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Siiri
08-03-2011, 11:30 AM
Uh... this guy, who wants SAM to dual wield GREAT katanas:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11171-New-Job-Trait-for-Samurai.-Bushido-Dual-Wielding-Great-Katanas. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11171-New-Job-Trait-for-Samurai.-Bushido-Dual-Wielding-Great-Katanas.?highlight=great+katana)
While we're at it let's give SAM a job trait that triples their HP, STR, and Attack, gives 100% haste effect, gives them 100% TP all the time, and gives them the ability to fly making them unable to be hit by mobs but they can still hit mobs at the same time by throwing their dual great katanas like boomerangs. Also, make them glow and make their great katanas on fire.

Be careful there Puck, knowing SE's love for SAM they probably will take that serious.

Nightstrike
08-03-2011, 11:48 AM
Uh... this guy, who wants SAM to dual wield GREAT katanas:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11171-New-Job-Trait-for-Samurai.-Bushido-Dual-Wielding-Great-Katanas. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11171-New-Job-Trait-for-Samurai.-Bushido-Dual-Wielding-Great-Katanas.?highlight=great+katana)
While we're at it let's give SAM a job trait that triples their HP, STR, and Attack, gives 100% haste effect, gives them 100% TP all the time, and gives them the ability to fly making them unable to be hit by mobs but they can still hit mobs at the same time by throwing their dual great katanas like boomerangs. Also, make them glow and make their great katanas on fire.

Hay, pay attention now! He said a Great Katana and a Katana. Nothin about it being 2 Great Katanas. lol

Sparthos
08-03-2011, 11:54 AM
Dumb idea is still dumb.

Next we'll have requests for BLU to use Forks because Quina did it in FFIX.

Karbuncle
08-03-2011, 11:56 AM
Hay, pay attention now! He said a Great Katana and a Katana. Nothin about it being 2 Great Katanas. lol

He actually said (I think in the OP) a Great Katana and a Kanesada (which is a light Great Katana). Later on he may have changed it...

Either way when i first read the OP when he created the thread he definitely said 2 Great Katanas, a heavy one, and a Kanesada type (light one)

Tsukino_Kaji
08-03-2011, 12:03 PM
Gravity II and Auspice II? Surely you're not giving those to SCH?I know sch doesn't realy have debuffs, but gravity always seemed like a very sch spell. Auspice seems evern more so a sch spell then whm and I'm a whm.

Korpg
08-03-2011, 12:11 PM
That isn't a valid answer. That isn't an answer at all. If the mob is asleep and you are about to attack it, then you use assault. Or you hit it, it wakes up and tries to attack you, and then your avatar auto attacks the NOT ASLEEP mob.

I refuse to answer any more of your questions because you didn't answer mine.

Again, in what situation do you want your avatar to auto attack a sleeping mob?

And no, auto attack does not mean attacking through the assault command. Auto attacking means attacking the mob without any input from the player.

You never answered my question. So I'll ask it again, for the 50th time.

Why do you feel that you have to get hate, enough hate to have the avatars auto attack sleeping mobs?

Tsukino_Kaji
08-03-2011, 12:16 PM
Think his complaint is more towards that SCH has 3, While there are still a good chunk of jobs that have no general updates.

WAR
MNK
RDM
WHM
BLM
PLD
BST
BRD
NIN
DRG
BLU
COR

Some of those jobs don't really have a lot of complaints (Then again i didnt think SCH was complaining much either :X) The Reps will get to other jobs when they have the info. I think waiting it out is good. This is by and far better than the old days!Updates as follows:
WAR - An abillity that allows you to attack the mob.
MNK - And abillity that allows you to have more HP.
RDM - A spell that allows you to cast more spells.
WHM - Cure VII so they can laugh at schs and rdms.
BLM - Comet and Meteor. ^^
PLD - An abilility that allows cure to deal 99,999 damamge to undead.
BST - More master abillities and no pet boosts... bastards.
BRD - Dose it realy matter to anyone anymore?
NIN - A+ katana. >.<
DRG - 3 new jumps that all share a timer with jump but all do conciderably less damamge.
BLU - WTFBBQPWNHNMSPELLSWHAT?!
COR - See BRD.

Kimble
08-03-2011, 12:39 PM
Kinda funny considering BRD and COR are very useful again outside of abyssea.

Also, it seriously bothers me when people spell does as dose.

Neisan_Quetz
08-03-2011, 12:43 PM
BRD is always useful imo, it's just the 'take as few people as necessary' mentality that causes them to get cut.

Selzak
08-03-2011, 01:01 PM
Dumb idea is still dumb.

Next we'll have requests for BLU to use Forks because Quina did it in FFIX.
I am now formally requesting a low damage sword that's shaped like a fork and increases chance to learn Blue Magic.

Tsukino_Kaji
08-03-2011, 01:06 PM
BRD is always useful imo, it's just the 'take as few people as necessary' mentality that causes them to get cut.My poor neglected brd. ; ;

Dekken
08-03-2011, 04:39 PM
Seems like COR is so unloved anymore, but I still love the job. I really liked the idea of Snake Eye allowing us to have control over the next number rolled, so it would be awesome to see more abilities like this.

How about expanding on the idea of trying to hit an 11 by allowing us to have an ability that will roll the next number in succession. I.E if a COR rolls a 5 then uses an ability called "Strait" (keeping with the COR cards theme) the double-up would be a 6. Another idea: an ability that would copy the number you just rolled. I.E if a COR Rolls a 5 then uses "Deuces Wild" the double-up becomes another 5 followed by snake-eye and boom 11! Just a passing thought for some COR love.

I mean come on SE we're pirates! You know we are loading our dice.

Urteil
08-03-2011, 08:15 PM
Dumb idea is still dumb.

Next we'll have requests for BLU to use Forks because Quina did it in FFIX.


My fork is too big.


+1 to Selzak's idea.

Seha
08-03-2011, 08:34 PM
Whips for beastmasters.

ptsh!

Tarage
08-03-2011, 09:05 PM
You never answered my question. So I'll ask it again, for the 50th time.

Why do you feel that you have to get hate, enough hate to have the avatars auto attack sleeping mobs?

Because sometimes they are very low on health from having sleep resists and might be dealing with other mobs. They might be low on MP. The healers may be busy on something else. It happens in Einherjar all the time.

Answer my question. Your first answer wasn't an answer. You have no valid reason for why an avatar should AUTO ATTACK a SLEEPING MOB. I do not mean Assaulting a sleeping mob. I do not mean auto attacking awake mobs. I do not mean regular attacking. I do not mean regular auto attacking awake mobs. You have no excuse not to understand what I am saying. Focus only on the bolded parts.

In what situation should an avatar auto attack a sleeping mob?

Byrth
08-03-2011, 09:22 PM
Yeah, I was kind of wondering where he was going with that too. It's useful to have your avatar auto-attack slept monsters when . . . you're trying to SMN kite something sleepable with Shiva in too small an area to actually kite so you have to Sleepga -> Release -> Resummon and don't want to spend the extra effort to also hit "Assault"? I don't know, but it doesn't feel like that situation would come up (ever).

Leonlionheart
08-03-2011, 09:29 PM
My poor neglected brd. ; ;

Honestly, I would take a BRD over a BLU to everything.

Same amount of procs, 10x the amount of useful.

Unfortunately, the real problem is the lack of BRDs that play the game. Tons of people have it at 75 for meripos, however no one actually likes playing it (obviously there are the few chosen ones who I dearly, dearly love).

Rorrick
08-03-2011, 09:37 PM
Can we get some Paladin information? I think it's a little silly to expound thrice over on three or four jobs while completely ignoring the other sixteen. I only mention Paladin because it's currently the most useless job in the game, but anything other than "job already covered Part X" would be welcome.

Horadrim
08-03-2011, 09:59 PM
Can we get some Paladin information? I think it's a little silly to expound thrice over on three or four jobs while completely ignoring the other sixteen. I only mention Paladin because it's currently the most useless job in the game, but anything other than "job already covered Part X" would be welcome.

PLD does need some love.

Fabitron
08-03-2011, 11:18 PM
Can BST get the ability to Charm back please. Jugs are good but it takes away from the thrill

Taint2
08-03-2011, 11:51 PM
Can we get some Paladin information? I think it's a little silly to expound thrice over on three or four jobs while completely ignoring the other sixteen. I only mention Paladin because it's currently the most useless job in the game, but anything other than "job already covered Part X" would be welcome.

PLD is making a solid comeback in VW.

Selzak
08-04-2011, 12:33 AM
If SAM gets Amnesia and/or Terror and DRK doesn't then I'm calling SE racist, or whatever I want to feel better about how ridiculous that is.

Horadrim
08-04-2011, 12:42 AM
If SAM gets Amnesia and/or Terror and DRK doesn't then I'm calling SE racist, or whatever I want to feel better about how ridiculous that is.

I have to admit, Terror effects should belong exclusively to Dark Knight and Beastmaster.

Korpg
08-04-2011, 01:03 AM
Because sometimes they are very low on health from having sleep resists and might be dealing with other mobs. They might be low on MP. The healers may be busy on something else. It happens in Einherjar all the time.

Don't have sucky BLMs? Have more than 1 BLM sleep stuff? Know that you can't sleep undead or Rocs. Use Convert, they should heal themselves. Even in your example you should have a BLM dedicated in Sleep only. If they are low on MP, then it is their fault that they have the avatars wake the mobs.


Answer my question. Your first answer wasn't an answer. You have no valid reason for why an avatar should AUTO ATTACK a SLEEPING MOB. I do not mean Assaulting a sleeping mob. I do not mean auto attacking awake mobs. I do not mean regular attacking. I do not mean regular auto attacking awake mobs. You have no excuse not to understand what I am saying. Focus only on the bolded parts.

I don't answer your question because I know you will twist my words to make it so I have to agree with you. You still haven't answered my question in full. Why do you feel like you have to be a WHM when you are a SMN?

Also, you do realize that Cure IV gives out the most enmity when it comes to cure, right?

Sparthos
08-04-2011, 02:17 AM
I have to admit, Terror effects should belong exclusively to Dark Knight and Beastmaster.

Sadly Feral Howl is garbage. There is no reason that Howl shouldn't be a one minute recast given all it does is stun an enemy.

Blue Mage has terrorize already and ask any BLU, it sucks.

Karbuncle
08-04-2011, 02:29 AM
If they did Terror Right it could be useful, But i agree i think they underpower it far to much when its basically a glorified Stun.

Feral Howl Should have been 1minute Timer, with Additional Mertis Effecting Accuracy.

Horadrim
08-04-2011, 02:48 AM
If they did Terror Right it could be useful, But i agree i think they underpower it far to much when its basically a glorified Stun.

Feral Howl Should have been 1minute Timer, with Additional Mertis Effecting Accuracy.

All the more reason for it to be beefed and accessible primarily by Dark Knight, a job that basically banks off of being terrifying, and Beastmaster, a job designed to represent wild ferocity.

Urteil
08-04-2011, 05:44 AM
If SAM gets Amnesia and/or Terror and DRK doesn't then I'm calling SE racist, or whatever I want to feel better about how ridiculous that is.

Samurai getting Amnesia and or Terror, especially Terror is the stupidest thing I have heard in a long time.


It ranks up there with the Samurai dual wielding two Great Katanas.




Uh can DRK have meditate and Store TP please? Also in a future update I request that we get Seigan/Hasso/Third Eye.

Tarage
08-04-2011, 06:34 AM
Don't have sucky BLMs? Have more than 1 BLM sleep stuff? Know that you can't sleep undead or Rocs. Use Convert, they should heal themselves. Even in your example you should have a BLM dedicated in Sleep only. If they are low on MP, then it is their fault that they have the avatars wake the mobs.

I don't answer your question because I know you will twist my words to make it so I have to agree with you. You still haven't answered my question in full. Why do you feel like you have to be a WHM when you are a SMN?

Also, you do realize that Cure IV gives out the most enmity when it comes to cure, right?

Twist nothing. You are admitting you can't answer my question. I already told you that SMN has a vast amount of MP and when not BPing they can easily help cure people. It's how SMN was played since day one and there is no excuse to change it.

I'm done with you. Someone else posted explaining how insane it would be to require an avatar to auto attack a sleeping mob. Since you refuse to ever answer my question, I'm considering you a troll who has nothing better to do than argue. You've had BLMs tell you that you are wrong, you've had SMN tell you that you are wrong, and still you don't listen. Until you answer my question, this argument is over.

SE, please fix it so that Avatars do not auto-attack slept mobs. There is no situation where this is helpful and it only hinders SMN.

Elexia
08-04-2011, 06:36 AM
Dumb idea is still dumb.

Next we'll have requests for BLU to use Forks because Quina did it in FFIX.

Why not? I'd take a Spork I could nearly solo Ozma with over crappy swords any day >.>

Habiki
08-04-2011, 06:42 AM
Dumb idea is still dumb.

Next we'll have requests for BLU to use Forks because Quina did it in FFIX.

I want polearm skill for my blue mage, Kimahri Rosno from FFX got it and he was a blue mage.

Sparthos
08-04-2011, 07:24 AM
I want polearm skill for my blue mage, Kimahri Rosno from FFX got it and he was a blue mage.

Right after I get my JA to turn Soulflayer at will.

Leonlionheart
08-04-2011, 07:52 AM
all i want for blu is phalanx and MABII so i can stop this silly /rdm thing and go back to /sch :<

Sparthos
08-04-2011, 07:53 AM
all i want for blu is phalanx and MABII so i can stop this silly /rdm thing and go back to /sch :<

That sounds reasonable enough to actually be implemented.

I still want my Soulflayer though!

Korpg
08-04-2011, 09:43 AM
Twist nothing. You are admitting you can't answer my question. I already told you that SMN has a vast amount of MP and when not BPing they can easily help cure people. It's how SMN was played since day one and there is no excuse to change it.

But wait, didn't you say that you are Diabolos Refresh only? Wouldn't more than 1 BP a minute be too much for you, since all you care about is standing around looking pretty?


I'm done with you. Someone else posted explaining how insane it would be to require an avatar to auto attack a sleeping mob. Since you refuse to ever answer my question, I'm considering you a troll who has nothing better to do than argue. You've had BLMs tell you that you are wrong, you've had SMN tell you that you are wrong, and still you don't listen. Until you answer my question, this argument is over.

