Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

[Malamasala]

Does anyone else find it rather ironic and insulting that SE has such a huge boner for DRK casting magic, and they haven't even pulled down the zipper on their pants so to speak:

And given us magic attack bonus I?

Just sayin'.

That is because they still haven't understood why DRKs are so dumb that they do not sub BLM for it.


The fact that the collective (or as you call it, "people") decreed our melee as useless in a party is enough of an indication of where we stand. Otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

People are dumb. Which makes it tempting to say anyone against melee is dumb, except it isn't a full truth. It is however extreme stupidity to say "Extra 400 damage for free is bad for the party" when talking about bringing someone who doesn't do 2k damage to the mob. Melee is only bad if it means you are skipping something vital. Like a RDM giving completely up on Haste spells to melee.

The arguments that someone does only a little damage is just so silly when in the end it is ADDITIONAL damage. Might as well say that BRDs are pointless, because they don't do any damage, they only add a small amount of damage to each party member.

[Leonlionheart]

Does anyone else find it rather ironic and insulting that SE has such a huge boner for DRK casting magic, and they haven't even pulled down the zipper on their pants so to speak:

And given us magic attack bonus I?

Just sayin'.

After discussing it so much...

I have no idea what SE could possibly want for DRK.

"Here guys have a FREAKING AWESOME GREATSWORD WITH A WS WORTH USING EVEN THOUGH IT DON'T CRIT"

"Here guys, have a 3minute long, 25% JOB ABILITY haste ability, so you can get TP super fast."

"Guys we think it's about time you stopped WSing all together. Auto-Attacks is where DRK is at."

[Leonlionheart]

That is because they still haven't understood why DRKs are so dumb that they do not sub BLM for it.

what the...

I...

I don't know if I...

Can handle how stupid this comment is.

As for SMN melee, the problems are:

TP Feed to the NM (YES THIS IS A PROBLEM. THIS IS WHY MNK+WHM DUO IS EASIER THAN ALL OF YOU RTARDS ATTACKING THE MOB.)
SMN Survivability
SMN not providing the support that it should.

[Duelle]

Melee is only bad if it means you are skipping something vital. Like a RDM giving completely up on Haste spells to melee.This is assuming the class has to do the same things it does in the back row while front-lining. I've already covered that it's not possible and takes away from the point of being in the front.

what the...
I...
I don't know if I...
Can handle how stupid this comment is.I'm guessing you're not getting the vibe of Mala's comment being his way of making fun of how the developers think, right? Sad as it may be, if someone came up and told me this is the devs' counter argument to the DRKs complaining about their part of the manifesto, I would feel inclined to believe them.

[Sparthos]

People are dumb. Which makes it tempting to say anyone against melee is dumb, except it isn't a full truth. It is however extreme stupidity to say "Extra 400 damage for free is bad for the party" when talking about bringing someone who doesn't do 2k damage to the mob. Melee is only bad if it means you are skipping something vital. Like a RDM giving completely up on Haste spells to melee.

The arguments that someone does only a little damage is just so silly when in the end it is ADDITIONAL damage. Might as well say that BRDs are pointless, because they don't do any damage, they only add a small amount of damage to each party member.

/facepalm

By meleeing, you're putting yourself in danger of being killed or taking damage which requires the healer to split up resources further. Battles where SMN shine also happen to be battles where getting close means being subject to AOE damage.

You can melee trash mobs if you want in Abyssea and im pretty fond of Garland of Bliss (sooooooo sparkly) myself but really it comes down to:

"Is my crap damage worth hitting this mob?"

For SMN, the answer is usually no.

Dont even bring up BRD. Elegy is one of the most potent debuffs in the game and Marches/Carols/Threnodies/Ballads are worth more than any amount of crappy dagger melee.

I have a melee set for BRD but it surely won't be used outside Abyssea because with 3 songs to keep perpetually up, I just don't have the time.

[Korpg]

For SMN, the answer is always no.


Fixed that for you.

I mean, given the choice between a melee SMN and...well, anything else. Which would you rather have?

[Leonlionheart]

Fixed that for you.

I mean, given the choice between a melee SMN and...well, anything else. Which would you rather have?

SMN haste mule, can hastega his party and just rotate haste on everyone else in the alliance. Would probably prove to be more useful than anything and mp conservative if the SMN was competent enough to do it.

[Korpg]

SMN haste mule, can hastega his party and just rotate haste on everyone else in the alliance. Would probably prove to be more useful than anything and mp conservative if the SMN was competent enough to do it.

Yeah, but that mule isn't meleeing, are they?

That is the point in the argument. SMN isn't there as a melee, but as a buffer. If the SMN was there as a melee, they can be replaced by another job very easy.

[Leonlionheart]

That's what I'm saying, I can't see myself inviting a SMN melee to anything.

[Supersun]

I think you are missing his point.

You aren't inviting a summoner to melee. You are inviting him to do summoner things.
His meleeing simply supplies him with a virtually endless MP supply.

The only issue is that White Mage has been able to this since Mystic Boon and the same reason they aren't in the front wacking things for unlimited MP are the same reasons a Summoner shouldn't be...well maybe minus the enmity issues.

[Razushu]

I think you are missing his point.

You aren't inviting a summoner to melee. You are inviting him to do summoner things.
His meleeing simply supplies him with a virtually endless MP supply.

The only issue is that White Mage has been able to this since Mystic Boon and the same reason they aren't in the front wacking things for unlimited MP are the same reasons a Summoner shouldn't be...well maybe minus the enmity issues.

A well geared SMN doesn't need to melee to keep MP up indefinitely either.

[Korpg]

A well geared SMN doesn't need to melee to keep MP up indefinitely either.

Exactly white space

[Cream_Soda]

I'd have to say I like your new sig much better than the previous, Korpg

[Korpg]

Old sig was made 2 years ago, so yeah, it was a little dated lol

[Malamasala]

A well geared SMN doesn't need to melee to keep MP up indefinitely either.

On the other hand, a well geared SMN doesn't have to stand in the back either. The whole argument of "doesn't have to" is pretty meaningless when it is something you want to do anyway.

That is like saying "You don't have to win the lottery"... but you wouldn't mind it, would you?

[Razushu]

On the other hand, a well geared SMN doesn't have to stand in the back either. The whole argument of "doesn't have to" is pretty meaningless when it is something you want to do anyway.

That is like saying "You don't have to win the lottery"... but you wouldn't mind it, would you?

I wasn't saying never melee. I was responding to a post that meleeing will give you unlimited MP. Which is like saying "Hey let's go out for steak", while you're eating steak.

[hiko]

That is because they still haven't understood why DRKs are so dumb that they do not sub BLM for it.

sub rdm! . .

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

The fact that the collective (or as you call it, "people") decreed our melee as useless in a party is enough of an indication of where we stand. Otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

I sort of agree, except instead of "decreed", I would say "realized". It was SE who designed the game mechanics that make RDM melee weak and often counterproductive (starting with no A weapons, and B only in weak weapons, but going on with base stats weighted toward casting, no melee-supporting JAs or traits until Composure, and of course the fact that mobs gain full TP from weak attacks).


#2 I agree with as well, but what I would love is something to facilitate off-healing in emergencies. Again, nothing exists for RDM in that regard. At least nothing built into the class to tell the player "this is what you do when you want to heal someone in an emergency".

Um... cast cure spells? What are you looking for, a heal with the casting time of Stun? (Judging from the end of your post, maybe...)


#3 I'll concede on if and only if Refresh is changed to a long duration spell (I'm talking 10 minutes baseline) when the Red Mage is in melee.

It's already 7:30 with Composure, whether you're in melee or not. Of course if you want to have powerful buffs for other party members *and* powerful melee without them interfering with each other... then why would people invite the powerful melee that don't also have powerful buffs? (Why does COR do less damage than RNG? Because it also does other things.)


An alternative would be for Refresh to proc on the party when the RDM uses a weapon skill, with the effect being maintained by the RDM hitting the target - only applicable while in the front lines, of course. Cycle spells have no place in the front lines.

And jobs based on those spells...? You keep getting 99% of the way to the conclusion that RDM was never designed to be a frontline job at higher levels on non-trivial content, but refusing to reach that conclusion.


To continue, I'm of the mind enfeebling in particular could be tied into melee in a way unique to RDM (using RDM's own enfeebling magic in a different way). Elemental magic could be tied to RDM melee as well to give some use to those spells available to us. That way you reap certain benefits from a front line RDM and get different benefits from a back line RDM. A very rough idea, though I do have my proposed redesign sitting around here somewhere...

It seems to me that it would be not so much a *re*design as a design for a new job. Which might be interesting, and I might even want to level it, but I'd like to keep my RDM too (and so would a large number of other RDMs, probably the majority). It's just not reasonable to expect one job to be two jobs to any more of an extent than RDM already is. This isn't a Hasso vs. Seigan type of difference. It's a RDM vs. DRK type of difference. (In fact, probably a lot of your ideas would make great additions to DRK; they're heavily focused on 2h weapons and have only one enspell, but other than that, they'd be a better foundation for melee-enfeeblers than RDM would).


There once was a class that happened to be in the exact same pickle RDM has been in for years. Toward whom people reacted the exact same way whenever melee was brought up. With very similar design (sword & magic hybrid, limited healing capability, buffs, utility right out of the box, even some real defensive moves), and the same shortcomings (low damage compared to the "real" front-liners, ease in being pigeonholed to buffbot and healer, little in-game support for a melee-oriented playstyle). Whose melee camp was called selfish for not wanting to sit pretty and let the "real heroes" stand in the front lines while they wore dresses and hung back with the priests. Whose melee camp also went to great lengths to argue for their style of play, and faced major resistance not only from players of other classes, but also players within their own class. Sound familiar?

Not terribly, but I think I know where you're going with this. Except that if you're talking about what I think you're talking about, they were never designed to *also* have good crowd control, decent nuking, the only true snare in the game, the best anticaster abilities in the game, enfeebles that can seriously reduce a mob's DPS... you're leaving out half of RDM's toolbox for the simple reason that the class I think you're talking about never had those abilities (and still doesn't, IIRC). Which negates your point about "very similar design".


Anyway, the melee buffs came and went. And you know what happened? It was suddenly okay for them to melee in groups. If you chose to front line and were geared for it, you were more than welcome to swing your weapon; hell, you didn't have to wear best-in-slot gear or wielding legendaries for people to accept you melee'ing things. The guys that liked healing and buffing got to continue doing so, while the melee camp happily did what they had wanted to do all along. It was a win for everyone.

The terminology suggests that you're talking about WoW, most likely paladin. But WoW specs (especially post-Cata) are much more different from each other than subjob choices. They're practically different jobs with dramatically different playstyles, abilities, gear choices, etc. (especially specs that have different roles). There are a few abilities in common, half of which aren't even used after low levels because they're superseded by spec-specific (or spec-enhanced) abilities. FF is never going to have a job that's three or four jobs in one; on the other hand I doubt WoW will ever have 20 classes. In practically everything except having to level them separately, it would be more appropriate to compare FFXI jobs to WoW *specs* rather than classes, especially for classes whose specs have radically divergent playstyles like Paladin and Druid (even druid's 2 DPS specs are as different from each other as completely different jobs).

Oh, and holy paladins (the ones that people didn't want meleeing) still don't deal good melee DPS. They're primarily... healers (albeit frontline ones). If you want strong melee damage you have to spec retribution, at which point you can't heal worth crap (or fill any role other than DPS, which WoW, like this game, has a massive excess of).

There was also a lot of encounter redesign involved in the rebirth of holy paladin melee, wasn't there? Specifically, the near-total elimination of PBAOEs from Wrath and Cata boss fights, replacing them with damage to random targets and "don't stand in the fire" mechanics? FFXI still has plenty of PBAOEs and center-on-tank AOEs (both damaging and enfeebling), not to mention the TP mechanic, to make the bar for "it's more useful for you to melee than to stay away" a lot higher. This is already a big problem for the job that's *designed* to be a frontline healer and support (DNC). It would be worse for melee RDM, which is why people tell RDM not to melee in those fights.

If you could somehow translate WoW holy paladins into FFXI they'd probably be asked to stay the heck away from the caturae, ironclads, wyrms, chariots, etc... because their meager melee output doesn't make up for the disadvantages (in FFXI) of having unnecessarily many people close to/feeding TP to a boss. Conversely, if RDMs could somehow be translated into post-Cata WoW and had a melee tree, it would be about as effective at healing, enfeebling, or CC as your average DPS feral or enhancement shaman.

[Duelle]

Um... cast cure spells? What are you looking for, a heal with the casting time of Stun? (Judging from the end of your post, maybe...)Ah, you're familiar with what I speak of. Yes, I'd love to have something like the original Art of War mechanic for RDM. In all honesty, though, I don't think FFXI's game engine would support it without an on-demand JA, which would kind of defeat the whole purpose of the mechanic.

It's already 7:30 with Composure, whether you're in melee or not. Of course if you want to have powerful buffs for other party members *and* powerful melee without them interfering with each other... then why would people invite the powerful melee that don't also have powerful buffs? (Why does COR do less damage than RNG? Because it also does other things.)COR has the benefit of being in ranged. The only thing holding it back are the people who still play it as COR/WHM spamming only quickdraw and rolls. Leaden Salute and the hexaguns are actually quite nice.

By the way, Refresh = powerful buffs? That's a laugh.

And jobs based on those spells...? You keep getting 99% of the way to the conclusion that RDM was never designed to be a frontline job at higher levels on non-trivial content, but refusing to reach that conclusion.Bad design is bad design. And the basis for me even saying any of this is that as long as Red Mage's archetype remains sword&magic hybrid, I'll still treat it as a class that is simply lacking what it needs to actually live up to what its archetype was created for. Besides, basing jobs on those two spells is asking for trouble.

It seems to me that it would be not so much a *re*design as a design for a new job. Which might be interesting, and I might even want to level it, but I'd like to keep my RDM too (and so would a large number of other RDMs, probably the majority).You assume I wouldn't keep the current RDM playstyle largely if not entirely intact. I don't limit myself to "one role per class" unlike others around here. I never bothered to flesh it out, but that's because no one wants to discuss it with me. >.>;

Not terribly, but I think I know where you're going with this. Except that if you're talking about what I think you're talking about, they were never designed to *also* have good crowd control, decent nuking, the only true snare in the game, the best anticaster abilities in the game, enfeebles that can seriously reduce a mob's DPS... you're leaving out half of RDM's toolbox for the simple reason that the class I think you're talking about never had those abilities (and still doesn't, IIRC). Which negates your point about "very similar design".If you meant Bind and Gravity, sure, I can concede on those. Repentance is actually pretty damn good crowd control since that was changed into an incapacitate from a stun that only worked on undead. "Anticaster" is pretty much limited to silence, not to mention our soulmate class has to deal with classes that can instantly cast spells, which don't really exist in this game. As far as the enfeebles part, both played a similar role, just in different ways. Paralyze doesn't exist in that other game, and Slow was given to the warriors, so we had to settle for extra damage taken and +haste to the party/raid and +damage.

But WoW specs (especially post-Cata) are much more different from each other than subjob choices. They're practically different jobs with dramatically different playstyles, abilities, gear choices, etc. (especially specs that have different roles). There are a few abilities in common, half of which aren't even used after low levels because they're superseded by spec-specific (or spec-enhanced) abilities.You err here. Hybrids in WoW have a baseline common factor. This is the case for druids, shaman and paladins. It's just much more pronounced for pallies because shaman specs go all over the place and druids have a shape-shifting mechanic to act as a limiting factor. Pallies, on the other hand, and just like RDM, have access to everything out of the box regardless of spec (which was largely the reason why ret was purposely kept gimp due to the "your damage is low because of your utility" mantra). You don't have forms to separate them or anything else. And believe me, I was there during the debates where some of us rets were saying "just do what you did with priests and give us a melee form".
FF is never going to have a job that's three or four jobs in one; on the other hand I doubt WoW will ever have 20 classes.That's not what I'm asking for. What I'm asking for is for the hybrid classes (not just RDM) to have their different roles be actually relevant in group content. WoW is the most recent example I've seen of this, which is why I quote it so much. I was also part of the ret (AKA melee) paladin movement that wanted to see our spec become a real contender for front-lining instead of the gimp and useless joke it was in Vanilla and a large part of The Burning Crusade (very much like melee RDM currently is in this game). So yeah, I'm familiar with all the nay-sayer excuses and failed arguments, and know they're full of s**t because I've seen it turn out differently and for the better of the class.

Oh, and holy paladins (the ones that people didn't want meleeing) still don't deal good melee DPS. They're primarily... healers (albeit frontline ones).Holy paladins healing is fine. They're the healer spec and I'd expect them to do as such unless they want to do something crazy like a shockadin spec (not that it's possible at all post-Cata). And they don't really front line to heal. They stay in the back, since even with the new Holy Power mechanic, they can just use Holy Shock to build up their HoPo charges.

If you want strong melee damage you have to spec retribution, at which point you can't heal worth crapIf I were to take anything from any era of WoW, I'd focus more on WotLK Ret, where you could use your Art of War procs to heal and while not getting the massive heals from a real healer, where nice in a pinch without gobbling up your entire mana bar. I've saved my healers from near wipes several times while raiding, which is why I grew to like that mechanic so much.

Specifically, the near-total elimination of PBAOEs from Wrath and Cata boss fights, replacing them with damage to random targets and "don't stand in the fire" mechanics?Not really. You still had raid damage to take into account as a whole (Ulduar is a good example of this). No, you didn't have encounters with massive positioning requirements (like Brutallus in sunwell plateau), but not all bosses are like Noth the plaguebringer or Patchwerk, either. >.>;

FFXI still has plenty of PBAOEs and center-on-tank AOEs (both damaging and enfeebling), not to mention the TP mechanic, to make the bar for "it's more useful for you to melee than to stay away" a lot higher. This is already a big problem for the job that's *designed* to be a frontline healer and support (DNC). It would be worse for melee RDM, which is why people tell RDM not to melee in those fights.Encounter and class design are two different things. What I can say however is that yes, the devs were short-sighted or are very limited by XI's game engine to create challenging content. I don't know about you, but I got the feeling they were scraping the bottom of the barrel when I saw all those enfeeble auras on several of the abyssea NMs. It's like fighting maiden of virtue except without the built-in ways to get your damage in between aura "ticks". Which yes, makes encounters very melee unfriendly. That's a discussion for another topic, though, because I'm sure the WARs and SAMs and DRGs and DRKs of the game would like to be more than just cheerleaders or be told to change to their mage jobs so often when it comes to this stuff.

