but I managed to curse an Imp yesterday. It could be that the additional effect for TH is just Piercing damage. Also keep in mind that the "full proc rate" is probably not anything close to 100% and likely varies based on the current TH level.

[Insaniac]

That is possible but it would make slightly less sense because those are connected to a specific weapon. You can proc TH with a staff if you want to.

[Byrth]

Yeah, but I know I SA/TA'd Jailer of Temperance quite a bit in both Piercing (daggers) and Blunt (H2H) mode and failed to get a proc. He may be proccable now that he takes at least 12.5% damage from everything, but that just loses us a testing subject.

[Babekeke]

Question: Does anyone reading this thread read Japanese better than Google? I'm curious to see how they're taking it. Google translate can show general displeasure for sure, but there's alot left to be desired...

Someone did explain this somewhere around page 15 I think. Basically, they have very similar views to ours:
Some extra damage, but not to make us on par with the sole DDs;
If we're going to control enmity, make the JAs useful for such;
Don't want to be just TH whores.

[noodles355]

That was an interpretation from google translate iirc.

[Karbuncle]

That was an interpretation from google translate iirc.

No, Another fella came in (I'm assuming he is JP) and translated a bunch for us.

[Alaik]

It was before Camate's response as well. Of course I'm assuming that the reps didn't just respond to the NAs, and posted what Camate said on the JP boards as well.

The translation I'm wanting is their thoughts about aura steal being "overpowered", etc, etc.

[Sasaraixx]

It was before Camate's response as well. Of course I'm assuming that the reps didn't just respond to the NAs, and posted what Camate said on the JP boards as well.

The translation I'm wanting is their thoughts about aura steal being "overpowered", etc, etc.

I speak Japanese and went over and took a peak at the JP Thief thread. They are pretty much saying what you guys are. I saw one comment that mentioned aura steal and it asked "how can a job ability that you can use once every five minutes be overpowered?" There were also complaints about not being able to steal anything and asking at least to be able to steal temporary items from NMs.

Some posters wanted more information on Collaborator and Accomplice, but others said that Thief needs more important changes than those two abilities. There was unhappiness with the way TH upgrades and disappointment that you were not given Subtle Blow because of the change to TH. I also saw comments about not being able to do anything outside of SA/TA and people wondering if the development team understands how many players are very angry with the way Thief is being handled.

I'm at work, so I can't spend too much time on the forums, but if you'd like to know something else in particular and I take a peak again later today.

[Alaik]

That would be nice Sasa.

[Nala]

its good to know the thief community is largely of one mind on the direction SE wants to take us, and on the utility of LOLSTEAL/AURASTEAL/DESPOIL.

[Alaik]

Being unified is something that's relatively new for thieves, but we'll see if it does any good. I'm sure that it's also trans-continental will help as well. If JPs are asking for the same stuff as NAs and EUs, I dare say SE is more likely to take all three seriously.

[Zyla420]

or they'll be just as stubborn as usual and implement things we don't want at all, cause it's "their vision" for how they think a job should be played. though i'm srsly hoping this won't be the case...

[Nebo]

Honestly though, this is nothing new.

How long have we been offering feedback? Long before these forums ever existed.

There is no indication that the decision makers are getting an unfiltered version of the very strong negative feedback that the playerbase is offering regarding these fundamental THF issues, or that they care to listen to us at all. For them to say something like "we fear that THFs will just steal and hide from monsters again" Is a perfect indication of how out of touch they are.....this has not been possible for many many years due to the changes they made to steal long ago. They have a vision of THF that simply does not exist anywhere else but their minds. The climate of FFXI is very very different than they are imagining.

I really thought these forums would be the communication vehicle to change all that, but this is just more of the same. The decision makers appear to be just as intentionally out of touch with the playerbase as ever. Even with this direct communication line.

The community team deosn't seem encouraged or empowered engage in conversations about these things. Instead they just make broad announcements whenever they are permitted to speak on something. Even these "announcenemts" we get are really far too seldom to make the posters feel like they aren't just typing into the ether. HOw long have these foums been up and running and it has taken this long for someone to post in the THF forums? That's just silly.

Until Cammate posted here, there was no indication that the community team reads (or cares) about the job forums at all.

Edit: Although it looks like they are trying to kill FFXI off with all this retarded billing changes as well. That might just be the last nail in the coffin for me. I'm not going through all this hastle for "Aurasteal is overpowered."

[Nala]

this may be a silly question but wasn't there a developer change out in the last few years? reason i ask (partly cause i cant remember, i've been here again gone again last few years due to my job) is it seems as if the dev team doesn't seem to understand the mechanics behind the game.

making statements about steal/hide being overpowered when the items that originally caused that line of thought have lost considerable value not to mention that its a strategy that only works on a very small portion of monsters AND you have to kill it afterwards to ensure you can steal again, they also have failed to add more/new items to steal to relevant content.

also various comments from the dev team on other jobs and their issues such as pup, it may just be that we play the damn game and have a better understanding of the fundamental issues however such comments seem totally uniformed...

considering they want to adjust the way we play our job they ought to be as familiar with the jobs they are adjusting, probably too much to ask but basically the dev's ought to "walk a mile in our shoes." That goes for every job though.

[Babekeke]

basically the dev's ought to "walk a mile in our shoes."

Reminds me of a good saying I once saw:

"Before criticising someone you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticise them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes" :D

[Lovehatehero]

Thf's will never be top DD's, get over it. An already well geared, smart thf can already out DD most(non-emp) jobs in abyssea, and can keep up well outside( even at 75 i was still parsing well against sam's & wars...well at xp mobs XD). In the sense of endgame, thf will ALWAYS hold the TH whore role, spike damage through SA&TA, and lolhate control. Thf was never made to do more to NMs than the other DD's. A lot of you people just want YOUR job to be the best job at everything. Get real. Want to do massive damage? GO lvl war get a ukon. Want to tank? Level Nin, or Pld? lol. You want a veristile job that can DD well( not the best, but well) tank moderately well( great in abyssea), and provide a lil bonus to your loot pool? There's thf. Yes the dev's Vision of how they see the job, imo, is a little off. Steal fixes/tweaks this late in the game, honestly, are just a waist of the Devs time to figure out. And our time to even listen to. But it is what it is. You can cry "omg war get forced crit ; ; or omg dnc get triple att( though I really dont like this, one thing that seemed to ALWAYS set thf apart.) But thf, how it is( except maybe a tweak to the TH proc/usefulness of higher TH procs) is pretty damn good how it is. Honestly, it just seems like a lot of the player base just wants all jobs( ie Their MAIN job) to be able to rape everything solo and call it day. Get real.

[Karbuncle]

Thf's will never be top DD's, get over it.

No one has ever in this entire thread asked that.


An already well geared, smart thf can already out DD most(non-emp) jobs in abyssea

We all know that, no one has ever disputed this. Abyssea ends.


and can keep up well outside( even at 75 i was still parsing well against sam's & wars...well at xp mobs XD).

well, Exp mobs are generally trash. Its endgame HNM level content where THF failed.


In the sense of endgame, thf will ALWAYS hold the TH whore role spike damage through SA&TA, and lolhate control.

Is it sad that unless we have a Relic/Empyrean, our Spike Damage through SATA is generally lower than another jobs WS? Back at 75 it was like this too for some jobs. Always felt if THF was going to have just 1 thing, It'd be highest spike damage. We dont even own that right anymore..


Thf was never made to do more to NMs than the other DD's. A lot of you people just want YOUR job to be the best job at everything. Get real.

See my first point. Did you even read the thread? no one in this entire thread has asked for THF to be the best DD. Ever. In fact most of us have simply asked for small updates like Dual Wield IV and Subtle Blow.

Dual Wield ~III/IV would allow us to /WAR for DD situations and help our DPS considerably over /NIN.


Want to do massive damage? GO lvl war get a ukon.

We dont want to do massive damage.


Want to tank? Level Nin, or Pld?

We dont want to tank.


lol. You want a veristile job that can DD well( not the best, but well) tank moderately well( great in abyssea), and provide a lil bonus to your loot pool? There's thf.

THF is far from Versitile, In any endgame content, most THFs in good LS are demoted to at this point, "Use SA and TA to try and upgrade TH, don't feed the mob TP, go away" TH whores. They don't tank moderately well at all on anything tough like Voidwatch or real content.

As many of us have already Admitted, Treasure Hunter is our one redeeming quality, and its a very very good ability, We just want more activity during a battle. Waiting for our SA/TA Timers to come up is not fun. (Note: We know some other jobs might have it worse off, Whos to say they can't get updates too? No one)

Really, I'm not even so much concerned with damage anymore, if SE is hellbent on keeping us Utility, I just want some GOOD utility. I noticed Bay going in threads responding to a lot of "i wants" etc, Maybe he'll come here and tell me if he took my Steal/despoil/Mug JA/JT suggestions i posted and what responses they got, I'd really like to know :X


Yes the dev's Vision of how they see the job, imo, is a little off. Steal fixes/tweaks this late in the game, honestly, are just a waist of the Devs time to figure out.

Whats every worse about this is they actually said Aura steal/Steal were too powerful to adjust. Because apparently they think Steal > hide still works on mobs.


But it is what it is. You can cry "omg war get forced crit ; ; or omg dnc get triple att But thf, how it is, is pretty damn good how it is. Honestly, it just seems like a lot of the player base just wants all jobs( ie Their MAIN job) to be able to rape everything solo and call it day. Get real.

Again, no sarcasm, Did you even read the thread? not a single suggestion in this entire thread is remotely related to what you're talking about.

Yes, we're PO'd WAR may get a Forced-Crit ability, But we don't know recast/etc, So most people have moved on

On DNC's "Triple attack ability", If its a Flourish it'll be useless because (I'm going off Byrth here) They won't stack with other Flourish and Building/Climatic(I forget which?) are better by miles.

On the last part, We dont want our job to be super, seriously, Does anyone read before posting. We just want our job to be better. THF is not "okay", Our jobs only marketable skill is TH. We're not good or "good enough" DDs, Most groups degrade a THF to a TH mule (A.K.A Someones mule with TH Gear) who do nothing but hit the mob then afk, Or degrade them to out-side party, getting invited in the last % to TH the mob, Or (More relevant today) Use SA/TA > hit the mob > go away and stop feeding TP.

On Abyssea and Weak-sh*t content we're a Bit better off, Its the much harder end-game content that worries me. Yes, 1 THF will always have a place in the alliance, But that THF with any good LS will likely be a Nakid Mule with a Knife, a pair of Gloves, and some Boots, and i won't be allowed to come THF because we already have a TH whore.

Look, I'm not even asking for DD buffs anymore, I just want our jobs Vision (Enmity control) to be worthwhile. I really want the Dev team to think out what they're doing to THF and what it means for a party situation. I really hope they're in touch with THF on this one.

And i want that vision to be based off skill/Gear (Hint: Right now our Worth is based off a Knife, Gloves, and Boots), Otherwise without a doubt a TH mule will arise in most Linkshells, and I'll be locked out my favorite job unless i want to join another LS.

[Zirael]

Honestly though, this is nothing new.
Until Cammate posted here, there was no indication that the community team reads (or cares) about the job forums at all.

Edit: Although it looks like they are trying to kill FFXI off with all this retarded billing changes as well. That might just be the last nail in the coffin for me. I'm not going through all this hastle for "Aurasteal is overpowered."

Regarding jobs no one cares about, SCH responses were appended to general discussion, because dedicated SCH manifesto topic got missed (=haven't been spotted/read at all up until now). At least THF replies were posted in the job forums, so we're not the total bottom feeders yet.

Also, regarding Aura Steal being too overpowered, I've just remembered this:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Sagasinger
Too good for THF (and BLU, but that's another story).

[Laphine]

Steal fixes/tweaks this late in the game, honestly, are just a waist of the Devs time to figure out

Really? Steal if the very foundation of the job. When i think of THF, i think steal. Without it, why would we even be called thieves anyway? Of course they should fix steal. If they don't want THF to be a DD, steal IS the way to go. For me, it certainly is the easiest path give us utility.

[Nala]

You have not been playing the game the last 4 years then have you? steal serves no purpose, if they think aura steal is overpowered there is no way any adjustment planned for steal will be any more worthwhile then the latest JA's we've gotten.

As far as wanting my favorite job to be the "best" i am a bard, i am a samurai, i am a thief, i am a black mage and i am a ninja, i enjoy most of these jobs (save maybe bard... too tedious...), if anything i'd say my samurai is by far my favorite over thief.

Quit assuming that every one is just QQing because we want to be OMGWTFBBQTOPTIERROFLWAFFLE. freaking sick of your (being all the omg thf QQ'ers) antagonistic no brainer retorts coming in the middle of this without reading whats being said. Half the counter points that your group keep's spouting show a fundamental lack of either being a career thief or even a general understanding of what ails the damn job (or perhaps a lack of understanding of anything . ).

honestly most of us have been in reserve with offering specific adjustments, at the most there have been requests for higher tiers of DW and subtle blow, if we could at least get SB that would put to rest a majority of the issue with those of us who'd rather DD, though wouldn't be the sole solution.

[Insaniac]

Thf's will never be top DD's, get over it. An already well geared, smart thf can already out DD most(non-emp) jobs in abyssea, and can keep up well outside( even at 75 i was still parsing well against sam's & wars...well at xp mobs XD). In the sense of endgame, thf will ALWAYS hold the TH whore role, spike damage through SA&TA, and lolhate control. Thf was never made to do more to NMs than the other DD's. A lot of you people just want YOUR job to be the best job at everything. Get real. Want to do massive damage? GO lvl war get a ukon. Want to tank? Level Nin, or Pld? lol. You want a veristile job that can DD well( not the best, but well) tank moderately well( great in abyssea), and provide a lil bonus to your loot pool? There's thf. Yes the dev's Vision of how they see the job, imo, is a little off. Steal fixes/tweaks this late in the game, honestly, are just a waist of the Devs time to figure out. And our time to even listen to. But it is what it is. You can cry "omg war get forced crit ; ; or omg dnc get triple att( though I really dont like this, one thing that seemed to ALWAYS set thf apart.) But thf, how it is( except maybe a tweak to the TH proc/usefulness of higher TH procs) is pretty damn good how it is. Honestly, it just seems like a lot of the player base just wants all jobs( ie Their MAIN job) to be able to rape everything solo and call it day. Get real.You couldn't have read a single post here. If you would have looked at any one of the 31 pages in this thread before you posted you would have realized how silly it would make you look.

[Babekeke]

Anyone read the comments on RNG updates thread?


We currently have no plans of adding an ability that resets hate for ranger. We suggest forming a party with a job that can control hate, such as thief, to get around this issue.

Because Sidewinder>barrage>sidewinder (or other WS, I'm not too familiar with RNG WS anymore) followed by Collaborator will make it so easy for the NIN to hold hate for the rest of the fight, even if you're not fighting mobs where hate is @ cap almost immediately.

How far off the mark the Devs really are... astounds me.

[Nebo]

Anyone read the comments on RNG updates thread?



Because Sidewinder>barrage>sidewinder (or other WS, I'm not too familiar with RNG WS anymore) followed by Collaborator will make it so easy for the NIN to hold hate for the rest of the fight, even if you're not fighting mobs where hate is @ cap almost immediately.

