Ther case for -Prep as related to gear ect

[Neonii]

I feel that every topic on smn forums get taken over by the argument about gear and minus prep. This subject takes over ever topic and the same arguments get re-hashed to the point of overkill. Once the topics are derailed the -prep talk goes on for pages and pages. As a player who has already read those arguments I'm making a topic to address this here. For the sake of my sanity please have your arguments here and allow us with other interest to keep our topics on subject.

[Razushu]

Quoted from here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11246-A-Summoners-Bag-of-tricks?p=143878&viewfull=1#post143878 to hopefully prevent further derailment


Yes, that Perp set required a Magain staff. without any staff, I would still be gaining 1mp/tick with a normal avatar out. My perp set (for Garuda) is as follows:
Magian+2/Vox Grip/H.Bomb
Caller's Horn+2/Caller's Pendant/Aug'd Ruby Earring/Moonshade
Caller's Doublet +2/Caller's Bracers +2/Evoker's Ring/Fervor Ring
Astute Cape/Caller's Sash/Stearc Subligar/Caller's Pigaches +2
Note: Nashira Gages aren't needed since I'm capping Perp anyway.

Now, despite the fact that I don't pay anywhere near enough attention to those forums, I'll add my 2 cents on the Hvergelmir discussion. Yes, I have one.
With a decent Myrkr build outside Abyssea, I'll gain around 400 mp from Myrkr. In a situation where it is feasible to melee, it is by far more MP efficient then Magians staves, since my MP pool won't drop below 1000, even if I buff with my avatar as well. However, of course most situations (say Endgame or kited kills) it would be unfeasible to melee. With a Magian staff and the above set, my MP efficiency is decent, however I would eventually run out of MP, even with Refresh and Convert.

How long does it take you to run out of MP or are you only just assuming you would? I only get +2 per tick back with Garuda and I can't use up all my MP. I get the guts of 900MP back every 5 minutes from gear refresh, sublimation and elemental siphon after I negate perp cost.

[Korpg]

MP is not an issue anymore, even if you are a melee SMN assuming that you have the emp staff.

Even killing NMs outside of Abyssea, my MP never goes below half. That is without Elemental Siphon.

The difference between a melee SMN and a regular SMN is risk. You have to ask yourself if the risk of killing XX mob faster is worth it or plausable (depending on the NM, melee-SMNs can't win while the regular SMN doesn't even break a sweat).

[Arciel]

With a perp negating gear set that can give you 2+ refresh/tic, it becomes a lot harder to run out of MP, but this also depends on various factors..

1) rate at which you rage BP.
2) rate at which you ward BP.
3) whether you siphon whenever given the opportunity
4) how often you use mana cede

The more often you do 1, 2 & 4, and the less often you do 3, the higher the strain you put on your MP pool.
Done well, this should not be much of an issue, but would likely still lead to MP issues if you're doing non-stop battles. In other words, the drain is only felt in the long run. This is assuming you're not getting non-gear sources of refresh from other players or /rdm. If you're using /rdm then this shouldnt be a problem at all.

edit: This said, players should be mindful not to overgear on perp cost reduction, because theres so much of it now.

Remember that at lv90, the maximum perp cost reduction (not factoring in refresh) you can ever make use of is 9 / 11 / 13 / 18 (carby / fenrir / celestial / spirits) and most people don't care about spirits.. so the usual number is 13. If you already have that, switch to refresh gear. and if you can go with the same amount of refresh in the same slot.. that would be more beneficial

[Razushu]

With a perp negating gear set that can give you 2+ refresh/tic, it becomes a lot harder to run out of MP, but this also depends on various factors..

1) rate at which you rage BP.
2) rate at which you ward BP.
3) whether you siphon whenever given the opportunity
4) how often you use mana cede

The more often you do 1, 2 & 4, and the less often you do 3, the higher the strain you put on your MP pool.
Done well, this should not be much of an issue, but would likely still lead to MP issues if you're doing non-stop battles. In other words, the drain is only felt in the long run. This is assuming you're not getting non-gear sources of refresh from other players or /rdm. If you're using /rdm then this shouldnt be a problem at all.

edit: This said, players should be mindful not to overgear on perp cost reduction, because theres so much of it now.

Remember that at lv90, the maximum perp cost reduction (not factoring in refresh) you can ever make use of is 9 / 11 / 13 / 18 (carby / fenrir / celestial / spirits) and most people don't care about spirits.. so the usual number is 13. If you already have that, switch to refresh gear. and if you can go with the same amount of refresh in the same slot.. that would be more beneficial

Siphon including bringing out your avatar again takes at most 20 secs every 5 minutes, so unless it's a really busy day your having on SMN 1,2 & 4 shouldn't really effect 3

[Korpg]

Siphon including bringing out your avatar again takes at most 20 secs every 5 minutes, so unless it's a really busy day your having on SMN 1,2 & 4 shouldn't really effect 3

Except kite fights though. You would have to run almost triple distance from usual if you need to siphon

[Razushu]

Except kite fights though. You would have to run almost triple distance from usual if you need to siphon

Thats exactly what I do, if I even need to siphon in a kite fight anymore. I think last time I did this was against the Lizard Trap NM in Aydeewa Subterrane at 75 cap or something like that.

[Inafking]

Including AF3 and magain staffs, they have added a lot of gear for this. So it's clear Square's position is, "The gear is out there. Now go level something else and work for it, bitch!!"

[Dallas]

AF2 body is a far superior full-time gear than AF3. For melee, Goliard is far superior to AF3.

You all wear AF3 body, therefor you all have serious MP issues. The other stats on AF3 body are macro only.

Useless thread. I'm not returning, as there is nothing to be gained by mastering "stack -perp." I'm sure Arciel will be glad to share with everyone how pimp KI SMN were with their "stack hmp" build. Doing jack is an art form. Argue amonst yourselves.

[Razushu]

AF2 body is a far superior full-time gear than AF3. For melee, Goliard is far superior to AF3.

You all wear AF3 body, therefor you all have serious MP issues. The other stats on AF3 body are macro only.

Useless thread. I'm not returning, as there is nothing to be gained by mastering "stack -perp." I'm sure Arciel will be glad to share with everyone how pimp KI SMN were with their "stack hmp" build. Doing jack is an art form. Argue amonst yourselves.

Good you're a gimp melee troll. IIRC you said you don't even have Goliard, not that it's of any use but lol worthy melee though. I think you'll find there's longevity to be gained from a -perp set, without the constant need for raises too. Nobody does jack except leecher's in this game( and I'd call a fake melee constantly weakened a leech here). If you can at all use SMN you're just as busy as everyone else in the party. Your SMN is useful 1/10th of the time and none of its the big stuff at that mainly exp mobs, my SMN can find a use just about anywhere.

[Arciel]

lol suddenly the town retard thinks he knows how I play. I don't even have a hmp build.

AF2 is also definitely not superior to AF3 body as far as bp acc and damage go.
the only reason you'd use AF2 over AF3 is for perp if you're also using AF3 bracers, because -2 perp (4/2) is less than -3.

[Korpg]

AF2 body is a far superior full-time gear than AF3.

You heard it here folks!

MP+20, BP delay -3 (which you would only need it for BPing), Avatar Crit rate +3 (which only works on melee hits mainly), day: perp-3 (which limits what you can summon to take advantage of the perp cost) is better than MP+60 (wow, +40 mp), SMN skill +10 (helps with accuracy for avatars TP gain), perp -4 (don't have to deal with the whole day thing), BP damage + (for BPing in).

I can't believe I have to explain to loldallas about SMN.....guess he really isn't a SMN.

[Razushu]

lol suddenly the town retard thinks he knows how I play. I don't even have a hmp build.

AF2 is also definitely not superior to AF3 body as far as bp acc and damage go.
the only reason you'd use AF2 over AF3 is for perp if you're also using AF3 bracers, because -2 perp (4/2) is less than -3.

I still have a HMP set been adding to it since 75 cap but haven't used it in months.... wait a minute why the hell am I wasting my money on gear I never get to use? I'm starting to feel like Dallas lol.

[Malamasala]

Only thing I have to say about perp, is that it is ridiculous that you are expected to play and collect items until level 90, to get free avatars. And as we all know, having free avatars have not made us gods, and having 0 perpetuation at say level 40 wouldn't have hurt our job a bit.

Honestly, it is the same as giving DRKs -STR every single level, but say they can easilly offset this with armors... the point is that no other jobs need to equip armors to counter a penalty. SMN is unique, in that it is the only job penalized for existing.

I'm still surprised it doesn't cost 1 dollar EXTRA per month to play SMN.

[Arciel]

I still have a HMP set been adding to it since 75 cap but haven't used it in months.... wait a minute why the hell am I wasting my money on gear I never get to use? I'm starting to feel like Dallas lol.

I had a hMP set from the time when I was regularly playing RDM at 75 cap. It wasn't something i was inclined to use because the weapon swap (plutos) would interfere in my TP gain for stuff like Campaign - for which if you used Spirit Taker well you really didn't have a reason to rest.

Never used it post 75 especially not in Abyssea so I dropped the set entirely and rely on a pure Refresh set if ever I need to heal, which is also a rarity. Frees up quite a few gear slots too.

edit: love your sig

[Razushu]

I had a hMP set from the time when I was regularly playing RDM at 75 cap. It wasn't something i was inclined to use because the weapon swap (plutos) would interfere in my TP gain for stuff like Campaign - for which if you used Spirit Taker well you really didn't have a reason to rest.

Never used it post 75 especially not in Abyssea so I dropped the set entirely and rely on a pure Refresh set if ever I need to heal, which is also a rarity. Frees up quite a few gear slots too.

edit: love your sig

Thanks lol, never used it in Campaign either didn't need it I like to keep it on hand for the occaisional death I suffer to be back to full in the shortest possible time.

[Razushu]

Only thing I have to say about perp, is that it is ridiculous that you are expected to play and collect items until level 90, to get free avatars. And as we all know, having free avatars have not made us gods, and having 0 perpetuation at say level 40 wouldn't have hurt our job a bit.

Honestly, it is the same as giving DRKs -STR every single level, but say they can easilly offset this with armors... the point is that no other jobs need to equip armors to counter a penalty. SMN is unique, in that it is the only job penalized for existing.

I'm still surprised it doesn't cost 1 dollar EXTRA per month to play SMN.

Hopefully this new ability changes the BP delay problem enough to change how we're seen and doesn't cost us an arm and a leg to do it for once.

[Malamasala]

I'm not so much worried about the arm and the leg, as it wearing my watch out by my stares for its recast.

I mean, add a timer bound ability to fix a timer bound ability? That is like robbing a bank to pay back for a bank robbery. You are only moving the problem, not solving it.