As for your last paragraph, I use ret paladins as my point of comparison because, as I mentioned earlier, Paladins have access to all their utility out of the box regardless of spec. The gear and the spec is what pushes them to be accepted melee front-liners should they choose to (emphasis on choose). RDM has their utility right out of the box, but without the benefits of mechanics and DPS to help them justify their being in the front lines. A RDM with feral druid limitations would mean it can only melee and go through a convoluted process to get one spell off. A RDM with enh. shaman limitations...well, lets just say I don't wish a playstyle entirely centered on objects that need to be placed on the ground every time you move on anyone.

[Seha]

hexaguns are actually quite niceUgh...

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[Malamasala]

I wasn't saying never melee. I was responding to a post that meleeing will give you unlimited MP. Which is like saying "Hey let's go out for steak", while you're eating steak.

If I'm hungry, I'd go for two steaks!

[Korpg]

I think you are being greedy here.

What is the point in meleeing for MP when you don't have any MP issues as is?

[Malamasala]

I think you are being greedy here.

What is the point in meleeing for MP when you don't have any MP issues as is?

That is probably when it becomes meleeing for fun. I am allowed to have fun, right? Or are we having fun issues?

[Razushu]

If I'm hungry, I'd go for two steaks!

Or one giant steak(my preferred choice).XD

[Razushu]

That is probably when it becomes meleeing for fun. I am allowed to have fun, right? Or are we having fun issues?

Enjoyment lags the server,didn't you know. lol

[Korpg]

That is probably when it becomes meleeing for fun. I am allowed to have fun, right? Or are we having fun issues?

You think whacking stuff with a stick is fun? Try WAR, you might actually like it.

[Dallas]

I wasn't saying never melee. I was responding to a post that meleeing will give you unlimited MP. Which is like saying "Hey let's go out for steak", while you're eating steak.

Translation = "Hey, I have enough MP already to handle my BP: Rage. Since I'm already doing damage, I don't need to Assault or Melee! Cure 4? Nah, SMN/RDM has Cure 3! I'm already a healer!"

Enjoy your freezer burned pot roast, steak is steak!

[Korpg]

Translation = "Hey, I have enough MP already to handle my BP: Rage. Since I'm already doing damage, I don't need to Assault or Melee! Cure 4? Nah, SMN/RDM has Cure 3! I'm already a healer!"

Enjoy your freezer burned pot roast, steak is steak!

Now you are just gasping for air.

Is MP really your only argument?

[Razushu]

Translation = "Hey, I have enough MP already to handle my BP: Rage. Since I'm already doing damage, I don't need to Assault or Melee! Cure 4? Nah, SMN/RDM has Cure 3! I'm already a healer!"

Enjoy your freezer burned pot roast, steak is steak!

I use /WHM if I'm going to be curing alot(also at 99 cap /RDM will give Cure IV). I have enough MP to handle everything rages, wards, /spells. It's better to be giving out Cure IVs than crying non-stop for R3.

[Korpg]

I use /WHM if I'm going to be curing alot(also at 99 cap /RDM will give Cure IV). I have enough MP to handle everything rages, wards, /spells. It's better to be giving out Cure IVs than crying non-stop for R3.

you got to give him the benefit of the doubt. He should at least have RR for the first death.

[Razushu]

you got to give him the benefit of the doubt. He should at least have RR for the first death.

He's /SAM probably so no benefit for him.

[Korpg]

He's /SAM probably so no benefit for him.

But didn't you know, he is /SAM and still pass out -nas and Cure Vs and everything. He discovered that.

[Razushu]

But didn't you know, he is /SAM and still pass out -nas and Cure Vs and everything. He discovered that.

I heard he can use call beast, charm, maiden's virelai, activate, call wyvern and deus ex automata all at the same time too.

[Dallas]

I use /WHM if I'm going to be curing alot(also at 99 cap /RDM will give Cure IV). I have enough MP to handle everything rages, wards, /spells. It's better to be giving out Cure IVs than crying non-stop for R3.

SMN/WHM spamming Cures, double pacts, and bragging about unlimited MP? Yeah, it's called Minikin Monstrosity. I'm proud of you.

[Leonlionheart]

SMN/WHM spamming Cures, double pacts, and bragging about unlimited MP? Yeah, it's called Minikin Monstrosity. I'm proud of you.

I'm sure you yourself melee on a LOT of outside content.

Because you know, Voidwatch NMs never AoE

[Dallas]

Voidwatch is the only thing outside of Abyssea. I think that it is an established fact that the awful drops in Voidwatch are the only thing anyone wants.

[Leonlionheart]

Voidwatch is the only thing outside of Abyssea. I think that it is an established fact that the awful drops in Voidwatch are the only thing anyone wants.

Then invalid point is invalid.

SMN/Mage will use what atma benefit them most, as
SMN/DD will use whatever atma benefit all two of you the most.

[Dallas]

I was hoping the sarcasm meter would be screaming at you. All the old bosses seem to be perfectly safe to zerg nowadays.

[Leonlionheart]

I was hoping the sarcasm meter would be screaming at you. All the old bosses seem to be perfectly safe to zerg nowadays.

I highly doubt your accuracy is as good as you think on HNM.

Even more unlikely is the fact that your pDIF is worth a damn either.

Those, along with lolhaste (22~23%), are kind of what make melee SMN useless in such situations.

[Dallas]

The other thread died without that claim ever being substantiated for Kirin. Let's not feign any interest this time.

[Razushu]

SMN/WHM spamming Cures, double pacts, and bragging about unlimited MP? Yeah, it's called Minikin Monstrosity. I'm proud of you.

That's in Dynamis and other areas outside Abyssea, you're bragging about meleeing for unlimited MP on a job no one in their right mind would let near a mob higher than exp level.

[Korpg]

I was hoping the sarcasm meter would be screaming at you. All the old bosses seem to be perfectly safe to zerg nowadays.

Who in their right mind would invite a SMN over a WAR, DRK, DRG, PUP, SAM, MNK, THF, COR, RNG, DNC, or NIN for a zerg?

Heck, even a melee BRD with dagger(s) would do more damage than you.

[Malamasala]

Who in their right mind would invite a SMN over a WAR, DRK, DRG, PUP, SAM, MNK, THF, COR, RNG, DNC, or NIN for a zerg?

Heck, even a melee BRD with dagger(s) would do more damage than you.

I hate to ruin your picture of the world, but I've actually zerged on SMN once. Accuracy was no issue at all, so we could claim that you can't really complain on that. Damage though, was not really on WAR or SAM level.

And if you wonder how I managed to get into such a situation, well we were doing PW and to get all titles, I was allowed in, and we were low on SMNs so I stood for one of the Alexanders. Then I just meleed it after 2 houring to end the fight faster.

I probably out-DDed any BRDs, if I may say so myself. I don't think any BRDs engaged though. Too afraid to try something new even when they have nothing to lose.

[Leonlionheart]

I hate to ruin your picture of the world, but I've actually zerged on SMN once. Accuracy was no issue at all, so we could claim that you can't really complain on that. Damage though, was not really on WAR or SAM level.

And if you wonder how I managed to get into such a situation, well we were doing PW and to get all titles, I was allowed in, and we were low on SMNs so I stood for one of the Alexanders. Then I just meleed it after 2 houring to end the fight faster.

I probably out-DDed any BRDs, if I may say so myself. I don't think any BRDs engaged though. Too afraid to try something new even when they have nothing to lose.

When there is no downside... that's the appropriate situation. Specially when your SMN doesn't NEED to be doing something else.

Although, I doubt your accuracy was as good as you say it is on PW, considering SMN gets, at most, like +34 accuracy. With a B skill, that's VERY little. You might not notice, but your accuracy was probably around 85~90% instead of 95%.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Of course you can outDD someone who isn't, dealing damage... You might as well brag you won the special Olympics.

[Malamasala]

Although, I doubt your accuracy was as good as you say it is on PW, considering SMN gets, at most, like +34 accuracy. With a B skill, that's VERY little. You might not notice, but your accuracy was probably around 85~90% instead of 95%.

I'm pretty sure I've already listed in the Summoner forums that getting 63 accuracy is possible. And that is still not the cap, since I haven't scavenged all accuracy options I have. That said, I do not think I utilized it all in that fight, so 34 could be a good guess on what I was wearing at the moment.

[Leonlionheart]

I'm pretty sure I've already listed in the Summoner forums that getting 63 accuracy is possible. And that is still not the cap, since I haven't scavenged all accuracy options I have. That said, I do not think I utilized it all in that fight, so 34 could be a good guess on what I was wearing at the moment.

While capping haste in gear, it's unlikely*

[Korpg]

Only way to cap accuracy while wearing haste gear would be...Nirvana. Which is probably the only staff worth meleeing with because of the aftermaths.

[Bayohne]

Seems like other jobs had threads dedicated specifically to them, but I couldn't find one for Samurai, so I'll put this here... First off, thanks for all the opinions thus far, and we wanted to let you know that we passed them to the supervisor in charge of the upcoming changes and had him take a look.

Please understand that we cannot answer all of your questions in one post and some answers may be vague, because this is all content that is still under development.

Please bear with us as we will continue posting about this and other jobs!


I want an ability that will reduce the TP cost for the next WS to 0.
That's an interesting idea!
However, this may be a little too powerful, so I'll look into it with balance in mind.


I want an ability like “Tactician’s Roll” that provides TP regain to party members.
This ability may be possible if it consumes your TP like “Shikikoyo” does. I will look into this.


I would like the damage for auto-attack or weapon skills in general increased.
Since we are working towards “providing balanced damage while taking advantage of the skills and the amount of WSs,” this will be difficult to implement. I will look into this carefully, because increasing damage even in the slightest way may greatly increase the total output that’s possible.


I would like an ability that automatically triggers stun when the enemy uses an ability or WS.
We are not looking into an ability that could automatically trigger stun, because this will make the skill level of the player obsolete.


I would like the requirements removed for the "ability that increases accuracy and damage of weapon skills” and the “ability that augments the next weapon skill used with a TP bonus” so that they can be used at any time.
The "ability that increases accuracy and damage of weapon skills” is just an example, so it is possible that the requirements will be altered before being finalized.

As long as the effects for the “ability that augments the next weapon skill used with a TP bonus” are active, you can use a WS at any time to receive the TP bonus.


I don’t want the two example abilities in the manifesto to share the same recast timer with existing abilities.
Don’t worry, they will have separate recast timers.


I would like both of the example abilities in the manifesto to be job traits.
Currently, we are working on implementing these as abilities.


I would like the damage the enemy inflicts to be reduced drastically, or be invulnerable to status effects while the effects of the "ability that increases accuracy and damage of weapon skills” are active.
I really like the idea of the damage the enemy inflicts being reduced if you complete a weapon skill during the enemy’s ability/weapon skill. However, if you are invulnerable to damage and status effects, you will be practically invincible, so something like this will be very difficult to implement.

[Raksha]

Seems like other jobs had threads dedicated specifically to them, but I couldn't find one for Samurai, so I'll put this here... First off, thanks for all the opinions thus far, and we wanted to let you know that we passed them to the supervisor in charge of the upcoming changes and had him take a look.

Please understand that we cannot answer all of your questions in one post and some answers may be vague, because this is all content that is still under development.

Please bear with us as we will continue posting about this and other jobs!


That's an interesting idea!
However, this may be a little too powerful, so I'll look into it with balance in mind.


This ability may be possible if it consumes your TP like “Shikikoyo” does. I will look into this.


Since we are working towards “providing balanced damage while taking advantage of the skills and the amount of WSs,” this will be difficult to implement. I will look into this carefully, because increasing damage even in the slightest way may greatly increase the total output that’s possible.


We are not looking into an ability that could automatically trigger stun, because this will make the skill level of the player obsolete.


The "ability that increases accuracy and damage of weapon skills” is just an example, so it is possible that the requirements will be altered before being finalized.

As long as the effects for the “ability that augments the next weapon skill used with a TP bonus” are active, you can use a WS at any time to receive the TP bonus.


Don’t worry, they will have separate recast timers.


Currently, we are working on implementing these as abilities.


I really like the idea of the damage the enemy inflicts being reduced if you complete a weapon skill during the enemy’s ability/weapon skill. However, if you are invulnerable to damage and status effects, you will be practically invincible, so something like this will be very difficult to implement.

Are all of these JP questions? Cause they sound like pretty terrible ideas.

"I want to be invincible while I'm WSing?" Seriously?

[Seha]

*yawns* nothing interesting there.

[Kojo]

How about another Melee and Ranged WS for automatons somewhere between 95-99. Also, not sure if any other PUPs have this problem, but Valoredge's dmg output seems kinda lacking.

[Leonlionheart]

Thanks for the information Bayohne, but I only have one gripe.

Samurai. Weapon skill. Accuracy.

It's like, already 99%.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Actually to "Where" the questions were coming from, go check out your local broken-job-r-us forum (Samurai forum) Some of their requests (like the TP bonus trait*) make me wonder if they even want to consider playing with other people or if they really think they can be like the Samurais in various anime and 1hit KO everything in one fell swoop. :x


*If Samurai gets this I will be severely disappointed, if Store TP were not enough? Currently they can make a 4 hit build, can you imagine a 4hit build hasted with a TP bonus of +100 (as I am sure if SE gives it to SAM it will be tiered and the final tier will be 100, since they like to throw out all reason on this job).

Having said this, don't get my message wrong, dear Samurais of Vana'diel, I like the initial IDEA of the job, but it seems like Square-Enix themselves have fallen from what their original plans for the job were going to be: A job that can build TP quickly and share said TP to work as a team to create powerful skillchains. Now it seems to has skewed into: A job that can build TP quickly and can do so in a many wherein it needs not share said TP, instead can benefit more from just solo-skill-chaining effortlessly and almost continuously.

It's funny to me, that instead of beefing up DRK and DRG to a better level, they beef up SAM; and instead of making SAM better in terms of helping the party (buffing up other players SCs/WSs/MBs and not themselves), they just continue to blindly throw abilities at it. DRK and DRG don't need to have any more party aspects to them, they need to be stronger, and SAM needs more PARTY HELPING (not self helping) abilities.

[Seha]

I think samurai should have shikai and bankai.
Customized also, obviously.

[Draylo]

Wow those people who asked those questions must be terrible players. If you want a ability that automatically stuns something so you don't have to lift your fat finger to actually PLAY, go get a stun bot.

[Feliciaa]

Sam can solo sc and share tp with others. It's a job that greatly relies on ws to provide a majority of its damage. So buffing its main source of damage seems to be the right way to go.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Sam can solo sc OR share tp with others you mean. The only time I see SAM sharing TP is when a group it waiting to do something, never in the midst of a fight. And I've played with some really good SAMs but they always just say its better for them to just solo the sc as they can Light > Light > Light > Light all day and deal more damage then having to take away the time to split their TP with someone else.

[Leonlionheart]

Sam can solo sc OR share tp with others you mean. The only time I see SAM sharing TP is when a group it waiting to do something, never in the midst of a fight. And I've played with some really good SAMs but they always just say its better for them to just solo the sc as they can Light > Light > Light > Light all day and deal more damage then having to take away the time to split their TP with someone else.

If Shikkikyo was a 15 second timer, I can't imagine a better use than to give that TP to a WAR.

[OMEGA_HACK]

huh? unless your WAR is dealing 5-8k a WS* then I am sure the SAMs will keep their TP and SC their heads off

*Outside Abyssea, please don't give me abyssea numbers as 91-99 content is going to be pulling away from those areas.

[Bayohne]

As I said above, thanks for all the opinions thus far! We again spoke with the supervisor in charge of the upcoming changes and had him take a look. Once again, please understand that we cannot answer all of your questions in a single post, and some answers may be vague, because this is all content that is still under development.

Scholar has a lot of job abilities, so we will have to provide multiple responses. The current plan is to post responses about stratagems tomorrow.

Job Abilities

I would like the effects of “Light Arts/Dark Arts” to increase proportionately to your level.
We plan on making this adjustment. We would like players that play scholar as their main job to receive more benefits than those utilizing it as a support job.


I want to be able to look up the enemy’s stats, weaknesses and amount of TP it has using "Libra."
We are working on this, but we are unsure whether we will change the effects of "Libra," or use a different method. It is possible that we will use an ability other than "Libra."


I am very worried that with the upcoming changes scholar’s spells cannot be landed easily when fighting against HNMs.
We don’t have plans on making it so that it will be impossible to land spells. However, rather than adjusting the rate that spells are resisted, the occurrence of enfeebling effects and the duration of the effects will fluctuate.


For Storm-related spells, I would like additional effects related to element to be added in addition to obtaining weather effects.
We will look into adding this as an additional effect for “Stormsurge” when we rework merit points.


What new spells are you thinking about adding for Tabula Rasa?
We got some data about the planned spells!

Brave
Target: Single (Can be made AoE through the use of stratagems)
Effect: Regen + Regain + Haste (Values/duration are under development)
Usage Level: 5~ (Under the effects of Tabula Rasa only)
Skill Type: Enhancing Magic

Merton
Target: Single (Can be made AoE through the use of stratagems)
Effect: Damage + Damage over Time (DoT effect depends on the initial damage)
Usage Level: 5~ (Under the effects of Tabula Rasa only)
Skill Type: Dark Magic

[Airget]

"I want an ability that will reduce the TP cost for the next WS to 0."

For that I"m thinking perhaps an ability called maybe "Adrenaline"

Adrenaline Recast 10 mins, duration 1 min.

"Next WS used cost 0 TP however ACC/ATT is severely reduced as is the MB potency"

Basically I think the idea behind the WS should be an option to close or open or create a 3+ person SC. I'd much rather see an ability like that implemented as a means of enhancing SC chances rather then an option to deal more damage lol.