You want to know the answer? There is no situation would you want anyone to hit sleeping mobs that the party/alliance isn't killing, avatar or not. That is the most obvious answer and I expected you to know that answer. But you have to make it so in order for you to do anything, you have to have both an avatar out and curebomb the BLMs, which leads to your avatar waking the mobs because you feel that you need to be on top of the hatelist and have to have everything come kill you when they wake up. It is not my fault, nor SE, that you can't learn a simple concept of "don't get on top of the hatelist when you are in a party that the BLM has to sleep the mobs."


SE, please fix it so that Avatars do not auto-attack slept mobs. There is no situation where this is helpful and it only hinders SMN.

You know, you still don't get it. What does an avatar do when the SMN is on top of the hate list? They auto-attack. When do the avatars generally get on top of the hate list a lot? When they are soloing. You want to take away the best thing a soloist SMN has because you cannot learn a simple concept of not getting on the top of the mob hatelist in a party setup. Trust me, it is that simple.

Byrth
08-04-2011, 10:26 AM
Actually Korpg, it's a stupid design flaw that shouldn't have made it past RotZ beta almost a decade ago.

Dallas
08-04-2011, 01:52 PM
But wait, didn't you say that you are Diabolos Refresh only? Wouldn't more than 1 BP a minute be too much for you, since all you care about is standing around looking pretty?

Korpg, I forget... weren't you one of the guys that didn't believe there were SMN out there who did absolutely nothing (and were proud of it)?

Korpg
08-04-2011, 03:28 PM
Korpg, I forget... weren't you one of the guys that didn't believe there were SMN out there who did absolutely nothing (and were proud of it)?

You mean like you do when you are weakened? Since you are like that 75% of the time from AoE TP/spells?

Tarage
08-04-2011, 05:36 PM
I'm not going to take you seriously any more Korpg. You have proven to me that you refuse to admit you are wrong. If an avatar auto-attacks a sleeping mob, it is a bad thing. You have not provided one instance ever in which you would want that behavior. Therefor you have no reason to be against a fix that would fix that behavior, and leave everything else the way it has always been. You are arguing to argue, so you are a troll.

Go away troll.

Korpg
08-05-2011, 12:51 AM
I'm not going to take you seriously any more Korpg. You have proven to me that you refuse to admit you are wrong. If an avatar auto-attacks a sleeping mob, it is a bad thing. You have not provided one instance ever in which you would want that behavior. Therefor you have no reason to be against a fix that would fix that behavior, and leave everything else the way it has always been. You are arguing to argue, so you are a troll.

Go away troll.

Have you asked yourself why an avatar auto-attacks a sleeping mob? Or any mob period? Avatars don't just go up and say "hey, there is a mob sleeping, let me hit it so I can possibly wipe the party." Just because you have a viewpoint of SMN being a support job only, does not mean that everyone shares the same idea as you. You play SMN as a gimp WHM and RDM, while others play it as a DD job, a melee mage, a solo job, and as a TP free damage job. Are they all wrong in playing SMN as you don't do?

But the main problem is, the only way to keep avatars from sleeping mobs, except not being on top of the mob's hate list, would be to take away the aggression of avatars on monsters who have the SMN as on top of the hate list. Do you know what that would do to the soloist who play this job to kite/kill NMs? Just because you don't play SMN as a soloist job doesn't mean you have to take it away from those who do.

SE knows that most of us understand SMN enough to not be on top of the hate list when in a party situation. Why are you suggesting that you take away a key aspect of the job because you cannot learn from your mistakes.

Karbuncle
08-05-2011, 12:56 AM
I have to say i agree with what Korpg is generally saying.

I like it when I'm soloing that my Avatar goes straight for the mob Im fighting. Without this Bomb-Soloing back in the day would have been impossible. Do not take this away, It is a benefit to the job in a lot of situations, just as much as it can be detrimental. However I will take the detriments if it means keeping the positives.

There is a simple solution for it, not being at the top of the hate list with a pet out. I admit its a problem for some people but removing it would be far worse in my eyes and in a lot of SMNs who use the job for more than being a bad healer.

Byrth
08-05-2011, 01:03 AM
I'm pretty sure no one is asking for Avatars to stop auto-agroing monsters that are after the Summoner. They just don't want it to happen to slept monsters.

Korpg
08-05-2011, 01:03 AM
Watch out Karby, he is going to start calling you a troll because you don't agree with him now.

Korpg
08-05-2011, 01:08 AM
I'm pretty sure no one is asking for Avatars to stop auto-agroing monsters that are after the Summoner. They just don't want it to happen to slept monsters.

The avatars don't attack slept mobs because they are asleep though. That would be a problem if that is the case, and I fully agree with Tarage with that if that is the case. But it is not the case. He doesn't understand that there is a list of people on each mob's "list" in order of who has the most hate or not. He also doesn't understand that the avatar attacks any mob that the SMN is on top of that "list." Most everyone has known about this list for years, and SE even gave us the ability to look at that list (see: Libra).

He has not learned, and by the attitude he has been displaying on these forums, refuses to learn simple hate control aspects of this game. He is, by definition, a noob because of his lack of insight and refusal to adapt to situations.

Karbuncle
08-05-2011, 01:12 AM
I'm pretty sure no one is asking for Avatars to stop auto-agroing monsters that are after the Summoner. They just don't want it to happen to slept monsters.

oh? I could have sworn that's exactly what he was asking for.

I'll have to reread, Regardless if all he's asking for is for Avatars to somehow detect/know if a mob is slept and to not attack it, I can't see that being a negative. If he's asking for the Auto-attack System as a whole to be removed I'm not on board.

Edit

1. Avatars should not auto-attack sleeping mobs.
2. Avatars should be able to be told what to attack from a further distance.
3. When an Avatar uses a BP on a mob and it does before the BP can go off, reset the BP timer.


Looks like he's only asking for pets not to attack sleeping mobs. Which i am on board with. Truthfully there is an easy solution (Not being on top of the hate list), but i agree it would be nice.

Korpg
08-05-2011, 01:14 AM
oh? I could have sworn that's exactly what he was asking for.

I'll have to reread, Regardless if all he's asking for is for Avatars to somehow detect/know if a mob is slept and to not attack it, I can't see that being a negative. If he's asking for the Auto-attack System as a whole to be removed I'm not on board.

He is basically asking that anyway, for the auto-attack system to be removed. If the avatars refuse to attack a sleeping mob, that means that you can't hit assault or use Night Terror on sleeping mobs anymore. Which kills the whole idea of Night Terror anyway.

Moink
08-05-2011, 01:21 AM
The only instance I see an avatar atatacking a slept mob is s/he tossed a cure on the person who slept those mobs and the avatar was standing idle. If the mobs are slept, then how did that person take enough damage to require a cure? If its a Nm I can understand an AoE attack hitting a mage but anything else... A SMN shouldnt need to cast a cure on the person casting sleep.

If the mobs awake and hit the mage and still take a decent amount of damage, it should still be the person casting sleep to toss a cure on his or herself.

Tarage
08-05-2011, 07:17 AM
Keep lying and trolling Korpg. Never once did I say I wanted all of auto-attack to be taken away. That was an invention of your troll logic to keep this argument going.

Also I like how you don't read anything I say. Let me say it again, for the sake of everyone else trying to pay attention and getting caught up in your lies.

1. I only want avatars not to auto-attack sleeping mobs.
2. I do not want the removal of auto-attack on awake mobs.
3. I do not want to remove the ability to use the assault command on sleeping mobs.
4. If told by an avatar to attack a sleeping mob with the Assault command, or if slept is cast on a mob while the avatar is attacking it, the avatar should continue to attack it.

That's right folks. For anyone paying attention, they would realize the only part I want changed is for an avatar who has not been told by the SMN to attack a slept mob to not attack a slept mob. EVERYTHING ELSE STAYS THE SAME AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN.

He has no legs to stand on. He wants to argue to argue and will lie to accomplish this. Please join me in saying: Go away troll.

Seha
08-05-2011, 08:32 AM
Trolltrolltrolltrolltrolltroll.
Whenever I read a post here there's someone calling someone else a troll. 98% of the time with no basis.

You know who's a real troll? This guy is a real troll! http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Gurfurlur_the_Menacing

Supersun
08-05-2011, 08:39 AM
Yeah, but that troll sucks at trolling.

This guy (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Gi%27Ghi_Rockchopper) is the king of trolls

Korpg
08-05-2011, 09:15 AM
Keep lying and trolling Korpg. Never once did I say I wanted all of auto-attack to be taken away. That was an invention of your troll logic to keep this argument going.

Also I like how you don't read anything I say. Let me say it again, for the sake of everyone else trying to pay attention and getting caught up in your lies.

1. I only want avatars not to auto-attack sleeping mobs.
2. I do not want the removal of auto-attack on awake mobs.
3. I do not want to remove the ability to use the assault command on sleeping mobs.
4. If told by an avatar to attack a sleeping mob with the Assault command, or if slept is cast on a mob while the avatar is attacking it, the avatar should continue to attack it.

That's right folks. For anyone paying attention, they would realize the only part I want changed is for an avatar who has not been told by the SMN to attack a slept mob to not attack a slept mob. EVERYTHING ELSE STAYS THE SAME AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN.

He has no legs to stand on. He wants to argue to argue and will lie to accomplish this. Please join me in saying: Go away troll.

You take away one, you take away all, that is how SE works, you know that, right?

Also, we have the ability to not have the avatars auto-attack the mobs. I'll spell it out for you:

Don't
Be
On
The
Top
Of
The
Hate
List

It is as simple as that.

Tarage
08-05-2011, 09:46 AM
You no longer have an argument, yet you continue to argue. You have no more point, yet you continue to push it. No one likes you. Go away troll.

Byrth
08-05-2011, 11:10 AM
Okay, so Korpg misunderstood what Tarage is asking for and is stubborn enough to continue insisting that the thing he didn't ask for is a bad idea. Tarage calls him a troll, when really he's just incredibly stubborn and skims before writing posts.

Overall, the nonversation adds nothing to the thread.

Korpg
08-05-2011, 11:23 AM
Okay, so Korpg misunderstood what Tarage is asking for and is stubborn enough to continue insisting that the thing he didn't ask for is a bad idea. Tarage calls him a troll, when really he's just incredibly stubborn and skims before writing posts.

Overall, the nonversation adds nothing to the thread.

You are right, I am stubborn. But you have to admit, SE is not going to make it so the avatars won't attack mobs that are slept, because that is not how they roll. Most people know how to get by that, and the main problem isn't avatars attacking slept mobs in the first place. It is the SMN who feels like they have to curebomb to get on top of the hate list.

Kimble
08-05-2011, 11:40 AM
Honestly dude, just agree to disagree. Maybe you dont feel you need it but if they were able to make it so your avatar didnt attack a sleeping pet, would that really hurt anymore?

Byrth
08-05-2011, 01:28 PM
You are right, I am stubborn. But you have to admit, SE is not going to make it so the avatars won't attack mobs that are slept, because that is not how they roll. Most people know how to get by that, and the main problem isn't avatars attacking slept mobs in the first place. It is the SMN who feels like they have to curebomb to get on top of the hate list.

Eh! If I'm BLM/RDM or BLM/SCH in Einherjar, SMN/WHM has a tier of Cure over me. I'd rather have them heal me after I get beaten on/sleepga than have to Cure 3 myself twice as many times, and it's not hard to argue that casting Cure on me is likely the most useful thing they could be doing at that moment. There are situations where it would be nice for SMN to not have to choose between keeping a pet out (like giving Diabolos's Favor to Black Mages) and being able to heal whoever (like healing Black Mages).

But yeah, I agree that SE is unlikely to ever improve any form of NPC AI.

hiko
08-05-2011, 02:46 PM
for avatar auto attack: just add a new command like /autotarget but pet oriented you can turn on-off

Tarage
08-05-2011, 06:35 PM
Wonderful ideas. Sadly, people like Korpg will never try to understand anyone else's point of view. Clearly, the people who play differently from him are wrong.

And curebombing isn't required when the only other member on a mob's hate list is a BLM who cast sleepga. It isn't THAT hard to get more hate than them. Two cures?

Three people IN A ROW just told you that they don't agree with you, not including myself. I eagerly await you explaining how they are obviously wrong as well. Your ego is enormous.

I call you a troll because that is what you are doing. You have lost the argument, yet you continue to argue. People have pointed out that you didn't understand what I was asking for, yet you still try to say I'm asking for something I'm not. People play differently than you, yet you go out of your way to say they are playing wrong and your way to play is the one correct way.

Wikipedia has the following definition for troll: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Inflammatory? No. Extraneous? Yes. Off-Topic? Somewhat. The key part is with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. Your constant misrepresenting of my points, refusal to admit when you were mistaken, and general egotistical garbage has pulled more than one thread off topic.

I'll say it again. Go away troll.

Urteil
08-05-2011, 06:58 PM
Admittedly I haven't read about the past three pages of the thread, and I know for certain that a developer will never post in this thread again especially after that derail.

But are we seriously talking about attacking slept mobs?

This seems like the kind of shit that shouldn't even need to be discussed or for there to be a mechanic for:

1: Don't do it.
2: Don't do it.
3: Unless its the next target to be killed.

4: Tell your pet to stop. . .?

Urteil
08-05-2011, 06:59 PM
Wonderful ideas. Sadly, people like Korpg will never try to understand anyone else's point of view. Clearly, the people who play differently from him are wrong.

And curebombing isn't required when the only other member on a mob's hate list is a BLM who cast sleepga. It isn't THAT hard to get more hate than them. Two cures?

Three people IN A ROW just told you that they don't agree with you, not including myself. I eagerly await you explaining how they are obviously wrong as well. Your ego is enormous.

I call you a troll because that is what you are doing. You have lost the argument, yet you continue to argue. People have pointed out that you didn't understand what I was asking for, yet you still try to say I'm asking for something I'm not. People play differently than you, yet you go out of your way to say they are playing wrong and your way to play is the one correct way.

Wikipedia has the following definition for troll: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Inflammatory? No. Extraneous? Yes. Off-Topic? Somewhat. The key part is with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. Your constant misrepresenting of my points, refusal to admit when you were mistaken, and general egotistical garbage has pulled more than one thread off topic.

I'll say it again. Go away troll.


Troll by far has to be the stupidest internet meme/term/slang/creation, since its conception in Da Vinci's brain while he sailed over the poppy fields in a flying machine.

Korpg
08-05-2011, 09:35 PM
And curebombing isn't required when the only other member on a mob's hate list is a BLM who cast sleepga. It isn't THAT hard to get more hate than them. Two cures?

Why do you have to cure the BLMs in the first place? Can't they cure themselves? Or better yet, can't the WHM not cure them? If you are in a party/alliance where there is only 1 WHM, and you, then your party is doomed to fail because of poor planning, especially outside of abyssea where MP is more of an issue.