[Razushu]

I'm not so much worried about the arm and the leg, as it wearing my watch out by my stares for its recast.

I mean, add a timer bound ability to fix a timer bound ability? That is like robbing a bank to pay back for a bank robbery. You are only moving the problem, not solving it.


It says Blood Pacts (plural), so I'm going to remain hopeful that it's a stance and not a one shot ability with a five minute recast.

[Dbarr74]

It could be similar to Avatar's Favor, While JA remains active, BPs cost an extra X percentage and -Y BP delay.

[Heero]

•Vision
Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies

We intend to make it easier for avatars to wreak havoc upon enemies, but also emphasize how vital the act of managing the source of their magical powers is to summoners.


•Example Adjustments

•A new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.

•Introducing the avatars Cait Sith and Atomos.


I give SE alot of credit because I've been SMN for along time been on FFXI for 7years. I always loved smn since ff7-ffx11 (ff7 note cloud and the gang was basically every job we have now rolled in to one). I really want to speak for the smn's that just enjoyed the role and even though wants those 1,000,000k gears and rare/ex but to broke to get them or can't stay long on long enough to catch a NM. I mentioned that because I gonna get response like get better gear and ect..

To the point :)
I don't like the concept of sacrificing more mp to drop your mp pool down faster. I don't think its how fast you can get your bloodpacts off but instead how effective it is when you do get it off. Sometimes my lower mp pacts does more damage than my lvl 70 pact it's all in mob what boost it got and what element it is.
I don't party much with smn and I don't summon avatar and watch them fight from a distance those make my role boring. I'm a crazy get in any mobs face and pull out my staff and build my tp to start some SC or Spirit taker (not good trade of tp on strong mobs) the way I look at it I'm a summoner I got demigods protecting me with access to every element some key status effects (good/bad) a battle with a mob shouldn't be the same way with every avatar. When ifirit's out I'll adjust my gear to match his type like str but the will make him cost more because to boost those trait I'll have to sacrifice my -perp gear. a lot of people don't like the avatar favor but I do the concept is cool but to lose the effect when you use pact sucks because you have to use pact to keep hate off you but who ever came with it I, I see where they was going with it. make each battle more unique shiva's favor smn/sch sweet garuda's/titan favor with smn/thf each avatar is unique and it makes the smn better for knowing which one can keep him/her alive in certain situation knowing mob weakness (elemental and statues) and how safely get a fresh avatar back in battle with minimal effort would be nice (ex. Shiva is my favorite to solo with she has all the survival bloodpacts to keep me safe, but she can't heal so at some point if I'm fighting multiple mobs (happens often) as soon as she's defeated I'm dead unless I start running in advance :) but yea that's where effectiveness comes in, her bloodpact ward is sleepaga if time right I can put both mob to sleep/relese (dumb but she wakes them right back up less than second later) take couple step away siphon (cause once again I have constant hate spirit will wake mob) and recast any other avatar before they wake takes about 45sec by the time get avatar to get hate back 1min is up can't use that twice even on ice or dark day..) Titan stoneskin before death and recast not all avatars can asure your survival after there dismissed so I would prefer more mob control wards or pacts (ramuh's stun long enough to recast, but only works on one mob if you got two your dead.) 1min goes by fast if you got a imobolized type ward and pact.

I know SE is strong on the party thing but making them a laid back and more kneel time to me sounds like more sleep time behind the comp. if you really want us to sacrifice mp allow more pact third one is better use of that macro slot.

[Sargent]

Quoted from here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11246-A-Summoners-Bag-of-tricks?p=143878&viewfull=1#post143878 to hopefully prevent further derailment



How long does it take you to run out of MP or are you only just assuming you would? I only get +2 per tick back with Garuda and I can't use up all my MP. I get the guts of 900MP back every 5 minutes from gear refresh, sublimation and elemental siphon after I negate perp cost.

Sorry for the late reply, not looked at the thread till now. When /rdm, I very rarely run out using Vert and Siphon, but at some stages I come close to running out before the second convert timer is up. In this instance, I just conserve MP as much as possible. In the instance where it's feasible to melee, I just slap on Hvergelmir and won't run out of MP full stop, and won't go below 1k MP outside abyssea, even while using Rage every 45 seconds and keeping Hastega up as /WHM.

[Razushu]

Sorry for the late reply, not looked at the thread till now. When /rdm, I very rarely run out using Vert and Siphon, but at some stages I come close to running out before the second convert timer is up. In this instance, I just conserve MP as much as possible. In the instance where it's feasible to melee, I just slap on Hvergelmir and won't run out of MP full stop, and won't go below 1k MP outside abyssea, even while using Rage every 45 seconds and keeping Hastega up as /WHM.

Welcome back:). I conserve MP too and I've yet to run out on just /sch. I had to rest for the first time since lvl75 the other night, but I was /WHM as one of the main healers in a 12 man group. I'd probably build a empy weapon, but seeing as I can go indefinitely as is, even in situations where I can melee Spirit Taker would be more than enough.

[Korpg]

I wouldn't even waste the time with an emp staff.

I would rather make TotM -perp staves instead. All 8 of them.

They are more useful in my opinion.

[Razushu]

I wouldn't even waste the time with an emp staff.

I would rather make TotM -perp staves instead. All 8 of them.

They are more useful in my opinion.

Doing that atm, might not build the light one though. How Cait Sith is implemented may change this. I think most are thinking she'll be light based,but they might throw us a curve ball and make her non-elemental.

[Sargent]

Quoted from here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11246-A-Summoners-Bag-of-tricks?p=143878&viewfull=1#post143878 to hopefully prevent further derailment



How long does it take you to run out of MP or are you only just assuming you would? I only get +2 per tick back with Garuda and I can't use up all my MP. I get the guts of 900MP back every 5 minutes from gear refresh, sublimation and elemental siphon after I negate perp cost.

Depends on what kind of fight you're doing. Last night I was dumb enough to solo pop Verthandi, and whilst duoing it with a WHM, I didn't run out of MP at all, but I wasn't BPing every 45 seconds like I would in a party situation. With my current set, it's +5/tick with Garuda out, and 502 Siphons. In a party situation, managing my own MP, I honestly haven't tried it out fully, but tbh, I can see myself eventually needing to rest 1 or 2 ticks every 15-20 mins or so.

As much as I don't wanna get involved in the pathetic Goli vs. Caller's arguement, I'm just gonna give my input.

Melee, I can see the appeal, Haste etc. Not meleeing? Hell no, it offers nothing for the job whatsoever (unless fulltime MP+ gear is your kinda thing >.>). Kiting,etc, use Caller's. It's true, MP isn't an issue like it once was, but gaining more MP from your Refresh gear instad of using Refresh gear to hit 0/tick Perp cost is obviously better. When meleeing? Debatable, honestly haven't number crunched it, and honestly don't care enough to number crunch it.

[Razushu]

Depends on what kind of fight you're doing. Last night I was dumb enough to solo pop Verthandi, and whilst duoing it with a WHM, I didn't run out of MP at all, but I wasn't BPing every 45 seconds like I would in a party situation. With my current set, it's +5/tick with Garuda out, and 502 Siphons. In a party situation, managing my own MP, I honestly haven't tried it out fully, but tbh, I can see myself eventually needing to rest 1 or 2 ticks every 15-20 mins or so.

As much as I don't wanna get involved in the pathetic Goli vs. Caller's arguement, I'm just gonna give my input.

Melee, I can see the appeal, Haste etc. Not meleeing? Hell no, it offers nothing for the job whatsoever (unless fulltime MP+ gear is your kinda thing >.>). Kiting,etc, use Caller's. It's true, MP isn't an issue like it once was, but gaining more MP from your Refresh gear instad of using Refresh gear to hit 0/tick Perp cost is obviously better. When meleeing? Debatable, honestly haven't number crunched it, and honestly don't care enough to number crunch it.

Last time I needed to rest, i was mainhealing in Dynamis as /WHM whild buffing DDs and raging every 45 secs. Only needed to rest once in the 2hrs though. Getting +2MP per tick back on Avatars is a net gain of 280MP per minute over wearing no -perp/refresh gear at all, before adding siphon etc.

The general consensus is that melee vs. perp/refresh seems to be that either side is pretty much never going to run out of MP unless something goes wrong. I say general consensus, but Dallas will be in here before long spouting the redundant argument that melee means unlimited MP. Even though everyone knows that MP isn't a problem for anyone, he's still convinced he's found the fabled fountain of ether.

[Sargent]

I say general consensus, but Dallas will be in here before long spouting the redundant argument that melee means unlimited MP. Even though everyone knows that MP isn't a problem for anyone, he's still convinced he's found the fabled fountain of ether.

I don't wanna hop on the bandwagon, but with Hver at least, meleeing does more or less guarantee unlimited MP. However, in most situations it's simply not feasible to do so due to TP feed/AoE attacks, and in those instances you use more MP though cures, and that needs to be considered. I respect Dallas' wishes to make Summoner a more active job, and this was highlighted in the Job Adjustments Manifesto with lower BP timers, depending on how it's implimented. However, saying people who use Caller's Body +2 have MP issues is pushing it, having more MP then you need is never a bad thing, running out of MP on the other hand is. Summoner's Body/+1 would, agreed put out more dmage between pacts then Caller's +2, in terms of the period between BPs, Caller's +2 really does only offer perp- (Summoning skill only enhances accuracy during BPs and if your over the skill cap). Still, in my opinion, Caller's +2 still wins out, simply down to the MP management.

[Razushu]

I don't wanna hop on the bandwagon, but with Hver at least, meleeing does more or less guarantee unlimited MP. However, in most situations it's simply not feasible to do so due to TP feed/AoE attacks, and in those instances you use more MP though cures, and that needs to be considered. I respect Dallas' wishes to make Summoner a more active job, and this was highlighted in the Job Adjustments Manifesto with lower BP timers, depending on how it's implimented. However, saying people who use Caller's Body +2 have MP issues is pushing it, having more MP then you need is never a bad thing, running out of MP on the other hand is. Summoner's Body/+1 would, agreed put out more dmage between pacts then Caller's +2, in terms of the period between BPs, Caller's +2 really does only offer perp- (Summoning skill only enhances accuracy during BPs and if your over the skill cap). Still, in my opinion, Caller's +2 still wins out, simply down to the MP management.

There's no need to hop on the bandwagon. In situations where melee can be used myrkr does grant unlimited MP, that however doesn't change the fact that most SMNs nowadays don't run out of MP ever(or extremely rarely). Dallas' point is somehow that his unlimited MP is magically superior to other means of unlimited MP.