---------
I gotta say it's a pity if you plan on gimping the use of dark/light arts, it's actually pretty cool to be able to sub it on a melee job and be useful with sleeping for the most part. I mean is there really a reason to gimp it when the job itself doesn't have any form of enfeebling which I saw as a balance as to why you allows said magic skills to be boosted as they were when used.

just imo but I always saw /sch as a pretty open-ended sub that could be used by any job and prove to be useful in certain lowman situations. It's just kind of odd why people would actually have a problem with that, I wonder why anyone would even suggest that it just seem pretty dumb to request lol. Though if it's not related to the magic skill boost then that's cool however if it is, then perhaps you are planning to give SCH sub subbable enfeebles?

[OMEGA_HACK]

Don't forget Faith!

Refresh + MaB + Cure Potency (or something) lol

It would be silly to have one but not the other D:>

[Leonlionheart]

Ok, the SCH update is freaking amazing.

BRD, meet SCH, your new zerg party rotation buddy.

[Kojo]

Anything planned for PUP?

[Seha]

Read the thread dedicated to it. They said lots of stuff there.

[Gokku]

no posts for monk or war yet >.<

[Kojo]

Read the thread dedicated to it. They said lots of stuff there.

Couldn't find it.

[Seha]

Couldn't find it.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/forum.php
Dev tracker.

[Leonlionheart]

no posts for monk or war yet >.<

At the point WAR and MNK are now, if they left them at 90 and gave everyone else 95, they would still be better.

[Patrik]

i realize that everyone will want info for every job. but it would be nice to hear something of rdm... for once x.x. i only feel i should say this, because of all the info we will get, rdm is the one i doubt we will hear anything from. Its pretty much always been that way. So i say this now, since rdm is no longer a god among jobs, can we PLEASE get some info from devs about what will be done? I'm aware that the community reps read all this and report it all, so all i can ask is that you try to stress the desire for info on rdm.

The job's usefulness has dwindled more and more since level cap raises, not being the only job that can solo everything is fine. But i just don't wanna ask for a pt, tell them I'm rdm and hear "um... sorry, whm only please." At the very least i would hope we get Cure V when 95 cap is added, cure IV is damn near useless now... Though if we get new and actually useful enfeebling spells, that'd be great, but don't kill our ability to be a "jack of all trades" that was what i loved about rdm.

[Gokku]

At the point WAR and MNK are now, if they left them at 90 and gave everyone else 95, they would still be better.
i just wanna make sure they arent fucking with monk or giving us another useless JA *footworks* again.

[Draylo]

Cure IV is only useless in certain end game abyssea fights. Otherwise it is still efficient. My rdm can get around 40%+ cure potency and that is 550+ cure4's. Two of those is enough to cap most DD HP from a ws or so. There is only a 4 second recast time or so as well. WHM should be the premier healer anyway.

[Yugl]

I'm not sure the 2hr revamp is that promising.

During a zerg, 2hr BRD + Haste is capped magic haste. Prior to that, you will prefer the BRD over a SCH for NQ marches. Prior to that, you will prefer a WHM for superior healing, but even if SCH is healing, normal haste will cap you. Some instances where this will change the PT dynamics:

* SCH as main healer and BRDs do not have/use 2hr (Requires Haste + 2hr + Marches to hit the magic cap, which is not difficult since Marches + Haste nearly get you there)

The regain value will skew the benefit of haste in that a 100TP regain (Very unlikely) will undermine the impact of having haste. Conversely, high haste will undermine the regain if the value is "normal" (1 TP/tick).

[Leonlionheart]

I'm not sure the 2hr revamp is that promising.

During a zerg, 2hr BRD + Haste is capped magic haste. Prior to that, you will prefer the BRD over a SCH for NQ marches. Prior to that, you will prefer a WHM for superior healing, but even if SCH is healing, normal haste will cap you. Some instances where this will change the PT dynamics:

* SCH as main healer and BRDs do not have/use 2hr (Requires Haste + 2hr + Marches to hit the magic cap, which is not difficult since Marches + Haste nearly get you there)

The regain value will skew the benefit of haste in that a 100TP regain (Very unlikely) will undermine the impact of having haste. Conversely, high haste will undermine the regain if the value is "normal" (1 TP/tick).

If Bravery is over 15% haste, stacking with Haste and Marches, you can Minuet instead of march1 one of those songs.

It's a 2hour, we can assume the Regen is high enough to out perform Regen IV, and/or stacks with Regen IV. Regen IV can already be bumped up to 39HP/tick, which is significant outside Abyssea.

Regain spell+Regain earring would only need 3 ticks of regain to bump Ukon up a xhit assuming the common 6hit builds (which depends, however, on DA, TA, and Retaliation).

However, if it's potency is anything less than posted, it'll be useless.

[Tezz]

Brave
Target: Single (Can be made AoE through the use of stratagems)
Effect: Regen + Regain + Haste (Values/duration are under development)
Usage Level: 5~ (Under the effects of Tabula Rasa only)
Skill Type: Enhancing Magic
Interesting for the "Light" side of things. I'm not immediately displeased with this one.
I would hope that this Haste bypasses other forms and even allows beyond the cap, or make the regain actually worth a damn.



Merton
Target: Single (Can be made AoE through the use of stratagems)
Effect: Damage + Damage over Time (DoT effect depends on the initial damage)
Usage Level: 5~ (Under the effects of Tabula Rasa only)
Skill Type: Dark Magic
SE doesn't want us using Helices on enemies, and now they do? This one also just doesn't seem 2hr-worthy, imo. Feels like a quick slap on.

At best it would probably be initial damage comparable to T3~T4 range and a few ticks afterward or active while 2hr is still in effect. I know this isn't classified as Helix, but assuming 8-10~sec/tick = 5-7~ procs while 2hr active.
As long as NM's aren't resisting, it would be great for soloers or for quicker hate-free low man attempts. If good enough, it could also be a sort of mini-brew, but i doubt it.

Finally, it could be a great way to AoE groups of monsters in Abyssea. Relying on 2hr chest spam.

At worst, the initial damage is crap and the procs resisting too much. More monsters making the AoE less & less forcing this method useless.

[Raksha]

There is actually a SCH specific manifesto post. Wonder why they didn't post it there.

Can't say I'm overwhelmed with joy at this info, but I wasn't expecting much to begin with.

[Coldbrand]

Also please keep the regain an even number that works well with 6 5 4 hit builds so it's actually worth a damn for well geared players. You should also look into this adjustments for the COR roll.

[Bayohne]

There is actually a SCH specific manifesto post. Wonder why they didn't post it there.
D'oh! My bad, I searched and didn't find it. Sorry about that. I didn't want to hold onto the information longer than I already had after it was compiled. :( (I blame Camate, honestly.)

[Korpg]

I blame Camate, honestly.

Doesn't everyone?

[Leonlionheart]

D'oh! My bad, I searched and didn't find it. Sorry about that. I didn't want to hold onto the information longer than I already had after it was compiled. :( (I blame Camate, honestly.)

lol@Camate

[Coldbrand]

Hahaha, wow. Next we'll have a WAR thread with them asking for more. You'd think the people who got the best JAs coming their way alongside WARs would be happy. I mean, I play SAM and I realize the patch notes spell out loud and clear that it'll resume it's obnoxious status as the bandwagon top tier job again with its playerbase being rude pricks to everyone who isn't one.

[Frost]

Is it possible to maybe let Corsair have more Quickshot charges yet? Maybe an adjustment that we get 1 every 20 or so levels? I see you guys concentrating on the rolls a lot, and I like that, but even ONE more charge on Quickshot would improve the flow of the job for a lot of us.

Please & Thank You.

[Korpg]

Hahaha, wow. Next we'll have a WAR thread with them asking for more. You'd think the people who got the best JAs coming their way alongside WARs would be happy. I mean, I play SAM and I realize the patch notes spell out loud and clear that it'll resume it's obnoxious status as the bandwagon top tier job again with its playerbase being rude pricks to everyone who isn't one.

You shouldn't talk bad about DRKs like that!

Anyway, I don't see many WARs asking for multitude of more stuff, just adjustments to their current role.

[Coldbrand]

With the increase to 3 rolls CORs are probably gonna' need an extra QD to make up for the fact that they'll be spending their entire damn time keeping rolls up.

[Zeroe]

Will Dark Knights Be receiving one of these updates from the Dev team? I really hope so.

[Merton9999]

@SCH announcement

LOL@ Merton retaining its name from FFIII US. I was worried after I read the JP translation earlier that it would be translated as Meltdown, but I guess the dolls already have a move called that. Needless to say I'm geeked about the name!

Now all we need is for it to do 9999 damage to the mob and the party, but let the party absorb the damage with Voidstorm up!!!

Compared to other job adjustment announcements I'm pleased for now at the SCH ones. They were all positive answers at least. Only numbers will tell in the end of course.

I was also confused at the post being made here instead of the SCH board. It's currently the most active thread there :p

Anyway, any info on if the range of Libra will be adjusted? And of course most of us SCHs are still wondering about Modus Veritas. Bottom line though, as happy as I would be with any nuking improvements, like many people have said SCH needs a way to be an adequate healer again, and for its recently added unique spells to be of real value. Certainly a 2 hour Brave and a mob TP reduction spell (unless it's uber) won't be doing this.

I am very excited about extra bonuses for weather and for a Scan type ability!

On Brave, I suspect this will be a separate status (i.e. its own icon rather than adding Haste, Regain and Regen icons to the status bar), so I assume it will stack with the individual versions of all the buffs it provides. I agree if the Regain is high then the value of Haste will be minimized, but if the Brave Haste works like the Haste spell, it could also add some additional element of diminished recast at least?

Also, I expressed this concern on the SCH board but here it is again. If Brave and Merton are simply methods to address, through combination spells, the complaint that Tabula Rasa's duration currently suffers from JA spam, and if Brave buffs and Merton damage are consequently equivalent to their corresponding individual spells, that would be pretty disappointing.

Looking forward to the strategem announcements tomorrow!

[Frost]

With the increase to 3 rolls CORs are probably gonna' need an extra QD to make up for the fact that they'll be spending their entire damn time keeping rolls up.

Have you played the job? =P

Keeping rolls up is a non-issue in most cases, they last a while, and last even longer still with gear/merits. For the time you're not rolling, you can do a little debuff enhancing, and/or damage.

The Quickshots are a really nice bridge of actions between rolls, they help deal with downtime, and smooth out the pace of the job. Either you're taking Slow/Para to the next level, setting up for nukes to do more damage, or just adding a little damage yourself. Two shots is just too little though.

You'd think in the fifty levels from forty, when you get the ability, to ninety, where we're currently at; a Corsair would find a way to squeeze out another shot or two...

[Leonlionheart]

Hahaha, wow. Next we'll have a WAR thread with them asking for more. You'd think the people who got the best JAs coming their way alongside WARs would be happy. I mean, I play SAM and I realize the patch notes spell out loud and clear that it'll resume it's obnoxious status as the bandwagon top tier job again with its playerbase being rude pricks to everyone who isn't one.

Hard to beat WAR getting an auto-crit ability...

[Yugl]

If Bravery is over 15% haste, stacking with Haste and Marches, you can Minuet instead of march1 one of those songs.

It's a 2hour, we can assume the Regen is high enough to out perform Regen IV, and/or stacks with Regen IV. Regen IV can already be bumped up to 39HP/tick, which is significant outside Abyssea.

Regain spell+Regain earring would only need 3 ticks of regain to bump Ukon up a xhit assuming the common 6hit builds (which depends, however, on DA, TA, and Retaliation).

However, if it's potency is anything less than posted, it'll be useless.

Or instead of wasting a spot on SCH, you could add another DD. Minuet won't make up for the damage of another WAR or a DRG providing angon (Assuming you didn't have one earlier). Zerg situations usually have AoE healing covered either via PD or Curaga spam. Given that most of the damage during zergs comes from AoE spikes, I doubt regen will make up for that since most of the regen will have no effect (Capped HP melees) and will not regen fast enough. That's assuming the regen beats Regen IV, which is certainly not guaranteed (See Angon v SSJump).

[Leonlionheart]

Or instead of wasting a spot on SCH, you could add another DD. Minuet won't make up for the damage of another WAR or a DRG providing angon (Assuming you didn't have one earlier). Zerg situations usually have AoE healing covered either via PD or Curaga spam. Given that most of the damage during zergs comes from AoE spikes, I doubt regen will make up for that since most of the regen will have no effect (Capped HP melees) and will not regen fast enough. That's assuming the regen beats Regen IV, which is certainly not guaranteed (See Angon v SSJump).

See: Rotations

[Yugl]

See: Rotations
Wouldn't you just rotate another bard then?

Edit: Actually, someone gave me a VERY good use for such a 2hr....

[Urteil]

i just wanna make sure they arent fucking with monk or giving us another useless JA *footworks* again.

Its okay man.

You still don't have:

Dark Seal or Diabolic Eye!

[Urteil]

Could we get a DRK follow up?

Perhaps, maybe.

Pretty please.

[ffxititanplayer]

Is this a joke? RDM does have a big problem right now, but lolmelee isn't it. RDM was never intended to be a primarily melee oriented job at high levels and there's no reason to expect that to change.

The primary problem RDM faces in level 90 content is that RDM (and SCH) is no longer a useful healer! The game has been reduced to only one viable healer job and SE shows no indication of whether they even intended that to be the case. For both RDM and SCH, not a good enough healer + bad selection of yellow procs = unwanted job. Their unique spells are insignificant, or at least unappreciated.

Maybe, if the post-90 endgame doesn't have the enormous HP pools of abyssea, Cure IV will stop being junk, but even so, the fact that you have the same top heal as a BLM or BRD doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

There's no discussion (explicitly at least) of whether SE wants any job other than WHM to be able to heal effectively, or what plans they have to make that possible again at higher levels the way it was at 75.

LOLPLD!!!!

[Rearden]

Just gonna put this out there for those who don't know but, your CureIV with 40% potency is great and no one is gonna knock that, but CureIV outside of Abyssea on hard mobs is a near useless spell. The only thing it's going to do is cure less efficiently and generate more enmity. It's great in a pinch, but the reason WHM is so much better outside of Abyssea is CureV/VI. This is obvious for inside as well, and that's a dead horse...but having a smaller HP pool outside isn't going to make CureIV a good idea. That's why RDM and PLD tanks use it to build hate.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Haven't you heard from Pimpchan, lolCureVI, that leaves Cure V and cureskin!

Tranquil Heart was supposed to help alleviate the enmity generation but it's apparently less than -10 enmity...

[Raksha]

Tranquil Heart was supposed to help alleviate the enmity generation but it's apparently less than -10 enmity...

For now.

Plus it is a seperate term, so it stacks with -enmity from gear. A little goes a long way.

All in all though Tranquil Heart isn't gonna fix the problem.

[Korpg]

Haven't you heard from Pimpchan, lolCureVI, that leaves Cure V and cureskin!


For now, who knows, they may up the cap on MND/VIT for cures, or make it so Cure VI cures better the higher level you go.

We still got a ways to go yet.

[Leonlionheart]

Wouldn't you just rotate another bard then?

Edit: Actually, someone gave me a VERY good use for such a 2hr....

You could. Or a COR. Or a SCH if this is worth using.

They should toss out the regain and just add in Physical Damage+ like in FFXII

[Keyln]

There are three things that I think should be addressed with SCH.

Adloquim: While this spell is handy, it is much too slow to be of real use. 1 TP/tic is too slow for most situation, I feel, and that it could be more (such as 3 TP/tic). I will accept a reduction in how long the spell is on in exchange so that it will still be only 60 TP total, but I think it could be a bit faster.

Modus Veritas: This ability has been turned into a useful/useless ability. While it's useful against normal enemies, the ten minute timer greatly limits its use except for the big boss fights. However, against big bosses, the enemies that I want to use the ability on, it either misses entirely, or it has no effect. While I know why it was made the way it was, I think it's gone too far, and it's now in the category of useful/useless abilities. Please make it that so that Modus Veritas no longer misses or is resisted, but to avoid the situation of 18 Scholars one shotting AV, make it so that only one Modus is active at a time.

AoE Ability: One thing that SCH really lacks is an ability to massively kill enemies. While I can easily knock one or two fearsome foes single-handedly, I really don't have a way to kill even the weakest of enemies as effectively as other jobs. While I'm not suggesting that SCH should kill as easily as a BLM, but some sort of way to attack multiple enemies at once would be helpful.

Thanks for reading.

[Supersun]

Well for the weakest enemies you could always just AoE drain, but that's more of a nitpick.

[Malamasala]

Could we get a DRK follow up?

Perhaps, maybe.

Pretty please.

That would probably happen in the DRK thread.

[Urteil]

That would probably happen in the DRK thread.


You'd think, right.

[Seha]

Drk needs to sacrifice something.
They'll give something like an ability that strips the drk from all equipment to increase damage of next attack.

[hiko]

drk just need to sacrifice all their magic possibilty to become strong DD..


(= change job =>war)

[Asymptotic]

A new ability that jeopardizes the DRK's connection to the server to increase damage output.

[Yugl]

You could. Or a COR. Or a SCH if this is worth using.

They should toss out the regain and just add in Physical Damage+ like in FFXII

I thought I was going crazy since I remember seeing a march+3 instrument, but wiki didn't have it listed. However, it does exist, which means BRD 2hr Victory March + haste alone will cap you. That means they can give the extra Minuet even without SCH.

[Korpg]

Didn't they say that Brave will increase in potency as the level increases (for example, the Regen effect would be +5 at level 5 and the Haste would be +5 at level 5, but at level 90 it could be that the Regen effect would be +40 and the Haste would be at +25)?

[Seriha]

Even if it's something simple like 10% Haste, 15 Regen, and 3 tp/tic, they could allow using Rapture to double the potency of everything, basically giving it a growth option once you unlock that stratagem. Doubling its duration would then come later on.

[Bayohne]

Here is the follow-up to yesterday's Scholar post! I know it's been pointed out there's another thread, but it'd be weird to have part 1 here and part 2 there... I made a judgement call! (And I still blame Camate!)

We are working on responding to questions about spells and everything else by the beginning of next week.


Strategems


I would like the amount of charges for stratagems increased.
We will look into this, but balancing charges is surprisingly complicated, so we will need some time to work on this.