How far off the mark the Devs really are... astounds me.

LOL. You beat me too it!!! But I responded there.

I really can't believe they actually think this. I know we all joke about it, but it would appear that they REALLY do not have a clue about THF abilities or gameplay.

[Laphine]

At least they are not contradicting themselves by giving everyone hate reset i guess. (Making our hate management quality even more questionable)

[FrankReynolds]

I'm pretty sure that all the developers left to go do something else. Then they gave some Secretary or intern a copy of the original game guide and said:

" Here. Read this manual to find out what the games about.... your promoted to forum admin now. Answer some questions every once in a while just to make it look like someone is still working on the game. We'll be out playing golf if you need us. Oh by the way. Don't tell them anything about the billing. We're trying to get people to quit playing so that we can get transferred to a new department. "

[Phen]

Hey Camate many of the other forums have gotten very specific feed back as to what their abilities will do but we got vague things or not gonna happens. Can we get something specific over here?

[Melphina]

Quote Originally Posted by Babekeke View Post
Anyone read the comments on RNG updates thread?



Because Sidewinder>barrage>sidewinder (or other WS, I'm not too familiar with RNG WS anymore) followed by Collaborator will make it so easy for the NIN to hold hate for the rest of the fight, even if you're not fighting mobs where hate is @ cap almost immediately.

How far off the mark the Devs really are... astounds me.
LOL. You beat me too it!!! But I responded there.

I really can't believe they actually think this. I know we all joke about it, but it would appear that they REALLY do not have a clue about THF abilities or gameplay.

I believe the issue is not that the devs lack understanding of thf abilities so much as they don't understand the gameplay itself. The devs appear to be under the impression that a once a minute 25% hate stolen from one person, or 50% stolen once every 5 minutes coupled with trick attack weaponskills is all someone needs to control hate.

I do not believe the devs realize how quickly enmity is generated when people go off the wall and zerg trash mobs, or how when the paladins are capped on enmity everyone elses levels are largely irrelevant because anything less than the cap means the mob will still be on the paladin. They know people use third eye and utsusemi, but they appear to be of the mindset that we still use 2004 mechanics where we have a dedicated tank, a support to cure that tank, and a bunch of melees who dont wanna get hit. Instead the norm is that people just attack stuff and let mages cure them when they get hurt so that the mob dies too fast for it to do any real damage. Dead mobs don't retaliate no matter how squishy their target is.

I don't joke at all when I say this. I think the devs are completely out of touch with today's gameplay. They created the content but they forgot that everything interacts at once, and they are oblivious to the fact that people don't want to wait to kill mobs 1 at a time. If people can pull five mobs and have a BLM sleep them and -GA them to death they will. If they can kill stuff and take heavy damage but not die.... and a mage can cure them afterwards.... they will. If they can kill a HNM with their DD going balls to the wall after the paladins have spent 5 minutes capping hate.... they willo, and those two paladins will hold the mobs attention the whole time. If somebody is an idiot and pulls hate they just reraise and go right back to town. The devs seem to be of a mindset that players value their HP pools and will take all possible measures to avoid getting KOd under any circumstances... and that just is not the case (as is evident by the fact that people zombied stuff since the Kirin era. Weakened melees were always bum rushing Kirin to get that meditated steel cyclone in to prove their worth and taking a stone IV to the face be damned,... they are GOING to attack..... and they did.

I really believe the devs have no clue how players use the abilities they were given, and they have absolutely no understanding of the hate cycle in a REAL TIME environment. The hate algorithms may look fancy on paper, but in a world where you zerg trash mobs to kill them NOW and heavy tank important stuff they are almost entirely irrelevant.

[Babekeke]

It probably all works out fine when there's 18 of you in a room with a set plan and you can shout to each other what to do, then punch them in the face if they mess up. Unfortunately, only the Devs get this luxury.

[Insaniac]

It probably all works out fine when there's 18 of you in a room with a set plan and you can shout to each other what to do, then punch them in the face if they mess up. Unfortunately, only the Devs get this luxury.

That's something I never thought about. I would hope they take that into account when designing content but just the fact that they are all on the same page, when it comes to testing, would skew the results quite a bit. Maybe when the test server comes up they will really start working with us on making things more functional for real play.

[Phen]

Hey lets ask what their vision for hate is:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12364-The-Flow-of-Enmity?p=160088#post160088

[Smush]

Just moving this post here seems like its more likely for the devs to see it here sry for spam XD

"Vision
Stealthy pickpockets that duck and weave to land sneak attacks while keeping party enmity under control from the shadows.

We wish to see thieves further develop the cunning they are so aptly known for by providing them with even more means of manipulating enmity and continuing to fatten the party's coffers.


Example Adjustments

Adding a new ability that complements Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.

Raising the chances of successfully executing Steal and Despoil commensurate with Treasure Hunter.

Adding a new ability that intimidates an enemy in proportion to the number of members in the party."

This vision you have does not make the thf players happy at all most thf that love and take pride in the job are extremely hurt and are in rage over this.

Not the whole vision is bad Adding a ability that complments are main two abilities is great, but raising the chances of successfully executing Steal and Despoil commensurate with Treasure Hunter us almost next to useless endgame and would help thf get used in HNM or endgame right now.


Adding a new ability that intimidates an enemy in proportion to the number of members in the party if implement in a good way could be a big help.

Ways to make thf's happy and make the job better in endgame and hnms

1st being a melee job of course we would want to bring decent dmg to the table right now on mobs with high def or too high eva unless we sub way which is a good way to fix that problam are dmg is horrable now if we had a increase in dmg base of are daggers a bit better of a crit rate like thfs in other FF a A+ in dagger and at least Dual wield 4 by 99

Ways to implement this:

A trait that makes Dagger dmg base rise with skill like H2H

If not increse the dual wield we have add a trait to lower are dagger delay like mnks martial arts

A trait that increases are crit hit rate by 1% every 10 lvls start at 10 and one last at around 95 ~ 99 for a total of 10% since crits would help us make up for att we doing have from being 1handers

Since we are DoT melee jobs that attack alot like mnk nin and dnc. PLEASE GIVE US subtle blow all other DoT jobs have it but thf and pup ppl dont like us to melee hnms because of it and even SB 3 would be much help.

The attack and acc probalm can be fix by just subing war which is how i think you guys intended it to be when adding dual wield so with more dual wield or dagger delay trait it would make /war better sure we give up are def from sub nin but thats a fair price to increase are dmg which most hnms wipe shadows anyways and we dont really tank that much unless low man outside abyssea and we have A+ eva and evasion bonus i think we can manage.

last thing Enmity managment.

Its almost useless atm because most tanks cap hate so fast and DD or blm's dont pull it because they control there selfs on hnm's. if we had a few abilities to give DD's and blm a window to where they could go all out and be safe it would make thf more wanted for enmity control

Like making hide lose all enmity we have so we could accomplice then drop all the hate away

A ability that makes next trick attack move all hate to the person in front so we could collabarate a DD or mage and move hate to tank.

A ability that allows Enmity to stay locked at capped at current lvl so that we can use with conspriter to give a DD party subtle blow and accaracy and keep hate off them for 1min to zerg the last 20% of a hnm's hp.

Maybe some of the ideas i have are bad and over powering. Maybe some are good and just what the job needs. but i know one thing the vision you have set in place is not what thfs want we want to be useful endgame the way that the player base plays today we want to be a more supportive attacking job assassin like job we dont want to be the strogest DD but we want to be good enough to be called a supportive DD.

Making Collaborator and Accomplice different timers.

Please listen to your players and try to make us happy because right now the ppl who love thf like myself are not so.

[Smush]

Well SE i dont know who came up with this excuse but its bogus... ill explain

First off we have been wanted/needed Subtle blow of are own way before we even had this now style of th upgrading so thats not a excuse.

2nd TH raises the % so low ppl wont really care once we have 6-8 so they wont really want us to melee HNMs with really bad TP moves and AoEs since we can feed alot of TP
which would limit us to in and out SA TA for more that can be melee'd freely that is very boring when we look at other melee jobs like mnk nin and dnc being able to melee because they dont make the mob go nuts then they melee it.

It seems we are otw to getting DWIII so /war will be the DD sub of choice if we not tanking or need shadows so we will lose the little subtle blow we do get from are sub en-th is not a justified way to not give us subtle blow when jobs like dnc have things they get from meleeing such as haste somba and the ablitity to cure very good front line and they still get subtle blow.

So please SE rethink this no thf wants to be the guy who puts th on the mob and basicly have free time to go afk we want to be in the fight we want to have a effect of the whole fight not just the end where ppl start lotting stuff... this is the worse role and most boring job you can give a ffxi player it takes NO SKILL AT ALL a mule could do it and alot of mules do i seen you posted on the sam update about not giving them a trait ability that auto stuns next TP move because it lacks the need of skill well right now in most players and ls leaders eyes the role of thf lacks skill because we are only there for th which takes no skill at all just tho a boomarange at the mob yea we could go in and out and sa and ta but that takes very little skill and the proc rate gets so low and has such alow effect once your at a high lvl like th 7-8 its almost a waist of time.
We should be able to control enmity like you want us to but its almost no need ppl know how to control there enmity gain a good tank will cap there enmity in a short time with no help from us so in order for us to be so call masters of enmity we need more hate control abilities.

I hope SE reads this and think about real ways to help our job not.... upgrade Steal and give us nothing to steal because there afriad rtms might STEAL IT like really....

[Laphine]

I actually don't even mind not having subtle blow because we have TH. The problem is not having anything at all because we have TH lol.

[slakyak]

I don't play thf at a high level so feel free to set me on fire for this one...

Would having to knock the mob down to 1/4 HP before you can steal preven the steal/hide thing? This way there is no real quick rinse and repeat Gil spinner. Or at least have it so you steal a pants item if the HP is higher and then a shiny thing once you (or the party) have nearly KO'd the mob.

[Laphine]

Well, we wouldn't be able to steal from one-shotables. That's not really an issue anyway.

Steal+Hide is fixed for the longest time now. We can't steal and zone or hide. Steal pool doesn't reset with depops, we need to kill the mob if we wanna steal again. The devs just gave another lousy excuse for us.

[Alaik]

Basically what Laphine says. It's the same reason you can't despawn mobs to pop a NM. Any despawning mob respawns as the EXACT same mob. This would be really evident for everyone but thieves if they made any regular mobs with 2 hours, I would assume.

[slakyak]

Then Camate's comment on high quality items seems a bit wide of the mark doesn't it?! Maybe they'll give THF Morph to sort it out??? (lol)

Although I guess its more of a Mage ability and if THF did get it it'd end up on the 5min recast!!

[Alaik]

A morph ability would be a 10 minute recast, macc based ability that gave no useful items (like steal) except on HNM, which would have a low chance to get a good item already on his steal pool. (Of course morph would have to be used @5% HP, kill the mob and remove it's loot)

If THF got it anyway.

[Laphine]

I envy drk and their double reply;; oh wait, nvm, drk didn't get 2 replies. SCH did tho! Much more, actually.
We do have a 300+ posts thread...i guess, too much whining and too few new ideas?

/sigh

[Karbuncle]

SCH got 3 Actually. I didn't like our response but I'm happy we got one!

I'm sure we'll get more as they get the info :)

[Laphine]

Yeah, who knows~

Only thing i'm waiting for sure is a big disappointment when the official update announcement comes up lol.

[Karbuncle]

Yeah, who knows~

Only thing i'm waiting for sure is a big disappointment when the official update announcement comes up lol.

You and me both...

you and me both...

It really does depress me to think they'll continue to lengthen the gap between THF and another DD, I mean if our role in a party becomes TH + hate control i won't really mind it so long as we're useful, But from the sound of things now, and how they're so sure adjusting most of our current stuff would throw Earth out of Orbit... I really do not expect much in terms of THF.

They will keep us a TH-whore our entire existence, which isn't too bad i guess.

[Laphine]

They will keep us a TH-whore our entire existence, which isn't too bad i guess.

Not bad at all for those who can afford more accounts and have their very own TH mule. And who gets to win more money with this? lol conspiracy go!

[Insaniac]

I don't play thf at a high level so feel free to set me on fire for this one...

Would having to knock the mob down to 1/4 HP before you can steal preven the steal/hide thing? This way there is no real quick rinse and repeat Gil spinner. Or at least have it so you steal a pants item if the HP is higher and then a shiny thing once you (or the party) have nearly KO'd the mob.
It's not really a bad idea except for the fact that it's not needed. As mentioned before it's simply not possible anymore.

Seriously, I would trade the ability to steal any items at all for the ability to steal temp items with high success rate on a lower timer. With the exception of BB, I haven't used steal with the intention of stealing an item in probably 2 years. If SE is so afraid of steal they need to change it completely instead of letting it linger in the realm of terrible. When 3 of the worst JAs in the entire game are on 1 job something needs to be done.

If you aren't sure which 3 I'm talking about.. Mug Steal and Despoil. The only other JAs that I can think of on the same level of useless/terrible are Gauge and Scavenge.

[Babekeke]

Seems like their idea is actually similar to what Slakyak said, if I interpret it correctly. As TH rises, so does the chance to steal (better?) items, and more gil.

[noodles355]

For the chance to steal better items, monsters would need to be given things worth stealing at all.
SE has basically said they want us to steal more and they dont want us to steal more.

[Karbuncle]

sometimes i actually wonder if they realize how absolutely worthless most items you steal are.

The only profitable steal item i can think of thats almost worth farming are Lesser Chigoe from Marids. And even that is still piddly money compared to other things you could be doing.

[Laphine]

i imagine it should be much easier to steal platinum beastcoins. Idk how good is the demand for them tho.

[Karbuncle]

They're worth generally less/same price than/as Gold Beastcoins, and not that much more than Mythril, which are easier to steal.

[Alaik]

And even if they were a 100% steal shot, we'd still use cruor for gil as opposed to lolbeastcoins.

[Garota]

Um... I couldn't get Brulo & Ogopogo off of me at all the other day. Was Paladin with Almace carvin' Zs in their faces, I would Trick Attack and Eviscerate to make a Darkness skillchain. I'd toss in a Sneak Attack to try to bump up Treasure Hunter 8. Every time Paladin could Cover me he would, but it wasn't enough and they proceeded to turn to me and smack me in the face...

Moments like this make me wish Enmity Douse was a Thief ability and not Black Mage. So yeah... That's all I got to say about that...

[Karbuncle]

Capping hate is fun :X

[noodles355]

What karbuncle said. You capped hate. It's stupidly easy to do in abyssea. It's like saying you out-parsed random melees in a pickup EXP party: it doesn't mean anything (except that the enmity system needs a fix).

[Arcon]

I have to admit I didn't read all of the 34 pages thoroughly and just skimmed over some posts, since I just woke up and spent two hours reading the 75 pages in the General Discussion and felt no need to repeat that again. But I haven't bashed Nebo's opinion in a while, so I just wanted to drop by and comment.


The dev team knows you're upset, but they like things the way they are and don't care about you, so they won't change anything.

Thanks for saying what everybody already knew. The dev team has their own agenda. Occasionally player input coincides with their ideas, which gives the illusion that they actually listen to us.