Caller's body wins, unless you're using the Caller's bracers +1 with the SMN doublet on matching day. the crit hit will increase DPS, but the Caller's Doublet will give consistent higher damage on BPs.

[Arciel]

I'd say its a bit of an exaggeration to state that it's extremely rare that a SMN could manage to run out of MP outside of Abyssea - its just a matter of how the situation presents itself and whether you're at liberty to use all your tools at your disposal. If say you're doing something like co avatar tanking an NM with avatars, it isn't exactly apt to siphon until the avatar dies, and you might be using say Garuda and BP rage for damage and ward healing every moment you can. It is in non-ideal situations like this that your MP will get strained.. and this can happen rather often, especially in an event like Voidwatch.

In other words, MP is less of an issue with the Empyrean set (and is non existent in abyssea) but can still present itself in less that optimal situations.

Against EPs, Hvergelmir (or the WoE staff) will in fact be the most efficient staff bar none in terms of MP control because of your ability to gain TP to use Myrkr - but even this varies with mobs as some might spam TP reset and so on.

And in such situations it's prudent to adapt a conserve and recover approach, which means to say perp/refresh gear along with the staff of choice, because how much damage you do per swing / in between WS isn't meant to be consequential - doing so also de-necessitates the need to speed up the process.

As for Caller's Body, what Raz said.

[Malamasala]

I wouldn't even waste the time with an emp staff.

I would rather make TotM -perp staves instead. All 8 of them.

They are more useful in my opinion.

Or if one is not intending to deal high melee damage, it is entirely possible to do the WoE staff for Myrkr.

[Korpg]

Or if one is not intending to deal high melee damage, it is entirely possible to do the WoE staff for Myrkr.

Point being, I wouldn't be reliant on feeding the mob TP and risking myself against any mob just to keep my avatar up and BPs going.

[Tarage]

I get 2 mp per tic with all of my avatars. I could be getting 3 if I had the refresh grip. And no, I don't melee.

[Covenant]

The whole -mp perp discussion is kinda useless, due to the fact that no matter how many points of -mp perp a summoner as it's always capped at -1mp. Period. You can never get to zero mp and certainly not +1mp without a job trait or refresh gear and/or spell.

I like that SE is finally looking at decreasing BP/BW delay. Being a supporter of spirits though I'd like to see optional gear to speed casting cycles past their cap. It really doesn't make sense for either avatars or spirits to be stuck on a slow casting cycle, when a blackmage or others can spam nukes till their MP runs out or they die from enimity. With convert this is even more pronounced.

[Tarage]

The whole -mp perp discussion is kinda useless, due to the fact that no matter how many points of -mp perp a summoner as it's always capped at -1mp. Period. You can never get to zero mp and certainly not +1mp without a job trait or refresh gear and/or spell.

I like that SE is finally looking at decreasing BP/BW delay. Being a supporter of spirits though I'd like to see optional gear to speed casting cycles past their cap. It really doesn't make sense for either avatars or spirits to be stuck on a slow casting cycle, when a blackmage or others can spam nukes till their MP runs out or they die from enimity. With convert this is even more pronounced.

You don't play SMN do you. I have +2 refresh with my avatars out, even more so on the right day/weather. Hell, I had refresh Carbuncle for years with carby mits.

Pro tip: don't comment about jobs you don't play lest you sound like a complete fool. You know, like you did just now.

EDIT: Upon re-reading your statement I guess it's somewhat correct. However SMN gets +2 refresh as a native job trait, so it really doesn't matter. Refresh avatars are very common.

[Cymmina]

I wouldn't even waste the time with an emp staff.

I would rather make TotM -perp staves instead. All 8 of them.

They are more useful in my opinion.

What's the point of -6 Perp (Lv.90) if you can get -12 Perp easy with HQ staves/Fay Crozier, which are only -3, and avatars only cost 14 Perp? I use Stearc Subligar in my perp set, even though I do have Augur's Brais. A -6 staff obviously better than a -3 staff, but is it really worth the effort? If you're after the -BPD, then that's a different story (but it only takes 4 or 5 pieces of gear to cap your -BPD anyway?)

-3 HQ Staff/Fay Crozier
-4 Caller's Doublet +2
-3 Caller's Pigaches +2
-1 Augur's Brais/Stearc Subligar
-1 Evoker's Ring
-1 Nashira Gages
-1 Diabolos's Rope (Diabolos only)
--
-13 Total (-14 Diabolos only)

What trades can you really make for refresh if you had an extra -3 Perp? The hand slot in favor of Serpentes Cuffs, which only offers refresh half the time, is the only one I can realistically see. Or you can get rid of Pigaches +2 and wear Herald's Gaiters full time.

I also have Caller's Bracers +2, but since the Perp is cut in half last instead of first like Carbuncle's Mitts (at least, this is my understanding), I couldn't come up with a single combination of gear that would make the +2 Bracers more than just a pair of Nashira Gages with +Avatar Accuracy. Summoner's Horn falls into the same problem I mentioned above: I'm already close/capped on -Perp, making Caller's Horn +2 the better choice.

I don't SMN very often, so I'm not sure that I see the full value of making a -Perp staff when I can cap -Perp with gear I already have to carry around anyway. It's also entirely possible I don't have my gear sets done properly.

[Arciel]

TotM perp staves are actually rather useless if you're able to get all the other major pieces of perp gear.

Cos if you have the optimal gear in all other slots and -3 staff, you're going to run into excess perp for Carby and Fenrir.. and you'd be 1 perp cost awa from capping perp anyway. This is also assuming you're swapping in Refresh gear for slots that provide the same level of Refresh and perp.

This also means that you can get like 5+mp/tic just from idle-gear on Carby and Fenrir which pushes you a lot closer to self-sufficiency even without subjob. 5 is the max unconditionally from gear/auto-refresh atm. This also means about 3+ mp/tic from celestials.

Problem with the current situation, would be that since there is excess perp, the real limiting factor to your potential is refresh gear. But even then, 6mp/tic is nothing to scoff at.

No doubt perp cost will rise again and TotM staves will have slightly more use, but you can really do without it.
Inside Abyssea, you could be naked and it wouldn't matter.
Outside, on EM and less, you should be able to get greater returns from a hybrid perp + Myrkr set.

[Covenant]

@tarange no I haven't played it in a while, but I thought this was the case? Remembered reading it somewhere on wiki. Maybe under the solo carby exp camps. Guess I was wrong.

[Korpg]

What's the point of -6 Perp (Lv.90) if you can get -12 Perp easy with HQ staves/Fay Crozier, which are only -3, and avatars only cost 14 Perp? I use Stearc Subligar in my perp set, even though I do have Augur's Brais. A -6 staff obviously better than a -3 staff, but is it really worth the effort? If you're after the -BPD, then that's a different story (but it only takes 4 or 5 pieces of gear to cap your -BPD anyway?)

-3 HQ Staff/Fay Crozier
-4 Caller's Doublet +2
-3 Caller's Pigaches +2
-1 Augur's Brais/Stearc Subligar
-1 Evoker's Ring
-1 Nashira Gages
-1 Diabolos's Rope (Diabolos only)
--
-13 Total (-14 Diabolos only)

What trades can you really make for refresh if you had an extra -3 Perp? The hand slot in favor of Serpentes Cuffs, which only offers refresh half the time, is the only one I can realistically see. Or you can get rid of Pigaches +2 and wear Herald's Gaiters full time.

I also have Caller's Bracers +2, but since the Perp is cut in half last instead of first like Carbuncle's Mitts (at least, this is my understanding), I couldn't come up with a single combination of gear that would make the +2 Bracers more than just a pair of Nashira Gages with +Avatar Accuracy. Summoner's Horn falls into the same problem I mentioned above: I'm already close/capped on -Perp, making Caller's Horn +2 the better choice.

I don't SMN very often, so I'm not sure that I see the full value of making a -Perp staff when I can cap -Perp with gear I already have to carry around anyway. It's also entirely possible I don't have my gear sets done properly.

I know all that, I was saying that the TotM staves are more useful than emp staff.

[Cymmina]

I know all that, I was saying that the TotM staves are more useful than emp staff.

And yet you admit that you're making 8 of them. Emp staff is at least useful in the rare situations where melee SMN is appropriate and takes a fraction of the effort to make.

[Razushu]

And yet you admit that you're making 8 of them. Emp staff is at least useful in the rare situations where melee SMN is appropriate and takes a fraction of the effort to make.

They're actually pretty useful, with the +2 I get +2MP refresh back while still being able to wear Evoker's spats and Summoner's Bracers for acc.

[Arciel]

I dunno about you, but i'm getting 4mp/tic back on celestials and 5 for carby/fenrir/diabolos just using a Fay Crozier and a right mix of perp/refresh gear, unconditionally too (except moonshade earring)... so if all you're getting is +2 with the TotM staves, you're overgearing perp.

And if I were to get a TotM staff at the current levels of perp cost, the only avatars it'll help with is the celestials, and I only really need to get a -4 perp staff to cap perp reduction (I'm not counting the spirits cos no one really cares, or its the same cost as celestials), so its still pretty wasted because of perp caps

As for the acc thing, acc gear on hands and legs are kinda wasted on regular melee attacks. For BPs, you shouldn't need to use them because of adequate skill to cover acc, and would likely move towards damage/crit/etc. In order words, the better you are, the less you'll need those 2 pieces. I no longer ever carry Evoker Spats on me

[Korpg]

And yet you admit that you're making 8 of them. Emp staff is at least useful in the rare situations where melee SMN is appropriate and takes a fraction of the effort to make.

I didn't admit that I'm making any of them. I'm saying that if I choose to make a new staff(s), I would choose the 8 TotM because they are more useful for SMN and the party. Since you don't have to feed the mob TP in order to keep your avatar out.

On bigger stuff than EM, like anything worth killing, you don't want a SMN pretending to melee. There are too many variables in most mobs out there, both inside and outside of abyssea, that you can't have another body to heal or raise just to kill the mob.

[Razushu]

I dunno about you, but i'm getting 4mp/tic back on celestials and 5 for carby/fenrir/diabolos just using a Fay Crozier and a right mix of perp/refresh gear, unconditionally too (except moonshade earring)... so if all you're getting is +2 with the TotM staves, you're overgearing perp.