I would like Adloquium’s regain effect, when used in conjunction with Rapture, increased.
We may be able to work on a slight increase. However, considering that Rapture can be used relatively frequently, a drastic increase would be unlikely.


I would like Modus Veritas to land every time.
We have intentionally balanced its current effect with the possibility of misses in mind, so we do not plan on going back to the previous effects.


I would like the recast time for Modus Veritas to be shortened.
Since there are many requirements for this ability to take effect, we will look into reducing the recast time along with making the ability easier to use.


I want haste and fast cast effects to be added to Celerity and Alacrity.
We can look into this. However, if this were to be implemented, we would need to look into negative effects like slow, too.


I want the effects of Accession to apply to my alliance members as well.
Spreading the effects of Accession to the alliance will disrupt the balance of this ability compared with similar spells and abilities, so we aren’t considering this.


I would like Manifestation to be able to make Elemental Magic AoE.
We will continue to look into this, but the effects of spells that are turned into AoE by Manifestation are weakened, so adjustments to maintain that balance would also be necessary. Please be aware that implementing this will take a lot of time.

[Korpg]

Lots of "I wants" in that thread.

[OMEGA_HACK]

It should be strong to begin with but for the level it is cast.

Meaning that the equation will have to take in either Job level or Enhancing Skill level. I would like to see 8% Haste + 1tp/tic + 10hp/tic @lv5 and increase to 30% haste + 15tp/tic + 35hp/tic @99 (Maybe the Regain is too potent, but yeah it should get stronger). Also how will we obtain these spells? Do we just automatically get them or will we have to buy them? Quest them?

[Urteil]

Here is the follow-up to yesterday's Scholar post! I know it's been pointed out there's another thread, but it'd be weird to have part 1 here and part 2 there... I made a judgement call! (And I still blame Camate!)

We are working on responding to questions about spells and everything else by the beginning of next week.

To other jobs too, like Dark Knight and Summoner?



I want Drain III and Aspir III.

I would like to see their recast times reduced and casting speed reduced.
Have Drain II fall in line with Aspir II with both having 75s recast time.

Why does Aspir II have an 8 second casting time, please make this the same base casting speed as the other spells in the drain and aspir line.

Reduce the casting time on Dark Magic, or only just drain and aspir line of spells considerably by making it a job trait specific to DRK or adjusting the spells themselves.

I want Stun II.

I would like a Form of Terror spell based or JA based, BST has it, why not us.

I want a spell that absorbs a beneficial magic from a target and bestows it upon me, BLU has it, some DRK mobs can do it by swinging, why not us.

I want survivability via the form of Dark Magic.

Push DRK's parrying to A and balance it by limiting its effectiveness to only when two-handed weapon is equipped.

I want to know why Tactical parry exists on my job.

I want to know where my magical attack bonus traits are.

I want Absorb Spells to not decay, or have their drained amount drastically increased.

I would like Dark Knight to have job traits to reduce casting time on Dark Magic greatly.


We are looking forward to our answers!

Here's the threads:

DRK: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11544-DRK-Adjustments-via-Manifesto?p=158166#post158166

SMN: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12096-Job-Manifesto-discussion-RE-Summoner

[Siiri]

Lots of "I wants" in that thread.

Scholars won't be happy until they put white mages and black mages out of business. No concern ever for balance from that job's player base, especially considering how horribly overpowered scholar was at 75.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Actually Siiri, we don't want to put WHM and BLM out of a job, we just want to be wanted in a party setup. As it is now there is NO REASON to have a Scholar in your party, none what so ever since RDM, BLM, WHM can do it all at an even more efficient manner that SCH.

[Raksha]

Lots of "I wants" in that thread.

I think they are rephrasing them.

Did anyone else notice that, except for the Modus Veritas question, this is all useless shit that no one in the english forums have actually asked for?

[Korpg]

I think they are rephrasing them.

Did anyone else notice that, except for the Modus Veritas question, this is all useless shit that no one in the english forums have actually asked for?

I saw the Manifestation to AoE question in a thread here recently.

[Raksha]

I saw the Manifestation to AoE question in a thread here recently.

Possibly, but no one in their right mind thinks it will actually happen. There are lots of "I want crazy shit" threads that pop up all the time.

EDIT: Also if you read the Samurai Q&A you'll see "I want I Want I Want" also.

[Yugl]

Scholars won't be happy until they put white mages and black mages out of business. No concern ever for balance from that job's player base, especially considering how horribly overpowered scholar was at 75.

Despite SCH's superior MP conservation, the most efficient set ups preferred BLM for timeframe nukes, AoE, or stun.

Prior to 80, SCH couldn't haste.

Anyone suggesting SCH was overpowered pre-level cap change is a liar or rolls with inefficient (i.e. bad) groups.

[Korpg]

Despite SCH's superior MP conservation, the most efficient set ups preferred BLM for timeframe nukes, AoE, or stun.

Prior to 80, SCH couldn't haste.

Anyone suggesting SCH was overpowered pre-level cap change is a liar or rolls with inefficient (i.e. bad) groups.

I think he meant nukes were just as powerful as BLMs, but cost less for the same nuke (no AMII included).

[Septimus]

I would like Modus Veritas to land every time.We have intentionally balanced its current effect with the possibility of misses in mind, so we do not plan on going back to the previous effects.


The problem is that Modus Veritas is a trigger ability in Voidwatch. It seems that it is the only trigger job ability that can (and most times will) fail to work.

Wouldn't it be possible to make Modus Veritas a status effect that can only be placed on the mob when there is a helix to prevent other people from using it on the same mob? We can't overwrite Slow or Paralyze, Modus Veritas could be the same way so that it can actually land and SCH could do its Voidwatch procs.

[Yugl]

I think he meant nukes were just as powerful as BLMs, but cost less for the same nuke (no AMII included).

They weren't as powerful as BLMs though. BLM had much more MAB options and higher elemental magic skill (And accuracy mattered back then). In fact, sub RDM, SCH didn't have access to MAB trait II. There really was no contest as far as damage was concerned. MP efficiency is where SCH shined, but as I mentioned, access to stun/AoE/timeframe nukes often outperformed SCH's MP efficiency (Mostly useful during duration fights such as COP Wyrms).

[Sasaraixx]

Lots of "I wants" in that thread.

They are paraphrasing.



To other jobs too, like Dark Knight and Summoner?
There are 20 jobs. Have patience. They will make their rounds to everyone.



Scholars won't be happy until they put white mages and black mages out of business. No concern ever for balance from that job's player base, especially considering how horribly overpowered scholar was at 75.

I don't think you 1) play SCH or 2) have enough exposure to the community to make a statement like that. There are plenty of valid complaints with the job and if you read the forum you would know that. There are also ridiculous requests as well, but you'll find those on every forum as well.

[Raksha]

EDIT: Think I was wrong, carry on.

[Yugl]

Radec came up with the good suggestion of making Modus Veritas land 100% of the time, but suffer duration resistance.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

drk just need to sacrifice all their magic possibilty to become strong DD..SO give them a new Soul Eater that burns MP instead.

[Merton9999]

Scholars won't be happy until they put white mages and black mages out of business. No concern ever for balance from that job's player base, especially considering how horribly overpowered scholar was at 75.

Yes, actually, the intent of every SCH is specifically to make WHM and BLM obsolete. Well, maybe that's just me - I'd be ecstatic if I never had to look at that hideous WHM AF3 again. It's unbalanced for that to be so ugly. Actually this is unbalanced:

Every day:
Me: Hey LS, I got this great new ability on SCH that could be really useful in Abyssea...
LS: Shut up and stop lying, Mord, go switch to WHM


Lots of "I wants" in that thread.
Curiously, only one of those items was ever discussed at length on the English SCH job board. Just sayin'. Guess which one...

Modus Veritas
I'll wait and see what recast and ease-of-use adjustments are made, but I'm not buying the intentional balance of the ability based on misses. Unless SE is still thinking we're trying to exploit the exponentiation possibility, which, by the way, was obvious from the ability's introduction, and not gimped until years later? Is that even possible given the relatively new window in which MV can land?

Celerity and Alacrity
Slow already affects recast on spells that are used after Celerity and Alacrity. Haste does not. Why would making Haste work with these require Slow to be examined?

Manifestation and Nukes
Is this mistranslated? Has anyone noticed spells used with manifestation to be less potent? Gimped Drains? Resisted/short enfeebles? I thought maybe I just missed it for 4 years but wiki doesn't list this either. My guess is they meant that -ga nukes are reduced per mob affected so the same adjustment would have to be made to manifestation nukes and that will take time???

Accession applying to alliance
Um, lol? Not even I expected this.

[Raksha]

Radec came up with the good suggestion of making Modus Veritas land 100% of the time, but suffer duration resistance.

That would only be useful with MV merits, and even then I'd just rather let it run its normal duration than risk having the duration nerfed.

[Korpg]

They weren't as powerful as BLMs though. BLM had much more MAB options and higher elemental magic skill (And accuracy mattered back then). In fact, sub RDM, SCH didn't have access to MAB trait II. There really was no contest as far as damage was concerned. MP efficiency is where SCH shined, but as I mentioned, access to stun/AoE/timeframe nukes often outperformed SCH's MP efficiency (Mostly useful during duration fights such as COP Wyrms).

Well, you had to get the best possible gear, and they would be just as powerful as moderate geared BLMs at the time. But they were saying at the time that MP usage per damage was better than overall damage, which they had a point (until a BLM comes there and goes /SCH, but at that time that was considered suicide).

[Yugl]

That would only be useful with MV merits, and even then I'd just rather let it run its normal duration than risk having the duration nerfed.

The MV trick only worked with merits. Given SE's concerns, I figure it's either duration nerf or just not landing entirely and I would prefer the former.



Well, you had to get the best possible gear, and they would be just as powerful as moderate geared BLMs at the time. But they were saying at the time that MP usage per damage was better than overall damage, which they had a point (until a BLM comes there and goes /SCH, but at that time that was considered suicide).

Even with the best possible gear SCH wouldn't be close to BLM (No Morrigans, MAB trait 1 only, no merits for potency, less elemental magic skill, and no witch sash). And you realize you just made an argument for BLM by saying the *best* geared SCH would only match moderately geared BLM right? And by moderately geared, you're really talking about gimp BLMs.

As for MP conservation, I've stated repeatedly that SCH did have superiority, but that for most content, that was irrelevant since you most content required stun/AoE/timeframe nukes.

[Raksha]

The MV trick only worked with merits. Given SE's concerns, I figure it's either duration nerf or just not landing entirely and I would prefer the former.

Why not just nerf the merits and make it work like every sane person thinks it should?

EDIT: Or realize that it's not really a big deal if our Helices are a little better and get their panties out of a twist.

[Yugl]

Why not just nerf the merits and make it work like every sane person thinks it should?

EDIT: Or realize that it's not really a big deal if our Helices are a little better and get their panties out of a twist.

They could do that, but they don't seem to want to do that given their rejection of MV reform in combination with the promise of merit reform. As for the edit, the helix issue was kind of a big deal (18x SCH could one "helix" Hydra/potencially AV; plus, the method encouraged 3PP "On event"). Then again, no one really uses 18 people anymore.

[Korpg]

Even with the best possible gear SCH wouldn't be close to BLM (No Morrigans, MAB trait 1 only, no merits for potency, less elemental magic skill, and no witch sash). And you realize you just made an argument for BLM by saying the *best* geared SCH would only match moderately geared BLM right? And by moderately geared, you're really talking about gimp BLMs. By your definition, then yes. I agree with you that BLM > SCH when it comes to damage and crowd control though


As for MP conservation, I've stated repeatedly that SCH did have superiority, but that for most content, that was irrelevant since you most content required stun/AoE/timeframe nukes.

Not going against you there either.

[Korpg]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

....click the "Start a New Thread" button on the main page for General Discussion. If you need a guide for that....there is no help you can use....

[Raksha]

As for the edit, the helix issue was kind of a big deal (18x SCH could one "helix" Hydra/potencially AV; plus, the method encouraged 3PP "On event"). Then again, no one really uses 18 people anymore.


Yes I was assuming that the "Multiple Modus" issue would be fixed some other way. No reason to have it resist if it can be used only once per mob.

[Sasaraixx]

Manifestation and Nukes
Is this mistranslated? Has anyone noticed spells used with manifestation to be less potent? Gimped Drains? Resisted/short enfeebles?

I believe that is a mistranslation. I went back and looked at Mocchi's original post.


検討は続けていきますが、精霊光来の章で範囲化した魔法は対象が増えても効果が減衰しないので、そのまま
範囲化というわけには行かず、バランスを取るための調整が必要になります。

That says, "We are continuing to examine but spells made AoE by Manifestation do not have their effect decreased even if the targets increase. Therefore we cannot go ahead with the change to area effect in the same way. An adjustment that preserves balance will be necessary."

[StingRay104]

Here is the follow-up to yesterday's Scholar post! I know it's been pointed out there's another thread, but it'd be weird to have part 1 here and part 2 there... I made a judgement call! (And I still blame Camate!)

We are working on responding to questions about spells and everything else by the beginning of next week.


Strategems


We will look into this, but balancing charges is surprisingly complicated, so we will need some time to work on this.


We may be able to work on a slight increase. However, considering that Rapture can be used relatively frequently, a drastic increase would be unlikely.


We have intentionally balanced its current effect with the possibility of misses in mind, so we do not plan on going back to the previous effects.


Since there are many requirements for this ability to take effect, we will look into reducing the recast time along with making the ability easier to use.


We can look into this. However, if this were to be implemented, we would need to look into negative effects like slow, too.


Spreading the effects of Accession to the alliance will disrupt the balance of this ability compared with similar spells and abilities, so we aren’t considering this.


We will continue to look into this, but the effects of spells that are turned into AoE by Manifestation are weakened, so adjustments to maintain that balance would also be necessary. Please be aware that implementing this will take a lot of time.

Can you just remove Modus Veritas then. Seriously if your gonna give us spells as lame as the helix spells and then make the only ability that can make them remotely worth casting have such a horendous hit rate, IE:1% as far as I've seen on anything worth hitting it on, we are really just better off without it and the damn helix spells. The idea for manifestation to effect nukes is a great idea especially since it does lower nuke damage a little as a negative, but remember it should be like a 10% max downgrade on damage otherwise it will be worthless as well. Also I understand that due to the fact the DRK community completely rejected all your ideas that the devs have to come up with something else, but please don't forget about us in the end.

[Alhanelem]

We have intentionally balanced its current effect with the possibility of misses in mind, so we do not plan on going back to the previous effects.The thing is, these changes were instituted to counter a stacking exploit.

It's ridiculous for an ability with a 10 minute timer to miss like that. (Hell, it's ridiculous for eagle eye shot to miss at all either)

[Cymmina]

I agree with you that BLM > SCH when it comes to damage and crowd control though

Except SCH is better at crowd control than BLM. Was better at 75, still better at 90. BLM may have more sleep options (Sleep, Sleepga, Sleep II, Sleepga II), but SCH has 5 Stratagems to use with Break, Bind, and Gravity (depending on subjob) to keep their face from getting smashed in once Sleep(ga) II's duration ends, in addition to their own 2 sleeps. I've been the primary sleeper for Dynamis as RDM/BLM, BLM/RDM (before SCH got Stoneskin), and SCH/BLM. SCH/BLM is hands down the best, no contest. BLM/SCH comes in second, due to the 2 Stratagem limitation.

[Korpg]

Except SCH is better at crowd control than BLM. Was better at 75, still better at 90. BLM may have more sleep options (Sleep, Sleepga, Sleep II, Sleepga II), but SCH has 5 Stratagems to use with Break, Bind, and Gravity (depending on subjob) to keep their face from getting smashed in once Sleep(ga) II's duration ends, in addition to their own 2 sleeps. I've been the primary sleeper for Dynamis as RDM/BLM, BLM/RDM (before SCH got Stoneskin), and SCH/BLM. SCH/BLM is hands down the best, no contest. BLM/SCH comes in second, due to the 2 Stratagem limitation.

Ok, now I know you don't know what you are talking about.

Why would a BLM use Manifestation + Sleep anyway? A good BLM can keep the mobs slept with just Sleepga II. On the odd case that some mobs get woken up accidentally or a shorter sleep than usual, a quick sleepga or Sleep II will do the job. Unless you are thinking about Break + Manifestation, which in that case, you might have a point....might. But Sleep works just as well and is more reliable than Break.

[Raksha]

Ok, now I know you don't know what you are talking about.

Why would a BLM use Manifestation + Sleep anyway? A good BLM can keep the mobs slept with just Sleepga II. On the odd case that some mobs get woken up accidentally or a shorter sleep than usual, a quick sleepga or Sleep II will do the job. Unless you are thinking about Break + Manifestation, which in that case, you might have a point....might. But Sleep works just as well and is more reliable than Break.

/facepalm

A blm/sch would use manifestation for AoE bind, gravity, and stun in addition to break. Probably not for AoE sleep.

Hydra mobs for instance arent sleepable.

EDIT: also AoE aspir and alacrity sleepga2

[cogg]

while camping magian NMs i had time to think of an adjustment for every job!
edited, thanks for constructive feedback.

WAR - Ability that greatly extends the skillchain effect duration of your next Weapon Skill, to increase the solo-Skillchaining potential of Meditate and Reverse Flourish.

SMN - Ability that switches Hit Point % between you and your pet.

MNK - Ability that increases Guard rate, but also increases H2H delay.

DRG - Enhance Jump to increase damage with distance from target.

THF - Ability that limits attacks to a single swing, and multiplies damage at the rate of multi-swing hits.

SCH - Main job Scholars able to use Haste / Regen III / Cure V with Accession.

WHM - Job Trait that shortens the duration of negative status effects.

PUP - Occasionally, using Pet Abilities will not consume maneuvers, also enhance puppet with Conserve TP and Conserve MP.

NIN - Ability that enhances magic attack / accuracy for next spell only. If the next spell is ninjutsu, a tool will not be consumed.

BST - Occasionally, pet items will not be consumed, also enhance pets summoned with Call Beast with Conserve TP.

BLM - Ability that enhances magic damage for next spell only, but also increases casting time.

RDM - Ability that lowers Spell Interruption Rate and enhances Fast Cast, but also decreases the duration of enhancing magic. Mutually exclusive with Composure.