And quite honestly....I can see no visible difference between treasure hunter effectiveness level 6 and treasure hunter effectiveness level 13. How about throw us a bone and actually TELL us what it does? (I know, I know....what a crazy idea.)

It is crazy, if you look at SE's track record. SE's motto is generally "ignore the community", both in regards to their wishes as well as their inquiries, and always has been.


So you don't want to add items worth stealing because then people might want to steal them?

That's probably the most accurate interpretation of the dev team's response (and general dev team logic) I've seen in here. Bonus points for being funny.


Trait level TH has a dramatically higher effect than the TH proc system they introduced. The difference between a TH3+3 and TH3 THF is going to be almost undetectable unless you have a well-controlled test with a high sample size, and if you do I'd love to see it.

I can't say I noticed that, but then again, I didn't do any particular testing for it. Has there been any real TH testing since the new TH system? If this is true, it could also just be due to diminishing returns on TH in general. To disprove that you'd have to test it using TH gear with low base TH, which is quite hard. Maybe a mass-murdering job, like MNK, with Tarutaru Sash and Dread Atma, then compare it to naked TH2?

Either way, I'm not really fussed, since I have no gaping objections with THF as it is. THF has a myriad of uses, I use it for almost everything. Is it the best at everything? Not by a long shot. What is it best at? TH, and occasional tank maybe. For everything else there's better. Is that a problem? Not by a long shot. People act like THF has it worse than PLD (which still isn't as bad as people make it out to be).

I tank almost everything on THF and do it very well. Sure, NIN+THF would have been better, but I don't have a second account. I also farm almost everything on THF and do it very well. Sure, WAR+THF would have been better, but again, I don't have a second account (and many other people don't either). THF is a nice backup tank, nice holder for NMs, nice to solo mobs on, nice to do quests with, nice to run errands with, nice to do missions with (pretty much every mission in the game, unlike someone said before, probably Nebo judging by the inaccuracy of the statement). THF can do KSNM fights, all kinds of battlefields, all kinds of events, all kinds of pretty much everything, even AoE killing inside Abyssea.

Clearly it doesn't do all of these things as well as other jobs, but who cares? Does it need to be the best? The bulk of the people who complain say they love THF and that's why they want the changes. And that alone isn't a bad thing. However, if you love THF so much, how come you're saying it's useless on every front? And if you hang around people who abuse you as TH whore and just want the absolute maximum amount of items/playtime, then maybe you should work on your social standards instead of complaining about something that isn't broke.

THF wasn't meant to be the end-all solution to your problems. It won't make your ex fall in love with you again and it won't bring your nan back to life. But it will provide you with a great gaming experience (assuming SE still lets you play after this month's billing fiasco). It does have issues (even reasonable issues like everything the dev team didn't acknowledge in Camate's post), but it is a fun and useful job.

On the matter of whether it's a damage dealer or not, I have one word to say: daggers. Are you expecting to deal damage with a weapon class that gave you "Hornetneedle"? You can do more damage slapping ass with a wet towel.

There's three ways to judge what class a job is. First, by what it does. Whatever THF does, it isn't damage, so that's not it. Second, by what it's designed to be. As people never fail to point out, THF wasn't designed to deal damage, and SE still maintains that policy. Third, by what people want it to be. Well, that's subjective, you want it to change, I don't. THF has plenty of "mistakes", such as useless abilities, but our role in the game is fine as it is.

[FrankReynolds]

All I got out of that was

1: you agree that the proposed changes are total BS.

2: all of us should go make new friends so that SE doesn't have to fix them.

[Arcon]

All I got out of that was

1: you agree that the proposed changes are total BS.

{word}


2: all of us should go make new friends so that SE doesn't have to fix them.

Not quite sure what you mean, but I think I know which section you're referring to. To clarify: some people are profit-driven, and wanna use whichever tool is best suited for a job. Those are the people that level up WHM or MNK, and sometimes have a THF mule (or even accept being the token TH in their group, without (m)any other purpose(s)). If you're like that, that's absolutely fine, you're a functional player. Good for you.

Other people on the other hand are willing to make sacrifices in efficiency to enjoy the gameplay more. Which is also perfectly fine, in fact, I am one of them. However, if you come here to complain about efficiency, you're either the latter, wanting to be the former, which is just requesting preferential treatment for your job of choice. Or you're the former, wanting to be the latter, which means you're not really a functional player, and either do it cause you have some kind of OCD which drives you to perfection, which means you'll always be unhappy with the game unless SE does exactly what you want and pushes exactly the jobs you want. Or, you're doing it to comply with your group, and accept it despite your will, to remain a part of it for whatever reason. Maybe so you're able to call yourself a perfectionist? Who knows.

The last case was the one I assumed, because people of the first group I generally ignore, and I don't know many people who fall in the second group. So when people complain about this kinda stuff, I assume they belong to the third group, which doesn't seem unlikely to me, seeing as I know a few people who are in there.

[Karbuncle]

The problem is people who generally "Play to sacrifice efficiency" aren't the people who actually get things done without the need to brew and/or throw bodies at it until it dies.

Its not such a catastrophe that I'm(We're) Asking our job to appeal to the type of people who actually accomplish things in this game without a need to toss an alliance of bodies at it.

Yes, THF is wonderful on Petty-Weak No-danger NMs and mobs, Such as Farming, or EP-Dynamis mobs. We're wonderful for TH Whoring, We've said all of that.

The problem, as you even pointed out yourself, We're mediocre at it all, thanks to TH.

MNKs/NINs/PLDs Tank better (based on mobs, Of course, NIN always > THF though, slightly less evasion 1-2 More shadows per cast, better buffs/debuffs for survivability)
Everything DD's better
Any job in the game can Sac pull

The one thing we truly excel at is being a Treasure Hunter whore, You can look at the other roles we "fill because we're there", but everything you named can be done by another job better than THF can do it. (outside of Obviously the things you named TH'ing), and the only reason you do them on THF Is because you need TH, and have no one to do it with.

I'm in the same boat as you though, I'm the only THF with TH6 in my group of friends, I'm always on the job, in Abyssea i'm a wonderful asset and a good tank, But when we do outside Abyssea content its obvious i fall behind, and default to my role of TH Whore because i generally don't do a lot else.

I may act/sound like THF is useless, Because to the majority of people who actually get stuff done reasonably, we are. In a sense, most good Endgame LS that accomplish things have a LS THF Mule, while those aren't big right now, when content moves away from Abyssea's "Pick-up/duo" Era and back into difficult content, I might actually have to get a LS.

I would just like to be able to play my favorite job in that LS without having to dig around for a group (lets face it) dumb enough to bring more than 1 THF per event.

Yes, I know I'm appealing to the wrong type of people, But unfortunately in FFXI if you want to be useful you have to appeal to the people who are also useful. At this point I'm not even asking for damage boosts, too many DD in the game to fill that role properly... Dual Wield III/IV would be nice but i won't cry if we don't get them.

At this point I'd like them to continue down their path of Enmity control, The only sad thing is, I think they're too afraid to make THF useful outside of TH, i can't explain it other than that. Its like they're scared of the job. The comments on Aura Steal being too powerful to make its on JA or reduce its timer is a blaring trumpet to that.

Our job is doomed to Mediocrity not because of it being only great TH whoring, Its mostly do to the fact the Dev team seems too afraid to give THF anything meaningful. In another questionnaire they told RNGs to team up with THFs if they wanted to control/lose Enmity (It was a question about an Enmity douse ability for RNG), which i thought was funny, because they seem to think grabbing 25% of someones enmity once per minute, or 50% every 5 minutes seems to be a viable form of Enmity control in FFXI.

When its not, and since a THF has no way of dumping that enmity outside of Dying, Its only useful for getting the THF killed every now and again, or putting an alliance in danger.

I do love THF, and i know we barely manage to get by on our current Abilities, But I'm just asking for a well deserved and needed buff ANYWHERE. I made suggestions a while back about how to make Enmity Controlling much better for THF, to truly control the tides of battle. Hopefully they'll see them.

But I'm starting to actually feel like you on this, that they actually have their own agenda/plans and nothing we suggest is being considered, they occasional come in and say that, but in reality its just already falling in line with their plans for the job. I try not to be cynical but i do feel like these forums are a charade to make us feel like we're doing something, when its nothing more than them doing what they're doing and digging to respond to things they're already doing like they're doing it because it was suggested.

And yes, Its not the Reps fault.

[Byrth]

I couldn't give a shit what they do to Thief, but I think a lot of the whining here is baseless and could be solved by just changing your job and using a TH mule. I'm sorry that the solution is so simple, but as long as TH is a passive trait that will be the answer.

[Karbuncle]

I couldn't give a shit what they do to Thief, but I think a lot of the whining here is baseless and could be solved by just changing your job and using a TH mule. I'm sorry that the solution is so simple, but as long as TH is a passive trait that will be the answer.

Yes........................................

Yes I know that and thats exactly what I'm trying to change/address. I don't want our job to be "Change jobs if you wanna be useful" :\ Your ideas were good i admit.

I liked your suggestions, But there are ways to make THFs useful outside of TH... I hope. Anyway, What was your suggestion again Byrth? Assuming it wasn't switch jobs, I would like to read your TH upgrade suggestion again.

i Skimmed it last time but didn't truly take it in. Can you Copy > Paste it from Ala and then dumb it down for me? I really think they would be worth mentioning again.

Edit: Wait, How are our complaints that THF is mediocre "Unfounded" when the best solution you have to it is "Switch jobs and use a TH Mule"? Sorry that confuses me a little Byrth... :X

[Byrth]

It's unfounded because your job is doing exactly what it's intended to do and is still highly desired. Instead of requesting that SE make you another job by giving you generic damage boosts, it would be better to ask for something that enhances the role you already has and makes it more fun to play.

Here it is again:

The main "problem" with the way SE has designed Thief is not the lack of DD abilities or their vision of the job. The "problem" is that SE made Treasure Hunter a passive trait that's almost entirely independent of Thief skill and dedication. Over the past few updates, SE has been back-tracking and trying to make it somewhat skill dependent with their goofy proc system, but autoattacking/using SA/TA is hardly "making it skill dependent" at least not to the extent that skill/gear determines DD potential.

If I was going to change it, from a design standpoint, I'd eliminate the current multi-tiered job trait TH system (though I'd keep the tiers) and instead make it dependent on Thief's strong point, spike damage. You borrow the skill/gear dependence of DDing by making it depend on damage. Set a TH effect system with multiple tiers (instead of the three current tiers) with /THF being capped to Level 2, that works like this:
Level 1 +(p-1)*p) : Thief is on the hate list
Level 2 +(p-1)^2*p) : Do >5% HP damage in a single action or >2*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 3 +(p-1)^3*p) : Do >10% HP damage in a single action or > 4*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 4 +(p-1)^4*p) : Do >15% HP damage in a single action or > 6*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 5 +(p-1)^5*p) : Do >20% HP damage in a single action or > 8*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 6 +(p-1)^6*p) : Do >25% HP damage in a single action or > 10*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 7 +(p-1)^7*p) : Do >30% HP damage in a single action or > 12*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
etc.
Where p = (Base Drop rate + TH Gear/100)

This kind of system, if properly balanced (and it's possible the numbers above are not), would force parties to cooperate with THF game mechanics if they want drops. Not only that, but high tiers of TH would only be obtainable by THFs with considerable dedication to the job and a little luck. The highest tiers of TH would be unobtainable on anything notable. And most importantly, if they change the system to something like this, they need to TELL US EXACTLY HOW IT WORKS.

By this system, a 10% drop rate with Level 5 TH would become a 57% drop rate for THF main (TH+3), a 38% drop rate for a less dedicated THF (Level 3 TH and TH+1), or a 27% drop rate for /THF. The above math is actually just an extension of the way the game's TH trait system currently works, though it's unclear how the current "level" system works. Point is, the above system would make the whole party revolve around helping the Thief get epeen damage shots.

Currently, TH is thought to work like this:
* Treasure Hunter gives you one reroll if a "drop slot" fails to fill itself the first time.
* Treasure Hunter II gives you another reroll if a "drop slot" fails to fill itself after the first two rolls.
* Treasure Hunter III gives you a third reroll if a "drop slot" fail to fill itself after the first three rolls.
* "Treasure Hunter +1" or "Treasure Hunter level 1" is theoretically +1% drop rate, although I doubt that's actually how it works. It seems more likely to me that it's +1% drop rate on the final re-roll, but that's another issue. There have been a few people claiming to discover what it does, but statistics say otherwise.

My system would just have that continue. So if you managed to get "TH Level 4" in my system, it would give you a fourth re-roll. Most significant NMs have very high HP, so you'd be going off the Defense markers for them. 6*500 Defense would be 3000 damage, so if you can do 3000 damage to the NM then you could get a fourth re-roll. Do you think the average THF mule is going to pull off a 3k WS on a hard NM even in Abyssea? Not very likely. Could a Twashtar, Mandau, or Vajra THF pull off a 3k WS on damned near anything in Abyssea? Yeah, and they could potentially do a 4200 damage WS for a fifth re-roll. Move over Thief's knife, relics/mythics/empyreans are suddenly better.

What's that? You want me to line up for SATA so you can get an extra TH re-roll and we can get more drops? Pull together the troops boys, we're SATAing as a party for the first time since 2004.

On normal monsters, you could pull an 800 damage SA for 96% HP damage and get level 9001 TH for full drops. Oh my! How broken! A Thief that reliably hunts treasure against TW monsters!!!... As your level goes up relative to the monster, the TH tier that you can easily reach also increases. Is it really unreasonable that old content should get high drop rates the more outdated it is?

[Laphine]

The main issue with THF is that we are the best at something we have no control of. We can't control TH, yet we are desired for TH first and foremost. And this really doesn't bode well when most players want oportunities to show their skill, and to be recognized by others. The main trait on THF puts the player to the background, no other job has an issue like that, and this is why THF is broken.

Abyssea did give us this so desired skill card. We can't tank as well as say NIN or MNK, but we can tank. And player skill really mean something when we don't have all the tools those jobs have. Now we are leaving Abyssea tho. It's the dark ages all over again. And to boot the proposed endgame doesn't need TH. What is THF going to offer then? This worries me a lot.

edit: err, posted too late due lunch. Oh well~

[Karbuncle]

It's unfounded because your job is doing exactly what it's intended to do and is still highly desired.

My fear is, if content continues down Voidwatch and/or Abyssea level path, We're won't remain highly desired outside of old events. (Voidwatch: TH Is useless outside of being a crutch for weaker groups, Abyssea: General populace prefer Procs > TH, even though both is ideal, Low man = name of the game, Less people = less competition, bring Proc jobs and nothing else (outside of Empyrean Weapon NMs of course)

This is where my fear comes from, that TH won't be a "Free ticket" Forever if content continues down its current path, and then the jobs becomes absolutely useless (Outside old content)


Rest of it

I do like the idea, Very Very much so, It gives us solid contribution to the fight as well as removes TH mules from being effective. It relying on our damage might open up to some DD boosts for THF Too. Its well thought out. It makes THF a bit more in-depth as terms of a Treasure Hunter.

the ONLY Problem i could see with this is that say, Imagine a mob like Yagudo Conquistador, Drops a bunch of Scrolls, With a well places SA > SB or DE you could one shot it, and receive all ~7 Scrolls he drops instantly, It would extremely crash the market for :Ni Scroll farmers (And a lot of items) Drastically impacting the economy of farmed items. (I think thats what you said right? 1 shotting something = super drops? Really sorry if im misreading it)

Outside of that, I'd take that improvement to TH and never complain about THF again, Sure it still limits it to just 1 THF For per alliance, But its a vast improvement over the "TH Mule" prospect of the game.