And if I were to get a TotM staff at the current levels of perp cost, the only avatars it'll help with is the celestials, and I only really need to get a -4 perp staff to cap perp reduction (I'm not counting the spirits cos no one really cares, or its the same cost as celestials), so its still pretty wasted because of perp caps

As for the acc thing, acc gear on hands and legs are kinda wasted on regular melee attacks. For BPs, you shouldn't need to use them because of adequate skill to cover acc, and would likely move towards damage/crit/etc. In order words, the better you are, the less you'll need those 2 pieces. I no longer ever carry Evoker Spats on me

I get +2 atm with my mix of perp/refresh gear(working on moonshade and horn +2 atm). I'm not over gearing perp(except maybe Carby, who is free with +2 feet and mitts), my point was if you get a big chunk off -perp on the weapon you can wear other gear that isn't perp, that possibly may boost Avatar performance. I BP in 420+ SMN mag skill with full acc merits, and still see the occasional wiff on NMs so +28 acc isn't something I would consider useless. When I find acc a non-issue and some other gear to full time I'll drop the spats, but the extra acc is still nice regardless and why would I wear it anyway when I've capped -perp with hands/feety slots free.

[Arciel]

hmm in that case then you're not optimally geared for perp/refresh. There are really only 3 pieces of refresh gear to aim for...
the horn +2, moonshade earring and stearc subligar. I kid you not on the subligar. It's ugly but it does the job well (and is way easier to get and ultimately more useful than auger's brais), because really, those are the limiting factors in terms of obtaining a strong refresh set.

I do get what you mean by freeing other slots from perp, but those are very limited options.
Even with a Nirvana (90) and its -7 perp, all it frees up for you is 2 gear slots if you gear for optimal refresh upon perp, which are either
1) hands and ring, of which ring has no real alternative options. (keep feet and body on)
2) feet (keep body, hands and ring)

This is of course assuming Celestials. with Fenrir, it could free up hands and feet and allow you to tack on 1 more tic of refresh from Serpentes. On Carbuncle, 2 more tics with a refresh body included. Both are massive independent MP gain playstyles that can be considered for various situations.

In the end, given the current perp cost level, it depends on whether you feel the flexibility in gear options afforded by a higher perp staff are worth the effort. I'm personally of the opinion that they do not, because I believe avatar damage is primarily BP based and when I BP its not in perp gear anyway.

[Razushu]

hmm in that case then you're not optimally geared for perp/refresh. There are really only 3 pieces of refresh gear to aim for...
the horn +2, moonshade earring and stearc subligar. I kid you not on the subligar. It's ugly but it does the job well (and is way easier to get and ultimately more useful than auger's brais), because really, those are the limiting factors in terms of obtaining a strong refresh set.

I do get what you mean by freeing other slots from perp, but those are very limited options.
Even with a Nirvana (90) and its -7 perp, all it frees up for you is 2 gear slots if you gear for optimal refresh upon perp, which are either
1) hands and ring, of which ring has no real alternative options. (keep feet and body on)
2) feet (keep body, hands and ring)

This is of course assuming Celestials. with Fenrir, it could free up hands and feet and allow you to tack on 1 more tic of refresh from Serpentes. On Carbuncle, 2 more tics with a refresh body included. Both are massive independent MP gain playstyles that can be considered for various situations.

In the end, given the current perp cost level, it depends on whether you feel the flexibility in gear options afforded by a higher perp staff are worth the effort. I'm personally of the opinion that they do not, because I believe avatar damage is primarily BP based and when I BP its not in perp gear anyway.

I see your point, and am working toword horn and earring. SE has been adding gear that could have idle applications if you can max out - perp with these slots free, the Serpentes set is a good example. I can see the use of it now, and who knows what they'll add in the next updates. At the moment the benefits may be a little limited vs. the effort required but that may change.

[Dallas]

On bigger stuff than EM, like anything worth killing, you don't want a SMN pretending to melee.

Psst, I think SMN graduated to VT mobs in 2006. You aren't going to learn anything about it hanging around people who need a thread devoted to stacking -perp gear.

[Korpg]

Psst, I think SMN graduated to VT mobs in 2006. You aren't going to learn anything about it hanging around people who need a thread devoted to stacking -perp gear.

Oh wow, you are on VT mobs now? With a party/alliance still? On mobs that take less than 30 seconds to kill, with or without you?

[Dallas]

Someone tell the WAR what year it is, please.

[Arciel]

Psst, I think SMN graduated to VT mobs in 2006. You aren't going to learn anything about it hanging around people who need a thread devoted to stacking -perp gear.

If you remember reading the OP, they only needed one because someone was derailing it into a melee SMN argument.

but srsly tho, I am shocked at how little some SMN know about proper perp gearing. I never thought this thread was necessary until now. Like, even you know perp math better than them, and I think that says something.

[Razushu]

If you remember reading the OP, they only needed one because someone was derailing it into a melee SMN argument.

but srsly tho, I am shocked at how little some SMN know about proper perp gearing. I never thought this thread was necessary until now. Like, even you know perp math better than them, and I think that says something.

He doesn't like to read anything that isn't a compliment:D. As for other SMNs not knowing perp math.... I blame the parents.

[Dallas]

If you remember reading the OP, they only needed one because someone was derailing it into a melee SMN argument.


Yes, every argument ever started is the fault of someone. I think it's a rule you place the blame on the person who disagrees with you. I simply thought about melee SMN and this thread descended into higher math hell. That's how good I am.

:cool:

[Razushu]

Yes, every argument ever started is the fault of someone. I think it's a rule you place the blame on the person who disagrees with you. I simply thought about melee SMN and this thread descended into higher math hell. That's how good I am.

:cool:

Dallas the only thing you did here was try to pretend you're the only one without MP issues anymore, we get it you like to melee. Guess what? No one cares, go for it. It's not like we'd ever play together so it wouldn't matter, just stop pretending like it's the only way to keep up MP.

[Dallas]

Yes, this thread is for you. Not trying to knock elementary SMN discovery. Once you get brave enough to use ST on trash mobs, you might be interested in learning what else SMN can wear.

[Razushu]

Yes, this thread is for you. Not trying to knock elementary SMN discovery. Once you get brave enough to use ST on trash mobs, you might be interested in learning what else SMN can wear.

Everyone melees on trash mobs, I know this will come as a shock but you didn't invent mage melee. I'm well aware of gear SMN can wear both useful and useless, this includes all that haste/enmity- gear you love.

[Korpg]

You got to realize that anything that a melee SMN can fight, so can those who don't choose the melee. But beyond that, the SMNs who either have the avatars only on the mobs (avatars TPing on the mobs) or just there for hateless, TP free damage can do a lot more than those who choose to melee only.

Those who want to melee, go ahead. But you have to realize, if you noob it up and melee on anything harder than a T mob, or NM, you run the risk of getting kicked from your party/linkshell from feeding too much TP.

[Dallas]

There is no way you melee on 99% of the game Raz, or staff would be capped. It took me a week tops, and most of the time I was working on magian trials on EP.

[Razushu]

There is no way you melee on 99% of the game Raz, or staff would be capped. It took me a week tops, and most of the time I was working on magian trials on EP.

When the hell did I say I melee 99% of the game?

[Korpg]

There is no way you melee on 99% of the game Raz, or staff would be capped. It took me a week tops, and most of the time I was working on magian trials on EP.

Wait, I thought you had that emp staff. You working on your Perp- gear because you finally figured out how bad your melee setup is...finally?

[Dallas]

Raz, 99% of the game is trash mobs. All L75 content, Abyssea, Grounds, Magian. It's all stupidly easy to melee. So, you don't melee trash mobs.

[Soundwave]

Whats the other % AV?

[Razushu]

Whats the other % AV?

I think he's counting every mob that exists in the game, right down to the lvl 1 bunnies.

[Soundwave]

I think he's counting every mob that exists in the game, right down to the lvl 1 bunnies.

Hehe:cool:

[Dallas]

I think he's counting every mob that exists in the game, right down to the lvl 1 bunnies.

Magian alone should have forced you to kill a few thousand EP mobs for 1 staff. Never lifted your staff once, did you?

[Korpg]

Magian alone should have forced you to kill a few thousand EP mobs for 1 staff. Never lifted your staff once, did you?

Sure. Count level 50 mobs as something a SMN should melee, I don't care. But you know what? I'll still outdamage you on any mob out there. As a WAR and as a SMN.

[Razushu]

Magian alone should have forced you to kill a few thousand EP mobs for 1 staff. Never lifted your staff once, did you?

Oh you mean those mobs that for the most part die so fast melee is pointless anyway? Yeah I meleed them sometimes, if they didn't die so fast, but for the most part it was:

Step 1. Preadator claws

Step 2. enga.... oh wait its almost dead nevermind.

Step 3. turn away, Garuda gets kill shot.

Also my staff skill is 250, how exactly do you expect me to skill that up on EP--?

PS. Thousands? for one Staff? The perp cost stave path requires you to kill 1,225 mobs total, that's "thousand" singular.

[Dallas]

You have 45 seconds until your next BP. Do you just stand there?

As for skilling, if you were serious about it, the EP/DC in Abyssea are easier to kill and can take you to cap. Don't worry about the hate issues I have. You have chosen very weak, non-melee weapons.

[Razushu]

You have 45 seconds until your next BP. Do you just stand there?

As for skilling, if you were serious about it, the EP/DC in Abyssea are easier to kill and can take you to cap. Don't worry about the hate issues I have. You have chosen very weak, non-melee weapons.

Whatever I want the mob is prety much dead anyway, most trial mobs last at most 30secs after a BP, why would I take the time to engage for 20 odd secs when I have to turn anyway before the mob dies, especially when my TP will zero out on next Blood Pact.

[Korpg]

Don't worry about the hate issues I have. You have chosen very weak, non-melee weapons.

You mean while soloing? Of course you would have hate issues if you can't keep your avatar out full time. But then again, you should be able to kill EP mobs in Abyssea without an avatar anyway. Just wait until they start becoming EM, then you might be in trouble.

[Dallas]

You have it backwards for trials, Raz. You melee until the timer is ready then use the BP. THat way, the avatar always has the killshot. Then you assault/melee/spirit taker on the next mob.

[Dallas]

I should clarify with careful juggling, I kill 2 Abyssea mobs in 50 seconds. You won't see that without aftermath.

[Razushu]

You have it backwards for trials, Raz. You melee until the timer is ready then use the BP. THat way, the avatar always has the killshot. Then you assault/melee/spirit taker on the next mob.

MP isn't an issue, neither is killspeed. Predator Claws wait 20-30 seconds until mob dies, find next mob repeat. Melee tends to be unnecesssary and not worth the effort to do, BPs zero out my MP Avatar : +20 atk/+12 MAB is far more useful than a Spirit Taker.

[Korpg]

What about inside Abyssea Raz?

PC > dead mob > assault another mob > wait for recast timer > PC > dead mob?

You can kill 2 mobs in Abyssea in 50 seconds...and you don't have to melee either!

[Razushu]

What about inside Abyssea Raz?

PC > dead mob > assault another mob > wait for recast timer > PC > dead mob?