BRD - Ability that enhances your next song by +2, and the following song by +1.

COR - Ability that causes your next ranged attack to reset hate towards all players from your target, but also lowers ranged accuracy for that shot.

DNC - Step that reduces Double Attack / Triple Attack / Critical hit rate of your target.

PLD - Job Trait that increases your Parry rate.

DRK - Job Ability that increases damage by 50%, but also increases attack delay by 33%.

RNG - Job Ability that maximizes your next shot's damage regardless of target range.

BLU - Enhance Chain Affinity to greatly extend the Magic Burst effect duration of any skillchain created by your blue magic spells, to increase the usefulness of Burst Affinity.

SAM - Enhance Seigan to drain TP with the first swing of your attack.

[Urteil]

while camping magian NMs i had time to think of an adjustment for every job!

WAR - Ability that greatly extends the skillchain effect of your next Weapon Skill, enhancing the usefulness of Meditate and Reverse Flourish to allow self-Skillchaining.

SMN - Ability that switches Hit Point % between you and your pet.

MNK - Ability that increases Guard rate, but also increases H2H delay.

DRG - Enhance Jump to increase damage with distance from target, but also increases readying delay.

THF - Ability that limits attacks to a single swing, and multiplies damage at the rate of multi-swing hits.

SCH - Main job Scholars able to use Haste / Regen III / Cure V with Accession.

WHM - Job Trait that shortens the duration of negative status effects.

PUP - Occasionally, Job Ability timers will not be reset upon use.

NIN - Ability that enhances magic attack / accuracy for next spell only. If the next spell is ninjutsu, a tool will not be consumed.

BST - Occasionally, pet items will not be consumed.

BLM - Ability that enhances magic attack for next spell only, but increases casting time also.

RDM - Ability that lowers rate of spell interruption rate and enhances Fast Cast, but decreases the duration of enhancing magic. Mutually exclusive with Composure.

BRD - Ability that enhances your next song by +2, and the following song by +1.

COR - Ability that causes your next ranged attack to reset hate towards all players from your target, but lowers ranged accuracy for that shot also.

DNC - Step that reduces Double Attack / Triple Attack / Critical hit rate on your target.

PLD - Job Trait that increases your Parry rate.

DRK - Job Ability that greatly increases attack, but increases attack delay also.

RNG - Job Ability that maximizes your next shot's damage regardless of target range.

BLU - Enhance Chain Affinity to greatly extend the Magic Burst effect duration of any skillchain created by your blue magic spells, enhancing the usefulness of Burst Affinity.

SAM - Enhance Seigan to drain TP with the first swing of your attack.


What is this, I don't even. . .

[Seha]

I could quote them one by one, but I'll just say...god, no.

[Urteil]

I would hope honestly that by now everyone realizes that job abilities that boost the ATK stat at this point are nearly worthless for DRK.


Unless by "ATK" you are talking about a straight % of increased damage dealt or some type of penetration vs damage mitigation.

[Minsc]

SE, please, please just make Insurgency a critical hit weapon skill. If this is not done... I swear to Altana... I will burn my Mog House to the ground, moogle and all! If you care about your fellow moogles, you will make this happen.

That is all.

[StingRay104]

PUP - Occasionally, Job Ability timers will not be reset upon use.

So your idea of making PUP better is by making it worst? EPIC FAILGA is all I can say about your entire post except for this one quote, there just isn;t enough negative words in any language to describe how wrong this is.

[Slycer]

/facepalm

A blm/sch would use manifestation for AoE bind, gravity, and stun in addition to break. Probably not for AoE sleep.

Hydra mobs for instance arent sleepable.

EDIT: also AoE aspir and alacrity sleepga2

BLM/SCH would not have access to gravity.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: pointed out already, but to Aoe Gravity Sch loses Sleepga without a strategem if it matters. Also /Blm lacks curing utility if it matters as you'll have to switch arts and use up strategems on Addendums.

[Korpg]

Plus, there are no jobs that deal out AoE Light-based sleep....oh wai...

[Raksha]

Plus, there are no jobs that deal out AoE Light-based sleep....oh wai...

Perhaps you have a short memory, but the claim being made is that BLM/SCH is the second best crowd controller in dynamis (or even the entire game). Are you saying that BRD or BLU are the second best crowd controller in the game?


BLM/SCH would not have access to gravity.

Doh! Yeah I missed that one.

[Kagato]

Dear Dev Room:

Hello. This is Kagato again. Thought I would share my opinions about the Dark Knight Manifesto.

Ok. DRK is supposed to sacrifice something in order to gain something. Alright. I'll bite.

Sacrificing TP to deal greater damage isn't a very good idea unless the damage boost is high enough to make us not want to bother with Weapon Skills. Otherwise, every DRK in the game is going to ignore this ability. The way we Dark Knights play this game is to get TP as quickly as possible in order to use Guillotine (scythe) or Torcleaver (Great Sword) as often as we can for the highest possible damage per second. The amount of damage we get from this ability needs to compensate for the TP loss. If we ultimately do less damage or an equal amount of damage that we normally would do without this new ability, then there is absolutely no reason to use it. In order for us Dark Knights to want to use this ability, we need to do more damage overall than we used to.

The way we gear ourselves is to pack on the Haste gear and then get as much Store TP as we can to reach 100% TP in the fewest amount of swings, so this includes Store TP gear and having a Samurai Subjob. I don't know how aware the developers are to us playing this way, but it's how we do things in order to keep up with other jobs. With Scythes, the ultimate goal is to get enough TP to use a weaponskill in a minimum of 5 attacks. With Greatswords, it's 6. By lowering or removing TP gain, that strategy goes away. Therefore, we Dark Knights need a reason to want to use an ability that lowers TP gain.


Now then, on to magic.

An ability that increases magic damage and magic weaponskill damage by increasing overall damage taken is only half as good as it sounds. Dark Knights have little need to want to be close to an enemy with terrible defenses in order to use an Elemental Weaponskill (which, by the way, DRKs pretty much never, ever use). That leaves us with increased elemental magic power. Ok, I can see how that could be useful for when melee isn't a good idea. I have been in a few fights where all I could do to help is sit back and cast dark magic...

Wait. Dark magic....

Yeah about that... Dark Knights don't really find any usefulness out of elemental magic spells since we do very little damage with them. So here is my proposal. if you want to give us an ability that increases out elemental magical damage, then that ability needs to make our elemental magic do damage equal to any of the "IV" spells since all we have is "III" spells. If that can be done, then I'm ok with it. If not, then elemental magic is going to continue collecting dust in my magic list.

******************

We try not to think of short-term benefits. We look at long term. We want to have abilities that sacrifices something to gain something else the right way.

Therefore, this is my suggestion:

If I remember correctly, there is an ability in Final Fantasy IX that allows a character to sacrifice MP in order to deal higher melee damage. Perhaps that can be used instead of TP, like a souleater for MP called "Mindeater" or something. Or, sacrificing overall magical ability in order to increase overall physical damage output might be a good idea too.

Vice Versa can be said for Magic. If you still like the idea of TP loss = gain in something, then why not sacrifice melee power for magic power? TP is part of melee, so if you want us to sacrifice TP, have us do so to increase MAGICAL damage. This would give Occult Acumen more use as well since casting magic feeds us a little TP at a time, extending the use of this ability. Perhaps something that increases weapon delay and decreases defense (like in the manifesto) that increases all magic output rather than just elemental. Dark Magic becomes stronger and more potent while elemental magic becomes strong enough to be more viable against monsters of our own level.

With this idea in mind, Dark Knights can continue to sacrifice something in order to gain power elsewhere while also allowing us Dark Knights more versatility in combat since we can pretty much activate "melee mode" or "magic mode." And of course, not using anything makes us well-rounded but not better in either aspect.

*******

So, very long story short, Dark Knights want abilities that are useful overall in the long run. In order to keep Dark Knights happy while still using their "sacrifice something in order to gain something else," the most logical stance is to sacrifice magical ability to increase melee ability and melee ability sacrificed for magical ability.

The current manifesto basically says that we sacrifice melee for melee and defense for magic. It just doesn't seem really logical.

Also, one more thing. It would be nice to give us new Dark Magic spells exclusive to us. Be they new absorb spells or Dark Magic based enfeebles, like Curse or Plague.

Dark Knights want to be versatile in every situation. Maybe not in the same vain as Warriors being able to use any melee weapon they wish and to change between being a tank or a damage dealer with all of their options, but in a way where Dark Knights can aid a battle through melee or magical means.

Having the ability to choose which "battle stance" we want, melee or magic, would give us such versatility.

[Dart]

couldn't have wrote it better myself (well I could have! but i'm being polite!) mwah ha ha ha ha ha


also dear se,

plz gawd fix our weaponskill damage numbers.

They're pitiful.

[Kagato]

Actually, if you write your own "version" than they might be more inclined to listen since it's not just one crazy DRK throwing his own logic around.

It'll be two. :3

[Urteil]

Actually, if you write your own "version" than they might be more inclined to listen since it's not just one crazy DRK throwing his own logic around.

It'll be two. :3

Actually its three, and I'd be #1.

Hello #2 and #3, nice to meet you.



couldn't have wrote it better myself (well I could have! but i'm being polite!) mwah ha ha ha ha ha


also dear se,

plz gawd fix our weaponskill damage numbers.

They're pitiful.


Post it too, god knows I have. Here go look and talk about it there too.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11544-DRK-Adjustments-via-Manifesto

Make a new thread even, then they'll realize that three of us are not crazy, and to stop throwing this sillyness around.

[Urteil]

Dear Dev Room:

Hello. This is Kagato again. Thought I would share my opinions about the Dark Knight Manifesto.

Ok. DRK is supposed to sacrifice something in order to gain something. Alright. I'll bite.

Sacrificing TP to deal greater damage isn't a very good idea unless the damage boost is high enough to make us not want to bother with Weapon Skills. Otherwise, every DRK in the game is going to ignore this ability. The way we Dark Knights play this game is to get TP as quickly as possible in order to use Guillotine (scythe) or Torcleaver (Great Sword) as often as we can for the highest possible damage per second. The amount of damage we get from this ability needs to compensate for the TP loss. If we ultimately do less damage or an equal amount of damage that we normally would do without this new ability, then there is absolutely no reason to use it. In order for us Dark Knights to want to use this ability, we need to do more damage overall than we used to.

The way we gear ourselves is to pack on the Haste gear and then get as much Store TP as we can to reach 100% TP in the fewest amount of swings, so this includes Store TP gear and having a Samurai Subjob. I don't know how aware the developers are to us playing this way, but it's how we do things in order to keep up with other jobs. With Scythes, the ultimate goal is to get enough TP to use a weaponskill in a minimum of 5 attacks. With Greatswords, it's 6. By lowering or removing TP gain, that strategy goes away. Therefore, we Dark Knights need a reason to want to use an ability that lowers TP gain.


Now then, on to magic.

An ability that increases magic damage and magic weaponskill damage by increasing overall damage taken is only half as good as it sounds. Dark Knights have little need to want to be close to an enemy with terrible defenses in order to use an Elemental Weaponskill (which, by the way, DRKs pretty much never, ever use). That leaves us with increased elemental magic power. Ok, I can see how that could be useful for when melee isn't a good idea. I have been in a few fights where all I could do to help is sit back and cast dark magic...

Wait. Dark magic....

Yeah about that... Dark Knights don't really find any usefulness out of elemental magic spells since we do very little damage with them. So here is my proposal. if you want to give us an ability that increases out elemental magical damage, then that ability needs to make our elemental magic do damage equal to any of the "IV" spells since all we have is "III" spells. If that can be done, then I'm ok with it. If not, then elemental magic is going to continue collecting dust in my magic list.

******************

We try not to think of short-term benefits. We look at long term. We want to have abilities that sacrifices something to gain something else the right way.

Therefore, this is my suggestion:

If I remember correctly, there is an ability in Final Fantasy IX that allows a character to sacrifice MP in order to deal higher melee damage. Perhaps that can be used instead of TP, like a souleater for MP called "Mindeater" or something. Or, sacrificing overall magical ability in order to increase overall physical damage output might be a good idea too.

Vice Versa can be said for Magic. If you still like the idea of TP loss = gain in something, then why not sacrifice melee power for magic power? TP is part of melee, so if you want us to sacrifice TP, have us do so to increase MAGICAL damage. This would give Occult Acumen more use as well since casting magic feeds us a little TP at a time, extending the use of this ability. Perhaps something that increases weapon delay and decreases defense (like in the manifesto) that increases all magic output rather than just elemental. Dark Magic becomes stronger and more potent while elemental magic becomes strong enough to be more viable against monsters of our own level.

With this idea in mind, Dark Knights can continue to sacrifice something in order to gain power elsewhere while also allowing us Dark Knights more versatility in combat since we can pretty much activate "melee mode" or "magic mode." And of course, not using anything makes us well-rounded but not better in either aspect.

*******

So, very long story short, Dark Knights want abilities that are useful overall in the long run. In order to keep Dark Knights happy while still using their "sacrifice something in order to gain something else," the most logical stance is to sacrifice magical ability to increase melee ability and melee ability sacrificed for magical ability.

The current manifesto basically says that we sacrifice melee for melee and defense for magic. It just doesn't seem really logical.

Also, one more thing. It would be nice to give us new Dark Magic spells exclusive to us. Be they new absorb spells or Dark Magic based enfeebles, like Curse or Plague.

Dark Knights want to be versatile in every situation. Maybe not in the same vain as Warriors being able to use any melee weapon they wish and to change between being a tank or a damage dealer with all of their options, but in a way where Dark Knights can aid a battle through melee or magical means.

Having the ability to choose which "battle stance" we want, melee or magic, would give us such versatility.


Dark Knight having a stance that increases defense and reduces damage taken, while increasing magical damage output, casting speed, and having negatives on melee like increased delay is alright.

On the flipside us having a stance that increases physical damage output while furthering to sacrifice defense would make sense.


But sacrificing defense and taking more damage to deal more TERRIBLE, INEFFICIENT, PANTS-ON-HEAD-RETARDED magical damage? (MOAR DEEPS WITH THEM TIER 3'S YO).




Uh, what?

Come on SE.

[Urteil]

I wonder if they think that Dark Knights go around spamming herculean slash, tier III's, and rock sets of full parrying gear, or sub scholar for any team-play abyssea/voidwatch/anythingthatreallymatters, event.




Only in PvP or dicking around in campaign or standing in town, do I sub scholar, and even then the first three items in that list of nonsense never happen.

[Frost]

No offense intended, but you're getting a little overbearing with the whole Drk thing. We get it, you think the job sucks and you want it to be War.

Can we move on?
You've said your piece, they've told you the direction they wish to take the job.

Do you send letters to George Lucas telling him how you think his movies should be? Do you go on forums saying how much their next movie sucks when it hasn't even been released yet?

While your passion for the job can be applauded, it's bordering on insanity. Dark Knight isn't as bad as you think it is. You should know this since you love it to the point of being fanatical. You've done all you can, just relax and hope for the best, while being open-minded to new ideas.

Or.. Play war, since the majority of the "fixes" presented by Drks amount to a relabeled Aggressor, Berserk, Blood Rage, War Cry, etc etc etc...

Or... At the very least, play some of the other content in the game and realize Dark Knight is STILL a powerhouse outside of Abyssea... (Abyssea isn't going to be the last and only content in the game. It's already getting dated with people maxing out on exp/merits/gear/weapons...)

[Siiri]

No offense intended, but you're getting a little overbearing with the whole Drk thing. We get it, you think the job sucks and you want it to be War.

Can we move on?
You've said your piece, they've told you the direction they wish to take the job.

Do you send letters to George Lucas telling him how you think his movies should be? Do you go on forums saying how much their next movie sucks when it hasn't even been released yet?

While your passion for the job can be applauded, it's bordering on insanity. Dark Knight isn't as bad as you think it is. You should know this since you love it to the point of being fanatical. You've done all you can, just relax and hope for the best, while being open-minded to new ideas.

Or.. Play war, since the majority of your "fixes" amount to a relabeled Aggressor, Berserk, Blood Rage, War Cry, etc etc etc...

Or... At the very least, play some of the other content in the game and realize Dark Knight is STILL a powerhouse outside of Abyssea... (Abyssea isn't going to be the last and only content in the game. It's already getting dated with people maxing out on exp/merits/gear/weapons...)

I checked your profile and of course you play SAM and WAR, SE"s 2 favorite DD classes. As for DRK, they have the highest base weapons and the greatest attack, at one point they were supposed to challenge SAM and WAR, but SE fell in love with these magical updates. And fyi, DRK already has their own versions of berserk, aggressor via last resort and diabolic eye. The magic side of DRK has been done to death with the last few updates, they need some straight out crit bonuses and crit weapon skills. No one cares about herculean slash/infernal scythe, unless they buff them to do 3k damage or whatever war's with full perle do on raging rush.

[Septimus]

Here is a crazy thought if the Devs want DRKs to cast elemental magic. Have DRKs get elemental spells at the same level as RDMs, this would give DRK up to Blizzard IV now and Thunder IV at 92.

Of course DRKs would still rarely cast elemental magic because you also need gear and an MP pool for that sort of thing; but at least they would have something to cast if they wanted to do that sort of thing.

[Siiri]

Here is a crazy thought if the Devs want DRKs to cast elemental magic. Have DRKs get elemental spells at the same level as RDMs, this would give DRK up to Blizzard IV now and Thunder IV at 92.

Of course DRKs would still rarely cast elemental magic because you also need gear and an MP pool for that sort of thing; but at least they would have something to cast if they wanted to do that sort of thing.

That is what kills me about the whole magic obsession, does SE not realize DRKs do not have the mp pool to cast a lot of spells. My DRK would have the mp pool to cast 2 tier 4s, and this is with mp merits. Also Occult Acumen should have been a straight 20 tp/spell, not this 2 tp garbage they saddled DRKS with. I don't understand why SE repeatedly overpowers SAM and WAR yet is so afraid of jobs like DRK and THF.

[Frost]

Your argument is a Red Herring. Just because I leveled Sam and/or War doesn't mean I necessarily bias towards them. I play Thief, Blu, and Nin more often, due to their usefulness in todays current events, doesn't mean I don't like my other jobs, or that I even like Nin, Thief or War. And just because I used them for comparison, doesn't imply I like them less either.