[Byrth]

I guess one easy criticism of the system I propose is "people would only bring Thieves, hoping for a lucky double-TA WS." Realistically though, we're going into everything these days low-man with our parties already bursting with required proc jobs and a NQ dagger THF isn't going to out-WS a Twashtar or Mandau THF. I think it'd just make you bring the "best" Thieves.

Also, if SE is entirely up front about how the system then there wouldn't be much THF-onry damage whoring. If someone WSs King Behemoth for 4210 damage, they aren't going to spend the rest of the fight holding out an impossible 5301. As long as the tiers are wide enough and known, it wouldn't really contribute to dilly-dallying.

If you felt like it, you could potentially tie other mechanisms into this (like skillchaining and MBing off the THF's WS for some additional TH). I'd hesitate to add MB damage though, as it might lead to 16 SCHs and BLMs sitting around with a THF and a SAM going for something like 7-step Darkness.

Edit:
And yeah, things like Ni scrolls would drop off dramatically as they become farmable. On one hand, poor Ni scroll farmers ; ;. On the other hand, is it really reasonable that level 40 Ninja spells and level 50-60 Black Mage spells cost hundreds of thousands of gil? Why is that not already cheap?

That does raise an interesting point though, which is NPCable items. Think about all the EP monsters that drop items you can NPC for a few hundred gil. One-shot a Dhalmel, get a hide, a femur, two meats, papaka grass. NPC it and you've got 1k. Move on to the next Dhalmel. Maybe something like Wisteria Lumber in the tree off Goobbues would be a real issue? I'm sure there's some monster with a shit drop rate on a high-gil NPCable item that I'm not considering, but the solution to it is simply to cap it at TH level 10 or something.

Also, building your cruor chain in Abyssea and you'd kill pretty fast for 500 cruor (~1.25k gil from an NPC) a shot. Considering Abyssea killspeed and the fact that you wouldn't be relying on SA or TA, I'm not sure that there's really a lot to worry about.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, I don't know if I'm being unclear but i agree it would help the job very much. If anything it would give us a solid role/reason to melee and WS and bring only the better/best of THFs

[Byrth]

Yeah sorry, I started critiquing the system before I read your post. I editted in other comments above.

[Insaniac]

It's unfounded because your job is doing exactly what it's intended to do and is still highly desired. Instead of requesting that SE make you another job by giving you generic damage boosts, it would be better to ask for something that enhances the role you already has and makes it more fun to play.

Here it is again:


Currently, TH is thought to work like this:
* Treasure Hunter gives you one reroll if a "drop slot" fails to fill itself the first time.
* Treasure Hunter II gives you another reroll if a "drop slot" fails to fill itself after the first two rolls.
* Treasure Hunter III gives you a third reroll if a "drop slot" fail to fill itself after the first three rolls.
* "Treasure Hunter +1" or "Treasure Hunter level 1" is theoretically +1% drop rate, although I doubt that's actually how it works. It seems more likely to me that it's +1% drop rate on the final re-roll, but that's another issue. There have been a few people claiming to discover what it does, but statistics say otherwise.

My system would just have that continue. So if you managed to get "TH Level 4" in my system, it would give you a fourth re-roll. Most significant NMs have very high HP, so you'd be going off the Defense markers for them. 6*500 Defense would be 3000 damage, so if you can do 3000 damage to the NM then you could get a fourth re-roll. Do you think the average THF mule is going to pull off a 3k WS on a hard NM even in Abyssea? Not very likely. Could a Twashtar, Mandau, or Vajra THF pull off a 3k WS on damned near anything in Abyssea? Yeah, and they could potentially do a 4200 damage WS for a fifth re-roll. Move over Thief's knife, relics/mythics/empyreans are suddenly better.

What's that? You want me to line up for SATA so you can get an extra TH re-roll and we can get more drops? Pull together the troops boys, we're SATAing as a party for the first time since 2004.

On normal monsters, you could pull an 800 damage SA for 96% HP damage and get level 9001 TH for full drops. Oh my! How broken! A Thief that reliably hunts treasure against TW monsters!!!... As your level goes up relative to the monster, the TH tier that you can easily reach also increases. Is it really unreasonable that old content should get high drop rates the more outdated it is?

I've said this before. Your idea is coming from the right place but it's not perfect. You might get people to line up once or twice but then it's back to "Ok now gtfo while we kill this." Keeping THF really involved in a fight that they aren't tanking is gonna take more than this.

Yes, I want a damage boost. I don't care if I'm still the lowest DD damage in the alliance. I just want the gap narrowed back to what it used to be. Beyond that I want active utility beyond TH for the simply reason that TH is a boring thing to do. SE seems halfway on board with the idea. I mean.. they gave us collaborator when it actually did something. Now they need to continue building our job like they have done for every other job since the level increase. EVERY SINGLE OTHER JOB IN THIS GAME has grown in some way since 75. New spells, new pets, new useful JAs, improvements to existing JAS. THF has gotten a couple little things but they are scraps compared to most of the stuff other jobs have gotten. That's where my disappointment comes from.

[Karbuncle]

And yeah, things like Ni scrolls would drop off dramatically as they become farmable. On one hand, poor Ni scroll farmers ; ;. On the other hand, is it really reasonable that level 40 Ninja spells and level 50-60 Black Mage spells cost hundreds of thousands of gil? Why is that not already cheap?

While i do agree you need to consider both sides of the argument, I think these spells were meant to be difficult to obtain, hence very low drop rates or from NMs only or BCNM/ISNM.

Crashing the market in them would probably impact a lot more than you suspect. Every farmable item from lower level mobs would likely be flooded, this would cause a lot of things to crash, and while cheaper things are good as a whole, it also makes it a lot harder to farm gil in the game.

Imagine also Anima's, used from Memories, if you could go on THF and 1-shot all the Ice-Elemental mobs and get Somber Memories/etc the expensive ones, The prices on those would likely crash in no time, causing Animas to crash and as such certain charged items (Reraise Earrings/Hairpins/etc).

And like i said, While its nice to have things cheaper, It would make it really hard to farm gil outside of as you suggest Cruor farming, because the markets would likely crash if things became such sure-shot drops.

Again though, I love the idea, this would have to be addressed in some way though... Brainstorm?

[Laphine]

Byrth put a solution on his previous post. A TH cap. Simple and direct lol.


I've said this before. Your idea is coming from the right place but it's not perfect. You might get people to line up once or twice but then it's back to "Ok now gtfo while we kill this." Keeping THF really involved in a fight that they aren't tanking is gonna take more than this.
The way i see it, unless ppl know for sure that the THF did the best damage he could do, they would always give more opotunities to achieve higher. Because higher = more drops. And everyone wants shineys.

[Karbuncle]

Byrth put a solution on his previous post. A TH cap. Simple and direct lol.

Must have read over that, i see it now.

[Byrth]

If you felt like it, you could cap the HP% version as shown below, or cap the overall TH tier possible based on monster level. This way EP/TW trash farming monsters would hardly be affected, but it would be possible to get higher levels of TH on NMs. It would change it to be this:


Level 1 +(p-1)*p) : Thief is on the hate list
Level 2 +(p-1)^2*p) : Do >20% HP damage in a single action or >2*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 3 +(p-1)^3*p) : Do >40% HP damage in a single action or > 4*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 4 +(p-1)^4*p) : Do >6*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 5 +(p-1)^5*p) : Do >8*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 6 +(p-1)^6*p) : Do >10*Monster DEF, whichever is lower
Level 7 +(p-1)^7*p) : Do >12*Monster DEF, whichever is lower

[Insaniac]

Byrth put a solution on his previous post. A TH cap. Simple and direct lol.


The way i see it, unless ppl know for sure that the THF did the best damage he could do, they would always give more opotunities to achieve higher. Because higher = more drops. And everyone wants shineys.
I really don't see it happening. I see it going from "Did you put TH on it? Ok kill it." to "Did you ACSATA WS yet? Ok kill it." On top of that the effects would have to be DRAMATIC for people to care that much and we all know SE wouldn't be willing to go as far as Byrth goes with his calculations. I don't even think the system change itself is something they would be willing to put the effort into.

[Byrth]

People bring Thieves to events for a single extra TH roll (TH3 vs. TH2). I think they'd definitely try and abuse the new system as much as possible if they thought it could get them more TH rolls. That said, the benefits of adding rolls decreases the more you add. I think it sums to be:
New Drop Rate = (1 - Original Drop Rate)^(TH Level+1)

A 10% drop rate doesn't become a 50% drop rate until you hit TH Level 6, and it's already about a 35% drop rate with TH Level 3.

Point is, most people don't understand how TH works, statistics, math, etc. and this would be an eyeballable increase on some things. They'd definitely play ball.

[Karbuncle]

I wish I knew people as smart as you Byrth.

The friends i play with generally get what you do, Wish there was a real solid answer/tests on TH.. but you'd need such large sample sizes... even then it wouldn't be 100% conclusive as to determine if its a % drop or re-roll like you claim.

[Arcon]

I guess one easy criticism of the system I propose is "people would only bring Thieves, hoping for a lucky double-TA WS." Realistically though, we're going into everything these days low-man with our parties already bursting with required proc jobs and a NQ dagger THF isn't going to out-WS a Twashtar or Mandau THF. I think it'd just make you bring the "best" Thieves.

I'm still not sure what to think of the additional rolls theory. If it's only true for the trait tiers, it might work, it still sounds horribly overpowered. It would push 5% drop rate to about 20% drop rate (think how incredibly noticeable that effect would be on King Arthro and Simurgh). And if we include other TH tiers (from gear and upgrades) as well, it would push the 5% to about 33%, so from a 1 in 20 drop to 1 in 3 drop.

I would love to do some new TH testing, with the new system to accurately determine a pattern to drops. In case anyone has some recent killing sprees they wanna parse for drops, I've included a drop rate counter into my parser:
http://ffxiut.com/parser

I like your suggested system a lot Byrth, although your formulas have me a bit confused. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I may have misunderstood, but wouldn't it be something like this

R = 1-(1-(D+T%))^(k+1)

where D is the original drop rate, T the TH level and k is the level you achieved from your highest damage attack, R being the resulting drop rate?

Generally I would endorse a system like that, however this is still a bit overpowered I think. If you think about it, having a good THF with you would be equivalent to doing a fight five times. And it's actually quite a bit more than that, due to the +T%, if you think about it, items with really small drop rates would be getting a massive drop rate boost. Take Hocho for example, an item with 1% drop rate, would shoot up to 35% if you get level 5, which should be very doable, quite possibly higher. That would be the equivalent to about 42 fights without TH. I think that's going a bit overboard.

So while I like the idea, I think it would need some fine tuning. For one you could replace the "+T%" by "*(1+T%)", and maybe give diminishing returns for higher level, like, only 2/3 the bonus with each level. This would be harder to implement however, would have to calculate it in a loop instead of one arithmetic expression, but it should still be very fast and easily feasible.

As I said, I might have misinterpreted what you meant, if I did feel free to correct me.

[Byrth]

The most recent testing thread is the top reference here (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Treasure_Hunter), but Enedin has since removed his data. Thorny's sample is still there though. He used to overnight bot MNK and THF mules to farm KSs off Lesser Colibri while he slept, so he got a large sample sizes. Anyway, it fit about perfectly with a reroll hypothesis, and so did a lot of Enedin's data. There appears to be something funny going on with things that share drop slots (two different items in the same slot) but we never figured out what it was. One of the major conclusions of the thread was, "Before you start TH research, you need to know EXACTLY what the monster drop possibilities are and pick your target very carefully." Data on things like Dhalmels is almost a waste of time because they have many drops, some of which doubtlessly share slots.

As far as "wherever will we get so much data?" Well, I'm pretty sure that a lot of people kill Pachypodiums and Blood Bats. You could take an item like Bat Wing or Humus and measure its drop rate when on THF or not. Not perfect, but I'm sure a lot of people could contribute parses that they happened to accumulate when farming Glavoid/Chloris. 500 kills from 10 people would get us a nice sample size.

An interesting drop-related phenomenon that can't be explained right now is Dynamis - Tav -1 drops. Expansion (ToAU/WotG) AF2-1 will only potentially drop if a non-expansion AF2-1 drops. This hurts the "drop slot" hypothesis, because one slot blatantly depends on another.

Edit: The skyrocketing drop rate of things like Hocho generally relies on how TH+1 gear works. Right now, with level 8 TH and TH level 3, you'd predict Hocho (1% + 8% = 9%) would be a 31% drop rate. Obviously not right, though it's unclear how it's not right. First and most obvious option would be that TH isn't out of 100%, but /1024 and TH+1 doesn't add 1%, it adds +1/1024. Then your TH level 8 doesn't increase the drop rate by 8%, it increases it by 8/1024 <1%.

I guess I'll just drop this here too. There has NEVER in all the data I've looked at been a case where TH+X was statistically significantly different from a kill without TH+X. The 1% is lore from a test someone did on Alla where they basically didn't find a significant difference and went, "Well, I guess that means it's 1%!"

[Insaniac]

People bring Thieves to events for a single extra TH roll (TH3 vs. TH2). I think they'd definitely try and abuse the new system as much as possible if they thought it could get them more TH rolls. That said, the benefits of adding rolls decreases the more you add. I think it sums to be:
New Drop Rate = (1 - Original Drop Rate)^(TH Level+1)

A 10% drop rate doesn't become a 50% drop rate until you hit TH Level 6, and it's already about a 35% drop rate with TH Level 3.

Point is, most people don't understand how TH works, statistics, math, etc. and this would be an eyeballable increase on some things. They'd definitely play ball.What I was getting at was that there is no way SE is going to make an eyeballable difference between 200-300 damage. This may just be me but most of the people I play with don't care about anything beyond base TH planting and I can't blame them. The difference seems to be so small that the time involved getting up to TH9-10 is rarely ever worth it. For people to care enough to go through the trouble of setting a THF up for the perfect WS through out the whole fight the difference between 2500 damage and 3000 damage would have to be eyeballable. I understand in your system that it would be but SE would never allow it. We would get a system where 3000 damage = TH3+7.

The system that SE put in place was simply a way of getting THFs more involved in fights without actually making them any better at anything. They are using the belief that TH9 actually is TH9 instead of TH3+6.

[Byrth]

They don't care about letting your proc because there's no noticeable difference between TH3+7 and TH3. They bring you along on THF instead of having you come BRD/THF because there's a noticeable difference between TH2 and TH3. I think they'd follow the same logic and play along if the system was implemented.

Whether SE would let good Thieves hunt treasure better is up to them, but this is an option. I also really doubt they'd do it. They're afraid to do anything that might disturb the economic game balance, which this might do. Thousands of monsters, thousands of items... it only takes one really bad NPCable combination to upset economic balance. They don't seem to have much of an issue with Abyssea NPCing though, so idk that they care so much anymore.