You can kill 2 mobs in Abyssea in 50 seconds...and you don't have to melee either!

Lol I missed that post, good catch.

[Dallas]

Catch 22, melee is only not worthwhile because you aren't putting in the time to get +70 acc/att. I will have capped staff skill for L95 in approximately a week. I spent the time because it is worthwhile.

[Razushu]

Catch 22, melee is only not worthwhile because you aren't putting in the time to get +70 acc/att. I will have capped staff skill for L95 in approximately a week. I spent the time because it is worthwhile.

No it's not worthwhile because anything a SMN can reliably melee is dying so fast I barely would have time to engage it, before needing to move on.

[Dallas]

No it's not worthwhile because anything a SMN can reliably melee is dying so fast I barely would have time to engage it, before needing to move on.

I'm certain your definition of reliable is pathetic. Let's try this way: whatever two of you could reliably duo without resummoning is what I can reliably melee. Let's not ever consider anything you can melee.

[Razushu]

I'm certain your definition of reliable is pathetic. Let's try this way: whatever two of you could reliably duo without resummoning is what I can reliably melee. Let's not ever consider anything you can melee.

Thats pretty much a list of things that will die so fast there's no point in drawing your staff.

[Dallas]

Thats pretty much a list of things that will die so fast there's no point in drawing your staff.

You make no sense. Do you always jump to assuming you are twice as strong as yourself? Not until you can melee...

[Razushu]

You make no sense. Do you always jump to assuming you are twice as strong as yourself? Not until you can melee...

I'm going to assume this discussion take place in Abyssea as it's the only place an Avatar can last a full fight on anything >IT++, and I'm going to answer in terms of NMs as there's nothing really that will survive 2 BP: Rages.

You said anything 2 SMNs can duo in a single Summoning you can melee, well thats a list of things that will die extremely fast unless a) It's powerful and you're using tank Atmas or b) the duoing SMNs are spamming healing pacts.

The problems that arise here for a) either both SMNs will use a full Damage Atma build and just stagger BPS/resummons to tear it down quick, or one Summoner will have a Tank build while the other will be using a full damage build, the mob will also go down very quickly anyway. Both of these would go faster than you meleeing as you would need at least some tanking atmas to make an Avatar last a full fight against all but the weakest NMs.

And for b) Both of these Summoners would still be able to use at least 2 DD atmas a piece, and still be able to keep an Avatar out the entire fight, seeing as they would have a partner Avatar to help lessen the damage each are taking between Healing Pacts, whereas a solo melee SMN relying on their pet to last the entire fight will need at least 2 tanking atmas to make this happen.

[Dallas]

Ok, then let's start with IT mobs in Abyssea. The "++" is your skill. The avatar is less than half SMN's damage, so anything that takes you 2 bps only needs 1 plus melee. If the BP takes out 1/3 total HP, you can melee the mob dead in less than 45 seconds.

"2 in 50 seconds" only uses 1 BP. Assault one, BP the other. Melee the second down, then the first.

[Razushu]

Ok, then let's start with IT mobs in Abyssea. The "++" is your skill. The avatar is less than half SMN's damage, so anything that takes you 2 bps only needs 1 plus melee. If the BP takes out 1/3 total HP, you can melee the mob dead in less than 45 seconds.

"2 in 50 seconds" only uses 1 BP. Assault one, BP the other. Melee the second down, then the first.

OOh so you were talking about trash mobs? Sorry when you said duo I thought you meant NMs. On anything weak enough to be spammed for TotM, it's not going to last more than 30secs after a BP, so I can't really see myself bothering to draw my staff for the few melee hits it will get in between. If exping a similar thing happens, I solo merits on Sinister Siedels in grauberg [A] Dom Ops 1. Ramuh 1 shots 1/2 of them and the rest usually have ~10%HP left so there's not much left to do on them and less time to do it.

[Korpg]

I'm certain your definition of reliable is pathetic. Let's try this way: whatever two of you could reliably duo without resummoning is what I can reliably melee. Let's not ever consider anything you can melee.

So basically, anything that is easy to kill, you can reliably melee. Got it! But, lets go beyond this. Show us something that you can kill that is IT++. Raz and I can kill that without resummoning, but can you kill that as a melee? Abyssea doesn't count because there isn't anything in there that is IT++. Unless it is a body seal NM.

[Korpg]

Oh wait, you already mentioned that. Still, you can say whatever you want, but where is the proof of your words?

You know, put your money where your mouth is.

[Dallas]

Raz, I hope you realize that no other player in the game has had trouble finding mobs between L70 (your skill) and L90 (current cap) to skill on. You aren't 1-shotting everything that is L90+. We call that a lie.

[Razushu]

Raz, I hope you realize that no other player in the game has had trouble finding mobs between L70 (your skill) and L90 (current cap) to skill on. You aren't 1-shotting everything that is L90+. We call that a lie.

No we call that picking your battles, I tend to kill things that help me accomplish my goals in the shortest time available. For instance if I want merits I head on out to Grauberg [A] VC 8. for Dom Ops 1, my Ramuh 1-shots the pots 1/2 times, leaving the rest ~25%HP. Sure I could go out of my way looking for mobs that are weak enough to melee, but tough enough that an Avatar can't tear apart.

A good example is my current TotM staff is Varuna's -> Varuna's +1, I could melee this trial in Abyssea Tahrongi canyon where Shiva's H.Strike leaves the bats ~50%HP and her unbuffed melee strikes will take quite a while to finish the job, but I've chosen to do it in Upper Delfkutt's T where H.Strike leaves bats ~25%HP and her melee tears them down in a few seconds.

This can be applied to everything, I mean you wouldn't go farm honey off the bats in La Thiene [A], theres level 0 bees everywhere, and if I was skilling staff I would go find some of those mobs that can take a beating.

[Dallas]

How exactly is half damage effective at anything? We call this a delusion of adequacy.

[Razushu]

How exactly is half damage effective at anything? We call this a delusion of adequacy.

I get it man, I really do you're so desperate to melee you will go out of your way to find mobs you can. You'll even go so far as to killing mobs that an Avatar can't rip apart in seconds but are weak enough you can melee on just so you can melee it down with your Avatar, and say you meleed it. Even though theres a better option for SMN out there that dies in seconds anyway. Congratulations you can melee content other Summoners are already doing effectively without melee, you lucky dog.

Answer me some Questions

1) do you solo merits? If so what mobs do you use?

2) What was the last mob you grinded on for a trial(exact monster and zone please)?

[Korpg]

You of all people would know that he won't answer those questions, as they are facts and he doesn't give facts out. It also ties him to a set of information that we can later use to show how noobish he is.

[Razushu]

You of all people would know that he won't answer those questions, as they are facts and he doesn't give facts out. It also ties him to a set of information that we can later use to show how noobish he is.

Lol, I'm hoping he will answer these because, there's not much information about melee SMN that can be gathered from these as in both cases the mobs will be <EM, and it's been established that anyone in Abyssea can bonk these on the head with at least moderate success.

[Clou777]

you know you've abyssea burned summoner when you spell perp PREP! >.<;

[Dallas]

Raz, last trial was Azdaja and it has been ages since I worked on the crappy staves. I think it was DC cockatrices in Abyssea level 85. I was top kill contributor in a murex alliance in vunkurl. I ran laps around the non-melee SMN in GOV. I melee everything but frogs and flayers in Nyzul, including all bosses. I melee all avatar battles. I have meritted 4 jobs to max only with SMN, and always meleeing.

The excuse to melee is because it is the best playstyle by a landslide. All jobs have best players. SMN is the only job that coddles the gimps.

[Razushu]

Raz, last trial was Azdaja and it has been ages since I worked on the crappy staves. I think it was DC cockatrices in Abyssea level 85. I was top kill contributor in a murex alliance in vunkurl. I ran laps around the non-melee SMN in GOV. I melee everything but frogs and flayers in Nyzul, including all bosses. I melee all avatar battles. I have meritted 4 jobs to max only with SMN, and always meleeing.

The excuse to melee is because it is the best playstyle by a landslide. All jobs have best players. SMN is the only job that coddles the gimps.

There's Cockatrice's that won't last the BP recast in Meriphataud Mountains [s], no need to melee there. So thats a no to the soloed merits? Congrats you can melee in Abyssea(psst.... everyone can just fyi). Are you bragging about meleeing on the Trial by [element] fights?

[Korpg]

Raz, last trial was Azdaja and it has been ages since I worked on the crappy staves. I think it was DC cockatrices in Abyssea level 85. I was top kill contributor in a murex alliance in vunkurl. I ran laps around the non-melee SMN in GOV. I melee everything but frogs and flayers in Nyzul, including all bosses. I melee all avatar battles. I have meritted 4 jobs to max only with SMN, and always meleeing.

The excuse to melee is because it is the best playstyle by a landslide. All jobs have best players. SMN is the only job that coddles the gimps.

So, you say you were a top kill contributor in a murex alliance in Vunk, was that because you were always trying for pearl lights and waited until the mob was at 20% before using a BP? Because, you know, that isn't hard.....

Can you do anything by yourself? Or do you always need 17 other people with you so you can melee and feel good for yourself? Here is a hint: How can you consider yourself the best if you are not the best in the group of people? SMN shines in its ability to solo harder mobs/NMs, and you have yet to show you done so.

[Arciel]

come on! everyone knows murex alliance is where all the endgame action is these days!

[Dallas]

I dont solo merits because merits flow out the ears. Ever try to get a grounds drop? Half a merit per page.

I accomplish gear tasks: KI farming, gold chest farming, VNM farming...

Remember my 2 in 50 seconds comment? That's T-IT mobs in Abyssea. That's DC outside (haven't found any reason to try.harder outside). There is never an exp shortage.

[Dallas]

Arc wants to play, then he wants everyone to ignore me, then he wants to play again.

Bipolar much?

[Razushu]

I dont solo merits because merits flow out the ears. Ever try to get a grounds drop? Half a merit per page.

I accomplish gear tasks: KI farming, gold chest farming, VNM farming...

Remember my 2 in 50 seconds comment? That's T-IT mobs in Abyssea. That's DC outside (haven't found any reason to try.harder outside). There is never an exp shortage.

Dom Ops 1 Grauberg [a] is 1/2 a merit per page, no exp shortage in this game anymore. I accomplish those same tasks too, usually without bothering to melee. Especially VNMs Tier 1's drop like flies, and I usually like to kill Tier 2's with 3 DD Atmas(can make for some b*lls to the wall kite moments).

[Dallas]

Just think, in the time you spend defending 250 staff skill, you could have levelled it to cap, or accomplished a lot less by not meleeing.