Your idea sucks because there is a simple way to not have your avatars attack the slept mobs.

I'll say it again though:

Don't
Be
On
The
Top
Of
The
Hate
List

It is as simple as that.

Frost
08-06-2011, 01:29 AM
So wait... Your solution is to just stand there with your pet out and not cure anyone?

Unfortunately this is the mentality of the majority of Summoners...
While I am not saying all Summoners are idiots, I will say that there's a disproportionate amount of idiots that leveled Summoner...

Karbuncle
08-06-2011, 02:55 AM
But are we seriously talking about attacking slept mobs?

This seems like the kind of shit that shouldn't even need to be discussed or for there to be a mechanic for:

1: Don't do it.
2: Don't do it.
3: Unless its the next target to be killed.

4: Tell your pet to stop. . .?


Avatars Auto-attack an Enemy that is aggressive to the SMN, Meaning if you're on top of the hate list the Avatar will go after said mob. Its not as simple as "Dont do it". The solution is not to be on top of the hate list.

The problem arises in situations where Sleepga is involved, and if the BLM is in low HP you could cure and help, but you'd be on top of the hate list. Or you could stand there and do nothing. The problem is we have to make a choice to help, or to stand there, simply so we dont risk our pet waking up a slept mob.

These days our pets can take most mobs, problem is AoE WS or Magic from certain mobs could cause problems. So i see where Tarage is coming from.

So options 1-3 Aren't in the summoners control.

Option 4, That being said, we can't just "Tell our pets to stop", that is the problem being discussed, The only way to "Tell our pets to stop" is to release them, meaning Desummon them. Which for some SMNs is a problem, especially if they're using Avatar's Favor.

So option 4 is out as well.

Its not a giant problem but it is noticeable in group scenarios, especially in places like New Dynamis, or the like.

Symulence
08-06-2011, 03:57 AM
Would it be at all possible to give SAM/NIN a Great Katana weapon skill similar to Sanguine Blade? Tachi: Ketsu for example. (Ketsueki translates to "blood" in english if you were curious about the suggested name). This would be a good addition to the overall survivability of a samurai, because Third Eye is not the most reliable Job Ability out there to say the least. Samurai if one of the few jobs that cannot heal themselves without using a mage or dancer sub job.

Korpg
08-06-2011, 05:11 AM
So wait... Your solution is to just stand there with your pet out and not cure anyone?

Unfortunately this is the mentality of the majority of Summoners...
While I am not saying all Summoners are idiots, I will say that there's a disproportionate amount of idiots that leveled Summoner...

No, I'm saying that you can cure people if needed, but be smart about it.

Curing the tank or some DDs to help out the healer is one thing. Curing the BLMs to top off their HP after they sleep a bunch of mobs is another.

Besides, who would have their avatar out doing nothing anyway, unless to spam merited BPs without feeding TP? The example Tarage gave is to have Diabolos out JUST for favor. If you are going to help out a party, have Shiva out and use Heavenly Strike if the only way to keep an avatar out is by favor. If you can't keep an avatar out with favor's help, don't bring the SMN period, come as something that isn't a detriment to the party/alliance.

Tarage
08-06-2011, 05:15 AM
Korpg won't listen, he never has and never will. Even if everyone on the forum told him they didn't agree, he would say they were all wrong.

He is a troll, nothing more.

Korpg
08-06-2011, 05:39 AM
I'll just bring my post from the SMN forum over here, because you obviously don't listen anyway:



"My way of playing SMN is the only way. If you don't play it my way, you are wrong. Everyone agrees with me."

Let's quote some people then, who 'agree with you'.

Obviously reading is not your strong suit. Not once did I say that my way or the highway. That was Dallas. What I am saying is that you are asking for "solution" to a problem that A) isn't a problem for most because most SMNs are actually smarter than you and don't curebomb the BLMs so they can be on top of the hate list and B) will create a bigger problem because it takes away the best thing about a SMN, especially when it comes to soloing NMs.

I bolded the main points of my argument for when you tl:dr. Like you have been doing.



That's from just two threads. I could go dredge up more, but my point is made. I am NOT alone in this. I am NOT the only one who thinks this is a problem.

Karbuncle and Byrth also stated that the problem lies with the SMN being on top of the hate list. You had to cut those out of the quotes because they would hurt your argument in the first place. hiko was making a suggestion, not agreeing with you. Mala thinks that spirits should be updated to be better pets than avatars, so any of his arguments are flawed anyway. Sasaraixx wants a Stay command, which SE specifically said that they won't do for SMN, and that Stay will be a BST only trait. Tannlore has no idea, like you, about enmity control or hate issues, and it shows from that quote you made. He, as do you, think that avatars just suddenly start attacking slept mobs, which most people, not just SMNs alone, know that is not the case.


But this has never been about that has it? Even with so many people telling you they don't like it, you don't care. Even if it is a legitimate suggestion, you don't care. You just want to argue, and increase your post count, and fluff your ego.

That is why you are a troll. Go away.

If anything, the only one who is a troll, even by your definitions, is you. But you are also a noob, which by definition is: somebody who refuses to learn and blindly accepts the first thing he sees as truth.

You are the one who can't learn anything about hate control. You are the one who can't understand your own definitions, you are the one who can't even read without somebody having to bold the main points for you. You are also the one who take people's words and try to twist it for your own cause.

Also, saying that everyone agrees with you while nobody agrees with me is false also. Not only have I talked with people on this forum, I have talked to actual SMNs in this game, ones who know what they are doing, ones who have their own playstyle, and ones who's playstyle are very similar to yours. I told them your side of the argument, including just making it so avatars won't auto-attack sleeping mobs, but still attack everything else, and they all agreed with me.

Your suggestion is a lazy-man's suggestion because since you can't figure out hate controls, you want to bend around your problem so you don't have to learn. That is your main problem: instead of fixing it, you make it so people has to work around your problem for you.

But that is not how SE works. They are not going to make it so avatars are going to not attack sleeping mobs. They are either going to do nothing or take away the whole auto-aggression aspect of avatars. If they listen to you, you are going to make 75% of the SMN population (not those who burned, those who actually leveled the job from scratch) angry because you took away the only aspect of being able to solo harder NMs away from them, all because you are too lazy to figure out a simple puzzle.

Sorry about the tl:dr.

Xellith
08-06-2011, 05:41 AM
No, I'm saying that you can cure people if needed, but be smart about it.

Curing the tank or some DDs to help out the healer is one thing. Curing the BLMs to top off their HP after they sleep a bunch of mobs is another.

Besides, who would have their avatar out doing nothing anyway, unless to spam merited BPs without feeding TP? The example Tarage gave is to have Diabolos out JUST for favor. If you are going to help out a party, have Shiva out and use Heavenly Strike if the only way to keep an avatar out is by favor. If you can't keep an avatar out with favor's help, don't bring the SMN period, come as something that isn't a detriment to the party/alliance.


MNK MNK MNK MNK WHM WHM
MNK MNK MNK MNK WHM WHM
THF BRD WAR BLU WHM BLM

?

Korpg
08-06-2011, 05:45 AM
MNK MNK MNK MNK WHM WHM
MNK MNK MNK MNK WHM WHM
THF BRD WAR BLU WHM BLM

?

Too many WHMs in my opinion. Also, what, besides Voidwatch for procs, need an alliance to kill anyway? Voidwatch wouldn't have things to be slept, so that is out of the whole "avatars are waking mobs" argument of Tarage's.

But I don't know what the point of your post is. Should take out a WHM in 2 of those parties and put a RDM or COR (or one of each) in them.

Leonlionheart
08-06-2011, 07:02 AM
MNK MNK MNK MNK WHM WHM
MNK MNK MNK MNK WHM WHM
THF BRD WAR BLU WHM BLM

?

More like...

WAR WAR WAR WAR SMN BRD > party cycles
WAR WAR WAR WAR SMN BRD > party cycles
THF BLM BLU WHM NIN WAR > pick your worst WAR.

If you have that, and 2hours ready, nothing will last longer than perfect defense.

Ravenmore
08-06-2011, 08:51 AM
Saying anyone that disagrees with you is a troll is as bad as some one who is trolling. He feels srtongly for smn as well. I don't give two craps about smn but pulling the troll card is not making you look any better. If everyone agrees with you its not a debate.

Tarage
08-06-2011, 09:07 AM
I'm not here to debate. I never was. I was here to ask for a fix. He followed me to every thread I posted in and demanded that my suggestion not be heard. At any point in time he can walk away. He's already said that he doesn't think SE will listen to me, so why keep at it?

Because he wants to fluff his ego and his post count. He is a text book definition of a troll.

I just want my suggestion to be heard.

Ravenmore
08-06-2011, 11:23 AM
Thing is this is a discussion forum. Like it or not. Its not just a suggestion box. With the wieght this forum carries and what you ask for and what he is defending is the same mechanic that allows smn to solo. So what your asking for could be seen as a nerf to smn soloers.

Though what your doing and saying how you don't care about debate is the same so your no better then what your trying to put down as trolling. Your suggestion was heard and and counter arguement was made. Theres more to balance then damage. Having to stay off the hate list to give refresh to the whole party with out repeated casting is the balance.

Karbuncle
08-06-2011, 11:47 AM
what he is defending is the same mechanic that allows smn to solo. So what your asking for could be seen as a nerf to smn soloers.



Actually, Tar is only asking for avatars to not auto-attack slept mobs. Hes not asking to remove auto-attack completely from avatars, just that they have some sort of sub-routine that checks if a mob is slept and won't auto attack.

Ravenmore
08-06-2011, 12:28 PM
I understand that karb but this is SE what seems simple does not mean they will do it that way. A easier way for them to get to the same goal would be remove avatars auto-attack altogether or break it and leave it till the next major update or not fix it. Though I was pointing out more how one side is calling the other a troll when they were doing the same. You disagree with him as well yet your not calling him out as a troll.

Its still not getting at the core problem of smn is they are not being invited for favors but are either brought along for just letting them play the job they want to or thier 2hour. Hate free damage is a way for them to have a use but so is watching hate in the first place. Thiers a bigger flaw in his arguement of topping off the blm they might not even want him to top them off. Since I would have to assume hes talking about outside of abyssea. The tools are there to make this a non-issue. That this is a minor problem in a game that is bleeding off players and thanks to SEs accountants is speeding up.

Pointing back to the last line of that post SE could see the aura buffs that Favors give having to stay off the top of the hate list could be the balance to its basicly free mp along with the reduced avatar attack while it only applies to slepted mobs. Its really one of those little fixs that people bash everytime these come up before major jobs adjustments.

Korpg
08-07-2011, 12:42 PM
Actually, Tar is only asking for avatars to not auto-attack slept mobs. Hes not asking to remove auto-attack completely from avatars, just that they have some sort of sub-routine that checks if a mob is slept and won't auto attack.

We both know that SE won't have a sub-routine added on for this, they will either take away the auto-attack or leave it as is. It really is black/white for them.

Tarage
08-07-2011, 03:51 PM
We both know that SE won't have a sub-routine added on for this, they will either take away the auto-attack or leave it as is. It really is black/white for them.

Really. I thought you were finally going to let it go. But no, you're still arguing with your flawed logic. I bet 3 years ago you would have argued that SE would never fix the out-of-range BP timer reset problem. But they did. And they can fix this too. It's so nice to know you have so little faith in the developers of the game you claim to be so good at.

I'll ask you again, let me have my suggestion and just go away. There is no reason for you to follow me everywhere I go and argue with me. You've said it yourself, and others have said it as well: If SE implements a stopgag that stops avatars from auto-attacking sleeping mobs it would not harm you in the slightest. But I know you better. You're just going to keep arguing because you can't ever let it go. You have to fluff your ego and pad your post count. Keep it up troll.

Korpg
08-07-2011, 10:47 PM
Tarage, I did not respond to you. You accuse me of following you, but you have to respond to me at every turn. Who is following who now?

You think that the developers are going to "fix" this "problem" that only 1 person out of 10,000 has, because the other 9,999 people don't have this "problem" because they know how to not make this a "problem," and you want it fixed because you can't learn to not have this "problem." Even though your "solution" will cause 7,500 people to lose their ability to solo because you can't learn to fix your "problem" yourself.

I'm not going to let you have your suggestion because it is not a problem. The real problem is you. You need to adapt to every situation if you really want to play this game, you can't ask for other people to fix your mistakes for you. Adding this "solution" will hurt us because it creates an idea to everyone that if you can't solve a problem yourself, you can cry about it on the forums until you can get it fixed. That is my problem. Noobs like you need to learn, not still become noobs for the rest of your life.

Also, trolls are generally people who cause problems with hateful words. The last, what, 15 posts or so you have replied to me, specifically, have been hateful posts towards me. Who is trolling who now?

Draylo
08-07-2011, 10:50 PM
Really. I thought you were finally going to let it go. But no, you're still arguing with your flawed logic. I bet 3 years ago you would have argued that SE would never fix the out-of-range BP timer reset problem. But they did. And they can fix this too. It's so nice to know you have so little faith in the developers of the game you claim to be so good at.

I'll ask you again, let me have my suggestion and just go away. There is no reason for you to follow me everywhere I go and argue with me. You've said it yourself, and others have said it as well: If SE implements a stopgag that stops avatars from auto-attacking sleeping mobs it would not harm you in the slightest. But I know you better. You're just going to keep arguing because you can't ever let it go. You have to fluff your ego and pad your post count. Keep it up troll.

Wow, this describes Korpg perfectly.

Korpg
08-07-2011, 10:52 PM
Wow, this describes Korpg perfectly.

Says a hater anyway. You never really cared for me, actually, you expressed hatred towards me pretty much everywhere.

So of course you would agree with him.

Draylo
08-07-2011, 10:55 PM
It's not about hating its just how well he summed it up. You have to come into every thread that people have opinions about and spout off how they are wrong for having them despite a good majority agreeing with them.

Korpg
08-07-2011, 11:01 PM
It's not about hating its just how well he summed it up. You have to come into every thread that people have opinions about and spout off how they are wrong for having them despite a good majority agreeing with them.

No I don't. I see a lot of bad ideas on this forum, but generally the bad ideas don't take away a good thing from a job.

Tarage's idea takes away a basic ability that has helped more SMNs out than harmed them. Even his problem has a very simple solution to keep from being a problem. Why should he be allowed to not be criticized?

Our little discussion has revealed the main problem at hand: him. He is the problem, not his suggestion. Everyone also have agreed that not being on top of the hate list will keep the avatars from attacking the slept mobs, but he still goes on about his little problem because he is still the only one who is having this little problem. If everyone has told you the earth is round and you still state that the earth is flat, who is the one who is having the problem? Do you think that the consensus of many people have just as much weight on an argument as one person's argument?