If they aren't going to go a pure damage route, I don't see what talking about stuff like this really hurts. This is an option to fix the way THF is played and make people happy, while solidifying THF's role as a treasure whore (seems to be what SE thinks). At least then when people get pissed at you for no-drops you can be like, "Whatever, you guys couldn't set up SATA right." or "Oh well, I put TH5 on it... good show."

[Insaniac]

They don't care about letting your proc because there's no noticeable difference between TH3+7 and TH3. They bring you along on THF instead of having you come BRD/THF because there's a noticeable difference between TH2 and TH3. I think they'd follow the same logic and play along if the system was implemented.

Whether SE would let good Thieves hunt treasure better is up to them, but this is an option. I also really doubt they'd do it. They're afraid to do anything that might disturb the economic game balance, which this might do. Thousands of monsters, thousands of items... it only takes one really bad NPCable combination to upset economic balance. They don't seem to have much of an issue with Abyssea NPCing though, so idk that they care so much anymore.


Yeah I get it and I like your system I'm not arguing against it. I did say it wouldn't work to keep THFs WSing the whole fight but truth be told I skimmed it and didn't realize how much a potent WS would increase drop rates until I actually looked at the math. I still think once a THF got in a remarkable WS they would be sidelined again but people would be willing to try harder for that big one. Unfortunately like you said SE is understandably terrified of globally higher drop rates and what we would get are increases in the same vein of TH7 -> TH9 which people are not going to be bothered with.


If they aren't going to go a pure damage route, I don't see what talking about stuff like this really hurts. This is an option to fix the way THF is played and make people happy, while solidifying THF's role as a treasure whore (seems to be what SE thinks). At least then when people get pissed at you for no-drops you can be like, "Whatever, you guys couldn't set up SATA right." or "Oh well, I put TH5 on it... good show."

I never meant to come across as discounting your idea or not wanting to talk about it. I appreciate the effort and thought put into it. I just don't think it's the answer because it's so unlikely to happen. Simple things like JTs and JAs are pretty much all we can expect at this point.

[Byrth]

I definitely agree, and I think THF is infinitely more likely to get Triple Attack II for a 10% base between level 90 and 99 than a functional and fun TH system. Still, if anyone from SE is reading this (and they probably aren't, because it's in a sub-forum), I'd like to give them as many bullets in their gun as I can if they go to suggest it to the Dev team.

I'm (incredibly lazily) leveling THF at the moment, so I'd like to see it fixed too.

[noodles355]

Unsure how much I buy into the "TH9 is TH3+6".
A Sub-90 thief can get TH level up procs (With only TH2 traits). You could get TH7 by being Lv75 with Knife/Armlets and getting 3 level up procs, making you TH2+5, and you could be Lv90 with Knife/Armlets/Boots and one level up proc making you TH3+4.
TH2+5, TH3+4. Both are listed as "Level 7 trasure hunter effectiveness".

There is data about drop rates etc, but how much of it is post-update? Talks of traits = rerolls were around long before update. Some people seem to assume that they didn't change the traits on the TH update. There is no proof of it. They could have completely re-written the TH system. Before it would have given you 3 re-rolls, but now it is just a flat +%, for example.

[Insaniac]

Unsure how much I buy into the "TH9 is TH3+6".
A Sub-90 thief can get TH level up procs (With only TH2 traits). You could get TH7 by being Lv75 with Knife/Armlets and getting 3 level up procs, making you TH2+5, and you could be Lv90 with Knife/Armlets/Boots and one level up proc making you TH3+4.
TH2+5, TH3+4. Both are listed as "Level 7 trasure hunter effectiveness".

There is data about drop rates etc, but how much of it is post-update? Talks of traits = rerolls were around long before update. Some people seem to assume that they didn't change the traits on the TH update. There is no proof of it. They could have completely re-written the TH system. Before it would have given you 3 re-rolls, but now it is just a flat +%, for example.
TH feels the same as it used to. The difference between TH0 and TH3 seems obvious but the addition of gear and procs on top of that is very hard to discern. Even when you go from TH3 to TH10. The same as when we had TH2+2 which was nearly indistinguishable from base TH2.

[Arcon]

TH feels the same as it used to. The difference between TH0 and TH3 seems obvious but the addition of gear and procs on top of that is very hard to discern. Even when you go from TH3 to TH10. The same as when we had TH2+2 which was nearly indistinguishable from base TH2.

I don't know why so many people are saying this, it doesn't feel like that at all to me. As I said, I didn't do any testing (I would, if SE would let me pay them again), but from eyeballing it seemed like my TH6 was noticeably better than my friend's TH4 (both Lv90). I didn't notice a difference (or a similarity, or anything for that matter) on TH8~10, but that's because I usually only get that high on NMs, and I don't do them in quantities where it would be noticeable. But pop item farming, TH6~7 is common, and I usually do better than my friend with TH4~5.

I know that eyeballing isn't reliable, but I haven't seen any testing to the contrary either, and I never noticed the (lack of) effect that people attribute to TH gear.

[noodles355]

The difference between TH0 and TH3 seems obvious but the addition of gear and procs on top of that is very hard to discern.Re-read my first paragraph. TH3 seems obvious to you, suggesting traits are more significant than +TH gear, but TH3 is obtainable by a Lv75 Thief with Knife. TH3+0 or TH2+1, both are listed as "Level 3 effectiveness". You're contradicting yourself a bit: what you're saying would suggest that adding one TH item to a Lv75 thief would be significant (By virtue of TH3 seeming obvious), which goes against your claim that traits are strong and +TH gear is less significant.

[Karbuncle]

Re-read my first paragraph. TH3 seems obvious to you, suggesting traits are more significant than +TH gear, but TH3 is obtainable by a Lv75 Thief with Knife. TH3+0 or TH2+1, both are listed as "Level 3 effectiveness". You're contradicting yourself a bit: what you're saying would suggest that adding one TH item to a Lv75 thief would be significant (By virtue of TH3 seeming obvious), which goes against your claim that traits are strong and +TH gear is less significant.

I'm chalking up "TH2+1 vs TH3+0" displaying as "Th effectiveness level 3" to just lazy programming or now way to correctly word it via displayed message.

I don't want to believe a level 15THF when he gets TH can have the same level of TH Effectiveness as a level 90THF simply by upgrading TH on a mob twice.

Sorry If i'm reading you wrong.

[FrankReynolds]

After playing thf for about 4 years now, and parsing thousands of buggard and ladybug droprates the best increase i saw from using thief knife and hands was 2%, which went right in line with what i saw in the testing on alla. I'm totally open to the idea that it might be a flat 2% which would be significant on mobs that only have like a 1% droprate to begin with, but i have seen nothing since the update to make me belive that procing TH beyond the initial 3-5 has any real value. My experience has been that when i kill a mob with no procs i might get no drop. when i kill a mob with th i will probly get 1-2 seals, but if I kill it with no thf and proc yellow and blue, i will probably get full gear drops and 3-4 seals. Too be honest, if they don't give thf either:

1. A damage boost to make it competitive with other dd classes

2. A serious boost to steal / despoil to the point that i really wanna come thief for the gil / drops ( like to the point where people are arguing over who gets to be thf )

or

3. A boost to treasure hunter that makes it at least as powerful as procs ( think items that normally only drop once dropping multiple times )

I will probably just play war nin and blm from now on. I'm pretty tired of Spending crazy time in events to gear a job that can do all of its functions with only 3 pieces of gear ( 2 are super cheap on the AH) just as well. But then again, maybe this is SEs wacky way of weeding out the bandwagon thfs that just play it so they can get super rich off of beastcoins or w/e bullshit it is that they think we are stealing too much of.

[koanyan]

I would suggest one thing to have a better talk on TH or thief in general . Ask SE some information on how many :

-TH traits give us on % drop.
-TH gears give us on % drop.
-TH enhancement from fight give us on % drop.

With those info we can know what TH is really mean to do and how it work.

On another though , like nearly everyone said that fun to make us an enmity controller but with only way to steal enmity we can't control hate because over time we will finish with max hate , what when we are main tank isn't a problem , but when we are thf in alliance is a problem because we aren't the tank.

Instead of giving us an ability to remove hate(what some ppl asking) why not change trick attack and make it transfer a part of hate from thf to the one he TA , and with that we can control hate more easily.

For steal/despoil I think everyone have stated the good laugh of what Development Team are saying : your steal/despoil aren't successful enough so we will boost there success but we will not add anything worth stealing because else we will break economic market on Server . Good new to you development Team that already done : Cruor set , Dominion point weapon , item from gold chest (gear,weapon,spell,synthesis material) can be sell to NPC for an amount of gil who can go from 1K to 33K if not more or some be sell in AH for more than 50K.

So Camate if you can answer at least at first part that would be awesome and at least make us know what is the real influence we have on drop.

PS: Before ppl say SE will not answer , that cost nothing to ask and we can have a good surprise with an answer of what is the true % of TH.

[Laphine]

should post TH questions on the vana'diel misteries thread! lol anyone did that already? didn't follow it so much and i'm going to bed~

[Insaniac]

Re-read my first paragraph. TH3 seems obvious to you, suggesting traits are more significant than +TH gear, but TH3 is obtainable by a Lv75 Thief with Knife. TH3+0 or TH2+1, both are listed as "Level 3 effectiveness". You're contradicting yourself a bit: what you're saying would suggest that adding one TH item to a Lv75 thief would be significant (By virtue of TH3 seeming obvious), which goes against your claim that traits are strong and +TH gear is less significant.
A TH3 proc from a level 75 THF is just TH2+1. I'm sure SE just chose to display it as TH3 because people have been calling TH2+2 TH4 for years. It's entirely possible that the TH3 trait also counts as a +1 and SE chose to list it as a trait to mislead us for the sake of keeping THFs relevant. I mean.. I haven't seen drop rate increases to suggest a 3rd reroll on drops. That is the test I would like to see.. Trait TH3 vs Trait TH2. Maybe if we can prove it's worthless we will stop getting invites and SE will have to give us solid job growth!!

[Byrth]

The best way to prove that would be to kill a bunch of lesser colibri on THF to compare to our one strong sample.

[Insaniac]

How big of a sample would be needed to prove TH3 is or isn't a 3rd reroll? I would consider doing it but only if it's not a HUGE sample. I almost lost my mind doing mandau trials on those things. I'm afraid too many hours there would cause a meltdown.

[Laphine]

By the K's range i'd say? I don't think we need much to test if TH3 extends the known behavior of TH2. But if we are to test TH3+0 vs TH2+1, we will surely need some good numbers. Or not. If the difference is discrepant lol.

On this line of thought: I used to farm wild onions back in the day, with their current price craze and as oportunity to test TH a bit, i went down there last week. With TH2+2 i used to get close to 5 stacks/h, with TH3+3 i was expecting close to 6stacks/h. Stayed for only 1h (no patience for this anymore), but 6 stacks i got.

edit2: Ugh actually, this test won't cut it. I just noticed that even though i did get more onions, i actually killed more goblins. Seems like SE changed its drop rate when they rearranged mobs inside inner horutoto. My TH4 parse has about 130 gobs killed per hour, i killed 163 in 1h on this new one.

Edit: Oh and an interesting tidbit. The Wiki has wild onion with 20.9% drop rate with 116 drops out of 554 kills. Of course, we can never trust those numbers as we can't really tell if there are varying TH samples mixed in. But considering they are right, and applying the roll concept, the TH2 drop rate would become 50.5%. My 1560 kills parse has 50.13% drop rate with TH4. The drop rate on the wiki was not so far off then, and also, the effect from hands and knife were indeed small.

[Byrth]

Well, it depends what the goal is. You can see the sample we'd be working off of here (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/95489-TH-testing-final-results?p=3935668&viewfull=1#post3935668). To really confirm anything you're going to need a comparable sample size without TH procs, but we'd predict about a 68% drop rate for Feathers and about a 57% drop rate on Beaks.

[Laphine]

comparable sample size without TH procs
Which makes this incredibly hard now lol. Can't kill mindlessly and let a parse do the job.

[Insaniac]

My goal would be to prove within a reasonable margin of error that the TH3 trait is or isn't a reroll. Since it would be a 10% difference in drop rates what kind of sample size would I need for a 4% margin of error? Please forgive my math deficiency.

edit: Considering the alternative would be that TH3 is just TH+1 we better make that a 3% margin of error.

[Laphine]

I also don't know much on statistcs. Maybe i'm just saying shit here (so correct me, please~), but i think that if you parsed a 70% drop rate, and this sample had a 10% margin of error, we could very well conclude that TH3 is also a reroll. This is because the 11k parse is very solid. We would need lower margins of error if we didn't know TH2 so well.

[Insaniac]

I'm just looking for the absolute minimum amount of effort to come up with a solid result. =P

[Nebo]

I'm just looking for the absolute minimum amount of effort to come up with a solid result. =P

That would be for SE to just *gasp* tell us what it does.

I don't know why they think it is fun that we still don't know after all these years.

This is not fun.

[Byrth]

Approximately 90~100 kills should let you see the difference.

[Insaniac]

Approximately 90~100 kills should let you see the difference.Pfffft. Consider it done. I'll blast these down in the next couple days.

[Byrth]

Heh, okay! Remember to note which ones ding up to TH level 4!

Also, that was an approximation, the formula you're using is:

95% Confidence interval width = 1.96*SQRT(p*(1-p)/N)
Where p = Number of Feathers or Beaks / Number of Kills
and N = Number of Kills

So if you get 70/100 feathers, that's 1.96*SQRT(.7*.3/100) = +/-.09 (9%) for your 95% confidence interval width

[Laphine]

It's accepted that SAWS also triggers proc, right? Like, procs but doesn't show on log. Better not use stacked ws just to be safe as well.

I would help you to speed things up but i've been very busy these days :\

[noodles355]

non-stacked WS can proc too. You'd be best not WSing at all.

[Insaniac]

non-stacked WS can proc too. You'd be best not WSing at all.Yeah that's not happening. I'll just kill a few hundred to offset the possible hidden TH procs.

[noodles355]

You could theoretically get a hidden proc to TH4 on every mob. It'd be impossible to know if you were TH4 or TH3, and so the test would become somewhat worthless.

[Zirael]

Yeah that's not happening. I'll just kill a few hundred to offset the possible hidden TH procs.
If you feel bad having to hold TP @300, you can go /RNG and spam some ranged WSs, since I've never seen TH upgrade on Ranged attack :) I've been toying with Dhalmels in Buburimu Peninsula (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Buburimu_Peninsula) for some TH testing since they have 4 types of items to drop (and R/EX Dhalmel Saliva if you drop it each time), but my methodology sucks and I fall asleep easily. Also, I've sent you a message on FFXIAH with few more hints.

[Insaniac]

You could theoretically get a hidden proc to TH4 on every mob. It'd be impossible to know if you were TH4 or TH3, and so the test would become somewhat worthless.
For my purposes it won't be worthless. I'm not trying to crack the TH code any further than it has been already. I just want to see if TH3 (or TH3+1, it wont make much difference) is enough of an increase in drops to be a 3rd reroll or if the TH3 trait is really just TH2+1.