[Razushu]

Just think, in the time you spend defending 250 staff skill, you could have levelled it to cap, or accomplished a lot less by not meleeing.

Or in the time it took to skill up a skill that's high enough for my purposes, I accomplish everything I've set out to do so far, and lack of a melee gear set has yet to effect me negatively. I solo merits at 8~10 points every 2 hours without meleeing, I've brought down NMs the length and breadth of Vana'diel and Abyssea, without feeling like I need to whiff at them. I've turned the tide in battles that would have gone south without me there, precisely because my hate was at a low level from not meleeing.

I've yet to encounter an obstacle that wouldn't have been there if only I meleed, for mages those obstacles just don't exist theres always another choice. Where as you either melee in a party(and lets face it theres 5+ others fighting the same mob, so it won't matter too much that you're dealing 1/4 the damage of a melee), where your slack can be picked up easily, or you pick targets that give you an excuse to melee ex. For cockatrice's you went to Abyssea for DCs & up that an Avatar would have trouble tearing down quickly, when theres perfectly fine EP-- Cocks in Meri. Mts [s] that won't last a recast timer melee or not.

[Tannlore]

Poor Neonii.... I think her topic got hijacked somewhere in here...

Now this isn't aimed at anyone specifically. So if you think it's aimed at you... yeah YOU... get over yourself, you don't matter enough to me to make this personal.

I'm trying to find what the topic is now anyhow. That people can solo dc or ep mobs faster.... or have higher epeen because they can solo either set faster? Is there still no room for a middle ground here? This topic has taken over... god I can't count how many topics.... like completely taken them over, derailed, tangent, hook-line-sinker, dragged to the bottom of the ocean... hell Shinryu grabbed it, ate it.. spat it out... ate it again, and even brewed IT for the fun of it!

At this point, I think it is best to just agree to disagree. Dallas has a very different style of playing SMN, he has for a long time. He's been talking about it since I've known his posts on FFXIclopedia for years. The rest of you have your own play styles... they are in direct conflict with his: it is pretty obvious.

Neither one of you is going to win this war of words on the inter webs. This thread could have provided good information to new players with honest questions seeking guidance. I've had players send me tells on Ausra seeing the posts here asking for help because they threads just keep getting derailed.. Oy!

Here's some advice: Recite this mantra when you feel the need to nerdRAGE-topic-dimention-warp:

Ignore the other. Just don't feed into the need to stay something to them. You know that their method of playing is inferior to your own. You know it's true don't you? So why even waste the time, you've tried to convince them otherwise and they won't listen. So don't try anymore. Let it all go, they will never learn the benefits of how things really work. Or as the old adage goes: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[Arciel]

Arc wants to play, then he wants everyone to ignore me, then he wants to play again.

Bipolar much?

clearly you missed the fact that the post wasn't addressed at you.

even so, me being bipolar doesn't make you any more credible. but thanks for trying. :)

[Dallas]

It was a dumb thread anyway Tann. I've changed it to "how stupidly easy it is to level staff skill and get rid of noob perp gear.". Apparently, the counter-argument is "why level staff when I can settle for L50 mobs?". The rest is just picking on the handicapped.

[Korpg]

It was a dumb thread anyway Tann. I've changed it to "how stupidly easy it is to level staff skill and get rid of noob perp gear.". Apparently, the counter-argument is "why level staff when I can settle for L50 mobs?". The rest is just picking on the handicapped.

The bolded is your argument, not ours.

Our argument is: Why get a lolempstaff when we can still maintain MP at a better rate AND do a lot more damage than a melee SMN, specially one who thinks that he can melee on everything and doesn't mind asking for a raise every 30 seconds because he is too stupid to stay out of AoE range.

[Razushu]

It was a dumb thread anyway Tann. I've changed it to "how stupidly easy it is to level staff skill and get rid of noob perp gear.". Apparently, the counter-argument is "why level staff when I can settle for L50 mobs?". The rest is just picking on the handicapped.

Actually you haven't changed any topic into anything but "lolDallas is here again", you tried to prove that you're killing things twice as fast as non-lolmeleeSMNs, I proved you're just making stupid mobs choices, in an attempt to make melee seem viable to yourself way to go. I asked you what was the last thing you killed for TotM you said was DC Cockatrices in Abyssea, mobs tough enough to allow you time to melee, and weak enough to make melee viable, which is just a dumb target choice, seeing as there is EP Cockatrices in Meri Mts. [s] that won't last a BP timer. I get that for whatever reason you've decided melee is the best way to play a mage, go for it you're not hurting anyone dut those who let you do it on anything above an EM.

Any non-melee SMN can accomplish the same as you in just as much time, without needing to pick mobs that can be made look like SMN needs to melee.

[Dallas]

Raz, you pick weak mobs because you are weak. You call it skill.

[Razushu]

Raz, you pick weak mobs because you are weak. You call it skill.

I pick weak mobs because I need to kill 200+, you pick higher level to make yourself feel tough, even though those mobs are easily killable anyway just a little slower. It's called intelligence, it allows people to think around problems. The skill comes on soloing NMs or performing a desired role in a party, not equipping atmas and farming DCs.

[Tannlore]

Raz, you pick weak mobs because you are weak. You call it skill.

I pick moogles because they make me kill tons of stupid crap for things I like. Melee SMN on a moogle? Sure, where can I stick my Hvergelmir? Make me kill 200 of what?!

*moves behind magian moogle*
Tannlore readies shell crusher on magian moogle.

Kupo that!

[Korpg]

Raz, you pick weak mobs because you are weak. You call it skill.

Which mobs do you pick? Oh right, DC mobs.

While you go solo your DC mobs, I'll kill level 95+ NMs for my crap.

[Dallas]

those mobs are easily killable anyway just a little slower.

Slower for you because you choose to be slow. C'mon, just say it.

[Korpg]

Slower for you because you choose to be slow. C'mon, just say it.

Actually, he is killing faster than you. It takes him less than 45 seconds to kill 2 mobs, where it takes you 50+ seconds to kill the same 2 mobs. And he isn't even meleeing.

[Dallas]

LOL sure, blame me for this thread dying. It distracts from your inability to kill anything that EVERY OTHER PLAYER CAN KILL.

[Razushu]

LOL sure, blame me for this thread dying. It distracts from your inability to kill anything that EVERY OTHER PLAYER CAN KILL.

Who said anything aboput this thread dying? I can kill just about anything in this game I try, but when I need to spam trash mobs for something, I'm smart enough to find the quickest possible route to that end. Need 250 bats dead? Why go to Abysseaa Tahrongi when theres bats that die faster because they are~20lvls lower in U. Delfkutt's Tower. Need to kill a flock of Cockatrices? Why bother with DC abyssea mobs, when theres EP ones that won't last a BP recast out there. It's called the path of least resistance, it will make certain things alot easier.

I can easily kill anything DC in this game, they aren't actually tough to beat you're they only one here holding them up like soloing them is a test of skill, it's pretty funny when you think about. All those NMs I can solo and you call me gimp for not meleeing on DCs, when there's EP out there that will die in the same amount of time.

[Dallas]

I repeat, one kill per BP is incompetently slow. You have no basis to call yourself quick, no matter how pathetically weak an opponent you choose.

[Korpg]

I repeat, one kill per BP is incompetently slow. You have no basis to call yourself quick, no matter how pathetically weak an opponent you choose.

You are still limited to one kill per BP too. Even when you melee.

Or are you saying that you can oneshot mobs now? If you can kill mobs faster than 45 seconds as a melee mage, then why do you have a pet out?

[Razushu]

I repeat, one kill per BP is incompetently slow. You have no basis to call yourself quick, no matter how pathetically weak an opponent you choose.

So in choosing to fight an EP for a mindless trial that can complete semi-afk over DCs for the same trial in Abyssea that I could also kill semi-afk you fel some kind of gulf in skill opens up? It's funny because the only real difference here isn't skill(there's no skill involved in killing trash mobs), it's actually that you have a desperate need to seem right and will try any argument to push that notion. You kill DC and call it skill, whereas I kill EPs because they die faster, and save my discussions of skill for when, talking about soloing NMs.

[Dallas]

Cruor, experience, drops, chests... and if that's not a big enough excuse to level your staff above that of a L75 BLM, how about this: Someday you might find yourself on a forum NOT trying to defend your inability to farm anything over level 55 to a melee SMN.

[Razushu]

Cruor, experience, drops, chests... and if that's not a big enough excuse to level your staff above that of a L75 BLM, how about this: Someday you might find yourself on a forum NOT trying to defend your inability to farm anything over level 55 to a melee SMN.

Inability? You certainly make some presumptive leaps don't you? I can farm mobs of any level I need to, but if I find myself in need of farming something I'm going to pick the lowest level monster that fits the criteria. That's just common sense, I mean I could hit up Abyssea La Thiene to farm honey off the bees near flux 3, but it's much smarter to go to any of the low level areas and farm the same item quicker, faster, easier. I'm sorry I don't take my fighting anything <EM as seriously as you, but it's just so easy they never get my full attention. I farm weaker mobs because it's easier and I'm not desperately trying to push an agenda by proclaiming I can farm quickly by meleeing on SMN, when if you made smart farming target selections it would go by just as quickly.

[Dallas]

If you had the ability to kill anything tougher, your staff skill wouldn't blow chunks.

[Razushu]

If you had the ability to kill anything tougher, your staff skill wouldn't blow chunks.

Just because this game ends at DCs for you doesn't mean it does for the rest of us, you continue to play with your little melee setup and brag about all the DCs you can melee, the rest of us will be off killing NMs with ease.

[Korpg]

Just because this game ends at DCs for you doesn't mean it does for the rest of us, you continue to play with your little melee setup and brag about all the DCs you can melee, the rest of us will be off killing NMs with ease.

Quoted for the truth of it all. Also, what I have been saying for months now.

[Dallas]

Just because this game ends at DCs for you doesn't mean it does for the rest of us, you continue to play with your little melee setup and brag about all the DCs you can melee, the rest of us will be off killing NMs with ease.

Aww, did you give up? You lasted so long on your "Gimp means I'm pimp."

Any last Gimp thoughts Raz? You have failed soloing trash mobs and perp gear, and now you want to be recognized for BP/release. It's time to accept you just aren't end game smn material.

[Razushu]

Aww, did you give up? You lasted so long on your "Gimp means I'm pimp."

Any last Gimp thoughts Raz? You have failed soloing trash mobs and perp gear, and now you want to be recognized for BP/release. It's time to accept you just aren't end game smn material.

BP/release <huh!?> who mentioned that? I've never failed at soloing trash mobs, just you fail at picking trash mobs to solo. I was talking about soloing NMs, you know the true test of a Summoner's skill, and strangely a subject on which you're very quiet.