Byrth
08-07-2011, 11:04 PM
There you go again, assuming that taking away Avatar autoattack against sleeping monsters somehow matters at all for Summoner. It doesn't, so stop strawmanning like he asked SE to take away autoattack all together.

I agree with Draylo, which means this is another example of what he's describing.

Darkwizardzin
08-08-2011, 03:39 AM
......Korpg I understand your fear of SE messing up the game because of game adjustments you don't like... but you need to realize this situation won't improve by following this guy through every thread and making a counter post to every post he does.

SE needs to deside whether this is a worthwhile change or not..... not you. You have made your case and so has he on this matter... so let it go and move on.


My opinion: the change is uneeded and (imo) would be hard for SE to do (also... would this only apply to slept? or would it exstend to bound and petrfiyed monsters?)... but it isn't hurtful at all to the game and im sure many smns would feel nice about not having to worry about there pets waking up slept monsters anymore due to hate changes.

Seha
08-08-2011, 04:46 AM
This thread is still Korpg vs the world? Would you drop it everyone?

Tarage
08-08-2011, 06:48 AM
I asked him to drop it many times. All I wanted was to be able to ask for my fix without him coming in and badmouthing me at every turn.

EDIT: I could start dredging up quotes of people who have said "Yeah, I've had that problem too", but it's not worth the effort anymore. He'll just ignore it for the sake of continuing his losing argument.

Korpg
08-08-2011, 12:21 PM
......Korpg I understand your fear of SE messing up the game because of game adjustments you don't like... but you need to realize this situation won't improve by following this guy through every thread and making a counter post to every post he does.

SE needs to deside whether this is a worthwhile change or not..... not you. You have made your case and so has he on this matter... so let it go and move on.


My opinion: the change is uneeded and (imo) would be hard for SE to do (also... would this only apply to slept? or would it exstend to bound and petrfiyed monsters?)... but it isn't hurtful at all to the game and im sure many smns would feel nice about not having to worry about there pets waking up slept monsters anymore due to hate changes.

I'm not following him at all. I'm just trying to show him what is wrong with his idea and why it was horrible, in hopes of him finding out the real problem. I don't even respond to him directly anymore, but he still thinks I'm following his every post. He even said it himself.

But as long as he continues to say that we "need" this change, I have to respond otherwise, because I know that SE won't look at every post, they will look at the first and last pages to see what people are talking about. That is how things roll. It is hard to go thru 500+ pages a day to find new ideas among the sea of bad ideas.

Tarage
08-08-2011, 12:32 PM
I'm in awe. Even if everyone tells him he is wrong, he won't ever think he is.

This guy is pathetic.

Leonlionheart
08-08-2011, 02:00 PM
Continue arguing about the same thing, though neither party will change it's mind.

Real brilliant on all accounts

Tarage
08-08-2011, 02:41 PM
I said I'd stop. I said I'd be fine to just let it go. All I want is to be able to make my request without him coming everywhere I go and saying how stupid it is.

He's the one who has this obsession.

Korpg
08-08-2011, 02:43 PM
Continue arguing about the same thing, though neither party will change it's mind.

Real brilliant on all accounts

I'm sorry about that.

In case anyone has noticed, I have stopped discussing the problem though.

On a side note, hey Leon, I finally got my Ukon tonight :D

Kimble
08-08-2011, 03:31 PM
Summoner cant wear Ukon. Strange.

Concerned4FFxi
08-08-2011, 05:10 PM
Hey, while your at it fix the AI on my adventuring fellow. The fellow, on soothing healer, prefers to enfeeble mobs before it casts paralyna on me and after i've got 2 enfeebles on me already. Soothing healer my tush, and since everyone gets refresh/regain/triple attack my soothing healer prefers auto-refresh or the spell at 82, thx.

Tarage
08-08-2011, 06:50 PM
Since the objector is done objecting, let me state again the three fixes I would like to see implemented in pet AI and why I feel they are important.

1. Avatars should not auto-attack sleeping, bound, or petrified mobs. Yes, I know this is a modification on what I first said, but it's the same concept. In hectic situations it is very hard to keep off the top of the hate list, and sometimes we need to be able to have our avatars not attack things. Please do not get rid of auto-attack all together, just fix it so that it doesn't happen on sleeping, bound, and petrified mobs.

2. Please extend the radius for being able to use the assault command. No, I do not mean being able to assault from further distances away from mobs, I mean that if my avatar is 30 yalms away from me, and I tell it to attack something, I want it to attack something, not ignore my command and come to me. Having your avatar not attack a mob and at the same time having the cooldown timer not reset is very annoying and can be deadly.

3. We were very grateful when you fixed the issue where if a mob was too far away from a bloodpact, the bloodpact timer was reset. Please apply this same fix to when a mob dies before a bloodpact goes off. It's very annoying to do an attack, or even worse a ward, and have the mob die and the avatar just stand there as if nothing happened, still stuck in the 'preparing' animation. This applies to puppets, wyvern, and beastmaster pets.

I know there has been a lot of confusion surrounding the debate of these three issues, specifically the first, but there is a clear consensus that people would like this fixed. Please look into it.

And my fellow forum posters, if you like these ideas, please show your support for them. Or, if you think they can be improved, please offer improvements. Thank you.

Korpg
08-08-2011, 11:15 PM
I don't see a problem with the current avatar AI when it comes to attacking mobs. I think that having the player fix their own problem by not being on top of the hate list is the main issue at hand, not the avatar attacking slept mobs, because since the person above has also increased his gripes on avatars, next he will ask for avatars to not hit paralyzed, terror, blinded, or any other status effect period.

I know, as many of you forum posters know, that the real problem lies in the summoner's ability to not be on top of the hate list. Why not just make it so anybody who casts sleep has 3x more enmity than anyone who casts cure, so the summoner who feels like curebombing the BLM won't have to worry about waking up the slept mobs, because the summoner who is just curebombing the BLMs thinks that the avatar is only worth having Avatar's Favor up.

I know that, as he continues to increase his gripes about his own inability to learn, SE will just be fed up and, if they take his suggestion to heart, take away the avatars ability to auto-attack mobs. Because what that summoner is asking is to complicate things too much that it would just be easier to either ignore him (most likely to happen) or "fix" his problem by creating a much bigger one (least likely to happen).

What I hope is, that a community rep won't answer this question under update notes like they have been lately, and embarrass every SMN by such a mundane question (for example: See SAM's double katana request).

Byrth
08-09-2011, 12:15 AM
I know, as many of you forum posters know, that the real problem lies in the summoner's ability to not be on top of the hate list. Why not just make it so anybody who casts sleep has 3x more enmity than anyone who casts cure, so the summoner who feels like curebombing the BLM won't have to worry about waking up the slept mobs, because the summoner who is just curebombing the BLMs thinks that the avatar is only worth having Avatar's Favor up.

Well, remember when RDM/NIN was a tank? They specifically nerfed sleep hate a little more than a year ago. Now Sleep 1/2 have 1 CE, which means any kind of Cure that heals for more than 1 HP will have hate over them before Sleep wears off. Sleepga/Sleepga II still have more than 1 CE, so there's that at least.

Korpg
08-09-2011, 02:56 AM
Well, remember when RDM/NIN was a tank? They specifically nerfed sleep hate a little more than a year ago. Now Sleep 1/2 have 1 CE, which means any kind of Cure that heals for more than 1 HP will have hate over them before Sleep wears off. Sleepga/Sleepga II still have more than 1 CE, so there's that at least.

I know that too, that is why I'm suggesting that they put the enmity back in Sleep. We all can cap hate very easy anyway, so what is the point in having Sleep 1/2 at such a low CE anymore? So RDM/NIN can be a tank again? We lost PLD as a tank, might as well make RDM a tank again. They aren't doing much of anything anymore.

Tarage
08-09-2011, 04:41 AM
I love how even after he said he'd stop he hasn't stopped. What a pathetic tool. Why do you tolerate him?

The point is, he's ignoring every SMN who has posted saying they too don't like the current situation. He keeps claiming that a fix isn't needed, but yet so many have called for it. Funny how his ego is the size of Texas.

Also, for the last %&#$ing time, it isn't an 'inability to learn'. I know how to stay off the hate list. There are times where That. Is. Not. Possible. Emergency situations where keeping a BLM alive is far more important that demanding that a SMN not cure anyone. And yes, in those situations, one or two cures can get us on the top of the hate list and can make a situation so much worse by waking mobs.

But please, keep ignoring EVERYONE WHO HAS SAID ANYTHING COUNTER TO YOU.

Kimble
08-09-2011, 04:55 AM
Its pretty sad when someone cant make a simple request (that is no where near as bad as the SAM dual wield great katanas or making throwing better for ninja) without one person going around having to make a comment about it.

Give it time, he'll get banned here just like every other forum.

Korpg
08-09-2011, 05:35 AM
Its pretty sad when someone cant make a simple request (that is no where near as bad as the SAM dual wield great katanas or making throwing better for ninja) without one person going around having to make a comment about it.

Give it time, he'll get banned here just like every other forum.

Dallas is worse than Tarage, and neither have banable ideas yet. Why are you wanting Tarage to be banned?

Kimble
08-09-2011, 09:56 AM
Not talking about Tarage sport, lol

Korpg
08-09-2011, 10:00 AM
sarcasm failed, incoming woosh.

Kimble
08-09-2011, 10:37 AM
Nice saveface there, lol.

ThaiChi
08-10-2011, 07:55 AM
I know it's not exactly a job adjustment, but would there be any chance of seeing NIN added to sobero sukehiro, for obvious weakness staggering reasons? It's rare to even see SAMs using this nowadays unless they are skilling up and it was such an awesome GK back in the day if you wanted to get TP quickly. NIN doesn't get any of the main damage weaponskills so I don't forsee having Soboro available would offset any balance in terms of damage output.

Dallas
08-11-2011, 01:43 AM
Dallas is worse than Tarage, and neither have banable ideas yet. Why are you wanting Tarage to be banned?

The only reason you get free reign in suggestion threads to beg for updates is because I play at a level so much higher than you. Ultimately, SE will consider the impact on the SMN doing the most or I will force a nerf.

All I have ever done is show you what it takes to be the best. I really don't care about underachievers. Your purpose is to convince SE that all SMN need -4 perp body piece. I just use it to completely remove perp staves from my inventory.

Raksha
08-11-2011, 02:06 AM
The only reason you get free reign in suggestion threads to beg for updates is because I play at a level so much higher than you. Ultimately, SE will consider the impact on the SMN doing the most or I will force a nerf.


You gonna walk on water too?

Dallas
08-11-2011, 02:17 AM
Rak, any SMN who doesn't melee has willingly chosen to do half or less of their potential damage. If being the only player who applies the rules of FFXI makes me superhuman, then you know the answer.

Neisan_Quetz
08-11-2011, 02:35 AM
Rak, any SMN who doesn't melee has willingly chosen to do half or less of their potential damage. If being the only player who applies the rules of FFXI makes me superhuman, then you know the answer.

We've had the melee argument in too many threads already now. Seriously shut up because no one cares about your insignificant melee damage on mobs on mobs that matter, and no one cares about your melee damage on mobs that don't matter.

Korpg
08-11-2011, 03:06 AM
Rak, any SMN who doesn't melee has willingly chosen to do half or less of their potential damage. If being the only player who applies the rules of FFXI makes me superhuman, then you know the answer.

How can you do half or less than half of your "potential" damage if you are constantly dead from AoE?

Are you saying that you have enough HP to survive a Gates of Hades from Orthrus? Or any of Pantokrator's -gas or AoE TP moves?

Or any T3 Voidwatch mobs?

Leonlionheart
08-11-2011, 03:17 AM
I think it's safe to say Dallas doesn't play FFXI.

Or at the very least he doesn't play SMN.

Taint2
08-11-2011, 03:20 AM
How can you do half or less than half of your "potential" damage if you are constantly dead from AoE?

Are you saying that you have enough HP to survive a Gates of Hades from Orthrus? Or any of Pantokrator's -gas or AoE TP moves?

Or any T3 Voidwatch mobs?


Pretty much, half the reason to have a SMN in the alliance to limit TP feed and keep the player out of AoE range.

Dallas
08-11-2011, 04:14 AM
Yah Yah... OMG, super deadly AOE ... Wahhhhh. Level WAR ... Boo hoo...

We know the drill. Congratulations for defining your 9 years of FFXI by the very little you can accomplish. How big of a cookie must we give to make you stop trying to sell minimal damage on the other 99% of the game?

Dallas
08-11-2011, 04:20 AM
Seriously, by the WAR's logic, Tom Arnold is a good actor because of True Lies.

Korpg
08-11-2011, 04:39 AM
Yah Yah... OMG, super deadly AOE ... Wahhhhh. Level WAR ... Boo hoo...

I didn't say that everyone should stop leveling SMN to go level WAR. I said that WAR does better damage than SMN, which is pretty obvious to everyone but you. How is your so-called DoT damage doing? Oh wait, you are still asking for a raise...


We know the drill. Congratulations for defining your 9 years of FFXI by the very little you can accomplish. How big of a cookie must we give to make you stop trying to sell minimal damage on the other 99% of the game?

Wait, isn't that what you have been trying to do now? Defining your 9 years (oh, fun fact, I started this game as an XBOX beta tester, so I have only been here for 5~6 years now, and I'm still a better player than you) by stealing other's work and claiming them as your own....yup, that is you.

Climbed Mt. Everest yet? Knowing you, you will say you were the first person to do so naked and blind and had to teach everyone how to do it normally.

Razushu
08-11-2011, 04:40 AM
Seriously, by the WAR's logic, Tom Arnold is a good actor because of True Lies.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Dallas
08-11-2011, 04:57 AM
Look it up Raz. Meanwhile, let's all sit back and let the guy who admittedly only uses SMN to solo in Abyssea tell us how awesome WAR is again.

Matayo
08-11-2011, 05:01 AM
Make the tp bonuse JA give us the full 300% since it's only for the next ws. Also since it's a 1 time deal make sure the recast isn't high. Lol actully just make it a Sam version of sneak atk and put the recast at 2min or somthin that shouldn't seem unfair. Just take it in account plz

Malamasala
08-11-2011, 05:07 AM
How can you do half or less than half of your "potential" damage if you are constantly dead from AoE?

Are you saying that you have enough HP to survive a Gates of Hades from Orthrus? Or any of Pantokrator's -gas or AoE TP moves?