[Nakts]

If you feel bad having to hold TP @300, you can go /RNG and spam some ranged WSs, since I've never seen TH upgrade on Ranged attack :) I've been toying with Dhalmels in Buburimu Peninsula (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Buburimu_Peninsula) for some TH testing since they have 4 types of items to drop (and R/EX Dhalmel Saliva if you drop it each time), but my methodology sucks and I fall asleep easily. Also, I've sent you a message on FFXIAH with few more hints.

a ranged attack is a job ability type thing so TH is never effected or added with a ranged attack

[Karbuncle]

RA are only counted as "JA's/WS" for Beastmen (100% Shadows taken), and WS for Auto's (Ruby Light in Abyssea)

For players its just a ranged attack, (Does not take shadows 100%).

This is my belief anyway.

[Byrth]

Well, you still can't proc TH on a ranged attack, can you? You could just go around one-shotting low level monsters with ranged attacks if you wanted to make absolutely sure you only had one tier of TH.

[Insaniac]

Do we have a reasonably large sample from a low level mob to compare to?

[Laphine]

Enedin's for sure. I think the wiki still has his test. They are far from the 11k kills thorny provided tho.

[Coder]

non-stacked WS can proc too. You'd be best not WSing at all.

I am fairly sure that what people think are 'hidden procs' during WS are in fact procs off of melee attacks that don't show the added effect in the chat log because of a gear swap. Go try it out with an enspell on, swap gear and the effect doesn't show in the log. I'm pretty confident in saying that TH cannot proc on WS.

[Laphine]

You might be correct there Coder. But it sure makes sense that WSs trigger the effect, like slugshot with sleep bolts putting mobs to sleep. And it also makes sense that we could proc with WS, otherwise our "right to melee" would only be as long as we did the least damage possible to get more procs. Meaning SA/TA and gtfo. Of course, even with ws procs, there might be those that require their thieves to wear low level weapons so they can proc more, but at least we can have a complete performance in theory.

[Insaniac]

First batch. More to come.

184 kills with no visible TH procs.
105 feathers
57.06% drop rate with TH3

.... discuss.

[Laphine]

lol seems like it wasn't just wild onions. They either decreased the drop rate on more stuff/everything to place TH3 in (lol), or maybe TH3 does something completely different than the previous ones, or lol maybe it's broken?

A test synced to lower levels would do us good too i think.

[Insaniac]

I only see 2 options:

1: TH3 is actually just TH2+1
2: They globally decreased drop rates to balance things with TH3 since TH3 was really only added to keep THF relevant and not to increase the amount of treasure we get.

I'm leaning towards option 1 because option 2 would require a lot of man hours. We need a new TH2 test to compare too >.<

[Byrth]

1.96*SQRT(.5708*.4292/184) = +/-7.2%
So we can exclude 69% with 95% confidence.

Wow, this makes me suspect Treasure Hunter III is actually just TH+1 as well. That's a huge blow to THF. Now the validity of your job basically rides on whatever the TH proc system gives you, an effect so weak that it has never been detected. Better start leveling BRD so you can BRD/THF! lol

SE is such a bag of cocks, haha. Seriously? It would have broken the game to give THF another real tier of TH?

[Byrth]

After thinking about this for a few more minutes, I guess we could ask "What does Treasure Hunter +1 even do?" The options seem to be:
1) Minor increase in drop rate, on the order of 1/1024
2) Perhaps normal TH doesn't affect Rare item drop rates, but Treasure Hunter +1 does.
3) Some other variation of 2.
4) Gives a percentage chance at a third re-roll, which would ultimately be indistinguishable from 1.

[Laphine]

I kinda prefer to illude myself thinking that they did something wrong lol. A simple +1 is really messed up...

As to make it 1%, shouldn't it be 10/1024 there Byrth? or do you think TH+1 is actually +0.1%? lol

[noodles355]

2: They globally decreased drop rates to balance things with TH3 since TH3 was really only added to keep THF relevant and not to increase the amount of treasure we get.Could just level sync to a level where you only get TH2 to test this.
Edit: Did you count coli beaks too?

[Karbuncle]

Could some items have a "Cap" to increased drop rate? Hell could all items have some "Cap" to maximum TH Effectiveness?

I'm proposing a question i know would be hell to test... I'd do level 75 sync first, kill another batch of colibri and check their drop rate...

I'll save my judgement on this for the time being... I don't want to be angry about THF anymore.

[Byrth]

I kinda prefer to illude myself thinking that they did something wrong lol. A simple +1 is really messed up...

As to make it 1%, shouldn't it be 10/1024 there Byrth? or do you think TH+1 is actually +0.1%? lol

I was thinking 1/1024 or 1/256. The reason I think this is because of our other model of TH. If TH+1 increased drop rate additively, TH1/TH2 would magnify the effect and we should be able to pick it out instead of consistently not seeing a damned difference, lol.

[Insaniac]

Could just level sync to a level where you only get TH2 to test this.
Edit: Did you count coli beaks too?

I was thinking I could just ???/THF.

I did count beaks but I didn't note when they dropped on a TH4 kill. I'm keeping a count of TH4 kills separate so I can post numbers on that when I get a few hundred. (Currently I only have 26 ;_; ). I wanted to keep tracking the TH4 drops as simple as possible.

One other number I was able to come up with while doing this was a 5~% proc rate on my relic damage hidden effect. There had been some talk of increased proc rates but I don't know if that had been debunked yet.

I had 32 procs in 2052 swings. Adjusting for 19% Triple attack 13% double attack and dual wield (Relic damage can't proc on the 2nd or 3rd hit of multi-attack rounds or off hand swings) I came up with 665~ procable swings. If someone more mathy wants to check that, please do.

I'll do another 200 or so kills tomorrow.

[Byrth]

That would actually be ~691 proccable swings, because TA procs before DA. Same conclusion though, it's about 5%.

[Insaniac]

Gah!.. I thought it was the other way around.

[noodles355]

I was thinking I could just ???/THF.

I did count beaks but I didn't note when they dropped on a TH4 kill. I'm keeping a count of TH4 kills separate so I can post numbers on that when I get a few hundred. (Currently I only have 26 ;_; ). I wanted to keep tracking the TH4 drops as simple as possible.

One other number I was able to come up with while doing this was a 5~% proc rate on my relic damage hidden effect. There had been some talk of increased proc rates but I don't know if that had been debunked yet.

I had 32 procs in 2052 swings. Adjusting for 19% Triple attack 13% double attack and dual wield (Relic damage can't proc on the 2nd or 3rd hit of multi-attack rounds or off hand swings) I came up with 665~ procable swings. If someone more mathy wants to check that, please do.

I'll do another 200 or so kills tomorrow.I don't think it's a hidden affect on the relic it's self.
People are seeing an increase in level ups using SA and TA.
People are seeing an increase in level ups using Relic weapons on their 2~3x Dmg proc.
People are seeing an increase in level ups using Empyrean when ODD is up.
People are seeing an increase in level ups on SA when using AF3 hands.
People are seeing an increase in level ups on weaker monsters.

What do all of these have in common? You're doing more damage. I've been thinking this for a while now, but more and more it's looking like the more damage you do on a hit, the greater the chance to lvl up TH. Would explain all of the above. I find it very unlikely that they would add a hidden affect to Mandau that rises the chance to proc a level up, concidering it is also a brd and rdm weapon. Ditto Twatstar and Dnc.

[Insaniac]

I don't think it's a hidden affect on the relic it's self.
People are seeing an increase in level ups using SA and TA.
People are seeing an increase in level ups using Relic weapons on their 2~3x Dmg proc.
People are seeing an increase in level ups using Empyrean when ODD is up.
People are seeing an increase in level ups on SA when using AF3 hands.
People are seeing an increase in level ups on weaker monsters.

What do all of these have in common? You're doing more damage. I've been thinking this for a while now, but more and more it's looking like the more damage you do on a hit, the greater the chance to lvl up TH. Would explain all of the above. I find it very unlikely that they would add a hidden affect to Mandau that rises the chance to proc a level up, concidering it is also a brd and rdm weapon. Ditto Twatstar and Dnc.
You've misunderstood. I'm only talking about the hidden 3x damage proc on Mandau. Nothing to do with TH. It was just something unrelated that I figured I would test while I was out there.

[noodles355]

Ah sorry, thought you meant you were getting 5% more TH procs with mandau and someone had told you about a hidden TH affect.
I'm still interested in the more dmg=more chance of proc idea though.

[Insaniac]

Round 2

Got cut short by wind weather and an army of BSTs.

104/157= 66.24%

Drop rates were higher today. Not Drastically higher I guess for the small sample size but it still kinda surprised me. The only difference between today and yesterday was sanction. It's not unreasonable to think that the proper crystal effect would increase drop rates. Do we know if Thorny had sanction during his parses?

Running total - 209/341 = 61.29%

[noodles355]

Could you start posting Beak drops as well? They're also important.

[Byrth]

Sorry, I said that backwards but did the math in the right order. TA procs before DA.

[Insaniac]

Could you start posting Beak drops as well? They're also important.For the purpose of this test I don't see why they are important but if you insist I will start posting how many dropped. I'm not keeping track of how many of them dropped on TH4 kills though. That's just more work for me.

[Byrth]

Round 2

Got cut short by wind weather and an army of BSTs.

104/157= 66.24%

Drop rates were higher today. Not Drastically higher I guess for the small sample size but it still kinda surprised me. The only difference between today and yesterday was sanction. It's not unreasonable to think that the proper crystal effect would increase drop rates. Do we know if Thorny had sanction during his parses?

Running total - 209/341 = 61.29%

I don't know whether he did or not, and word on the street is that he quit. If his sample size was that large and data collection was automated, I think it's fairly safe to say he probably didn't for most of it. Your two samples are almost exclusive, I think, in that the statistically exclude each other. So Sanction likely has an effect? Not something I would have predicted.

[Insaniac]

I don't know whether he did or not, and word on the street is that he quit. If his sample size was that large and data collection was automated, I think it's fairly safe to say he probably didn't for most of it. Your two samples are almost exclusive, I think, in that the statistically exclude each other. So Sanction likely has an effect? Not something I would have predicted.
Yeah it was pretty surprising. I'll go without sanction next time and see if the drop rates go back down. If sanction does affect drop rates that opens a whole new can of worms. I'm gonna start a new thread for this stuff when I get my next batch of kills in since it seems like it's going to end up being more of an undertaking and is pretty far off topic.

[Laphine]

yeah let's go back to the whining! lol

[Arcon]

I am fairly sure that what people think are 'hidden procs' during WS are in fact procs off of melee attacks that don't show the added effect in the chat log because of a gear swap. Go try it out with an enspell on, swap gear and the effect doesn't show in the log. I'm pretty confident in saying that TH cannot proc on WS.

This sounds like a sound theory. I'll try to do some testing for this when possible.

Also, I'll start mass murdering Lesser Colibris now. I won't do any gear changes or weapon skills either, just to make sure. I'll do THF90/NIN45 for TH3, WAR90/THF45 for TH2 and WAR90/SAM45 for TH0. On WAR I'll be able to WS as well, so that'll be fun. Only TH1 might be tricky, which we wouldn't need, if it behaves as expected, but would still be nice to have a sample, in case it's something completely different. I might delevel WAR to 89, just to check it out, then I'll get back to you.

[Insaniac]

This sounds like a sound theory. I'll try to do some testing for this when possible.

Also, I'll start mass murdering Lesser Colibris now. I won't do any gear changes or weapon skills either, just to make sure. I'll do THF90/NIN45 for TH3, WAR90/THF45 for TH2 and WAR90/SAM45 for TH0. On WAR I'll be able to WS as well, so that'll be fun. Only TH1 might be tricky, which we wouldn't need, if it behaves as expected, but would still be nice to have a sample, in case it's something completely different. I might delevel WAR to 89, just to check it out, then I'll get back to you.

Started a new thread specifically for this TH testing. POST UR DATUHS HUR! (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12798-Treasure-Hunter-Testing)

[Phen]

Okay, ill get a ton of flames but who cares. If they go towards hate control what are some exact things we would need?

-something that lowers the cap of hate for a party/alliance member to something like 80~90% of cap
-something like a 50% trick attack (doesnt game break because you are now behind the tank for conal etc)
-as stated before separated collab/accomp
-something like add 10~20% of your hate to someone else

that said i would prefer more DD/general utility updates since Dancer can utility and damage

[Karbuncle]

Okay, ill get a ton of flames but who cares. If they go towards hate control what are some exact things we would need?

-something that lowers the cap of hate for a party/alliance member to something like 80~90% of cap
-something like a 50% trick attack (doesnt game break because you are now behind the tank for conal etc)
-as stated before separated collab/accomp
-something like add 10~20% of your hate to someone else

that said i would prefer more DD/general utility updates since Dancer can utility and damage

If i could dig it up i would, But i posted a slew of ideas "in line" with the "vision" SE has for THF. Its somewhere in this thread not too far back :X

[Laphine]

the simplest hate management update i can think of is giving acco/cola 25' range and ally-wide scope. Doesn't even need to change their recasts. With this they would go from a nearly useless status to a somewhat useful one.

[Karbuncle]

I don't know, Expanding their targets from 5 people to 17 would hurt it too, because 1 THF across 17 people and a 1 minute timer for 25% of the Enmity is not going to be a lot of enmity, definitely not "controlling the tides of battle" as SE wants.

Also i found the suggestions i made earlier.

[Mirage]

I particularly like Disperse, Frame, Tricks of the trade, and True stealth. I also agree with reduction of steal and mug timers. In a game where you basically gain many times more gil per minute than mug grants you every 15 minutes, I can't see how having mug on a timer of less than 5 minutes would be a problem.

[Laphine]

I agree, but i think doing those 2 things would help quite a bit (but yeah, not a complete fix). Using RNG as an example. We are hardly in the same pt they are. In fights that RNG prowess is abused, RNGs will get hate. Against Odin, for one, i was mostly thf, and i was never in the RNGs party. I actually enjoyed it because if i were in the RNGs party i wouldn't be properly buffed. Even if i was in their party, chances are i wouldn't be to helpful at all, because they would be too far from Odin for colla to take effect.

[Insaniac]

I'm gonna wait for the official translation before my head officially explodes but it looks like SE is giving BLU triple attack, gilfinder, and.... treasure hunter. All via setting new spells.

[Karbuncle]

I'm gonna wait for the official translation before my head officially explodes but it looks like SE is giving BLU triple attack, gilfinder, and.... treasure hunter. All via setting new spells.

TH1 and Gilfinder i won't care about, since those can both be accessed via support job

Triple attack? SE can suck my left (censored) if they don't give us at least Triple Attack II then. Stop whoring our uniqueness -.-.

I understand they want THF To be considered completely useless outside of Lootwhore, but they've already succeeded in that, they can at least stop pouring salt on our wounds. is Triple Attack II too much to ask?

You know, Spankwusler (a.k.a RDM) has been given a new name by GG, I think I'm giving THF a new name, From here on, we are no longer "Thieves" we're "Lootmonger". Please refer to the THF job as "Lootmonger" from this point on.

LTM for short. This will alleviate any confusion new players have when selecting the job expecting it to be useful for anything short of randomly making a loot pool bigger

[Laphine]

lootmonger ftl...

[Byrth]

Based on Arcon/Insaniac/Thorny's data... maybe /LTM onry. xD

[Laphine]

ugh yeah..
/cry

[Karbuncle]

Based on Arcon/Insaniac/Thorny's data... maybe /LTM onry. xD

Sadder truths never spoken. i love once we start de-mystifying Treasure Hunter, the more apparent it becomes LTM is useless. Probably why SE never told us how TH Works, because once they did, LTM would truly be a dead job!