[Dallas]

Yeah, totally not interested in what you have to say anymore. Me, silent on soloing? LOL goodbye.

[Razushu]

Yeah, totally not interested in what you have to say anymore. Me, silent on soloing? LOL goodbye.

Unless it's a DC you're plenty silent on soloing, unless you care to shed some light on it....

[Tannlore]

Oy.... oy oy

My head hurts all over again, seriously guys? *Rolls his a newspaper and uses hexastrike on all of you*

There's melee for you!

Ya know, I've been hearing this argument now for years on Ffxiclopedia's forums and the fact that it's spilled over to here has made me a very sad panda. So much derailment happened there and is happening here too.

Alright then, let's make some magic!!!

PROOF!

How about some good old fashioned proof folks? Who cares about what anyone can theoretically do eh? I don't give three cait siths how many EP/DC/EM/IT/IT+++ you say can solo. Or how many NMs you say can tickle till you're blue in the face. Or how fast you can wax your epeen in compassion to 15 other people in the span of some made up amount of time.

Let's have some proof!

Youtube is waiting for you! Post those videos up and let's see it! Put your money where your mouth is, or shut your traps. Cause seriously at this point, it's getting old.... Oh... so... old.

[Soranika]

Seems rather intangible. Melee and non melee styles of playing SMN are possible, but melee smn are no good at solo'ing NMs. I shouldn't say no good because if the NM is relatively manageable (as in not owning your avatar flat out in 3 minutes or less), it comes down to knowing when to disengage, run like made to a safe distance and resummon when your avatar falls so you won't be stuck struggling to resummon while taking damage.

At the same time, I wouldn't call kiting NM while solo'ing NMs 'easy'. I personally don't choose to solo NMs cause I don't want to be stuck there for 15-20 minutes or some times longer on an NM that will more than likely not drop what I'm looking for. I stomached it when fighting Cernunnos solo cause I really didn't want to bother for something I knew I could do myself... To me, solo'ing tough NMs period (especially if you're looking for a specific drop) is just as inefficient when there's people you could have with you to help like ls members, friends, or random people who want to experience new things and not fail at it. (They DO exist. I've met a few who helped with BCNMs.)

I gotta say that never have I've played a game where there's this much infighting about a choice of playing style.

[Razushu]

Seems rather intangible. Melee and non melee styles of playing SMN are possible, but melee smn are no good at solo'ing NMs. I shouldn't say no good because if the NM is relatively manageable (as in not owning your avatar flat out in 3 minutes or less), it comes down to knowing when to disengage, run like made to a safe distance and resummon when your avatar falls so you won't be stuck struggling to resummon while taking damage.


If your Avatar will die at all during an NM fight melee is completely impossible, unless it's a very weak NM, your Avatar only dies once, and you do less damage in total than a single Blood Pact: Rage. Soloing on Summoner requires hate to be finely balanced, on a prolonged fight even getting caught Summoning can cause the NM to ignore your Avatar until you use a BP:R, which can lead to complications.


At the same time, I wouldn't call kiting NM while solo'ing NMs 'easy'. I personally don't choose to solo NMs cause I don't want to be stuck there for 15-20 minutes or some times longer on an NM that will more than likely not drop what I'm looking for. I stomached it when fighting Cernunnos solo cause I really didn't want to bother for something I knew I could do myself... To me, solo'ing tough NMs period (especially if you're looking for a specific drop) is just as inefficient when there's people you could have with you to help like ls members, friends, or random people who want to experience new things and not fail at it. (They DO exist. I've met a few who helped with BCNMs.)

Kiting NMs solo is really easy, do enough of it and it becomes second nature. Outside Abyssea killing it solo has the same chance of getting your drop as with a group. When you factor in the time it would take to get a group organised and fight it Vs. just going out to fight it, the time spent would probably equal out. Soloing on SMN isn't as inefficent as you think, I solo 1'ed my WHM head on Whiro in one evenings play. That being said I do things with my ls, friends, randoms, and I have fun/get the job done.


I gotta say that never have I've played a game where there's this much infighting about a choice of playing style.

It's not the playstyle itself, I have no real problem with mage melees, the problem I have is the claim it's the only way to play, it's the only way to keep MP up indefinitely, it's useful everywhere, and my personal favorite, even if you can't melee on a fight the melee staff is still superior to a -perp staff.

Honestly though, even though I have no problem with the playstyle it kind of baffles me(the logic behind it, not how to do it that parts easy). The jobs in this game were designed to fill certain roles, and everyone gets a taste for what roles they like early on, leveling WHM to sub to BLM I figured out prefer support roles, but also liked to do things on my own(which naturally led into SMN). It makes little sense to me to to take up a job get it to cap and gear it for something it doesn't excel at. Take melee SMNs they like to get their hands dirty and fight alongside their pets, the goal is now max damage, which SMN isn't great at and there are plenty of jobs that do this much better. Three of these other jobs are even pet jobs, one of which you don't even need to completely give up the support angle(PUP), why not pick up one of these when your goal is to play their style of gameplay?

[Soranika]

I don't know how to answer that question. With current job repertoire, I often wonder why I didn't make a Taru Taru. lol But I guess race impact on a job isn't as large as how you play it.

I get what you're saying though. I melee for giggles on my own time and I know SMNs are horrible at hate management when out damaging their avatars and are not viable as DD themselves. But I guess whatever float people's boat.

[Tannlore]

Honestly though, even though I have no problem with the playstyle it kind of baffles me(the logic behind it, not how to do it that parts easy). The jobs in this game were designed to fill certain roles, and everyone gets a taste for what roles they like early on, leveling WHM to sub to BLM I figured out prefer support roles, but also liked to do things on my own(which naturally led into SMN). It makes little sense to me to to take up a job get it to cap and gear it for something it doesn't excel at. Take melee SMNs they like to get their hands dirty and fight alongside their pets, the goal is now max damage, which SMN isn't great at and there are plenty of jobs that do this much better. Three of these other jobs are even pet jobs, one of which you don't even need to completely give up the support angle(PUP), why not pick up one of these when your goal is to play their style of gameplay?


I'll answer that one. Why don't you play these other jobs you suggested then? It is because you love to play summoner. Not black mage, not puppetmaster, not warrior, not dark knight, not dragoon, etc. Melee smn are of the mindset of maximizing their damage within their job limits and why not? Why wouldn't you want to optimize your damage however you could?

I have pup/drg/drk/blm 90 when I want that kind of play style for damage I will switch to them. But that isn't the case in point and that's what is being lost here in all the epeen-testosterone-juvenile-nonsense that's frankly ruining topics on this board.

There is ...nothing... wrong with taking your staff out and swinging it around besides your avatars. (and there is ... nothing... wrong with standing back either honestly). Yes, you should use your brain and do it with some amount of thought. Don't go taking your staff out on an AoE happy mob or one with a hate rest move where you'll be tanking and quickly in the ground. But other things? Your damage only adds to your avatars, why wouldn't you want to do this? I've never understood the resistance to this. This behavior baffles me the most. As the mages who CAN do this, why don't we?

Our emp staff, which I have us amazing for just this very thing. Why would SE give us this if not for this purpose. A level 3 aftermath and pretty much nothing is living for long at all that isn't an nm. AA/RR/Apoc one Blood Pact, three swings from me (at most) and any regular mob... no matter what the con in aby is gone. I Swing and hit for over 700+ dmg with that monster (and no I don't tank after letting my avatar BP first....really people, have brains about this. Let the avatar do the tanking). If you have trouble managing your hate vs. your avatar go out there and learn how avatar hate management works and stop thinking its some fickle unknown process. Enmity - merits/gear and avatar/pet enmity+ gear works wonnnddeerrs as a start to ending your pet enmity woes (you aren't using favor are you? That messes up enmity btw).

The animosity that comes from people wanting to stand back or join in with their pets needs to stop. It's two different play styles that have been around since I first played back when this game came out. The JPs were doing these two types of things too. Dallas and other NA players weren't the first people to take out their staves against monsters, no matter how much they may think they were.

[Soranika]

If you have trouble managing your hate vs. your avatar go out there and learn how avatar hate management works and stop thinking its some fickle unknown process.
Assault > Blood Pact: Rage > wait for a few more hits before going in > ??? > Profit?
Oh and don't merit STR like an idiot like I did?

Side note: Melee SMN work in Abyssea because we can fall on atma as a crutch. It's actually fairly easy to out DD your avatar if you have a high DMG staff (around 55+) if you're not careful. Most times when I do that, I do more damage than the other DD in the party. But a lot of them are also gimp so... Guess this was a bad comparison.

[Tannlore]

Assault > Blood Pact: Rage > wait for a few more hits before going in > ??? > Profit?
Oh and don't merit STR like an idiot like I did?

Side note: Melee SMN work in Abyssea because we can fall on atma as a crutch. It's actually fairly easy to out DD your avatar if you have a high DMG staff (around 55+) if you're not careful. Most times when I do that, I do more damage than the other DD in the party. But a lot of them are also gimp so... Guess this was a bad comparison.

I have full STR merits myself actually and have little trouble with this at all (did it for drk and drg). Do you have full enmity merits?

Outside of abyssea I swing at 500+ with a level 3 aftermath going and after a Bloodpact my avatar is still tanking. Then again, outside of abyssea, not many things LIVE after 1 blood pact at all to begin with. :D

But all this still brings to point: Why not melee with your avatar if it isn't detrimental or not your "play style". Again, nothing at all wrong with it not being your play style.

[Soranika]

If I remember correctly, I've left my merits at STR +5, MND +3. I've been thinking of changing full merits on INT or CHR. Depends on if I start spending more time on SCH or on DNC... I'm REALLY loving DNC at the moment. And - enmity max merits.

I haven't ever out DD my avatars (with the exception of Carby... poor Carby) outside of abyssea with my physical trial staves. But inside, gotta let them do their business and have words with the mobs before I enter. Like I mentioned in my other thread, I 'grew up' being a melee summoner on my down time when looking for a party. I didn't kite bombs to level, which probably explains why I'm only decent at it and not spectacular like most SMN should be.

Unlike the other people, the only reason why I see SMN as intangible support DD along side their avatars in parties is because they're squishy (But really... DRKs aren't any better) and are basically TP feeders when both avatar and SMN are on the mob. A bad thing when facing something with a lot of TP abilities. It's just a personal observation that while now great DD, SMN CAN make pretty decent damage with the new staves and good equipment as long as they maintain their wits about them. But for dangerous marks, it is better for a SMN to stay out of the fray with the other mages and support casters.