Or any T3 Voidwatch mobs?

Please stop trolling. Nobody meles Pantokrator except your 1-2 WAR/MNK tanks. You could as well sit there and ask if SMNs solo main heal Pantokrator fights, and then claim that because they can't it is useless to sub WHM on SMN.

Your 10% good posts make me depressed to read your 90% junk posts. Just stop posting regarding melee SMN, since you haven't once made a valid post on the subject. It would also remove half the crap on these forums since Dallas usually don't talk with himself.

Kimble
08-11-2011, 05:13 AM
Please stop trolling. Nobody meles Pantokrator except your 1-2 WAR/MNK tanks. You could as well sit there and ask if SMNs solo main heal Pantokrator fights, and then claim that because they can't it is useless to sub WHM on SMN.

Your 10% good posts make me depressed to read your 90% junk posts. Just stop posting regarding melee SMN, since you haven't once made a valid post on the subject. It would also remove half the crap on these forums since Dallas usually don't talk with himself.

Is this a Pot meet Kettle kinda deal?

Korpg
08-11-2011, 05:34 AM
Please stop trolling. Nobody meles Pantokrator except your 1-2 WAR/MNK tanks. You could as well sit there and ask if SMNs solo main heal Pantokrator fights, and then claim that because they can't it is useless to sub WHM on SMN.

Your 10% good posts make me depressed to read your 90% junk posts. Just stop posting regarding melee SMN, since you haven't once made a valid post on the subject. It would also remove half the crap on these forums since Dallas usually don't talk with himself.

But, Dallas just said that a SMN who doesn't melee is losing half or more of their damage. I even quoted that. That post was in response to his idea that SMNs should always melee, which he has stated many times over.

Besides, disagreeing with one another is not the same as trolling. You really need to learn that. Because if you think that I'm trolling, then you have to be trolling also because of the disagreement.

Dallas
08-11-2011, 06:36 AM
It doesn't matter who says otherwise, K will continue to believe that WAR is the only job that can stand and melee the 99% of the game that everyone melees.

Neisan_Quetz
08-11-2011, 06:53 AM
Now I know you don't play the same game as everyone else does. Or only melee in Campaign/on trash mobs during a Full Moon.

Korpg
08-11-2011, 07:05 AM
It doesn't matter who says otherwise, K will continue to believe that WAR is the only job that can stand and melee the 99% of the game that everyone melees.

Go melee on anything, you will still die from AoE from mobs that actually have AoE abilities/spells.

Leonlionheart
08-11-2011, 08:53 AM
Dallas is possibly the best troll ever,

he posts just enough total crap to not be seen by moderators,

and convinces 1-2 idiots that it's not total crap.

That way, these forums will always be plagued because people like Malamasala will occasionally back him up.

This is why we can't get off the topic of LOLMELEE SMN, if you're going to melee go level any of the actual melee jobs, please.

Septimus
08-11-2011, 10:51 AM
This can be fixed by clicking on "Settings" clicking the "Edit Ignore List" link, entering the person's name in it, and clicking "Okay".

If only real life had this option!

Alaik
08-11-2011, 11:42 AM
You haven't learned how to play with your phone properly.

Iphone RL Ignore lists, we have an app for that.

Septimus
08-11-2011, 01:08 PM
You haven't learned how to play with your phone properly.

Iphone RL Ignore lists, we have an app for that.

I have a regular phone that no one calls, why do I need a phone to take with me everywhere I go that no one calls?!

One day I am going to be the grumpiest of grumpy old men.

Dallas
08-11-2011, 02:59 PM
This is why we can't get off the topic of LOLMELEE SMN

Yell at Korpg for inviting me back. I really don't care what SE does for SMN adjustments. En-element? Staff WS? MP to damage? I'll win.

Leonlionheart
08-11-2011, 06:30 PM
No, you won't.

Nope.

Sorry.

Melee SMN sucks.

Kthxbai.

Kristal
08-11-2011, 07:40 PM
In regards to support capability, we’re thinking more in the direction of adjustments that will differ from white mage.

Instead of just simply adding a high-tier Cure, we’re looking into making it so scholars can raise their performance further by enhancing the effects of stratagem use and regen-type magic. However, this doesn’t mean that we won’t be adding a high-tier Cure later down the line.
Tank: I'm in the red! Medic!
SCH: I got this. (casts regen-type spell)
Tank: What was that?
SCH: Don't worry, you'll be good as new in five minutes.
*tank dies*


That depends on the type of Regen. Normal Regen wouldn't cut it, but what if the Regen effect depended on the amount of damage on the target? Or it recovered a % of HP, rather then a fixed amount? Or both? Or was a sphere effect?

Heal
RDM 91 : Single target spell on party member, target recovers a % of HP every tick. Effect becomes stronger at lower HP.

Regen Helix
SCH 91 : Single target spell on enemy, target emits a Regen Aura that heals party members. Affected by Modus Veritas.

Seriha
08-11-2011, 08:28 PM
There's also the prospect of simple damage mitigation spells. As a static number, Phalanx hasn't grown very well. However, if you can slap a -25% DT onto someone that'd stack with gear on top of that, you wouldn't need to cure as hard. Though, I'm sure some would whine about easy mode if -75% PDT/MDT was possible for tanky types, or expect future content to be balanced around that presence so mobs would just do obscenely much more damage without.

Between RDM and SCH, each should probably pick one of those types and run with it.

Dallas
08-12-2011, 12:26 AM
Rak, any SMN who doesn't melee has willingly chosen to do half or less of their potential damage. If being the only player who applies the rules of FFXI makes me superhuman, then you know the answer.


No, you won't.

Nope.

Sorry.

Melee SMN sucks.

Kthxbai.
And yet the only job you won't compare me to is your SMN. LOL

Malamasala
08-12-2011, 12:53 AM
That way, these forums will always be plagued because people like Malamasala will occasionally back him up.


I'm independent, thank you very much. I don't counter Dalla's claims, because I don't have an empyrean staff to evaluate his claims. I counter Korpg's claims because I've proved them wrong personally and he is just spreading lies. And that is why it looks like I leave Dallas alone and pick on Korpg.

I'm sure you'd call me out also if I constantly went around these forums and claimed WAR/WHM is the best job combo, and can main heal. Especially since my WAR is level 45 or so and I've only leveled it as a subjob, so I haven't actually explored my facts first hand, just made them up on the spot.

Korpg
08-12-2011, 04:22 AM
I'm independent, thank you very much. I don't counter Dalla's claims, because I don't have an empyrean staff to evaluate his claims. I counter Korpg's claims because I've proved them wrong personally and he is just spreading lies. And that is why it looks like I leave Dallas alone and pick on Korpg.

I'm sure you'd call me out also if I constantly went around these forums and claimed WAR/WHM is the best job combo, and can main heal. Especially since my WAR is level 45 or so and I've only leveled it as a subjob, so I haven't actually explored my facts first hand, just made them up on the spot.

Wait, you proved me wrong on what? That you think that Spirits need an update? That avatars aren't good enough for you? What was it exactly?

You don't counter Dallas because you actually agree with him about meleeing with SMN. You and Al both defend him constantly, although Al only defends the MP side of the argument. But you basically are Dallas's toady. Everywhere he goes, there you are to defend his insane ideas.

Melee SMNs have no place in a party/alliance that is killing something harder than EMs, or killing anything harder than exp mobs in Abyssea. But you guys, Dallas especially, and you backing him up, constantly state that if a Melee SMN can't melee on the mob, neither should the WAR. I have yet to hear Dallas explaining why a SMN should be allowed to melee, feed TP to a mob, and for it to be reasonable. Neither of you have a leg to stand on, but yet, you continue to state that you are both gods of the world and anything different is heretic to your name.

Besides, you should know that WAR/WHM has about as much healing ability as a SMN/WHM. Only difference is MP from SMN, but the cures are the same, recast are the same, and gimping your job is the same. A job should not be defined by the subjob it chooses.

Dallas
08-12-2011, 04:50 AM
Poor K, would a 5 year old thread showing how well SMN fared on greater colibri shut you up? I will only offer it up to shut you up.

Korpg
08-12-2011, 06:40 AM
Poor K, would a 5 year old thread showing how well SMN fared on greater colibri shut you up? I will only offer it up to shut you up.

Wait, let me guess, you have a parse where you were the SMN meleeing against a BRD melee, a RDM melee, a PLD tank, a DNC using H2H, and a SAM using a gimp GK on birds, right? Because A) Birds really show the differences between jobs and mobs, and B) Birds are the hardest thing out there at the time.

Let me see the parse between a melee SMN and an emp weapon on any job, including BRD, DNC, and heck, BLM and SCH. Specially your SMN.

Leonlionheart
08-12-2011, 07:27 AM
You know he won't quit, even though the actual discussion of Real SMN vs Melee turdface is basically over.

Verdict: Melee when it's not detrimental to the battle outcome, don't when it is. That goes for pretty much EVERY JOB though.

Hint: If you're using SMN, it's probably a situation where being in melee range is detrimental to your health and sanity. I.E. Angius(Flux 7 WoE), Flux 5 WoE, Voidwatch, etc. Otherwise just don't use the job.

Neisan_Quetz
08-12-2011, 07:43 AM
Dallas = Craftermath, I'm convinced of it now.

Tarage
08-12-2011, 01:14 PM
A quick FFXI search shows that there is no character called Tagurit on Fenrir, or on any server.

It would be nice if Dallas would provide us with his real account, but I suspect he doesn't even have one.

Dallas
08-13-2011, 12:10 AM
LLH, if only you were siding with people who believe "melee when you can melee.". I've always claimed that everyone but the Gimp SMN crowd has the sense to know the difference. Unfortunately for you, you chose to side with idiots. Your judgement is lacking.

Korpg
08-13-2011, 01:39 AM
LLH, if only you were siding with people who believe "melee when you can melee.". I've always claimed that everyone but the Gimp SMN crowd has the sense to know the difference. Unfortunately for you, you chose to side with idiots. Your judgement is lacking.

But wait, everyone but you doesn't melee. So you are basically saying that everyone is gimp except you....

Maybe we feel more useful not asking for raise every 30 seconds, I don't know.

Besides, I'm still waiting for that parse of yours. Where is it? Does it exist?

Razushu
08-13-2011, 02:20 AM
LLH, if only you were siding with people who believe "melee when you can melee.". I've always claimed that everyone but the Gimp SMN crowd has the sense to know the difference. Unfortunately for you, you chose to side with idiots. Your judgement is lacking.

He literally said that in his last post.


You know he won't quit, even though the actual discussion of Real SMN vs Melee turdface is basically over.

Verdict: Melee when it's not detrimental to the battle outcome, don't when it is. That goes for pretty much EVERY JOB though.

Hint: If you're using SMN, it's probably a situation where being in melee range is detrimental to your health and sanity. I.E. Angius(Flux 7 WoE), Flux 5 WoE, Voidwatch, etc. Otherwise just don't use the job.

In fact we're all pretty much saying that, I alone have stated it at least 10 times in various threads. Why are you bothering attempting a saveface now, all along you've claimed melee is the only way to play SMN, claimed it will match(or come close to) an Ukon WAR, and a SMN should melee anything a WAR is allowed near. This last post is the first time I've seen you say anything remotely close to "melee when you can melee."

Dallas
08-13-2011, 03:20 AM
Raz, as I've said a dozen times the Ukon crying is all your problem, as I have never been interested in the performance of WAR.

Ignore the Ukon butthurt brigade. How can you fake approving any melee SMN? Anyone playing as much SMN as you has seen thousands of trash mobs. You don't have capped staff skill so you must be lying. Maybe the 99% of the game that doesn't kill me is too hard for you? Gimp explosion!

Dallas
08-13-2011, 03:22 AM
I *can* melee anywhere a WAR can melee. Sucks to not be me, I guess.

Razushu
08-13-2011, 03:28 AM
I *can* melee anywhere a WAR can melee. Sucks to not be me, I guess.

Yet you're unable to prove it.

Razushu
08-13-2011, 03:37 AM
Raz, as I've said a dozen times the Ukon crying is all your problem, as I have never been interested in the performance of WAR.

Ignore the Ukon butthurt brigade. How can you fake approving any melee SMN? Anyone playing as much SMN as you has seen thousands of trash mobs. You don't have capped staff skill so you must be lying. Maybe the 99% of the game that doesn't kill me is too hard for you? Gimp explosion!

That's the funny thing about trash mobs, they give trash skill ups. Or are you now claiming you capped your staff on EP-- mobs? Not to mention I don't always bother to melee on anything even, usually if it's viable there's not much point in it unless you're gimping your perp/refresh set and your Avatars BPs anyway.

Korpg
08-13-2011, 03:49 AM
Raz, as I've said a dozen times the Ukon crying is all your problem, as I have never been interested in the performance of WAR.

Ignore the Ukon butthurt brigade. How can you fake approving any melee SMN? Anyone playing as much SMN as you has seen thousands of trash mobs. You don't have capped staff skill so you must be lying. Maybe the 99% of the game that doesn't kill me is too hard for you? Gimp explosion!

Yeah, I don't die to Wild Rabbits either, or Carrion Worms, or Sand Lizards. But none of those mobs, or 99% of the game, really defines a player, or a job, or anything.

It is that 1% of the content, the 1% where you need to do more than send bodies at, that really defines a player, a job, a skill. Just because the hardest thing you have ever faced was a Sandsweeper in A-Altep doesn't mean that you can melee on anything a WAR can. I'm still waiting for your parse on something worthwhile, like AV, PW, or Pank. Heck, I'll even take Amphitrite.

Leonlionheart
08-13-2011, 04:10 AM
SMN should never even be near Amphitrite, too hard to control damage unless you summon -> BP -> release.

Even then it can mode change during the avatar's casting period and boom, healed 5k.

Edit: Hell, you shouldn't bring SMN to anything that can heal.

Dallas
08-13-2011, 07:28 AM
I don't need to prove anything, Rak. That's the beauty of it. There are a dozen melee jobs that can only melee. SE made content with melee in mind. Using the same rules melee jobs use, SMN can melee. This was figured out in 2006. I don't need to prove that 2006 happened.

Today, the gear is better. The skill is better. The mp recovery is astronomical. The original goal has disappeared. The new goal is identical to every other job: max damage. As one of the only SMN who cares enough to play the same min/max game as everyone else, it is no wonder that I upset a bunch of underskilled SMN.

Tarage
08-13-2011, 01:29 PM
I don't need to prove anything, Rak. That's the beauty of it. There are a dozen melee jobs that can only melee. SE made content with melee in mind. Using the same rules melee jobs use, SMN can melee. This was figured out in 2006. I don't need to prove that 2006 happened.