[Insaniac]

The thing I'm looking at.. yes, BLU is probably only gonna get TH1 but they have access to the TH+1 Tarutaru sash giving them potentially /LTM numbers (probably main LTM numbers based on TH testing) without having to even sub the job. That would make 3 jobs now that all have access to the same drop rate increase as LTM without even needing it leveled as a sub. Then you have the jobs that can sub LTM and still maintain most or all of their usefulness. SE needs to come out and tell us what exactly about LTM TH makes it better than TH on other jobs which seems to produce the exact same drop rates OR they can TAKE ONE LOOK AT WHAT WE ACTUALLY WANT and give us a reason to continue playing this job.

You know what.. Lootmonger doesn't even fit since so many other jobs can accomplish the same thing we do.. How about Enmity Gimp? EGP?

[Karbuncle]

We're just a nameless dead job If thats the case. LTM is good for now me thinks, We can at least LTM with a 0.002% better rate than the next leading brand...

Really is sad looking at the current state of our job, how ineffective TH+ Gear is, and how useless we are outside of that 1 trait, which isn't even so amazing once you demystify it.

Whats really sickening is SE giving us TH3, and it may actually just be f**king Treasure Hunter +1, which is a giant insult to the job when the difference between TH3 and TH12 is hideously unnoticeable.

Honestly feel like the DEV team is just hoping we fall for the "placebo effect" that is TH4+, in hopes it keeps LTM relevant and they don't have to work on improving it, despite our cries that the job is dead/dying, and these recent tests showing all that we thought keeping us alive, is actually not all that great.

[Laphine]

how about Waste of Memory Space? lol

[Karbuncle]

WMS? Seems like a long job name, But so terribly accurate.

[Zirael]

I'm gonna wait for the official translation before my head officially explodes but it looks like SE is giving BLU triple attack, gilfinder, and.... treasure hunter. All via setting new spells.
Gilfinder is already there (requires 2 spells set for 8 points, pretty expensive, but it's there). http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Gilfinder
Also, anyone can get this trait by using Bandolero Scarf.
But if now BLU is getting Triple Attack as well, we've been slapped yet again. Where's my 10% Quadruple Attack at this point, I ask?
As for Treasure Hunter being given out again, I've stopped caring. With Tarutaru Sash and /thf or RNG/ quite few jobs have all the TH they'd ever need. People are already content dual boxing their empy weapon farms with pocket WHM/THF, so... whatever.

Edit: We'll get it translated in few hours probably, but what google.translate is telling me, it looks like BLU will be able to 'upgrade' their combo bonuses by setting additional spells, so Double Attack-> Triple Attack and Gilfinder->Treasure Hunter (similar to how BLU can get Dual Wield II by stacking more spells giving the same bonus).

[Byrth]

If it makes you guys feel any better, Dancer's update notes (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/24527/dnc-response-from-the-devs)were bullshit too. They basically told us that they weren't going to address any of the real issues with the job and again only leave the "generic DD" route open to themselves. I guess we're going to continue to have two sub-par generic dagger DDs next update.

[Karbuncle]

they're clearly terrified of the raw power dagger possesses.

I don't know, i sit here hoping and praying they're just joking around, and that they finally wake up and help these jobs...

[Insaniac]

If it makes you guys feel any better, Dancer's update notes (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/24527/dnc-response-from-the-devs)were bullshit too. They basically told us that they weren't going to address any of the real issues with the job and again only leave the "generic DD" route open to themselves. I guess we're going to continue to have two sub-par generic dagger DDs next update.
It's funny. Most of the other job specific replies have had some amount of hope in them. DNC and THF both basically got.. "We know what you want but you can't have it." I will say at least some the reason DNCs can't have what they want were moderately valid. The THF replies were "You can't have what you want for reasons that make no sense and we won't give you anything to look forward to either."

[Byrth]

Their logic behind refusing to split Waltz timers is shakey at best, in my opinion. DNC isn't a WHM replacement even if they can heal as well as them in some situations. Any serious fight is still going to leave Dancer at the curb because you don't want to TP feed hard monsters. Making us incapable of main healing in any kind of endgame situation is going a step too far.

I mean, I have a mule with THF, BRD, RDM, and WHM at 90 (along with some other things). Did I ever bring him THF to even level 75 endgame events and heal him with my Dancer, even back when I assumed that TH3 added another trait level? Nope! Because Waltzing at all seriously cuts into Dancer's damage (Saber Dance) and in the end I'd have a smoother and more enjoyable time DNC+healer than THF+DNC or even THF+RDM.

[Insaniac]

Their logic behind refusing to split Waltz timers is shakey at best, in my opinion. DNC isn't a WHM replacement even if they can heal as well as them in some situations. Any serious fight is still going to leave Dancer at the curb because you don't want to TP feed hard monsters. Making us incapable of main healing in any kind of endgame situation is going a step too far.

I mean, I have a mule with THF, BRD, RDM, and WHM at 90 (along with some other things). Did I ever bring him THF to even level 75 endgame events and heal him with my Dancer, even back when I assumed that TH3 added another trait level? Nope! Because Waltzing at all seriously cuts into Dancer's damage (Saber Dance) and in the end I'd have a smoother and more enjoyable time DNC+healer than THF+DNC or even THF+RDM.I'm not saying all of it makes perfect sense but it makes more sense than "We didn't give you subtle blow because you can proc TH" or "We can't make good items to steal because then people might be encouraged to use the JA steal in a way that we patched 4 years ago." or "Aura steal having it's own timer would be overpowered even though BLU gets a spell that does pretty much the same thing on a 56s max timer" The DNC reply is full of "Ehhhhh?" and the THF reply is full of "WTTTFFFFFF!?!?"

[Byrth]

There are times when I wonder if the responses sound equally stupid in japanese.

[Laphine]

I really want an official job update announcement now. If they are to kill me, i prefer a quick death.

[Insaniac]

There are times when I wonder if the responses sound equally stupid in japanese.Yeah, lol. Maybe the ability to properly BS is lost in translation.

[Nebo]

NA BLU thread: In case you missed it:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11528-FINAL-FANTASY-XI-Job-Adjustmentｓ-Manifesto-Blue-Mage?p=170181&viewfull=1#post170181


The below job traits are set so they can be enhanced.

Dual Wield/Fast Cast/Store TP/HPmax/MPmax/Auto Regen/Counter/Magic Burst Bonus/Skill Chain Bonus

While it is not possible to enhance all of the above job traits at level 90, with further level cap increase and the addition of new blue magic spells it will be possible to enhance them.

Also, when double attack/gilfinder are enhanced, we are planning to have them change into triple attack/treasure hunter.

So yeah, they will be able to set Triple Attack and Treasure Hunter.

Maybe this is all part of their plan to justify giving THF a DD update or two? Give everything we have away so that everyone won't cry becuase we have all these neato unique things AND we can DD?

...I don't know....this is....I don't know

[Karbuncle]

Heres hoping for Triple Attack II?

yah, I'm just going to continue to mirror Isaniac from this point. Its just complete "WTF". I think my biggest head-desk moment was when they said "no subtle blow for you because we think it would benefit you too much because you already melee for TH ugprades" ?

I feel more sorry for the Reps here, Who have to deliver these messages to us. Because remember, the Reps are just messengers... not the designers.

Maybe i'll be surprised and they'll actually consider making THF not useless some day...? With the obvious notice of TH beyond 2 being almost completely worthless... its just a very dark day for THF. Honestly it feels like TH upgrades and TH3 was just SE trying to give us a placebo, so to speak, hoping with how ignorant we are of TH everyone would still think THF main is best for TH, while its true to some extent, /THF will get you incredibly similar results after TH2...

Augh i just don't want to think about it anymore, it depresses me the dev team still refuses to listen to their customers, even after all this forum nonsense, we still have absolutely no opinion or influence on the direction of our jobs.

It honestly feels like... They have our job planned to 99 already, and they refuse to change it... Why do these forums even exist?

[noodles355]

Fucking lol at the dev teams responses to Dnc.
"No we wont make Chocobo Jig AoE because there is no sacrifice so it would be overpowered". Hi. My name is Chocobo Mazurka. I do exactly that already.

[Arcon]

Maybe i'll be surprised and they'll actually consider making THF not useless some day...? With the obvious notice of TH beyond 2 being almost completely worthless... its just a very dark day for THF. Honestly it feels like TH upgrades and TH3 was just SE trying to give us a placebo, so to speak, hoping with how ignorant we are of TH everyone would still think THF main is best for TH, while its true to some extent, /THF will get you incredibly similar results after TH2...

I'm starting to think that the reason why SE doesn't wanna give us details about game mechanics is because once people figure out how stupid they are, they'll rage even more than now. SE probably didn't expect people to do testing to find out just how ridiculous it is.

[Alaik]

Fucking lol at the dev teams responses to Dnc.
"No we wont make Chocobo Jig AoE because there is no sacrifice so it would be overpowered". Hi. My name is Chocobo Mazurka. I do exactly that already.

I wish flee being AoE or not was all THF had to worry about.

[Khajit]

So...Is there even any legitimate reason for thf to exist anymore?
With the advent of the latest TH testing I honestly cant think of any. SA is almost impossible to use in proper setups/gear and has is about to be given unrestricted to war anyway,TA is being given away, Aura steal being useful is a lulzy idea,Th from thf main means shit on multiple levels now, Dnc has been altered to cover everything else thf has left that's important/useful(mug and collab aren't useful enough for anyone to care), flee doesn't really accomplish anything ingame during fights plus we teleport everywhere now with ease; its not like it inflicts a heavy dot on the mob while you're running.

[Laphine]

thf exists so we can have a job with the letter T~

[Alaik]

White Mage says their lower case t was taken from our Upper Case too. Get some Laphine!

[Babekeke]

So...Is there even any legitimate reason for thf to exist anymore?
With the advent of the latest TH testing I honestly cant think of any. SA is almost impossible to use in proper setups/gear and has is about to be given unrestricted to war anyway,TA is being given away, Aura steal being useful is a lulzy idea,Th from thf main means shit on multiple levels now, Dnc has been altered to cover everything else thf has left that's important/useful(mug and collab aren't useful enough for anyone to care), flee doesn't really accomplish anything ingame during fights plus we teleport everywhere now with ease; its not like it inflicts a heavy dot on the mob while you're running.

There seems to just be a big merger of jobs. Yes, other jobs have got some THF abilities, but we in return have got Dual Wield. And don't tell me that we all didn't want this for years!
OK, maybe we lost more than we gained, but still...

[Arcon]

There seems to just be a big merger of jobs. Yes, other jobs have got some THF abilities, but we in return have got Dual Wield. And don't tell me that we all didn't want this for years!
OK, maybe we lost more than we gained, but still...

We got nothing. Dual Wield is used to DD, but to DD, the only reasonable sub is /NIN, which overrides our native Dual Wield. If they give us a higher level of DW that doesn't force us to /NIN, this might be a legitimate argument, but as of right now, it's not.

[noodles355]

White Mage says their lower case t was taken from our Upper Case too. Get some Laphine!
Need a raise? I'll flee right to you! =^.^=

[Insaniac]

I hope this isn't what I think it is....


Lv91 Abuzoatori dark
to absorb the good status of the enemy.

I might be jumping to conclusions cause google translate isn't the most reliable thing in the world but if this a magic based aura steal I may lose my mind. Not because it doesn't make sense for DRK but because SE just finished telling us aura steal on a shortened timer would be broken. I'm getting ahead of myself...I'll hold my rage 'til later when the official translation comes out.

[Karbuncle]

That seems really hard to misconstrue.

Quite frankly, BLU already has 2 Aura Steal Abilities, one of them even Drains HP. Giving another to DRK won't shock me, and its just further proof they're either hypocritical or just hate THF.

Why do they hate this job so much...?

[Byrth]

Not to mention that there are only a handful of statuses you can actually steal with Aura Steal, lol. Most of the time you're just forcing them to wear off.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, Thats always fun too. Wanna steal that? Oh, Too bad, Its on a list of "unstealable".

[Babekeke]

We got nothing. Dual Wield is used to DD, but to DD, the only reasonable sub is /NIN, which overrides our native Dual Wield. If they give us a higher level of DW that doesn't force us to /NIN, this might be a legitimate argument, but as of right now, it's not.

You completely missed the boat. Before we got native DW, /nin was the only reasonable sub to DD with. Since we got native DW, it opens up /war as the best DD sub. Especially in a situation such as Voidwatch where you won't be top of the hate list (because our damage sucks). Yes, /NIN gives better survivability, but /WAR wins in most situations now

[Karbuncle]

You completely missed the boat. Before we got native DW, /nin was the only reasonable sub to DD with. Since we got native DW, it opens up /war as the best DD sub. Especially in a situation such as Voidwatch where you won't be top of the hate list (because our damage sucks). Yes, /NIN gives better survivability, but /WAR wins in most situations now

WAR I believe is the best DD sub job right now, because Dual Wield II/III are only 5% Apart and Berserk/Dbl-atk/general-War-things make up for that, I believe this is true.

However i feel his general argument, THF is useless, Is quite accurate. Until the differences between TH2 and TH20 are known/useful, The job is meaningless to bring unless you're extremely OCD about having every last 0.000% drop buff.

[Laphine]

it's a 10% difference actually karb. Even so, the difference between /war and /nin is very small.

Also (just nitpick), on no DW age, war always always the best dd sub on non-tpburn situations/gods level stuff.

[Babekeke]

it's 10% difference actually karb. Even so, the difference between /war and /nin is very small.

Also, just nitpick, on no DW age, war always always the best dd sub on non-tpburn situations/gods level stuff.

Yes, but post DW, it's enhanced even more with the off-hand hit on WS, stats from 2 daggers, and of course, the 15% faster attacks. Not to mention being able to cap haste as /war now (with haste, 2x march and merited haste samba). Without native DW, /war only reached 76.5%. This also shows that the DW3 from /NIN when you have full haste support only reduces the amount of tp you gain, and won't make you swing any faster. (so don't bother with boomerang if you have full haste support ;p )

[Phen]

The initial reports from Japanese players on the dark spell is that its magical aura steal and if you nether void its two buffs. Our merit re-do for aura steal better be like damn horrid roar or the dev team is full of all kinds of bs about balance.

Also on the /war /nin discussion dont discount the power of subtle blow for not killing your party members and of course the ever present usefulness of utsu.

[Insaniac]

Quite frankly, BLU already has 2 Aura Steal Abilities, one of them even Drains HP. Giving another to DRK won't shock me, and its just further proof they're either hypocritical or just hate THF.Yeah the spell itself isn't what bothers me. It makes sense as something a DRK would be able to do and I wouldn't really call aura steal a core THF ability. It's the fact that SE is now basically the guy we work with who owed us money, told us he didn't have it, and shows up the next day wearing a new pair of shoes. I feel our intelligence is being insulted... forgive me if that's a bit over dramatic but are we not supposed to notice shit like this? The reason for the aura steal timer was bullshit to begin with but they could have at least waited a while before they completely contradicted themselves.