[Tannlore]

Unlike the other people, the only reason why I see SMN as intangible support DD along side their avatars in parties is because they're squishy (But really... DRKs aren't any better) and are basically TP feeders when both avatar and SMN are on the mob. A bad thing when facing something with a lot of TP abilities. It's just a personal observation that while now great DD, SMN CAN make pretty decent damage with the new staves and good equipment as long as they maintain their wits about them. But for dangerous marks, it is better for a SMN to stay out of the fray with the other mages and support casters.


Yes and no, and this is where the problem for everyone lies. People like to slap on an extreme tone for this: "But for dangerous marks, it is better for a SMN to stay out of the fray with the other mages and support casters"This isn't always the case and is really dependent on the situation. I know this isn't what you mean, but I pulled it out of context because that's what some people like to do when they read on here. They will scan a post, find one sentence that rips'em off and go to town on it.

In most party situations I'll be fighting BIG nms that are usually non-solos for me. In these cases, no I will not be out there swinging my staff at the mob because they 99.9% of the time have AoEs. Also, in a party situation I differ from the pure meele smn meat heads in that I believe smn is in a support role there and should in those cases stand back and help support while their avatar does it's job. In my LS though this usually means I'm the one tanking with my avatar so I definitely do not want to go in there and do anything to tangle up enmity in any sort of way. Believe it or not, There are lots of times my Hvergelmir isn't on my back.... esp. in these situations.

In solo situations, where most melee smn will melee typically (most, not all.. Dallas has said he likes to jump in even during groups for instance) is where I'll take my staff out and wail on things till the cows come home. But like I said earlier, depends on if it's AoE happy or a hate resetter. TP move spammer doesn't bother me too much if I know that A) my avatar will survive and B) I can kill is fast enough. Just have to use brains when it comes down to it like you said.

[Dallas]

The animosity, Tann, will never end until SMN community accepts that a backline SMN is a subset of melee SMN. Moving to the backline is a conscious decision to ignore half the job's potential. There are a few reasons that are acceptable, but anywhere a WAR can melee, everyone can melee.

"I can AFK" is just complete incompetence and deserves to be run out of the forum.

[Malamasala]

I wouldn't say that Dallas. It is rather "Everywhere a taru can melee, a SMN can melee". A big bulky galka WAR would survive things my SMN can only dream of.

[Tannlore]

I don't remember anyone saying, "I can AFK" as what they wanted to do. They said I'll back away and let the avatar do the work and not melee: There is a difference there.

I agree on your point about the animosity, but the approach you're using is way too heavy handed and only fostering more and more animosity. Diplomacy was never your strong point :p I reiterate my earlier post: Proof.

Nothing will shut a room of people up faster than good solid indisputable proof. Well at the very least it'll shut'em up a little bit. As it stands you're profile is unlinked to your summoner, there's no proof you have any gear you say you have or you can actually do what you say you can. You've posted no data, no videos, no... nothing. So it looks like you're hiding an aweful lot and just... trolling for the sake of trolling. You're surprised this is the reaction from people?

[Dallas]

This thread has a post advocating AFK for magian trials. Don't look for it, it was said in defense of underskilled staff, the same guy who was qualified to say Hver tickled mobs because he tried Full Swing once with Fay.

I have to be heavy handed. These skulls are thick. There's no reason for data. They aren't really interested.

I'm probably just going to work on Mala's fear of death. Mala deserves to have fun.

[Malamasala]

I'm probably just going to work on Mala's fear of death. Mala deserves to have fun.

I deserve 17 KKK fangs and 50 walrus stuffs and I can join in on the fun.

[Razushu]

I don't remember anyone saying, "I can AFK" as what they wanted to do. They said I'll back away and let the avatar do the work and not melee: There is a difference there.

I agree on your point about the animosity, but the approach you're using is way too heavy handed and only fostering more and more animosity. Diplomacy was never your strong point :p I reiterate my earlier post: Proof.

Nothing will shut a room of people up faster than good solid indisputable proof. Well at the very least it'll shut'em up a little bit. As it stands you're profile is unlinked to your summoner, there's no proof you have any gear you say you have or you can actually do what you say you can. You've posted no data, no videos, no... nothing. So it looks like you're hiding an aweful lot and just... trolling for the sake of trolling. You're surprised this is the reaction from people?

I think he was referring to this post:


So in choosing to fight an EP for a mindless trial that can complete semi-afk over DCs for the same trial in Abyssea that I could also kill semi-afk you feel some kind of gulf in skill opens up? It's funny because the only real difference here isn't skill(there's no skill involved in killing trash mobs), it's actually that you have a desperate need to seem right and will try any argument to push that notion. You kill DC and call it skill, whereas I kill EPs because they die faster, and save my discussions of skill for when, talking about soloing NMs.

But once again he displays either an unwillingness or just plain inability to comprehend simple written english. What was a statement about how easy it is to kill <EMs solo for a trial, was partially read at best and intrepretted in a way that is negative to non-melee mages.

[Razushu]

This thread has a post advocating AFK for magian trials. Don't look for it, it was said in defense of underskilled staff, the same guy who was qualified to say Hver tickled mobs because he tried Full Swing once with Fay.

I have to be heavy handed. These skulls are thick. There's no reason for data. They aren't really interested.

I'm probably just going to work on Mala's fear of death. Mala deserves to have fun.

ITT: TotM content is now hard.

Unless you're fighting NMs for upgrade items TotM can be completed half concisous at best.

[Tannlore]

I deserve 17 KKK fangs and 50 walrus stuffs and I can join in on the fun.

*puts an early winter festival present under mala's tree*

[Dallas]

I deserve 17 KKK fangs and 50 walrus stuffs and I can join in on the fun.

Solve the Peiste then you're home free.

[Korpg]

This thread has a post advocating AFK for magian trials. Don't look for it, it was said in defense of underskilled staff, the same guy who was qualified to say Hver tickled mobs because he tried Full Swing once with Fay.

I have to be heavy handed. These skulls are thick. There's no reason for data. They aren't really interested.

I'm probably just going to work on Mala's fear of death. Mala deserves to have fun.

Oh, but we are interested in data. Not your made up fuzzy math numbers, but actual data you can back and can be emulated by anyone. Or are you still stating that you can out DD an Ukon WAR? I would love to see you try.

[Tannlore]

Oh, but we are interested in data. Not your made up fuzzy math numbers, but actual data you can back and can be emulated by anyone. Or are you still stating that you can out DD an Ukon WAR? I would love to see you try.

Out DD a Ukon Warrior? Sure I can do that!
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.......

Wait.. what?

[Korpg]

Got an emp staff yet?

[Razushu]

Out DD a Ukon Warrior? Sure I can do that!
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Wait.. what?

Dallas has claimed that before(though he won't admit it now), now he just implies that the only reason WAR is a great DD is because it recieves buffs in a party, but SMN doesn't.

[Korpg]

Dallas has claimed that before(though he won't admit it now), now he just implies that the only reason WAR is a great DD is because it recieves buffs in a party, but SMN doesn't.

Even without party buffs, a WAR with Ukon will do at least 2, at most 4 times more damage than a buffed SMN. Depending on the gear and skill of the WAR though.

[Tannlore]

Got an emp staff yet?

Why yes, yes I do actually. :) I'll find ya on kingnobody and show ya sometime.

As for out DDing a war... Yeah, no...


Well okay, one that is crappy geared sure. But a Ukon war? No way in hell. I've been with ukon wars (hell my shell has a 90 Bravura war) and there's no way I come close to their dmg. I get hally jollies from my 600+ a swing with a level 3 aftermath going. They get their jollies from 1200+ a swing.


Yeah, I'll get to out DDing a war as a smn right now.... >.>

[Tannlore]

Battle ground: Test server

Operation: Put out or shut it

Participants: All of us smn in the melee debate

Objective: To shut this tiresome argument up for good.

Here it is folks! We can ALL BE TOGETHER right on the test server. Me, Korpg, Dallas, Raz, Mal, Sound, and anyone else who wants to join in. Let's put this nonsense to an end once and for all shall we? No more blah blah blah I Can do this better than a war, or better than this other smn. We can do show each other in real time, right in each other's face!

I'm down, who is in?

[Korpg]

Fine by me, I'll bring a level 95 Ukon too for this.

[Tannlore]

Fine by me, I'll bring a level 95 Ukon too for this.

Oh please do, I do so want to see how a smn can possibly out damage that monster.

Cuz... {I'm interested}

[Razushu]

Battle ground: Test server

Operation: Put out or shut it

Participants: All of us smn in the melee debate

Objective: To shut this tiresome argument up for good.

Here it is folks! We can ALL BE TOGETHER right on the test server. Me, Korpg, Dallas, Raz, Mal, Sound, and anyone else who wants to join in. Let's put this nonsense to an end once and for all shall we? No more blah blah blah I Can do this better than a war, or better than this other smn. We can do show each other in real time, right in each other's face!

I'm down, who is in?

Apparently us Xbox riff raff aren't welcome(j/k).

Funnily enough I had pretty solidly decided to not bother joining the test forum back when it was announced. Then I read your post, and thought wth why not? And now that I can't join it.... I really really want to lol

[Razushu]

Oh please do, I do so want to see how a smn can possibly out damage that monster.

Cuz... {I'm interested}

Happy thoughts and wishing REAL hard.

[Korpg]

Found out a problem about this test server.

It won't be a true test of skill because skill levels are skewed too much to have an accurate showing.

Also, there aren't many EM+ mobs at 95 anymore.

[Tannlore]

Found out a problem about this test server.

It won't be a true test of skill because skill levels are skewed too much to have an accurate showing.

Also, there aren't many EM+ mobs at 95 anymore.

If they can fix it so we can cap out skill levels I'd be happy with this. As for EM+ at 95 there aren't any in the revamps areas? I haven't checked what they con now, but some should.

[Dallas]

Battle ground: Test server

Operation: Put out or shut it

Participants: All of us smn in the melee debate

Objective: To shut this tiresome argument up for good.

Here it is folks! We can ALL BE TOGETHER right on the test server. Me, Korpg, Dallas, Raz, Mal, Sound, and anyone else who wants to join in. Let's put this nonsense to an end once and for all shall we? No more blah blah blah I Can do this better than a war, or better than this other smn. We can do show each other in real time, right in each other's face!

I'm down, who is in?

Too late. Half of these people are no longer in the melee SMN discussion.

[Korpg]

Too late. Half of these people are no longer in the melee SMN discussion.

ITT: Dallas is too scared to be proven wrong. Because he knows he will be proven wrong.

[Razushu]

Too late. Half of these people are no longer in the melee SMN discussion.

Funnily enough the only one not involved in the discussion in any real way is you. Btw insults, wild claims and plain faced lies don't count as part of the discussion.