Today, the gear is better. The skill is better. The mp recovery is astronomical. The original goal has disappeared. The new goal is identical to every other job: max damage. As one of the only SMN who cares enough to play the same min/max game as everyone else, it is no wonder that I upset a bunch of underskilled SMN.

What is your character's name and what server are you on?

Korpg
08-13-2011, 02:20 PM
SMN should never even be near Amphitrite, too hard to control damage unless you summon -> BP -> release.

Even then it can mode change during the avatar's casting period and boom, healed 5k.

Edit: Hell, you shouldn't bring SMN to anything that can heal.

Damn it Leo, I was hoping that nobody would catch that so I could point out that little fact....

Leonlionheart
08-13-2011, 05:23 PM
I don't need to prove anything, Rak. That's the beauty of it. There are a dozen melee jobs that can only melee. SE made content with melee in mind. Using the same rules melee jobs use, SMN can melee. This was figured out in 2006. I don't need to prove that 2006 happened.

Today, the gear is better. The skill is better. The mp recovery is astronomical. The original goal has disappeared. The new goal is identical to every other job: max damage. As one of the only SMN who cares enough to play the same min/max game as everyone else, it is no wonder that I upset a bunch of underskilled SMN.

It's great your trying to maximize your damage it really is. However I have to inform you that you are doing it very wrong.

How to maximize damage: PLAY A DIFFERENT JOB. No matter what you do, SMN will NEVER get close to the damage real DDs do, without a weapon worth a damn and an actually powerful weaponskill, it's completely impossible to ever parse up to the high powered DDs. The potential simply isn't there. Yes, you can do more damage than before by putting yourself in a situation that SMN shouldn't be used, where the option of changing jobs would actually be the way to go. SMN just isn't a OMG WTF HOW IS IT DEAD ALREADY job. It's a LOLOLOL YOU CANT TOUCH ME BUT I CAN TOUCH YOU job.

If you want to be good at SMN by maximizing your damage, k. If you want to be good at FFXI by maximizing your damage, SMN is the wrong job for you.

Tarage
08-13-2011, 07:02 PM
Can I make a suggestion?

Stop arguing with him. He is either a moderately good troll, or someone who will never attempt to have a rational argument. Either way, just ignore him.

Leonlionheart
08-13-2011, 07:05 PM
Can I make a suggestion?

Stop arguing with him. He is either a moderately good troll, or someone who will never attempt to have a rational argument. Either way, just ignore him.

Well that's true, but I think a lot of that information goes for other players as well. There's a job change system for a reason.

Malamasala
08-14-2011, 06:30 AM
Well that's true, but I think a lot of that information goes for other players as well. There's a job change system for a reason.

So you can play only the 6 good jobs, of course.

Leonlionheart
08-14-2011, 06:33 AM
So you can play only the 6 good jobs, of course.

No, so you can adapt to the situation.

Need PLD for Voidwatch.

Need SMN for WoE.

Need WAR for Abyssea.

Dallas
08-14-2011, 09:44 AM
Levelling another job to beat SMN? All you. First go level war. Then buy two mules for WHM and BRD. Then if you can play all 3 at once, you can rightfully say you replaced 1 SMN. Have fun spending 3x the time gearing your hybrid replacement.

Economizer
08-14-2011, 10:32 AM
Have fun spending 3x the time gearing your hybrid replacement.

Who the hell gears a dual boxed White Mage in anything you can't buy beyond maybe the AF3 hat? And you can get that in an hour. I've seen so many Light/Apollo Staffs and Healing Staffs it isn't even funny. At least a Templar Mace is arguably for procing club.

Leonlionheart
08-14-2011, 11:24 AM
Levelling another job to beat SMN? All you. First go level war. Then buy two mules for WHM and BRD. Then if you can play all 3 at once, you can rightfully say you replaced 1 SMN. Have fun spending 3x the time gearing your hybrid replacement.

Got WAR and I have actual friends that like to play WHM and BRD.

Need foreveralone.jpg for Dallas w/ him hugging garuda up in here, stat.

Nah, but really, you're stupid since you're saying that SMN can fill any one of those roles.
Can't touch WAR doing it's WAR thing. There's like a 500% difference (5:1) in dps.
Can't touch a WHM doing it's WHM thing. Cure VI can do 1500, Cure IV can do 500 (3:1) in cures.
Can't touch a BRD doing it's BRD thing. March+Haste: 43% haste, Hastega: 15% haste (2.86:1).

You know what, for the hell of it I'll compare SMN dps to PUP dps too. PUP can cap haste in gear, can use Victory Smite, and Automatons can get Haste for free (lol U mad garuda?). PUP vs. SMN dps is probably 3:1, and Automaton vs. Avatar dps is probably 2:1. Now if you go do what SMN is built for on PUP you will crash and burn because PUP isn't built to successfully kite while dealing somewhat significant damage.

So SMN is just a useless piece of crap in your terms. Sure it can do all 3, but not effectively (there's a reason no one does what you do lolol) and not nearly well enough for people to actually want to party with you.

Now get the f*** out of the way and kite a mob till it's dead, SMN can do that. And it can do it well.

Korpg
08-14-2011, 12:18 PM
Now get the f*** out of the way and kite a mob till it's dead, SMN can do that. And it can do it well.

Can do it very well, in fact, the best job to do that type of killing.

Too bad Dallas hasn't discovered that and continues to cling on the hopes of trying to be a melee-mage.

Leonlionheart
08-14-2011, 01:44 PM
It's just silly using SMN in that way when everyone else can do strict DPS so much better.

No one else can do what SMN does, but everyone can do what Melee SMN does.

Malamasala
08-15-2011, 03:54 AM
I still don't get why people argue about these things still.

SMN: Melee for TP to MP or backline for resting MP.
COR: Melee for TP or backline shooting for TP.
SAM: Relic Great Katana for melee, or relic Bow for ranged.

It is simply a pick whatever fits the situation kind of thing. You don't have to pretend only one way is the valid way and anything else is done by gimps.

Korpg
08-15-2011, 06:14 AM
SMN: Melee for TP to MP or backline for resting MP.


Except, you don't need to rest for MP nowadays.

Even you should know that!

SpankWustler
08-15-2011, 07:03 AM
I still don't get why people argue about these things still.

SMN: Melee for TP to MP or backline for resting MP.
COR: Melee for TP or backline shooting for TP.
SAM: Relic Great Katana for melee, or relic Bow for ranged.

It is simply a pick whatever fits the situation kind of thing. You don't have to pretend only one way is the valid way and anything else is done by gimps.

I think, for most people involved in this hopeless fracas, it's Dallas's tone more than anything he's actually saying. The man has a unique talent for holding high a bottle of Extra-Strength Tylenol and saying with conviction that it can cure every affliction of the mind, body, and soul.

Quiet a few people have even said "Sure, bonk stuff with your staff if you somehow end up on Summoner in a situation when it's safe to bonk things. I don't mind, and more damage is more damage."

Getting back on topic...Why Charmna rather than Amnesiana? I always liked Charm as an irremovable ailment, since it's already such a huge effect. Amnesia, on the other hand, is just a twist on Silence and White Mage already has a Bar- spell for it. Also, "Amnesiana" could totally be the name of a 50 year old woman from Alabama.

Malamasala
08-15-2011, 07:37 AM
Except, you don't need to rest for MP nowadays.

Even you should know that!

I can actually waste my MP very fast with cure IV, thank you very much!

Korpg
08-15-2011, 12:31 PM
I can actually waste my MP very fast with cure IV, thank you very much!

Ever thought about changing jobs? WHM would suit you, and you would be more desirable than being a SMN. You wouldn't need to learn how to be a WHM since you spam Cure IV constantly anyway.

Dallas
08-15-2011, 02:06 PM
I think, for most people involved in this hopeless fracas, it's Dallas's tone more than anything he's actually saying.

No, they hate that I ignore bad advice to suck at SMN and go waste all my time playing a limited role job. I ignore it because the best lies they can muster were disproven 5 years ago. It's really that simple.

Leonlionheart
08-15-2011, 02:26 PM
Getting back on topic...Why Charmna rather than Amnesiana? I always liked Charm as an irremovable ailment, since it's already such a huge effect. Amnesia, on the other hand, is just a twist on Silence and White Mage already has a Bar- spell for it. Also, "Amnesiana" could totally be the name of a 50 year old woman from Alabama.

I like charm the way it is honestly. Being able to remove it would make all the fights that use it completely mindless. As if CC isn't already the easiest NM in the game. Charm fights are actually fun, don't ruin them.

AMNESIA on the other hand is just... awful. Gimps DDs, and renders DNC useless. Although I don't think that Amnesna should be 100% remove, like Poisona, but rather like Cursna and Doom. It's a powerful debuff, and increases difficulty of many battles, that would otherwise end in seconds.

Korpg
08-15-2011, 02:56 PM
No, they hate that I ignore bad advice to suck at SMN and go waste all my time playing a limited role job. I ignore it because the best lies they can muster were disproven 5 years ago. It's really that simple.

I'm still waiting for that parse, you know. You keep saying that melee SMN was proven to be effective 5 years ago, and you said you would bring out the numbers, but guess what, we are all still waiting. Still need a little bit more time to fake the numbers?

Razushu
08-15-2011, 06:49 PM
I'm still waiting for that parse, you know. You keep saying that melee SMN was proven to be effective 5 years ago, and you said you would bring out the numbers, but guess what, we are all still waiting. Still need a little bit more time to fake the numbers?

He said he would only produce it if you stopped talking about melee SMN afterwards, that parse most be pretty terrible if he needs you to agree never to mention it again beforehand.

Dallas
08-15-2011, 11:40 PM
No Raz, shutting him up was good for the community. Everything I do is for the betterment of the SMN community.

Razushu
08-15-2011, 11:46 PM
No Raz, shutting him up was good for the community. Everything I do is for the betterment of the SMN community.

Oh this including trying like hell to derail the one SMN thread SE was reading with your "I'm a SMN and the only way to play it is melee DERP!" bullsh*t? You have done nothing for the SMN community, but try make us a laughing stock once again.

Korpg
08-15-2011, 11:51 PM
No Raz, shutting him up was good for the community. Everything I do is for the betterment of the SMN community.

You know, if you really was willing to "shut me up" you would have produced that parse in the first place. You know, to "shut me up."

Dallas
08-16-2011, 12:47 AM
Raz, max damage is not arguable. You either do it or you don't. Stop arguing against it. You are in no position to challenge my claim. No one who can challenge me has. Take the hint.

Razushu
08-16-2011, 12:52 AM
Raz, max damage is not arguable. You either do it or you don't. Stop arguing against it. You are in no position to challenge my claim. No one who can challenge me has. Take the hint.

Nobody thinks you're anything other than a troll, provide evidence that SMN is capable of a fraction of what you claim it is or admit you're full of sh*t.

Dallas
08-16-2011, 01:36 AM
Nobody thinks you're anything other than a troll, provide evidence that SMN is capable of a fraction of what you claim it is or admit you're full of sh*t.

Very well. I provide the signatures in this forum as evidence. You did say *nobody*, but I see a SMN in full haste and Hver.

Razushu
08-16-2011, 01:47 AM
Very well. I provide the signatures in this forum as evidence. You did say *nobody*, but I see a SMN in full haste and Hver.

Are you referring to Karbuncle's sig? Because they said themselves they got it done as a joke, it's a play on Korpg's sig. Unless theres someone else's sig I've missed.

Also what does someone having a melee SMN sig have to do with you not being a troll?

Korpg
08-16-2011, 02:04 AM
Raz, max damage is not arguable. You either do it or you don't. Stop arguing against it. You are in no position to challenge my claim. No one who can challenge me has. Take the hint.

You haven't proven anything. When asked for proof, you state that you don't have to provide anything. That is the complete opposite of proof. Its called bulls***. Everyone is going to challenge you because you make baseless claims, and we want proof!

It is far easier to make stuff up than it is to actually prove it.

Karbuncle
08-16-2011, 02:05 AM
In seriousness though if I had all the armor i had in my sig my ass would be up and down mobs 24/7, if i died, oh well, Exp is Exp, easier to come by than anything else in this game. Then again I'm a melee nutt :X.

I know my situations though, and i know my potential.

I'm working on a Hver just because i wanna toy with it, See its true potential, I'll even post my results too, I bet some people might be surprised. Just like the recent RDM Melee parse, sometimes a job can surprise you, the RDM wasn't super, but they did do better than expected.

So if anything, I'll post the results for dallas once i get them. Avatar+Me vs all comers, I'll see how well i do, and I think it won't be too awful. I'm curious to see how much % My damage will be Vs. my Avatars as well, thats important too.

I dread Bhukis though.

Korpg
08-16-2011, 02:05 AM
Very well. I provide the signatures in this forum as evidence. You did say *nobody*, but I see a SMN in full haste and Hver.

Karby's sig was a play against me, which he admitted also. Also, it was a slap in the face against you, which he also has admitted. You using him as evidence just shows how clueless you really are.

Korpg
08-16-2011, 02:06 AM
In seriousness though if I had all the armor i had in my sig my ass would be up and down mobs 24/7, if i died, oh well, Exp is Exp, easier to come by than anything else in this game. Then again I'm a melee nutt :X.

I know my situations though, and i know my potential.

I'm working on a Hver just because i wanna toy with it, See its true potential, I'll even post my results too, I bet some people might be surprised. Just like the recent RDM Melee parse, sometimes a job can surprise you, the RDM wasn't super, but they did do better than expected.

Can I join you with my Ukon so we can have a real Ukon vs Hver parse?

Karbuncle
08-16-2011, 02:09 AM
Can I join you with my Ukon so we can have a real Ukon vs Hver parse?

By all means, I want a true test!

I'm curious in two things

1) My % of Damage vs my pets

2) My combined % Vs a Heavy Melee DD.

These are very important factors, For instance, If my Dmg is only 25% of yours combined with pet, it may look bad, But if i do 50% more damage than my pet (i.e my pet does 10%, i do 15%) then My melee actually added significantly more damage than i would have got not meleeing.

I'm really curious in 1), I know 2) won't be very close, But im really curious just how much more damage i would add meleeing than i would get if i did not. I already know our Staff hits can do more than our pets hits, and I know we as SMN get bonuses from haste/etc, so we already come out heavy in the DPS department over our pets.

its the WS damage I'm worried about, but with 2x Procs i think it might level out in the end, I expect to do at least 100% or more of my pets total damage, which would effectively double my damage output vs not meleeing.