What I do like is Variety...

And it looks like SE is really trying to sculpt Dark Knight away from the homogeneous blob of "Melee DD"; and I respect that. I look forward to whatever they are adding to the job, because frankly I enjoy it as is, and new dynamics to the job are always interesting, and welcome.

I just read these posts, and the frequency and amplitude of the rage they present, laced with a heavy dose of defeatist rhetoric is nauseating... In the same breath a Drk screams "If only, just make Last Resort last as long as Berserk" the cry that it's not enough. I'm sorry, I just don't see the job as weakly as other Darks do. I always welcome a skilled Drk into my events, and I personally find no shortage of invites for my Drk either.

It's just a different playstyle. If you're not amused with it, try another job.

[Seha]

I don't play Drk and I don't even like the job.
But its update have been clearly pathetic lately. And it's not going any better.
The atk+ with self-plague looks so stupid, and lol elemental ws <_<
And as many have said before, it's useless to nuke without even a tier of mab(and I doubt drks like to sub rdm for that, I think they like sam much more).

[Frost]

[...] I don't understand why SE repeatedly overpowers SAM and WAR yet is so afraid of jobs like DRK and THF.

Wut?

Thief is awesome. Idk why you could think it to be underpowered or neglected by SE at all in SE's history.

-Gave them a 20% - 33% increase in the base damage of daggers.
-Gave Trick Attack forced Crit.
- TH III
- Treassur Hunter "Debuff" that you can see level up.
- Despoil (I know... odd, but it's still SOMETHING)
- Accomplice, and when that wasn't enough: Collaborator.
- MASSIVE evasion, then MORE evasion.
- Easily Capped Haste on gear.
- Conspirator.
- Pretty solid, decent Merit abilities.
- Guaranteed party inclusion.
- 5-Hit Crit Weaponskill Based on Dex...(Cont...)
- - An Atma in the new content that is 50 Dex, 30% Crit Rate, & 30% Crit Damage that's for a job that's two main abilities, one Dex based, are Crits and a Weaponskill that's a 5-Hit Crit Weaponskill one that's heavily based on Dex....

There's more I'm sure, but that's just a few moments thinking about it.
As a thief I've been able to duo anythign with a Whm that a Mnk+Whm combo has been able to do, and have TH; as an added bonus, I've been able to duo exponentially more outside of Abyssea, and through the years.

Thief is not a weak job... And it's Far from neglected, as you've implied.

[Seha]

Oh Frost...you're so out of this world...

[Siiri]

Wut?

Thief is awesome. Idk why you could think it to be underpowered or neglected by SE at all in SE's history.

There's more I'm sure, but that's just a few moments thinking about it.
As a thief I've been able to duo anythign with a Whm that a Mnk+Whm combo has been able to do, and have TH; as an added bonus, I've been able to duo exponentially more outside of Abyssea, and through the years.

Thief is not a weak job... And it's Far from neglected, as you've implied.

I was mostly referring to the SE update note in the forums that putting steal and aura steal on the same timer would be overpowered, when they told the SAMs that all their job abilities would be on seperate timers. That seems really off to me. Sorry I was unclear. DRK is just a mess of bad updates though. Absorb-tp was nerfed and then unnerfed by Bale Gauntlets +2, what other job had an ability nerfed just to get it back with AF+3? Crazy! What are they so afraid of?

[Frost]

I was mostly referring to the SE update note in the forums that putting steal and aura steal on the same timer would be overpowered, when they told the SAMs that all their job abilities would be on seperate timers. That seems really off to me. Sorry I was unclear. DRK is just a mess of bad updates though. Absorb-tp was nerfed and then unnerfed by Bale Gauntlets +2, what other job had an ability nerfed just to get it back with AF+3? Crazy! What are they so afraid of?

Fair Enough. Just looked like a head scratcher at first glance lol.

Funny you shoudl mention the Ab-TP thing though. Got in an agrument about "How useless Ab-TP is, because you could get more TP from swinging your weapon." While true, it also niglects the other role of Ab-TP... Removing TP from the monster... (Only stating that to illustrate point: People dont' see the whole picture.)

I guess what I am saying, in a more non-combative way, is that, to me dark is already powerful. The updates may be a little wierd, like putting a spoiler on a minivan... But when you got something that already works for the most part, and it has a theme, and that theme has been ignored in lieu of design simplicity; why not go back to fortify that theme... Would it kill the people to respect that? Drk is a Warrior that uses Dark Magic, and the magic aspect has been ignored by the player base. They're trying to make that defining aspect of the job stronger, more relevant, while retaining the already powerful job that, short of a crit weaponskill that's only really relevant in one arena, is still extremely viable.

[Siiri]

Fair Enough. Just looked like a head scratcher at first glance lol.

Funny you shoudl mention the Ab-TP thing though. Got in an agrument about "How useless Ab-TP is, because you could get more TP from swinging your weapon." While true, it also niglects the other role of Ab-TP... Removing TP from the monster... (Only stating that to illustrate point: People dont' see the whole picture.)

I guess what I am saying, in a more non-combative way, is that, to me dark is already powerful. The updates may be a little wierd, like putting a spoiler on a minivan... But when you got something at already works for the most part, and it has a theme, and that theme has been ignored in lieu of design simplicity. They seem to be going back to fortify that theme... Would it kill the people to respect that? Drk is a Warrior that uses Dark Magic, and the magic aspect has been ignored by the player base. They're trying to make that defining aspect of the job stronger, more relevant, while retaining the already powerful job, that short of a crit weaponskill that's only really relevant in one arena, is still extremely viable, potent?

Absorb-tp is awesome, we have a great Drk who even goes to abyssea a lot on drk and can absorb 80 tp often off +2 mobs. I don't disagree with improving the magic side per se, they just always go about it so weirdly. Adding additional absorb spells, removing the decay off them, cutting casting time and recast on Dread Spikes and Absorb spells, cutting recast on Drains, adding another Stun (Blue Mage has 3 i believe?) maybe adding new spells that are mentioned repeatedly in the Drk forums are all ways to improve the magic side. Occult acumen? Not so much. Improve elemental weaponskills? They do like 450 damage for infernal scythe and 650 maybe for Herculean, exactly how much are they going to improve them? Triple, quadruple? Anything less what would be the point? That is my issues.

[Frost]

Absorb-tp is awesome, we have a great Drk who even goes to abyssea a lot on drk and can absorb 80 tp often off +2 mobs. I don't disagree with improving the magic side per se, they just always go about it so weirdly. Adding additional absorb spells, removing the decay off them, cutting casting time and recast on Dread Spikes and Absorb spells, cutting recast on Drains, adding another Stun (Blue Mage has 3 i believe?) maybe adding new spells that are mentioned repeatedly in the Drk forums are all ways to improve the magic side. Occult acumen? Not so much. Improve elemental weaponskills? They do like 450 damage for infernal scythe and 650 maybe for Herculean, exactly how much are they going to improve them? Triple, quadruple? Anything less what would be the point? That is my issues.

The Ab-X Spells will come in time, they need to be spread out. We usually get a few each update, so I got no doubt we will get more. The obvious ones probably being Absorb Attack, maybe Absorb Speed, but whatever, we got 9 more levels to go and about 5 more stats we could tap. It's almost guaranteed we'll get at least 6 more spells.

On that note, I bet a dozen donuts that "The Merit Rework" they keep hinting at includes getting rid of Bio III on Rdm and replacing it with something different, or more potent (Bio IV?) and letting Blms and Drks have Bio III. I assume this because I don't think SE actually intended the content to go past 75; there's evidence of that all over the place, and even more evidence they're gearing up to do a cleanup of sorts. Another example would be Protectra/Shellra VI. It would be really stupid to have Protectra/Shellra V merited and have a scroll for VI, right? And it's pretty safe to assume they will add at least Protect/Shell VI at some point...

To your other comment:
IN ABYSSEA... I actually am surprised at how well Infernal does, and it doesn't take much to bump up its damage. If you're using regular WS gear, then yeah, it will do crap damage...

Outside I can't really speak for it, considering Liberator/Guillotine do fine.

In short, people are just being too impatient and short sighted. Granted, the "old SE" wasn't the best at making sense... But the current crew seems to 'get it' to an extent. Now it's our turn. Have a little faith.

[Seha]

DEEEEVS!!!
The lv cap increase is close, give us more info!!! RIGHT NOW!!! *throws a slipper at the team*

[Elexia]

Scholars won't be happy until they put white mages and black mages out of business. No concern ever for balance from that job's player base, especially considering how horribly overpowered scholar was at 75.

I remember when you people called us Gimped RDMs then we came in strong and bitch slapped all of you so badly you cried to daddy SE to make your jobs better.

Good times.

[Siiri]

I remember when you people called us Gimped RDMs then we came in strong and bitch slapped all of you so badly you cried to daddy SE to make your jobs better.

Good times.

After scholars cried for months just like they are now that they are underpowered? editing some of this out, I wrote in anger at her reply. Suffice to say, Elexia's quote is why scholars have been a very hated job by a lot of other mages. So many of them seem to want only to bury other mages instead of co-existing in a balance.

[Sotek]

Also Occult Acumen should have been a straight 20 tp/spell, not this 2 tp garbage they saddled DRKS with.

Occult Acumen should have been "Spell casting does not interrupt melee attacks", with gear enhancing it and further traits offering the TP bonus, or make it something like "Occult Acumen: 25% attack speed while casting elemental magic" all the way up to IV which would give you normal attack speed while casting, with gear enhancing it increasing your attack speed while casting elemental magic, giving a reason to cast if not for the nuking damage alone. However I'm guessing FFXI game mechanics don't allow for something like that.

As it is, Dark Knight is probably never going to be a melee/mage hybrid like it's meant to be, they'd be better off making it a pet job at this stage. Take Dragoon as an example, assuming its wyvern isn't dying or dead (herp), they can toss out 100~400 damage elemental breaths every weapon skill and every one minute. Free of charge and with little to no effect on regular melee routine. That a much better system of dealing magic damage that what Dark Knight has currently, which is both lengthy in cast time and completely unsustainable due to its MP pool.
Though rather than making Dark Knight a pet job, it would probably be a lot more sensible to just give it a Seigan/Third Eye and Hasso style stance. The Hasso would enhance either regular melee attacks or a significant boost to dark magic spells and the Third Eye would effectively be Chainspell for a single elemental magic spell. Seigan enhancing that to make spells cost HP instead of MP and allow Third Eye to last multiple nukes. I'd be incline to make Hasso enhance dark magic, since it would provide a boost to Drain which would in tern benefit Seigan since that effectively converts your HP into MP. That would remove the lengthy cast time for casting nukes on Dark Knight while providing the benefit of added damage while also providing a bigger MP pool with which to cast from. There'd still be the issue of magic damage, but as it is it would be extra damage regardless so I doubt that would need addressing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I remember when you people called us Gimped RDMs then we came in strong and bitch slapped all of you so badly you cried to daddy SE to make your jobs better.

Good times.

That's pretty funny considering the only two jobs less popular than Sch are COR and PUP.

Good times indeed.

[Horadrim]

That's pretty funny considering the only two jobs less popular than Sch are COR and PUP.

Good times indeed.

That's what happens when you give a job 90% of two different jobs abilities, then bump those jobs up to 150%

SCH was a great job, until WHM became God mode (which they've been needing for a while, I'll admit) and BLM became the crowned prince of Yellow Proc. SCH is -still- a good job, but as I said before, why take a pistol when you can take a cannon? Why take a medical intern when you can take an award winning doctor? SCH's far from a "gimp RDM" -- They are too unrelated to even be comparable to one another and the shallow association "because they both can cast White and Black Magic, derp!" is beneath you. The jobs are completely different.

All of that aside, SCH is unpopular now because most career SCHs were BLMs or WHMs before the jobs release and gravitated to SCH because they finally had a mage job that could get consistent invites -- now they've moved back to their original jobs because both of them are distinctly more powerful and useful in Abyssea -- also known as the only thing anyone does in FFXI anymore.

Don't even pretend like it wouldn't be the exact same scenario for RDM if it didn't have its own unique options and uses -- a luxury SCH doesn't really have.


After scholars cried for months just like they are now that they are underpowered? editing some of this out, I wrote in anger at her reply. Suffice to say, Elexia's quote is why scholars have been a very hated job by a lot of other mages. So many of them seem to want only to bury other mages instead of co-existing in a balance.

How is that any different from -anyone- else in the forum?

Every thread I see is full of people clamoring to make their job the end-all, be-all of the game -- and that's exactly why no one ever gets what they want.

No one has any respect for balance or continuity -- the moment you talk about balance to BLMs they berate you for wanting SCH to be the greatest job ever even if all you want is for the job to have -something- useful to offer. You talk about balance to WHMs and they carry on about how they spent so much time underpowered -- which wasn't fair, but honestly, powering up a job by underpowering other jobs isn't the way to fix it.

Melees do the same exactly thing -- everyone here is carrying on about how they want their job to be god mode. The stupid thing is that everyone justifies this by saying everyone else wants to be God mode too, and then acting surprised and outraged when none of us get anything of any quality or use because the feedback channels are clogged with nonsense...

[Urteil]

No offense intended, but you're getting a little overbearing with the whole Drk thing. We get it, you think the job sucks and you want it to be War.

Can we move on?
You've said your piece, they've told you the direction they wish to take the job.

Do you send letters to George Lucas telling him how you think his movies should be? Do you go on forums saying how much their next movie sucks when it hasn't even been released yet?

While your passion for the job can be applauded, it's bordering on insanity. Dark Knight isn't as bad as you think it is. You should know this since you love it to the point of being fanatical. You've done all you can, just relax and hope for the best, while being open-minded to new ideas.

Or.. Play war, since the majority of the "fixes" presented by Drks amount to a relabeled Aggressor, Berserk, Blood Rage, War Cry, etc etc etc...

Or... At the very least, play some of the other content in the game and realize Dark Knight is STILL a powerhouse outside of Abyssea... (Abyssea isn't going to be the last and only content in the game. It's already getting dated with people maxing out on exp/merits/gear/weapons...)

Variety is fine, but you play Samurai and Warrior, the spot in variety you occupy is currently not crap.


I'd send letters and flares, and smoke signals in the sky.

George Lucas needs his smug ass face slapped too.

[StingRay104]

Drk is a Warrior that uses Dark Magic, and the magic aspect has been ignored by the player base.

Wow frost your ignorance is unbelievable. DRK's magic focus is like you said at first, dark magic, the update is for what? Elemental magic, which is a side effect of having arcane ties, DRK was never meant to have nukes above t2 and our mp pool can't support the thought of casting these t3's enough to make a magical buff worthwhile. Now if they were to offer us anything in the dark magic dept then you'd have a point but they didn't. Also DRK was always intended to be super hard hitting dd with no natural def, IE its a mirror of pld the Ultimate shield, thus DRK is the ultimate blade. War was intended to be the melee jack of all trades, but then SE decided to move forward with buffing its damage and just never stopped. DRKs lack of casting isn't the playerbases fault, its SE's. Our "nukes" deal way too low damage for the mp consumption, and our dark magic spells are ineffective (non stackable) with cruor buffs (not to mention the horribly fast decay). If SE would fix our dark magic spells as we have suggested time after time after time, then we would use them more. As I had the same argument with Leonlionheart, I'll inform you that I personally don't like war and there are others that dislike the job as well, so why should we have to go to a job we don't like when we like DRK? Point being that SE keeps mentioning balance and opened these forums for us to tell them our thoughts and discuss ways of improving the jobs to them, and you say why are all these people complaining when they should just play another job or hope SE does something to fix it. Well you can sit there and hope, I'm gonna give SE a piece of my mind and encourage others to do the same, and if you don't like it you can exit the conversation at any time.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

DEEEEVS!!!
The lv cap increase is close, give us more info!!! RIGHT NOW!!! *throws a slipper at the team*Only if the end of september is close!!! ; ;

[Camate]

Scholar - Part 3!

Here is yet another follow-up to all of your feedback related to scholar. :)
(Judging from the last rep post, it seems I angered Bayohne. Thankfully he is not here to punish me. Tomorrow is another day though... ><)

Magic


Make it possible to use Cure V.

In regards to support capability, we’re thinking more in the direction of adjustments that will differ from white mage.

Instead of just simply adding a high-tier Cure, we’re looking into making it so scholars can raise their performance further by enhancing the effects of stratagem use and regen-type magic. However, this doesn’t mean that we won’t be adding a high-tier Cure later down the line.


Make it so Reraise can be cast on other party members via AoE spell casting.

While this isn’t impossible, we would need to change the magic rules and it would take some time to do so. Additionally, we would need to consider the fact that other jobs would then be able to do this as well and adjustments would be necessary.


Add a spell that enhances the rate of magic criticals.

We would like to look into adding an effect to storm spells so that the magic critical rate will increase for the respective element when you are under their effects.


Add spells that decrease an enemy’s evasion and TP gain.

We are planning to add a higher tier Gravity as a spell to reduce an enemy’s evasion. We will also be looking into spells that give the effect of subtle blow.


Add spells that increase WS damage.

Though careful adjustments are necessary in regards to balance, we would like to look into this.


Similar to “Decoy” from FFXII, add a buff that turns you into a decoy and eliminates the effect when an enemy casts Dispel on you.

Balance wise, there is a chance this is possible if it only covers a single enhancement effect. It would probably have a weak effect against special abilities that remove multiple enhancement effects at once. In the case that this were made into an ability, when considering the stats, the recast timer would probably be quite long.


Add sphere-type spells.

For sphere effects, there would be no way of handling the opposite enfeebling effects, such as Slow versus Haste effects. This makes it an extremely powerful spell, so from a balance perspective it will not be easy to do.


Add a spell that makes it so a player’s pet can intimidate a monster.


This is something that seems like it would be better suited to explore with pet jobs than scholar.


Add powerful spells and abilities that can only be used by scholar.

You all have been posting a ton of ideas about this!

We are currently looking over all of them and considering each and every one. Please give us a bit of time so we can work on some plans.

[Raksha]

In regards to support capability, we’re thinking more in the direction of adjustments that will differ from white mage.