[Karbuncle]

I do kinda feel like they expect us to be just too stupid to realize whats going on.

Maybe we're just understanding it all wrong, and maybe they'll actually do something potentially good with THF? I'm trying not to be too pessimistic.. honest -.-

[DebbieGibson]

I don't understand why the same ability being shared between multiple jobs is a bad thing

[Insaniac]

I don't understand why the same ability being shared between multiple jobs is a bad thing
Read the posts. No one is complaining about DRK getting the ability but SE told us about a month ago that they couldn't lower the timer on aura steal because it would be unbalanced. I highly doubt the recast on this spell is going to be 5 minutes.

[Karbuncle]

I don't understand why the same ability being shared between multiple jobs is a bad thing

What insaniac said!

[Sortis]

Howdy! We spoke to the development team about your feedback on thief and they provided some commentary. The below is a compilation of responses to both the English and Japanese suggestions/feedback. Hopefully it will give you a better idea of what is planned for thief in the future.

With the large amount of job adjustment discussion going on we have A LOT of feedback to sort through, so while this might not answer every single thing being discussed at the moment, we will try our best to update when we can. Likewise, we will be making our rounds to other job related threads as well!

So, without further ado…



By adding attractive items to monsters, we fear that it would be re-creating the scenario from the past regarding beastcoins (stealing and then hiding right after), making this pretty difficult to implement. If there were a good countermeasure for this it could work, but currently revamping or adding items to monsters is quite difficult.



That’s what Aura Steal is for! The effects stolen by Aura Steal are essentially the raw stats that the monster possesses.



We believe making Aura Steal a separate ability would be over-powered. If we did do this, it’s likely that its use on notorious monsters would be removed and it would have even less of an effect than it does now.



Though we haven’t decided if it will be Aura Steal or not, we do have some rough plans for adding some kind of additional effect to Despoil.



We are looking into separating the two. However, we are close to reaching a point where there are too many recast timers going on simultaneously, so this isn't something we can implement right away.



While thieves possess superior stats for all of the above, we do understand your concerns. I apologize that I can’t go into detail about specific abilities, but we are planning to make adjustments so that thieves are really able to shine.



Due to the fact that normal attacks now increase the effects of Treasure Hunter, we chose to forgo the addition of Subtle Blow as a trade off.



Don’t worry, it will be separate!

If you don't want people hiding right after a steal then make the monsters that have really sweet steal items have true sight....>.> correct me if i'm wrong but wouldn't that completely solve that problem?

[Karbuncle]

Get out of here with your logic!

Everyone knows that doesn't work.

[DebbieGibson]

Read the posts. No one is complaining about DRK getting the ability but SE told us about a month ago that they couldn't lower the timer on aura steal because it would be unbalanced. I highly doubt the recast on this spell is going to be 5 minutes.

Probably won't work on NMs

[Karbuncle]

Could be, But doesn't both of BLU's current spells work on NMs? They can be resisted, but I'm almost sure they work. I see no reason DRK's wont... But then again, We won't know until its out.

[Insaniac]

Probably won't work on NMs
You can't use "probably" unless you are basing it on some sort of evidence. There's no reason at all to think this wouldn't work on NMs. Is there any spell/ability in the game that all NMs are just globally immune to? The only thing I can think of is the death effect from zantetsuken.

[DebbieGibson]

You can't use "probably" unless you are basing it on some sort of evidence. There's no reason at all to think this wouldn't work on NMs. Is there any spell/ability in the game that all NMs are just globally immune to? The only thing I can think of is the death effect from zantetsuken.

Evidence is the fact they said if they made aura steal it's own ability it wouldn't work on NMs. So for the drk spell:
A) It will likely have a recast similar to steal.
or
B) It will not work on NMs or have additional restrictions if it's less than 5 mins

edit:
or
C) They don't care since drk is a DD job and therefore its ok for them to steal buffs more often than thf, if they were trying to buff their damage.

[Arcon]

Yes, but post DW, it's enhanced even more with the off-hand hit on WS, stats from 2 daggers, and of course, the 15% faster attacks. Not to mention being able to cap haste as /war now (with haste, 2x march and merited haste samba). Without native DW, /war only reached 76.5%. This also shows that the DW3 from /NIN when you have full haste support only reduces the amount of tp you gain, and won't make you swing any faster. (so don't bother with boomerang if you have full haste support ;p )

Did THF get DWII? I remember reading something about it, but don't see it anywhere online right now.

Anyway, even if they did that's still 10% difference. And that is massive, /WAR won't come near that bonus, not with Berserk and Double Attack and Aggressor. Why? Because I'm being realistic. You never have BRD/WHM and DNC with you in a party. I almost never have either.

THF/NIN with Suppanomimi, Raider's Boomerang and Nusku's Sash (max Dual Wield, except Auric Dagger) still needs 67% Haste to cap. With 25% from gear that still requires 42% magical Haste. That means you still need a BRD/WHM with Langeleik and +2 hands to get to cap. If you have that, good for you. Now your THF/NIN is almost perfect. THF/WAR swings almsot 20% slower now. Means when THF/NIN does 5 hits, THF/WAR does 4 hits. Double Attack gives you up to 8.4% extra hits outside of Abyssea and up to 6.9% extra hits inside Abyssea due to Apocalypse Atma (assuming you have no Double Attack gear, if you do the difference is even smaller). Effectively it means that THF/NIN still lands 17.5% more hits than THF/WAR (at least) in the same time. Do you think Berserk gives you 17.5% more damage? (Hint: no)

Oh, and Dual Wield, if not over cap, gives more TP than you lose for any relevant value in a time interval. I don't even know if it still reduces TP gain after cap, depends if it's applied before or after Haste. Anyone know which it is?

Saying THF/WAR can cap haste now is true but misleading. It won't happen in any amount to be relevant for comparison between the two subjob choices. Regardless, I wouldn't sub WAR on THF other than to post spike damage WS screenshots, which I'm sure plenty of people are doing. And regardless of that, even under the best of circumstances the difference is marginal at best. Hence, THF still got nothing. The only thing native Dual Wield is good for is so it doesn't unequip my offhand weapon when I change to /BLM for warp when I'm doing quests or something. Although I wouldn't be surprised if SE actually used that as an excuse why they're not giving THF anything else.

[Sortis]

Get out of here with your logic!

Everyone knows that doesn't work.

I have only played 66 levels of THF but i'm fairly certain hiding doesn't work on true sight mobs...right?

[Karbuncle]

I have only played 66 levels of THF but i'm fairly certain hiding doesn't work on true sight mobs...right?

Hiding does not work on True sight. In case you missed my joke, it was that your point was logical and god forbid the Devs look at anything logically.

And Arcon, Yes, I tested and proved THF got Dual Wield II, Its somewhere here in these forums, But i don't recall where, I added it to ffxiclopedia as well.

Edit: Can i be upset they're giving Subtle Blow to Automatons now and still refuse to give it to THF? I'm happy for Automatons but man :(

[Insaniac]

Evidence is the fact they said if they made aura steal it's own ability it wouldn't work on NMs. So for the drk spell:
A) It will likely have a recast similar to steal.
or
B) It will not work on NMs or have additional restrictions if it's less than 5 mins

edit:
or
C) They don't care since drk is a DD job and therefore its ok for them to steal buffs more often than thf, if they were trying to buff their damage.
Using SEs BSing as evidence lol. Anyway.. there's no good reason to believe either before the spell is released.

And yes Arcon THF did get DWII. I also tested that myself. I'm thinking we'll get at least DWIII native by 99 which will be nice but for now /NIN still kills /WAR in almost every situation.

[Sortis]

Hiding does not work on True sight. In case you missed my joke, it was that your point was logical and god forbid the Devs look at anything logically.

And Arcon, Yes, I tested and proved THF got Dual Wield II, Its somewhere here in these forums, But i don't recall where, I added it to ffxiclopedia as well.

Edit: Can i be upset they're giving Subtle Blow to Automatons now and still refuse to give it to THF? I'm happy for Automatons but man :(

It just wasn't a direct reply so I was wondering if that was aimed elsewhere =P oh and *waves* I talked to you when I first came back to the game about a month ago, not sure if you remember me sending you a random tell asking about PLD :D yep thanks again for helping me out. So back to the topic at hand, now that someone with a minimal grasp on how THF works has solved the "crappy loot steal problem" ummm do I get a cookie from the devs? :D

[Karbuncle]

Is it sad i still hold some shrivel of hope the Devs will do something with THF that makes the job better?

Anyway, You only get cookies if you're a WAR, THFs get AIDs.

[Laphine]

The difference between /war and /nin is currently very very very very small. My spreadsheet shows a 1% difference on nins favor against a lv97 mob inside abyssea. But war is no doubt the best thing on super hard stuff (or equally hard outside).

Oh and under 180 delay dw only do decrease tp gain if you just lost a decimal, right at that point of change. And from then on it increases tp gain until you lose another decimal. It's like a saw graph. Before the tp floor removal it behaved like haste under 180 delay.

[Insaniac]

TP gain feels painfully slow /war. The only time I would ever consider using it is when I'm dumping TP but in most cases if you're dumping TP /sam will help your over-all damage more. Also, when I say "kills /war" I don't mean in only damage where it is still outperformed by /nin. Consider that /war you have no native subtle blow and no shadows. The increase in WS damage vs the loss of subtle blow, shadows, and DPS damage means /war is just not really viable in my opinion.

[Karbuncle]

Its viable if you have a good support team.

But not viable if you're low man with bad players or just plain low-man and you're the only tank. Even then though, some mobs its better.

Eh, Hopefully we get Dual Wield 3, then it wont matter either way, /nin will just become a "Survivability" support job.

[DebbieGibson]

Someone summarize for me the problem with thf this thread is too long to read all the way through.

[Karbuncle]

Someone summarize for me the problem with thf this thread is too long to read all the way through.

1) THF has no real use. TH2 is the best form of TH in terms of noticeable boosts, anything past that is all pretty much unnoticeable/unseeable boosts. So we're not even good for that beyond placebo effects.

2) We have no real DD capabilities, similar to a lot of lesser DD jobs, Except THF falls further behind than others in this Gap. Since 75 the gap between THFs power and the next best DD has widened much further. In this field, we don't ask to be top tier DD, simply to have the gap lessened.

3) Devs want us to be support class and "Control enmity" and as it stands THF has no real methods to "Control" enmity. 2 Abilities on a shared timer and no way to disperse extra Enmity does not a master make. So as far as the Devs "vision" of the job goes we even lack capabilities there

4) Over-all Lack of Uniqueness of the job, usefulness of the job. Right now the only thing keeping THF relevant is ignorance of Treasure Hunter, But once that becomes common knowledge I doubt THF will keep its head above water.

5) We're all disappointed by the BS Responses we got earlier, which basically to summarize tell us things like "Aura Steal is too powerful to separate from Steal, or Reduce timer", and "You can't have Subtle Blow because You melee for TH upgrades, and we feel that balances it", etc.


Sorry i can't go into more detail as i know its a bit hard to discern from these 5 points, but a lot has been discussed.

[Insaniac]

Gonna add:

5) Practically 0 job growth since the level cap increases. THF is more or less the same exact job it was at level 75 where most other jobs have grown either slightly or exponentially. TH3 and the proc system seems to have been just a placebo put in place to keep THFs from being completely forgotten when TH2 became sub-able.

[Karbuncle]

Gonna add:

5) Practically 0 job growth since the level cap increases. THF is more or less the same exact job it was at level 75 where most other jobs have grown either slightly or exponentially. TH3 and the proc system seems to have been just a placebo put in place to keep THFs from being completely forgotten when TH2 became sub-able.

And this yes.

[DebbieGibson]

Those are pretty compelling points, I am skeptical of the TH thing though.

Even with reric, mithic, enpy, thf damage is still weak?

[Karbuncle]

Those are pretty compelling points, I am skeptical of the TH thing though.

Even with reric, mithic, enpy, thf damage is still weak?

Well, In comparison to all over true "Melee DD", I would rank THF as the lowest on the pole. Like, literally bottom of the bottom, We have no real Damage capabilities.

With Relic/Empyrean, the gap is closed slightly, but so is it for a lot of other jobs. I.E: PUP would be slightly better than us without Empryean, However if both had empyrean, PUP just jumped up big time (Victory smite is boss), so THF falls behind.

Further more, in terms of Rudra's, its a limited WS, and is more or less gimp unless you stack it with SA/TA, so its use is tied to JA Timers, making Aftermath difficult to sustain unless you sacrifice WS damage to use Rudra's unstacked.

Basically, the job is heavily flawed, Its not super terrible in DD, but I'd rank it last. Maybe ahead of RNG by a small margin, actually.

Edit: This is all Non-Abyssea related. Inside Abyssea we're a bit more powerful, outside on meaningful content is where the job becomes lacking, and falls behind almost all others.

[Insaniac]

A THF is much better off with any of those weapons. The stacked WS damage from mandau and twashtar is respectable but lower when compared to equally geared 2H DDs but outside of Abyssea our DPS on anything above VT is pretty abysmal. The general consensus as this thread has progress is that we are less concerned with a damage boost and more concerned with the actual usefulness of the job. We would love a few new DD toys and it's not ridiculous to ask for them but most of what we as a whole have come up with are utility JAs and tweaks to existing JAs that are currently useless such as steal mug and despoil.

[Zirael]

Someone summarize for me the problem with thf this thread is too long to read all the way through.

Something like this:



We believe making Aura Steal a separate ability would be over-powered. If we did do this, it’s likely that its use on notorious monsters would be removed and it would have even less of an effect than it does now.

SE: Fish should not dream on flying



Absorb-ATB* (absorb attributes)　DRK Lv91
Absorbs an enemy’s beneficial status effects.

Absorb-ATB* (Absorb attributes)
　→Used in conjunction with Nether Void you are able to absorb two status effects.

SE: there you have it DRKs, your dreams are coming true!



While thieves possess superior stats for all of the above, we do understand your concerns. I apologize that I can’t go into detail about specific abilities, but we are planning to make adjustments so that thieves are really able to shine.

SE: we care about THF, wait and believe, that’s a promise!

[Laphine]

I think the difference between thf and other dds is much smaller outside. SA/TA really is meaningful when everyone has floored crit rate, and those bandwagon weapons completely lose their juice (this is why i fear what that new WAR JA will do). And more, while everyone has floored crit rate, i'm very close to cap against the new VT stuff/NMs on dyna while meleeing. Power being mithra+af3+twash+dex merits for sure, but its there.

We should save that thread summary btw lol. So much went on ever since.

[Insaniac]

That's crazy talk. The gap in abyssea is far smaller. Outside in voidwatch and even old content like einherjar THF gets pretty much smooshed by "pure DD jobs". Even if WS damage is closer it doesn't change the fact that 2-handers WS 3 times as much. I don't see the floored crit rates either.

[Laphine]

idk idk, the spreadsheets kinematics made sure show this as well. My thf build is able to beat a equally geared (or the much i know about )/buffed ukon war/sam there. So after i got to this conclusion i kinda stopped my lust for power.

edit: equally buffed is key tho. More haste (mainly) and war starts going crazy. But anyways, i didn't even set magic haste: outside abyssea we both get tp in ~32 secs (5 hit war btw). And this also is another advantage for me because the WSing syncs with SA/TA.