Either Way, I don't actually doubt what dallas is saying, he may be exaggerating a little, but i think this parse might surprise people more than you think, and i feel the most important factor is going to be my % vs my Avatars.

Korpg
08-16-2011, 02:27 AM
By all means, I want a true test!

I'm curious in two things

1) My % of Damage vs my pets

2) My combined % Vs a Heavy Melee DD.

These are very important factors, For instance, If my Dmg is only 25% of yours combined with pet, it may look bad, But if i do 50% more damage than my pet (i.e my pet does 10%, i do 15%) then My melee actually added significantly more damage than i would have got not meleeing.

I'm really curious in 1), I know 2) won't be very close, But im really curious just how much more damage i would add meleeing than i would get if i did not. I already know our Staff hits can do more than our pets hits, and I know we as SMN get bonuses from haste/etc, so we already come out heavy in the DPS department over our pets.

its the WS damage I'm worried about, but with 2x Procs i think it might level out in the end, I expect to do at least 100% or more of my pets total damage, which would effectively double my damage output vs not meleeing.

Either Way, I don't actually doubt what dallas is saying, he may be exaggerating a little, but i think this parse might surprise people more than you think, and i feel the most important factor is going to be my % vs my Avatars.

Well, you also have to figure that the lower the % of total DPS between the two of us, the better the chance you would do multiple times more damage.

But I don't think that Emp Staff would be anywhere near as useful as any other emp weapon. Which is the whole point of TP feeding the mob.

Karbuncle
08-16-2011, 02:33 AM
I don't know, TP Feeding a mob isn't really a big problem unless you're fighting something particularly dangerous, very few of those types of mobs exist these days, In fact i can only really name a handful.

Still, Empyrean Staff is the only one that uses Sedna/Kukulkan Items if i remember right, So not like its wasting anything. Only problem will be 90 where its on the same trial as Shield. still, Hver90 is D:98, DPS of 1508, Only 160DPS behind Ukon90. So its got a pretty solid ground there.

I don't expect it to come very close, But I suspect the damage output might surprise you, and i definitely think, at least in Abyssea, it will do enough to be "Worth the TP Feed" on a lot of mobs.

Now on things like apademak or something.... different case.

But i truly think the damage is going to shock a few people, and i especially think I will do better numbers than my Avatar in the long run.

SpankWustler
08-16-2011, 02:34 AM
That would be really interesting to see. So much about mage melee tends to be based on a mixture of theory-craft and vitriol, from both sides, so it's always good to see numbers from actual situations. If nothing else, people would have the minutia of a parse to throw conniption fits over and that would be a refreshing change of pace.

Karbuncle
08-16-2011, 02:35 AM
I think the RDM melee parse was a good step in the direction of knowledge over hear-say.

I think a SMN melee parse would be good info, I just want to make sure i have the best gear for the situation when it comes down to it. So it might take me a while, but i'll hold true to my word and get the weapon.

Razushu
08-16-2011, 02:48 AM
I think the RDM melee parse was a good step in the direction of knowledge over hear-say.

I think a SMN melee parse would be good info, I just want to make sure i have the best gear for the situation when it comes down to it. So it might take me a while, but i'll hold true to my word and get the weapon.

Good luck! Karb. Are you going to do the parse inside or outside Abyssea? Or both?

Karbuncle
08-16-2011, 02:50 AM
Good luck! Karb. Are you going to do the parse inside or outside Abyssea? Or both?

I'd be willing to do both, But I'd like to try Inside abyssea, its where i feel the job is best meleeing.

Outside IDK where i'd go or what mobs to fight.

Korpg
08-16-2011, 02:56 AM
I'd be willing to do both, But I'd like to try Inside abyssea, its where i feel the job is best meleeing.

Outside IDK where i'd go or what mobs to fight.

We could do both. Lets talk about it when you get online.

Razushu
08-16-2011, 02:58 AM
I'd be willing to do both, But I'd like to try Inside abyssea, its where i feel the job is best meleeing.

Outside IDK where i'd go or what mobs to fight.

In Abyssea it wouldn't really prove much(imo), with atmas any job can melee fine as is, and stuff like cruor buffs would atleast skew the SMN vs. Avatar test. Can't think of where to go off the top of my head the GoV/mob placement update added lots of Ts to old areas though so I'm sure theres at least one place you could test.

Karbuncle
08-16-2011, 03:07 AM
In Abyssea it wouldn't really prove much(imo), with atmas any job can melee fine as is, and stuff like cruor buffs would atleast skew the SMN vs. Avatar test. Can't think of where to go off the top of my head the GoV/mob placement update added lots of Ts to old areas though so I'm sure theres at least one place you could test.

Well i had always believed SMN Melee held its best spotlight In abyssea, testing it outside would go against my current beliefs of its uses. However, I'd be willing to try the ~T mobs in GoV Areas... That may require outside assistance (like, a WHM lol, maybe a real tank).

still would not be against the idea.

Razushu
08-16-2011, 03:25 AM
Well i had always believed SMN Melee held its best spotlight In abyssea, testing it outside would go against my current beliefs of its uses. However, I'd be willing to try the ~T mobs in GoV Areas... That may require outside assistance (like, a WHM lol, maybe a real tank).

still would not be against the idea.

Well as a test of mage melee at it's best, an Abyssean run is fine.

But you said you wanted to test SMN vs. a Heavy DD, which Abyssea would make a poor test ground. As you will be looking for a mathematical comparison of the two.

Atmas and Cruor buffs will turn EMs~Ts into EPs~DCs for all intents and purposes, which anything can swing a weapon at. These buffs, I feel would also alter the difference between the SMN and the WAR.

The following is a hypothetical example and is not based on real or believed values:

If on a T++ the WAR with it's best gear is close to capping ACC(say 92%), and the SMN is a bit away from cap(80%) in it's best available gear, these numbers are obvisiously just an example(for any who are looking to argue). Now lets say both are using Atma of RR, the WAR caps acc to spare with tonnes left over, and the SMN may well close that gap and also cap acc. In this case the test is invalid because it indicates that a SMN vs. WAR are the same in terms of acc.

This would work both ways lets say to cap acc on a mob WAR only needs RR, where as SMN needs RR and C&D, then the test is invalid because the WAR can equip 2 heavy DD atmas whereas the SMN is stuck with only one.

-NOT SO NINJA EDIT-

A SMN vs. it's Pet test would also be of less worth in Abyssea seeing how pets are screwed out of ~70 STR & DEX from cruor buffs that the master gets.

Korpg
08-16-2011, 03:25 AM
Well i had always believed SMN Melee held its best spotlight In abyssea, testing it outside would go against my current beliefs of its uses. However, I'd be willing to try the ~T mobs in GoV Areas... That may require outside assistance (like, a WHM lol, maybe a real tank).

still would not be against the idea.

I can still tank and do damage, give me a WHM and I can do any mobs pretty much.

Korpg
08-16-2011, 03:28 AM
Well as a test of mage melee at it's best, an Abyssean run is fine.

But you said you wanted to test SMN vs. a Heavy DD, which Abyssea would make a poor test ground. As you will be looking for a mathematical comparison of the two.

Atmas and Cruor buffs will turn EMs~Ts into EPs~DCs for all intents and purposes, which anything can swing a weapon at. These buffs, I feel would also alter the difference between the SMN and the WAR.

The following is a hypothetical example and is not based on real or believed values:

If on a T++ the WAR with it's best gear is close to capping ACC(say 92%), and the SMN is a bit away from cap(80%) in it's best available gear, these numbers are obvisiously just an example(for any who are looking to argue). Now lets say both are using Atma of RR, the WAR caps acc to spare with tonnes left over, and the SMN may well close that gap and also cap acc. In this case the test is invalid because it indicates that a SMN vs. WAR are the same in terms of acc.

This would work both ways lets say to cap acc on a mob WAR only needs RR, where as SMN needs RR and C&D, then the test is invalid because the WAR can equip 2 heavy DD atmas whereas the SMN is stuck with only one.

Then lets make it so the SMN + Avatar and the WAR has the same atmas:

Apoc, RR, and VV.

Curor Buffs will decide the outcome, unless Karby has all abyssites for Cruor buffs, then we will be on "equal" footing in that case too.

Karbuncle
08-16-2011, 03:30 AM
Then lets make it so the SMN + Avatar and the WAR has the same atmas:

Apoc, RR, and VV.

Curor Buffs will decide the outcome, unless Karby has all abyssites for Cruor buffs, then we will be on "equal" footing in that case too.

I actually do have all Abyssites for Cruor buffs >_>;; However, if i did do that, I was planning on using VV/RR/Apoc.

I'd like to do both tests, But as i said, I'm working on the gear now and im a slow person, so it might be a while before we can solidly do this, But i will hold to my word and test it!

Korpg
08-16-2011, 03:32 AM
I actually do have all Abyssites for Cruor buffs >_>;; However, if i did do that, I was planning on using VV/RR/Apoc.

I'd like to do both tests, But as i said, I'm working on the gear now and im a slow person, so it might be a while before we can solidly do this, But i will hold to my word and test it!

Are you going to do 85 Hver or 90? You should get 90 because it won't really be that long before I get my 90 Ukon.

Also, lets do it regardless of the obligatory Dallas post: This test will not prove anything because I can't fudge the numbers in my favor!

Dallas
08-16-2011, 03:33 AM
Raz, I offered proof. You can choose to reject a drawing at your own risk.

If you want the parses, go to zam, find it in the sticky. That was back in the Martial vs ridill days. The gap in haste and weapon has narrowed. No, I won't make you shut up.

The picture is better. Free advertising. You have to look at that and know it worked in 2006. Same playstyle, MUCH easier game.

SpankWustler
08-16-2011, 03:35 AM
Well i had always believed SMN Melee held its best spotlight In abyssea, testing it outside would go against my current beliefs of its uses.

This makes a lot of sense, at least to me. You may already have Razed Ruin and Co. on for your pet, +90% HP makes generic AoEs much less threatening, there's rarely a profound need for an extra source of healing, leaving to change jobs can be problematic, etc.

Outside of Abyssea, the meaningful content is mostly Voidwatch and re-vamped older content. Bonking most of that stuff seems ill-advised and I'm not sure what point bonking GoV monsters would have. Maybe you could bring Havartidangler to bear against some Decent Challenge stuff in city dynamis zones?

Razushu
08-16-2011, 03:35 AM
Then lets make it so the SMN + Avatar and the WAR has the same atmas:

Apoc, RR, and VV.

Curor Buffs will decide the outcome, unless Karby has all abyssites for Cruor buffs, then we will be on "equal" footing in that case too.

Even with the same atmas there's a shadow of doubt on the result, although as for total damage contribution the gimp to pets from lack of cruor buffs to them.

I still think(could be wrong) that Atmas would, alter the results in terms of Acc, and possibly other ways.

Razushu
08-16-2011, 03:36 AM
This makes a lot of sense, at least to me. You may already have Razed Ruin and Co. on for your pet, +90% HP makes generic AoEs much less threatening, there's rarely a profound need for an extra source of healing, leaving to change jobs can be problematic, etc.

Outside of Abyssea, the meaningful content is mostly Voidwatch and re-vamped older content. Bonking most of that stuff seems ill-advised and I'm not sure what point bonking GoV monsters would have. Maybe you could bring Havartidangler to bear against some Decent Challenge stuff in city dynamis zones?

I lol'ed true story.

Korpg
08-16-2011, 03:37 AM
Raz, I offered proof. You can choose to reject a drawing at your own risk.

If you want the parses, go to zam, find it in the sticky. That was back in the Martial vs ridill days. The gap in haste and weapon has narrowed. No, I won't make you shut up.

The picture is better. Free advertising. You have to look at that and know it worked in 2006. Same playstyle, MUCH easier game.

Your proof is on the website notorious for bad information? And you want us to believe it? I would believe your information if it was on wiki, and even then they are falling down to Alla notoriety now (outdated information instead of incorrect information).

Razushu
08-16-2011, 03:40 AM
Raz, I offered proof. You can choose to reject a drawing at your own risk.

If you want the parses, go to zam, find it in the sticky. That was back in the Martial vs ridill days. The gap in haste and weapon has narrowed. No, I won't make you shut up.

The picture is better. Free advertising. You have to look at that and know it worked in 2006. Same playstyle, MUCH easier game.

Your willingness to ignore the obvious astounds.

Karbuncle
08-16-2011, 03:40 AM
This makes a lot of sense, at least to me. You may already have Razed Ruin and Co. on for your pet, +90% HP makes generic AoEs much less threatening, there's rarely a profound need for an extra source of healing, leaving to change jobs can be problematic, etc.

Outside of Abyssea, the meaningful content is mostly Voidwatch and re-vamped older content. Bonking most of that stuff seems ill-advised and I'm not sure what point bonking GoV monsters would have. Maybe you could bring Havartidangler to bear against some Decent Challenge stuff in city dynamis zones?

Perhaps, Kinda need Dynamis for my mandau :P, I don't think i could stomach Zerging mobs without procing there (which would be required for a decent test? I don't know, could work it out, but all the waiting to proc would skew it cause it would give time for BP timer to come up between fights).

On Razu:

I kinda agree, But I don't think it'd be a big problem, Like i said, I'll likely do an Outside and Inside test, I'm just vastly curious where a SMN melee would stand in both terms of DD vs a Real Melee, and DD vs our Avatars. I suspect great things to come.

Razushu
08-16-2011, 03:49 AM
I kinda agree, But I don't think it'd be a big problem, Like i said, I'll likely do an Outside and Inside test, I'm just vastly curious where a SMN melee would stand in both terms of DD vs a Real Melee, and DD vs our Avatars. I suspect great things to come.

Then theres no problem, a baseline test(outside), and one in the best scenario(Abyssea) could yield some interesting results in comparison. Although I'm more waiting for the baseline than the other.

I'm looking forward to seeing:

Avatar Vs. SMN

Avatar+ SMN Vs. WAR

*SMN(no pet) Vs. WAR

*This one because it will be the truest test of a mage(SMN in this case) meleeing.

Karbuncle
08-16-2011, 03:51 AM
My problem will be deciding between Keeping Aftermath up, or using a Decent WS for over-all damage. (Retribution can hit some pretty wonky numbers, especially with the right WS Gear).

Might have to run a few different tests in the long run.

Korpg
08-16-2011, 03:52 AM
My problem will be deciding between Keeping Aftermath up, or using a Decent WS for over-all damage. (Retribution can hit some pretty wonky numbers, especially with the right WS Gear).

Might have to run a few different tests in the long run.