Instead of just simply adding a high-tier Cure, we’re looking into making it so scholars can raise their performance further by enhancing the effects of stratagem use and regen-type magic. However, this doesn’t mean that we won’t be adding a high-tier Cure later down the line.


Tank: I'm in the red! Medic!
SCH: I got this. (casts regen-type spell)
Tank: What was that?
SCH: Don't worry, you'll be good as new in five minutes.
*tank dies*





While this isn’t impossible, we would need to change the magic rules and it would take some time to do so. Additionally, we would need to consider the fact that other jobs would then be able to do this as well and adjustments would be necessary.


Giving WHM AoE RR3 would be a pleasant side effect. I say do it.





We would like to look into adding an effect to storm spells so that the magic critical rate will increase for the respective element when you are under their effects.


Nice, I guess, but Magic Crit never really impressed me because of the randomness.




We are planning to add a higher tier Gravity as a spell to reduce an enemy’s evasion. We will also be looking into spells that give the effect of subtle blow.


Gravity II and Auspice II? Surely you're not giving those to SCH?




{Spell that increases WS damage}
Though careful adjustments are necessary in regards to balance, we would like to look into this.


Not sure what the point is really, though I guess it kinda fits with Immanence.




{Decoy}
Balance wise, there is a chance this is possible if it only covers a single enhancement effect. It would probably have a weak effect against special abilities that remove multiple enhancement effects at once. In the case that this were made into an ability, when considering the stats, the recast timer would probably be quite long.


Don't think I understood this, are they asking about a buff that protects your other buffs from dispel? Sounds neat but situational.




For sphere effects, there would be no way of handling the opposite enfeebling effects, such as Slow versus Haste effects. This makes it an extremely powerful spell, so from a balance perspective it will not be easy to do.


Who the hell is asking for Sphere effects? And why isn't Sphere: haste exactly the same as regular haste?




{Pet stuff}
This is something that seems like it would be better suited to explore with pet jobs than scholar.


/facepalm




{SCH specific spells}
You all have been posting a ton of ideas about this!

We are currently looking over all of them and considering each and every one. Please give us a bit of time so we can work on some plans.

First time for everything I guess.

[Karbuncle]

I hear being a dick to the messenger always helps and makes them feel good.

You people have gotten 3 different updates, Visit other jobs forums who have gotten 0 and then come back and complain.

Some of the questions are derp but at least you're getting answers.

[Coldbrand]

I'd have to agree with the Scholars who think they should be the ones getting Ultima considering its non-elemental nature. Even if it has a huge recast, you need to put Ultima in this game. It's mandatory to meet the credentials of a true FF game.

[Siiri]

I hear being a dick to the messenger always helps and makes them feel good.

You people have gotten 3 different updates, Visit other jobs forums who have gotten 0 and then come back and complain.

Some of the questions are derp but at least you're getting answers.

Seriously, can any other job get some answers? It's been all scholar all the time. Not the community reps causing this, they just reporting what they given. We are in serious need of other updates though besides scholar.

[Tarumage]

I hear being a dick to the messenger always helps and makes them feel good.

You people have gotten 3 different updates, Visit other jobs forums who have gotten 0 and then come back and complain.

Some of the questions are derp but at least you're getting answers.

Getting responses to derp questions doesn't really help us out.

[Raksha]

I hear being a dick to the messenger always helps and makes them feel good.

You people have gotten 3 different updates, Visit other jobs forums who have gotten 0 and then come back and complain.

Some of the questions are derp but at least you're getting answers.

I wasnt being a dick to the messenger, I was critiquing the questions and answers. Where do you see me "Being a dick to the messengers"?


I assume the other jobs Q&A are cooking, but since I don't have any control over which question gets answered I can only respond to what's been released.

Like I said in the other thread, It's not my fault they wasted 3 posts worth of questions when they really only needed half of one.

[Airget]

<_< hope they actually take my idea on SCH into account it would actually give them unique support abilities that WHM and BLM don't have but I guess we'll wait and see what they decide to do with SCH lol. A 3 parter with SCH though honestly nothing really caught my eye overall with what they said, if they gave us more examples as to SCH specific spells that aren't 2hr related then perhaps they would've been more informative, but it does feel more like a wait and see response to each question lol.

Though I do agree I don't see SCH getting Cure V since WHM V VI is what makes them unique, you have to off-set unique abilities in certain ways.

SCH Idea (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11721-Spell-concept-Backfire)

I wasn't going to post the above link however I do wonder if they actually looked at it. IMO I think this would support "In regards to support capability, we’re thinking more in the direction of adjustments that will differ from white mage."

The basic premise behind this idea is the ability to cast spells that can turn enfeebles into status enhancements as well as grant immunity to said enfeeble til the spell wears off. The limit is basically you can only have one type of this enhancement up at a time so you can't be hit with Bad Breath and have a SCH cast all the "backfire" spells on you to pump up your capabilities.

Then on the Flip-side with Elemental magic I figured why not create a unique shield that can absorb a specific magic type of damage. Basically you use a strategm that turns your next elemental spell into a player target which "hits" them and the damage that it would've been is now the elemental magic shield you have. The limit with that is you can only have 1 magic shield active at a time so it would mainly be useful against mobs that stick with one elemental magic rather then those that use multiple elements.

But ya, I hope they give us an actual taste of spells that they have in mind cause it is true,if you just improve regen it really won't do much for SCH unless you can buff it up to actually be viable in an HNM situation.

[Karbuncle]

I wasnt being a dick to the messenger, I was critiquing the questions and answers. Where do you see me "Being a dick to the messengers"?

This part just seemed like you were implying they never ever give our responses to the devs:


First time for everything I guess.

In response to them "giving all the feedback" to the team. I could be reading you wrong, But it sounded like you accusing them of not doing their job. which is kinda being a dick, considering everything they do for us.



Getting responses to derp questions doesn't really help us out.

Like 2-3 of them were derp, out of about 20? Thats a good ratio considering the 0/0 that jobs like PLD, BRD, and WHM (to name a few) have gotten.... A lot of those questions hinted at new abilities/spells SCH would get...

I thought the info was good... left room to speculate but provided a lot.

not saying you can't facepalm about some of the very derp questions (Like say, RNG got one saying "I want 100% Rapid shot" which was WTF), just the comment i quoted above, if im reading it was, was incredibly unnecessary.

[Raksha]

This part just seemed like you were implying they never ever give our responses to the devs:



In response to them "giving all the feedback" to the team. I could be reading you wrong, But it sounded like you accusing them of not doing their job.


No, I was saying it's nice that the dev team is finally considering our suggestions, not that the mods weren't doing their jobs. I <3 the mods.

And seriously, maybe 5 of the questions over all 3 posts were things which people have actually wanted responses to.

I'll be the first person to say that SCH isn't all that bad off. And that PLD and others need way more work than we do.

[Karbuncle]

No, I was saying it's nice that the dev team is finally considering our suggestions, not that the mods weren't doing their jobs. I <3 the mods.

And seriously, maybe 5 of the questions over all 3 posts were things which I have actually wanted responses to.

I fixed the last part for you... They got the questions from somewhere so someone wanted them answered... If anyones to blame its the other languages/threads/forum-sections where they got these incredibly derp-rated questions from.

Either way, If thats the case, Obviously i retract my statement, When i read that last past it sounded like you were saying what i explained above.

I just see a lot of pointless bashing of Community reps around here, and that last one seemed off. Nothing more, continue your business then!

[Raksha]

I fixed the last part for you... They got the questions from somewhere so someone wanted them answered... If anyones to blame its the other languages/threads/forum-sections where they got these incredibly derp-rated questions from.

Either way, If thats the case, Obviously i retract my statement, When i read that last past it sounded like you were saying what i explained above.

I just see a lot of pointless bashing of Community reps around here, and that last one seemed off. Nothing more, continue your business then!



Sasaraixx gave us the heads up when the JP version was posted and even the JP were confused by the questions:



And as for the questions chosen, I don't know where they come from. The reactions from some of the JP posters were exactly the same. Namely, "Um . . .?"


So maybe it's the French and German forums?

P.S. Didn't you hear? I speak for all SCHs. >_> (kidding) (EDIT: to expound on this, There aren't a lot of posts in the SCH forum, and I'm pretty confident I've read them all, so when I say these are questions that no one cares about I'm not speaking hyperbolically)

EDIT: I notice there's a 2nd DRK post also.

[Cymmina]

Seriously, can any other job get some answers? It's been all scholar all the time. Not the community reps causing this, they just reporting what they given. We are in serious need of other updates though besides scholar.

And what jobs need "answers" exactly? Jobs that are already at the top of the totem pole? The jobs that are getting attention currently are the ones that are underpowered and in need of attention (PUP, RNG, DRK, SMN, SAM, and THF are some of the other jobs I've seen addressed). Not that it matters since most of the "answers" we're seeing are noncommittal responses to lolquestions (not blaming the reps, since they're just messengers).

I'm not expecting a pony here, but I haven't seen anything presented for SCH that would make them in any way desirable over comparable jobs. Other support classes got more powerful unique spells/abilities than SCH got over the last 15 levels. Mana Wall, Mana Cede, Earthen Armor, Scherzo, Cure VI, Divine Caress, Saboteur, Refresh II. Compare that to Animus Augeo/Minuo, Adloquium, and Perpetuance and I think you will agree that we've been been getting the short end of the stick. The only thing "unique" we've received that's of value since we broke 75 is Immanence, and it's a big "who cares?" Melee DDs are just plain better sources of damage and a lot more durable.

[Merton9999]

@SCH

Some encouraging general words about unique spells. As far as the specific info I'm just as confused as Raksha. I don't know where these requests are coming from, except the first one of course.

Cure V
I'm the first to vote for a Cure V equivalent unique to SCH in the best case scenario, but my concern at this point is over the testing window necessary to make it useful. SCH spent the last 15 levels getting underpowered unique spells and the only excuse I could make was that the potency was just being tested. Honestly, I'd rather they just added Cure V and got it over with than get stuck with another lemon.

If this Regen spell came with a Modus Veritas type ability that could be used frequently (1 minute) on party members to enhance potency and decrease duration of tick-based buffs (regain, refresh, regen, and make animus like this too), I'd be excited for a Regen V-X or whatever. Important: this version of MV shouldn't be allowed to miss >.>

Gravity and Auspice II
Was this accidentally copied from RDM and WHM? I seriously doubt these would appear on SCH only.

Decoy
This is really confusing. First, FFXII's Decoy was just someone else casting provoke on you. It didn't have anything to do with redirecting and canceling dispel moves. If that's what it does in XI though, it actually sounds pretty nice.

Storms and Magic Crit
Yes please, more use for storms, but I don't like the randomness in this suggestion either. It's still way too little compared to what I expected out of SCH's unique spell line by 99.

A spell that makes it so a player's pet can intimidate a monster
Although thankfully neither I nor anyone else on the English boards has ever mentioned this, I am still embarrassed by it.

[thenewzero]

Tank: I'm in the red! Medic!
SCH: I got this. (casts regen-type spell)
Tank: What was that?
SCH: Don't worry, you'll be good as new in five minutes.
*tank dies*


While I can see where you're coming from with this, I like the possibility of them looking into ways to make us better healers without just copy/pasting WHM abilities. I love playing healers in MMOs, but I absolutely *hate* how WHM plays. I only leveled it because...well, no one else can heal anything of value right now besides WHM. On the other hand, I love how SCH plays. If we got something else that gave us a further unique feel while closing the vast gap between SCH healing and WHM healing, then I'm all for it. I've always throught SCH should get better Regen spells than WHM, given that we're more of a 'buffing' type of class, and our exclusive damage spells are 'over time' effects like Regen. Cure V wouldn't really enhance the playstyle of SCH. You'd just replace one of your current Cures with it. It's just a raw throughput increase.

Now, of course, if it was as bad as Adloquium ended up, I don't blame you for feeling like that. It would have to be noticeably better than the Regen that WHM got to really mean anything. But then they did say they are considering giving SCH this new ability *and* Cure V.

P.S. - A Modus Veritas style JA (or better yet, a spell affected by Accession) that affected Regen spells would be pretty cool, as a previous poster mentioned. But like they said, just don't let it miss. >_>

[Raksha]

While I can see where you're coming from with this, I like the possibility of them looking into ways to make us better healers without just copy/pasting WHM abilities. I love playing healers in MMOs, but I absolutely *hate* how WHM plays. I only leveled it because...well, no one else can heal anything of value right now besides WHM. On the other hand, I love how SCH plays. If we got something else that gave us a further unique feel while closing the vast gap between SCH healing and WHM healing, then I'm all for it. I've always throught SCH should get better Regen spells than WHM, given that we're more of a 'buffing' type of class, and our exclusive damage spells are 'over time' effects like Regen. Cure V wouldn't really enhance the playstyle of SCH. You'd just replace one of your current Cures with it. It's just a raw throughput increase.

Now, of course, if it was as bad as Adloquium ended up, I don't blame you for feeling like that. It would have to be noticeably better than the Regen that WHM got to really mean anything. But then they did say they are considering giving SCH this new ability *and* Cure V.

P.S. - A Modus Veritas style JA (or better yet, a spell affected by Accession) that affected Regen spells would be pretty cool, as a previous poster mentioned. But like they said, just don't let it miss. >_>

Hmmmm how did you manage to post without selecting your character to show in your profile?

Intriguing

[Sasaraixx]

Seriously, can any other job get some answers? It's been all scholar all the time. Not the community reps causing this, they just reporting what they given. We are in serious need of other updates though besides scholar.

You really like to complain about SCH don't you? If you looked at other forums, you would know that every day there was a SCH post, there were posts for other jobs as well (SAM, RNG, DRK) and that doesn't include jobs that received some info before SCH.

[Karbuncle]

You really like to complain about SCH don't you? If you looked at other forums, you would know that every day there was a SCH post, there were posts for other jobs as well (SAM, RNG, DRK) and that doesn't include jobs that received some info before SCH.

Think his complaint is more towards that SCH has 3, While there are still a good chunk of jobs that have no general updates.

WAR
MNK
RDM
WHM
BLM
PLD
BST
BRD
NIN
DRG
BLU
COR

Some of those jobs don't really have a lot of complaints (Then again i didnt think SCH was complaining much either :X) The Reps will get to other jobs when they have the info. I think waiting it out is good. This is by and far better than the old days!

[Alhanelem]

Anything that makes scholar more unique is good in my book. I don't want to just mirror what WHMs and BLMs do.

[Kari]

Scholar - Part 3!

Here is yet another follow-up to all of your feedback related to scholar. :)
(Judging from the last rep post, it seems I angered Bayohne. Thankfully he is not here to punish me. Tomorrow is another day though... ><)

Part of me is annoyed that SCH has gotten 3 insights towards the Manifesto, but DNC hasn't even gotten a tiny hint of information. =/
The other part of me isn't worried though, because most of the questions being answered are really bad.
Out of the 3 SCH posts alone, maybe 3 or 4 questions were worth answering. >_>

[Soundwave]

Part 3, geeze...:p

[noodles355]

Hey Camate, how come the Dev team decided to give you infomation to make three posts directed to scholars, yet you made one thief post? Scholar have recieved detailed and multiple answers to questions, sort of like a Q&A forum, whereas thief got one post, met with 95% negative criticism, hundreds of responses, and yet got no follow up at all?

I hope the silence on Thief is because the dev team was so shocked about how badly their ideas went down that they have decided to lock themselves away and try again from scratch. This silence better be because they are afraid of releasing anything else to the thief community untill they think they have gotten it right.

[Seha]

/sigh
This jelly behaviour that is going on lately is becoming so silly...

[Urteil]

Sasaraixx gave us the heads up when the JP version was posted and even the JP were confused by the questions:



So maybe it's the French and German forums?

P.S. Didn't you hear? I speak for all SCHs. >_> (kidding) (EDIT: to expound on this, There aren't a lot of posts in the SCH forum, and I'm pretty confident I've read them all, so when I say these are questions that no one cares about I'm not speaking hyperbolically)

EDIT: I notice there's a 2nd DRK post also.


Counting the first DRK post as a post worth mention or even counting it is a travesty!

Thats like saying,

"As far as SCH is concerned you are masters of Martial theories with the power of both Black Magic and White Magic at your command, this is our vision!"

That was the first DRK post.

[Quetzacoatl]

Actually its three, and I'd be #1.

Hello #2 and #3, nice to meet you.

I'm #0.

You strike me as pretentious and annoying for some reason.

Good day to you.

[Urteil]

I'm #0.

You strike me as pretentious and annoying for some reason.

Good day to you.

I'm glad we're both fully aware of your position!

The ability to express such accurate judgement of low self worth and that level of humility is not something that most people possess, I certainly don't.

Let alone the ability to admit it publicly, is impressive!




Sadly, I don't envy you.
Have a wonderful life.

[Sasaraixx]

Think his complaint is more towards that SCH has 3, While there are still a good chunk of jobs that have no general updates.

WAR
MNK
RDM
WHM
BLM
PLD
BST
BRD
NIN
DRG
BLU
COR

Some of those jobs don't really have a lot of complaints (Then again i didnt think SCH was complaining much either :X) The Reps will get to other jobs when they have the info. I think waiting it out is good. This is by and far better than the old days!

There really isn't a viable complaint. Every job will be addressed. People just have no patience. And SCH has *a lot* of issues that need to be addressed. There are a few other jobs in the same boat and I'm sure that the dev team will get back to them. The process takes time.

And also, Part 1 of the SMN notes was just posted. I'll translate it this evening if it hasn't been posted by one of the English devs. I've spent the whole morning translating for work and my eyes are ready to fall out. :(

[Karbuncle]

There really isn't a viable complaint

I agree, was just trying to explain where he was coming from.

I know all we have to do is wait, and they'll get to us!

[Horadrim]

Think his complaint is more towards that SCH has 3, While there are still a good chunk of jobs that have no general updates.

WAR
MNK
RDM
WHM
BLM
PLD
BST
BRD
NIN
DRG
BLU
COR

Some of those jobs don't really have a lot of complaints (Then again i didnt think SCH was complaining much either :X) The Reps will get to other jobs when they have the info. I think waiting it out is good. This is by and far better than the old days!

While I would like to see EVERY job get good feedback and information, there's a simple explanation for this, and you can deduce it yourself.