I think your main problem will be MP. Since being in full melee gear would lose out a lot on perp gear.

Karbuncle
08-16-2011, 03:56 AM
I think your main problem will be MP. Since being in full melee gear would lose out a lot on perp gear.

Probably stick to keeping Aftermath up then (Myrkr recovers MP), Just use Mass MP Gear as "WS" gear, since its a % Recovery.

I think its doable...

Razushu
08-16-2011, 03:56 AM
I think your main problem will be MP. Since being in full melee gear would lose out a lot on perp gear.

Yeah you'll probably be tied in to Myrkr, or at the least Spirit Taker.

Dallas
08-16-2011, 04:31 AM
Don't worry about other WS options besides Myrkr. SE is promising a way around the BP timer cap. Likely by the time you get all gear, BPs will operate as a function of mp recovery (basically at WS speed). No WS is going to replace a BP.

Leonlionheart
08-16-2011, 05:34 AM
Don't worry about other WS options besides Myrkr. SE is promising a way around the BP timer cap. Likely by the time you get all gear, BPs will operate as a function of mp recovery (basically at WS speed). No WS is going to replace a BP.

Unlikely that they will reduce BP timer to 3 seconds

Karbuncle
08-16-2011, 05:39 AM
I think 3 Seconds is a bit generous, Average time to get 100% TP for a WAR, assuming capped haste... would be around 5 seconds, this is assuming uninterrupted melee, and a modest Double Attack rate, and Capped Haste values.

Leonlionheart
08-16-2011, 05:40 AM
When tanking, which I always find myself doing in abyssea, Retaliation really changes things.

Karbuncle
08-16-2011, 05:43 AM
I say ~0-1 seconds if you're tanking 8-10 Mandies then!

Razushu
08-16-2011, 05:46 AM
Unlikely that they will reduce BP timer to 3 seconds

Even if they did he would be completely out of MP is ~45 sec.

Leonlionheart
08-16-2011, 05:48 AM
Lol, well obviously Retaliation is hard to parse and compare because situations change drastically.

But hell if SMN gets the benefit of the doubt, why not WAR?

Dallas
08-16-2011, 06:08 AM
Unlikely that they will reduce BP timer to 3 seconds

Funny, we've fallen back on WAR stealing credit for a group again, huh? This time in tank mode, but never killing off anything and never spending any time WSing.

Focus please. Unbuffed, so back to 360 MP every 23 seconds. Will SE allow avatars to double BP rate for a price? Likely. More than 1000 mp/minute? Not likely.

Dallas
08-16-2011, 06:17 AM
Oh wow. You know what would be really awesome? Attaching "additional effect: reset spells and abilities" to the L95 version of Myrkr. LOL

Leonlionheart
08-16-2011, 06:34 AM
In Dallas's mind, SMN can do everything by itself. Sure, it can give it self some shitty buffs, sure it can do some really horrible AoE heals. But it can't go solo+melee Tablilla. It would need a healer for that.

Tarage
08-16-2011, 08:11 AM
Stop talking to him.

I'm serious. If you stop responding, he won't have anything. I'm going to start getting on people who reply to him. Stop.

Korpg
08-16-2011, 09:26 PM
Funny, we've fallen back on WAR stealing credit for a group again, huh? This time in tank mode, but never killing off anything and never spending any time WSing.

Focus please. Unbuffed, so back to 360 MP every 23 seconds. Will SE allow avatars to double BP rate for a price? Likely. More than 1000 mp/minute? Not likely.

Except you can't get 100% TP in 23 seconds. More like 45 seconds. Lets be realistic here. You got to add the time it takes away from casting cure on yourself from getting AoE spammed, Blood Pacting, and all those misses you will have.

Dallas
08-17-2011, 04:13 AM
Why yes, I do in fact believe that it is stupid to compare a hybrid job to a one-trick pony like whm or war. Even in 2006, when stupid was fstill fresh, they invited SMN to main heal because it had buffs and DD.

Korpg
08-17-2011, 05:00 AM
Because a WAR would make a better DD than a SMN and a WHM would make a better WHM than a SMN makes both those jobs stupid?

Also, SMNs were invited to main heal because they had a lot of MP and Auto Refresh, and if you still melee'd, you were doing it wrong. Too many noob SMNs thinking that they are WHMs helped me know how to solo better.

Besides, WHM doesn't have Haste either? I never knew!

Greatguardian
08-17-2011, 05:32 AM
Stop talking to him.

I'm serious. If you stop responding, he won't have anything. I'm going to start getting on people who reply to him. Stop.

Sfoidfjkmglhhjgjk

Freaking this.

It's worse than arguing with Pchan, I swear. Just ignore his posts and he'll go away again.

Korpg
08-17-2011, 05:47 AM
Sfoidfjkmglhhjgjk

Freaking this.

It's worse than arguing with Pchan, I swear. Just ignore his posts and he'll go away again.

True, but we be silent towards him and any noob would think that his way is the best, with the way Dallas is talking. At least we are keeping noobs from falling into the lolmeleesmn trap that Dallas is setting up.

I don't want SMN to be a loljob.

Razushu
08-17-2011, 08:25 AM
Why yes, I do in fact believe that it is stupid to compare a hybrid job to a one-trick pony like whm or war. Even in 2006, when stupid was fstill fresh, they invited SMN to main heal because it had buffs and DD.

I think you'll find people invited SMN to main heal because they didn't think we were a good spike DD/support.

Tarage
08-17-2011, 10:21 AM
Or you could just not talk to him and then he wouldn't get the attention he craves and would leave.

How about you do that. Now.

Dallas
08-17-2011, 11:36 PM
Tar, I have a dozen trolls that have to tell everyone to hate me with their every post. You have been one of those idiots ever since I told you to stop doing stupid things that wake up mobs. Grow a backbone.

One of these idiots is on my ignore list but your stupid posts keep coming. I would be ecstatic if subpar SMN would get lost when the discussion turns to something they know nothing about. No, you haven't got enough experience among the lot of you to convince me that my 5 years of melee smn is somehow non-existent because quitters level war. How stupid do people have to be to keep trying? Let's just be thankful you breathe and hope you figure out that I want you to shut up too.

Economizer
08-18-2011, 01:10 AM
Anyone have a tally of all the posts they've provided for each job so far, since the manifesto post?

I know that Black Mage got a confirmation of Meteor and Comet, and some other jobs go larger and smaller posts since then, including a smattering of Dragoon posts. Anyone got a scorecard for each job? I'd like to get some questions in on jobs they haven't provided many answers for before they answer.

Razushu
08-18-2011, 01:23 AM
Anyone have a tally of all the posts they've provided for each job so far, since the manifesto post?

I know that Black Mage got a confirmation of Meteor and Comet, and some other jobs go larger and smaller posts since then, including a smattering of Dragoon posts. Anyone got a scorecard for each job? I'd like to get some questions in on jobs they haven't provided many answers for before they answer.

Off the top of my head:

SMN got 4(1 in german)

BRD got 1

SCH got 4

SAM got 2

DNC got 1

NIN got 1

RNG got 1

DRG got 1

BLU got 1

COR got 1

MNK got 1

PLD got 2

RDM got 1

DRK got 1

PUP got 1

THF got 1

Bubeeky
08-18-2011, 01:24 AM
Anyone have a tally of all the posts they've provided for each job so far, since the manifesto post?

I know that Black Mage got a confirmation of Meteor and Comet, and some other jobs go larger and smaller posts since then, including a smattering of Dragoon posts. Anyone got a scorecard for each job? I'd like to get some questions in on jobs they haven't provided many answers for before they answer.

My scorecard says 4 posts for sch...meanwhile others like war and whm (I think war) have none....I understand that sch might have been slightly left behind recently, but really? four posts to zero?

Korpg
08-18-2011, 01:26 AM
Off the top of my head:

SMN got 3

BRD got 1

SCH got 4

SAM got 1

DNC got 1

NIN got 1

RNG got 1

DRG got 1

BLU got 1

COR got 1

SAM got 2 actually.

Korpg
08-18-2011, 01:28 AM
Or you could just not talk to him and then he wouldn't get the attention he craves and would leave.

How about you do that. Now.

That won't work for him though.

He will just come into any thread and chime in about how "great" his damage is without being invited into that conversation, and that conversation would not be about SMN either. But you do have a point.

Karbuncle
08-18-2011, 01:29 AM
THF got 1 as well

Sparthos
08-18-2011, 01:32 AM
PUP
BST
MNK

Razushu
08-18-2011, 01:33 AM
Off the top of my head:

SMN got 4(1 in german)

BRD got 1

SCH got 4

SAM got 2

DNC got 1

NIN got 1

RNG got 1

DRG got 1

BLU got 1

COR got 1

MNK got 1

PLD got 2

RDM got 1

DRK got 1

PUP got 1

THF got 1

Here's all I could find, damn my eyes for lack of multiple languages:D

Dallas
08-18-2011, 01:42 AM
What could a war possibly ask for? A 3h axe?

Korpg
08-18-2011, 01:46 AM
What could a war possibly ask for? A 3h axe?

Naw, I'll take a JA haste effect though. Something that won't overwrite Hasso either, so I can have both up at the same time. Something in the range of 15% haste JA.

Razushu
08-18-2011, 01:52 AM
What could a war possibly ask for? A 3h axe?

Found one!

http://philoillogica.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/worlds_giant_axe_004_3.jpg

Dallas
08-18-2011, 02:00 AM
Paul Bunyan is leaving his stuff in the yard again I see. LOL

Razushu
08-18-2011, 02:05 AM
Paul Bunyan is leaving his stuff in the yard again I see. LOL

I think it's actually the dat. for WAR's lvl99 weapon

Dallas
08-18-2011, 02:14 AM
Could be... could be.

Economizer
08-18-2011, 02:21 AM
Off the top of my head:

SMN got 4(1 in german)

BRD got 1

SCH got 4

SAM got 2

DNC got 1

NIN got 1

RNG got 1

DRG got 1

BLU got 1

COR got 1

MNK got 1

PLD got 2

RDM got 1

DRK got 1

PUP got 1

THF got 1

I believe BST got one as well now that I'm looking, and while I could have swore RNG got multiple posts I haven't been able to find it yet.

That leaves WAR, WHM, and BLM (ignoring the Meteor/Comet confirmation post).

Korpg
08-18-2011, 02:29 AM
I believe BST got one as well now that I'm looking, and while I could have swore RNG got multiple posts I haven't been able to find it yet.

That leaves WAR, WHM, and BLM (ignoring the Meteor/Comet confirmation post).

I don't think that WAR is going to get one because nobody has been asking for anything. We are already a top job in the game, and any improvement will further ourselves away from the rest of the pack. We are already getting our own JA for Crit Attack and our own JA to change weapon damage type to anything we want, which both of those JAs will be outstanding. Throw in more DA and Haste gear (preferably both in the same slot, like Haste +7% DA+5% on the hat slot) and we are golden.

Although, I won't say no to a JA haste for WAR.

Camate
08-18-2011, 02:50 AM
Now..I have seen some pretty sweet spells, but this new spell "Merton" for SCH is awesome.

Check it out:

<object width="560" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GvZN3rOSEHk?version=3&amp;hl=ja_JP"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GvZN3rOSEHk?version=3&amp;hl=ja_JP" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="349" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

We are still working out all the details, but we are planning to make it similar to the -ja-type BLM spells where the damage multiplies with each cast, along with the spell dealing initial damage as well as DoT. The DoT is the main attraction of this spell, so we wanted to show you how the HP gets lower and lower after the initial hit, however, no matter what we tried we it turned out to be too low-key and decided to go with this instead.

Karbuncle
08-18-2011, 02:58 AM
Foxclon outfoxed you!

He posted it first :P! http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11525-Thoughts-on-the-FFXI-Job-Adjustment-Manifesto?p=171398#post171398 (or did you guys mean to post it twice O.O)

(Also, Thats a really epic spell. I DONT WANNA BE DEBBY DOWNER ;;) YOU'RE MY FRIEND STILL D:

Camate
08-18-2011, 03:00 AM
Foxclon outfoxed you!

He posted it first :P! http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11525-Thoughts-on-the-FFXI-Job-Adjustment-Manifesto?p=171398#post171398 (or did you guys mean to post it twice O.O)

(Also, Thats a really epic spell. I DONT WANNA BE DEBBY DOWNER ;;) YOU'RE MY FRIEND STILL D:

Yeh...I didn't realize that until it was too late. Then I tried to delete it but you ALREADY POSTED! Thanks a lot Krabnuckle :p

Economizer
08-18-2011, 03:09 AM
Then I tried to delete it but

But you added some juicy information on what the team was thinking when they produced the video. You can't delete that! D:

Onward to my comment, if nobody else replies in between now and the time I finally hit the send button... I've already got to see three posts in between now and the original comment I was posting:


We are still working out all the details, but we are planning to make it similar to the -ja-type BLM spells where the damage multiplies with each cast, along with the spell dealing initial damage as well as DoT. The DoT is the main attraction of this spell, so we wanted to show you how the HP gets lower and lower after the initial hit, however, no matter what we tried we it turned out to be too low-key and decided to go with this instead.

Does this count as a fifth update for Scholar, or is it still part of the forth? :p


I don't think that WAR is going to get one because nobody has been asking for anything.

I recently checked the WAR forum, and besides a thread suggesting that WAR should get access to all non-ranged WS, I didn't really see and suggestions, and there were very few questions. Like Warrior, Black Mage also has a lot of job security, especially since they already got word of Meteor and Comet, and they're forums is mostly asking for bigger spells. (If any class has priorities, I would have to say it is Black Mage. I love you guys.) I really don't see either of these classes losing any sleep over some other class overshadowing them, particularly if, I dunno, they lost exclusivity on one spell or ability.

This could be a reason for a lack of Q&A for either of them. That said, I'd still like to see some more plans for these jobs. There is also a pretty lengthy list of suggestions, questions, and even demands from White Mage. And while I'm very happy to see new updates for any job, I'd like to know more about SE's designs for the remaining ones.

Karbuncle
08-18-2011, 03:13 AM
Yeh...I didn't realize that until it was too late. Then I tried to delete it but you ALREADY POSTED! Thanks a lot Krabnuckle :p

you can't escape my Private Eyes
they're watching you, they see your every move

But yah, what Econo said :P you added a bit more info which is good ^^

Nidhogg
08-18-2011, 03:13 AM
How long until there is a translation correction from Merton to Meltdown?

Karbuncle
08-18-2011, 03:14 AM
Probably couldn't use Meltdown because its a TP move used by Dolls?

I guess it could work though, i was just listing a possible reasoning for the name.