Get online and /sea all each of the jobs listed above. All of the bolded jobs will have at LEAST twice the numbers of the unbolded jobs -- and they will likely be 10x the number of SCH/PUP/COR.

SCH, PUP and DRG have been getting replies lately because they are the bottom of the barrel. I seldom see more than 30 SCHs online at any time, barely 50 PUPs, and definitely less than 100 DRGs. Most other jobs blow those numbers out of the water because they still have -some- use.

I can't say anything about why COR hasn't gotten any feedback though -- First and foremost they sure as heck need to get higher level bullets from NPCs... Abyssea NPCs need to start selling pouches for cruor or something. (my brother just finished COR, so I've been trying to help him find stuff higher than level 22 with decent availability.)


I agree, was just trying to explain where he was coming from.

I know all we have to do is wait, and they'll get to us!

Might just be me, but I'd rather see the info in the update notes than on the forums.

[Sasaraixx]

Edit to myself - The SMN post wasn't too complicated so I posted a brief summary in the SMN Manifesto thread.

[Sasaraixx]

I agree, was just trying to explain where he was coming from.

I know all we have to do is wait, and they'll get to us!

It's all good :)

[Hayward]

I've only one thing to say to all the Thieves bellyaching throughout this thread:

Shut up.

You have no legitimate grievance towards S-E in their vision for Thief. You've no case for wanting absurd abilities just so you can brag about outparsing heavy-damage jobs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Thief's status as a utility melee job other than it doesn't fit into the mindset of a zerg-obsessed playerbase that only looks at parser stats and nothing else.

[Laphine]

How about the contradiction of SE seeing us as pickpockets but doing nothing to fix steal-like abilities? And really, we never asked to be the best DDs, but being defined as utility melee job with tools that do not work makes no sense at all.

[Gaiben]

First off I'd like to note the Dev team's recent vagueness. Its not giving me full answer but keeps me reading :P


Scholar - Part 3!

In regards to support capability, we’re thinking more in the direction of adjustments that will differ from white mage.

Instead of just simply adding a high-tier Cure, we’re looking into making it so scholars can raise their performance further by enhancing the effects of stratagem use and regen-type magic. However, this doesn’t mean that we won’t be adding a high-tier Cure later down the line.


And my main point, I don't see how these healing enhancements make sense. On the range of Regen spells WHM is still the best. Not only do they exclusively have the best Regen IV, BUT they have merits to increase all of them. (Gear wise SCH and WHM are about equal) With the waiting on giving SCH Cure V just seems a bit mean. WHM has TWO tiers of Cure spells ahead of everyone else. On top of the fact that gear wise a SCH can't hit Cure Potency cap without atmas.

I have on multiple occasions laughed boldly at my better Cure Potency build on my SCH compared to some of my lazier WHM friends getting 530+ Cure IV over their 490ish. Then they giggle at me throwing out a Cure V for 650ish and a Cure VI for over 1k. Even with rapture, doubling my cost and recast, on my Cure IV I'm hitting about as good as a well geared cure V.

There is no doubt that WHM is stupid superior in all aspects of curing to ANYONE even if you gave SCH (and/or RDM) Cure V. However to make SCH the best COT (Curing Over Time) you would need to unkindly strip WHM of a page 1 merit and do something about their already placed unique spell.

My only conclusion that makes remote sense but still slightly befuddles me is a Cure Helix that starts with a 200-300 healing blast that would heal that same about ever 10 seconds. Which lacks the logic that then the Cure Helix would heal significantly more then the damage of a normal Helix spell. (though the thought of using Modus Verdus on an ally does make me giggle).

Not trying to complain, but just to avoid Cure V, your really hurting my head.

[Karbuncle]

How about the contradiction of SE seeing us as pickpockets but doing nothing to fix steal-like abilities? And really, we never asked to be the best DDs, but being defined as utility melee job with tools that do not work makes no sense at all.

Don't sink to his level please. Let him cry and stamp his feet alone. He obvious has no clue what THFs are asking for based on his post. He just wants to complain about complaining, obviously looking to start a fight.

[Quetzacoatl]

I'm glad we're both fully aware of your position!

The ability to express such accurate judgement of low self worth and that level of humility is not something that most people possess, I certainly don't.

Let alone the ability to admit it publicly, is impressive!




Sadly, I don't envy you.
Have a wonderful life.

lmao, I kid.

[Alaik]

Don't sink to his level please. Let him cry and stamp his feet alone. He obvious has no clue what THFs are asking for based on his post. He just wants to complain about complaining, obviously looking to start a fight.


Yeah, there's one of two options: he is really THAT dumb, after reading this. Or he's just an asshole trying to upset people. Either way, not worth the 2 calories it would take to type a rebuttal.

[Tarumage]

Hey Camate, how come the Dev team decided to give you infomation to make three posts directed to scholars, yet you made one thief post? Scholar have recieved detailed and multiple answers to questions, sort of like a Q&A forum, whereas thief got one post, met with 95% negative criticism, hundreds of responses, and yet got no follow up at all?

I hope the silence on Thief is because the dev team was so shocked about how badly their ideas went down that they have decided to lock themselves away and try again from scratch. This silence better be because they are afraid of releasing anything else to the thief community untill they think they have gotten it right.

Lol @ thf's complaining. When was the last time you saw a scholar able to perform it's job effectively in Abyssea? My scholar is one of my best geared jobs aside from pup and my naked 84 whm can heal better. That says problem to me. That's why scholar's have been getting a lot of attention.

[Sparthos]

We still talking about Abyssea? How about balancing for the Voidwatch ahead?

Abyssea is already formulaic. You bring the proc jobs, WHM, TH and you're good to clear all of the content. SCH will never fit in because the class lacks all the procs BLM does.

Changing it now would do nothing but throw balance off outside Abyssea where the game is going.

SCH is much more balanced outside than it is right now when discussing Abyssea. Cure IV is viable, Stratagems actually mean something and MP conservation becomes an issue again among other things.

The class needs help with unique spells to call its own (im a fan of a Cure 4.5 variant for RDM and SCH) but balancing for Abyssea is a terrible idea. Things are just too overpowered in there to to be tailoring buffs for certain classes.

[Alaik]

People don't seem to understand that though, Sparthos.

[Tarumage]

I used abyssea as a comparison. THF's are very viable in all endgame content today. There really is no reason for them to complain.

[Korpg]

People don't seem to understand that though, Sparthos.

No, people understand, they just like to complain about nothing usually.

[Seha]

GUYS WARRIORS HAVEN'T HAD A RESPONSE YET!!! D:

[Korpg]

GUYS WARRIORS HAVEN'T HAD A RESPONSE YET!!! D:

That's because they are saving the best for last.

[Sparthos]

That's because they are saving the best for last.

Surely you mean Monk.

[Korpg]

Surely you mean Monk.

If you want to kid yourself, then yeah, they are saving MNK for last.

[Karbuncle]

I used abyssea as a comparison. THF's are very viable in all endgame content today. There really is no reason for them to complain.

That really is a very ignorant thing to say. "I think its fine so they dont need something".

The Job is not fine, every Bandwagon crybaby will go on and on about TH as an excuse to keep the job Mediocre, But i don't feel thats viable at all. We're grateful of it, But like every job, We think we deserve some other role in a party.

Even if that means we're set to control enmity.

Some people are just entirely too thick headed to see that multiple jobs need updating, and instead of understanding how one job is not perfect, they just complain about how bad their own job is and how no one else deserves anything until their job gets what they want first.

Does that apply to you? I don't know. But Truthfully outside of a few bad eggs, Most THFs are asking for nothing more than a more defined role in endgame that goes beyond Treasure hunter, Which isn't asking for a lot.

At this risk of babbling on further, I again direct you here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11492-Screwed-again-Proposed-THF-job-adjustments.

The first ~couple pages are more whining, Later on people seem to level out.Most of us anyway. You can see some real concerns the THFs have.

[Quetzacoatl]

I used abyssea as a comparison. THF's are very viable in all endgame content today. There really is no reason for them to complain.

THF is good for Limbus, Einherjar, KSNM, and Zerging?

I, sir, give you a big, fat WAT. Trust me, I have THF. I would never use it for those events.

[Tarumage]

THF is good for Limbus, Einherjar, KSNM, and Zerging?

I, sir, give you a big, fat WAT. Trust me, I have THF. I would never use it for those events.

I should have said current end game activities.

[Sparthos]

So Abyssea.

[Tarumage]

So Abyssea.

New Dynamis and Voidwatch. Oh and WoE.

[Karbuncle]

New Dynamis

TH whores, which is fine and dandy really, but yah, have you read that thread yet >_>?


and Voidwatch

We're worthless in voidwatch, Even Treasure Hunter is worthless in voidwatch. It doesn't do anything you can't already do via building lights normally.

to a good group its a wasted spot.


Oh and WoE.

For sac pulling >_>?

[Tarumage]

All I'm trying to point out is that THF's aren't at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to jobs that are currently needed and desired.

I'm sure you guys have your issues but at the end of the day it seems that THF's are in a much better position viability wise.

[Karbuncle]

All I'm trying to point out is that THF's aren't at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to jobs that are currently needed and desired.

I'm sure you guys have your issues but at the end of the day it seems that THF's are in a much better position viability wise.

I agree we're definitely not bottom of the barrel. I also agree other jobs need a lot of adjustments. I also agree THF is pretty well off with TH!

Truthfully i dont remember how this entire thing began. Either way, Lots of jobs need adjustments.

[Tarumage]

I agree we're definitely not bottom of the barrel. I also agree other jobs need a lot of adjustments. I also agree THF is pretty well off with TH!

Truthfully i dont remember how this entire thing began. Either way, Lots of jobs need adjustments.

Me either. I apologize if I came off curt.

[Alaik]

New Dynamis and Voidwatch. Oh and WoE.

9/10 would read again. I know THFs are always the best at voidwatch, period.

Best being sarcasm, of course. And no, they're not even good at it.

[Tarage]

SE, please, just hear me out. There are three very easy fixes that can be made to pet AI that can solve so much.

1. Avatars should not auto-attack sleeping mobs.
2. Avatars should be able to be told what to attack from a further distance.
3. When an Avatar uses a BP on a mob and it does before the BP can go off, reset the BP timer.

That's all I'm asking.

[Korpg]

SE, please, just hear me out. There are three very easy fixes that can be made to pet AI that can solve so much.

1. Avatars should not auto-attack sleeping mobs.

That's all I'm asking.

This again? Didn't people tell you why this particular idea would hurt SMNs the most? Why not instead of asking SE to take the ability to kite away from SMN....oh wait, you just did.

There is a very simple solution, one that I have told you many times and you seem to ignore many times over as to what you can do to keep the avatars from hitting sleeping mobs: Don't get on the top of the enmity list. Or are you going to say that SMN is a support job only again?

[Camate]

Samurai - Round 2

As we couldn’t get responses to all of the questions and feedback about samurai adjustments, here are the ones that we couldn’t fit in the first post.


Get rid of the spell casting penalty while under the effects of Hasso/Seigan.

As a result of exploring this from many angles, we need to put off the elimination of this penalty. Since the basic stats of Hasso/Seigan are really high, we plan on looking into enhancing the convenience of these abilities through merit points and/or equipment, more than heading in a direction where we would support more spells casting. Due to the fact that these are abilities with long effect durations, please understand that you can’t really compare these abilities side-by-side to the abilities that elicit a strong effect but have a short duration/special requirements.


Make it so the effect of Third Eye doesn’t get stripped by AoE attacks.

We balanced Third Eye to be special for single target attacks allowing the possibility to evade single target abilities/attacks multiple times and have rendered it powerless against AoE attacks.


Increase the damage of weapon skills against high level enemies.

In the case of weapon skills that do not have “damage varies with TP” or “ignores enemy’s defense, amount ignored varies with TP” it has become necessary to enhance the attack power or adjust them in some way so it they deal steady damage. Tachi: Yukikaze, Tachi: Gekko, and Tachi: Kasha are weapon skills that ignore defense, thus it has become easier to deal steady damage with them compared to other weapon skills.

In the case of monsters that have damage resistance, all jobs are in the same boat, so we will deal with this theme separately.


Increase skillchain damage.

The potential skill chain damage is not low for samurais that use the job ability “Sengikori” paired with the skill chain bonus job trait, however, we are aware that you can’t get the most out of these stats against high level monsters since skillchain damage is easily resisted, so we plan on fixing this aspect.


Add weapon skills with Additional Effect: Amnesia and Additional Effect: Terror.

Through constant weapon skills you would be able to overwrite the effect and essentially lock an enemy completely, so we are thinking it would be necessary to explore an alternative route such as an ability with a recast timer or maybe even just tone down the effect a bit.


Add a job trait or ability that gives conserve TP/save TP and/or regain.

Using weapon skills and relying on TP is the best part and core aspect of samurai. This being said we will be looking into a variety of things.


I want to dual wield a great katana and a katana.

This is an interesting idea, but there would be a great deal to look into, almost as much as if we were to add another job, so implementing this right now would be difficult.

It might be possible to add samurai to the jobs able to wield katanas as well as add native katana skill to samurais, but if we don't add any advantages for samurai there wouldn’t be a strong effect.


What about adding a “Iai” ability (the act of drawing your sword in quick motion)?

We will take this into consideration for ability ideas!

[Juxtaposition]

I want to dual wield a great katana and a katana.

Hahah who asks for this kind of stuff.

[Ryozen]

[B]It might be possible to increase the amount of katanas that are equipable or increase the katana skill, but if we don't add any advantages for samurai there wouldn’t be a strong effect.

Increase the number of SAM-equippable katanas and the native SAM katana skill from zero? Currently Ninja is the only job that has any native skill.

[Draylo]

Hahah who asks for this kind of stuff.


I know :/ terrible people lol

[Camate]

Increase the number of SAM-equippable katanas and the native SAM katana skill from zero? Currently Ninja is the only job that has any native skill.

We just confirmed that there was a mistake in the original Japanese text and edited the English to reflect the changes.

[Seriha]

As a result of exploring this from many angles, we need to put off the elimination of this penalty. Since the basic stats of Hasso/Seigan are really high, we plan on looking into enhancing the convenience of these abilities through merit points and/or equipment, more than heading in a direction where we would support more spells casting. Due to the fact that these are abilities with long effect durations, please understand that you can’t really compare these abilities side-by-side to the abilities that elicit a strong effect but have a short duration/special requirements.

The only reason I could see why the Slow Cast penalty was applied to Hasso/Seigan was because of Utsusemi and how Seigan/Third Eye can lead to some good damage mitigation. Changing it so it only applies to Ninjutsu would make many DRK/SAMs happy.

[Tarage]

This again? Didn't people tell you why this particular idea would hurt SMNs the most? Why not instead of asking SE to take the ability to kite away from SMN....oh wait, you just did.

There is a very simple solution, one that I have told you many times and you seem to ignore many times over as to what you can do to keep the avatars from hitting sleeping mobs: Don't get on the top of the enmity list. Or are you going to say that SMN is a support job only again?

I'll make this VERY simple for you since you ignore every claim I make.

In what situation do you want an avatar auto attacking a sleeping mob?

I'll say it again, bolding the important words.

In what situation do you want an avatar auto attacking a sleeping mob?

If you can answer that question with a sane and rational answer, I will drop it. Otherwise, I want you to drop your objections. Understand?

[Korpg]

I'll make this VERY simple for you since you ignore every claim I make.

In what situation do you want an avatar auto attacking a sleeping mob?

I'll say it again, bolding the important words.

In what situation do you want an avatar auto attacking a sleeping mob?

If you can answer that question with a sane and rational answer, I will drop it. Otherwise, I want you to drop your objections. Understand?

When you are about to attack the mob.

Let me ask you this: Why can you not let the WHM heal the BLMs? Why do you feel like you need to cure bomb the BLMs so your avatar can auto-attack the mobs?

[Coldbrand]

pft hahahaha more responses to the people who got the best patch notes alongside WAR and they're still responding to insane requests for more

[Tarage]

When you are about to attack the mob.

Let me ask you this: Why can you not let the WHM heal the BLMs? Why do you feel like you need to cure bomb the BLMs so your avatar can auto-attack the mobs?

That isn't a valid answer. That isn't an answer at all. If the mob is asleep and you are about to attack it, then you use assault. Or you hit it, it wakes up and tries to attack you, and then your avatar auto attacks the NOT ASLEEP mob.

I refuse to answer any more of your questions because you didn't answer mine.

Again, in what situation do you want your avatar to auto attack a sleeping mob?

And no, auto attack does not mean attacking through the assault command. Auto attacking means attacking the mob without any input from the player.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I could be wrong but I don't believe they can check if the mob is sleeping (heck, automatons for instance can't distinguish if the mob has spells) and simply checks whether or not a monster is aggressive to you or not.

[Gaiben]

It might be possible to add samurai to the jobs able to wield katanas as well as add native katana skill to samurais, but if we don't add any advantages for samurai there wouldn’t be a strong effect.


Yes, please. & Thank you. I've thought for a very long time it was odd that katana was exclusive to one job. While your at adding that could you make it so SAM or another job could WS with Archery so Ranger doesn't have a monopoly on it?


On a slightly unrelated note I for some reason envisioned the potential creation of Viking having the ability to dual wield using two-handed weapons. Thus the possibility of dual wielding a Great Katana and Katana as a SAM/VKG. Or even more fun a DRK/VKG with a Scythe and Kclub :x Granted now is not the time for new jobs, as much as I love dreaming about them. (GO GEOMANCER!)

[Puck]

I want to dual wield a great katana and a katana.

Hahah who asks for this kind of stuff.

Uh... this guy, who wants SAM to dual wield GREAT katanas:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11171-New-Job-Trait-for-Samurai.-Bushido-Dual-Wielding-Great-Katanas. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11171-New-Job-Trait-for-Samurai.-Bushido-Dual-Wielding-Great-Katanas.?highlight=great+katana)
While we're at it let's give SAM a job trait that triples their HP, STR, and Attack, gives 100% haste effect, gives them 100% TP all the time, and gives them the ability to fly making them unable to be hit by mobs but they can still hit mobs at the same time by throwing their dual great katanas like boomerangs. Also, make them glow and make their great katanas on fire.